From nobody Tue Jul 2 06:41:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A60D12009E for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 06:41:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cKTCGTuLOmfL for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 06:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88027120075 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 06:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x62DfUs9015218; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:41:30 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 99ED5207483; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:41:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C02220729E; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:41:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x62DfUTC029370; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:41:30 +0200 To: Tijink Jasja References: <4248c089-72e6-5f90-4bd3-8edfe9c2abbd@gmail.com> Cc: "its@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <51d3f62a-3660-e720-6c5f-ae9e6c564ad3@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:41:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] BSM and other J2735 2016 messages free web decoders at ASN1 Playground and Marben X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 13:41:35 -0000 Jasja, I need to identify what are the ASN1 differences between J2735 and ISO addGrpC. OSS.com's ASN1 playground programmer indicates that the grammar files differ in size. But that is not a criterion, since the contents may be same but with more or less comments. A TLC manufacturer indicates they might be using the J2735 grammar instead (the 2016 version, paying). I want to make sure that what TLC manufacturer uses is the right way to do. Alex Le 03/04/2019 à 13:30, Tijink Jasja a écrit : > Hi Alexandre, > > please do consult this page: > > https://www.tc278.eu/cits > > It provides links to the ASN.1 modules for the CEN ISO standards on IVI > (ISO TS 19321) and SPAT/MAP/SSM SRM (ISO TS 19091). > > For example the addGrpC modules of ISO 19091 for use with ETSI TS > 103 301 are available here: > > https://standards.iso.org/iso/ts/19091/addgrp_c > > They notably include an excerpt of the J2735_2016 module you need. > > Regards Jasja > > *Von:*its *Im Auftrag von *Alexandre Petrescu > *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 3. April 2019 13:00 > *An:* its@ietf.org > *Betreff:* [ipwave] BSM and other J2735 2016 messages free web decoders > at ASN1 Playground and Marben > > Hi, > > The good news: since a few days the freely available BSM and other J2735 > decoders at ASN1 Playground do the year 2016 version, as opposed to the > earlier 2009 version.  The similar Marben tool does it since some time > now.  Having two of them is very useful to check interoperability of > BSMs.  One can capture a BSM with wireshark and then try to decode it on > ASN1 Playground and on Marben tool: both should give same result. > > https://asn1.io/asn1playground/ > > https://www.marben-products.com/decoder-asn1-automotive/ > > The continuity of the negative aspect: neither ASN1 Playground nor > Marben offer the year 2016 BSM grammar ('ASN1 specificatinon'), which > stays a confidential info.  Only the 2009 version of the BSM grammar is > freely available. > > Lack of open availability of the J2735 grammar has a negative side.  The > side effect is in Europe. > > In Europe one is used to develop open source V2X messaging.  The ETSI > spec of CAM, DENM and a few others is open, which includes their > grammars.  The asn1c open source software is fed by these grammars. For > these reasons, there are many software packages doing V2X messaging > available on github.  All come from Europe. > > However, for traffic lights communication (not CAM, nor DENM) the > situation is a bit different.  ETSI defines 'SPAT-EM' which is a sort of > ASN1 container of the SPAT message (like in C #include). Thus, whereas > the 'SPAT-EM' has open grammar, it contains the SPAT grammar which is > closed.  So one cant implement it with open source. > > The conditions of getting that SPAT grammar are difficult for many > people: fork about 100 eur for the pdf, but also some check to sign some > complex law agreements about where you could talk about it, or not (SAE > wants all to come to them).  These conditions translate in very hard to > make decisions when an implementer wants to put software in some car > (should put the source code in car, or not). > > There is another negative side effect about this, but this concerns SAE > being potentially hurt.  SAE does not want this grammar to be open.  But > I can buy it, enter it manually on that web page (asn1 playground), and > that server will read it.  It will probably store it in a temporary > file, or cache.  I am not sure SAE understands this side effect, but it > can happen.  This is what SAE should care about with respect to J2735 > openness.  One can learn from the youtube and content availability > example (initially youtube did not want their content to be > downloadable, but then videodownloadhelper appeared, and so youtube > added a QR code: you still get the content but it's tagged). > > Note it is possible to implement the 2009 version freely, maybe extend > it in an SDO that uses open specifications, even though it wont be > compatible with the SAE 2016 version. > > Alex > > > > > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail > immediately. > From nobody Tue Jul 2 11:45:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A941206E0 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:45:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKECUduXg1JS for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BF981206D3 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A62300AE7 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:26:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id rtG5kPA7CS78 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (unknown [138.88.156.37]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0EBE300AFF for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:26:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <238D4E8C-82D8-4AA7-A79E-DF518F9A2913@vigilsec.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 14:45:22 -0400 To: its X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] DRAFT IPWAVE Agenda for IETF 105 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 18:45:28 -0000 Agenda of the IPWAVE WG meeting at IETF 105 in Montreal, CA Tuesday, 11:30 to 12:00 in Sainte-Catherine Room 11:30 Administrativia .......................................... 5 min Presenter: IPWAVE WG Chairs ** IPWAVE WG documents 11:40 Transmission of IPv6 Packets over IEEE 802.11 Networks ... 5 min in mode Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set Presenter: Nabil Benamar Draft: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 Goal: Resolve any issues raised by the IESG 11:45 IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): ... 10 min Problem Statement and Use Cases Presenter: Jaehoon Paul Jeong Draft: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 Goal: Resolve any issues for WG Last Call ** HACKATHON report 11:35 Implementing IPWAVE Basic Protocols ...................... 5 min Presenter: Jaehoon Paul Jeong 11:55 Any other business ........................................ 5 min From nobody Wed Jul 3 00:14:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66637120722 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:14:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oPfj6jr06XHo for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78B641201E2 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x637DtKF026240 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:13:55 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B2CF32027E8 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:13:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93A0201D5B for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:13:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x637Dtnu012089 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:13:55 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <4248c089-72e6-5f90-4bd3-8edfe9c2abbd@gmail.com> <51d3f62a-3660-e720-6c5f-ae9e6c564ad3@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <72709efb-72f9-f5ef-7819-c552139f8ebe@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 09:13:55 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <51d3f62a-3660-e720-6c5f-ae9e6c564ad3@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] BSM and other J2735 2016 messages free web decoders at ASN1 Playground and Marben X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 07:14:00 -0000 I am told by OSS.com's ASN Playground programmer that: the ISO ASN grammar is smaller than J2735 ASN because it only contains definitions of SPAT, MapData, SRM and SSM. It does not contain BSM. So, the only place one can find BSM grammar is in J2735 2016 (paying) and J2735 2009 (free) versions. Alex Le 02/07/2019 à 15:41, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > Jasja, > > I need to identify what are the ASN1 differences between J2735 and ISO > addGrpC. > > OSS.com's ASN1 playground programmer indicates that the grammar files > differ in size.  But that is not a criterion, since the contents may be > same but with more or less comments. > > A TLC manufacturer indicates they might be using the J2735 grammar > instead (the 2016 version, paying). > > I want to make sure that what TLC manufacturer uses is the right way to do. > > Alex > > Le 03/04/2019 à 13:30, Tijink Jasja a écrit : >> Hi Alexandre, >> >> please do consult this page: >> >> https://www.tc278.eu/cits >> >> It provides links to the ASN.1 modules for the CEN ISO standards on >> IVI (ISO TS 19321) and SPAT/MAP/SSM SRM (ISO TS 19091). >> >> For example the addGrpC modules of ISO 19091 for use with ETSI TS >> 103 301 are available here: >> >> https://standards.iso.org/iso/ts/19091/addgrp_c >> >> They notably include an excerpt of the J2735_2016 module you need. >> >> Regards Jasja >> >> *Von:*its *Im Auftrag von *Alexandre Petrescu >> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 3. April 2019 13:00 >> *An:* its@ietf.org >> *Betreff:* [ipwave] BSM and other J2735 2016 messages free web >> decoders at ASN1 Playground and Marben >> >> Hi, >> >> The good news: since a few days the freely available BSM and other >> J2735 decoders at ASN1 Playground do the year 2016 version, as opposed >> to the earlier 2009 version.  The similar Marben tool does it since >> some time now.  Having two of them is very useful to check >> interoperability of BSMs.  One can capture a BSM with wireshark and >> then try to decode it on ASN1 Playground and on Marben tool: both >> should give same result. >> >> https://asn1.io/asn1playground/ >> >> https://www.marben-products.com/decoder-asn1-automotive/ >> >> The continuity of the negative aspect: neither ASN1 Playground nor >> Marben offer the year 2016 BSM grammar ('ASN1 specificatinon'), which >> stays a confidential info.  Only the 2009 version of the BSM grammar >> is freely available. >> >> Lack of open availability of the J2735 grammar has a negative side. >> The side effect is in Europe. >> >> In Europe one is used to develop open source V2X messaging.  The ETSI >> spec of CAM, DENM and a few others is open, which includes their >> grammars.  The asn1c open source software is fed by these grammars. >> For these reasons, there are many software packages doing V2X >> messaging available on github.  All come from Europe. >> >> However, for traffic lights communication (not CAM, nor DENM) the >> situation is a bit different.  ETSI defines 'SPAT-EM' which is a sort >> of ASN1 container of the SPAT message (like in C #include). Thus, >> whereas the 'SPAT-EM' has open grammar, it contains the SPAT grammar >> which is closed.  So one cant implement it with open source. >> >> The conditions of getting that SPAT grammar are difficult for many >> people: fork about 100 eur for the pdf, but also some check to sign >> some complex law agreements about where you could talk about it, or >> not (SAE wants all to come to them).  These conditions translate in >> very hard to make decisions when an implementer wants to put software >> in some car (should put the source code in car, or not). >> >> There is another negative side effect about this, but this concerns >> SAE being potentially hurt.  SAE does not want this grammar to be >> open.  But I can buy it, enter it manually on that web page (asn1 >> playground), and that server will read it.  It will probably store it >> in a temporary file, or cache.  I am not sure SAE understands this >> side effect, but it can happen.  This is what SAE should care about >> with respect to J2735 openness.  One can learn from the youtube and >> content availability example (initially youtube did not want their >> content to be downloadable, but then videodownloadhelper appeared, and >> so youtube added a QR code: you still get the content but it's tagged). >> >> Note it is possible to implement the 2009 version freely, maybe extend >> it in an SDO that uses open specifications, even though it wont be >> compatible with the SAE 2016 version. >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> >> The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and >> confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person >> who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his >> employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is >> informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents >> thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the >> e-mail immediately. >> > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Wed Jul 3 01:06:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A93912069D for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 01:06:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id drFcrGB55oh9 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 01:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68AC41201C9 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 01:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6386lOk014983 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:06:47 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CA9C202E75 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821102027E8 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6386laO019555 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:06:47 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <4248c089-72e6-5f90-4bd3-8edfe9c2abbd@gmail.com> <51d3f62a-3660-e720-6c5f-ae9e6c564ad3@gmail.com> <72709efb-72f9-f5ef-7819-c552139f8ebe@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <6850221a-c43e-5e4c-27e8-3092924b0066@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:06:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <72709efb-72f9-f5ef-7819-c552139f8ebe@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] BSM and other J2735 2016 messages free web decoders at ASN1 Playground and Marben X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 08:06:53 -0000 To further clarify, with respect to my and others' comments. I stand re-corrected: it is indeed possible to write open source V2X stack in Europe, starting from freely available open source asn1c software and ISO addGrp and ETSI ITS ASN grammars, for CAM/DENM/MAP/SPAT/SRM/SSM. I stand clarified about this, and I am happy I learned this on this email list at IETF. Previously I thought it was not possible because of SPAT. SPAT ASN spec is open at ISO. For US the situation is different: as opposed to EU it needs BSM instead of CAM. The J2735 BSM spec is paying in its 2016 version, and free in its 2009 version. These two versions are incompatible. So one cant be sure to write the right V2X stack in US. From an EU TLC manufacturer perspective, the situation is relatively simple and easy to implement cheaply. A TLC would be sold mainly in one or a few particular countries in EU but certainly not in US. So it would never send BSMs. But from an EU car manufacturer perspective, the situation is more complex. An EU car would need to implement both CAM to receive in EU, and BSM to receive in US. The first can be done for free whereas the 2nd must pay for 2016 or free for 2009. Other than the obvious risk of software bloat, that means an open source V2X stack in US would risk to be 'tainted' by some license (if it wants BSM 2016) so it has less chance to take off. That can lead to seggregation, akin to the 'walled gardens' undesirable concept in Internet: certainly certain parties are safe to assume make profit, but the overall profit is much less than if the system were bigger. And akin to it, it makes that vehicular networks cant grow like Internet does. (side note: it is probably for a reason like this that 3GPP Release 16 (5G) V2X apps seems to consider CAM only, and not BSM, as seen in "Study on application layer support for V2X services" at https://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/23_series/23.795/) Alex Le 03/07/2019 à 09:13, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > I am told by OSS.com's ASN Playground programmer that: the ISO ASN > grammar is smaller than J2735 ASN because it only contains definitions > of SPAT, MapData, SRM and SSM.  It does not contain BSM. > > So, the only place one can find BSM grammar is in J2735 2016 (paying) > and J2735 2009 (free) versions. > > Alex > > Le 02/07/2019 à 15:41, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> Jasja, >> >> I need to identify what are the ASN1 differences between J2735 and ISO >> addGrpC. >> >> OSS.com's ASN1 playground programmer indicates that the grammar files >> differ in size.  But that is not a criterion, since the contents may >> be same but with more or less comments. >> >> A TLC manufacturer indicates they might be using the J2735 grammar >> instead (the 2016 version, paying). >> >> I want to make sure that what TLC manufacturer uses is the right way >> to do. >> >> Alex >> >> Le 03/04/2019 à 13:30, Tijink Jasja a écrit : >>> Hi Alexandre, >>> >>> please do consult this page: >>> >>> https://www.tc278.eu/cits >>> >>> It provides links to the ASN.1 modules for the CEN ISO standards on >>> IVI (ISO TS 19321) and SPAT/MAP/SSM SRM (ISO TS 19091). >>> >>> For example the addGrpC modules of ISO 19091 for use with ETSI TS >>> 103 301 are available here: >>> >>> https://standards.iso.org/iso/ts/19091/addgrp_c >>> >>> They notably include an excerpt of the J2735_2016 module you need. >>> >>> Regards Jasja >>> >>> *Von:*its *Im Auftrag von *Alexandre Petrescu >>> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 3. April 2019 13:00 >>> *An:* its@ietf.org >>> *Betreff:* [ipwave] BSM and other J2735 2016 messages free web >>> decoders at ASN1 Playground and Marben >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> The good news: since a few days the freely available BSM and other >>> J2735 decoders at ASN1 Playground do the year 2016 version, as >>> opposed to the earlier 2009 version.  The similar Marben tool does it >>> since some time now.  Having two of them is very useful to check >>> interoperability of BSMs.  One can capture a BSM with wireshark and >>> then try to decode it on ASN1 Playground and on Marben tool: both >>> should give same result. >>> >>> https://asn1.io/asn1playground/ >>> >>> https://www.marben-products.com/decoder-asn1-automotive/ >>> >>> The continuity of the negative aspect: neither ASN1 Playground nor >>> Marben offer the year 2016 BSM grammar ('ASN1 specificatinon'), which >>> stays a confidential info.  Only the 2009 version of the BSM grammar >>> is freely available. >>> >>> Lack of open availability of the J2735 grammar has a negative side. >>> The side effect is in Europe. >>> >>> In Europe one is used to develop open source V2X messaging.  The ETSI >>> spec of CAM, DENM and a few others is open, which includes their >>> grammars.  The asn1c open source software is fed by these grammars. >>> For these reasons, there are many software packages doing V2X >>> messaging available on github.  All come from Europe. >>> >>> However, for traffic lights communication (not CAM, nor DENM) the >>> situation is a bit different.  ETSI defines 'SPAT-EM' which is a sort >>> of ASN1 container of the SPAT message (like in C #include). Thus, >>> whereas the 'SPAT-EM' has open grammar, it contains the SPAT grammar >>> which is closed.  So one cant implement it with open source. >>> >>> The conditions of getting that SPAT grammar are difficult for many >>> people: fork about 100 eur for the pdf, but also some check to sign >>> some complex law agreements about where you could talk about it, or >>> not (SAE wants all to come to them).  These conditions translate in >>> very hard to make decisions when an implementer wants to put software >>> in some car (should put the source code in car, or not). >>> >>> There is another negative side effect about this, but this concerns >>> SAE being potentially hurt.  SAE does not want this grammar to be >>> open.  But I can buy it, enter it manually on that web page (asn1 >>> playground), and that server will read it.  It will probably store it >>> in a temporary file, or cache.  I am not sure SAE understands this >>> side effect, but it can happen.  This is what SAE should care about >>> with respect to J2735 openness.  One can learn from the youtube and >>> content availability example (initially youtube did not want their >>> content to be downloadable, but then videodownloadhelper appeared, >>> and so youtube added a QR code: you still get the content but it's >>> tagged). >>> >>> Note it is possible to implement the 2009 version freely, maybe >>> extend it in an SDO that uses open specifications, even though it >>> wont be compatible with the SAE 2016 version. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and >>> confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The >>> person who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of >>> his employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, >>> is informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents >>> thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the >>> e-mail immediately. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Wed Jul 3 02:43:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AA3120019 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 02:43:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iIMZsVdtbajE for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 02:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE95D12072D for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 02:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x639hgdT195603 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:43:42 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E256201D42 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:43:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33807204F12 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:43:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x639hgQw026262 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:43:42 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <61452b20-9cd1-c9ce-1eb2-ebb090efb8c4@gmail.com> <936d2cd6-5381-8387-cd2d-e8b33cb5dd7a@gmail.com> <28085_1561479785_5D124A69_28085_17908_1_460b369c-3d22-34f1-3734-355bba40dff3@cea.fr> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:43:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <28085_1561479785_5D124A69_28085_17908_1_460b369c-3d22-34f1-3734-355bba40dff3@cea.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Protocols and Architectures for Traffic Lights X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 09:43:48 -0000 excuse me being at the risk of disturbing the group with my personal notes; I promiss you I ponder maybe I will write a draft about this... In Scandinavian countries the protocol to communicate to traffic lights controllers is RSMP with a spec on github. (provided by person at gov't organisaiton through a doc called CEN/TC 278/WG 17 N 207). So the current list of protocols to communicate to traffic lights controllers is: NTCIP (US), UTMC (UK), DIASER (FR), RSMP (Nordic), OCIT (D), IVERA (NL), ISO PRESTO 22951. The SPAT/MAP/SRM/SSM are a whole different class of things. The translation between these two classes is what brings latency. This is what makes that the color of the light a human sees on smartphone or dashboard can be different (even if just for a few moments) from the color of the light seen on reality. Implementers of apps of 'virtual' such colors of traffic lights on smartphones/dashboards are Dynniq, probably NeoGLS, and a colleague. Alex Le 25/06/2019 à 18:22, Alexandre PETRESCU a écrit : > I got more enlightenment from a recognised expert. > > In France, in addition to DIASER there is also LCR protocol for Traffic > Lights. > > In UK there is UTMC protocol. > > NTCIP is acknowledged as a protocol in USA.  Further, it may be > implemented by Thales, a French company. > > -- > Alexandre Petrescu > alexandre.petrescu@cea.fr, tél 0169089223 > > Le 06/06/2019 à 17:18, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> >> For further completeness... >> >> The Dutch version of protocols for Traffic Lights Controllers, in >> addition to IVERA also include iVRI, on the web at >> https://www.crow.nl/thema-s/verkeersmanagement/landelijke-ivri-standaarden >> >> The German OCIT protocol is on the web at www.ocit.org >> >> I continue to wonder what is the protocol used for communicating with >> Traffic Lights Controllers in Italy, and in America? >> >> Alex >> >> Le 06/06/2019 à 05:13, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> >>> For completeness, >>> >>> >>> The complete list of protocols to communication to Traffic Lights >>> Controllers is: DIASER, IVERA, OCIT. >>> >>> Because I learn in Germany and the Czech Republic, the OCIT protocol >>> (not DIASER) may be used for communication to Traffic Lights >>> Controller, with some implementations from Siemens and from Cross. >>> Not known whether OCIT works on IP, and on IPv6. >>> >>> DIASER is known to work on RS232, TCP and UDP.  Seen on IPv4; not >>> known on IPv6.  SEA is a traffic lights controller manufacturer in >>> France that produces some, implements DIASER too.  There are about 10 >>> manufacturers in France (Aximum of Colas, Fareco of Fayat, Lacroix, >>> SEA, others?), all doing DIASER. >>> >>> Basically, if one wants a car to talk to traffic lights controllers >>> with low latenccy, one wants to put 3 protocols in that car. >>> >>> >>> Le 29/01/2019 à 15:04, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>> >>>>   Protocols and Architectures for Traffic Lights >>>>               Januay 29th, 2019 >>>> >>>> >>>> DIASER: a protocol used to communicate to Traffic Lights controllers. >>>> Used in France.  Specified by AFNOR.  Closed and paying specification. >>>> Works on hardware platforms from Lacroix (model Traffy) and Aximum >>>> (model Maestro), and probably others.  Works on serial and on UDP/IP. >>>> Example queries are: "DZ" to reset, "Ck" and "CJ" to query the current >>>> color of lights, C# and CU to get the time spent in a color. >>>> >>>> API WIM 7101, RSGC2: proprietary API interfaces used by organisation >>>> NEAVIA of organisation Lacroix in France; it is used to provide access >>>> to data of traffic lights controllers.  It can be used with DIASER in >>>> a sequence way: a gateway converts from one to another. >>>> >>>> ISO PRESTO 22951: a protocol to communicate with traffic lights >>>> controller, to obtain priority for special vehicles. >>>> >>>> SPAT/SSM/SRM: protocols used by future traffic lights controllers; >>>> specified by SAE in J2735.  The 2009 version is freely available, >>>> whereas the 2016 (non retro-compatible) is paying 100 USD, >>>> approximative.  SPAT is Signal Phase and Timing, whereas SRM is Signal >>>> Request Message. >>>> >>>> SPAT-EM: an European version of SPAT, specified by ETSI, which >>>> encapsulates SPAT.  Free access, but SPAT still paying (free >>>> encapsulated paying). >>>> >>>> IVERA: a protocol used in Netherlands to communicate with Traffic >>>> Lights controllers.  Potentially VLOG is also such a protocol. >>>> >>>> 3G Segnaletica: an organisation in Italy that provides hardware for >>>> controllers for traffic  lights.  Also has models carried in 'mobile' >>>> traffic lights.  It provides a Raspberry Pi to access the traffic >>>> lights data.  The Raspberry Pi uses an API to access the controller >>>> status.  That API uses HTTP. >>>> >>>> Siemens: is an organisation that probably provides hardware for >>>> traffic lights controllers to be used in America (USA). >>>> >>>> Architectures: sketches drawing controller, tri-light bulbs, Internet, >>>> 802.11-OCB, car, API, SPAT. >>>> >>>> Acknowledgements: Daniele Brevi, Bart Netten, Stephane Goeuriot, Sri >>>> Gundavelli, Bruno Cabon, Paul Thorpe. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> its mailing list >>>> its@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Wed Jul 3 11:12:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BA7120447 for ; 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Wed, 03 Jul 2019 11:12:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:11:55 +0100 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , Russ Housley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008db7a6058ccacce0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 18:12:14 -0000 --0000000000008db7a6058ccacce0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear reviewer, Thank you for your comments. Kindly, see my answers in-line below. On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:38 PM Joerg Ott via Datatracker wrote: > Reviewer: Joerg Ott > Review result: On the Right Track > > This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's > ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written > primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the > document's > authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the > IETF > discussion list for information. > > When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this > review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC > tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. > > The draft discusses the most basic operation of IPv6 over IEEE 802.11-OCB, > i.e., a flavour of ad-hoc networks specifically for vehicular connectivity > (formerly > known as IEEE 802.11p). The document mainly covers question of mapping > IPv6 > packets to the MAC layer frames, discusses aspects of address assignment > and > subnets, and neighbour discovery. The core document is rather short but has > extensive appendices. > > There are no clear transport issues in this document. The main relevant > aspect would > be MTU size, which is in line with standard IPv6. But the document > discusses (section 4.2) > that all IPv6 packets should be mapped to the same class of service. So, > there is no > service differentiation expected (diffserv, for example)? > We have not treated this detail in the current document. > > However, I do not consider the document to be really ready because of > structure > and writing clarity. This is surprising for version -46! There is a need > for improvement > to make the document properly understandable by the reader. I am actually > wondering > why this document is sent out for last call given the state the text is in. > The document will be proofred once again before becoming an RFC. > > Detailed comments: > > In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I worry? > There doesn't appear > to be any IPR disclosure. > > p5, 1st line: packet->packets > Are you referring to page 5 or paragraph 5? > > The use of RFC 2026 language needs improvement. > I didn't get your point. Would you please clarify on how we can tackle this issue, if any? > > sect. 4.4: transition time is not defined > The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platforms can only use the former (MAC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (native x86) can use RFC8064. The majority of IP-OBUs are embedded platforms. I'm not sure whether they can use RFC8064. > "no generic meaning" -- means what? > No generic meaning' - means that the bits in the Interface Identifiers are 'opaque'. Earlier, the u/g bits in IID had a significance (it meant 'unique/global'). A concept updated by RFC7136. > This section is confusing. Please describe a concrete sequence of actions. Would you show us how we can improve this section? > > > sect. 4.5: external references for standards are surely the right way. But > the reader may benefit from some informal self-contained description. > > sect. 4.5.2: anythings needs to be said about multicast reception? > > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces)." > further. > > sect. 5: explain briefly how certificates are supposed to work with > variable addresses. > > App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? > > App. G: Ok to show complete packet formats. But then maybe also give > specific examples? > And why do you describe this as capturing what is received rather than how > to construct > something to sent out? > > App. I: reliable multicast used incorrectly > "TBD TBD TBD" > > Nits: "mode.A", "; The", "on another hand", "At application layer" > "attacker can therefore just sit in the near range of vehicles" > "perform attacks without needing to physically break any wall." > "embarking an" > "outdoors public environments" > "attacker sniffers" > "indoor settings" > "eventual conflicts" > "internet" > expand all acronyms, also in the appendices > > Why has sect. 5.3 bullets? > > -- Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --0000000000008db7a6058ccacce0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear reviewer,

Th= ank you for your comments.

Ki= ndly, see my answers in-line below.



On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 5:38 PM Joerg Ott via Datatracker = <noreply@ietf.org<= /a>> wrote:
R= eviewer: Joerg Ott
Review result: On the Right Track

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team&#= 39;s
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document&= #39;s
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the I= ETF
discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org = if you reply to or forward this review.

The draft discusses the most basic operation of IPv6 over IEEE 802.11-OCB,<= br> i.e., a flavour of ad-hoc networks specifically for vehicular connectivity = (formerly
=C2=A0known as IEEE 802.11p). The document mainly covers question of mappin= g IPv6
packets to the MAC layer frames, discusses aspects of address assignment an= d
subnets, and neighbour discovery. The core document is rather short but has=
extensive appendices.

There are no clear transport issues in this document. The main relevant asp= ect would
be MTU size, which is in line with standard IPv6. But the document discusse= s (section 4.2)
that all IPv6 packets should be mapped to the same class of service. So, th= ere is no
service differentiation expected (diffserv, for example)?
<= div>
W= e have not treated this detail in the current document.

=C2=A0

However, I do not consider the document to be really ready because of struc= ture
and writing clarity. This is surprising for version -46! There is a need fo= r improvement
to make the document properly understandable by the reader. I am actually w= ondering
why this document is sent out for last call given the state the text is in.=

The document will be proofred once again before=C2=A0 beco= ming an RFC.

Detailed comments:

In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I worry? There= doesn't appear
to be any IPR disclosure.

p5, 1st line: packet->packets

Are you referring to page= 5 or paragraph 5?

The use of RFC 2026 language needs improvement.

I didn'= t get your point. Would you please clarify on how we can tackle this issue,= if any?

sect. 4.4: transition time is not defined

= The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platforms can only use the former (M= AC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (native x86) can use RFC8064. The m= ajority of IP-OBUs are embedded platforms.=C2=A0 I'm not sure whether they can= use RFC8064.

=C2=A0
"no generic meaning" -- means what?

No generic meaning' - means that the bit= s in the Interface Identifiers are 'opaque'.=C2=A0 Earlier, the u/g= bits in IID had a significance (it meant 'unique/global').=C2=A0A concept update= d by RFC7136.

=C2=A0
This section is confusing. Please describe a concrete sequence of actions.

Would you show us how we can improve this section?


sect. 4.5: external references for standards are surely the right way. But<= br> the reader may benefit from some informal self-contained description.

sect. 4.5.2: anythings needs to be said about multicast reception?

sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces o= f
vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces)."= ; further.

sect. 5: explain briefly how certificates are supposed to work with variabl= e addresses.

App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"?

App. G: Ok to show complete packet formats. But then maybe also give specif= ic examples?
And why do you describe this as capturing what is received rather than how = to construct
something to sent out?

App. I: reliable multicast used incorrectly
"TBD TBD TBD"

Nits: "mode.A", "; The", "on another hand", &= quot;At application layer"
"attacker can therefore just sit in the near range of vehicles" "perform attacks without needing to physically break any wall." "embarking an"
"outdoors public environments"
"attacker sniffers"
"indoor settings"
"eventual conflicts"
"internet"
expand all acronyms, also in the appendices

Why has sect. 5.3 bullets?



--

Best Regards<= div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">
Nabil Benamar
Associate Profe= ssor
De= partment of Computer Sciences
<= font color=3D"#0b5394">School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--0000000000008db7a6058ccacce0-- From nobody Wed Jul 3 23:05:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D017A12012A; Wed, 3 Jul 2019 23:05:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Roni Even via Datatracker To: Cc: ietf@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roni Even Message-ID: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 23:05:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 06:05:37 -0000 Reviewer: Roni Even Review result: Ready with Issues I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 Reviewer: Roni Even Review Date: 2019-07-03 IETF LC End Date: None IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 Summary: The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an issue Major issues: Minor issues: this is about my previous comment. The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose egress interface is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; there is a risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where vehicles typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indoors settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools such as dynamically changing MAC addresses" so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text saying that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative . A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy is to change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up" I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the MAC address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to address privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic changing of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example for when to change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC address is to be determined. To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks are more important for outdoor public environment and it is left for implementations to decide if and how to address it. Nits/editorial comments: From nobody Thu Jul 4 01:02:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5B01201AF; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 01:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B0Z_gzsQTA5u; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 01:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E9A21201A3; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 01:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x64829jH047600; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:02:09 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 41B3920548D; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:02:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E897201EC5; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:02:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x64829fL006098; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:02:09 +0200 From: Alexandre Petrescu To: Roni Even , gen-art@ietf.org References: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: its@ietf.org, "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" Message-ID: <5eb32bb2-fc24-8cbc-1719-6e41fd4fb3a6@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:02:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 - privacy X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 08:02:15 -0000 Le 04/07/2019 à 08:05, Roni Even via Datatracker a écrit : > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review result: Ready with Issues > > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. > > For more information, please see the FAQ at > > . > > Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review Date: 2019-07-03 > IETF LC End Date: None > IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 > > Summary: > The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an issue > > Major issues: > > Minor issues: > > this is about my previous comment. > The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose egress interface > is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of > data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; there is a > risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where vehicles > typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indoors > settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools such as > dynamically changing MAC addresses" > so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text saying > that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative . > > A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy is to > change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up" > > I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the MAC > address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." > > So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to address > privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic changing > of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example for when to > change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC address > is to be determined. > > To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks are more > important for outdoor public environment and it is left for implementations to > decide if and how to address it. Thank you for the comment. In a sense, I agree with you: normative text is always helpful for implementer. S/he will know what method for privacy of IID MUST be implemented, and do it. However, I do not want to work on this because of the following: (1) the random MAC generation has an unknown IPR status (to me) and (2) the 64bit IID length is imposed. This draft imposes a 64bit for the IID length. Given that, it is impossible for me personally to make sense about what should be implemented for privacy for IID. I have several methods in mind, and I can get help from implementer to test and demonstrate. But not within the upper and lower bounds of the 64bit boundaries. Shorter than 64bit IIDs (like ::1, or ::5) are easier to manipulate by humans when building systems, and they can be obfuscated as well: instead of saying '1' one can say '2' so the listener is fooled, provided a secret agreement between the ends is in place. Also, longer IIDs (like ::1:2:3:4:5) resist better to brute force algorithm attacks. There is a method for generating the MAC address in a more random manner, and use it to form a 64bit IID. That method is implemented widely in Windows on PC and on Windows Phone. There is also an ETSI standard that suggests the same. This draft IPv6-over-OCB has that method in mind when it talks about changing the MAC address each time a system boots up. However, I do not know the IPR status of that method. I would like to know it, because personally I dont want to work on documents that are IPRed by other organisations. It is also for this reason that it says 'a possibility is', and not 'MUST do'. Finally, having retired my name from the author list, please consider these comments as an individual opinion. The fact that I state it with certainty does not mean any form of authority on the document. There is a WG for authority, an Editor, etc. (see IPWAVE WG). I do not know what others think about privacy and IIDs and IPv6-over-OCB? Alex > > Nits/editorial comments: > > > From nobody Thu Jul 4 07:43:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0783F1200B1; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:42:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r-26wH6QwH3L; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out2.in.tum.de [131.159.0.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 653EA12007A; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id C55BD1C0354; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:42:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F13EC1C034C; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:42:28 +0200 (CEST) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_latrx@fff.in.tum.de) To: Nabil Benamar , Joerg Ott Cc: IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, Russ Housley , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , tsv-art@ietf.org References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 16:42:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 14:42:39 -0000 Hi, quick responses inline: > > There are no clear transport issues in this document. The main > relevant aspect would > be MTU size, which is in line with standard IPv6. But the document > discusses (section 4.2) > that all IPv6 packets should be mapped to the same class of service. > So, there is no > service differentiation expected (diffserv, for example)? > > > We have not treated this detail in the current document. Indeed. But the current document states that *all* IPv6 packets MUST be mapped to the same class of service. You should leave room for refining this in the future since I would expect different traffic classes to appear. > However, I do not consider the document to be really ready because > of structure > and writing clarity. This is surprising for version -46! There is a > need for improvement > to make the document properly understandable by the reader. I am > actually wondering > why this document is sent out for last call given the state the text > is in. > > > The document will be proofred once again before  becoming an RFC. I am sorry but this is not acceptable. You are asking other people to read the document and comment on it. As such, we may certainly expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC. This document clearly is not. > Detailed comments: > > In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I > worry? There doesn't appear > to be any IPR disclosure. Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response. > p5, 1st line: packet->packets > > > Are you referring to page 5 or paragraph 5? Page 5. (Otherwise I would write para 5.) > The use of RFC 2026 language needs improvement. > > > I didn't get your point. Would you please clarify on how we can tackle > this issue, if any? RFC 2026 defines the proper use of MAY, MUST, SHOULD. The document does not appear to be consistently using the capitalized words properly in all cases. Just go through the document and check all pieces of this normative language. > sect. 4.4: transition time is not defined > > The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platforms can only use the former > (MAC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (native x86) can use > RFC8064.The majority of IP-OBUs are embedded platforms.  I'm not sure > whether they can use RFC8064. Ahh, this is what you mean by transition time. I assumed that this would refer to the time moving from one point of attachment to another or so. Can you say a bit more to make this clear? > > "no generic meaning" -- means what? > > > No generic meaning' - means that the bits in the Interface Identifiers > are 'opaque'.  Earlier, the u/g bits in IID had a significance (it meant > 'unique/global'). A concept updated by RFC7136. Great. Then specify opaque -- generic has no meaning this in this context. > This section is confusing. Please describe a concrete sequence of > actions. > > > Would you show us how we can improve this section? Well, this should be up to the WG. Just read it and try to understand what it says rather than confirming what you know. But, in general, as a reader I would expect to get a clear recipe with explicit steps. There are two kinds of identifiers: A and B. If you need A, follow these steps: 1., 2., 3., ... If you need B, then ... Here is some guidance when A or B is preferred. Most of this may be in the section but it is hard to extract. > sect. 4.5: external references for standards are surely the right > way. But > the reader may benefit from some informal self-contained description. > > sect. 4.5.2: anythings needs to be said about multicast reception? > > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle > interfaces)." further. > > sect. 5: explain briefly how certificates are supposed to work with > variable addresses. > > App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? > > App. G: Ok to show complete packet formats. But then maybe also give > specific examples? > And why do you describe this as capturing what is received rather > than how to construct > something to sent out? > > App. I: reliable multicast used incorrectly > "TBD TBD TBD" > > Nits: "mode.A", "; The", "on another hand", "At application layer" > "attacker can therefore just sit in the near range of vehicles" > "perform attacks without needing to physically break any wall." > "embarking an" > "outdoors public environments" > "attacker sniffers" > "indoor settings" > "eventual conflicts" > "internet" > expand all acronyms, also in the appendices > > Why has sect. 5.3 bullets? In short: there is A LOT of work to be done before this is ready. Jörg From nobody Thu Jul 4 10:27:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4220F1200E5; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=kaloom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id er-2_ffxQ93h; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CAN01-QB1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr660101.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.66.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24DCD1200FB; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:26:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kaloom.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=I4hOB0Ixyk0ulIDeunwuM6LLTXtcUmaTHkGILWCxCoU=; b=XZCaN1zBtFwfO04h5VjmbEnb3UwxDKtiP6zHGv5QvypGQoYoDWvqVm7Izzqhuk5dI5uIXrX/+tbpTBjt7WFp0HKF5cGtKFLWj9FN0HYZnXSuKFpKf5NgQ63aBzi7oolD5NaY6d2Z5sNEgatGVHJoR9hyxzC3BWXA5R1DQ1Hp6AQ= Received: from YTOPR0101MB1819.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (52.132.45.144) by YTOPR0101MB1948.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (52.132.43.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2052.18; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 17:26:54 +0000 Received: from YTOPR0101MB1819.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::20b6:a749:45f6:12ba]) by YTOPR0101MB1819.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::20b6:a749:45f6:12ba%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2032.019; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 17:26:54 +0000 From: Suresh Krishnan To: Joerg Ott CC: Nabil Benamar , Joerg Ott , IETF Discussion , "its@ietf.org" , Russ Housley , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , "tsv-art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 Thread-Index: AQHVLQbG7ELhjZS6p0iaVIjjv6ZcZKa5O4qAgAFXzwCAAC3vAA== Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 17:26:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Suresh@kaloom.com; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:YTOPR0101MB1948; H:YTOPR0101MB1819.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: kaloom.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 3z3SBqAH2dvIWvs7yJ3nIeR7uJ2ugKUXENUyWJG0DD7lyxtk6xre9vVwIJOK/jTvHKVvEqK37U/FBBAgwk/96+i8o1wjPSpyXjFy+FRap/0Hc6/kHzofpeTuBxxWfzOW/7tP95mpNz6R2uyO+OsBJGpAe6ENl1ErrO6rDlBEDcWVj1cBEdSf0qu0QQMRJvQwhEc5OoUm3mNM4aEV4UbbJfpYa99GASCOZQqZc936uL/PZZ8xad0LAN11WA3GoQiaJ2w/TuKInwMGXwuZp/uHEmtHFNSuGDC/hPAcH9xpGosMoLesAc3pBYOtQ4MrI6BM/BEsg+BCjp+LmBjqPIKOXXKsuE0itUDzvq+ZNoUJdjuXp19WVS3KSGN0waSecLZzhv56et1X/RqdcjdWlPdz5rey3QUNdB4bwu/k0jd5Ii8= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6905D2BA8181934487B94DD092D4589B@CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: kaloom.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 84c6dbf7-11cc-48cb-c6a4-08d700a4ced7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jul 2019 17:26:54.0079 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 47d58e26-f796-48e8-ac40-1c365c204513 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Suresh@kaloom.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: YTOPR0101MB1948 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 17:26:59 -0000 Hi Joerg, I just want to respond to two of your comments. I will let the authors ch= ime in on the other comments. > On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:42 AM, Joerg Ott wrote: > ... > I am sorry but this is not acceptable. You are asking other people > to read the document and comment on it. As such, we may certainly > expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC. > This document clearly is not. Are their specific parts of the document that you are concerned about here = on the clarity front? I have read the document and have not had any clarity= issues (but that might be because I have been reading this for too long). > ... >> Detailed comments: >> In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I >> worry? There doesn't appear >> to be any IPR disclosure. >=20 > Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response. The authors have confirmed that they have filed any necessary IPR disclosur= es as per BCP78/79 as documented in the shepherd writeup. Thanks Suresh= From nobody Thu Jul 4 11:00:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6F2120277 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:59:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dtMJ6uiiocXT for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C561A12023D for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 10:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id g20so4707116ioc.12 for ; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 10:59:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=J6jpwv4O7qH84kW8pul2wfiqqWGHWJbmCDXfa2q8O4Q=; b=kedGgP4dIr3wBiAOGCa/GzB8LW6z7LBbBzmOtmMJ6e9OU3oPJE7H19yykapTa0E/kw +K5rQBTpLgDNijnut57RazZ3Tg7TixieGW8BTeoSfuy9rjdb+VVIytQ7ekiY+orjLvBT 77XATRUr/0EP1XO/+77ZvjVkf+cCZq1Ohyri2jus/cFDumOrtP0wMiZxcJYHm8QlUWl9 hDY+ExZPE6iUA48/dwjP4elCgGdV0bpXgNS9j53oSIIFEwmxP1P5FbE+Uc8j5yvIt/JL bctuU+mkfB+amJfl44YuwJmwL/dY2gN6FfF2Nmd/SFR5MHlDIC3vH84hxNYRh9ghKVQF fNjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=J6jpwv4O7qH84kW8pul2wfiqqWGHWJbmCDXfa2q8O4Q=; b=uKJHMfr6/vTeptN1QaQOOb3Kgke83Ym6DoRZMNVDGj8w/vcFToXKDBj/AtAqr4bjs2 Ij2V8mQWrN33ieMi3QmNWqxyncg8ThqLi5xkwPcF+hRongXUpop/TkekWlayRL0Q0ICw 19KgrbEZfDLcDu6OkUM7G0jHMDi35igYKyK4DIRrL16xgLhi/XvLI9TclA2B2fc/hSwo 2ktxhi1DHsmMOp0wzwQiOzirg3Y0JavpahbO2jQfhZyuUC372b2vAjHERPO0iLERfSGg Y8mpa9YH6Oq6jFcCI7ufPWjHhB+gum/Bwdal9VczD5qRIA9hMeqJ0tELxJqLyTtycib3 5L9g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX15dXhhzRgmG6id6ETV0suoMWEHCDoHXVx+ASHO76kF1l0W97y vwif7dF0D/KWjSwJshesEyGVhw6jP43OFsiJFEfUZw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyBRcm/RI2XsKbHuF7mXr4nIoCMXvvx2SKcTP5iE356QHy86bWivYrO41JbVKzyFqKIFBI9qJ34huQd9tmbUQA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:149:: with SMTP id y9mr50754151jao.76.1562263189888; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 10:59:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 18:59:38 +0100 Message-ID: To: Suresh Krishnan Cc: Joerg Ott , Joerg Ott , IETF Discussion , "its@ietf.org" , Russ Housley , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , "tsv-art@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007ab757058cdebe10" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 17:59:59 -0000 --0000000000007ab757058cdebe10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Suresh, Jorg Thank you for answering the two comments. I would not have said better! On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 6:26 PM Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Hi Joerg, > I just want to respond to two of your comments. I will let the authors > chime in on the other comments. > > > On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:42 AM, Joerg Ott wrote: > > ... > > I am sorry but this is not acceptable. You are asking other people > > to read the document and comment on it. As such, we may certainly > > expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC. > > This document clearly is not. > > Are their specific parts of the document that you are concerned about here > on the clarity front? I have read the document and have not had any clarity > issues (but that might be because I have been reading this for too long). > > > ... > >> Detailed comments: > >> In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I > >> worry? There doesn't appear > >> to be any IPR disclosure. > > > > Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response. > > The authors have confirmed that they have filed any necessary IPR > disclosures as per BCP78/79 as documented in the shepherd writeup. > > Thanks > Suresh -- Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --0000000000007ab757058cdebe10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=C2=A0Suresh, Jorg

Thank you for answering the two comments. I would not have said better!=



On Thu, Jul 4, 201= 9 at 6:26 PM Suresh Krishnan <Suresh@kaloom.com> wrote:
Hi Joerg,
=C2=A0 I just want to respond to two of your comments. I will let the autho= rs chime in on the other comments.

> On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:42 AM, Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de> wrote:
> ...
> I am sorry but this is not acceptable.=C2=A0 You are asking other peop= le
> to read the document and comment on it.=C2=A0 As such, we may certainl= y
> expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC.
> This document clearly is not.

Are their specific parts of the document that you are concerned about here = on the clarity front? I have read the document and have not had any clarity= issues (but that might be because I have been reading this for too long).<= br>
> ...
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Detailed comments:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon.= Should I
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 worry? There doesn't appear
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to be any IPR disclosure.
>
> Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response.

The authors have confirmed that they have filed any necessary IPR disclosur= es as per BCP78/79 as documented in the shepherd writeup.

Thanks
Suresh


--
<= div>

Best Regards

=
Nabil Benamar
Associate Pr= ofessor
Department of Computer Sciences
School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco

<= font color=3D"#0b5394">
--0000000000007ab757058cdebe10-- From nobody Thu Jul 4 12:26:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42461201EF; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 12:26:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xeX2dRGc8BKg; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 12:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out2.in.tum.de [131.159.0.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72E5B120188; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 12:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id CC80E1C0354; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 21:26:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A55B1C034C; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 21:26:01 +0200 (CEST) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_wttge@fff.in.tum.de) To: Suresh Krishnan Cc: Nabil Benamar , Joerg Ott , IETF Discussion , "its@ietf.org" , Russ Housley , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , "tsv-art@ietf.org" References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 21:26:00 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 19:26:08 -0000 Hi, re claritry: given the number of more than nits I found, the document is clearly not ready. And, sure, once you read something a number of times (and were part of the discussion), this clearly has an effect. Re patent jargon: ok. I just looked at the IPR page and didn't see anything come up. It still appears strange to me to use this kind of language in an Internet Draft. Jörg On 04.07.19 19:26, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Hi Joerg, > I just want to respond to two of your comments. I will let the authors chime in on the other comments. > >> On Jul 4, 2019, at 10:42 AM, Joerg Ott wrote: >> ... >> I am sorry but this is not acceptable. You are asking other people >> to read the document and comment on it. As such, we may certainly >> expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC. >> This document clearly is not. > > Are their specific parts of the document that you are concerned about here on the clarity front? I have read the document and have not had any clarity issues (but that might be because I have been reading this for too long). > >> ... >>> Detailed comments: >>> In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I >>> worry? There doesn't appear >>> to be any IPR disclosure. >> >> Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response. > > The authors have confirmed that they have filed any necessary IPR disclosures as per BCP78/79 as documented in the shepherd writeup. > > Thanks > Suresh > From nobody Thu Jul 4 13:32:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D073120232 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:32:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZjPp_HX0mAMa for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7907712023E for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id h6so14955478ioh.3 for ; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 13:32:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lpuo1v7WSeAPK07/Gu9kUmIRUm5me1T9bZ3xGm8G3uI=; b=skW241bxIpwrGs6/KHgoeeikLmyvU97Uca3/lu+TZgh2ziDOc2hmR9XgF/opMEt4Ao GRP4S3erkFvlzqHNcX8Qf0JS1Qt7NDmcffkC2rjGnZsx1Pby0NMpTGTxvHwEIIqRIC2L 1c8uVkMtn1PSAAfMagyEtm3I042ZGi1ltID0pd9uAgqnM8NNnepCMhXe6aSCVq+HwwwG HkIjkw9uMQA6/uxRQp3XiD3DBrknSkhRylkdYzqDlyLmi9npFB7/GCNbHcazG1w5jZXq gUlvrvtOoHuSxXB95jsumlHk5+TUJgsyGz+fOJeBs0RYMp6sh+5ZMo8CBzISeGmyhqUw bLMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lpuo1v7WSeAPK07/Gu9kUmIRUm5me1T9bZ3xGm8G3uI=; b=JeTzCEVTIUpvq96tEbwdj20FpQ8x621S+noRqaoddrL6zHDdbvYdGVN2PzRjkvVWME MdXIa7xnGoXf0GkCzMpuGNg7YsweL+wEVOO6NNzpyf4jBK6eXGS3uRL+fV2h0VbP2Qbb KVRGnmanRwIUngcvnijtKng6jGns3g94RD2scH+RJaJjG2AWkVoINEpoNCK6mS+3at8/ UimTB7QaSvN6bQ8FksAL1dkPMqSFPDXoccBMJg1Y0TiaDCikjHxtalKyJvHDAH7UtTJf uRQBgC0yl4T5Y7NNP7N4VBSpBM3pOEZsD83DWxfpOF2Sc1n/pSPUF/FbQelQOW2XSDYL Guhg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWSgFnnBuLv9tvGjJBOQfMd2/uBmwOJ+RlCn44SZydnZ6P1y845 MTrZbRqRMWlCTkj3ZUZdUvvzaMJXaybVMANkeKwJdg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzImKNSlVpl4RRZMlwpStTL8VHUTXgyRl/xQxOgo4r59p7Szj+MmnO2DTKQIk+DvQt6WA4Oh+VV4RwrjeUlEfs= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:88c6:: with SMTP id i6mr241903iol.107.1562272326527; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 13:32:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 21:31:53 +0100 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: Joerg Ott , IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, Russ Housley , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , tsv-art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010c388058ce0dfe5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 20:32:10 -0000 --00000000000010c388058ce0dfe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Quick answers inline On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 3:42 PM Joerg Ott wrote: > Hi, > > quick responses inline: > > > > > There are no clear transport issues in this document. The main > > relevant aspect would > > be MTU size, which is in line with standard IPv6. But the document > > discusses (section 4.2) > > that all IPv6 packets should be mapped to the same class of service= . > > So, there is no > > service differentiation expected (diffserv, for example)? > > > > > > We have not treated this detail in the current document. > > Indeed. But the current document states that *all* IPv6 packets MUST be > mapped to the same class of service. You should leave room for refining > this in the future since I would expect different traffic classes to > appear. > We have not mentioned the class of service in the current document. We have talked about address types. > > > However, I do not consider the document to be really ready because > > of structure > > and writing clarity. This is surprising for version -46! There is a > > need for improvement > > to make the document properly understandable by the reader. I am > > actually wondering > > why this document is sent out for last call given the state the tex= t > > is in. > > > > > > The document will be proofred once again before becoming an RFC. > > I am sorry but this is not acceptable. You are asking other people > to read the document and comment on it. As such, we may certainly > expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC. > This document clearly is not. > If you see any remaing typos or grmmatical errors, kindly point us to the exact lines. > > > Detailed comments: > > > > In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I > > worry? There doesn't appear > > to be any IPR disclosure. > > Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response. > It is simple. There is no IPR! > > > p5, 1st line: packet->packets > Corrected in -47 > > > > > > Are you referring to page 5 or paragraph 5? > > Page 5. (Otherwise I would write para 5.) > Ok. > > > The use of RFC 2026 language needs improvement. > > > > > > I didn't get your point. Would you please clarify on how we can tackle > > this issue, if any? > > RFC 2026 defines the proper use of MAY, MUST, SHOULD. The document > does not appear to be consistently using the capitalized words properly > in all cases. Just go through the document and check all pieces of > this normative language. > Thank you for the reminder. However, we have already extinsively discussed ALL of them in the mailing list. You may check -47. > > > sect. 4.4: transition time is not defined > > > The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platforms can only use the forme= r > > (MAC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (native x86) can use > > RFC8064.The majority of IP-OBUs are embedded platforms. I'm not sure > > whether they can use RFC8064. > > Ahh, this is what you mean by transition time. I assumed that this > would refer to the time moving from one point of attachment to another > or so. Can you say a bit more to make this clear? > Yes, I thought you were refering to the length of time during which we transition from the use of link-local addresses formed by deriving from hardwired 48bit MAC identifiers, to the time where the link-local address formed by deriving from more random identifiers (RFC8064). Still, I'm not sure if IP-OBUs can use RFC8064! We need to ask in 6man. > > > > "no generic meaning" -- means what? > > > > > > No generic meaning' - means that the bits in the Interface Identifiers > > are 'opaque'. Earlier, the u/g bits in IID had a significance (it mean= t > > 'unique/global'). A concept updated by RFC7136. > > Great. Then specify opaque -- generic has no meaning this in this > context. > > Ok. I agree. > > > This section is confusing. Please describe a concrete sequence of > > actions. > > > > > > Would you show us how we can improve this section? > > Well, this should be up to the WG. Just read it and try to > understand what it says rather than confirming what you know. > > But, in general, as a reader I would expect to get a clear recipe > with explicit steps. > > There are two kinds of identifiers: A and B. If you need A, follow > these steps: 1., 2., 3., ... If you need B, then ... > Here is some guidance when A or B is preferred. > > Most of this may be in the section but it is hard to extract. > > > sect. 4.5: external references for standards are surely the right > > way. But > > the reader may benefit from some informal self-contained descriptio= n. > > > > sect. 4.5.2: anythings needs to be said about multicast reception? > We have already pointed out that "These issues may be exacerbated in OCB mode. A Future improvement to this specification SHOULD consider solutions for these problems. " > > > > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interface= s > of > > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle > > interfaces)." further. > in close range so that we can consider it's a P2P link. > > > > sect. 5: explain briefly how certificates are supposed to work with > > variable addresses. > > > > App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? > > > > App. G: Ok to show complete packet formats. But then maybe also giv= e > > specific examples? > > And why do you describe this as capturing what is received rather > > than how to construct > > something to sent out? > > > > App. I: reliable multicast used incorrectly > > "TBD TBD TBD" > Corrected in -47 > > > > Nits: "mode.A", "; The", "on another hand", "At application layer" > > "attacker can therefore just sit in the near range of vehicles" > > "perform attacks without needing to physically break any wall." > > "embarking an" > > "outdoors public environments" > > "attacker sniffers" > > "indoor settings" > > "eventual conflicts" > > "internet" > > expand all acronyms, also in the appendices > Agreed. I will correct all these Nits. Thank you for pointing this out. > > > > Why has sect. 5.3 bullets? > Ok. We can remove those bullets > > In short: there is A LOT of work to be done before this is ready. > > J=C3=B6rg > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --00000000000010c388058ce0dfe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
<= br>
Quick answers= inline

On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 3:42 PM Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de> wrote:
Hi,

quick responses inline:

>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are no clear transport issues in this documen= t. The main
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relevant aspect would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be MTU size, which is in line with standard IPv6. B= ut the document
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses (section 4.2)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that all IPv6 packets should be mapped to the same = class of service.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, there is no
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service differentiation expected (diffserv, for exa= mple)?
>
>
> We have not treated this detail in the current document.

Indeed.=C2=A0 But the current document states that *all* IPv6 packets MUST = be
mapped to the same class of service.=C2=A0 You should leave room for refini= ng
this in the future since I would expect different traffic classes to
appear.

We have not mentioned the class of service in the= current document. We have talked about address types.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, I do not consider the document to be reall= y ready because
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of structure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and writing clarity. This is surprising for version= -46! There is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0need for improvement
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to make the document properly understandable by the= reader. I am
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actually wondering
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0why this document is sent out for last call given t= he state the text
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is in.
>
>
> The document will be proofred once again before=C2=A0 becoming an RFC.=

I am sorry but this is not acceptable.=C2=A0 You are asking other people to read the document and comment on it.=C2=A0 As such, we may certainly
expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC.
This document clearly is not.

If you see any remaing typos = or grmmatical errors, kindly point us to the exact lines.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detailed comments:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In several places, the text reminds of patent jargo= n. Should I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worry? There doesn't appear
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be any IPR disclosure.

Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response.

It i= s simple. There is no IPR!

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p5, 1st line: packet->packets

Co= rrected in -47
>
>
> Are you referring to page 5 or paragraph 5?

Page 5.=C2=A0 (Otherwise I would write para 5.)

Ok.
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The use of RFC 2026 language needs improvement.
>
>
> I didn't get your point. Would you please clarify on how we can ta= ckle
> this issue, if any?

RFC 2026 defines the proper use of MAY, MUST, SHOULD.=C2=A0 The document does not appear to be consistently using the capitalized words properly
in all cases.=C2=A0 Just go through the document and check all pieces of this normative language.

Thank you for the reminder. Howeve= r, we have already extinsively discussed ALL of them in the mailing list. Y= ou may check -47.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 4.4: transition time is not defined >
> The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platforms can only use the form= er
> (MAC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (native x86) can use
> RFC8064.The majority of IP-OBUs are embedded platforms.=C2=A0 I'm = not sure
> whether they can use RFC8064.

Ahh, this is what you mean by transition time.=C2=A0 I assumed that this would refer to the time moving from one point of attachment to another
or so.=C2=A0 Can you say a bit more to make this clear?

Yes= , I thought you were refering to=C2=A0 the=C2=A0length of time during which= we transition from the use of link-local addresses formed by deriving from= hardwired 48bit MAC identifiers, to the time where the link-local address = formed by deriving from more random identifiers (RFC8064).
Still, I'm not sure if IP-OBUs can use RFC8064! We need to = ask in 6man.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"no generic meaning" -- means what?
>
>
> No generic meaning' - means that the bits in the Interface Identif= iers
> are 'opaque'.=C2=A0 Earlier, the u/g bits in IID had a signifi= cance (it meant
> 'unique/global'). A concept updated by RFC7136.

Great. Then specify opaque -- generic has no meaning this in this
context.
=C2=A0
Ok. I agree.
=C2=A0

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This section is confusing. Please describe a concre= te sequence of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actions.
>
>
> Would you show us how we can improve this section?

Well, this should be up to the WG.=C2=A0 Just read it and try to
understand what it says rather than confirming what you know.

But, in general, as a reader I would expect to get a clear recipe
with explicit steps.

There are two kinds of identifiers: A and B.=C2=A0 If you need A, follow these steps: 1., 2., 3., ...=C2=A0 If you need B, then ...
Here is some guidance when A or B is preferred.

Most of this may be in the section but it is hard to extract.

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 4.5: external references for standards are su= rely the right
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0way. But
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the reader may benefit from some informal self-cont= ained description.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 4.5.2: anythings needs to be said about multi= cast reception?
We have already pointe=
d out that "These issues may be
   exacerbated in OCB mode. A  Future improvement to this specification=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SHOULD co= nsider solutions for these problems.=C2=A0"
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over= 802.11-OCB interfaces of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-v= ehicle
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces)." further.
in clos= e range so that we can consider it's a P2P link.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 5: explain briefly how certificates are suppo= sed to work with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0variable addresses.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulatio= n"?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0App. G: Ok to show complete packet formats. But the= n maybe also give
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific examples?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And why do you describe this as capturing what is r= eceived rather
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than how to construct
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something to sent out?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0App. I: reliable multicast used incorrectly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"TBD TBD TBD"
Corrected in -47=C2=A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nits: "mode.A", "; The", "= on another hand", "At application layer"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"attacker can therefore just sit in the near r= ange of vehicles"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"perform attacks without needing to physically= break any wall."
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"embarking an"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"outdoors public environments"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"attacker sniffers"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"indoor settings"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"eventual conflicts"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"internet"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expand all acronyms, also in the appendices

Agreed. I will correct all these Nits. Thank you for pointing this= out.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Why has sect. 5.3 bullets?
Ok. We c= an remove those bullets

In short: there is A LOT of work to be done before this is ready.

J=C3=B6rg




--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--00000000000010c388058ce0dfe5-- From nobody Thu Jul 4 13:40:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784B1120232; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U3KwwjvroLaU; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out1.in.tum.de [131.159.0.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F36E6120165; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id 0DD911C0354; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 22:40:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3BF5C1C034C; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 22:40:15 +0200 (CEST) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_iqfly@fff.in.tum.de) To: Nabil Benamar Cc: IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, Russ Housley , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org, Joerg Ott , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , tsv-art@ietf.org References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 22:40:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 20:40:24 -0000 Just one quick note: I am writing the TSV-ART review. This means that I am not necessarily on the IPWAVE mailing list, so I am not following what you are discussing there. It's good to see a new version -47 having done already some fixed (I got asked to review -46 when the WG sent this off for last call). If you send out an incomplete document (such as -46) for review, you are wasting people's time because all those reviewers will have to go through yet another version. This is, simply put, not helpful. So, please, before the next version goes out for a last call, -5x or something, please make sure that this is in a shape that you could see published as is. Jörg On 04.07.19 22:31, Nabil Benamar wrote: > Hi, > > Quick answers inline > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 3:42 PM Joerg Ott > wrote: > > Hi, > > quick responses inline: > > > > >     There are no clear transport issues in this document. The main > >     relevant aspect would > >     be MTU size, which is in line with standard IPv6. But the > document > >     discusses (section 4.2) > >     that all IPv6 packets should be mapped to the same class of > service. > >     So, there is no > >     service differentiation expected (diffserv, for example)? > > > > > > We have not treated this detail in the current document. > > Indeed.  But the current document states that *all* IPv6 packets MUST be > mapped to the same class of service.  You should leave room for refining > this in the future since I would expect different traffic classes to > appear. > > > We have not mentioned the class of service in the current document. We > have talked about address types. > > > >     However, I do not consider the document to be really ready > because > >     of structure > >     and writing clarity. This is surprising for version -46! > There is a > >     need for improvement > >     to make the document properly understandable by the reader. I am > >     actually wondering > >     why this document is sent out for last call given the state > the text > >     is in. > > > > > > The document will be proofred once again before  becoming an RFC. > > I am sorry but this is not acceptable.  You are asking other people > to read the document and comment on it.  As such, we may certainly > expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC. > This document clearly is not. > > > If you see any remaing typos or grmmatical errors, kindly point us to > the exact lines. > > > >     Detailed comments: > > > >     In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should I > >     worry? There doesn't appear > >     to be any IPR disclosure. > > Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response. > > > It is simple. There is no IPR! > > > >     p5, 1st line: packet->packets > > > Corrected in -47 > > > > > > > Are you referring to page 5 or paragraph 5? > > Page 5.  (Otherwise I would write para 5.) > > > Ok. > > > >     The use of RFC 2026 language needs improvement. > > > > > > I didn't get your point. Would you please clarify on how we can > tackle > > this issue, if any? > > RFC 2026 defines the proper use of MAY, MUST, SHOULD.  The document > does not appear to be consistently using the capitalized words properly > in all cases.  Just go through the document and check all pieces of > this normative language. > > > Thank you for the reminder. However, we have already extinsively > discussed ALL of them in the mailing list. You may check -47. > > > >     sect. 4.4: transition time is not defined > > > The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platforms can only use the > former > > (MAC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (native x86) can use > > RFC8064.The majority of IP-OBUs are embedded platforms.  I'm not > sure > > whether they can use RFC8064. > > Ahh, this is what you mean by transition time.  I assumed that this > would refer to the time moving from one point of attachment to another > or so.  Can you say a bit more to make this clear? > > > Yes, I thought you were refering to  the length of time during which we > transition from the use of link-local addresses formed by deriving from > hardwired 48bit MAC identifiers, to the time where the link-local > address formed by deriving from more random identifiers (RFC8064). > Still, I'm not sure if IP-OBUs can use RFC8064! We need to ask in 6man. > > > > >     "no generic meaning" -- means what? > > > > > > No generic meaning' - means that the bits in the Interface > Identifiers > > are 'opaque'.  Earlier, the u/g bits in IID had a significance > (it meant > > 'unique/global'). A concept updated by RFC7136. > > Great. Then specify opaque -- generic has no meaning this in this > context. > > Ok. I agree. > > > >     This section is confusing. Please describe a concrete sequence of > >     actions. > > > > > > Would you show us how we can improve this section? > > Well, this should be up to the WG.  Just read it and try to > understand what it says rather than confirming what you know. > > But, in general, as a reader I would expect to get a clear recipe > with explicit steps. > > There are two kinds of identifiers: A and B.  If you need A, follow > these steps: 1., 2., 3., ...  If you need B, then ... > Here is some guidance when A or B is preferred. > > Most of this may be in the section but it is hard to extract. > > >     sect. 4.5: external references for standards are surely the right > >     way. But > >     the reader may benefit from some informal self-contained > description. > > > >     sect. 4.5.2: anythings needs to be said about multicast > reception? > > We have already pointed out that "These issues may be exacerbated in OCB > mode.A Future improvement to this specification > >    SHOULD consider solutions for these problems. " > > > > >     sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB > interfaces of > >     vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle > >     interfaces)." further. > > > in close range so that we can consider it's a P2P link. > > > > >     sect. 5: explain briefly how certificates are supposed to > work with > >     variable addresses. > > > >     App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? > > > >     App. G: Ok to show complete packet formats. But then maybe > also give > >     specific examples? > >     And why do you describe this as capturing what is received rather > >     than how to construct > >     something to sent out? > > > >     App. I: reliable multicast used incorrectly > >     "TBD TBD TBD" > > Corrected in -47 > > > > >     Nits: "mode.A", "; The", "on another hand", "At application > layer" > >     "attacker can therefore just sit in the near range of vehicles" > >     "perform attacks without needing to physically break any wall." > >     "embarking an" > >     "outdoors public environments" > >     "attacker sniffers" > >     "indoor settings" > >     "eventual conflicts" > >     "internet" > >     expand all acronyms, also in the appendices > > > Agreed. I will correct all these Nits. Thank you for pointing this out. > > > > >     Why has sect. 5.3 bullets? > > > Ok. We can remove those bullets > > > In short: there is A LOT of work to be done before this is ready. > > Jörg > > > > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > > > _______________________________________________ > Tsv-art mailing list > Tsv-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > From nobody Thu Jul 4 13:51:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D572120241 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IliMmgxyUcY8 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BB6412023D for ; Thu, 4 Jul 2019 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id j6so15011275ioa.5 for ; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1vq3KcbRWJ3MfNMnqxg5DulfTCxbJ/2yR+0Wxr2QMQM=; b=MDtKf8fUU+4onR+PbmsoWBkz7Am6Vo2/At8jKVQ9Bowl1XDNamMmNLKKV/i8ItwWCi Lx3F8sXxSUKbiMSCqmUHhwSfFyrRWILA3Lmk6WJ5ZErxWkrNo+y7LP0pc/u+p34JhmgL iISQRQ/C+Lgfah96fRrdPIhkvxJ4Un6xvwlLaFhF5x+v7ue89IKDYKkmco7sy81b+yLd BK2IbTwBGvmhvvvir8x2+UJTsQDws2mX36e18dfWzk792/+Ig4FJ5aKJiRtCFui+JAML ELcz4LOWI4LQeZ58lBkFGViSth7DCYxP9ncBCWI/ghz4ppd78bCPVwwOqweSh0GRq3nX FZZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1vq3KcbRWJ3MfNMnqxg5DulfTCxbJ/2yR+0Wxr2QMQM=; b=j45xCl0RF2PISljnE0MTVGc72ShWaDCkahO3xNG0UlN2r+xgI2N6nI7LGh8rTZGTqO VUSkSthtQ581WU4ZOs+L/BCwRdjZX2EqiXDIZHLdS4LuPcKEIwwOirYnOdnyFi2N6Pgu baCGV5tbw6+ZmhqX3EDF+TpUAII/VYzy7Y+UCHR/kqX7q+XFuX17H5qiWOxkv5KZTbeY rQHmrB+IU+kbDT2abWgwxVxqvhJVP1SPROioY0Q+cGqlTlMJOL7DikgPBvtrSe4jhCes /1eylETd9/xjzbuhwDPfVeZ5Lx74C9tT7K54Bc1GvzO5W5oe3ojpQB5OZmHYtwkivLWL Bx4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWql02KB42ydc6Twa8NE/0mFR3y2Rd0GwmRMSPqjQHotnzJq8os Feaz3QcCa2FEvNG5RrREOdSdDuMAbyBCtl+/5e9AQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx66Qgz7wyt6szqFCnKGFlybRy57ZMnmDJL85SFHKCHFpkmYW1GRDA8/VtntpeekfmDkfaxUG3nPsokpgWL+No= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:cf:: with SMTP id w15mr146185jao.136.1562273467452; Thu, 04 Jul 2019 13:51:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 21:50:56 +0100 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, Russ Housley , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org, Joerg Ott , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO , tsv-art@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000011e4b3058ce123b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2019 20:51:12 -0000 --00000000000011e4b3058ce123b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm aware of this point. The thing is that I published -47 as a response to Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. At the same time, we received your feedback on -46!! On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 9:40 PM Joerg Ott wrote: > Just one quick note: I am writing the TSV-ART review. This means that I > am not necessarily on the IPWAVE mailing list, so I am not following > what you are discussing there. It's good to see a new version -47 > having done already some fixed (I got asked to review -46 when the WG > sent this off for last call). > > If you send out an incomplete document (such as -46) for review, you > are wasting people's time because all those reviewers will have to go > through yet another version. This is, simply put, not helpful. > I agree. However, I did send version -47 after the LAST CALL deadline which was 26 June. I did not know that there will be other incoming reviews!! > > So, please, before the next version goes out for a last call, -5x or > something, please make sure that this is in a shape that you could > see published as is. > Thank you for the advice, but why necessairly -5x? > > J=C3=B6rg > > On 04.07.19 22:31, Nabil Benamar wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Quick answers inline > > > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 3:42 PM Joerg Ott > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > quick responses inline: > > > > > > > > There are no clear transport issues in this document. The ma= in > > > relevant aspect would > > > be MTU size, which is in line with standard IPv6. But the > > document > > > discusses (section 4.2) > > > that all IPv6 packets should be mapped to the same class of > > service. > > > So, there is no > > > service differentiation expected (diffserv, for example)? > > > > > > > > > We have not treated this detail in the current document. > > > > Indeed. But the current document states that *all* IPv6 packets > MUST be > > mapped to the same class of service. You should leave room for > refining > > this in the future since I would expect different traffic classes t= o > > appear. > > > > > > We have not mentioned the class of service in the current document. We > > have talked about address types. > > > > > > > However, I do not consider the document to be really ready > > because > > > of structure > > > and writing clarity. This is surprising for version -46! > > There is a > > > need for improvement > > > to make the document properly understandable by the reader. = I > am > > > actually wondering > > > why this document is sent out for last call given the state > > the text > > > is in. > > > > > > > > > The document will be proofred once again before becoming an RFC= . > > > > I am sorry but this is not acceptable. You are asking other people > > to read the document and comment on it. As such, we may certainly > > expect that what we get to review in last call is ready for RFC. > > This document clearly is not. > > > > > > If you see any remaing typos or grmmatical errors, kindly point us to > > the exact lines. > > > > > > > Detailed comments: > > > > > > In several places, the text reminds of patent jargon. Should= I > > > worry? There doesn't appear > > > to be any IPR disclosure. > > > > Here, I'd really like to get an explicit response. > > > > > > It is simple. There is no IPR! > > > > > > > p5, 1st line: packet->packets > > > > > > Corrected in -47 > > > > > > > > > > > Are you referring to page 5 or paragraph 5? > > > > Page 5. (Otherwise I would write para 5.) > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > > The use of RFC 2026 language needs improvement. > > > > > > > > > I didn't get your point. Would you please clarify on how we can > > tackle > > > this issue, if any? > > > > RFC 2026 defines the proper use of MAY, MUST, SHOULD. The document > > does not appear to be consistently using the capitalized words > properly > > in all cases. Just go through the document and check all pieces of > > this normative language. > > > > > > Thank you for the reminder. However, we have already extinsively > > discussed ALL of them in the mailing list. You may check -47. > > > > > > > sect. 4.4: transition time is not defined > > > > The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platforms can only use th= e > > former > > > (MAC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (native x86) can use > > > RFC8064.The majority of IP-OBUs are embedded platforms. I'm not > > sure > > > whether they can use RFC8064. > > > > Ahh, this is what you mean by transition time. I assumed that this > > would refer to the time moving from one point of attachment to > another > > or so. Can you say a bit more to make this clear? > > > > > > Yes, I thought you were refering to the length of time during which we > > transition from the use of link-local addresses formed by deriving from > > hardwired 48bit MAC identifiers, to the time where the link-local > > address formed by deriving from more random identifiers (RFC8064). > > Still, I'm not sure if IP-OBUs can use RFC8064! We need to ask in 6man. > > > > > > > > "no generic meaning" -- means what? > > > > > > > > > No generic meaning' - means that the bits in the Interface > > Identifiers > > > are 'opaque'. Earlier, the u/g bits in IID had a significance > > (it meant > > > 'unique/global'). A concept updated by RFC7136. > > > > Great. Then specify opaque -- generic has no meaning this in this > > context. > > > > Ok. I agree. > > > > > > > This section is confusing. Please describe a concrete > sequence of > > > actions. > > > > > > > > > Would you show us how we can improve this section? > > > > Well, this should be up to the WG. Just read it and try to > > understand what it says rather than confirming what you know. > > > > But, in general, as a reader I would expect to get a clear recipe > > with explicit steps. > > > > There are two kinds of identifiers: A and B. If you need A, follow > > these steps: 1., 2., 3., ... If you need B, then ... > > Here is some guidance when A or B is preferred. > > > > Most of this may be in the section but it is hard to extract. > > > > > sect. 4.5: external references for standards are surely the > right > > > way. But > > > the reader may benefit from some informal self-contained > > description. > > > > > > sect. 4.5.2: anythings needs to be said about multicast > > reception? > > > > We have already pointed out that "These issues may be exacerbated in OC= B > > mode.A Future improvement to this specification > > > > SHOULD consider solutions for these problems. " > > > > > > > > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB > > interfaces of > > > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle > > > interfaces)." further. > > > > > > in close range so that we can consider it's a P2P link. > > > > > > > > sect. 5: explain briefly how certificates are supposed to > > work with > > > variable addresses. > > > > > > App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? > > > > > > App. G: Ok to show complete packet formats. But then maybe > > also give > > > specific examples? > > > And why do you describe this as capturing what is received > rather > > > than how to construct > > > something to sent out? > > > > > > App. I: reliable multicast used incorrectly > > > "TBD TBD TBD" > > > > Corrected in -47 > > > > > > > > Nits: "mode.A", "; The", "on another hand", "At application > > layer" > > > "attacker can therefore just sit in the near range of > vehicles" > > > "perform attacks without needing to physically break any > wall." > > > "embarking an" > > > "outdoors public environments" > > > "attacker sniffers" > > > "indoor settings" > > > "eventual conflicts" > > > "internet" > > > expand all acronyms, also in the appendices > > > > > > Agreed. I will correct all these Nits. Thank you for pointing this out. > > > > > > > > Why has sect. 5.3 bullets? > > > > > > Ok. We can remove those bullets > > > > > > In short: there is A LOT of work to be done before this is ready. > > > > J=C3=B6rg > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Tsv-art mailing list > > Tsv-art@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --00000000000011e4b3058ce123b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= font color=3D"#0b5394">I'm aware of this point. The thing is that I pub= lished -47 as a response to=C2=A0Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. At the sa= me time, we received your feedback on -46!!


On Thu, Jul 4= , 2019 at 9:40 PM Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de> wrote:
Just one quick note: I am writing the TSV-ART review.= =C2=A0 This means that I
am not necessarily on the IPWAVE mailing list, so I am not following
what you are discussing there.=C2=A0 It's good to see a new version -47=
having done already some fixed (I got asked to review -46 when the WG
sent this off for last call).

If you send out an incomplete document (such as -46) for review, you
are wasting people's time because all those reviewers will have to go through yet another version. This is, simply put, not helpful.
=
I agr= ee. However, I did send version -47 after the LAST CALL deadline which was = 26 June. I did not know that there will be other incoming reviews!!

So, please, before the next version goes out for a last call, -5x or
something, please make sure that this is in a shape that you could
see published as is.

Thank you for the advice, but why nece= ssairly -5x?

J=C3=B6rg

On 04.07.19 22:31, Nabil Benamar wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Quick answers inline
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 3:42 PM Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de
> <mailto:ott@in.t= um.de>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0quick responses inline:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are no clear transpo= rt issues in this document. The main
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relevant aspect would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be MTU size, which is in l= ine with standard IPv6. But the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses (section 4.2) >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that all IPv6 packets shou= ld be mapped to the same class of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So, there is no
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service differentiation ex= pected (diffserv, for example)?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We have not treated this detail in the curren= t document.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Indeed.=C2=A0 But the current document states that = *all* IPv6 packets MUST be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mapped to the same class of service.=C2=A0 You shou= ld leave room for refining
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this in the future since I would expect different t= raffic classes to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0appear.
>
>
> We have not mentioned the class of service in the current document. We=
> have talked about address types.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, I do not consider= the document to be really ready
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0because
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of structure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and writing clarity. This = is surprising for version -46!
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0need for improvement
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to make the document prope= rly understandable by the reader. I am
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actually wondering
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0why this document is sent = out for last call given the state
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the text
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is in.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The document will be proofred once again befo= re=C2=A0 becoming an RFC.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am sorry but this is not acceptable.=C2=A0 You ar= e asking other people
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to read the document and comment on it.=C2=A0 As su= ch, we may certainly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expect that what we get to review in last call is r= eady for RFC.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document clearly is not.
>
>
> If you see any remaing typos or grmmatical errors, kindly point us to =
> the exact lines.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detailed comments:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In several places, the tex= t reminds of patent jargon. Should I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0worry? There doesn't a= ppear
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be any IPR disclosure.<= br> >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here, I'd really like to get an explicit respon= se.
>
>
> It is simple. There is no IPR!
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0p5, 1st line: packet->p= ackets
>
>
> Corrected in -47
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Are you referring to page 5 or paragraph 5? >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Page 5.=C2=A0 (Otherwise I would write para 5.)
>
>
> Ok.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The use of RFC 2026 langua= ge needs improvement.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I didn't get your point. Would you please= clarify on how we can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tackle
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > this issue, if any?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 2026 defines the proper use of MAY, MUST, SHOUL= D.=C2=A0 The document
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not appear to be consistently using the capita= lized words properly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in all cases.=C2=A0 Just go through the document an= d check all pieces of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this normative language.
>
>
> Thank you for the reminder. However, we have already extinsively
> discussed ALL of them in the mailing list. You may check -47.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 4.4: transition time= is not defined >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The IP-OBUs that are based on embedded platfo= rms can only use the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0former
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (MAC-based) whereas more powerful platforms (= native x86) can use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > RFC8064.The majority of IP-OBUs are embedded = platforms.=C2=A0 I'm not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > whether they can use RFC8064.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ahh, this is what you mean by transition time.=C2= =A0 I assumed that this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would refer to the time moving from one point of at= tachment to another
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or so.=C2=A0 Can you say a bit more to make this cl= ear?
>
>
> Yes, I thought you were refering to=C2=A0 the=C2=A0length of time duri= ng which we
> transition from the use of link-local addresses formed by deriving fro= m
> hardwired 48bit MAC identifiers, to the time where the link-local
> address formed by deriving from more random identifiers (RFC8064).
> Still, I'm not sure if IP-OBUs can use RFC8064! We need to ask in = 6man.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"no generic meaning&q= uot; -- means what?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > No generic meaning' - means that the bits= in the Interface
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Identifiers
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > are 'opaque'.=C2=A0 Earlier, the u/g = bits in IID had a significance
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(it meant
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 'unique/global'). A concept updated b= y RFC7136.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Great. Then specify opaque -- generic has no meanin= g this in this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0context.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ok. I agree.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This section is confusing.= Please describe a concrete sequence of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0actions.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Would you show us how we can improve this sec= tion?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Well, this should be up to the WG.=C2=A0 Just read = it and try to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0understand what it says rather than confirming what= you know.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But, in general, as a reader I would expect to get = a clear recipe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with explicit steps.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are two kinds of identifiers: A and B.=C2=A0 = If you need A, follow
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these steps: 1., 2., 3., ...=C2=A0 If you need B, t= hen ...
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Here is some guidance when A or B is preferred.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Most of this may be in the section but it is hard t= o extract.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 4.5: external refere= nces for standards are surely the right
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0way. But
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the reader may benefit fro= m some informal self-contained
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0description.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 4.5.2: anythings nee= ds to be said about multicast
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reception?
>
> We have already pointed out that "These issues may be exacerbated= in OCB
> mode.A Future improvement to this specification
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SHOULD consider solutions for these problems. "= ;
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect 4.6: Clarify "A = subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vehicles that are in close= range (not by their in-vehicle
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces)." further= .
>
>
> in close range so that we can consider it's a P2P link.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect. 5: explain briefly h= ow certificates are supposed to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work with
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0variable addresses.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0App. E: why would high mob= ility affect encapsulation"?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0App. G: Ok to show complet= e packet formats. But then maybe
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also give
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific examples?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And why do you describe th= is as capturing what is received rather
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than how to construct
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something to sent out?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0App. I: reliable multicast= used incorrectly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"TBD TBD TBD" >
> Corrected in -47
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nits: "mode.A", = "; The", "on another hand", "At application
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"attacker can therefo= re just sit in the near range of vehicles"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"perform attacks with= out needing to physically break any wall."
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"embarking an" >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"outdoors public envi= ronments"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"attacker sniffers&qu= ot;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"indoor settings"= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"eventual conflicts&q= uot;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"internet"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expand all acronyms, also = in the appendices
>
>
> Agreed. I will correct all these Nits. Thank you for pointing this out= .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Why has sect. 5.3 bullets?=
>
>
> Ok. We can remove those bullets
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In short: there is A LOT of work to be done before = this is ready.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0J=C3=B6rg
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
> Associate Professor
> Department of Computer Sciences
> School of Technology
> Moulay Ismail University
> Meknes. Morocco
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art<= br> >


--

Best Regards=

Nabil Benamar<= /div>
Associate Prof= essor
D= epartment of Computer Sciences
= School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--00000000000011e4b3058ce123b2-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 01:41:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6632812016E for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 01:41:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JcnbLl0xL_rQ for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 01:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7769D120128 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 01:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id m24so8101766ioo.2 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 01:41:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CUAycEqYkEl/t1wavwgCGuPOE1of4YqeR99IE0fMWKk=; b=Flnq+lZA1IUtAqGUOu8NzmowSqxg0kG0ST5z2JLKfT1wgAFRoSQLbcdMz8GGHiCUsP mP2HYtKS9s5fHT0KeFYnez09x4iCnLb2llS7zbmCe/6vwdoxnDZy345zG6Tw1nTiO/SV PYoIdRhl51NcL2jrtmAifX2CEhHaFnqG4qcQQ1kCn6w8h6zUvBVCEIuBVJvchHUcfSqW tnEHOVUleF1VmxZL7ty4Ww/58N9klusPJ9cgFkvTmfo3fN0HNU0CxQmCzRFyAg0xzPE8 aq3iFaBRiBylYpMywOOQp/++JQUbKbjFvMJ7vCStQLUKsHR88yajnTaSk3fefqeuapHh NqpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CUAycEqYkEl/t1wavwgCGuPOE1of4YqeR99IE0fMWKk=; b=a0bluvVZxhQiQQzEM1waLc/K4j/IWZQLZmum4RpDGbtBoGz+dHbn8IpeDbp+NecfNW DGbu5hjFy12QkDRq3Olqt98X9S6Cs894x0hTIYVTKSHA0s/ySf+QSu0euQsVOoctjZ3g ZmPYIdiPG6QlkeD6fHBnVI4vCf55I8sMhJQd4PyZHoCm65ASJte2vm1K4x03L2R2H6kF BVZxj/5OsGIgR5oHFvUJtiFP8FqbMzKmPm9S+0zbSJYiEZVay/iHN7PAgWtTSB4lLsL0 MI3ChyXDCSgj17rheUprORJDKklKJhmksPTuMLLBVpxBs7vxRujL07FzIfVeKIsAJ1gS dfkg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXzieXq0UBzOxHjvGxjZ2MlQ6EINduxF4XyvYf4SUWc5LjOxfR6 gAT0Du54zZeMPhRsiJDi6Q3BWy0UptFSR63/kaqNSw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzPafGi11BMPhrhHV+C+woNmeT2XV8BnvZQwE8lVPXcndzkoT1dgDloiaUxbejnm7oL/YSWt12vE1iiQWcX0dQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:88c6:: with SMTP id i6mr3000481iol.107.1562316081611; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 01:41:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 09:41:10 +0100 Message-ID: To: Roni Even Cc: gen-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000125d60058ceb0f1e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 08:41:24 -0000 --000000000000125d60058ceb0f1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Roni, Thank you for your review. Indeed, you raised a crucial privacy issue that we need to tackle in this draft. If we look at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8065 which recommends the generic https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8064, we can say that we comply by inheritance from Ethernet since our current draft is targeted at using the RFC 2464 (plus IPv6 suite over Ethernet) with minimal changes, as we mention in the abstract (...for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link *with minimal change to * * existing stacks*). However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of a same Link Local Address over time can leak the presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, if the same interface identifier is used with different prefixes as a device/vehicle moves between different networks. Hence, a vehicle should get hints about a change of environment (e.g. , engine running, GPS, whatever) and renew the IID in LLAs. I can make these proposed changes in a separate sub-section to emphasize the concern and fix the privacy issue. Thank you! On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 7:05 AM Roni Even via Datatracker wrote: > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review result: Ready with Issues > > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. > > For more information, please see the FAQ at > > . > > Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review Date: 2019-07-03 > IETF LC End Date: None > IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 > > Summary: > The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an issue > > Major issues: > > Minor issues: > > this is about my previous comment. > The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose egress > interface > is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent > correlation of > data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; there > is a > risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where vehicles > typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indoors > settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools such > as > dynamically changing MAC addresses" > so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text > saying > that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative . > > A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy is to > change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up" > > I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the MAC > address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." > > So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to address > privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic > changing > of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example for > when to > change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC > address > is to be determined. > > To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks are > more > important for outdoor public environment and it is left for > implementations to > decide if and how to address it. > > Nits/editorial comments: > > > -- Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000125d60058ceb0f1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear= =C2=A0Roni,

<= /div>
Thank you for you= r review. Indeed, you raised a crucial privacy issue that we need to tackle= in this draft.
<= br>

If we look at=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/rfc8065=C2=A0which recommends the generic=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rf= c8064, we can say that we=C2=A0 comply by inheritance from Ethernet sin= ce our current draft is targeted at using the RFC 2464 (plus IPv6 suite ove= r Ethernet) with minimal changes, as we mention in the abstract (...for using IPv6 to communicate= among nodes in range of

   one another over a single I=
EEE 802.11-OCB link with minimal change to=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0existing stacks).=C2=A0


However, there are some specificities re= lated to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of a same Link Local Addr= ess over time can leak the presence of the same vehicle in multiple places.= =C2=A0Location trackin= g, if the same interface identifier is used with=C2=A0different prefixes as a device/vehic= le moves between different networks.


Hence, a vehicle should get hints about a change of environment = (e.g. , engine running, GPS, whatever) and renew the IID in LLAs.=

=C2=A0<= u>

I can make t= hese proposed changes in a separate sub-section to emphasize the concern an= d fix the privacy issue.


Thank yo= u!


On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 7:05 AM Roni Even via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
=
Reviewer: Roni Even
Review result: Ready with Issues

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your
document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq&g= t;.

Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47
Reviewer: Roni Even
Review Date: 2019-07-03
IETF LC End Date: None
IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11

Summary:
The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an issue=

Major issues:

Minor issues:

this is about my previous comment.
The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking=C2=A0 an IP-OBU whose egr= ess interface
is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to=C2=A0 eavesdropping and subsequent corre= lation of
data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; there i= s a
risk of being tracked.=C2=A0 In outdoors public environments, where vehicle= s
typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indoors settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection too= ls such=C2=A0 as
dynamically changing MAC addresses"
=C2=A0so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text = saying
=C2=A0that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not norma= tive .

A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy i= s to
change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up&q= uot;

I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the= MAC
address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined."
So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to address<= br> privacy concern are needed but without any normative text.=C2=A0 Dynamic ch= anging
of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned.=C2=A0 Example fo= r when to
change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC addr= ess
is to be determined.

To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks are mor= e
important for outdoor public environment and it is left for implementations= to
decide if and how to address it.

Nits/editorial comments:




--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000125d60058ceb0f1e-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 04:15:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1884612001E; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:15:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m5xpzS1aWr4r; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 503F312001B; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x65BFRJ3011446; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:15:27 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CDF0205CBA; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:15:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C39205CA7; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:15:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x65BFRtF012337; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:15:27 +0200 To: Joerg Ott , tsv-art@ietf.org Cc: ietf@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <37386336-7f59-7e6f-03d4-2f7994304f74@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:15:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 11:15:35 -0000 Le 27/06/2019 à 18:38, Joerg Ott via Datatracker a écrit : [...] > App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? The paragraph in question is this: > > Appendix E. Design Considerations > > The networks defined by 802.11-OCB are in many ways similar to other > networks of the 802.11 family. In theory, the encapsulation of IPv6 > over 802.11-OCB could be very similar to the operation of IPv6 over > other networks of the 802.11 family. However, the high mobility, > strong link asymmetry and very short connection makes the 802.11-OCB > link significantly different from other 802.11 networks. Also, the > automotive applications have specific requirements for reliability, > security and privacy, which further add to the particularity of the > 802.11-OCB link. There a huge list of Design Considerations in the main matter. More and more reviews led to skinning it to just one paragraph, depicted above. Let me try to answer to the question of why would high mobility affect encapsulation. First, the word encapsulation seems to have captured your attention. I hope it is for a good reason, but frankly speaking I do not know the reason why it attracted it. To clarify, let me say that the word 'encapsulation' was used to signify 'carrying' IPv6 datagrams on 802.11-OCB. One expects IPv6 to be carried over OCB as over WiFi. ('encapsulation' was not used to mean IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation and friends). The high mobility in OCB is contrasted to low (or no) mobility in WiFi - it means that in WiFi users are near a fixed Access Point and dont move much. But in OCB there are no access points and cars move a lot. High mobility in OCB may need to avoid potential interference in order to ensure safety. TO achieve that, it may be possible that QoS concents become more mandatory on OCB links (than on WiFi; on WiFi the QoS concepts are almost absent in implementations). Thus, there may be a need of some mapping between IPv6 QoS-specific fields and 802.11-OCB QoS-specific fields. There may be need of other QoS-specific fields. So, whereas an IPv6-over-WiFi spec (which does not exist, btw) has no mapping of QoS fields of how IPv6 is 'carried' (encapsulated) on WiFi, an IPv6-over-OCB would need some mapping of this sort, so that IPv6 is better 'carried' over OCB. Because of mobility. QoS is just an example of why encapsulating (carrying) IPv6 on OCB may need more than just what is needed by carring IPv6 on WiFi. There are other examples: IPv6 addressing in OCB links requires human intervention often - it's not as plug and play as IPv6 over WiFi. That needs easy to remember and subnet-specific link local addresses, like fe80:1::1/32. These addresses dont exist on IPv6 altogher, let alone IPv6-over-WiFi. There are more examples. Remark my own difficulty of speculating on something which does not exist: IPv6 over WiFi specification. Alex From nobody Fri Jul 5 04:17:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DAE1202AE; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:17:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0DjenDD9eaPL; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 297EA1201C9; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x65BGh6e034051; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:16:43 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id BE2E0205C66; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F24205C53; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:16:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x65BGhgn012939; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:16:43 +0200 To: Joerg Ott , tsv-art@ietf.org Cc: ietf@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> <37386336-7f59-7e6f-03d4-2f7994304f74@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <516762a7-8c98-aa70-78c8-63c190810fb5@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:16:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37386336-7f59-7e6f-03d4-2f7994304f74@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DAEF10AD7483D84BEEF53AC0" Content-Language: fr Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 11:17:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DAEF10AD7483D84BEEF53AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit note: my text is an explanation of how I see things.  I am not an author of the OCB document.  The OCB document has an Editor, and it belongs to the WG IPWAVE. Alex Le 05/07/2019 à 13:15, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > > Le 27/06/2019 à 18:38, Joerg Ott via Datatracker a écrit : > [...] >> App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? > > The paragraph in question is this: >> >> Appendix E.  Design Considerations >> >> The networks defined by 802.11-OCB are in many ways similar to other >> networks of the 802.11 family.  In theory, the encapsulation of IPv6 >> over 802.11-OCB could be very similar to the operation of IPv6 over >> other networks of the 802.11 family. However, the high mobility, >> strong link asymmetry and very short connection makes the 802.11-OCB >> link significantly different from other 802.11 networks.  Also, the >> automotive applications have specific requirements for reliability, >> security and privacy, which further add to the particularity of the >> 802.11-OCB link. > > There a huge list of Design Considerations in the main matter. More and > more reviews led to skinning it to just one paragraph, depicted above. > > Let me try to answer to the question of why would high mobility affect > encapsulation. > > First, the word encapsulation seems to have captured your attention.  > I hope it is for a good reason, but frankly speaking I do not know the > reason why it attracted it.  To clarify, let me say that the word > 'encapsulation' was used to signify 'carrying' IPv6 datagrams on > 802.11-OCB.  One expects IPv6 to be carried over OCB as over WiFi. > ('encapsulation' was not used to mean IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation and > friends). > > The high mobility in OCB is contrasted to low (or no) mobility in WiFi > - it means that in WiFi users are near a fixed Access Point and dont > move much.  But in OCB there are no access points and cars move a lot. > > High mobility in OCB may need to avoid potential interference in order > to ensure safety.  TO achieve that, it may be possible that QoS concents > become more mandatory on OCB links (than on WiFi; on WiFi the QoS > concepts are almost absent in implementations).  Thus, there may be a > need of some mapping between IPv6 QoS-specific fields and 802.11-OCB > QoS-specific fields.  There may be need of other QoS-specific fields. > > So, whereas an IPv6-over-WiFi spec (which does not exist, btw) has no > mapping of QoS fields of how  IPv6 is 'carried' (encapsulated) on > WiFi, an IPv6-over-OCB would need some mapping of this sort, so that > IPv6 is better 'carried' over OCB.  Because of mobility. > > QoS is just an example of why encapsulating (carrying) IPv6 on OCB may > need more than just what is needed by carring IPv6 on WiFi. > > There are other examples: IPv6 addressing in OCB links requires human > intervention often - it's not as plug and play as IPv6 over WiFi.  > That needs easy to remember and subnet-specific link local addresses, > like fe80:1::1/32.  These addresses dont exist on IPv6 altogher, let > alone IPv6-over-WiFi. > > There are more examples. > > Remark my own difficulty  of speculating on something which does not > exist: IPv6 over WiFi specification. > > Alex --------------DAEF10AD7483D84BEEF53AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

note: my text is an explanation of how I see things.  I am not an author of the OCB document.  The OCB document has an Editor, and it belongs to the WG IPWAVE.

Alex

Le 05/07/2019 à 13:15, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit :


Le 27/06/2019 à 18:38, Joerg Ott via Datatracker a écrit :
[...]
App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"?

The paragraph in question is this:

Appendix E.  Design Considerations

The networks defined by 802.11-OCB are in many ways similar to other networks of the 802.11 family.  In theory, the encapsulation of IPv6 over 802.11-OCB could be very similar to the operation of IPv6 over other networks of the 802.11 family.  However, the high mobility, strong link asymmetry and very short connection makes the 802.11-OCB link significantly different from other 802.11 networks.  Also, the automotive applications have specific requirements for reliability, security and privacy, which further add to the particularity of the 802.11-OCB link.

There a huge list of Design Considerations in the main matter.  More and
more reviews led to skinning it to just one paragraph, depicted above.

Let me try to answer to the question of why would high mobility affect encapsulation.

First, the word encapsulation seems to have captured your attention.  I hope it is for a good reason, but frankly speaking I do not know the reason why it attracted it.  To clarify, let me say that the word 'encapsulation' was used to signify 'carrying' IPv6 datagrams on 802.11-OCB.  One expects IPv6 to be carried over OCB as over WiFi. ('encapsulation' was not used to mean IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation and friends).

The high mobility in OCB is contrasted to low (or no) mobility in WiFi - it means that in WiFi users are near a fixed Access Point and dont move much.  But in OCB there are no access points and cars move a lot.

High mobility in OCB may need to avoid potential interference in order
to ensure safety.  TO achieve that, it may be possible that QoS concents
become more mandatory on OCB links (than on WiFi; on WiFi the QoS
concepts are almost absent in implementations).  Thus, there may be a
need of some mapping between IPv6 QoS-specific fields and 802.11-OCB QoS-specific fields.  There may be need of other  QoS-specific fields.

So, whereas an IPv6-over-WiFi spec (which does not exist, btw) has no mapping of QoS fields of how  IPv6 is 'carried' (encapsulated) on WiFi, an IPv6-over-OCB would need some mapping of this sort, so that IPv6 is better 'carried' over OCB.  Because of mobility.

QoS is just an example of why encapsulating (carrying) IPv6 on OCB may need more than just what is needed by carring IPv6 on WiFi.

There are other examples: IPv6 addressing in OCB links requires human intervention often - it's not as plug and play as IPv6 over WiFi.  That needs easy to remember and subnet-specific link local addresses, like fe80:1::1/32.  These addresses dont exist on IPv6 altogher, let alone IPv6-over-WiFi.

There are more examples.

Remark my own difficulty  of speculating on something which does not exist: IPv6 over WiFi specification.

Alex
--------------DAEF10AD7483D84BEEF53AC0-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 04:23:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0655E12003E for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CXfS-JENsORz for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04E4E12001B for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id o9so2813924iom.3 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 04:23:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=87znNZ+nVllTRd6pzCg3Xj0+vxHyOonn/WVVwtSQsCM=; b=a3oZETC36HIS7O+Bw4EGSMMZgjySEEpPxNWVXcy+lfo749rwsaOXiT2l4ayabPBE4G mQEIUwkViRRC0+IjHFK44Nrd8XkWdiBqlABYxUtsVLIeN2FsfOaOrrftS5ShT4pOULqY i+N5eihWAn8LII7tLLwtcMHEsdKtE++vQ6Yk5Vst+RphlnxX0qRMi+ODMBIbLfepK4RD QRdEqUhNRJ5zhvBE/pMa79DMbxF4IwHj/WqYUf+xByHRjlwpDULuLLfgsgq7RecDYm6L D7MZdByJiz155e52o2DRIBrVPJGd1ASc7JP+bF1vnsnPQFpWeWxPvFOcpG3h5JadBJle EiWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=87znNZ+nVllTRd6pzCg3Xj0+vxHyOonn/WVVwtSQsCM=; b=k/ieEY7SyeHn7WtdvUsmnosjwK8fKqX+7uCURvkzKKrdKNm0+NJ5UUzBZOoJwXU7iZ +0/X+SMPqTVg3BtupcQUiftqAsUd6YJOp92aYut9rPWJyxxKZDhIMd8nmjiZZFkZOZdN tmEwW281Iqqtd7mwC8A2RSpFyHzNssglgopNwJK463lh1kfslzBtR5FzWLkubhiOyQhe PRwQW9exjM1351zM0VOcLs82TifzTWp1KWYuTRgORyO+StTrJfucekPOw9BUUKC1NFs0 tQZoPmjn570BVnfxUH/OtoJgqmbbs2RQPW+t8SNjsbR6nAi4xBYXDR3zSY97YcrPZ5g6 ShGA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXiVszENW4CMdMUEkdfq8QMA5O5irRc+cMYBSVbYbyE1ZI/W3gk BmvZXPMJ15E6fFYWPvInhBsyfgcNRHrq5NH7brhEmg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyF2fZwCNE+efjACSQCuRPyXuADU7OPfmrYoWX1zgl+yUNpdMwbI9n7rbqjbLz0rkGCf5PV0xoENpqDzSqeIFk= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:691d:: with SMTP id e29mr3324670ioc.96.1562325825198; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 04:23:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 12:23:32 +0100 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d5b217058ced533d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 11:23:48 -0000 --000000000000d5b217058ced533d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Joerg, I want to add more clarification to one of your comments > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces)." > further. > The in-vehicle interface is the Ethernet interface of a Router situated in the car. By default, a Router has many and different interfaces. This Router (in the car) has an Ethernet interface (in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface. That OCB interface has an antenna towards the outside of the car. The subnet referred to by this text, is formed by the OCB interfaces (not the Ethernet interfaces - 'in-vehicle') of the cars nearby. The 'in-vehicle' interface can be Ethernet, Bluetooth or even WiFi (WiFi onboard). > > > > > -- Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000d5b217058ced533d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Joerg,

I wan= t to add more clarification to one of your comments


sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces o= f
vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces)."= ; further.

The in-vehicle interface is the Eth= ernet interface of a Router situated in the car.=C2=A0 By default, a Router has many and = different interfaces.=C2=A0This Router (in the car) has an Ethernet interfa= ce (in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface.=C2=A0 That OCB interface has a= n antenna towards the outside of the car.

The subnet referred= to by this text, is formed by the OCB interfaces (not the Ethernet interfa= ces - 'in-vehicle') of the cars nearby.

The 'in-vehicle' inte= rface can be Ethernet, Bluetooth or even WiFi (WiFi onboard).=C2=A0<= /div>






--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000d5b217058ced533d-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 05:08:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18351201D3 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:08:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Q8BX8wCNwyP for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCACE120018 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 05:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x65C8jd2041363 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 14:08:45 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D7D0205D14 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 14:08:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11CE7205CC5 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 14:08:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x65C8iFQ008470 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 14:08:45 +0200 To: "its@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 14:08:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4AC79623C1BC23CAF36AC0CC" Content-Language: fr Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Demo involving IPv6-over-OCB X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 12:08:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4AC79623C1BC23CAF36AC0CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In this car demo the technology IPv6-over-OCB was used to communicate between 3 convoyed (platooned) selfdriving cars, in traffic. https://youtu.be/bqYy1rhdQWc It happened daily this week in tourist area, so anyone in the world literally could have filmed it. Many things are still very approximate (localisation losses, 4G losses, traffic lights errors, lat/long ctl) but IPv6-over-OCB worked without much problem. Alex --------------4AC79623C1BC23CAF36AC0CC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In this car demo the technology IPv6-over-OCB was used to communicate between 3 convoyed (platooned) selfdriving cars, in traffic.

https://youtu.be/bqYy1rhdQWc

It happened daily this week in tourist area, so anyone in the world literally could have filmed it.

Many things are still very approximate (localisation losses, 4G losses, traffic lights errors, lat/long ctl) but IPv6-over-OCB worked without much problem.

Alex

--------------4AC79623C1BC23CAF36AC0CC-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 06:32:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F39F120026; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 06:32:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <156233354131.21666.17046552907026625981.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 06:32:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:32:22 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- §4.3: I think that the MAYs used in this section are out of place as they only state facts and not Normative behavior. s/MAY/may §4.5.2: "Future improvement to this specification SHOULD consider solutions for these problems." I understand the interest to consider the problems...but I don't think there's any Normative action that results from using SHOULD. s/SHOULD/should From nobody Fri Jul 5 08:01:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A73120098 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:01:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZk0kbasw5hd for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39F6A120086 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id f4so4219583ioh.6 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 08:01:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zcZn6mlqpyar5gm7Xq78zdd6qP8N4xH6w7+s61V9dq8=; b=bUtZ1x+rUgDKkr0APGdX8AfzX9/xaw6DWuqewrBKbIQE8bciYPaib29RCf2L8ZQqyE wdP6ygNzXrJ6RPrwAWpj21SsjJSH54Q4ZezZ4bPgCv1HP2V16TcYSGKf0qk8gId6YLPw WZUzd6NIpOqBNVkxVvqSfQjg1N2DGYfcwTDXjJ/Ft+YOPY+UtNxVdjm2tblc+3Ir8MMs XkphdWvXQXk+xtj1lIPkyLLZlViirjzT6WPvFXZYtLzBdr+DQrGEB53DITJtnGVmIWT7 3tjp7rWfhN//zIuOTwPp1JB5MEVr1FVTJu+dAoO051/KWgjKmPTCJaXjnsruJgyUClPv n+gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zcZn6mlqpyar5gm7Xq78zdd6qP8N4xH6w7+s61V9dq8=; b=G/UukiAfJcZSiWrTkx5D4KSSOmy+45HHdXoLFK7TNRey8pwMrZ4j1bPZyAz9PNagf6 6WVdhY6DTRx6dQO4t7d3sCrmRnuCOFhAIK8mnNTT19kU7vTIwk0kNcj3AiFPEV4/GT/v bePaLPo/dYGIN3o8xo95vPGix2J6YtyRA3FYXl4njTJ1VXdAjCHqtavUOiPNFvnQGhr8 g6e2O88Yy9RQNPecnduMU9GBiITwnvRdbY3e3u6MIPfmPibuxznLuyFPw2fbeaGdgD19 OLWO+YmqhQaC7Pecpp6V4cN46cviMoMIE5H7OgWlLA8QmLMqhVjpssd+3CvIzAL2yZ+O WprQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVKRqZCGul6RPakzazwfSQ/YDH6mGp/vfQcqsxrnVrFDzUQs8/Q zN7I9StcUpvdKBNCt45lVGr4Ooz0ZGikNfh1l582Sg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy/jMq3jNPOddRWFKRBAYIu1ITyfi7d2Qstbg5wCqe0PMq/1S4tJ1jtzwfGRZTuiBCDDiv+1P+R4RPAp5GlKj4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:149:: with SMTP id y9mr5230083jao.76.1562338890449; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 08:01:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156233354131.21666.17046552907026625981.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156233354131.21666.17046552907026625981.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:01:19 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alvaro Retana Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095bfaf058cf05eed" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 15:01:34 -0000 --00000000000095bfaf058cf05eed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alvaro, Thank you for your review. Much appreciated! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =C2=A74.3: I think that the MAYs used in this section are out of place as= they > only > state facts and not Normative behavior. s/MAY/may > Shall we replace them by 'can' ? > > =C2=A74.5.2: "Future improvement to this specification SHOULD consider > solutions for > these problems." I understand the interest to consider the problems...bu= t > I > don't think there's any Normative action that results from using SHOULD. > s/SHOULD/should > I agree. There is no specific Normative action, but MAY or MUST do not make sens in this context! Thanks again for your comments. --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --00000000000095bfaf058cf05eed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=C2=A0Alvaro,

Thank you for your review. Much=C2=A0appreciated!

=C2=A0
----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

=C2=A74.3: I think that the MAYs used in this section are out of place as t= hey only
state facts and not Normative behavior.=C2=A0 =C2=A0s/MAY/may

Shall we replace them by 'can' ?

=C2=A0=

=C2=A74.5.2: "Future improvement to this specification SHOULD consider= solutions for
these problems."=C2=A0 I understand the interest to consider the probl= ems...but I
don't think there's any Normative action that results from using SH= OULD.
s/SHOULD/should

I agree. There is no specific Normative act= ion, but MAY or MUST do not make sens in this context!

Thanks again for your comments.


--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Co= mputer Sciences
School of Technology
<= font color=3D"#0b5394">Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
= Meknes. Morocco


=
--00000000000095bfaf058cf05eed-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 12:45:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D6B112010D; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 12:45:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cvWgEVzt7lB; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 12:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x530.google.com (mail-ed1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 190E31200EF; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 12:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x530.google.com with SMTP id s49so8812054edb.1; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 12:45:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tNEMMPBsJizEmSn0V2M3/3WXjbDEl15bKrXD0mMHCBQ=; b=W8hCMIwaN21UajvWWiHbbHWMgRlGdFRhERoibZIfvFjOJTn8D1oYlajNmpF+4vXUBV bjBuzZsekshZq1TmLoHdaRVz9wa21qa+0CdCvY4rLzXWJBqfRd/PlrWnYJI9dVavhsds dRcb7BCwXrwKoO77IM7AHT9LlJsVaR1hHNkhyHlu/LeUtn/FBdcZ5nD8S8qoTD6D0r3F lIkx8L7u4MP+pfXXYhafpcYC0AoCp1W+si3NKKQLs3thD5R1UGBsOjA0tw+yZrpMvn72 QDj1NVrlW0IrIS4Evsnqpz9eaJ+6fUcRoby3y9c9M0IsT9QH7q7N+UFAbyY4ibiVJOO/ urTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tNEMMPBsJizEmSn0V2M3/3WXjbDEl15bKrXD0mMHCBQ=; b=YbEeYxwTH/mD/Ll5O6l8i/h0LAHCnWYLSXZroMkCG73SfMxbvFcE7RTiwBgPoUEVVg +J1zJYO2HOi17NOJ6PbVu3qqrpPg1AnKKwaiaZRv9Wooj/KLgu3ppU9qIvgEWbYj1mVE o6+dBbhA2zpuQSoRrUO/hfWa0ivaq8CUiFTjX8n89eFchMBJF16YaWgZwbZhcYpmjA4A ZscAsXYrt3Jxvfq5iIJsfasPEzOq3PKitYdX96475PmTsq7Z65Ir4HjJqzXsvKSYS9F/ 11G8gnAfpD9c1Vr2tH3NZV3u14zQXAVNR4ivgufLoNBFHO8p5SeVVlpuymLV6RrGyziE 6Oag== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVC0DEb2eOkx4wHAYRcGdF2h4kGrTjAS+2EYonCOnpx+k5VuNWF kdX66U25EcnnvGrmtoqjBtiSl67A5DRaQp0mT8A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzEG8lh8ddTrIflERw/Ffd7UGzYbmNDd6U6iyTWJ5uCYZzPTzXSjwUGNvQ1AmzFfeFl0sgt3Nfez1ElXTfN3wY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4552:: with SMTP id s18mr5021505ejq.271.1562355941623; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 12:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 19:45:41 +0000 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <156233354131.21666.17046552907026625981.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 19:45:41 +0000 Message-ID: To: Nabil Benamar Cc: Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9cb9d058cf45682" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 19:45:45 -0000 --000000000000e9cb9d058cf45682 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On July 5, 2019 at 11:01:31 AM, Nabil Benamar (n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma) wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =C2=A74.3: I think that the MAYs used in this section are out of place as t= hey only state facts and not Normative behavior. s/MAY/may Shall we replace them by 'can' ? Sure=E2=80=A6that works for me. Thanks! Alvaro. --000000000000e9cb9d058cf45682 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On July 5, 2019 at 11:01:31 AM, Nabil Benamar (n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma) wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
COMMENT:
--------------------------------------------------------------= --------

=C2=A74.3: I think that the MAYs used in this section are out of pl= ace as they only
state facts and not Normative behavior.=C2=A0 =C2=A0s/MAY/m= ay

Shall we replace them by 'can' ?

Sure=E2=80=A6that works= for me.=C2=A0

Thanks!

<= font face=3D"Helvetica">Alvaro.

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Thank= you, Alvaro!
I will update t= he draft as soon as I receive ALL remaining comments from the reviewers.

All the Best

On Fri, Jul 5= , 2019 at 8:45 PM Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On July 5, 2019 at 11:01:31 AM, = Nabil Benamar (n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma) wrote:
=
--------------------------------------------------------= --------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------= ------------

=C2=A74.3: I think that the MAYs used in this section are out of pla= ce as they only
state facts and not Norma= tive behavior.=C2=A0 =C2=A0s/MAY/may

Shall we replace them by 'can' ?
<= /blockquote>

Sure=E2=80=A6that works for m= e.=C2=A0

Thanks!

Alvaro.




--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--0000000000006d88fa058cf4ab99-- From nobody Fri Jul 5 13:28:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA2A12011E for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:28:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 250KYyKUCBkR for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96098120119 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id s7so21542721iob.11 for ; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9nP7Y14U9fXKOgbS3eOEVjdjCxBmhYwWormdo7ZsTfk=; b=sES+cCwbqs+xyEIIFEU1epuhAyT5r61QLkGvY0eGPpmoSvmxstD9gzA55xz1AcsFle FC9aENmhd7tggO1Ql03NSVG4HPRFfdbEVypncyHKCMa4M6xGnc/F49uXzJ7Y+88jMOtC sxmDsaYdzA/M2VGaoYFXmYqYkHSIwoz2JLk+KWWtQg3k6QHXtta7n0cFzIZOkI4qcxAO sJehnODYU75Bjes1xdc8GJ2T0WlqMAO5dTS6m3dNh3Uh74A9m2GLfXtPy3cWTGcFO4Qz +u6+/6G58kq+eoogVmVsn3Au2MSkbVQnvJKojQMJ3Blzaxaj9SONuZgPHPsCeyOVxdfD yo6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9nP7Y14U9fXKOgbS3eOEVjdjCxBmhYwWormdo7ZsTfk=; b=tPcReTdQ6WL5oSie4fj1W+I37YuzmLJrNzoGEb6esIFQ1vW5n1etJGI1RNZY/8uPyv c+g3cM2GCneNX342nI0/SpkXQH1x906HCIwT90MCTC+uR7UQyydFWlmPExJuwT8cxFWa DCeVaEd5MsBrkZyoAgFpvyqFVkBjJ7zwffOZZ6lSfCtDp8iyTmV3mslOnQ1siSkPJ+up 38SxXAb4dGXalzeHANq0Pfd7nPZRhagxgbyVY1dAn2+kpA8F06Fl1h3kU7f/6WhyjJKY 4sasOrKM3rdoe7TVNYL/Tp6sGIQ7Eabcjg2NvPaviBP8QNDJ9DABcBj32h8pv9Uakwj1 GDvA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWLxaxOd+vPibDaMx6gLi/Cuc+PUWrPOksV9dHu740HXyx26ca8 rbDsjnvIygk7StqGXB0YLloMzFsdVyLW5i2O4rt6WA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxLsT0Sb5PXQA/jeIgCCDoNhEWWCLgkz/uKwdoP+CB0HbHi/9to3TqQCg14RA+iIDuyaUF7eeX4pp9vma/C3kU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:691d:: with SMTP id e29mr5746111ioc.96.1562358502712; Fri, 05 Jul 2019 13:28:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> <37386336-7f59-7e6f-03d4-2f7994304f74@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <37386336-7f59-7e6f-03d4-2f7994304f74@gmail.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 21:28:11 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Joerg Ott , tsv-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000912f33058cf4ef09" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 20:28:26 -0000 --000000000000912f33058cf4ef09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alex, Thank you for your exhaustive clarifications! Indeed, the word encapsulation may be understood/interpreted in different ways! I will replace it with 'Transportation' in the next update. On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:15 PM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Le 27/06/2019 =C3=A0 18:38, Joerg Ott via Datatracker a =C3=A9crit : > [...] > > App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"? > > The paragraph in question is this: > > > > Appendix E. Design Considerations > > > > The networks defined by 802.11-OCB are in many ways similar to other > > networks of the 802.11 family. In theory, the encapsulation of IPv6 > > over 802.11-OCB could be very similar to the operation of IPv6 over > > other networks of the 802.11 family. However, the high mobility, > > strong link asymmetry and very short connection makes the 802.11-OCB > > link significantly different from other 802.11 networks. Also, the > > automotive applications have specific requirements for reliability, > > security and privacy, which further add to the particularity of the > > 802.11-OCB link. > > There a huge list of Design Considerations in the main matter. More and > more reviews led to skinning it to just one paragraph, depicted above. > > Let me try to answer to the question of why would high mobility affect > encapsulation. > > First, the word encapsulation seems to have captured your attention. I > hope it is for a good reason, but frankly speaking I do not know the > reason why it attracted it. To clarify, let me say that the word > 'encapsulation' was used to signify 'carrying' IPv6 datagrams on > 802.11-OCB. One expects IPv6 to be carried over OCB as over WiFi. > ('encapsulation' was not used to mean IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation and > friends). > > The high mobility in OCB is contrasted to low (or no) mobility in WiFi - > it means that in WiFi users are near a fixed Access Point and dont move > much. But in OCB there are no access points and cars move a lot. > > High mobility in OCB may need to avoid potential interference in order > to ensure safety. TO achieve that, it may be possible that QoS concents > become more mandatory on OCB links (than on WiFi; on WiFi the QoS > concepts are almost absent in implementations). Thus, there may be a > need of some mapping between IPv6 QoS-specific fields and 802.11-OCB > QoS-specific fields. There may be need of other QoS-specific fields. > > So, whereas an IPv6-over-WiFi spec (which does not exist, btw) has no > mapping of QoS fields of how IPv6 is 'carried' (encapsulated) on WiFi, > an IPv6-over-OCB would need some mapping of this sort, so that IPv6 is > better 'carried' over OCB. Because of mobility. > > QoS is just an example of why encapsulating (carrying) IPv6 on OCB may > need more than just what is needed by carring IPv6 on WiFi. > > There are other examples: IPv6 addressing in OCB links requires human > intervention often - it's not as plug and play as IPv6 over WiFi. That > needs easy to remember and subnet-specific link local addresses, like > fe80:1::1/32. These addresses dont exist on IPv6 altogher, let alone > IPv6-over-WiFi. > > There are more examples. > > Remark my own difficulty of speculating on something which does not > exist: IPv6 over WiFi specification. > > Alex > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000912f33058cf4ef09 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex,

Thank yo= u for your exhaustive clarifications!

Indeed, the word encapsulation may be understood/interpreted in di= fferent ways!
I will replace = it with 'Transportation' in the next update.



On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:15 PM Alexandre= Petrescu <alexandre.pet= rescu@gmail.com> wrote:


Le 27/06/2019 =C3=A0 18:38, Joerg Ott via Datatracker a =C3=A9crit :
[...]
> App. E: why would high mobility affect encapsulation"?

The paragraph in question is this:
>
> Appendix E.=C2=A0 Design Considerations
>
> The networks defined by 802.11-OCB are in many ways similar to other <= br> > networks of the 802.11 family.=C2=A0 In theory, the encapsulation of I= Pv6
> over 802.11-OCB could be very similar to the operation of IPv6 over > other networks of the 802.11 family.=C2=A0 However, the high mobility,=
> strong link asymmetry and very short connection makes the 802.11-OCB <= br> > link significantly different from other 802.11 networks.=C2=A0 Also, t= he
> automotive applications have specific requirements for reliability, > security and privacy, which further add to the particularity of the > 802.11-OCB link.

There a huge list of Design Considerations in the main matter.=C2=A0 More a= nd
more reviews led to skinning it to just one paragraph, depicted above.

Let me try to answer to the question of why would high mobility affect
encapsulation.

First, the word encapsulation seems to have captured your attention.=C2=A0 = I
hope it is for a good reason, but frankly speaking I do not know the
reason why it attracted it.=C2=A0 To clarify, let me say that the word
'encapsulation' was used to signify 'carrying' IPv6 datagra= ms on
802.11-OCB.=C2=A0 One expects IPv6 to be carried over OCB as over WiFi. ('encapsulation' was not used to mean IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation an= d
friends).

The high mobility in OCB is contrasted to low (or no) mobility in WiFi - it means that in WiFi users are near a fixed Access Point and dont move much.=C2=A0 But in OCB there are no access points and cars move a lot.

High mobility in OCB may need to avoid potential interference in order
to ensure safety.=C2=A0 TO achieve that, it may be possible that QoS concen= ts
become more mandatory on OCB links (than on WiFi; on WiFi the QoS
concepts are almost absent in implementations).=C2=A0 Thus, there may be a<= br> need of some mapping between IPv6 QoS-specific fields and 802.11-OCB
QoS-specific fields.=C2=A0 There may be need of other=C2=A0 QoS-specific fi= elds.

So, whereas an IPv6-over-WiFi spec (which does not exist, btw) has no
mapping of QoS fields of how=C2=A0 IPv6 is 'carried' (encapsulated)= on WiFi,
an IPv6-over-OCB would need some mapping of this sort, so that IPv6 is
better 'carried' over OCB.=C2=A0 Because of mobility.

QoS is just an example of why encapsulating (carrying) IPv6 on OCB may
need more than just what is needed by carring IPv6 on WiFi.

There are other examples: IPv6 addressing in OCB links requires human
intervention often - it's not as plug and play as IPv6 over WiFi.=C2=A0= That
needs easy to remember and subnet-specific link local addresses, like
fe80:1::1/32.=C2=A0 These addresses dont exist on IPv6 altogher, let alone =
IPv6-over-WiFi.

There are more examples.

Remark my own difficulty=C2=A0 of speculating on something which does not <= br> exist: IPv6 over WiFi specification.

Alex


--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000912f33058cf4ef09-- From nobody Sat Jul 6 08:57:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E1A120045; Sat, 6 Jul 2019 08:57:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: its@ietf.org Message-ID: <156242863353.15258.16169165340221348296@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 08:57:13 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 15:57:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Basic Support for IPv6 over IEEE Std 802.11 Networks Operating Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set (IPv6-over-80211-OCB) Authors : Nabil Benamar Jerome Haerri Jong-Hyouk Lee Thierry Ernst Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2019-07-06 Abstract: This document provides methods and settings, and describes limitations, for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link. This support does only require minimal changes to existing stacks. Optimizations and usage of IPv6 over more complex scenarios is not covered in this specification and is subject of future work. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 7 08:33:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CBC120048; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 08:33:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <156251363053.14592.11281412645586709303.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 08:33:50 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 15:33:51 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the work put into this document. Interesting use case ;-) Beside the 3 COMMENTs below, I have a question: my understanding is that this is a P2P link, so, layer-3 multicast packets could easily be sent over unicast layer-2 IF the other peer is known with its layer-2 address which is possibly known when forming a OCB "association" (but I am not a WiFi person at all). Just curious here ;-) Regards, -éric == COMMENTS == -- Section 3 -- It is unclear whether a IP-OBU <-> IP-OBU is a use case of this document (it is mentionned in 4.6 though but it would help the reader to have it mentioned in section 3). -- Section 4.4 -- In the discussion of SLAAC, there should be a mention on the presence or absence of Router Advertisement and if RA are used: - which entity sends this RA (probably IP-RSU), - does RA contain PIO ? - what are the recommendation for router lifetime (and PIO timers) ? -- Missing -- Duplicate Address Detection is only mentioned in Appendix I and it is unclear whether optimistic DAD (even for LLA) should/must be used. From nobody Sun Jul 7 13:11:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379BA120176 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GP16hOkfNkSq for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62B1F1201D3 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 13:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id o9so14753558iom.3 for ; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 13:10:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7MTO/YrOqiM9Xk+Qg07S3CYxa1/ltSSecnPXi6WfEA4=; b=AObKpbu9M6gLYm917HpsUeDxupmJ5LPOkADJgOJYYm/NZLs47ojJ0T+g/5oVaiyW82 wSE+SERRB5XeBxLtpyeZM83VsCJcRpFcp6fyIApoGvt3WAqlgZt8syc4b+gdeTLjfh3u f6WeDy1NafSzrpNQq0i+7V+pA0FGuh5kEjWb7UuOze3HpdiWl4lFJY44QPvWLHunVi4h yeNMQ1x50jhoNpI+V6wPvTprzWc5Mg05mVcoRciGKOJp7PPvZIFs9FlJMk9MN7dQorEm 973RC2LOWddD6asLMsRNgKuGc/04KYm4TlKhF6wQG4ryYkN8e66ZgJQ2lrWruYNowD2v vp+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7MTO/YrOqiM9Xk+Qg07S3CYxa1/ltSSecnPXi6WfEA4=; b=L1TnYp7Yqie8rMCS/qlBiv4V5/p5/A/vmmHdSYE10GtOSFKBdOhyieiRlHOSl/ApRk 3OVu2qoMM2VByYRCrkPaGxXK2NlAK30aYJG4ZmMMchsOhE148jcY5l9K3ccNDtuoMK2/ 4tZgcUDpK95njya02P4fHTtuIGAAb8yFDHaZy+cPsWnrPpktrb2pWznmvo1sCuGKv2lj uHs4ozRBKOBVft2n1rH20crat/Qpd3iEwUZvRLQ7Z6bKOMrje4k4DcN/b44Q+rXnmWz8 F/D+0HQwMshP8f0sT9AICfzCzMkj1vNbErWuVUm1aA6qL9qAaroARGTCRxlc8+dSpFRy 8bTg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXLd7qPMBtDXnN7G5d5WFIu2R1aqCuNshS3kdVzcLlc8dLrqj7I 1oQkbsGz/2s19dRb5+BrOuZkbyXzpzraix5KjoSxug== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx1SZsvIt9fFd+axZDC4OrbHaNuL/wHtUY2Gt0riynukMPo3N7TrhH2zYn2/pkBnhWr5Ffre6RKZAgFx1iiRu8= X-Received: by 2002:a02:a90a:: with SMTP id n10mr16747135jam.61.1562530252547; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156251363053.14592.11281412645586709303.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156251363053.14592.11281412645586709303.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 21:10:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?w4lyaWMgVnluY2tl?= Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a77f77058d1cecd1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 20:11:15 -0000 --000000000000a77f77058d1cecd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear =C3=89ric, I would like to sincerely thank you for your review. Much appreciated! Please see my answers in-line below. On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 4:33 PM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker wrote: > =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thank you for the work put into this document. Interesting use case ;-) > > Beside the 3 COMMENTs below, I have a question: my understanding is that > this > is a P2P link, so, layer-3 multicast packets could easily be sent over > unicast > layer-2 IF the other peer is known with its layer-2 address which is > possibly > known when forming a OCB "association" (but I am not a WiFi person at all= ). > Just curious here ;-) > Intersting comment. The thing is that there is no association process in OCB. Though it belongs to the IEEE 802.11 familly, there are some differences. As we said in the text: OCB (outside the context of a basic service set - BSS): is a mode of operation in which a STA is not a member of a BSS and does not utilize IEEE Std 802.11 authentication, association, or data confidentiality. > Regards, > > -=C3=A9ric > > =3D=3D COMMENTS =3D=3D > > -- Section 3 -- > > It is unclear whether a IP-OBU <-> IP-OBU is a use case of this document > (it is > mentionned in 4.6 though but it would help the reader to have it mentione= d > in > section 3). > The link model is the following: STA --- 802.11-OCB --- STA. In vehicular networks, STAs can be IP-RSUs and/or IP-OBUs > > -- Section 4.4 -- > > In the discussion of SLAAC, there should be a mention on the presence or > absence of Router Advertisement and if RA are used: - which entity sends > this > RA (probably IP-RSU), - does RA contain PIO ? - what are the > recommendation for > router lifetime (and PIO timers) ? > I agree. We need to add a mention about who sends RAs > > -- Missing -- > > Duplicate Address Detection is only mentioned in Appendix I and it is > unclear > whether optimistic DAD (even for LLA) should/must be used. > In section 4.5.1, we say that : This document is scoped for Address Resolution (AR) and Duplicate Address Detection (DAD) per RFC 4861 Thanks again. --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000a77f77058d1cecd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=C2=A0=C3=89ric,

I would like to sincerely thank you for your review. Much=C2=A0apprecia= ted!

Please see my answers in= -line below.

On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 4:33 PM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datat= racker <noreply@ietf.org> wro= te:
=C3=89ric Vy= ncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you=C2=A0 for the work put into this document. Interesting use case ;= -)

Beside the 3 COMMENTs below, I have a question: my understanding is that th= is
is a P2P link, so, layer-3 multicast packets could easily be sent over unic= ast
layer-2 IF the other peer is known with its layer-2 address which is possib= ly
known when forming a OCB "association" (but I am not a WiFi perso= n at all).
Just curious here ;-)

Intersting comment. The thing is that= there is no association process in OCB. Though it belongs to the IEEE 802.= 11 familly, there are some differences.
As we said in the text:
OCB (outside the context of a basic ser=
vice set - BSS): is a mode of
   operation in which a STA is not a member of a BSS and does not
   utilize IEEE Std 802.11 authentication, association, or data=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0confidentiality.<= /div>

=

Regards,

-=C3=A9ric

=3D=3D COMMENTS =3D=3D

-- Section 3 --

It is unclear whether a IP-OBU <-> IP-OBU is a use case of this docum= ent (it is
mentionned in 4.6 though but it would help the reader to have it mentioned = in
section 3).

The link model is the following: STA --- 802.11-=
OCB --- STA.  In=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0vehicular networks, STAs can be IP-RS= Us and/or IP-OBUs=C2=A0

-- Section 4.4 --

In the discussion of SLAAC, there should be a mention on the presence or absence of Router Advertisement and if RA are used: - which entity sends th= is
RA (probably IP-RSU), - does RA contain PIO ? - what are the recommendation= for
router lifetime (and PIO timers) ?

I agree. We need to add = a mention about who sends RAs

-- Missing --

Duplicate Address Detection is only mentioned in Appendix I and it is uncle= ar
whether optimistic DAD (even for LLA) should/must be used.
=
In sectio= n 4.5.1, we say that :
This document is scoped for Address Resolution (AR) and Duplica=
te=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Addr= ess Detection (DAD) per RFC 4861=C2=A0

Thanks again.

--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Sciences
School of Technology
Moulay Is= mail=C2=A0Univ= ersity=C2=A0
Meknes. = Morocco


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Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6AD21200D7 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:01:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=earthlink.net; s=dk12062016; t=1562551319; bh=cJKiXRoht6cRljILwNDklcb8eIVBSyjJQssD n+UUn0Y=; h=Received:From:Subject:To:Cc:References:Message-ID:Date: User-Agent:MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Language: X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; b=bg9THwhEFKloR709q7swrBjSZspVPSKIL idCIX9eS0W22jIxOsKD48aSbtv8qSDAC+iWGyHE9+sjP2elkv0ULuHOnO1yHI/e2xm/ YhHU5TissSU+VehGyhNacXSvOcBDbz48ifaXknUjpIvAZ9Zou3/ppq4KngwITx95g1D 0QOR0HdaH2l3NEp3FpJfGeYu1dA9GzH9O1keME/QVhRWHzPKXtjVrRLQ/5Sv8e1mmko Sys/hgnz91uM8e/nfM45x+CfEHSTgM9/vFsoTnMIRZ+708mjm/F1va4aRPYRgyOWc6J m2O2vkVSnBDhYj8DmQVaGBmIsow+bdKn7+Ry4IvMw== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; 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WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2ED26E783F7EB866976E0338" Content-Language: en-US X-ELNK-Trace: 137d7d78656ed6919973fd6a8f21c4f2d780f4a490ca6956846b590522b13c95fba90c236850d7e419d4fbcd9764b9e8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.51.72.196 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 02:02:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2ED26E783F7EB866976E0338 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Paul, I have reviewed the document.  I think it still needs some improvements as described below. - It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better than simply a routing protocol between moving networks. - The discussions about DNS need better motivation. - I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements and latency bounds.  The inclusion of numbers like 1 second, .5 second, and 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations.  Given some knowledge of DSRC range and typical speeds for motor vehicles, you should be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic. - The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with cross references to other parts of the document. - The "Changes" section should have detailed what was changed, instead of just saying that resolutions were included for our comments. - I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs.  I think this would be a bad idea.  Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET. - In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless media. - In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge into one network.  An example is needed for this. - In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should be prevented by cooperation between good nodes.  But no suggestion is made about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or be compromised.  Similarly, it is not suggested how to identify authorized vehicles. Regards, Charlie P. On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote: > Charlie, > Thanks for your time. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019년 7월 5일 (금) 오후 12:10, Charlie Perkins > >님이 작성: > > Hello Paul, > > > It's on my list to read tomorrow. > > > Regards, > Charlie P. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong > > *Sent:* Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM > *To:* Charlie Perkins > *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ > Housley; Sri Gundavelli > *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt > Hi Charlie, > Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft? > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 > > > > Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current > version or not. > > I believe that I addresses all your previous comments > even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the > problems for IPWAVE. > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO > > wrote: > > I’ll wait until Charlie reviews it to do my review. > > Thanks! > > Carlos > > On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong > > wrote: > > Charlie, > Thanks a lot. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019년 6월 25일 (화) 오전 10:57, Charlie Perkins > >님이 작성: > > Hello Paul and all, > > > I will attempt to review the draft later this week. > > > Regards, > Charlie P. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong > > *Sent:* Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM > *To:* CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO > *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; > Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com > ; Sri Gundavelli; > Jaehoon Paul Jeong > *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt > Hi Carlos, > It seems Charlie is busy. > I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on > the draft. > > Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC > before the IETF-105 meeting? > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019년 6월 24일 (월) 오후 12:49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong > >님이 작성: > > Sri, > Okay. > I will not change the text about ND. > > Let's wait for Charlie's response. > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019년 6월 24일 (월) 오후 12:44, Sri Gundavelli > (sgundave) >님이 작성: > > Hi Paul, > > Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG > review process. If you can revert ND related > multi-hop text and references that will be > good. Unfortunately, that’s the most > controversial topic and we don’t need to > muddle the waters bringing that discussion > into this. We need to optimize ND and lets > leave it at that level. > > > > Thanks > Sri > > > > From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" > > > Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM > To: Sri Gundavelli >, > "charles.perkins@earthlink.net > " > > > Cc: Russ Housley >, CARLOS JESUS > BERNARDOS CANO >, > "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com > " > >, > "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com > " > > > Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt > > Hi Sri, > I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 > reference for ND in the revision by focusing > on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1. > > Charlie, > Do you have any comments on the current version? > > To make this draft go forward, we need your > review and comments. > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019년 6월 24일 (월) 오후 12:09, Sri Gundavelli > (sgundave) >님이 작성: > > Hi Paul, > > I have reviewed the –09 version and the > delta from –08. > > The spec has surely improved and you have > now eliminated bunch of unnecessary text. > This is good and thanks for those > improvements. However, in ND section, I > see lot of new text and RFC 8505 > references. I thought the goal here was to > address the comments. Why would we add > next text, scenarios and spec references > at this stage? Specifically, 5.1,  5.1.1.1? > > > Sri > > > > > > > > From: its > on behalf > of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" > > > Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM > To: Charlie Perkins > >, Sri > Gundavelli > > Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com > " > >, > "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > >, > "its@ietf.org " > >, Russ > Housley >, > "Tom.Oh@rit.edu " > >, > CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO > >, > "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com > " > > > Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt > > Hi Charlie and Sri, > Could you review the revised draft for > IPWAVE PS and confirm that you are happy > with the revision? > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 > > > Your confirmation can allow for the next > step of our PS draft. > > If you have some places to improve, please > let me know. > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019년 5월 25일 (토) 오후 1:29, Mr. Jaehoon > Paul Jeong >님이 작성: > > Hi IPWAVE WG, > I have submitted the revision of our > IPWAVE PS draft: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 > > > > According to the request of Sri and > Russ, this version is focused on > the problem statement about three key > aspects of IP-based vehicular networking, > such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility > Management, and Security & Privacy. > > For the Neighbor Discovery, I used > Pascal's text about the problem > statement about > the ND at 802.11-OCB. > Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and > I acknowledged his contribution in the > draft. > > Carlos, > Could you review this version and give > me your comments to move forward > toward WGLC? > > Thanks. > > Paul > > On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM > > wrote: > > > A New Internet-Draft is available > from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the > IP Wireless Access in Vehicular > Environments WG of the IETF. > >         Title          : IP > Wireless Access in Vehicular > Environments (IPWAVE): Problem > Statement and Use Cases > Author   : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor) > Filename   : > draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >         Pages          : 28 >         Date           : 2019-05-24 > > Abstract: >    This document discusses the > problem statement and use cases of IP- >    based vehicular networking for > Intelligent Transportation Systems >    (ITS).  The main scenarios of > vehicular communications are vehicle- >    to-vehicle (V2V), > vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), > and vehicle-to- >    everything (V2X) > communications. First, this > document explains use >    cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X > networking. Next, it makes a problem >    statement about key aspects in > IP-based vehicular networking, such as >    IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, > Mobility Management, and Security > & Privacy. >    For each key aspect, this > document specifies requirements in > IP-based >    vehicular networking, and > suggests the direction of solutions >    satisfying those requirements. > > > The IETF datatracker status page > for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ > > > There are also htmlized versions > available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 > > > A diff from the previous version > is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 > > > > Please note that it may take a > couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and > diff are available at > tools.ietf.org > . > > Internet-Drafts are also available > by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > > > -- > =========================== > Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Software > Sungkyunkwan University > Office: +82-31-299-4957 > Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com > , > pauljeong@skku.edu > > Personal Homepage: > http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php > > > -- > Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing > errors. > > > > -- > =========================== > Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Software > Sungkyunkwan University > Office: +82-31-299-4957 > Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com , > pauljeong@skku.edu > Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php > > --------------2ED26E783F7EB866976E0338 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hello Paul,

I have reviewed the document.  I think it still needs some improvements as described below.

- It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better than simply a routing protocol between moving networks.

- The discussions about DNS need better motivation.

- I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements and latency bounds.  The inclusion of numbers like 1 second, .5 second, and 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations.  Given some knowledge of DSRC range and typical speeds for motor vehicles, you should be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic.

- The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with cross references to other parts of the document.

- The "Changes" section should have detailed what was changed, instead of just saying that resolutions were included for our comments.

- I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs.  I think this would be a bad idea.  Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET.

- In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless media.

- In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge into one network.  An example is needed for this.

- In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should be prevented by cooperation between good nodes.  But no suggestion is made about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or be compromised.  Similarly, it is not suggested how to identify authorized vehicles.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote:
Charlie,
Thanks for your time.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019년 7월 5일 (금) 오후 12:10, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>님이 작성:

Hello Paul,


It's on my list to read tomorrow.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM
To: Charlie Perkins
Cc: Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; Sri Gundavelli
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt
 
Hi Charlie,
Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft?
 
Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version or not.

I believe that I addresses all your previous comments 
even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the problems for IPWAVE.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
I’ll wait until Charlie reviews it to do my review.

Thanks!

Carlos

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,
Thanks a lot.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019년 6월 25일 (화) 오전 10:57, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>님이 작성:

Hello Paul and all,


I will attempt to review the draft later this week.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM
To: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO
Cc: Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt
 
Hi Carlos,
It seems Charlie is busy.
I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft.

Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-105 meeting?

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019년 6월 24일 (월) 오후 12:49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>님이 작성:
Sri,
Okay.
I will not change the text about ND.

Let's wait for Charlie's response.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019년 6월 24일 (월) 오후 12:44, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgundave@cisco.com>님이 작성:
Hi Paul,

Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. Unfortunately, that’s the most controversial topic and we don’t need to muddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimize ND and lets leave it at that level.



Thanks
Sri



From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM
To: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>, "charles.perkins@earthlink.net" <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Cc: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt

Hi Sri,
I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1.

Charlie,
Do you have any comments on the current version?

To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019년 6월 24일 (월) 오후 12:09, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgundave@cisco.com>님이 작성:
Hi Paul,

I have reviewed the –09 version and the delta from –08.

The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. However, in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought the goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1,  5.1.1.1? 


Sri





 


From: its <its-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM
To: Charlie Perkins <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" <skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" <its@ietf.org>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" <Tom.Oh@rit.edu>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt

Hi Charlie and Sri,
Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you are happy with the revision?


Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft.

If you have some places to improve, please let me know.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019년 5월 25일 (토) 오후 1:29, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>님이 작성:
Hi IPWAVE WG,
I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft:
 
According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on 
the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular networking,
such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy.

For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem statement about
the ND at 802.11-OCB. 
Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution in the draft.

Carlos,
Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward toward WGLC?

Thanks.

Paul

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF.

        Title           : IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases
        Author          : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor)
        Filename        : draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt
        Pages           : 28
        Date            : 2019-05-24

Abstract:
   This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP-
   based vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems
   (ITS).  The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle-
   to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to-
   everything (V2X) communications.  First, this document explains use
   cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking.  Next, it makes a problem
   statement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as
   IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy.
   For each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based
   vehicular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions
   satisfying those requirements.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
===========================
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
--
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors.


--
===========================
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
--------------2ED26E783F7EB866976E0338-- From nobody Sun Jul 7 19:34:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422601200F1 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:34:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.397 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HK_NAME_FM_MR_MRS=1.499, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URI_HEX=0.1, URI_NOVOWEL=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I4bcTHtqEJiy for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AF201200D8 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 19:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id n9so6108869wrr.4 for ; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 19:34:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C9z8Qtr32O7vEsmMWrhzjag3krrM69wyHxDoiKrjpjQ=; b=gRwQ0gsLrjwaRqrsQ7uLUO8VrbmLHT7AKRf/zRHlSY1LEFylgTFa3RrbvwpcpagGuD 9vOF14N1/WksUxd3+6Ir/WalDDd9BEmaBuW1j6lbanyN7wajZ/ewPkIm6vrViPvP9uAU 7aZGzvLrXw2FTJXVBZsNyZ5HbYgmrCO//azqCkJu1DTQ3IEcnPv1Sn+VF1mq9tYEc4lz GsltnOJ75ncBECmyoJusJJy13ML0eODs3Wf7q4WMLx7kSv1alWVViEJLgoY+ppgrlAHn LL0Lk99Rz7QpPm/ZDqKoVU01OmEUKE7MyEhda+bIjyl1fLt6eaVYTAbM7nchHxcR52ut VMJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C9z8Qtr32O7vEsmMWrhzjag3krrM69wyHxDoiKrjpjQ=; b=h2kw2VfzDrVg07c22x0CPs3wFCp9f39ekvuRHA+htBQWRO97GlZlUsIjXThovH6hLh wPx4rC/Zv0f4gd/V0sQDDwbD0zs6FtS4Piyim4KhKjP3//ZNNWRONxpof1w0V+kQwte0 qa4FKUyc+AgUrObmGOPWPz5ABGQAikjSldHSytB4oF/7j5IxYcUifXNldlJHj/ri+6UO G+UtLOqvjp5GPBKESZ5fXKTMHrOUuCusb4zrS9GubYb8u/lJAz2o+ZSju/YKhOoyOpqC 6DD8dbxmE9Hruyx1ZdWkfxNK65R9PxHLr1sdsNIf56fH7++x9Kjz5jMlE6COEoa3c+sC R+cA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUjLwrjLrDbWhr1QKdWVy33GJmbclhvHNR5hTgADKWKHsYP3X/p ESvArGRYwlgWyuY+ugSfWrfhNXPYC22ZPCMLjRk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxhmpz36vnFgV7UGJMpVW7/aeBzrCpXPTu8iTZhqsyeyU/9tM2UVTdbnehrnJN7+QRJPCXvzsPxn/qKhXymJms= X-Received: by 2002:adf:eb89:: with SMTP id t9mr14897237wrn.120.1562553292657; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 19:34:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155875810707.27384.10372786061867898561@ietfa.amsl.com> <62449a99-3289-555b-39ce-e56489f3b5a8@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <62449a99-3289-555b-39ce-e56489f3b5a8@earthlink.net> From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:34:16 +0900 Message-ID: To: Charlie Perkins Cc: "its@ietf.org" , skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com, "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f39826058d224943" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 02:34:58 -0000 --000000000000f39826058d224943 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charlie, Thanks for your detailed comments. I will address yours one by one by a revision letter. Thanks. Best Regards, Paul On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM Charlie Perkins < charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote: > Hello Paul, > > I have reviewed the document. I think it still needs some improvements a= s > described below. > > - It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better > than simply a routing protocol between moving networks. > > - The discussions about DNS need better motivation. > > - I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements > and latency bounds. The inclusion of numbers like 1 second, .5 second, a= nd > 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations. Given some > knowledge of DSRC range and typical speeds for motor vehicles, you should > be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic. > > - The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with > cross references to other parts of the document. > > - The "Changes" section should have detailed what was changed, instead of > just saying that resolutions were included for our comments. > > - I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global > prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs. I think this would = be > a bad idea. Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET. > > - In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems= , > our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-bas= ed > protocols over wireless media. > > - In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge > into one network. An example is needed for this. > > - In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should > be prevented by cooperation between good nodes. But no suggestion is mad= e > about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the > likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or = be > compromised. Similarly, it is not suggested how to identify authorized > vehicles. > > Regards, > Charlie P. > > > On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote: > > Charlie, > Thanks for your time. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:10,= Charlie Perkins =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 > =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: > >> Hello Paul, >> >> >> It's on my list to read tomorrow. >> >> >> Regards, >> Charlie P. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM >> *To:* Charlie Perkins >> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; Sri >> Gundavelli >> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Charlie, >> Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft? >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> >> Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version or >> not. >> >> I believe that I addresses all your previous comments >> even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the problem= s >> for IPWAVE. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >> cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote: >> >> I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie reviews it to do my review. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Carlos >> >> On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Charlie, >> Thanks a lot. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 10:5= 7, Charlie Perkins =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hello Paul and all, >> >> >> I will attempt to review the draft later this week. >> >> >> Regards, >> Charlie P. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >> *Sent:* Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM >> *To:* CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO >> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri >> Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong >> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Carlos, >> It seems Charlie is busy. >> I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft. >> >> Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-105 >> meeting? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:4= 9, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Sri, >> Okay. >> I will not change the text about ND. >> >> Let's wait for Charlie's response. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:4= 4, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can >> revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. >> Unfortunately, that=E2=80=99s the most controversial topic and we don=E2= =80=99t need to >> muddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimiz= e >> ND and lets leave it at that level. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> Sri >> >> >> >> From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" >> Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM >> To: Sri Gundavelli , "charles.perkins@earthlink.net" >> >> Cc: Russ Housley , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >> cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" < >> Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Sri, >> I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the >> revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1. >> >> Charlie, >> Do you have any comments on the current version? >> >> To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:0= 9, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 version and the delta from =E2=80=9308. >> >> The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of >> unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. Howeve= r, >> in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought = the >> goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, >> scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, 5.1.1.1= ? >> >> >> Sri >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: its on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >> Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM >> To: Charlie Perkins , Sri Gundavelli < >> sgundave@cisco.com> >> Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" < >> skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" < >> pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" , Russ Housley < >> housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" , CARLOS JESUS >> BERNARDOS CANO , "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Charlie and Sri, >> Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you ar= e >> happy with the revision? >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft. >> >> If you have some places to improve, please let me know. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 5=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:29= , Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hi IPWAVE WG, >> I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> >> According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on >> the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular >> networking, >> such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. >> >> For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem >> statement about >> the ND at 802.11-OCB. >> Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution in >> the draft. >> >> Carlos, >> Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward >> toward WGLC? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Paul >> >> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM wrote: >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular >> Environments WG of the IETF. >> >> Title : IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments >> (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases >> Author : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor) >> Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> Pages : 28 >> Date : 2019-05-24 >> >> Abstract: >> This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP- >> based vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems >> (ITS). The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle- >> to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to- >> everything (V2X) communications. First, this document explains use >> cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking. Next, it makes a problem >> statement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as >> IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. >> For each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based >> vehicular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions >> satisfying those requirements. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ >> >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networ= king-09 >> >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networki= ng-09 >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org >> >> . >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> >> >> >> -- >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Department of Software >> Sungkyunkwan University >> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >> >> >> -- >> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors. >> >> >> >> -- >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Department of Software >> Sungkyunkwan University >> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >> >> > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Software Sungkyunkwan University Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php --000000000000f39826058d224943 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Charlie,
Thanks for your detailed comments.

I will address yours one by one by a revision letter.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
<= div>Paul
=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM Charlie Perk= ins <charles.perkins@ea= rthlink.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hello Paul,

I have reviewed the document.=C2=A0 I think it still needs some improvements as described below.

- It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better than simply a routing protocol between moving networks.

- The discussions about DNS need better motivation.

- I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements and latency bounds.=C2=A0 The inclusion of numbers like = 1 second, .5 second, and 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations.=C2=A0 Given some knowledge of DSRC range and typic= al speeds for motor vehicles, you should be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic.

- The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with cross references to other parts of the document.

- The "Changes" section should have detailed what was chan= ged, instead of just saying that resolutions were included for our comments.

- I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs.=C2=A0 I think this would be a bad idea.=C2=A0 Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET.

- In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless media.

- In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge into one network.=C2=A0 An example is needed for this.

- In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should be prevented by cooperation between good nodes.=C2=A0 But no suggestion is made about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or be compromised.=C2=A0 Similarly, = it is not suggested how to identify authorized vehicles.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 7/4/2019 = 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote:
=20
Charlie,
Thanks for your time.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC= =9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:10, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D= =B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul,


It's on my = list to read tomorrow.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jae= hoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM
To: Charlie Perkins
Cc: Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; Sri Gundavelli
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt
=C2=A0
Hi Charlie,
Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft?
=C2=A0
Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version or not.

I believe that I addresses all your previous comments=C2=A0
even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the problems for IPWAVE.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie revie= ws it to do my review.

Thanks!

Carlos

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,
Thanks a lot.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC= =A0=84 10:57, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com<= /a>>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul and all,


I will attempt to review the draft later this week.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jae= hoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM
To: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Cc: Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09= .txt
=C2=A0
Hi Carlos,
It seems Charlie is busy.
I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft.

Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-105 meeting?

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.p= aul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Sri,
Okay.
I will not change the text about ND.

Let's wait for Charlie's response.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) = =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:44, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgu= ndave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Hi Paul,

Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. Unfortunately, that=E2=80= =99s the most controversial topic and we don=E2=80=99t need to mu= ddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimize ND and lets leave it at that level.



Thanks
Sri



From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM
To: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>, "charles.perkins@earthlink.net" <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Cc: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking-09.txt

Hi Sri,
I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1.

Charl= ie,
Do you have any comments on the current version?

To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments.

Thank= s.

Best Regards,
Paul<= /div>

2019=EB=85= =84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D= =BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:09, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgundave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1= :
Hi Paul,

I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 versi= on and the delta from =E2=80=9308.=

The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. However, in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought the goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, =C2=A05.1.1.1?=C2= =A0


Sri





=C2=A0


From: its <its-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <<= a href=3D"mailto:jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank">jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM
To: Charlie Perkins <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" <skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" <its@ietf.org>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" <Tom.Oh@rit.edu>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt

Hi Charlie and Sri,
Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you are happy with the revision?


Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft.

If you have some places to improve, please let me know.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 5= =EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:29, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC= =84=B1:
= Hi IPWAVE WG,
I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft:
=C2=A0
According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on=C2=A0<= /div>
the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular networking,
such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy.

For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem statement about
the ND at 802.11-OCB.=C2=A0=
Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution in the draft.

Carlos,
Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward toward WGLC?

Thanks.

Paul

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 28
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2019-05-24

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0base= d vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ITS= ).=C2=A0 The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to-v= ehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infras= tructure (V2I), and vehicle-to-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ever= ything (V2X) communications.= =C2=A0 First, this document explains use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0case= s using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking.=C2=A0 Next, it makes a problem
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stat= ement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. =C2=A0 =C2=A0For = each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based
=C2=A0 =C2=A0vehi= cular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sati= sfying those requirements.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networ= king-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicu= lar-networking-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicula= r-networking-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
--
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors.


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:pauljeong@skku.edu" style=3D"font-size:12.8px" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.= D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan Univers= ity
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeon= g@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaeho= on-jeong.php
--000000000000f39826058d224943-- From nobody Sun Jul 7 22:45:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4215120115 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:45:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rXbrJ-eU0sp7 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99DEB1200D6 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id k20so32386026ios.10 for ; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 22:45:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3Tpn5rOlzJDER0ZyjOSX3zXTmu3yyaEzqhDtq2q/yw0=; b=J1wMDGrTa1w9a7SpaNcUj4NStejC9Rm5RqNUH04Zv62tsyUJYc5y+K7NPpCQwSToak oQEX94RvClqoGv5T2PLtM6yY4hZADfvVuf2ngGkYy7ye7ElAZTcQh+I6mB6MxWbKarxy PAwvdq3v4dDLvngsf91agoadOcXsOjUb8xKjhmb/dK1v93WnrPUWkemtNN7cHmw8aA6d uMK/CgOwxSW1go0q1lsBL6LQaTEP3GuRmipVX4QtUaprKssOmZklnDCLbmuhyrC9/378 pDGkcDvORNY4yK7CXoty/eyPyQLVXMmGxkd6rLFsaoYFTDjo0LaDOtOkU6+jVkvQ+lyF xdgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3Tpn5rOlzJDER0ZyjOSX3zXTmu3yyaEzqhDtq2q/yw0=; b=M/fDjLt0LaibKNMVZmiQn82c/VQAZ3IjPZSHb4nBvO74ajOFAqwLPmUKYDNH0feNvu etQNJY9+682qveykknU3N4gbwgnajJc0TG9k9UenB7MsvEpqAsnc/hOjNfm5LwLUhYh5 fXZx+mGsnhYzuNRijmhwNrPSXPoJRddsFZvmzzSmzWOzk2jq9Jny3zi/Ypc0Nm9f98Xq Nupj7JL3qmGz0HWfrPMhI69Y4uzWL8Ma9aYSatBsVhuJ5vmndzNaa2Mmq3OIdHSOO/TQ 7WR/KzQ6kccUf/lpGOQVfWBLapsnJlkQOKxCtp8Zh4y6f+UNZ9Lk0/1q/fj/RRc8cw4F oodg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUU2ighwFF6gtord3GPsXjuN6FYlFIw6m6clf6NTZ6UGUOYjndB 94vQYOO1SMwknJcCvc7N26kl9WdumMaKJEAyY9jn4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx/aDR5/WaQuF36DmZu+GXC/XVNpPpRCzGkFeacQ4dSvbqZz4ZYy2ptcEeU09AzA5b7SuCV2M2iH7rMo0+MNlU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:149:: with SMTP id y9mr4512775jao.76.1562564724333; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 22:45:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 06:45:13 +0100 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005531cc058d24f35d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 05:45:28 -0000 --0000000000005531cc058d24f35d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Joerg, I have submitted -48 which fixes all issues you mentioned in your review. Please have a look and let me know if this version is OK. Thank you. On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Nabil Benamar wrote: > Dear Joerg, > > I want to add more clarification to one of your comments > > >> sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of >> vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces)." >> further. >> > > The in-vehicle interface is the Ethernet interface of a Router situated in > the car. By default, a Router has many and different interfaces. This > Router (in the car) has an Ethernet interface (in-vehicle) and an > 802.11-OCB interface. That OCB interface has an antenna towards the > outside of the car. > > The subnet referred to by this text, is formed by the OCB interfaces (not > the Ethernet interfaces - 'in-vehicle') of the cars nearby. > The 'in-vehicle' interface can be Ethernet, Bluetooth or even WiFi (WiFi > onboard). > >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > > -- Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --0000000000005531cc058d24f35d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jo= erg,

I have submitted -48 whi= ch fixes all issues you=C2=A0mentioned in your review.=C2=A0
Please have a look and let me k= now if this version is OK.

Th= ank you.

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:<= br>
Dear Joerg,

= I want to add more clarification to one of your comments


sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces o= f
vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces)."= ; further.

The in-vehicle interface is the Eth= ernet interface of a Router situated in the car.=C2=A0 By default, a Router has many and = different interfaces.=C2=A0This Router (in the car) has an Ethernet interfa= ce (in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface.=C2=A0 That OCB interface has a= n antenna towards the outside of the car.

The subnet referred= to by this text, is formed by the OCB interfaces (not the Ethernet interfa= ces - 'in-vehicle') of the cars nearby.

The 'in-vehicle' inte= rface can be Ethernet, Bluetooth or even WiFi (WiFi onboard).=C2=A0<= /div>






--

Best Regards=

Nabil Benamar<= /div>
Associate Prof= essor
D= epartment of Computer Sciences
= School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco




--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


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mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id z28so5788938ljn.4; Sun, 07 Jul 2019 23:50:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=irFODESS0M23YTwgzCYMuepIqgF9Ou2LNRZEWdBpjqY=; b=RFJziPfIFkUPkGNZ45LCRxq8+n2JCPg+4+2f3AzhYh6ufiD2KeSoYMgle8wku6VUJp KZgqV2fNcTWfLZdoECgIptOjgq9fT6bzBLcX6diImJHJThhu3+XJT64GlbQ6rUMZ1jHx wpBDcQSk7Htb/fdCf3Uq4QsCwZmDrNr9xq7TRDvDHpkrPqc6Q1/dsDBfpss7bxrjLNGM Xp8sEHA/mx1bAEeWDPdbJX1AaZa5Vx1RaRkxigKmD/8//+TwpQpUdp6BdNvpJrO9tklx On/kIBb/VkJ6bIhABsVu8epKOp//WuN4AGaYHgDJmbHU3QS+x5tatCe5YForftCp+ICL sIYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=irFODESS0M23YTwgzCYMuepIqgF9Ou2LNRZEWdBpjqY=; b=aeE7tOFKZbQKj/2q2r5BqRwTngOZfYfJo8BPUfkNX+RsPeSgr+RnHf3CaAxz/eBT7u 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multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f1e5c058d25ddd7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-ie?= =?utf-8?q?tf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 06:50:55 -0000 --0000000000004f1e5c058d25ddd7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi =C3=89ric, Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Ok. I will update the section3 and correct the DAD reference in the next version. Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 7:40 AM Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Hello Nabil, > > > > Thank you for your prompt reply. > > > > May I suggest to make the text of section 3 clearer about the participant= s > IP-OBU and IP-RSU ? > > > > About DAD, the reference should rather be SLAAC RFC 4862 and there should > be more text in the document IMHO > > > > Hope this helps > > > > Regards > > > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > > > *From: *iesg on behalf of Nabil Benamar < > n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> > *Date: *Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 22:16 > *To: *Eric Vyncke > *Cc: *"draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org>, "its@ietf.org" < > its@ietf.org>, The IESG , Carlos Bernardos , > "ipwave-chairs@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: =C3=89ric Vyncke's No Objection on > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48: (with COMMENT) > > > > Dear =C3=89ric, > > > > I would like to sincerely thank you for your review. Much appreciated! > > > > Please see my answers in-line below. > > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 4:33 PM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thank you for the work put into this document. Interesting use case ;-) > > Beside the 3 COMMENTs below, I have a question: my understanding is that > this > is a P2P link, so, layer-3 multicast packets could easily be sent over > unicast > layer-2 IF the other peer is known with its layer-2 address which is > possibly > known when forming a OCB "association" (but I am not a WiFi person at all= ). > Just curious here ;-) > > > > Intersting comment. The thing is that there is no association process in > OCB. Though it belongs to the IEEE 802.11 familly, there are some > differences. > > As we said in the text: > > OCB (outside the context of a basic service set - BSS): is a mode of > > operation in which a STA is not a member of a BSS and does not > > utilize IEEE Std 802.11 authentication, association, or data > > confidentiality. > > > > > Regards, > > -=C3=A9ric > > =3D=3D COMMENTS =3D=3D > > -- Section 3 -- > > It is unclear whether a IP-OBU <-> IP-OBU is a use case of this document > (it is > mentionned in 4.6 though but it would help the reader to have it mentione= d > in > section 3). > > > > The link model is the following: STA --- 802.11-OCB --- STA. In > > vehicular networks, STAs can be IP-RSUs and/or IP-OBUs > > > -- Section 4.4 -- > > In the discussion of SLAAC, there should be a mention on the presence or > absence of Router Advertisement and if RA are used: - which entity sends > this > RA (probably IP-RSU), - does RA contain PIO ? - what are the > recommendation for > router lifetime (and PIO timers) ? > > > > I agree. We need to add a mention about who sends RAs > > > -- Missing -- > > Duplicate Address Detection is only mentioned in Appendix I and it is > unclear > whether optimistic DAD (even for LLA) should/must be used. > > In section 4.5.1, we say that : > > This document is scoped for Address Resolution (AR) and Duplicate > > Address Detection (DAD) per RFC 4861 > > > > Thanks again. > > > > -- > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --0000000000004f1e5c058d25ddd7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi =C3=89ric,

Thank you for your comments a= nd suggestions.

Ok.=C2=A0 I will update the section3 and correct the DAD reference in= the next version.
<= div dir=3D"ltr">


Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------= ------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88






On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 7:40 AM Eric Vyncke (e= vyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com> = wrote:

Hello Nabil,

=C2=A0

Thank you for your prompt reply.

=C2=A0

May I suggest to make the text of section 3 clearer = about the participants IP-OBU and IP-RSU ?

=C2=A0

About DAD, the reference should rather be SLAAC RFC = 4862 and there should be more text in the document IMHO

=C2=A0

Hope this helps

=C2=A0

Regards

=C2=A0

-=C3=A9ric

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>
Date: Sunday, 7 July 2019 at 22:16
To: Eric Vyncke <evyncke@cisco.com>
Cc: "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org&= quot; <draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org>, &q= uot;its@ietf.org"= ; <its@ietf.org>= ;, The IESG <iesg@iet= f.org>, Carlos Bernardos <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "ipwave-chairs@ietf.org" <ipwave-chairs@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: =C3=89ric Vyncke's No Objection on draft-ietf-ipwav= e-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48: (with COMMENT)

=C2=A0

Dear=C2=A0=C3=89ric,

=C2=A0

I would like to sincerely thank you for your review. Much=C2=A0= appreciated!

=C2=A0

Please see my answers in-line below.

=C2=A0

On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 4:= 33 PM =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

=C3=89ric Vyncke has ente= red the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-48: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwav= e-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you=C2=A0 for the work put into this document. Interesting use case ;= -)

Beside the 3 COMMENTs below, I have a question: my understanding is that th= is
is a P2P link, so, layer-3 multicast packets could easily be sent over unic= ast
layer-2 IF the other peer is known with its layer-2 address which is possib= ly
known when forming a OCB "association" (but I am not a WiFi perso= n at all).
Just curious here ;-)

=C2=A0

Intersting comment. The thing is that there is no association p= rocess in OCB. Though it belongs to the IEEE 802.11 familly, there are some= differences.

As we said in the text:

OCB (outside the context of a basic service set - BSS): is a mode of<=
/u>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 op=
eration in which a STA is not a member of a BSS and does not<=
/span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 ut=
ilize IEEE Std 802.11 authentication, association, or data=C2=A0<=
/u>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0confidentiality.

=C2=A0


Regards,

-=C3=A9ric

=3D=3D COMMENTS =3D=3D

-- Section 3 --

It is unclear whether a IP-OBU <-> IP-OBU is a use case of this docum= ent (it is
mentionned in 4.6 though but it would help the reader to have it mentioned = in
section 3).

=C2=A0

The link model is the following: STA --- 802.11-OCB --- STA.=C2=
=A0 In=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0vehicular networks, STAs can be IP-= RSUs and/or IP-OBUs=C2=A0


-- Section 4.4 --

In the discussion of SLAAC, there should be a mention on the presence or absence of Router Advertisement and if RA are used: - which entity sends th= is
RA (probably IP-RSU), - does RA contain PIO ? - what are the recommendation= for
router lifetime (and PIO timers) ?

=C2=A0

I agree. We need to add a mention about who sends RAs=


-- Missing --

Duplicate Address Detection is only mentioned in Appendix I and it is uncle= ar
whether optimistic DAD (even for LLA) should/must be used.

In sect= ion 4.5.1, we say that :

This document is scoped for Address Resolution (AR) and Duplicate=C2=A0<=
u>

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Address Detection (DAD) per RFC 4861=C2=A0


Thanks again.

=C2=A0

--


Best Regards <= /u>

=C2=A0

Nabil Benamar

Associate Professor

Department of Computer Sciences

School of Technology

Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0

Meknes. Morocco

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
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[84.199.207.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h10sm5728845eda.85.2019.07.08.07.55.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Jul 2019 07:55:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Alexandre Petrescu X-Google-Original-From: Alexandre Petrescu To: its@ietf.org References: <61452b20-9cd1-c9ce-1eb2-ebb090efb8c4@gmail.com> <936d2cd6-5381-8387-cd2d-e8b33cb5dd7a@gmail.com> <28085_1561479785_5D124A69_28085_17908_1_460b369c-3d22-34f1-3734-355bba40dff3@cea.fr> Message-ID: <8995c84e-7590-5e2e-bd94-c0588501a635@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:55:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Protocols and Architectures for Traffic Lights X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 14:55:51 -0000 The 'Tipo V' (read 'type V', like in Valencia) is a protocol used in Spain to communicate to traffic lights controllers. The spec number is UNE 135401-5 IN. It is standardised by Spaniard organisation AENOR; the spec is paying, but there is an excerpt available for free; one company, at least, implements it - ETRA. Le 03/07/2019 à 11:43, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > excuse me being at the risk of disturbing the group with my personal > notes; I promiss you I ponder maybe I will write a draft about this... > > In Scandinavian countries the protocol to communicate to traffic lights > controllers is RSMP with a spec on github. (provided by person at gov't > organisaiton through a doc called CEN/TC 278/WG 17 N 207). > > So the current list of protocols to communicate to traffic lights > controllers is: NTCIP (US), UTMC (UK), DIASER (FR), RSMP (Nordic), OCIT > (D), IVERA (NL), ISO PRESTO 22951. > > The SPAT/MAP/SRM/SSM are a whole different class of things. > > The translation between these two classes is what brings latency.  This > is what makes that the color of the light a human sees on smartphone or > dashboard can be different (even if just for a few moments) from the > color of the light seen on reality. > > Implementers of apps of 'virtual' such colors of traffic lights on > smartphones/dashboards are Dynniq, probably NeoGLS, and a colleague. > > Alex > > Le 25/06/2019 à 18:22, Alexandre PETRESCU a écrit : >> I got more enlightenment from a recognised expert. >> >> In France, in addition to DIASER there is also LCR protocol for >> Traffic Lights. >> >> In UK there is UTMC protocol. >> >> NTCIP is acknowledged as a protocol in USA.  Further, it may be >> implemented by Thales, a French company. >> >> -- >> Alexandre Petrescu >> alexandre.petrescu@cea.fr, tél 0169089223 >> >> Le 06/06/2019 à 17:18, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> >>> For further completeness... >>> >>> The Dutch version of protocols for Traffic Lights Controllers, in >>> addition to IVERA also include iVRI, on the web at >>> https://www.crow.nl/thema-s/verkeersmanagement/landelijke-ivri-standaarden >>> >>> >>> The German OCIT protocol is on the web at www.ocit.org >>> >>> I continue to wonder what is the protocol used for communicating with >>> Traffic Lights Controllers in Italy, and in America? >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Le 06/06/2019 à 05:13, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>> >>>> For completeness, >>>> >>>> >>>> The complete list of protocols to communication to Traffic Lights >>>> Controllers is: DIASER, IVERA, OCIT. >>>> >>>> Because I learn in Germany and the Czech Republic, the OCIT protocol >>>> (not DIASER) may be used for communication to Traffic Lights >>>> Controller, with some implementations from Siemens and from Cross. >>>> Not known whether OCIT works on IP, and on IPv6. >>>> >>>> DIASER is known to work on RS232, TCP and UDP.  Seen on IPv4; not >>>> known on IPv6.  SEA is a traffic lights controller manufacturer in >>>> France that produces some, implements DIASER too.  There are about >>>> 10 manufacturers in France (Aximum of Colas, Fareco of Fayat, >>>> Lacroix, SEA, others?), all doing DIASER. >>>> >>>> Basically, if one wants a car to talk to traffic lights controllers >>>> with low latenccy, one wants to put 3 protocols in that car. >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 29/01/2019 à 15:04, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>> >>>>>   Protocols and Architectures for Traffic Lights >>>>>               Januay 29th, 2019 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DIASER: a protocol used to communicate to Traffic Lights controllers. >>>>> Used in France.  Specified by AFNOR.  Closed and paying specification. >>>>> Works on hardware platforms from Lacroix (model Traffy) and Aximum >>>>> (model Maestro), and probably others.  Works on serial and on UDP/IP. >>>>> Example queries are: "DZ" to reset, "Ck" and "CJ" to query the current >>>>> color of lights, C# and CU to get the time spent in a color. >>>>> >>>>> API WIM 7101, RSGC2: proprietary API interfaces used by organisation >>>>> NEAVIA of organisation Lacroix in France; it is used to provide access >>>>> to data of traffic lights controllers.  It can be used with DIASER in >>>>> a sequence way: a gateway converts from one to another. >>>>> >>>>> ISO PRESTO 22951: a protocol to communicate with traffic lights >>>>> controller, to obtain priority for special vehicles. >>>>> >>>>> SPAT/SSM/SRM: protocols used by future traffic lights controllers; >>>>> specified by SAE in J2735.  The 2009 version is freely available, >>>>> whereas the 2016 (non retro-compatible) is paying 100 USD, >>>>> approximative.  SPAT is Signal Phase and Timing, whereas SRM is Signal >>>>> Request Message. >>>>> >>>>> SPAT-EM: an European version of SPAT, specified by ETSI, which >>>>> encapsulates SPAT.  Free access, but SPAT still paying (free >>>>> encapsulated paying). >>>>> >>>>> IVERA: a protocol used in Netherlands to communicate with Traffic >>>>> Lights controllers.  Potentially VLOG is also such a protocol. >>>>> >>>>> 3G Segnaletica: an organisation in Italy that provides hardware for >>>>> controllers for traffic  lights.  Also has models carried in 'mobile' >>>>> traffic lights.  It provides a Raspberry Pi to access the traffic >>>>> lights data.  The Raspberry Pi uses an API to access the controller >>>>> status.  That API uses HTTP. >>>>> >>>>> Siemens: is an organisation that probably provides hardware for >>>>> traffic lights controllers to be used in America (USA). >>>>> >>>>> Architectures: sketches drawing controller, tri-light bulbs, Internet, >>>>> 802.11-OCB, car, API, SPAT. >>>>> >>>>> Acknowledgements: Daniele Brevi, Bart Netten, Stephane Goeuriot, Sri >>>>> Gundavelli, Bruno Cabon, Paul Thorpe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> its mailing list >>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> its mailing list >>>> its@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Mon Jul 8 10:15:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5335E1202D8; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:14:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35KMUEljzONC; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out2.in.tum.de [131.159.0.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F6EF1203BE; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id 3331F1C0358; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:14:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ABFC41C0355; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:14:27 +0200 (CEST) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_vfoin@fff.in.tum.de) To: Nabil Benamar , Joerg Ott Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:14:26 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 17:15:00 -0000 Hi Nabil, are there any other pending updates or is this one final concerning all the LC reviews? Best, Jörg On 08.07.19 07:45, Nabil Benamar wrote: > Hi Joerg, > > I have submitted -48 which fixes all issues you mentioned in your review. > Please have a look and let me know if this version is OK. > > Thank you. > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Nabil Benamar > wrote: > > Dear Joerg, > > I want to add more clarification to one of your comments > > > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB > interfaces of > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle > interfaces)." further. > > > The in-vehicle interface is the Ethernet interface of a Router > situated in the car. By default, a Router has many and different > interfaces. This Router(in the car) has an Ethernet interface > (in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface.  That OCB interface has an > antenna towards the outside of the car. > > The subnet referred to by this text, is formed by the OCB interfaces > (not the Ethernet interfaces - 'in-vehicle') of the cars nearby. > > The 'in-vehicle' interface can be Ethernet, Bluetooth or even WiFi > (WiFi onboard). > > > > > > > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > From nobody Mon Jul 8 11:28:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35A41202B7 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:28:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XYgrH62iO8q1 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 417F61200B1 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id g20so16374466ioc.12 for ; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 11:28:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hctQb3BvFmsZasJmkCSqHO7nZImveIx7Bd78DGFJu90=; b=ka977qvf2WAzofnGNOpJtilZmo4/SZDi52FPUtFaDtOzM09uinRVf6uIg3e2B64dPS Qn+hcXvOZK0GFbcyd9KedhhrC5ILX6nfAG4EJdCd1N95s+o+iyW/WbTHutocZ55B+pfQ kY2iupDPZNMeEx3NA847KA6UUf0gJbbmpvXGolyYP9u3eXNV3vY6upI5EVEnUjanPL9W NS9PmyRKyoQY+SnnM6rdr81BqaRlBC1mI7jhCN70XTukZ1Syi/R0/96B69tjxSv2emKR CYwy0SOS3a8FsGYRh62o3uT99BBDPEY76tWuQba9mNxblaqnzk3BATK1t6AjHY3caHS9 lLnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hctQb3BvFmsZasJmkCSqHO7nZImveIx7Bd78DGFJu90=; b=LruR3K+Q9pOqkPEGM5yNmwRUQu4KeuCf9i/BEbfV0x/+fV9mVQnxOdnG4QuK0lc5u/ 5vr9fL7LrYYfngXa1gsCkNpaI5hTdVayirQH4WtLxfukljo7/So0GsR3zXSZOmx4JsTS 4DhbyYO4MBYx72qpP/wQ4ZydN+4uVuGMDOsvJQktcxyWXyDQwE1/elzclfA8eNua/mNT P8gs3xTc6S+dIpaDflRX5yFV8gCecs1c+NhluIDHiuN3rPQ2QlM4+G9MwBKQ/dBEHmA9 wDHBOblmp6Oql7h90F6xRKbKTto6Pp6IQEWFsSwNA7hlSEQ73Bn5In/1uEwV+2K2v9cL l4YQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWH7mol+md3Co50I9/nkqgeyvKSZM3VVTfrN1P30xlilVtEYMJi OMBQwHkrEC6tyKOa6X++vqwwUSm8ZRjmEB/TJTX7Qg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxgtmjwOoabC81p+Q/glyhk6CPR3C286wkfmMZZU8xiD/8Tn3IuI17nJXUBA2oiyLUCgz690wIUfWzQ6rIpE4Q= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9f07:: with SMTP id z7mr21995063jal.29.1562610514364; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 11:28:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:28:54 +0100 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: Joerg Ott , tsv-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1ad78058d2f9c6b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 18:28:37 -0000 --000000000000a1ad78058d2f9c6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joerg, Thank you for your email. I received some minor comments that I will reflect in a new version -49 to be posted tonight. On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 18:14 Joerg Ott wrote: > Hi Nabil, > > are there any other pending updates or is this one final concerning all > the LC reviews? > > Best, > J=C3=B6rg > > On 08.07.19 07:45, Nabil Benamar wrote: > > Hi Joerg, > > > > I have submitted -48 which fixes all issues you mentioned in your revie= w. > > Please have a look and let me know if this version is OK. > > > > Thank you. > > > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Nabil Benamar > > wrote: > > > > Dear Joerg, > > > > I want to add more clarification to one of your comments > > > > > > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB > > interfaces of > > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle > > interfaces)." further. > > > > > > The in-vehicle interface is the Ethernet interface of a Router > > situated in the car. By default, a Router has many and different > > interfaces. This Router(in the car) has an Ethernet interface > > (in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface. That OCB interface has a= n > > antenna towards the outside of the car. > > > > The subnet referred to by this text, is formed by the OCB interface= s > > (not the Ethernet interfaces - 'in-vehicle') of the cars nearby. > > > > The 'in-vehicle' interface can be Ethernet, Bluetooth or even WiFi > > (WiFi onboard). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > --000000000000a1ad78058d2f9c6b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=C2=A0Joerg,

Thank=C2=A0you for your email.=C2=A0

I received some minor comments that I will reflect in a new= version -49 to be posted tonight.







On Mon, Jul 8, 20= 19, 18:14 Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de&= gt; wrote:
Hi Nabil,

are there any other pending updates or is this one final concerning all
the LC reviews?

Best,
J=C3=B6rg

On 08.07.19 07:45, Nabil Benamar wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
>
> I have submitted -48 which fixes all issues you=C2=A0mentioned in your= review.
> Please have a look and let me know if this version is OK.
>
> Thank you.
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.u= mi.ac.ma
> <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear Joerg,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I want to add more clarification to one of your com= ments
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may = be formed over 802.11-OCB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vehicles that are in close range (not= by their in-vehicle
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces)." further.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The in-vehicle interface is the Ethernet interface = of a Router
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0situated in the car. By default, a Router has many = and different
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces. This Router(in the car) has an Ethernet= interface
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface.=C2=A0 Tha= t OCB interface has an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0antenna towards the outside of the car.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The subnet referred to by this text, is formed by t= he OCB interfaces
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(not the Ethernet interfaces - 'in-vehicle'= ) of the cars nearby.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The 'in-vehicle' interface can be Ethernet,= Bluetooth or even WiFi
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(WiFi onboard).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best Regards
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nabil Benamar
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Associate Professor
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Department of Computer Sciences
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0School of Technology
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Moulay Ismail University
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Meknes. Morocco
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
> Associate Professor
> Department of Computer Sciences
> School of Technology
> Moulay Ismail University
> Meknes. Morocco
>
>
--000000000000a1ad78058d2f9c6b-- From nobody Mon Jul 8 15:15:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E136120310; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:15:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: its@ietf.org Message-ID: <156262412659.908.11930587268648378982@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 15:15:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 22:15:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Basic Support for IPv6 over IEEE Std 802.11 Networks Operating Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set (IPv6-over-80211-OCB) Authors : Nabil Benamar Jerome Haerri Jong-Hyouk Lee Thierry Ernst Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2019-07-08 Abstract: This document provides methods and settings, and describes limitations, for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link. This support does only require minimal changes to existing stacks. Optimizations and usage of IPv6 over more complex scenarios is not covered in this specification and is subject of future work. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 8 16:58:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080E01203CF; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:58:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: its@ietf.org Message-ID: <156263028693.1051.10216162985074415735@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 16:58:07 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 23:58:15 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. Title : IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases Author : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor) Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2019-07-08 Abstract: This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP- based vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS). The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle- to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to- everything (V2X) communications. First, this document explains use cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking. Next, it makes a problem statement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. For each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based vehicular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions satisfying those requirements. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 8 17:13:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 730B712008F for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.407 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HK_NAME_FM_MR_MRS=1.499, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URI_HEX=0.1, URI_NOVOWEL=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDHaiT0MoRQ4 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63B581201D0 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id p17so7820582wrf.11 for ; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 17:12:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5Uc7hix5Af+q7Ah/GF1dM84E2OMQVqcLkkaGFvW8Bvg=; b=f/IRq3XcgU9DTknrITPKP9vVPNPt0aNRObIaazXlxM5qTtYfJZIi3oSeSy6gu8V6H5 NcUP1skAmcfyGpF51pRldcGnqsfBNY68k3Qyl4+EPFj7M4sHo+Jtpw90aa6B1sT5Lm2y 4h3XRVNhofYQiQLVCm/pULwLRHVEkTUjnmMJerNF+M15V7r/oPBYygcyfUsARCznee/T AmCnbeKckBW9VJ0fYUAVfF5WPKaMwtzILFp843o3WFGClrVZjw9GZmcWHVFSe3r2bqkT I+N+0gKR2idJ9/Gufo4HAwH3u9lkMX7cMFdoOHM+udQe5/L7denpu5jBT7DxeSIqjqfi +V+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5Uc7hix5Af+q7Ah/GF1dM84E2OMQVqcLkkaGFvW8Bvg=; b=eHtDEcJ9ZX2x5XGCuDMPOW+0ogWdbg+Bh/qB/ddUb5ITG3Cug284Y3ZCHUx8OEDTD9 TT0tWR/X1L0UgGpqJf1P3mdgpJf6bKG+QLQoIOScEsCs8aMksDzU0mhl76gRLqAojy2Y wXhMFfSRaDz1ki97aKdVG0UBkiMBs0DSRgksK2ankYs9NlfWmVZrrH1FUmA5F9oYg5iz VxqewwSPBnJ8R8bgxK7ygWxdPlLbVG6AvSCnLWwVfbhETbiujCV2WZNuXTdmjPLp6GAk BHWDuvKVW497DsTuhEJUSVjoy7xEfudraa0bKgXO3QplSwByPJGCOmSN18DZxXHUva/+ dm6g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXdIBctkSopaDCPtHmv6KnwJPk18v3Cad3dACqPcg2KK4pIQGsn hHdiA6yx9tyYn15tMzJSjrbjs/HfxwLxiaY0ghw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzw+1yR468F8wKNlzH80SeT2S9in+NEtoSj0fB48kk+s5CUoprXxG/vyYNOHp3SULwYI3/5b2drzI1Sef39ybU= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4a46:: with SMTP id v6mr20932081wrs.105.1562631176233; Mon, 08 Jul 2019 17:12:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155875810707.27384.10372786061867898561@ietfa.amsl.com> <62449a99-3289-555b-39ce-e56489f3b5a8@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <62449a99-3289-555b-39ce-e56489f3b5a8@earthlink.net> From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 09:12:18 +0900 Message-ID: To: Charlie Perkins Cc: "its@ietf.org" , skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com, "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0000000000002ccbb3058d346ce1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 00:13:03 -0000 --0000000000002ccbb3058d346ce1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002ccbb1058d346cdf" --0000000000002ccbb1058d346cdf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charlie, Here is the revision based on your major comments: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10 I attach the revision letter explaining how I answered your comments. If you have comments and questions on the revision, please let me know. Due to the time limitation, I could not address your editorial comments on -10 version. For your editorial comments, I will address them and submit -11 version before the IETF-105 IPWAVE session. Thanks. Best Regards, Paul On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM Charlie Perkins < charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote: > Hello Paul, > > I have reviewed the document. I think it still needs some improvements a= s > described below. > > - It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better > than simply a routing protocol between moving networks. > > - The discussions about DNS need better motivation. > > - I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements > and latency bounds. The inclusion of numbers like 1 second, .5 second, a= nd > 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations. Given some > knowledge of DSRC range and typical speeds for motor vehicles, you should > be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic. > > - The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with > cross references to other parts of the document. > > - The "Changes" section should have detailed what was changed, instead of > just saying that resolutions were included for our comments. > > - I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global > prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs. I think this would = be > a bad idea. Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET. > > - In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems= , > our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-bas= ed > protocols over wireless media. > > - In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge > into one network. An example is needed for this. > > - In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should > be prevented by cooperation between good nodes. But no suggestion is mad= e > about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the > likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or = be > compromised. Similarly, it is not suggested how to identify authorized > vehicles. > > Regards, > Charlie P. > > > On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote: > > Charlie, > Thanks for your time. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > 2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:10,= Charlie Perkins =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 > =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: > >> Hello Paul, >> >> >> It's on my list to read tomorrow. >> >> >> Regards, >> Charlie P. >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM >> *To:* Charlie Perkins >> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; Sri >> Gundavelli >> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Charlie, >> Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft? >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> >> Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version or >> not. >> >> I believe that I addresses all your previous comments >> even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the problem= s >> for IPWAVE. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >> cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote: >> >> I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie reviews it to do my review. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Carlos >> >> On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Charlie, >> Thanks a lot. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 10:5= 7, Charlie Perkins =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hello Paul and all, >> >> >> I will attempt to review the draft later this week. >> >> >> Regards, >> Charlie P. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >> *Sent:* Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM >> *To:* CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO >> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri >> Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong >> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Carlos, >> It seems Charlie is busy. >> I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft. >> >> Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-105 >> meeting? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:4= 9, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Sri, >> Okay. >> I will not change the text about ND. >> >> Let's wait for Charlie's response. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:4= 4, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can >> revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. >> Unfortunately, that=E2=80=99s the most controversial topic and we don=E2= =80=99t need to >> muddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimiz= e >> ND and lets leave it at that level. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> Sri >> >> >> >> From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" >> Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM >> To: Sri Gundavelli , "charles.perkins@earthlink.net" >> >> Cc: Russ Housley , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >> cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" < >> Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Sri, >> I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the >> revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1. >> >> Charlie, >> Do you have any comments on the current version? >> >> To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:0= 9, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hi Paul, >> >> I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 version and the delta from =E2=80=9308. >> >> The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of >> unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. Howeve= r, >> in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought = the >> goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, >> scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, 5.1.1.1= ? >> >> >> Sri >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: its on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >> Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM >> To: Charlie Perkins , Sri Gundavelli < >> sgundave@cisco.com> >> Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" < >> skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" < >> pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" , Russ Housley < >> housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" , CARLOS JESUS >> BERNARDOS CANO , "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> >> Hi Charlie and Sri, >> Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you ar= e >> happy with the revision? >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft. >> >> If you have some places to improve, please let me know. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 5=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:29= , Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >> Hi IPWAVE WG, >> I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> >> According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on >> the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular >> networking, >> such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. >> >> For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem >> statement about >> the ND at 802.11-OCB. >> Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution in >> the draft. >> >> Carlos, >> Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward >> toward WGLC? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Paul >> >> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM wrote: >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular >> Environments WG of the IETF. >> >> Title : IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments >> (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases >> Author : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor) >> Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >> Pages : 28 >> Date : 2019-05-24 >> >> Abstract: >> This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP- >> based vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems >> (ITS). The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle- >> to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to- >> everything (V2X) communications. First, this document explains use >> cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking. Next, it makes a problem >> statement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as >> IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. >> For each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based >> vehicular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions >> satisfying those requirements. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ >> >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networ= king-09 >> >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networki= ng-09 >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org >> >> . >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> >> >> >> -- >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Department of Software >> Sungkyunkwan University >> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >> >> >> -- >> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors. >> >> >> >> -- >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Department of Software >> Sungkyunkwan University >> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >> >> > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Software Sungkyunkwan University Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php --0000000000002ccbb1058d346cdf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Charlie,
Here is the revision based on your major c= omments:
=C2=A0
I attach the = revision letter explaining how I answered your comments.
If you h= ave comments and questions on the revision, please let me know.
<= br>
Due to the time limitation, I could not address your editoria= l comments on -10 version.
For your editorial comments, I will ad= dress them and submit -11 version=C2=A0
before the IETF-105 IPWAV= E session.

Thanks.

Best R= egards,
Paul


On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM = Charlie Perkins <charle= s.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hello Paul,

I have reviewed the document.=C2=A0 I think it still needs some improvements as described below.

- It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better than simply a routing protocol between moving networks.

- The discussions about DNS need better motivation.

- I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements and latency bounds.=C2=A0 The inclusion of numbers like = 1 second, .5 second, and 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations.=C2=A0 Given some knowledge of DSRC range and typic= al speeds for motor vehicles, you should be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic.

- The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with cross references to other parts of the document.

- The "Changes" section should have detailed what was chan= ged, instead of just saying that resolutions were included for our comments.

- I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs.=C2=A0 I think this would be a bad idea.=C2=A0 Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET.

- In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless media.

- In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge into one network.=C2=A0 An example is needed for this.

- In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should be prevented by cooperation between good nodes.=C2=A0 But no suggestion is made about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or be compromised.=C2=A0 Similarly, = it is not suggested how to identify authorized vehicles.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 7/4/2019 = 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote:
=20
Charlie,
Thanks for your time.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC= =9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:10, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D= =B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul,


It's on my = list to read tomorrow.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jae= hoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM
To: Charlie Perkins
Cc: Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; Sri Gundavelli
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt
=C2=A0
Hi Charlie,
Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft?
=C2=A0
Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version or not.

I believe that I addresses all your previous comments=C2=A0
even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the problems for IPWAVE.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie revie= ws it to do my review.

Thanks!

Carlos

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,
Thanks a lot.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC= =A0=84 10:57, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com<= /a>>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul and all,


I will attempt to review the draft later this week.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jae= hoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM
To: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Cc: Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09= .txt
=C2=A0
Hi Carlos,
It seems Charlie is busy.
I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft.

Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-105 meeting?

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.p= aul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Sri,
Okay.
I will not change the text about ND.

Let's wait for Charlie's response.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) = =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:44, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgu= ndave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Hi Paul,

Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. Unfortunately, that=E2=80= =99s the most controversial topic and we don=E2=80=99t need to mu= ddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimize ND and lets leave it at that level.



Thanks
Sri



From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM
To: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>, "charles.perkins@earthlink.net" <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Cc: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking-09.txt

Hi Sri,
I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1.

Charl= ie,
Do you have any comments on the current version?

To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments.

Thank= s.

Best Regards,
Paul<= /div>

2019=EB=85= =84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D= =BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:09, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgundave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1= :
Hi Paul,

I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 versi= on and the delta from =E2=80=9308.=

The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. However, in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought the goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, =C2=A05.1.1.1?=C2= =A0


Sri





=C2=A0


From: its <its-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <<= a href=3D"mailto:jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank">jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM
To: Charlie Perkins <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" <skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" <its@ietf.org>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" <Tom.Oh@rit.edu>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt

Hi Charlie and Sri,
Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you are happy with the revision?


Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft.

If you have some places to improve, please let me know.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 5= =EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:29, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC= =84=B1:
= Hi IPWAVE WG,
I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft:
=C2=A0
According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on=C2=A0<= /div>
the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular networking,
such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy.

For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem statement about
the ND at 802.11-OCB.=C2=A0=
Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution in the draft.

Carlos,
Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward toward WGLC?

Thanks.

Paul

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 28
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2019-05-24

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0base= d vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ITS= ).=C2=A0 The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to-v= ehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infras= tructure (V2I), and vehicle-to-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ever= ything (V2X) communications.= =C2=A0 First, this document explains use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0case= s using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking.=C2=A0 Next, it makes a problem
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stat= ement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. =C2=A0 =C2=A0For = each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based
=C2=A0 =C2=A0vehi= cular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sati= sfying those requirements.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networ= king-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicu= lar-networking-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicula= r-networking-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
--
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors.


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:pauljeong@skku.edu" style=3D"font-size:12.8px" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.= D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan Univers= ity
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeon= g@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaeho= on-jeong.php
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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ycRKH5wcRcZABMtBHWBMFDgJwwer3xj2wJRIpfrYNis=; b=zSJluaw3uolRBl5EG+udeNry9NhO88FmUNsW+wA2+2K0u4dBZAwTUMJYoYt2dOVRXz YD26D2PCvfJ3m3y1XzBBNpa6xq98nV2fYFzbnv7ctnnj3CrVS/sCqnKA0c91E7Wd5DHp DZmmrMjbFZjMr9qVLDzTN0hWNYvexqzqxtOuRDLHKrJu+P47JDIuMKWf/tjVIvYHp8zY 0XMol6Hp4l8G34QDUPn4DNsfK7Ea5SJaiBay4YNU7uQJrDpKwTbmPpvlAajzCyCOdAD7 k80dPnFRjC+PLZbU7M/kiqFHGo8Cgq4Re4o6R1TrBikwDQLubWziyhMv4TUAtMHd94CW lCvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ycRKH5wcRcZABMtBHWBMFDgJwwer3xj2wJRIpfrYNis=; b=NUSuSz/YV3Hzreoy/EcnC+3yWW769suMiGLurzFbshv1TBxe3sH6A3ZPDDkztEyMCO oNpX1zylknzsqrlO+ALn6/8DVEf2zBpb0idc94RE26c58j9y1rEYpAxkORnN3H05URrx WisKNAM5RnZDDT6eIzPWslO4vvOcChv9k39Km6zPspPXJ2wWcD3xcNOnniWrBrApiPPa eGCk2G2LfA8zD45A+CYnVQb138/W0rrMLiaYqG/yEQXFhR84TF18B6Yt7GmefmrWEOyX xtKYlrFmQgmYbRktt1tAswpUgKlYCn0OM9okUHZnUZ6QlM5LItrbomKubClP7pod/t0l ty9w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW+8mgEW72zqbqPSj8qPqtLKBmxKUAk/0vwgscIYXcTANUX7Dsv kKite+ImDShrqmiCFcM4rEno3/gJdD1+Y2+1Y2dgiQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqycyYtssZvvWAoNFcuv2yxYQq+z9N+TV7/q7/WM+IkJ3TKAzP2BCxszkZkH4vfKjAnWBbExfOvibdB1Vcq1urM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:22cc:: with SMTP id e12mr25165195ioe.192.1562665743286; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 02:49:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156165351682.21357.6959207590092474225@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 10:48:52 +0100 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: Joerg Ott , tsv-art@ietf.org, IETF Discussion , its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000881959058d3c7880" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-46 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 09:49:08 -0000 --000000000000881959058d3c7880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joerg, Just to let you know that I posted -49 yesterday. Your comments are welcome. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49 On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 6:14 PM Joerg Ott wrote: > Hi Nabil, > > are there any other pending updates or is this one final concerning all > the LC reviews? > > Best, > J=C3=B6rg > > On 08.07.19 07:45, Nabil Benamar wrote: > > Hi Joerg, > > > > I have submitted -48 which fixes all issues you mentioned in your revie= w. > > Please have a look and let me know if this version is OK. > > > > Thank you. > > > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Nabil Benamar > > wrote: > > > > Dear Joerg, > > > > I want to add more clarification to one of your comments > > > > > > sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB > > interfaces of > > vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle > > interfaces)." further. > > > > > > The in-vehicle interface is the Ethernet interface of a Router > > situated in the car. By default, a Router has many and different > > interfaces. This Router(in the car) has an Ethernet interface > > (in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface. That OCB interface has a= n > > antenna towards the outside of the car. > > > > The subnet referred to by this text, is formed by the OCB interface= s > > (not the Ethernet interfaces - 'in-vehicle') of the cars nearby. > > > > The 'in-vehicle' interface can be Ethernet, Bluetooth or even WiFi > > (WiFi onboard). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000881959058d3c7880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jo= erg,

Just to let you know tha= t I posted -49 yesterday.=C2=A0
Your comments are welcome.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-8= 0211ocb-49

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 6:14 PM Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de> wrote:
Hi Nabil,

are there any other pending updates or is this one final concerning all
the LC reviews?

Best,
J=C3=B6rg

On 08.07.19 07:45, Nabil Benamar wrote:
> Hi Joerg,
>
> I have submitted -48 which fixes all issues you=C2=A0mentioned in your= review.
> Please have a look and let me know if this version is OK.
>
> Thank you.
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma
> <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear Joerg,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I want to add more clarification to one of your com= ments
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sect 4.6: Clarify "A subnet may = be formed over 802.11-OCB
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vehicles that are in close range (not= by their in-vehicle
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces)." further.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The in-vehicle interface is the Ethernet interface = of a Router
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0situated in the car. By default, a Router has many = and different
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces. This Router(in the car) has an Ethernet= interface
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(in-vehicle) and an 802.11-OCB interface.=C2=A0 Tha= t OCB interface has an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0antenna towards the outside of the car.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The subnet referred to by this text, is formed by t= he OCB interfaces
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(not the Ethernet interfaces - 'in-vehicle'= ) of the cars nearby.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The 'in-vehicle' interface can be Ethernet,= Bluetooth or even WiFi
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(WiFi onboard).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best Regards
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nabil Benamar
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Associate Professor
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Department of Computer Sciences
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0School of Technology
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Moulay Ismail University
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Meknes. Morocco
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
> Associate Professor
> Department of Computer Sciences
> School of Technology
> Moulay Ismail University
> Meknes. Morocco
>
>


--
--000000000000881959058d3c7880-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 09:43:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87C81207B1; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 09:43:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 09:43:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 16:43:21 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in the TSV-ART review (Thanks Jörg!): sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority." I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the assumption here is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less important than other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document and should therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would need to be spelled out). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was somehow deemed as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into the appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this document as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as they seem to have received less review and therefore have more nits. nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A future improvement/ From nobody Tue Jul 9 13:04:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCEC1120AD7; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 13:03:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 20:03:50 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5): (1) Section 5. Per “A previous work at SAVI WG identifies some threats [RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.”, a few questions: ** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern? Which mitigations for them are being proposed? ** Why mention SeND if it is “complex and not deployed”? (2) Section 5. Per “More IETF protocols are available in the toolbox of the IP security protocol designer. Some ETSI protocols related to security protocols in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].”: ** Are there specific protocols to mention here? Would they be different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of the section -- “Any security mechanism as the IP layer or above that may be carried out …”? ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from [ETSI-sec-archi]? (3) Section 5.2. Per “An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other documents”, what other documents? (4) Section 5.3 I’m having trouble following this section – is this a discussion of a threat or mitigation? The references to Section 4.4 and 5.0 didn’t clarity this for me. ** What is meant by the drivers’ identity in this case? What is the pseudonym scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being set for it? ** What are the specific challenges of concern around pseudo-anonymization approaches to which an allusion is made? ** Who is the trusted third parted needed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (5) Section 1. Per “The resulting stack inherits from IPv6 over Ethernet [RFC2462], but operates over …”, what exactly is being inherited? What does “inherited” mean in this case? (6) Section 4.3. Per “Among these types of addresses only the IPv6 link-local addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during transition time”, the meaning of the “in particular during transition time isn’t clear to me. (7) Section 5. Per “The OCB operation is stripped off of …”, is this sentence saying that OCB operations doesn’t use 802.11 link layer security mechanisms, or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link layer security mechanisms? I’m getting caught up in the use of “stripped off”. (8) Section 5, Per “Any attacker can therefore just sit in the near range of vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically break any wall”, I’d recommend revising this sentence to reflect that it isn’t just vehicles and that active attacks are possible: NEW: Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within range of a vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card’s frequency to the proper range). (9) Section 5. What is “protected 802.11” mentioned in “Such a link is less protected …”? (10) Section 5.2. SHA256 needs a reference. (11) Editorial Nits ** Table of Contents. There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C ** Section 1. Typo. s/Appendicies/Appendices/ ** Section 1. Typo. s/Concretly/Concretely/ ** Section 1. Editorial. s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and [RFC2464]./ ** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference. s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/ ** Section 4.5. Typo. s/.A A future/. A future/ ** Section 4.6. Typo. s/links; The/links. The/ ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/Futhermore/Furthermore/ ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/pricavy/privacy/ ** Section 5.2. Typo. s/admninistered/ administered/ ** Appendix B. s/Ammendment/Amendment/ ** Appendix H. Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/ ** Appendix I. Typo. s/specificed/specified/ ** Appendix I. Typo. s/Moreoever/Moreover/ From nobody Tue Jul 9 14:29:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472AD1200C7 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:29:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evZOiOjECOOy for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91C1C12007A for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id j6so167223ioa.5 for ; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:29:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kf23PktpM+j+UKvGz4VWTpHmBlbnp0f577wGGq8w4Gw=; b=UoIAlYWUNPxn3le/MOH22MeQ08yqlhWSDckOWS9VF2Tln05TfXWEpo200JVxawEtdN ze4tQrSxsOBNrCZd3gZRuCC/eD1ptRRp8GO9mk/NkKQ+Bkqjp+CxXNdpfsXAquG1/3fz YjxVkTBs6jdYGt0AHTvn1f2i1BAX9l1zJvpgiLuj6q/pQKEPHjqD8ZzZwtotbZX969MX xYGQtO6ykfXi18p0C5nXJFb/ZfG9JZmXH8dwd/3fKrsYxt4Uzy+Of/syMI/GP1vhsUJV 5rpc2GeCiVqkyiI6XqPtszW9aveYUQUo3gzZsMinIZDFBMqdd+3pCU7kU21Q+v9WfT8I hLLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kf23PktpM+j+UKvGz4VWTpHmBlbnp0f577wGGq8w4Gw=; b=tNVJ34vjhaImOuN7WfGlJJPDAOv/IIOvQRA0XGJEGQEIHBIT5dWV2ChfIZYAJjNUuc QGI7Nyuubt97LqmjuRj5i0GjpBWu6AR4ztj/E+/+4mwZV6u0ivH+C7xOeMcE7evF4EXJ S0O0z+qd47ndy7DlYPY0bpYFVd/p5LD0xc4tS459PcxciG2f6LKdXicPlPyECUMLtgr1 q+cYjTsk77U2i9ODgYLl1ym5qIosFSDgW1oMafW51+HhV+CklVG0jOJmI9rPRESpik02 LJhetE+2rzunZ+QjR4kWsttPCPLAxcqA/QyLPgImAIfdcLeAYbtEOYV32311EGyDrxWi ZLDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUApTi6yEpHeLL2qTBYfI8WImhOYByQ6nLU70NuQlwrcFwOOgB+ MLhVtieiNtbt2ahQl3qrALIQe5mZAGEm6JQsfGbMZg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwhZEptdLKwQ75Tme6oIxDqCShc29XBur7Sf0XUt1bLzUcUe+9wQydfM8z7g1768JoZX8GwWKQHb2nClRdIf9o= X-Received: by 2002:a02:6d24:: with SMTP id m36mr30791294jac.87.1562707785567; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:29:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 22:29:34 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000726aed058d464262" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 21:29:52 -0000 --000000000000726aed058d464262 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mirja, Thank you for your review and comments. You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. Here is what we got from them: . *Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2)*, and leave the intern= al details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specification. User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be *4 bits* in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change. Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of 802.11=E2=80= =99s internal operation, while describing specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, the following text: =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in the Fr= ame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D *could be replaced by:* =E2=80=9C*The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80=98priori= ty=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user pri= ority*.=E2=80=9D Thanks again. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in the > TSV-ART > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > 'Background' user priority." > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the assumption > here > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less important th= an > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document and > should > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would need > to be > spelled out). > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was somehow > deemed > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into the > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this > document > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as they > seem to > have received less review and therefore have more nits. > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A futur= e > improvement/ > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000726aed058d464262 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=C2= =A0Mirja,

Thank you for your = review and comments.

You rais= ed a very important point that was discussed extensively on the ML and then= we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us = with a review to help us clarify this point.

Here is what we got from them:

.=C2=A0 Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2= =80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specification.

User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a binary value), a= nd the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification.=C2=A0 For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 bits in the header.=C2=A0 The use of these 4 bits to carry the = User Priority information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.=C2=A0

Suggest using term= inology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.=C2=A0 This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of 802.11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while d= escribing specifically the behavior required by the user.=C2=A0 For example, the following text:

=E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. = 'QoS Data'); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS = Control field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.=C2=A0 User Prior= ity 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D=C2=A0

could be replaced by:<= /p>

=E2= =80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies t= he use of QoS with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0


Thanks again.


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker <= ;noreply@ietf.org= > wrote:
Mirj= a K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in the TSV-A= RT
review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):

sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0'Background' user priority."
I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the assumptio= n here
is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less impo= rtant than
other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document and sh= ould
therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would need t= o be
spelled out).


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was somehow de= emed
as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into the
appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this docume= nt
as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as they see= m to
have received less review and therefore have more nits.

nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A=C2=A0 A future improvement/in OCB mode. A fu= ture
improvement/




--

Best Regards=

Nabil Benamar<= /div>
Associate Prof= essor
D= epartment of Computer Sciences
= School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000726aed058d464262-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 15:09:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2322A120141 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.453 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.453 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iCJib-_1sd-u for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84443120058 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id d24so11981859ljg.8 for ; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 15:08:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=T3LPlve2uB2E6OGVl63gvlXIsosGmVHkYa4K4lHefiI=; b=HlEVQb1dnZe4TtdvZEE68W3uMKClCvnIVDVYwIO9IKOnmsr0UDM8v2+ox4/JREiKAr b5kwSmLijIYTAlYW0PvNyc8NZC6Ndn/ZchqpZe0qz4Jx1c1RPt+kMrmBrxkGOzH93W/W hkD68Xi4tK/i58XNycBhpKazH9fqYhHZbkHFL4AqeVjyU3tUNGOhA42MCv9Fv1onQ+Ql eW1xEKAc6krgPLTeQW487aZuJZO8tVi0Z3phSQB7m6XZ7fnKvIsie7SbrKakAWUhMrDX geNb/xmfwDYGHVVvfuT6fbKSNUpGm//SpvfiYTyuKhCKOV9FbPOkcyZgo+xztHIJRSgX SOWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=T3LPlve2uB2E6OGVl63gvlXIsosGmVHkYa4K4lHefiI=; b=XxUfIb1/lMbYlTjLcUO+XwteZu3EjMRFVMayDwA/qIseAV9KwRVRkxzRQET2Wj+wXz ERdeb9o2zvV7sR22muHohnx0sTKnJvJhtZQ4pd3Bzuw9fx7y4ITfs4D5XPHR5fG7WbNl rrT6xPmS1bXcjp6bIRAHtUexyYYwUffW1Vt+PI2KWzh9VEvFGf2gMyJ/ACeqNv6POVH6 ov3UHbmDdb4P36t5w8UgQh9YdnswswvkeJ8YXyBAWrSlsvooLTVLq5+Zyq1fCgtD8ooo 2Bd64HNPxdSRRnJIR3kaLCpASU4jK9bEfxeQpdWmhXqGDFomcK+FRhppiW5B3kuinaNn VLrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVNYvAeARyJvzE9lzHZoT2jCu+d1N7iZDuhvO4dPDIB07fAhm6U y26hatwTTSQFDEFr6CKp/dtksugabYWsxnhNcIx6CuwiDcA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyLAMtY4uLOVoRBCesY4QoVzyzCMBVyNgPKJ8Uq7yN5uRfcXvJGmJKlgXaCLlpR5AmjOpseWG0pjgluLy9TtU4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:150:: with SMTP id c16mr2267266ljd.193.1562710137206; Tue, 09 Jul 2019 15:08:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nabil Benamar Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:08:46 +0100 Message-ID: To: "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009d7959058d46cead" Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Security review X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 22:09:01 -0000 --0000000000009d7959058d46cead Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi IPwavers, As you may have noticed, our draft is now in the ballot process. We got the following 'Discuss' comments: The AD (Roman Danyliw) is asking A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5): (1) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies some threats [RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80= =9D, a few questions: ** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern? Which mitigations for them are being proposed? ** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and not deployed=E2=80=9D? This sentence has been added during the initial review process befor the IESG stage. I just propose to remove it. Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 --0000000000009d7959058d46cead Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi IPwavers,

As you may have noticed, our draft is now in the ball= ot process.

We got the following 'Discuss' comments:

The AD (Roman Danyliw)=C2=A0 is asking

A few items per the text in the Security Cons=
iderations (Section 5):

(1) Section 5.  Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies some thr=
eats [RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a soluti=
on against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80=9D, a fe=
w questions:

** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern?  Which mitigations fo=
r them are being proposed?

** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and not deployed=E2=80=9D?


This sentence has been added du=
ring the initial review process befor the IESG stage. I just propose to rem=
ove it.


Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86= =D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88




--0000000000009d7959058d46cead-- From nobody Tue Jul 9 23:44:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA51120657; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:44:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AOgqwM2XtXWR; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4585F120354; Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A6iFGf017088; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:44:15 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D3772013A5; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:44:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17533201158; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:44:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.28] ([132.166.86.28]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A6iEkA028997; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:44:14 +0200 To: Roman Danyliw , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, ipwave-chairs@ietf.org References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <77245d77-23e2-0195-618b-792b8f0726c8@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:44:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:44:43 -0000 Le 09/07/2019 à 22:03, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker a écrit : [...] > (3) Section 5.2. Per “An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other > documents”, what other documents? The idea was to get tract for a variable length IID document in 6MAN WG. One indiviual submission is draft-petrescu-6man-ll-prefix-len-21. However, the 6MAN WG tells that topic is closed and I am indicated to refrain from new discussions on that topic in that WG. As such, there is presumably no other document to refer to. I will not say anything related to 64. It is not up to me to say something I do not believe in, and which is a barrier to deployment. [...] > (5) Section 1. Per “The resulting stack inherits from IPv6 over Ethernet > [RFC2462], but operates over …”, what exactly is being inherited? What does > “inherited” mean in this case? For example, the resulting stack uses Ethernet II headers. The use of Ethernet II headers on 802.11 media is inherited from RFC2464 (not RFC2462). It is not the 'inheritance' of OO programming. It is inheritance like in legacy. > (6) Section 4.3. Per “Among these types of addresses only the IPv6 link-local > addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during > transition time”, the meaning of the “in particular during transition time > isn’t clear to me. The implemenntations of IPv6-over-OCB run on linux only, in particular in earlier versions of kernel because they are embedded platforms; embedded platforms are not up to date with kernel versions, like desktop linuces are. The more privacy respecting IIDs RFCs are present and implemented in more recent linux dekstop versions, and in BSD. BSD does not implemenet IP-over-OCB. I suspect gradually these privacy IIDs will move to linux and embedded, but it will take time. That transition time I estimate at 5 years before we see privacy IIDs in common embedded systems in cars. Until then they use oui.txt MAC-based LL addresses with the usual privacy issues. (I am saying oui.txt because that's the public registry which makes them vulnerable; there are also MAC addresses that are less vulnerable because more randomized, like in Windows). > > (7) Section 5. Per “The OCB operation is stripped off of …”, is this sentence > saying that OCB operations doesn’t use 802.11 link layer security mechanisms, > or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link layer > security mechanisms? I’m getting caught up in the use of “stripped off”. The 802.11 security features are absent in OCB mode. Maybe 'stripped' and 'off' combination is not the right term. Alex [...] From nobody Wed Jul 10 00:32:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C565120122; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LwqlywkTSq_o; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7FFA120115; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A7Woh8167082; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:32:50 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 247A2200CA6; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:32:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0BA20709A; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:32:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.28] ([132.166.86.28]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A7WnK3029648; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:32:49 +0200 To: Nabil Benamar , =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, The IESG , Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <92fc87cd-abea-2eaf-0b49-375977973049@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:32:49 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:32:57 -0000 Le 09/07/2019 à 23:29, Nabil Benamar a écrit : > Hi Mirja, > > Thank you for your review and comments. > > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on the > ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) > to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. > > Here is what we got from them: > > . *Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with “User > Priority” of Background (numerically 1 or 2)*, and leave the internal > details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specification. > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a binary > value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is > another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For > example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be *4 > bits* in the header.  The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority > information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially > subject to change. > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 > Clause 5.2.  This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of > 802.11’s internal operation, while describing specifically the behavior > required by the user. For example, the following text: > > “In the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in the Frame > Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value of the > Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the > 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.  User Priority > 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').” On my side I do not agree with it. Only the expensive non open source implementations implement 802.11 QoS Data headers, including the QoS fields you suggest (background user priority). The cheap open source implementations, including the ones during HAckathon, do not exhibit QoS headers in wireshark packet dumps in monitor mode. I think I will have to write another draft called IPv6-over-OCB-without QoS : that is what is implemented in open source and cheap implementations. There is however interoperability: an RA sent by an IP-RSU with QoS header is understood well by an IP-OBU who does not understand QoS headers; vice-versa as well. The fact that QoS headers are there in the specificatioin of IP over OCB comes from implementers that do not share the code publicly. It is for implementations that are much more expensive and that try to suggest a higher quality is present. However, I strongly doubt the quality improvements. Quality here comes from many people doing something and the best to be elected naturally; it does not come from commercial interest. Alex > > _could be replaced by:_ > > “*The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a ‘priority’ value of > 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a “Background” user priority*.” > > > Thanks again. > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja Kühlewind via Datatracker > > wrote: > > Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in > the TSV-ART > review (Thanks Jörg!): > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >    'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >    'Background' user priority." > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the > assumption here > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less > important than > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document > and should > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would > need to be > spelled out). > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was > somehow deemed > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into the > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this > document > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as > they seem to > have received less review and therefore have more nits. > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A  A future improvement/in OCB mode. A > future > improvement/ > > > > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Wed Jul 10 00:44:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81CB12017D; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:44:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vV5Yb76aHElm; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48D20120154; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.192.10.3] (helo=[10.149.0.24]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hl7Gz-0007CZ-KC; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:44:17 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:44:16 +0200 Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Nabil Benamar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562744663;9d2f19a7; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hl7Gz-0007CZ-KC Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:44:27 -0000 Hi Nabil, I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you = _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that = is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you = further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? Mirja > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > Thank you for your review and comments. >=20 > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on = the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy = Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. >=20 > Here is what we got from them: >=20 > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2=80=9CUs= er Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the = internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 = specification. >=20 > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a binary = value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is = another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For = example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 = bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority = information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially = subject to change.=20 >=20 > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 = Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of = 802.11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the = behavior required by the user. For example, the following text: >=20 > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in = the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value of = the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the = 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority = 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D=20 >=20 > could be replaced by: >=20 >=20 > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks again. >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker = wrote: > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in the = TSV-ART > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >=20 > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > 'Background' user priority." > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the = assumption here > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less important = than > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document = and should > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would = need to be > spelled out). >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was = somehow deemed > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into = the > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this = document > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as = they seem to > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >=20 > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A = future > improvement/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best Regards >=20 > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University=20 > Meknes. Morocco >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 10 01:28:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFA512011F; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:28:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rPQfB3r0tlxq; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC43D1200D6; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id b29so993540lfq.1; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:28:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LTpFZQgeRaDz2lPDWclzWGUdZgTJpDTLkcJsZMS6eW8=; b=UStA7558wG+L09C08hPDHrj/rzfIamuQqaxPUPQBBdXTUYhgGCzvOmfxfG+SklE+79 I8yaCyFDf5GmM03wh+b/u28X74G9EqCHdGuySiJ0FXeRLnms2dykTKCjQdkBjA3FmEnr wXbM7YdszjKhGWCA8NWCbLXZRAT4uFQI5jnatewO+F9g1tlxQF4IQN2uSQW+R20rmc0r pqaKNF3/rixbpgTheQvhEo8gPFSBN31+VEkflwYoNXneH84e3HOZUyp7gk7FSknY1dUH 7HR6tXfJ8laoADXi6s1VVqKOBNsdkirdaj+wHgex6ic1sT+Hi8altES+8P7TI9Bcm//I pZjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LTpFZQgeRaDz2lPDWclzWGUdZgTJpDTLkcJsZMS6eW8=; b=pEvEZAfU47QqPM9SeKpTjprUJmg3MQU343u308d1xjGvbebzZ2spJZyx/sMste+bMK EKGMK/fScTgvJj2WmoK1VnTMkdeGpI9NhdCAHkOA4cmSMklzjX/vtl/Y6ukM/JiTMUFe Eo9hqWJkC6PjyO2FhNftHzTHdCnBJoT76cWAL31vDePTfEr3wg+oSW65SJ/09QRlPY8b YuKOtgqz1flrgMJkakRxfTFZM12QEPgBwyIa92KTdpm8yjgi3FuJAb18oWxfj2974DoM 726cv7iH+YGtNZ8TcfknowV44UQ4rlHXDf1KCsoKYMEm9dmvczKTkWTdsyOR5Xg4q0pr GoeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVW/4tH7F7a6dMFoGHVPNbdWxglf2ces+Xpz0TqJldCCIeelGdU Wjlf+r3364Yv16oB1emvO85sTQFLHOTMXOQDsASgCUTpn9g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwCmRAcRQXZvsw24sjT/p0D4sjcpVPYPvGheWO6R46RoO9iTSKb24fP+F+0QF5JeN2uxmkY6UjmoMm7Dk2/nOg= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4c37:: with SMTP id u23mr13695666lfq.119.1562747332522; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:28:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:28:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: "its@ietf.org" , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0f545058d4f77a0" Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:28:57 -0000 --000000000000a0f545058d4f77a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi IPwavers, The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind ) is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 --000000000000a0f545058d4f77a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi IPwavers,

The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind) is asking why we MUST in the following = sentence:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
= 
The mapping t=
o the 802.11 data service MUST use a
   'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0'= ;Background' user priority.


=
Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A= =D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88






=
--000000000000a0f545058d4f77a0-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 01:33:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02EDA120169; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:33:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.453 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.453 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gIUkzvtJyAss; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7925F1200D6; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id b17so980141lff.7; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:33:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5RJlYyQTfOlzQU39Q1nGe9z9yXG7ISpelwgXXGIIjLM=; b=CljFFc/wgdXjhQJzoJGk8yD5hQ251NA5h1IctEmV2APtgJKYucp53tq+q6YiWY+DrL j/BZNBjweUvaQv1vmgYHQLEhF2KThjaCBPkEs3QN2T78/JuX/eJ9vqNrgxG86Cas8Zhv 24NnVF84+VFBJx1EEp2NyrVcZ23fbhX9xmWcFe0CdonSJN5diaYbIEehgzRgfbYFXmxc 4eI0utAyerj4tWUpD3fHLIL6RujAj1ueH4NmTFL9GpWAS3jzQs+X7LZlzpAK0Gw6iJxq 9D5s7SBCv/z+1gg77tF2iH2syotbbF12ghRfPLwhea7ILtzZYByCoPPguiZTEzFeDIV+ DzrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5RJlYyQTfOlzQU39Q1nGe9z9yXG7ISpelwgXXGIIjLM=; b=V9wNT9BqzUtVAs+FNjhplYk1YVIc4PZZYzHY+MUznLcMJxzk71BFuBOmuv5LBtUQ5L ymiZsX/7s+qXHm7+TYjBvdbxChEsQdGS67wTIhPkK4fkT3nxHae7K8ukSUZ8djOV9q3a +tW1DE4o2iyi12v9Kvjm0k4llU2aasxa6l2m8uOff1gwb18StsiRroezhTTSN/QkInBG FzflyA/fIZIB2EeToqlh7c712lMvs/j2JuHZPW6dHeN72j2jfzYRoP3RuXwbcZ81rcwD wbTOJal6Vizq6z0qi7q5DJPU2efJxT83UjSjWOGIGm+ifeI8ru+ljyI5IYlLdSUfSB9p Bj4g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWY3n6+HZ2VpkmrrnEJ2lGOrUupBiWtVLbc59gSui/SqQ9dioQo BT/4ymxF1+TYxqriwGXRT3hIZgj22wqajnIXk7+WIxS1OBc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz8wIehqi8SP4uPq59qbkZ2Qarim1nXFNOmfB+mdJ2lP80BwWqu7GQ7uqx1ZqPw1TnCPp+Nelmmkpk4GjYfvBg= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4c37:: with SMTP id u23mr13706518lfq.119.1562747590383; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:33:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:32:58 +0100 Message-ID: To: "its@ietf.org" , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ff9c9f058d4f86ac" Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] removing ETSI related text in the draft X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:33:14 -0000 --000000000000ff9c9f058d4f86ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi IPwavers, I'm suggesting to remove the ETSI text in the draft. (2) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the toolb= ox of the IP security protocol designer. Some ETSI protocols related to security protocols in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D: ** Are there specific protocols to mention here? Would they be different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of the section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above tha= t may be carried out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from [ETSI-sec-archi]= ? Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 --000000000000ff9c9f058d4f86ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi IPwavers,

I'm suggesting to remove t= he ETSI text in the draft.

(2) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=
=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the toolbox of the IP security prot=
ocol designer.=C2=A0 Some ETSI protocols related to security protocols in I=
TS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D:
<= pre style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:10pt;fo= nt-family:"Courier New";color:rgb(80,0,80)">=C2=A0
** Are there specific protocols to mention here?=C2=A0 Would they be=
 different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of the=
 section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above that m=
ay be carried out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
** What specific ET=
SI protocols are being recommended from [ETSI-sec-archi]?
=


=
Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A= =D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88





<= /div>
--000000000000ff9c9f058d4f86ac-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 01:53:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A8E120116; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:53:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X3g5VoxfGV9k; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.eurecom.fr (smtp.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D8F1200EB; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 01:53:46 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.63,474,1557180000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="10551631" Received: from monza.eurecom.fr ([192.168.106.15]) by drago1i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2019 10:53:45 +0200 Received: from xerus29 (xerus29.eurecom.fr [172.17.31.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by monza.eurecom.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F24D53DBD; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:53:44 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= To: "'Nabil Benamar'" , , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:53:44 +0200 Organization: EURECOM Message-ID: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01D5370D.BEA5FF30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQDzkJgKNEPmg5lJGQDY6MEPZi+KlqiG00yQ Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:53:52 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01D5370D.BEA5FF30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nabil, =20 Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on where = the OCB is being used.=20 =20 If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by = CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic = (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)=E2=80=A6 =20 Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is = being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the = devil=E2=80=99s advocate), we might not need to indicate anything = here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the right level to do such = priorization=E2=80=A6 =20 Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is = =E2=80=98currently=E2=80=99 banned on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, = as it does not support the security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty = cycle enforcement guaranties (in the form of a congestion = control/traffic shaping, also natively done via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is = forced to used it...You can use IP, but it is wrapped up in a Geonet = packet. In other bands (in particular the ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the = ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if = I remember well, IP is also banded on the BSM band. =20 =20 I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that pure = IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does = not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And if = IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security = framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such low = priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent = safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly = Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also does = not make sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. =20 The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the = priority being 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst = priority on a IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right = place to do so. It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the = mapping between TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and = this regardless of the band or protocol stack.. =20 Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this? BR, =20 J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me =20 From: its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nabil Benamar Sent: Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 To: its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority =20 Hi IPwavers, =20 The AD ( = Mirja K=C3=BChlewind) is asking why we MUST in = the following sentence: =20 The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a=20 'Background' user priority. =20 =20 Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01D5370D.BEA5FF30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Nabil,

 

Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on = where the OCB is being used.

 

If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used = by CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic = (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly = unlikely)=E2=80=A6

 

Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic = is being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the = devil=E2=80=99s advocate), we might not need to indicate anything = here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the right level to do such = priorization=E2=80=A6

 

Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is = =E2=80=98currently=E2=80=99 banned on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, = as it does not support the security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty = cycle enforcement guaranties (in the form of a congestion = control/traffic shaping, also natively done via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is = forced to used it...You can use IP, but it is wrapped up in a Geonet = packet. =C2=A0In other bands (in particular the ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the = ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if = I remember well, IP is also banded on the BSM band. = =C2=A0

 

I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that = pure IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision = does not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). = And if IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent = security framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce = such low priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits = urgent safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly = Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also does not make sense (a hard coded = solution is not good in this case)..

 

The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the = priority being 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst = priority on a IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right = place to do so. It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the = mapping between TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and = this regardless of the band or protocol stack..

 

Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on = this?


BR,

 

J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me

 

From:= = its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Nabil = Benamar
Sent: Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29
To: = its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [ipwave] about = the 'MUST' in priority

 

Hi = IPwavers,

 

The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind) is asking = why we MUST in the following = sentence:

<= div>

 

The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use =
a
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with =
a 

&= nbsp;  'Background' user priority.

 

 

Best regards

Nabil Benamar

-------------------

=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 = =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88

 

 

 



<= /div>
------=_NextPart_000_0062_01D5370D.BEA5FF30-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 02:07:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9620E12011A for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:07:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id do-xK1W2cxPm for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A83F5120119 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A97WAU010901 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:07:32 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id AA2252080E5 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:07:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08AC20706A for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:07:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.28] ([132.166.86.28]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A97W8m002004 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:07:32 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <5947d88d-0893-cde0-6d61-02fb74a86460@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:07:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:07:40 -0000 Le 10/07/2019 à 10:53, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > Hi Nabil, > > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on where > the OCB is being used. > > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)… Why IP traffic MUST be lower? I do not agree with that. We send IP traffic on a distinct channel; we even send it on same channel as non-IP CAM messages: they live together well. They are distinguished by EtherType. Again - why IP must be lower? Alex > > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM…, playing the devil’s advocate), we > might not need to indicate anything here…say: L3 is not the right level > to do such priorization… > > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is ‘currently’ banned > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guaranties > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively done > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but it > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet.  In other bands (in particular the > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to > IP…And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the BSM band. > > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that pure > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And if > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such low > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly > Automated Driving demonstration J)…So, such provision also does not make > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. > > The problem is largely bigger than IETF…as I said: if the priority being > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do so. > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping between > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless of > the band or protocol stack.. > > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this? > > > BR, > > Jérôme > > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 > *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority > > Hi IPwavers, > > The AD (Mirja Kühlewind > ) > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: > > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >    'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > >    'Background' user priority. > > Best regards > > Nabil Benamar > > ------------------- > > نبيل بنعمرو > > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Wed Jul 10 02:09:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3DFC1200FA; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tCEirxTnFEFZ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA4101200EB; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A99jac011663; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:45 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 076712080E5; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C4C2080D2; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.28] ([132.166.86.28]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6A99i4H003389; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:44 +0200 To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= , "'Nabil Benamar'" , its@ietf.org, ipwave-chairs@ietf.org References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:09:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:09:51 -0000 Le 10/07/2019 à 10:53, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > Hi Nabil, > > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on where > the OCB is being used. > > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)… > > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM…, playing the devil’s advocate), we > might not need to indicate anything here…say: L3 is not the right level > to do such priorization… > > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is ‘currently’ banned > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guaranties > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively done > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but it > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet.  In other bands (in particular the > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to > IP…And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the BSM band. > > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that pure > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And if > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such low > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly > Automated Driving demonstration J)…So, such provision also does not make > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. > > The problem is largely bigger than IETF…as I said: if the priority being > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do so. > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping between > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless of > the band or protocol stack.. > > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this? My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz band. The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers. The alternative - it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers. Alex > > > BR, > > Jérôme > > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 > *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority > > Hi IPwavers, > > The AD (Mirja Kühlewind > ) > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: > > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >    'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > >    'Background' user priority. > > Best regards > > Nabil Benamar > > ------------------- > > نبيل بنعمرو > > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Wed Jul 10 02:11:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A58B120119; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:11:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WY3ZGbCI2Qf3; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x132.google.com (mail-lf1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B69801200FD; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x132.google.com with SMTP id 62so1058514lfa.8; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:11:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uqNy6Rn0FJ41cg78fdP/TOobtmh8edtBxSVvOMJQaTI=; b=CqDMEq1IhKfLJ2Q2/NrtFq8vlowe3PHUUq5td6ivBTns1dgDPLLSZpfWABQWQ3NCI1 A0+eV0pGneQxY46uzm2FF+qPvox5khm3EDt84ziREB728+HUpjAIXV90tL27aLPo40Ji WSMRR3MRsWaDO2E7iE2WOUZWfGrdwNQ2RetVUR0Tqd1TzunyTszn/NjCmCT5Rs+3KQCE AAW6oJ5f/MaK0p1H254Efkrrt55wcRid9hZF4Fexg7qFTzl1lRKJT7jKe+AEt7vbVhQz rGQ40nIFZrNLj+o9vB5f9hqrQIJ1nSLKCMi+umo4zWyyGNPB+hy8pmRlfJgrohpm56Z8 fzHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uqNy6Rn0FJ41cg78fdP/TOobtmh8edtBxSVvOMJQaTI=; b=uIgFI8SVjq3hy6FtN2zp/mlEB8t7aFioURD+OH6kM061wx5PVOpTZcDCIdvfId7wgL nT7N5XSiPGmjIvYdnb1qWi13pAFwYMSh4Y09EiCXQj12+xtrDBLk2WwjK8sPUN3ymplh 3oLq+I6u0N8c7a+l3FHwIppCspRc0GHzWnT8Y0/mpbfQHNuZ6vws/7P3rBQLBIK/IU9L vw1Q2VLWa5AgWG3joOJcAcDt13TTjT4dCCC9smd6Oy7pl/vHF/6Tt3avU3UHS9273UaT b0LwFo4JotomsJbahfx8iAk12zS64tSQ3c1jS9sRkhDaDQBgIn5Z+YrT0NR6wqncrBT8 167g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXHzjbv5pJyklI2Se5aU1XTgKtrIETHno0GaGxodROYHKLs5fK4 O4aB0oFdbYGKInGJoa/6JOhQOi8RKUAI2vVmP3s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwcQHoomjR7qDxc13+QeCyn+V1Bm+tBxZJ86t7VzJO05uwBeS5LcUJ7EPYiwiuymULeJMw63AD49J5pREndsuU= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6e41:: with SMTP id q1mr14786398lfk.20.1562749901776; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:11:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:11:29 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= , "its@ietf.org" , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4a9f3058d5010c6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:11:47 -0000 --000000000000c4a9f3058d5010c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Jerome, Alex Can we make it a 'MAY' in the text? Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit : > > Hi Nabil, > > > > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on where > > the OCB is being used. > > > > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by > > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic > > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)=E2=80= =A6 > > > > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is > > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the devil=E2=80= =99s advocate), we > > might not need to indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the rig= ht level > > to do such priorization=E2=80=A6 > > > > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is =E2=80=98currently= =E2=80=99 banned > > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the > > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guaranties > > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively don= e > > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but it > > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet. In other bands (in particular the > > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to > > IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the = BSM band. > > > > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that pure > > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does > > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And if > > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security > > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such low > > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent > > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly > > Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also does= not make > > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. > > > > The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the prior= ity being > > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a > > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do so= . > > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping between > > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless of > > the band or protocol stack.. > > > > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this? > > My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz ban= d. > > The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers. The alternative - > it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers. > > Alex > > > > > > > BR, > > > > J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me > > > > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar > > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 > > *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority > > > > Hi IPwavers, > > > > The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind > > < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/bal= lot/#mirja-kuhlewind>) > > > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: > > > > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > > > 'Background' user priority. > > > > Best regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > > > ------------------- > > > > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > its mailing list > > its@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > --000000000000c4a9f3058d5010c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, Jerome, Alex


Can we make it a 'MAY' in the text?


Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8= =A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88






<= /div>
O= n Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
=


Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=
> Hi Nabil,
>
> Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on wher= e
> the OCB is being used.
>
> If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by=
> CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic
> (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)=E2=80= =A6
>
> Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is=
> being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the devil=E2=80= =99s advocate), we
> might not need to indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the ri= ght level
> to do such priorization=E2=80=A6
>
> Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is =E2=80=98currentl= y=E2=80=99 banned
> on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the
> security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guarantie= s
> (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively do= ne
> via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but i= t
> is wrapped up in a Geonet packet.=C2=A0 In other bands (in particular = the
> ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to > IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the= BSM band.
>
> I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that pur= e
> IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does =
> not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And i= f
> IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such lo= w
> priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly
> Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also doe= s not make
> sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case)..
>
> The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the prio= rity being
> 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a
> IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do s= o.
> It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping betwee= n
> TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless o= f
> the band or protocol stack..
>
> Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this= ?

My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz band.=

The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers.=C2=A0 The alternative = -
it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers.

Alex

>
>
> BR,
>
> J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me
>
> *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar
> *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29
> *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chai= rs@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority
>
> Hi IPwavers,
>
> The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/bal= lot/#mirja-kuhlewind>)
> is asking why we MUST in the following sentence:
>
> The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the = use of QoS with a
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'Background' user priority.
>
> Best regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
>
> -------------------
>
> =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> its mailing list
> its@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
>
--000000000000c4a9f3058d5010c6-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 02:20:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931A612011A; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:20:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J2-NDqF7JMm2; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.eurecom.fr (smtp.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334761200EB; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:19:58 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.63,474,1557180000"; d="scan'208";a="10551920" Received: from monza.eurecom.fr ([192.168.106.15]) by drago1i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2019 11:19:58 +0200 Received: from xerus29 (xerus29.eurecom.fr [172.17.31.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by monza.eurecom.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBC9D304D; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:19:57 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= To: "'Alexandre Petrescu'" , "'Nabil Benamar'" , , References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:19:57 +0200 Organization: EURECOM Message-ID: <00a901d53700$a4acbf90$ee063eb0$@eurecom.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQDzkJgKNEPmg5lJGQDY6MEPZi+KlgGc0CE0AoVQM/KoZc1IkA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:20:04 -0000 Hi Alex, Technology neutrality should be the norm..I agree. But at the end, rules = for accessing spectrum is not the business of IETF. The ITU (and ETSI in = EU) fix rules...if IP can fulfill these rules, then I fully agree with = you...it should not be banned.=20 However, as of today, IP does not comply with two of these rules (EU = Security KPI and the duty cycle). As discussed in the past, it is the = duty of IPWAVE to define an RFC that shows that these two rules can be = fulfilled. I think this draft is a first step but does not provide = concrete solutions..(that will be the role of other draft/RFC, as I = understood)...we need to work on that... Yet, as mentioned, I also agree that 'hard coding' the lowest priority = in such OCB draft is also wrong. We should not mention anything...either = it is the application fixing it, or it is the access layer fixing = it...IP priority (as for non IP) should be decided by the = application...not changed by IP (breach of OSI layering actually). BR, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me=20 -----Original Message----- From: Alexandre Petrescu [mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday 10 July 2019 11:10 To: J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri; 'Nabil Benamar'; its@ietf.org; = ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit : > Hi Nabil, >=20 > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on = where=20 > the OCB is being used. >=20 > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by = > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic=20 > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly = unlikely)=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is = > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the = devil=E2=80=99s advocate), we=20 > might not need to indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the = right level=20 > to do such priorization=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is = =E2=80=98currently=E2=80=99 banned=20 > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the=20 > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement = guaranties=20 > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively = done=20 > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but = it=20 > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet. In other bands (in particular the=20 > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to=20 > IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the = BSM band. >=20 > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that = pure=20 > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does=20 > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And = if=20 > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security=20 > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such = low=20 > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent=20 > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly=20 > Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also = does not make=20 > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. >=20 > The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the = priority being=20 > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a=20 > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do = so.=20 > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping = between=20 > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless = of=20 > the band or protocol stack.. >=20 > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on = this? My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz = band. The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers. The alternative -=20 it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers. Alex >=20 >=20 > BR, >=20 > J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me >=20 > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 > *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority >=20 > Hi IPwavers, >=20 > The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind=20 > = )=20 > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: >=20 > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >=20 > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >=20 > 'Background' user priority. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Nabil Benamar >=20 > ------------------- >=20 > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 10 02:46:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947E1120119; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2A9kTptURDNT; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.eurecom.fr (smtp.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0CF120099; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.63,474,1557180000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="10552108" Received: from monza.eurecom.fr ([192.168.106.15]) by drago1i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2019 11:46:16 +0200 Received: from xerus29 (xerus29.eurecom.fr [172.17.31.38]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by monza.eurecom.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4F6B323A; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:46:15 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= To: "'Nabil Benamar'" , "'Alexandre Petrescu'" Cc: , References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:46:15 +0200 Organization: EURECOM Message-ID: <00ae01d53704$513f08a0$f3bd19e0$@eurecom.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AF_01D53715.14CDF320" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQDzkJgKNEPmg5lJGQDY6MEPZi+KlgGc0CE0AoVQM/IBiDOGNKhZjYBw Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:46:22 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01D53715.14CDF320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is complicated=E2=80=A6.even a MAY would be wrong=E2=80=A6why do we = need to indicate anything here?=20 =20 BR, =20 J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me=20 =20 From: Nabil Benamar [mailto:benamar73@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday 10 July 2019 11:11 To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri; its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority =20 Thanks, Jerome, Alex =20 =20 Can we make it a 'MAY' in the text? =20 =20 Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit : > Hi Nabil, >=20 > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on = where=20 > the OCB is being used. >=20 > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by = > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic=20 > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly = unlikely)=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is = > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the = devil=E2=80=99s advocate), we=20 > might not need to indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the = right level=20 > to do such priorization=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is = =E2=80=98currently=E2=80=99 banned=20 > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the=20 > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement = guaranties=20 > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively = done=20 > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but = it=20 > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet. In other bands (in particular the=20 > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to=20 > IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the = BSM band. >=20 > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that = pure=20 > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does=20 > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And = if=20 > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security=20 > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such = low=20 > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent=20 > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly=20 > Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also = does not make=20 > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. >=20 > The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the = priority being=20 > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a=20 > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do = so.=20 > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping = between=20 > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless = of=20 > the band or protocol stack.. >=20 > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on = this? My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz = band. The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers. The alternative -=20 it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers. Alex >=20 >=20 > BR, >=20 > J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me >=20 > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 > *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority >=20 > Hi IPwavers, >=20 > The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind=20 > = )=20 > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: >=20 > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >=20 > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >=20 > 'Background' user priority. >=20 > Best regards >=20 > Nabil Benamar >=20 > ------------------- >=20 > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01D53715.14CDF320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It is complicated=E2=80=A6.even a MAY would be wrong=E2=80=A6why do = we need to indicate=C2=A0 anything here?

 

BR,

 

J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me

 

From:= = Nabil Benamar [mailto:benamar73@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday 10 = July 2019 11:11
To: Alexandre Petrescu
Cc: = J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri; its@ietf.org; = ipwave-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' = in priority

 

Thanks, = Jerome, Alex

 

 

Can we make = it a 'MAY' in the = text?

=

 

 

Best regards

Nabil Benamar

-------------------

=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 = =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88

 

 

 

 

 

 

On = Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com= > wrote:



Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me = H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit :
> Hi Nabil,
>
> Well, = I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on where =
> the OCB is being used.
>
> If you use it over the = 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by
> CAM or BSM, = then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic
> (unless = you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)=E2=80=A6
> =
> Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of = traffic is
> being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, = playing the devil=E2=80=99s advocate), we
> might not need to = indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the right level
> = to do such priorization=E2=80=A6
>
> Now the real issue is = different: in ETSI, pure IP is =E2=80=98currently=E2=80=99 banned =
> on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support = the
> security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle = enforcement guaranties
> (in the form of a congestion = control/traffic shaping, also natively done
> via geonet)..even = LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but it
> is = wrapped up in a Geonet packet.  In other bands (in particular the =
> ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open = to
> IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also = banded on the BSM band.
>
> I do not want to enter this = debate...again, but then assuming that pure
> IP OCB traffic goes = on other bands, then such priority provision does
> not make = sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And if
> = IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security =
> framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce = such low
> priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB = transmits urgent
> safety-related data (as shown for example by = Alex on its Highly
> Automated Driving demonstration = J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also does not make
> sense (a hard = coded solution is not good in this case)..
>
> The problem = is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the priority being =
> 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on = a
> IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right = place to do so.
> It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to = decide on the mapping between
> TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of = the OCB devices...and this regardless of
> the band or protocol = stack..
>
> Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer = have another view on this?

My view on this is this: IP must be = sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz band.

The only mandatory thing = is the 802.11 DAta headers.  The alternative -
it is an = alternative - are the QoS Data headers.

Alex

>
> =
> BR,
>
> J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me
>
> = *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil = Benamar
> *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29
> *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [ipwave] = about the 'MUST' in priority
>
> Hi IPwavers,
> =
> The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6= -over-80211ocb/ballot/#mirja-kuhlewind>)
> is asking why = we MUST in the following sentence:
>
> The mapping to the = 802.11 data service MUST use a
>
>     = 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a
> =
>     'Background' user priority.
>
> = Best regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
>
> = -------------------
>
> =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 = =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88
>
>
>
> =
> _______________________________________________
> its = mailing list
> its@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
> =

------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01D53715.14CDF320-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 02:52:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E28A120099; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.451 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.451 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lbslKVyD6FpP; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED7CD120119; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id v24so1405000ljg.13; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:52:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Nynydg+ueyNCcSR8LK7Ai+9l69KwfAb7ALkCARChMdE=; b=jwSUwEB6gRyukfeRBNQ3neJCYjU9K4oUPAa8usZErG9iuUhFDW6lhrgBwBpGuSaUKi QFExw8QLJq6KzTcIjDx8lTTllS9odbDntBURpu3JUjFNh7aYv1w0liYbCIVccJS/sjlI XIbbKZjb5Wy34ux6oMLpUoYordk177fnQOydrjOL1hgmSDZrT70/Wdc6efeR08YJi+Jt hemLqdwR5RPQvjbueOEOA1Ela23kIdx024oOjVqEACGtgE6vd3uG2IX7DjpfKwjt3Z7/ ftw50tflcjnJXqIHKhLyZDvK5hbxxyuEP2qyTD/2znoD66j8rzo9apnkl0vggEPci1wE LPyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nynydg+ueyNCcSR8LK7Ai+9l69KwfAb7ALkCARChMdE=; b=KvhqCFWaPa0M5C8L0iAgQJsh4kcKleac0yCwIvGnSde8ym149oFmVbLNv4iV4pCTw2 cD9fPI77jPvP3sWTPb9DyASn3H97xe0Hoq+d6Qnxz+HFCVCz57dMR4GajKh6u5/myxZ0 O8uwWKFNwZGgkfJjvadUtZQrYfehvMqh+TtAkEA/Td5/7KkR9XUzIdtda5NkRB5+DqH5 z9fN77CfZw+/IWVnVxnx7oPbavsb1D3ErDHdD4UB/P5jmL5P9XaY03gtZXSFtAleZXdH 78fTRK5olYkyrEUQDeM2axHjuKcaZh1bJM7FodiBdQ+b/shtWIWsI2Dg4iwM4uvtDOoh lCxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVtDcezBvdnx+0FgxWeGd9cUFh/d+pNBzq74iEXvMze+pIGX5ik HsF7p4gmcvbTMjniPCCTIYiotjxHIBqBl1Ak0WE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx2GuzhiCC4Q84cFqDZLOXkSDRKc0wxlKDRlIk36kraWgsns/oJwm1RDVuhbwA0xy+tXKSfCjgbbRBTxJSyzwg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9857:: with SMTP id e23mr16677850ljj.217.1562752333046; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 02:52:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> <00ae01d53704$513f08a0$f3bd19e0$@eurecom.fr> In-Reply-To: <00ae01d53704$513f08a0$f3bd19e0$@eurecom.fr> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:52:02 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , "its@ietf.org" , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aee731058d50a140" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:52:19 -0000 --000000000000aee731058d50a140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, it's another option! If this is out of scope in the IETF, so maybe we need to reformulate or to remove. suggestions? Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:46 AM J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri wrote: > It is complicated=E2=80=A6.even a MAY would be wrong=E2=80=A6why do we ne= ed to indicate > anything here? > > > > BR, > > > > J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me > > > > *From:* Nabil Benamar [mailto:benamar73@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 11:11 > *To:* Alexandre Petrescu > *Cc:* J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri; its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority > > > > Thanks, Jerome, Alex > > > > > > Can we make it a 'MAY' in the text? > > > > > > Best regards > > Nabil Benamar > > ------------------- > > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu < > alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit : > > Hi Nabil, > > > > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on where > > the OCB is being used. > > > > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by > > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic > > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)=E2=80= =A6 > > > > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is > > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the devil=E2=80= =99s advocate), we > > might not need to indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the rig= ht level > > to do such priorization=E2=80=A6 > > > > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is =E2=80=98currently= =E2=80=99 banned > > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the > > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guaranties > > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively don= e > > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but it > > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet. In other bands (in particular the > > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to > > IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the = BSM band. > > > > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that pure > > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does > > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And if > > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security > > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such low > > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent > > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly > > Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also does= not make > > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. > > > > The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the prior= ity being > > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a > > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do so= . > > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping between > > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless of > > the band or protocol stack.. > > > > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this? > > My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz ban= d. > > The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers. The alternative - > it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers. > > Alex > > > > > > > BR, > > > > J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me > > > > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar > > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 > > *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority > > > > Hi IPwavers, > > > > The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind > > < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/bal= lot/#mirja-kuhlewind>) > > > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: > > > > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > > > 'Background' user priority. > > > > Best regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > > > ------------------- > > > > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > its mailing list > > its@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > > --000000000000aee731058d50a140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, it's another option!

If this is ou= t of scope in the IETF, so maybe we need to reformulate or to remove.
=

suggestions?

Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A= =D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88





<= /div>

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:46 AM J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri <<= a href=3D"mailto:jerome.haerri@eurecom.fr">jerome.haerri@eurecom.fr>= wrote:

It is complicated=E2=80=A6.even a MAY would be wrong= =E2=80=A6why do we need to indicate=C2=A0 anything here?

=C2=A0

BR,

=C2=A0

J= =C3=A9r=C3=B4me

= =C2=A0

From: Nabil Benamar [mailto:benamar73@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday 10 July 2019 11:11
To: Alexandre Petrescu=
Cc: J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri; its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ip= wave] about the 'MUST' in priority

=C2=A0

Thanks, Je= rome, Alex

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Can we make it a 'MAY' in the text?<= /u>

=C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0

Best regards

Nabil Benamar

--= -----------------

=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9= =84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1= 0:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:=



Le 10/0= 7/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>= ; Hi Nabil,
>
> Well, I do not fully remember the details, but= it might depend on where
> the OCB is being used.
>
> = If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by
= > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic
= > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)=E2=80= =A6
>
> Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what ty= pe of traffic is
> being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, pl= aying the devil=E2=80=99s advocate), we
> might not need to indicate= anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the right level
> to do such p= riorization=E2=80=A6
>
> Now the real issue is different: in E= TSI, pure IP is =E2=80=98currently=E2=80=99 banned
> on the 30Mhz be= tween 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the
> security PKI (na= tively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guaranties
> (in the fo= rm of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively done
> via= geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but it
&g= t; is wrapped up in a Geonet packet.=C2=A0 In other bands (in particular th= e
> ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open = to
> IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded= on the BSM band.
>
> I do not want to enter this debate...aga= in, but then assuming that pure
> IP OCB traffic goes on other bands= , then such priority provision does
> not make sense anymore (why lo= wer priority as there is only IP). And if
> IP is allowed in these b= ands (for instance, once a decent security
> framework will have bee= n devised), then we also cannot enforce such low
> priority, as it i= s also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent
> safety-related = data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly
> Automated Driving= demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also does not make
> se= nse (a hard coded solution is not good in this case)..
>
> The= problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the priority bei= ng
> 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on = a
> IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place t= o do so.
> It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the m= apping between
> TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...an= d this regardless of
> the band or protocol stack..
>
>= Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this?
My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz = band.

The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers.=C2=A0 The= alternative -
it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers.

= Alex

>
>
> BR,
>
> J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me>
> *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar
= > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29
> *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org
> *Subje= ct:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority
>
> Hi IPwa= vers,
>
> The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ballot/#mirja-kuhlewind>)
>= is asking why we MUST in the following sentence:
>
> The mapp= ing to the 802.11 data service MUST use a
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'Background' user priority.
&g= t;
> Best regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
>
> --= -----------------
>
> =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8= =B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88
>
>
>
>
> _________= ______________________________________
> its mailing list
> its@ietf.org
> https:= //www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
>

--000000000000aee731058d50a140-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 04:34:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744CD120316; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:34:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.451 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.451 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QVdmXB1LtFZt; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63D971202E2; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id b17so1346014lff.7; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:34:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dA8XMcpo/1jUxLgsjCxvaSBsnt2HOuVkvBrTMepPeQU=; b=AqQqgZ8HGU46aaMTiQ3QhFi2jQ8l8o76e+PHLGJ/uyJ1VWi9lEe3139TNT6/X3Rcxu rg0ofyfD2zixzweskUoW5Y3aVaLboPc9milvRnU4wcbnBOr4XBnpHtG1ZszRzumfKF5G xhTdzmXsYHIOx76+9vXb3pDOJRTUu2DIXBeMgGwfpg5bKULj26WG8M49WRpL8LTtwAH9 6UWpH1FmtUXkDAtqdCdT7mrFlnVKIzDJmeRlvhedfJk/p6POGo6UVTTcYiNRSgqkXlFA AcYVdKwgzKG+EXhLv1lj9Ah89oy8oKuEKuLtRYvjDHn4rE90mFdXMdkhvfA7Asj2spak PEug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dA8XMcpo/1jUxLgsjCxvaSBsnt2HOuVkvBrTMepPeQU=; b=odzTF2See/DsIyhwNMxMmzyvDQIWiVcbZVSuAs8xJA8DHQN79sQLmCxsTpzGM7D7R9 irm6fWm0zsv+tbB06p3ghxrAGFUgmTqFeNgelzkDGpp+vJa/fa/ua6gbrFsrzD5K9McK QmLax0eAaPLMnNDCcpKAhEK7q3aiD/bNHJ1RPQkl2ia/R9soY8sAWX7JHFGpJ+9uoyAl Bi6lckDBiAgEQoTNtg5QzFFqCSTt6RXtELedrubwA9q+VhLZUkCRwzIuR2NYH4ogXpRy Ef/xdfDuDmnZBq/fCibLbOkHQ5FU+D4XZJ1Rcg7IjydGClglV1mFRcW5h9VKOjIsS2oB Mnng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWrgIo3R9jn8YOKWxLAzGh2c8DlqIdBvhgmM0g4KLW5Rp4j7+RC AQ7XLsol0pcRJbh5aqJ9VgE/b1OOEWsPcG0rxZI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyulG1hq1fH0twm1HjHsrGqGivXMeq76K46RVVJx0gIiwKGv2qBNsGXIeuO0lszTgyXg00r+iB2qWbUrlT4LaM= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4c37:: with SMTP id u23mr14124860lfq.119.1562758476439; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:34:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> <00ae01d53704$513f08a0$f3bd19e0$@eurecom.fr> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:34:25 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , "its@ietf.org" , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dba27e058d520fcf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:34:47 -0000 --000000000000dba27e058d520fcf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would suggest removing this sentence since it was also raised by Pascal in previous review round. Avoiding this debate around priority is better. Comments? Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:52 AM Nabil Benamar wrote: > Yes, it's another option! > > If this is out of scope in the IETF, so maybe we need to reformulate or t= o > remove. > > suggestions? > > > Best regards > Nabil Benamar > ------------------- > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:46 AM J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri > wrote: > >> It is complicated=E2=80=A6.even a MAY would be wrong=E2=80=A6why do we n= eed to indicate >> anything here? >> >> >> >> BR, >> >> >> >> J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me >> >> >> >> *From:* Nabil Benamar [mailto:benamar73@gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 11:11 >> *To:* Alexandre Petrescu >> *Cc:* J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri; its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority >> >> >> >> Thanks, Jerome, Alex >> >> >> >> >> >> Can we make it a 'MAY' in the text? >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards >> >> Nabil Benamar >> >> ------------------- >> >> =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu < >> alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit : >> > Hi Nabil, >> > >> > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on wher= e >> > the OCB is being used. >> > >> > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently used by >> > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic >> > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)=E2=80= =A6 >> > >> > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of traffic is >> > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2=80=A6, playing the devil=E2=80= =99s advocate), >> we >> > might not need to indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the ri= ght level >> > to do such priorization=E2=80=A6 >> > >> > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is =E2=80=98currentl= y=E2=80=99 banned >> > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the >> > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guarantie= s >> > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively >> done >> > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but i= t >> > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet. In other bands (in particular the >> > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to >> > IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the= BSM band. >> > >> > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming that pur= e >> > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision does >> > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). And i= f >> > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security >> > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such lo= w >> > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent >> > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly >> > Automated Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also doe= s not >> make >> > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. >> > >> > The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the prio= rity >> being >> > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a >> > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to do >> so. >> > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping betwee= n >> > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this regardless o= f >> > the band or protocol stack.. >> > >> > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on this= ? >> >> My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the 5.9GHz >> band. >> >> The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers. The alternative - >> it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers. >> >> Alex >> >> > >> > >> > BR, >> > >> > J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me >> > >> > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar >> > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 >> > *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org >> > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority >> > >> > Hi IPwavers, >> > >> > The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind >> > < >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ba= llot/#mirja-kuhlewind>) >> >> > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: >> > >> > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >> > >> > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >> > >> > 'Background' user priority. >> > >> > Best regards >> > >> > Nabil Benamar >> > >> > ------------------- >> > >> > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > its mailing list >> > its@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> > >> >> --000000000000dba27e058d520fcf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would suggest removing this sen= tence since it was also raised by Pascal in previous review round.=C2=A0
Avoiding this debate around priority is better.=


Comments?
<= div dir=3D"ltr">


Best regards=
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8= =B1=D9=88







On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1= 0:52 AM Nabil Benamar <benamar73@= gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, it's a= nother option!

If this is out of scope in the IETF, so maybe we need to= reformulate or to remove.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-si= ze:small;color:rgb(11,83,148)">suggestions?
=


Best regard= s
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8= =B1=D9=88







On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 1= 0:46 AM J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri <jerome.haerri@eurecom.fr> wrote:

It is complicated=E2=80=A6.even a MAY wo= uld be wrong=E2=80=A6why do we need to indicate=C2=A0 anything here?

=C2=A0

BR,

=C2=A0

J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me

= =C2=A0

From: Nabil Benamar [mailto= :benamar73@gmail.c= om]
Sent: Wednesday 10 July 2019 11:11
To: Alexand= re Petrescu
Cc: J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri; its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org
Subject:<= /b> Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority<= /p>

=C2=A0

Thanks, Jerome, Alex

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Can we make it a 'MAY' in t= he text?

<= div>

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=

Best regards

Nabil Benamar

-------------------=

=D9=86=D8= =A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 10, = 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:<= u>


Le 10/07/2019 =C3=A0 10:53, J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me H=C3=A4rri a =C3=A9crit=C2= =A0:
> Hi Nabil,
>
> Well, I do not fully remember the d= etails, but it might depend on where
> the OCB is being used.
>= ;
> If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently u= sed by
> CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP t= raffic
> (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlik= ely)=E2=80=A6
>
> Now, this being said, as even IP does not kn= ow what type of traffic is
> being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM=E2= =80=A6, playing the devil=E2=80=99s advocate), we
> might not need t= o indicate anything here=E2=80=A6say: L3 is not the right level
> to= do such priorization=E2=80=A6
>
> Now the real issue is diffe= rent: in ETSI, pure IP is =E2=80=98currently=E2=80=99 banned
> on th= e 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the
> securi= ty PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement guaranties
> = (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also natively done > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, but= it
> is wrapped up in a Geonet packet.=C2=A0 In other bands (in par= ticular the
> ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), i= t is open to
> IP=E2=80=A6And in the US, if I remember well, IP is a= lso banded on the BSM band.
>
> I do not want to enter this de= bate...again, but then assuming that pure
> IP OCB traffic goes on o= ther bands, then such priority provision does
> not make sense anymo= re (why lower priority as there is only IP). And if
> IP is allowed = in these bands (for instance, once a decent security
> framework wil= l have been devised), then we also cannot enforce such low
> priorit= y, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent
> safet= y-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly
> Automat= ed Driving demonstration J)=E2=80=A6So, such provision also does not make <= br>> sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case)..
> > The problem is largely bigger than IETF=E2=80=A6as I said: if the pr= iority being
> 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst pr= iority on a
> IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the rig= ht place to do so.
> It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decid= e on the mapping between
> TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB de= vices...and this regardless of
> the band or protocol stack..
>= ;
> Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view o= n this?

My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of t= he 5.9GHz band.

The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers.= =C2=A0 The alternative -
it is an alternative - are the QoS Data header= s.

Alex

>
>
> BR,
>
> J=C3=A9r= =C3=B4me
>
> *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Nabil = Benamar
> *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29
> *To:* its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org> *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority
>
= > Hi IPwavers,
>
> The AD (Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
> &l= t;https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ballot/#mirja-kuhlewind&g= t;)
> is asking why we MUST in the following sentence:
>
&= gt; The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a
>
>=C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of = QoS with a
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'Background' user pr= iority.
>
> Best regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
>= ;
> -------------------
>
> =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 = =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88
>
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> its mailing l= ist
> its@ietf.org<= /a>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
>

--000000000000dba27e058d520fcf-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 04:37:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F8F120153 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:37:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pqCB-0QPduQZ for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89E5912012B for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id k20so3898600ios.10 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:36:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ccNVDPdevt3OqJcIajbxMW6tkuWYdyv9L6Agss5TBOE=; b=QBWH9ZhJjdnNqLqwv4RbtHcVA4HQ2Uf9vrfuZ+8dyakl/W4HOYV678WX/mu4ZN8kql zYeQomyuRZPlulIHP9p+eW4cIt07xBgRLWLwGnmSeAx5lou6KdYblFhApgne5/vJqKrB avatHZ/MTox1PxCI5EStP7pnbg4tysa1yKxbf3p7U8IfDJI1IJ+r1bNgpUb5ULAIiOiK qjyuxejt2SLXxu0kkMwCn1/+4fgqG5yiy1fenecpsQ609rlO0M212tvKRtxy1o0QItTW VfLTNQuqdsindy0HIfYCTkf0Iah56R0WL3+BV3PkkTIRCnFM/elmoVNTjZP+w4PenUuE 2c5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ccNVDPdevt3OqJcIajbxMW6tkuWYdyv9L6Agss5TBOE=; b=RWPHBaPyf1sXbnkinUCH2X3LevTqMeynVwvQpj9JhFG0g9f7e1Mv+BD5wir1xQotEA geVy4JCXQ9+utEafgEarnPwpd0s3+zabjfPEGqA1e1FGfkbvHUWGesWZTCKcyKhsQRrw Qr5iSUqYJSbkl00/cYyY7Z/HTR2/LysEGQbf808NxuyLBbLbG9d6t1IDHdVU1afc4zxf hKb6Lw1YvU0GOvRMJ2NA6qBTLOw4ENNmGEwK/3oOdr8KUkT59wkeG4Au6HzS/LNg3aiz WSxdmZQTgy+lX5AT1gBnEG7Q0rWQiNUfCOYZ4FajhjYnxi2DAPq022BwZlVNxlODSvAV YF4g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUq2OHccIeasWT7IPfnw6Hf92/4sjvHqE2f4h4ViLzV+WM1ZNW9 6ItyvnvzBlsRLSNKsLuovx9ucK+og0mypGgs60olIQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzZ44rYW/Mp1I49lUcR2agQT5BgaRDU/Mr3AsmRqnKR0j7ew5wxNpX4gPZOUrK18w54kwV8FXmuDiiIdroiE0k= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:88c6:: with SMTP id i6mr10089867iol.107.1562758616479; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:36:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:36:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: Roman Danyliw Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000348e8c058d5218b6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:37:04 -0000 --000000000000348e8c058d5218b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roman, Thank you for your detailed review. Let me start with the 'DISCUSS' comments. Please see my answers below. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5): > > (1) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies some t= hreats > [RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution > against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80=9D, a few > questions: > > ** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern? Which mitigations > for > them are being proposed? > > Since there is no Layer 2 security in OCB, anyone can join the same subne= t and impersonate any only else, to source traffic and get the traffic back= . > > There is no mitigation in this specification because it is limited to RFC= 4861 and 4862 and SeND is not available in the current stacks. > > > ** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and not deployed=E2=80=9D? > This was informational because it may be the only pertinent remediation. > (2) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the too= lbox of > the IP > security protocol designer. Some ETSI protocols related to security > protocols > in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D: > > ** Are there specific protocols to mention here? Would they be > different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of th= e > section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above that = may be > carried > out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > > ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from > [ETSI-sec-archi]? > This sentence is just informational. I propose to remove the whole sentence= . > > (3) Section 5.2. Per =E2=80=9CAn Interface ID SHOULD be of length specif= ied in > other > documents=E2=80=9D, what other documents? > I'm afraid no other documents as mentioned by Alex in its reply. To be removed. > > (4) Section 5.3 I=E2=80=99m having trouble following this section =E2=80= =93 is this a > discussion of a threat or mitigation? The references to Section 4.4 and > 5.0 > didn=E2=80=99t clarity this for me. > > ** What is meant by the drivers=E2=80=99 identity in this case? What is = the > pseudonym > scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being set for > it? > > ** What are the specific challenges of concern around pseudo-anonymizatio= n > approaches to which an allusion is made? > > ** Who is the trusted third parted needed? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (5) Section 1. Per =E2=80=9CThe resulting stack inherits from IPv6 over = Ethernet > [RFC2462], but operates over =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, what exactly is being in= herited? What > does > =E2=80=9Cinherited=E2=80=9D mean in this case? > > (6) Section 4.3. Per =E2=80=9CAmong these types of addresses only the IP= v6 > link-local > addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during > transition time=E2=80=9D, the meaning of the =E2=80=9Cin particular durin= g transition time > isn=E2=80=99t clear to me. > > (7) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CThe OCB operation is stripped off of =E2=80= =A6=E2=80=9D, is this > sentence > saying that OCB operations doesn=E2=80=99t use 802.11 link layer security > mechanisms, > or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link laye= r > security mechanisms? I=E2=80=99m getting caught up in the use of =E2=80= =9Cstripped off=E2=80=9D. > > (8) Section 5, Per =E2=80=9CAny attacker can therefore just sit in the ne= ar range > of > vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically break any > wall=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99d recommend revising this sentence to reflect th= at it isn=E2=80=99t just > vehicles and that active attacks are possible: > > NEW: > Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within range of = a > vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card=E2=80=99s frequency to th= e proper > range). > > (9) Section 5. What is =E2=80=9Cprotected 802.11=E2=80=9D mentioned in = =E2=80=9CSuch a link is > less > protected =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > > (10) Section 5.2. SHA256 needs a reference. > > (11) Editorial Nits > ** Table of Contents. There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C > > ** Section 1. Typo. s/Appendicies/Appendices/ > > ** Section 1. Typo. s/Concretly/Concretely/ > > ** Section 1. Editorial. s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and > [RFC2464]./ > > ** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference. > s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/ > > ** Section 4.5. Typo. s/.A A future/. A future/ > > ** Section 4.6. Typo. s/links; The/links. The/ > > ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/Futhermore/Furthermore/ > > ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/pricavy/privacy/ > > ** Section 5.2. Typo. s/admninistered/ administered/ > > ** Appendix B. s/Ammendment/Amendment/ > > ** Appendix H. Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/ > > ** Appendix I. Typo. s/specificed/specified/ > > ** Appendix I. Typo. s/Moreoever/Moreover/ > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000348e8c058d5218b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Roman,

Thank y= ou for your detailed review. Let me start with the 'DISCUSS' commen= ts.

Please see my answers bel= ow.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <<= a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org&g= t; wrote:
Roman = Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5):

(1) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies som= e threats
[RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80=9D, a few q= uestions:

** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern?=C2=A0 Which mitigatio= ns for
them are being proposed?
Since there is no Layer 2 =
security in OC=
B, anyone can join the same subnet and impersonate any only else, to=
 source traffic and get the traffic back. 
There is no mitigation in=
 this specification because it is limited to RFC 4861 and 4862 and SeND is =
not available in the current stacks.
= =C2=A0
** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and not deployed=E2=80=9D?

This was informational because it may be the only pertinent r= emediation.


(2) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the = toolbox of the IP
security protocol designer.=C2=A0 Some ETSI protocols related to security p= rotocols
in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D:

** Are there specific protocols to mention here?=C2=A0 Would they be
different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of the<= br> section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above that ma= y be carried
out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?

** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from [ETSI-sec-archi]= ?

This sentence is just informational. I propose to remove = the whole sentence.

(3) Section 5.2.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CAn Interface ID SHOULD be of length spe= cified in other
documents=E2=80=9D, what other documents?
I'm afraid no other d= ocuments as mentioned by Alex in its reply. To be removed.=C2=A0

(4) Section 5.3=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m having trouble following this section =E2= =80=93 is this a
discussion of a threat or mitigation?=C2=A0 The references to Section 4.4 a= nd 5.0
didn=E2=80=99t clarity this for me.

** What is meant by the drivers=E2=80=99 identity in this case?=C2=A0 What = is the pseudonym
scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being set for i= t?

** What are the specific challenges of concern around pseudo-anonymization<= br> approaches to which an allusion is made?

** Who is the trusted third parted needed?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(5) Section 1.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CThe resulting stack inherits from IPv6 ov= er Ethernet
[RFC2462], but operates over =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, what exactly is being inhe= rited?=C2=A0 What does
=E2=80=9Cinherited=E2=80=9D mean in this case?

(6) Section 4.3.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CAmong these types of addresses only the= IPv6 link-local
addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during transition time=E2=80=9D, the meaning of the =E2=80=9Cin particular during = transition time
isn=E2=80=99t clear to me.

(7) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CThe OCB operation is stripped off of =E2= =80=A6=E2=80=9D, is this sentence
saying that OCB operations doesn=E2=80=99t use 802.11 link layer security m= echanisms,
or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link layer<= br> security mechanisms?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m getting caught up in the use of =E2= =80=9Cstripped off=E2=80=9D.

(8) Section 5, Per =E2=80=9CAny attacker can therefore just sit in the near= range of
vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically break any wall=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99d recommend revising this sentence to reflect that= it isn=E2=80=99t just
vehicles and that active attacks are possible:

NEW:
Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within range of a<= br> vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card=E2=80=99s frequency to the = proper
range).

(9) Section 5.=C2=A0 What is =E2=80=9Cprotected 802.11=E2=80=9D mentioned i= n =E2=80=9CSuch a link is less
protected =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?

(10) Section 5.2.=C2=A0 SHA256 needs a reference.

(11) Editorial Nits
** Table of Contents.=C2=A0 There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C=

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Appendicies/Appendices/

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Concretly/Concretely/

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Editorial.=C2=A0 s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and = [RFC2464]./

** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference.
s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/

** Section 4.5.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/.A=C2=A0 A future/.=C2=A0 A future/

** Section 4.6. Typo.=C2=A0 s/links; The/links.=C2=A0 The/

** Section 5.1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Futhermore/Furthermore/

** Section 5.1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/pricavy/privacy/

** Section 5.2. Typo.=C2=A0 s/admninistered/ administered/

** Appendix B.=C2=A0 s/Ammendment/Amendment/

** Appendix H.=C2=A0 Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/

** Appendix I.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/specificed/specified/

** Appendix I. Typo.=C2=A0 s/Moreoever/Moreover/




--

Be= st Regards
Nabi= l Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Sciences
School of Technology
<= div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Moulay Ismail=C2=A0<= /font>University=C2=A0
=
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000348e8c058d5218b6-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 04:40:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45692120153 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:39:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N2BlI2bjmkxJ for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69F5312012B for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id g20so3908611ioc.12 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:39:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HDaShULeNXhytgPRaVSCOqdwjBLvLLioj90FeD1HU6o=; b=a7PYocfcdpd2dH73zfc40cmE7dExdl2okfefyhbSaP1r9KPhqdPCV7T7QewpI4o/mv BgXrIyY0DOq7uw/ZOzhcYseYGGefWhecHn2cPCew0CroVUq5WnGfaa5/8sedQE8K0wQA mE4h+DTntT96qwDdalgx17I1VeGZ/B3lof2gYait846wTCRphziXaisqJf4Q83ZlBAi3 IHSLMu7SjLth3jbDVJXNGhpcIg10GDLvFZtbHIO9QZ2yY61NcV7ylo3ghi3BhnhldY6D pnmJmml0Rga7ntUGxEUQjmEeLnNdrdeLVsRCgFjTNBrf87sqduwBCbCPhDgSn1flrHBc akyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HDaShULeNXhytgPRaVSCOqdwjBLvLLioj90FeD1HU6o=; b=BMXpBmgP/JsKnq9j9tWBmgZoGmpd4f+INtvfbWrj9fIjPVyk+tbxcTDD1735v9KoMs 4QXSe/W7yL86xnMPuVHSKnXnxqRr3vTfxhAqepMTE7Mynj54aHYy8OdBF+bVgEPKK4LK 355YBrw38BNWj/NaezRyj0VwhaF2eDZ3TsoXt9cxTtPhRvHWwk+XxSU+ToEBRXpJviqu X52mm3Ng55qUt2HyxkVpfFsUy8syHznPhTghkOm43NjC9mAJRSUloHPgW8ncFtR1mT9P SYBOTJ5ElzhgekL5HgHaP8HyEotNv4Hl2sWMrlbM0xZxGH+DIUdkhKYY4EdrvYOTU5Sb iWPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXEVBPUkeHwHc1LwnREmaK5Hj8sfzQ82hXyNGLT63M+2rZLef6o ZSihwACXExWT5ZiDNTpFWhC2fsuV85oEo9yQD+9e4g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxvqfLzC8Qh4ovewH0hXBWjkkdbJmAougDQygm31WmuE0lmXomCgWY/JCszLC0KyuKGQXGFsgWCzQkt8HnpN1Y= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:c8:: with SMTP id w8mr35591201jao.52.1562758795599; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 04:39:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:39:44 +0100 Message-ID: To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e1baf1058d522216" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:39:59 -0000 --000000000000e1baf1058d522216 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mirja, Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid confusion= . On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hi Nabil, > > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you _how_ > to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that is neede= d > and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further expla= in > why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? > > Mirja > > > > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar wrote= : > > > > Hi Mirja, > > > > Thank you for your review and comments. > > > > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on the > ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) t= o > provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. > > > > Here is what we got from them: > > > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2=80=9CU= ser > Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the inter= nal > details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specification. > > > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a binary > value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is > another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For exampl= e: > in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 bits in th= e > header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority information i= s > an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change. > > > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 > Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of > 802.11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the be= havior > required by the user. For example, the following text: > > > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in th= e Frame > Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value of the Traffi= c > Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header > MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority 'Background', QoS Access > Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D > > > > could be replaced by: > > > > > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80=98pri= ority=E2=80=99 value of > 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D use= r priority.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > Thanks again. > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in the > TSV-ART > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > > > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > 'Background' user priority." > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the assumptio= n > here > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less important > than > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document an= d > should > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would > need to be > > spelled out). > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was someho= w > deemed > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into the > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this > document > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as they > seem to > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. > > > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A > future > > improvement/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000e1baf1058d522216 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mi= rja,

Actually, the text was w= ritten some time ago and different views were shared in the group. I think = we need to remove this text to avoid=C2=A0confusion.

On Wed, Jul 10, 2= 019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <= ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
Hi Nabil,

I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you _how_ t= o specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that is needed a= nd if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further explain = why that is seen as a mandatory requirement?

Mirja



> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote: >
> Hi Mirja,
>
> Thank you for your review and comments.
>
> You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on th= e ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) t= o provide us with a review to help us clarify this point.
>
> Here is what we got from them:
>
> .=C2=A0 Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2= =80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave = the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specificatio= n.
>
> User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a binary= value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is anoth= er 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification.=C2=A0 For example:= in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 bits in the= header.=C2=A0 The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority informati= on is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change= .
>
> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 Cla= use 5.2.=C2=A0 This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of 802= .11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the behavio= r required by the user.=C2=A0 For example, the following text:
>
> =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in t= he Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the valu= e of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the= 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.=C2=A0 User Priority 'Bac= kground', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D
>
> could be replaced by:
>
>
> =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80=98pr= iority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a =E2=80=9C= Background=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker &l= t;noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<= br> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi= s
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/i= esg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in the = TSV-ART
> review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):
>
> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of= QoS with a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 'Background' user priority."
> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the assu= mption here
> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less= important than
> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document a= nd should
> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would n= eed to be
> spelled out).
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was someh= ow deemed
> as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into th= e
> appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this d= ocument
> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as the= y seem to
> have received less review and therefore have more nits.
>
> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A=C2=A0 A future improvement/in OCB mode.= A future
> improvement/
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
> Associate Professor
> Department of Computer Sciences
> School of Technology
> Moulay Ismail University
> Meknes. Morocco
>
>



--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000e1baf1058d522216-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 06:04:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41CE120225; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:04:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LR6gp_ufj1RB; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFC271201AA; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6AD47W4082756; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:04:07 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B6266208356; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:04:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6171020832F; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:03:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.101] ([132.166.86.101]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6AD3r09017438; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:03:53 +0200 To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= , "'Nabil Benamar'" Cc: its@ietf.org, ipwave-chairs@ietf.org References: <006101d536fc$fb1ae540$f150afc0$@eurecom.fr> <76e90201-c294-2e77-2f08-c66162af49ed@gmail.com> <00ae01d53704$513f08a0$f3bd19e0$@eurecom.fr> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:03:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00ae01d53704$513f08a0$f3bd19e0$@eurecom.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:04:16 -0000 there was a need expressed in the past by Pascal, asking what does this document do? An IP-over-foo document looks closely at what IP fields are and what foo fields are. QoS is one of them. Le 10/07/2019 à 11:46, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > It is complicated….even a MAY would be wrong…why do we need to indicate > anything here? > > BR, > > Jérôme > > *From:*Nabil Benamar [mailto:benamar73@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 11:11 > *To:* Alexandre Petrescu > *Cc:* Jérôme Härri; its@ietf.org; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority > > Thanks, Jerome, Alex > > Can we make it a 'MAY' in the text? > > Best regards > > Nabil Benamar > > ------------------- > > نبيل بنعمرو > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 10:09 AM Alexandre Petrescu > > wrote: > > > > Le 10/07/2019 à 10:53, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > > Hi Nabil, > > > > Well, I do not fully remember the details, but it might depend on > where > > the OCB is being used. > > > > If you use it over the 10Mhz ITS-band 5.895-5.905Ghz currently > used by > > CAM or BSM, then IP traffic MUST be lower than any non IP traffic > > (unless you send a BSM or a CAM/DENM, which is highly unlikely)… > > > > Now, this being said, as even IP does not know what type of > traffic is > > being Tx (could indeed by a CAM/DENM…, playing the devil’s > advocate), we > > might not need to indicate anything here…say: L3 is not the right > level > > to do such priorization… > > > > Now the real issue is different: in ETSI, pure IP is ‘currently’ > banned > > on the 30Mhz between 5.875-5.905 Mhz, as it does not support the > > security PKI (natively on geonet) and duty cycle enforcement > guaranties > > (in the form of a congestion control/traffic shaping, also > natively done > > via geonet)..even LTE-V2X is forced to used it...You can use IP, > but it > > is wrapped up in a Geonet packet.  In other bands (in particular the > > ITS-G5-D (RLAN) or the ITS-G5-B (5.855Ghz-5.875Ghz), it is open to > > IP…And in the US, if I remember well, IP is also banded on the > BSM band. > > > > I do not want to enter this debate...again, but then assuming > that pure > > IP OCB traffic goes on other bands, then such priority provision > does > > not make sense anymore (why lower priority as there is only IP). > And if > > IP is allowed in these bands (for instance, once a decent security > > framework will have been devised), then we also cannot enforce > such low > > priority, as it is also fully possible that IP-OCB transmits urgent > > safety-related data (as shown for example by Alex on its Highly > > Automated Driving demonstration J)…So, such provision also does > not make > > sense (a hard coded solution is not good in this case).. > > > > The problem is largely bigger than IETF…as I said: if the > priority being > > 1 (background traffic) is to put IP with the worst priority on a > > IP/non-IP shared band, an IETF document is not the right place to > do so. > > It is rather ETSI/IEEE/SAE which needs to decide on the mapping > between > > TC (IP or non IP) to the AC of the OCB devices...and this > regardless of > > the band or protocol stack.. > > > > Would any of the other co-authors or IPWAVer have another view on > this? > > My view on this is this: IP must be sent on any channel of the > 5.9GHz band. > > The only mandatory thing is the 802.11 DAta headers.  The alternative - > it is an alternative - are the QoS Data headers. > > Alex > > > > > > > BR, > > > > Jérôme > > > > *From:*its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Nabil Benamar > > *Sent:* Wednesday 10 July 2019 10:29 > > *To:* its@ietf.org ; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org > > > *Subject:* [ipwave] about the 'MUST' in priority > > > > Hi IPwavers, > > > > The AD (Mirja Kühlewind > > > ) > > > is asking why we MUST in the following sentence: > > > > The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > > >     'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > > >     'Background' user priority. > > > > Best regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > > > ------------------- > > > > نبيل بنعمرو > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > its mailing list > > its@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > From nobody Wed Jul 10 06:05:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8A5120142 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:05:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jajzC5MgfolV for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1171812013F for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6AD5Ug9083125 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:05:30 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7965420836D for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:05:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7280620832F for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:05:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.101] ([132.166.86.101]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6AD5U3f018459 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:05:30 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <9d12653d-1102-6b3e-d86c-f1194ef0716f@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:05:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:05:37 -0000 Le 10/07/2019 à 13:36, Nabil Benamar a écrit : > Hi Roman, > > Thank you for your detailed review. Let me start with the 'DISCUSS' > comments. > > Please see my answers below. > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker > > wrote: > > Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5): > > (1) Section 5.  Per “A previous work at SAVI WG identifies some threats > [RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution > against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.”, a few > questions: > > ** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern?  Which > mitigations for > them are being proposed? > > Since there is no Layer 2 security in OCB, anyone can join the same > subnet and impersonate any only else, to source traffic and get the > traffic back. ____ > > There is no mitigation in this specification because it is limited > to RFC 4861 and 4862 and SeND is not available in the current stacks. > > ** Why mention SeND if it is “complex and not deployed”? > > > This was informational because it may be the only pertinent remediation. We worked a few months to get SeND working with IPv6 on OCB. We were not successful. We reported the open source tools tried here on the list. At this time our IPv6-over-OCB trial is unsecured. Alex > > > (2) Section 5.  Per “More IETF protocols are available in the > toolbox of the IP > security protocol designer.  Some ETSI protocols related to security > protocols > in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].”: > > ** Are there specific protocols to mention here?  Would they be > different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning > of the > section -- “Any security mechanism as the IP layer or above that may > be carried > out …”? > > ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from > [ETSI-sec-archi]? > > > This sentence is just informational. I propose to remove the whole sentence. > > > (3) Section 5.2.  Per “An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified > in other > documents”, what other documents? > > I'm afraid no other documents as mentioned by Alex in its reply. To be > removed. > > > (4) Section 5.3  I’m having trouble following this section – is this a > discussion of a threat or mitigation?  The references to Section 4.4 > and 5.0 > didn’t clarity this for me. > > ** What is meant by the drivers’ identity in this case?  What is the > pseudonym > scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being > set for it? > > ** What are the specific challenges of concern around > pseudo-anonymization > approaches to which an allusion is made? > > ** Who is the trusted third parted needed? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (5) Section 1.  Per “The resulting stack inherits from IPv6 over > Ethernet > [RFC2462], but operates over …”, what exactly is being inherited? > What does > “inherited” mean in this case? > > (6) Section 4.3.  Per “Among these types of addresses only the IPv6 > link-local > addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during > transition time”, the meaning of the “in particular during > transition time > isn’t clear to me. > > (7) Section 5.  Per “The OCB operation is stripped off of …”, is > this sentence > saying that OCB operations doesn’t use 802.11 link layer security > mechanisms, > or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link > layer > security mechanisms?  I’m getting caught up in the use of “stripped > off”. > > (8) Section 5, Per “Any attacker can therefore just sit in the near > range of > vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically > break any > wall”, I’d recommend revising this sentence to reflect that it isn’t > just > vehicles and that active attacks are possible: > > NEW: > Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within > range of a > vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card’s frequency to the > proper > range). > > (9) Section 5.  What is “protected 802.11” mentioned in “Such a link > is less > protected …”? > > (10) Section 5.2.  SHA256 needs a reference. > > (11) Editorial Nits > ** Table of Contents.  There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C > > ** Section 1.  Typo.  s/Appendicies/Appendices/ > > ** Section 1.  Typo.  s/Concretly/Concretely/ > > ** Section 1.  Editorial.  s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and > [RFC2464]./ > > ** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference. > s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/ > > ** Section 4.5.  Typo.  s/.A  A future/.  A future/ > > ** Section 4.6. Typo.  s/links; The/links.  The/ > > ** Section 5.1.  Typo.  s/Futhermore/Furthermore/ > > ** Section 5.1.  Typo.  s/pricavy/privacy/ > > ** Section 5.2. Typo.  s/admninistered/ administered/ > > ** Appendix B.  s/Ammendment/Amendment/ > > ** Appendix H.  Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/ > > ** Appendix I.  Typo.  s/specificed/specified/ > > ** Appendix I. Typo.  s/Moreoever/Moreover/ > > > > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Wed Jul 10 06:18:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B97412024B; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nb7VqOt-0jCw; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28D6C120151; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.192.10.3] (helo=[10.149.0.24]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hlCUV-00079K-96; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:18:35 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 15:18:26 +0200 Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, The IESG , Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> To: Nabil Benamar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562764717;9d079de9; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hlCUV-00079K-96 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:18:41 -0000 Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. Mirja > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mirja, >=20 > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views were = shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid = confusion. >=20 > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: > Hi Nabil, >=20 > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you = _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that = is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you = further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar = wrote: > >=20 > > Hi Mirja, > >=20 > > Thank you for your review and comments. > >=20 > > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on = the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy = Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. > >=20 > > Here is what we got from them: > >=20 > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2=80=9C= User Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the = internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 = specification. > >=20 > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a = binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value = is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For = example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 = bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority = information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially = subject to change..=20 > >=20 > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 = Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of = 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the = behavior required by the user. For example, the following text: > >=20 > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in = the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value of = the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the = 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority = 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D=20 > >=20 > > could be replaced by: > >=20 > >=20 > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Thanks again. > >=20 > >=20 > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker = wrote: > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > >=20 > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > >=20 > >=20 > > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >=20 > >=20 > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in = the TSV-ART > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > >=20 > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > 'Background' user priority." > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the = assumption here > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less = important than > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document = and should > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would = need to be > > spelled out). > >=20 > >=20 > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was = somehow deemed > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into = the > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this = document > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as = they seem to > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. > >=20 > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A = future > > improvement/ > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > >=20 > > Best Regards > >=20 > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University=20 > > Meknes. Morocco > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best Regards >=20 > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University=20 > Meknes. Morocco >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 10 11:27:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32024120651; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:27:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alissa Cooper Message-ID: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:27:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 18:27:22 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I support Roman's DISCUSS. Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document specifies. I think it would help to have a clear statement about the circumstances under which each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941 addresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC 8064 have functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle change subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommendations for when IIDs should be re-generated? = Section 5.2 = "An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other documents." Isn't the length specified for each of the two IID generation mechanisms discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4? = Section 5.3 = "The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality of messages and trust between participants" Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I think this is incorrect. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please expand OCB and STA on first use. = Section 2 = "Note: compliance with standards and regulations set in different countries when using the 5.9GHz frequency band is required." I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being referenced here, but is there any specific reason why this needs to be said here? Presumably users of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with associated regulations governing their use. It's not clear to me that it makes sense to note this here. = Section 5.1.1 = "Further correlation of this information with other data captured by other means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute privacy risks." The normative MAY is not appropriate here. = Section 5.2 = "In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well defined renumbering events." The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the 802.11-OCB spec). From nobody Wed Jul 10 11:29:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819F3120651; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=S3/FP/Ld; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=t2MR3DkC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Z8fCEQFebn6; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DEC812065E; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149D34A1; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 14:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 10 Jul 2019 14:29:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm3; bh=v klnCxky77BFdValnAHo+DCCf6J0g1GYNwbhSkEMoso=; b=S3/FP/Ldf6NRqLjeb tFbbzgPPq9NJ7ulPVkH05j+xc9f8GfwpdS+IiEH+qd6dyTdYIbeoCujRwCMLAxS6 ZxvR4tHqCl+XX+HbDF0gF5VaDfjLKcDlASGkG+wzOk0nfwCkZVuKESm4sW9IAVsC EcD0gGh3nO3wCgfxzEUIPJWKtIo8BnXSrbeCv5pm25HvYVrY3uSE7fUs+b53iUIg fGFgoxIq7/X1tiTi7A77Hyjfhlezgq4zOsJH8ShowsW23nSyY+bkt4oZKrIdYrRx ZVkiX2iTk0v5hMvkvylkolO4CeSPAW+fncm0tS6XcajPE29B6nhSE+o/GXh8Aa+O NYwLA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=vklnCxky77BFdValnAHo+DCCf6J0g1GYNwbhSkEMo so=; b=t2MR3DkCmO4/m5MDwtCpZ0ll3bePqaolhgoBe9DxM1pkvgyE2DAb4RwrT RN88PAMDWiOv6VvaGR0iScqKDmuswqLk8pzQHxKUFltXLgV8Gj+pZuHpFtsfpJT8 lF9E9NJtYgp/Xpc+Ulrj9gOPFt3rlpVihfc3LoV8w3Qdr3zMeNphr1oV7Sr3Ywk9 5HR4M944CYyjTGXS7TFW74qRlfZ5/+10VLlbo2w3iYoSpWdXiHRFj4y57yUoNe3i +hn80jb5lM6LLCWNbKvI5fN7M40LBkF3AL6At9nxPBNZu+ZQfhq09gg9VmnQtUZa X/oSXRogq8usbp6uwYgQXktNrCfHw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrgeeigdduvdejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhishhsrgcuvehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegt ohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepudejfe drfeekrdduudejrdeludenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheprghlihhsshgrsegt ohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro2.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.91]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AA9F880061; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 14:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 14:29:13 -0400 Cc: gen-art@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Roni Even X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 18:29:19 -0000 Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. I = entered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity about the = relationship between MAC address changes and IID changes, among other = things. Alissa > On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review result: Ready with Issues >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. >=20 > For more information, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 > Reviewer: Roni Even > Review Date: 2019-07-03 > IETF LC End Date: None > IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 >=20 > Summary: > The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an = issue >=20 > Major issues: >=20 > Minor issues: >=20 > this is about my previous comment. > The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose egress = interface > is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent = correlation of > data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; = there is a > risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where = vehicles > typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in = indoors > settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools = such as > dynamically changing MAC addresses" > so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text = saying > that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative . >=20 > A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy = is to > change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots = up" >=20 > I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the = MAC > address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." >=20 > So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to = address > privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic = changing=20 > of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example = for when to > change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC = address > is to be determined. >=20 > To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks = are more > important for outdoor public environment and it is left for = implementations to > decide if and how to address it. >=20 > Nits/editorial comments: >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Gen-art mailing list > Gen-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art From nobody Wed Jul 10 13:38:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91562120147; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:38:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s90McQCg6EfR; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com (mail-lf1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 793D712004A; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id c19so2514099lfm.10; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:38:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DFbqToIPrTFDWi6NvOVgqmw1rJXT5yrzKYDDmjus3aw=; b=jgK0xlNyTlP9Wllgi1q59JhKhtnpZ/Z/ZnHWJISrFgogJ5+Gt8zOSHaUCdWYOOGf4E ZAGnjhK3V1HUon/R3rblTOTckLfmr6USlYCM0MVgueuLZtSkpZh1JS0MwQI+tVWOkAX+ wd86NhcaK1tett0qOFHT1dsVQlXGThU8XT6xoHNOyWpHHJL+pnqfrbnfFemUjbG19goa OoMaz6hKfMTBa0UheCOdjiAOG860O4fKvALiCifo66iFV8/ayogYEGTjZ/bpzi5Jx4Zc cjY9xGJLKE3Y5U8HFANaC8ou/sneeXMqkCPM9nSbTuiTQaPk5KE0AIUMC04RksZXo23T oN/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DFbqToIPrTFDWi6NvOVgqmw1rJXT5yrzKYDDmjus3aw=; b=MTtl2L52aXgQ9RzqEQNrplZioJLZMctgQYfTLJq4y+3IwCL3wrhctgzvogj0j5g0Mv X9nxdznrD+9+KBibgfrEZeTPiyX52IfR0XVNiMfUFWnqDaCMcxzfLgKZGKjJMdFFUa5I pGL1GuK8uqA10DAkr1IWIFpWC6DEereRkW759Bl9ebQP1lvf1nVbkEKLGCil8TamAqRn xEETUrbQatkK+NJgoWrmHrKDOvbg2pwdYaXg+an9npqgsh39zJ7PYYUvprt9lOjUG5K+ OhlNc1hVzxc2cPSrqhXG8IuIU5BWTieMiBffXs+HGm0Eg/IkVPGOi0F++pzAZmOQq3gp ZMNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVByxa7oVhzxNhpQ6yHWU3mLVkCLUO0Jnz5a+Z/YD57lMepeoDP 62rZp281sjjF2099G5vtdfX1SUDrmM4t0+HYZYk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyKJduHp7KHHWAgtyenv37CnYRs/31TDRqk1dcLB8hd6jhzDAYVGFEVloVMzgAtQBZo/cHhMhMCj8BSzs9/XJ0= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4c37:: with SMTP id u23mr15258430lfq.119.1562791095596; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:38:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:38:03 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: Roni Even , gen-art@ietf.org, "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" , "its@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c7e2b058d59a8ad" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:38:20 -0000 --0000000000001c7e2b058d59a8ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alissa, Thank you for your review. However, I have updated the draft and now it's in -49 reflecting previous comments. Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. I > entered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity about the relationshi= p > between MAC address changes and IID changes, among other things. > > Alissa > > > On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker > wrote: > > > > Reviewer: Roni Even > > Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. > > > > For more information, please see the FAQ at > > > > . > > > > Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 > > Reviewer: Roni Even > > Review Date: 2019-07-03 > > IETF LC End Date: None > > IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 > > > > Summary: > > The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an > issue > > > > Major issues: > > > > Minor issues: > > > > this is about my previous comment. > > The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose egress > interface > > is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent > correlation of > > data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; > there is a > > risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where vehicles > > typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indoo= rs > > settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools > such as > > dynamically changing MAC addresses" > > so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text > saying > > that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative . > > > > A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy is > to > > change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots > up" > > > > I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the > MAC > > address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." > > > > So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to > address > > privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic > changing > > of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example for > when to > > change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC > address > > is to be determined. > > > > To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks are > more > > important for outdoor public environment and it is left for > implementations to > > decide if and how to address it. > > > > Nits/editorial comments: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gen-art mailing list > > Gen-art@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --0000000000001c7e2b058d59a8ad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review. Howev= er, I have updated the draft and now it's in -49 reflecting previous co= mments.


Best regards
N= abil Benamar
--------------= -----
=D9= =86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88





<= /div>


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM Alissa Cooper <<= a href=3D"mailto:alissa@cooperw.in">alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
Roni, thanks for your = review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. I entered a DISCUSS ballot = to try to get more clarity about the relationship between MAC address chang= es and IID changes, among other things.

Alissa

> On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review result: Ready with Issues
>
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq<= /a>>.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review Date: 2019-07-03
> IETF LC End Date: None
> IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11
>
> Summary:
> The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an = issue
>
> Major issues:
>
> Minor issues:
>
> this is about my previous comment.
> The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking=C2=A0 an IP-OBU whos= e egress interface
> is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to=C2=A0 eavesdropping and subsequent = correlation of
> data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; th= ere is a
> risk of being tracked.=C2=A0 In outdoors public environments, where ve= hicles
> typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indo= ors
> settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protectio= n tools such=C2=A0 as
> dynamically changing MAC addresses"
> so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text s= aying
> that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normat= ive .
>
> A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change pol= icy is to
> change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots= up"
>
> I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating whe= n the MAC
> address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined.&qu= ot;
>
> So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to add= ress
> privacy concern are needed but without any normative text.=C2=A0 Dynam= ic changing
> of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned.=C2=A0 Examp= le for when to
> change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC= address
> is to be determined.
>
> To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks ar= e more
> important for outdoor public environment and it is left for implementa= tions to
> decide if and how to address it.
>
> Nits/editorial comments:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gen-art mailing list
> Gen-art@ietf.org=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art<= br>
_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
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fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffktgggufffjgfvfhfosegrtdhmrehhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhishhs rgcuvehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdeludenucfrrghrrghm pehmrghilhhfrhhomheprghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro2.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.91]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2CCFD80068; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:47:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: <754ADAB9-FFFB-4E4F-BB97-784C8BABC67B@cooperw.in> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8AB55C77-EFB9-4DE0-827D-0B08C3312F76" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:47:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: <79273E5C-9F51-4F37-B901-BB1B14D18A81@kaloom.com> Cc: Nabil Benamar , Roni Even , Gen art , "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" , "its@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" To: Suresh Krishnan References: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> <79273E5C-9F51-4F37-B901-BB1B14D18A81@kaloom.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:47:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8AB55C77-EFB9-4DE0-827D-0B08C3312F76 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I reviewed the -49 version so my questions are on that version. Alissa > On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Suresh Krishnan = wrote: >=20 > Hi Nabil, > Roni's telechat review is for the version on which I issued the = ballot (in this case it is -47). If you think the issue is resolved in a = later version (I do not believe so in this case), you can respond to = point out the actual text change that you made to address Roni=E2=80=99s = comment. >=20 > Thanks > Suresh >=20 >> On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Nabil Benamar > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Alissa, >>=20 >> Thank you for your review. However, I have updated the draft and now = it's in -49 reflecting previous comments. >>=20 >>=20 >> Best regards >> Nabil Benamar >> ------------------- >> =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM Alissa Cooper > wrote: >> Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. = I entered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity about the = relationship between MAC address changes and IID changes, among other = things. >>=20 >> Alissa >>=20 >> > On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker = > wrote: >> >=20 >> > Reviewer: Roni Even >> > Review result: Ready with Issues >> >=20 >> > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area >> > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed >> > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your >> > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. >> >=20 >> > For more information, please see the FAQ at >> >=20 >> > >. >> >=20 >> > Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 >> > Reviewer: Roni Even >> > Review Date: 2019-07-03 >> > IETF LC End Date: None >> > IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 >> >=20 >> > Summary: >> > The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with = an issue >> >=20 >> > Major issues: >> >=20 >> > Minor issues: >> >=20 >> > this is about my previous comment. >> > The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose = egress interface >> > is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent = correlation of >> > data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; = there is a >> > risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where = vehicles >> > typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in = indoors >> > settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools = such as >> > dynamically changing MAC addresses" >> > so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative = text saying >> > that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative . >> >=20 >> > A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change = policy is to >> > change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system = boots up" >> >=20 >> > I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when = the MAC >> > address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is = to-be-determined." >> >=20 >> > So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to = address >> > privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic = changing=20 >> > of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example = for when to >> > change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change = MAC address >> > is to be determined. >> >=20 >> > To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks = are more >> > important for outdoor public environment and it is left for = implementations to >> > decide if and how to address it. >> >=20 >> > Nits/editorial comments: >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Gen-art mailing list >> > Gen-art@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art = >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its = >=20 --Apple-Mail=_8AB55C77-EFB9-4DE0-827D-0B08C3312F76 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = reviewed the -49 version so my questions are on that version.
Alissa

On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:44 PM, = Suresh Krishnan <Suresh@kaloom.com> wrote:

Hi Nabil,
  Roni's telechat review is for the version on = which I issued the ballot (in this case it is -47). If you think the = issue is resolved in a later version (I do not believe so in this case), = you can respond to point out the actual text change that you made to address Roni=E2=80=99s comment.

Thanks
Suresh

On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Nabil Benamar <benamar73@gmail.com>= wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review. However, I have updated the draft and now = it's in -49 reflecting previous comments.


Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9= =84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88







On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM = Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. I = entered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity about the = relationship between MAC address changes and IID changes, among other = things.

Alissa

> On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review result: Ready with Issues
>
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General = Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from = your
> document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the = draft.
>
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review Date: 2019-07-03
> IETF LC End Date: None
> IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11
>
> Summary:
> The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with = an issue
>
> Major issues:
>
> Minor issues:
>
> this is about my previous comment.
> The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking  an IP-OBU whose = egress interface
> is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to  eavesdropping and = subsequent correlation of
> data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; = there is a
> risk of being tracked.  In outdoors public environments, where = vehicles
> typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in = indoors
> settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools = such  as
> dynamically changing MAC addresses"
> so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative = text saying
> that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative = .
>
> A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change = policy is to
> change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system = boots up"
>
> I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when = the MAC
> address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is = to-be-determined."
>
> So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to = address
> privacy concern are needed but without any normative text.  = Dynamic changing
> of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned.  = Example for when to
> change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change = MAC address
> is to be determined.
>
> To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks = are more
> important for outdoor public environment and it is left for = implementations to
> decide if and how to address it.
>
> Nits/editorial comments:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gen-art mailing list
> Gen-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


= --Apple-Mail=_8AB55C77-EFB9-4DE0-827D-0B08C3312F76-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 13:55:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1BB120025; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:55:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vwl4JtkAd60Z; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81C4D12001B; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id q26so2551189lfc.3; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hJF5MZYGZA7r9V6ulLft/t6vc6sCmvv4KRD3n8a6BDk=; b=RLNSCMe2rSTE8q3EkJrhYvGKpZAA1aDRrLx53qeBSfdeXKbmZy3qZCxw1vAPjlG2tP yJryUuKsUfmT1t0FSaaeqgNRrxOOFUXe6SmVIY3LYw9D3ZrOn7bD0KO+s3OZuW0vJEIo Ab8GUSb0THJaP1jDQehCSCAxBR6gn0GJYwYHp8cgxpgWjllcKjDijpcRTL58qMYaziHy tvFlvNTK73CKko62X3umKqcaajSW7CG5PZFcOE9YmvmU4E50Nn9O7g/8gmhI02sY0kdO HHa4zPEwulBu46hJIUgh0ZVxNnGn0SqOPGKKmpAwf+mb6L3Owoy9DkcBZ9JGybnHgtcv 8Uig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hJF5MZYGZA7r9V6ulLft/t6vc6sCmvv4KRD3n8a6BDk=; b=CrDu+UOWZfGKWnPZ3pzhWY6c7s4C5hWj1YhFWxdhuOcXThB7kzrD7BuTWTIVDj522G D5SvwBXApX8lWBLN9fv6Umm/6P42IeLfbvd4kzPqDDcjAFyuF1cce2nGkOgN1bSTnZwt dAy8cSHqlDP+NpilsbSZDic1t5L0XZCxCZhM8Emfjw3Q6NOae1f9dyTcCwyGQGl9O0Cp YfFma7d0ZhvBDjBVj6zOrBlPvy5Ftqi4fxQbiIhO2s7VNuta63/eHW1Ket6m8XFgAjvX /NgL/+x6ClNXwGINe7AcZZ8/b+d6DoKDY8EeEbHA9/ibhvCItzbN7BI9XfGAAKCfY9zD g28g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXEZlamEdxKTW8+DCSKGVb5JaFwJiIkJvzkfsZDvn1QcZmltGSg dKTsxvH/0Vui40yVrCX3fy+j4nBn94MV44aHLHI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyTBR1XWrfubqXWUoXdXUXNW/XB0HLc2LMJ3hQaCwutbLHb+OQdTLhUHJPuiH9L5ETgh7KCKwyDJvt7mX8Ok4c= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5dfb:: with SMTP id z27mr16042352lfq.128.1562792114558; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:55:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156222033675.12461.8547529207178996969@ietfa.amsl.com> <79273E5C-9F51-4F37-B901-BB1B14D18A81@kaloom.com> <754ADAB9-FFFB-4E4F-BB97-784C8BABC67B@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <754ADAB9-FFFB-4E4F-BB97-784C8BABC67B@cooperw.in> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:55:02 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: Suresh Krishnan , Roni Even , Gen art , "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" , "its@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d89cbf058d59e461" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:55:20 -0000 --000000000000d89cbf058d59e461 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alissa, I have previously replied to Roni as follows: If we look at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8065 which recommends the generic https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8064, we can say that we comply by inheritance from Ethernet since our current draft is targeted at using the RFC 2464 (plus IPv6 suite over Ethernet) with minimal changes, as we mention in the abstract (...for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link *with minimal change to * * existing stacks*). However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can leak the presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, if the same interface identifier is used with different prefixes as a device/vehicle moves between different networks. Hence, a vehicle should get hints about a change of environment (e.g. , engine running, GPS, whatever) and renew the IID in LLAs. and then I updated the to -49 by adding this text: "Furthermore, for pricavy concerns ([RFC8065 ]) recommends using an address generation scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer address." When I got no further comment from Roni, I thought it was resolved! Best regards Nabil Benamar ------------------- =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:47 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > I reviewed the -49 version so my questions are on that version. > Alissa > > On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > > Hi Nabil, > Roni's telechat review is for the version on which I issued the ballot > (in this case it is -47). If you think the issue is resolved in a later > version (I do not believe so in this case), you can respond to point out > the actual text change that you made to address Roni=E2=80=99s comment. > > Thanks > Suresh > > On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Nabil Benamar wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Thank you for your review. However, I have updated the draft and now it's > in -49 reflecting previous comments. > > > Best regards > Nabil Benamar > ------------------- > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > >> Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. I >> entered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity about the relationsh= ip >> between MAC address changes and IID changes, among other things. >> >> Alissa >> >> > On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker >> wrote: >> > >> > Reviewer: Roni Even >> > Review result: Ready with Issues >> > >> > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area >> > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed >> > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your >> > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. >> > >> > For more information, please see the FAQ at >> > >> > . >> > >> > Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 >> > Reviewer: Roni Even >> > Review Date: 2019-07-03 >> > IETF LC End Date: None >> > IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 >> > >> > Summary: >> > The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an >> issue >> > >> > Major issues: >> > >> > Minor issues: >> > >> > this is about my previous comment. >> > The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose egress >> interface >> > is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent >> correlation of >> > data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; >> there is a >> > risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where vehicle= s >> > typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in >> indoors >> > settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools >> such as >> > dynamically changing MAC addresses" >> > so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text >> saying >> > that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative . >> > >> > A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy i= s >> to >> > change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots >> up" >> > >> > I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the >> MAC >> > address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." >> > >> > So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to >> address >> > privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic >> changing >> > of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example fo= r >> when to >> > change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC >> address >> > is to be determined. >> > >> > To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks ar= e >> more >> > important for outdoor public environment and it is left for >> implementations to >> > decide if and how to address it. >> > >> > Nits/editorial comments: >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Gen-art mailing list >> > Gen-art@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art >> >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> > > > --000000000000d89cbf058d59e461 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Alissa,

I have previously replied to R= oni as follows:

If we look at=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8065=C2=A0which recom= mends the generic=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8064, we can say that we= =C2=A0 comply by inheritance from Ethernet since our current draft is targe= ted at using the RFC 2464 (plus IPv6 suite over Ethernet) with minimal chan= ges, as we mention in the abstract (...for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of

   one another over a single IEEE 802.=
11-OCB link with minimal change to=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0existing st= acks).=C2=A0


Howeve= r, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot,= the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can leak the presence of = the same vehicle in multiple places.=C2=A0Location tracking, if the same interface identifier is = used with=C2=A0= different prefixes as a device/vehicle moves between different networks.


Hence, a vehicle should g= et hints about a change of environment (e.g. , engine running, GPS, whateve= r) and renew the IID in LLAs.


and then I updated the to -49 by adding this text: "Furthermore, for

   p=
ricavy concerns ([R=
FC8065]) recommends using an address generation
   scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0address."


When I got no further comment from= Roni, I thought it was resolved!


Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9= =84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88





<= /div>


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:47 PM Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:44 PM, S= uresh Krishnan <S= uresh@kaloom.com> wrote:

Hi Nabil,
=C2=A0 Roni's telechat review is for the version on which I issued= the ballot (in this case it is -47). If you think the issue is resolved in= a later version (I do not believe so in this case), you can respond to poi= nt out the actual text change that you made to address Roni=E2=80=99s comment.

Thanks
Suresh

On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Nabil Benamar <benamar73@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thank you for your review. However, I have updated the draft and now it'= ;s in -49 reflecting previous comments.


Best regards
Nabil Benamar
-------------------
=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8= =D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88







On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM Aliss= a Cooper <alissa@= cooperw.in> wrote:
Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. I ent= ered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity about the relationship bet= ween MAC address changes and IID changes, among other things.

Alissa

> On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review result: Ready with Issues
>
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq<= /a>>.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review Date: 2019-07-03
> IETF LC End Date: None
> IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11
>
> Summary:
> The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an = issue
>
> Major issues:
>
> Minor issues:
>
> this is about my previous comment.
> The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking=C2=A0 an IP-OBU whos= e egress interface
> is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to=C2=A0 eavesdropping and subsequent = correlation of
> data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; th= ere is a
> risk of being tracked.=C2=A0 In outdoors public environments, where ve= hicles
> typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indo= ors
> settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protectio= n tools such=C2=A0 as
> dynamically changing MAC addresses"
> so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text s= aying
> that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normat= ive .
>
> A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change pol= icy is to
> change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots= up"
>
> I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating whe= n the MAC
> address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined.&qu= ot;
>
> So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to add= ress
> privacy concern are needed but without any normative text.=C2=A0 Dynam= ic changing
> of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned.=C2=A0 Examp= le for when to
> change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC= address
> is to be determined.
>
> To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks ar= e more
> important for outdoor public environment and it is left for implementa= tions to
> decide if and how to address it.
>
> Nits/editorial comments:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gen-art mailing list
> Gen-art@ietf.org=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--000000000000d89cbf058d59e461-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 13:57:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD421201E5 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnYJmB1_arwN for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C9DE120168 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id j5so3576223ioj.8 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ENqsmdoEYtC9T54wU4ErgkrvDoA8nIJVoO0+zxZSPNs=; b=vqMKQxfuziRj+lXQwykmjEgPqwmVarmYuDkNTfoB92khCtXzjIjqFWpEKRrANHghIT xATXEZ+ZUJSHHomawpsXuTMReRuch7ykxJx4i19vVUWhCXToMLwgQJW2h2Xpjb/f9XfM ZThqS59gRQ8R2/iBkG95F96En3n6aAMgk7WNhvCN3RtCq4pe2SrNyvF/7NlPjUcsZNI7 aC1/kIdC6FNxYJhxcGNSchSy8IR8rDxda58oPtDsaEPQrbGk4WLpmzyJSavKvnFYo9f0 Iu//Z4ORwjvlVZaJfkrB0e4JmFps65EDCX68XltYF9QWk2sAnT7zjui1dXGYuLc23NaP vfUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ENqsmdoEYtC9T54wU4ErgkrvDoA8nIJVoO0+zxZSPNs=; b=htOOrV3I6EmNbjyszm+QvLeDwgqqQHNa1rKnN/CA665MLK/UPAfTv3ZwrfAA/UV28E XNtCtFBdup9yVYiAy4qn+8ZIY+CLZhZHeQh3lUBSM1Z3KidAITDKjwXszDQd5wiiVIgo 4hA1/36aUHZt69mngkYvX7vTxNgIifMkrMHn2bv+sXvHuRGGpzO/2dr129nzPJ/zNFD3 Np3ZXK/4aHOXzJErxlT/Og6EJmxRtKTPsGURjiGL5Hlch8OPGWwfEZgh3IF665FTbVeF 4mMWK4YlXW1yDdT9rO4JtjEP+WA/YUP9FPevoVLAs9si3ck96xNRIVi13l35VJokq4G/ O1+g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXRTdJvQjSvMiLqkwgzRPa7L8fXWTS6cqp2kyBZrrtksauOnOCd jpOWG5wvkr7rfkdiroJkrrB3dzswuXZeBm1ewuBXpKJn2fETlcln X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjquZs4O/Q32PbmQHV0jCBGcDS2MLuK+tCeBogVop4bMyORt3bE+V/R8raaBASNmn97LD7s3QVONd47iuDMXk= X-Received: by 2002:a02:bb05:: with SMTP id y5mr42278jan.93.1562792256638; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:57:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:57:25 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000050ae0d058d59ed75" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:57:40 -0000 --00000000000050ae0d058d59ed75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Alissa, Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I support Roman's DISCUSS. > > Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document > specifies. > I think it would help to have a clear statement about the circumstances > under > which each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941 > addresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC 8064 > have > functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle change > subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommendations > for > when IIDs should be re-generated? > > Here is the new text in -49 An example of change policy is to change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up. This may help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level. Futhermore, for pricavy concerns ([RFC8065 ]) recommends using an address generation scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer address. > = Section 5.2 = > > "An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other documents." > > Isn't the length specified for each of the two IID generation mechanisms > discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4? > We decided to remove this sentence from the text since ther is no other document. > > = Section 5.3 = > > "The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' > identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias > identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality of > messages and trust between participants" > > Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I think > this is > incorrect. > I agree. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Please expand OCB and STA on first use. > > = Section 2 = > > "Note: compliance with > standards and regulations set in different countries when using the > 5.9GHz frequency band is required." > > I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being referenced here, > but > is there any specific reason why this needs to be said here? Presumably > users > of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with associated > regulations governing their use. It's not clear to me that it makes sense > to > note this here. > > = Section 5.1.1 = > > "Further > correlation of this information with other data captured by other > means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute > privacy risks." > > The normative MAY is not appropriate here. > > = Section 5.2 = > > "In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well > defined renumbering events." > > The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the 802.11-OCB > spec). > > > -- Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --00000000000050ae0d058d59ed75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alissa,

Thanks= again for your review. Please see my answers below


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 P= M Alissa Cooper via Datatracker <nor= eply@ietf.org> wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Roman's DISCUSS.

Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document specif= ies.
I think it would help to have a clear statement about the circumstances und= er
which each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941<= br> addresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC 8064 = have
functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle change subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommendations f= or
when IIDs should be re-generated?

Here is the new text in -49

An example of change policy is to change the MAC
   address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up.  This may
   help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level.  Futhermore, for
   pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends using an address generation
   scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0address.
=
=C2=A0
We decided to remove this= sentence from the text since ther is no other document.

=3D Section 5.3 =3D

"The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' =C2=A0 =C2=A0identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or ali= as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentia= lity of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0messages and trust between participants"

Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I think thi= s is
incorrect.

I agree.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Please expand OCB and STA on first use.

=3D Section 2 =3D

"Note: compliance with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standards and regulations set in different countries when usin= g the
=C2=A0 =C2=A05.9GHz frequency band is required."

I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being referenced he= re, but
is there any specific reason why this needs to be said here? Presumably use= rs
of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with associated
regulations governing their use. It's not clear to me that it makes sen= se to
note this here.

=3D Section 5.1.1 =3D

"Further
=C2=A0 =C2=A0correlation of this information with other data captured by ot= her
=C2=A0 =C2=A0means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY con= stitute
=C2=A0 =C2=A0privacy risks."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here.

=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined renumbering events."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the 802.11-OCB=
spec).




--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--00000000000050ae0d058d59ed75-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 16:40:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D78120019 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.603 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=us-toyota-itc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SNPbpKr4CSRg for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91139120247 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id q20so3983378otl.0 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:40:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=us-toyota-itc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f5Urh8L2GIfd6bSxLXPAPXzPsFztNao1brAl31XkR6w=; b=mlTJWOljq+ZX4F9qqrto5qeFqrr8UJuWjXSzUN9ZswkyTZ1hTXOXkOCP2G9EKGBLv5 SXV/ggpkY2m3KL4dckiFwqXui5sx9falCWfiHMlSzVRLlgmJ969S0fPzLUpn0bJKzN98 4G39+3N5hT3DEpl7yh8nJJW/CKydHTIY19b43XIhEokLXqLesOXyqxNYxU/9TfslpMXT nFPKcBHejNYFnTjhB8w40dY9VXHXIhRZN5deOUyeVNZ1QzTZWZsVyGGhXtUKMSujNi7+ eC1/RBw3zjv5HOUYYv/fW5aq24abSv/pMk0RE2ELcim7xhc5+yckdQDFqpK71y+P7s+d QW9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f5Urh8L2GIfd6bSxLXPAPXzPsFztNao1brAl31XkR6w=; b=K7OHlRoju3ImYVoGvzeT8eaDwIXEHP1G25kMSAM2pVi2RFwFhNHEV4/CTX0E8E2pxk VKBBeY8y04ixyk2xHMwn5qpN7RG5Sq4vELSQ8yvImRMFILjIqsKgf5IPDqqNqPG1o+NE dlgWAnTOdm/nlzfbSqgU0GOK1KkYHxdbQBILFH1fJ96WT3QE41KIHwa+Tsy54/y2jkIA fysCqKIuw6Dg88R8mdGogqpMSPaHFFGlitBUlsUzOm/mVeqgv6NVd6UNIJcyrbVqq4LA Kv9YxOjWGhn9EDhFWGbXXwXhzKr8HCCp5iF2og754QJaJLhsl4aGKa6RyEJM/D9k94qH WbcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUDUBG0ERqephloN/vbSyGRtUbCqhGkCn2g3wRIPULIbZSAd8ic HlWIGFScWwhWHXOMELh/QhWTYsP2ksiccaNzha038A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzj/aeQTUp1CRE5NZQBiHq+QLGQRdoLpSG1GucJsuVLvMhlCsza7dKTg+VMfdV2WSNKqAelsFv/LyJPOWKk4HA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2969:: with SMTP id d96mr854058otb.85.1562802024477; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:40:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> In-Reply-To: <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> From: John Kenney Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 16:40:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Nabil Benamar , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , The IESG , its , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000860860058d5c3357" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:40:30 -0000 --000000000000860860058d5c3357 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All: I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would be cautious about remov= ing the current language unless you are convinced that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. Best Regards, John On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. > > Mirja > > > > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > > > > Hi Mirja, > > > > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views were > shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid confusi= on. > > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: > > Hi Nabil, > > > > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you > _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that is > needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you furthe= r > explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mirja, > > > > > > Thank you for your review and comments. > > > > > > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on > the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stanl= y) > to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. > > > > > > Here is what we got from them: > > > > > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2=80= =9CUser > Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the inter= nal > details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specification. > > > > > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a binar= y > value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is > another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For exampl= e: > in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 bits in th= e > header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority information i= s > an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. > > > > > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 > Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of > 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the b= ehavior > required by the user. For example, the following text: > > > > > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in = the Frame > Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value of the Traffi= c > Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header > MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority 'Background', QoS Access > Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D > > > > > > could be replaced by: > > > > > > > > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80=98p= riority=E2=80=99 value of > 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D use= r priority.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut th= is > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb= / > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > DISCUSS: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in the > TSV-ART > > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > > > > > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > > 'Background' user priority." > > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the > assumption here > > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less importan= t > than > > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping document > and should > > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it would > need to be > > > spelled out). > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was > somehow deemed > > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into t= he > > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this > document > > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as > they seem to > > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. > > > > > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A > future > > > improvement/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > > > Nabil Benamar > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Computer Sciences > > > School of Technology > > > Moulay Ismail University > > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --=20 John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 --000000000000860860058d5c3357 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All:

I have no desire to re-litigate= the QoS issue. However, it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB wi= ll typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life com= munications. In the US, FCC regulations require that such safety communicat= ions have access priority over other communications [47 CFR=C2=A0=C2=A7 90.= 377(d)] .=C2=A0 I would be cautious about removing the current language unl= ess you are convinced that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety= communications.

Best Regards,
John

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
Thanks. Removing this text entirely is= a good option.

Mirja


> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:<= br> >
> Hi Mirja,
>
> Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views were = shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid confusion= .
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:<= br> > Hi Nabil,
>
> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you _h= ow_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that is nee= ded and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further exp= lain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement?
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
> > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wro= te:
> >
> > Hi Mirja,
> >
> > Thank you for your review and comments.
> >
> > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively = on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stan= ly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point.
> >
> > Here is what we got from them:
> >
> > .=C2=A0 Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with= =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and le= ave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specific= ation.
> >
> > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a b= inary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value is = another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification.=C2=A0 For exa= mple: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 bits i= n the header.=C2=A0 The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority info= rmation is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to c= hange..
> >
> > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-201= 6 Clause 5.2.=C2=A0 This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details o= f 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the b= ehavior required by the user.=C2=A0 For example, the following text:
> >
> > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field= in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the= value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field o= f the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.=C2=A0 User Priority = 9;Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D
> >
> > could be replaced by:
> >
> >
> > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80= =98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a =E2= =80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks again.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatrack= er <noreply@ietf.o= rg> wrote:
> > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position fo= r
> > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to= all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cu= t this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.= org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her= e:
> > https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
> > DISCUSS:
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
> >
> > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in= the TSV-ART
> > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):
> >
> > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a<= br> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the u= se of QoS with a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 'Background' user priority."
> > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the= assumption here
> > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is= less important than
> > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping docum= ent and should
> > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it wo= uld need to be
> > spelled out).
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
> > COMMENT:
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
> >
> > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was = somehow deemed
> > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed in= to the
> > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in t= his document
> > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially a= s they seem to
> > have received less review and therefore have more nits.
> >
> > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A=C2=A0 A future improvement/in OCB = mode. A future
> > improvement/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Nabil Benamar
> > Associate Professor
> > Department of Computer Sciences
> > School of Technology
> > Moulay Ismail University
> > Meknes. Morocco
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
> Associate Professor
> Department of Computer Sciences
> School of Technology
> Moulay Ismail University
> Meknes. Morocco
>
>

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
John Kenney
Director and Sr. Principal Researcher
Toyota InfoTech Labs
465 Bernardo Avenue
Mountain View, CA 94043
Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644
<= /div>
--000000000000860860058d5c3357-- From nobody Wed Jul 10 21:01:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5836120098; Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:01:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Barry Leiba Message-ID: <156281766686.15253.17107868671965711674.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:01:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 04:01:07 -0000 Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A very simple point to fix: I think that IEEE-802.11-2016 should be normative because it is the reference for 802.11-OCB and is the subject of a MUST in Section 4.2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- These are all editorial comments: — Section 4.4 — For Interface Identifiers for IPv6 address of type 'Link-Local' are discussed in Section 4.3. 
There’s something wrong with that sentence. Maybe it’s just that the first word needs to be struck? Regardless of how to form the IID, its length is 64 bits, as is the case of the IPv6 over Ethernet [RFC2464]. There’s something wrong with this sentence too, but I don’t know what the fix is: I don’t know what the “as is the case...” part is meant to say. Can you try rephrasing? If semantically opaque IIDs are needed, they MAY be generated using the method for generating semantically opaque IIDs This isn’t wrong with the “MAY”, but I think it really is just a non-keyword “may”. — Section 4.5.2 — The meaning of the value "3333" mentioned in that section 7 of [RFC2464] As you’ve just given the section reference in the previous sentence, I think it reads better to use the context and just say, “The meaning of the value "3333" mentioned there”. — Section 4.6 — A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of vehicles that are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). At first I tried to understand what the in-vehicle interfaces had to do with the close range. I think it’s clearer with this word order: NEW When vehicles are in close range, a subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). END An IPv6 subnet on which Neighbor Discovery protocol (ND) can be mapped on an OCB network if all nodes share a single broadcast Domain, which is generally the case for P2P OCB links; This isn’t a complete sentence: it has a subject, but no verb. What is it trying to say? Also, the semicolon should be a period, as it’s not useful to chain it onto the following sentence. strict (e.g. fast drive through IP-RSU coverage) The “e.g.” needs a comma after it (or change it to “such as with”), and “fast-drive-through” needs to be hyphenated, as a compound modifier. — Section 5 — application-layer mechanisms are out-of- scope of this document. Here, “out of scope” should not be hyphenated (it’s not a modifier). and performs attacks without needing to physically break any wall. “and performs attacks” shoud be “and perform attacks”. The “physically break any wall” part seems kind of odd, as there are clearly no physical walls involved at all. What are you really trying to say? The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP address and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section 5.1. What is “Section 5.1” about? Is that meant to be a citation, like “[Section 5.1]” ? — Section 5.1 — A vehicle embarking an IP- OBU whose egress interface is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; there is a risk of being tracked. It’s awkward to chain three sentences with semicolons. I would separate the first one: change the first semicolon into a period. as dynamically changing MAC addresses Section 5.2, semantically opaque Interface Identifiers and stable Interface Identifiers Section 4.4. The two section references should be bracketed, as “[Section 5.2]”. Futhermore, for pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends Make it, “Futhermore, for privacy concerns, [RFC8065] recommends“. — Section 5.1.1 — means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute privacy risks. This “MAY” should definitely be “may”: it’s just a statement of fact. — Section 5.2 — In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well defined renumbering events. Also a statement of fact, so “may”. From nobody Thu Jul 11 01:39:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2E5120105 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KKr_k0bIzwU7 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd42.google.com (mail-io1-xd42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB13E120133 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd42.google.com with SMTP id g20so10729297ioc.12 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:38:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZLPMPbc0U9fcTXU80W5ItN1tf3EV0jeWy/Igwl57iHc=; b=C8vl0StUU5oNoWteqS1z6zPYw+HHtM0kVsrvaGx2uAmK3U0wypW07G9zpNtNrBg+Mv cTa5F3t+wOpvHnLafLGEl60QOKaXD5SI4yh1KGKw6cSm8gE+d4+W51xY9tXROje0y7w8 7BooEv7WO8UZiflP96Wl8NXHJKUabRtZO8QIuL0NkOh+NpdAtSvzE6n78QnWLYs4D4oV ksWv3kOaSu7RhUsaYRSD1w2hMK753+tpGEDxAe0VacM8McspgbHHo8ogLArMfx5HLb20 PWjvKAb2ttUxPRan+5zcI6m12zn6e+vUoEhKAnYa55DQ8QkP9T/ZnU2wdCONeCGH3Mkg OM9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZLPMPbc0U9fcTXU80W5ItN1tf3EV0jeWy/Igwl57iHc=; b=oYpnqUXrSth+RFwbOIjGuppBecm+mwT2zFxPYtR8iWDGXJT6TBlO0wS9hFSA+Dx0d2 36rJTcKvhakhy9c5UX3iFUh97E97sg8t1q2U340OdD1dHApB7wMO+cbiCwGlXAKDk9qh 5hgcOAdTIZj5+WyY0k8dSkvXvxj95UbwujY8R2/ciCQZIXyMiRmmAwlnLzsgDYU79HG7 0gQ4Ed95MI/43JKq1sWkbncSv8huiu6aJQP6VMgfw0fVAO0j3f+lGuqFENIFNelW+4Pt U+xZfmcRJFgXIcoyOPl92aSWTxARIc8wdxDWKt8L/ACDJjl7uxHGch0J9e9soAgEwXr5 76kA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXDEKMECdtmoIcVatg781GGbc0bl2mndEt6Kove7HUwewsbAHat zDVjpyIfCHf7TyDn88IZgin0GmloiXylE/S4oTk1bw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwqUJDcKqzrFAA8LVgG5oRQ6+LG+yJBUkz5wJTmyZf05YP3NXeJBNJ7cWkASHtEBKbQ7G7BZzmzep+W7tarAgI= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8890:: with SMTP id d16mr2936199ioo.274.1562834331819; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 01:38:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156281766686.15253.17107868671965711674.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156281766686.15253.17107868671965711674.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:38:40 +0100 Message-ID: To: Barry Leiba Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000030f809058d63b995" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:38:58 -0000 --00000000000030f809058d63b995 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Barry, Thank you for your review. I'll update this reference in the next version. Thank you for proofreading the paper and for your comments, which will be reflected in the next version. Much appreciated. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 5:01 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A very simple point to fix: > > I think that IEEE-802.11-2016 should be normative because it is the > reference > for 802.11-OCB and is the subject of a MUST in Section 4.2. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > These are all editorial comments: > > =E2=80=94 Section 4.4 =E2=80=94 > > For Interface Identifiers for > IPv6 address of type 'Link-Local' are discussed in Section 4.3. > There=E2=80=99s something wrong with that sentence. Maybe it=E2=80=99s j= ust that the first > word needs to be struck? > > Regardless of how > to form the IID, its length is 64 bits, as is the case of the IPv6 > over Ethernet [RFC2464]. > > There=E2=80=99s something wrong with this sentence too, but I don=E2=80= =99t know what the > fix > is: I don=E2=80=99t know what the =E2=80=9Cas is the case...=E2=80=9D par= t is meant to say. Can > you > try rephrasing? > > If > semantically opaque IIDs are needed, they MAY be generated using the > method for generating semantically opaque IIDs > > This isn=E2=80=99t wrong with the =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D, but I think it r= eally is just a > non-keyword > =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D. > > =E2=80=94 Section 4.5.2 =E2=80=94 > > The meaning of the value "3333" > mentioned in that section 7 of [RFC2464] > > As you=E2=80=99ve just given the section reference in the previous senten= ce, I > think it > reads better to use the context and just say, =E2=80=9CThe meaning of the= value > "3333" > mentioned there=E2=80=9D. > > =E2=80=94 Section 4.6 =E2=80=94 > > A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of vehicles that > are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). > > At first I tried to understand what the in-vehicle interfaces had to do > with > the close range. I think it=E2=80=99s clearer with this word order: > > NEW > When vehicles are in close range, a subnet may be formed over > 802.11-OCB interfaces (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). > END > > An IPv6 subnet on which Neighbor Discovery protocol (ND) can be > mapped on an OCB network if all nodes share a single broadcast > Domain, which is generally the case for P2P OCB links; > > This isn=E2=80=99t a complete sentence: it has a subject, but no verb. W= hat is it > trying to say? Also, the semicolon should be a period, as it=E2=80=99s n= ot useful > to > chain it onto the following sentence. > > strict (e.g. fast drive through IP-RSU coverage) > > The =E2=80=9Ce.g.=E2=80=9D needs a comma after it (or change it to =E2=80= =9Csuch as with=E2=80=9D), and > =E2=80=9Cfast-drive-through=E2=80=9D needs to be hyphenated, as a compoun= d modifier. > > =E2=80=94 Section 5 =E2=80=94 > > application-layer mechanisms are out-of- > scope of this document. > > Here, =E2=80=9Cout of scope=E2=80=9D should not be hyphenated (it=E2=80= =99s not a modifier). > > and performs attacks > without needing to physically break any wall. > > =E2=80=9Cand performs attacks=E2=80=9D shoud be =E2=80=9Cand perform atta= cks=E2=80=9D. > The =E2=80=9Cphysically break any wall=E2=80=9D part seems kind of odd, a= s there are > clearly no > physical walls involved at all. What are you really trying to say? > > The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP address > and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section 5.1. > > What is =E2=80=9CSection 5.1=E2=80=9D about? Is that meant to be a citat= ion, like > =E2=80=9C[Section > 5.1]=E2=80=9D ? > > =E2=80=94 Section 5.1 =E2=80=94 > > A vehicle embarking an IP- > OBU whose egress interface is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to > eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of data; this may reveal > data considered private by the vehicle owner; there is a risk of > being tracked. > > It=E2=80=99s awkward to chain three sentences with semicolons. I would s= eparate > the > first one: change the first semicolon into a period. > > as dynamically changing MAC addresses Section 5.2, semantically > opaque Interface Identifiers and stable Interface Identifiers > Section 4.4. > > The two section references should be bracketed, as =E2=80=9C[Section 5.2]= =E2=80=9D. > > Futhermore, for > pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends > > Make it, =E2=80=9CFuthermore, for privacy concerns, [RFC8065] recommends= =E2=80=9C. > > =E2=80=94 Section 5.1.1 =E2=80=94 > > means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute > privacy risks. > > This =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D should definitely be =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D: it= =E2=80=99s just a statement of fact. > > =E2=80=94 Section 5.2 =E2=80=94 > > In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well > defined renumbering events. > > Also a statement of fact, so =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D. > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --00000000000030f809058d63b995 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Barry,

Thank y= ou for your review.

I'll = update this reference in the next version.
Thank you for proofreading the paper and for your= comments, which will be reflected in the next version.

Much appreciated.

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 5= :01 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <= noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A very simple point to fix:

I think that IEEE-802.11-2016 should be normative because it is the referen= ce
for 802.11-OCB and is the subject of a MUST in Section 4.2.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

These are all editorial comments:

=E2=80=94 Section 4.4 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0For Interface Identifiers for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv6 address of type 'Link-Local' are discussed in Sec= tion 4.3.
There=E2=80=99s something wrong with that sentence.=C2=A0 Maybe it=E2=80=99= s just that the first
=C2=A0word needs to be struck?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Regardless of how
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to form the IID, its length is 64 bits, as is the case of the = IPv6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0over Ethernet [RFC2464].

There=E2=80=99s something wrong with this sentence too, but I don=E2=80=99t= know what the fix
is: I don=E2=80=99t know what the =E2=80=9Cas is the case...=E2=80=9D part = is meant to say.=C2=A0 Can you
try rephrasing?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0If
=C2=A0 =C2=A0semantically opaque IIDs are needed, they MAY be generated usi= ng the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0method for generating semantically opaque IIDs

This isn=E2=80=99t wrong with the =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D, but I think it rea= lly is just a non-keyword
=E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D.

=E2=80=94 Section 4.5.2 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The meaning of the value "3333"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mentioned in that section 7 of [RFC2464]

As you=E2=80=99ve just given the section reference in the previous sentence= , I think it
reads better to use the context and just say, =E2=80=9CThe meaning of the v= alue "3333"
mentioned there=E2=80=9D.

=E2=80=94 Section 4.6 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of vehicles = that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces).

At first I tried to understand what the in-vehicle interfaces had to do wit= h
the close range.=C2=A0 I think it=E2=80=99s clearer with this word order:
NEW
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When vehicles are in close range, a subnet may be formed over<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0802.11-OCB interfaces (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). END

=C2=A0 =C2=A0An IPv6 subnet on which Neighbor Discovery protocol (ND) can b= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mapped on an OCB network if all nodes share a single broadcast=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Domain, which is generally the case for P2P OCB links;

This isn=E2=80=99t a complete sentence: it has a subject, but no verb.=C2= =A0 What is it
trying to say?=C2=A0 Also, the semicolon should be a period, as it=E2=80=99= s not useful to
chain it onto the following sentence.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0strict (e.g. fast drive through IP-RSU coverage)

The =E2=80=9Ce.g.=E2=80=9D needs a comma after it (or change it to =E2=80= =9Csuch as with=E2=80=9D), and
=E2=80=9Cfast-drive-through=E2=80=9D needs to be hyphenated, as a compound = modifier.

=E2=80=94 Section 5 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0application-layer mechanisms are out-of-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0scope of this document.

Here, =E2=80=9Cout of scope=E2=80=9D should not be hyphenated (it=E2=80=99s= not a modifier).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0and performs attacks
=C2=A0 =C2=A0without needing to physically break any wall.

=E2=80=9Cand performs attacks=E2=80=9D shoud be =E2=80=9Cand perform attack= s=E2=80=9D.
The =E2=80=9Cphysically break any wall=E2=80=9D part seems kind of odd, as = there are clearly no
physical walls involved at all.=C2=A0 What are you really trying to say?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP add= ress
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section 5.1.

What is =E2=80=9CSection 5.1=E2=80=9D about?=C2=A0 Is that meant to be a ci= tation, like =E2=80=9C[Section
5.1]=E2=80=9D ?

=E2=80=94 Section 5.1 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A vehicle embarking an IP-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0OBU whose egress interface is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of data; this may rev= eal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data considered private by the vehicle owner; there is a risk = of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0being tracked.

It=E2=80=99s awkward to chain three sentences with semicolons.=C2=A0 I woul= d separate the
first one: change the first semicolon into a period.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0as dynamically changing MAC addresses Section 5.2, semanticall= y
=C2=A0 =C2=A0opaque Interface Identifiers and stable Interface Identifiers<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.4.

The two section references should be bracketed, as =E2=80=9C[Section 5.2]= =E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Futhermore, for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends

Make it, =E2=80=9CFuthermore, for privacy concerns, [RFC8065] recommends=E2= =80=9C.

=E2=80=94 Section 5.1.1 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY con= stitute
=C2=A0 =C2=A0privacy risks.

This =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D should definitely be =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D: it= =E2=80=99s just a statement of fact.

=E2=80=94 Section 5.2 =E2=80=94

=C2=A0 =C2=A0In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during we= ll
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined renumbering events.

Also a statement of fact, so =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D.




--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--00000000000030f809058d63b995-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 06:36:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043F41200E0; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:36:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.107 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.107 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.247, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ly6kQBVRwNMf; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-f50.google.com (mail-io1-f50.google.com [209.85.166.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0BAC1200A3; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-f50.google.com with SMTP id g20so12501798ioc.12; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:36:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uotAHExx4go7E207tNi1xk9bhRbAqGRCUoxYbpgDGi0=; b=ic4WD88ESBfYLFeZQ1wUgYZCSTUs81bl0G+Uo7M2iXUapNI8dFQgOYnnJSpgw6Njie Xt1Jdxa8xei/CMExSBXypIuYHQsqHsgjwnOUeaYUKYD9917pscPZBJ01UD/QW95JH8RO v2LwBgo+nUrLzLFacgGJP4kAF3Kg9RxPQ2pUSyamRojjKXeEuvl5t7ILfTYYm+nv6xYw 0tNel7/sVwf6OYITA1n0pBTaaRw+JYC1zFaYaL4phemK7BoxVe1VYKO0VHdWu3qyr4kT QRsdV23DRVski83vqf5it8nk++0mZlFn7Hf7FDy9+EFb7sR9lzJG8rgmq1ZaSU/L+cyY NXRg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVFSLcNgiHCfQcY6nNfUzEReJBiuxj4dZ3hrpJH2OkNbWU24Tyk XJWEOT52owHIMgH0FQ2yuPEwb4UeZqPI3Y2aHlA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyKKQv1dQCXn09xyUdB9taj1t9yl+z9gKewg4tFvrqCAkaminYRSUHXOz+gltoM0niXj4Lpqgm9oYsWlHolke8= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:88c6:: with SMTP id i6mr4488817iol.107.1562852198886; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:36:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156281766686.15253.17107868671965711674.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Barry Leiba Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:36:27 -0400 Message-ID: To: Nabil Benamar Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:36:42 -0000 Thanks for the quick reply, Nabil, and I will clear my DISCUSS now in anticipation of the reference change. Barry On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 4:39 AM Nabil Benamar wro= te: > > Hi Barry, > > Thank you for your review. > > I'll update this reference in the next version. > Thank you for proofreading the paper and for your comments, which will be= reflected in the next version. > > Much appreciated. > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 5:01 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker wrote: >> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A very simple point to fix: >> >> I think that IEEE-802.11-2016 should be normative because it is the refe= rence >> for 802.11-OCB and is the subject of a MUST in Section 4.2. >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> These are all editorial comments: >> >> =E2=80=94 Section 4.4 =E2=80=94 >> >> For Interface Identifiers for >> IPv6 address of type 'Link-Local' are discussed in Section 4.3. >> There=E2=80=99s something wrong with that sentence. Maybe it=E2=80=99s = just that the first >> word needs to be struck? >> >> Regardless of how >> to form the IID, its length is 64 bits, as is the case of the IPv6 >> over Ethernet [RFC2464]. >> >> There=E2=80=99s something wrong with this sentence too, but I don=E2=80= =99t know what the fix >> is: I don=E2=80=99t know what the =E2=80=9Cas is the case...=E2=80=9D pa= rt is meant to say. Can you >> try rephrasing? >> >> If >> semantically opaque IIDs are needed, they MAY be generated using the >> method for generating semantically opaque IIDs >> >> This isn=E2=80=99t wrong with the =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D, but I think it = really is just a non-keyword >> =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D. >> >> =E2=80=94 Section 4.5.2 =E2=80=94 >> >> The meaning of the value "3333" >> mentioned in that section 7 of [RFC2464] >> >> As you=E2=80=99ve just given the section reference in the previous sente= nce, I think it >> reads better to use the context and just say, =E2=80=9CThe meaning of th= e value "3333" >> mentioned there=E2=80=9D. >> >> =E2=80=94 Section 4.6 =E2=80=94 >> >> A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of vehicles that >> are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). >> >> At first I tried to understand what the in-vehicle interfaces had to do = with >> the close range. I think it=E2=80=99s clearer with this word order: >> >> NEW >> When vehicles are in close range, a subnet may be formed over >> 802.11-OCB interfaces (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). >> END >> >> An IPv6 subnet on which Neighbor Discovery protocol (ND) can be >> mapped on an OCB network if all nodes share a single broadcast >> Domain, which is generally the case for P2P OCB links; >> >> This isn=E2=80=99t a complete sentence: it has a subject, but no verb. = What is it >> trying to say? Also, the semicolon should be a period, as it=E2=80=99s = not useful to >> chain it onto the following sentence. >> >> strict (e.g. fast drive through IP-RSU coverage) >> >> The =E2=80=9Ce.g.=E2=80=9D needs a comma after it (or change it to =E2= =80=9Csuch as with=E2=80=9D), and >> =E2=80=9Cfast-drive-through=E2=80=9D needs to be hyphenated, as a compou= nd modifier. >> >> =E2=80=94 Section 5 =E2=80=94 >> >> application-layer mechanisms are out-of- >> scope of this document. >> >> Here, =E2=80=9Cout of scope=E2=80=9D should not be hyphenated (it=E2=80= =99s not a modifier). >> >> and performs attacks >> without needing to physically break any wall. >> >> =E2=80=9Cand performs attacks=E2=80=9D shoud be =E2=80=9Cand perform att= acks=E2=80=9D. >> The =E2=80=9Cphysically break any wall=E2=80=9D part seems kind of odd, = as there are clearly no >> physical walls involved at all. What are you really trying to say? >> >> The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP address >> and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section 5.1. >> >> What is =E2=80=9CSection 5.1=E2=80=9D about? Is that meant to be a cita= tion, like =E2=80=9C[Section >> 5.1]=E2=80=9D ? >> >> =E2=80=94 Section 5.1 =E2=80=94 >> >> A vehicle embarking an IP- >> OBU whose egress interface is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to >> eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of data; this may reveal >> data considered private by the vehicle owner; there is a risk of >> being tracked. >> >> It=E2=80=99s awkward to chain three sentences with semicolons. I would = separate the >> first one: change the first semicolon into a period. >> >> as dynamically changing MAC addresses Section 5.2, semantically >> opaque Interface Identifiers and stable Interface Identifiers >> Section 4.4. >> >> The two section references should be bracketed, as =E2=80=9C[Section 5.2= ]=E2=80=9D. >> >> Futhermore, for >> pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends >> >> Make it, =E2=80=9CFuthermore, for privacy concerns, [RFC8065] recommends= =E2=80=9C. >> >> =E2=80=94 Section 5.1.1 =E2=80=94 >> >> means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute >> privacy risks. >> >> This =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D should definitely be =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D: i= t=E2=80=99s just a statement of fact. >> >> =E2=80=94 Section 5.2 =E2=80=94 >> >> In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well >> defined renumbering events. >> >> Also a statement of fact, so =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D. >> >> > > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > From nobody Thu Jul 11 06:42:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2873E120114 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ezv5hW3eT-a9 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94B45120119 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id s7so12532888iob.11 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:42:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y3zgB1Pz3M9VA22WTmS654NhsUBOkBRo7KcVq4C5twE=; b=aaLzAk25IVwYr+/req/8tBE04rIYKnblkFSV4XhvVCO8lhHzYs2xV81Tifn+bv3lSK BWhKHnNEpH/LnRuXEETqntuHsTkw1TLxwfJnmZ3W1qSF+cSIU1MVSRRJtYJU/Qbou0wV Z1el74MTh/O7j8kXM+gpAB8sbIWl99+h428wOakP/DM1cfvXc5c3nZDWfgt747Vinovn eDElykwnd+02Rak6xZ4+uTWRO5spW/hpx7Y9KIJigLv5tMxkLP2r5XAh2g1LnnU8yhBC 71cM/AwjpRDwMZ3RDZIqqDSwbFaAxcpA9UHJUwf2n8OxWblk2rQIoZPq2A3deU5QF9no n7zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y3zgB1Pz3M9VA22WTmS654NhsUBOkBRo7KcVq4C5twE=; b=J1Nz9qqmbl4Z4aBgaPpqFg9oOZ/EwJK3PWzkOQ9bwDm8rTy6fCbQ9XaxaIizw6jGC6 axVFXODYlfBwmghXDt+KMBlwqWoZR0Xm1XyoKZtGHkeLJPliewRoOMlE8m4srpEVOW56 aCPxhrdoIEwSf8KjlJJDGCJSlxbU3U2uAx6zslhIKo8PJPAHs9GSbf+I0JeztEHlJAm9 PbczIPXblNIVaoC0UIWavNdmEFvFHXlwExqnplulVMTJrgnlpOpQJTt37Y1fLKzkweJh e5js7T0PH3/NKZ/PNHVOv8D183MPJQyq7pglPQK+dTWixev9nm1zCpyhGzGQcobmnsKp oY5g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWyKBE0k7Zw6Yq4uzZoJMBN46cB0nEbBSBo99z6f0xtLy2CEeCL 4p7bu1GCxU1uR3fDa3D1uPZ7CjGhE/E7g/G51cBFqw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwu+/u9TYDC+HSeErZUz93g/MCvRZTAJkabIVb1OyoN+0iiOQOK1B09/QCyNsckf2WIQ1EzndjPzUscLdC+9To= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:691d:: with SMTP id e29mr4161020ioc.96.1562852543707; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:42:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156281766686.15253.17107868671965711674.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:42:12 +0100 Message-ID: To: Barry Leiba Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b460e9058d67f66a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:42:30 -0000 --000000000000b460e9058d67f66a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Much much appreciated, Barry! Thanks to everybody reviewing, commenting and proofreading this draft. Yours. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:36 PM Barry Leiba wrote= : > Thanks for the quick reply, Nabil, and I will clear my DISCUSS now in > anticipation of the reference change. > > Barry > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 4:39 AM Nabil Benamar > wrote: > > > > Hi Barry, > > > > Thank you for your review. > > > > I'll update this reference in the next version. > > Thank you for proofreading the paper and for your comments, which will > be reflected in the next version. > > > > Much appreciated. > > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 5:01 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > >> > >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for > >> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > >> > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi= s > >> introductory paragraph, however.) > >> > >> > >> Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >> > >> > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > >> > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> DISCUSS: > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> A very simple point to fix: > >> > >> I think that IEEE-802.11-2016 should be normative because it is the > reference > >> for 802.11-OCB and is the subject of a MUST in Section 4.2. > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> COMMENT: > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> These are all editorial comments: > >> > >> =E2=80=94 Section 4.4 =E2=80=94 > >> > >> For Interface Identifiers for > >> IPv6 address of type 'Link-Local' are discussed in Section 4.3. > >> There=E2=80=99s something wrong with that sentence. Maybe it=E2=80=99= s just that the > first > >> word needs to be struck? > >> > >> Regardless of how > >> to form the IID, its length is 64 bits, as is the case of the IPv6 > >> over Ethernet [RFC2464]. > >> > >> There=E2=80=99s something wrong with this sentence too, but I don=E2= =80=99t know what > the fix > >> is: I don=E2=80=99t know what the =E2=80=9Cas is the case...=E2=80=9D = part is meant to say. > Can you > >> try rephrasing? > >> > >> If > >> semantically opaque IIDs are needed, they MAY be generated using th= e > >> method for generating semantically opaque IIDs > >> > >> This isn=E2=80=99t wrong with the =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D, but I think i= t really is just a > non-keyword > >> =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D. > >> > >> =E2=80=94 Section 4.5.2 =E2=80=94 > >> > >> The meaning of the value "3333" > >> mentioned in that section 7 of [RFC2464] > >> > >> As you=E2=80=99ve just given the section reference in the previous sen= tence, I > think it > >> reads better to use the context and just say, =E2=80=9CThe meaning of = the value > "3333" > >> mentioned there=E2=80=9D. > >> > >> =E2=80=94 Section 4.6 =E2=80=94 > >> > >> A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of vehicles that > >> are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). > >> > >> At first I tried to understand what the in-vehicle interfaces had to d= o > with > >> the close range. I think it=E2=80=99s clearer with this word order: > >> > >> NEW > >> When vehicles are in close range, a subnet may be formed over > >> 802.11-OCB interfaces (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). > >> END > >> > >> An IPv6 subnet on which Neighbor Discovery protocol (ND) can be > >> mapped on an OCB network if all nodes share a single broadcast > >> Domain, which is generally the case for P2P OCB links; > >> > >> This isn=E2=80=99t a complete sentence: it has a subject, but no verb.= What is > it > >> trying to say? Also, the semicolon should be a period, as it=E2=80=99= s not > useful to > >> chain it onto the following sentence. > >> > >> strict (e.g. fast drive through IP-RSU coverage) > >> > >> The =E2=80=9Ce.g.=E2=80=9D needs a comma after it (or change it to =E2= =80=9Csuch as with=E2=80=9D), and > >> =E2=80=9Cfast-drive-through=E2=80=9D needs to be hyphenated, as a comp= ound modifier. > >> > >> =E2=80=94 Section 5 =E2=80=94 > >> > >> application-layer mechanisms are out-of- > >> scope of this document. > >> > >> Here, =E2=80=9Cout of scope=E2=80=9D should not be hyphenated (it=E2= =80=99s not a modifier). > >> > >> and performs attacks > >> without needing to physically break any wall. > >> > >> =E2=80=9Cand performs attacks=E2=80=9D shoud be =E2=80=9Cand perform a= ttacks=E2=80=9D. > >> The =E2=80=9Cphysically break any wall=E2=80=9D part seems kind of odd= , as there are > clearly no > >> physical walls involved at all. What are you really trying to say? > >> > >> The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP address > >> and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section 5.1. > >> > >> What is =E2=80=9CSection 5.1=E2=80=9D about? Is that meant to be a ci= tation, like > =E2=80=9C[Section > >> 5.1]=E2=80=9D ? > >> > >> =E2=80=94 Section 5.1 =E2=80=94 > >> > >> A vehicle embarking an IP- > >> OBU whose egress interface is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to > >> eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of data; this may reveal > >> data considered private by the vehicle owner; there is a risk of > >> being tracked. > >> > >> It=E2=80=99s awkward to chain three sentences with semicolons. I woul= d > separate the > >> first one: change the first semicolon into a period. > >> > >> as dynamically changing MAC addresses Section 5.2, semantically > >> opaque Interface Identifiers and stable Interface Identifiers > >> Section 4.4. > >> > >> The two section references should be bracketed, as =E2=80=9C[Section 5= .2]=E2=80=9D. > >> > >> Futhermore, for > >> pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends > >> > >> Make it, =E2=80=9CFuthermore, for privacy concerns, [RFC8065] recommen= ds=E2=80=9C. > >> > >> =E2=80=94 Section 5.1.1 =E2=80=94 > >> > >> means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitu= te > >> privacy risks. > >> > >> This =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D should definitely be =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D:= it=E2=80=99s just a statement of fact. > >> > >> =E2=80=94 Section 5.2 =E2=80=94 > >> > >> In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well > >> defined renumbering events. > >> > >> Also a statement of fact, so =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D. > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000b460e9058d67f66a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Much = much=C2=A0appreciated, Barry!

Thanks to everybody reviewing, commenting and proofreading this draft.

Yours.

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019= at 2:36 PM Barry Leiba <barr= yleiba@computer.org> wrote:
Thanks for the quick reply, Nabil, and I will clear my D= ISCUSS now in
anticipation of the reference change.

Barry

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 4:39 AM Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:<= br> >
> Hi Barry,
>
> Thank you for your review.
>
> I'll update this reference in the next version.
> Thank you for proofreading the paper and for your comments, which will= be reflected in the next version.
>
> Much appreciated.
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 5:01 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wr= ote:
>>
>> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut= this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.o= rg/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here= :
>> https://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
>> DISCUSS:
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
>>
>> A very simple point to fix:
>>
>> I think that IEEE-802.11-2016 should be normative because it is th= e reference
>> for 802.11-OCB and is the subject of a MUST in Section 4.2.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
>> COMMENT:
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
>>
>> These are all editorial comments:
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Section 4.4 =E2=80=94
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 For Interface Identifiers for
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IPv6 address of type 'Link-Local' are discuss= ed in Section 4.3.
>> There=E2=80=99s something wrong with that sentence.=C2=A0 Maybe it= =E2=80=99s just that the first
>>=C2=A0 word needs to be struck?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Regardless of how
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to form the IID, its length is 64 bits, as is the cas= e of the IPv6
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over Ethernet [RFC2464].
>>
>> There=E2=80=99s something wrong with this sentence too, but I don= =E2=80=99t know what the fix
>> is: I don=E2=80=99t know what the =E2=80=9Cas is the case...=E2=80= =9D part is meant to say.=C2=A0 Can you
>> try rephrasing?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 semantically opaque IIDs are needed, they MAY be gene= rated using the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 method for generating semantically opaque IIDs
>>
>> This isn=E2=80=99t wrong with the =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D, but I thi= nk it really is just a non-keyword
>> =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Section 4.5.2 =E2=80=94
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The meaning of the value "3333"
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mentioned in that section 7 of [RFC2464]
>>
>> As you=E2=80=99ve just given the section reference in the previous= sentence, I think it
>> reads better to use the context and just say, =E2=80=9CThe meaning= of the value "3333"
>> mentioned there=E2=80=9D.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Section 4.6 =E2=80=94
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of = vehicles that
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interface= s).
>>
>> At first I tried to understand what the in-vehicle interfaces had = to do with
>> the close range.=C2=A0 I think it=E2=80=99s clearer with this word= order:
>>
>> NEW
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 When vehicles are in close range, a subnet may be for= med over
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 802.11-OCB interfaces (not by their in-vehicle interf= aces).
>> END
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 An IPv6 subnet on which Neighbor Discovery protocol (= ND) can be
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mapped on an OCB network if all nodes share a single = broadcast
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Domain, which is generally the case for P2P OCB links= ;
>>
>> This isn=E2=80=99t a complete sentence: it has a subject, but no v= erb.=C2=A0 What is it
>> trying to say?=C2=A0 Also, the semicolon should be a period, as it= =E2=80=99s not useful to
>> chain it onto the following sentence.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 strict (e.g. fast drive through IP-RSU coverage)
>>
>> The =E2=80=9Ce.g.=E2=80=9D needs a comma after it (or change it to= =E2=80=9Csuch as with=E2=80=9D), and
>> =E2=80=9Cfast-drive-through=E2=80=9D needs to be hyphenated, as a = compound modifier.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Section 5 =E2=80=94
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 application-layer mechanisms are out-of-
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 scope of this document.
>>
>> Here, =E2=80=9Cout of scope=E2=80=9D should not be hyphenated (it= =E2=80=99s not a modifier).
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and performs attacks
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 without needing to physically break any wall.
>>
>> =E2=80=9Cand performs attacks=E2=80=9D shoud be =E2=80=9Cand perfo= rm attacks=E2=80=9D.
>> The =E2=80=9Cphysically break any wall=E2=80=9D part seems kind of= odd, as there are clearly no
>> physical walls involved at all.=C2=A0 What are you really trying t= o say?
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofin= g, IP address
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section = 5.1.
>>
>> What is =E2=80=9CSection 5.1=E2=80=9D about?=C2=A0 Is that meant t= o be a citation, like =E2=80=9C[Section
>> 5.1]=E2=80=9D ?
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Section 5.1 =E2=80=94
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A vehicle embarking an IP-
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 OBU whose egress interface is 802.11-OCB may expose i= tself to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 eavesdropping and subsequent correlation of data; thi= s may reveal
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 data considered private by the vehicle owner; there i= s a risk of
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 being tracked.
>>
>> It=E2=80=99s awkward to chain three sentences with semicolons.=C2= =A0 I would separate the
>> first one: change the first semicolon into a period.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as dynamically changing MAC addresses Section 5.2, se= mantically
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 opaque Interface Identifiers and stable Interface Ide= ntifiers
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 4.4.
>>
>> The two section references should be bracketed, as =E2=80=9C[Secti= on 5.2]=E2=80=9D.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Futhermore, for
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends
>>
>> Make it, =E2=80=9CFuthermore, for privacy concerns, [RFC8065] reco= mmends=E2=80=9C.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Section 5.1.1 =E2=80=94
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 means, or other visual information (car color, others= ) MAY constitute
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 privacy risks.
>>
>> This =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D should definitely be =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80= =9D: it=E2=80=99s just a statement of fact.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Section 5.2 =E2=80=94
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change = during well
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined renumbering events.
>>
>> Also a statement of fact, so =E2=80=9Cmay=E2=80=9D.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
> Associate Professor
> Department of Computer Sciences
> School of Technology
> Moulay Ismail University
> Meknes. Morocco
>
>


--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000b460e9058d67f66a-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 06:50:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8AE1201EC for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:50:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RCSFLF-KvmWD for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92A20120120 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id f4so12665017ioh.6 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:50:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LHftG1Zim/UXWHEgQaWPIyz6x29YYqWpLkGwzKxTp8M=; b=z8tb0Jb78HRdUHVAbrVwKuIpS4ax4CzfAaOfKhVIsnn7fmCD5HVwa4uIZOaO0jEpVC hmdZHcxVNkmZStfGahxt/tQFQlLeOnpS6rE1SEH7KQXKTL06Wx2QfD0u3xd/8IBVGod3 wpw7B3/00+Sg+aF8ZVjZJg+7H0cDjBePnIJh3+wErZV3lh3U6oHAFi0khtVv4AEsZvQ2 EIZg1pl2V7ScGCa4kzKShYLLu5NCVLY9Pw65jCeKbU9mRqYGNeRCPWQ9HLOoqtatWWRf tutrkDt9P3tGDBZBHkW5tgopRhEZIomWqeqZLLAP1tv3007hx4WTM6c1+DpqhGgFT+At +rNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LHftG1Zim/UXWHEgQaWPIyz6x29YYqWpLkGwzKxTp8M=; b=N9OGKE3uD8lvokJbJ0CgfbmXTdwrLmXkyt9of0mt6qGLwBnqo/+Iq46s1txFvvXy6L 27FHe09lzOSx3gqilPJObAoByVijbwpkmATkSnHCdx4DFRuoaoO8gVCB7iST+hlRYNw7 l+csrGm2cgmQ1Iou0WDncXMQPj02ent6BjS5HCPcWdCia3ctlORNjx0zyWakiv2Acw35 4resE72vO8XX9zhpFTMLrInOERUwaaWUB289BrJx/REtq4lASXW8CFC3NxOnVo1BGCwC tJqo/EajysHVhu/d7cLXUuZKKDg8XbA1hQAbVCoavs9FADoH0irIqEVxvu2SXxD1x8p8 eVqg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX9uoRH4KwrTb4+ayeHNskVtOIxbRzFbG+JeOXDCbzFm++i38hr XhS/ep8fkGVzkGXuCQkg4jovgDuXAxqZizEHyvxFnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxYGSvy5iIa/bQTKYbCBk3Wz5WeDQ4aAX6JSVjk8PvP0AAyeixjz5ZbtoEqP2ZwFT55Ll0KAyB4/2oBrphZXoE= X-Received: by 2002:a02:bb05:: with SMTP id y5mr4470736jan.93.1562853010742; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:50:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:49:59 +0100 Message-ID: To: Roman Danyliw Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008abafc058d6812d2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:50:24 -0000 --0000000000008abafc058d6812d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roman, I would like to ask you if you are convinced by my answers, or I need to do more? Thank you. On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker < noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5): > > (1) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies some t= hreats > [RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution > against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80=9D, a few > questions: > > ** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern? Which mitigations > for > them are being proposed? > > ** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and not deployed=E2=80=9D? > > (2) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the too= lbox of > the IP > security protocol designer. Some ETSI protocols related to security > protocols > in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D: > > ** Are there specific protocols to mention here? Would they be > different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of th= e > section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above that = may be > carried > out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > > ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from > [ETSI-sec-archi]? > > (3) Section 5.2. Per =E2=80=9CAn Interface ID SHOULD be of length specif= ied in > other > documents=E2=80=9D, what other documents? > > (4) Section 5.3 I=E2=80=99m having trouble following this section =E2=80= =93 is this a > discussion of a threat or mitigation? The references to Section 4.4 and > 5.0 > didn=E2=80=99t clarity this for me. > > ** What is meant by the drivers=E2=80=99 identity in this case? What is = the > pseudonym > scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being set for > it? > > ** What are the specific challenges of concern around pseudo-anonymizatio= n > approaches to which an allusion is made? > > ** Who is the trusted third parted needed? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (5) Section 1. Per =E2=80=9CThe resulting stack inherits from IPv6 over = Ethernet > [RFC2462], but operates over =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, what exactly is being in= herited? What > does > =E2=80=9Cinherited=E2=80=9D mean in this case? > > (6) Section 4.3. Per =E2=80=9CAmong these types of addresses only the IP= v6 > link-local > addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during > transition time=E2=80=9D, the meaning of the =E2=80=9Cin particular durin= g transition time > isn=E2=80=99t clear to me. > > (7) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CThe OCB operation is stripped off of =E2=80= =A6=E2=80=9D, is this > sentence > saying that OCB operations doesn=E2=80=99t use 802.11 link layer security > mechanisms, > or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link laye= r > security mechanisms? I=E2=80=99m getting caught up in the use of =E2=80= =9Cstripped off=E2=80=9D. > > (8) Section 5, Per =E2=80=9CAny attacker can therefore just sit in the ne= ar range > of > vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically break any > wall=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99d recommend revising this sentence to reflect th= at it isn=E2=80=99t just > vehicles and that active attacks are possible: > > NEW: > Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within range of = a > vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card=E2=80=99s frequency to th= e proper > range). > > (9) Section 5. What is =E2=80=9Cprotected 802.11=E2=80=9D mentioned in = =E2=80=9CSuch a link is > less > protected =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > > (10) Section 5.2. SHA256 needs a reference. > > (11) Editorial Nits > ** Table of Contents. There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C > > ** Section 1. Typo. s/Appendicies/Appendices/ > > ** Section 1. Typo. s/Concretly/Concretely/ > > ** Section 1. Editorial. s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and > [RFC2464]./ > > ** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference. > s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/ > > ** Section 4.5. Typo. s/.A A future/. A future/ > > ** Section 4.6. Typo. s/links; The/links. The/ > > ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/Futhermore/Furthermore/ > > ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/pricavy/privacy/ > > ** Section 5.2. Typo. s/admninistered/ administered/ > > ** Appendix B. s/Ammendment/Amendment/ > > ** Appendix H. Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/ > > ** Appendix I. Typo. s/specificed/specified/ > > ** Appendix I. Typo. s/Moreoever/Moreover/ > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --0000000000008abafc058d6812d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ro= man,

I would like to ask you = if you are convinced by my answers, or I need to do more?

Thank you.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 = PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <no= reply@ietf.org> wrote:
Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s= tatement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5):

(1) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies som= e threats
[RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80=9D, a few q= uestions:

** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern?=C2=A0 Which mitigatio= ns for
them are being proposed?

** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and not deployed=E2=80=9D?
(2) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the = toolbox of the IP
security protocol designer.=C2=A0 Some ETSI protocols related to security p= rotocols
in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D:

** Are there specific protocols to mention here?=C2=A0 Would they be
different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of the<= br> section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above that ma= y be carried
out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?

** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from [ETSI-sec-archi]= ?

(3) Section 5.2.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CAn Interface ID SHOULD be of length spe= cified in other
documents=E2=80=9D, what other documents?

(4) Section 5.3=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m having trouble following this section =E2= =80=93 is this a
discussion of a threat or mitigation?=C2=A0 The references to Section 4.4 a= nd 5.0
didn=E2=80=99t clarity this for me.

** What is meant by the drivers=E2=80=99 identity in this case?=C2=A0 What = is the pseudonym
scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being set for i= t?

** What are the specific challenges of concern around pseudo-anonymization<= br> approaches to which an allusion is made?

** Who is the trusted third parted needed?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(5) Section 1.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CThe resulting stack inherits from IPv6 ov= er Ethernet
[RFC2462], but operates over =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, what exactly is being inhe= rited?=C2=A0 What does
=E2=80=9Cinherited=E2=80=9D mean in this case?

(6) Section 4.3.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CAmong these types of addresses only the= IPv6 link-local
addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during transition time=E2=80=9D, the meaning of the =E2=80=9Cin particular during = transition time
isn=E2=80=99t clear to me.

(7) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CThe OCB operation is stripped off of =E2= =80=A6=E2=80=9D, is this sentence
saying that OCB operations doesn=E2=80=99t use 802.11 link layer security m= echanisms,
or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link layer<= br> security mechanisms?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m getting caught up in the use of =E2= =80=9Cstripped off=E2=80=9D.

(8) Section 5, Per =E2=80=9CAny attacker can therefore just sit in the near= range of
vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically break any wall=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99d recommend revising this sentence to reflect that= it isn=E2=80=99t just
vehicles and that active attacks are possible:

NEW:
Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within range of a<= br> vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card=E2=80=99s frequency to the = proper
range).

(9) Section 5.=C2=A0 What is =E2=80=9Cprotected 802.11=E2=80=9D mentioned i= n =E2=80=9CSuch a link is less
protected =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?

(10) Section 5.2.=C2=A0 SHA256 needs a reference.

(11) Editorial Nits
** Table of Contents.=C2=A0 There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C=

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Appendicies/Appendices/

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Concretly/Concretely/

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Editorial.=C2=A0 s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and = [RFC2464]./

** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference.
s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/

** Section 4.5.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/.A=C2=A0 A future/.=C2=A0 A future/

** Section 4.6. Typo.=C2=A0 s/links; The/links.=C2=A0 The/

** Section 5.1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Futhermore/Furthermore/

** Section 5.1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/pricavy/privacy/

** Section 5.2. Typo.=C2=A0 s/admninistered/ administered/

** Appendix B.=C2=A0 s/Ammendment/Amendment/

** Appendix H.=C2=A0 Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/

** Appendix I.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/specificed/specified/

** Appendix I. Typo.=C2=A0 s/Moreoever/Moreover/




--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--0000000000008abafc058d6812d2-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 06:52:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AC71200E0; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:52:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=Z38EglQK; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=W4TnPfUz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QRMiahVmbhAu; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7166F1200CD; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 06:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0951D405; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:52:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= from:message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; s=fm3; bh=JnKcZ2Ic/eTRDooByClIhWi HjAHhgHZZ6+AEkJAdxbs=; b=Z38EglQK3dBCVLbvqppXmqt7GJ9+yG6UA51DHUF YGUdpoPESy0qv1ozN46Qxw5KwSCQ3Kexz3ZftQNY/2F5zUsGwxzL+c/dRJcQB/RB 4GidmxUpxrvsdkXQNBxcjiKCBLpsnLL3U1viy+XOtPSyloHFkE74OGfD/765U4IW Wb+JuT02N4EOsPodCjstsVYrEVNrUfm0tq/CL/J0uzKfUComfdbeg4rBP5n92jw9 PP7XgAUclc50GcHMHrApsfOqoHMOMDqszrGMo0u3HAIKM+EDSoSqUSa426Ga4h3y zYJSs1JPu1Fch51hmJVFhTjijrliy0O1b6W/THqkRojC2sA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=JnKcZ2 Ic/eTRDooByClIhWiHjAHhgHZZ6+AEkJAdxbs=; b=W4TnPfUzky8pGBokrq3yK/ eLb1D9/TEVP5YUUyK4Wh5cv7QzQeH6H/PoPSwqbmM3Nl5zKwqS3hPF7eMP5SMHb6 l5GeyenXS4vXkSysfztywiuHND+ohQz7hdmOovrjsySoIpyTYFIlEqrwcGMpR+LU nWEgKEttrvijkceYNoUlAXwDD04ZCpmpqshGG3V5Xv271kamZnbcA0MgbdDXQpjx ptSNtrnJK3OdMizrKe65WZTjCXEYK8EMO3fFRi9AARJ6CN+6eZurU1CXIAxkIGlA 47CRFNqrigDcEafgjpRYEzuHPkKxPB/NBX2l1tV5EayMGUp+csw3Mnf3W3p9dtrw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrgeekgdejudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefhkfgtggfuffgjvfhfofesrgdtmherhhdtjeenucfhrhhomheptehlihhsshgr ucevohhophgvrhcuoegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnqeenucffohhmrghinh epihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppedujeefrdefkedruddujedrledunecurfgrrhgrmhep mhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrlhhishhsrgestghoohhpvghrfidrihhnnecuvehluhhsthgvrh fuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro2.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.91]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5900E380083; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: <2CFE579C-7625-4875-AD4A-D5C26814287D@cooperw.in> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B18C9D3C-323A-4AC6-95A7-CA2951816F70" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:52:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org To: Nabil Benamar References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:52:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B18C9D3C-323A-4AC6-95A7-CA2951816F70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Nabil, > On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >=20 > Hi Alissa, >=20 > Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker = > wrote: > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html = > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ = >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I support Roman's DISCUSS. >=20 > Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document = specifies. > I think it would help to have a clear statement about the = circumstances under > which each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC = 4941 > addresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC = 8064 have > functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle = change > subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give = recommendations for > when IIDs should be re-generated? >=20 > Here is the new text in -49 >=20 > An example of change policy is to change the MAC > address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up. This = may > help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level. Futhermore, for > pricavy concerns ([RFC8065 ]) = recommends using an address generation > scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer=20 > address. >=20 I saw this when I read the document but it doesn=E2=80=99t address my = questions above. Also in your email to Roni you mentioned other = environmental factors that might trigger a change in link-local address, = so I was hoping to see that in the document text. Thanks, Alissa > =20 > =3D Section 5.2 =3D >=20 > "An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other documents." >=20 > Isn't the length specified for each of the two IID generation = mechanisms > discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4? >=20 > We decided to remove this sentence from the text since ther is no = other document. >=20 > =3D Section 5.3 =3D >=20 > "The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' > identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias > identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality = of > messages and trust between participants" >=20 > Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I = think this is > incorrect. >=20 > I agree. >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Please expand OCB and STA on first use. >=20 > =3D Section 2 =3D >=20 > "Note: compliance with > standards and regulations set in different countries when using the > 5.9GHz frequency band is required." >=20 > I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being referenced = here, but > is there any specific reason why this needs to be said here? = Presumably users > of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with associated > regulations governing their use. It's not clear to me that it makes = sense to > note this here. >=20 > =3D Section 5.1.1 =3D >=20 > "Further > correlation of this information with other data captured by other > means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY = constitute > privacy risks." >=20 > The normative MAY is not appropriate here. >=20 > =3D Section 5.2 =3D >=20 > "In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well > defined renumbering events." >=20 > The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the = 802.11-OCB > spec). >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best Regards >=20 > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University=20 > Meknes. Morocco --Apple-Mail=_B18C9D3C-323A-4AC6-95A7-CA2951816F70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Nabil,

On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar = <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thanks again = for your review. Please see my answers below


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa = Cooper via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the = following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line = intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To = and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory = paragraph, however.)


Please = refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htmlfor more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.


The document, = along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80= 211ocb/



---------------------------------------------------------------= -------
DISCUSS:
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

I support Roman's DISCUSS.

Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties = of what this document specifies.
I think it would help to = have a clear statement about the circumstances under
which = each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941
addresses not considered because addresses generated = according to RFC 8064 have
functionally equivalent = properties given how often moving vehicle change
subnets? = For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommendations for
when IIDs should be re-generated?

Here is the new text in -49

An example of change policy is =
to change the MAC
   address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up.  This may
   help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level.  Futhermore, for
   pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends using an address =
generation
   scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed =
link-layer 
   address.


I saw this when I read the document but it = doesn=E2=80=99t address my questions above. Also in your email to Roni = you mentioned other environmental factors that might trigger a change in = link-local address, so I was hoping to see that in the document = text.

Thanks,
Alissa

 
=3D Section = 5.2 =3D

"An Interface ID SHOULD be of = length specified in other documents."

Isn't = the length specified for each of the two IID generation mechanisms
discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4?

We decided to = remove this sentence from the text since ther is no other = document.

=3D Section 5.3 =3D

"The demand = for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers'
  =  identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or = alias
   identity at the same time, may hamper = the required confidentiality of
   messages and = trust between participants"

Pseudonymity = and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I think this is
incorrect.

I agree.


---------------------------------------------------------------= -------
COMMENT:
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

Please expand OCB and STA on first = use.

=3D Section 2 =3D

"Note: compliance with
   standards = and regulations set in different countries when using the
   5.9GHz frequency band is required."

I'm not familiar with the standards and = regulations being referenced here, but
is there any = specific reason why this needs to be said here? Presumably users
of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with = associated
regulations governing their use. It's not clear = to me that it makes sense to
note this here.

=3D Section 5.1.1 =3D

"Further
   correlation of this = information with other data captured by other
  =  means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY = constitute
   privacy risks."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here.

=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"In = 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well
   defined renumbering events."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not = the 802.11-OCB
spec).




-- 

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of = Computer Sciences
School of = Technology
Moulay Ismail University 
Meknes. = Morocco
=

= --Apple-Mail=_B18C9D3C-323A-4AC6-95A7-CA2951816F70-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 07:25:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 950FE120047 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:25:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VwbF4_zDcU0h for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490AD120115 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id q22so12952781iog.4 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:25:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IQLegqd6bYdDI7TTUgwmpCvTrkScf2qOj2fORqLyysU=; b=Md0ABZBKSQ8WLoik1U9npA74BSbCzQJ7S350Pv/yAIdDGNYp7rON/G9EVrQLUPC+j2 cAt55t7Yx2I4/WFIE7GjN+iwCCymLhb/Q2X2SdqKWFBm5OSuQEoDcGpKNxMxD3TWOjlE SKu4qTRsVUpAqX5OnC26K5wr9PCs12S+R4hCxn0HxEA6dQaFhX+JKIaO5Flw5/BydCMu e4j0imiYmOYavnOdcjCt5Q3bDTyKEAf7bHCv0JOhTGVyOVCnYYvIiiHHjlsUAudk766Q bNXLWIXnUltLXLL4TYlgLPGmufY0jnoBR3VZxIgQp902gkelCsYlqeEGVvmGb1ZRnfLv DiBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IQLegqd6bYdDI7TTUgwmpCvTrkScf2qOj2fORqLyysU=; b=AAqSZeSDd+KvPd4MF88LlnhriHv27bOOCw7Z4ZWCkGiVs/MlUPdXBGKWFAB5L6zj/o btT7vRWQN6TeLY8wPMQTFjrSPdYtEwFxmTUSWINnQ0QBmcSKNCB857TbJQFyr8OKr3TD pt1KkCaLlHSRSSHYgEA6VSwA2A287pcKWoaBOTBQsxZnm+GxZ5jXO5MB2VPXWK0Mkqi2 QU7ZnRQty/vyjhmgrihtUNQAEFzPmI91gmY1ODcE3RHGEM69slLWdLf4MtiqcH2Ur1dS JaAw5AiaCcJojbZCkITmkF+yD8ejOmHZnW9M4rM6osnhlUJ14eXj3dIO5bk51wYz7WMu FrJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWcMbGSWBWUG0uUaGF6Vkt7k+XmAXDYbPR3lrLGoQLKkO4OBpWq XiZx8ZEqIk4k+zEVO23CzPbnN+cy8OOK4YLrAayh2w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzTKty0KIIoJ72ASDOd1sc9Mn/s9uE94MDsAGnw3UZ5a3Q7Yuh7OWf/2OguyBNXEnnp8otXjQH5WTi1MME/r5o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:149:: with SMTP id y9mr4952998jao.76.1562855143497; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 07:25:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2CFE579C-7625-4875-AD4A-D5C26814287D@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: <2CFE579C-7625-4875-AD4A-D5C26814287D@cooperw.in> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:25:31 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper , NABIL BENAMAR Cc: IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a9f612058d6891e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:25:50 -0000 --000000000000a9f612058d6891e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alissa, Are you referring to this text that may be added to the document? "However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can leak the presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, if the same interface identifier is used with different prefixes as a device/vehicle moves between different networks." On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:52 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > Hi Nabil, > > On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > >> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I support Roman's DISCUSS. >> >> Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document >> specifies. >> I think it would help to have a clear statement about the circumstances >> under >> which each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC 49= 41 >> addresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC >> 8064 have >> functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle change >> subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommendation= s >> for >> when IIDs should be re-generated? >> >> Here is the new text in -49 > > An example of change policy is to change the MAC > address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up. This may > help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level. Futhermore, for > pricavy concerns ([RFC8065 ]) rec= ommends using an address generation > scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer > > address. > > > I saw this when I read the document but it doesn=E2=80=99t address my que= stions > above. Also in your email to Roni you mentioned other environmental facto= rs > that might trigger a change in link-local address, so I was hoping to see > that in the document text. > > Thanks, > Alissa > > > >> =3D Section 5.2 =3D >> >> "An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other documents." >> >> Isn't the length specified for each of the two IID generation mechanisms >> discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4? >> > > We decided to remove this sentence from the text since ther is no other > document. > >> >> =3D Section 5.3 =3D >> >> "The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' >> identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias >> identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality of >> messages and trust between participants" >> >> Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I think >> this is >> incorrect. >> > > I agree. > >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Please expand OCB and STA on first use. >> >> =3D Section 2 =3D >> >> "Note: compliance with >> standards and regulations set in different countries when using the >> 5.9GHz frequency band is required." >> >> I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being referenced >> here, but >> is there any specific reason why this needs to be said here? Presumably >> users >> of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with associated >> regulations governing their use. It's not clear to me that it makes sens= e >> to >> note this here. >> >> =3D Section 5.1.1 =3D >> >> "Further >> correlation of this information with other data captured by other >> means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute >> privacy risks." >> >> The normative MAY is not appropriate here. >> >> =3D Section 5.2 =3D >> >> "In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well >> defined renumbering events." >> >> The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the >> 802.11-OCB >> spec). >> >> >> > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000a9f612058d6891e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Al= issa,

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:#0b5394">Are you referring to th= is text that may be added to the document?


"However, there are some specifi= cities related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of the same Link= -Local Address over time can leak the presence of the same vehicle in multi= ple places.=C2=A0Location tracking, if the same interface identifier is used with=C2=A0different prefixes= as a device/vehicle moves between different networks."

On= Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:52 PM Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
Hi Nab= il,

On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM,= Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below


On Wed, Jul 10= , 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered th= e following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49:= Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and re= ply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free t= o cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to<= span class=3D"gmail-m_-5202159022061081192Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/disc= uss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMEN= T positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, ca= n be found here:
https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/


----------------------------------------------------------------------=
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------= -----------

I support Roman's DISCUSS.

Overall I am uncle= ar on the privacy properties of what this document specifies.
I think it= would help to have a clear statement about the circumstances under
whic= h each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941
a= ddresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC 8064 h= ave
functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle ch= ange
subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommend= ations for
when IIDs should be re-generated?

Here is the new t= ext in -49

An example of change policy is to change the MAC
   address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up.  This may
   help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level.  Futhermore, for
   pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends using an address generation
   scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0address.


I saw this when I read = the document but it doesn=E2=80=99t address my questions above. Also in you= r email to Roni you mentioned other environmental factors that might trigge= r a change in link-local address, so I was hoping to see that in the docume= nt text.

Thanks,
Alissa

=C2=A0
=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"An Interface ID SHOULD be of length speci= fied in other documents."

Isn't the length specified for ea= ch of the two IID generation mechanisms
discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4= ?

We decided to remove this sentence from the text since th= er is no other document.

=3D Section 5.3 =3D

"The demand for privacy protection= of vehicles' and drivers'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identities, which could = be granted by using a pseudonym or alias
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identity at the sa= me time, may hamper the required confidentiality of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0message= s and trust between participants"

Pseudonymity and confidential= ity are not mutually exclusive, so I think this is
incorrect.

I agree.

<= br>----------------------------------------------------------------------COMMENT:
-------------------------------------------------------------= ---------

Please expand OCB and STA on first use.

=3D Section= 2 =3D

"Note: compliance with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standards and reg= ulations set in different countries when using the
=C2=A0 =C2=A05.9GHz f= requency band is required."

I'm not familiar with the stand= ards and regulations being referenced here, but
is there any specific re= ason why this needs to be said here? Presumably users
of regulated spect= rum bands the world over must comply with associated
regulations governi= ng their use. It's not clear to me that it makes sense to
note this = here.

=3D Section 5.1.1 =3D

"Further
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cor= relation of this information with other data captured by other
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0privacy risks."

The normative MAY is not appro= priate here.

=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"In 802.11-OCB networks= , the MAC addresses MAY change during well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined renumber= ing events."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since t= his is not the 802.11-OCB
spec).




--=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer S= ciences
School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco
<= /div>



--
=

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Co= mputer Sciences
School of Technology
<= font color=3D"#0b5394">Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
= Meknes. Morocco


=
--000000000000a9f612058d6891e5-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 08:51:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2229712015B for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:51:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q7p0G_GZ2DUA for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AD12120277 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42C4300ABC for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:32:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id XXi8_3kaWG1m for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (unknown [138.88.156.37]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6020B300464; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_ED84F1C0-CE86-44E4-9144-CB7C7D3568E1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:51:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: IESG , its To: Mirja Kuehlewind , Nabil Benamar References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:51:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ED84F1C0-CE86-44E4-9144-CB7C7D3568E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale be = provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. =20 Russ > On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney = wrote: >=20 > Hi All: >=20 > I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's important = to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated = spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC = regulations require that such safety communications have access priority = over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would be = cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >=20 > Best Regards, > John >=20 > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: > Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 > > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > >=20 > > Hi Mirja, > >=20 > > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views = were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid = confusion. > >=20 > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = > wrote: > > Hi Nabil, > >=20 > > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you = _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that = is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you = further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? > >=20 > > Mirja > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > > >=20 > > > Hi Mirja, > > >=20 > > > Thank you for your review and comments. > > >=20 > > > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively = on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy = Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. > > >=20 > > > Here is what we got from them: > > >=20 > > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with = =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and = leave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 = specification. > > >=20 > > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a = binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value = is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For = example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 = bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority = information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially = subject to change..=20 > > >=20 > > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 = Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of = 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the = behavior required by the user. For example, the following text: > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field = in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value = of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of = the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority = 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D=20 > > >=20 > > > could be replaced by: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Thanks again. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker > wrote: > > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > >=20 > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html = > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: > > > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ = > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > DISCUSS: > > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >=20 > > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in = the TSV-ART > > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > > >=20 > > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > > 'Background' user priority." > > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the = assumption here > > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less = important than > > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping = document and should > > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it = would need to be > > > spelled out). > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > COMMENT: > > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >=20 > > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was = somehow deemed > > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed = into the > > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in = this document > > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as = they seem to > > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. > > >=20 > > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. = A future > > > improvement/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > >=20 > > > Best Regards > > >=20 > > > Nabil Benamar > > > Associate Professor > > > Department of Computer Sciences > > > School of Technology > > > Moulay Ismail University=20 > > > Meknes. Morocco > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > >=20 > > Best Regards > >=20 > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University=20 > > Meknes. Morocco > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its = >=20 >=20 > --=20 > John Kenney > Director and Sr. Principal Researcher > Toyota InfoTech Labs > 465 Bernardo Avenue > Mountain View, CA 94043 > Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 --Apple-Mail=_ED84F1C0-CE86-44E4-9144-CB7C7D3568E1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale be = provided:

   The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are = immediately preceded by
   a Logical Link = Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header.  In the LLC
   header, and in accordance with the EtherType = Protocol Discrimination
   (EPD, see = Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to
   0x86DD (IPv6).  The mapping to the 802.11 = data service MUST use a
   'priority' = value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving
   higher priority values for safety-critical and = time-sensitive
   traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. =   

Russ


On Jul = 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney <jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com> wrote:

Hi All:

I = have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's important to = remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated spectrum = with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC regulations = require that such safety communications have access priority over other = communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] .  I would be = cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety = communications.

Best Regards,
John

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
Thanks. Removing this text entirely = is a good option.

Mirja


> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:
>
> Hi Mirja,
>
> Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views = were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid = confusion.
>
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
> Hi Nabil,
>
> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you = _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that = is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you = further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement?
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
> > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mirja,
> >
> > Thank you for your review and comments.
> >
> > You raised a very important point that was discussed = extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks = to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this = point.
> >
> > Here is what we got from them:
> >
> > .  Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted = with =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), = and leave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 = specification.
> >
> > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not = a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header = value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 = specification.  For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID = field is specified to be 4 bits in the header.  The use of these 4 = bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal specification = of 802.11 and potentially subject to change..
> >
> > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std = 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.  This clause intentionally abstracts the = exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing = specifically the behavior required by the user.  For example, the = following text:
> >
> > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype = sub-field in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); = the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control = field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.  User = Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D
> >
> > could be replaced by:
> >
> >
> > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks again.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position = for
> > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply = to all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to = cut this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80= 211ocb/
> >
> >
> >
> > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > DISCUSS:
> > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented = in the TSV-ART
> > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):
> >
> > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a
> >    'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of = QoS with a
> >    'Background' user priority."
> > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the = assumption here
> > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less = important than
> > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping = document and should
> > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it = would need to be
> > spelled out).
> >
> >
> > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that = was somehow deemed
> > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed = into the
> > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed = in this document
> > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, = especially as they seem to
> > have received less review and therefore have more nits.
> >
> > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A  A future improvement/in = OCB mode. A future
> > improvement/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Nabil Benamar
> > Associate Professor
> > Department of Computer Sciences
> > School of Technology
> > Moulay Ismail University
> > Meknes. Morocco
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best Regards
>
> Nabil Benamar
> Associate Professor
> Department of Computer Sciences
> School of Technology
> Moulay Ismail University
> Meknes. Morocco
>
>

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
John Kenney
Director and Sr. Principal Researcher
Toyota InfoTech Labs
465 Bernardo Avenue
Mountain View, CA 94043
Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: = 650-224-6644

= --Apple-Mail=_ED84F1C0-CE86-44E4-9144-CB7C7D3568E1-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 08:58:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB6B1203E8; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:58:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U22LxLeRX4Mg; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E7D112039E; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [46.183.103.8] (helo=[172.18.209.93]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hlbSL-0003j5-Qe; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:58:04 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:57:20 +0200 Cc: Nabil Benamar , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> To: Russ Housley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1562860688;4e954c6a; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hlbSL-0003j5-Qe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:58:23 -0000 Hi Russ, This would also be good and address my discuss. However, IP is not = really a specific service and I could well imagine that in future there = could also be a more critical service that is implemented over IP (for = whatever reason). To leave this as generic as possible, which I think a = mapping document should be, I would recommend to us SHOULD or no = normative language at all. Mirja > On 11. Jul 2019, at 17:51, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 > I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale = be provided: >=20 > The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded = by > a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the = LLC > header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination > (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving > higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. =20 >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi All: >>=20 >> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's = important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public = regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, = FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would = be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>=20 >> Best Regards, >> John >>=20 >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>=20 >> Mirja >>=20 >>=20 >> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >> >=20 >> > Hi Mirja, >> >=20 >> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views = were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid = confusion. >> >=20 >> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >> > Hi Nabil, >> >=20 >> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you = _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that = is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you = further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? >> >=20 >> > Mirja >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >> > >=20 >> > > Hi Mirja, >> > >=20 >> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >> > >=20 >> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively = on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy = Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. >> > >=20 >> > > Here is what we got from them: >> > >=20 >> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with = =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and = leave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 = specification. >> > >=20 >> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a = binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value = is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For = example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 = bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority = information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially = subject to change..=20 >> > >=20 >> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std = 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact = details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing = specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, the = following text: >> > >=20 >> > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field = in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value = of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of = the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority = 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D=20 >> > >=20 >> > > could be replaced by: >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D=20 >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > Thanks again. >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker wrote: >> > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position = for >> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >> > >=20 >> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all >> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to = cut this >> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: >> > > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > DISCUSS: >> > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >=20 >> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in = the TSV-ART >> > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >> > >=20 >> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >> > > 'Background' user priority." >> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the = assumption here >> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less = important than >> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping = document and should >> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it = would need to be >> > > spelled out). >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > COMMENT: >> > > = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >=20 >> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was = somehow deemed >> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed = into the >> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in = this document >> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially = as they seem to >> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >> > >=20 >> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. = A future >> > > improvement/ >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> > > --=20 >> > >=20 >> > > Best Regards >> > >=20 >> > > Nabil Benamar >> > > Associate Professor >> > > Department of Computer Sciences >> > > School of Technology >> > > Moulay Ismail University=20 >> > > Meknes. Morocco >> > >=20 >> > >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > --=20 >> >=20 >> > Best Regards >> >=20 >> > Nabil Benamar >> > Associate Professor >> > Department of Computer Sciences >> > School of Technology >> > Moulay Ismail University=20 >> > Meknes. Morocco >> >=20 >> >=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> John Kenney >> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >> Toyota InfoTech Labs >> 465 Bernardo Avenue >> Mountain View, CA 94043 >> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >=20 From nobody Thu Jul 11 11:31:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B0A1200D7; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:31:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.98.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <156286990273.11990.15545948200911536491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:31:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Benjamin Kaduk's No Record on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:31:43 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: No Record When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Remaining at No Record since I am balloting late, but: It may be worth noting in the privacy/security considerations that an attacker may not heed to legal limits for radio power and can use a very sensitive directional antenna; if the attacker wishes to attack a given exchange they do not necessarily need to be in close physical proximity. 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MARCHAND.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.251]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 21:50:51 -0400 From: Roman Danyliw To: Nabil Benamar CC: The IESG , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org" , Carlos Bernardos , "ipwave-chairs@ietf.org" , "its@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHVNpF/33hAh0jHH02D3kgWd/IptqbD/WyAgAItfLA= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 01:50:50 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33CE293@marchand> References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33CE293marchand_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on 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(2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GtlmZqUHvETr for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F5721200F8 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id k20so17631112ios.10 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:00:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ePDqRbgJ5Xz10w7vUnmN/v6STRwJAVB1CYy/f2YNpN8=; b=ife0pTqiKHaTPiJ6XxYNVSTRvJHbehyHOQ22IvN7/uXJBpWopM8vYEKlKWTNEFWqe5 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyfqXuaQp9GKayz6QNPU2Gzxe2gAGy0dslCbm6d80BvXLt/X8+O31WkeypZ2IlqmAxHtjFssQBVFtXXPBXo/9I= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8890:: with SMTP id d16mr8292787ioo.274.1562907634427; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:00:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33CE293@marchand> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33CE293@marchand> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:00:58 +0100 Message-ID: To: Roman Danyliw Cc: IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , "ipwave-chairs@ietf.org" , "its@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e003b058d74ca5f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:00:42 -0000 --0000000000005e003b058d74ca5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roman, Thank you for your review. I agree on the text you added, and the parts that should be removed. I will update the draft as soon as the window is opened. I guess during Montreal meeting. Thanks again. Yours. On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 02:50 Roman Danyliw wrote: > > > > > *From:* Nabil Benamar [mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma] > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:37 AM > *To:* Roman Danyliw > *Cc:* The IESG ; > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org; Carlos Bernardos < > cjbc@it.uc3m.es>; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org; its@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: Roman Danyliw's Discuss on > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > > > Hi Roman, > > > > Thank you for your detailed review. Let me start with the 'DISCUSS' > comments. > > > > Please see my answers below. > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5): > > (1) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies some t= hreats > [RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution > against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80=9D, a few > questions: > > ** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern? Which mitigations > for > them are being proposed? > > Since there is no Layer 2 security in OCB, anyone can join the same subne= t and impersonate any only else, to source traffic and get the traffic back= . > > > > [Roman] In this case, perhaps something more precise could be said: > > > > OLD: > > The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP address > > and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section 5.1. A previous > > work at SAVI WG identifies some threats [RFC6959], while SeND > > presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution against address > > theft but it is complex and not deployed. > > > > NEW: > > When using OCB, no layer 2 security is provided. Therefore, any node can= join a subnet, directly communicate with any nodes on the subset to includ= e potentially impersonating another node. This design allows for a number = of threats outlined in Section 3 of [RFC6959]. While not widely deployed, = SeND [RFC3971] [RFC3972] is a solution that can address =E2=80=9D > > END > > > > There is no mitigation in this specification because it is limited to RFC= 4861 and 4862 and SeND is not available in the current stacks. > > > > ** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and not deployed=E2=80=9D? > > > > This was informational because it may be the only pertinent remediation. > > > > > (2) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the too= lbox of > the IP > security protocol designer. Some ETSI protocols related to security > protocols > in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D: > > ** Are there specific protocols to mention here? Would they be > different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of th= e > section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above that = may be > carried > out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > > ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from > [ETSI-sec-archi]? > > > > This sentence is just informational. I propose to remove the whole > sentence. > > > > [Roman] That works for me. > > > > > (3) Section 5.2. Per =E2=80=9CAn Interface ID SHOULD be of length specif= ied in > other > documents=E2=80=9D, what other documents? > > I'm afraid no other documents as mentioned by Alex in its reply. To be > removed. > > > > [Roman] Removing the text works for me. > > > > Thanks, > > Roman > > > > > (4) Section 5.3 I=E2=80=99m having trouble following this section =E2=80= =93 is this a > discussion of a threat or mitigation? The references to Section 4.4 and > 5.0 > didn=E2=80=99t clarity this for me. > > ** What is meant by the drivers=E2=80=99 identity in this case? What is = the > pseudonym > scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being set for > it? > > ** What are the specific challenges of concern around pseudo-anonymizatio= n > approaches to which an allusion is made? > > ** Who is the trusted third parted needed? > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (5) Section 1. Per =E2=80=9CThe resulting stack inherits from IPv6 over = Ethernet > [RFC2462], but operates over =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, what exactly is being in= herited? What > does > =E2=80=9Cinherited=E2=80=9D mean in this case? > > (6) Section 4.3. Per =E2=80=9CAmong these types of addresses only the IP= v6 > link-local > addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during > transition time=E2=80=9D, the meaning of the =E2=80=9Cin particular durin= g transition time > isn=E2=80=99t clear to me. > > (7) Section 5. Per =E2=80=9CThe OCB operation is stripped off of =E2=80= =A6=E2=80=9D, is this > sentence > saying that OCB operations doesn=E2=80=99t use 802.11 link layer security > mechanisms, > or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link laye= r > security mechanisms? I=E2=80=99m getting caught up in the use of =E2=80= =9Cstripped off=E2=80=9D. > > (8) Section 5, Per =E2=80=9CAny attacker can therefore just sit in the ne= ar range > of > vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically break any > wall=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99d recommend revising this sentence to reflect th= at it isn=E2=80=99t just > vehicles and that active attacks are possible: > > NEW: > Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within range of = a > vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card=E2=80=99s frequency to th= e proper > range). > > (9) Section 5. What is =E2=80=9Cprotected 802.11=E2=80=9D mentioned in = =E2=80=9CSuch a link is > less > protected =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D? > > (10) Section 5.2. SHA256 needs a reference. > > (11) Editorial Nits > ** Table of Contents. There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C > > ** Section 1. Typo. s/Appendicies/Appendices/ > > ** Section 1. Typo. s/Concretly/Concretely/ > > ** Section 1. Editorial. s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and > [RFC2464]./ > > ** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference. > s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/ > > ** Section 4.5. Typo. s/.A A future/. A future/ > > ** Section 4.6. Typo. s/links; The/links. The/ > > ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/Futhermore/Furthermore/ > > ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/pricavy/privacy/ > > ** Section 5.2. Typo. s/admninistered/ administered/ > > ** Appendix B. s/Ammendment/Amendment/ > > ** Appendix H. Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/ > > ** Appendix I. Typo. s/specificed/specified/ > > ** Appendix I. Typo. s/Moreoever/Moreover/ > > > > > -- > > > Best Regards > > > > Nabil Benamar > > Associate Professor > > Department of Computer Sciences > > School of Technology > > Moulay Ismail University > > Meknes. Morocco > > > > > --0000000000005e003b058d74ca5f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Roman,

Thank you for your review.

I agree on the text you added, and the parts t= hat should be removed.

I= will update the draft as soon as the window is opened. I guess during Mont= real meeting.


=
Thanks again.



Yours.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, 02:50 Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Nabil Benamar [mailto:n.= benamar@est.umi.ac.ma]
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 7:37 AM
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; draft-= ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org; Carlos Bernardos <cjbc@it.uc= 3m.es>; ipwave-chairs@ietf.org; its@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-o= ver-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

=C2=A0

Hi Roman,

=C2=A0

Thank you for your det= ailed review. Let me start with the 'DISCUSS' comments.

=C2=A0

Please see my answers = below.

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:03 PM Roman Danyliw via Dat= atracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot posit= ion for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A few items per the text in the Security Considerations (Section 5):

(1) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CA previous work at SAVI WG identifies som= e threats
[RFC6959], while SeND presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972] is a solution against address theft but it is complex and not deployed.=E2=80=9D, a few q= uestions:

** What specific threats from RFC6959 are of concern?=C2=A0 Which mitigatio= ns for
them are being proposed?

Since there is no Layer 2 security in OCB, anyone can join the same subne=
t and impersonate any only else, to source traffic and get the traffic back=
. 
=C2=A0
[Roman] In this case, perhaps something more precise co=
uld be said:
=C2=A0
OLD:
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The potential attack vectors are: MAC addr=
ess spoofing, IP address
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and session hijacking, and privacy v=
iolation Section 5.1.=C2=A0 A previous
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 work at SAVI WG identifies some thre=
ats [RFC6959], while SeND
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 presented in [RFC3971] and [RFC3972]=
 is a solution against address
=C2=A0=C2=A0 theft but it is complex and not deployed.<=
u>
=C2=A0
NEW:
When using OCB, no layer 2 security is provided.=C2=A0 =
Therefore, any node can join a subnet, directly communicate with any nodes =
on the subset to include potentially impersonating another node.=C2=A0 This=
 design allows for a number of threats outlined in Section 3 of [RFC6959].=
=C2=A0 While not widely deployed, SeND [RFC3971] [RFC3972] is a solution th=
at can address <insert qualifying statements on which subset of the thre=
ats in Section 3>=E2=80=9D
END
=C2=A0
There is no mitigation i=
n this specification because it is limited to RFC 4861 and 4862 and SeND is=
 not available in the current stacks.

=C2=A0

** Why mention SeND if it is =E2=80=9Ccomplex and no= t deployed=E2=80=9D?

=C2=A0

This was informational= because it may be the only pertinent remediation.

=C2=A0


(2) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CMore IETF protocols are available in the = toolbox of the IP
security protocol designer.=C2=A0 Some ETSI protocols related to security p= rotocols
in ITS are described in [ETSI-sec-archi].=E2=80=9D:

** Are there specific protocols to mention here?=C2=A0 Would they be
different/OCB-specific than what was already noted in the beginning of the<= br> section -- =E2=80=9CAny security mechanism as the IP layer or above that ma= y be carried
out =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?

** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from [ETSI-sec-archi]= ?

=C2=A0

This sentence is just = informational. I propose to remove the whole sentence.=

=C2=A0

[Roman] That works for me.<= /u>

=C2=A0


(3) Section 5.2.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CAn Interface ID SHOULD be of length spe= cified in other
documents=E2=80=9D, what other documents?

I'm afraid no other documents as mentioned = by Alex in its reply. To be removed.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[Roman] Removing the text works for m= e.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Roman

=C2=A0


(4) Section 5.3=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m having trouble following this section =E2= =80=93 is this a
discussion of a threat or mitigation?=C2=A0 The references to Section 4.4 a= nd 5.0
didn=E2=80=99t clarity this for me.

** What is meant by the drivers=E2=80=99 identity in this case?=C2=A0 What = is the pseudonym
scheme is being used to protect it or what requirements are being set for i= t?

** What are the specific challenges of concern around pseudo-anonymization<= br> approaches to which an allusion is made?

** Who is the trusted third parted needed?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(5) Section 1.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CThe resulting stack inherits from IPv6 ov= er Ethernet
[RFC2462], but operates over =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, what exactly is being inhe= rited?=C2=A0 What does
=E2=80=9Cinherited=E2=80=9D mean in this case?

(6) Section 4.3.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CAmong these types of addresses only the= IPv6 link-local
addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during transition time=E2=80=9D, the meaning of the =E2=80=9Cin particular during = transition time
isn=E2=80=99t clear to me.

(7) Section 5.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CThe OCB operation is stripped off of =E2= =80=A6=E2=80=9D, is this sentence
saying that OCB operations doesn=E2=80=99t use 802.11 link layer security m= echanisms,
or does the OCB operation actively remove (i.e., strips) 802.11 link layer<= br> security mechanisms?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m getting caught up in the use of =E2= =80=9Cstripped off=E2=80=9D.

(8) Section 5, Per =E2=80=9CAny attacker can therefore just sit in the near= range of
vehicles ... and performs attacks without needing to physically break any wall=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99d recommend revising this sentence to reflect that= it isn=E2=80=99t just
vehicles and that active attacks are possible:

NEW:
Therefore, an attacker can sniff or inject traffic while within range of a<= br> vehicle or IP-RSU (by setting an interface card=E2=80=99s frequency to the = proper
range).

(9) Section 5.=C2=A0 What is =E2=80=9Cprotected 802.11=E2=80=9D mentioned i= n =E2=80=9CSuch a link is less
protected =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D?

(10) Section 5.2.=C2=A0 SHA256 needs a reference.

(11) Editorial Nits
** Table of Contents.=C2=A0 There is odd spacing in the title of Appendix C=

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Appendicies/Appendices/

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Concretly/Concretely/

** Section 1.=C2=A0 Editorial.=C2=A0 s/[RFC1042], [RFC2464] ./[RFC1042 and = [RFC2464]./

** Multiple sections. Editorial, to make an RFC citation a reference.
s/RFC2464/[RFC2464]/ and s/RFC 7217/[RFC7217]/

** Section 4.5.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/.A=C2=A0 A future/.=C2=A0 A future/

** Section 4.6. Typo.=C2=A0 s/links; The/links.=C2=A0 The/

** Section 5.1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/Futhermore/Furthermore/

** Section 5.1.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/pricavy/privacy/

** Section 5.2. Typo.=C2=A0 s/admninistered/ administered/

** Appendix B.=C2=A0 s/Ammendment/Amendment/

** Appendix H.=C2=A0 Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/

** Appendix I.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/specificed/specified/

** Appendix I. Typo.=C2=A0 s/Moreoever/Moreover/


=C2=A0

--


Best Regards

=C2=A0=

Nabil = Benamar

Associ= ate Professor

Depart= ment of Computer Sciences<= /u>

School= of Technology<= /p>

Moulay= Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0=

Meknes= . Morocco

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

--0000000000005e003b058d74ca5f-- From nobody Thu Jul 11 22:05:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3381200F8; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:04:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_NO_HELO_DNS=1.295, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fkye1_CPSzV; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCEDF1200C3; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id b17so5574586lff.7; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:04:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fNIDY+TWDpUhdbP4iep3GvcXAinRIzVUjrckhlJlBmY=; b=f3pqpJU0Q068pAZUC9AzTiaU6Kc0mKfhHcBGLhA4BSNeRSIZIOUBXrpnGugEM5qlJe SWoeiISvu1nKChcJdFP/wj5JuB0mVsEHVflGYpF4ElpltXub0xDKvjbfAig/99BBgOpi NkN1TMZ+XGNwwz96d7S1uUw3f+T3ypcfk6IUWSHgrINq+66f+3oSFpPicLvMTT0UXWQ9 rsY9bY8Zf1+9AYS+93thi2XjRDUwkSER4LBhhcAtcxSQ8v5+85tp4R/n1MhiH9WSIgOz vnIjAeDRyqwSH4oWuBaIVWkHs0QaLX/mbuKTdbIb/LCAd9h7D8CCv0i8itklC9CIimts noeA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fNIDY+TWDpUhdbP4iep3GvcXAinRIzVUjrckhlJlBmY=; b=iQ0b+L/y3705oiJQbnCpZE58eFCOszAcux3CURptxdhqwj2XCL4Z5APlBRUzqpBqBi f4yaw/ytUDjUcoRDYfLAszmeI8gvrCycfRVxSWsvdUDhlMxl1HxYw7G9n5Uwvz2O8/x0 9xYA0ux0/Mtomk21j+aV8iqX6XpGTjelQ2nK+TDloOfRBz2ou1lZAM3rPPGF6T0D0D3x NypnWvr498nSiF/E+cN4325fXG1G288sw5AzY5thhY9c7PfshZV4dxGet/F7J9tqU6aA z1SrSN/jlvpa3ngKqvSLrZMcf64zHFZXK88iloNmHBghsAc/xslyz5lvWIBLFM+2ZMQx dWrA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV4hjbCQ2f/MrtIc0IFuhl2Zrey5Nqh5SPAkt4cT7sDI0oNeygI gRlNYuxWIbu8jihoxd4kORTZhjD52+QvZZBAsWg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwwL2neHn9VPvV2q8mhaECaiz/6/kzkAhj/4f764cHZQfPJFDtNO8VjBUXhWDjxPvYaxh2hnW0HBYHGx1HfJHw= X-Received: by 2002:a19:6e41:: with SMTP id q1mr3756874lfk.20.1562907894926; Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:04:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156286990273.11990.15545948200911536491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <156286990273.11990.15545948200911536491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:05:18 +0100 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, ipwave-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4d1e1058d74d921" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Benjamin Kaduk's No Record on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:04:59 -0000 --000000000000e4d1e1058d74d921 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Benjamin, Definitely true. An attacker may use something outside the permitted frequency range. I will update the draft soon. On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 19:31 Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: No Record > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Remaining at No Record since I am balloting late, but: > > It may be worth noting in the privacy/security considerations that an > attacker > may not heed to legal limits for radio power and can use a very sensitive > directional antenna; if the attacker wishes to attack a given exchange > they do > not necessarily need to be in close physical proximity. > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --000000000000e4d1e1058d74d921 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Benjamin,


Definitely true. An attacker may use something= outside the permitted frequency range.


I will update the draft soon.

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 19:31 Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot p= osition for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: No Record

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf= .org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker= .ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Remaining at No Record since I am balloting late, but:

It may be worth noting in the privacy/security considerations that an attac= ker
may not heed to legal limits for radio power and can use a very sensitive directional antenna; if the attacker wishes to attack a given exchange they= do
not necessarily need to be in close physical proximity.


_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ie= tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
--000000000000e4d1e1058d74d921-- From nobody Fri Jul 12 02:47:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E71412033A for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:47:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oOI89SrnNnGO for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5267612019F for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6C9lOIM009620 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:47:24 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F43F203D23 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6459D203D89 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:47:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6C9lOmL001149 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:47:24 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156286990273.11990.15545948200911536491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <0cffecbc-aac1-68d5-ea4f-a3829d9fb3de@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:47:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <156286990273.11990.15545948200911536491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Benjamin Kaduk's No Record on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:47:28 -0000 Le 11/07/2019 à 20:31, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker a écrit : > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: No Record > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Remaining at No Record since I am balloting late, but: > > It may be worth noting in the privacy/security considerations that an attacker > may not heed to legal limits for radio power and can use a very sensitive > directional antenna; if the attacker wishes to attack a given exchange they do > not necessarily need to be in close physical proximity. I agree. Alex > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Fri Jul 12 02:50:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619D612041A for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:50:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c_YwLiV6CvTp for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F3D4120103 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 02:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6C9oRZH125594 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:50:27 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 048BD203D60 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:50:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0799203D46 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:50:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6C9oKYJ003175 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:50:20 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156286990273.11990.15545948200911536491.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:50:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Benjamin Kaduk's No Record on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:50:33 -0000 Le 12/07/2019 à 07:05, Nabil Benamar a écrit : > Hi Benjamin, > > > Definitely true. An attacker may use something outside the permitted > frequency range. I am not correcting anybody. But I agree with the original point that a highly sophisticated antenna, more directinal, more sensitive electonics, may allow attacker to listen and write to cars, from a relatively longer distance, without using illegal stronger power levels, but still staying with the permitted frequency range. It is a matter of how much effort and wit an attacker can put into it. Alex > > > I will update the draft soon. > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 19:31 Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker > > wrote: > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: No Record > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to > https://www.ietf..org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker..ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Remaining at No Record since I am balloting late, but: > > It may be worth noting in the privacy/security considerations that > an attacker > may not heed to legal limits for radio power and can use a very > sensitive > directional antenna; if the attacker wishes to attack a given > exchange they do > not necessarily need to be in close physical proximity. > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Fri Jul 12 03:10:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2849F1202BD for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:10:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yiZK7PXBD_rR for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58CB11202B5 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 03:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CAAiHd002423 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:10:44 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8EAB3203E01 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:10:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825B3203DFC for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:10:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CAAiW8021628 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:10:44 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156281766686.15253.17107868671965711674.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:10:44 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 10:10:49 -0000 I would like to reply to a few points. Le 11/07/2019 à 15:36, Barry Leiba a écrit : [...] >>> — Section 4.4 — >>> >>> For Interface Identifiers for >>> IPv6 address of type 'Link-Local' are discussed in Section 4.3. >>> There’s something wrong with that sentence. Maybe it’s just that the first >>> word needs to be struck? You suggest to remove 'IPv6' from 'IPv6 address' and so become 'address of type LL ...'. I tend to agree with you, because all there is to be is IP. IPv4 is dying out and so we are left only with IPv6, which so becomes IP, and so becomes the only assumed kind of 'address'. But this is a matter of stance. Such a stance could have been taken throughout the document. It was however difficult to write it so everywhere. For example, as much as LL addresses can be both IPv4 and IPv6, ULA addresses are only IPv6. The approximate equivalent of ULA in IPv4 is publicly unroutable addresses (also called 'private', or 'NAT') and the 'shared address space' (also called CGN NAT, like 100.64.0.0/10). Neither NAT nor shared address space are the equivalent of ULA. And so it is difficult to think that an address type is present in both versions of IP, and so just say 'IP', and so just assume that 'address' is an 'IPv6 address'. As such it was difficult to take this stance throughout the document. The title contents was even a more difficult situation: 'IPv6 over OCB' vs 'IP over OCB' was considered, but there is much IPv4 over OCB try, so it would be difficult to assume only IPv6 is there. But, of course, if there is another direction that needs to be taken about striking out this IP word (make it disappear from that place), then I agree. >>> Regardless of how >>> to form the IID, its length is 64 bits, as is the case of the IPv6 >>> over Ethernet [RFC2464]. >>> >>> There’s something wrong with this sentence too, but I don’t know what the fix >>> is: I don’t know what the “as is the case...” part is meant to say. Can you >>> try rephrasing? It is meant to say that RFC2464 defines the prefix length on Ethernet to be 64, and as such one would assume the IID length on Ethernet to be 64. But a reformulation would help, I agree. [...] >>> >>> — Section 4.5.2 — >>> >>> The meaning of the value "3333" >>> mentioned in that section 7 of [RFC2464] >>> >>> As you’ve just given the section reference in the previous sentence, I think it >>> reads better to use the context and just say, “The meaning of the value "3333" >>> mentioned there”. >>> >>> — Section 4.6 — >>> >>> A subnet may be formed over 802.11-OCB interfaces of vehicles that >>> are in close range (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). >>> >>> At first I tried to understand what the in-vehicle interfaces had to do with >>> the close range. I think it’s clearer with this word order: >>> >>> NEW >>> When vehicles are in close range, a subnet may be formed over >>> 802.11-OCB interfaces (not by their in-vehicle interfaces). >>> END I agree. [...] >>> and performs attacks >>> without needing to physically break any wall. >>> >>> “and performs attacks” shoud be “and perform attacks”. >>> The “physically break any wall” part seems kind of odd, as there are clearly no >>> physical walls involved at all. What are you really trying to say? This is an old view first appearing with Hiperlan and WiFi. At the time, it was often said that WiFi and Internet is a big risk, because one could attack without needing to force and come in server rooms; a brick-and-mortar enterprise is more difficult to attack than an enterprise on the web, because attacker would need to break walls made of brick and mortar, which is a difficult operation. >>> >>> The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP address >>> and session hijacking, and privacy violation Section 5.1. >>> >>> What is “Section 5.1” about? Is that meant to be a citation, like “[Section >>> 5.1]” ? Or rather between parenthesis, like this: NEW: >>>> The potential attack vectors are: MAC address spoofing, IP address >>>> and session hijacking, and privacy violation (see Section 5.1.) [...] Alex From nobody Fri Jul 12 04:02:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE911202E1; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgA-fyDzU5Hu; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 019D1120113; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 04:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CB2bR5018018; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:02:37 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id DDC46203CC9; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:02:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C369B200C9C; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:02:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CB2bmW012036; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:02:37 +0200 To: Alissa Cooper , The IESG Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, its@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, Barry Leiba References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <645edc7b-8768-92bf-564e-93f8aa9e78f5@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:02:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:02:49 -0000 This is a difficult thing to do, and it needs some long reflection on my side. But I would like to help progress the document. Allow me to group below the privacy-related quotations from Alissa Cooper, Barry Leiba and Roman Danyliw. This is in order to reduce the number of emails that I send. Le 10/07/2019 à 20:27, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker a écrit : [...] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > I support Roman's DISCUSS. > > Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document > specifies. Basically, at this stage the situation is that there are privacy issues with talking cars and talking Road-Side Units. These issues can be witnessed in all IP car trials that I looked at. They come from: - lack of implementation of RFC7217 ('privacy' IIDs) in the embedded computers. To my knowledge no embedded linux displays obfuscated (random) IIDs in IP LL addresses when typing ifconfig command. - lack of common recommendation of how to generate a more obfuscated MAC address ('random'). There is a recommendation at ETSI ITS, a recommendation at Microsoft, and a recommendation at IEEE. These three distinct recommendations are supposedly different. Others may disagree. - unknowns about the IPR status of the MAC generation techniques. The places to explore are Microsoft, ETSI and IEEE. There are some clarifications I received in private from something about Microsoft, but more exploration is needed. BEcause, on my side, I do not want to put here a method of MAC address generation that is protected by somebody else. > I think it would help to have a clear statement about the > circumstances under which each kind of address generation scheme is > recommended. After much reflection, I express I agree with the need. It would be so much helpful for implementer reading an RFC to see an algorithm in front of his eyes telling what to implement, and what to not care about. The recommendation could be something like this: if on your embedded platform the RFC 7217 (privacy IIDs) implementation is available then use it all while making sure the changes in IIDs dont break your application; if they do, dont use it, and inform users there are Privacy risks. And I have some doubts. I often fear that it is not because we make MUST RFC 7217 that it becomes implemented. There are good reasons from implementers not to implement it. Others think the contrary: put the MUST RFC 7217 in the I-D and the implementers will have to. So, I am some times tempted to just reflect the current situation (there is no privacy) and develop later a method to protect. But it is just my thoughts. Others may have another oppinion, that I am curious to learn. > Were RFC 4941 addresses not considered because addresses generated > according to RFC 8064 have functionally equivalent properties given > how often moving vehicle change subnets? YEs, that is one reason why. There are more reasons: - rfc 4941 (privacy addresses) are not implemented in many embedded systems. rfc 4941 and rfc 7217 (privacy addresses) are implemented mainly in BSD and derivatives; these BSD flavors do not implement OCB; given the choice, BSD is not used. There are other OSs specific to embedded systems, and none has MAC address generations schemes, as far as I know. - stable link-local addresses are needed when forming subnets of cars, because there are routing table entries with next hop values that must stay stable. (worse, they should be easily remembered by humans in the beginning, and even the LL addresses EUI64 are hard to work with). > For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommendations for > when IIDs should be re-generated? It is possible. On my side I do not want to do it (re-generate), because I have never tried to regenerate. I do not want it. There are groups of people at ETSI and some trials that do consider re-generations of LL address. This implies re-generatin of certificates as well. These certificates are not openly available; they depend on closed-circuit CAs. They are hard to test and dont scale to large sizes. They are hard to access. I do not want to get in the way of satisfying the request of giving recommendations for when IIDs should be re-generated. Maybe a recommendation should be given by somebody trying it. Barry Leiba wrote recently: >>>> If semantically opaque IIDs are needed, they MAY be generated >>>> using the method for generating semantically opaque IIDs >>> >>> This isn’t wrong with the “MAY”, but I think it really is just a >>> non-keyword “may”. I tend to agree. It is a non-keyword 'may'. >>>> In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during >>>> well defined renumbering events. >>> >>> Also a statement of fact, so “may”. I agree. Roman Danyliw wrote recently: > ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from > [ETSI-sec-archi]? I do not know for sure myself. One would ask Jérôme Härri. I looked myself at the public document referred (ETSI TS 102 940 V1.2.1 (2016-11)). I could find a recommendation to generate MAC address: "shall be derived from the identifier provided by the Security Entity in the ID change notification". (the "ID Change Notification" seems to be an application layer message). From my side, I do not agree with this method to generate more obfuscated MAC addresses. I have some ideas how to generate more obfuscated MAC addresses, but certainly not in that ETSI way. > ** What is meant by the drivers’ identity in this case? There is activity at Gemalto now Thales about e-Driver's License. Supposedly that is an electronic format of a driver's license that is more accessible. I think that driver's license in some countries have no electronic equivalent at this time. The trials of electronic Driver's License happened mostly in America, and were probably totally absent in Europe. That is all I know. > What is the pseudonym scheme is being used to protect it or what > requirements are being set for it? I do not know myself. > ** What are the specific challenges of concern around > pseudo-anonymization approaches to which an allusion is made? > > ** Who is the trusted third parted needed? There is no trusted third party in the automotive networks. There are a few efforts to build national Certificate Authorities, European automotive PKIs, and similar. Most are backed by trials. But there is no universally agreed CA (like is e.g. Verisign in the Internet world). They are all expensive to access, and some times even impossible. What is needed is that the automotive networks use the CAs from Internet. What is needed is that the automotive networks use the CAs from Internet. Alex From nobody Fri Jul 12 05:33:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0A51200FA; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:33:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c2vcHCDY7Aj9; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3170B120045; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 05:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CCWv2L009354; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:32:57 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D562203F47; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:32:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D0D203DDE; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:32:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CCWvDm027760; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:32:57 +0200 To: Russ Housley , Mirja Kuehlewind , Nabil Benamar Cc: IESG , its References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:32:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 12:33:03 -0000 hats and freedoms are valuable. I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. Alex Le 11/07/2019 à 17:51, Russ Housley a écrit : > I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale be > provided: > >    The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by >    a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header.  In the LLC >    header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination >    (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to >    0x86DD (IPv6).  The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >    'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving >    higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >    traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. > > Russ > > >> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > > wrote: >> >> Hi All: >> >> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's important >> to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated >> spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC >> regulations require that such safety communications have access >> priority over other communications [47 CFR § 90.377(d)] .  I would be >> cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced >> that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >> >> Best Regards, >> John >> >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > > wrote: >> >> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >> >> Mirja >> >> >> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >> > wrote: >> > >> > Hi Mirja, >> > >> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views >> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to >> avoid confusion. >> > >> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >> > wrote: >> > Hi Nabil, >> > >> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised >> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather >> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST >> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory >> requirement? >> > >> > Mirja >> > >> > >> > >> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Mirja, >> > > >> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >> > > >> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed >> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members >> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us >> clarify this point. >> > > >> > > Here is what we got from them: >> > > >> > > .  Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with >> “User Priority” of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the >> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 >> specification. >> > > >> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not >> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID >> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 >> specification.  For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID >> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header.  The use of these 4 >> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal >> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. >> > > >> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std >> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.  This clause intentionally abstracts the >> exact details of 802..11’s internal operation, while describing >> specifically the behavior required by the user.  For example, the >> following text: >> > > >> > > “In the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in >> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the >> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control >> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.  User >> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').” >> > > >> > > could be replaced by: >> > > >> > > >> > > “The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a ‘priority’ >> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a “Background” >> user priority.” >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Thanks again. >> > > >> > > >> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja Kühlewind via Datatracker >> > wrote: >> > > Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for >> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >> > > >> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply >> to all >> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >> cut this >> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >> > > >> > > >> > > Please refer to >> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> > > >> > > >> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >> here: >> > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > DISCUSS: >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > >> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented >> in the TSV-ART >> > > review (Thanks Jörg!): >> > > >> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >> > >    'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >> > >    'