From alison@she-devel.com Thu Aug 1 00:11:43 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D4421F964C for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 00:11:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.938 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.938 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KioJBqGcQaHf for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 00:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f43.google.com (mail-oa0-f43.google.com [209.85.219.43]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B703621F9011 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 00:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id i10so3612039oag.30 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 00:11:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=JrNOSBg3XqmB/8aaYMyzByUG4taei9LIPMSH617Z558=; b=F83HM6nGJyRpCCcQmTIzXmvCGRCZEuAsFKo8voebk461xuAlWMv2vFGBTkWAquWetf WEUTZU0unfYxFYxu59NuG2xdsj4nckwwH/cXXl+Vkq5ofWCUCWIyglfpk2VfL9PIUztL GRanJAtFgHIoMdyzET4OhUnmfXF/h8w/tB4o41J9ejC6HV2XJhBMTE72hLQmye5YhCLY M+GVg5E1Z+4isE+lCebOzyPVL2g7HuQKiQME9lxrbHcXdn1oZfWhMpijKggZ7M0DyhOz rUdicMIVSf+EyLm9H4Lw76W9PJTkdjaHV9A10p7XNhuMlhzX6lO+o9GHy9b7qZ+Pb/f1 L/PQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.11.46 with SMTP id n14mr1088675igb.15.1375341082063; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 00:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.17.73 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 00:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 00:11:21 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc194ea4489704e2dd8c9c X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkrsYCsiN203LKXzVm6uYsFzfjvENENcs9TSZ1rWclRDOTroYUbeCy0BNaR8QEs7L/HamDF Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 07:11:44 -0000 --047d7bdc194ea4489704e2dd8c9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Emmanuel Baccelli > But realistically, nowadays, you rather have to justify why you're *not* using IP, rather than why you *are* using IP. Automotive intranets by and large do not use IP. It's not yet clear within cars whether the newer EthernetAVB will use IP or not. EAVB is displacing the expensive FlexRay (essentially a TDMA variant of Controller Area Network) and CAN (collision-detection with bus priority arbitration). Within GENIVI automotive consortium (about 170 car companies and suppliers), the arguments against IPV6 for "internode communication" are also about the size of data payloads versus header overhead similar to Dick Roy's Those 37 saved bytes turn out to be roughly somewhere from 5-10% (depending on data sent, certificate sizes and a few other things) of the transmitted stream (PPDU) over the air, and that's not inconsequential when talking about your personal physical safety or that of your family! > I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not use IP. Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security benefits? The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel and reserved PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications. > if using IP makes the technology cheaper (which often happens nowadays), I have spoken about 802.11p and DSRC to a Qualcomm employee who formerly worked for Atheros. He is working on a BSD-licensed 802.11p driver and says that the amount of changes needed to existing 802.11 drivers are not extensive or challenging to implement. Meanwhile, Marcel Holtmann of Intel, chief author of Ofono and Connman, tells me that they should "just work" with DSRC. So the experts seem to think that from the software point of view, the lower-level driver work should be straightforward. Implementing IEEE-1609 is, of course, another matter. Regarding congestion on wireless channels in heavy vehicle traffic, consider the case of dense fog or a multi-car accident ahead. An approaching vehicle could be warned by any single stopped or slow car: it doesn't need to receive messages from all of them! Regarding pedestrians and cyclists mentioned by Dick Roy, why not have the safety system flash the headlights or honk the horn instead of using the driver as an intermediary to do so? I was quite struck by this video sent recently by a fellow cyclist: http://youtu.be/k7oGk-ozhKI Sometimes simple audio warnings are the best modality to reach people. Why vibrate an endangered pedestrian's cell phone when you can just beep loudly? I hope the Bar BoF goes well, Alison -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou --047d7bdc194ea4489704e2dd8c9c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanue= l.Baccelli@inria.fr>
> But realistically, nowadays, you rather= have to justify why you're *not* using IP, rather than why you *are* u= sing IP.

Automotive intranets by and large do not use IP. =A0 =A0 =A0It's no= t yet clear within cars whether the newer EthernetAVB will use IP or not. = =A0 =A0EAVB is displacing the expensive FlexRay (essentially a TDMA variant= of Controller Area Network) and CAN (collision-detection with bus priority= arbitration). =A0 Within GENIVI automotive consortium (about 170 car compa= nies and suppliers), the arguments against IPV6 for "internode communi= cation" are also about the size of data payloads versus header overhea= d similar to Dick Roy's

Those 3= 7 saved bytes turn out to be roughly somewhere from 5-10% (depending on dat= a sent, certificate sizes and a few other things) of the transmitted stream= (PPDU) over the air, and that's not inconsequential when talking about= your personal physical safety or that of your family!

> I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not us= e IP.

Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security= benefits? =A0 The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel and = reserved PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications.

> =A0if using IP makes the technology cheaper (which often happens n= owadays),=A0

I have spoken about 802.11p and DSRC to a Q= ualcomm employee who formerly worked for Atheros. =A0 He is working on a BS= D-licensed 802.11p driver and says that the amount of changes needed to exi= sting 802.11 drivers are not extensive or challenging to implement. =A0 =A0= Meanwhile, Marcel Holtmann of Intel, chief author of Ofono and Connman, te= lls me that they should "just work" with DSRC. =A0 So the experts= seem to think that from the software point of view, the lower-level driver= work should be straightforward. =A0 Implementing IEEE-1609 is, of course, = another matter.

Regarding congestion on wireless channels in heavy =A0v= ehicle traffic, consider the case of dense fog or a multi-car accident ahea= d. =A0 =A0An approaching vehicle could be warned by any single stopped or s= low car: it doesn't need to receive messages from all of them!

Regarding pedestrians and cyclists mentioned by Dick Ro= y, why not have the safety system flash the headlights or honk the horn ins= tead of using the driver as an intermediary to do so? =A0 =A0I was quite st= ruck by this video sent recently by a fellow cyclist:


Sometimes simple audio warnings a= re the best modality to reach people. =A0 =A0Why vibrate an endangered pede= strian's cell phone when you can just beep loudly?

I hope the Bar BoF goes well,
Alison

--
Alison Chaiken =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 alison@she-devel.com
65= 0-279-5600 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://{<= a href=3D"http://she-devel.com">she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org}
The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. =A0 =A0-= - Thea von Harbou --047d7bdc194ea4489704e2dd8c9c-- From buddenbergr@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 07:04:30 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1448E21E8158 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.620, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DvnccZENIcMd for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 07:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x232.google.com (mail-pb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE6221E817F for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 07:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f50.google.com with SMTP id uo5so2132861pbc.37 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 07:04:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :content-type:x-mailer:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qvlob2THfkcS16kaWvjUAHkyNjJ8cBeuhRg4y16vTko=; b=fju0KL71//E+AU5VOQWyxGbPR4vqSK6hU/z2B7PTIQXaQWklULmmMWSGs9mqvLuW4J 6a5KDrw4f7rrdrb9RawYkZAtYRsj/6Er/fq+sSydUjcHoDGlnDps5fAXcowAqkpfSM+5 WlPAXzMjHQcOy+2MfGCWmYiZZBxqYFIBPMhBTUZV9ttjRnEj+HIdvUiCzuE0ywxrgcTT qPgNgxMapX1zmInsUqEP5zhJYJzKrHz9PKK68EmKGs1d5PRO8S07OE5epfse2vN1dAox UjV7INfmpQWRn/Wy613TwRnQ/XNaet91mgEoyUeS8nSf3JUghByW3PrfQbJ8OGphPG/E sZkQ== X-Received: by 10.66.135.146 with SMTP id ps18mr4216146pab.172.1375365859555; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 07:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-50-131-118-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [50.131.118.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id iu7sm4287334pbc.8.2013.08.01.07.04.16 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Aug 2013 07:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1375365854.1735.138.camel@localhost> From: Rex Buddenberg To: Alison Chaiken Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 07:04:14 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.6.4 (3.6.4-3.fc18) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 14:04:30 -0000 On Thu, 2013-08-01 at 00:11 -0700, Alison Chaiken wrote: > Emmanuel Baccelli > > But realistically, nowadays, you rather have to justify why you're > *not* using IP, rather than why you *are* using IP. > > Automotive intranets by and large do not use IP. It's not yet > clear within cars whether the newer EthernetAVB will use IP or not. > EAVB is displacing the expensive FlexRay (essentially a TDMA variant > of Controller Area Network) and CAN (collision-detection with bus > priority arbitration). Within GENIVI automotive consortium (about > 170 car companies and suppliers), the arguments against IPV6 for > "internode communication" are also about the size of data payloads > versus header overhead similar to Dick Roy's > > Those 37 saved bytes turn out to be roughly somewhere from > 5-10% (depending on data sent, certificate sizes and a few > other things) of the transmitted stream (PPDU) over the air, > and that's not inconsequential when talking about your > personal physical safety or that of your family! > > > I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not use IP. > The discussion seems to have missed: > For these single-hop unacknowledged broadcast use cases, which are > driving deployment of DSRC/C-ITS, IP offers no advantage > John Kenney has the caveats exactly right: no ACK, single hop. If those caveats are not valid -- for example, you have an app that requires multiple hops to get data from A to B, then you'll probably want to run it over IP rather than some reinvention of IP. For a wholly in-car comms app, the single-hop caveat holds. But it gets shaky when we have any radio aspects involved because you have LAN in vehicle plus the radio net. If you keep the single-hop mentality, then you will have a rather app-specific structure. > Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security > benefits? The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel > and reserved PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications. This is the discussion that needs to be held. If the non-IP route is pursued, will the security model be 'obscurity'? All our experience in the internet tells us that that only works short term. If we take the 'real authenticity' approach (which I think we're going to need to) then the signatures will eat up all the savings you shaved in the protocol chiseling. ... and more. My experience watching things hybrids like this over the years ... my initial reaction is same as Emmanual's: why are you reinventing something other than IP? And the answer is usually ignorance (yeah, John says otherwise). But if IP can coexist on the plumbing, then there's no reason to get blood pressure up. Example: 15 years ago, there was a push by the housing industry to create household LANs. Using existing CATV cabling and existing power wiring (power line carriers seem to be technology that reappears on about 7 year cycles). The push never got any traction because 1) it was not all that difficult to wire your house for ethernet and 2) WiFi eclipsed this deviant behavior. > > > if using IP makes the technology cheaper (which often happens > nowadays), > > > I have spoken about 802.11p and DSRC to a Qualcomm employee who > formerly worked for Atheros. He is working on a BSD-licensed 802.11p > driver and says that the amount of changes needed to existing 802.11 > drivers are not extensive or challenging to implement. Ethernet framing is very simple: payload with a header/trailer surrounding it. None of the header knows or cares what's in the payload except the ethertype. So there's no problem with a non-IP protocol (batch of ethernet frames) coexisting with IP protocol. (Are we not old enough to remember Appletalk?) > Meanwhile, Marcel Holtmann of Intel, chief author of Ofono and > Connman, tells me that they should "just work" with DSRC. So the > experts seem to think that from the software point of view, the > lower-level driver work should be straightforward. Implementing > IEEE-1609 is, of course, another matter. > > > Regarding congestion on wireless channels in heavy vehicle traffic, > consider the case of dense fog or a multi-car accident ahead. An > approaching vehicle could be warned by any single stopped or slow car: > it doesn't need to receive messages from all of them! > > > Regarding pedestrians and cyclists mentioned by Dick Roy, why not have > the safety system flash the headlights or honk the horn instead of > using the driver as an intermediary to do so? I was quite struck by > this video sent recently by a fellow cyclist: > > > http://youtu.be/k7oGk-ozhKI > > > Sometimes simple audio warnings are the best modality to reach > people. Why vibrate an endangered pedestrian's cell phone when you > can just beep loudly? > > > I hope the Bar BoF goes well, > Alison > > -- > Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com > 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, > exerciseforthereader.org} > The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. > -- Thea von Harbou > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From alison@she-devel.com Thu Aug 1 09:04:47 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB3621E8124 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:04:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.519, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uLa8ten9TgH4 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f53.google.com (mail-oa0-f53.google.com [209.85.219.53]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792D521E8088 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f53.google.com with SMTP id k18so3771763oag.40 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 09:04:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=O3sO2nIfYt2DVNkbWdssUWJPM/+oqb/r7gCM2BXDQ+0=; b=JWnP/ol2aocKIU4OdDIa+nKm/MDv+l0w7spT0xUXmhH4YxLkdVZqtf49S4wJ9rTFoZ 22gtGhwOnP8TiDCD3rLrMOfNO6vD1ChzF5erEvJlFaYydib0aew02PJHEzyqDM/74Jkn HPhQhqKrippYLW032NLr2kWFVR1PaGC5vNjadVlECmBw+TzzAGyYIoZUy5hUzzMiCllZ EFvgdWBGPtMIkicL1iiRRIT8vakk6TdUCU43e7SKbiZzrpWCoHm3wpYDsTbIVuwQml0Z OFQlRdU9UlJ66Htq3lPVLTQW9c5iSsXOlOHkmSsbubisZJf0QV27ruDBRxzWTolaNFlZ cPVw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.138.167 with SMTP id qr7mr1358717igb.0.1375373077337; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 09:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.17.73 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:04:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1375365854.1735.138.camel@localhost> References: <1375365854.1735.138.camel@localhost> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:04:37 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: Rex Buddenberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmEGrao2+AscLS5Z41Uf9JCrsYK1KlTlDEX4MMic27MhO4zGmIA4cN7629RKr1Jx57HuKQm Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:04:47 -0000 Rex responds: > The discussion seems to have missed: > >> For these single-hop unacknowledged broadcast use cases, which are >> driving deployment of DSRC/C-ITS, IP offers no advantage No, we are in complete agreement there, although Emmanuel's points about popularity and cost of IP are worth considering. New standards must overcome a barrier to acceptance just because they're new and must be implemented and tested. I wrote: >> Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security >> benefits? The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel >> and reserved PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications. > > This is the discussion that needs to be held. If the non-IP route is > pursued, will the security model be 'obscurity'? DSRC is a published standard, not "security by obscurity," about which we share a low opinion. > IP can coexist on the plumbing, then there's no reason to get blood pressure up. Concur: for safety applications, there seems to be little motivation to use IP, but for other applications like location-based services, traffic management, etc., there may be compelling reasons. > Example: 15 years ago, there was a push by the housing industry to > create household LANs. Using existing CATV cabling and existing power > wiring (power line carriers seem to be technology that reappears on > about 7 year cycles). The push never got any traction because 1) it was > not all that difficult to wire your house for ethernet and 2) WiFi > eclipsed this deviant behavior. In just such a fashion, LTE is likely to eclipse 802.11p, whether we like it or not. I'm thinking about how to propose a DSRC/CALM activity within GENIVI, as we need to get cracking if we don't want to wake up and find out that DSRC is dead. The U.S. FCC's consideration of allowing other uses for the 5.9 GHz spectrum may be a death blow already. Last I heard, FCC would announce its decision at end of 2013. At least the NHTSA Safety Pilot trial should have reported results by then since I'm sure the American government must run its own test and not rely on simTD! -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou From buddenbergr@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 09:23:55 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677B111E8123 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.444 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.444 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.155, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iUNecXFec+kx for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA28C11E8127 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id fb10so2336124pad.37 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 09:23:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :content-type:x-mailer:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=961XPCwl+hPiyq6oT9a8SZTGLck9JhTUpLlcam5k3g8=; b=JHENeix7fyuB6r+kvibnsbOvnOauj74gz+wJMKrbTcURSKyjgwc/FJZ4d45rk8rmj1 Muwwk92m9Sw1i9lFItblmMHFhqdvsd+bQ6K3iHodu+W/ZnmeAiOSg6itBGb9vUWzN/oy dLU7Gipx4UXfAf179Z0+Cw4iPdQGSLTdrsjBMhYgZONSD9+lZqW9J0yn4d1W5PS4aFI1 ahX3rMA4VwApnzCme2MT+bjeL06ZP4AcG/FRa3ocbK/r52rstZXw4BW++PXW9IcSRqPu 1bf3Gxh5qSCSPDJ4ZPrq3ks5h8GWJIh8Pyg+UTn5f4yPToB/wZThWq3+hkU8NplCHq9i DsVg== X-Received: by 10.66.2.130 with SMTP id 2mr5322533pau.13.1375374234584; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 09:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-50-131-118-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [50.131.118.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qv4sm4927476pbc.16.2013.08.01.09.23.53 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Aug 2013 09:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1375374232.1735.165.camel@localhost> From: Rex Buddenberg To: Alison Chaiken Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 09:23:52 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: <1375365854.1735.138.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.6.4 (3.6.4-3.fc18) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:23:55 -0000 On Thu, 2013-08-01 at 09:04 -0700, Alison Chaiken wrote: > DSRC is dead. The U.S. FCC's > consideration of allowing other uses for the 5.9 GHz spectrum may be a > death blow already. This is a conundrum that the FCC has been wrestling with for a long time. Historically, spectrum allocations have been to specific applications. Which is what DSRC seems to be. Like chunks of VHF spectrum to television, other chunks to maritime voice, etc. The consistent thread is one-to-one pairing of app and spectrum. But the internet is infrastructure that supports 1001 applications. So allocation of spectrum to internet use thoroughly breaks the app-spectrum model. Indeed, the old model isn't just old, it's counterproductive in most (comms*) cases. The worst case of this breakage does indeed intrude on the [its] discussion: Congress set aside (somewhat pre-empting what should be FCC's prerogative) a chunk of spectrum in 700MHz range for emergency services. EMS uses vehicles -- fire engines, police cruisers, ambulances, ... so we clearly have an intersect. But if you're not EMS, then you're not supposed to be in this chunk of spectrum. This presents a major and minor problem plus poor economy: - poor economy -- EMS has to have two comms systems, one for themselves and one to communicate with the public that they exist to serve. - minor. Just who is EMS? Does it include the Wyoming snowplow that I've used before? - major. The spectrum-segregation problem inhibits interoperability. *the one-one pairing still makes sense for radionav apps like GPS and Loran. And it still makes sense for sensory apps like radar. From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 09:53:27 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2902C21E8202 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:53:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.187 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id obENZWzcxx1V for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB77421F9D01 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 09:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r71GrEgl013958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:53:14 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r71GrEwJ012916 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:53:14 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([132.166.86.3]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r71Gr1Zn026682 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:53:13 +0200 Message-ID: <51FA926C.2060908@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 18:53:00 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130620 Thunderbird/17.0.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040300070200060201010505" Subject: [its] slides to open the discussion during bar BoF X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 16:53:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040300070200060201010505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please find attached a set of slides I will use to open the discussion during bar BoF. 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Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB29F21E83D7 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QGmdTlq1KLtH for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ndmsnpf03.ndc.nasa.gov (ndmsnpf03.ndc.nasa.gov [IPv6:2001:4d0:8302:1100::103]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5B5911E8358 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ndjsppt105.ndc.nasa.gov (NDJSPPT105.ndc.nasa.gov [198.117.1.199]) by ndmsnpf03.ndc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C76E2D8004; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 20:13:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ndjshub02.ndc.nasa.gov (ndjshub02-pub.ndc.nasa.gov [198.117.1.161]) by ndjsppt105.ndc.nasa.gov 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(GRC-RHN0)" To: Rex Buddenberg , Alison Chaiken Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 20:13:48 -0500 Thread-Topic: [its] Article + TED talk Thread-Index: Ac6PEqgzs8lifYdkR5iVhat+irxrTQACuJDS Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1375374232.1735.165.camel@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-Entourage/13.11.0.110726 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.10.8794, 1.0.431, 0.0.0000 definitions=2013-08-01_10:2013-08-01, 2013-08-01, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 01:55:47 -0000 > This is a conundrum that the FCC has been wrestling with for a long > time. >=20 > Historically, spectrum allocations have been to specific applications. > Which is what DSRC seems to be. Like chunks of VHF spectrum to > television, other chunks to maritime voice, etc. The consistent thread > is one-to-one pairing of app and spectrum. >=20 > But the internet is infrastructure that supports 1001 applications. So > allocation of spectrum to internet use thoroughly breaks the > app-spectrum model. Indeed, the old model isn't just old, it's > counterproductive in most (comms*) cases. This is one of the big pushes for Dynamic Spectrum Access (DSA). It is not just for the military. Rather, it could be argued to be much more cost effective for commercial applications. Basically, dynamic spectrum sharing to determine locally unused spectrum, and then operate on these channels without causing interference to the existing users. -- Will From buddenbergr@gmail.com Thu Aug 1 19:12:06 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584DA11E81CC for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 19:12:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.124, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wzb--6-v01Cl for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 19:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x22e.google.com (mail-pb0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22e]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1539111E80F2 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2013 18:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f46.google.com with SMTP id rq2so88109pbb.5 for ; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 18:38:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :content-type:x-mailer:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vIrsHCgj+rOQLEsH7aI4/+KOxCrGpAeklbdzSKF/ivw=; b=ffkaD18dpFvwRAklGAPDl2mrRXo0Znxt7j0Ph//7UmuHAHkJhz5J+4MUnc75WrjpVn AHKRgirYnY/pX8LMyMDkHRZVjZLqR6jHUJAujw3bD5Bi9rFTanz1jsfelbmDjpMILCp2 n2b/eZgr66IXtb0qUb9vnLJ3+N+NTsTk5ODcs0GmIRCSbrhMHrNwltMKiV5hN27GQvLB 590jRoCnaTLYlsz34PNHDrALxQLlqZFHqaOVLC4iJ0qE36TVmE4XQN/6URxHMCV4tXBU hF46TY/FqqLmqRRfE73JYL0TLHP/XtXmTcarQEeSMiCgTLkVVdgpTXZxA1pG17j0xVWJ /a1Q== X-Received: by 10.68.211.194 with SMTP id ne2mr5065449pbc.40.1375407533794; Thu, 01 Aug 2013 18:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-50-131-118-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [50.131.118.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id kd1sm7089305pab.20.2013.08.01.18.38.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 01 Aug 2013 18:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1375407531.1735.168.camel@localhost> From: Rex Buddenberg To: "Ivancic, William D. (GRC-RHN0)" Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2013 18:38:51 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.6.4 (3.6.4-3.fc18) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alison Chaiken , "its@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 02:12:06 -0000 Will, Flip over to the PAWS working group. It's an IETF working group designing a policy-neutral mechanism for this (WS in PAWS stands for white space, the colloquial name for dynamic spectrum access). Both FCC in US and OFCOM in UK are designing policies so we hear from some of them in the PAWS e-mail thread now and then. On Thu, 2013-08-01 at 20:13 -0500, Ivancic, William D. (GRC-RHN0) wrote: > > This is a conundrum that the FCC has been wrestling with for a long > > time. > > > > Historically, spectrum allocations have been to specific applications. > > Which is what DSRC seems to be. Like chunks of VHF spectrum to > > television, other chunks to maritime voice, etc. The consistent thread > > is one-to-one pairing of app and spectrum. > > > > But the internet is infrastructure that supports 1001 applications. So > > allocation of spectrum to internet use thoroughly breaks the > > app-spectrum model. Indeed, the old model isn't just old, it's > > counterproductive in most (comms*) cases. > > This is one of the big pushes for Dynamic Spectrum Access (DSA). It is not > just for the military. Rather, it could be argued to be much more cost > effective for commercial applications. Basically, dynamic spectrum sharing > to determine locally unused spectrum, and then operate on these channels > without causing interference to the existing users. > > -- Will > > > > From roland.bless@kit.edu Fri Aug 2 01:36:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39CD21E82DD for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kd4NPp8x5eA for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355DD11E82CA for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 01:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 id 1V5AmZ-0007ro-0N; Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:32:24 +0200 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CD75A80166; Fri, 2 Aug 2013 10:32:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <51FB6E92.6060303@kit.edu> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 10:32:18 +0200 From: Roland Bless Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Thunderbird/1.5 Mnenhy/0.7.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alison Chaiken References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.5.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ATIS-AV: Kaspersky (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1375432344.787265000 Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 08:36:09 -0000 Hi, On 01.08.2013 09:11, Alison Chaiken wrote: > Emmanuel Baccelli > >> But realistically, nowadays, you rather have to justify why you're > *not* using IP, rather than why you *are* using IP. > > Automotive intranets by and large do not use IP. It's not yet clear Not yet, but BMW is using IP already in its on-board networks. We had a national project (SEIS) that worked on the introduction of IP into on-board networks. Getting rid of all those different bus systems and heterogeneous protocols would simplify the network architecture a lot. There are several reasons why you would like to have IP on top of Ethernet... > within cars whether the newer EthernetAVB will use IP or not. EAVB is > displacing the expensive FlexRay (essentially a TDMA variant of > Controller Area Network) and CAN (collision-detection with bus priority > arbitration). Within GENIVI automotive consortium (about 170 car > companies and suppliers), the arguments against IPV6 for "internode > communication" are also about the size of data payloads versus header > overhead similar to Dick Roy's Optimizing too early and at the wrong end IMHO... >> I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not use IP. > > Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security benefits? > The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel and reserved > PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications. Security by obscurity? Sure, on the one hand IP knowledge and attack tools are more widely available, on the other hand the security mechanisms like IPsec/DTLS and so on are proven to work well. Regards, Roland From alison@she-devel.com Mon Aug 5 23:16:44 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C73211E80D3 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:16:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.886 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.886 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.398, BAYES_05=-1.11, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lTs3G0TWM4KD for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com (mail-ob0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E574521F9A40 for ; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f182.google.com with SMTP id wo10so7555989obc.27 for ; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 23:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :x-gm-message-state; bh=aG58VAHtb6l1YQ/gBI8IH/By8Xsf/YSpozidcHEjhRk=; b=GC3eWEZbWaDH/lEaFhfDizvboHpepJ0DV+jSON2lFodMsJItesMyXejVNeWIYOvEmT 6JKHOJyq6g3ckBcR9lNKrKKUYGNibc/07hEZ/YGZ2vq38cKgNWo2Fx+w5k5DBqAEPgHn +VPZxTYof4SkIfhxd4jJsRWGSxcfV4PCjjVvzbT5FZXNzCjJzjSY3UyglzgwunFc/KEC 0LSrTYSRY+4vodHN4s9D/7aFWtCl+rC5RqLbQcq+5fAGEhzXk3TMaHni7QuZVqEsJi+E vqPB8KRU5RXcRw2cNd0DBgNNmoGVcz0izUzkkAtysSSx6MRx29K57eUbR5hnnFcw+kY4 BzJw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.82.104 with SMTP id h8mr122746igy.17.1375769796028; Mon, 05 Aug 2013 23:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.17.73 with HTTP; Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:16:35 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: its@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlrQ9WzertET8vkT6HGw/E9AytIiNRw0JDRMEFNTuubRU6ybwIIXMhCBROaOPlernz2VJBZ Cc: m.ruggeri@imamoter.cnr.it Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 06:16:44 -0000 Roland Bless writes: > BMW is using IP already in its on-board networks. True, but BMW employees have been among those who object to IP for some car intranet applications, as have some BWM contractors. Ethernet AVB is the way to go in the longer term, but cars contain a lot of legacy 8- and 16-bit microcontrollers that are inexpensive and robust. However, vendors of safety-critical systems like automakers are not anxious to wholesale replace too many of these parts at one go, and I don't blame them. A lot of these MCUs expect CAN or SPI (serial peripheral interface) signals. Figuring out how to translate messages from Ethernet packets to CAN messages or SPI signals in a real-time control system is not so simple. Prof. Max Ruggeri of Italy's Imamoter Institute (CC'ed) has done some fine work on creating CAN-Ethernet gateways for agricultural applications, which are commonly fully autonomous. See, for