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"draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Evaluation for draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-03 Thread-Index: AQHTx6RrfbPdaFH1TE66yAUqLNkcm6Po6dmAgACtcACABg7pIA== Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 22:28:07 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E1CEE@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E0A39@njmtexg5.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [69.141.203.172] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E1CEEnjmtexg5researc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2018-04-03_09:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 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C (AL)" Cc: Brian Trammell , Nevil Brownlee , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001f3b770568f956cd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] AD Evaluation for draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-03 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 22:36:29 -0000 --0000000000001f3b770568f956cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 5:28 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote: > Inline for the one open issue: > > > > *From:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2018 5:55 PM > *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) > *Cc:* Brian Trammell ; Nevil Brownlee < > n.brownlee@auckland.ac.nz>; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: AD Evaluation for draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-03 > > > > Hi, Al, > > > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:11 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) > wrote: > > Hi Spencer, please see replies in-line. > > > > I have one item below that I'm still not clear on, but I think we are in > sync everywhere else. > > > > Thanks for your review! > > Al > > *[acm] *=E2=80=A6 > > > > I wasn't quite sure what to make of this text: > > > > We further require that if a packet is described as having a "length > > of B octets", then 0 <=3D B <=3D 65535; and if B is the payload length= in > > octets, then B <=3D (65535-IP header size in octets, including any > > Extension Headers). The jumbograms defined in [RFC2675] are not > > covered by this length analysis. > > > > Is the point that jumbograms aren't valid standard-form packets? > > *[acm] * > > No, that IPv6 Jumbograms in 2675 can be eve longer! > > from 2675: > > A "jumbogram" is an IPv6 packet containing a payload longer than > > 65,535 octets. > > Practical MTUs keep all this from becoming a point > > of contention, as we explain. > > > > Right, but what I'm not lacing together is > > > > - I have an IPv6 packet with 65,536 bytes > > - Let's say that It would be a valid standard-form packet if it was one > byte shorter > > - am I understanding that it is not a valid standard-form packet? > > - or is the point that we basically never see IPv6 jumbograms because the= y > would take up at least 40 maximum-length Ethernet packets, so we don't ca= re > whether they would be valid standard-form packets if we ever did see one? > > > > Thanks for clues, > > > > Spencer > > > > *[acm] * > > > > So, I propose that we make the jumbogram sentence end like this: > > > > ... but if the IPv6 Jumbogram Payload Hop-by-Hop Option Header is present= , > > then a packet with corresponding length MUST be considered standard-forme= d. > That is perfectly clear, and I wouldn't have guessed it worked that way in a million years with the previous text ;-) Ship it (at the appropriate time, of course!) Spencer --0000000000001f3b770568f956cd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 5:28 PM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acmorton@at= t.com> wrote:

Inline for the one open issue:

=C2=A0

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailt= o:spence= rdawkins.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 5:55 PM
To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acmorton@att.com>
Cc: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Nevil Brownlee <n.brownlee@auckland.ac.nz>= ; ippm-chairs@iet= f.org; ippm@ietf.org= ; draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: AD Evaluation for draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-03

=C2=A0

Hi, Al,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 11:11 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (= AL) <acmorton@att.= com> wrote:

Hi Spencer, please see replies in-line.=

=C2=A0

I have one item below that I'm still not clear o= n, but I think we are in sync everywhere else.

=C2=A0

Thanks for your review!

Al

[acm] =E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

I wasn't quite sure what to make of this text:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 We further require that if a packet is descri= bed as having a "length

=C2=A0 =C2=A0of B octets", then 0 <=3D B <= ;=3D 65535; and if B is the payload length in

=C2=A0 =C2=A0octets, then B <=3D (65535-IP header= size in octets, including any

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Extension Headers).=C2=A0 The jumbogram= s defined in [RFC2675] are not

=C2=A0 =C2=A0covered by this length analysis.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

Is the point that jumbograms aren't valid standa= rd-form packets?

[acm]

No, that IPv6 Jumbograms in 2675 can be eve lo= nger!

from 2675:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 A "jumbogram" is an IPv6 packet con= taining a payload longer than

=C2=A0=C2=A0 65,535 octets.

Practical MTUs keep all this from becoming a p= oint

of contention, as we explain.=

=C2=A0

Right, but what I'm not lacing together is=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

- I have an IPv6 packet with 65,536 bytes<= /u>

- Let's say that It would be a valid standard-fo= rm packet if it was one byte shorter

- am I understanding that it is not a valid standard= -form packet?

- or is the point that we basically never see IPv6 j= umbograms because they would take up at least 40 maximum-length Ethernet pa= ckets, so we don't care whether they would be valid standard-form packe= ts if we ever did see one?

=C2=A0

Thanks for clues,

=C2=A0

Spencer

=C2=A0

[acm]

=C2=A0

So, I propose that we make the jumbogram sente= nce end like this:

=C2=A0

... but if the IPv6 Jumbogram Payload Hop-by-H= op Option Header is present,

then a packet with corresponding length MUST b= e considered standard-formed.


That is perfectly clear, and I woul= dn't have guessed it worked that way in a million years with the previo= us text ;-)

Ship it (at the appropriate time, of c= ourse!)

Spencer
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(rrahman)" To: Tianran Zhou , "ippm@ietf.org" CC: Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model Thread-Index: AQHTxCvJHF3cBlu8+0uZUmAURD9UnKPhwliwgBFdlAA= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 18:05:36 +0000 Message-ID: <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> References: <0D8CA483-D0E6-429D-B410-F5B1F03F46EE@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.a.0.180210 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.232] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0DFD4B3F0D044353A53A5DA6C53A4E6Cciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iTX6I67tCZsC; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 14:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8E5B12D948; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 14:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id x4so11140697wmh.5; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 14:53:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4tv1eNsPhrLnuohMRcvNCa71XCtSev0YfGBs/9JrJK0=; b=qsmPTolNRiS5ognMF5GRNrs27+QmkAd7i1ccRs44lNFyoQLKM+ior+veA/a1UWlORn 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+ILgFzArIcywTWsYKpFtXBAIGRTJy9UhBnwpVssIU8jdqgCdR0QqN6wcRbE5Ajrp0GlmfTVALhU34dSscCnhA= X-Received: by 10.46.53.11 with SMTP id z11mr14491021ljz.69.1522965180863; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 14:53:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 14:53:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> References: <0D8CA483-D0E6-429D-B410-F5B1F03F46EE@cisco.com> <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 14:53:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" Cc: Tianran Zhou , "ippm@ietf.org" , Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f4f5e80735e49c5aee056920f66c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 21:53:06 -0000 --f4f5e80735e49c5aee056920f66c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tianran, I concur with you and Reshad, using feature is more appropriate in this model. Regards, Greg On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote: > Hi Tianran, > > > > I agree that using feature makes more sense than schema mount in this > model. > > > > Regarding 6087bis, there are quite a few things. Every IETF YANG author > should read the whole doc=E2=80=A6 But Appendix B gives a checklist and A= ppendix C > has a checklist. Section 3.7 has the security considerations and 3.7.1 ha= s > the template for that. > > > > Regards, > > Reshad. > > > > *From: *Tianran Zhou > *Date: *Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 10:04 PM > *To: *"Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "ippm@ietf.org" < > ippm@ietf.org> > *Cc: *Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ > ietf.org" > *Subject: *RE: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model > > > > Hi Reshad, > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > Please see in line. > > > > Cheers, > > Tianran > > > > *From:* Reshad Rahman (rrahman) [mailto:rrahman@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, March 25, 2018 7:24 PM > *To:* Tianran Zhou; ippm@ietf.org > *Cc:* Lizhenbin; draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model > > > > Hi Tianran and Greg, > > > > While schema-mount would work, it is really intended for use-cases where > there is a requirement to add a module in 2 or more locations (e.g. > interfaces at top-level, in LNE and in NI). > > > > [ztr]Yes, that=E2=80=99s what I thought. So I suggested to use =E2=80=9Cf= eature=E2=80=9D so that > the can only support part of the encapsulation types. > > > > I=E2=80=99ve taken a quick look at the model: > > - The =E2=80=9Cenabled=E2=80=9D leaf node under ioam-profiles (via gro= uping ioam-admin-config) > says "When true, IOAM configuration is enabled for the system.". I thi= nk > it=E2=80=99d make more sense if that enabled flag was to enable/disabl= e IOAM > data-plane functionality. > > [ztr]Yes, this is more clear. I will add the words to the document. > > - Would be best to use yang-version 1.1 IMO. > - Please take a look at 6087bis. > > [ztr]Could you please point out what part of the 6087bis I need to pay > attention? And what is not yang 1.1? > > I intended to follow yang 1.1 indeed. J > > > > Regards, > > Reshad. > > > > *From: *ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou < > zhoutianran@huawei.com> > *Date: *Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 3:03 PM > *To: *"ippm@ietf.org" > *Cc: *Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ > ietf.org" > *Subject: *[ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model > > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Thanks Greg to point out the flexibility of sub-profiles on the meeting. > Here I would like to discuss the way to optimize this point for the IOAM > YANG as described in: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang/ > > > > Although, as suggested, schema mount could help to dynamically mount > sub-profiles to the IOAM configuration, IMHO, it may lead to the > fragmentation of the model, I.e., several modules. And I cannot see the > possibility to reuse the sub-profiles, except to this model. > > > > With the same requirement, I would suggest to use =E2=80=9Cfeature=E2=80= =9D to enable the > supported IOAM encapsulation types. And use the =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D = within each > sub-profile to indicate the actual used sub-profile by the instance. > > > > Now four encapsulation types are supported according to the latest IOAM > data specification. We may augment the model with more sub-profiles. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Thanks, > > Tianran > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --f4f5e80735e49c5aee056920f66c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tianran,
I concur with you and Reshad, using featur= e is more appropriate in this model.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) <rrahman@cis= co.com> wrote:

Hi T= ianran,

<= /u>=C2=A0

I ag= ree that using feature makes more sense than schema mount in this model.=

<= /u>=C2=A0

Rega= rding 6087bis, there are quite a few things. Every IETF YANG author should = read the whole doc=E2=80=A6 But Appendix B gives a checklist and Appendix C= has a checklist. Section 3.7 has the security considerations and 3.7.1 has the template for that.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Rega= rds,

Resh= ad.

<= /u>=C2=A0

From= : Tianran Zhou <= zhoutianran@hua= wei.com>
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 10:04 PM
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>, "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@iet= f.org" <draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model<= u>

=C2=A0

Hi Reshad,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your comments.=

Please see in line.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Tianran

=C2=A0

From: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) [mailto:rrahman@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 7:24 PM
To: Tianran Zhou; ippm@ietf.org
Cc: Lizhenbin; draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model<= u>

=C2=A0

Hi T= ianran and Greg,

=C2= =A0

Whil= e schema-mount would work, it is really intended for use-cases where there = is a requirement to add a module in 2 or more locations (e.g. interfaces at= top-level, in LNE and in NI).

=C2=A0

[ztr]Yes, that=E2=80=99s what I thought. So I = suggested to use =E2=80=9Cfeature=E2=80=9D so that the can only support par= t of the encapsulation types.

=C2=A0

I=E2= =80=99ve taken a quick look at the model:

  • The= =E2=80=9Cenabled=E2=80=9D leaf node under ioam-profiles (via grouping ioam-admin-config) says= "When true, IOAM configuration is enabled for the system.". I th= ink it=E2=80=99d make more sense if that enabled flag was to enable/disable= IOAM data-plane functionality.

[ztr]Yes, this is more clear. I will add the w= ords to the document.

  • Wou= ld be best to use yang-version 1.1 IMO.
  • Please take = a look at 6087bis.

[ztr]Could you please point out what part of t= he 6087bis I need to pay attention? And what is not yang 1.1?

I intended to follow yang 1.1 indeed. J=

=C2= =A0

Rega= rds,

Resh= ad.

=C2= =A0

From= : ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 3:03 PM
To: "ippm@ie= tf.org" <ipp= m@ietf.org>
Cc: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>, "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@iet= f.org" <draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model

=C2=A0

= Hi Folks,

=C2=A0

Thanks Greg to point out = the flexibility of sub-profiles on the meeting. Here I would like to discus= s the way to optimize this point for the IOAM YANG as described in:<= u>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang/<= /span>

=C2=A0

Although, as suggested, s= chema mount could help to dynamically mount sub-profiles to the IOAM config= uration, IMHO, it may lead to the fragmentation of the model, I.e., several modules. And I cannot see the possibility to reuse the sub-profiles, excep= t to this model.

=C2=A0

With the same requirement= , I would suggest to use =E2=80=9Cfeature=E2=80=9D to enable the supported = IOAM encapsulation types. And use the =E2=80=9Cenable=E2=80=9D within each = sub-profile to indicate the actual used sub-profile by the instance.

=C2=A0

Now four encapsulation ty= pes are supported according to the latest IOAM data specification. We may a= ugment the model with more sub-profiles.

=C2=A0

Thoughts?

=C2=A0

Thanks,<= /u>

Tianran<= /u>


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--f4f5e80735e49c5aee056920f66c-- From nobody Thu Apr 5 15:34:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC6B1267BB; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 15:34:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqnJ1dsV9152; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 15:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x22b.google.com (mail-pl0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08FA9120454; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 15:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id s10-v6so19359042plp.0; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 15:34:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=3Ovt8HYTJajWAaG1GHwPGzO5z6K9+zy1A7IXxgmk6wk=; b=LedGcZwcm7mUBcDd9lX2ubfjG0x0J1maXBvV9nymdWCtjxSjLyk1TqFnRRtFuUpilP 4COrE8Vso8qsDJeKjQai/lxhSa/9bf7iTbxVf+XaojbiqiSOAoWGcGaGmgztEExgiqi5 x/BkM0MEdWkEVxAb9c2HRiSoMvKPykFGlEIXVsGruZioMaYv26W8VV2m36GhYndyexME kDeQMNitVP1GlTm4NtQED0WZRycxCJw6HuezpmdFHM7Nwxk0I3H5Sv8PeQwWqukeBwme PkCTOpQgxkVgUaMXnHKW+4OgGPVyQ7wshDnOXURR5POYV+yAYn2lw3JryC3HPu/JEe5n MDlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=3Ovt8HYTJajWAaG1GHwPGzO5z6K9+zy1A7IXxgmk6wk=; b=Safaxo8VqledJymJB7kNZB5OVOnULU4wgtTWjnN5/zjSuLaVQGLqPzbVw4cQ6bmn5L yXu3uIa6GRKV9kiM0f/k5IiSGn9wHYy3fO0dRhHeuwWWlbtZOZWzH562hzLVOy41c82+ cKzpoAqgKJ6gBSggE7ABNEA8ogRpW2YsSWQOlV0irDA9nlYCacVXZemKKTXOdva201r3 EeMjUj2wp/WQqk/BeAW8y6/eHUq5CWchxTcD9CvLjI11CRyBFpFpXNrfQSjLlKwG1DfN rPDGcjuXCwpVOgd0vhEal2YvwOgDuZhsG7goA/TO2aTlQU4oafuPf+HOf67pOjH60U0w Usqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GcKVDRKmYeB6Q5Ay+9Z+jwtLck1PuZYTLUUpM6mLVF1hxwrEnU m94D4rFwNtivkCEWrJkmStuzwXT5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+anEASuCZGJ7XlWuhSdBXDc0MXhEk/lEQKk+dvIoXR4zCuBR9jnyb55Hl7vALY4l1qRFxunA== X-Received: by 10.101.98.90 with SMTP id q26mr16358759pgv.113.1522967692570; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 15:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:d913:2ee:eecf:bdec? ([2601:647:4700:1280:d913:2ee:eecf:bdec]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l26sm18146287pfj.70.2018.04.05.15.34.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Apr 2018 15:34:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: <7BD03011-D417-49D7-85C9-D8EB0A8EA651@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BA1D1920-2FB0-44B5-900A-0152649FFE33" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 15:34:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Nalini Elkins , ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Brian Trammell References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-06 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 22:34:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BA1D1920-2FB0-44B5-900A-0152649FFE33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Spencer, Here is the response I got from one of the co-authors, Ruth, on the = question below. > On Mar 29, 2018, at 9:45 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani = wrote: >=20 >> I'm not questioning this text, >>=20 >> If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, = then >> the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the >> Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large >> number of test sessions are currently active on that device. >>=20 >> but I am trying to understand what type of problems you're thinking = of (delays in starting testing from the Control-Client device, because = the Session-Reflector is heavily loaded? Interference with current test = sessions? Or something else), and find myself guessing. Well it only makes sense in the context of the previous paragraphs =E2=80=93= The whole text is given below: Instances of twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession are indexed = by a session identifier (SID). This is a value that is auto-allocated by = the Server as test session requests are received, and communicated back = to the client in the SID field of the Accept-Session field. When attempting to retrieve operational data for active test sessions = from a Session-Reflector device, the user will not know what sessions = are currently active on that device, or what SIDs have been = auto-allocated for these test sessions. If the user has network access = to the Control-Client device, then it is possible to read the data for = this session under twampClient:twampCtrlSession:twampSessionRequest and = obtain the SID.The user may then use this SID value as an index to = retrieve an individual twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession = instance on the Session-Reflector device. =E2=80=A6. (and then the final paragraph.) If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large number of test sessions are currently active on that device. =20 =20 So what the description as a WHOLE (including the previous paragraphs) = is saying, is that if you want to read operational data for a SINGLE = specific test session that is in progress on the server, you have a = problem. Test sessions as configured on the client have a NAME to = identify them, but an instance of this test session in execution has a = dynamically allocated test Session ID =E2=80=93 and this is the ID you = use for retrieving the OPERATIONAL status data for that test session on = the Server while it is running. You can=E2=80=99t use the test session = name to retrieve operational data for this test session on the server = =E2=80=93 the test session name is not part of any TWAMP message = exchange, it=E2=80=99s something we use on the client to give a key for = a particular test session configuration (on the client) =E2=80=93 so the = server has no knowledge of the name. The only thing the server does = know (and this is what it indexes its operational data for test sessions = in progress by) is the session ID that was dynamically allocated (by the = server itself as it accepted this incoming test session (and which IS = communicated back to the client in a TWAMP message exchange). So, what does the user do if he wants to retrieve operational data for a = single specific test session from the SERVER while that test session is = running? He doesn=E2=80=99t know what SID the server dynamically = allocated to his particular test session. There are 2 options. The FIRST 2 paragraphs describe how you can go to = the CLIENT, retrieve operational data for the test session on the CLIENT = using the test session NAME =E2=80=93 and part of that operational data = will be the dynamically allocated SID for that session (which the server = communicated back to the client during the message exchange). You can = then go to the server and use that SID as a key to retrieve the = individual record for that test session=E2=80=99s operational data on = the server. OR (And this is what the individual paragraph you were quoting was)=20 IF you have no access to the client, then you=E2=80=99re screwed, = because you don=E2=80=99t know the dynamically allocated SID for your = session=E2=80=99s name, and you can=E2=80=99t go to the client and get = it. So all you can do is effectively do a get/get next of ALL the = operational data records for all test sessions currently in progress on = the server, and then try to locate the session you actually wanted to = look at, based on other information (e.g. IP addresses, UDP ports, etc) = to identify it. And this may be problematic if a large number of test = sessions are currently active on that (server) device. Because you = might have 3000 active sessions on that server device and now you=E2=80=99= re going to have to sift through all 3000 returned records looking for = the one you were actually interested in. =20 Hope this makes sense! --Apple-Mail=_BA1D1920-2FB0-44B5-900A-0152649FFE33 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Spencer,

Here is the response I got from one of the co-authors, Ruth, = on the question below.

On Mar 29, 2018, at 9:45 PM, = Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not questioning this text,

  If the user has no network = access to the Control-Client device, then
   the only option is to retrieve all = test-session instances from the
  =  Session-Reflector device.  This could be problematic if a = large
   number of test = sessions are currently active on that device.

but = I am trying to understand what type of problems you're thinking of = (delays in starting testing from the Control-Client device, because the = Session-Reflector is heavily loaded? Interference with current test = sessions? Or something else), and find myself = guessing.


Well it only makes sense in the context of the previous = paragraphs =E2=80=93 The whole text is given below:

Instances of twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession = are indexed by a session identifier (SID). This is a value that is = auto-allocated by the Server as test session requests are received, and = communicated back to the client in the SID field of the Accept-Session = field.
When attempting to retrieve operational data for active test = sessions from a Session-Reflector device, the user will not know what = sessions are currently active on that device, or what SIDs have been = auto-allocated for these test sessions. If the user has network access = to the Control-Client device, then it is possible to read the data for = this session under twampClient:twampCtrlSession:twampSessionRequest and = obtain the SID.The user may then use this SID value as an index to = retrieve an individual twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession = instance on the Session-Reflector device.
=E2=80=A6. (and then the final = paragraph.)
  If the user has no network access to the = Control-Client device, then
   the only = option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the
   Session-Reflector device.  This could be = problematic if a large
   number of = test sessions are currently active on that device.
 
 
So what = the description as a WHOLE (including the previous paragraphs) is = saying, is that if you want to read operational data for a SINGLE = specific test session that is in progress on the server, you have a = problem.  Test sessions as configured on the client have a NAME to = identify them, but an instance of this test session in execution has a = dynamically allocated test Session ID =E2=80=93 and this is the ID you = use for retrieving the OPERATIONAL status data for that test session on = the Server while it is running.  You can=E2=80=99t use the test = session name to retrieve operational data for this test session on the = server =E2=80=93 the test session name is not part of any TWAMP message = exchange, it=E2=80=99s something we use on the client to give a key for = a particular test session configuration (on the client) =E2=80=93 so the = server has no knowledge of the name.   The only thing the = server does know (and this is what it indexes its operational data for = test sessions in progress by) is the session ID that was dynamically = allocated (by the server itself as it accepted this incoming test = session  (and which IS communicated back to the client in a TWAMP = message exchange).
So, what does the user do if he wants = to retrieve operational data for a single specific test session from the = SERVER while that test session is running?  He doesn=E2=80=99t know = what SID the server dynamically allocated to his particular test = session.
There are 2 options.  The FIRST 2 paragraphs = describe how you can go to the CLIENT, retrieve operational data for the = test session on the CLIENT using the test session NAME =E2=80=93 and = part of that operational data will be the dynamically allocated SID for = that session (which the server communicated back to the client during = the message exchange).  You can then go to the server and use that = SID as a key to retrieve the individual  record for that test = session=E2=80=99s operational data on the server.
OR  = (And this is what the individual paragraph you were quoting = was) 
IF you have no access to the client, then = you=E2=80=99re screwed, because you don=E2=80=99t know the dynamically = allocated SID for your session=E2=80=99s name, and you can=E2=80=99t go = to the client and get it. So all you can do is effectively do a get/get = next of ALL the operational data records for all test sessions currently =  in progress on the server, and then try to locate the session you = actually wanted to look at, based on other information (e.g. IP = addresses, UDP ports, etc) to identify it.  And this may be problematic if a large number of test sessions are currently = active on that (server) device.  = Because you might have 3000 active sessions on that server device and = now you=E2=80=99re going to have to sift through all 3000 returned = records looking for the one you were actually interested in.
 
Hope this = makes sense!

= --Apple-Mail=_BA1D1920-2FB0-44B5-900A-0152649FFE33-- From nobody Thu Apr 5 17:30:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4689612E85E; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:30:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1R9g0uqQWQsm; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x232.google.com (mail-yb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5C3612E858; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x232.google.com with SMTP id k1-v6so6495226yba.5; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 17:30:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hZykhY6LNsaO9oZjAVn7h8cdBHB4m9kosaJR8OYUui4=; b=RvOXlIqdm1MnwuOM4AZFc4lQAhZnjlRKUBTytttREoRpP/IxfJusUDb0z3hPKmBPIE 5gtoP6LbdkmOQmrfWmZZ6+PnNHyISr2PcxV8fMYXyg8qhqsGRZs/MNjiVre99MsIf4RP bMCIzg95SQVlkPNcxkGu4XOkY4bwjI5MTWMJgkQaGwWR8dWtYOCdVRym89FMhetdbnZi d4m7vq8lch56CqWOBGfrwLjOxAYMi+4EKN0IS5LfGzl/51jRssEFmZsj251curUv47cF lo0BzW+l5aWTNxpBn8Fy9CLRWxCmt67hwQyXTKvZzBe+E5pMt0s4wyfliJqTVndRsJBS a4Yg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hZykhY6LNsaO9oZjAVn7h8cdBHB4m9kosaJR8OYUui4=; b=uC0zQrOkT0MxOF2pscghtpF2abQydsBxy4XYbwfZr98INsJ8SZEO2X/r2Wzr7aD2rF CmsHYnOAPgVyjQPmmi/tBwD7Q0MFkPv3wLxH8b6FVgQCnyd/qzguXQF0dCACmhFW9FS3 uIU0lZII9+dzZ3xabtcLg71Vzsg1ayif9YJOT9uK0DuqF5dom90SgLcr8EfSJ++pMRWI RCykd+0RjlpQenxqJ7wKsFWhK1Br6/Omu6rH2PpFQarVxu81tNnbyGeC2QszFNrUXhHy gI2LTLd+r3pqXlxRPi9D0nYFuIqQ34ssbwf8QPLoaOcsLjs1nv7IVFBwjIpw+T7NypXI cE5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HihoGcLZUcskJY8OCWAsybIwkWS3H4YaCV5HDJ3HlodF/AlKCS DXoXb79Xk7IrUAEDjFs2wIRpjuvUcxQVtYjj0mg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48lDuCl7maVsgOwN5WidU834SWskT0DIJZKwOnXUT3YKy2dil9bLXHqDBrkIvIoC/llo708SGf4rJK1N4qIrdI= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d112:: with SMTP id i18-v6mr13916226ybg.44.1522974654933; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 17:30:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a25:e757:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:30:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7BD03011-D417-49D7-85C9-D8EB0A8EA651@gmail.com> References: <7BD03011-D417-49D7-85C9-D8EB0A8EA651@gmail.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 19:30:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: Brian Trammell , Nalini Elkins , ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f2f100569232bea" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-06 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 00:30:58 -0000 --0000000000004f2f100569232bea Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Manesh, On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > Spencer, > > Here is the response I got from one of the co-authors, Ruth, on the > question below. > > On Mar 29, 2018, at 9:45 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani > wrote: > > I'm not questioning this text, > > If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then > the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the > Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large > number of test sessions are currently active on that device. > > but I am trying to understand what type of problems you're thinking of > (delays in starting testing from the Control-Client device, because the > Session-Reflector is heavily loaded? Interference with current test > sessions? Or something else), and find myself guessing. > > > > Well it only makes sense in the context of the previous paragraphs =E2=80= =93 The > whole text is given below: > > Instances of twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession are indexed > by a session identifier (SID). This is a value that is auto-allocated by > the Server as test session requests are received, and communicated back t= o > the client in the SID field of the Accept-Session field. > When attempting to retrieve operational data for active test sessions fro= m > a Session-Reflector device, the user will not know what sessions are > currently active on that device, or what SIDs have been auto-allocated fo= r > these test sessions. If the user has network access to the Control-Client > device, then it is possible to read the data for this session under > twampClient:twampCtrlSession:twampSessionRequest and obtain the SID.The > user may then use this SID value as an index to retrieve an individual > twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession instance on the > Session-Reflector device. > =E2=80=A6. (and then the final paragraph.) > * If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then* > * the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the* > * Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large* > * number of test sessions are currently active on that device.* > > > So what the description as a WHOLE (including the previous paragraphs) is > saying, is that if you want to read operational data for a SINGLE specifi= c > test session that is in progress on the server, you have a problem. Test > sessions as configured on the client have a NAME to identify them, but an > instance of this test session in execution has a dynamically allocated te= st > Session ID =E2=80=93 and this is the ID you use for retrieving the OPERAT= IONAL > status data for that test session on the Server while it is running. You > can=E2=80=99t use the test session name to retrieve operational data for = this test > session on the server =E2=80=93 the test session name is not part of any = TWAMP > message exchange, it=E2=80=99s something we use on the client to give a k= ey for a > particular test session configuration (on the client) =E2=80=93 so the se= rver has > no knowledge of the name. The only thing the server does know (and this > is what it indexes its operational data for test sessions in progress by) > is the session ID that was dynamically allocated (by the server itself as > it accepted this incoming test session (and which IS communicated back t= o > the client in a TWAMP message exchange). > So, what does the user do if he wants to retrieve operational data for a > single specific test session from the SERVER while that test session is > running? He doesn=E2=80=99t know what SID the server dynamically allocat= ed to his > particular test session. > There are 2 options. The FIRST 2 paragraphs describe how you can go to > the CLIENT, retrieve operational data for the test session on the CLIENT > using the test session NAME =E2=80=93 and part of that operational data w= ill be the > dynamically allocated SID for that session (which the server communicated > back to the client during the message exchange). You can then go to the > server and use that SID as a key to retrieve the individual record for > that test session=E2=80=99s operational data on the server. > OR (And this is what the individual paragraph you were quoting was) > IF you have no access to the client, then you=E2=80=99re screwed, because= you > don=E2=80=99t know the dynamically allocated SID for your session=E2=80= =99s name, and you > can=E2=80=99t go to the client and get it. So all you can do is effective= ly do a > get/get next of ALL the operational data records for all test sessions > currently in progress on the server, and then try to locate the session > you actually wanted to look at, based on other information (e.g. IP > addresses, UDP ports, etc) to identify it. And this may be *problematic > if a large number of test sessions are currently active on that *(server) > * device*. Because you might have 3000 active sessions on that server > device and now you=E2=80=99re going to have to sift through all 3000 retu= rned > records looking for the one you were actually interested in. > > Hope this makes sense! > I REALLY appreciate this explanation. I had foolishly assumed that you were worried about the load on the server device, but you're actually worried about the load on the user who is LOOKING at the server device. Makes perfect sense, with your explanation. If I might make a suggestion (at the "Comment, so do the right thing" level), perhaps OLD If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large number of test sessions are currently active on that device. NEW If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the Session-Reflector device, and then pick out specific test-session instances of interest to the user. This could be problematic if a large number of test sessions are currently active on that device. would be helpful. But do the right thing, of course. Because that would be the right thing to do. Spencer --0000000000004f2f100569232bea Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Manesh,

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjet= hanandani@gmail.com> wrote:
Spencer,

Here is the response I got from one of the co-authors, Ruth, on th= e question below.

On Mar 29, 2018, at 9:45 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com= > wrote:

I'm not questioning this text,

=C2=A0=C2=A0If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the only option is to retrieve all = test-session instances from the
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Session-Reflector device.=C2=A0 This could be problematic if a large
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of test sessions are curre= ntly active on that device.

but I am trying to understand what type of problems y= ou're thinking of (delays in starting testing from the Control-Client d= evice, because the Session-Reflector is heavily loaded? Interference with c= urrent test sessions? Or something else), and find myself guessing.


Well it only makes sense in the context of the previous para= graphs =E2=80=93 The whole text is given below:
When attempting to retrieve operational data for active t= est sessions from a Session-Reflector device, the user will not know what s= essions are currently active on that device, or what SIDs have been auto-al= located for these test sessions. If the user has network access to the Cont= rol-Client device, then it is possible to read the data for this session un= der twampClient:twampCtrlSession:twampSessionRequest and obtain the SI= D.The user may then use this SID value as an index to retrieve an individua= l twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession instance on the Sess= ion-Reflector device.
=E2=80=A6. (and then the= final paragraph.)
= =C2=A0 If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the only option is to ret= rieve all test-session instances from the
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Reflector device.=C2=A0 This could be problematic i= f a large
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of test s= essions are currently active on that device.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
So what the description as a WHOLE (including the previous paragraph= s) is saying, is that if you want to read operational data for a SINGLE spe= cific test session that is in progress on the server, you have a problem.= =C2=A0 Test sessions as configured on the client have a NAME to identify th= em, but an instance of this test session in execution has a dynamically all= ocated test Session ID =E2=80=93 and this is the ID you use for retrieving = the OPERATIONAL status data for that test session on the Server while it is= running.=C2=A0 You can=E2=80=99t use the test session name to retrieve ope= rational data for this test session on the server =E2=80=93 the test sessio= n name is not part of any TWAMP message exchange, it=E2=80=99s something we= use on the client to give a key for a particular test session configuratio= n (on the client) =E2=80=93 so the server has no knowledge of the name.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 The only thing the server does know (and this is what it indexes = its operational data for test sessions in progress by) is the session ID th= at was dynamically allocated (by the server itself as it accepted this inco= ming test session=C2=A0 (and which IS communicated back to the client in a = TWAMP message exchange).
So, what does the user do if he wants to retrie= ve operational data for a single specific test session from the SERVER whil= e that test session is running?=C2=A0 He doesn=E2=80=99t know what SID the = server dynamically allocated to his particular test session.
There are 2= options.=C2=A0 The FIRST 2 paragraphs describe how you can go to the CLIEN= T, retrieve operational data for the test session on the CLIENT using the t= est session NAME =E2=80=93 and part of that operational data will be the dy= namically allocated SID for that session (which the server communicated bac= k to the client during the message exchange).=C2=A0 You can then go to the = server and use that SID as a key to retrieve the individual =C2=A0record fo= r that test session=E2=80=99s operational data on the server.
OR=C2=A0 (= And this is what the individual paragraph you were quoting was)=C2=A0
IF= you have no access to the client, then you=E2=80=99re screwed, because you= don=E2=80=99t know the dynamically allocated SID for your session=E2=80=99= s name, and you can=E2=80=99t go to the client and get it. So all you can d= o is effectively do a get/get next of ALL the operational data records for = all test sessions currently =C2=A0in progress on the server, and then try t= o locate the session you actually wanted to look at, based on other informa= tion (e.g. IP addresses, UDP ports, etc) to identify it.=C2=A0 And this may= be=C2=A0problematic if a large number of test sessions are currently ac= tive on that=C2=A0(server)=C2=A0device.=C2=A0 Because you might = have 3000 active sessions on that server device and now you=E2=80=99re goin= g to have to sift through all 3000 returned records looking for the one you= were actually interested in.
=C2=A0=
Hope this makes sense!

I REALLY appreciate this explanation. I had foolishly ass= umed that you were worried about the load on the server device, but you'= ;re actually worried about the load on the user who is LOOKING at the serve= r device. Makes perfect sense, with your explanation.

<= div>If I might make a suggestion (at the "Comment, so do the right thi= ng" level), perhaps=C2=A0

OLD

<= /div>
=C2=A0 If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, the= n
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the only option is to retrieve all test-session in= stances from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Reflector device.=C2=A0 Thi= s could be problematic if a large
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of test ses= sions are currently active on that device.

=
NEW
=

=C2=A0 If the user has no network access to the Co= ntrol-Client device, then
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the only option is to retr= ieve all test-session instances from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Ref= lector device,=C2=A0and then pick out specific test= -session=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0instan= ces of interest to the user. This could be problematic if a large
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of test sessions are currently active on that d= evice.

would be helpful. But d= o the right thing, of course. Because that would be the right thing to do.<= /div>

Spencer
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Subject: Re: [ippm] [**EXTERNAL**] Re: AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-06 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 11:46:44 -0000 --_000_DM5PR04MB121096F98DD1D90963283531CBBA0DM5PR04MB1210namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SeKAmW0gZ29vZCB3aXRoIHRoYXQgY2hhbmdlIChhcyBsb25nIGFzIHNvbWVvbmUgZWxzZSBkb2Vz IHRoZSB1cGRhdGUgdG8gdGhlIGRvYyDigJMgSeKAmW0ga2luZCBvZiBidXN5IHJpZ2h0IG5vdyku DQoNCkNoZWVycywNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICBSdXRoDQoNCg0KRnJvbTogU3BlbmNlciBEYXdr aW5zIGF0IElFVEYgW21haWx0bzpzcGVuY2VyZGF3a2lucy5pZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbV0NClNlbnQ6 IFRodXJzZGF5LCBBcHJpbCAwNSwgMjAxOCA4OjMxIFBNDQpUbzogTWFoZXNoIEpldGhhbmFuZGFu aSA8bWpldGhhbmFuZGFuaUBnbWFpbC5jb20+DQpDYzogQnJpYW4gVHJhbW1lbGwgPGlldGZAdHJh 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Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A77126C89; Fri, 6 Apr 2018 05:59:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152301956026.3907.8997086151660847084@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 05:59:20 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 12:59:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework Authors : Al Morton Joachim Fabini Nalini Elkins Michael S. Ackermann Vinayak Hegde Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2018-04-06 Abstract: This memo updates the IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Framework RFC 2330 with new considerations for measurement methodology and testing. It updates the definition of standard-formed packets in RFC 2330 to include IPv6 packets, deprecates the definition of minimum standard- formed packet, and augments distinguishing aspects of packets, referred to as Type-P for test packets in RFC 2330. This memo identifies that IPv4-IPv6 co-existence can challenge measurements within the scope of the IPPM Framework. Exemplary use cases include, but are not limited to IPv4-IPv6 translation, NAT, protocol encapsulation, IPv6 header compression, or use of IPv6 over Low-Power Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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08:57:25 -0500 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: Tianran Zhou , "ippm@ietf.org" , Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model Thread-Index: AQHTxCvJHF3cBlu8+0uZUmAURD9UnKPhwliwgBFdlAD///x7AIAAymKA Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 13:57:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0D8CA483-D0E6-429D-B410-F5B1F03F46EE@cisco.com> <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.255.69] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C41740C2707649B5A7B4D733C9D5E0C3ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics 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([2601:647:4700:1280:7d4b:e77c:ae84:abd0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s63sm22840910pfe.6.2018.04.06.07.27.52 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Apr 2018 07:27:53 -0700 (PDT) References: <7BD03011-D417-49D7-85C9-D8EB0A8EA651@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-280AAA1B-E394-4F88-A2E2-9CC88ADC0538 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <73B27AC3-361B-4124-BBF1-FFBFDCFEF89F@gmail.com> Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Brian Trammell , Nalini Elkins , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13G36) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 07:27:51 -0700 To: "Civil, Ruth" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [**EXTERNAL**] Re: AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-06 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 14:27:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail-280AAA1B-E394-4F88-A2E2-9CC88ADC0538 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ruth, I will take care of updating the document.=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com > On Apr 6, 2018, at 4:46 AM, Civil, Ruth wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m good with that change (as long as someone else does the update= to the doc =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m kind of busy right now). > =20 > Cheers, > Ruth > =20 > =20 > From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2018 8:31 PM > To: Mahesh Jethanandani > Cc: Brian Trammell ; Nalini Elkins ; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-ya= ng@ietf.org > Subject: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-06= > =20 > Hi, Manesh, > =20 > On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > Spencer, > =20 > Here is the response I got from one of the co-authors, Ruth, on the questi= on below. >=20 >=20 > On Mar 29, 2018, at 9:45 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani = wrote: > =20 > I'm not questioning this text, > =20 > If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then > the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the > Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large > number of test sessions are currently active on that device. > =20 > but I am trying to understand what type of problems you're thinking of (de= lays in starting testing from the Control-Client device, because the Session= -Reflector is heavily loaded? Interference with current test sessions? Or so= mething else), and find myself guessing. > =20 > =20 > Well it only makes sense in the context of the previous paragraphs =E2=80=93= The whole text is given below: >=20 > Instances of twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession are indexed b= y a session identifier (SID). This is a value that is auto-allocated by the S= erver as test session requests are received, and communicated back to the cl= ient in the SID field of the Accept-Session field. > When attempting to retrieve operational data for active test sessions from= a Session-Reflector device, the user will not know what sessions are curren= tly active on that device, or what SIDs have been auto-allocated for these t= est sessions. If the user has network access to the Control-Client device, t= hen it is possible to read the data for this session under twampClient:twamp= CtrlSession:twampSessionRequest and obtain the SID.The user may then use thi= s SID value as an index to retrieve an individual twampSessionReflector:twam= pReflectorTestSession instance on the Session-Reflector device. > =E2=80=A6. (and then the final paragraph.) > If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then > the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the > Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large > number of test sessions are currently active on that device. > =20 > =20 > So what the description as a WHOLE (including the previous paragraphs) is s= aying, is that if you want to read operational data for a SINGLE specific te= st session that is in progress on the server, you have a problem. Test sess= ions as configured on the client have a NAME to identify them, but an instan= ce of this test session in execution has a dynamically allocated test Sessio= n ID =E2=80=93 and this is the ID you use for retrieving the OPERATIONAL sta= tus data for that test session on the Server while it is running. You can=E2= =80=99t use the test session name to retrieve operational data for this test= session on the server =E2=80=93 the test session name is not part of any TW= AMP message exchange, it=E2=80=99s something we use on the client to give a k= ey for a particular test session configuration (on the client) =E2=80=93 so t= he server has no knowledge of the name. The only thing the server does kno= w (and this is what it indexes its operational data for test sessions in pro= gress by) is the session ID that was dynamically allocated (by the server it= self as it accepted this incoming test session (and which IS communicated b= ack to the client in a TWAMP message exchange). > So, what does the user do if he wants to retrieve operational data for a s= ingle specific test session from the SERVER while that test session is runni= ng? He doesn=E2=80=99t know what SID the server dynamically allocated to hi= s particular test session. > There are 2 options. The FIRST 2 paragraphs describe how you can go to th= e CLIENT, retrieve operational data for the test session on the CLIENT using= the test session NAME =E2=80=93 and part of that operational data will be t= he dynamically allocated SID for that session (which the server communicated= back to the client during the message exchange). You can then go to the se= rver and use that SID as a key to retrieve the individual record for that t= est session=E2=80=99s operational data on the server. > OR (And this is what the individual paragraph you were quoting was)=20 > IF you have no access to the client, then you=E2=80=99re screwed, because y= ou don=E2=80=99t know the dynamically allocated SID for your session=E2=80=99= s name, and you can=E2=80=99t go to the client and get it. So all you can do= is effectively do a get/get next of ALL the operational data records for al= l test sessions currently in progress on the server, and then try to locate= the session you actually wanted to look at, based on other information (e.g= . IP addresses, UDP ports, etc) to identify it. And this may be problematic= if a large number of test sessions are currently active on that (server) de= vice. Because you might have 3000 active sessions on that server device and= now you=E2=80=99re going to have to sift through all 3000 returned records l= ooking for the one you were actually interested in. > =20 > Hope this makes sense! > =20 > I REALLY appreciate this explanation. I had foolishly assumed that you wer= e worried about the load on the server device, but you're actually worried a= bout the load on the user who is LOOKING at the server device. Makes perfect= sense, with your explanation. > =20 > If I might make a suggestion (at the "Comment, so do the right thing" leve= l), perhaps=20 > =20 > OLD > =20 > If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then > the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the > Session-Reflector device. This could be problematic if a large > number of test sessions are currently active on that device. > =20 > NEW > =20 > If the user has no network access to the Control-Client device, then > the only option is to retrieve all test-session instances from the > Session-Reflector device, and then pick out specific test-session=20 > instances of interest to the user. This could be problematic if a large= > number of test sessions are currently active on that device. > =20 > would be helpful. But do the right thing, of course. Because that would be= the right thing to do. > =20 > Spencer --Apple-Mail-280AAA1B-E394-4F88-A2E2-9CC88ADC0538 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ruth,

I will take care of updating th= e document. 

Mahesh Jethanandani

On Apr 6, 20= 18, at 4:46 AM, Civil, Ruth <gcivil@c= iena.com> wrote:

I=E2=80=99m good with that change (as long as someone= else does the update to the doc =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99m kind of busy right no= w).

 

Cheers,

         = ;       Ruth

 

 

From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2018 8:31 PM
To: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
Cc: Brian Trammell <ietf@tramm= ell.ch>; Nalini Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; i= ppm@ietf.org; dra= ft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org
Subject: [**EXTERNAL**] Re: AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-ya= ng-06

 

Hi, Manesh,

 

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani &= lt;mjethanandan= i@gmail.com> wrote:

Spencer,

 

Here is the response I got from one of the co-authors= , Ruth, on the question below.



On Mar 29, 2018, at 9:45 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <= mjethanandani@g= mail.com> wrote:

 

I'm not questioning this t= ext,

 <= /p>

  If the user has n= o network access to the Control-Client device, then

   the only opt= ion is to retrieve all test-session instances from the

=

   Session-Refl= ector device.  This could be problematic if a large

   number of te= st sessions are currently active on that device.

 <= /p>

but I am trying to unders= tand what type of problems you're thinking of (delays in starting testing fr= om the Control-Client device, because the Session-Reflector is heavily loaded? Interference with current test sessions? Or something el= se), and find myself guessing.

 

 

Well it only makes sense in the context of the previo= us paragraphs =E2=80=93 The whole text is given below:


Instances of twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession are indexed by a= session identifier (SID). This is a value that is auto-allocated by the Ser= ver as test session requests are received, and communicated back to the clie= nt in the SID field of the Accept-Session field.

When attempting to retrieve operational data for acti= ve test sessions from a Session-Reflector device, the user will not know wha= t sessions are currently active on that device, or what SIDs have been auto-= allocated for these test sessions. If the user has network access to the Control-Client device, then it is pos= sible to read the data for this session under twampClient:twampCtrlSession:t= wampSessionRequest and obtain the SID.The user may then use this SID value a= s an index to retrieve an individual twampSessionReflector:twampReflectorTestSession instance on the Session-Ref= lector device.

=E2=80=A6. (and then the final paragraph.)=

  If the user has no network access to the Co= ntrol-Client device, then

   the only option is to retrieve all te= st-session instances from the

   Session-Reflector device.  This c= ould be problematic if a large

   number of test sessions are currently= active on that device.

 

 

So what the description as a WHOLE (including the pre= vious paragraphs) is saying, is that if you want to read operational data fo= r a SINGLE specific test session that is in progress on the server, you have= a problem.  Test sessions as configured on the client have a NAME to identify them, but an instance of this test se= ssion in execution has a dynamically allocated test Session ID =E2=80=93 and= this is the ID you use for retrieving the OPERATIONAL status data for that t= est session on the Server while it is running.  You can=E2=80=99t use the test session name to retrieve oper= ational data for this test session on the server =E2=80=93 the test session n= ame is not part of any TWAMP message exchange, it=E2=80=99s something we use= on the client to give a key for a particular test session configuration (on the client) =E2=80=93 so the server has no knowledge of t= he name.   The only thing the server does know (and this is what i= t indexes its operational data for test sessions in progress by) is the sess= ion ID that was dynamically allocated (by the server itself as it accepted this incoming test session  (and which IS commun= icated back to the client in a TWAMP message exchange).
So, what does the user do if he wants to retrieve operational data for a sin= gle specific test session from the SERVER while that test session is running= ?  He doesn=E2=80=99t know what SID the server dynamically allocated to= his particular test session.
There are 2 options.  The FIRST 2 paragraphs describe how you can go to= the CLIENT, retrieve operational data for the test session on the CLIENT us= ing the test session NAME =E2=80=93 and part of that operational data will b= e the dynamically allocated SID for that session (which the server communicated back to the client during the message exchan= ge).  You can then go to the server and use that SID as a key to retrie= ve the individual  record for that test session=E2=80=99s operational d= ata on the server.
OR  (And this is what the individual paragraph you were quoting was)&nb= sp;
IF you have no access to the client, then you=E2=80=99re screwed, because yo= u don=E2=80=99t know the dynamically allocated SID for your session=E2=80=99= s name, and you can=E2=80=99t go to the client and get it. So all you can do= is effectively do a get/get next of ALL the operational data records for all test sessions currently  in progress on the server, an= d then try to locate the session you actually wanted to look at, based on ot= her information (e.g. IP addresses, UDP ports, etc) to identify it.  An= d this may be problematic if a large number of test sessions are currently active on that (server)&n= bsp;device.  Because you might have 3000 active sessions on that se= rver device and now you=E2=80=99re going to have to sift through all 3000 re= turned records looking for the one you were actually interested in.

 

Hope this makes sense!

 

I REALLY appreciate this explanation. I had foolishly= assumed that you were worried about the load on the server device, but you'= re actually worried about the load on the user who is LOOKING at the server d= evice. Makes perfect sense, with your explanation.

 

If I might make a suggestion (at the "Comment, so do t= he right thing" level), perhaps 

 

OLD

 

  If the user has no network access to the Contr= ol-Client device, then

   the only option is to retrieve all test-= session instances from the

   Session-Reflector device.  This cou= ld be problematic if a large

   number of test sessions are currently ac= tive on that device.

 

NEW

 

  If the user has no network access to the Contr= ol-Client device, then

   the only option is to retrieve all test-= session instances from the

   Session-Reflector device, and then pick out specific test-session <= /o:p>

   instances of i= nterest to the user. This could be problematic if a large<= /p>

   number of test sessions are currently ac= tive on that device.

 

would be helpful. But do the right thing, of course. B= ecause that would be the right thing to do.

 

Spencer

= --Apple-Mail-280AAA1B-E394-4F88-A2E2-9CC88ADC0538-- From nobody Sat Apr 7 18:54:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3F71274D2; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 18:54:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xI22wFSYJ2JQ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 18:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ACF0126FDC; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 18:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 5F10397BE6347; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 02:53:57 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.74) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 02:53:58 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by NKGEML413-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.74]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 09:53:44 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Greg Mirsky , "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" CC: "ippm@ietf.org" , Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model Thread-Index: AQHTxCvJHF3cBlu8+0uZUmAURD9UnKPhwliwgBFdlAD//yKNAIAD7dRQ Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 01:53:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0D8CA483-D0E6-429D-B410-F5B1F03F46EE@cisco.com> <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.156.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A6D5F03CNKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 01:54:04 -0000 --_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A6D5F03CNKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgR3JlZywNCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91IHZlcnkgbXVjaCBmb3IgeW91IGluaXRpYWwgY29tbWVudHMu DQoNCkJlc3QsDQpUaWFucmFuDQoNCkZyb206IEdyZWcgTWlyc2t5IFttYWlsdG86Z3JlZ2ltaXJz a3lAZ21haWwuY29tXQ0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBBcHJpbCAwNiwgMjAxOCA1OjUzIEFNDQpUbzog 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"draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model Thread-Index: AQHTxCvJHF3cBlu8+0uZUmAURD9UnKPhwliwgBFdlACAAxCqYA== Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 01:55:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0D8CA483-D0E6-429D-B410-F5B1F03F46EE@cisco.com> <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.156.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A6D5F04DNKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 01:55:51 -0000 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nobody Sat Apr 7 19:08:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBD71274D2; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 19:08:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KPM0BbRx5odV; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 19:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51BAA12E054; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 19:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 285B12857FA05; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 03:07:48 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 03:08:01 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 10:07:39 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , Greg Mirsky CC: "ippm@ietf.org" , Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model Thread-Index: AQHTxCvJHF3cBlu8+0uZUmAURD9UnKPhwliwgBFdlAD//yKNAIABDXWAgALhZsA= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 02:07:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0D8CA483-D0E6-429D-B410-F5B1F03F46EE@cisco.com> <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US 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[194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 006BE1273E2 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 23:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 0A3B3F33AF908 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 07:27:23 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 07:27:24 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:27:21 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHTzwF9vwi+Fh+9S06iV/e4udiMdaP2ZTsA Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 06:27:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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Message-ID: <152322229262.1413.9078643004350982803@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 14:18:12 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 21:18:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model Authors : Ruth Civil Al Morton Reshad Rahman Mahesh Jethanandani Kostas Pentikousis Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07.txt Pages : 66 Date : 2018-04-08 Abstract: This document specifies a data model for client and server implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Apr 8 14:43:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A431205D3; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWJ6_SWkXGOy; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C21491201F2; Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id h69so4562726pfe.13; Sun, 08 Apr 2018 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BRHDtzp+HZTww0cjLzCoy5ZFm+4TyiFyxlNz29Ak2LU=; b=ELA0ng2DmUK3OyEjqkH0c0ptQGL1gMBntJ+m4BRYCMSX7sr852eDIdzWcLYUxX68u0 Vu8+gfS12zd1cbBnmPjz3nOzYVF3NlX1dn+33miBV1J8hqEJIBLdxoZT9KOoQR5r+BGp h24lV6flQtI8zHBuMENYdgt/3UqPZrI9JlswuGsuyEkMpPLbB7+HBdFXAYlx7VY1OS5x R5q7jEPBQBBTs/epMGn8LhXY+dam7TwahU7q7x06ULeN5+OTFJlnpk0R5ghtwXGuY/3y N6hYCgPquw97UysViHqdSNfsZ1STIi8EeSmmsPtOg+z4zeQ8fvpxvy11AyprfXCG/N1k yosg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BRHDtzp+HZTww0cjLzCoy5ZFm+4TyiFyxlNz29Ak2LU=; b=OkcFkbPVFqdLG0KcE33MbI0vCjSKSMaVN/EaOcmqnhDV7VaL6wNktDz6XA/yLe1CS6 PDrpP3nduckByuEDWY53WHeo1XPeFr/AAyr05fjj3CN2RgFnAYwYPlBsgi7rmrWj/280 7ay1F9JUHVF7DBvbtkzEqHYDFO+NC92FJ7n3k5xx7+EocQrm2jzvZI1hW05iGmYv/51X 4uipkfpAqd7J6rU2jPLVbdnysLZCUOiz0DsX6+l3HNadmP43oub84CGkLM8Cw2iOTRPv E2q+VGECirMtX1j0Hd3PP3AkT+OYrOMS20U9NS3yI5+PTq3PJadyh9tbakOfY3EFAmkK y5XQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FUbGHFBYuf/vb4IW+q9yfJTTxrEuCjrwpJO1PAZM/kzTKjn0R1 5I0R9DiCxUkanrbazMpuUHbY92cg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48DxcfUpkbJ1AtjZ4EDMFa2dcFG5S10tGi/J9Y5e7oBZL7OjlNH7g54cFTnfWd5xjc5r/JlnQ== X-Received: by 10.98.201.15 with SMTP id k15mr27051055pfg.184.1523223831123; Sun, 08 Apr 2018 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:1879:1cea:2480:a538? ([2601:647:4700:1280:1879:1cea:2480:a538]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a5sm32657942pfl.159.2018.04.08.14.43.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Apr 2018 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <152322229262.1413.9078643004350982803@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 14:43:49 -0700 Cc: i-d-announce@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <05C5BE73-AEA5-4324-9324-3615657370D2@gmail.com> References: <152322229262.1413.9078643004350982803@ietfa.amsl.com> To: internet-drafts@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 21:43:54 -0000 Spencer, We, the authors, believe that this version of the draft addresses the = comments you raised as part of the AD review. Please let us know if = there are any comments or questions. Thanks > On Apr 8, 2018, at 2:18 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the = IETF. >=20 > Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) = Data Model > Authors : Ruth Civil > Al Morton > Reshad Rahman > Mahesh Jethanandani > Kostas Pentikousis > Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07.txt > Pages : 66 > Date : 2018-04-08 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies a data model for client and server > implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). > We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language > (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Mon Apr 9 07:57:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAAC1242F5; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 07:57:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.77.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: ippm-chairs@ietf.org, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com, ippm@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org, Nalini Elkins , spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <152328585933.30796.17694275929192609544.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 07:57:39 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Last Call: (Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 14:57:39 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (ippm) to consider the following document: - 'Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-27. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document specifies a data model for client and server implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. From nobody Wed Apr 11 03:02:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4BB12420B for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 03:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CygR4G8rLyEg for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 03:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5FF81200A0 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 03:02:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7063; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1523440957; x=1524650557; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=9GEE4IiapvxBM0vaTR7TsSCFVJ+3TemjX9Kfh93tbWw=; b=UxutBnnHW7UnEj4FTFjXwpd/+149KO6A8Zugu91Ej9yq8baKOPXhs7V4 GDtuD/NKddKlfr4Pi/0qErJveNg8xF+4cMwXXkhWUa96EvwBSAtTwd3Jn PjFd0D7VBJHFUDmc/Sh69YnDzjeFy7dRhxUi0Df/yCPmbvw5PvDVSY864 A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DNAADg281a/5NdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJNdWFvMotZjRKDA416hGeBeguHUyE0GAECAQEBAQEBAmw?= =?us-ascii?q?ohVZeAYEAJgEEGxeECmSoc4hMgh+HboFUP4EMh1CFdwKXVwgCin2DMIxMj2c?= =?us-ascii?q?CERMBgSQBHDiBUnAVOoJEghwaEY4GjRCBFwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.48,435,1517875200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="97235125" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Apr 2018 10:02:36 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (xch-aln-008.cisco.com [173.36.7.18]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3BA2aO0008673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:02:36 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 05:02:36 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 05:02:36 -0500 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AdPRe/DslDwu34XkSmq8g6ttV3Kt0Q== Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:02:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.117.7] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ff0c9182d1f14ec48b352e41fedaf58eXCHRCD008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:02:40 -0000 --_000_ff0c9182d1f14ec48b352e41fedaf58eXCHRCD008ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing wit= h the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm= -ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-io= am-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was th= e question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. A= fter carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the co= nclusion that the "OOAM header" does not meet the needs of IOAM: * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an encapsulatio= n needs to be as efficient as possible. The "OOAM header" is 8 bytes long. = The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only= requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unnecessary = overhead of 4 bytes - which is significant. * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at rece= nt IETF hackathons - and we're expecting additional implementations to be p= ublicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. D= espite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 list= hasn't revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In addition, the th= read revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM header are = still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols s= uch as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This ultimately means that we= won't get to a timely specification. * Scope: It isn't entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would u= ltimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit f= ield for "Next Prot", the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data need= s to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code points. = See e.g. the GRE encapsulation - as specified in draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-0= 0. With the above in mind, I'd suggest that the WG moves forward with specific= definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols - per the above men= tioned drafts. Regards, Frank --_000_ff0c9182d1f14ec48b352e41fedaf58eXCHRCD008ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brock= ners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.  After c= arefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusi= on that the “OOAM header” does not meet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The “OOAM header” is 8 bytes long. The approach for IO= AM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unneces= sary overhead of 4 bytes – which is significant.

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons – and = we’re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon. Int= eroperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 li= st hasn’t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In addition= , the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM hea= der are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to t= he OOAM header. This ultimately means that we won’t get to a timely s= pecification.

* Scope: It isn’t entirel= y clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The w= ay the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for “Next Prot= ”, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code poi= nts. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation – as specified in draft-weis-ippm= -ioam-gre-00.

With the above in mind, I’= ;d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encapsul= ating IOAM data into protocols – per the above mentioned drafts.=

 

Regards, Frank

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I did ask the RFC Editor about this and yes, they would expect to catch it but it would seem simpler if this could be a Normative Reference. You do have the statement up front about replacing the text with the RFC number and yes, the RFC Editor like that. There is no reference, no legend, for Tree Diagrams in 5.1 . There is now an RFC on this, RFC 8340 while RFC8343 s.1.3 is an example of how to reference this RFC. There is no copyright statement in the YANG module as is required by 6087bis (please, IESG, make this an RFC soon:-) leaf server-start-time { includes The timestamp format follows RFC 1305 but I see no RFC 1305 in the references of the I-D leaf reflector-udp-port " The default number is within to the dynamic port range and .. " which is not quite English. "The new well-known port (862) MAY be used."; This was allocated in 2008 which seems to stretch the meaning of 'new' leaf secret-key { type binary; I wonder about the choice of binary; elsewhere, e.g. RFC8177, hexadecimal is used. Are there, should there be, any length constraints on this key? case poisson { ... reference "RFC 2330: Framework for IP Performance Metrics"; RFC2330 I cannot see in the references for the I-D The Security Considerations are not as per the current template e.g. no mention of RESTCONF Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "The IESG" To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 3:57 PM > The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (ippm) > to consider the following document: - 'Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol > (TWAMP) Data Model' > as Proposed Standard > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-27. Exceptionally, comments may be > sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of > the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > Abstract > > > This document specifies a data model for client and server > implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). > We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language > (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. > > > > > The file can be obtained via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ > > IESG discussion can be tracked via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ballot/ > > > No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > > > > From nobody Wed Apr 11 06:21:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1014E126D05; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:21:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk CC: Nevil Brownlee , ippm-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, Brian Trammell , n.brownlee@auckland.ac.nz, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <152345290301.2259.3199214387291546461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:21:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 13:21:43 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (ippm) to consider the following document: - 'IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-25. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This memo updates the IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Framework RFC 2330 with new considerations for measurement methodology and testing. It updates the definition of standard-formed packets in RFC 2330 to include IPv6 packets, deprecates the definition of minimum standard- formed packet, and augments distinguishing aspects of packets, referred to as Type-P for test packets in RFC 2330. This memo identifies that IPv4-IPv6 co-existence can challenge measurements within the scope of the IPPM Framework. Exemplary use cases include, but are not limited to IPv4-IPv6 translation, NAT, protocol encapsulation, IPv6 header compression, or use of IPv6 over Low-Power Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN). The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6/ IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6/ballot/ No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. 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I have included the earlier ones (as yet unanswered) below. typedef test-session-state { ..... "Indicates that accepted TWAMP-Test session request."; something seems to have been omitted. leaf reflector-udp-port { type uint32 { range "862 | 49152..65535"; I am puzzled as to why uint32 is used and inet:port-number is not used here (happens in two places) "Reusable data structure for count which is used both in the Server container."; 'both' suggests to me that there should be a second clause. "grouping max-count { leaf max-count { type uint8 { range 10..31; } default 15;" contradicts " ...The default max-count value SHOULD be 32768.' 32768 is outside the range! I think that your problem here is that other TWAMP documentation, such as the RFC that you quote and reference uses 'max-count' to mean a 32 bit value but here you are reusing the term with a different semantic and using it to mean an exponent; rename the object to make it clear that it is an exponent and not a count e.g. max-count-exp. This occurs in several places. "container session-sender { if-feature session-sender; presence "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality."; description "Configuration of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity"; leaf admin-state { type boolean; mandatory true; description "Indicates whether the device is allowed to operate as a TWAMP Session-Sender."; " A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is that the admin-state boolean adds here since the presence container "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality."; " container session-reflector { " same story here Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom p." To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 12:40 PM > Some mostly administrative points on this I-D > > [I-D.ietf-ippm-metric-registry] is an Informative Reference so would not > hold up the production of this as an RFC yet you ask that the text be > replaced by the RFC number which implies that you do want it held up. I > did ask the RFC Editor about this and yes, they would expect to catch it > but it would seem simpler if this could be a Normative Reference. You > do have the statement up front about replacing the text with the RFC > number and yes, the RFC Editor like that. > > There is no reference, no legend, for Tree Diagrams in 5.1 . There is > now an RFC on this, RFC 8340 while RFC8343 s.1.3 is an example of how to > reference this RFC. > > There is no copyright statement in the YANG module as is required by > 6087bis (please, IESG, make this an RFC soon:-) > > leaf server-start-time { > includes > The timestamp format follows RFC 1305 > but I see no RFC 1305 in the references of the I-D > > leaf reflector-udp-port > " The default number is > within to the dynamic port range and .. " > which is not quite English. > > "The new well-known port (862) MAY be used."; > This was allocated in 2008 which seems to stretch the meaning of 'new' > > leaf secret-key { > type binary; > I wonder about the choice of binary; elsewhere, e.g. RFC8177, > hexadecimal is used. > Are there, should there be, any length constraints on this key? > > case poisson { > ... > reference > "RFC 2330: Framework for IP Performance Metrics"; > RFC2330 I cannot see in the references for the I-D > > The Security Considerations are not as per the current template e.g. no > mention of RESTCONF > > Tom Petch > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "The IESG" > To: "IETF-Announce" > Cc: ; ; > > Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 3:57 PM > > > The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG > (ippm) > > to consider the following document: - 'Two-Way Active Measurement > Protocol > > (TWAMP) Data Model' > > as Proposed Standard > > > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits > final > > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-27. Exceptionally, comments may > be > > sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the > beginning of > > the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > > > Abstract > > > > > > This document specifies a data model for client and server > > implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). > > We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language > > (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. > > > > > > > > > > The file can be obtained via > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ > > > > IESG discussion can be tracked via > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ballot/ > > > > > > No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > > > > > > > > > From nobody Wed Apr 11 08:57:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A148B12711E for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:57:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2018 10:43 PM > Spencer, > > We, the authors, believe that this version of the draft addresses the comments you raised as part of the AD review. Please let us know if there are any comments or questions. Mahesh I did not see Spencer's review until after I had posted my comments to the ietf list but there does appear to be a slight overlap. Tom Petch > Thanks > > > On Apr 8, 2018, at 2:18 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. > > > > Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model > > Authors : Ruth Civil > > Al Morton > > Reshad Rahman > > Mahesh Jethanandani > > Kostas Pentikousis > > Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07.txt > > Pages : 66 > > Date : 2018-04-08 > > > > Abstract: > > This document specifies a data model for client and server > > implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). > > We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language > > (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Wed Apr 11 09:12:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6161270AB for ; 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Every IETF YANG author should read the whole doc… Yes, that is the theory but the practice is that it is too big; even though I have followed its progress since the days of draft-bierman-netmod-yang-usage-00.txt I still struggle to find the text that I know is there when I want to comment on a YANG I-D that does not conform; and when I do not include the reference, I get a follow-up question as to where to look:-( So I mull over how better to present the material but have no clear conclusion as yet. Tom Petch > But Appendix B gives a checklist and Appendix C has a checklist. Section 3.7 has the security considerations and 3.7.1 has the template for that. > > Regards, > Reshad. > > From: Tianran Zhou > Date: Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 10:04 PM > To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "ippm@ietf.org" > Cc: Lizhenbin , "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model > > Hi Reshad, > > Thanks for your comments. > Please see in line. > > Cheers, > Tianran > > From: Reshad Rahman (rrahman) [mailto:rrahman@cisco.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 7:24 PM > To: Tianran Zhou; ippm@ietf.org > Cc: Lizhenbin; draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model > > Hi Tianran and Greg, > > While schema-mount would work, it is really intended for use-cases where there is a requirement to add a module in 2 or more locations (e.g. interfaces at top-level, in LNE and in NI). > > [ztr]Yes, that’s what I thought. So I suggested to use “feature” so that the can only support part of the encapsulation types. > > I’ve taken a quick look at the model: > > * The “enabled” leaf node under ioam-profiles (via grouping ioam-admin-config) says "When true, IOAM configuration is enabled for the system.". I think it’d make more sense if that enabled flag was to enable/disable IOAM data-plane functionality. > [ztr]Yes, this is more clear. I will add the words to the document. > > * Would be best to use yang-version 1.1 IMO. > * Please take a look at 6087bis. > [ztr]Could you please point out what part of the 6087bis I need to pay attention? And what is not yang 1.1? > I intended to follow yang 1.1 indeed. ☺ > > Regards, > Reshad. > > From: ippm > on behalf of Tianran Zhou > > Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 3:03 PM > To: "ippm@ietf.org" > > Cc: Lizhenbin >, "draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang@ietf.org" > > Subject: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model > > Hi Folks, > > Thanks Greg to point out the flexibility of sub-profiles on the meeting. Here I would like to discuss the way to optimize this point for the IOAM YANG as described in: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang/ > > Although, as suggested, schema mount could help to dynamically mount sub-profiles to the IOAM configuration, IMHO, it may lead to the fragmentation of the model, I.e., several modules. And I cannot see the possibility to reuse the sub-profiles, except to this model. > > With the same requirement, I would suggest to use “feature” to enable the supported IOAM encapsulation types. And use the “enable” within each sub-profile to indicate the actual used sub-profile by the instance. > > Now four encapsulation types are supported according to the latest IOAM data specification. We may augment the model with more sub-profiles. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks, > Tianran > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > From nobody Wed Apr 11 10:40:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7763312785F for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:40:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:40:44 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com ([173.37.102.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 12:40:44 -0500 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: "t.petch" , Tianran Zhou , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] optimize the IOAM YANG data model Thread-Index: AQHTxCvJHF3cBlu8+0uZUmAURD9UnKPhwliwgBFdlACACLdzKIAAKXqA Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:40:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0D8CA483-D0E6-429D-B410-F5B1F03F46EE@cisco.com> <0DFD4B3F-0D04-4353-A53A-5DA6C53A4E6C@cisco.com> <036f01d3d1af$c197a820$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> In-Reply-To: <036f01d3d1af$c197a820$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.48] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve= -00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to tak= e > to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header > could be leveraged. After carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-= header, > I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not = meet the needs of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mention= ed > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an > unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > > * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional i= mplementations to > be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OO= AM > in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM h= eader. In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about th= e > OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms > within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM head= er would > ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bi= t > field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols = that IOAM data > needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wit= h > specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93= per the > above mentioned drafts. > For all the reasons mentioned above, I agree that it would be prudent to proceed with specific definitions for IOAM transport in protocols, per the above mentioned drafts. Mickey > > > Regards, Frank > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --f4f5e805c994cb6272056996f9a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cis= co.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-= brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After c= arefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the con= clusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach fo= r IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unneces= sary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon.= Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 li= st hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In additi= on, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM h= eader are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to t= he OOAM header. This ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely= specification.

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext = Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code poi= nts. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis-ip= pm-ioam-gre-00.

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= /span>


For all the reasons = mentioned above, I agree that it would be prudent to proceed with specific = definitions for IOAM transport in protocols, per the above mentioned drafts= .

Mickey
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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(PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id u3-v6so8720389lff.5; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 09:54:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=k24k4M4BHpZA/c74l7cDQMO/rTKBXFfqPRpNx1yzCUQ=; b=tWtJ1ZfukJCpoYskv9oNf5R3xN7/pSsX8q4M/HhWm3riePkkyOHrjQa0q/jyE5vzIY KhOSqNpHOeuLVNVy3PMp6cOYeE/SaLf5LTGUMDhVmPs/cQnHiBYXzgB84lY6tQTbiL4B k6T3RrUigp6rRf7ZiGojyKuimF9BaYgBsC8hHxO879tkHZOeWVNoQoDDCpUvDTHY6Wbm SLamHi4MaGEwuSZZHj/dTLdr8a6KCkAKClgastY89JebLXhPBrevUQFILMvddE9ZUuPf x9A+zS1VfbPlcpVeB/Ag8/Sc2diGPz/mPEvu9oRRfVAz6K+7UQTjFrsQZVuLZKg9A7Ek OS+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=k24k4M4BHpZA/c74l7cDQMO/rTKBXFfqPRpNx1yzCUQ=; b=cxWyx/gzIdXEKFyDXcBqZh+BbPzQ1OiDqewuIDHufFvdSZpfhOTiiH1KyDp7SWWd3v 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boundary="000000000000d13f4a0569a99bad" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:54:33 -0000 --000000000000d13f4a0569a99bad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other working groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. Regards, Greg On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve= -00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to tak= e > to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header > could be leveraged. After carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-= header, > I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not = meet the needs of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mention= ed > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an > unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: - provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; - supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; - is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional i= mplementations to > be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OO= AM > in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM h= eader. In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about th= e > OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms > within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations you refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM head= er would > ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bi= t > field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols = that IOAM data > needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet traversing the underlay. I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply . With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward with = specific > definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the = above > mentioned drafts. > > > > Regards, Frank > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --000000000000d13f4a0569a99bad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank,
thank you for sharing your points. Please fi= nd my notes in-line and tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very muc= h relevant to work of other working groups that directly work on the overla= y encapsulations in the center of the discussion and hence I've added t= hem to the list. Hope we'll have more opinions to reach the conclusion = that is acceptable to all.

Regards,
Greg=

On Wed, Apr= 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com= > wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-= brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After c= arefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the con= clusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach fo= r IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unneces= sary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

GIM>> The difference in four octets is because = OOAM Header:
  • provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field = and Reserved fields;
  • supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;<= /li>
  • is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).
    • <= /ul>

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon.= Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 li= st hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In additi= on, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM h= eader are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to t= he OOAM header. This ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely= specification.

GIM>> May I a= sk which encapsulations supported by the implementations you refer to. Unti= l very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data TLV in, e.g. Genev= e and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations already updated to= the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them use O= OAM Header. Would you agree?
=C2=A0

<= u>

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext = Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code poi= nts. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis-ip= pm-ioam-gre-00.

GIM>> The fir= st paragraph of the Introduction section states:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0New= protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation= ], and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol= payload, e.g.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Op= erations, Administration, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OAM) as o= ne of distinct types.=C2=A0 That ensures that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Overla= y OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0traversing the underlay.=C2=A0
I'm updating the OOA= M Header draft and along with cleaning nits will update reference to GUE. I= think that the list and the statemnt are quite clear in identifying the sc= ope of networks that may benefit from using not only common OOAM Header but= common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply.

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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-0500 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: IETF IPPM WG , NVO3 , "Service Function Chaining IETF list" , "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AdPRe/DslDwu34XkSmq8g6ttV3Kt0QBLOKqAAAir4cA= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 18:06:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.117.7] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_f48b40357e644666bdd5c51c63118f80XCHRCD008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 11:37:43 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 18:37:48 -0000 On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Frank, > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and tagge= d > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other working > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center of = the > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > wrote: >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question on >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After carefu= lly >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion tha= t >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM he= ader=E2=80=9D is 8 >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentio= ned >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add a= n >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > What is the relationship between this proposal and draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark which is currently searching for a way to squeeze out two bits in the IP header for performance measurement? Tom > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional = implementations to >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on O= OAM >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM = header. In >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about t= he >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations you > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data TL= V > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM hea= der would >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-b= it >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols= that IOAM data >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > traversing the underlay. > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will upda= te > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite clear = in > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. > >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wi= th >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80= =93 per the >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From nobody Thu Apr 12 14:28:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668AF1270AC; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zCG-v7ChYkwg; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 062B1124217; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id e5-v6so9755058lfb.7; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:28:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PS3A6zEj5XY5k1H353peZiTJ64SsToibN0BwKazwbRc=; b=kcfiIkpWuFQQhHZ2PW5looGv4u3l00VWh9/TSfLDTazHypCR2Hj3A/SFEB/fjk0Isi WQvDrFlOXIiDtV4S1HK2Mcl0s4N9dqK3fdsU/npNBkTl8MoqhtA2fwFt7I9OPtDomIFq 8wEPdtBVZHF9EK933YVpvVjobVT7kmQ9qJHHmwp7M/li2urbxfAqTeUZ0ZGwQK26TQta 6DnV4Y2WOl0hSU8BgGraso9GnUo/T5ThysWvsO6G4YQAVs4S0dM50bF6/LvbVP51FIl0 AnagZ4qJldLZCvM1XkZHVmRbIDEUPUYRhjwONHRYY0q2qPiFg70eullunCkO9Z60rcYf c7AA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PS3A6zEj5XY5k1H353peZiTJ64SsToibN0BwKazwbRc=; b=sAwuCTxd39ofk7MW/Ef8JgIkQJMv6me+boy/IgnLx48uDnoyxtFTuusFdQFe6xwCE+ x11i/6K/dyY06yCj67nJCvkFYFBDteHnCkNtlwTAapUcj8KznjnZF3t5Avby4A6WUgh9 Z5ubGhhTdTb/mDvb8T//68U35UQfC/dfJXo8DsilqvTAZtXCr02I0kfFsK/z7qWFO7VC roG3MLViRgFTMtW9fc5IqHrLH9eyIG0gES3ZC2lliN2f51WC8mLEkcsWBGNNuos12nrq NRRBwZb4zd7cwNeNXR6cmXj8Nb6yKzB5oKW4alsDBDVUMMORnwNwCNuCcfAy0Qfn8uNV FNJw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAEEQePsIhTgZazOEUMcFTHtZ0UtE/F6yCzHVGafHk2jEvMO5xZ eparuJQWxVc/maK6ARYGLlIvLqHjPeZZfnHanYc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/78vydyNkb+iEjItQU+dp8OFgz0ulpMppHd7XubqEscrSiwlbc3D4dgQHkqfhETah1yv/Vj9Z53PTdzI844VU= X-Received: by 10.46.32.154 with SMTP id g26mr1628474lji.71.1523568511913; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:28:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:28:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 23:28:31 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1143062af192f60569ad6f1d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:28:43 -0000 --001a1143062af192f60569ad6f1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tom, I think you refer to the proposal on how to apply RFC 8321 in IPv6 networks. Using two bits-long field for Alternate Marking is just one option as you can find in the draft on compact Alt.marking . But to answer your question, there's no connection or dependency between the Alternate Marking method and OOAM. Will note that we have documents on the applicability of the Alternate Marking method in BIER, SFC NSH, and Geneve. Regards, Greg On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and > tagged > > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other worki= ng > > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center o= f > the > > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more > > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > wrote: > >> > >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealin= g > >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, > >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One > >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on > >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After > carefully > >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion > that > >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: > >> > >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM = header=E2=80=9D > is 8 > >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above > mentioned > >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add > an > >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > > > > What is the relationship between this proposal and > draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark which is currently searching for a > way to squeeze out two bits in the IP header for performance > measurement? > > Tom > > > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > > > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > >> > >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additiona= l implementations > to > >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on > OOAM > >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOA= M header. > In > >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about > the > >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanis= ms > >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations y= ou > > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data > TLV > > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations > > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in > > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > > > >> > >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM h= eader > would > >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a > 8-bit > >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protoco= ls that IOAM data > >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and > > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > > traversing the underlay. > > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will > update > > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite clea= r > in > > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only > > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. > > > >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward = with > >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80= =93 per > the > >> above mentioned drafts. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, Frank > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ippm mailing list > >> ippm@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > > --001a1143062af192f60569ad6f1d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tom,
I think you refer to the proposal on how to ap= ply RFC 8321=C2=A0in IP= v6 networks. Using two bits-long field for Alternate Marking is just one op= tion as you can find in the draft on compact Alt.marking. = But to answer your question, there's no connection or dependency betwee= n the Alternate Marking method and OOAM. Will note that we have documents o= n the applicability of the Alternate Marking method in BIER, SFC NSH, and G= eneve.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 8= :37 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, = Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.= com> wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and ta= gged
> GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of othe= r working
> groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center = of the
> discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll h= ave more
> opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> <fbrockne@cisco.com> w= rote:
>>
>> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts de= aling
>> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols
>> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00,
>> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre= -00). One
>> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the quest= ion on
>> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 A= fter carefully
>> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the con= clusion that
>> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM:=
>>
>> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an
>> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9CO= OAM header=E2=80=9D is 8
>> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above = mentioned
>> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would= add an
>> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >

What is the relationship between this proposal and
draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark which is currently searching for a<= br> way to squeeze out two bits in the IP header for performance
measurement?

Tom

> GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header:
>
> provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;
> supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
> is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).
>>
>> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also show= n at
>> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting addit= ional implementations to
>> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely
>> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent threa= d on OOAM
>> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the= OOAM header. In
>> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions a= bout the
>> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mech= anisms
>> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is
>> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specificati= on.
>
> GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementa= tions you
> refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data= TLV
> in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations=
> already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see probl= em in
> making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree?
>
>>
>> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OO= AM header would
>> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses= a 8-bit
>> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some pro= tocols that IOAM data
>> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol = code
>> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00.
>
> GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GP= E
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Genev= e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-enc= apsulation], and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.= g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administra= tion, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types.=C2=A0 That en= sures that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay d= ata packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traversing the underlay.
> I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits wi= ll update
> reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite cle= ar in
> identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only=
> common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply= .
>
>> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forw= ard with
>> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols = =E2=80=93 per the
>> above mentioned drafts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards, Frank
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Int-area mailing list
> Int-area@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-ar= ea
>

--001a1143062af192f60569ad6f1d-- From nobody Thu Apr 12 14:35:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB3D1270AC; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39GKhOzoEjGD; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3381124217; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id e5-v6so9775199lfb.7; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pGPmi1Sxf/tblpKV7sG3a4RmHhIHvLS3P+5KWSIOoKo=; b=HimWTQf2TshKzRg8V1yjbUHyPi4mpNJgpI3Pcf9QOlxQR/nubUScc8nzLiNZYva6T+ VFjpa99djDGWYVDvm4Ss2e7QallRxC8nHOF3OhCisFYfDUpzV0aTYS5S2jtqQ3ntO8tM glIy8b7C6Tb2H0SYklhwhJi8/w6f9S5PayQWgpfCjmNIW6EAg7rPDpSPfWy3kiH5Qadv UEoO2qHEcbGfBQDtCaPVodTFpd6B/5aepRx74+vkXVvcrKe0SgQLG8woqu4Fmgj4LvzO 3M5kubLe7KQzGjEUSLVX6Mt7HQzUa2BRt/dqIi0VvV4Ps8kK7cpWZqbnf0+W8jbCJ4Qb jYbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pGPmi1Sxf/tblpKV7sG3a4RmHhIHvLS3P+5KWSIOoKo=; b=m1EkPBmzBcjSIfrBWq2PYStlKt9U7LHHFfqH504w0ykDBhyCi9yK/nKaL3JOf62rv0 PapfAue31p3826R3rHd+94iQFTQ9sBQhlzc7kUEmquYZGW9enBeQJhHaAg9FGVxagyCA qmYu0sFZPf1BcPuSlDj7Wk1oI983P3E/RX0v/SyxY/TvNJYXtOIQXD/XHD2EacEMf0t/ tWHFcM/J/A4v6VLx/X+KJRDGB8q1Htt3vlRVUxRswbSSXhI8BxVe6xYmk6879oQaiADA qLjA5+dlF6zXtwkP10BQupNg4tUCu3Mc9RXPnpk69dRukeeL7ZhiRy+RSDKysS87x5Nl PH3w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAzfR/iztbwRRA8lG56gyqsaag3zK3oxZKJ260ULOI8SlpfUJJ/ bH+nFDp2uPM4L2g7FrnaBTWTl8mbkS7RY4Oyha0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx490OFSEUM66du7whVK6SUkwEYOKrn2VlWX+RGm3Fvkenhl9MfA6pGvwllq02FM2ewh66FyxKXQduuRPZqfm52w= X-Received: by 10.46.156.132 with SMTP id x4mr1628273lji.19.1523568920822; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:35:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:35:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 23:35:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" Cc: IETF IPPM WG , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="883d24f22754510a1e0569ad88cd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:35:26 -0000 --883d24f22754510a1e0569ad88cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, I think you've misunderstood my response to your statements: - the scope of OOAM, contrary to what you've stated, is clearly stated in the draft; - what you present as "efficiency" I consider to be serious limitations (lack of versioning, limited size for data, and no future extension) tha= t should be explained and thoroughly discussed by the WGs that develop corresponding overlay networks before IPPM WG makes any decision. Regards, Greg On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > thanks =E2=80=93 and it seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with re= gards to > efficiency (4 bytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of) o= f > OOAM. > > > > On the IOAM implementation: There are several implementations of IOAM. > Some of which have recently been worked on and shown at an IETF hackathon= , > see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides- > 100-hackathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and > VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofino.= You > probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E . > > Below you seem to be specifically referring to the IOAM open source > implementation in FD.io/VPP: There are protocol encapsulations for > VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code uses > the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverages= MD-Type 2 for > NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in SFC whether to= use > MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t yet= settled, > hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain from updating the code until SFC WG has come = to a > conclusion. > > > > Could you provide a pointer to an OOAM implementation? > > > > Thanks, > > Frank > > > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54 > *To:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG ; NVO3 ; Service > Function Chaining IETF list ; int-area@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - > follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Frank, > > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and tagge= d > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other working > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center of > the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have mor= e > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < > fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve= -00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to tak= e > to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header > could be leveraged. After carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-= header, > I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not = meet the needs of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mention= ed > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an > unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > - provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > - supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > - is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > > * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional i= mplementations to > be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OO= AM > in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM h= eader. In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about th= e > OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms > within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations you > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data TL= V > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > > > > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM head= er would > ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bi= t > field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols = that IOAM data > needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and > > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > > traversing the underlay. > > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will > update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite > clear in identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using no= t > only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo > Request/Reply > . > > > > With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wit= h > specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93= per the > above mentioned drafts. > > > > Regards, Frank > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > --883d24f22754510a1e0569ad88cd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank,
I think you've misunderstood my response= to your statements:
  • the scope of OOAM,=C2=A0contrary to what you've stated, is clearly stated i= n the draft;
  • what you present as "efficiency" I consider = to be serious limitations (lack of versioning, limited size for data, and n= o future extension) that should be explained and thoroughly discussed by th= e WGs that develop corresponding overlay networks before IPPM WG makes any = decision.
Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 8:0= 6 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote= :

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

thanks =E2=80=93 and i= t seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with regards to efficiency (4 b= ytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of) of OOAM.

=C2=A0

On the IOAM implementa= tion: There are several implementations of IOAM. Some of which have recentl= y been worked on and shown at an IETF hackathon, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-hac= kathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and= VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofino. = You probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E .

Below you seem to be s= pecifically referring to the IOAM open source implementation in FD.io/VPP: = There are protocol encapsulations for VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code us= es the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverage= s MD-Type 2 for NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in = SFC whether to use MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t yet settled, hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain fr= om updating the code until SFC WG has come to a conclusion.

=C2=A0

Could you provide a po= inter to an OOAM implementation?

=C2=A0

Thanks,<= /span>

Frank

=C2=A0

From: = Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Sent: Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; Service Function Chaining IETF list <= sfc@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols = - follow up from WG discussion in London

=C2=A0

Hi Frank,

thank you for sharing your points. Please find my no= tes in-line and tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very much releva= nt to work of other working groups that directly work on the overlay encaps= ulations in the center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more opinio= ns to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (f= brockne) <fbrock= ne@cisco.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question on = whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After care= fully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not m= eet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 = bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of = 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

GIM>> The difference in four octets is because= OOAM Header:

  • provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;<= /u>
  • supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
  • is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite th= e question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 list hasn=E2= =80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In addition, the th= read revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM me= chanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification.

GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported= by the implementations you refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposal= s were to use meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some o= f these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them us= e OOAM Header. Would you agree?

=C2=A0

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM d= ata needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code = points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis= -ippm-ioam-gre-00.

GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction = section states:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0New protocols that support overlay netw= orks like VxLAN-GPE

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.iet= f-nvo3-gue], Geneve

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-= bier-mpls-encapsulation], and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-pr= otocol payload, e.g.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Oper= ations, Administration, and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct ty= pes.=C2=A0 That ensures that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing f= ate with Overlay data packet

=C2=A0 =C2=A0traversing the underlay.=C2=A0

I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along wit= h cleaning nits will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the= statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks that may ben= efit from using not only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply.

=C2=A0

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


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ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
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--883d24f22754510a1e0569ad88cd-- From nobody Thu Apr 12 14:46:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2E412AF83 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:46:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01jq2yJSnOiF for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FBED129C59 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id c188so7125940qkg.2 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:46:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/91CaAn2dy/nvMMrocaC7bJAliXzb0WpY5Jf6tYeD7E=; b=gKPYxkek+Mf+yuiNRuktuceLddgZqb2wQgH/jwBiaCyn8P0PbCBBJtfkI7Xjb5YfwS +cU9Dx8EhVOd0lDzJa2exBh8VO2ONeCSdVnbBVuI7QHFn0nOz7lx9yCCpdy5rkHcFGD2 Tcf2az6w9xCj9IQAw96YZkeGPx2RU1ooTki3Vz+9+j4osrnbPGOF8jdXSAaDir6O8AIw 7Hq0fs86Uh+XPySYFqOOLu5iOo2ZZNMsjOSNulzM3zneqRLom+PUHzngOb9jWMbAx+Gt IQpbjTY6gxW1M1WM9ow0gjXyc7yGVBTWiVMltxj9aWEQP6hr9crW/HbDqDeobUH5OB8M mNtg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/91CaAn2dy/nvMMrocaC7bJAliXzb0WpY5Jf6tYeD7E=; b=o/aJn66P/Y8vZ+cVMayqtszEHZOn4QYPooOBRd/52Zm+V0UTeOwy1pQG8lVNgqZkPZ 0Fibz72r6qHzTMiExKvNlPbmKa7nLiR9pyOEmomYgHUlpR7t7GPJwqpj0/qpxBy6/1Sx Sgp3puJ/Ol6c5TNmhSmZ/h5lSSxLjDNUANjkt+zRR6DemOTzV3CvBkhdFW/CcyBvmEPv CdInpFkEpULb7pJZYSUaOA7LuJEZPI5Z7afukx2XEJuL57UD6eRhZ9KL2QUCEzoAL24A BLkEH7AfB4bApp6gd6OhUXCpDty879WaSecX6+bRuA8wNd+D5BZEbGGDpFVjUFHVWUii 4/8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCDsuv8RX6vHNhlilZXxF2RqvsBAYDBnhfhS60BN4J2kSEiJp5j H2caYbWeZ+6dezG09KWTUV/Er3vQF5z4Qp6rAVMSJQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+eNzO8rgj37hnCounJluao3ouaNROJpxh0XreIGbvlCxqgpxlTZsdSsD7cbUgRf0f2qoQ/Yae0OmQUB2yGMik= X-Received: by 10.55.203.135 with SMTP id u7mr2460398qkl.190.1523569608859; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:46:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.26.135 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:46:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:46:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:46:53 -0000 On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Frank, > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and tagge= d > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other working > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center of = the > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > wrote: >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question on >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After carefu= lly >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion tha= t >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM he= ader=E2=80=9D is 8 >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentio= ned >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add a= n >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. Greg, I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this adds up to only four bytes of overhead. Tom > > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional = implementations to >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on O= OAM >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM = header. In >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about t= he >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations you > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data TL= V > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM hea= der would >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-b= it >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols= that IOAM data >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > traversing the underlay. > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will upda= te > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite clear = in > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. > >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wi= th >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80= =93 per the >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From nobody Thu Apr 12 14:50:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFB512AF83; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:50:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vuo_yx9nsPS8; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22c.google.com (mail-lf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5399129C59; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id b189-v6so9843725lfe.2; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:50:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fq7zyng+lxyLbX5cwPEmv3FJPJCLcdaGMLSGikg7yhY=; b=eysnN8lxYjyvPCCuFUzmT5SCSRnyfDey4ueJJFBeJkatpLK40i2LzkszaDsfKoUVV/ OXg6Nno87SBqo78+f2MFWoJecR/xaPDXUWWfvDG3Y7o51T1xdA5BFvSsrrXqLjkoMz7D sCtyA48xs3Ouue00Q8c33e25CvTi/c+LVyOyAeceFW4AcWtf6ef8gDc4+6KEMaOvCfW3 PjfISl3XFtParxd9/qtnQNZsgoAA2yeKjNxXKRCf7VsEFPaodIg+6QT+RTzADIbsL/Cx 1zYPYtOcYZ/BBLCfV6/mnO3xND17DlnbslFVkIDlV3GSDc+BB0K4Mk4eFezwu9N4gFNA DYoQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fq7zyng+lxyLbX5cwPEmv3FJPJCLcdaGMLSGikg7yhY=; b=jGPRPULz1iayiQDojCwiFRI/O6R6YIxEvV4ZmCymjWLaX3Hg2GGdvC8xWcuwYpzZNc bmRPdyTPAu36aYuWIC1r0F+tlF11+t6Iu6qr9en8FIaa3bbRxa2Yf3nptFuwyUuC22Fh XHj9Ll8TSGvQaiip0xTobIfpSt1D0XVHQhipoN56YDAFrGnB15xYAvNeZrJOQPOpOGJn KCmzoOiG7we+h5GZXL+AyIMGUgfPFtlhODDC0K7iZQb3C54SMOHI2dBSXiT6GThzYmR7 Nl8XPhO2zPW2LrbV5nqSYYmlaItxYeMuib4Hpt5DezfTLMONV1jjKzZh+o0DpCEHrSK6 uNwA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAqwHg9GKKWDVYVu8ftGMk8jLqLc76Aq3vTH4YMwUAxtewj/Rml IfwjWPidCXTd96D4iEsRKRBGfRclaAjSk/MIHb4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/cxRn95yZtiJ53VNMuRLWt8Dg5CORlZThaF4zHwkSO+2HF+U0nnN5S10TLViCz+fEPjHhx8JRsFF7z8ssGITQ= X-Received: by 10.46.32.154 with SMTP id g26mr1658501lji.71.1523569834080; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:50:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 23:50:33 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1143062ac03f9f0569adbeb7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:50:40 -0000 --001a1143062ac03f9f0569adbeb7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tom, could you please mention which drafts, iOAM or OOAM, you refer to. Please note, that OOAM supports both active and hybrid OAM methods, while iOAM only the latter. Regards, Greg On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and > tagged > > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other worki= ng > > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center o= f > the > > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more > > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > wrote: > >> > >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealin= g > >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, > >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One > >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on > >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After > carefully > >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion > that > >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: > >> > >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM = header=E2=80=9D > is 8 > >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above > mentioned > >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add > an > >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > Greg, > > I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and > each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four > bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for > instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and > length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this > adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > > Tom > > > > > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > > > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > >> > >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additiona= l implementations > to > >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on > OOAM > >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOA= M header. > In > >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about > the > >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanis= ms > >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations y= ou > > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data > TLV > > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations > > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in > > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > > > >> > >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM h= eader > would > >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a > 8-bit > >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protoco= ls that IOAM data > >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and > > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > > traversing the underlay. > > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will > update > > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite clea= r > in > > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only > > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. > > > >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward = with > >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80= =93 per > the > >> above mentioned drafts. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, Frank > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ippm mailing list > >> ippm@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > > --001a1143062ac03f9f0569adbeb7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tom,
could you please mention which drafts, iOAM or= OOAM, you refer to. Please note, that OOAM supports both active and hybrid= OAM methods, while iOAM only the latter.

Regards,=
Greg

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM, Tom Herbert &= lt;tom@herbertland= .com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and ta= gged
> GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of othe= r working
> groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center = of the
> discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll h= ave more
> opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> <fbrockne@cisco.com> w= rote:
>>
>> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts de= aling
>> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols
>> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00,
>> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre= -00). One
>> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the quest= ion on
>> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 A= fter carefully
>> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the con= clusion that
>> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM:=
>>
>> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an
>> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9CO= OAM header=E2=80=9D is 8
>> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above = mentioned
>> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would= add an
>> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. Greg,

I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four
bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for
instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and
length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this adds up to only four bytes of overhead.

Tom

>
> GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header:
>
> provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;
> supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
> is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).
>>
>> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also show= n at
>> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting addit= ional implementations to
>> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely
>> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent threa= d on OOAM
>> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the= OOAM header. In
>> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions a= bout the
>> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mech= anisms
>> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is
>> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specificati= on.
>
> GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementa= tions you
> refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data= TLV
> in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations=
> already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see probl= em in
> making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree?
>
>>
>> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OO= AM header would
>> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses= a 8-bit
>> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some pro= tocols that IOAM data
>> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol = code
>> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00.
>
> GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GP= E
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Genev= e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-enc= apsulation], and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.= g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administra= tion, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types.=C2=A0 That en= sures that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay d= ata packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traversing the underlay.
> I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits wi= ll update
> reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite cle= ar in
> identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only=
> common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply= .
>
>> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forw= ard with
>> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols = =E2=80=93 per the
>> above mentioned drafts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards, Frank
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
>
>
> __________________= _____________________________
> Int-area mailing list
> Int-area@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-ar= ea
>

--001a1143062ac03f9f0569adbeb7-- From nobody Thu Apr 12 14:53:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0382412AF83 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tPuPjKM0xpUT for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B316312D779 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id i142so3405599qke.12 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:53:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IgLlpyLqm/eJ52btMRF1Sb2UQYVgAHBD6AWIWR1UeJ0=; b=hH81HYQyruLvE1zUu9AKAL1577Dvka3ZFertoeZMKNN4suXPAQVCiKNuFCC2i6KYFv CbGseQCQ3dGoc6SiTZgBkOlEh8hqRqXrlaUq2Gfg7NzuNqKo0bP824tElPl/fv9AGIss 0gBAsduaj2scI7HDZquvHs3TAY7Zmpqc2NLvBm3Wqch2ymj5mNgpm7rsBPvRs9WvpCd+ PS74NRpQ0gH+Olf+qPBu9hayCAgxp0pPU8sKdUBbUFx1z+kup9dpNICIv+GShmhwS4tG kaQ0P9VdfYGG3oyI2zhB0MlIGhvSkh4MvdqTDARpFE5/z8/4GOfOcet79d5yc/ze6RjS szMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IgLlpyLqm/eJ52btMRF1Sb2UQYVgAHBD6AWIWR1UeJ0=; b=FJNn+1Fj4PsNyL4K11fVV+Oy9JJZbpCEf8l5uOtzUt6AKJM4eKiY6g42a7n2UsCd3+ wO0nSYOKM9MdAUvDdfhEawq+Z0nVSpqI0i66qq46us2JqSRyFtiHw5bzgPjGpTHnsdB9 3wBXoUt6X1sID/AjW5vBj9Wjp3BpCxK6Zq7qIYfMH8BvO/3UZyRX55JIQeWMnmbTOYX4 fh0CDFjEfImHeNDkJo0UwdNwygGrfEGr0jb3bQrtCgtgtzj4l99SkqVc8dj3bZEuPqgv D5n+BYriDCPtW64Cv6YlFV0n9neWhF+VDzo2w1Qvn5E0qk8/2S8D3YIuhNnBpO9jj5Cm tH+A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAxzRlOok28/4mpsub2nG7as5ZxFAAsIitxKabsqLDPc2DacThl x50p5Ukv/LQsZTPKzydviiLBqq54ayZKuPUMTBk8oA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+Js6lf9CYXf3VsLcKq1C7MrMG5oTrkJzEWxuhvIrQL5TkjznPIm+H4JXcWfqK6mNHJAqYcyjHDjl1DxcFH3Wk= X-Received: by 10.55.195.85 with SMTP id a82mr2616603qkj.49.1523569996580; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:53:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.26.135 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:53:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:53:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:53:22 -0000 On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Tom, > could you please mention which drafts, iOAM or OOAM, you refer to. Please > note, that OOAM supports both active and hybrid OAM methods, while iOAM o= nly > the latter. Section 3 of draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote= : >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> > Hi Frank, >> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >> > tagged >> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other >> > working >> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center = of >> > the >> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more >> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Greg >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts deali= ng >> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e >> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question >> >> on >> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After >> >> carefully >> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion >> >> that >> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM= header=E2=80=9D >> >> is 8 >> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above >> >> mentioned >> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would ad= d >> >> an >> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >> Greg, >> >> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and >> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for >> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and >> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this >> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. >> >> Tom >> >> > >> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >> > >> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; >> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >> >> >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown a= t >> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting addition= al implementations >> >> to >> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread o= n >> >> OOAM >> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OO= AM header. >> >> In >> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions abou= t >> >> the >> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM >> >> mechanisms >> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >> > >> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations >> > you >> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data >> > TLV >> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations >> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem i= n >> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >> > >> >> >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM = header >> >> would >> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a >> >> 8-bit >> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protoc= ols that IOAM data >> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol cod= e >> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >> > >> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], an= d >> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet >> > traversing the underlay. >> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will >> > update >> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite cle= ar >> > in >> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only >> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply= . >> > >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward= with >> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2= =80=93 per >> >> the >> >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ippm mailing list >> >> ippm@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Int-area mailing list >> > Int-area@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> > > > From nobody Thu Apr 12 14:56:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4238512D77A; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:56:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0DhagjZj07z; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7A3712AF83; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id b189-v6so9859200lfe.2; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:56:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FB2yzuZofrNdAYIaFgvxgT+74i3/Ogq/NpHcIQuYhck=; b=E2iZMHJmkdRQcIqejKW8SWbx47v3Wn64x6Cvnv7VfnGvVpfwyrm7h10qb/33RX7BIb 9eSrHgO09kYukhC3AToOIW1MrBxDhzwLIUN+GopnfWBHkcmxE1Yf1GLgMSFUxx9oLxO2 i/PqrhsJY+NTxCL+Txr4cnWyjwDSIZLsfNRWSpph1cjdXjO8EV+UP6wycyyxRZJJ2lUP B3Mn6gyVlPH9PChO45aR2M83XJLnyTmkSpjal8J+7GJSiSan2zV3nNTVOIll5oxcN5rv 3QvOPTQ2MiD7hxIdO8Pia/AMfWoHL5Rm4wD7pufaPPMnoY1I3b7uFTOBdLIr3J5eF9QN p6Tw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FB2yzuZofrNdAYIaFgvxgT+74i3/Ogq/NpHcIQuYhck=; b=reh2+SeyfgaHT/cM9VsKROU0ArYHEq1jWpwZDRzL8jy6NX61k8Ymb4Iwl309WzOp3I 1RP7xE5U/1C3t5XUA7qKNsPV5RhAfDcD39wuzBI8//gB3hs1VfwPnoeX2p2nwv5/N8+4 1Bk+r4aqQ2LAdGvHOgKtnrrZwujD+QVwfBl7jGDBuk0VF8OC3Lnv/Qu+SX/EOOfjUmmZ dEj5qiM2qOHbKWoMVaJcJVyaLPrb+RsUO1CSF9cJEjFU3EOlxhAVwVVdABCuGSPClaX7 a6WTx/b0gN7TWIq1bCQXGABoElhNedO/2JjrB7+NRL92o/5J9j5cJzM4+P7pI7mVGfLi fnpw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tC/wKtNHFv/LITPR7gKQn/LB8vovFZXB8+nl4BJ+msyi6SZkU8z 9XtMxRgTHZevFio4WKAqhrwWKykCRA/oeSlwkXP6Lw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx496q6SLmENT7UR0OFtHSYZWOHkHimJ4uJYXE0QyEuhaqoaiXgPj2Y0x1+X+WE2GkJK3C0Qs6Ovch0tyRRvs6jc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:aacd:: with SMTP id t196-v6mr6860922lfe.60.1523570172975; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:56:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 14:56:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 23:56:12 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f361500569add2e1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:56:19 -0000 --000000000000f361500569add2e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tom, I'll let Frank answer your question as it is on iOAM, not OOAM. Regards, Greg On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:53 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > could you please mention which drafts, iOAM or OOAM, you refer to. Plea= se > > note, that OOAM supports both active and hybrid OAM methods, while iOAM > only > > the latter. > > Section 3 of draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance. > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM, Tom Herbert > wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky > >> wrote: > >> > Hi Frank, > >> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and > >> > tagged > >> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other > >> > working > >> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the cente= r > of > >> > the > >> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have mo= re > >> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Greg > >> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts > dealing > >> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, > >> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). > One > >> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the questi= on > >> >> on > >> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After > >> >> carefully > >> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusio= n > >> >> that > >> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: > >> >> > >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > >> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COO= AM header=E2=80=9D > >> >> is 8 > >> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above > >> >> mentioned > >> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would > add > >> >> an > >> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > >> Greg, > >> > >> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and > >> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four > >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for > >> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and > >> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this > >> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > > >> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > >> > > >> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > >> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > >> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > >> >> > >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown > at > >> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additi= onal > implementations > >> >> to > >> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > >> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread > on > >> >> OOAM > >> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the = OOAM > header. > >> >> In > >> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions > about > >> >> the > >> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM > >> >> mechanisms > >> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Thi= s > >> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specificatio= n. > >> > > >> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementation= s > >> > you > >> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-da= ta > >> > TLV > >> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementatio= ns > >> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem > in > >> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > >> > > >> >> > >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOA= M header > >> >> would > >> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses = a > >> >> 8-bit > >> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some prot= ocols that IOAM > data > >> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol > code > >> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > >> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > >> > > >> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > >> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], > and > >> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > >> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, an= d > >> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > >> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data pack= et > >> > traversing the underlay. > >> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will > >> > update > >> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite > clear > >> > in > >> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not on= ly > >> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo > Request/Reply. > >> > > >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forwa= rd with > >> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2= =80=93 per > >> >> the > >> >> above mentioned drafts. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Regards, Frank > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> ippm mailing list > >> >> ippm@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Int-area mailing list > >> > Int-area@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > >> > > > > > > --000000000000f361500569add2e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tom,
I'll let Frank answer your question as it = is on iOAM, not OOAM.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Ap= r 12, 2018 at 11:53 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> = wrote:
On Thu, Apr 12, 2= 018 at 2:50 PM, Greg Mirsky <gr= egimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
> could you please mention which drafts, iOAM or OOAM, you refer to. Ple= ase
> note, that OOAM supports both active and hybrid OAM methods, while iOA= M only
> the latter.

Section 3 of draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance.<= br>

>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Frank,
>> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-li= ne and
>> > tagged
>> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to wor= k of other
>> > working
>> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in th= e center of
>> > the
>> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we= 'll have more
>> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Greg
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne)<= br> >> > <fbrockne@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several = drafts dealing
>> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols<= br> >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00,
>> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm= -ioam-gre-00). One
>> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was = the question
>> >> on
>> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged= .=C2=A0 After
>> >> carefully
>> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came t= o the conclusion
>> >> that
>> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs= of IOAM:
>> >>
>> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As suc= h, an
>> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The = =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D
>> >> is 8
>> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in t= he above
>> >> mentioned
>> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header appro= ach would add
>> >> an
>> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is signif= icant.
>> Greg,
>>
>> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referen= ced and
>> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four<= br> >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, f= or
>> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, a= nd
>> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see ho= w this
>> adds up to only four bytes of overhead.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> >
>> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Hea= der:
>> >
>> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fiel= ds;
>> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
>> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).
>> >>
>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were = also shown at
>> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expect= ing additional implementations
>> >> to
>> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need ti= mely
>> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the rec= ent thread on
>> >> OOAM
>> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementati= on of the OOAM header.
>> >> In
>> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental qu= estions about
>> >> the
>> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active= OAM
>> >> mechanisms
>> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM h= eader. This
>> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely sp= ecification.
>> >
>> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the i= mplementations
>> > you
>> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use = meta-data
>> > TLV
>> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implem= entations
>> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't = see problem in
>> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protoco= ls the OOAM header
>> >> would
>> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, = OOAM uses a
>> >> 8-bit
>> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol.= Some protocols that IOAM data
>> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next = protocol code
>> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as speci= fied in
>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00.
>> >
>> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section s= tates:
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 New protocols that support overlay networks like= VxLAN-GPE
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gu= e], Geneve
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls= -encapsulation], and
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol pa= yload, e.g.
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, A= dministration, and
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types.=C2= =A0 That ensures that
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with = Overlay data packet
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traversing the underlay.
>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleanin= g nits will
>> > update
>> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are = quite clear
>> > in
>> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using= not only
>> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Requ= est/Reply.
>> >
>> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG m= oves forward with
>> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into pro= tocols =E2=80=93 per
>> >> the
>> >> above mentioned drafts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards, Frank
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> ippm mailing list
>> >> ippm@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/ippm
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Int-area mailing list
>> > Int-area@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/int-area
>> >
>
>

--000000000000f361500569add2e1-- From nobody Thu Apr 12 15:31:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8112912DB6C for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:31:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=barefootnetworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uwE6DF0n7_BG for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x230.google.com (mail-wr0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72F4112D82F for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x230.google.com with SMTP id l13so5502236wrb.5 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:31:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=barefootnetworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=54fnwtVPrwRb9rLy95TfyEXvvXzYtbfPiSi8aJiMycA=; b=G6raDS4nGG5+zIB3DHP6bBsYaJFPmsdTdZfh8CqyO/LR/UcyLkncV7STkN/aBPGH4X PLnkbFQ3Hu9tolh93A5FVtjW0gDWHs0VS66k/W9/Pkqg1zeCJozzfOGvq1/71yXyoEVe g2lA8lhT6K1SXKiLBugXs22CmnqhkZJdQd1NA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=54fnwtVPrwRb9rLy95TfyEXvvXzYtbfPiSi8aJiMycA=; b=kBnCTvZKfuGmJJfN+sGvwToQWgjhmMX5jNZeBmjo4u69ARf0vmWEX6udjhI3ck9X+E 0af1BckQpVZT5MbuJaM+mDKDZTnOiJlnsixAeh8ov+ikyVvXBq9F56JKSkqy5w+Hs/Pr t61egtjaApkBebWks7Yot/buD2Sium5UD11DzvAX8dNQledHtUWoGV59/M0PZbv3OIEO Yj0GrK++jeBfMoz3IB6/zOFV7LP2ojqfZj6I3b5+CyShWvtHplHKIBFhpa6nMiJpXspx VAxZDdOWSBIFbzuqja0F8NZUsB3pHv8ADvJvJF3KAfvbOpO7JBDDv+U3fV+9p6N+Y2Hs q9Xw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBgUg6eomtpskTypXHqXSqUroHIO09mNAT1McA/HGvnYmVGRAyF bfAlv1L0TvbiMPhPm/3l0rPZotuGpTF/3OLYNwi7DA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+eLDKIGQxjZRAaG80LdP85NiHvdm4LuSmGPskfUsqyfzXZFkTG4ETEjtl8kEePaIIo8zWeVth4I9NA/WnDWqw= X-Received: by 10.223.144.227 with SMTP id i90mr1978840wri.100.1523572283950; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:31:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.148.33 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:31:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Mickey Spiegel Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:31:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Greg Mirsky , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c05f484c65ef90569ae5045" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:31:33 -0000 --94eb2c05f484c65ef90569ae5045 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and > tagged > > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other worki= ng > > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center o= f > the > > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more > > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > wrote: > >> > >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealin= g > >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, > >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One > >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on > >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After > carefully > >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion > that > >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: > >> > >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM = header=E2=80=9D > is 8 > >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above > mentioned > >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add > an > >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > Greg, > > I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and > each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four > bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for > instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and > length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this > adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four bytes of IOAM info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM optio= n specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, there are four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen, Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list containing the per hop IOAM information. In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any of the IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another variant of the information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight bytes. > Tom > > > > > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > > > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timestamp block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM. > > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. > > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version field would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. > >> > >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additiona= l implementations > to > >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on > OOAM > >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOA= M header. > In > >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about > the > >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanis= ms > >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations y= ou > > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data > TLV > > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations > > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in > > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > > > >> > >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM h= eader > would > >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a > 8-bit > >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protoco= ls that IOAM data > >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and > > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > > traversing the underlay. > > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will > update > > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite clea= r > in > > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only > > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. > > > >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward = with > >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80= =93 per > the > >> above mentioned drafts. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards, Frank > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ippm mailing list > >> ippm@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --94eb2c05f484c65ef90569ae5045 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert <= ;tom@herbertland.c= om> wrote:
On Thu,= Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and ta= gged
> GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of othe= r working
> groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center = of the
> discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll h= ave more
> opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> <fbrockne@cisco.com> w= rote:
>>
>> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts de= aling
>> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols
>> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00,
>> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre= -00). One
>> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the quest= ion on
>> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 A= fter carefully
>> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the con= clusion that
>> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM:=
>>
>> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an
>> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9CO= OAM header=E2=80=9D is 8
>> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above = mentioned
>> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would= add an
>> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. Greg,

I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four
bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for
instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and
length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this adds up to only four bytes of overhead.

The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four bytes of= IOAM
info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, ther= e are IOAM option
specific fields. For example if doing one of th= e IOAM trace options, there are
four bytes of trace option header= , including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen,
Flags, and RemainingLen= fields. These are followed by the node data list
containing the = per hop IOAM information.

In looking at the OOAM h= eader content, it has nothing to do with any of the
IOAM informat= ion after the first four bytes. It contains another variant of the
information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight b= ytes.


Tom

>
> GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header:
>
> provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;

The flags field only has one def= ined flag at the moment, for a timestamp
block. For IOAM trace we= need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp
block cannot addres= s, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM.
=C2=A0
> supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;

For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough.=
=C2=A0
> is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).

IMO, taking the first two bits of the I= OAM-Type to define a Version field
would be a good thing. This do= es not require adding four more bytes of
overhead. 64 IOAM-Types = is more than enough.
=C2=A0
>>
>> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also show= n at
>> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting addit= ional implementations to
>> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely
>> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent threa= d on OOAM
>> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the= OOAM header. In
>> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions a= bout the
>> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mech= anisms
>> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is
>> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specificati= on.
>
> GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementa= tions you
> refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data= TLV
> in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations=
> already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see probl= em in
> making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree?
>
>>
>> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OO= AM header would
>> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses= a 8-bit
>> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some pro= tocols that IOAM data
>> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol = code
>> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00.
>
> GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GP= E
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Genev= e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-enc= apsulation], and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.= g.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administra= tion, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types.=C2=A0 That en= sures that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay d= ata packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traversing the underlay.
> I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits wi= ll update
> reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite cle= ar in
> identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only=
> common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply= .
>
>> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forw= ard with
>> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols = =E2=80=93 per the
>> above mentioned drafts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards, Frank
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
>
>
> ____________________= ___________________________
> Int-area mailing list
> Int-area@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-ar= ea
>

________________= _______________________________
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([2601:647:4700:1280:545e:76e1:a2c4:28a6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p73sm10288725pfa.43.2018.04.12.17.13.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <008401d3d1ab$2ee8d520$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:13:20 -0700 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, ippm-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <008401d3d1ab$2ee8d520$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> To: "tom p." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 00:13:40 -0000 Tom, First of all, thanks for reviewing the document. See my comments inline = with [mj]. > On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:35 AM, tom p. wrote: >=20 > Some further thoughts on this I-D; I have included the earlier ones = (as > yet unanswered) below. >=20 > typedef test-session-state { > ..... > "Indicates that accepted TWAMP-Test session request."; >=20 > something seems to have been omitted. [mj] Yes. Should be =E2=80=9CIndicates an accepted TWAMP-Test session = request.=E2=80=9D >=20 >=20 > leaf reflector-udp-port { > type uint32 { > range "862 | 49152..65535"; > I am puzzled as to why uint32 is used and inet:port-number is not used > here (happens in two places) [mj] Ok. Will make the change. >=20 >=20 > "Reusable data structure for count which is used both in the Server > container."; >=20 > 'both' suggests to me that there should be a second clause. [mj] Yes, made it "Reusable data structure for count, which is used both = in the Server and the Control-Client.=E2=80=9D >=20 >=20 > "grouping max-count { > leaf max-count { > type uint8 { > range 10..31; > } > default 15;" > contradicts > " ...The default max-count value SHOULD be 32768.' > 32768 is outside the range! >=20 > I think that your problem here is that other TWAMP documentation, such > as the RFC that you quote and reference uses 'max-count' to mean a 32 > bit value but here you are reusing the term with a different semantic > and using it to mean an exponent; rename the object to make it clear > that it is an exponent and not a count e.g. max-count-exp. This occurs > in several places. [mj] Ok. How about we call it 'max-count-exponent=E2=80=99, just to be = explicit? >=20 > "container session-sender { > if-feature session-sender; > presence "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality."; > description > "Configuration of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity"; > leaf admin-state { > type boolean; > mandatory true; > description > "Indicates whether the device is allowed to operate > as a TWAMP Session-Sender."; > " >=20 > A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is that the > admin-state boolean adds here since the presence container "Enables > TWAMP Session-Sender functionality.=E2=80=9D; [mj] Good catch. Will remove the presence statement. >=20 > " container session-reflector { > " > same story here [mj] Ditto. >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom p." > To: > Cc: ; ; > > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 12:40 PM >=20 >=20 >> Some mostly administrative points on this I-D >>=20 >> [I-D.ietf-ippm-metric-registry] is an Informative Reference so would > not >> hold up the production of this as an RFC yet you ask that the text be >> replaced by the RFC number which implies that you do want it held up. > I >> did ask the RFC Editor about this and yes, they would expect to catch > it >> but it would seem simpler if this could be a Normative Reference. = You >> do have the statement up front about replacing the text with the RFC >> number and yes, the RFC Editor like that. [mj] I will drop the editor=E2=80=99s note to replace the RFC number for = I-D.ietf-ippm-metric-registry. >>=20 >> There is no reference, no legend, for Tree Diagrams in 5.1 . There > is >> now an RFC on this, RFC 8340 while RFC8343 s.1.3 is an example of how > to >> reference this RFC. [mj] Will add reference to RFC8340. >>=20 >> There is no copyright statement in the YANG module as is required by >> 6087bis (please, IESG, make this an RFC soon:-) [mj] Ok. Will add it. >>=20 >> leaf server-start-time { >> includes >> The timestamp format follows RFC 1305 >> but I see no RFC 1305 in the references of the I-D [mj] Ok. Will add it in the references, and also in the beginning of = section 5.2. Will do the same for all the other references in the YANG = module. >>=20 >> leaf reflector-udp-port >> " The default number is >> within to the dynamic port range and .. " >> which is not quite English. [mj] Yes. How about =E2=80=9CThe default number is within the dynamic = port range and =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? >>=20 >> "The new well-known port (862) MAY be used."; >> This was allocated in 2008 which seems to stretch the meaning of = =E2=80=98new' [mj] Al, do you want to comment on this? >>=20 >> leaf secret-key { >> type binary; >> I wonder about the choice of binary; elsewhere, e.g. RFC8177, >> hexadecimal is used. >> Are there, should there be, any length constraints on this key? [mj] RFC8177 says that not all vendors support the definition of = key-string as a hexadecimal. Just to be safe, I will make it string. >>=20 >> case poisson { >> ... >> reference >> "RFC 2330: Framework for IP Performance Metrics"; >> RFC2330 I cannot see in the references for the I-D [mj] Will add. >>=20 >> The Security Considerations are not as per the current template e.g. > no >> mention of RESTCONF [mj] Agree. Will update. Cheers. >>=20 >> Tom Petch >>=20 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "The IESG" >> To: "IETF-Announce" >> Cc: ; ; >> >> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 3:57 PM >>=20 >>> The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement > WG >> (ippm) >>> to consider the following document: - 'Two-Way Active Measurement >> Protocol >>> (TWAMP) Data Model' >>> as Proposed Standard >>>=20 >>> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and > solicits >> final >>> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >>> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-27. Exceptionally, comments > may >> be >>> sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the >> beginning of >>> the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >>>=20 >>> Abstract >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This document specifies a data model for client and server >>> implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol > (TWAMP). >>> We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language >>> (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The file can be obtained via >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ >>>=20 >>> IESG discussion can be tracked via >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ballot/ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Thu Apr 12 17:20:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C5F128D2E; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:20:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MLmzsL5IWOHq; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74A3312895E; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 17:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0053301.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w3D0G6O6045627; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 20:19:56 -0400 Received: from tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (sbcsmtp3.sbc.com [144.160.112.28]) by mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2haegnmb7w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 12 Apr 2018 20:19:56 -0400 Received: from enaf.dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3D0JtYo097631; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 19:19:55 -0500 Received: from zlp30495.vci.att.com (zlp30495.vci.att.com [135.46.181.158]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3D0JrpS097622; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 19:19:53 -0500 Received: from zlp30495.vci.att.com (zlp30495.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30495.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 011CF40002F2; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 00:19:53 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (unknown [135.31.184.157]) by zlp30495.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id E5BA740006B6; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 00:19:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3D0Jqwn044337; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 19:19:52 -0500 Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (mail-green.research.att.com [135.207.255.15]) by tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3D0JkRq044174; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 19:19:47 -0500 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njbdcas1.research.att.com [135.197.255.61]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D72E1536; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 20:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njmtexg5.research.att.com ([fe80::b09c:ff13:4487:78b6]) by njbdcas1.research.att.com ([fe80::8c6b:4b77:618f:9a01%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 20:19:43 -0400 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: Mahesh Jethanandani , "tom p." CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Last Call: (Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model) to Proposed Standard Thread-Index: AQHT0arHxvoWqUvVyUeZoRttk23MC6P+GC0A//+9iqA= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 00:19:43 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E7FC7@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <008401d3d1ab$2ee8d520$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [69.141.203.172] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-12_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 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XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com (xch-rtp-009.cisco.com [64.101.220.149]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3D1uCw3008303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Apr 2018 01:56:13 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com (64.101.220.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:56:12 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:56:12 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [nvo3] [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT0okELCmwkoTjo0K66ruEREJj4qP96ksAgABI4oA= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 01:56:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: 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autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NfQyCotVAdKO for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 18:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x236.google.com (mail-yb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3129912D7F1 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 18:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x236.google.com with SMTP id k199-v6so3320450ybk.12 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 18:59:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; 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2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 01:59:47 -0000 On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel wrote: > Tom, > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> > Hi Frank, >> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >> > tagged >> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other >> > working >> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center = of >> > the >> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more >> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Greg >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts deali= ng >> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e >> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question >> >> on >> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After >> >> carefully >> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion >> >> that >> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM= header=E2=80=9D >> >> is 8 >> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above >> >> mentioned >> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would ad= d >> >> an >> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >> Greg, >> >> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and >> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for >> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and >> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this >> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > > > The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four bytes o= f > IOAM > info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM opt= ion > specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, ther= e > are > four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen= , > Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list > containing the per hop IOAM information. > All of that and people are worried about having four extra bytes of overhead? :-) How big are these encapsulation headers in data packets going to be? Tom > In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any of t= he > IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another variant = of > the > information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight > bytes. > >> >> Tom >> >> > >> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >> > >> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > > > The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timestamp > block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp > block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM. > >> >> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > > > For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. > >> >> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > > > IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version field > would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of > overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. > >> >> >> >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown a= t >> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting addition= al implementations >> >> to >> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread o= n >> >> OOAM >> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OO= AM header. >> >> In >> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions abou= t >> >> the >> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM >> >> mechanisms >> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >> > >> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations >> > you >> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data >> > TLV >> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations >> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem i= n >> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >> > >> >> >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM = header >> >> would >> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a >> >> 8-bit >> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protoc= ols that IOAM data >> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol cod= e >> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >> > >> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], an= d >> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet >> > traversing the underlay. >> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will >> > update >> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite cle= ar >> > in >> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only >> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply= . >> > >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward= with >> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2= =80=93 per >> >> the >> >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ippm mailing list >> >> ippm@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Int-area mailing list >> > Int-area@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > From nobody Thu Apr 12 22:18:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 287CE12D93E for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:17:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MPxOTZdnBMcj for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb0-x22a.google.com (mail-yb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F149412D7F8 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id i13-v6so3702668ybl.4 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:17:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sUmey24NZdS7vfnHRBWjRaLNzCpVoPI2x+yXlWUbWgA=; b=Sbm6QGbIawbJzWx7UNYmgBvxSZuW7D2NG2Dj85FMiWhkw3CBaYNXCb8PSZhedyDrnP WmmK+FWmZ6Z1YscCuEc0iQCLtcSqAnO2IhD+2U9zj+EaZx373vzNf8EYifZtCUk5Ss6l TGfcExFJnlT6ST1jLzHTox12j7+83MNd20bamJnObMcRI3lnIV9EEHzy1GejN8Pfgc/H DaqIESm8YLnzraTx38IntZ/Z/q0lI67qOWse7o/1HyvB4nLL1YVVK7QS/5cdIsoNWiUS MLNgc/a91kzbIfcGLAO6TwPaCkeyuldljpWwBFSWLn3v/C6x+1mmwMKecOsoArij5vZa 4mkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sUmey24NZdS7vfnHRBWjRaLNzCpVoPI2x+yXlWUbWgA=; b=OUq97Da7C0Iq+73Pvh1X606m1YRkHfoH/SGTy3jEkjX0dKH3Y/K1V+FFFcyT5nGvRw QiWCi/teWSfDEcaQn6r55dDQ2jiEguK5JzMNmEJCM9a3oxuwOQ1IimQjmmbN8PE2Z+hj QT/LpQ9JI8uZl945d06a5MH4fddm8E3x5VWBIyLjM9Dk0+dcO6QKQaH9+Mqw6HJTPA2d tfu6j26KRtwA1tZJrIIKPkmls5Y+reuGYp8lUf6VghT1RHFmkPOE/pMkSGqliJI5NCnY NCOXh1zA/Pd2MH3hX6SnxKjNn55Gw9jEopXCDjZ7nKOKZoPqpQTYXqgaPNCuc/h2lbcL Yl4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBbGNdaysnKezeCOn3lKwOKXncZs3bx/VOQ2gD5cpbyzsfOJhL5 hgt0KS1o8cRjEcc1Za2fIJU3x2OVQTFxYacj/xDMmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/SbrRovuGFyKUCHjips16i6iURR+Xa6tK4aC++49FkJBFBp0fDJYzYeQgh6YrRxb4HJyT4ilnvfODeCZV6+Y4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:b2a3:: with SMTP id k35-v6mr3203144ybj.259.1523596641773; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:17:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.26.135 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:17:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 22:17:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mickey Spiegel Cc: Greg Mirsky , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:17:30 -0000 Mickey, Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more fundamental concern. In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text in the introduction: "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] encapsulation." I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traverse the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP port number would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an intermediate device might be looking for UDP packets destined to port 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is correct, then this is a problem. UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers are meaningful only at the endpoints." If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that this would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tries to interpret. I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or encapsulation. Thanks, Tom On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel wrote: > Tom, > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> > Hi Frank, >> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >> > tagged >> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other >> > working >> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center = of >> > the >> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more >> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Greg >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts deali= ng >> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e >> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question >> >> on >> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After >> >> carefully >> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion >> >> that >> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM= header=E2=80=9D >> >> is 8 >> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above >> >> mentioned >> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would ad= d >> >> an >> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >> Greg, >> >> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and >> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for >> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and >> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this >> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > > > The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four bytes o= f > IOAM > info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM opt= ion > specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, ther= e > are > four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen= , > Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list > containing the per hop IOAM information. > > In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any of t= he > IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another variant = of > the > information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight > bytes. > >> >> Tom >> >> > >> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >> > >> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > > > The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timestamp > block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp > block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM. > >> >> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > > > For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. > >> >> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > > > IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version field > would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of > overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. > >> >> >> >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown a= t >> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting addition= al implementations >> >> to >> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread o= n >> >> OOAM >> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OO= AM header. >> >> In >> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions abou= t >> >> the >> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM >> >> mechanisms >> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >> > >> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations >> > you >> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data >> > TLV >> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations >> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem i= n >> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >> > >> >> >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM = header >> >> would >> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a >> >> 8-bit >> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protoc= ols that IOAM data >> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol cod= e >> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >> > >> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], an= d >> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet >> > traversing the underlay. >> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will >> > update >> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite cle= ar >> > in >> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only >> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply= . >> > >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward= with >> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2= =80=93 per >> >> the >> >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ippm mailing list >> >> ippm@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Int-area mailing list >> > Int-area@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > From nobody Thu Apr 12 23:29:26 2018 Return-Path: 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Thread-Topic: [Int-area] [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AdPRe/DslDwu34XkSmq8g6ttV3Kt0QBLOKqAAAo10AAAACGHgAAAGEoAAAdNUeA= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 06:28:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.117.7] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 06:29:04 -0000 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> > >> This was allocated in 2008 which seems to stretch the meaning of ‘new' > > > > [mj] Al, do you want to comment on this? > > > [acm] > Yes, I'll comment. > > The UDP well-known port will have a new allocation, > changing from TWAMP-CONTROL to TWAMP-TEST. > > Incidentally, the progress of that draft is also a dependency, > but it is ready to ship (a small typo was identified in London, > and the new draft has been available since). Al In which case, I think that that draft draft-ietf-ippm-port-twamp-test needs to be a Normative Reference from draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang and should appear in the description clause, replacing the reference to 'new port' along with a note up-front to the RFC Editor asking them to replace all mentions of draft-ietf-ippm-port-twamp-test with the RFC number of that I-D when it is allocated. I find that the use of 'new' is rarely a good idea - road signs near me talk of a 'new' road layout that is now 10 years old - unless there is a clear date, explicit or implicit associated with it; and the reallocation of the use of a port is IMHO a significant change that needs calling out - the YANG module makes references to RFC 5357 and I think it is asking too much for users to track down another RFC that updates RFC 5357 in order to see the change. Tom Petch > Al > From nobody Fri Apr 13 04:48:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96301242F7; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 04:48:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9eGZGQB9hJwU; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 04:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur01on0709.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe02::709]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 020F51270A3; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 04:48:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-btconnect-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=n0MvCcxjuBcXTjVj2iw2t4XskuYFRf+ZzQ96mKuAoKA=; b=g2tJiUZrZi+TqwgUjGT1e4v9DRLRJTM1VSSKaLSsuEVUtmepi04TTQrE8OhWvhpXDiFNRdhiPIa/bLU8/MgEWO+mgcX9teAk7Vg1zYiQCJizF3lGjQTbTZHl7ooqXzK0Ef3HWeXWswW9KQnKOI73lbcmRKDNvClVtyxf5U9Mk6E= Received: from pc6 (86.165.129.75) by AM5PR0701MB2337.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:203:e::7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.696.5; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:48:01 +0000 Message-ID: <04f301d3d31d$2df639a0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: "tom p." 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Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mahesh Jethanandani" Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 1:13 AM Tom, First of all, thanks for reviewing the document. See my comments inline with [mj]. > On Apr 11, 2018, at 8:35 AM, tom p. wrote: > > Some further thoughts on this I-D; I have included the earlier ones (as > yet unanswered) below. > > typedef test-session-state { > ..... > "Indicates that accepted TWAMP-Test session request."; > > something seems to have been omitted. [mj] Yes. Should be “Indicates an accepted TWAMP-Test session request.” > > > leaf reflector-udp-port { > type uint32 { > range "862 | 49152..65535"; > I am puzzled as to why uint32 is used and inet:port-number is not used > here (happens in two places) [mj] Ok. Will make the change. > > > "Reusable data structure for count which is used both in the Server > container."; > > 'both' suggests to me that there should be a second clause. [mj] Yes, made it "Reusable data structure for count, which is used both in the Server and the Control-Client.” > > > "grouping max-count { > leaf max-count { > type uint8 { > range 10..31; > } > default 15;" > contradicts > " ...The default max-count value SHOULD be 32768.' > 32768 is outside the range! > > I think that your problem here is that other TWAMP documentation, such > as the RFC that you quote and reference uses 'max-count' to mean a 32 > bit value but here you are reusing the term with a different semantic > and using it to mean an exponent; rename the object to make it clear > that it is an exponent and not a count e.g. max-count-exp. This occurs > in several places. [mj] Ok. How about we call it 'max-count-exponent’, just to be explicit? > > "container session-sender { > if-feature session-sender; > presence "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality."; > description > "Configuration of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity"; > leaf admin-state { > type boolean; > mandatory true; > description > "Indicates whether the device is allowed to operate > as a TWAMP Session-Sender."; > " > > A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is that the > admin-state boolean adds here since the presence container "Enables > TWAMP Session-Sender functionality.”; [mj] Good catch. Will remove the presence statement. > > " container session-reflector { > " > same story here [mj] Ditto. > > Tom Petch > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom p." > To: > Cc: ; ; > > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 12:40 PM > > >> Some mostly administrative points on this I-D >> >> [I-D.ietf-ippm-metric-registry] is an Informative Reference so would > not >> hold up the production of this as an RFC yet you ask that the text be >> replaced by the RFC number which implies that you do want it held up. > I >> did ask the RFC Editor about this and yes, they would expect to catch > it >> but it would seem simpler if this could be a Normative Reference. You >> do have the statement up front about replacing the text with the RFC >> number and yes, the RFC Editor like that. [mj] I will drop the editor’s note to replace the RFC number for I-D.ietf-ippm-metric-registry. >> >> There is no reference, no legend, for Tree Diagrams in 5.1 . There > is >> now an RFC on this, RFC 8340 while RFC8343 s.1.3 is an example of how > to >> reference this RFC. [mj] Will add reference to RFC8340. >> >> There is no copyright statement in the YANG module as is required by >> 6087bis (please, IESG, make this an RFC soon:-) [mj] Ok. Will add it. >> >> leaf server-start-time { >> includes >> The timestamp format follows RFC 1305 >> but I see no RFC 1305 in the references of the I-D [mj] Ok. Will add it in the references, and also in the beginning of section 5.2. Will do the same for all the other references in the YANG module. >> >> leaf reflector-udp-port >> " The default number is >> within to the dynamic port range and .. " >> which is not quite English. [mj] Yes. How about “The default number is within the dynamic port range and …”? >> >> "The new well-known port (862) MAY be used."; >> This was allocated in 2008 which seems to stretch the meaning of ‘new' [mj] Al, do you want to comment on this? >> >> leaf secret-key { >> type binary; >> I wonder about the choice of binary; elsewhere, e.g. RFC8177, >> hexadecimal is used. >> Are there, should there be, any length constraints on this key? [mj] RFC8177 says that not all vendors support the definition of key-string as a hexadecimal. Just to be safe, I will make it string. >> >> case poisson { >> ... >> reference >> "RFC 2330: Framework for IP Performance Metrics"; >> RFC2330 I cannot see in the references for the I-D [mj] Will add. >> >> The Security Considerations are not as per the current template e.g. > no >> mention of RESTCONF [mj] Agree. Will update. Cheers. >> >> Tom Petch >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "The IESG" >> To: "IETF-Announce" >> Cc: ; ; >> >> Sent: Monday, April 09, 2018 3:57 PM From nobody Fri Apr 13 05:58:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B39120454; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MHZayMqSM_Zj; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 743A41200C1; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049458.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. 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Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 1:58 PM > Tom, see end... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" > > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 1:19 AM > > > > ... > > > > >> "The new well-known port (862) MAY be used."; > > > > >> This was allocated in 2008 which seems to stretch the meaning of > > ‘new' > > > > > > > > [mj] Al, do you want to comment on this? > > > > > > > [acm] > > > Yes, I'll comment. > > > > > > The UDP well-known port will have a new allocation, > > > changing from TWAMP-CONTROL to TWAMP-TEST. > > > > > > Incidentally, the progress of that draft is also a dependency, > > > but it is ready to ship (a small typo was identified in London, > > > and the new draft has been available since). > > > > Al > > > > In which case, I think that that draft > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-port-twamp-test > > > > needs to be a Normative Reference from > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang > > > > and should appear in the description clause, replacing the reference to > > 'new port' > > > > along with a note up-front to the RFC Editor asking them to replace all > > mentions of > > draft-ietf-ippm-port-twamp-test > > with the RFC number of that I-D when it is allocated. > > > > I find that the use of 'new' is rarely a good idea - road signs near me > > talk of a 'new' road layout that is now 10 years old - unless there is a > > clear date, explicit or implicit associated with it; and the > > reallocation of the use of a port is IMHO a significant change that > > needs calling out - the YANG module makes references to RFC 5357 and I > > think it is asking too much for users to track down another RFC that > > updates RFC 5357 in order to see the change. > > > > Tom Petch > > > [acm] > I suggest: > The well-known port (862) allocated in RFC YYYY MAY be used. > > RFC Editor: replace RFC YYYY with the RFC number of > draft-ietf-ippm-port-twamp-test when it is allocated. Yes, that is fine for the description clause; RFC YYYY will still need to be in the References of the I-D, since it appears in the YANG module and those are the rules for a YANG module, and so will need to appear somewhere in the body of the text as well, lest it is flagged by nits as an unused reference (Mahesh is already fixing this for RFC1305 and RFC2330). I did check with the RFC Editor and they said that they preferred notes asking them to do replacements to be up-front, in one place, and not spread throughout the I-D - hence my comment before about up-front. Tom Petch > > > Al From nobody Fri Apr 13 11:22:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A4712D883 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:22:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=barefootnetworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L_YgUqSgZZx6 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x231.google.com (mail-wr0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45ACE127201 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x231.google.com with SMTP id l49so10348584wrl.4 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:22:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=barefootnetworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Pl4WONeqhdnr0wnxi+C1+GEPOqNofzvGDqGkv0g6M5s=; b=H5hM10SFYDe2wSuA+ONzXAnQWpiUgYOUHJL70KlcgE7nNu+eFksWfGZH2ilFgsWr8s StJjaipdZIoZQwnrXfFidkluoWT/CEGctF3bzFryeBSZfBFS8kXwUPGMXNKso42lTtgp YMMezbJTL7efw+0nNkc7WHSGjDTvhxiKn2F28= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Pl4WONeqhdnr0wnxi+C1+GEPOqNofzvGDqGkv0g6M5s=; b=hS3B1V4fKcFonH/wlSqctvSkB1SPyOnRKfnjztlGEQ8ZkxptrMv1wUMLwajgx1uHd3 elsWVDug4tCWQxNRdXe7hyZ33dgu/qM1CfAjIiBqhCFCwTjap8qtvwQDBz2bL93Pt9Rk FFZiAWdVXgnB0o1UpVj4e7MRoKTk2c3v7PbFXWe9PvB6HxIQGqJ/t16Z3XAcYkWv3bvV OXR+AsznbnQTSkzMii8m3GMWB/6Jr9gqDrk2NoI/VwFiSFewhrY4KgdQGbEJCFOu6hSY mDJQQ/8sIJk8IcSG/Ubr0WCOXNNf4MPZTQGCpEYbi3zhzTTOn6fGleztID3M67qE54eO qALA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tB+DCXAfZYq1CpxeRQa8lvV/mQGldBJEMUHQ0e9DWTqpIRIcE8L 8ufoeS1KXDDP84hoiXzMphXsCE/oaI+mpc511Gl/Zw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49BSpuZwJdyD7QBkUzA/nLTXpneptVN7D6HULlZsLC+bIuBcum/c/LYHeqI5BBgtyHOP4ScUBzeehcJPqs9F6Q= X-Received: by 10.223.144.227 with SMTP id i90mr4501027wri.100.1523643736737; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:22:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.148.33 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:22:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Mickey Spiegel Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 11:22:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Greg Mirsky , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c05f484b160be0569bef399" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 18:22:27 -0000 --94eb2c05f484b160be0569bef399 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > Mickey, > > Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more > fundamental concern. > > In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text > in the introduction: > > "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while > the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" > refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data > packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically > dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are > transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] > encapsulation." > > I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traverse > the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being > Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP > port number would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an > intermediate device might be looking for UDP packets destined to port > 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is > correct, then this is a problem. > > UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device > may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not > actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: > > "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. > It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers > -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers > are meaningful only at the endpoints." > > If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then > misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A > protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that this > would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tries to > interpret. > The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet traverses to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option, but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary depending on the transport. In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or VXLAN rather than NSH. > I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this > application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and > they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or > encapsulation. > IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been broken out into a separate draft. Mickey > Thanks, > Tom > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel > wrote: > > Tom, > > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert > wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky > >> wrote: > >> > Hi Frank, > >> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and > >> > tagged > >> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other > >> > working > >> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the cente= r > of > >> > the > >> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have mo= re > >> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Greg > >> > > >> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts > dealing > >> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, > >> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). > One > >> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the questi= on > >> >> on > >> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After > >> >> carefully > >> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusio= n > >> >> that > >> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: > >> >> > >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > >> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COO= AM header=E2=80=9D > >> >> is 8 > >> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above > >> >> mentioned > >> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would > add > >> >> an > >> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > >> Greg, > >> > >> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and > >> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four > >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for > >> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and > >> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this > >> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > > > > > > The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four bytes > of > > IOAM > > info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM > option > > specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, > there > > are > > four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, > NodeLen, > > Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data lis= t > > containing the per hop IOAM information. > > > > In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any of > the > > IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another varian= t > of > > the > > information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight > > bytes. > > > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > > >> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > >> > > >> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > > > > > > The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timestam= p > > block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp > > block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM. > > > >> > >> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > > > > > > For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. > > > >> > >> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > > > > > > IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version fie= ld > > would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of > > overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. > > > >> > >> >> > >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown > at > >> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additi= onal > implementations > >> >> to > >> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > >> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread > on > >> >> OOAM > >> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the = OOAM > header. > >> >> In > >> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions > about > >> >> the > >> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM > >> >> mechanisms > >> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Thi= s > >> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specificatio= n. > >> > > >> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementation= s > >> > you > >> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-da= ta > >> > TLV > >> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementatio= ns > >> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem > in > >> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > >> > > >> >> > >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOA= M header > >> >> would > >> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses = a > >> >> 8-bit > >> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some prot= ocols that IOAM > data > >> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol > code > >> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > >> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > >> > > >> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > >> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], > and > >> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > >> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, an= d > >> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > >> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data pack= et > >> > traversing the underlay. > >> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will > >> > update > >> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite > clear > >> > in > >> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not on= ly > >> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo > Request/Reply. > >> > > >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forwa= rd with > >> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2= =80=93 per > >> >> the > >> >> above mentioned drafts. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Regards, Frank > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> ippm mailing list > >> >> ippm@ietf.org > >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Int-area mailing list > >> > Int-area@ietf.org > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ippm mailing list > >> ippm@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > > --94eb2c05f484b160be0569bef399 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert <= ;tom@herbertland.c= om> wrote:
Mickey,

Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more
fundamental concern.

In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text=
in the introduction:

"In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while the packet traverses a particular network domain.=C2=A0 The term "in-s= itu"
refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data
packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically
dedicated to OAM.=C2=A0 This document defines how IOAM data fields are
transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve]
encapsulation."

I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traverse
the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being
Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP
port number would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an
intermediate device might be looking for UDP packets destined to port
6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is
correct, then this is a problem.

UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device
may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not
actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605:

"...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers
-- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers
are meaningful only at the endpoints."

If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then
misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A
protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that this
would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tries to
interpret.

The intention is to allow fo= r multiple nodes that a packet traverses
to be able to insert IOA= M node information in the same trace option,
but leave some flexi= bility regarding which nodes actually do the
IOAM processing and = the node information. This may vary
depending on the transport.

In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve = or VXLAN,
there may still be multiple hops. For example a network= may use
Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with= L3
processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case=
many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet
would contain IOAM node information from two nodes.

Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or
<= div>VXLAN rather than NSH.


I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this
application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and
they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or
encapsulation.

IPv6 hop-by-hop options = has been considered. See
draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05.= This has not yet been
broken out into a separate draft.

Mickey


Thanks,
Tom


On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel
<mspiegel@barefootnetwo= rks.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Frank,
>> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-li= ne and
>> > tagged
>> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to wor= k of other
>> > working
>> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in th= e center of
>> > the
>> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we= 'll have more
>> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Greg
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne)<= br> >> > <fbrockne@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several = drafts dealing
>> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols<= br> >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00,
>> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm= -ioam-gre-00). One
>> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was = the question
>> >> on
>> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged= .=C2=A0 After
>> >> carefully
>> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came t= o the conclusion
>> >> that
>> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs= of IOAM:
>> >>
>> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As suc= h, an
>> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The = =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D
>> >> is 8
>> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in t= he above
>> >> mentioned
>> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header appro= ach would add
>> >> an
>> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is signif= icant.
>> Greg,
>>
>> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referen= ced and
>> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four<= br> >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, f= or
>> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, a= nd
>> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see ho= w this
>> adds up to only four bytes of overhead.
>
>
> The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four byte= s of
> IOAM
> info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM = option
> specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, t= here
> are
> four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, Node= Len,
> Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data li= st
> containing the per hop IOAM information.
>
> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any o= f the
> IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another varia= nt of
> the
> information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eigh= t
> bytes.
>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> >
>> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Hea= der:
>> >
>> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fiel= ds;
>
>
> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timesta= mp
> block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp<= br> > block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM.<= br> >
>>
>> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
>
>
> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough.
>
>>
>> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).
>
>
> IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version fi= eld
> would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of=
> overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough.
>
>>
>> >>
>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were = also shown at
>> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expect= ing additional implementations
>> >> to
>> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need ti= mely
>> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the rec= ent thread on
>> >> OOAM
>> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementati= on of the OOAM header.
>> >> In
>> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental qu= estions about
>> >> the
>> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active= OAM
>> >> mechanisms
>> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM h= eader. This
>> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely sp= ecification.
>> >
>> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the i= mplementations
>> > you
>> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use = meta-data
>> > TLV
>> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implem= entations
>> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't = see problem in
>> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protoco= ls the OOAM header
>> >> would
>> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, = OOAM uses a
>> >> 8-bit
>> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol.= Some protocols that IOAM data
>> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next = protocol code
>> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as speci= fied in
>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00.
>> >
>> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section s= tates:
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 New protocols that support overlay networks like= VxLAN-GPE
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gu= e], Geneve
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls= -encapsulation], and
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol pa= yload, e.g.
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, A= dministration, and
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types.=C2= =A0 That ensures that
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with = Overlay data packet
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traversing the underlay.
>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleanin= g nits will
>> > update
>> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are = quite clear
>> > in
>> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using= not only
>> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Requ= est/Reply.
>> >
>> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG m= oves forward with
>> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into pro= tocols =E2=80=93 per
>> >> the
>> >> above mentioned drafts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards, Frank
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> ippm mailing list
>> >> ippm@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/ippm
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Int-area mailing list
>> > Int-area@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/int-area
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>
>

--94eb2c05f484b160be0569bef399-- From nobody Fri Apr 13 13:32:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0BF127978; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 13:32:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mcNEU_tOqwfb; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 13:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58989129515; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 13:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 22BC3D7A73901; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 21:32:39 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 21:32:40 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBB.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.91]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.179]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 13:32:34 -0700 From: Uma Chunduri To: Mickey Spiegel , Tom Herbert CC: Greg Mirsky , NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [sfc] [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT01Rv/8zdN25zjECovFVjh39kLaP/JHDg Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 20:32:33 +0000 Message-ID: <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685413553740@SJCEML521-MBB.china.huawei.com> References: 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13 Apr 2018 17:55:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.48.35 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 17:55:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 17:55:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mickey Spiegel Cc: Greg Mirsky , NVO3 , int-area@ietf.org, Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 00:55:43 -0000 On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:22 AM, Mickey Spiegel wrote: > Tom, > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert wrote= : >> >> Mickey, >> >> Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more >> fundamental concern. >> >> In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text >> in the introduction: >> >> "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while >> the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" >> refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data >> packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically >> dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are >> transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] >> encapsulation." >> >> I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traverse >> the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being >> Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP >> port number would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an >> intermediate device might be looking for UDP packets destined to port >> 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is >> correct, then this is a problem. >> >> UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device >> may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not >> actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: >> >> "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. >> It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers >> -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers >> are meaningful only at the endpoints." >> >> If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then >> misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A >> protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that this >> would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tries to >> interpret. > > > The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet traverses > to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option, > but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the > IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary > depending on the transport. > > In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, > there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use > Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 > processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case > many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet > would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. > Mickey, Thanks, for the explanation. The requirements around this are not clear in the drafts so I would suggest that be clarified. Intermediate nodes should never look at, much less change, transport layer data for packets for which they are not the addressee (we've already seen several instances of implemenations skirting these rules out of convenience!) One other nit: I don't think a six page I-D really needs twelve authors! Please consider reducing the number to only the major contributors. Tom > Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or > VXLAN rather than NSH. > >> >> I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this >> application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and >> they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or >> encapsulation. > > > IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See > draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been > broken out into a separate draft. > > Mickey > >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel >> wrote: >> > Tom, >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi Frank, >> >> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >> >> > tagged >> >> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other >> >> > working >> >> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the cent= er >> >> > of >> >> > the >> >> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have >> >> > more >> >> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > Greg >> >> > >> >> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts >> >> >> dealing >> >> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> >> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). >> >> >> One >> >> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the >> >> >> question >> >> >> on >> >> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged. After >> >> >> carefully >> >> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusi= on >> >> >> that >> >> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> >> >> >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> >> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9CO= OAM >> >> >> header=E2=80=9D >> >> >> is 8 >> >> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above >> >> >> mentioned >> >> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would >> >> >> add >> >> >> an >> >> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >> >> Greg, >> >> >> >> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and >> >> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four >> >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for >> >> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and >> >> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this >> >> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. >> > >> > >> > The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four byte= s >> > of >> > IOAM >> > info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM >> > option >> > specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, >> > there >> > are >> > four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, >> > NodeLen, >> > Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data li= st >> > containing the per hop IOAM information. >> > >> > In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any o= f >> > the >> > IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another varia= nt >> > of >> > the >> > information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eigh= t >> > bytes. >> > >> >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> > >> >> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >> >> > >> >> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; >> > >> > >> > The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timesta= mp >> > block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp >> > block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM. >> > >> >> >> >> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >> > >> > >> > For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. >> > >> >> >> >> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >> > >> > >> > IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version >> > field >> > would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of >> > overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also show= n >> >> >> at >> >> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting addit= ional >> >> >> implementations >> >> >> to >> >> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> >> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent threa= d >> >> >> on >> >> >> OOAM >> >> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the= OOAM >> >> >> header. >> >> >> In >> >> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions >> >> >> about >> >> >> the >> >> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM >> >> >> mechanisms >> >> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is >> >> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specificati= on. >> >> > >> >> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementatio= ns >> >> > you >> >> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use >> >> > meta-data >> >> > TLV >> >> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these >> >> > implementations >> >> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see proble= m >> >> > in >> >> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OO= AM header >> >> >> would >> >> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses= a >> >> >> 8-bit >> >> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some pro= tocols that IOAM >> >> >> data >> >> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol >> >> >> code >> >> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> >> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >> >> > >> >> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >> >> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >> >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >> >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], >> >> > and >> >> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >> >> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, a= nd >> >> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >> >> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data >> >> > packet >> >> > traversing the underlay. >> >> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits wil= l >> >> > update >> >> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite >> >> > clear >> >> > in >> >> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not >> >> > only >> >> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo >> >> > Request/Reply. >> >> > >> >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forw= ard with >> >> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols = =E2=80=93 >> >> >> per >> >> >> the >> >> >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> ippm mailing list >> >> >> ippm@ietf.org >> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Int-area mailing list >> >> > Int-area@ietf.org >> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ippm mailing list >> >> ippm@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> > >> > > > From nobody Sat Apr 14 11:54:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34091200A0; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 11:54:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=pobox.com; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=heard@pobox.com header.d=pobox.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wZB6buZmBGxL; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 11:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com (pb-smtp1.pobox.com [64.147.108.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7DCA124234; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9111E864D; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:54:25 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; s=sasl; bh=JZq qTjqPNRgJK7TRKxhTpI2l0Wk=; b=F5i8ElmCTvR1/uXYu+gpeJ99Ms/mq4LBRqU uq2Hol28OSQv7wrztz4QdtAJdNZO1cNJX0GR2lXH+24FgDkKPG6umuO88m+asDqm QVtGj2JFLD+k50VL8Z9wYgnoEXU9Vo22+1MI7p7ebeXeZt1LI6eXy6zvAgGND1Jw vo4kxTVI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; q=dns; s=sasl; b= M8YRUJ/aQADOvR73WLFIWYLF6NaqWyW7E5gKSHu5M0lzeltbknF22YAlbSw/JYXm 94ci/Se+V/2AyfshaB1BWqcv+MzOyM4bnfm+SRg7mt/dTp9G/0UyvxO6aX8eMbQN Q/C0joLq7Tvu9yQE1SCwfSzIl34wQEYZtWKu5HGGDRw= Received: from pb-smtp1.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1238E864C; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-ot0-f175.google.com (unknown [74.125.82.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5CE65E864B; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot0-f175.google.com with SMTP id y46-v6so13301694otd.4; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 11:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDtjFsN63F+Wsh0rx/OdL+z0uMd4h+D0U1/quPXdeI0ONBDBFc8 JhHL6ilMVzGOzduL2xcRpFjOvsH1Eise4pgyNv4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48oMKDylPdwqOaCzeLMiQQDJyVhZxOHHUIQQ4YShcK68z36j4rHDggVrw6BhgTc2iku21W5pLLZuJUfXfo4Epk= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:61c5:: with SMTP id h5-v6mr6971483otk.53.1523732064678; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 11:54:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.136.194 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 11:54:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "C. M. Heard" Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 11:54:04 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: IETF Cc: IPPM , 6man Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000072c6a20569d38445" X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 4069AB2A-4015-11E8-98FA-44CE1968708C-06080547!pb-smtp1.pobox.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 18:54:31 -0000 --00000000000072c6a20569d38445 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Greetings, I have some last call comments on this document. Most (but not all) focus on aspects that do not respect RFC 8200 and RFC 8201. The Abstract says: [...] Exemplary use cases include, but are not limited to IPv4-IPv6 translation, NAT, protocol encapsulation, IPv6 header compression, or use of IPv6 over Low-Power Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN). These last two use cases, however, are explicitly excluded in Section 4: [...] Because of these reasons we consider ROHC and 6LowPAN packets to be out of the scope of this document. On that basis, it seems that the last two use cases in the Abstract should be removed. Other places in the draft that IPv6 header compression also need to be looked at. Section 3, page 3, next to last paragraph, has a reference "Diffserv [RFC2780]" -- shouldn't that be "Diffserv [RFC2474]"? Section 3, page 4, third paragraph, says: [...] For example, the packet length will change if IP headers are converted to the alternate version/address family, or if optional Extension Headers are added or removed. [...] Adding or removing extension headers contravenes RFC 8200. Since this is just an example, I would recommend deleting the controversial second clause. Section 4, page 6, last paragraph, and page 7, first paragraph, say: The topic of IPv6 Extension Headers brings current controversies into focus as noted by [RFC6564 ] and [RFC7045 ]. However, measurement use cases in the context of the IPPM framework like in-situ OAM in enterprise environments or IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics (PDM) Destination Option measurements [RFC8250 ] can benefit from inspection, modification, addition or deletion of IPv6 extension headers in hosts along the measurement path. As a particular use case, hosts on the path may store sending and intermediate timestamps into dedicated extension headers to support measurements, monitoring, auditing, or reproducibility in critical environments. [RFC8250 ] endorses the use and manipulation of IPv6 extension headers for measurement purposes, consistent with other approved IETF specifications. These two paragraphs are very problematic and IMNSHO need a complete rewrite before publication. As noted in a review by Fred Baker on 2016-07-14 of an earlier version (see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/8sgikiZbSiD4v2VeKK_FA7TkjmM), the first sentence of the first paragraph above dates the document, and in fact these controversies have largely been put to rest by RFC 8200. Specifically, insertion or deletion of extension headers by intermediate nodes is forbidden by RFC 8200. So is modification of extension headers other than modifiable options contained within the Hop by Hop Options Header. An IPv6 hop-by-hop option somewhat along the lines of the IPv4 timestamp option could, in principle, be defined, but so far none has been. The option defined in RFC 8250 is a destination option and is not allowed to change in flight, and I see nothing in RFC 8250 that discusses the storing of intermediate timestamps by nodes (note, nodes, not hosts) on the path. If this is wrong, I would appreciate a pointer to the text in RFC 8250 that says otherwise. Section 4, page 7, fifth paragraph says: o Extension Header insertion or deletion: It is possible that Extension Headers could be added to, or removed from the header chain. The resulting packet may be standard-formed, with a corresponding Type-P. This paragraph gives the impression that insertion or deletion of extension headers is sanctioned by IETF standards, which is not true. If instead of "It is possible ..." it said something like "Despite the fact that such behavior does not comply with RFC 8200, it is possible ..." I would not find it objectionable. Section 4, page 7, next-to-last paragraph says: [...] Path MTU Discovery for IP version 6 (PMTUD, [RFC8201 ]) or Packetization Layer Path MTU Discovery (PLPMTUD, [RFC4821 ]) is recommended to prevent fragmentation (or ICMP error messages) as a result of IPv6 extension header manipulation. The trailing clause "(or ICMP error messages) as a result of IPv6 extension header manipulation" should be removed, as it is just plain wrong. PMTUD relies on ICMP Packet Too Big messages for proper operation, and in-flight increases in packet length due to insertion of extension headers actually break PTMTUD. Section 5, page 8, next-to-last paragraph says: o Modification or addition of headers or header field values in intermediate nodes. As noted in Section 4 for IPv6 extension header manipulation, NAT, IPv4-IPv6 transitioning or IPv6 header compression mechanisms may result in changes of the measurement packets' Type-P, too. Consequently, hosts along the measurement path may treat packets differently because of the Type-P modification. Measurements at observation points along the path may also need extra context to uniquely identify a packet. If the changes I recommend above are implemented, it will be necessary to remove the clause "As noted in Section 4 for IPv6 extension header manipulation," Mike Heard On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:21:43 -0700, The IESG wrote: > The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (ippm) > to consider the following document: - 'IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for > IPPM's Active Metric Framework' > as Informational RFC > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > ietf at ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-25. Exceptionally, comments may be > sent to iesg at ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of > the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > Abstract > > This memo updates the IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Framework RFC > 2330 with new considerations for measurement methodology and testing. > It updates the definition of standard-formed packets in RFC 2330 to > include IPv6 packets, deprecates the definition of minimum standard- > formed packet, and augments distinguishing aspects of packets, > referred to as Type-P for test packets in RFC 2330. This memo > identifies that IPv4-IPv6 co-existence can challenge measurements > within the scope of the IPPM Framework. Exemplary use cases include, > but are not limited to IPv4-IPv6 translation, NAT, protocol > encapsulation, IPv6 header compression, or use of IPv6 over Low-Power > Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN). > > The file can be obtained viahttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6/ > > IESG discussion can be tracked viahttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6/ballot/ > > No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D. > > --00000000000072c6a20569d38445 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings,

I have some last call commen= ts on this document. Most (but not all) focus on aspects that do not respec= t RFC 8200 and RFC 8201.

The Abstract says:

   [...] Exemplary use cases include,
   but are not limited to IPv4-IPv6 translation, NAT, protocol
   encapsulation, IPv6 header compression, or use of IPv6 over Low-Power
   Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN).

These last two use cases, however, are expl= icitly excluded in Section 4:

   [...] Because of these reasons we
   consider ROHC and 6LowPAN packets to be out of the scope of this
   document.

On that basis, it seems that th= e last two use cases in the Abstract should be removed. Other places in the= draft that IPv6 header compression also need to be looked at.
Section 3, page 3, next to last paragraph, has a reference &qu= ot;Diffserv [RFC2780]" -- shouldn't that be "Diffserv [RFC247= 4]"?

Section 3, page 4, third paragraph, says= :

   [...] For example, the packet length will
   change if IP headers are converted to the alternate version/address
   family, or if optional E=
xtension Headers are added or removed. [...]

Adding or removing extension headers contravenes RFC 8200. Since th= is is just an example, I would recommend deleting the controversial second = clause.

Section 4, page 6, last paragraph, and pag= e 7, first paragraph, say:

   The topic of IPv6 Extension Headers brings current controversie=
s into
   focus as noted by [RFC6564] and [RFC7045].  However, measurement use
   cases in the context of the IPPM framework like in-situ OAM in
   enterprise environments =
or IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics
   (PDM) Destination Option=
 measurements [=
RFC8250] can benefit from
   inspection, modification, addition or deletion of IPv6 extension
   headers in hosts along the measurement path.


   As a particular use case, hosts on the path may store se=
nding and
   intermediate timestamps into dedicated extension headers to support
   measurements, monitoring, auditing, or reproducibility in critical
   environments.  [RFC8250] endorses =
the use and manipulation of IPv6
   extension headers for measurement p=
urposes, consistent with other
   approved IETF specifications=
.

These two paragraphs are very problematic a= nd IMNSHO need a complete rewrite before publication.

<= div>As noted in a review by Fred Baker on 2016-07-14 of an earlier version = (see=C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/8sgikiZbSiD4v2= VeKK_FA7TkjmM), the first sentence of the first paragraph above dates t= he document, and in fact these controversies have largely been put to rest = by RFC 8200. Specifically, insertion or deletion of extension headers by in= termediate nodes is forbidden by RFC 8200. So is modification of extension = headers other than modifiable options contained within the Hop by Hop Optio= ns Header. An IPv6 hop-by-hop option somewhat along the lines of the IPv4 t= imestamp option could, in principle, be defined, but so far none has been. = The option defined in RFC 8250 is a destination option and is not allowed t= o change in flight, and I see nothing in RFC 8250 that discusses the storin= g of intermediate timestamps by nodes (note, nodes, not hosts) on the path.= If this is wrong, I would appreciate a pointer to the text in RFC 8250 tha= t says otherwise.

Section 4, page 7, fifth paragra= ph says:

   o  Extension Header insertion or deletion: It is possible that
      Extension Headers could be added to, or removed from the header
      chain.  The resulting packet may be standard-formed, with a
      corresponding Type-P.

This paragraph gives the impression that in= sertion or deletion of extension headers is sanctioned by IETF standards, w= hich is not true. If instead of "It is possible ..." it said some= thing like "Despite the fact that such behavior does not comply with R= FC 8200, it is possible ..." I would not find it objectionable.
<= div>
Section 4, page 7, next-to-last paragraph says:

   [...] Path MTU Discovery
   for IP version 6 (PMTUD, [RFC8201]) o=
r Packetization Layer Path MTU
   Discovery (PLPMTUD, [RFC4821]) is =
recommended to prevent
   fragmentation (or ICMP e=
rror messages) as a result of IPv6 extension
   header manipulation.

The trailing clause "(or ICMP error= messages) as a result of IPv6 extension header manipulation" should b= e removed, as it is just plain wrong. PMTUD relies on ICMP Packet Too Big m= essages for proper operation, and in-flight increases in packet length due = to insertion of extension headers actually break PTMTUD.

Section 5, page 8, next-to-last paragraph says:

   o  Modifi=
cation or addition of headers or header field values in
      intermediate nodes.  =
As noted in Section 4 for IPv6 extension
      header manipulation, =
NAT, IPv4-IPv6 transitioning or IPv6 header
      compression mechanisms may result in changes of the measurement
      packets' Type-P, too.  Consequently, hosts along the measurement
      path may treat packets differently because of the Type-P
      modification.  Measurements at observation points along the path
      may also need extra context to uniquely identify a packet.
=C2=A0
If the changes I recommend above are implemente= d, it will be necessary to remove the clause "As noted in Section 4 fo= r IPv6 extension header manipulation,"

Mike H= eard

On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 06:21:43 -0700, The IESG = <iesg-secretary at ietf.org>=C2=A0wro= te:
Th=
e IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (ippm)
to consider the following document: - 'IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updat=
es for
IPPM's Active Metric Framework'
  <draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04.txt> as Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf at ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-2=
5. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg at ietf.org instead. In either=
 case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract

   This memo updates the IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) Framework RFC
   2330 with new considerations for measurement methodology and testing.
   It updates the definition of standard-formed packets in RFC 2330 to
   include IPv6 packets, deprecates the definition of minimum standard-
   formed packet, and augments distinguishing aspects of packets,
   referred to as Type-P for test packets in RFC 2330.  This memo
   identifies that IPv4-IPv6 co-existence can challenge measurements
   within the scope of the IPPM Framework.  Exemplary use cases include,
   but are not limited to IPv4-IPv6 translation, NAT, protocol
   encapsulation, IPv6 header compression, or use of IPv6 over Low-Power
   Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN).

The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6/ballot/

No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.
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M. Heard" , IETF CC: IPPM , 6man Thread-Topic: Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC Thread-Index: AQHT1CINNWLrZp0gnEmOO2ejSajh+KQByI8Q Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 13:43:26 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [69.141.203.172] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895Enjmtexg5researc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-15_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx 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[209.85.218.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7BB09E9060; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 126-v6so12384970oig.0; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:56:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDzqs3UsFOh9dnjp3juEeDXmCag8F0odpp98z0S7/yOAMIbPuhe VxGKHO40fZFOGphbwXcpDQGCaL/mthFjM6MiHKg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx483fjjeCrC9yNsbgoNTuB9ozX6YSNuV3LhXUZlpYloXx10S9FgO8R4b+13hgkCNttzCMZikJUp1HFfng0Ger+g= X-Received: by 2002:aca:1308:: with SMTP id e8-v6mr13175805oii.119.1523807790865; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:56:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.136.194 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:56:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> From: "C. M. Heard" Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 08:56:10 -0700 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" Cc: IETF , IPPM , 6man Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000014a3400569e52602" X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 90B3E16C-40C5-11E8-B9A3-67830C78B957-06080547!pb-smtp2.pobox.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 15:56:36 -0000 --00000000000014a3400569e52602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Al, Apologies for the truncated message ... the full version is available at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ippm/current/msg04999.html. I'll resend off-list shortly. In the meantime, my responses below are marked [cmh] Mike Heard On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:43 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote: > Thanks for your review, C.M. > > > > please see below [acm], > > Al > > > [ non-controversial stuff elided ] > > Section 3, page 4, third paragraph, says: > > > > [...] For example, the packet length will > > change if IP headers are converted to the alternate version/address > > family, or if optional Extension Headers are added or removed. [...] > > > > Adding or removing extension headers contravenes RFC 8200. Since this is > just an example, I would recommend deleting the controversial second clau= se. > > *[acm] * > > Understand, see below. > > > > Section 4, page 6, last paragraph, and page 7, first paragraph, say: > > > > The topic of IPv6 Extension Headers brings current controversies into > > focus as noted by [RFC6564 ] and [RFC7045 ]. However, measurement use > > cases in the context of the IPPM framework like in-situ OAM in > > enterprise environments or IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics > > (PDM) Destination Option measurements [RFC8250 ] can benefit from > > inspection, modification, addition or deletion of IPv6 extension > > headers in hosts along the measurement path. > > > > As a particular use case, hosts on the path may store sending and > > intermediate timestamps into dedicated extension headers to support > > measurements, monitoring, auditing, or reproducibility in critical > > environments. [RFC8250 ] endorses the use an= d manipulation of IPv6 > > extension headers for measurement purposes, consistent with other > > approved IETF specifications > > > > *[acm] * > > This is the end-of-message I received, but I imagine you intended to > > point-out that 8200 and 8250 appear to be in conflict over > > addition/deletion of extension headers. > > > > From 8200, section 4: > > > > Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery > > path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, > > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > > of the IPv6 header. > > > > I wonder why RFC 2119 requirement terms were not used to > > express this idea? We certainly have agreements about > > requirements language for Standards Track memos in IETF. > > *[cmh]* RFC 2119 language is not strictly required, and the 6man WG decided not to introduce it in the transition from 2460 to 8200. I didn't agree with that decision, but I was "in the rough." > RFC8250 does not involve Extension header insertion/deletion > > along the path, but other work-in-progress (in-situ OAM) would. > > *[cmh]* Correct, 8250 does not involve extension header insertion/deletion/modification along the path. Thus, the wording of the latter two highlighted sentences above needs to be reworked. The first highlighted sentence is now dated (as predicted by Fred Baker in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/8sgikiZbSiD4v2VeKK_FA7TkjmM), but there is ongoing discussion in 6man about updating RFC 8200 to permit insertion/deletion/modification of extension headers (other than hop-by-hop options) under certain circumstances. See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion. In any case, a measurement framework should be prepared to > > handle some unexpected/discouraged behaviors encountered on the path. > > *[cmh]* I do not disagree with that; but but might it not be appropriate to change to Section 4, page 7, fifth paragraph, from: o Extension Header insertion or deletion: It is possible that Extension Headers could be added to, or removed from the header chain. The resulting packet may be standard-formed, with a corresponding Type-P. to something like: o Extension Header insertion or deletion: Although such behavior is not endorsed by current standards, it is possible that Extension Headers could be added to, or removed from the header chain. The resulting packet may be standard-formed, with a corresponding Type-P. If that doesn't work for you, perhaps say something to the same effect could be said in the paragraphs at the bottom of page 6 and the top of page 7. Note that there were comments on PMTUD in the part of the message that you didn't get; hopefully those will get to you in the re-send coming shortly. Mike Heard --00000000000014a3400569e52602 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Al,

Apologies for the truncated m= essage ... the full version is available at=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mai= l-archive/web/ippm/current/msg04999.html.=C2=A0 I'll resend off-lis= t shortly. In the meantime, my responses below are marked [cmh]
<= br>
Mike Heard

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:43 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (= AL) <acm@research.att.com> wrote:

Thanks for your review, C.M.<= /p>

=C2=A0

please see below [acm],

Al

= =C2=A0


= =C2=A0[ non-controversial stuff elided ]

=C2=A0

Section 3, page 4, third paragraph, says:<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 [...] For example, the packet length will
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 change if IP headers are converted to the alternate version/address<=
u>
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 family, or if optional Ex=
tension Headers are added or removed. [...]

=C2=A0

Adding or removing extension headers contravenes RFC= 8200. Since this is just an example, I would recommend deleting the contro= versial second clause.

[acm]

Understand, see below.

