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From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
To: <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,
	"'Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)'" <bwijnen@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: RE: [Isms] my review of: draft-ietf-isms-secshell-08.txt
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:48:08 -0500
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder 
> [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de] 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 3:43 AM
> To: Wijnen, Bert (Bert)
> Cc: David Harrington; jsalowey@cisco.com; isms@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Isms] my review of: draft-ietf-isms-secshell-08.txt
> 
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 12:17:13PM +0200, Wijnen, Bert (Bert) wrote:
> > 
> > Some of these are NITs, I know that.
> > 
> > - I think the abstract should also mention that there is a 
> MIB module
> >   defined in this document.
> > 
> > - I think the last para of sect 1.2 can/should be removed, 
> or at least
> > the
> >   RFC-Editor should be instructed to do so.
> 
> editorial

done.

>  
> > - Sect 1.4
> > 
> >       The work will address ...
> > 
> >       The work will include ...
> > 
> >   Maybe better: This document addresses ...
> >                 This document includes/defines ...
> 
> editorial

done.
> 
> > - sect 5.1 and 5.1
> >   I assume that SSH_MSG_USERAUTH_REQUEST and SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_DATA
> >   are specified somewhere in the SSH RFC(s)? Maybe a citation to
> >   such RFC(s) is useful at these points.
> 
> there were suggestions in the discussion to actually be less precise
> concerning SNMP messages and this seems to solve this issue

removed references to CHANNEL_DATA. 
I tried to make it clear that how one gets username from the SSH
environment is implementation-dependent.

> 
> > - top of page 15:
> >       45 Extract any implementation-specific parameters from the
LCD
> >       6) Pass the wholeMessage to SSH for encapsulation in an
> >       SSH_MSG_CHANNEL_DATA message.
> > 
> >   what is "45"? Should that be "5)"
> >   But the whole first sentence seems to not belong here?
> 
> editorial

It should be 5).

bullet 4 is conditional; bullet 5 is not. It belongs here so info is
extracted from the LCD whether bullet 4 is triggered or not.
Implementatins are free to optimize this.

> 
> > - Should we root this MIB module under snmpModules? 

rooted under mib-2

> >   see my arguments in my review of the MIB module in
> >   draft-ietf-isms-transport-security-model-05.txt
> > 
> >   If we do keep it under snmpModules, then 
> >     sshtmMIB MODULE-IDENTITY
> >   possibly would be better
> >     snmpSshtmMIB MODULE-IDENTITY
> >   to be consistent with the other MIB modules under snmpModules.
> >
> > - Copyright in MIB module should be IETF Trust, not ISOC

fixeed.

> > 
> > - I see:
> >   sshtmGroups OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= { sshtmConformance 1 }
> >   sshtmCompliances OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= { sshtmConformance 2 }
> > 
> >   while RFC4181 suggests:
> > 
> >      xxxMIB
> >      |
> >      +-- xxxNotifications(0)
> >      +-- xxxObjects(1)
> >      +-- xxxConformance(2)
> >          |
> >          +-- xxxCompliances(1)
> >          +-- xxxGroups(2)
> > 
> >   i.e. first compliances, then groups.
> 
> This needs to be dealt with according the resolution we achieve for
> the TMS document.

fixed. consistently.

>  
> > - For SnmpSSHAddress ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION I read:
> > 
> >         "Represents either a hostname encoded in ASCII
> >         using the IDNA protocol, as specified in RFC3490, 
> followed by
> >         a colon ':' (ASCII character 0x3A) and a decimal port
number
> >         in ASCII, or an IP address followed by a colon ':'
> >         (ASCII character 0x3A) and a decimal port number in ASCII.
> >          The name SHOULD be fully qualified whenever possible.
> > 
> >   I am not well versed/experienced in IDNA. But is IDNA a
protocol?
> >   The title of 3490 reads
> >       Internationalizing Domain Names in Applications (IDNA)
> >   And are we indeed speaking of a hostname, or of a domain name,
or
> >   of both? I can't quickly determine that. So I wonder if/hope
that
> >   we can be clearer here.
> 
> Seems to have been resolved in the discussion.

text will hopefully respresent conensus.

> 
> >   I also assume (although this is not explicitly stated) that if
we
> >   speak about an IP address, that it is a dotted decimal for
> >   IPv4 and and a colon separated IPv6 address in ASCII? Yes/no?
> > 
> >   I am concerned that for 
> >      SnmpUDPAddress ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION
> >          DISPLAY-HINT "1d.1d.1d.1d/2d"
> >   we use a / sign to separate the port from the IPv4 address
> >   and here we use a colon (:).
> >   I must admit that (RFC3419) also uses :
> >       TransportAddressIPv4 ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION
> >           DISPLAY-HINT "1d.1d.1d.1d:2d"
> > 
> >   And what do we use for IPv6 addresses/ports?
> 
> The SnmpUDPAddress notation goes back to the old days where a common
> notation for transport endpoints did not exist yet. Nowadays, it is
> common to read a.b.c.d/e as a prefix and a.b.c.d:e as an IPv4
> transport endpoint and [::]:e as an IPv6 transport endpoint. There
is
> an RFC specifying this IPv6 notion and we might just refer to it; I
> think the latest document is RFC 3986 which obsoletes RFC 2732. Note
> that also RFC 3419 uses the now more common notation and breaks with
> the old SnmpUDPAddress notation.

fixed. included a REFERENCE clause for RFC3986

> 
> >   Further I read:
> > 
> >          When this textual convention is used as a syntax of an
> >          index object, there may be issues with the limit of 128
> >          sub-identifiers specified in SMIv2, STD 58. In this case,
> >          the OBJECT-TYPE declaration MUST include a 'SIZE' clause
> >          to limit the number of potential instance
sub-identifiers."
> > 
> >   Mmm.. we do not normally enforce (i.e. MUST language) that a
SIZE
> >   clause must be used. We allo the DESCIRPTION clause to explain
> >   that implementers must be aware and cater for OID limitations.
> >   So do we really want that MUST language here?
> 
> I think this text was copied from RFC 3419 which actually has MUST
> language. RFC 4181 only RECOMMENDS to MIB documents are explicit by
> either including SIZE constraints or specifying things in the row
> DESCRIPTION clause. Since RFC 4181 is newer than RFC 3419, I suggest
> that we adopt RFC 4181 language here.

fixed.
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> 



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From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
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References: <010801c80125$20960720$6502a8c0@china.huawei.com>
	<00a201c801f1$20c6ba60$0601a8c0@pc6>
Subject: RE: [Isms] SnmpSSHAddress 
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:07:17 -0500
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Juergen mentioned RFC3986, which does deal with ports.
I used that RFC.

dbh
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tom.petch [mailto:cfinss@dial.pipex.com] 
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:57 PM
> To: David Harrington; isms@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Isms] SnmpSSHAddress 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
> To: <isms@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 6:40 PM
> Subject: [Isms] SnmpSSHAddress
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > Bert and Jeff raised questions about the format for IPv4/IPv6
> > addresses and hostnames. Is the following acceptable?
> >
> > Is there an RFC that describes the textual representation of an
IPv6
> > address?
> 
> RFC4291 s2.2
> 
> The ABNF for this is somewhere unexpected (which I will stumble
across
> sometime).
> 
> But note that this section does not cover the interface 
> number, which has
> provoked discussion on URI because of the use of  the percent 
> character, nor the
> port number
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> >
> > Bert pointed out that MIB addresses have been inconsistent 
> - some use
> > '/' to separate the port nunber and others use ':'. Jeff pointed
out
> > that using a colon makes it difficult to determine where an IPv6
> > address ends and the port starts. Maybe we should use the ':'
> > separator for the hostname format, and the '/' separator for the
IP
> > address formats to eliminate the ambiguity. RFC4181 has no 
> guidance on
> > this point; are there other documents that provide guidance on the
> > separator character for hostnames and/or IP adddresses?
> >
> > SnmpSSHAddress ::= TEXTUAL-CONVENTION
> >     DISPLAY-HINT "1a"
> >     STATUS      current
> >     DESCRIPTION
> >         "Represents either a hostname with a port number or an IP
> >          address with a port number.
> >
> >          The hostname must be encoded in ASCII, as specified in
> >          RFC3490 (Internationalizing Domain Names in Applications)
> >          followed by a colon ':' (ASCII character 0x3A) and a
> >          decimal port number in ASCII. The name SHOULD be fully
> >          qualified whenever possible.
> >
> >          An IPv4 address must be a dotted decimal format followed
> >          by a colon ':' (ASCII character 0x3A) and a decimal port
> >          number in ASCII.
> >
> >          An IPv6 address must be a colon separated format,
> >          surrounded by brackets, followed by a colon ':' (ASCII
> >          character 0x3A) and a decimal port number in ASCII.
> >
> >          Values of this textual convention may not be 
> directly useable
> >          as transport-layer addressing information, and may
require
> >          runtime resolution. As such, applications that write them
> >          must be prepared for handling errors if such values are
> >          not supported, or cannot be resolved (if resolution
occurs
> >          at the time of the management operation).
> >
> >          The DESCRIPTION clause of TransportAddress objects that
may
> >          have snmpSSHAddress values must fully describe how (and
> >          when) such names are to be resolved to IP 
> addresses and vice
> >          versa.
> >
> >          This textual convention SHOULD NOT be used directly in
> >          object definitions since it restricts addresses to a
> >          specific format. However, if it is used, it MAY be used
> >          either on its own or in conjunction with
> >          TransportAddressType or TransportDomain as a pair.
> >
> >          When this textual convention is used as a syntax of an
> >          index object, there may be issues with the limit of 128
> >          sub-identifiers specified in SMIv2, STD 58. In this case,
> >          the OBJECT-TYPE declaration MUST include a 'SIZE' clause
> >          to limit the number of potential instance
sub-identifiers."
> >     SYNTAX      OCTET STRING (SIZE (1..255))
> >
> > David Harrington
> > dbharrington@comcast.net
> > ietfdbh@comcast.net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Isms mailing list
> > Isms@lists.ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isms
> 
> 



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From: "David Harrington" <ietfdbh@comcast.net>
To: <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,
	<isms@ietf.org>
References: <20070918160505.GB22768@elstar.local>
Subject: RE: [Isms] properly closing an ssh session
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:15:24 -0500
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Hi,

I see no record of a reply to this question, so the secshell document
does not deal with this.

dbh 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder 
> [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de] 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 12:05 PM
> To: isms@ietf.org
> Subject: [Isms] properly closing an ssh session
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have a question for SSH experts (hope there are some on this
list).
> I am wondering what the proper way of closing the SSH session is in
> our case. Note that we run a single SSH channel over the SSH
transport
> and there are several options now.
> 
> a) Be brutal and simply close the underlying TCP connection.
> 
> b) Be a bit less brutal and send an SSH_DISCONNECT with say a
>    reason code of SSH_DISCONNECT_BY_APPLICATION and be done.
> 
> c) Be friendly and play the game of doing an SSH_CHANNEL_CLOSE
>    exchange followed by SSH_DISCONNECT.
> 
> d) Be overly friendly by exchanging SSH_CHANNEL_EOF before
>    exchanging SSH_CHANNEL_CLOSE and doing an SSH_DISCONNECT.
> 
> My reading of the RFCs indicates that d) is not really required and
of
> course a) will always work. There might be reasons to do b) although
> it is not clear which benefit one would get (since my understanding
is
> that SSH_DISCONNECT does not impact who is closing the TCP
connection
> and who has to go into wait state).
> 
> Any suggestions what should be done to play the SSH game nicely?
> 
> /js
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Isms mailing list
> Isms@lists.ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isms
> 



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A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-isms-secshell-09.txt has been successfuly submitted by David Harrington and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-ietf-isms-secshell
Revision:	 09
Title:		 Secure Shell Transport Model for SNMP
Creation_date:	 2007-11-08
WG ID:		 isms
Number_of_pages: 37

Abstract:
This memo describes a Transport Model for the Simple Network
Management Protocol, using the Secure Shell protocol (SSH).

This memo also defines a portion of the Management Information Base
(MIB) for use with network management protocols in TCP/IP based
internets.  In particular it defines objects for monitoring and
managing the Secure Shell Transport Model for SNMP.
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Integrated Security Model for SNMP Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Secure Shell Transport Model for SNMP
	Author(s)       : D. Harrington, J. Salowey
	Filename        : draft-ietf-isms-secshell-09.txt
	Pages           : 37
	Date            : 2007-11-08

This memo describes a Transport Model for the Simple Network
Management Protocol, using the Secure Shell protocol (SSH).

This memo also defines a portion of the Management Information Base
(MIB) for use with network management protocols in TCP/IP based
internets.  In particular it defines objects for monitoring and
managing the Secure Shell Transport Model for SNMP.

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From isms-bounces@lists.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 16:48:14 2007
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "David B. Nelson" <dnelson@elbrysnetworks.com>
Subject: Re: [Isms] Request for review of Remote Authentication Dial-In
	User Service (RADIUS) Usage for Simple Network Management Protocol
	(SNMP) Transport Models
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On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 06:11:21PM -0400, David B. Nelson wrote:
 
> Following up on my previous post, I'd like to get active review of the ISMS
> RADIUS Usage document
> (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-isms-radius-usage-00.txt),
> even if we are not ready to formally call for WGLC.

Here is my review of draft-ietf-isms-radius-usage-00.txt.

In general, the document seems fine; my comments are mostly
editorial.  Note that I have some comments concerning the
definitions in [radman] that I will post to the radext mailing
list and the resolution might affect this document.

While reading the ID, I had the feeling there is some repetition
and redundancy in the document but then I am probably too much
involved in this to judge readability from the point of a casual
reader.

a) p4: s/small a sub-set/a small sub-set/

b) p5: the following text perhaps can be simplified

   OLD

   Secure transport protocols used with SNMP Transport Models have
   defined authentication protocols that allows for authentication by
   various methods.  For example, the Secure Shell (SSH) Authentication
   protocol [RFC4252] describes an authentication protocol and support
   multiple methods that can be used SSH servers to authenticate the SSH
   client, these methods include Public Key, Password and Host
   (e.g.hosts.equiv).

   NEW

   Some secure transport protocols that can be used with SNMP
   Transport Models have defined authentication protocols
   supporting several authentication methods.  For example, the
   Secure Shell (SSH) Authentication protocol [RFC4252] supports
   multiple methods (Public Key, Password, Host-Based) to
   authenticate SSH clients.

c) p6: some suggested rewording

   OLD

   There are three ways in which RADIUS may be used to inform the use of
   SNMP Transport Models.

   NEW

   There are three ways in which RADIUS may be used by SNMP
   Transport Models.

d) p6: s/a authenticated/an authenticated/

e) p6: s/deployed models/deployed security models/

f) p6: s/the ACM uses/the ACS uses/

g) p6: s/Access Control Method/Access Control Model/

h) p7: s/they type/the type/

i) p8: s/be optionally be used,/be optionally used/

j) p9: you might add an informative reference to VACM in section 2.4

k) p11: s/Dave/David/

l) p11: reference [RFC4252] is incomplete

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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Juergen Schoenwaelder writes...
 
> Here is my review of draft-ietf-isms-radius-usage-00.txt.

Thanks!

> In general, the document seems fine; my comments are mostly
> editorial.  Note that I have some comments concerning the
> definitions in [radman] that I will post to the radext mailing
> list and the resolution might affect this document.

Note that the RADEXT WGLC on [radman] formally closed on October 19.  One
review was received last week.  We haven't issued a revised draft yet, so
comments are still welcome.  It would be appreciated if you could find time
to send in those comments this week.
 
> While reading the ID, I had the feeling there is some repetition
> and redundancy in the document but then I am probably too much
> involved in this to judge readability from the point of a casual
> reader.

Given the editorial history, I suspect that is correct.  We added
introductory material following the suggestion of Dave Harrington, and that
probably contributed to the repetition problem.  I'll take a fresh look at
the structure, to see if it is easy to reduce redundant text. 

> b) p5: the following text perhaps can be simplified
> 
>    OLD
> 
>    Secure transport protocols used with SNMP Transport Models have
>    defined authentication protocols that allows for authentication by
>    various methods.  For example, the Secure Shell (SSH) Authentication
>    protocol [RFC4252] describes an authentication protocol and support
>    multiple methods that can be used SSH servers to authenticate the SSH
>    client, these methods include Public Key, Password and Host
>    (e.g.hosts.equiv).
> 
>    NEW
> 
>    Some secure transport protocols that can be used with SNMP
>    Transport Models have defined authentication protocols
>    supporting several authentication methods.  For example, the
>    Secure Shell (SSH) Authentication protocol [RFC4252] supports
>    multiple methods (Public Key, Password, Host-Based) to
>    authenticate SSH clients.

Looks good to me.

> c) p6: some suggested rewording
> 
>    OLD
> 
>    There are three ways in which RADIUS may be used to inform the use of
>    SNMP Transport Models.
> 
>    NEW
> 
>    There are three ways in which RADIUS may be used by SNMP
>    Transport Models.

OK.

> j) p9: you might add an informative reference to VACM in section 2.4

OK.




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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Integrated Security Model for SNMP Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Transport Subsystem for the Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP)
	Author(s)       : D. Harrington, J. Schoenwaelder
	Filename        : draft-ietf-isms-tmsm-11.txt
	Pages           : 34
	Date            : 2007-11-18

This document defines a Transport Subsystem, extending the Simple
Network Management Protocol (SNMP) architecture defined in RFC 3411.
This document defines a subsystem to contain Transport Models,
comparable to other subsystems in the RFC3411 architecture.  As work
is being done to expand the transport to include secure transport
such as SSH and TLS, using a subsystem will enable consistent design
and modularity of such Transport Models.  This document identifies
and describes some key aspects that need to be considered for any
Transport Model for SNMP.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Integrated Security Model for SNMP Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Transport Security Model for SNMP
	Author(s)       : D. Harrington
	Filename        : draft-ietf-isms-transport-security-model-07.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2007-11-18

This memo describes a Transport Security Model for the Simple Network
Management Protocol.

This memo also defines a portion of the Management Information Base
(MIB) for use with network management protocols in TCP/IP based
internets.  In particular it defines objects for monitoring and
managing the Transport Security Model for SNMP.

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Integrated Security Model for SNMP Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Remote Authentication Dial-In User Service (RADIUS) Usage for Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP) Transport Models
	Author(s)       : K. Narayan, D. Nelson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-isms-radius-usage-01.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2007-11-19

This memo describes the use of a Remote Authentication Dial-In User
Service (RADIUS) authentication and authorization service by Simple
Network Management Protocol (SNMP) secure Transport Models to
authenticate users and authorize creation of secure transport
sessions.  While the recommendations of this memo are generally
applicable to a broad class of SNMP Transport Models, the examples
focus on the Secure Shell Transport Model.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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