example, his paper "SAE J 1939 Over Real Time Ethernet: The Future of Heavy Duty Vehicle Networks" (doi:10.4271/2012-01-1988). >>> I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not use IP. I'm not sure the savings would be so meager when we consider Ethernet-CAN or Ethernet-SPI translation. I wrote: >> Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security benefits? >> The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel and reserved >> PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications. Roland inquires: > Security by obscurity? Sure, on the one hand IP knowledge and attack > tools are more widely available, on the other hand the security > mechanisms like IPsec/DTLS and so on are proven to work well. I'm not sure why folks keep referring to proposed use of published protocols as "security by obscurity." Assuredly different applications may benefit from different special-purpose protocols. Segregating higher-priority communications about safety to separate DSRC channels in 802.11p is not intended to to be obscure but to be robust by design in a way that other 802.11 protocols are not. I used nmap today to figure out why I couldn't ssh in to my own system, and find "pen tools" useful for debugging myself, but that doesn't mean that I believe that my toaster should run IPV6. It is regrettable indeed that SAE, ISO and (IIRC) ETSI protocols are not available for free. The difficulty of interchanging these freely really hampers discussions like the present one. Congrats to IETF for staying open. -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} The intermediary between the head and the hands must be the heart. -- Thea von Harbou From m.ruggeri@imamoter.cnr.it Tue Aug 6 03:05:34 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3B9121F9C4A for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 03:05:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KicSaZLskRpm for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 03:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.imamoter.cnr.it (mail.imamoter.cnr.it [192.167.188.17]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B46521F9D17 for ; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 03:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.imamoter.cnr.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CBF32C005; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:05:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.imamoter.cnr.it ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.imamoter.cnr.it [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08301-05; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:05:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (imamoter.imamoter.cnr.it [192.167.188.10]) by mail.imamoter.cnr.it (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4739632C001; Tue, 6 Aug 2013 12:05:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5200CA76.9050009@imamoter.cnr.it> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 12:05:42 +0200 From: "m.ruggeri" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130620 Thunderbird/17.0.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alison Chaiken References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 10:18:55 -0700 Cc: its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2013 14:59:18 -0000 Dear Alison, dear Roland and friends. I'm totally new in this group and I don't know all Your previous discussion. Sorry for that. I will try to expose my point of view, briefly, and if someone will have some question, I will try to answer in my best way. I'm a CAN and automotive systems expert rather than an Ethernet and IP expert. Really the discussion can be huge because of a lot of aspects and functionalities that we can consider or not. Sure in the future we will manage a lot of automatic "in car" functionalities, and safety, security and real time aspects will be the major goals to be satisfied. We tried to work on Ethernet just because of the bandwidth, the large amount of free software, components and systems, Ethernet is the preferred candidate to be a low cost network system in the future. I can't forget the cost and the difficulties to start with my first CAN application in Magneti Marelli Company in Italy in the '90 connecting the car engine to an ABS/ASR system ..... :) We suppose that a similar cost downsizing will happen for Ethernet; just have a look to the ARM/Cortex M4 today pricing ... You can buy a 2 Ethernet 32 bit micro-controller for less than 1 $.... In the Agricultural machines and construction machines we have a lot of requirements for autonomous driving and autonomous working, right now. Sensors for virtual fencing, camera vision to recognize plants and humans, fleet and work sessions management systems running in real time with GPS and inertial platforms @ 100Hz are commonly used and the precision requested is less than 2 cm for autonomous driving. Thus we need a lot of bandwidth, we need real-time, we need less CPU time to change protocol and we need safety and security, because of the responsibility for autonomous driving and to protect data .... then the natural solution is Ethernet and IP. Other Big Constructors are trying to use Ethercat(TM), we are also evaluating Powerlink(TM) because of the OpenSafe(TM) Layer ..... but otday we don't have "the" solution. An ISO standard is not ready (but we are working on it for Agricultural Machines). Anyway I have a stand alone toaster at home. I don't like complex systems if they are not necessary, but I think that Ethernet can be an opportunity for Automotive systems. In fact we have to remember that CAN is not suitable for safety critical applications. Some Ethernet based protocol can be certified for safety. In our research we just synthesized a protocol that is very similar to the Avionic ARINC-664 (AFDX) that was developed - I suppose - in Germany (as usual). We just have some direct experience and we have some product running properly in a real network. I can send to You data related to some measurement in switched networks and in hub networks where CAN messages are sent using the Ethernet backbone, once packet in UDP datagrams, using a modified TCP/IP protocol in a similar way the ARINC 664 (AFDX) protocol suggests. Please let me know if our work can be of some interest from Your side, no problem for us to open the doors to friends and share the whole knowledge and experience. Kind regards Massimiliano Ruggeri ---- Il 06/08/2013 08:16, Alison Chaiken ha scritto: > Roland Bless writes: >> BMW is using IP already in its on-board networks. > True, but BMW employees have been among those who object to IP for > some car intranet applications, as have some BWM contractors. > Ethernet AVB is the way to go in the longer term, but cars contain a > lot of legacy 8- and 16-bit microcontrollers that are inexpensive and > robust. However, vendors of safety-critical systems like automakers > are not anxious to wholesale replace too many of these parts at one > go, and I don't blame them. > > A lot of these MCUs expect CAN or SPI (serial peripheral interface) > signals. Figuring out how to translate messages from Ethernet > packets to CAN messages or SPI signals in a real-time control system > is not so simple. Prof. Max Ruggeri of Italy's Imamoter Institute > (CC'ed) has done some fine work on creating CAN-Ethernet gateways for > agricultural applications, which are commonly fully autonomous. See, > for example, his paper "SAE J 1939 Over Real Time Ethernet: The Future > of Heavy Duty Vehicle Networks" (doi:10.4271/2012-01-1988). > >>>> I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not use IP. > I'm not sure the savings would be so meager when we consider > Ethernet-CAN or Ethernet-SPI translation. > > I wrote: >>> Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security benefits? >>> The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel and reserved >>> PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications. > Roland inquires: >> Security by obscurity? Sure, on the one hand IP knowledge and attack >> tools are more widely available, on the other hand the security >> mechanisms like IPsec/DTLS and so on are proven to work well. > I'm not sure why folks keep referring to proposed use of published > protocols as "security by obscurity." Assuredly different > applications may benefit from different special-purpose protocols. > Segregating higher-priority communications about safety to separate > DSRC channels in 802.11p is not intended to to be obscure but to be > robust by design in a way that other 802.11 protocols are not. I > used nmap today to figure out why I couldn't ssh in to my own system, > and find "pen tools" useful for debugging myself, but that doesn't > mean that I believe that my toaster should run IPV6. > > It is regrettable indeed that SAE, ISO and (IIRC) ETSI protocols are > not available for free. The difficulty of interchanging these freely > really hampers discussions like the present one. Congrats to IETF > for staying open. > From buddenbergr@gmail.com Fri Aug 9 11:51:05 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F071B21F9D0F for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.511, BAYES_50=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AbMN2mTBRpbI for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-x234.google.com (mail-pb0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89DE211E8147 for ; Fri, 9 Aug 2013 11:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pb0-f52.google.com with SMTP id wz12so4816071pbc.25 for ; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 11:44:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :content-type:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+mgB5+r2JnPOyKZ42Qbb98iWtIsFAugqycuXjP6UuRs=; b=v+8U1OBHJbCpf+DslH4v+/RPnHd1knIdYZpG8ghPBy0W1v9zqD2q0xZ/ksRlKbb1jc PqXeOIstYauCOkcSIh/PGnKGiIkKPCI6VHETst3amps5k4L/XltNAhfoJg+aZ9R73Hum UgD7OsxI4LVtFjcEpW5SbBzm5kYWBHrvBBlQ9iECwLwMtmM5zR0IE5NzLk8sxPmi6GKt jJNNyyzB6MddYIlKUQ3ntyYoZCltg5RW3s7C87qR87E2BtdQ2Cm9QwuZ/27xHVeyN2c1 bD6J/aBlFpXlorb6GeunU55oH4cCNECHb1GmgW5ewUmXoRW7MhE5rgnAmyiN7xiakz0L wKoQ== X-Received: by 10.68.50.138 with SMTP id c10mr12987353pbo.136.1376073880165; Fri, 09 Aug 2013 11:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-50-131-118-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [50.131.118.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sz6sm23934739pab.5.2013.08.09.11.44.38 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Aug 2013 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1376073877.17678.242.camel@localhost> From: Rex Buddenberg To: "m.ruggeri" Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 11:44:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: <5200CA76.9050009@imamoter.cnr.it> References: <5200CA76.9050009@imamoter.cnr.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.6.4 (3.6.4-3.fc18) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Alison Chaiken , its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2013 18:51:05 -0000 Massimiliano, On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 12:05 +0200, m.ruggeri wrote: > Dear Alison, dear Roland and friends. > I'm totally new in this group and I don't know all Your previous > discussion. Sorry for that. No apologies necessary. > I will try to expose my point of view, > briefly, and if someone will have some question, I will try to answer in > my best way. Some of my comments on your comments will be review, but since you're new on the list ... the rest can flush my traffic (they do anyway). > I'm a CAN and automotive systems expert rather than an Ethernet and IP > expert. While I'm no expert on CAN, what I see here is a very familiar argument. CAN is, from what I do know, wholly for intra-vehicle communications. Or, to put into internet-speak, it is not a routable network. This leads to two (very familiar) sides of the discussion: Intra. One side of the discussion says 'preserve the CAN investment'. For those exceptional cases where we import or export the data, we'll drop in a layer 7 gateway. Inter. The other side of the discussion is more of a 'do internet' approach -- we overhaul the local data link to make it routable (ethernet is one example of routable network). This requires making the end systems considerably smarter, so there's some NRE involved. That engineering and technology may be new to this particular industry, but not to the internet at large. My personal background is as a communicator, certainly not as an automobile engineer. So my biases will be toward the Inter. approach above; you've been warned. > > Really the discussion can be huge because of a lot of aspects and > functionalities that we can consider or not. > Sure in the future we will manage a lot of automatic "in car" > functionalities, and safety, security and real time aspects will be the > major goals to be satisfied. Probably the last major item to get discussed is data security, particularly data authenticity. But it should be about the first. In the Intra case, we assume that any data on the bus (CAN or otherwise) came from some sensor in the automobile itself. And since the bus is standalone, there's no ability for some outsider to put data onto the network, bogus or otherwise. So by comprehensive control of the population of end systems, we can meet the authenticity requirement. This assumption falls apart the moment you start importing data from external. Such as downloading CAP feeds to get weather reports. The security-by-isolation (usually tacit) assumption is no longer valid. There are, of course, several ways to deal with the authenticity requirement. One is to logically isolate, as in VPNs. But that runs counter to the desire to share the data ... you reach a point of diminishing returns. A better way is to assume that there will be liars among the data feeds somewhere and the population of data feeds is such that you cannot control them directly. Deal with them by requiring positive authentication OF THE DATA, that is require digital signatures. This impacts several of your secondary arguments -- you will want enough capacity to deal with the increased message sizes entailed by adding a signature. And the one-time engineering costs become a factor: we have serviceable solutions in the internet environment, but you'd have to replicate all these in a CAN one. > > We tried to work on Ethernet just because of the bandwidth, the large > amount of free software, components and systems, Ethernet is the > preferred candidate to be a low cost network system in the future. As you probably gathered by now, I'm on board with this approach. But pay attention to high availability issues. Single-threaded ethernet is just like any other single-threaded comms system -- component break = system fail. We put backup brake systems in automobiles for a good reason; we should do the same with the comms. (Routable networks shine here because they solve, by protocol design, the reliable crossover problem. A truck full of gateways will not). > I can't forget the cost and the difficulties to start with my first CAN > application in Magneti Marelli Company in Italy in the '90 connecting > the car engine to an ABS/ASR system ..... :) > We suppose that a similar cost downsizing will happen for Ethernet; just > have a look to the ARM/Cortex M4 today pricing ... You can buy a 2 > Ethernet 32 bit micro-controller for less than 1 $.... > > In the Agricultural machines and construction machines we have a lot of > requirements for autonomous driving and autonomous working, right now. The takeaway from this use case (more ubiquitous in agriculture than on the freeway) is that you have import and export of data. > Sensors for virtual fencing, camera vision to recognize plants and > humans, fleet and work sessions management systems running in real time > with GPS and inertial platforms @ 100Hz are commonly used and the > precision requested is less than 2 cm for autonomous driving. > Thus we need a lot of bandwidth, we need real-time, we need less CPU > time to change protocol and we need safety and security, because of the > responsibility for autonomous driving and to protect data .... then the > natural solution is Ethernet and IP. > > Other Big Constructors are trying to use Ethercat(TM), we are also > evaluating Powerlink(TM) because of the OpenSafe(TM) Layer ..... but > otday we don't have "the" solution. An ISO standard is not ready (but we > are working on it for Agricultural Machines). 30 years ago, Society of Automotive Engineers -- SAE is a peer standards body to IEEE -- was working on a ring network standard. Technically it was eclipsed by FDDI. At the time it was too expensive to get traction in the market. But the advantage of both SAE Ring and FDDI was that they solved the high availability problem quite elegantly. > > Anyway I have a stand alone toaster at home. I don't like complex > systems if they are not necessary, but I think that Ethernet can be an > opportunity for Automotive systems. Zoruishi, in Japan, builds things like teapots that are end systems connected to the internet. The use case here is that one can check up on your parents -- use of the teapot is 1) communicated to whoever and 2) a reliable indicator that your folks are OK. > In fact we have to remember that CAN is not suitable for safety critical > applications. Some Ethernet based protocol can be certified for safety. > > In our research we just synthesized a protocol that is very similar to > the Avionic ARINC-664 (AFDX) that was developed - I suppose - in Germany > (as usual). ARINC data buses have historically been non-routable, like CAN. Both aircraft and military manufacturing use a lot of Mil-1550 bus for intra-vehicle comms. Examples of the Intra case above. None are very good as soon as you start importing or exporting data. > > We just have some direct experience and we have some product running > properly in a real network. I can send to You data related to some > measurement in switched networks and in hub networks where CAN messages > are sent using the Ethernet backbone, once packet in UDP datagrams, > using a modified TCP/IP protocol in a similar way the ARINC 664 (AFDX) > protocol suggests. What modifications did you make? Why did you feel you needed them? This is also not new but the features of TCP and IP are all there for a reason and if you monkey with them you're likely to stub your comms interoperability toe. (I observed very expensive cases of this in satellite comms networks.) The worst of the exercises are those that place some QoS control requirement before session reliability in the priority list -- that's always a shortsighted and BAAAAAD tradeoff. > > Please let me know if our work can be of some interest from Your side, > no problem for us to open the doors to friends and share the whole > knowledge and experience. The mail group is rather amorphous; there is no 'your side'. > > Kind regards > > Massimiliano Ruggeri > ---- > > > Il 06/08/2013 08:16, Alison Chaiken ha scritto: > > Roland Bless writes: > >> BMW is using IP already in its on-board networks. > > True, but BMW employees have been among those who object to IP for > > some car intranet applications, as have some BWM contractors. > > Ethernet AVB is the way to go in the longer term, but cars contain a > > lot of legacy 8- and 16-bit microcontrollers that are inexpensive and > > robust. However, vendors of safety-critical systems like automakers > > are not anxious to wholesale replace too many of these parts at one > > go, and I don't blame them. > > > > A lot of these MCUs expect CAN or SPI (serial peripheral interface) > > signals. Figuring out how to translate messages from Ethernet > > packets to CAN messages or SPI signals in a real-time control system > > is not so simple. Prof. Max Ruggeri of Italy's Imamoter Institute > > (CC'ed) has done some fine work on creating CAN-Ethernet gateways for > > agricultural applications, which are commonly fully autonomous. See, > > for example, his paper "SAE J 1939 Over Real Time Ethernet: The Future > > of Heavy Duty Vehicle Networks" (doi:10.4271/2012-01-1988). > > > >>>> I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not use IP. > > I'm not sure the savings would be so meager when we consider > > Ethernet-CAN or Ethernet-SPI translation. > > > > I wrote: > >>> Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security benefits? > >>> The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety channel and reserved > >>> PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety applications. > > Roland inquires: > >> Security by obscurity? Sure, on the one hand IP knowledge and attack > >> tools are more widely available, on the other hand the security > >> mechanisms like IPsec/DTLS and so on are proven to work well. > > I'm not sure why folks keep referring to proposed use of published > > protocols as "security by obscurity." Assuredly different > > applications may benefit from different special-purpose protocols. > > Segregating higher-priority communications about safety to separate > > DSRC channels in 802.11p is not intended to to be obscure but to be > > robust by design in a way that other 802.11 protocols are not. I > > used nmap today to figure out why I couldn't ssh in to my own system, > > and find "pen tools" useful for debugging myself, but that doesn't > > mean that I believe that my toaster should run IPV6. > > > > It is regrettable indeed that SAE, ISO and (IIRC) ETSI protocols are > > not available for free. The difficulty of interchanging these freely > > really hampers discussions like the present one. Congrats to IETF > > for staying open. > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Mon Aug 19 05:25:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18ADC11E80DE for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:25:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HhVXWW8-1VC4 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83B311E8248 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r7JCP65R026590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:25:06 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7JCP5au006949 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:25:06 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r7JCOxRN012227 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:25:05 +0200 Message-ID: <52120E9B.1040007@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:24:59 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <51FA926C.2060908@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <51FA926C.2060908@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [its] outcome of bar BoF ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:25:13 -0000 Hello ITSers, At the Berlin IETF we held a bar BoF during 1 hour about ITS; here is what happened briefly, thanking John for penning notes. Eliot Lear gave an overview about how successful BoF mounting works at IETF, referring to RFC 5434. He also mentioned aspects of Liaison ISO-IETF with respect to vehicular networking were mentioned, questions of liaison manager were mentioned. The 3 ITS topics discussed: V2V/V2I, Geocasting/GeoNetworking, IPv6-straight-over-80211p. We mentioned timeline and agreed to strive to write two problem statement drafts and a draft Charter proposal along the lines of: V2V and V2I communications and GeoCasting/GeoNetworking. The topic IPv6-over-80211p didnt get tract at this bar BoF discussion. Informal notes of participants express commitment to this deadline, but the timescale may be very difficult. ISO TC 204 CALM have expressed an interest in an exchange of views on v2x networking BOF committee meets September 23. Drafts should be written by then. At this bar BoF the following participants met: Stan Ratliff (MANET WG Chair) Greenville Armitage (mpath TCP interest) Lotte Steenbrink (Freie U., day's scribe at MANET) Andreas Festag (ETSI TC ITS WG Networking) Georgios Karagiannis John Dowdell Rick Taylor Alexandru Petrescu Ronald in 't Velt (partial) Alex Le 01/08/2013 18:53, Alexandru Petrescu a écrit : > Please find attached a set of slides I will use to open the > discussion during bar BoF. > > Alex > > > _______________________________________________ its mailing list > its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Mon Aug 19 05:51:42 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4596B11E822F for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:51:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_17=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h5SakY0xDtwK for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFF0711E80C5 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 05:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r7JCpXiR024682 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:51:33 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7JCpXhk018839; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:51:33 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r7JCpOXC026893; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:51:33 +0200 Message-ID: <521214CD.2010103@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 14:51:25 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "m.ruggeri" References: <5200CA76.9050009@imamoter.cnr.it> In-Reply-To: <5200CA76.9050009@imamoter.cnr.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alison Chaiken , its@ietf.org Subject: Re: [its] Article + TED talk X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 12:51:42 -0000 Hello Massimiliano, Thanks for the email. The perspective from agricultural vehicles is surprisingly similar to that of other vehicles. The autonomous driving is one striking such similarity, in the use of tight localization systems (and the first time I hear of 100Hz GPS sampling!). I will not be wrong to guess that more automated vehicles are on the fields and construction sites than on the roads these days. Le 06/08/2013 12:05, m.ruggeri a écrit : [...] > We just have some direct experience and we have some product running > properly in a real network. I can send to You data related to some > measurement in switched networks and in hub networks where CAN > messages are sent using the Ethernet backbone, once packet in UDP > datagrams, using a modified TCP/IP protocol in a similar way the > ARINC 664 (AFDX) protocol suggests. I wonder whether this kind of communication from device to CAN to Ethernet across the Internet and up to some IP server is considered in agricultural/construction vehicles. And what are the UDP and TCP/IP modifications? This communication scenario is often referred to as "V2I" for Vehicle to Infrastructure. Recently, a draft was submitted draft-liu-its-mobility-00.txt which describes some mobility considerations (Mobile IP and DNS interactions) for this V2I scenario. > Please let me know if our work can be of some interest from Your > side, no problem for us to open the doors to friends and share the > whole knowledge and experience. Well, let us discuss further, and see whether V2I scenarios for agricultural/construction vehicles could be described in an Internet Draft. Alex > > Kind regards > > Massimiliano Ruggeri ---- > > > Il 06/08/2013 08:16, Alison Chaiken ha scritto: >> Roland Bless writes: >>> BMW is using IP already in its on-board networks. >> True, but BMW employees have been among those who object to IP for >> some car intranet applications, as have some BWM contractors. >> Ethernet AVB is the way to go in the longer term, but cars contain >> a lot of legacy 8- and 16-bit microcontrollers that are >> inexpensive and robust. However, vendors of safety-critical >> systems like automakers are not anxious to wholesale replace too >> many of these parts at one go, and I don't blame them. >> >> A lot of these MCUs expect CAN or SPI (serial peripheral interface) >> signals. Figuring out how to translate messages from Ethernet >> packets to CAN messages or SPI signals in a real-time control >> system is not so simple. Prof. Max Ruggeri of Italy's Imamoter >> Institute (CC'ed) has done some fine work on creating CAN-Ethernet >> gateways for agricultural applications, which are commonly fully >> autonomous. See, for example, his paper "SAE J 1939 Over Real >> Time Ethernet: The Future of Heavy Duty Vehicle Networks" >> (doi:10.4271/2012-01-1988). >> >>>>> I don't think 5-10% savings are a good enough reason to not >>>>> use IP. >> I'm not sure the savings would be so meager when we consider >> Ethernet-CAN or Ethernet-SPI translation. >> >> I wrote: >>>> Perhaps using a protocol other than IP will also have security >>>> benefits? The PKE model of DSRC, with its reserved safety >>>> channel and reserved PSIDs, seems pretty appealing for safety >>>> applications. >> Roland inquires: >>> Security by obscurity? Sure, on the one hand IP knowledge and >>> attack tools are more widely available, on the other hand the >>> security mechanisms like IPsec/DTLS and so on are proven to work >>> well. >> I'm not sure why folks keep referring to proposed use of published >> protocols as "security by obscurity." Assuredly different >> applications may benefit from different special-purpose protocols. >> Segregating higher-priority communications about safety to >> separate DSRC channels in 802.11p is not intended to to be obscure >> but to be robust by design in a way that other 802.11 protocols >> are not. I used nmap today to figure out why I couldn't ssh in >> to my own system, and find "pen tools" useful for debugging myself, >> but that doesn't mean that I believe that my toaster should run >> IPV6. >> >> It is regrettable indeed that SAE, ISO and (IIRC) ETSI protocols >> are not available for free. The difficulty of interchanging >> these freely really hampers discussions like the present one. >> Congrats to IETF for staying open. >> > > _______________________________________________ its mailing list > its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > From garmitage@swin.edu.au Mon Aug 19 23:31:13 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4265D11E80D2 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLocLXZ1bduK for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gpo4.cc.swin.edu.au (gpo4.cc.swin.edu.au [136.186.1.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39EE011E81C9 for ; Mon, 19 Aug 2013 23:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.186.229.37] (garmitage.caia.swin.edu.au [136.186.229.37]) by gpo4.cc.swin.edu.au (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r7K6Ul01002544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:31:02 +1000 Message-ID: <52130D17.90500@swin.edu.au> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:30:47 +1000 From: grenville armitage User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121107 Thunderbird/16.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: <51FA926C.2060908@gmail.com> <52120E9B.1040007@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <52120E9B.1040007@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [its] outcome of bar BoF ITS X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 06:31:13 -0000 On 08/19/2013 22:24, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: [..] > At this bar BoF the following participants met: > > Stan Ratliff (MANET WG Chair) > Greenville Armitage (mpath TCP interest) Also Nigel Williams (mptcp v2i interest) cheers, gja From alison@she-devel.com Tue Aug 20 00:38:57 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEAB611E81E1 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N8Zl-uTZU5li for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa0-f46.google.com (mail-oa0-f46.google.com [209.85.219.46]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F60A11E81DF for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id l10so72228oag.33 for ; Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:38:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=thtNJ7j4E6hcYwl/+PoVkFbUh32d1PXvgORQoh7ev3E=; b=Kc8BYz4C88YSSTUCl832LwKrGMgYolhfkmI/i8NUI/ZWHA2HhbT8LgxeSSOLEsJMkK qSKpKJEynlb10V6RQGmLDo5OoEQ1zvayAhNQC/N8OzJxRajiaQxadwXkRQwYyoZvtLvQ XzU5O7SCGgO3zFPQejgna8v/k2cIqDpq3IgaqKnd7gOkdBC4wRStK79WDeM/hdSpnYIR H0xr1RShIzW6YS++RHd8x64WExKAqrtyyW342UVUs0qeTaEi4hBvlEMishfjU9w+KhkY 8XwPdaQ2Fy/H6ucxncLTP/KXdyuW47QkLRJc2ifzCCiB5yoUgZQglF+8PisvQy6QJJEJ k2iA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn/qRGzFvOw7i6PkyQT743R0BoP0sesWNOEScbPs/PmvFkhw4klI+m/pM4AN2Tgy8HLdLdD MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.65.4 with SMTP id j4mr76720ici.23.1376984331858; Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.30.138 with HTTP; Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 00:38:51 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: christoph.schroth@cdtm.de, Marc.Bechler@bmw.de, timo.kosch@bmw.de, markus.strassberger@bmw.de Subject: [its] _Automotive Inter-networking_ book X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 07:38:57 -0000 I'd like to recommend the excellent book, _Automotive Inter-networking_ by Timo Kosch, Christoph Schroth, Markus Strassberger and Marc Bechler, published by Wiley in 2012. All the questions we've discussed on this list are described in detail, and there are references to all the various standards and pilot projects. Perhaps the authors (CC'ed) might find it useful to participate on the ITS-IETF list or in the new V2V/V2I, Geocasting/GeoNetworking proposals. Best wishes, Alison -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} It's a bug that cars were invented before computers. -- Eric Schmidt From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Wed Aug 21 04:52:07 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB47421F97C7 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:52:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.233, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U2bE0iFRBrvi for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AD611E8391 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 04:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r7LBpqIk021393 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:51:53 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7LBpqpO021990 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:51:52 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r7LBpinA020035 for ; Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:51:52 +0200 Message-ID: <5214A9D0.6010305@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 13:51:44 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: its@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [its] "OVERBROAD PATENT ON IN-FLIGHT/IN-CAR NETWORKING" X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 11:52:08 -0000 Hello Alison and thanks for the pointer. (there is an error in that stackexchange page, because it refers wrongly to US 20130159435 A1. The right reference is US 20130159586 A1 "Motor vehicle control system with simplified information exchange".) I didnt even know that CAN messages would be able to embed HTTP messages. For the particular vehicular gateway I am working with, although it does use HTTP and CAN, it doesn't embed a HTTP message in a CAN message; rather it extracts the data from the HTTP request, thinks about it, and constructs a pure CAN request. I dont see why would one embed a full HTTP request into a CAN message? Is any device connected on CAN able to run HTTP software yet has no Ethernet plug (that would be surprising)? If not, then rather contact the device via its Ethernet plug. That is from the point of view of V2I (the infrastructure sends some request to a device in the vehicle). And from the V2V perspective... there exists prototyping about transmitting a vehicle's CAN data to another vehicle nearby. That may happen as well with HTTP. However, it wouldn't be with Ethernet but with bluetooth between vehicles, with a CAN Module with Bluetooth interface. For these contexts the same reasoning would apply: contact the HTTP server via the IP-enabled bluetooth interface, rather than on CAN interface. Alex Le 01/08/2013 00:58, Alison Chaiken a écrit : > http://patents.stackexchange.com/questions/4624/vehicle-networking-http-to-can-bus-gateway-lear-patent-application-prior > From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Fri Aug 23 05:26:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58CFF11E81B3 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.637 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.637 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.787, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_RAND_LETTRS4=0.799] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4ArXlxzsg-H for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 05:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E6411E82F1 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 05:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r7NCQEj1028748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 14:26:14 +0200 Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7NCQE3T005120 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 14:26:14 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r7NCQ44r023593 for ; Fri, 23 Aug 2013 14:26:13 +0200 Message-ID: <521754DC.8050401@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 14:26:04 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "its@ietf.org" References: <041301ce9fe6$868c7710$93a56530$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <041301ce9fe6$868c7710$93a56530$@olddog.co.uk> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <041301ce9fe6$868c7710$93a56530$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [its] Fwd: FW: 88th IETF - Working Group/BOF/IRTF Scheduling X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2013 12:26:23 -0000 FYI, The deadline of Sept. 23rd is particularly important for problem statement drafts. Alex -------- Message original -------- Sujet: FW: 88th IETF - Working Group/BOF/IRTF Scheduling Date : Fri, 23 Aug 2013 10:52:48 +0100 De : Adrian Farrel Répondre à : Pour : Here we go again. Only a few weeks back from Berlin and it is time to prepare for Vancouver. Adrian > -----Original Message----- From: wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of IETF Agenda Sent: 23 > August 2013 00:55 To: Working Group Chairs Cc: irsg@irtf.org Subject: > 88th IETF - Working Group/BOF/IRTF Scheduling > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > 88th IETF – Vancouver, BC, Canada Meeting Dates: November 3 – 8, > 2013 > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF meetings start Monday morning and run through Friday afternoon > (13:30). > > We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups, BOFs, > and Research Groups starting today. The milestones and deadlines for > scheduling-related activities are as follows: > > NOTE: cutoff dates are subject to change. > > - 2013-08-19 (Week of): Working Group and BOF scheduling begins. To > request a Working Group session, use the IETF Meeting Session Request > Tool. (updated from 5 August). - 2013-09-23 (Monday): Cutoff date for > requests to schedule Working Group meetings at UTC 24:00. To request > a Working Group session, use the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. - > 2013-09-23 (Monday): Cutoff date for BOF proposal requests to Area > Directors at UTC 24:00. To request a BOF, please see instructions on > Requesting a BOF. - 2013-09-26 (Thursday): Cutoff date for Area > Directors to approve BOFs at UTC 24:00. - 2013-10-03 (Thursday): > Preliminary agenda published for comment. - 2013-10-07 (Monday): > Cutoff date for requests to reschedule Working Group and BOF meetings > UTC 24:00. - 2013-10-11 (Friday): Final agenda to be published. - > 2013-10-23 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC > 24:00, upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. - > 2013-10-28 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 24:00, > upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. - 2013-12-06 > (Friday): Proceedings submission cutoff date by UTC 24:00, upload > using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. - 2013-12-25 > (Wednesday): Proceedings submission corrections cutoff date by UTC > 24:00, upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool. > > Submitting Requests for Working Group and BOF Sessions > > Please submit requests to schedule your Working Group sessions using > the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for > submitting all of the information that the Secretariat requires to > schedule your sessions. > > The URL for the tool is: > > https://pub.ietf.org/sreq/ > > Please send requests to schedule your BOF sessions to > agenda@ietf.org. Please include the acronym of your BOF in the > subject line of the message, and include all of the information > specified in item (4) of "Requesting Meeting Sessions at IETF > Meetings" in the body. (This document is included below.) > > Submitting Session Agendas > > For the convenience of meeting attendees, we ask that you submit the > agendas for your Working Group sessions as early as possible. Draft > Working Group agendas are due Wednesday, October 23rd, 2013 at UTC > 24:00. Revised Working Group agendas are due no later than Monday, > October 28, 2013 at UTC 24:00. The proposed agenda for a BOF session > should be submitted along with your request for a session. Please be > sure to copy your Area Director on that message. > > Please submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions using the > "IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool," a Web-based tool for making > your meeting agenda, minutes, and presentation slides available to > the community before, during, and after an IETF meeting. If you are > a BOF chair, then you may use the tool to submit a revised agenda as > well as other materials for your BOF once the BOF has been approved. > > The URL for the tool is: > > https://pub.ietf.org/proceedings/ > > Additional information about this tool is available at: > > http://www.ietf.org/instructions/meeting_materials_tool.html > > Agendas submitted via the tool will be available to the public on the > "IETF Meeting Materials" webpage as soon as they are submitted. > > The URL for the "IETF 88 Meeting Materials" Web page is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/88/materials.html > > If you are a Working Group chair, then you already have accounts on > the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool" and the "IETF Meeting > Materials Management Tool." The same User ID and password will work > for both tools. If you are a BOF chair who is not also a Working > Group chair, then you will be given an account on the "IETF Meeting > Materials Management Tool" when your BOF has been approved. If you > require assistance in using either tool, or wish to report a bug, > then please send a message to: ietf-action@ietf.org. > ============================================================== = For > your convenience, comprehensive information on requesting meeting > sessions at IETF 88 is presented below: > > 1. Requests to schedule Working Group sessions should be submitted > using the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for > submitting all of the information required by the Secretariat to > schedule your sessions. The URL for the tool is: > > https://pub.ietf.org/sreq/ > > Instructions for using the tool are available at: > > http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html > > If you require an account on this tool, or assistance in using it, > then please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org. If you are > unable to use the tool, then you may send your request via e-mail to > agenda@ietf.org, with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). > > Requests to schedule BOF sessions must be sent to agenda@ietf.org > with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). > > When submitting a Working Group or BOF session request by e-mail, > please include the Working Group or BOF acronym in the Subject line. > > 2. BOFs will NOT be scheduled unless the Area Director approves the > BOF. The proponents behind a BOF need to contact a relevant Area > Director, preferably well in advance of the BOF approval deadline > date. The AD needs to have the full name of the BOF, its acronym, > suggested names of chairs, an agenda, full description of the BOF and > the information covered in item 4. Please read RFC 5434 for > instructions on how to drive a successful BOF effort. The approval > depends on, for instance, Internet-Drafts and list discussion on the > suggested topic. BOF agenda requests, if approved, will be submitted > to the IETF Secretariat by the ADs. > > 3. A Working Group may request either one or two sessions. If your > Working Group requires more than two sessions, then your request must > be approved by an Area Director. Additional sessions will be > assigned, based on availability, after Monday, October 7, 2013, the > cut-off date for requests to reschedule a session. > > 4. You MUST provide the following information before a Working Group > or BOF session will be scheduled: > > a. Working Group or BOF full name with acronym in brackets: > > b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: > > c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: > > d. Expected Attendance: > > e. Special requests: > > f. Number of sessions: > > g. Length of session: - 1 hour - 1 1/2 hours - 2 hours - 2 1/2 hours > > For more information on scheduling Working Group and BOF sessions, > please refer to RFC 2418 (BCP 25), "IETF Working Group Guidelines and > Procedures" (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt). > ============================================================== = For > your convenience please find here a list of the IETF Area Directors > with their e-mail addresses: > > IETF Chair Jari Arkko > > Applications Area (app) Barry Leiba Pete > Resnick > > Internet Area (int) Brian Haberman Ted > Lemon > > Operations & Management Area (ops) Benoit Claise > Joel Jaeggli > > Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area (rai) Gonzalo > Camarillo Richard Barnes > > > Routing Area (rtg) Stewart Bryant Adrian Farrel > > > Security Area (sec) Stephen Farrell Sean > Turner > > Transport Area (tsv) Martin Stiemerling > Spencer Dawkins > > =========================================================== 87th IETF > Meeting Attendance Numbers > > 6lo - 127 6man - 166 6tsch BoF - 101 abfab - 22 alto - 73 appsawg - > 98 aqm BoF - 86 avtcore - 64 avtext - 37 behave - 61 bmwg - 20 ccamp > - 53 ccamp (2nd session) - 59 cdni - 73 cdni (2nd session) - 38 cfrg > (RG) - 40 clue - 46 clue (2nd session) - 33 conex - 67 core - 107 > core (2nd session) - 46 dane - 92 dhc (joint session with sunset4) - > 110 dhc (2nd session) - 54 dice BoF - 112 dime - 17 dmarc BoF - 47 > dmm - 30 dnsop - 116 dnssdext BoF - 137 dtnrg (RG) - 44 dtnrg (RG) > (2nd session) - 44 ecrit - 45 eman - 43 emu - 36 forces - 69 grow - > 63 homenet - 128 httpauth - 59 httpbis - 93 httpbis (2nd session) - > 72 i2rs - 257 iccrg (RG) - 68 iccrg (RG) (2nd session) - 77 icnrg > (RG) - 86 idr - 64 insipid - 35 intarea (AG) - 93 ipfix - 35 ippm - > 64 iprbis (BoF) - 26 ipsecme - 48 IRTF Open Meeting - 121 isis - 28 > jose - 55 json - 36 karp - 31 kitten - 25 l2vpn - 64 l3vpn - 81 lmap > - 76 lwig - 55 manet - 49 mboned - 12 mif - 41 mile - 43 mmusic - 76 > mmusic (2nd session) - 85 mpls - 129 mpls (2nd session) - 78 mptcp - > 108 multimob - 29 ncrg (RG) - 38 netconf - 52 netext - 40 netmod - > 52 nfsv4 - 22 nmrg (RG) - 59 nsc BoF - 281 nvo3 - 182 nwcrg (PRG) - > 49 oauth - 62 opsawg - 62 opsec - 52 ospf - 21 p2psip - 20 paws - 22 > pce - 82 pcp - 29 pcp (2nd session) - 40 pim - 18 posh BoF - 87 ppsp > - 14 precis - 19 pwe3 - 33 radext - 22 rmcat - 91 rtcweb - 127 rtcweb > (2nd session) - 132 rtgarea (AG) - 118 rtgwg - 51 saag (AG) - 148 > sacm - 45 scim - 26 sdnrg (RG) - 288 sidr - 62 sidr (2nd session) - > 58 siprec - 27 softwire - 78 status BoF - 214 stir - 126 stox - 34 > sunset4 - 99 sunset4 (joint session with dhc) - 110 tcmtf BoF - 89 > tcpm - 68 tictoc - 22 tls - 63 trill - 31 tsvarea (AG) - 112 tsvwg - > 59 tsvwg (2nd session) - 50 urnbis - 9 v6ops - 110 v6ops (2nd > session) - 118 websec - 68 weirds - 65 xrblock - 26 _______________________________________________ routing-discussion mailing list routing-discussion@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/routing-discussion From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 04:11:04 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F32D21F9EC4 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 04:11:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o7MTQ+thIUse for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 04:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E882E21F99F3 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 04:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.3) with ESMTP id r7UBAvVX022780 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 13:10:57 +0200 Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r7UBAvQF013352 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 13:10:57 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (is010446-4.intra.cea.fr [10.8.33.116]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.2) with ESMTP id r7UBAq5S015177 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 13:10:56 +0200 Message-ID: <52207DBC.60601@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 13:10:52 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "its@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [its] Fwd: Mailman service interruption yesterday X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 11:11:04 -0000 For your information. It may be that if you sent email around Wednesday, August 28th, 2013, on the ITS at IETF email list (as well as any other email lists at ietf.org) - that message may have got dropped by mailman because of error. Alex -------- Message original -------- Sujet: Mailman service interruption yesterday Date : Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:16:44 -0700 De : Glen Répondre à : Pour : Greetings: This notification is being sent to the general community at the request of the IAOC. Yesterday the IETF experienced a 5.5-hour service outage on its Mailman list processor, beginning at approximately 1530PDT yesterday. In this failure, Mailman started dropping messages, rather than bouncing them, as it should have done. AMS received alerts from IETF members that mail was not flowing correctly. Following the initial alert, AMS staff logged in to the system, and were able to analyze the problem and effect resolution. Mailman service was restored and verified. Because of the nature of this outage, AMS was not, unfortunately, able to recover the lost email messages themselves. We searched the mail logs, and sent notifications to all the senders that he was able to locate in the log during the outage period, asking those individuals to resend their email messages. Service has been up and running continuously since 2100PDT yesterday, and no further outages have been observed. No other services were impacted or interrupted during this time. The point here is that if you sent email messages to IETF lists during the outage period, they were not processed, and should be resent, to ensure proper delivery. I remind everyone that AMS - the IETF Secretariat - is always reachable at "ietf-action@ietf.org", and I encourage everyone to contact that address when there are problems. Emails sent there are tracked by the IETF's ticketing system, and reach the AMS IETF IT Staff directly. If mail itself is the issue, our out-of-band webform at http://www.ietf.org/contact.html as a backup method of contact. Note, however, that neither I nor members of my staff are generally on *this* list, so emails sent to this, the general IETF discussion list, will only reach us after many delays, if at all. Please note and keep a copy of the correct addresses to use to reach us, shown above, if you need to. Thank you for your patience during this outage. Glen Barney IT Director AMS (IETF Secretariat) From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com Fri Aug 30 10:54:25 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A30521E808F for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.734 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.734 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id htTFkz9sWhOn for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (smtp4-g21.free.fr [IPv6:2a01:e0c:1:1599::13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA3821F9928 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [82.239.213.32]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69D04C80C9 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 19:54:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5220DC40.2010605@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 19:54:08 +0200 From: Alexandru Petrescu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130801 Thunderbird/17.0.8 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 130830-1, 30/08/2013), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Subject: [its] Hotel Registration for next IETF Vancouver X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 17:54:25 -0000 Hi all, As you know the next IETF meeting is in Vancouver, November 3rd-8th. The hotel registration is at http://www.ietf.org/meeting/88/hotel.html Register early to take advantage of IETF negotiated prices. (one could find even cheaper but the above is already a very convenient deal for a typical IETFer) Alex From alison@she-devel.com Fri Aug 30 22:59:01 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2585B21E80C8 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:59:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45l99lxZPJmj for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-f169.google.com (mail-ie0-f169.google.com [209.85.223.169]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7277D21E80BF for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ie0-f169.google.com with SMTP id tp5so271475ieb.0 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:58:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Ke2Wxxa6Jeonx7yidpZ7LXViBkC5qNjb3m+nUtLkFSc=; b=cSmYFlRw7Ed3qLBpLViiV+LYZZWAArMEnKhC0iVVz2Lf99FEErT9u+VBa/n5yONfZK QNfbIskI8xYx8xbT25vwz+7RPMcQK6xDLijJYAVXsGyzfMZNsxJKK4h/xxBa69+7P+To 0UJEGEzUk6MSQSqsiBeIs5lWATpNAgiYRTJNXwv/iHXxfhgaiznLk8sm+iiunnD2/q4W cwMVVOzo8aZyaoWHusEwQVGj2rRiOhRQ+LtTHFhirBTpYHxeNRhbKcG4FbuHZt2KNEQn DX6mmChtzinSaggbftc2OPMIWGKCZ3lFHLgaYSw60yU8mjojZSjpBW8G/mnpOVXvZYV3 17iA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnx2RLhGfLuVdyZ9sOcThqbtn8/FwiNu8bLU/rAx9s/LTpvk3SeaQJJiavJWofe6bWk5g/h MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.9.72 with SMTP id x8mr5025507iga.19.1377928735737; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.152.71 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:58:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2011b4adda20441cae929d80c187a123@1857> References: <2011b4adda20441cae929d80c187a123@1857> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:58:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: Alison Chaiken To: "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Subject: [its] Fwd: NEW SAE/IEEE Cyber Security Event Announced! X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Intelligent Transportation Systems discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2013 05:59:01 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Events - SAE International Date: 30 Aug 2013 21:01:47 -0400 Subject: NEW SAE/IEEE Cyber Security Event Announced! To: alison@she-devel.com Is this email not displaying correctly? View on Mobile Phone | View as Web page "" New CyberSecurity Event Announced! As consumer demand for connected devices increases, traditional transportation manufacturers will by default become manufacturers of connected devices. Because these devices will become subject to the same cyber threats with which IT industry have long been accustomed to, transportation sector companies will need to design systems, processes, and policies from the beginning with a security concept in mind. SAE International and IEEE have collaborated on creating a CyberSecurity for the Transportation Industry Symposium, which will primarily focus on the critical issues in securing current and future networked vehicles, manned and unmanned, moving on land and in the air. Experts from the aerospace, automotive, commercial vehicle and rail industries will address the standards and best practices, cutting-edge technologies and research for developing comprehensive solutions to this issue. Regulatory agencies will discuss recent relevant developments in cybersecurity policies, directives, regulations, guidelines, and memorandums for transportation. The goal of this one day forum is to address: *What are cybersecurity implications for my product or services? *What cyber risks are real and what are fictitious? *Are there common cybersecurity issues between my industry and other areas of transportation? *What are the best strategies of collaboration to meet the growing concerns of consumers? For more information or to register for this event, visit sae.org/events/cyber today! SAE International | 400 Commonwealth Drive | Warrendale, PA 15096-0001 USA | Contact Us SAE believes you will benefit from this information. If you would like to be removed from future SAE email communications, click here to maintain your preferences . For details on SAE's commitment to privacy, please read our Privacy Policy . Connect with SAE International Connect with SAE Members -- Alison Chaiken alison@she-devel.com 650-279-5600 http://{she-devel.com, exerciseforthereader.org} It's a bug that cars were invented before computers. -- Eric Schmidt