=C2=A0

Section 4, page 6, last paragraph, and page 7, first= paragraph, say:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 The topic of IPv6 Extensi=
on Headers brings current controversies into

=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 focus as noted by [RFC6564]=
 and [RFC7045].=
=C2=A0 However, measurement use


=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 cases in the context of the IPPM framework like in-situ OAM in


=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 enterprise environments o=
r IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics


=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 (PDM) Destination Option =
measurements [RFC8250] can benefit from=



=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 inspection, modification, addition or deletion of IPv6 extension


=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 headers in hosts along the measurement path.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 As a particular use case, hosts on the path may store sending and=

=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 intermediate timestamps into dedicated extension headers to support<=
u>
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 measurements, monitoring, auditing, or reproducibility in critical
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 environments.=C2=A0 [RFC8250] endorses the use and manipulation of IPv6
=C2=A0=C2=A0 extension headers for measurement purposes, consistent w=
ith other
=C2=A0=C2=A0 approved IETF specifications
=C2=A0
[acm] 
This is the end-of-message I received, but I imagine you intended t=
o 
point-out that 8200 and 8250 appear to be in conflict over
addition/deletion of extension headers.
=C2=A0
From 8200, section 4:
=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Opti= ons header) are not

=C2=A0=C2=A0 processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along= a packet's delivery

=C2=A0=C2=A0 path, until the packet reaches the node (or each = of the set of nodes,

=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the case of multicast) identified in the Desti= nation Address field

=C2=A0=C2=A0 of the IPv6 header.

=C2=A0
I wonder why RFC 2119 requirement terms were not used to =

express this idea? We certainly have agreements about=

requirements language for Standards Track memos in IETF. =C2=A0=

[cmh]
RFC 2119 language is not strictly required, and th= e 6man WG decided not to introduce it in the transition from 2460 to 8200.<= /div>

I didn't agree with that decision, but I was &= quot;in the rough."
=C2=A0
=

RFC8250 does not involve Extension header insertion/deletion=

along the path, but other work-in-progress (in-situ OAM) would.
[cmh]
<= /div>Correct, 8250 does not involve extension header insertion/deletion/mod= ification along the path.

Thus, the wording of the latter two highli= ghted sentences above needs to be reworked.

The first hi= ghlighted sentence is now dated (as predicted by Fred Baker=C2=A0in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/8sgikiZbSiD4v2VeKK_FA7TkjmM= ), but there is ongoing discussion in 6man about updating RFC 8200 to permi= t insertion/deletion/modification=C2=A0of extension headers (other than hop= -by-hop options) under certain circumstances. See=C2=A0https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion.

In any case, a measurement framework should be prepared to <=
u>
handle some unexpected/discouraged behaviors encountered on the pat=
h.

[cm= h]
I do not disagree with that; but but might it not be ap= propriate to change to=C2=A0Section 4, page 7, fifth paragraph, from:
<= div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium">
   o  Extension Header insertion or dele=
tion: It is possible=
 that
      Extension Headers could be added to, or removed from the header
      chain.  The resulting packet may be standard-formed, with a
      corresponding Type-P.

to something like:

   o  Extension Header insertion or deletion: Although such behavior is
      not endorsed by curre=
nt standards, it is possible that Extension
      Headers could be added to, or removed from the header chain.  The
=

      resulting packet may be standard-formed, with a correspo=
nding
      Type-P.

If that doesn't work for y= ou, perhaps say something to the same effect could be said in the paragraph= s at the bottom of page 6 and the top of page 7.

N= ote that there were comments on PMTUD in the part of the message that you d= idn't get; hopefully those will get to you in the re-send coming shortl= y.

Mike Heard
--00000000000014a3400569e52602-- From nobody Sun Apr 15 09:15:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D7A126BF6 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l1L4SKeDlJG4 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E1D91201F2 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id y23so3347625qto.3 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:15:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sL2RDhUGwGEUg66y918fBln7I2+sywhR83OG5busAy0=; b=xL9n34xfvgXgEyAdqoJQSgy1pTZ//QB03QikpHkpqW2J0l+K8O6/mK+X+A83H0JPVs Zcii2R/CQNMehid/KjjcpiaXPDQtowIS7P1FBQ8FJ8MVXskiSJP4qBXTeamHRSDV8jOs tXHAVh0WQqojbMjKO0NFpGqmzuZKI+ihrdEspD/QQfW7r3A92FLVfIrpc+6xbfeffSNI 6qg5JtixJ7UF2sWCd2orxBCKpJiCKIatW+I7PcefpaplYMg8gIVOfagUmnyQ2/DKX/G8 MbdWS8VGzKbFit7jaWA3MUst+N6+1Ue2C8uZEc4TTA3MG6awO8lY6VW1pGhRD/V0OgO4 nAVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sL2RDhUGwGEUg66y918fBln7I2+sywhR83OG5busAy0=; b=NoUL98t45n1gUDjUDtRy/RcAxXzFeDtRjXWiOvSUzXu+sQPKyobpyDW4POo7lvHQIO 8iYjm6Wu2PB4G6yjPgljXSBRloJYqdLd+e8Q2uDXEAbczjeviTbVP0/sduQwvwYksSNh ++IkdCFom/zceAAQ1oPleF6sREuGfKhpNLKzq/SvPsgs5w2iDWtEkX6cr5ZPmMDRmrfs jF3JCK9ycqISelqYet1TddJLA5Selh9aVEjxOq5ZNe38pjGiFP7ur0VOiAm81tqiuJea tCqqsDO5fa3raG8UtIZO5gk+FnfBnS/tiqRgV5kA+NqZ8UqXID5+QUEqUq+2uPEVB3Xf Jwmw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAxpYwsGSwH4GuqAwXOwTZcgnz/Ll7fzLvSvErNtnYJf0eerdQj h+RthslMOAXu+YgpW2rCBFwONCSv5XzfWryelx9snw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+9ZPvM6KowVBb8r9enK3CtvPU18sYolIDeIAPOgBwEtw2/KUPkGpe92Kmx/5uGU2/x8Bo1HaXqHCUyJF02Ccg= X-Received: by 10.200.42.37 with SMTP id k34mr12755557qtk.101.1523808948012; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:15:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.48.35 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:15:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:15:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" Cc: "C. M. Heard" , IETF , 6man , IPPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 16:15:51 -0000 On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:43 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote: > Thanks for your review, C.M. > > > > please see below [acm], > > Al > > > > From: C. M. Heard [mailto:heard@pobox.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018 2:54 PM > To: IETF > Cc: IPPM ; 6man > Subject: Re: Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and > Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC > > > > Greetings, > > > > I have some last call comments on this document. Most (but not all) focus on > aspects that do not respect RFC 8200 and RFC 8201. > > > > The Abstract says: > > > > [...] Exemplary use cases include, > > but are not limited to IPv4-IPv6 translation, NAT, protocol > > encapsulation, IPv6 header compression, or use of IPv6 over Low-Power > > Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN). > > > > These last two use cases, however, are explicitly excluded in Section 4: > > > > [...] Because of these reasons we > > consider ROHC and 6LowPAN packets to be out of the scope of this > > document. > > > > On that basis, it seems that the last two use cases in the Abstract should > be removed. Other places in the draft that IPv6 header compression also need > to be looked at. > > [acm] > > Clarified as follows: > > IPv6 header compression and use of IPv6 over > > Low-Power Wireless Area Networks (6LoWPAN) are > > considered and excluded from the standard-formed packet evaluation. > > > > and later: > > Because of these reasons we consider ROHC and > > 6LowPAN packets to be out of the scope for the > > standard-formed packet evaluation. > > > > Section 3, page 3, next to last paragraph, has a reference "Diffserv > [RFC2780]" -- shouldn't that be "Diffserv [RFC2474]"? > > [acm] > > yes, 2474 was intended, thanks. > > > > Section 3, page 4, third paragraph, says: > > > > [...] For example, the packet length will > > change if IP headers are converted to the alternate version/address > > family, or if optional Extension Headers are added or removed. [...] > > > > Adding or removing extension headers contravenes RFC 8200. Since this is > just an example, I would recommend deleting the controversial second clause. > > [acm] > > Understand, see below. > > > > Section 4, page 6, last paragraph, and page 7, first paragraph, say: > > > > The topic of IPv6 Extension Headers brings current controversies into > > focus as noted by [RFC6564] and [RFC7045]. However, measurement use > > cases in the context of the IPPM framework like in-situ OAM in > > enterprise environments or IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics > > (PDM) Destination Option measurements [RFC8250] can benefit from > > inspection, modification, addition or deletion of IPv6 extension > > headers in hosts along the measurement path. > > > > As a particular use case, hosts on the path may store sending and > > intermediate timestamps into dedicated extension headers to support > > measurements, monitoring, auditing, or reproducibility in critical > > environments. [RFC8250] endorses the use and manipulation of IPv6 > > extension headers for measurement purposes, consistent with other > > approved IETF specifications > > > > > > [acm] > > This is the end-of-message I received, but I imagine you intended to > > point-out that 8200 and 8250 appear to be in conflict over > > addition/deletion of extension headers. > > > > From 8200, section 4: > > > > Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery > > path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, > > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > > of the IPv6 header. > > > > I wonder why RFC 2119 requirement terms were not used to > > express this idea? We certainly have agreements about > > requirements language for Standards Track memos in IETF. > > > > RFC8250 does not involve Extension header insertion/deletion > > along the path, but other work-in-progress (in-situ OAM) would. > > > > In any case, a measurement framework should be prepared to > > handle some unexpected/discouraged behaviors encountered on the path. > Alfred, That is not what this draft is doing. It is advocating header extension insertion even though that is contrary to RFC8220. (it is also advocating processing and modification or destination option by middleboxes which is also contrary to RFC8200). From the draft: "Destination Option measurements [RFC8250] can benefit from inspection, modification, addition or deletion of IPv6 extension headers in hosts along the measurement path." That ignores the negative protocol implications of extension header insertion. draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion proposed updating RFC8200 to allow extension header insertion. The draft got significant push back and in the 6man discussion a list of problem with extension header were enumerated. AFAICT the authors of that draft haven't provided answers to any of the issues yet. Tom > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody Mon Apr 16 00:08:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E348B127136; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 00:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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--_000_fb963e482d074551853ce83816f24c7fXCHRCD008ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Apr 16 01:37:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F6F126BF0; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:37:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EHU1F3vwSBK6; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 627D1124239; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 01:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id C93BC5FC50347; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:37:30 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:37:32 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 16:37:25 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey Spiegel , Tom Herbert CC: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , "Service Function Chaining IETF list" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT0qfYMJmDjLfNRU+b5k8Wa55hLqP9MIyAgABxbYCAANtOAIAD+q4AgACbFcA= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 08:37:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:06:31 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey Spiegel , Tom Herbert CC: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , "Service Function Chaining IETF list" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT0qfYMJmDjLfNRU+b5k8Wa55hLqP9MIyAgABxbYCAANtOAIAD+q4AgACbFcD//4GggIAAiFIg Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:06:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.156.116] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A6D62FD6NKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:22:53 -0000 --_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A6D62FD6NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRnJhbmssDQoNCklmIEkgcmVjYWxsIHJpZ2h0LCBpdCBpcyBub3Qgd3JpdHRlbiBpbiB0aGUg aW9hbSBkYXRhIGRyYWZ0Lg0KWWVzLCBub2RlIGJ5IG5vZGUgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBpcyBhbiBl YXN5IHdheS4gSW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0LXpob3UtaXBwbS1pb2FtLXlhbmcsIHdlIGhhdmUgdGhlIOKA nHByb3RvY29sLXR5cGXigJ0gdG8gaW5kaWNhdGUgdGhlIGxheWVyaW5nLg0KICAgKy0tcncgaW9h bQ0KICAgICAgKy0tcncgaW9hbS1wcm9maWxlcw0KICAgICAgICAgKy0tcncgZW5hYmxlZD8gICAg ICAgIGJvb2xlYW4NCiAgICAgICAgICstLXJ3IGlvYW0tcHJvZmlsZSogW3Byb2ZpbGUtbmFtZV0N CiAgICAgICAgICAgICstLXJ3IHByb2ZpbGUtbmFtZSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgc3RyaW5n 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mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 05:16:44 -0500 From: "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" To: Tianran Zhou , "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey Spiegel , "Tom Herbert" CC: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , "Service Function Chaining IETF list" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT0qfTQwTS8ElgNEuPyExTOQTetaP+CnqAgABxbYCAANtOAIAD+q4AgAAY6YCAAAPMgIAABFWA//+eRIA= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:16:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1a.0.160910 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.34.41] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3606738403_1795904286" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 10:16:53 -0000 --B_3606738403_1795904286 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3606738403_1014226000" --B_3606738403_1014226000 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tianran, > If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. Data draft is defining the data to be carried in IOAM in an encapsulation a= gnostic way, it does not specify how the encapsulation protocol is configure= d. =20 > Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. While it is, it does not have to be a node by node configuration. It can be= part of the encapsulation definition.=20 For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data to be carri= ed as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with highest order 2 bits s= et to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement IOAM will process the option and o= thers will skip over. =20 =20 Thanks, Shwetha =20 From: ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey Spiegel , Tom Herbert Cc: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , Service = Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protoc= ols - follow up from WG discussion in London =20 Hi Frank, =20 If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. In the draft-zhou-ippm-ioam= -yang, we have the =E2=80=9Cprotocol-type=E2=80=9D to indicate the layering. +--rw ioam +--rw ioam-profiles +--rw enabled? boolean +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name] +--rw profile-name string +--rw filter | +--rw filter-type? ioam-filter-type | +--rw acl-name? -> /acl:acls/acl/name +--rw protocol-type? ioam-protocol-type +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-trace}? | ... +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}? | ... +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}? | ... +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}? ... =20 =20 Tianran From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM To: Tianran Zhou ; Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF= list ; IETF IPPM WG Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protoc= ols - follow up from WG discussion in London =20 Hi Tianran, =20 IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 se= ctions 3 and 4), which allows an operator to control by means of configurati= on where and for which traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed fr= om the customer traffic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 =E2=80=93 with IOA= M data in both the Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would expect that the o= perator configures the endpoints of the Geneve tunnel to operate on the IOAM= data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers that the Geneve tunnel traverses to op= erate on the IOAM data in IPv6.=20 =20 Frank =20 From: Tianran Zhou =20 Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37 To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF= list ; IETF IPPM WG Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protoc= ols - follow up from WG discussion in London =20 Hi Frank, =20 How does a forwarder know when and where to insert the data?=20 In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to scan all th= e protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation? =20 Tianran =20 From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank Brockners (fbr= ockne) Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM To: Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF= list ; IETF IPPM WG Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protoc= ols - follow up from WG discussion in London =20 =20 Tom, =20 a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you seem to have in m= ind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =E2=80=9Clayering=E2=80=9D (see se= ction 3.), i.e. if you=E2=80=99re running for example Geneve over IPv6, then IOAM = data could be encapsulated in both protocols, Geneve and IPv6 =E2=80=93 giving you= visibility into the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D (IPv6) and the =E2=80=9Coverlay=E2=80=9D (Geneve).=20 =20 Frank =20 From: ippm On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22 To: Tom Herbert Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF= list ; IETF IPPM WG Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protoc= ols - follow up from WG discussion in London =20 Tom, =20 On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: Mickey, Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more fundamental concern. In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text in the introduction: "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] encapsulation." I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traverse the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP port number would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an intermediate device might be looking for UDP packets destined to port 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is correct, then this is a problem. UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers are meaningful only at the endpoints." If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that this would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tries to interpret. =20 The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet traverses to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option, but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary depending on the transport. =20 In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. =20 Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or VXLAN rather than NSH. =20 I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or encapsulation. =20 IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been broken out into a separate draft. =20 Mickey =20 Thanks, Tom On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel wrote: > Tom, > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> > Hi Frank, >> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >> > tagged >> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other >> > working >> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center = of >> > the >> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more >> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Greg >> > >> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts deali= ng >> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e >> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question >> >> on >> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.. After >> >> carefully >> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion >> >> that >> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM heade= r=E2=80=9D >> >> is 8 >> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above >> >> mentioned >> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would ad= d >> >> an >> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >> Greg, >> >> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and >> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four >> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for >> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and >> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this >> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > > > The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four bytes o= f > IOAM > info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM opt= ion > specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, ther= e > are > four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen= , > Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list > containing the per hop IOAM information. > > In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any of t= he > IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another variant = of > the > information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight > bytes. > >> >> Tom >> >> > >> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >> > >> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > > > The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timestamp > block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp > block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM. > >> >> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > > > For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. > >> >> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > > > IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version field > would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of > overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. > >> >> >> >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown a= t >> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implement= ations >> >> to >> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread o= n >> >> OOAM >> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM hea= der. >> >> In >> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions abou= t >> >> the >> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM >> >> mechanisms >> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >> > >> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations >> > you >> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data >> > TLV >> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations >> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem i= n >> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >> > >> >> >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM header >> >> would >> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a >> >> 8-bit >> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOA= M data >> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol cod= e >> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >> > >> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], an= d >> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet >> > traversing the underlay. >> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will >> > update >> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite cle= ar >> > in >> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not only >> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply= . >> > >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward with >> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 p= er >> >> the >> >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> ippm mailing list >> >> ippm@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Int-area mailing list >> > Int-area@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > =20 --B_3606738403_1014226000 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tianran,

> If I recall right, it is not wr= itten in the ioam data draft.

Data draft is defining the data= to be carried in IOAM in an encapsulation agnostic way, it does not specify= how the encapsulation protocol is configured.

 

> Yes, node by node configurati= on is an easy way.

While it is, it does not have to be a node= by node configuration. It can be part of the encapsulation definition.

For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data = to be carried as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with highest ord= er 2 bits set to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement IOAM will process the o= ption and others will skip over.

 

=

&= nbsp;

Thanks,

Shwetha

 

From: = ippm <ippm-bounc= es@ietf.org> on behalf of Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
= Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM
To: "Frank Bro= ckners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, Mickey Spiegel <mspie= gel@barefootnetworks.com>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
= Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>, "int-area@ietf.org" <int-ar= ea@ietf.org>, Service Function Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>, I= ETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] e= ncapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussio= n in London

 

Hi Frank,

 

If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam = data draft.

Yes, node by node configuration i= s an easy way. In the draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the “protocol-type” to indicate the layering.

   +--rw ioam

&nb= sp;     +--rw ioam-profiles

         +--rw enabled? &nbs= p;      boolean

&nbs= p;        +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-na= me]

       = ;     +--rw profile-name     &n= bsp;            =   string

     &= nbsp;      +--rw filter

            |&nbs= p; +--rw filter-type?   ioam-filter-type

            |&n= bsp; +--rw acl-name?      -> /acl:acls/acl/name<= /span>

       &nb= sp;    +--rw protocol-type?     &nbs= p;            ioam-pr= otocol-type

     &nb= sp;      +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {increme= ntal-trace}?

     &n= bsp;      |  ...

            +--rw p= reallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}?

            |&nb= sp; ...

      &= nbsp;     +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}?

         = ;   |  ...

   &= nbsp;        +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-e= dge}?

      &nb= sp;        ...

 

 

Tianran

From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbr= ockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM
To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Mickey Spiegel <mspiegel@= barefootnetworks.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc:<= /b> NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining= IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Su= bject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various proto= cols - follow up from WG discussion in London

 

Hi Tianran,

 

IOA= M is a domain specific feature (see also draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 sectio= ns 3 and 4), which allows an operator to control by means of configuration w= here and for which traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed from t= he customer traffic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 – with IOA= M data in both the Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would expect that the o= perator configures the endpoints of the Geneve tunnel to operate on the IOAM= data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers that the Geneve tunnel traverses to op= erate on the IOAM data in IPv6.

 

= Frank

 <= o:p>

From: Tianran Zhou <zhout= ianran@huawei.com>
Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37
<= b>To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Mickey Spiegel <mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc:= NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF= list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG &= lt;ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: R= E: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follo= w up from WG discussion in London

 

Hi Frank,

 

How does a = forwarder know when and where to insert the data?

In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to scan a= ll the protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation?

 

Tianran

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank Bro= ckners (fbrockne)
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM
To: Mickey Spiegel <mspiege= l@barefootnetworks.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; int= -area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encap= sulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in= London

 

 

=

Tom,

 

a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What= you seem to have in mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as = “layering” (see section 3.), i.e. if you’re running for ex= ample Geneve over IPv6, then IOAM data could be encapsulated in both protoco= ls, Geneve and IPv6 – giving you visibility into the “underlay&#= 8221; (IPv6) and the “overlay” (Geneve).

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

Frank

 

From: ippm <ippm= -bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel
Sent:= Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [In= t-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG = discussion in London

&= nbsp;

Tom,=

 

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM,= Tom Herbert <tom@he= rbertland.com> wrote:

Mickey,

Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I= have a much more
fundamental concern.

In draft-brockners-ippm-ioa= m-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text
in the introduction:

&= quot;In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while
t= he packet traverses a particular network domain.  The term "in-sit= u"
refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the dat= a
packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically
dedica= ted to OAM.  This document defines how IOAM data fields are
transpor= ted as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve]
encapsulation."
=
I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traversethe network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being
Geneve.= Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP
port numbe= r would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an
intermediate d= evice might be looking for UDP packets destined to port
6081 (the assigne= d UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is
correct, then this is a pr= oblem.

UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate d= evice
may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are notactually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605:

"...int= ermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number.
It is impor= tant to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers
-- except at th= e endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers
are meaningful only= at the endpoints."

If the UDP data is modified, as the draft wo= uld imply, then
misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of= packets. A
protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note t= hat this
would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tr= ies to
interpret.

 

<= span lang=3DDE>The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet trav= erses

to be= able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option,<= /o:p>

but leave some flexibil= ity regarding which nodes actually do the

IOAM processing and the node information. Thi= s may vary

= depending on the transport.

 

<= span lang=3DDE>In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN,

there may sti= ll be multiple hops. For example a network may use

Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 proc= essing at ToRs, with L3

<= span lang=3DDE>processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case

many packets= would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet

<= div>

would contain IOAM node information fro= m two nodes.

 

An= other example is service function chaining using Geneve or=

VXLAN rather than NSH.

 


I am also w= ondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this
application? Thei= r interpretation in the network is unabiguous and
they also have the adva= ntage that the work with any IP protocol or
encapsulation.

 =

IPv6 hop-by-hop option= s has been considered. See

draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet be= en

broken o= ut into a separate draft.

 

Mickey

 


Thanks,
Tom


On Thu, Apr 12, 2= 018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel
<mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com> w= rote:

> Tom,
>
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert <= tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
&= gt;>
>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wr= ote:
>> > Hi Frank,
>> > thank you for sharing your = points. Please find my notes in-line and
>> > tagged
>>= > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of othe= r
>> > working
>> > groups that directly work on the= overlay encapsulations in the center of
>> > the
>> &g= t; discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more>> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Greg
>> = >
>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbr= ockne)
>> > <fbrockne@cis= co.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Back at the = IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing
>> >= > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols
>> &g= t;> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00,
>> >> draft-b= rockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One
>> = >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the questi= on
>> >> on
>> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-o= oam-header could be leveraged..  After
>> >> carefully>> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to th= e conclusion
>> >> that
>> >> the “OOAM = header” does not meet the needs of IOAM:
>> >>
>> >&g= t; * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an
>> >= ;> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The “OOAM he= ader”
>> >> is 8
>> >> bytes long. The approach fo= r IOAM data encapsulation in the above
>> >> mentioned
>> >= > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add<= /span>
&g= t;> >> an
>> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes – w= hich is significant.
>> Greg,
>>
>> I'm missing something here. = I looked at the drafts you referenced and
>> each of them looks like the= overhead for OAM is greater that four
>> bytes. In each there is some o= verhead equivalent to type/length, for
>> instance in Geneve four bytes = are needed for option class, type, and
>> length. Unless the the OA= M data is zero length, I don't see how this
>> adds up to only four= bytes of overhead.
>
>
> The four versus eight bytes just= refers to the fields in the four bytes of
> IOAM
> info, that i= s common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM option
> spe= cific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, there
&= gt; are
> four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-= type, NodeLen,
> Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by= the node data list
> containing the per hop IOAM information.
>=
> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with an= y of the
> IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains an= other variant of
> the
> information in the first four bytes of = IOAM info, spread out over eight
> bytes.
>
>>
>&= gt; Tom
>>
>> >
>> > GIM>> The differ= ence in four octets is because OOAM Header:
>> >
>> >= ; provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;
>>
> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for = a timestamp
> block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which = the timestamp
> block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redu= ndant for IOAM.
>
>>
>> > supports larger OAM pac= kets than iOAM header;
>
>
> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octet= s is more than enough.
>
>>
>> > is future proof = by supporting versioning (Version field).
>
>
> IMO, takin= g the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version field
> woul= d be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of
> o= verhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough.
>
>>
>> = >>
>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, = which were also shown at
>> >> recent IETF hackathons –= and we’re expecting additional implementations
>> >> t= o
>> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations nee= d timely
>> >> specifications. Despite the question being ask= ed, the recent thread on
>> >> OOAM
>> >> in t= he NVO3 list hasn’t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header.>> >> In
>> >> addition, the thread revealed tha= t several fundamental questions about
>> >> the
>> &= gt;> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM
>= ;> >> mechanisms
>> >> within protocols such as Gene= ve would apply to the OOAM header. This
>> >> ultimately mean= s that we won’t get to a timely specification.
>> >
>> >= GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations=
&= gt;> > you
>> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposal= s were to use meta-data>> > TLV
>> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH.= And if these or some of these implementations
>> > already upda= ted to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in
>> >= making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree?
>> >
>> = >>
>> >> * Scope: It isn’t entirely clear to whic= h protocols the OOAM header
>> >> would
>> >> = ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a
>= > >> 8-bit
>> >> field for “Next Prot”, = the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data
>> >> needs to be= encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code
>> >= > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation – as specified in
>> &= gt;> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00.
>> >
>> > GIM>> The= first paragraph of the Introduction section states:
>> >   = ; New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE
>> >&nbs= p;   [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve
>= > >    [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-enca= psulation], and
>> >    NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support= multi-protocol payload, e.g.
>> >    Ethernet, IPv4/I= Pv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and
>> >  &n= bsp; Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types.  That ensures that
= >> >    Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with O= verlay data packet
>> >    traversing the underlay.>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning ni= ts will
>> > update
>> > reference to GUE. I think t= hat the list and the statemnt are quite clear
>> > in
>>= ; > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not onl= y
>> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo = Request/Reply.
>> >
>> >> With the above in mind,= I’d suggest that the WG moves forward with
>> >> specific d= efinitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols – per
>> >= ;> the
>> >> above mentioned drafts.
>> >>
>> >= ;>
>> >>
<= /span>>> >> Regards, Frank
>> >>
>= > >>
>> >> _________________________________________= ______
>> >> ippm mailing list
>> >> ippm@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ippm
>> >>
>> >
>> &= gt;
>> > _______________________________________________
>= > > Int-area mailing list
>> > Int-area@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/int-area
>> >
>>
>> ________________= _______________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ippm
>
>

 

=
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--B_3606738403_1795904286-- From nobody Mon Apr 16 06:32:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3256E12D870; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 06:32:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K10WIg_ZO5pL; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 06:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9766126FDC; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 06:32:12 -0700 (PDT) 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Cg0K --_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A6D63236NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Shwetha,

You are talking about the outer encapsution. It is straight forward for the= underlay to record by the header. But what about the overlay, i.e., inner = encapsulation(e.g. geneve)? Without special configuration, intermediate nod= e will not read the inner header, hence not be able to process IOAM.
Maybe we are not synced by this overlay/underlay use case. :-)

Tianran



Sent from WeLink

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Tianran Zhou<zhoutianran@huawei.com>;Frank Brockners (fbrockn= e)<fbrockne@cisco.com>;Mick= ey Spiegel<mspiegel@bar= efootnetworks.com>;Tom Herbert<tom@herbertland.com&= gt;
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA NVO3<nvo= 3@ietf.org>;int-area<int-are= a@ietf.org>;Service Function Chaining IETF list<sfc@ietf.org>;IETF IPPM WG<ippm@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM = data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London
=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2018-04-16 18:17:01

If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data = draft.

 

> Yes, node by node configuration is an eas= y way.

= From: ippm <ippm-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>= ;, Mickey Spiegel <mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com>, Tom Herbert <to= m@herbertland.com>
Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>, "int-area@ietf.org" <in= t-area@ietf.org>, Service Function Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org&g= t;, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various= protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London

 

Hi Frank,

 

If I recall right, it is not written in the io= am data draft.

Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way= . In the draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the =A1=B0pr= otocol-type=A1=B1 to indicate the layering.

   +--rw ioam

      +--rw ioam-= profiles

       &nbs= p; +--rw enabled?        boolean

       &nbs= p; +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name]

       &nbs= p;    +--rw profile-name     &n= bsp;            = ;  string

       &nbs= p;    +--rw filter

       &nbs= p;    |  +--rw filter-type?   ioam-filter= -type

       &nbs= p;    |  +--rw acl-name?    &nb= sp; -> /acl:acls/acl/name

       &nbs= p;    +--rw protocol-type?     =              io= am-protocol-type

       &nbs= p;    +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-tra= ce}?

       &nbs= p;    |  ...

       &nbs= p;    +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-t= race}?

       &nbs= p;    |  ...

       &nbs= p;    +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}?

       &nbs= p;    |  ...

       &nbs= p;    +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}?

       &nbs= p;       ...

 

 

Tianran

From:= Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM
To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Mickey Spiegel <= mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com><= br> Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function = Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>=
Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various= protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London

 

Hi Tianran,

 

IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also draft-ietf-ipp= m-ioam-data-02 sections 3 and 4), which allows an operator to control by me= ans of configuration where and for which traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed from the customer traff= ic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 =A8C with IOAM data in both the = Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would expect that the operator configures= the endpoints of the Geneve tunnel to operate on the IOAM data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers that the Genev= e tunnel traverses to operate on the IOAM data in IPv6.

 

Frank

 

From:= Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@hua= wei.com>
Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Mickey Spiegel <mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com>; Tom Herber= t <tom@herbertland.com> Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>;= int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various= protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London

 

Hi Frank,

 

How does a forwarder know when and where to in= sert the data?

In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean t= he device need to scan all the protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulat= ion?

 

Tianran

 

From:= ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.or= g] On Behalf Of Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM
To: Mickey Spiegel <mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>;= int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various= protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London

 

 

Tom,

 

a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you = seem to have in mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =A1= =B0layering=A1=B1 (see section 3.), i.e. if you=A1=AFre running for example Geneve over IPv6, then IOAM data could be encapsulated= in both protocols, Geneve and IPv6 =A8C giving you visibility into the =A1= =B0underlay=A1=B1 (IPv6) and the =A1=B0overlay=A1=B1 (Geneve).

 

Frank

 

From:= ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel
Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbe= rtland.com>
Cc: NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>;= int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IETF list <sfc@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various= protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London

 

Tom,

 

On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, = Tom Herbert <to= m@herbertland.com> wrote:

Mickey,

Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more
fundamental concern.

In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text
in the introduction:

"In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while the packet traverses a particular network domain.  The term "in-s= itu"
refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data
packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically
dedicated to OAM.  This document defines how IOAM data fields are
transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve]
encapsulation."

I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traverse
the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being
Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP
port number would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an
intermediate device might be looking for UDP packets destined to port
6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is
correct, then this is a problem.

UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device
may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not
actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605:

"...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers
-- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers
are meaningful only at the endpoints."

If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then
misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A
protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that this
would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tries to
interpret.

 

The intention is to allow for mult= iple nodes that a packet traverses

to be able to insert IOAM node inf= ormation in the same trace option,

but leave some flexibility regardi= ng which nodes actually do the

IOAM processing and the node infor= mation. This may vary

depending on the transport.=

 

In case of a tunneled encapsulatio= n such as Geneve or VXLAN,

there may still be multiple hops. = For example a network may use

Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 pr= ocessing at ToRs, with L3

processing done at aggregation or = core switches. In this case

many packets would do 2 Geneve or = VXLAN hops, so the packet

would contain IOAM node informatio= n from two nodes.

 

Another example is service functio= n chaining using Geneve or

VXLAN rather than NSH.

 


I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this
application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and
they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or
encapsulation.

 

IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been c= onsidered. See

draft-brockners-inband-oam-transpo= rt-05. This has not yet been

broken out into a separate draft.<= /span>

 

Mickey

 


Thanks,
Tom


On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel
<mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com> wrote:

> Tom,
>
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Frank,
>> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-li= ne and
>> > tagged
>> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to wor= k of other
>> > working
>> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in th= e center of
>> > the
>> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll = have more
>> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Greg
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne)<= br> >> > <fbrockne@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several = drafts dealing
>> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols<= br> >> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00,
>> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam= -gre-00). One
>> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was = the question
>> >> on
>> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged= ..  After
>> >> carefully
>> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the= conclusion
>> >> that
>> >> the =A1=B0OOAM header=A1=B1 does not meet the needs of IO= AM:
>> >>
>> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to = live user traffic. As such, an
>> >> encapsulation needs to be as eff= icient as possible. The =A1=B0OOAM header=A1=B1
>> >> is 8
>> >> bytes long. The approach for IOA= M data encapsulation in the above
>> >> mentioned
>> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Us= ing the OOAM header approach would add
>> >> an
>> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes = =A8C which is significant.
>> Greg,
>>
>> I'm missing something here. I looked at t= he drafts you referenced and
>> each of them looks like the overhead for = OAM is greater that four
>> bytes. In each there is some overhead equ= ivalent to type/length, for
>> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed = for option class, type, and
>> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how th= is
>> adds up to only four bytes of overhead.
>
>
> The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four byte= s of
> IOAM
> info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM = option
> specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, t= here
> are
> four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, Node= Len,
> Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data li= st
> containing the per hop IOAM information.
>
> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any o= f the
> IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another varia= nt of
> the
> information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eigh= t
> bytes.
>
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> >
>> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Hea= der:
>> >
>> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fiel= ds;
>
>
> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timesta= mp
> block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp<= br> > block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM.<= br> >
>>
>> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
>
>
> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough.
>
>>
>> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).
>
>
> IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version fi= eld
> would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of=
> overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough.
>
>>
>> >>
>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were = also shown at
>> >> recent IETF hackathons =A8C and we=A1=AFre expecting addi= tional implementations
>> >> to
>> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need ti= mely
>> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the rec= ent thread on
>> >> OOAM
>> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=A1=AFt revealed any implementation = of the OOAM header.
>> >> In
>> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental qu= estions about
>> >> the
>> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active= OAM
>> >> mechanisms
>> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM h= eader. This
>> >> ultimately means that we won=A1=AFt get to a timely speci= fication.
>> >
>> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsul= ations supported by the implementations
>> > you
>> > refer to. Until very recently all iO= AM proposals were to use meta-data
>> > TLV
>> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if thes= e or some of these implementations
>> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see = problem in
>> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree?
>> >
>> >>
>> >> * Scope: It isn=A1=AFt entirely clear to which protocols = the OOAM header
>> >> would
>> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, = OOAM uses a
>> >> 8-bit
>> >> field for =A1=B0Next Prot=A1=B1, the next protocol. Some = protocols that IOAM data
>> >> needs to be encapsulated into us= e 16-bits for their next protocol code
>> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =A8C as specified = in
>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00.
>> >
>> > GIM>> The first paragraph of t= he Introduction section states:
>> >    New protocols that supp= ort overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE
>> >    [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gp= e], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve
>> >    [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls= -encapsulation], and
>> >    NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol pa= yload, e.g.
>> >    Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, A= dministration, and
>> >    Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. = ; That ensures that
>> >    Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with = Overlay data packet
>> >    traversing the underlay.
>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning ni= ts will
>> > update
>> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are = quite clear
>> > in
>> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using= not only
>> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Requ= est/Reply.
>> >
>> >> With the above in mind, I=A1=AFd suggest that the WG move= s forward with
>> >> specific definitions for encapsu= lating IOAM data into protocols =A8C per
>> >> the
>> >> above mentioned drafts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards, Frank
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> ippm mailing list
>> >> ippm@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Int-area mailing list
>> > Int-area@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>
>

 

--_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A6D63236NKGEML515MBXchi_-- From nobody Mon Apr 16 07:40:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D291200C5 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05FfcjUIWunt for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x231.google.com (mail-qt0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 977CE12DA1A for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x231.google.com with SMTP id l8so11710211qtp.6 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:40:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XHqFEgZ8mndCnGQWNcA7XvNaMH1JsbTvlVyeE50OLeo=; b=Q0PHui0QiL64eTaIy5IECs4iN3mTWgU/KycstTaVnpnYWoH2tO6nkmZkDJwRL4J8X9 L5ZIT+R4zF1Xa1vckRFjd2Sf8UOuchJrOpeJ1m66K/6UwqACxy7q+Cuic1nhbKKLvwlY zhJZJXHHF3Q5kv/I+rTSf2T2Trclg6zbhGu7j4nityQgwFBd+2Tuw8npHL1DQhLRQPEt eOtCy5N34kNGAdZJbfSjr1MSYJLx4uHzICQbsLoS2VUAX9TD2Yua0bkTDVdcwhI14NEe rOiRmSEPBvByRuMF9AmjOb1GSIh2rW3GKj8vveMJGUqUKlchTilxKrbON5b+vEjSox4g iafw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=XHqFEgZ8mndCnGQWNcA7XvNaMH1JsbTvlVyeE50OLeo=; b=piY7jm1FdYB4q+aPyPKPz1l8n2VNg4qeBSk90jnd+s/qIoqzpVV9KthyvYUBimJYFV A06tNpSWu/E2zimbsgwfXSlPib+rtAE2ocA8IbR670BGHBfQaxNXydIXgYJUsTHLFye3 Yus+Zd2GCIHTRVDo5VrBf8RSRl+2rp1TDbVkhJ/s5jIy/BjY5IBMtZbGNODvmUH+tNoA Fn5kI2U7Lgcc6YNd70/3Q09ATkUbLYsJUuUBR+5xspa8GNY05UzTc9WpBWXcErJzLVf8 jEq7qjrYtTQT7OnNqxibi5I2kwrNVMLCCrmbaK4oZ2pVnMVuQxmB36Lat1EkXQcUNGuJ 9+Gw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDLPRv2xHQ04rWkhXroa+rYdcRYJGOh0+AC+AnnCCZ4EjptaEMz s0VQyvr44bpCkG5eAgLNC8gOg62oklwvrg8Q1KmehQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+vqE6xT2S7DcsQat3/8p0C0bpmrQzKdEVAR+qXf2Vw1B84J9kz7aCd/BOQqbX0XT2LUwPrJdmUPg36YQ+9gMQ= X-Received: by 10.237.35.139 with SMTP id j11mr16936478qtc.291.1523889621311; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:40:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.48.35 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:40:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:40:20 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tianran Zhou Cc: "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey Spiegel , NVO3 , int-area , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:40:26 -0000 On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:31 AM, Tianran Zhou wrot= e: > Hi Shwetha, > > You are talking about the outer encapsution. It is straight forward for t= he > underlay to record by the header. But what about the overlay, i.e., inner > encapsulation(e.g. geneve)? Without special configuration, intermediate n= ode > will not read the inner header, hence not be able to process IOAM.e Hi Tianran, I believe that is also not protocol conformant. Intermediate nodes should not be processing transport layer data as this can lead to misinterpretation and possibly silent data corruption. For instance, Geneve is a UDP encapsulation protocol with assigned port 6081. In order for an intermediate device to process the Geneve encapsulation header it would need to look for packets with destination port of 6081 since that is the only possible discriminator. However, transport port numbers do not have global meaning and hosts may use port numbers for other purposes (RFC7605 describes this). So a packet to port 6081 might be something other than Geneve and may be misinterpreted. If a misinterpreted packet is changed (like ippm data is written) then that would be systematic silent data corruption. As far as I know, hop-by-hop options is the only protocol confirming mechanism that allows an intermediate note to change data of packet in flight. Encpasulation is the only conforming mechanism that allows an intermediate node to add data (like extension headers) to a packet in flight. Tom > Maybe we are not synced by this overlay/underlay use case. :-) > > Tianran > > > > ________________________________ > Sent from WeLink > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Tianran Zhou= ;Frank Brockners > (fbrockne);Mickey > Spiegel;Tom Herbert > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A NVO3;int-area;Service Function > Chaining IETF list;IETF IPPM WG > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM d= ata in various protocols - > follow up from WG discussion in London > =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-04-16 18:17:01 > > Hi Tianran, > >> If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. > > Data draft is defining the data to be carried in IOAM in an encapsulation > agnostic way, it does not specify how the encapsulation protocol is > configured. > > > >> Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. > > While it is, it does not have to be a node by node configuration. It can = be > part of the encapsulation definition. > > For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data to be > carried as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with highest order = 2 > bits set to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement IOAM will process the opt= ion > and others will skip over. > > > > > > Thanks, > > Shwetha > > > > From: ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou > > Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM > To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey Spiegel > , Tom Herbert > Cc: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , Servic= e > Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. > > Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. In the > draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the =E2=80=9Cprotocol-type=E2=80=9D to= indicate the > layering. > > +--rw ioam > > +--rw ioam-profiles > > +--rw enabled? boolean > > +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name] > > +--rw profile-name string > > +--rw filter > > | +--rw filter-type? ioam-filter-type > > | +--rw acl-name? -> /acl:acls/acl/name > > +--rw protocol-type? ioam-protocol-type > > +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-trace}? > > | ... > > +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}? > > | ... > > +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}? > > | ... > > +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}? > > ... > > > > > > Tianran > > From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM > To: Tianran Zhou ; Mickey Spiegel > ; Tom Herbert > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IE= TF > list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Tianran, > > > > IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 > sections 3 and 4), which allows an operator to control by means of > configuration where and for which traffic IOAM data fields are > added/updated/removed from the customer traffic. Using your example of > Geneve over IPv6 =E2=80=93 with IOAM data in both the Geneve and the IPv6= protocol, > one would expect that the operator configures the endpoints of the Geneve > tunnel to operate on the IOAM data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers that t= he > Geneve tunnel traverses to operate on the IOAM data in IPv6. > > > > Frank > > > > From: Tianran Zhou > Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel > ; Tom Herbert > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IE= TF > list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > How does a forwarder know when and where to insert the data? > > In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to scan all = the > protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation? > > > > Tianran > > > > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank Brockners > (fbrockne) > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM > To: Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert > > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IE= TF > list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > > > Tom, > > > > a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you seem to have in > mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =E2=80=9Clayering= =E2=80=9D (see > section 3.), i.e. if you=E2=80=99re running for example Geneve over IPv6,= then IOAM > data could be encapsulated in both protocols, Geneve and IPv6 =E2=80=93 g= iving you > visibility into the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D (IPv6) and the =E2=80=9Cov= erlay=E2=80=9D (Geneve). > > > > Frank > > > > From: ippm On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel > Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22 > To: Tom Herbert > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function Chaining IE= TF > list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Tom, > > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert wrote= : > > Mickey, > > Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more > fundamental concern. > > In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the text > in the introduction: > > "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while > the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" > refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data > packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically > dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are > transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] > encapsulation." > > I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation traverse > the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as being > Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the destination UDP > port number would be used to identify packets as being Geneve. So an > intermediate device might be looking for UDP packets destined to port > 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is > correct, then this is a problem. > > UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device > may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not > actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: > > "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. > It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers > -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers > are meaningful only at the endpoints." > > If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then > misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A > protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that this > would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network tries to > interpret. > > > > The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet traverses > > to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option, > > but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the > > IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary > > depending on the transport. > > > > In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, > > there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use > > Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 > > processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case > > many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet > > would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. > > > > Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or > > VXLAN rather than NSH. > > > > > I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this > application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and > they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or > encapsulation. > > > > IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See > > draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been > > broken out into a separate draft. > > > > Mickey > > > > > Thanks, > Tom > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel > wrote: > >> Tom, >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote= : >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >>> wrote: >>> > Hi Frank, >>> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >>> > tagged >>> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other >>> > working >>> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center >>> > of >>> > the >>> > discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have mor= e >>> > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > Greg >>> > >>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >>> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts >>> >> dealing >>> >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >>> >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >>> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). O= ne >>> >> discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the questio= n >>> >> on >>> >> whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.. After >>> >> carefully >>> >> considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion >>> >> that >>> >> the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >>> >> >>> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >>> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOA= M header=E2=80=9D >>> >> is 8 >>> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above >>> >> mentioned >>> >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would a= dd >>> >> an >>> >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >>> Greg, >>> >>> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced and >>> each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that four >>> bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to type/length, for >>> instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for option class, type, and >>> length. Unless the the OAM data is zero length, I don't see how this >>> adds up to only four bytes of overhead. >> >> >> The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four bytes = of >> IOAM >> info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond that, there are IOAM >> option >> specific fields. For example if doing one of the IOAM trace options, the= re >> are >> four bytes of trace option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLe= n, >> Flags, and RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list >> containing the per hop IOAM information. >> >> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with any of >> the >> IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains another variant >> of >> the >> information in the first four bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight >> bytes. >> >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> > >>> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >>> > >>> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; >> >> >> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a timestamp >> block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which the timestamp >> block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is redundant for IOAM. >> >>> >>> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >> >> >> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. >> >>> >>> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >> >> >> IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version fiel= d >> would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more bytes of >> overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown = at >>> >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additio= nal >>> >> implementations >>> >> to >>> >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >>> >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread = on >>> >> OOAM >>> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the O= OAM >>> >> header. >>> >> In >>> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions abo= ut >>> >> the >>> >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM >>> >> mechanisms >>> >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >>> >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification= . >>> > >>> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations >>> > you >>> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-dat= a >>> > TLV >>> > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementation= s >>> > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem = in >>> > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >>> > >>> >> >>> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM= header >>> >> would >>> >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a >>> >> 8-bit >>> >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some proto= cols that IOAM >>> >> data >>> >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol co= de >>> >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >>> > >>> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >>> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], a= nd >>> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >>> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >>> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >>> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packe= t >>> > traversing the underlay. >>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will >>> > update >>> > reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite >>> > clear >>> > in >>> > identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using not onl= y >>> > common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Repl= y. >>> > >>> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forwar= d with >>> >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2= =80=93 per >>> >> the >>> >> above mentioned drafts. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Regards, Frank >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> ippm mailing list >>> >> ippm@ietf.org >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Int-area mailing list >>> > Int-area@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> ippm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> > > From nobody Mon Apr 16 07:58:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0984912DA0D; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wTTl6iECpuVh; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10E95124319; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id l27so10648303pfk.12; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:58:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=VWkIalHZemxeEkreL3R0ONaIKw85HEe1i4/Ro7w9Xiw=; b=jXk/LfdNZzrtdAH0ZKt5zxwcecIrjrWeqiFTtr2gzqROeWXzlWuK8MBIlFy7ZnnHFI J/NC50ZqlD6rLH7Qz2T1wCmMqioTozVpTpAFyikTfZ7inyiSOFOsBCxYXXvKX79WFYUp iG0RiZJOGfmMXhtzHmJIUDAGpBKLiih+hI/Uz48etJuW2kRpJrxwkVX9wuERxMotdYtC Kv+N5IXJo5b09K3xIgcDJYmdgm0F00eQydHdY6hHtvSoH1c8Hcv7TF+xANOiXvVWgi1j jCMWdYm6TUTV598fLbJWdoJWoWpG1X3jvkd/pp2SxXSRcszekjOtMS8XaQsxBi5jFFYS VhNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=VWkIalHZemxeEkreL3R0ONaIKw85HEe1i4/Ro7w9Xiw=; b=inulP9duw6LSicHYoS+86YPEEtNfHSWWpQC6kZmYcGH6Sb/LT+UJllT2lb1oWtFC9U d+RY06TbgVwksYNMZCMsZiaxG3uSLSQUmW754G9Zrzd2PLl+Xx1sEvk3uKEwOKwBJH5L Av1lqmahqzO+MriSmjfycbEkD+VRj9nzqsw04Jxj2j1KIp11rjv7X90Wze4T68/4Mu4I zralhgdoNaWdCda81PxflE+7HKuOxOrgHBGkIAC+5F76dKrtUQYhp4iloR0KfvthKr2W VEEKe1fEdE8EtYLwjFU1IBEvWW5PINxWIqdzRHv09Cv+imr0IfN1OCWhZMKpBqmLYKIW 3iJg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tClg/HPnqx0JEdiPwlUh2Mlxo8PjJqBpWhCNGUcgHdYy4iZN6wg lLbHSkelyxh0HAlQXyklWzxnjYcm X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48K5+8S6/zWuzwLeSkBAiYETsuv51CDNI51PfpKg0liuQ6zEqk+JqcRajrPJn9EWZwZrX1N/A== X-Received: by 10.167.134.12 with SMTP id p12mr21987068pfn.183.1523890704604; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:1d45:d6e1:6a5e:4f6e? ([2601:647:4700:1280:1d45:d6e1:6a5e:4f6e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q62sm31467909pfd.61.2018.04.16.07.58.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_21E4E8F4-E6AB-4BD5-83C8-D0A8DE470CF7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 07:58:21 -0700 Cc: ietf@ietf.org, ippm-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Message-Id: <21835DE5-FCE7-44D8-95B4-33B02C8F477F@gmail.com> References: <008401d3d1ab$2ee8d520$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> To: "tom p." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 14:58:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_21E4E8F4-E6AB-4BD5-83C8-D0A8DE470CF7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Tom, On this particular comment =E2=80=A6. > On Apr 12, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> "container session-sender { >> if-feature session-sender; >> presence "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality."; >> description >> "Configuration of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity"; >> leaf admin-state { >> type boolean; >> mandatory true; >> description >> "Indicates whether the device is allowed to operate >> as a TWAMP Session-Sender."; >> " >>=20 >> A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is that the >> admin-state boolean adds here since the presence container "Enables >> TWAMP Session-Sender functionality.=E2=80=9D; >=20 > [mj] Good catch. Will remove the presence statement. [[mj]] In addition to removing the presence statement, we decided to = change the =E2=80=98mandatory true' statement to a =E2=80=98default = true=E2=80=99 statement. Just removing the presence statement results in = the following error: Validating yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang = yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang = :445: error: RFC 6087: 4.9: = top-level node twamp must not be mandatory Cheers. Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_21E4E8F4-E6AB-4BD5-83C8-D0A8DE470CF7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Tom,

On = this particular comment =E2=80=A6.

On Apr = 12, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:



"container = session-sender {
       if-feature = session-sender;
       presence =  "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality.";
       description
         "Configur= ation of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity";
       leaf admin-state = {
         type= boolean;
         mandatory= true;
         descripti= on
          &nb= sp;"Indicates whether the device is allowed to operate
          &nb= sp; as a TWAMP Session-Sender.";
"

A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is = that the
admin-state boolean adds here since the presence = container "Enables
TWAMP Session-Sender = functionality.=E2=80=9D;

[mj] Good catch. Will remove the = presence statement.

[[mj]] In addition to removing the presence statement, = we decided to change the =E2=80=98mandatory true' statement to a = =E2=80=98default true=E2=80=99 statement. Just removing the presence = statement results in the following error:

Validating yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang
yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang:445: error: RFC 6087: = 4.9: top-level node twamp must not be mandatory

Cheers.


Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

= --Apple-Mail=_21E4E8F4-E6AB-4BD5-83C8-D0A8DE470CF7-- From nobody Mon Apr 16 09:01:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E9A12E8D7; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:01:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Pete Resnick To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 09:01:45 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 16:01:46 -0000 Reviewer: Pete Resnick Review result: Ready with Issues I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 Reviewer: Pete Resnick Review Date: 2018-04-16 IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27 IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat Summary: This document appears ready to go forward. The only "issue" I have here might end up being an editorial issue, but I list it as a Minor issue because it might be substantive. Major issues: None. Minor issues: In the paragraph after Figure 3, it says, "and subsequent values are monotonically increasing". I'm not sure I understand what that means. If 0 is the highest priority, then 1 is a *lower* priority than 0, not an increasing priority. If you are trying to say that the numeric value of the priority field is increasing by 1 for each subsequent value, then "monotonically increasing" is wrong; the sequence "0 2 5 36" is monotonically increasing. You'd say instead, "and subsequent values increase by one". If all you mean is that values start at 0 and go up from there, I think you should just delete the entire phrase; it doesn't add anything and strikes me as confusing. Nits/editorial comments: Why are RFC 4086, RFC 8018, and ietf-ippm-metric-registry Informative References instead of Normative? The uses appear to be normative. I'm not clear why the examples were split between Section 6 and Appendix A; seems like you could just use the long one in section 6 and explain only the important bits. I also note that neither of them make any claims about normativity: That is, most examples in documents I see always say something like, "If there is a conflict between anything here and the syntax in the model, the model wins." Is that not the case in these sorts of model documents? Pet peeve: Except in Acknowledgements, I really don't like the use of "we" in IETF documents (even though it's becoming more and more common). It's not clear to whom it refers (the WG? the authors? the IETF?). In most places, it can be replaced with "This document", or using passive voice (e.g., s/We define X as/X is defined as). There are only 4 occurrences: Abstract, 1.1, 3, and 3.1. Easy enough to change. Note to shepherd: In the shepherding writeup, question 1 is not answered correctly. This document is going for *Proposed* Standard, not *Internet* Standard. Further, there is no explanation for why this should be a standards track document (though I believe the answer is pretty straightforward). You should go correct that. While you're at it, you can update answer 15, as that nit was corrected. From nobody Mon Apr 16 13:37:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DABB12704A; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:37:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152391105047.19681.2442256121739494189@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:37:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:37:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model Authors : Ruth Civil Al Morton Reshad Rahman Mahesh Jethanandani Kostas Pentikousis Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08.txt Pages : 68 Date : 2018-04-16 Abstract: This document specifies a data model for client and server implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Apr 16 13:59:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7A2126CB6 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gYt0qPkmu6Ty for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D67E124B0A for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id j5so1579086pfh.2 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=I+PlvDE8KvR9i/SCIjSiw6xf7w/rZNVlZ/4tWOhjQUk=; b=OI3YJpG7rzU/Pj4e4AePTrlcZPa4BaMHs0GZyqHwUzKs4eZC9TaMGqU+dfgoGcxEPs LRXzRUWlslP6iQMRHKvaMbEtVx0YfAz72ORmM7DYbpm/R42MjuuyyQYHCTmjSwWrrdGn B5gw7a07bZXk5g8zxMcoS3/O+qiZz0ZCrlRKPhIahu02w0/Qf0+JAJuqmZuG5d3ru20G /+84mHIDnPE3eSHetNctIFe73NO+pNEN+Em3LvqK4z3J7F8qcLsYekij/Flm2g2t+2kB bGi+GdprKlSnhA+Qr8LfNCHRj67M6lMn24wOUeMjwwqEB6Q/ySRdrHDCsYFIOOVmOMk2 rQZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=I+PlvDE8KvR9i/SCIjSiw6xf7w/rZNVlZ/4tWOhjQUk=; b=ABs+EMHGk/ZGX0nuCBM+Zds/2H84R/J7zQTXhqA2Gdc4P6g4zJYqy8GLQA/ygpAi9k 16wD+GOnpdoTs1MMw+K7qBylhVolCVo5QYaJwVgDLR7Mur6tf8faLs7UO4DU3ak37dfl pJzLXVt+czQoUfazfJU5xokt+pXH69q4rLkjy0HZu74CBtM7iBVvCOFsB5SZIZJOzVIC gFxZjqr3wKyweE072Gb5l2EPlf0GvhdbdyplcdzLkzayEv2qvnZa+h48SX4lJOWTtFkI IZ9CkCMwBEjxr2tXq6Pt/R//qFeXGXQBUs2Edl52eio7NviwCJiNWENa5SgK7ejf5MBb 0zUg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tB4oivToFTaogotaeSwgiQl8du6qOLwB0CfgaM+IvENRfLjz40j I4zeY8jHMVcGdqRzVH/4pgNYGNEL X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+t+AjDyPqfZoK7tBcafz4wAUq3qikVrCs+FP8LVkptdMIXHcES3l2op3yoO3u3L0PP/a+YFg== X-Received: by 10.99.180.65 with SMTP id n1mr14184675pgu.342.1523912341484; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:1d45:d6e1:6a5e:4f6e? ([2601:647:4700:1280:1d45:d6e1:6a5e:4f6e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r16sm28713693pff.123.2018.04.16.13.59.00 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:59:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 13:58:59 -0700 References: <152391105047.19681.2442256121739494189@ietfa.amsl.com> To: ippm@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <152391105047.19681.2442256121739494189@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2018 20:59:04 -0000 Tom, This version of the draft address comments provided by you. Please = review and let us know if you have any questions. Thanks. > On Apr 16, 2018, at 1:37 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the = IETF. >=20 > Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) = Data Model > Authors : Ruth Civil > Al Morton > Reshad Rahman > Mahesh Jethanandani > Kostas Pentikousis > Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08.txt > Pages : 68 > Date : 2018-04-16 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies a data model for client and server > implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). > We define the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language > (UML) class diagrams and formally specify it using YANG. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Mon Apr 16 18:18:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCE112E8A8; Mon, 16 Apr 2018 18:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com 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autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dRVSlL8CSIL4 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com (mail-wr0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 145AD124C27 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id q6so20527996wrd.6 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:44:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=51NMa+aL8CyPvVqLmhntQYqp5LwkHjDk+CoQPD/dp4E=; b=dNHNjr/5JVn8dks34F6azo3NWYIAegfJOKy/wWsoyQpGeKlhANtBQoD1D0xdsboypU 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx481hfG8xduqkQ3NxHKckrzb551G7XM2EL0o5pgTMdr8XlHJkXF78vyBKS1w3e7GD3LNDVIrnOPWkxmyYcG6xoc= X-Received: by 10.80.213.70 with SMTP id f6mr1729105edj.73.1523951069675; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:44:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.143.195 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 00:44:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 10:44:29 +0300 Message-ID: To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045dc37429c50e056a0682d5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:44:35 -0000 --f403045dc37429c50e056a0682d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 I believe OOAM will certainly be useful for active and hybrid measurement protocols (using the RFC 7799 terminology), while in situ OAM (which is a special case of hybrid measurement) has a data plane overhead which implies that every additional bit should be considered carefully, and therefore I would recommend to stay with the existing IOAM header. My 2 cents... Cheers, Tal. On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve= -00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to tak= e > to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header > could be leveraged. After carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-= header, > I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not = meet the needs of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mention= ed > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an > unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > > * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional i= mplementations to > be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OO= AM > in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM h= eader. In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about th= e > OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms > within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM head= er would > ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bi= t > field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols = that IOAM data > needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wit= h > specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93= per the > above mentioned drafts. > > > > Regards, Frank > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --f403045dc37429c50e056a0682d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1

I believe OOAM will certainly be use= ful for active and hybrid measurement protocols (using the RFC 7799 termino= logy), while in situ OAM (which is a special case of hybrid measurement) ha= s a data plane overhead which implies that every additional bit should be c= onsidered carefully, and therefore I would recommend to stay with the exist= ing IOAM header.

My 2 cents...
Cheers,
Tal.

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbro= ckne@cisco.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-= brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After c= arefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the con= clusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach fo= r IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unneces= sary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon.= Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 li= st hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In additi= on, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM h= eader are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to t= he OOAM header. This ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely= specification.

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext = Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code poi= nts. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis-ip= pm-ioam-gre-00.

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


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2018 02:51:57 -0500 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Tianran Zhou , Tom Herbert CC: "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Mickey Spiegel , NVO3 , "Service Function Chaining IETF list" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT01Rv7uw9TGdqO0+V2HJ61OA6MaQC+nQwgABu/4D//63XQIAAWkqAgAATngCAADaJgIAAEx0AgACyKYCAABh5EA== Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:51:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.192.93] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:52:06 -0000 DQpIaSBUaWFucmFuLA0KDQpUb20ncyBub3RlIGFscmVhZHkgaW5jbHVkZXMgdGhlIGhpbnQ6IFlv dSdsbCBhZGQgSU9BTSBkYXRhIHRvIHRoZSBwcm90b2NvbC9sYXllciB0aGF0IHlvdSdyZSBpbnRl cmVzdGVkIGluIG1vbml0b3JpbmcuIEFnYWluIHVzaW5nIEdlbmV2ZSBvdmVyIElQdjYgYXMgYW4g ZXhhbXBsZTogDQoqIElmIHlvdSdyZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIHRoZSBvdmVybGF5LCBpLmUuIEdl bmV2ZSAoZS5nLiB0aW1lc3RhbXBpbmcgdGhlIHBhY2tldCB3aGVuIGl0IGVudGVycyBhbmQgZXhp c3RzIHRoZSB0dW5uZWwpIC0geW91J2QgYWRkIElPQU0gZGF0YSB0byBHZW5ldmUNCiogSWYgeW91 J3JlIGludGVyZXN0ZWQgaW4gdGhlIHVuZGVybGF5LCBpLmUuIElQdjYgKGUuZy4geW91J2QgbGlr ZSB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdoaWNoIHBhdGggcGFja2V0cyB0YWtlIGluIHRoZSB2NiBuZXR3b3Jr KSAtIHlvdSdkIGFkZCBJT0FNIGRhdGEgdG8gSVB2Ng0KKiBJZiB5b3UncmUgaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBp biBib3RoLCB0aGVuIHlvdSdkIGFkZCBJT0FNIGRhdGEgdG8gR2VuZXZlIGFuZCBJUHY2DQoNCkRy 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d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bCTmpLd5F1RIJgSQZYHYotj2csGMi0rsi4ym5PHS4ks=; b=Xd5M8THymwX6fTxUI4CSC/1j6WmAHhSUGeUD0/Ge19PZs8B5PPYJ2e6zP903F2QX2e YzNKhJzsjP0sn7Nr6bm5rmkWj+NdBadp50fYc+bhHVlT7AeSD0qwepHVouKX3kvoeEvN 9bV6RyHA24hHGwe8cjcin9lds65avGplzuMzBeNeKewzd9lVm1fspZv6C+2z7Gq4Ocxr 6MJBpPaf+G1eeSPM/Gnfflw9UG5zw7/kANSuaciL9Q8vZ7R018NK699GlTdtW0unLmoD KVBKUGTtpGBvOsSedo5ota075NWaLyhV+RD9r+ictuXcBXWIe2flhFVPCsx77t/wJvfy 0v0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bCTmpLd5F1RIJgSQZYHYotj2csGMi0rsi4ym5PHS4ks=; b=SuvYVpCvU0nMAC8CEyUtKp5lOHl062ln8YWkKRlgeTAu+lB0RsCjFHciqAZeTZUs+a Tj1UTtTP2OzWoVNVM9xCJSP5P/dXRAojzwUmv5Xnu2505pHDx5GPHMaQvhvmOV2TVo4V 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:22:51 -0000 On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: > > Hi Tianran, > > Tom's note already includes the hint: You'll add IOAM data to the protoco= l/layer that you're interested in monitoring. Again using Geneve over IPv6 = as an example: > * If you're interested in the overlay, i.e. Geneve (e.g. timestamping the= packet when it enters and exists the tunnel) - you'd add IOAM data to Gene= ve > * If you're interested in the underlay, i.e. IPv6 (e.g. you'd like to und= erstand which path packets take in the v6 network) - you'd add IOAM data to= IPv6 > * If you're interested in both, then you'd add IOAM data to Geneve and IP= v6 > Frank, In that case why not just use a hop-by-hop option for measuring the underlay and a destination option for measuring the overlay? The advantage is that this works _any_ IP encapsulation method or any IP protocol for that matter. I don't believe adding ippm to every encapsulation protocol is straightforward: e.g. draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve describe but notes the limited size of header, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre states that a new EtherType would be needed just for this purpose. This also entails additional encapsulation-specific HW support also, whereas support destination and hbh options could be more generic. Tom > Draft draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 already mentions layering (see section= 3): > "Layering: If several encapsulation protocols (e.g., in case of tunneling= ) are stacked on top of each other, IOAM data-records could be present at e= very layer. The behavior follows the ships-in-the-night model." > > Given the discussion here, we'll add some additional text in the next rev= ision to make things crisper (e.g. adding an example might help). > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tianran Zhou > Sent: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 03:18 > To: Tom Herbert > Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners (fb= rockne) ; Mickey Spiegel ; NVO3 ; Service Function Chaining IETF list = ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various prot= ocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > I think it's better that Frank or Shwetha can explain the multi-layer use= case in detail. > > Tianran >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] >> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:40 PM >> To: Tianran Zhou >> Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners >> (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >> ; NVO3 ; int-area >> ; Service Function Chaining IETF list >> ; IETF IPPM WG >> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> >> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:31 AM, Tianran Zhou w= rote: >> > Hi Shwetha, >> > >> > You are talking about the outer encapsution. It is straight forward >> > for the underlay to record by the header. But what about the >> > overlay, i.e., inner encapsulation(e.g. geneve)? Without special >> > configuration, intermediate node will not read the inner header, >> > hence not be able to process IOAM.e >> >> Hi Tianran, >> >> I believe that is also not protocol conformant. Intermediate nodes >> should not be processing transport layer data as this can lead to >> misinterpretation and possibly silent data corruption. >> >> For instance, Geneve is a UDP encapsulation protocol with assigned port = 6081. >> In order for an intermediate device to process the Geneve >> encapsulation header it would need to look for packets with >> destination port of 6081 since that is the only possible >> discriminator. However, transport port numbers do not have global >> meaning and hosts may use port numbers for other purposes (RFC7605 >> describes this). So a packet to port 6081 might be something other >> than Geneve and may be misinterpreted. If a misinterpreted packet is cha= nged (like ippm data is written) then that would be systematic silent data = corruption. >> >> As far as I know, hop-by-hop options is the only protocol confirming >> mechanism that allows an intermediate note to change data of packet in f= light. >> Encpasulation is the only conforming mechanism that allows an >> intermediate node to add data (like extension headers) to a packet in fl= ight. >> >> Tom >> >> > Maybe we are not synced by this overlay/underlay use case. :-) >> > >> > Tianran >> > >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > Sent from WeLink >> > >> > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) >> > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Tianran Zhou;Frank Brockners >> > (fbrockne);Mickey >> > Spiegel;Tom >> > Herbert >> > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A NVO3;int-area;Service Function >> > Chaining IETF list;IETF IPPM WG >> > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOA= M data in various >> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> > =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-04-16 18:17:01 >> > >> > Hi Tianran, >> > >> >> If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >> > >> > Data draft is defining the data to be carried in IOAM in an >> > encapsulation agnostic way, it does not specify how the >> > encapsulation protocol is configured. >> > >> > >> > >> >> Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. >> > >> > While it is, it does not have to be a node by node configuration. It >> > can be part of the encapsulation definition. >> > >> > For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data to >> > be carried as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with >> > highest order 2 bits set to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement IOAM >> > will process the option and others will skip over. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Shwetha >> > >> > >> > >> > From: ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou >> > >> > Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM >> > To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey >> > Spiegel , Tom Herbert >> > >> > Cc: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , >> > Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG >> > >> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Frank, >> > >> > >> > >> > If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >> > >> > Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. In the >> > draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the =E2=80=9Cprotocol-type=E2=80=9D= to indicate >> > the layering. >> > >> > +--rw ioam >> > >> > +--rw ioam-profiles >> > >> > +--rw enabled? boolean >> > >> > +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name] >> > >> > +--rw profile-name string >> > >> > +--rw filter >> > >> > | +--rw filter-type? ioam-filter-type >> > >> > | +--rw acl-name? -> /acl:acls/acl/name >> > >> > +--rw protocol-type? ioam-protocol-type >> > >> > +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-trace}? >> > >> > | ... >> > >> > +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}? >> > >> > | ... >> > >> > +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}? >> > >> > | ... >> > >> > +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}? >> > >> > ... >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Tianran >> > >> > From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com] >> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM >> > To: Tianran Zhou ; Mickey Spiegel >> > ; Tom Herbert >> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >> > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Tianran, >> > >> > >> > >> > IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also >> > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 sections 3 and 4), which allows an >> > operator to control by means of configuration where and for which >> > traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed from the customer >> > traffic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 =E2=80=93 with IOAM da= ta in >> > both the Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would expect that the >> > operator configures the endpoints of the Geneve tunnel to operate on >> > the IOAM data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers that the Geneve tunnel >> traverses to operate on the IOAM data in IPv6. >> > >> > >> > >> > Frank >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Tianran Zhou >> > Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37 >> > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >> > ; Tom Herbert >> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >> > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Frank, >> > >> > >> > >> > How does a forwarder know when and where to insert the data? >> > >> > In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to scan >> > all the protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation? >> > >> > >> > >> > Tianran >> > >> > >> > >> > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank >> > Brockners >> > (fbrockne) >> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM >> > To: Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert >> > >> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Tom, >> > >> > >> > >> > a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you seem to >> > have in mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =E2=80= =9Clayering=E2=80=9D >> > (see section 3.), i.e. if you=E2=80=99re running for example Geneve ov= er >> > IPv6, then IOAM data could be encapsulated in both protocols, Geneve >> > and >> > IPv6 =E2=80=93 giving you visibility into the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80= =9D (IPv6) and the =E2=80=9Coverlay=E2=80=9D >> (Geneve). >> > >> > >> > >> > Frank >> > >> > >> > >> > From: ippm On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel >> > Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22 >> > To: Tom Herbert >> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> > >> > >> > >> > Tom, >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert wr= ote: >> > >> > Mickey, >> > >> > Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more >> > fundamental concern. >> > >> > In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the >> > text in the introduction: >> > >> > "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while >> > the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" >> > refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data >> > packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically >> > dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are >> > transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] >> > encapsulation." >> > >> > I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation >> > traverse the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as >> > being Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the >> > destination UDP port number would be used to identify packets as >> > being Geneve. So an intermediate device might be looking for UDP >> > packets destined to port >> > 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is >> > correct, then this is a problem. >> > >> > UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device >> > may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not >> > actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: >> > >> > "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. >> > It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers >> > -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers >> > are meaningful only at the endpoints." >> > >> > If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then >> > misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A >> > protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that >> > this would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network >> > tries to interpret. >> > >> > >> > >> > The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet traverses >> > >> > to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option, >> > >> > but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the >> > >> > IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary >> > >> > depending on the transport. >> > >> > >> > >> > In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, >> > >> > there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use >> > >> > Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 >> > >> > processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case >> > >> > many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet >> > >> > would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. >> > >> > >> > >> > Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or >> > >> > VXLAN rather than NSH. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this >> > application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and >> > they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or >> > encapsulation. >> > >> > >> > >> > IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See >> > >> > draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been >> > >> > broken out into a separate draft. >> > >> > >> > >> > Mickey >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Tom >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Tom, >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wr= ote: >> >>> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >> >>> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> > Hi Frank, >> >>> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line >> >>> > and tagged >> >>> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of >> >>> > GIM>>other >> >>> > working >> >>> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the >> >>> > center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. >> >>> > Hope we'll have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is >> >>> > acceptable to all. >> >>> > >> >>> > Regards, >> >>> > Greg >> >>> > >> >>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> >>> > wrote: >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts >> >>> >> dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> >>> >> protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >> >>> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, >> >>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we >> >>> >> decided to take to the list was the question on whether >> >>> >> draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.. After >> >>> >> carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to >> >>> >> the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not me= et the needs >> >>> >> of >> >>> >> IOAM: >> >>> >> >> >>> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> >>> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9C= OOAM header=E2=80=9D >> >>> >> is 8 >> >>> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the >> >>> >> above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM >> >>> >> header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2= =80=93 >> >>> >> which is significant. >> >>> Greg, >> >>> >> >>> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced >> >>> and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that >> >>> four bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to >> >>> type/length, for instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for >> >>> option class, type, and length. Unless the the OAM data is zero >> >>> length, I don't see how this adds up to only four bytes of overhead. >> >> >> >> >> >> The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four >> >> bytes of IOAM info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond >> >> that, there are IOAM option specific fields. For example if doing >> >> one of the IOAM trace options, there are four bytes of trace option >> >> header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen, Flags, and >> >> RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list >> >> containing the per hop IOAM information. >> >> >> >> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with >> >> any of the IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains >> >> another variant of the information in the first four bytes of IOAM >> >> info, spread out over eight bytes. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Tom >> >>> >> >>> > >> >>> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >> >>> > >> >>> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; >> >> >> >> >> >> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a >> >> timestamp block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which >> >> the timestamp block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is >> >> redundant for >> IOAM. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >> >> >> >> >> >> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >> >> >> >> >> >> IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version >> >> field would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more >> >> bytes of overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also >> >>> >> shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expec= ting >> >>> >> additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable >> >>> >> implementations need timely specifications. Despite the >> >>> >> question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 >> >>> >> list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM heade= r. >> >>> >> In >> >>> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental >> >>> >> questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether >> >>> >> or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve >> >>> >> would apply to the OOAM header. This ultimately means that we >> >>> >> won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >> >>> > >> >>> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the >> >>> > GIM>> implementations >> >>> > you >> >>> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use >> >>> > meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of >> >>> > these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM >> >>> > shim, I don't see problem in making them use OOAM Header. Would >> >>> > you agree? >> >>> > >> >>> >> >> >>> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the O= OAM >> >>> >> header would ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is >> >>> >> defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D,= the next >> >>> >> protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be >> >>> >> encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code points= . See e.g. >> >>> >> the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> >>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >> >>> > >> >>> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >> >>> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >> >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >> >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER >> >>> > [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], >> and >> >>> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >> >>> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, = and >> >>> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >> >>> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data pa= cket >> >>> > traversing the underlay. >> >>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits >> >>> > will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the >> >>> > statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks >> >>> > that may benefit from using not only common OOAM Header but >> >>> > common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. >> >>> > >> >>> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves for= ward >> >>> >> with specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into >> >>> >> protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Regards, Frank >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> >> ippm mailing list >> >>> >> ippm@ietf.org >> >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >>> >> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > Int-area mailing list >> >>> > Int-area@ietf.org >> >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> ippm mailing list >> >>> ippm@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> >> >> >> > >> > From nobody Tue Apr 17 07:38:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C54212D87B; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:38:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3UH0lud9h8c; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr20096.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.2.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5B131243F3; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 07:38:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-btconnect-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=ozZCzVs9giOobjbe5Fgfj53zpJSt+xGVvq7wFkYZPbk=; b=fiVmdmH3QjKlo+9FvDMP/LjPZ4cayUKb7f6nsKMQszOcbNMRQvII1lgqpMYLIn0StNoaAkNcQcH7c7tucW+M+rMFclbtfj34OMBjPXXz9rBExiJN6oX1Kgw0r1GU8itDT51Fnfu0jEpE0nNmTB/m7P8Yf7jK8pq1dR+c/2zeyoo= Received: from pc6 (86.165.129.75) by AM5PR0701MB2337.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:203:e::7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.696.5; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:38:43 +0000 Message-ID: <018201d3d659$ad822fa0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: "tom p." 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I still cannot find a Reference in the I-D for RFC 2330 which appears in the module. 'max-count' I still find open to confusion - I was hoping that you would rename the leaf, and not the grouping, since it is the leaf, the data object, that is an exponent. Further down, you have "The default max-count value SHOULD be 32768.' " which I think wrong since the leaf is and was an exponent. After renaming the leaf, not the grouping, I was expecting something like 'The default value of max-count-exponent SHOULD be 15 which corresponds to a maximum value of 2**15 i.e.32768.' On the presence/ boolean, and top level nodes being mandatory true, your solution looks fine (I said to you that my knowledge of YANG was limited and while this restriction has a faint echo in my memory, I cannot find the paragraph in RFC6020/RFC7950 that spells this out:-( I am still thinking about secret key. Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mahesh Jethanandani" To: "tom p." Cc: ; ; ; Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:58 PM Tom, On this particular comment …. > On Apr 12, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > >> >> >> "container session-sender { >> if-feature session-sender; >> presence "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality."; >> description >> "Configuration of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity"; >> leaf admin-state { >> type boolean; >> mandatory true; >> description >> "Indicates whether the device is allowed to operate >> as a TWAMP Session-Sender."; >> " >> >> A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is that the >> admin-state boolean adds here since the presence container "Enables >> TWAMP Session-Sender functionality.”; > > [mj] Good catch. Will remove the presence statement. [[mj]] In addition to removing the presence statement, we decided to change the ‘mandatory true' statement to a ‘default true’ statement. Just removing the presence statement results in the following error: Validating yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang :445: error: RFC 6087: 4.9: top-level node twamp must not be mandatory Cheers. 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15.00.1320.000; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 02:51:40 -0500 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Tom Herbert CC: Tianran Zhou , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Mickey Spiegel , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , "IETF IPPM WG" Thread-Topic: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT01Rv7uw9TGdqO0+V2HJ61OA6MaQC+nQwgABu/4D//63XQIAAWkqAgAATngCAADaJgIAAEx0AgACyKYCAABh5EIAAwsqAgADPxZA= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 07:51:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.117.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London 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(8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w3IGRTh9012809; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:29:38 -0400 Received: from tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (sbcsmtp3.sbc.com [144.160.112.28]) by m0049287.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2he8dya9e3-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:29:38 -0400 Received: from enaf.dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3IGTW3E090798; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:29:32 -0500 Received: from zlp30493.vci.att.com (zlp30493.vci.att.com [135.46.181.176]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3IGTQ2t090655; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:29:26 -0500 Received: from zlp30493.vci.att.com (zlp30493.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30493.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id C8E8A4000492; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:29:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (unknown [135.31.184.157]) by zlp30493.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id AAEA640004A6; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:29:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3IGTQXR100374; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:29:26 -0500 Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (mail-green.research.att.com [135.207.255.15]) by tlpd252.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3IGTJar100202; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:29:19 -0500 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njbdcas1.research.att.com [135.197.255.61]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4FE1E1511; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njmtexg5.research.att.com ([fe80::b09c:ff13:4487:78b6]) by njbdcas1.research.att.com ([fe80::8c6b:4b77:618f:9a01%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:29:18 -0400 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: Pete Resnick , "gen-art@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 Thread-Index: AQHT1ZxG6b+s1nE9REmoY8p+X2zgiKQGtsIA Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:29:15 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EA557@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.16.251.237] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-18_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=618 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804180148 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 16:29:57 -0000 Hi Pete, for your Minor Issue: > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pete Resnick > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 12:02 PM ... > Minor issues: >=20 > In the paragraph after Figure 3, it says, "and subsequent values are > monotonically increasing". I'm not sure I understand what that means. If = 0 is > the highest priority, then 1 is a *lower* priority than 0, not an increas= ing > priority. If you are trying to say that the numeric value of the priority= field > is increasing by 1 for each subsequent value, then "monotonically increas= ing" > is wrong; the sequence "0 2 5 36" is monotonically increasing. You'd say > instead, "and subsequent values increase by one". If all you mean is that > values start at 0 and go up from there, I think you should just delete th= e > entire phrase; it doesn't add anything and strikes me as confusing. >=20 [acm] I seem to recollect that we arrived at this sentence after=20 explaining the inverse relationship between values and priorities along the= way. Surely, someone has done this before, and co-authors welcome other concise text suggestions. OLD The client container holds a list (mode-preference-chain) which specifies the Mode values according to their preferred order of use by the operator of this Control-Client, including the authentication and encryption Modes. Specifically, mode-preference-chain lists the mode and its corresponding priority, expressed as a 16-bit unsigned integer, where zero is the highest priority and subsequent values are monotonically increasing. NEW The client container holds a list (mode-preference-chain) which specifies the Mode values according to their preferred order of use by the operator of this Control-Client, including the authentication and encryption Modes. Specifically, mode-preference-chain lists the mode and its corresponding priority, expressed as a 16-bit unsigned integer, where zero is the highest priority and subsequent integers=20 increase by one. Does that do it?=20 Al From nobody Wed Apr 18 10:04:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B257B12D777; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:04:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dJMTwpFLMd4N; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alexa-out.qualcomm.com (alexa-out.qualcomm.com [129.46.98.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7A171275AB; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1524071040; x=1555607040; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=ToI/jyC4HHhFv4B4wxEJ39t3VoeY2bQE/fWFFrePjss=; b=RiVAmpTVNw02GAkm3HieppXX0JypykTvhfLB5P1/GDkcfqoP5ovfGrKY Y4tSD+a2hZkLr+P9jnbrYLQEBU89v7ybJUujxGIO5vxq9Zm/xukcRYFx8 +7FhWmTmLxuakrquLqxH5m7uGwbA9y5Jq2vLs2qwmhz0LtDXFrCST/nIU k=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.48,466,1517904000"; d="scan'208";a="16705172" Received: from ironmsg02-sd.qualcomm.com ([10.53.140.142]) by alexa-out.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 18 Apr 2018 10:03:59 -0700 Received: from nasanexm01f.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.32]) by ironmsg02-sd.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 18 Apr 2018 10:03:59 -0700 Received: from [10.38.242.146] (10.80.80.8) by NASANEXM01F.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:03:58 -0700 From: Pete Resnick To: "MORTON, ALFRED C" CC: , , , Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:03:56 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.11.1r5471) Message-ID: <47EF6766-75F9-4178-BE0E-D8E396F8730A@qti.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EA557@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EA557@njmtexg5.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: [10.80.80.8] X-ClientProxiedBy: NASANEXM01B.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.82) To NASANEXM01F.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:04:02 -0000 I am fine with that, but good idea to check with others who actually have to implement the document. :-) Thanks for taking care of this. pr On 18 Apr 2018, at 11:29, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote: > Hi Pete, for your Minor Issue: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pete Resnick >> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 12:02 PM > ... >> Minor issues: >> >> In the paragraph after Figure 3, it says, "and subsequent values are >> monotonically increasing". I'm not sure I understand what that means. >> If 0 is >> the highest priority, then 1 is a *lower* priority than 0, not an >> increasing >> priority. If you are trying to say that the numeric value of the >> priority field >> is increasing by 1 for each subsequent value, then "monotonically >> increasing" >> is wrong; the sequence "0 2 5 36" is monotonically increasing. You'd >> say >> instead, "and subsequent values increase by one". If all you mean is >> that >> values start at 0 and go up from there, I think you should just >> delete the >> entire phrase; it doesn't add anything and strikes me as confusing. >> > [acm] I seem to recollect that we arrived at this sentence after > explaining the inverse relationship between values and priorities > along the way. > Surely, someone has done this before, and co-authors welcome other > concise text suggestions. > > OLD > The client container holds a list (mode-preference-chain) which > specifies the Mode values according to their preferred order of use > by the operator of this Control-Client, including the > authentication > and encryption Modes. Specifically, mode-preference-chain lists > the > mode and its corresponding priority, expressed as a 16-bit unsigned > integer, where zero is the highest priority and subsequent values > are > monotonically increasing. > > NEW > The client container holds a list (mode-preference-chain) which > specifies the Mode values according to their preferred order of use > by the operator of this Control-Client, including the > authentication > and encryption Modes. Specifically, mode-preference-chain lists > the > mode and its corresponding priority, expressed as a 16-bit unsigned > integer, where zero is the highest priority and subsequent integers > increase by one. > > Does that do it? > Al From nobody Wed Apr 18 13:38:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF966127201; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:38:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wslDa6mUiBpZ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x230.google.com (mail-pg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C65C1241F5; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x230.google.com with SMTP id i6so1402048pgv.3; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=L0Gy6hoI2Z8mW7CNnt3hatp3pyRMYFUUDwd2SLiJV/8=; b=MjaXgijR8SJ11u9FIyWuM6Nl9e+Iok75b6n8iAEG/io8AdMkIER7V+VA1gN83MAOaY akmHJD6afR8snWtJE9MvZYJ9bNuRaZebze3rkhvlftVUOSm/TOTO/SM35cJRi0noVl1S bHixZtU2ftgJcnhvv0dPRSJIDFU0V5h9AlMpZOKULQwGFHTKmLGQNukQBA6eCKPqcKV/ kNxnGvWR0zYQrOW0YsNiJvO16vR3uwsiCn44Ui46jTJ8iiRLFJbupBt0GUr2Wrsw/4es Nd8QSPDwsfFRLoVzW3rlA3KdDUXb5EJVIiNkahnSuIwNvrF4z555JVMyVZNL6fT9DCKx cVAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=L0Gy6hoI2Z8mW7CNnt3hatp3pyRMYFUUDwd2SLiJV/8=; b=a/yUqPNnjmEiLuIIGgqbFY7ttKYzKWn4chizH98FTv2k42IBqpYI38TeDjIpR9S8Tp snR5O5WiNxv2Pm0AikSzK1wK61PwSsxYS5PDhGkeLesx+RmyucIRnsPjUTfjf+j0bNwA HBMM3VBB2/6QCGfoQJP9vr+3tA9jZihVR3IEcUF+OU3j24NIWQ7guzHCI4p0ncEzesnU alAV7m0N+8wvbZSxVCj7XPs67R0nN8+cBovgL107AxbsqsBELR5W+L3/nrTVNAObRho6 nM2KbxqTu0SuE5wjvAOgg7nfpgu1PalGrkPIKc236hoj2o0hCB865bgmbiGGP0X5juz+ PaGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tC3JKMn/4fAquE1KQ6VsRyF3fdgXL/3UqNMFANF8W3SOb2XLTdU bEY3kGVdXOvar9WTquWRzsRz4QAQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48KjMxQu1d7+PO/xVJLIaIWHyx4lx6a6XVjixhTNM0RPVgRLaRn8bs7k3TzptoowFe4eA4vqg== X-Received: by 10.101.86.139 with SMTP id v11mr2824992pgs.420.1524083907024; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:2409:b933:ba41:5698? ([2601:647:4700:1280:2409:b933:ba41:5698]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u4sm3438527pfh.120.2018.04.18.13.38.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:38:23 -0700 Cc: gen-art@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <79BE7678-D806-4CAE-BB00-794DF35BD72C@gmail.com> References: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Pete Resnick X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 20:38:30 -0000 Pete, Thank for your review. I will address the remaining comments on the = draft. > On Apr 16, 2018, at 9:01 AM, Pete Resnick = wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Pete Resnick > Review result: Ready with Issues >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just > like any other last call comments. >=20 > For more information, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 > Reviewer: Pete Resnick > Review Date: 2018-04-16 > IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27 > IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat >=20 > Summary: >=20 > This document appears ready to go forward. The only "issue" I have = here might > end up being an editorial issue, but I list it as a Minor issue = because it > might be substantive. >=20 > Major issues: >=20 > None. >=20 > Minor issues: >=20 > In the paragraph after Figure 3, it says, "and subsequent values are > monotonically increasing". I'm not sure I understand what that means. = If 0 is > the highest priority, then 1 is a *lower* priority than 0, not an = increasing > priority. If you are trying to say that the numeric value of the = priority field > is increasing by 1 for each subsequent value, then "monotonically = increasing" > is wrong; the sequence "0 2 5 36" is monotonically increasing. You'd = say > instead, "and subsequent values increase by one". If all you mean is = that > values start at 0 and go up from there, I think you should just delete = the > entire phrase; it doesn't add anything and strikes me as confusing. >=20 > Nits/editorial comments: >=20 > Why are RFC 4086, RFC 8018, and ietf-ippm-metric-registry Informative > References instead of Normative? The uses appear to be normative. Ok. Will move them to Normative section. >=20 > I'm not clear why the examples were split between Section 6 and = Appendix A; > seems like you could just use the long one in section 6 and explain = only the > important bits. I also note that neither of them make any claims about > normativity: That is, most examples in documents I see always say = something > like, "If there is a conflict between anything here and the syntax in = the > model, the model wins." Is that not the case in these sorts of model = documents? We decided to split the examples between Section 6 and Appendix A = primarily because we wanted to focus on describing parts of the = configuration in Section 6. We kept the examples smaller and added a = description up front to describes them, so it was easy to follow them. = They can also be incomplete, specially as it relates to mandatory nodes.=20= The examples in the Appendix are more complete and can be used to test = any implementation of the model.=20 >=20 > Pet peeve: Except in Acknowledgements, I really don't like the use of = "we" in > IETF documents (even though it's becoming more and more common). It's = not clear > to whom it refers (the WG? the authors? the IETF?). In most places, it = can be > replaced with "This document", or using passive voice (e.g., s/We = define X as/X > is defined as). There are only 4 occurrences: Abstract, 1.1, 3, and = 3.1. Easy > enough to change. Ok. Will do. Thanks. >=20 > Note to shepherd: In the shepherding writeup, question 1 is not = answered > correctly. This document is going for *Proposed* Standard, not = *Internet* > Standard. Further, there is no explanation for why this should be a = standards > track document (though I believe the answer is pretty = straightforward). You > should go correct that. While you're at it, you can update answer 15, = as that > nit was corrected. >=20 >=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Wed Apr 18 15:26:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F0C1241F3; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fMtTgUXTVDcY; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22b.google.com (mail-pg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3777120047; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id j11so1522637pgf.2; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:26:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=2sx/EEKsCAAJWkmMbRWLde0EueKM5y1Uy7LKi83Xdxk=; b=iK731O3APgGXYuHF4lQjFRUU/2NJkyWDo+YYG2J8ecYpLlTuyUNg1HUbOzZeiVaHoR EErbsSwphsXiXo/C8k84FLj392pO26fi9ViIvKqOzNxb8h4pb07vJVyzgRSSb+G1bR/H d77jigz9BrMl5ruRmb4w5cKSkRQdhzY59GtRmImmf/4py5TEzSitVs8b3yHKzD220mgy M5nTCa4QFoU2SmJzS4QowoR+v+sL6n1lW7S+b4BeMTbg4fUq14pIQi3JcyUfKx4FGlsV 8902s04uxy8FxTOvOGbu8oY/UDAByKhsGp3HKlO7ngaLNxmHHd6x8X5wqRNY3jcGApB/ +wXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=2sx/EEKsCAAJWkmMbRWLde0EueKM5y1Uy7LKi83Xdxk=; b=YvrCQF8barjhKLHFTR3Kydx8xfXw2XqzEZEDTNS+SKrA5vtKx1+TPDZKhNYKJ5iQ1c f1r9KVp9vAhgDsTE2Hic1iyM/PdfudYa7bPNqQZ/AGw3np07iu8HUMXrZYiMB4hh7RyG WIi5r6r7qw3mGjDrLj982VTnkwSxmr0Aqpyor8xbUaskVu5Mv9MFcOPzfxn3HZ/B8oRg AlHgv0w6pIJBvR+94HY963sgrq3AjKKFos0UdEywAjzWmLkChi1TdElWEaw72CSK/WnQ rzOEyyJpbu8B5TGMgHq7dV4UHcvQEB2bWLEUweBIgELv5MSyhyPEoe8gsodqaRYKU0DZ hvyg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBbw04joaFgCWnm+UcRqOwMzw0K8zaeG00NGWu0jtmyJOsDLWS2 dIi5Ker3kz0Oe9bHanccnIDe67QYFKo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+W7N0/Wo2eiXVlSI52jcjkYsZQN8TFaEEzm6TAAte1wKgcH3JDfhSp/Q0sDTMs0yztrheu/w== X-Received: by 10.101.75.74 with SMTP id k10mr1026850pgt.227.1524090383368; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:2409:b933:ba41:5698? ([2601:647:4700:1280:2409:b933:ba41:5698]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p8sm3549712pgf.75.2018.04.18.15.26.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3E188A7D-7202-43AE-B970-466ACA8DD43A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <018201d3d659$ad822fa0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:26:20 -0700 Cc: ietf , ippm-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Message-Id: <882FEE3B-637F-4431-A0EF-CCD5F6BAD5D3@gmail.com> References: <008401d3d1ab$2ee8d520$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <21835DE5-FCE7-44D8-95B4-33B02C8F477F@gmail.com> <018201d3d659$ad822fa0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> To: "tom p." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 22:26:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3E188A7D-7202-43AE-B970-466ACA8DD43A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 17, 2018, at 7:37 AM, tom p. wrote: >=20 > Mahesh >=20 > Getting there. >=20 > I still cannot find a Reference in the I-D for RFC 2330 which appears = in > the module. Added a normative reference to RFC 2330. >=20 > 'max-count' I still find open to confusion - I was hoping that you = would > rename the leaf, and not the grouping, since it is the leaf, the data > object, that is an exponent. Renamed the leaf also to max-count-exponent. > Further down, you have >=20 > "The default > max-count value SHOULD be 32768.' > " > which I think wrong since the leaf is and was an exponent. After > renaming the leaf, not the grouping, I was expecting something like > 'The default value of max-count-exponent SHOULD be 15 which = corresponds > to a maximum value of 2**15 i.e.32768.=E2=80=99 I have added the above text in the model. Thanks. >=20 > On the presence/ boolean, and top level nodes being mandatory true, = your > solution looks fine (I said to you that my knowledge of YANG was = limited > and while this restriction has a faint echo in my memory, I cannot = find > the paragraph in RFC6020/RFC7950 that spells this out:-( >=20 > I am still thinking about secret key. >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mahesh Jethanandani" > > To: "tom p." > > Cc: >; >; > >; > > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:58 PM >=20 > Tom, >=20 > On this particular comment =E2=80=A6. >=20 >> On Apr 12, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani > wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> "container session-sender { >>> if-feature session-sender; >>> presence "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality."; >>> description >>> "Configuration of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity"; >>> leaf admin-state { >>> type boolean; >>> mandatory true; >>> description >>> "Indicates whether the device is allowed to operate >>> as a TWAMP Session-Sender."; >>> " >>>=20 >>> A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is that = the >>> admin-state boolean adds here since the presence container "Enables >>> TWAMP Session-Sender functionality.=E2=80=9D; >>=20 >> [mj] Good catch. Will remove the presence statement. >=20 > [[mj]] In addition to removing the presence statement, we decided to > change the =E2=80=98mandatory true' statement to a =E2=80=98default = true=E2=80=99 statement. > Just removing the presence statement results in the following error: >=20 > Validating yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang > > > yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang = > >:445: error: RFC 6087: 4.9: > top-level node twamp must not be mandatory >=20 > Cheers. >=20 >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_3E188A7D-7202-43AE-B970-466ACA8DD43A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Apr 17, 2018, at 7:37 AM, tom p. <daedulus@btconnect.com> wrote:

Mahesh

Getting there.

I still cannot find a Reference = in the I-D for RFC 2330 which appears in
the module.

Added a normative reference to RFC 2330.


'max-count' I still find open to = confusion - I was hoping that you would
rename the leaf, and not the grouping, since it is the leaf, = the data
object, that = is an exponent.

Renamed the leaf also to = max-count-exponent.

 Further down, you have

"The default
          &nb= sp;max-count value SHOULD be 32768.'
"
which I think = wrong since the leaf is and was an exponent.  After
renaming the leaf, not the = grouping, I was expecting something like
'The default value of max-count-exponent SHOULD be 15 which = corresponds
to a maximum = value of 2**15 i.e.32768.=E2=80=99

I have added the above text in the model.

Thanks.


On the presence/ boolean, and top level nodes being mandatory = true, your
solution = looks fine (I said to you that my knowledge of YANG was = limited
and while = this restriction has a faint echo in my memory, I cannot find
the paragraph in RFC6020/RFC7950 = that spells this out:-(

I am still thinking about secret key.

Tom Petch

----- Original Message = -----
From: "Mahesh = Jethanandani" <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
To: "tom p." <daedulus@btconnect.com>
Cc: <ietf@ietf.org>; <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>;
<draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang@ietf.org>; <ippm@ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 = 3:58 PM

Tom,

On this particular comment = =E2=80=A6.

On = Apr 12, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani
<mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:



"container session-sender {
      if-feature = session-sender;
      presence=  "Enables TWAMP Session-Sender functionality.";
      description
        "Configuration = of the TWAMP Session-Sender logical entity";
      leaf admin-state {
        type = boolean;
        mandatory = true;
        description
          "In= dicates whether the device is allowed to operate
          &nb= sp;as a TWAMP Session-Sender.";
"

A presence container is a boolean so I am unclear what it is = that the
admin-state boolean adds here since the presence = container "Enables
TWAMP Session-Sender = functionality.=E2=80=9D;

[mj] = Good catch. Will remove the presence statement.

[[mj]] In addition to removing the presence statement, we = decided to
change the = =E2=80=98mandatory true' statement to a =E2=80=98default true=E2=80=99 = statement.
Just removing = the presence statement results in the following error:

Validating yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang
<mailto:yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang>
yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang
<mailto:yang/ietf-twamp@2018-04-08.yang>:445: error: RFC 6087: = 4.9:
top-level = node twamp must not be mandatory

Cheers.


Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

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("...FB") > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert > Sent: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 16:23 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > Cc: Tianran Zhou ; Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Mickey Spiegel ; NVO3 ; Service Function Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPP= M WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various prot= ocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >> >> Hi Tianran, >> >> Tom's note already includes the hint: You'll add IOAM data to the protoc= ol/layer that you're interested in monitoring. Again using Geneve over IPv6= as an example: >> * If you're interested in the overlay, i.e. Geneve (e.g. timestamping >> the packet when it enters and exists the tunnel) - you'd add IOAM data >> to Geneve >> * If you're interested in the underlay, i.e. IPv6 (e.g. you'd like to >> understand which path packets take in the v6 network) - you'd add IOAM >> data to IPv6 >> * If you're interested in both, then you'd add IOAM data to Geneve and >> IPv6 >> > Frank, > > In that case why not just use a hop-by-hop option for measuring the under= lay and a destination option for measuring the overlay? The advantage is th= at this works _any_ IP encapsulation method or any IP protocol for that mat= ter. I don't believe adding ippm to every encapsulation protocol is straigh= tforward: e.g. > draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve describe but notes the limited size of h= eader, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre states that a new EtherType would be needed= just for this purpose. This also entails additional encapsulation-specific= HW support also, whereas support destination and hbh options could be more= generic. > > ...FB: There are quite a few deployment examples, such as overlay VPN ser= vices, where you don't have access to the underlay (e.g. IPv6) - but do con= trol the overlay and desire insights into your overlay using IOAM. Hence th= e need carry IOAM data along the overlay encapsulation. > Frank, I'm not sure I follow your argument. Maybe examining some of the scenarios would help (here in in the draft): Consider that an end host sources a simple TCP packet. So headers look like IP | TCP If they wish to do ippm for end-to-end measure, a destination option can be used, so packet looks like IP | ippm_DO | TCP Similarly, if they want to do per hop measurement they that could also use and appropiate HBH option IP | ippm_HBH | ippm_DO | TCP Now consider that a device in the network is tunneling the packet with encapsulation. Basic encapsulated packet looks like IP | encap_hdr | IP | TCP Measurements across the tunnel (ingress to egress point) could be done IP | ippm_DO | encap_hdr | IP | TCP (#1) Measuring underday then would be IP | ippm_HBH | encap_hdr | IP | TCP And again both can be done simulataneously IP | ippm_HBH | ippm_DO | encap_hdr | IP | TCP Note also that in simple ipip encasulation the encap_hdr would be null when the DO EH hae next protocol as IP. So that case would look like: IP | ippm_HBH | ippm_DO | IP | TCP Now if the ippm is in the encapsulation, then to measure across the tunnel packet (ingress to egress) looks something like IP | encap_hdr | ippm_data | IP | TCP (#2) Where ippm_data is either a field or TLV of the encapsulation (like would be in Geneve) or it's a layer in a header chain (like in the GRE proposal). If underlay is also measured also then that gives IP | ippm_HBH | encap_hdr | ippm_data | IP | TCP ' #1 and #2 above are the comparable cases. #2 (ippm in the encapsulation) measures from encapsulation to decapsulation of the tunnel. This corresponds to the tunnel ingress and egress points. In #1, the DO is used to measure between tunnel ingress and egress. Processing of the encapsulation header is also done at tunnel ingress and egress so that coincides with where DO is processed. In an implementation, the destination option can even be passed the encpasulation layer if desired so that it can be processed as though it were part of the encapsulation. So from this, I don't see any functional difference between using the ippm DO in the outer IP header of an encapsulation and putting the ippm data in the encapsulation. There might be an agument that this is needed to support IPv4, but even so I'm not sure that justifies retrofitting every IETF defined encapsulation protocol to support ippm. Also, I think how ippm works with simple IPIP encapsulation should be thought out since that is still probably the most common encapsulation deployed. There is no way to extend IPIP (doesn't even have encap header) and adding a new IP protocol code point (similar to draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre where a new EtherType for this purpose is proposed) is pretty unlikely to be accepted. So in this case of IPIP, it seems like the only answer is to use DO or HBH options, but as I mentioned I don't see that is any disadvantage or less functional of a solution (except for lacking IPv4 support). Tom > Frank > > Tom > >> Draft draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 already mentions layering (see sectio= n 3): >> "Layering: If several encapsulation protocols (e.g., in case of tunnelin= g) are stacked on top of each other, IOAM data-records could be present at = every layer. The behavior follows the ships-in-the-night model." >> >> Given the discussion here, we'll add some additional text in the next re= vision to make things crisper (e.g. adding an example might help). >> >> Frank >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tianran Zhou >> Sent: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 03:18 >> To: Tom Herbert >> Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners >> (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >> ; NVO3 ; Service >> Function Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >> >> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> >> I think it's better that Frank or Shwetha can explain the multi-layer us= e case in detail. >> >> Tianran >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:40 PM >>> To: Tianran Zhou >>> Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners >>> (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >>> ; NVO3 ; int-area >>> ; Service Function Chaining IETF list >>> ; IETF IPPM WG >>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:31 AM, Tianran Zhou = wrote: >>> > Hi Shwetha, >>> > >>> > You are talking about the outer encapsution. It is straight forward >>> > for the underlay to record by the header. But what about the >>> > overlay, i.e., inner encapsulation(e.g. geneve)? Without special >>> > configuration, intermediate node will not read the inner header, >>> > hence not be able to process IOAM.e >>> >>> Hi Tianran, >>> >>> I believe that is also not protocol conformant. Intermediate nodes >>> should not be processing transport layer data as this can lead to >>> misinterpretation and possibly silent data corruption. >>> >>> For instance, Geneve is a UDP encapsulation protocol with assigned port= 6081. >>> In order for an intermediate device to process the Geneve >>> encapsulation header it would need to look for packets with >>> destination port of 6081 since that is the only possible >>> discriminator. However, transport port numbers do not have global >>> meaning and hosts may use port numbers for other purposes (RFC7605 >>> describes this). So a packet to port 6081 might be something other >>> than Geneve and may be misinterpreted. If a misinterpreted packet is ch= anged (like ippm data is written) then that would be systematic silent data= corruption. >>> >>> As far as I know, hop-by-hop options is the only protocol confirming >>> mechanism that allows an intermediate note to change data of packet in = flight. >>> Encpasulation is the only conforming mechanism that allows an >>> intermediate node to add data (like extension headers) to a packet in f= light. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> > Maybe we are not synced by this overlay/underlay use case. :-) >>> > >>> > Tianran >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ________________________________ >>> > Sent from WeLink >>> > >>> > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) >>> > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Tianran Zhou;Frank Brockners >>> > (fbrockne);Mickey >>> > Spiegel;Tom >>> > Herbert >>> > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A NVO3;int-area;Service >>> > Function Chaining IETF list;IETF IPPM >>> > WG >>> > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IO= AM data in various >>> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> > =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-04-16 18:17:01 >>> > >>> > Hi Tianran, >>> > >>> >> If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >>> > >>> > Data draft is defining the data to be carried in IOAM in an >>> > encapsulation agnostic way, it does not specify how the >>> > encapsulation protocol is configured. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. >>> > >>> > While it is, it does not have to be a node by node configuration. >>> > It can be part of the encapsulation definition. >>> > >>> > For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data to >>> > be carried as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with >>> > highest order 2 bits set to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement >>> > IOAM will process the option and others will skip over. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > >>> > Shwetha >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > From: ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou >>> > >>> > Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM >>> > To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey >>> > Spiegel , Tom Herbert >>> > >>> > Cc: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , >>> > Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG >>> > >>> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi Frank, >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >>> > >>> > Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. In the >>> > draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the =E2=80=9Cprotocol-type=E2=80= =9D to indicate >>> > the layering. >>> > >>> > +--rw ioam >>> > >>> > +--rw ioam-profiles >>> > >>> > +--rw enabled? boolean >>> > >>> > +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name] >>> > >>> > +--rw profile-name string >>> > >>> > +--rw filter >>> > >>> > | +--rw filter-type? ioam-filter-type >>> > >>> > | +--rw acl-name? -> /acl:acls/acl/name >>> > >>> > +--rw protocol-type? ioam-protocol-type >>> > >>> > +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-trace}? >>> > >>> > | ... >>> > >>> > +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}? >>> > >>> > | ... >>> > >>> > +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}? >>> > >>> > | ... >>> > >>> > +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}? >>> > >>> > ... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Tianran >>> > >>> > From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com] >>> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM >>> > To: Tianran Zhou ; Mickey Spiegel >>> > ; Tom Herbert >>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi Tianran, >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also >>> > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 sections 3 and 4), which allows an >>> > operator to control by means of configuration where and for which >>> > traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed from the >>> > customer traffic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 =E2=80=93 wi= th >>> > IOAM data in both the Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would >>> > expect that the operator configures the endpoints of the Geneve >>> > tunnel to operate on the IOAM data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers >>> > that the Geneve tunnel >>> traverses to operate on the IOAM data in IPv6. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Frank >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > From: Tianran Zhou >>> > Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37 >>> > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >>> > ; Tom Herbert >>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi Frank, >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > How does a forwarder know when and where to insert the data? >>> > >>> > In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to >>> > scan all the protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Tianran >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank >>> > Brockners >>> > (fbrockne) >>> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM >>> > To: Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert >>> > >>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Tom, >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you seem to >>> > have in mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =E2=80= =9Clayering=E2=80=9D >>> > (see section 3.), i.e. if you=E2=80=99re running for example Geneve o= ver >>> > IPv6, then IOAM data could be encapsulated in both protocols, >>> > Geneve and >>> > IPv6 =E2=80=93 giving you visibility into the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80= =9D (IPv6) and the =E2=80=9Coverlay=E2=80=9D >>> (Geneve). >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Frank >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > From: ippm On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel >>> > Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22 >>> > To: Tom Herbert >>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Tom, >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert w= rote: >>> > >>> > Mickey, >>> > >>> > Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more >>> > fundamental concern. >>> > >>> > In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the >>> > text in the introduction: >>> > >>> > "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while >>> > the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" >>> > refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data >>> > packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically >>> > dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are >>> > transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] >>> > encapsulation." >>> > >>> > I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation >>> > traverse the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as >>> > being Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the >>> > destination UDP port number would be used to identify packets as >>> > being Geneve. So an intermediate device might be looking for UDP >>> > packets destined to port >>> > 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is >>> > correct, then this is a problem. >>> > >>> > UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device >>> > may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not >>> > actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: >>> > >>> > "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. >>> > It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port >>> > numbers >>> > -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port >>> > numbers are meaningful only at the endpoints." >>> > >>> > If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then >>> > misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. >>> > A protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that >>> > this would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network >>> > tries to interpret. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet >>> > traverses >>> > >>> > to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace >>> > option, >>> > >>> > but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the >>> > >>> > IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary >>> > >>> > depending on the transport. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, >>> > >>> > there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use >>> > >>> > Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 >>> > >>> > processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case >>> > >>> > many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet >>> > >>> > would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or >>> > >>> > VXLAN rather than NSH. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this >>> > application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and >>> > they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or >>> > encapsulation. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See >>> > >>> > draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been >>> > >>> > broken out into a separate draft. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Mickey >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Tom >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> Tom, >>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert w= rote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >>> >>> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Hi Frank, >>> >>> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line >>> >>> > and tagged >>> >>> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of >>> >>> > GIM>>other >>> >>> > working >>> >>> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the >>> >>> > center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. >>> >>> > Hope we'll have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is >>> >>> > acceptable to all. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > Regards, >>> >>> > Greg >>> >>> > >>> >>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >>> >>> > wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several >>> >>> >> drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> >>> >> protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >>> >>> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, >>> >>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we >>> >>> >> decided to take to the list was the question on whether >>> >>> >> draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.. After >>> >>> >> carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came >>> >>> >> to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does no= t meet the >>> >>> >> needs of >>> >>> >> IOAM: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >>> >>> >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80= =9COOAM header=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >> is 8 >>> >>> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the >>> >>> >> above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM >>> >>> >> header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2= =80=93 >>> >>> >> which is significant. >>> >>> Greg, >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced >>> >>> and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that >>> >>> four bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to >>> >>> type/length, for instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for >>> >>> option class, type, and length. Unless the the OAM data is zero >>> >>> length, I don't see how this adds up to only four bytes of overhead= . >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four >>> >> bytes of IOAM info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond >>> >> that, there are IOAM option specific fields. For example if doing >>> >> one of the IOAM trace options, there are four bytes of trace >>> >> option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen, Flags, and >>> >> RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list >>> >> containing the per hop IOAM information. >>> >> >>> >> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with >>> >> any of the IOAM information after the first four bytes. It >>> >> contains another variant of the information in the first four >>> >> bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight bytes. >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >>> >>> > >>> >>> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved >>> >>> > fields; >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a >>> >> timestamp block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which >>> >> the timestamp block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is >>> >> redundant for >>> IOAM. >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a >>> >> Version field would be a good thing. This does not require adding >>> >> four more bytes of overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also >>> >>> >> shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expe= cting >>> >>> >> additional implementations to be publicized soon. >>> >>> >> Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. >>> >>> >> Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in >>> >>> >> the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the = OOAM header. >>> >>> >> In >>> >>> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental >>> >>> >> questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as >>> >>> >> whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as >>> >>> >> Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This ultimately means >>> >>> >> that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the >>> >>> > GIM>> implementations >>> >>> > you >>> >>> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use >>> >>> > meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of >>> >>> > these implementations already updated to the newly proposed >>> >>> > iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them use OOAM Header. >>> >>> > Would you agree? >>> >>> > >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the = OOAM >>> >>> >> header would ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is >>> >>> >> defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D= , the next >>> >>> >> protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be >>> >>> >> encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code point= s. See e.g. >>> >>> >> the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >>> >>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >>> >>> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >>> >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >>> >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER >>> >>> > [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], >>> and >>> >>> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >>> >>> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration,= and >>> >>> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >>> >>> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data p= acket >>> >>> > traversing the underlay. >>> >>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits >>> >>> > will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the >>> >>> > statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks >>> >>> > that may benefit from using not only common OOAM Header but >>> >>> > common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. >>> >>> > >>> >>> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves fo= rward >>> >>> >> with specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into >>> >>> >> protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> Regards, Frank >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> ippm mailing list >>> >>> >> ippm@ietf.org >>> >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>> >>> >> >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> >>> > Int-area mailing list >>> >>> > Int-area@ietf.org >>> >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> ippm mailing list >>> >>> ippm@ietf.org >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > From nobody Thu Apr 19 07:47:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5B5124235; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:47:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LszbtBRkGgxY; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 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([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:47:11 -0500 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Tom Herbert CC: Tianran Zhou , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Mickey Spiegel , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , "IETF IPPM WG" Thread-Topic: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT01Rv7uw9TGdqO0+V2HJ61OA6MaQC+nQwgABu/4D//63XQIAAWkqAgAATngCAADaJgIAAEx0AgACyKYCAABh5EIAAwsqAgADPxZCAAld8AP//r8sA Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:47:10 +0000 Message-ID: <25f25dee271a47268cf63982e8d7135c@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.117.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:47:19 -0000 VG9tLA0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogVG9tIEhlcmJlcnQgPHRv bUBoZXJiZXJ0bGFuZC5jb20+IA0KU2VudDogRG9ubmVyc3RhZywgMTkuIEFwcmlsIDIwMTggMTY6 MzINClRvOiBGcmFuayBCcm9ja25lcnMgKGZicm9ja25lKSA8ZmJyb2NrbmVAY2lzY28uY29tPg0K Q2M6IFRpYW5yYW4gWmhvdSA8emhvdXRpYW5yYW5AaHVhd2VpLmNvbT47IFNod2V0aGEgQmhhbmRh cmkgKHNod2V0aGFiKSA8c2h3ZXRoYWJAY2lzY28uY29tPjsgTWlja2V5IFNwaWVnZWwgPG1zcGll Z2VsQGJhcmVmb290bmV0d29ya3MuY29tPjsgTlZPMyA8bnZvM0BpZXRmLm9yZz47IFNlcnZpY2Ug RnVuY3Rpb24gQ2hhaW5pbmcgSUVURiBsaXN0IDxzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+OyBJRVRGIElQUE0gV0cg 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<25f25dee271a47268cf63982e8d7135c@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> <25f25dee271a47268cf63982e8d7135c@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:43:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" Cc: Tianran Zhou , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Mickey Spiegel , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:43:39 -0000 On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 7:47 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: > Tom, > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert > Sent: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 16:32 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > Cc: Tianran Zhou ; Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Mickey Spiegel ; NVO3 ; Service Function Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPP= M WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various prot= ocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >> Tom, >> >> inline... ("...FB") >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Herbert >> Sent: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 16:23 >> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> Cc: Tianran Zhou ; Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) >> ; Mickey Spiegel ; >> NVO3 ; Service Function Chaining IETF list >> ; IETF IPPM WG >> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tianran, >>> >>> Tom's note already includes the hint: You'll add IOAM data to the proto= col/layer that you're interested in monitoring. Again using Geneve over IPv= 6 as an example: >>> * If you're interested in the overlay, i.e. Geneve (e.g. timestamping >>> the packet when it enters and exists the tunnel) - you'd add IOAM >>> data to Geneve >>> * If you're interested in the underlay, i.e. IPv6 (e.g. you'd like to >>> understand which path packets take in the v6 network) - you'd add >>> IOAM data to IPv6 >>> * If you're interested in both, then you'd add IOAM data to Geneve >>> and >>> IPv6 >>> >> Frank, >> >> In that case why not just use a hop-by-hop option for measuring the unde= rlay and a destination option for measuring the overlay? The advantage is t= hat this works _any_ IP encapsulation method or any IP protocol for that ma= tter. I don't believe adding ippm to every encapsulation protocol is straig= htforward: e.g. >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve describe but notes the limited size of = header, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre states that a new EtherType would be neede= d just for this purpose. This also entails additional encapsulation-specifi= c HW support also, whereas support destination and hbh options could be mor= e generic. >> >> ...FB: There are quite a few deployment examples, such as overlay VPN se= rvices, where you don't have access to the underlay (e.g. IPv6) - but do co= ntrol the overlay and desire insights into your overlay using IOAM. Hence t= he need carry IOAM data along the overlay encapsulation. >> > Frank, > > I'm not sure I follow your argument. Maybe examining some of the scenario= s would help (here in in the draft): > > Consider that an end host sources a simple TCP packet. So headers look li= ke > > IP | TCP > > If they wish to do ippm for end-to-end measure, a destination option can = be used, so packet looks like > > IP | ippm_DO | TCP > > Similarly, if they want to do per hop measurement they that could also us= e and appropiate HBH option > > IP | ippm_HBH | ippm_DO | TCP > > Now consider that a device in the network is tunneling the packet with en= capsulation. > > Basic encapsulated packet looks like > > IP | encap_hdr | IP | TCP > > Measurements across the tunnel (ingress to egress point) could be done > > IP | ippm_DO | encap_hdr | IP | TCP (#1) > > Measuring underday then would be > > IP | ippm_HBH | encap_hdr | IP | TCP > > And again both can be done simulataneously > > IP | ippm_HBH | ippm_DO | encap_hdr | IP | TCP > > Note also that in simple ipip encasulation the encap_hdr would be null wh= en the DO EH hae next protocol as IP. So that case would look like: > > IP | ippm_HBH | ippm_DO | IP | TCP > > Now if the ippm is in the encapsulation, then to measure across the tunne= l packet (ingress to egress) looks something like > > IP | encap_hdr | ippm_data | IP | TCP (#2) > > Where ippm_data is either a field or TLV of the encapsulation (like would= be in Geneve) or it's a layer in a header chain (like in the GRE proposal)= . > > If underlay is also measured also then that gives > > IP | ippm_HBH | encap_hdr | ippm_data | IP | TCP ' > #1 and #2 above are the comparable cases. > > #2 (ippm in the encapsulation) measures from encapsulation to decapsulati= on of the tunnel. This corresponds to the tunnel ingress and egress points.= In #1, the DO is used to measure between tunnel ingress and egress. Proces= sing of the encapsulation header is also done at tunnel ingress and egress = so that coincides with where DO is processed. In an implementation, the des= tination option can even be passed the encpasulation layer if desired so th= at it can be processed as though it were part of the encapsulation. > > So from this, I don't see any functional difference between using the ipp= m DO in the outer IP header of an encapsulation and putting the ippm data i= n the encapsulation. There might be an agument that this is needed to suppo= rt IPv4, but even so I'm not sure that justifies retrofitting every IETF de= fined encapsulation protocol to support ippm. > > Also, I think how ippm works with simple IPIP encapsulation should be tho= ught out since that is still probably the most common encapsulation deploye= d. There is no way to extend IPIP (doesn't even have encap > header) and adding a new IP protocol code point (similar to draft-weis-ip= pm-ioam-gre where a new EtherType for this purpose is > proposed) is pretty unlikely to be accepted. So in this case of IPIP, it = seems like the only answer is to use DO or HBH options, but as I mentioned = I don't see that is any disadvantage or less functional of a solution (exce= pt for lacking IPv4 support). > > ...FB: Thanks. I do follow your logic, though ignoring v4 isn't really an= option - hence the need to get IOAM data into the tunnel encaps - at least= into the most popular ones. > Frank, It's not a matter of ignoring IPv4, it's that IPv4 doesn't have the capabilities that seem to be needed. Unless the intent is to resurrect IPv4 options, there is no way to add ippm to IP packets other than by encapsulation. That means that the cases I listed above that don't involve encapsulation don't exist in IPv4. Also, again assuming IPv4 options are off the table, there is no way in IPv4 to perform ippm hop-by-hop measurement since there is no allowance in IP that intermediate devices can change IP payloads (see the UDP port number misinterpretation problem for example). Maybe it's time to sunset IPv4 :-) As for "popular encapsulations", I still don't see any feasible way to extend IPIP for ippm. Also, I believe the attempt to make GRE extensible as described in draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre is problematic in several ways-- I will send comments on that draft. Tom > Frank > > Tom > >> Frank >> >> Tom >> >>> Draft draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 already mentions layering (see secti= on 3): >>> "Layering: If several encapsulation protocols (e.g., in case of tunneli= ng) are stacked on top of each other, IOAM data-records could be present at= every layer. The behavior follows the ships-in-the-night model." >>> >>> Given the discussion here, we'll add some additional text in the next r= evision to make things crisper (e.g. adding an example might help). >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tianran Zhou >>> Sent: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 03:18 >>> To: Tom Herbert >>> Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners >>> (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >>> ; NVO3 ; Service >>> Function Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> >>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> I think it's better that Frank or Shwetha can explain the multi-layer u= se case in detail. >>> >>> Tianran >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:40 PM >>>> To: Tianran Zhou >>>> Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank >>>> Brockners >>>> (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >>>> ; NVO3 ; int-area >>>> ; Service Function Chaining IETF list >>>> ; IETF IPPM WG >>>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:31 AM, Tianran Zhou = wrote: >>>> > Hi Shwetha, >>>> > >>>> > You are talking about the outer encapsution. It is straight >>>> > forward for the underlay to record by the header. But what about >>>> > the overlay, i.e., inner encapsulation(e.g. geneve)? Without >>>> > special configuration, intermediate node will not read the inner >>>> > header, hence not be able to process IOAM.e >>>> >>>> Hi Tianran, >>>> >>>> I believe that is also not protocol conformant. Intermediate nodes >>>> should not be processing transport layer data as this can lead to >>>> misinterpretation and possibly silent data corruption. >>>> >>>> For instance, Geneve is a UDP encapsulation protocol with assigned por= t 6081. >>>> In order for an intermediate device to process the Geneve >>>> encapsulation header it would need to look for packets with >>>> destination port of 6081 since that is the only possible >>>> discriminator. However, transport port numbers do not have global >>>> meaning and hosts may use port numbers for other purposes (RFC7605 >>>> describes this). So a packet to port 6081 might be something other >>>> than Geneve and may be misinterpreted. If a misinterpreted packet is c= hanged (like ippm data is written) then that would be systematic silent dat= a corruption. >>>> >>>> As far as I know, hop-by-hop options is the only protocol confirming >>>> mechanism that allows an intermediate note to change data of packet in= flight. >>>> Encpasulation is the only conforming mechanism that allows an >>>> intermediate node to add data (like extension headers) to a packet in = flight. >>>> >>>> Tom >>>> >>>> > Maybe we are not synced by this overlay/underlay use case. :-) >>>> > >>>> > Tianran >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > ________________________________ >>>> > Sent from WeLink >>>> > >>>> > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) >>>> > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Tianran Zhou;Frank Brockners >>>> > (fbrockne);Mickey >>>> > Spiegel;Tom >>>> > Herbert >>>> > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A NVO3;int-area;Service >>>> > Function Chaining IETF list;IETF IPPM >>>> > WG >>>> > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of I= OAM data in various >>>> > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>>> > =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-04-16 18:17:01 >>>> > >>>> > Hi Tianran, >>>> > >>>> >> If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >>>> > >>>> > Data draft is defining the data to be carried in IOAM in an >>>> > encapsulation agnostic way, it does not specify how the >>>> > encapsulation protocol is configured. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. >>>> > >>>> > While it is, it does not have to be a node by node configuration. >>>> > It can be part of the encapsulation definition. >>>> > >>>> > For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data to >>>> > be carried as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with >>>> > highest order 2 bits set to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement >>>> > IOAM will process the option and others will skip over. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > >>>> > Shwetha >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou >>>> > >>>> > Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM >>>> > To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey >>>> > Spiegel , Tom Herbert >>>> > >>>> > Cc: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , >>>> > Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG >>>> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Hi Frank, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >>>> > >>>> > Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. In the >>>> > draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the =E2=80=9Cprotocol-type=E2=80= =9D to indicate >>>> > the layering. >>>> > >>>> > +--rw ioam >>>> > >>>> > +--rw ioam-profiles >>>> > >>>> > +--rw enabled? boolean >>>> > >>>> > +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name] >>>> > >>>> > +--rw profile-name string >>>> > >>>> > +--rw filter >>>> > >>>> > | +--rw filter-type? ioam-filter-type >>>> > >>>> > | +--rw acl-name? -> /acl:acls/acl/name >>>> > >>>> > +--rw protocol-type? ioam-protocol-type >>>> > >>>> > +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-trace}? >>>> > >>>> > | ... >>>> > >>>> > +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}? >>>> > >>>> > | ... >>>> > >>>> > +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}? >>>> > >>>> > | ... >>>> > >>>> > +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}? >>>> > >>>> > ... >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Tianran >>>> > >>>> > From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com] >>>> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM >>>> > To: Tianran Zhou ; Mickey Spiegel >>>> > ; Tom Herbert >>>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>>> > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Hi Tianran, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also >>>> > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 sections 3 and 4), which allows an >>>> > operator to control by means of configuration where and for which >>>> > traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed from the >>>> > customer traffic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 =E2=80=93 w= ith >>>> > IOAM data in both the Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would >>>> > expect that the operator configures the endpoints of the Geneve >>>> > tunnel to operate on the IOAM data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers >>>> > that the Geneve tunnel >>>> traverses to operate on the IOAM data in IPv6. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Frank >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: Tianran Zhou >>>> > Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37 >>>> > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Mickey >>>> > Spiegel ; Tom Herbert >>>> > >>>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>>> > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Hi Frank, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > How does a forwarder know when and where to insert the data? >>>> > >>>> > In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to >>>> > scan all the protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation? >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Tianran >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank >>>> > Brockners >>>> > (fbrockne) >>>> > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM >>>> > To: Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert >>>> > >>>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>>> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Tom, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you seem to >>>> > have in mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =E2= =80=9Clayering=E2=80=9D >>>> > (see section 3.), i.e. if you=E2=80=99re running for example Geneve = over >>>> > IPv6, then IOAM data could be encapsulated in both protocols, >>>> > Geneve and >>>> > IPv6 =E2=80=93 giving you visibility into the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2= =80=9D (IPv6) and the =E2=80=9Coverlay=E2=80=9D >>>> (Geneve). >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Frank >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > From: ippm On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel >>>> > Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22 >>>> > To: Tom Herbert >>>> > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>>> > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>>> > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in >>>> > various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Tom, >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert = wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Mickey, >>>> > >>>> > Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more >>>> > fundamental concern. >>>> > >>>> > In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the >>>> > text in the introduction: >>>> > >>>> > "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet >>>> > while the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "i= n-situ" >>>> > refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data >>>> > packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically >>>> > dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are >>>> > transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] >>>> > encapsulation." >>>> > >>>> > I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation >>>> > traverse the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as >>>> > being Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the >>>> > destination UDP port number would be used to identify packets as >>>> > being Geneve. So an intermediate device might be looking for UDP >>>> > packets destined to port >>>> > 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is >>>> > correct, then this is a problem. >>>> > >>>> > UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate >>>> > device may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that >>>> > are not actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: >>>> > >>>> > "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. >>>> > It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port >>>> > numbers >>>> > -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port >>>> > numbers are meaningful only at the endpoints." >>>> > >>>> > If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then >>>> > misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. >>>> > A protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that >>>> > this would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network >>>> > tries to interpret. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet >>>> > traverses >>>> > >>>> > to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace >>>> > option, >>>> > >>>> > but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the >>>> > >>>> > IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary >>>> > >>>> > depending on the transport. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, >>>> > >>>> > there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use >>>> > >>>> > Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 >>>> > >>>> > processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case >>>> > >>>> > many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet >>>> > >>>> > would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or >>>> > >>>> > VXLAN rather than NSH. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this >>>> > application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and >>>> > they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or >>>> > encapsulation. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See >>>> > >>>> > draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been >>>> > >>>> > broken out into a separate draft. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Mickey >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > Tom >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Tom, >>>> >> >>>> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert = wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >>>> >>> >>>> >>> wrote: >>>> >>> > Hi Frank, >>>> >>> > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes >>>> >>> > in-line and tagged >>>> >>> > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of >>>> >>> > GIM>>other >>>> >>> > working >>>> >>> > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the >>>> >>> > center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. >>>> >>> > Hope we'll have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is >>>> >>> > acceptable to all. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Regards, >>>> >>> > Greg >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several >>>> >>> >> drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>>> >>> >> protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >>>> >>> >> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, >>>> >>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we >>>> >>> >> decided to take to the list was the question on whether >>>> >>> >> draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.. After >>>> >>> >> carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came >>>> >>> >> to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does n= ot meet the >>>> >>> >> needs of >>>> >>> >> IOAM: >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, >>>> >>> >> an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2= =80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D >>>> >>> >> is 8 >>>> >>> >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the >>>> >>> >> above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM >>>> >>> >> header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes >>>> >>> >> =E2=80=93 which is significant. >>>> >>> Greg, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you >>>> >>> referenced and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is >>>> >>> greater that four bytes. In each there is some overhead >>>> >>> equivalent to type/length, for instance in Geneve four bytes are >>>> >>> needed for option class, type, and length. Unless the the OAM >>>> >>> data is zero length, I don't see how this adds up to only four byt= es of overhead. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four >>>> >> bytes of IOAM info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond >>>> >> that, there are IOAM option specific fields. For example if doing >>>> >> one of the IOAM trace options, there are four bytes of trace >>>> >> option header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen, Flags, and >>>> >> RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list >>>> >> containing the per hop IOAM information. >>>> >> >>>> >> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with >>>> >> any of the IOAM information after the first four bytes. It >>>> >> contains another variant of the information in the first four >>>> >> bytes of IOAM info, spread out over eight bytes. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Tom >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved >>>> >>> > fields; >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a >>>> >> timestamp block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which >>>> >> the timestamp block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is >>>> >> redundant for >>>> IOAM. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a >>>> >> Version field would be a good thing. This does not require adding >>>> >> four more bytes of overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also >>>> >>> >> shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re exp= ecting >>>> >>> >> additional implementations to be publicized soon. >>>> >>> >> Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. >>>> >>> >> Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM >>>> >>> >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of = the OOAM header. >>>> >>> >> In >>>> >>> >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental >>>> >>> >> questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as >>>> >>> >> whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as >>>> >>> >> Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This ultimately means >>>> >>> >> that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the >>>> >>> > GIM>> implementations >>>> >>> > you >>>> >>> > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use >>>> >>> > meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of >>>> >>> > these implementations already updated to the newly proposed >>>> >>> > iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them use OOAM Header. >>>> >>> > Would you agree? >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the= OOAM >>>> >>> >> header would ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is >>>> >>> >> defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80= =9D, the next >>>> >>> >> protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be >>>> >>> >> encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code poin= ts. See e.g. >>>> >>> >> the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >>>> >>> >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >>>> >>> > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >>>> >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >>>> >>> > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER >>>> >>> > [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], >>>> and >>>> >>> > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >>>> >>> > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration= , and >>>> >>> > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures tha= t >>>> >>> > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data = packet >>>> >>> > traversing the underlay. >>>> >>> > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning >>>> >>> > nits will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and >>>> >>> > the statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of >>>> >>> > networks that may benefit from using not only common OOAM >>>> >>> > Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves f= orward >>>> >>> >> with specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into >>>> >>> >> protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts. >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> Regards, Frank >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> >> ippm mailing list >>>> >>> >> ippm@ietf.org >>>> >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>>> >>> >> >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> > Int-area mailing list >>>> >>> > Int-area@ietf.org >>>> >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> ippm mailing list >>>> >>> ippm@ietf.org >>>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > From nobody Thu Apr 19 09:09:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99DD12DA48 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:09:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P6I0UlSJ9dnk for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x232.google.com (mail-wr0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19DE012D962 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x232.google.com with SMTP id u4-v6so15507044wrg.10 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:09:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TnIKROjqurI/AVxekyILnwe0FF79ayW1+W4rtkdKG0s=; b=dq20W7spxth0zv1U/pqblfFOVVUcf2wfwrxiC6DrVZafa1QTjQqCXVnZ0kUWxLHdyL iLjALiqx8Wt5Bcep4AYUUVi41ICaIrQTrplxF1NTudVI3ppx+QrwDR5yyl4Qzwkeqzd4 xXUVhOOtpe/4oCSSyLDDGrqCDhUPrR2OWtwJk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TnIKROjqurI/AVxekyILnwe0FF79ayW1+W4rtkdKG0s=; b=oxtkiTF/cclaCU3+5WRIE+d1irFGePQnLD1TwfzBOQoAJdilXMgV/LgPw43A9EhtxG xyfc3Dc8EPOdPQYNngKH5Z5Rofx+Vr85mkgP6b6l+dJPosCz2aaEeX7/FRfwCyBJxdFH 6KSe1YQPiDjRohGPhQp+eM/fKkNyPvWBt2hKwYJZ/pVmwl9dEp7LR9rOq/3lhUD50CCK idmZHETRvcYHJm8mj3GmU68pNs3TG/h7ulOJmKsLXoklrrwJ1hNWq6GrdMFjQycEp95E dtJN//VvJqSihEbHGWjgIUBtOriLvU95pL7qsQcFokVW2rzWwav6SoZdCeVk8Ck9Oo4G Dm0g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tANUsPNrQkT/o02w6c/MZ4cVz9Zj9f9JxYfr417KBEcqvzRt9kj t0kCq7aURPDY8NP1dBNbJc84ZRyqMmEf5uGDSZ5kdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+D0ZTNstH4ix52cYM8pPgM8tTgQ7RA0YlKrredfq77hMzXFqRTg1AfPe+hJ2X0RSBJTa+12/RFoHfIiUsktBw= X-Received: by 10.28.140.204 with SMTP id o195mr5167383wmd.35.1524154163516; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.170.155 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:09:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: John Lemon Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:09:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" Cc: Greg Mirsky , NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1145b872800055056a35cb70" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:09:29 -0000 --001a1145b872800055056a35cb70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I never saw a response to the request for a pointer to an OOAM implementation, so I assume none exist. I've seen several good arguments for why the existing IOAM implementation, for which several implementations exist, meets the needs for IOAM. I think it is time to put to bed the request to examine merging OOAM and IOAM. Let's move forward with IOAM and not hold it up. Respectfully, John On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > thanks =E2=80=93 and it seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with re= gards to > efficiency (4 bytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of) o= f > OOAM. > > > > On the IOAM implementation: There are several implementations of IOAM. > Some of which have recently been worked on and shown at an IETF hackathon= , > see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides- > 100-hackathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and > VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofino.= You > probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E . > > Below you seem to be specifically referring to the IOAM open source > implementation in FD.io/VPP: There are protocol encapsulations for > VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code uses > the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverages= MD-Type 2 for > NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in SFC whether to= use > MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t yet= settled, > hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain from updating the code until SFC WG has come = to a > conclusion. > > > > Could you provide a pointer to an OOAM implementation? > > > > Thanks, > > Frank > > > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54 > *To:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG ; NVO3 ; Service > Function Chaining IETF list ; int-area@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - > follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Frank, > > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and tagge= d > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other working > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the center of > the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have mor= e > opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < > fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve= -00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to tak= e > to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header > could be leveraged. After carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-= header, > I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not = meet the needs of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mention= ed > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an > unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > - provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > - supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > - is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > > * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional i= mplementations to > be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OO= AM > in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM h= eader. In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about th= e > OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms > within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations you > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data TL= V > in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations > already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in > making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? > > > > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM head= er would > ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bi= t > field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols = that IOAM data > needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and > > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > > traversing the underlay. > > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will > update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quite > clear in identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using no= t > only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo > Request/Reply > . > > > > With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wit= h > specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93= per the > above mentioned drafts. > > > > Regards, Frank > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --001a1145b872800055056a35cb70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I never saw a response to the request for a pointer to an = OOAM implementation, so I assume none exist.

I've se= en several good arguments for why the existing IOAM implementation, for whi= ch several implementations exist, meets the needs for IOAM.

<= /div>
I think it is time to put to bed the request to examine merging O= OAM and IOAM. Let's move forward with IOAM and not hold it up.

Respectfully, John


On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:06 = AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:<= br>

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

thanks =E2=80=93 and i= t seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with regards to efficiency (4 b= ytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of) of OOAM.

=C2=A0

On the IOAM implementa= tion: There are several implementations of IOAM. Some of which have recentl= y been worked on and shown at an IETF hackathon, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-hac= kathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and= VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofino. = You probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E .

Below you seem to be s= pecifically referring to the IOAM open source implementation in FD.io/VPP: = There are protocol encapsulations for VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code us= es the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverage= s MD-Type 2 for NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in = SFC whether to use MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t yet settled, hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain fr= om updating the code until SFC WG has come to a conclusion.

=C2=A0

Could you provide a po= inter to an OOAM implementation?

=C2=A0

Thanks,<= /span>

Frank

=C2=A0

From: = Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Sent: Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; Service Function Chaining IETF list <= sfc@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols = - follow up from WG discussion in London

=C2=A0

Hi Frank,

thank you for sharing your points. Please find my no= tes in-line and tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very much releva= nt to work of other working groups that directly work on the overlay encaps= ulations in the center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more opinio= ns to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (f= brockne) <fbrock= ne@cisco.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question on = whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After care= fully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not m= eet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 = bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of = 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

GIM>> The difference in four octets is because= OOAM Header:

  • provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;<= /u>
  • supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
  • is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite th= e question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 list hasn=E2= =80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In addition, the th= read revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM me= chanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification.

GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported= by the implementations you refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposal= s were to use meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some o= f these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them us= e OOAM Header. Would you agree?

=C2=A0

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM d= ata needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code = points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis= -ippm-ioam-gre-00.

GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction = section states:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0New protocols that support overlay netw= orks like VxLAN-GPE

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.iet= f-nvo3-gue], Geneve

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-= bier-mpls-encapsulation], and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-pr= otocol payload, e.g.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Oper= ations, Administration, and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct ty= pes.=C2=A0 That ensures that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing f= ate with Overlay data packet

=C2=A0 =C2=A0traversing the underlay.=C2=A0

I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along wit= h cleaning nits will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the= statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks that may ben= efit from using not only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply.

=C2=A0

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

=C2=A0


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--001a1145b872800055056a35cb70-- From nobody Thu Apr 19 09:15:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BEF4126B6E; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LLfoZ8sCZBbv; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8696E1200E5; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id d79-v6so1011246lfd.0; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Lqxlpp/4ACQzhoIYqRDPC9K9AD+biepnXMzFOnR8Pik=; b=T+pTzXFXE4bMpH2jVmtqd47zrkPIoq44XPyq3Aqc8OrCOWTiVfcMaQMKkngl1vLgLY /s70za2uXtGiNQhczANGbvbEqUmYGAQTtxdwhjZbYuHMj04VSm47H5O0dHHw74l1J3h4 vsbafRI6kuwdSVcXx+Ul7S4EOtijFrMIXmErLxJF/K6NbnxIXRa5NsEBVrGjVpnupZV2 4op6TS8t+76lK2kN8YtOV0ResFpKfpCnGE0eibLUt6IBNfsCBUGJCqINf0a+macJjs16 nG2dSFn8cjp1uGbLpi/qqeDMlC/NH10PJXSunUziAqNLPeC4Z3zm0sF6Ys1UBHQe5XBy RdVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Lqxlpp/4ACQzhoIYqRDPC9K9AD+biepnXMzFOnR8Pik=; b=e6zdzoCT5dTURwTvXKyI/l+aTjnQ+0LhMsiTEI1x7dXMaz9bTE3OTQOpRv4+onJbBm ltgyvijp9HJdwFNuyOQOST6ahJM8wwIEDs0wsLdW3Q/Ln21x0jhMdD7hCzgAplASVOAp t/9ONGQAuEzc0ZqqXfJw2OG9acdx6wxIoaOTz4T9O5oVu9Vk/mleCAwD+LYiw2NR+beG EF1k1QFJ5hOXMKIeJSAFB8BLjfpvncXAI5LKXMPrfa48JptBcoT7MutVyqOBEp7vv2EO FK3NdrZ3LEnF8dNYOnrlLY84gR/CKgrmf5qgppN/y8C3/kC2smmlclXXcPGnXlEEf3VA hmkA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAwCfhB78LNENk9t41JQEGHJQB7EBW+VjGhj78xFBMtV9wj6C4X 3etQJVOwAcLdM35kckZXMLhphJ9CkK1OAKfS4Jo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqAdHOFquJSb8yN7U9rHLkmgPNAGTeh2kahgO31UwXIEgDuonE4ncaAffiN9aN7Wp49ZMGuw3gBGLMRMt+1LAA= X-Received: by 2002:a19:aacd:: with SMTP id t196-v6mr466870lfe.60.1524154510592; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:15:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:15:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:15:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" Cc: IETF IPPM WG , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , int-area@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002fcfa7056a35e02f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:15:19 -0000 --0000000000002fcfa7056a35e02f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, et. al, we have a very good discussion, thank you. I have a question and appreciate your consideration: - encapsulation documents refer to IOAM HDR, its length is reflected in the field labeled either Length or IOAM HDR len. But I cannot find the definition of IOAM HDR. What is the IOAM HDR? Regards, Greg On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve= -00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to tak= e > to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header > could be leveraged. After carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-= header, > I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not = meet the needs of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mention= ed > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an > unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > > * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional i= mplementations to > be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OO= AM > in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM h= eader. In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about th= e > OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms > within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM head= er would > ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bi= t > field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols = that IOAM data > needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wit= h > specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93= per the > above mentioned drafts. > > > > Regards, Frank > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --0000000000002fcfa7056a35e02f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank, et. al,
we have a very good discussion, than= k you. I have a question and appreciate your consideration:
    <= li>encapsulation documents refer to IOAM HDR, its length is reflected in th= e field labeled either Length or IOAM HDR len. But I cannot find the defini= tion of IOAM HDR. What is the IOAM HDR?

= Regards,
Greg


On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Frank Bro= ckners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-= brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question = on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After c= arefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the con= clusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach fo= r IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unneces= sary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon.= Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 li= st hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In additi= on, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM h= eader are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to t= he OOAM header. This ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely= specification.

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext = Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code poi= nts. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis-ip= pm-ioam-gre-00.

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= u>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


_______________________________________________
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ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


--0000000000002fcfa7056a35e02f-- From nobody Thu Apr 19 09:31:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233CB12DA28; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:31:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KJcJuJNxH0z4; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BDEF12DA4F; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id x130-v6so1047960lff.9; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:31:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PXxDqdkMEO81504Z0o2gv7fJaO1X6Dsm2ZmgojdsdgY=; b=UqMDMfzaAq3x4/uFAmXQoxSZu5jwlbQZrNZOANbXkuwdgiXIR37jPITU6SXDXTE/5B 5DkkHnbzaDU59OkcMHvc9+dh0NU4IsWPCrqpX8PFcqzNN/Ab3WYRs3l3IUv7GC7bWH9v qj1AmVcFRVVMzckZdukjZ2THGKIyuRqnr7+rWTPJZV9Imo2ffpbGHU1PbmZDmUVVr74B mKEduKvCjsBW0halpw22TTnNOKVMH1aU2qdSv8P/ld+P86c3mpBK6nv1HA7ZRiE4//CQ lcHXPg15wuFdFGXblvvWhAgNNN8hlu1+HfLfaQzbN4reegn9VXre+tIQC+V6ZG1xXb/B BF4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PXxDqdkMEO81504Z0o2gv7fJaO1X6Dsm2ZmgojdsdgY=; b=Emlz+7+bUkdyMH5G597pfDFcbT3z5SOOhiiESxXB++IlM5qckZKgL+ZdD3eRi3oUsJ oHoX2N+7M8dNj0S58gt/mCcBqnKa6d9EOt0CcuKFq+k+6IBsFS04gIaOf5VnARCLwpgf RBJvEHNxi5WRB/mBsit4yyPz879CcQg0TVIoU0Q46vtQg7oKAruTkhqaYl1nJlo0piD/ bkyTLHJ2eO5m+/KvmZCK2o3kK8Vfx7mYNo/7ej1OvbdAttXw6U/iZE/YDQ8S7C8XE2md sed23TnzTqlwxdy3UsMxl+5M00qt6ofVV5g///3PITdMnPTXzXU04WylWhFF51AD3U8f 88Fw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAfPbkaZ7XE7+bCzSfvawZIsybGEP1cyDxolJa+eqJIpIpM8269 s2ag/ImveH99L5NRYrXyx6kEdeGVf/yINewYPHo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49aasDDIQJqsm3jdNOhld8KDkeSrPWRwe8Xx9ciJvnzDUS1xeoaN2k7GUT86LSu0VvgMvibtIAMwERHRjJMFO8= X-Received: by 10.46.156.81 with SMTP id t17mr4990143ljj.58.1524155460180; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:31:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.73.66 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:30:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:30:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: John Lemon Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f4f5e80ee2f8c96174056a361897" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:31:10 -0000 --f4f5e80ee2f8c96174056a361897 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, I don't argue with the importance of interoperable implementations (though early implementations accept the risk of non-compliance with the final specification, for example, SFC NSH). At the same time, I don't think that mere fact of existing implementation should cancel discussion of technical characteristics of the proposed approaches to hybrid OAM. Regards, Greg On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:09 AM, John Lemon wrote= : > I never saw a response to the request for a pointer to an OOAM > implementation, so I assume none exist. > > I've seen several good arguments for why the existing IOAM implementation= , > for which several implementations exist, meets the needs for IOAM. > > I think it is time to put to bed the request to examine merging OOAM and > IOAM. Let's move forward with IOAM and not hold it up. > > Respectfully, John > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < > fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > >> Hi Greg, >> >> >> >> thanks =E2=80=93 and it seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with r= egards to >> efficiency (4 bytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of) = of >> OOAM. >> >> >> >> On the IOAM implementation: There are several implementations of IOAM. >> Some of which have recently been worked on and shown at an IETF hackatho= n, >> see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-10 >> 0-hackathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and >> VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofino= . You >> probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E . >> >> Below you seem to be specifically referring to the IOAM open source >> implementation in FD.io/VPP: There are protocol encapsulations for >> VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code uses >> the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverage= s MD-Type 2 for >> NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in SFC whether t= o use >> MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t ye= t settled, >> hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain from updating the code until SFC WG has come= to a >> conclusion. >> >> >> >> Could you provide a pointer to an OOAM implementation? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Frank >> >> >> >> *From:* Greg Mirsky >> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54 >> *To:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >> *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG ; NVO3 ; Service >> Function Chaining IETF list ; int-area@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - >> follow up from WG discussion in London >> >> >> >> Hi Frank, >> >> thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >> tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of other >> working groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the >> center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'= ll >> have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < >> fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: >> >> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing >> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-genev= e-00, >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to ta= ke >> to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header >> could be leveraged. After carefully considering >> draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80= =9COOAM >> header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >> >> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM he= ader=E2=80=9D is 8 >> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentio= ned >> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add a= n >> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >> >> GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >> >> - provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; >> - supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >> - is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >> >> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at >> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional = implementations to >> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on O= OAM >> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM = header. In >> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about t= he >> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms >> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >> >> GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations yo= u >> refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-data T= LV >> in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementations >> already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in >> making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >> >> >> >> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM hea= der would >> ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-b= it >> field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols= that IOAM data >> needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code >> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >> >> GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >> >> New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >> >> [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >> >> [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and >> >> NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >> >> Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >> >> Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >> >> Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet >> >> traversing the underlay. >> >> I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will >> update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are quit= e >> clear in identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using n= ot >> only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo >> Request/Reply >> . >> >> >> >> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wi= th >> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80= =93 per the >> above mentioned drafts. >> >> >> >> Regards, Frank >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> > --f4f5e80ee2f8c96174056a361897 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,
I don't argue with the importance of inte= roperable implementations (though early implementations accept=C2=A0the ris= k=C2=A0of non-compliance=C2=A0with the final specification, for=C2=A0exampl= e, SFC NSH). At the same time, I don't think that mere fact of existing= implementation should cancel discussion of technical characteristics of th= e proposed approaches to hybrid OAM.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:09 AM, John Lemon <john.lemon@broadco= m.com> wrote:
I never saw a response to the request for a pointer to an OOAM implemen= tation, so I assume none exist.

I've seen several go= od arguments for why the existing IOAM implementation, for which several im= plementations exist, meets the needs for IOAM.

I t= hink it is time to put to bed the request to examine merging OOAM and IOAM.= Let's move forward with IOAM and not hold it up.

<= div>Respectfully, John


On = Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco= .com> wrote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

thanks =E2=80=93 and i= t seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with regards to efficiency (4 b= ytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of) of OOAM.

=C2=A0

On the IOAM implementa= tion: There are several implementations of IOAM. Some of which have recentl= y been worked on and shown at an IETF hackathon, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-hac= kathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and= VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofino. = You probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E .

Below you seem to be s= pecifically referring to the IOAM open source implementation in FD.io/VPP: = There are protocol encapsulations for VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code us= es the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverage= s MD-Type 2 for NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in = SFC whether to use MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t yet settled, hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain fr= om updating the code until SFC WG has come to a conclusion.

=C2=A0

Could you provide a po= inter to an OOAM implementation?

=C2=A0

Thanks,<= /span>

Frank

=C2=A0

From: = Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Sent: Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; Service Function Chaining IETF list <= sfc@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols = - follow up from WG discussion in London

=C2=A0

Hi Frank,

thank you for sharing your points. Please find my no= tes in-line and tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very much releva= nt to work of other working groups that directly work on the overlay encaps= ulations in the center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more opinio= ns to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (f= brockne) <fbrock= ne@cisco.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question on = whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After care= fully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not m= eet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 = bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of = 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

GIM>> The difference in four octets is because= OOAM Header:

  • provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;<= /u>
  • supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
  • is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite th= e question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 list hasn=E2= =80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In addition, the th= read revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM me= chanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification.

GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported= by the implementations you refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposal= s were to use meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some o= f these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them us= e OOAM Header. Would you agree?

=C2=A0

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM d= ata needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code = points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis= -ippm-ioam-gre-00.

GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction = section states:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0New protocols that support overlay netw= orks like VxLAN-GPE

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.iet= f-nvo3-gue], Geneve

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-= bier-mpls-encapsulation], and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-pr= otocol payload, e.g.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Oper= ations, Administration, and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct ty= pes.=C2=A0 That ensures that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing f= ate with Overlay data packet

=C2=A0 =C2=A0traversing the underlay.=C2=A0

I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along wit= h cleaning nits will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the= statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks that may ben= efit from using not only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply.

=C2=A0

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm



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Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: IETF IPPM WG , NVO3 , "Service Function Chaining IETF list" , "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AdPRe/DslDwu34XkSmq8g6ttV3Kt0QGp44SAAAmXEdA= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:54:26 +0000 Message-ID: <81b2598c54944ba887248cbce2f66575@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.117.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_81b2598c54944ba887248cbce2f66575XCHRCD008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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10:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id z130-v6so1304823lff.5; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 10:26:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rTpllG5fD8EBdmzlV5NbG3faT5Fm2ZLhDJ7v2x3zKe4=; b=H/vfP+O8W8RDJ5KvYA44AoagXkA6SvzQj0RaoRhimepgGwyv7k6mpT0PIx0dWuTVH9 8eygVI8nM7cEMDG4ggL1anXi1gsjHXV2k+rHX1FdbS/nAK6x9z8g1Ub0WQ38G5Yzt5PZ eUakMECtIgyshkzW6G+oVnljVV7liUQZUa0ECMrr0uj/QYvV+vKBk1VU1IjL82PxcqZY NsVXoXnwD2rcTLW/IkX4n/OsL4Rx4jA3VBTkfqu2rtbMk3WBT+d7IeXK1hBJKfXVsNkX 7XVn5mTJl+5P9SPepmoAekrZi15thuafuoP/OPCMx5Mci/ubVt2A728sPuWBaVlfZSfG yO0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rTpllG5fD8EBdmzlV5NbG3faT5Fm2ZLhDJ7v2x3zKe4=; b=T1ARVY28s8togBcOpO6OgyefWETAz2IA+CFZlibkWibeRcQGriMJFOZ7NQxOfYX3k/ 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Service Function Chaining IETF list , "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bb66b8056a36dfcd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 17:26:42 -0000 --000000000000bb66b8056a36dfcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, thank you for your expedient response. Yes, clarification and consistent terminology, of course as different encapsulations allow that, will help. What I'm looking through the iOAM encapsulation drafts is the answer to this question How a system that is not using iOAM can get to the data payload that follows the iOAM message? Is there the field in the iOAM shim that allows the system to skip over the iOAM message (by iOAM message I mean iOAM shim and iOAM data)? Would such system be required to parse other than iOAM shim constructs? I couldn't find this scenario being discussed in any of iOAM encapsulation drafts. Have I missed it? Regards, Greg On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > good catch =E2=80=93 there is a bit of loose language in some of the draf= ts. We=E2=80=99ll > make things crisper in the next rev. Note that there is no generic =E2=80= =9CIOAM > header=E2=80=9D but that definition is always within the context of a par= ticular > encapsulation protocol. draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00 already has a > definition of the IOAM header (for GRE) =E2=80=93 see section 3. For the = other > drafts, we use language like =E2=80=9CThe IOAM related fields in VXLAN-GP= E are > defined as follows=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CThe fields related to the encapsu= lation of IOAM > data fields in Geneve are defined as follows=E2=80=9D, i.e. the informati= on that is > required to perform the encapsulation into the parent protocol, along wit= h > the actual IOAM data fields. Moving forward, we can be crisper and split > things into an =E2=80=9Cencapsulation dependent part=E2=80=9D and a =E2= =80=9Cdata part=E2=80=9D. > > > > Frank > > > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 18:15 > *To:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG ; NVO3 ; Service > Function Chaining IETF list ; int-area@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - > follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Frank, et. al, > > we have a very good discussion, thank you. I have a question and > appreciate your consideration: > > - encapsulation documents refer to IOAM HDR, its length is reflected > in the field labeled either Length or IOAM HDR len. But I cannot find = the > definition of IOAM HDR. What is the IOAM HDR? > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < > fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: > > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing > with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols > (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve= -00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to tak= e > to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header > could be leveraged. After carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-= header, > I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not = meet the needs of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mention= ed > drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an > unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. > > * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at > recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional i= mplementations to > be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely > specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on OO= AM > in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM h= eader. In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about th= e > OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanisms > within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This > ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM head= er would > ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bi= t > field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols = that IOAM data > needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code > points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward wit= h > specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93= per the > above mentioned drafts. > > > > Regards, Frank > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > --000000000000bb66b8056a36dfcd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank,
thank you for your expedient response. Yes, = clarification=C2=A0and consistent terminology, of course as different encap= sulations allow that, will help. What I'm looking through the iOAM enca= psulation drafts is the answer to this question How a system that is not us= ing iOAM can get to the data payload that follows the iOAM message? Is ther= e the field in the iOAM shim that allows the system to skip over the iOAM m= essage (by iOAM message I mean iOAM shim and iOAM data)? Would such system = be required to parse other than iOAM shim constructs? I couldn't find t= his scenario being discussed in any of iOAM encapsulation drafts. Have I mi= ssed it?

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at= 9:54 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com> w= rote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

good catch =E2=80=93 t= here is a bit of loose language in some of the drafts. We=E2=80=99ll make t= hings crisper in the next rev. Note that there is no generic =E2=80=9CIOAM header=E2=80=9D but that definition is a= lways within the context of a particular encapsulation protocol. draft-weis= -ippm-ioam-gre-00 already has a definition of the IOAM header (for GRE) =E2= =80=93 see section 3. For the other drafts, we use language like =E2=80=9CThe IOAM related fields in VXLAN-GPE are defined as follows= =E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CThe fields related to the encapsulation of IOAM data = fields in Geneve are defined as follows=E2=80=9D, i.e. the information that= is required to perform the encapsulation into the parent protocol, along with the actual IOAM data fields. Moving forward, we can be crisper = and split things into an =E2=80=9Cencapsulation dependent part=E2=80=9D and= a =E2=80=9Cdata part=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

Frank

=C2=A0

From: = Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Sent: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 18:15
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; Service Function Chaining IETF list <= sfc@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols = - follow up from WG discussion in London

=C2=A0

Hi Frank, et. al,

we have a very good discussion, thank you. I have a = question and appreciate your consideration:

  • encapsulation documents refer to IOAM HDR, its length is reflected in the f= ield labeled either Length or IOAM HDR len. But I cannot find the definitio= n of IOAM HDR. What is the IOAM HDR?

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Frank Brockners (fb= rockne) <fbrockn= e@cisco.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question on = whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After care= fully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not m= eet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 = bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of = 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite th= e question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 list hasn=E2= =80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In addition, the th= read revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM me= chanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification.

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM d= ata needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code = points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis= -ippm-ioam-gre-00.

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

=C2=A0


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M. Heard" CC: IETF , IPPM , 6man Thread-Topic: Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC Thread-Index: AQHT1CINNWLrZp0gnEmOO2ejSajh+KQByI8QgAB2xgCABm7FsA== Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 22:42:36 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EB2B4@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [69.141.203.172] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EB2B4njmtexg5researc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-19_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804190201 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 22:43:20 -0000 --_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EB2B4njmtexg5researc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWlrZSwgUGxlYXNlIHNlZSBpbi1saW5lIHJlcGxpZXMsDQpBbA0KDQpGcm9tOiBDLiBNLiBI ZWFyZCBbbWFpbHRvOmhlYXJkQHBvYm94LmNvbV0NClNlbnQ6IFN1bmRheSwgQXByaWwgMTUsIDIw MTggMTE6NTYgQU0NClRvOiBNT1JUT04sIEFMRlJFRCBDIChBTCkgPGFjbUByZXNlYXJjaC5hdHQu Y29tPg0KQ2M6IElFVEYgPGlldGZAaWV0Zi5vcmc+OyBJUFBNIDxpcHBtQGlldGYub3JnPjsgNm1h 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mM-Gd7nMyT0 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x230.google.com (mail-wr0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 727D512E885 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x230.google.com with SMTP id v60-v6so18063686wrc.7 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:53:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p2HdNYLhCRrHzdwImafYHWyKl4fnp+EOoKlXqbumTaI=; b=JSgsLUhZK2EgSQpI6jWAtQOYHxdX6BHReVsb4KU2ye4CmVXMgaoD6muEkGpfGcrO4N G0U43HWS3ara7icXzc/koyk01LPPeQyjP4vpIdN8UdMfCfr2cUvEmJz7G+fcG2OCCGvS I/ps0T9XAQ+e5Ss/kKhym2Rq67tHJSZ5ZInAE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p2HdNYLhCRrHzdwImafYHWyKl4fnp+EOoKlXqbumTaI=; b=TXgTfaVbmBagayWfdFfB1gnFeefnFOf9/9XQneS06OuHtUZtopuepe4w5ujlAeRenR IMCQdOq3kxTZGBKUVd/npQcGS8i/zl2d0Qlojte4Enuep0gk7nu0au5FCbfjEV9tqIPI UaIbBT9XjTc/8cFbsKg8MuNOQ8Ky1lBEbtuqmgZZXvFAjPrETMB0sFA9J9ifrZ746lct gnxhnds7B3lUSYTA91jtIh6bdH/mHXsTyyDeX+XzaWryURFJcnAca0Lu6fKAmmOCIqOO MI5a0/b7rUkwUpgNZiTFL/A/Jnx4o+pHx3oihDSANxGlzaEThYQJmqyO9pHq0hX0d5xd h3KA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tA7QFJ8l/LEGzo9M8WTjq9leuI2JkVJFpTGkhBuq7rR2xs5sK96 6szPRRYJtUJF/lMw0d+2VBob1JHAnl+3UCACM0OQRQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/HcgDZmw7JPdRJkMiRY+ELkOaaa6V0T1sFkOLfQ53kiKq4PSsM75oaHysGocveOl/9I7PWLd7/V/2PDsKDSFk= X-Received: by 10.28.60.194 with SMTP id j185mr324987wma.159.1524178417907; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:53:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.170.155 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:53:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: John Lemon Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:53:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a4d0c2cb223056a3b7197" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 22:53:44 -0000 --001a114a4d0c2cb223056a3b7197 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg, I never stated "that mere fact of existing implementation should cancel discussion of technical characteristics of the proposed approaches to hybrid OAM". I just noted implementation status as AN important thing to consider. I also noted that "I've seen several good arguments for why the existing IOAM implementation [...] meets the needs for IOAM." I'm not trying to end discussion of the technical characteristics. I'm stating that I believe that it has been well argued that IOAM is mature enough that it is clear that it is sufficiently different from OOAM as to not share the same header. I hope that clarifies my intent. Regards, John On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi John, > I don't argue with the importance of interoperable implementations (thoug= h > early implementations accept the risk of non-compliance with the final > specification, for example, SFC NSH). At the same time, I don't think tha= t > mere fact of existing implementation should cancel discussion of technica= l > characteristics of the proposed approaches to hybrid OAM. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:09 AM, John Lemon > wrote: > >> I never saw a response to the request for a pointer to an OOAM >> implementation, so I assume none exist. >> >> I've seen several good arguments for why the existing IOAM >> implementation, for which several implementations exist, meets the needs >> for IOAM. >> >> I think it is time to put to bed the request to examine merging OOAM and >> IOAM. Let's move forward with IOAM and not hold it up. >> >> Respectfully, John >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < >> fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Greg, >>> >>> >>> >>> thanks =E2=80=93 and it seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with = regards to >>> efficiency (4 bytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of)= of >>> OOAM. >>> >>> >>> >>> On the IOAM implementation: There are several implementations of IOAM. >>> Some of which have recently been worked on and shown at an IETF hackath= on, >>> see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-10 >>> 0-hackathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and >>> VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofin= o. You >>> probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E . >>> >>> Below you seem to be specifically referring to the IOAM open source >>> implementation in FD.io/VPP: There are protocol encapsulations for >>> VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code use= s >>> the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverag= es MD-Type 2 for >>> NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in SFC whether = to use >>> MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t y= et settled, >>> hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain from updating the code until SFC WG has com= e to a >>> conclusion. >>> >>> >>> >>> Could you provide a pointer to an OOAM implementation? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Greg Mirsky >>> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54 >>> *To:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >>> *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG ; NVO3 ; Service >>> Function Chaining IETF list ; int-area@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - >>> follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Frank, >>> >>> thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line and >>> tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of othe= r >>> working groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the >>> center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we= 'll >>> have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) < >>> fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote: >>> >>> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts dealing >>> with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols >>> (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-gene= ve-00, >>> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we decided to t= ake >>> to the list was the question on whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header >>> could be leveraged. After carefully considering >>> draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion that the =E2= =80=9COOAM >>> header=E2=80=9D does not meet the needs of IOAM: >>> >>> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >>> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM h= eader=E2=80=9D is 8 >>> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above menti= oned >>> drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add = an >>> unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant. >>> >>> GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >>> >>> - provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; >>> - supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >>> - is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >>> >>> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also shown at >>> recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting additional= implementations to >>> be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely >>> specifications. Despite the question being asked, the recent thread on = OOAM >>> in the NVO3 list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM= header. In >>> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental questions about = the >>> OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM mechanism= s >>> within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. This >>> ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >>> >>> GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the implementations >>> you refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use meta-d= ata >>> TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of these implementati= ons >>> already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in >>> making them use OOAM Header. Would you agree? >>> >>> >>> >>> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM he= ader >>> would ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM use= s a >>> 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some pr= otocols that IOAM >>> data needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol = code >>> points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >>> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >>> >>> GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >>> >>> New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >>> >>> [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >>> >>> [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], and >>> >>> NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >>> >>> Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >>> >>> Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >>> >>> Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet >>> >>> traversing the underlay. >>> >>> I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits will >>> update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the statemnt are qui= te >>> clear in identifying the scope of networks that may benefit from using = not >>> only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo >>> Request/Reply >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward w= ith >>> specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80= =93 per the >>> above mentioned drafts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, Frank >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> ippm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> ippm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>> >>> >> > --001a114a4d0c2cb223056a3b7197 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Greg,

I never stated "that mere fact of existing implementation should cancel d= iscussion of technical characteristics of the proposed approaches to hybrid= OAM". I just noted implementation status as AN important thing= to consider. I also noted that "I've se= en several good arguments for why the existing IOAM implementation [...] me= ets the needs for IOAM." I'm not trying to end discussion o= f the technical characteristics. I'm stating that I believe that it has= been well argued that IOAM=C2=A0is mature enough= =C2=A0that it is clear that it is sufficiently different from OOAM a= s to not share the same header.

I hope that clarif= ies my intent.

Regards, John

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Thu, Apr 19, 20= 18 at 9:30 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote= :
Hi John,
I don'= ;t argue with the importance of interoperable implementations (though early= implementations accept=C2=A0the risk=C2=A0of non-compliance=C2=A0with the = final specification, for=C2=A0example, SFC NSH). At the same time, I don= 9;t think that mere fact of existing implementation should cancel discussio= n of technical characteristics of the proposed approaches to hybrid OAM.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 9:09 AM, J= ohn Lemon <john.lemon@broadcom.com> wrote:
I never saw a response to the reque= st for a pointer to an OOAM implementation, so I assume none exist.
I've seen several good arguments for why the existing IOAM = implementation, for which several implementations exist, meets the needs fo= r IOAM.

I think it is time to put to bed the reque= st to examine merging OOAM and IOAM. Let's move forward with IOAM and n= ot hold it up.

Respectfully, John


= On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@ci= sco.com> wrote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

thanks =E2=80=93 and i= t seems that we=E2=80=99re on the same page with regards to efficiency (4 b= ytes of non-required overhead) and maturity (or lack of) of OOAM.

=C2=A0

On the IOAM implementa= tion: There are several implementations of IOAM. Some of which have recentl= y been worked on and shown at an IETF hackathon, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-hac= kathon-sessa-in-situ-oam-ioam - where we=E2=80=99ve shown IPv6 and= VXLAN-GPE with IOAM =E2=80=93 on FD.io/VPP as well as on Barefoot Tofino. = You probably also remember the Netronome/Broadcom demo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dj9FbD4a3F4E .

Below you seem to be s= pecifically referring to the IOAM open source implementation in FD.io/VPP: = There are protocol encapsulations for VXLAN-GPE, NSH, and IPv6 implemented in FD.io/VPP. The current code us= es the =E2=80=9Cnext header approach=E2=80=9D for VXLAN-GPE and it leverage= s MD-Type 2 for NSH. As you=E2=80=99re well aware, there the discussion in = SFC whether to use MD-Type 2 or next header encapsulating IOAM data in NSH isn=E2=80=99t yet settled, hence we=E2=80=99ll refrain fr= om updating the code until SFC WG has come to a conclusion.

=C2=A0

Could you provide a po= inter to an OOAM implementation?

=C2=A0

Thanks,<= /span>

Frank

=C2=A0

From: = Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Sent: Donnerstag, 12. April 2018 18:54
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; NVO3 <nvo3@ietf.org>; Service Function Chaining IETF list <= sfc@ietf.org>; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols = - follow up from WG discussion in London

=C2=A0

Hi Frank,

thank you for sharing your points. Please find my no= tes in-line and tagged GIM>>. I believe that this is very much releva= nt to work of other working groups that directly work on the overlay encaps= ulations in the center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. Hope we'll have more opinio= ns to reach the conclusion that is acceptable to all.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (f= brockne) <fbrock= ne@cisco.com> wrote:

Back at the IPPM meeting in Lon= don, we discussed several drafts dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM dat= a in various protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). On= e discussion topic that we decided to take to the list was the question on = whether draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.=C2=A0 After care= fully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not m= eet the needs of IOAM:

* Efficiency: IOAM adds data to= live user traffic. As such, an encapsulation needs to be as efficient as p= ossible. The =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D is 8 bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the above mentioned drafts only requires 4 = bytes. Using the OOAM header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of = 4 bytes =E2=80=93 which is significant.

GIM>> The difference in four octets is because= OOAM Header:

  • provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields;<= /u>
  • supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header;
  • is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field).

* Maturity: IOAM has several im= plementations, which were also shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 an= d we=E2=80=99re expecting additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable implementations need timely specifications. Despite th= e question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 list hasn=E2= =80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. In addition, the th= read revealed that several fundamental questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether or how active OAM me= chanisms within protocols such as Geneve would apply to the OOAM header. Th= is ultimately means that we won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification.

GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported= by the implementations you refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposal= s were to use meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some o= f these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM shim, I don't see problem in making them us= e OOAM Header. Would you agree?

=C2=A0

* Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entir= ely clear to which protocols the OOAM header would ultimately apply to. The= way the OOAM header is defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the next protocol. Some protocols that IOAM d= ata needs to be encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code = points. See e.g. the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in draft-weis= -ippm-ioam-gre-00.

GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction = section states:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0New protocols that support overlay netw= orks like VxLAN-GPE

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.iet= f-nvo3-gue], Geneve

=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER [I-D.ietf-= bier-mpls-encapsulation], and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-pr= otocol payload, e.g.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Oper= ations, Administration, and

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct ty= pes.=C2=A0 That ensures that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing f= ate with Overlay data packet

=C2=A0 =C2=A0traversing the underlay.=C2=A0

I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along wit= h cleaning nits will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the= statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks that may ben= efit from using not only common OOAM Header but common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply.

=C2=A0

With the above in mind, I=E2=80= =99d suggest that the WG moves forward with specific definitions for encaps= ulating IOAM data into protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Regards, Frank


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm




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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: IETF IPPM WG , NVO3 , "Service Function Chaining IETF list" , "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AdPRe/DslDwu34XkSmq8g6ttV3Kt0QGp44SAAAmXEdD//8c/gP//d7zw Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:15:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <81b2598c54944ba887248cbce2f66575@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.117.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a0c168c0c53a4477a1ba3e8a491ff303XCHRCD008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 07:16:13 -0000 --_000_a0c168c0c53a4477a1ba3e8a491ff303XCHRCD008ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgR3JlZywNCg0KaXQgZGVwZW5kcyBvbiB0aGUgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uLCBp LmUuIHRoZSBwYXJlbnQgcHJvdG9jb2wgdXNlZC4gSU9BTSBkYXRhIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gZGVw ZW5kcyBvbiB3aGF0IHRoZSBwYXJlbnQgcHJvdG9jb2wgb2ZmZXJzIGFzIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24g bWVjaGFuaXNtLiBBcyBzdWNoLCB5b3XigJlkIGRlcGVuZCBvbiB0aGUgcHJvY2VkdXJlcyB1c2Vk IGJ5IHRoZSBwYXJlbnQgcHJvdG9jb2wuDQpMZXTigJlzIGNvbnNpZGVyIHR3byBleGFtcGxlcyBH ZW5ldmUgYW5kIE5TSDogRm9yIEdlbmV2ZSAoZHJhZnQtYnJvY2tuZXJzLWlwcG0taW9hbS1nZW5l dmUtMDApIHdlIHVzZSB0aGUg4oCcb3B0aW9uIGNsYXNz4oCdIG1lY2hhbmlzbSB0byBjYXJyeSBJ T0FNIGRhdGEsIGkuZS4gR2VuZXZl4oCZcyBtZWNoYW5pc20gdG8gY2FycnkgbWV0YSBkYXRhLiBH ZXR0aW5nIHRvIHRoZSBwYXlsb2FkIGluIGEgc2V0dXAgd2l0aCBJT0FNIGRhdGEgd2l0aGluIHRo 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NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG , Mickey Spiegel , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Tianran Zhou Thread-Topic: [sfc] [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT1en5jaGR0tKoZUqNJvcZ9CCngaQE2SWAgABtMICABQVeAA== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 19:03:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.118.116.132] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DD4CBF95C04B45ECBC841D85F113230Fciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [sfc] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1524266069; bh=9RCdcxBmhzSM3xN01HVN7lZ25sTlJgYvj369pDG/1Bs=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=VgZBBYjy+pX4lA+JXC9mem5CNAb/aqkUcCG7nRCXoBitTf07wPfUTsdldjYxs8cFuOXSDldDhU82j7/JUeT+wMVGH1VGHL2aHFUIlNWelWlhLRdxqls98si0h7hShKfNe2EUeKFHo/rsrJ62ex/Dmlz4zNXtOay8oi8wBefdfEF0Z1AhvIxtXndW7mqWs6I3bSfgVDhZuloHEizrNHFjc0FQYzLgx2pWbFf8iU4cYAx48VSpTXf1eQb17xhlLE6kdkxlenHQQDu5tput3/QoKwgaElywDgdOHbF05TQui5haLwINLYYirrpdQ5tjQup5op3OC5odmHjzTaOObtbIVw== X-YMail-OSG: Y3fMvj0VM1nJMR3tP15gURNqnaar7q34fDBeOh3U9KltjzOZJMpdYyY3rWbCU14 z_eiHGWP5.hBRDklOdlk85_KHzxH5QbCKoIraRN07hdML8_b2yjyD7W8zEEZt14W2DZoxmaBYsHQ .o_MkzV8hHFv406v6q8QiEgFjUiXc7rkOSJ9br_uCnwLwcTUuDqTrhsHpfnUUGl7fBQoDOwfifG5 hFXaQkhqjNYv.8tdWc3uk46GQcBWOUskVFf0BoPeTV8teqfzlmjPxr4r0eVmgXUoog1oxYeILylm RNgvvXUtLUyO9vnRsKH3pCx_l5JYJKGdOXhWWf8eKC9kXksMp6634SY2cPAnUDC.aHWrqfxI.t4f my9tcCxkRoIT0hRSMY4r7kW0B1P6PdsPdfuMstFSvl2PNA0TzdUm64t3uAKnPx9gepdIjxlfl5K0 gfFXmruVkpYK7ZrDpgS8dqIlIwEvNRIMJZ7.yTwvTKQWCXhRjfvhKuKp2sL4hLopJwakpccNsT2b FKR3Npwk9ZVFLFFUI.6HlLh8dsPCz5vdyKmsG5y3KKMUkLAQJ1wLV_ylYWN_g8tV96U2wWB_VmR3 Yg0BlBj7wXsPMU4cg5j_d3rAtbv0DCjA- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 23:14:29 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 23:14:28 +0000 (UTC) From: Nalini J Elkins Reply-To: Nalini J Elkins To: Pete Resnick , "gen-art@ietf.org" Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org" Message-ID: <1920721407.2077260.1524266068290@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <152389450589.19717.5878253699822119266@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2077259_883391494.1524266068286" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.11782 YahooMailNeo Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/66.0.3359.117 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 23:14:34 -0000 ------=_Part_2077259_883391494.1524266068286 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pete., Thanks for your comments. > Note to shepherd: In the shepherding writeup, question 1 is not answered = correctly. This document is going for *Proposed* Standard, not *Internet* S= tandard.=C2=A0 Fixed. > Further, there is no explanation for why this should be a standards track= document (though I believe the answer is pretty straightforward). You shou= ld go correct that.=C2=A0 It is my understanding that all YANG models are standards track documents.= =C2=A0 Shall I add that as text? > While you're at it, you can update answer 15, as that nit was corrected. Done.=C2=A0Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 From: Pete Resnick To: gen-art@ietf.org=20 Cc: ippm@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 9:01 AM Subject: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 =20 Reviewer: Pete Resnick Review result: Ready with Issues I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair.=C2=A0 Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07 Reviewer: Pete Resnick Review Date: 2018-04-16 IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27 IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat Summary: This document appears ready to go forward. The only "issue" I have here mig= ht end up being an editorial issue, but I list it as a Minor issue because it might be substantive. Major issues: None. Minor issues: In the paragraph after Figure 3, it says, "and subsequent values are monotonically increasing". I'm not sure I understand what that means. If 0 = is the highest priority, then 1 is a *lower* priority than 0, not an increasin= g priority. If you are trying to say that the numeric value of the priority f= ield is increasing by 1 for each subsequent value, then "monotonically increasin= g" is wrong; the sequence "0 2 5 36" is monotonically increasing. You'd say instead, "and subsequent values increase by one". If all you mean is that values start at 0 and go up from there, I think you should just delete the entire phrase; it doesn't add anything and strikes me as confusing. Nits/editorial comments: Why are RFC 4086, RFC 8018, and ietf-ippm-metric-registry Informative References instead of Normative? The uses appear to be normative. I'm not clear why the examples were split between Section 6 and Appendix A; seems like you could just use the long one in section 6 and explain only th= e important bits. I also note that neither of them make any claims about normativity: That is, most examples in documents I see always say something like, "If there is a conflict between anything here and the syntax in the model, the model wins." Is that not the case in these sorts of model docume= nts? Pet peeve: Except in Acknowledgements, I really don't like the use of "we" = in IETF documents (even though it's becoming more and more common). It's not c= lear to whom it refers (the WG? the authors? the IETF?). In most places, it can = be replaced with "This document", or using passive voice (e.g., s/We define X = as/X is defined as). There are only 4 occurrences: Abstract, 1.1, 3, and 3.1. Ea= sy enough to change. Note to shepherd: In the shepherding writeup, question 1 is not answered correctly. This document is going for *Proposed* Standard, not *Internet* Standard. Further, there is no explanation for why this should be a standar= ds track document (though I believe the answer is pretty straightforward). You should go correct that. While you're at it, you can update answer 15, as th= at nit was corrected. =20 ------=_Part_2077259_883391494.1524266068286 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pete= .,

Thanks for you= r comments.

> = Note to shepherd: In the shepherding writeup, question 1 is not answered co= rrectly. This document is going for *Proposed* Standard, not *Internet* Sta= ndard. 

Fixe= d.

> Further, = there is no explanation for why this should be a standards track document (= though I believe the answer is pretty straightforward). You should go corre= ct that. 

It= is my understanding that all YANG models are standards track documents.&nb= sp; Shall I add that as text?


> While you're at it, you can update answer 15, as that nit was c= orrected.
<= br>
Done.
 
Tha= nks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
ww= w.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360

From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qti.qu= alcomm.com>
To: gen= -art@ietf.org
Cc: ippm= @ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 9:= 01 AM
Subject: Genart = last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07

Reviewer: Pete Resnick
Review result: Ready with Issues

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this = draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) rev= iews all IETF documents being processed
by the IE= SG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.
<= br>
For more information, please see the FAQ at


Document: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-07
Reviewer: Pete Resnick
Review Date: 2018-04-16<= br>
IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-27
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary:

This document appears ready to go forward. The only "is= sue" I have here might
end up being an editorial = issue, but I list it as a Minor issue because it
= might be substantive.

= Major issues:

None.

Minor issues:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
In the paragraph after Figure 3,= it says, "and subsequent values are
monotonicall= y increasing". I'm not sure I understand what that means. If 0 is
=
the highest priority, then 1 is a *lower* priority than 0,= not an increasing
priority. If you are trying to= say that the numeric value of the priority field
is increasing by 1 for each subsequent value, then "monotonically increasi= ng"
is wrong; the sequence "0 2 5 36" is monotoni= cally increasing. You'd say
instead, "and subsequ= ent values increase by one". If all you mean is that
values start at 0 and go up from there, I think you should just delete = the
entire phrase; it doesn't add anything and st= rikes me as confusing.

Nits/editorial comments:

Why are RFC 4086, RFC 8018, and ietf-ippm-metric-registry Informative
References instead of Normative? The uses appear t= o be normative.

I'm no= t clear why the examples were split between Section 6 and Appendix A;
seems like you could just use the long one in section = 6 and explain only the
important bits. I also not= e that neither of them make any claims about
norm= ativity: That is, most examples in documents I see always say something
=
like, "If there is a conflict between anything here = and the syntax in the
model, the model wins." Is = that not the case in these sorts of model documents?

Pet peeve: Except in Acknowledgements, I rea= lly don't like the use of "we" in
IETF documents = (even though it's becoming more and more common). It's not clear
<= div dir=3D"ltr">to whom it refers (the WG? the authors? the IETF?). In most= places, it can be
replaced with "This document",= or using passive voice (e.g., s/We define X as/X
is defined as). There are only 4 occurrences: Abstract, 1.1, 3, and 3.1. E= asy
enough to change.
<= br>
Note to shepherd: In the shepherding writeup, que= stion 1 is not answered
correctly. This document = is going for *Proposed* Standard, not *Internet*
= Standard. Further, there is no explanation for why this should be a standar= ds
track document (though I believe the answer is= pretty straightforward). You
should go correct t= hat. While you're at it, you can update answer 15, as that
nit was corrected.




------=_Part_2077259_883391494.1524266068286-- From nobody Sat Apr 21 06:31:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC94126DD9 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 06:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.685 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.685 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3cuPEO7tqHuQ for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 06:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAC5A1243F6 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 06:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.100]) by resqmta-ch2-12v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id 9s5KfEiVKqQAh9scCfKx5Z; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 13:31:44 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([65.96.206.41]) by resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id 9scAfHEYSZIKa9scBf6xDm; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 13:31:44 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w3LDVgaI022066; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 09:31:42 -0400 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id w3LDVgAj022063; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 09:31:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: NVO3 , IPPM Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 09:31:41 -0400 Message-ID: <87r2n8d6te.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfI0VA0AdChVSshk9MCFA5Pb6B9VBo5t3BsioIblN3SLfSGHAUoGDxHSOEN0UhjwhtvQyrF1eDgSQi+YCfbY/i9SZQAmX2Pwyb1V5c4TC2gwGCP5MZZBq 7As8KL4Zmg/4ivzw4z78hkyyhyckP1iDg6JBsb8E8pd0SRUVTsWU9sVUD1APffuIBW6uBqzSn1joRg== Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Using Geneve for OAM X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 13:31:48 -0000 I'm new to this work, and as an exercise, I've been looking into using Geneve to carry OAM information. Doing so suggests that certain adjustments to Geneve would make it better for OAM usage. I'd be glad to hear feedback about any of these ideas. The design principles I am following are: - Here, "OAM" is restricted to monitoring ordinary data packets; such OAM tasks as telnetting into a router are handled by ordinary packet streams addressed in the proper way. - We are interested in both "active" OAM (where the monitoring packet does not carry non-OAM data) as well as "hybrid" or "in-situ" OAM (where the monitoring packet carries both OAM information as well as non-OAM data). - Using Geneve as a "universal" encapsulation protocol, where it can be inserted into the sequence of headers of a packet at any point, to carry both OAM and non-OAM annotations for the remaining packet contents. (I am particularly fond of this concept.) - Support "fast path" processing for Geneve headers that conform to a pre-established profile that specifies the sequence of option types and lengths. I am using the "IOAM" proposal (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02) for the semantics and syntax of the OAM data, basically because it seems to be fairly complete, and I have little knowledge about what the OAM data should be. The IOAM proposal reduces the OAM information to three alternative data blocks (tracing, proof of transit, and edge-to-edge), each of which is configurable in numerous ways. draft-brockners-nvo3-ioam-geneve-00 proposes that each of these data blocks can be included in a Geneve header under a particular class/type code. (The major lack in the IOAM proposal is carriage of echo request/reply messages. draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-demand-cc-cv seems to be a promising approach to this OAM message type.) "Universality" for Geneve is accomplished in part by extending the allowed underlying protocols (preceding header types). This involves establishing an Ethertype for Geneve (so that Geneve can be encapsulated directly in Ethernet) and establishing an IP protocol/header value (so that Geneve can be encapsulated in IPv4/IPv6). Similarly, Geneve needs to be extended so that its "protocol type" field can carry an IP protocol/header value (so that Geneve can encapsulate IETF layer 4 protocols) and a "no encapsulated data" value. IP protocol/header values can be encoded by setting the high octet of the protocol type field to 0x00 and the low octet to the protocol/header value. (Ethertypes have a high octet of 0x06 or higher, so this does not conflict with the present specification of Geneve.) Packets for "active" OAM, which contain no overlay data, indicate "no encapsulated data" with the value 0x00 0x3B, since protocol/header value 59 means "no next header". The second word of the fixed part of a Geneve header carries the virtual network identifier, which may not be needed. It seems to me to be a useful feature to define one of the Geneve header flag bits to mean "short header"; if it is set, the second word of the fixed part is absent. With this extension, a minimal Geneve header carrying IOAM looks like this: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |O|C|S| Rsvd. | Protocol Type | Geneve fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class = IOAM_Trace |C| IOAM-Trace |R|R|R| Length | Geneve option +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | IOAM-Trace-Type |NodeLen| Flags | Octets-left | IOAM fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | IOAM data ~ node data list [0] ~ space | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- This format is well-versionized, with the Geneve version in the first two bits of the Geneve fixed part and the IOAM version implied by the option class/type value. This requires only 2 words (8 octets) in addition to the IOAM fixed and data space. If a Geneve header was needed at this point in the header stack for other purposes, the overhead of adding OAM is only 1 word. As is discussed in draft-brockners-nvo3-ioam-geneve-00 section 4, Geneve headers and options are rather short for IOAM tracing: the maximum data part of an option is (2^5-1)*4 = 124 octets, and the maximum option part of a header is (2^6-1)*4 = 252 octets. It's worth considering extending the length fields in Geneve to support longer options. Consider this format: The flag bits in the header fixed part is reduced to 1 bit (short header), extending the length field to 13 bits. The reserved bits in the option fixed part are added to the length field, extending it to 8 bits. 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |S| Protocol Type | Geneve fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class = IOAM_Trace |C| IOAM-Trace | Length | Geneve option +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | IOAM-Trace-Type |NodeLen| Flags | Octets-left | IOAM fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | IOAM data ~ node data list [0] ~ space | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- The maximum data part of an option is now (2^8-1)*4 = 1,020 octets and the maximum option part of a header is now (2^13-1)*4 = 32,764 octets. In the case mentioned in draft-brockners-nvo3-ioam-geneve-00, where each visited node adds 20 octets of tracing information, the IOAM data space could accommodate floor((1020 - 4) / 20) = 50 hops of information. This revised format omits the O and C bits from the header fixed part. As far as I can tell -- and I may be wrong about this -- this causes no inconvenience, as the Geneve header is only examined by nodes which are endpoints for all of the encapsulating protocols, that is, for the addresses carried in the preceding headers in the packet. And in that case, the node is required to examine all of the options in the Geneve header, in case it is required to take some action based on them. In that case, the C bit in the fixed part carries no information that the node cannot determine by examining all of the options, which it will do anyway. Similarly, the O bit for identifying OAM information can carry no information that is not carried elsewhere in the Geneve header. One aspect of Geneve processing that I am trying to support is "fast path" processing. The concept is that the node is configured for a certain "profile" of Geneve header -- a particular sequence of Geneve option types and lengths -- and that the node should be able to quickly identify packets that conform to the profile and divert them to a preconfigured processing path, leaving non-conforming packets to be processed by a more general and slower mechanism. As long as the sequence of options and their lengths are fully specified by the profile, the profile conformance test is "TCAM compatible", that is, can be done by examining whether certain bits at certain offsets from the start of the Geneve header have certain values. If more brevity is required, we can eliminate the IOAM fixed part by incorporating the 16 bit IOAM-Trace-Type into the Geneve option class/type -- allocate a block of 2^16 of the 2^23 class/type identifiers to specify IOAM-Trace-Types: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |S| Protocol Type | Geneve fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Class | Trace-Type |C| Trace-Type | Length | Geneve option +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | IOAM data ~ node data list [0] ~ space | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- This uses 2^-7 of the option/class number space to support IOAM-Trace, but it might be worth it to reduce the overhead for IOAM trace to 1 word (4 octets), or 0 words if a Geneve header has to be inserted for other purposes already. This approach does require an alternative way to describe how many entries in the IOAM data are filled in, since the "Octets-left" field of the IOAM fixed part is lost. One way to represent this is to not fill the entries in sequentially as the packet passes through nodes, but rather have each node insert its information into the beginning of the data space, and shift the entries previously present in the data space later: +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ | empty | | entry 1 | | entry 2 | +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ | empty | | empty | | entry 1 | +----------+ -----> +----------+ -----> +----------+ | empty | | empty | | empty | +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ | empty | | empty | | empty | +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ | empty | | empty | | empty | +----------+ +----------+ +----------+ In order for the final node to determine how many entries had been filled in, it helps to have a defined empty value. draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 suggests that the value 0xFFFFFFFF represents an empty word, although there are a few situations where that value could be inserted as a non-null value (e.g., in timestamps), and some provision would be needed to handle that. Overflowing of the data area could be detected by making the data area not a multiple of the length of an entry, but one word longer than a multiplea. If the final word has a non-null value, then the final node can tell that some information was lost. Dale From nobody Sat Apr 21 08:05:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FDD12762F for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:05:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hhKaJ2xbVpmM for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x230.google.com (mail-qk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04EAE1274D2 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x230.google.com with SMTP id c70so2837937qkg.0 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:05:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HOql8Y2BomhDeoX1E6wH1CAjmjXQP3AMUlhNz3yIcQM=; b=pBEC2V6tHrxJ/2ez1T6/3NMyWI5hJIJ05xUI2XYS0XDLdUy+2GIlYIthvHzi1mxC+9 0KKXyBQ/XMAdNbsVsDdt9xwPMlHDyjKEUKJjz0PURU5N4xwNsWITHZ+3dAwWUtjIFjvg SUs2k46zZ5gTs/OI+KtziiE1YiO/6cPJ2k//DG5G0bHxxEG/1AKJd1heQiiUrOQI0yjJ YvT6+Fwu9GlR8MtKwz8C66SUHl82QZsv6g5oZz4ROy+GHQOblvB6ESa3Le6XeTDz75tX 3vnM0qzJpMvJm82v0k7NRNbp1F1YhvNF3q1yZcFszbakFy4gJ6iTb6/QhTddWazNJg1o kAuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HOql8Y2BomhDeoX1E6wH1CAjmjXQP3AMUlhNz3yIcQM=; b=OVDXsktfdOcfLRDrcGI/1/nSoLpz1qLHlo/GSoTGC+eF3ust3qm6M1gabYAa4WWFnj JMvPdhShf45JEiWcwz+bdO1zpUEdBzpqaTKK0igY5oj6mPZywA+CuYBD+6u2LSIWqusz tov12GpCpU8ICPu+DTwzeEVaVQTjmlHK4mtqAD0Do7kobwfvsdnn9cx89J4eM1qVqzlf 9GNzVbqiubZqsuYt3omLgDJsXbeuJ2msOaRQ4rOprxSg6hkupxGBkrSI2bQdMOIiBTGU rRWgCPS7GHmiqRr0LOAvtYw10OysWaz0Qf4EOuDr+Eo/WfsFNG6d5LKt9ihPMfNnPGoe cSCA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDURlci5wQ01auNr7VicslZJqbM/RRJyON1E4LH1yNHxblLuTLB qKpjH3uPrtZ2Uf++GUegT9GLyt+nVbBFlI0YeSETnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48VIqJ7prG8Ab6o4LyXbsfs6HJxnBog67zRNL1yckWQor46XrsUNo+RgPgXr8ILvRJSh4kgEX9TazaGGT4Rh8M= X-Received: by 10.233.224.5 with SMTP id m5mr15799420qkk.333.1524323105753; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:05:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.48.35 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:05:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:05:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG , Mickey Spiegel , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Tianran Zhou Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [sfc] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:05:11 -0000 On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > Tom, > > On Apr 17, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > wrote: > > > Hi Tianran, > > Tom's note already includes the hint: You'll add IOAM data to the > protocol/layer that you're interested in monitoring. Again using Geneve o= ver > IPv6 as an example: > * If you're interested in the overlay, i.e. Geneve (e.g. timestamping the > packet when it enters and exists the tunnel) - you'd add IOAM data to Gen= eve > * If you're interested in the underlay, i.e. IPv6 (e.g. you'd like to > understand which path packets take in the v6 network) - you'd add IOAM da= ta > to IPv6 > * If you're interested in both, then you'd add IOAM data to Geneve and IP= v6 > > Frank, > > In that case why not just use a hop-by-hop option for measuring the > underlay and a destination option for measuring the overlay? The > advantage is that this works _any_ IP encapsulation method or any IP > protocol for that matter. > > > Because you want to instrument the layer that you want to measure. > Because there=E2=80=99s cases with more unnatural layering where there=E2= =80=99s a desire to > correlate and compare measurements across layers (in a way in which, for > example, the Service layer is tested in a service chaining scenario, not = the > IPv6 hop-by-hop. > Because different topologies expose different Hops and IPv6 HBH goes by t= he > IPv6 node topology. > Because not everything is IPv6, and because you have cases of IPv6 over > something as well. > Those are quick ones that come to mind. > Carlos, Please see my other email that details some use cases that shows destination options are functionally equivalent to ippm in encapsulation, and also my comments that the IPv6 has superior capabilities to cover in-situ ippm requirements (in particular that IP options are the _only_ protocol conformant means for intermediate nodes to change IP payloads needed for IOAM tracing). I don't have a general issue with supporting ippm in encapsulation, but I do think this should be viewed as legacy support. Note there is no concept of segment routing in IPv4, they are blazing forward only on IPv6 so it is reasonable to take this view. Personally, I don't think this is a disadvantage to SR. IPv6 does have more capabilities than IPv4 and we're now seeing protocols that will take advantage of those. Features like this are good motivation for moving to IPv6, which in the long run is good for the Internet! Tom > Frank, > I don't believe adding ippm to every > encapsulation protocol is straightforward: e.g. > draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve describe but notes the limited size > of header, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre states that a new EtherType would > be needed just for this purpose. This also entails additional > encapsulation-specific HW support also, whereas support destination > and hbh options could be more generic. > > > Engineering is about trade-offs. If you want to measure Geneve, there are > limitations. But instead of trying to prove why it does not work, I=E2=80= =99ll point > to working demos of where it does =E2=80=94 many of which on different HW= /SW and > encaps, shown at various IETF events. > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro > > Tom > > Draft draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 already mentions layering (see section > 3): > "Layering: If several encapsulation protocols (e.g., in case of tunneling= ) > are stacked on top of each other, IOAM data-records could be present at > every layer. The behavior follows the ships-in-the-night model." > > Given the discussion here, we'll add some additional text in the next > revision to make things crisper (e.g. adding an example might help). > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tianran Zhou > Sent: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 03:18 > To: Tom Herbert > Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners > (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel > ; NVO3 ; Service Function > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > I think it's better that Frank or Shwetha can explain the multi-layer use > case in detail. > > Tianran > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:40 PM > To: Tianran Zhou > Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners > (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel > ; NVO3 ; int-area > ; Service Function Chaining IETF list > ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:31 AM, Tianran Zhou > wrote: > > Hi Shwetha, > > You are talking about the outer encapsution. It is straight forward > for the underlay to record by the header. But what about the > overlay, i.e., inner encapsulation(e.g. geneve)? Without special > configuration, intermediate node will not read the inner header, > hence not be able to process IOAM.e > > > Hi Tianran, > > I believe that is also not protocol conformant. Intermediate nodes > should not be processing transport layer data as this can lead to > misinterpretation and possibly silent data corruption. > > For instance, Geneve is a UDP encapsulation protocol with assigned port > 6081. > In order for an intermediate device to process the Geneve > encapsulation header it would need to look for packets with > destination port of 6081 since that is the only possible > discriminator. However, transport port numbers do not have global > meaning and hosts may use port numbers for other purposes (RFC7605 > describes this). So a packet to port 6081 might be something other > than Geneve and may be misinterpreted. If a misinterpreted packet is chan= ged > (like ippm data is written) then that would be systematic silent data > corruption. > > As far as I know, hop-by-hop options is the only protocol confirming > mechanism that allows an intermediate note to change data of packet in > flight. > Encpasulation is the only conforming mechanism that allows an > intermediate node to add data (like extension headers) to a packet in > flight. > > Tom > > Maybe we are not synced by this overlay/underlay use case. :-) > > Tianran > > > > ________________________________ > Sent from WeLink > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Tianran Zhou= ;Frank Brockners > (fbrockne);Mickey > Spiegel;Tom > Herbert > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A NVO3;int-area;Service Function > Chaining IETF list;IETF IPPM WG > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM d= ata in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-04-16 18:17:01 > > Hi Tianran, > > If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. > > > Data draft is defining the data to be carried in IOAM in an > encapsulation agnostic way, it does not specify how the > encapsulation protocol is configured. > > > > Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. > > > While it is, it does not have to be a node by node configuration. It > can be part of the encapsulation definition. > > For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data to > be carried as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with > highest order 2 bits set to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement IOAM > will process the option and others will skip over. > > > > > > Thanks, > > Shwetha > > > > From: ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou > > Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM > To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey > Spiegel , Tom Herbert > > Cc: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , > Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG > > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. > > Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. In the > draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the =E2=80=9Cprotocol-type=E2=80=9D to= indicate > the layering. > > +--rw ioam > > +--rw ioam-profiles > > +--rw enabled? boolean > > +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name] > > +--rw profile-name string > > +--rw filter > > | +--rw filter-type? ioam-filter-type > > | +--rw acl-name? -> /acl:acls/acl/name > > +--rw protocol-type? ioam-protocol-type > > +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-trace}? > > | ... > > +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}? > > | ... > > +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}? > > | ... > > +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}? > > ... > > > > > > Tianran > > From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM > To: Tianran Zhou ; Mickey Spiegel > ; Tom Herbert > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Tianran, > > > > IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 sections 3 and 4), which allows an > operator to control by means of configuration where and for which > traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed from the customer > traffic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 =E2=80=93 with IOAM data = in > both the Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would expect that the > operator configures the endpoints of the Geneve tunnel to operate on > the IOAM data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers that the Geneve tunnel > > traverses to operate on the IOAM data in IPv6. > > > > > Frank > > > > From: Tianran Zhou > Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel > ; Tom Herbert > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > How does a forwarder know when and where to insert the data? > > In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to scan > all the protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation? > > > > Tianran > > > > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank > Brockners > (fbrockne) > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM > To: Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert > > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > > > Tom, > > > > a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you seem to > have in mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =E2=80=9Cl= ayering=E2=80=9D > (see section 3.), i.e. if you=E2=80=99re running for example Geneve over > IPv6, then IOAM data could be encapsulated in both protocols, Geneve > and > IPv6 =E2=80=93 giving you visibility into the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80=9D = (IPv6) and the =E2=80=9Coverlay=E2=80=9D > > (Geneve). > > > > > Frank > > > > From: ippm On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel > Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22 > To: Tom Herbert > Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function > Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London > > > > Tom, > > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert wrote= : > > Mickey, > > Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more > fundamental concern. > > In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the > text in the introduction: > > "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while > the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" > refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data > packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically > dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are > transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] > encapsulation." > > I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation > traverse the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as > being Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the > destination UDP port number would be used to identify packets as > being Geneve. So an intermediate device might be looking for UDP > packets destined to port > 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is > correct, then this is a problem. > > UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device > may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not > actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: > > "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. > It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers > -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers > are meaningful only at the endpoints." > > If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then > misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A > protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that > this would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network > tries to interpret. > > > > The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet traverses > > to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option, > > but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the > > IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary > > depending on the transport. > > > > In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, > > there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use > > Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 > > processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case > > many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet > > would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. > > > > Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or > > VXLAN rather than NSH. > > > > > I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this > application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and > they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or > encapsulation. > > > > IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See > > draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been > > broken out into a separate draft. > > > > Mickey > > > > > Thanks, > Tom > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel > wrote: > > Tom, > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky > > wrote: > > Hi Frank, > thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line > and tagged > GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of > GIM>>other > working > groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the > center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. > Hope we'll have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is > acceptable to all. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > wrote: > > > Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts > dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various > protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, > draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we > decided to take to the list was the question on whether > draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.. After > carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to > the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the n= eeds > of > IOAM: > > * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an > encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM hea= der=E2=80=9D > is 8 > bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the > above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM > header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 > which is significant. > > Greg, > > I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced > and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that > four bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to > type/length, for instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for > option class, type, and length. Unless the the OAM data is zero > length, I don't see how this adds up to only four bytes of overhead. > > > > The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four > bytes of IOAM info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond > that, there are IOAM option specific fields. For example if doing > one of the IOAM trace options, there are four bytes of trace option > header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen, Flags, and > RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list > containing the per hop IOAM information. > > In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with > any of the IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains > another variant of the information in the first four bytes of IOAM > info, spread out over eight bytes. > > > Tom > > > GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: > > provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; > > > > The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a > timestamp block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which > the timestamp block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is > redundant for > > IOAM. > > > > supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; > > > > For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. > > > is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). > > > > IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version > field would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more > bytes of overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. > > > > * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also > shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting > additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable > implementations need timely specifications. Despite the > question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 > list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. > In > addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental > questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether > or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve > would apply to the OOAM header. This ultimately means that we > won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. > > > GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the > GIM>> implementations > you > refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use > meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of > these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM > shim, I don't see problem in making them use OOAM Header. Would > you agree? > > > * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM > header would ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is > defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the nex= t > protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be > encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code points. See e.= g. > the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in > draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. > > > GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: > New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve > [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER > [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], > > and > > NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. > Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and > Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that > Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet > traversing the underlay. > I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits > will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the > statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks > that may benefit from using not only common OOAM Header but > common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. > > With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward > with specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into > protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts. > > > > Regards, Frank > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > From nobody Sat Apr 21 08:38:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DFB12EA94; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:38:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id njmZDr655MiJ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31EBB12E893; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [190.141.5.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3B37809ED; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:37:52 +0200 (CEST) To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , "C. M. Heard" Cc: 6man , IETF , IPPM , Suresh Krishnan References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EB2B4@njmtexg5.research.att.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <76656120-1140-c66c-cc6a-9ac153f1cf00@si6networks.com> Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 18:35:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EB2B4@njmtexg5.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:38:18 -0000 On 04/20/2018 12:42 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote: [....] > */[acm] /* > > *That’s heavy baggage 6man will have to carry, IMO.* > > *“are not” doesn’t translate to a requirement in any SDO I know.* > >   > > RFC8250 does not involve Extension header insertion/deletion > > along the path, but other work-in-progress (in-situ OAM) would. Well, it should not. RFC8200 seems to be crystal clear in this respect, and we burned a sensible number of electrons to get there. >    o  Extension Header insertion or deletion: Although such behavior is > >       not endorsed by current standards, it is possible that Extension > >       Headers could be added to, or removed from the header chain.  The > >       resulting packet may be standard-formed, with a corresponding > >       Type-P. Strongly disagree, for the reasons stated above. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Apr 21 08:38:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7B612EB81; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sMhKt00Pf5HF; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E59012EB7A; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 08:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.102] (unknown [190.141.5.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6F87E809ED; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 17:38:16 +0200 (CEST) To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , Tom Herbert Cc: "C. M. Heard" , 6man , IETF , IPPM References: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8E895E@njmtexg5.research.att.com> <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EB2C1@njmtexg5.research.att.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 11:46:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF4A8EB2C1@njmtexg5.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (IPv6, IPv4 and Coexistence Updates for IPPM's Active Metric Framework) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 15:38:48 -0000 Al, On 04/20/2018 12:42 AM, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) wrote: [...] > Since PDM / RFC8250 exclusively defines measurement based on DOH, > it is a bit out of place with " ...modification, addition or deletion of > IPv6 extension headers..." (inspection was a possibility, but not > discussed in RFC8250) > > We are proposing to delete PDM/8250 from the sentence: > > The topic of IPv6 Extension Headers brings current controversies into > focus as noted by [RFC6564] and [RFC7045]. However, measurement use > cases in the context of the IPPM framework like in-situ OAM [ref] in > enterprise environments can benefit from > inspection, modification, addition or deletion of IPv6 extension > headers in hosts along the measurement path. Given the discussion in ITF LC/6man regarding EH insertion an modification, I think the aforementioned text shouldn't be there, or, at the very least, it should be made crystal-clear that EH insertion or modification violates current specs (RFC8200). Unfortunately, I haven't gone through this whole I-D, yet. BUt, when it comes to using EHs for anything, folks should be made aware about the issues related to RFC7872. Thanks! Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Apr 22 02:21:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214E51243F3; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 02:21:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PQoVqzFG03QR; Sun, 22 Apr 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xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 05:21:25 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Tom Herbert CC: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG , Mickey Spiegel , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Tianran Zhou Thread-Topic: [sfc] [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT1en5jaGR0tKoZUqNJvcZ9CCngaQE2SWAgABtMICABQVeAIABT8mAgADvQ2k= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:21:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [sfc] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:21:32 -0000 SGkgVG9tLA0KDQpJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdXNpbmcgSU9BTSBpbiBJUHY2IGJvdGggZTJlIGFuZCBo YmggaXMgYSBwb3dlcmZ1bCBhbmQgdXNlZnVsIGNvbWJvIQ0KDQpNeSBwb2ludCwgc29ycnkgaWYg SSB3YXMgbm90IGNsZWFyLCBpcyB0aGF0IGFuIOKAnFNGQyBIb3DigJ0gZG9lcyBub3QgY29ycmVz cG9uZCB0byBhIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGhvcCwgYW5kIHRoYXQgSU9BTSBjYW4g YmUgaW4tc2l0deKAmWVkIHRvIHRoZSBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIHRoYXQgcmVhbGl6ZXMgdGhlIChz ZXJ2aWNlLCBvdmVybGF5LCBvdGhlcndpc2UgaGlnaGVyKSB0b3BvbG9neSAod2hpY2ggY2FuIGJl IElQdjYgbmF0aXZlbHkgb3Igc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2UgYXMgd2VsbCkNCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KDQpU aHVtYiB0eXBlZCBieSBDYXJsb3MgUGlnbmF0YXJvLg0KRXhjdXplIHR5cG9mcmFwaGljYWsgZXJy 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Cj4+IEludC1hcmVhIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gSW50LWFyZWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaW50LWFyZWENCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gaXBwbSBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaXBwbQ0KPj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IA0KPj4gX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+IHNmYyBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCj4+IA0KPj4gDQo= From nobody Sun Apr 22 08:15:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B18124319 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:15:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.685 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.685 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, TO_NO_BRKTS_PCNT=1] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y8YULWAh8-Q5 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D222120454 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.106]) by resqmta-ch2-11v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id AGhEfu5BVxNRYAGi2fj2KF; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 15:15:22 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([65.96.206.41]) by resomta-ch2-10v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id AGi1fUGFPs2iIAGi2fYiuX; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 15:15:22 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w3MFFJfj021454; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 11:15:19 -0400 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id w3MFFJl9021451; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 11:15:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: nvo3@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 11:15:18 -0400 Message-ID: <87efj7clx5.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJECFjc6areQxlieujBisL4QUsu3nsEp/YA/lVlWGmUwktWZmpEFt294HoL2nb5SZVc1R97h8suG35jfr1IinXpbiT9jcTeps3zCyWiFDjPy3RWe71f1 S54kTwqrSIJwBLvZ478Dv+MRyCb2qr/cZemew6W3VtOLejoFwGRSWAytCKnBocZRNFAw83z1G/1ZrQ== Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] An entropy option for Geneve X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 15:15:25 -0000 Discussions of encapsulation point out the need for "entropy", providing a field that is statistically random overall, but constant for any one "flow", to be used to decide ECMP choices. The entropy field needs to be easy for routers to find, but the encapsulation headers often precede the entropy fields in the encapsulated traffic. The common current method is to precede the encapsulation header with a UDP header whose source port carries a 14-bit entropy field (RFC 7510 section 3) and whose destination port identifies the encapsulation protocool. This technique is an elegant reuse of an existing protocol but also has awkwardly high overhead (8 octets for just 14 bits.) Geneve has this problem, too. But it seems to me that the flexibility of Geneve's structure gives us an opportunity to carry entropy in a more efficient way: define a block of option class/type values to carry entropy in a one-word option: +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Option Class | Entropy |C| Entropy |R|R|R| Length=0| +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ The block is defined by specifying the high-order 9 bits of the class field, thus consuming 2^-9 ~ 0.2% of the class space. The option (to be effective) would be required to be the first option. This placement makes it easy for routers to find: If the IP header's protocol/next-header field specifies Geneve, if the Geneve option length field is non-zero, and if the high-order nine bits of the option class have the specified values, the next 15 bits carry 14 bits of entropy. (Presumably the C bit is fixed as 0.) This changes the format of draft-ietf-nvo3-geneve-06 from +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Source Port = xxxx | Dest Port = 6081 | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ UDP | UDP Length | UDP Checksum | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |O|C| Rsvd. | Protocol Type | Geneve +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ fixed | Virtual Network Identifier (VNI) | Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | ~ Variable Length Options ~ Options | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- to +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |O|C| Rsvd. | Protocol Type | Geneve +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ fixed | Virtual Network Identifier (VNI) | Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class | Entropy |C| Entropy |R|R|R| Length | Entropy +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | ~ Variable Length Options ~ Options | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- If we allow a "short header" bit and no VNI is needed, this could be reduced further to: +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |O|C|S| Rsvd. | Protocol Type | Geneve fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class | Entropy |C| Entropy |R|R|R| Length | Entropy +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | ~ Variable Length Options ~ Options | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- The flexibility of Geneve's TLV structure allows it to carry entropy directly, which makes up for the extra space that the TLV structure consumes. In most cases I've seen in the drafts, Geneve with an entropy option is at least as efficient as other proposals. Overhead Overhead Encapsulation with VNI without VNI Geneve/entropy 4 words 3 words UDP/VXLAN-GPE 4 words UDP/OOAM 4 words NSH 2 words (which is encapsulated by Ethernet, and seems to carry no entropy) (I have some misunderstanding regarding the length and structure of the IOAM fixed part. draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 seems to show it as one word, but draft-brockners-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00 shows it as two words. I use the one-word form here except in the NSH example. As long as IOAM is carried in a Geneve option, the first word of the long form seems to be redundant.) Geneve (short header) 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |O|C|S| Rsvd. | Protocol Type | Geneve fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class | Entropy |C| Entropy |R|R|R| Length | Geneve option +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class = IOAM_Trace |C| IOAM-Trace |R|R|R| Length | Geneve option +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | IOAM-Trace-Type |NodeLen| Flags | Octets-left | IOAM fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | IOAM data ~ ~ space | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- Geneve (long header) 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver| Opt Len |O|C|S| Rsvd. | Protocol Type | Geneve fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Virtual Network Identifier | Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class | Entropy |C| Entropy |R|R|R| Length | Geneve option +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Option Class = IOAM_Trace |C| IOAM-Trace |R|R|R| Length | Geneve option +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | IOAM-Trace-Type |NodeLen| Flags | Octets-left | IOAM fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | IOAM data ~ ~ space | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- VXLAN-GPE from draft-brockners-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Source Port = xxxx | Dest Port = 6081 | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ UDP | UDP Length | UDP Checksum | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |R|R|Ver|I|P|R|O| Reserved |NP=IOAM_Trace | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ GPE | Virtual Network Identifier (VNI) | Reserved | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | IOAM-Trace-Type |NodeLen| Flags | Octets-left | IOAM fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | IOAM data ~ ~ space | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- OOAM from draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header-04 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Source Port = xxxx | Dest Port = 6081 | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ UDP | UDP Length | UDP Checksum | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | V | Msg Type | Length | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ OOAM header | Flags | Reserved | Next Prot | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | IOAM-Trace-Type |NodeLen| Flags | Octets-left | IOAM fixed +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | IOAM data ~ ~ space | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- NSH from draft-brockners-sfc-ioam-nsh-00 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- |Ver|O|C|R|R|R|R|R|R| Length | MD Type | NP=IOAM_Trace | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ NSH fixed | Service Path Identifer | Service Index | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | ~ ~ NSH data | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | Type | IOAM HDR len| Reserved | Next Protocol | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ IOAM | IOAM-Trace-Type |NodeLen| Flags | Octets-left | Trace +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- | | ~ ~ IOAM data | | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ <-- Dale From nobody Sun Apr 22 09:28:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B56126C22 for ; 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Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:28:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.48.35 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:28:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 09:28:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG , Mickey Spiegel , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Tianran Zhou Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [sfc] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 16:28:24 -0000 On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:21 AM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > Hi Tom, > > I agree that using IOAM in IPv6 both e2e and hbh is a powerful and useful= combo! > > My point, sorry if I was not clear, is that an =E2=80=9CSFC Hop=E2=80=9D = does not correspond to a transport encapsulation hop, and that IOAM can be = in-situ=E2=80=99ed to the encapsulation that realizes the (service, overlay= , otherwise higher) topology (which can be IPv6 natively or something else = as well) > Carlos, AFACT, the intent is that nodes along the path of a packet containing in-situ ippm data may modify the ippm data as described in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data. Your comment confirms my belief that part of the intent is that intermediate nodes, specifically nodes that are not addressed by the destination address of a packet, may also modify ippm data. If this is correct, then I understand how this process could work correctly with hop-by-hop options. However, I don't understand how this can work correclty with encapsulation where the ippm data is within the encapsulation. IP has no allowance for intermediate nodes to modify transport payloads. For example, if UDP payloads are being modified in the network, then this introduces the possibility of silent corruption when the port number is misinterpreted. Thanks, Tom > Thanks, > > Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro. > Excuze typofraphicak errows > >> On Apr 21, 2018, at 11:05, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) >> wrote: >>> Tom, >>> >>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Tom Herbert wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 12:51 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi Tianran, >>> >>> Tom's note already includes the hint: You'll add IOAM data to the >>> protocol/layer that you're interested in monitoring. Again using Geneve= over >>> IPv6 as an example: >>> * If you're interested in the overlay, i.e. Geneve (e.g. timestamping t= he >>> packet when it enters and exists the tunnel) - you'd add IOAM data to G= eneve >>> * If you're interested in the underlay, i.e. IPv6 (e.g. you'd like to >>> understand which path packets take in the v6 network) - you'd add IOAM = data >>> to IPv6 >>> * If you're interested in both, then you'd add IOAM data to Geneve and = IPv6 >>> >>> Frank, >>> >>> In that case why not just use a hop-by-hop option for measuring the >>> underlay and a destination option for measuring the overlay? The >>> advantage is that this works _any_ IP encapsulation method or any IP >>> protocol for that matter. >>> >>> >>> Because you want to instrument the layer that you want to measure. >>> Because there=E2=80=99s cases with more unnatural layering where there= =E2=80=99s a desire to >>> correlate and compare measurements across layers (in a way in which, fo= r >>> example, the Service layer is tested in a service chaining scenario, no= t the >>> IPv6 hop-by-hop. >>> Because different topologies expose different Hops and IPv6 HBH goes by= the >>> IPv6 node topology. >>> Because not everything is IPv6, and because you have cases of IPv6 over >>> something as well. >>> Those are quick ones that come to mind. >>> >> Carlos, >> >> Please see my other email that details some use cases that shows >> destination options are functionally equivalent to ippm in >> encapsulation, and also my comments that the IPv6 has superior >> capabilities to cover in-situ ippm requirements (in particular that IP >> options are the _only_ protocol conformant means for intermediate >> nodes to change IP payloads needed for IOAM tracing). >> >> I don't have a general issue with supporting ippm in encapsulation, >> but I do think this should be viewed as legacy support. Note there is >> no concept of segment routing in IPv4, they are blazing forward only >> on IPv6 so it is reasonable to take this view. Personally, I don't >> think this is a disadvantage to SR. IPv6 does have more capabilities >> than IPv4 and we're now seeing protocols that will take advantage of >> those. Features like this are good motivation for moving to IPv6, >> which in the long run is good for the Internet! >> >> Tom >> >>> Frank, >>> I don't believe adding ippm to every >>> encapsulation protocol is straightforward: e.g. >>> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve describe but notes the limited size >>> of header, draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre states that a new EtherType would >>> be needed just for this purpose. This also entails additional >>> encapsulation-specific HW support also, whereas support destination >>> and hbh options could be more generic. >>> >>> >>> Engineering is about trade-offs. If you want to measure Geneve, there a= re >>> limitations. But instead of trying to prove why it does not work, I=E2= =80=99ll point >>> to working demos of where it does =E2=80=94 many of which on different = HW/SW and >>> encaps, shown at various IETF events. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> =E2=80=94 Carlos Pignataro >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Draft draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 already mentions layering (see secti= on >>> 3): >>> "Layering: If several encapsulation protocols (e.g., in case of tunneli= ng) >>> are stacked on top of each other, IOAM data-records could be present at >>> every layer. The behavior follows the ships-in-the-night model." >>> >>> Given the discussion here, we'll add some additional text in the next >>> revision to make things crisper (e.g. adding an example might help). >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tianran Zhou >>> Sent: Dienstag, 17. April 2018 03:18 >>> To: Tom Herbert >>> Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners >>> (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >>> ; NVO3 ; Service Function >>> Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> I think it's better that Frank or Shwetha can explain the multi-layer u= se >>> case in detail. >>> >>> Tianran >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 10:40 PM >>> To: Tianran Zhou >>> Cc: Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) ; Frank Brockners >>> (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >>> ; NVO3 ; int-area >>> ; Service Function Chaining IETF list >>> ; IETF IPPM WG >>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:31 AM, Tianran Zhou >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Shwetha, >>> >>> You are talking about the outer encapsution. It is straight forward >>> for the underlay to record by the header. But what about the >>> overlay, i.e., inner encapsulation(e.g. geneve)? Without special >>> configuration, intermediate node will not read the inner header, >>> hence not be able to process IOAM.e >>> >>> >>> Hi Tianran, >>> >>> I believe that is also not protocol conformant. Intermediate nodes >>> should not be processing transport layer data as this can lead to >>> misinterpretation and possibly silent data corruption. >>> >>> For instance, Geneve is a UDP encapsulation protocol with assigned port >>> 6081. >>> In order for an intermediate device to process the Geneve >>> encapsulation header it would need to look for packets with >>> destination port of 6081 since that is the only possible >>> discriminator. However, transport port numbers do not have global >>> meaning and hosts may use port numbers for other purposes (RFC7605 >>> describes this). So a packet to port 6081 might be something other >>> than Geneve and may be misinterpreted. If a misinterpreted packet is ch= anged >>> (like ippm data is written) then that would be systematic silent data >>> corruption. >>> >>> As far as I know, hop-by-hop options is the only protocol confirming >>> mechanism that allows an intermediate note to change data of packet in >>> flight. >>> Encpasulation is the only conforming mechanism that allows an >>> intermediate node to add data (like extension headers) to a packet in >>> flight. >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> Maybe we are not synced by this overlay/underlay use case. :-) >>> >>> Tianran >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> Sent from WeLink >>> >>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) >>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Tianran Zhou;Frank Brockners >>> (fbrockne);Mickey >>> Spiegel;Tom >>> Herbert >>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A NVO3;int-area;Service Function >>> Chaining IETF list;IETF IPPM WG >>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM= data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2018-04-16 18:17:01 >>> >>> Hi Tianran, >>> >>> If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >>> >>> >>> Data draft is defining the data to be carried in IOAM in an >>> encapsulation agnostic way, it does not specify how the >>> encapsulation protocol is configured. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. >>> >>> >>> While it is, it does not have to be a node by node configuration. It >>> can be part of the encapsulation definition. >>> >>> For e.g. If the encapsulation is IPv6 and if we define the data to >>> be carried as HbH options, then based on the Option Type with >>> highest order 2 bits set to 00 then the v6 nodes that implement IOAM >>> will process the option and others will skip over. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Shwetha >>> >>> >>> >>> From: ippm on behalf of Tianran Zhou >>> >>> Date: Monday, April 16, 2018 at 2:36 PM >>> To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Mickey >>> Spiegel , Tom Herbert >>> >>> Cc: NVO3 , "int-area@ietf.org" , >>> Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG >>> >>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Frank, >>> >>> >>> >>> If I recall right, it is not written in the ioam data draft. >>> >>> Yes, node by node configuration is an easy way. In the >>> draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang, we have the =E2=80=9Cprotocol-type=E2=80=9D = to indicate >>> the layering. >>> >>> +--rw ioam >>> >>> +--rw ioam-profiles >>> >>> +--rw enabled? boolean >>> >>> +--rw ioam-profile* [profile-name] >>> >>> +--rw profile-name string >>> >>> +--rw filter >>> >>> | +--rw filter-type? ioam-filter-type >>> >>> | +--rw acl-name? -> /acl:acls/acl/name >>> >>> +--rw protocol-type? ioam-protocol-type >>> >>> +--rw incremental-tracing-profile {incremental-trace}? >>> >>> | ... >>> >>> +--rw preallocated-tracing-profile {preallocated-trace}? >>> >>> | ... >>> >>> +--rw pot-profile {proof-of-transit}? >>> >>> | ... >>> >>> +--rw e2e-profile {edge-to-edge}? >>> >>> ... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tianran >>> >>> From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 4:51 PM >>> To: Tianran Zhou ; Mickey Spiegel >>> ; Tom Herbert >>> Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Tianran, >>> >>> >>> >>> IOAM is a domain specific feature (see also >>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 sections 3 and 4), which allows an >>> operator to control by means of configuration where and for which >>> traffic IOAM data fields are added/updated/removed from the customer >>> traffic. Using your example of Geneve over IPv6 =E2=80=93 with IOAM dat= a in >>> both the Geneve and the IPv6 protocol, one would expect that the >>> operator configures the endpoints of the Geneve tunnel to operate on >>> the IOAM data in Geneve, and the IPv6 routers that the Geneve tunnel >>> >>> traverses to operate on the IOAM data in IPv6. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Tianran Zhou >>> Sent: Montag, 16. April 2018 10:37 >>> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) ; Mickey Spiegel >>> ; Tom Herbert >>> Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> Subject: RE: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Frank, >>> >>> >>> >>> How does a forwarder know when and where to insert the data? >>> >>> In the case of Geneve over IPv6, do you mean the device need to scan >>> all the protocol stack? Or just the outer encapsulation? >>> >>> >>> >>> Tianran >>> >>> >>> >>> From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank >>> Brockners >>> (fbrockne) >>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2018 3:08 PM >>> To: Mickey Spiegel ; Tom Herbert >>> >>> Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, >>> >>> >>> >>> a quick addition to what Mickey mentioned below: What you seem to >>> have in mind is what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-02 refers to as =E2=80= =9Clayering=E2=80=9D >>> (see section 3.), i.e. if you=E2=80=99re running for example Geneve ove= r >>> IPv6, then IOAM data could be encapsulated in both protocols, Geneve >>> and >>> IPv6 =E2=80=93 giving you visibility into the =E2=80=9Cunderlay=E2=80= =9D (IPv6) and the =E2=80=9Coverlay=E2=80=9D >>> >>> (Geneve). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> >>> From: ippm On Behalf Of Mickey Spiegel >>> Sent: Freitag, 13. April 2018 20:22 >>> To: Tom Herbert >>> Cc: NVO3 ; int-area@ietf.org; Service Function >>> Chaining IETF list ; IETF IPPM WG >>> Subject: Re: [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM, Tom Herbert wro= te: >>> >>> Mickey, >>> >>> Looking at these ippm drafts more closely, I have a much more >>> fundamental concern. >>> >>> In draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00 for instance, there is the >>> text in the introduction: >>> >>> "In-situ OAM (IOAM) records OAM information within the packet while >>> the packet traverses a particular network domain. The term "in-situ" >>> refers to the fact that the IOAM data fields are added to the data >>> packets rather than is being sent within packets specifically >>> dedicated to OAM. This document defines how IOAM data fields are >>> transported as part of the Geneve [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve] >>> encapsulation." >>> >>> I assume this means that as packets with Geneve encapsulation >>> traverse the network they are interpreted by intermediate nodes as >>> being Geneve. Since Geneve is a UDP encapsulation, then the >>> destination UDP port number would be used to identify packets as >>> being Geneve. So an intermediate device might be looking for UDP >>> packets destined to port >>> 6081 (the assigned UDP port for Geneve). If my understanding is >>> correct, then this is a problem. >>> >>> UDP port numbers do not have global meaning. An intermediate device >>> may very well see UDP packets destined to port 6081 that are not >>> actually Geneve. This scenario is discussed in RFC7605: >>> >>> "...intermediate device interprets traffic based on the port number. >>> It is important to recognize that any interpretation of port numbers >>> -- except at the endpoints -- may be incorrect, because port numbers >>> are meaningful only at the endpoints." >>> >>> If the UDP data is modified, as the draft would imply, then >>> misinterpretation may also mean silent data corruption of packets. A >>> protocol that would allow this seems pretty incorrect! Note that >>> this would be true also for any UDP encapsulation that the network >>> tries to interpret. >>> >>> >>> >>> The intention is to allow for multiple nodes that a packet traverses >>> >>> to be able to insert IOAM node information in the same trace option, >>> >>> but leave some flexibility regarding which nodes actually do the >>> >>> IOAM processing and the node information. This may vary >>> >>> depending on the transport. >>> >>> >>> >>> In case of a tunneled encapsulation such as Geneve or VXLAN, >>> >>> there may still be multiple hops. For example a network may use >>> >>> Geneve or VXLAN, but only do L2 processing at ToRs, with L3 >>> >>> processing done at aggregation or core switches. In this case >>> >>> many packets would do 2 Geneve or VXLAN hops, so the packet >>> >>> would contain IOAM node information from two nodes. >>> >>> >>> >>> Another example is service function chaining using Geneve or >>> >>> VXLAN rather than NSH. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am also wondering if hop-by-hop options been considered for this >>> application? Their interpretation in the network is unabiguous and >>> they also have the advantage that the work with any IP protocol or >>> encapsulation. >>> >>> >>> >>> IPv6 hop-by-hop options has been considered. See >>> >>> draft-brockners-inband-oam-transport-05. This has not yet been >>> >>> broken out into a separate draft. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mickey >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Mickey Spiegel >>> wrote: >>> >>> Tom, >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Tom Herbert wrot= e: >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Greg Mirsky >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Frank, >>> thank you for sharing your points. Please find my notes in-line >>> and tagged >>> GIM>>. I believe that this is very much relevant to work of >>> GIM>>other >>> working >>> groups that directly work on the overlay encapsulations in the >>> center of the discussion and hence I've added them to the list. >>> Hope we'll have more opinions to reach the conclusion that is >>> acceptable to all. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Greg >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 11, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Back at the IPPM meeting in London, we discussed several drafts >>> dealing with the encapsulation of IOAM data in various >>> protocols (draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-vxlan-gpe-00, >>> draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-geneve-00, >>> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00). One discussion topic that we >>> decided to take to the list was the question on whether >>> draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header could be leveraged.. After >>> carefully considering draft-ooamdt-rtgwg-ooam-header, I came to >>> the conclusion that the =E2=80=9COOAM header=E2=80=9D does not meet the= needs >>> of >>> IOAM: >>> >>> * Efficiency: IOAM adds data to live user traffic. As such, an >>> encapsulation needs to be as efficient as possible. The =E2=80=9COOAM h= eader=E2=80=9D >>> is 8 >>> bytes long. The approach for IOAM data encapsulation in the >>> above mentioned drafts only requires 4 bytes. Using the OOAM >>> header approach would add an unnecessary overhead of 4 bytes =E2=80=93 >>> which is significant. >>> >>> Greg, >>> >>> I'm missing something here. I looked at the drafts you referenced >>> and each of them looks like the overhead for OAM is greater that >>> four bytes. In each there is some overhead equivalent to >>> type/length, for instance in Geneve four bytes are needed for >>> option class, type, and length. Unless the the OAM data is zero >>> length, I don't see how this adds up to only four bytes of overhead. >>> >>> >>> >>> The four versus eight bytes just refers to the fields in the four >>> bytes of IOAM info, that is common to all IOAM options. Beyond >>> that, there are IOAM option specific fields. For example if doing >>> one of the IOAM trace options, there are four bytes of trace option >>> header, including the IOAM-trace-type, NodeLen, Flags, and >>> RemainingLen fields. These are followed by the node data list >>> containing the per hop IOAM information. >>> >>> In looking at the OOAM header content, it has nothing to do with >>> any of the IOAM information after the first four bytes. It contains >>> another variant of the information in the first four bytes of IOAM >>> info, spread out over eight bytes. >>> >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> GIM>> The difference in four octets is because OOAM Header: >>> >>> provides more flexibility, e.g. Flags field and Reserved fields; >>> >>> >>> >>> The flags field only has one defined flag at the moment, for a >>> timestamp block. For IOAM trace we need per hop timestamps, which >>> the timestamp block cannot address, i.e. the timestamp block is >>> redundant for >>> >>> IOAM. >>> >>> >>> >>> supports larger OAM packets than iOAM header; >>> >>> >>> >>> For IOAM purposes, 1020 octets is more than enough. >>> >>> >>> is future proof by supporting versioning (Version field). >>> >>> >>> >>> IMO, taking the first two bits of the IOAM-Type to define a Version >>> field would be a good thing. This does not require adding four more >>> bytes of overhead. 64 IOAM-Types is more than enough. >>> >>> >>> >>> * Maturity: IOAM has several implementations, which were also >>> shown at recent IETF hackathons =E2=80=93 and we=E2=80=99re expecting >>> additional implementations to be publicized soon. Interoperable >>> implementations need timely specifications. Despite the >>> question being asked, the recent thread on OOAM in the NVO3 >>> list hasn=E2=80=99t revealed any implementation of the OOAM header. >>> In >>> addition, the thread revealed that several fundamental >>> questions about the OOAM header are still open, such as whether >>> or how active OAM mechanisms within protocols such as Geneve >>> would apply to the OOAM header. This ultimately means that we >>> won=E2=80=99t get to a timely specification. >>> >>> >>> GIM>> May I ask which encapsulations supported by the >>> GIM>> implementations >>> you >>> refer to. Until very recently all iOAM proposals were to use >>> meta-data TLV in, e.g. Geneve and NSH. And if these or some of >>> these implementations already updated to the newly proposed iOAM >>> shim, I don't see problem in making them use OOAM Header. Would >>> you agree? >>> >>> >>> * Scope: It isn=E2=80=99t entirely clear to which protocols the OOAM >>> header would ultimately apply to. The way the OOAM header is >>> defined, OOAM uses a 8-bit field for =E2=80=9CNext Prot=E2=80=9D, the n= ext >>> protocol. Some protocols that IOAM data needs to be >>> encapsulated into use 16-bits for their next protocol code points. See = e.g. >>> the GRE encapsulation =E2=80=93 as specified in >>> draft-weis-ippm-ioam-gre-00. >>> >>> >>> GIM>> The first paragraph of the Introduction section states: >>> New protocols that support overlay networks like VxLAN-GPE >>> [I-D.ietf-nvo3-vxlan-gpe], GUE [I-D.ietf-nvo3-gue], Geneve >>> [I-D.ietf-nvo3-geneve], BIER >>> [I-D.ietf-bier-mpls-encapsulation], >>> >>> and >>> >>> NSH [I-D.ietf-sfc-nsh] support multi-protocol payload, e.g. >>> Ethernet, IPv4/IPv6, and recognize Operations, Administration, and >>> Maintenance (OAM) as one of distinct types. That ensures that >>> Overlay OAM (OOAM)packets are sharing fate with Overlay data packet >>> traversing the underlay. >>> I'm updating the OOAM Header draft and along with cleaning nits >>> will update reference to GUE. I think that the list and the >>> statemnt are quite clear in identifying the scope of networks >>> that may benefit from using not only common OOAM Header but >>> common OOAM mechanisms, e.g. Echo Request/Reply. >>> >>> With the above in mind, I=E2=80=99d suggest that the WG moves forward >>> with specific definitions for encapsulating IOAM data into >>> protocols =E2=80=93 per the above mentioned drafts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, Frank >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> ippm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Int-area mailing list >>> Int-area@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> ippm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> 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([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 20:00:26 -0400 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Tom Herbert CC: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , NVO3 , Service Function Chaining IETF list , IETF IPPM WG , Mickey Spiegel , "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" , Tianran Zhou Thread-Topic: [sfc] [ippm] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London Thread-Index: AQHT1en5jaGR0tKoZUqNJvcZ9CCngaQE2SWAgABtMICABQVeAIABT8mAgADvQ2mAALpSAIAAaaeA Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 00:00:25 +0000 Message-ID: <21C483C8-3AEF-462D-979C-B2A40C99E905@cisco.com> References: <8d1b3bb4a1794c4fac3455257e0ab60e@XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <35FF68179B296541B13289652DFE120C@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [sfc] [Int-area] encapsulation of IOAM data in various protocols - follow up from WG discussion in London X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 00:00:51 -0000 SGkgVG9tLA0KDQpBIHF1aWNrIHRvcC1wb3N0IHJlc3BvbnNlOiBJIGJlbGlldmUgeW91IGFyZSBt YWtpbmcgYXNzdW1wdGlvbnMgYWJvdXQgaG93IHRoaXMgd29ya3MgaW4gYSBtdWx0aXBsYXllciBl bnZpcm9ubWVudCwgYW5kIGFib3V0IHdoaWNoIG5vZGVzIGNhbiBtb2RpZnkgd2hhdC4gDQoNCklu c3RlYWQgb2YgZW1haWwsIGxldCB1cyAobGlrZSBGcmFuayBoYWQgYWxzbyBzYWlkKSBleHBhbmQg b24gYSB0aWdodGVyIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGFuZCB1c2UgY2FzZSBleGFtcGxlIGluIHRoZSBkcmFm dCBpdHNlbGYsIFNlY3Rpb24gMywgYW5kIGNsb3NlIHRoaXMgbG9vcCB0aGF0IHdheS4gDQoNClRo dW1iIHR5cGVkIGJ5IENhcmxvcyBQaWduYXRhcm8uDQpFeGN1emUgdHlwb2ZyYXBoaWNhayBlcnJv d3MNCg0KPiBPbiBBcHIgMjIsIDIwMTgsIGF0IDExOjI4LCBUb20gSGVyYmVydCA8dG9tQGhlcmJl 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+Pj4+IGlwcG0gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+Pj4+IGlwcG1A aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pcHBt DQo+Pj4+IA0KPj4+PiANCj4+Pj4gDQo+Pj4+IA0KPj4+PiANCj4+Pj4gDQo+Pj4+IF9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+Pj4+IHNmYyBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4+Pj4gc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQo+Pj4+IA0KPj4+PiANCg== From nobody Sun Apr 22 22:14:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74BE1273E2; Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:14:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Mahesh Jethanandani To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152446049164.5364.2499773245937974551@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 22:14:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Yangdoctors early review of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 05:14:52 -0000 Reviewer: Mahesh Jethanandani Review result: Not Ready Document reviewed: draft-ietf-stamp-yang-01 Status: Not ready. Summary: This document specifies the data model for implementations of Session-Sender and Session-Reflector for Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) mode using YANG. Minor - Please update references of RFC6020 with RFC7950, as this is a YANG 1.1 model. - Please add a separate paragraph or section of notes to the RFC editor, instead of scattering it across the document. RFC Editors appreciate not having to look for instructions all over the document. - Also what does “ref to STAMP draft” imply? This draft, some other draft, or RFC? - Please update references to NMDA architecture document. Major: If the data model is for STAMP, how is that RFC (or I-D) not referenced anywhere in the model? At the minimum most of data nodes should have references to the sections that describe them in the STAMP RFC. Please fix indentation issues in the model. I see use of 1 space, 2 spaces, 4 spaces and even 8 spaces in the model. It makes reading of the model very difficult. If statements carry into a subsequent line, consider indenting the second line. s/stamp/STAMP/g This document is NOT NMDA compliant. The whole idea of NMDA is that you do not need a separate -state container. NDMA does not advocate having a separate container with exactly the same nodes from config. An example is the nodes ‘packet-padding-size’ and ‘interval’, which are duplicated in both the config and -state container. On the other hand ‘duplicate-packets’ and ‘reordered-packets’ make sense. Once the duplicate nodes have been removed, rather than calling the container stamp-state, call it stamp-statistics, or something else that does not imply the same meaning as pre-NMDA models containers did. Section 2.1 - The draft says it “describes all the parameters of the stamp data model.” I do not think you are describing the parameters of the STAMP data model. What you are describing is the block diagram (Fig 1) or the containers within the model, not the individual parameters. Section 2.1.1 Once the -state container has been updated/removed, update the second paragraph. s/referenced by session-id STAMP/referenced session by the session-id of the STAMP/ Section 3 I am not sure on the use of MAY. Is it that the use of IP and UDP port is sufficient? If so, when it is okay? There is also a use of ‘may’ w.r.t. to STAMP test sessions. How are the two mays related? Finally, even if one was to use 5-tuple as a key, which includes a DSCP value that can be remarked, how would one uniquely identify a session? Section 3.1 Please add a informative reference to the Tree Diagram RFC. Section 3.2 Please add references to any RFCs referenced in the model up front, before the model. Remove the comment “//namespace need to be assigned by IANA”. Instead update the IANA section with the information of what namespace needs to be assigned. Could a shorter prefix be used, e.g. “stamp”? For reference to RFC 6991 and 8177, please add the title of those RFCs. For contact, please add the name of individual authors instead of using a mailing list, per Section 4.8 of rfc6087bis. The description is very sparse. Consider adding more text. Also the document is missing the IETF Copyright statement, per section 4.8 of rfc6087bis. The revision statement should say something like “Initial version” instead of 00, as those numbers are not relevant once the document is published. Also consider replacing “” for the reference statement with something like “RFC XXXX: STAMP Data Model”, and have a note of the RFC editor to replace XXXX with the assigned RFC number. Consider updating descriptions for each leaf. A description “Packets received” for ‘rcv-packets’ is not descriptive. Also add references to sections in the STAMP RFC. Why is there a need for feature statements for ‘session-sender’ and ‘session-reflector’. Would there be a case that a customer would configure a ‘session-reflector’ without a ‘session-sender’ or vice-versa? What is ’type enable’? Did the authors mean ‘type boolean”? Would it not be simpler to have ‘number-of-packets’ or ‘repeat’ as a choice statement, where the choice is between a set number of test packets or ‘forever’? Same for the other union statements. Consider using ‘derived-from’ or ‘derived-from-or-self’ in when statements, instead of a string comparison. From nobody Mon Apr 23 03:44:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B139128C0A; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 03:44:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Francesca Palombini To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152448027744.5388.467690097024295297@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 03:44:37 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:44:38 -0000 Reviewer: Francesca Palombini Review result: Ready with Nits I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-?? Reviewer: Francesca Palombini Review Date: 2018-04-23 IETF LC End Date: 2018-04-25 IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat Summary: This draft is basically ready for publication, but has nits that should be fixed before publication. Major issues: None Minor issues: None Nits/editorial comments: Please note that most of the following comments are suggestions to make the text more clear in my opinion. Feel free to disregard or fix as you prefer. * Section 3: "For example Neighbor Discovery Protocol (NDP) [RFC4861] packets are transmitted with Hop Limit value set to 255, and the validity test specifies that the Hop Limit MUST have a value of 255 at the receiver, too. So, while other tests may intentionally exclude the TTL/Hop Limit value from their Type-P definition, for this particular test the correct Hop Limit value is of high relevance and MUST be part of the Type-P definition." Regarding the use of MUST: The text above is not an absolute requirement of the specification, but rather an example to a referenced document. In my opinion, using "must" would be ok here. (About MUST, was there any specific reason not to use the updated boilerplate referencing RFC8174?) * Section 3: "Load balancing over parallel paths is one particular example where such a class C would be more complex to determine in IPPM measurements." I would have appreciated a reference to a load balancing over parallel paths example. * Section 4: "For an IPv4 ( [RFC0791] and updates) packet to be standard-formed, the following additional criteria are REQUIRED:" "For an IPv6 ([RFC8200] and updates) packet to be standard-formed, the following criteria are REQUIRED:" To be consistent with the first bullet of the list above ("It includes a valid IP header: see below for version-specific criteria."), I would rephrase the text above with something on the lines of: "For an IPvX (...) packet to be standard-formed, the IPvX-specific criteria for a valid IP header are:" Also, note the space before "[RFC0791] and updates)" * Section 4: "An adaptation layer enables the transfer IPv6 packets over networks having a MTU smaller than the minimum IPv6 MTU." NEW: "An adaptation layer enables the transfer of IPv6 packets over networks having a MTU smaller than the minimum IPv6 MTU." * Section 5: "All these changes MUST be reported." I'd like more clarity on where they should be reported: does this mean they MUST be reported when reporting the test results? Or on test spec? Either? Both? * From id-nits check: (Using the creation date from RFC2330, updated by this document, for RFC5378 checks: 1998-02-23) -- The document seems to lack a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 work, but may have content which was first submitted before 10 November 2008. If you have contacted all the original authors and they are all willing to grant the BCP78 rights to the IETF Trust, then this is fine, and you can ignore this comment. If not, you may need to add the pre-RFC5378 disclaimer. (See the Legal Provisions document at https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info for more information.) IETF Trust Legal Provisions of 28-dec-2009, Section 6.c(iii): This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF Contributions published or made publicly available before November 10, 2008. The person(s) controlling the copyright in some of this material may not have granted the IETF Trust the right to allow modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process. Without obtaining an adequate license from the person(s) controlling the copyright in such materials, this document may not be modified outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format it for publication as an RFC or to translate it into languages other than English. From nobody Mon Apr 23 09:48:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2944512D873; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:48:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.79.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152450209311.21874.12317789046221633@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:48:13 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 16:48:13 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model Authors : Ruth Civil Al Morton Reshad Rahman Mahesh Jethanandani Kostas Pentikousis Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt Pages : 68 Date : 2018-04-23 Abstract: This document specifies a data model for client and server implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). The document defines the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specifies it using YANG. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Apr 23 09:53:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8762812D873; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juMZwYe_AJS2; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com (mail-lf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66E7012D86D; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id g203-v6so15995989lfg.11; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TKcyAVjkCrs8lA+YWSIXY/WN5wAUSqRwBIrCg9qJpJM=; b=YYEabmaKqrZmBpf1a0XE6lSHyZZU7lh8qD7dWqPyj0hSy4GyDp5b2s4925Rh0k/lZ2 sYQWRO6ah8O/tHqrXwZPSN1PAHUyLiG1A+NS4p66BhlHKgPc2oMg8W8KZCWTd7vHzqyC NeQdKuko4Y9rvUmzqjEQFmcvJJ1TwcT7sC/H13CpC0svXS6tGba5nhHOmWAQMa0sWyOl Eoljr9kY0JRnxlmUQ6Kp9T0mboLzr9QPRE7TuW673scIAMDJfCrtFsFvibTFH++EfTEk c5hTCIntE5BWYyukWb7uh7o6U4Q2qqFeWbMW+YaZkD+93RKbffh9CuR2pz749WYdBa3f NKvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TKcyAVjkCrs8lA+YWSIXY/WN5wAUSqRwBIrCg9qJpJM=; b=jz58RTDnOA4iYV9pNaCMa7M2UgP4MyuAQjxnN2vWE/TBDDQKd8GTSwSKoYwkR/Ze0q sZe+de4ulmIPMnaHGaBrl/pBVB/1urkkg7/2uf1rLhiCN6uSA6n7QFxh+RtFHH8AdotF ipnPQfxlt5p2EY8X9kOuKemoIfdhwhZZX8hSKtTbD5MsMewyt7sQv7qFfRmnf4z7Srm+ h0P37q6CYV1o9WRqj3+SiubhjkO2gxyY4/TaaZa9zAwBvqWBkazLc0N0+XyTdw5RRDt8 Iyyo/MjO47zFOCZcp7yVXs8kBpkUxD/QxiBoyrpbTn9VtfNcTSnuug1Yd+uCduBaR3nN MhUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCU1587OrlPpEOSCzNBkYjmHZT75KQyyCyM4gefpx5T5v9+Z9AR LE07KmPiKvZht/yJ2wz+3SM5KFa80biYQ4NOMhk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZovhxYUaRF0mOwg/s+CdHrfeX8NI6ciyrVRJ1+vzNScxvRYT8yrHkThw11jV/okaBEHxzbIbChKPyhivbvooZ0= X-Received: by 2002:a19:1398:: with SMTP id 24-v6mr9734552lft.106.1524502400505; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:53:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.133.13 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:53:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <152446049164.5364.2499773245937974551@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <152446049164.5364.2499773245937974551@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:53:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: yang-doctors@ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG , ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000a9ef4056a86e09e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Yangdoctors early review of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 16:53:28 -0000 --0000000000000a9ef4056a86e09e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mahesh, thank you for the thorough review and the most detailed and thoughtful comments, suggestions. I'll work on the update in steps and will consult with you to address all issues you've pointed to. Best regards, Greg On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 10:14 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani < mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote: > Reviewer: Mahesh Jethanandani > Review result: Not Ready > > Document reviewed: draft-ietf-stamp-yang-01 > > Status: Not ready. > > Summary: > > This document specifies the data model for implementations of > Session-Sender > and Session-Reflector for Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol > (STAMP) > mode using YANG. > > Minor > > - Please update references of RFC6020 with RFC7950, as this is a YANG 1.1 > model. > - Please add a separate paragraph or section of notes to the RFC editor, > instead of scattering it across the document. RFC Editors appreciate not > having > to look for instructions all over the document. - Also what does =E2=80= =9Cref to > STAMP > draft=E2=80=9D imply? This draft, some other draft, or RFC? - Please upda= te > references > to NMDA architecture document. > > Major: > > If the data model is for STAMP, how is that RFC (or I-D) not referenced > anywhere in the model? At the minimum most of data nodes should have > references > to the sections that describe them in the STAMP RFC. > > Please fix indentation issues in the model. I see use of 1 space, 2 > spaces, 4 > spaces and even 8 spaces in the model. It makes reading of the model very > difficult. > > If statements carry into a subsequent line, consider indenting the second > line. > > s/stamp/STAMP/g > > This document is NOT NMDA compliant. The whole idea of NMDA is that you d= o > not > need a separate -state container. NDMA does not advocate having a separat= e > container with exactly the same nodes from config. An example is the node= s > =E2=80=98packet-padding-size=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98interval=E2=80=99, whi= ch are duplicated in both the > config > and -state container. On the other hand =E2=80=98duplicate-packets=E2=80= =99 and > =E2=80=98reordered-packets=E2=80=99 make sense. Once the duplicate nodes = have been removed, > rather than calling the container stamp-state, call it stamp-statistics, = or > something else that does not imply the same meaning as pre-NMDA models > containers did. > > Section 2.1 > > - The draft says it =E2=80=9Cdescribes all the parameters of the stamp da= ta > model.=E2=80=9D I > do not think you are describing the parameters of the STAMP data model. > What > you are describing is the block diagram (Fig 1) or the containers within > the > model, not the individual parameters. > > Section 2.1.1 > > Once the -state container has been updated/removed, update the second > paragraph. > > s/referenced by session-id STAMP/referenced session by the session-id of > the > STAMP/ > > Section 3 > > I am not sure on the use of MAY. Is it that the use of IP and UDP port is > sufficient? If so, when it is okay? There is also a use of =E2=80=98may= =E2=80=99 w.r.t. to > STAMP test sessions. How are the two mays related? > > Finally, even if one was to use 5-tuple as a key, which includes a DSCP > value > that can be remarked, how would one uniquely identify a session? > > Section 3.1 > > Please add a informative reference to the Tree Diagram RFC. > > Section 3.2 > > Please add references to any RFCs referenced in the model up front, befor= e > the > model. > > Remove the comment =E2=80=9C//namespace need to be assigned by IANA=E2=80= =9D. Instead > update > the IANA section with the information of what namespace needs to be > assigned. > > Could a shorter prefix be used, e.g. =E2=80=9Cstamp=E2=80=9D? > > For reference to RFC 6991 and 8177, please add the title of those RFCs. > > For contact, please add the name of individual authors instead of using a > mailing list, per Section 4.8 of rfc6087bis. > > The description is very sparse. Consider adding more text. Also the > document is > missing the IETF Copyright statement, per section 4.8 of rfc6087bis. > > The revision statement should say something like =E2=80=9CInitial version= =E2=80=9D instead > of > 00, as those numbers are not relevant once the document is published. Als= o > consider replacing =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D for the reference statement with so= mething like =E2=80=9CRFC > XXXX: STAMP Data Model=E2=80=9D, and have a note of the RFC editor to rep= lace XXXX > with > the assigned RFC number. > > Consider updating descriptions for each leaf. A description =E2=80=9CPack= ets > received=E2=80=9D > for =E2=80=98rcv-packets=E2=80=99 is not descriptive. Also add references= to sections in > the > STAMP RFC. > > Why is there a need for feature statements for =E2=80=98session-sender=E2= =80=99 and > =E2=80=98session-reflector=E2=80=99. Would there be a case that a custome= r would configure > a > =E2=80=98session-reflector=E2=80=99 without a =E2=80=98session-sender=E2= =80=99 or vice-versa? > > What is =E2=80=99type enable=E2=80=99? Did the authors mean =E2=80=98type= boolean=E2=80=9D? > > Would it not be simpler to have =E2=80=98number-of-packets=E2=80=99 or = =E2=80=98repeat=E2=80=99 as a choice > statement, where the choice is between a set number of test packets or > =E2=80=98forever=E2=80=99? Same for the other union statements. > > Consider using =E2=80=98derived-from=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98derived-from-or= -self=E2=80=99 in when statements, > instead of a string comparison. > > > --0000000000000a9ef4056a86e09e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mahesh,
thank you for the thorough review and the m= ost detailed and thoughtful comments, suggestions. I'll work on the upd= ate in steps and will consult with you to address all issues you've poi= nted to.

Best regards,
Greg
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Sun, Apr 22, 20= 18 at 10:14 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>= wrote:
Reviewer: Mahesh Jethanand= ani
Review result: Not Ready

Document reviewed: draft-ietf-stamp-yang-01

Status: Not ready.

Summary:

This document specifies the data model for implementations of Session-Sende= r
and Session-Reflector for Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP= )
mode using YANG.

Minor

- Please update references of RFC6020 with RFC7950, as this is a YANG 1.1 m= odel.
- Please add a separate paragraph or section of notes to the RFC editor, instead of scattering it across the document. RFC Editors appreciate not ha= ving
to look for instructions all over the document. - Also what does =E2=80=9Cr= ef to STAMP
draft=E2=80=9D imply? This draft, some other draft, or RFC? - Please update= references
to NMDA architecture document.

Major:

If the data model is for STAMP, how is that RFC (or I-D) not referenced
anywhere in the model? At the minimum most of data nodes should have refere= nces
to the sections that describe them in the STAMP RFC.

Please fix indentation issues in the model. I see use of 1 space, 2 spaces,= 4
spaces and even 8 spaces in the model. It makes reading of the model very difficult.

If statements carry into a subsequent line, consider indenting the second l= ine.

s/stamp/STAMP/g

This document is NOT NMDA compliant. The whole idea of NMDA is that you do = not
need a separate -state container. NDMA does not advocate having a separate<= br> container with exactly the same nodes from config. An example is the nodes<= br> =E2=80=98packet-padding-size=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98interval=E2=80=99, which= are duplicated in both the config
and -state container. On the other hand =E2=80=98duplicate-packets=E2=80=99= and
=E2=80=98reordered-packets=E2=80=99 make sense. Once the duplicate nodes ha= ve been removed,
rather than calling the container stamp-state, call it stamp-statistics, or=
something else that does not imply the same meaning as pre-NMDA models
containers did.

Section 2.1

- The draft says it =E2=80=9Cdescribes all the parameters of the stamp data= model.=E2=80=9D I
do not think you are describing the parameters of the STAMP data model. Wha= t
you are describing is the block diagram (Fig 1) or the containers within th= e
model, not the individual parameters.

Section 2.1.1

Once the -state container has been updated/removed, update the second parag= raph.

s/referenced by session-id STAMP/referenced session by the session-id of th= e
STAMP/

Section 3

I am not sure on the use of MAY. Is it that the use of IP and UDP port is sufficient? If so, when it is okay? There is also a use of =E2=80=98may=E2= =80=99 w.r.t. to
STAMP test sessions. How are the two mays related?

Finally, even if one was to use 5-tuple as a key, which includes a DSCP val= ue
that can be remarked, how would one uniquely identify a session?

Section 3.1

Please add a informative reference to the Tree Diagram RFC.

Section 3.2

Please add references to any RFCs referenced in the model up front, before = the
model.

Remove the comment =E2=80=9C//namespace need to be assigned by IANA=E2=80= =9D. Instead update
the IANA section with the information of what namespace needs to be assigne= d.

Could a shorter prefix be used, e.g. =E2=80=9Cstamp=E2=80=9D?

For reference to RFC 6991 and 8177, please add the title of those RFCs.

For contact, please add the name of individual authors instead of using a mailing list, per Section 4.8 of rfc6087bis.

The description is very sparse. Consider adding more text. Also the documen= t is
missing the IETF Copyright statement, per section 4.8 of rfc6087bis.

The revision statement should say something like =E2=80=9CInitial version= =E2=80=9D instead of
00, as those numbers are not relevant once the document is published. Also<= br> consider replacing =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D for the reference statement with some= thing like =E2=80=9CRFC
XXXX: STAMP Data Model=E2=80=9D, and have a note of the RFC editor to repla= ce XXXX with
the assigned RFC number.

Consider updating descriptions for each leaf. A description =E2=80=9CPacket= s received=E2=80=9D
for =E2=80=98rcv-packets=E2=80=99 is not descriptive. Also add references t= o sections in the
STAMP RFC.

Why is there a need for feature statements for =E2=80=98session-sender=E2= =80=99 and
=E2=80=98session-reflector=E2=80=99. Would there be a case that a customer = would configure a
=E2=80=98session-reflector=E2=80=99 without a =E2=80=98session-sender=E2=80= =99 or vice-versa?

What is =E2=80=99type enable=E2=80=99? Did the authors mean =E2=80=98type b= oolean=E2=80=9D?

Would it not be simpler to have =E2=80=98number-of-packets=E2=80=99 or =E2= =80=98repeat=E2=80=99 as a choice
statement, where the choice is between a set number of test packets or
=E2=80=98forever=E2=80=99? Same for the other union statements.

Consider using =E2=80=98derived-from=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98derived-from-or-s= elf=E2=80=99 in when statements,
instead of a string comparison.



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([2601:647:4700:1280:2d89:fd15:7a1c:df9e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q62sm28490833pfd.61.2018.04.23.09.54.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <152450209311.21874.12317789046221633@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:54:23 -0700 Cc: ippm@ietf.org, gen-art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <48C50081-B879-4A83-B8F6-A4562756C2DA@gmail.com> References: <152450209311.21874.12317789046221633@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "tom p." , Pete Resnick X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 16:54:33 -0000 Tom/Pete, We believe this version of the draft addresses your comments. Thanks. > On Apr 23, 2018, at 9:48 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the = IETF. >=20 > Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) = Data Model > Authors : Ruth Civil > Al Morton > Reshad Rahman > Mahesh Jethanandani > Kostas Pentikousis > Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt > Pages : 68 > Date : 2018-04-23 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies a data model for client and server > implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). > The document defines the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling > Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specifies it using YANG. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Mon Apr 23 10:05:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E1912D886; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:05:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axGaJ6PMwZtO; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D75D12D87A; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:05:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1524503139; x=1556039139; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to: references:mime-version; bh=VF8DWSjsjFvt1XOkzUl4RgkMmhtHCFU+zkPDVGI4gJ4=; b=ZN5yULo+WMNzTkcm3Tl1QHT8PTDmv/7HVkK1PllMvDKkITP/M37y2UWa wxbLEgsfuu29aqQUuQrLMF+92CM2rH4rycNSYs+vlE47SmtOChzR1KViG K+ffAMGn1uXGHMvh2ByvNwrf6AV2ySUbtNjGQzIr2oV8j+1EndqAxPo+r c=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.49,318,1520924400"; d="scan'208";a="433003272" Received: from unknown (HELO ironmsg01-sd.qualcomm.com) ([10.53.140.141]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 23 Apr 2018 10:05:38 -0700 Received: from nasanexm01f.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.32]) by ironmsg01-sd.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 23 Apr 2018 10:05:38 -0700 Received: from [10.38.244.55] (10.80.80.8) by NASANEXM01F.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:05:37 -0700 From: Pete Resnick To: Mahesh Jethanandani CC: tom p. , , , Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 12:05:36 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.11.1r5471) Message-ID: <5EB915C3-2DA3-4FA9-8190-4FD3ECBF0F48@qti.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <48C50081-B879-4A83-B8F6-A4562756C2DA@gmail.com> References: <152450209311.21874.12317789046221633@ietfa.amsl.com> <48C50081-B879-4A83-B8F6-A4562756C2DA@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: [10.80.80.8] X-ClientProxiedBy: NASANEXM01E.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.31) To NASANEXM01F.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.32) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:05:41 -0000 Thanks Mahesh. Looks great. pr On 23 Apr 2018, at 11:54, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > Tom/Pete, > > We believe this version of the draft addresses your comments. > > Thanks. > >> On Apr 23, 2018, at 9:48 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the >> IETF. >> >> Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) >> Data Model >> Authors : Ruth Civil >> Al Morton >> Reshad Rahman >> Mahesh Jethanandani >> Kostas Pentikousis >> Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt >> Pages : 68 >> Date : 2018-04-23 >> >> Abstract: >> This document specifies a data model for client and server >> implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). >> The document defines the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling >> Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specifies it using YANG. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Tue Apr 24 03:22:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BC81241F8; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 03:22:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JoiY-7DWrAyv; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 03:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr50137.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.5.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD23A1201F2; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 03:22:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-btconnect-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=N0WO8NuMk5FhHe6i0lDRknPOVd9u1kq8Q9Y+u9RGpMw=; b=jD5IAamyMgCKW+BxVwENyGc/NI5dEeDfcTlHf7/b4IQIsrUiMmdkfwkiiqwBvlS9oe5QHgGHj5sYV+V0m67PXKuXUKArXUG1mauB/IGJ0Lsw74izGkGNRpwCrCiR4XVz+GX6jqrQXe5Y175kpOGvNt7edfVa66O2CevsuhoapxU= Received: from pc6 (86.165.129.75) by DB6PR0701MB2343.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:4:60::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.715.7; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:22:21 +0000 Message-ID: <01da01d3dbb6$0030b800$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: "tom p." 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I am unsure what secret-key should look like. There are two rival models for keystore. RTGWG have produced RFC8177 which has choice key-string-style { ... case keystring { .. type string; description "Key string in ASCII format."; case hexadecimal { .. type yang:hex-string; description "Key in hexadecimal string format. The NETCONF WG have produced a number of I-D, such as draft-ietf-netconf-keystore, all of which have keys of type binary. A YANG string, as this I-D currently references, limits the character set of string which I do not think works without a binary or hex-string alternative. I note that draft-mirsky-ippm-twamp-light-yang went for a keychain-ref while draft-ietf-ospf-yang has case auth-trailer-key { ... type string; description "Key string in ASCII format."; without a hexadecimal alterntive which would seem to have limited entropy. Perhaps binary, as you had it originally, is best but I do think that the IETF is confused, or conflicted, here. Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mahesh Jethanandani" To: "tom p." ; "Pete Resnick" Cc: ; ; Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 5:54 PM Tom/Pete, We believe this version of the draft addresses your comments. Thanks. > On Apr 23, 2018, at 9:48 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. > > Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model > Authors : Ruth Civil > Al Morton > Reshad Rahman > Mahesh Jethanandani > Kostas Pentikousis > Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt > Pages : 68 > Date : 2018-04-23 > > Abstract: > This document specifies a data model for client and server > implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). > The document defines the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling > Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specifies it using YANG. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Wed Apr 25 13:56:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718B612D80E; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:56:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Montville To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.79.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152468976242.23320.3891636367160271859@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:56:02 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:56:02 -0000 Reviewer: Adam Montville Review result: Ready I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. The summary of the review is: Ready; the Security Considerations cover in-transit protections well enough, and recommends controlling access to writable nodes. One suggestion I have is that the security considerations could do a better job drawing a straight line between "a number of nodes...which are writeable" and the "Examples of notes that are particularly vulnerable..." The example is simply, "...several timeout values put in the protocol to protect against sessions that are not active but are consuming resources." This would suggest that controlling access to writable timeout values would mitigate denial of service, which could be beneficial to state explicitly. Are all of the other writable nodes of the same character, or would some lead to, for example, privilege escalation? In other words, while doing so is probably not strictly necessary for the success of the draft, making the security issues as clear as possible for at least each category of writable node seems like a good idea to help those who may not otherwise be aware. 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[ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-2330-ipv6-04 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:28:50 -0000 VGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIHJldmlldyBhbmQgRWRpdG9yaWFsIENvbW1lbnRzLCBGcmFuY2VzY2Eu DQoNClBsZWFzZSBzZWUgcmVwbGllcyBpbi1saW5lLCBbYWNtXQ0KQWwNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdp bmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBGcmFuY2VzY2EgUGFsb21iaW5pIFttYWlsdG86ZnJh bmNlc2NhLnBhbG9tYmluaUBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb21dDQo+IFNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgQXByaWwgMjMs IDIwMTggNjo0NSBBTQ0KPiBUbzogZ2VuLWFydEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBDYzogaXBwbUBpZXRmLm9y ZzsgaWV0ZkBpZXRmLm9yZzsgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1pcHBtLTIzMzAtaXB2Ni5hbGxAaWV0Zi5vcmcN Cj4gU3ViamVjdDogR2VuYXJ0IGxhc3QgY2FsbCByZXZpZXcgb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1pcHBtLTIz MzAtaXB2Ni0wNA0KPiANCj4gUmV2aWV3ZXI6IEZyYW5jZXNjYSBQYWxvbWJpbmkNCj4gUmV2aWV3 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IHRoZWlyDQo+IHRpbWUuDQo+IA0KDQpJJ20gc3VyZSB0aGV5IGFyZSA6KSBKdXN0IHJlbGF5aW5n IHdoYXQgdGhlIGlkLW5pdHMgdG9sZCBtZS4NCg== From nobody Fri Apr 27 04:55:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B8A127286; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 04:55:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Victor Kuarsingh To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org, ops-dir@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.79.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152483013257.6031.2465152181290753383@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 04:55:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:55:33 -0000 Reviewer: Victor Kuarsingh Review result: Ready Dear Authors, I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. Document Reviewed - Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data Model Link to Document - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 Status: Ready for publication Summary: This document specifies a data model for client and server implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement protocol (TWAMP). The document describes and covers the scope and applicability, data model overview and detailed description of the data model. General Comments and Feedback: The document as reviewed is well written had has undergone considerable review. No additional items were seen in this review beyond those already address in previous reviews (and versions) from genart and secdir. No other comments and/or recommendations are made as part of this review focused on operational considerations. regards, Victor Kuarsingh From nobody Sun Apr 29 11:30:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 041DD1242F7; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:30:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRazjcZ83H-p; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x236.google.com (mail-pf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E12591200B9; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id v63so5065947pfk.8; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:30:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=K1EVB/SRgppGMr7HO/jdCihesK3EoslUWRRo0J2zji4=; b=Zd32h8rKNBY+ldWDtNoduduPJOXl7gFc42ItJQ8Iq21nLNpxDTt8RBmMHA01JM8Lq3 UNcKRF31nr090/IklCDIsGgzlOKC47DZaHINFQT4z7j0sbg6bNCMaseB7kgh/Ja1m/QQ NuQOi/ln0ij1woLb1C/8hnNrQvSy3qBSPp10agTpmx53dh3QQFtdLz11xldYZF2p4izN q9PINAQyoUBeevQlq0wlQ4dyesMx/0XBb+LU5a9bTVxIDJlo4HEsLdVELzc2woXCC1s9 y6aCgG9bsc0x8sDim/z6Qo8Ahgq5i2gCspiFLpbtWrQql7HpPV5M+oQureajvQY46iHR kyJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=K1EVB/SRgppGMr7HO/jdCihesK3EoslUWRRo0J2zji4=; b=tz1Mmrmz3LIoPfXDL8bp+lUBg1JJoPDBS6Hvxw6CRgWEGfyNXzPWzHloXCg/xc9C91 e6kAu0HAF7UfsGuCcMJHL/4/53dnInbILpZhyW4d305C7epTZ/7bgoyW6/8A2gSLNc2d juioIUkyNzEgghDnHragRc26ovs74NfOyXFxz3h2mEGvJfyjNE25GDsie6V9eCIS+Azu 4j4CxNjoItcEkVrYh+hvRXyv4jKaSIHmXl8szzY28confNvNad8YkJz3G4DZeVIYrpzu hYzmsgTNfb6ltnbq5lQdUIJUEnoeOoWAb87hUWUhOJ9NqCsxDpNfrdRYg09mhzJ0BeKz z96w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAIDyQQTrXO4HqoMGrMZfTGwP+asMGikc25PCOnb8BF93ytdF6w CCSl7WS2peXSrzvaNJwAxCo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZrVCcZE9sCxcWQYlVkGupaCFlHQaHwdBuGzb+x0XirPp+2RpnNKcWyM8MtRuPvgLprzJun6pw== X-Received: by 10.98.73.215 with SMTP id r84mr8022452pfi.146.1525026643035; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:91cb:6619:9683:6f0? ([2601:647:4700:1280:91cb:6619:9683:6f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 70-v6sm9351699pgd.75.2018.04.29.11.30.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <152483013257.6031.2465152181290753383@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:30:41 -0700 Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <152483013257.6031.2465152181290753383@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Victor Kuarsingh X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [OPS-DIR] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:30:46 -0000 Victor, Thank you for your review. > On Apr 27, 2018, at 4:55 AM, Victor Kuarsingh = wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Victor Kuarsingh > Review result: Ready >=20 > Dear Authors, >=20 > I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's = ongoing > effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. = These > comments were written with the intent of improving the operational = aspects of > the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be = included > in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs = should > treat these comments just like any other last call comments. >=20 > Document Reviewed - Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) Data = Model > Link to Document - = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >=20 > Status: Ready for publication >=20 > Summary: >=20 > This document specifies a data model for client and server = implementations of > the Two-Way Active Measurement protocol (TWAMP). >=20 > The document describes and covers the scope and applicability, data = model > overview and detailed description of the data model. >=20 > General Comments and Feedback: >=20 > The document as reviewed is well written had has undergone = considerable review. > No additional items were seen in this review beyond those already = address in > previous reviews (and versions) from genart and secdir. >=20 > No other comments and/or recommendations are made as part of this = review > focused on operational considerations. >=20 > regards, >=20 > Victor Kuarsingh >=20 > _______________________________________________ > OPS-DIR mailing list > OPS-DIR@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ops-dir Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Sun Apr 29 12:37:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBFE126D45; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rRCvFMFOpxnZ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22a.google.com (mail-pf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD7E8126BF6; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v63so5127958pfk.8; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=uDpEeHGQeBo1fgHaY9Upxo91jNTBzuSfv8NS3wIKPL0=; b=BgzxarL7s7+cr5GXxkTHPlhrUSSI4FfYsxAVypy5dhHncaagtFOguy17lyvUO7rGBA PctnSQL7Kxy4BdB+RjrIEpIruucbs8bVsrclYnubeDQy2k3o0Z3VZRZ5VsFN8zwYnVTQ EYrr1/5nzqJHjg7czF4LGF7ijWlVK9G5Y+/czzS4nRenl175IJZ3ozZ5u0oUhTOyYRB+ 4CBRoKqQPVqPMR3+v0akRUhKHsn40Z6pdHSaTOTHrgPUndb6zYFdoKd6s1SgOairrJrV dV4OG3HyuHYjtzUpv1FAiR6iBo97F1672stMIJVornTGDtClZkUlix2A7C8xLiaSIa0O v0wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=uDpEeHGQeBo1fgHaY9Upxo91jNTBzuSfv8NS3wIKPL0=; b=RlmHJjNQ+WBW0lSQU7v/Nz9TbXIXBt7zi6tRBUCttomw4kro+Jjxpwx5WZTrKwe5Cn DVQWzG35WQYOEIfTUoNAZpVKimv78YbSR+K1j3+BEDYt8NN2tKiP91IZgCuOpMEjI0VP 4rNQSTtutReEXQrjOhAFsMhuxGXTu/9IWCrgs6lxc9elmiP3U3u8PXpaZamWs7gq+w3s 1miGoc54BTFdu5db6B4S16digBuNbfklhQriuiYYztUF8NYwXcMb15WRCerrtDDPvY+5 rEaocE0HybWyO+TncmL9dXWvrZqfdxMtRqjpdr8hwCd3gIZmOqfkTWPgdWNl+nXDE6la NUKw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tA8yOIUP59Zmobd3u+tW3hnzmrx/ilrNV/dx+gQGhWynE4ARV7F mU6pYKRKMNhW2r118UIYg4s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqpyTk1jh2mVHUfnfYR+628QNcSONvqjD0/9zrTjBXFqtvQtmTsHTqlLIpvJKlOob9Fflup7w== X-Received: by 10.98.88.65 with SMTP id m62mr1365925pfb.116.1525030649176; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:91cb:6619:9683:6f0? ([2601:647:4700:1280:91cb:6619:9683:6f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a23sm10769992pfi.176.2018.04.29.12.37.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7F0C69C0-A784-4D0F-A8DB-42222BAB00F3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <152468976242.23320.3891636367160271859@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: secdir@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang.all@ietf.org To: Adam Montville References: <152468976242.23320.3891636367160271859@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-08 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:37:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7F0C69C0-A784-4D0F-A8DB-42222BAB00F3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Adam, See comments below. > On Apr 25, 2018, at 1:56 PM, Adam Montville = wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Adam Montville > Review result: Ready >=20 > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's = ongoing > effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. = These > comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area = directors. > Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like = any other > last call comments. >=20 > The summary of the review is: Ready; the Security Considerations cover > in-transit protections well enough, and recommends controlling access = to > writable nodes. >=20 > One suggestion I have is that the security considerations could do a = better job > drawing a straight line between "a number of nodes...which are = writeable" and > the "Examples of notes that are particularly vulnerable..." The = example is > simply, "...several timeout values put in the protocol to protect = against > sessions that are not active but are consuming resources." This would = suggest > that controlling access to writable timeout values would mitigate = denial of > service, which could be beneficial to state explicitly. How about this? OLD: Examples of nodes that are particularly vulnerable include several timeout values put in the protocol to protect against sessions that are not active but are consuming resources. NEW: Examples of nodes that are particularly vulnerable include several timeout values put in the protocol to protect against sessions that are not active but are consuming resources. Limiting access to these nodes will limit the ability to launch an attack in network=20 environments. > Are all of the other > writable nodes of the same character, or would some lead to, for = example, > privilege escalation? In other words, while doing so is probably not = strictly > necessary for the success of the draft, making the security issues as = clear as > possible for at least each category of writable node seems like a good = idea to > help those who may not otherwise be aware. Writing to other writable nodes is probably not as harmful as the = timeout value. So while we consider all writeable nodes as vulnerable, = we consider timeout value particularly vulnerable, for the reasons = stated above. Cheers. >=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_7F0C69C0-A784-4D0F-A8DB-42222BAB00F3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Adam,

See = comments below.

On Apr 25, 2018, at 1:56 PM, = Adam Montville <adam.w.montville@gmail.com> wrote:

Reviewer: Adam Montville
Review result: = Ready

I have reviewed this document as part = of the security directorate's ongoing
effort to review all = IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written primarily for the benefit of the = security area directors.
Document editors and WG chairs = should treat these comments just like any other
last call = comments.

The summary of the review is: = Ready; the Security Considerations cover
in-transit = protections well enough, and recommends controlling access to
writable nodes.

One suggestion I = have is that the security considerations could do a better job
drawing a straight line between "a number of nodes...which = are writeable" and
the "Examples of notes that are = particularly vulnerable..." The example is
simply, = "...several timeout values put in the protocol to protect against
sessions that are not active but are consuming resources." = This would suggest
that controlling access to writable = timeout values would mitigate denial of
service, which = could be beneficial to state explicitly. =

How about = this?

OLD:
   Examples of nodes that are particularly =
vulnerable include several
   timeout values put in the protocol to protect against sessions that
   are not active but are consuming resources.


NEW:
   Examples of nodes that are particularly =
vulnerable include several
   timeout values put in the protocol to protect against sessions that
   are not active but are consuming resources. Limiting access to =
these
   nodes will =
limit the ability to launch an attack in network 
   environments.


Are all of the other
writable nodes of the same character, or would some lead to, = for example,
privilege escalation? In other words, while = doing so is probably not strictly
necessary for the = success of the draft, making the security issues as clear as
possible for at least each category of writable node seems = like a good idea to
help those who may not otherwise be = aware.

Writing to other writable nodes is probably = not as harmful as the timeout value. So while we consider all writeable = nodes as vulnerable, we consider timeout value particularly vulnerable, = for the reasons stated above.

Cheers.



Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

= --Apple-Mail=_7F0C69C0-A784-4D0F-A8DB-42222BAB00F3-- From nobody Sun Apr 29 12:38:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 749BB12D810; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNn_FnAYsOES; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22f.google.com (mail-pf0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2508B12D7F7; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id a11so5123119pfn.9; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0LowbSPPLgDbV/GZmK7oKB3XN8+XcYDDHeAgiEgaut8=; b=A1zLWnFFIZ9g9i/NX7K4wr7ix5U4QV0vtimeuxDlVtwuapY9RqqwkCXxa7PtHMYGlc P4IEp1bAQ9GmLHdIjaZkIBviCEmprAi+BbOpNcH+JmLUK6sNuSPoMKwYezS8aWKL7FVd CmbSY/KMW0/OCJZrF5Pc+whGt59lZXFFaptet70dKH9uLDQ/UAQjy2kS/wW7ethRCFy6 +WDVX6q2gesDAqio/Ox/mnbRyXOswNxGgY0Kjm7fky7nPzzOp3RFkG4mDmTZl30v7ud8 IkAJzlge0VtLgkLEIP68uxlrhghgJXAUXLPs6TAINOk/lsf43AQAtpI5hkQTzfCbQ7y1 Dsqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=0LowbSPPLgDbV/GZmK7oKB3XN8+XcYDDHeAgiEgaut8=; b=R26xc95gUqSS6BL/1UoxyyU8PEYqsu4FrPmLYXklNvd5AVtHwp2Vb5mPWpT6l2LctD WC8BRGqxF3QyQw+bmVennePJRJ2irZR1WewP9Ogt/+729DzdAufv6sl22nsqE2SJTD/q 5XJ1LNvdbI7yft2BmkbJlvlQd/oHMNWPdtD88HwS+JS4GRxqlAxpLO0/3CfeQueWGc5g IrV9NLQShF0HC87gFlF1Ve/O8MVnechN/kzLfy0EBm7WvmEq0ng28w0rQXoVy0UUtYBz NnW9+icPd8U9PfRwBUht7Pg8vjYv/Bv/AaYT6CcLHS5HmVxINT33+Idyt1eqxNoPQl+5 cGSw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBv/heL9TifSs947usn/hutCOx7PaEyOYyTG8wZBt+oIy9D0i2W P3qXQMWomkwZlAsdhwE82Vg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZrsy4CLD2bTdItFVoKPIab/f8j4dAlgSY5zjWwevK4I2EdOdMM2c/xUDjM/KKA1jlsmHrkpAg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:6807:: with SMTP id d7-v6mr8208724pgc.332.1525030666654; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4700:1280:91cb:6619:9683:6f0? ([2601:647:4700:1280:91cb:6619:9683:6f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a23sm10769992pfi.176.2018.04.29.12.37.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <01da01d3dbb6$0030b800$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 12:37:44 -0700 Cc: Pete Resnick , ippm@ietf.org, gen-art@ietf.org, ietf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1AE83A38-059E-498D-BE25-4801BC202EDD@gmail.com> References: <152450209311.21874.12317789046221633@ietfa.amsl.com> <48C50081-B879-4A83-B8F6-A4562756C2DA@gmail.com> <01da01d3dbb6$0030b800$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> To: "tom p." X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:38:14 -0000 > On Apr 24, 2018, at 3:21 AM, tom p. wrote: > > Mahesh > > Almost > > You ask the RFC Editor to > "replace reference to RFC XXXX, and draft-ietf-port-twamp-test " > > I think that you mean > draft-ietf-ippm-port-twamp-test Fixed. > > I said that I was still thinking about secret-key and still am; I am > unsure what secret-key should look like. > > There are two rival models for keystore. RTGWG have produced RFC8177 > which has > > choice key-string-style { > ... > case keystring { > .. > type string; > description "Key string in ASCII format."; > > case hexadecimal { > .. > type yang:hex-string; > description "Key in hexadecimal string format. > > > The NETCONF WG have produced a number of I-D, such as > draft-ietf-netconf-keystore, all of which have keys of type binary. > > A YANG string, as this I-D currently references, limits the character > set of string which I do not think works without a binary or hex-string > alternative. > > I note that > draft-mirsky-ippm-twamp-light-yang > went for a keychain-ref while > > draft-ietf-ospf-yang > has > case auth-trailer-key { > ... > type string; > description "Key string in ASCII format."; > without a hexadecimal alterntive which would seem to have limited > entropy. > > Perhaps binary, as you had it originally, is best but I do think that > the IETF is confused, or conflicted, here. I am reverting it back to binary. > > Tom Petch > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mahesh Jethanandani" > To: "tom p." ; "Pete Resnick" > > Cc: ; ; > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 5:54 PM > > Tom/Pete, > > We believe this version of the draft addresses your comments. > > Thanks. > >> On Apr 23, 2018, at 9:48 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. >> This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the > IETF. >> >> Title : Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) > Data Model >> Authors : Ruth Civil >> Al Morton >> Reshad Rahman >> Mahesh Jethanandani >> Kostas Pentikousis >> Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09.txt >> Pages : 68 >> Date : 2018-04-23 >> >> Abstract: >> This document specifies a data model for client and server >> implementations of the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). >> The document defines the TWAMP data model through Unified Modeling >> Language (UML) class diagrams and formally specifies it using YANG. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-09 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com > Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Mon Apr 30 00:25:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B6D12D87E; 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Mon, 30 Apr 2018 00:25:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.143.195 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 00:25:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:25:29 +0300 Message-ID: To: draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark@ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b48c2056b0bc252" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Comments about draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-02 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:25:36 -0000 --0000000000002b48c2056b0bc252 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Giuseppe et al., I reviewed the draft, and I believe it is a valuable and timely draft that should be pursued by the IPPM working group. A few comments: =C2=B7 =E2=80=9Cby considering n measurement points and n monitored= flows=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 it would be more general to consider a case where the number of MPs differs from the number of flows. =C2=B7 =E2=80=9Cintermediate measurement points have only the task = to split the measurement.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 please clarify this point. =C2=B7 =E2=80=9CPL =3D (PI1 + PI2 +...+ PIn) - (PO1 + PO2 +...+ POm= )=E2=80=9D Please clarify that this equation is applied on a per-time-interval basis. =C2=B7 =E2=80=9CAlgorithm for Cluster partition=E2=80=9D I could not understand the algorithm. Perhaps it would be helpful to write a few lines of pseudo-code to define the algorithm. =C2=B7 =E2=80=9CDelay and delay variation measurements relative to = a picked packet (both single and double marked) cannot be performed in the Multipoint scenario=E2=80=9D I believe this sentence is not accurate. I believe it would be more accurate to say that: (1) Single marking based on the first packet of the interval would not work, because it would not be possible to agree on the first packet of the interval. (2) Double marking or multiplexed marking would work, **but** each measurement would only give information about the delay of a single path. However, by repeating the measurement multiple times, you could get information about all the paths in the multipoint flow (the mean delay approach of section 4.4.2. uses the same principle, i.e., by considering a large number of packets, we get information about the different paths). =C2=B7 Section 4.4.3: please clarify why hash-based selection is different than double marking in the multipoint context. It seems that the basic hash is **logically** similar to the double marking method, right? In both cases each measurement is applicable to a single path. Indeed, the dynamic approach scales the number of measurements per interval, but it would seem that double marking would also work well if we reduced the interval length, right? Cheers, Tal. --0000000000002b48c2056b0bc252 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Giuseppe et al.,

=C2=A0

I reviewed the draft, and I believe it is a val= uable and timely draft that should be pursued by the IPPM working group.=

=C2=A0

A few comments:

=C2=A0

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cby considering n mea= surement points and n monitored flows=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 it would be more general to= consider a case where the number of MPs differs from the number of flows.

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cintermediate measure= ment points have only the task to split the measurement.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 plea= se clarify this point.

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CPL =3D (PI1 + PI2 +.= ..+ PIn) - (PO1 + PO2 +...+ POm)=E2=80=9D
Please clarify that this equation is applied on a per-time-interval basis.<= span>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CAlgorithm for Cluste= r partition=E2=80=9D
I could not understand the algorithm. Perhaps it would be helpful to write = a few lines of pseudo-code to define the algorithm.

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CDelay and delay vari= ation measurements relative to a picked packet (both single and double marked) ca= nnot be performed in the Multipoint scenario=E2=80=9D
I believe this sentence is not accurate. I believe it would be more accurat= e to say that: (1) Single marking based on the first packet of the interval woul= d not work, because it would not be possible to agree on the first packet of = the interval. (2) Double marking or multiplexed marking would work, *but= * each measurement would only give information about the delay of a single pa= th. However, by repeating the measurement multiple times, you could get informa= tion about all the paths in the multipoint flow (the mean delay approach of sect= ion 4.4.2. uses the same principle, i.e., by considering a large number of pack= ets, we get information about the different paths).

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Section 4.4.3: please clarify why hash-based selection is different than double marking in the multipoint context. It seems that the basic hash is *logically* simi= lar to the double marking method, right? In both cases each measurement is appl= icable to a single path.
Indeed, the dynamic approach scales the number of measurements per interval= , but it would seem that double marking would also work well if we reduced th= e interval length, right?


Cheers,
Tal.
--0000000000002b48c2056b0bc252-- From nobody Mon Apr 30 05:33:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A0712D9FE; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:33:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSD80O15mw_S; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx01.telecomitalia.it (mx01.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80FC612D960; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 05:33:49 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a9790a-3a7ff70000007060-c0-5ae70d2b3615 Received: from TELMBXA02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.26]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx01.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 3C.70.28768.B2D07EA5; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 14:33:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: Tal Mizrahi , IETF IPPM WG CC: "draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments about draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-02 Thread-Index: AQHT4FRw+od5fkwzFkGnQaZSFQZYnaQZPkyA Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:33:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.247] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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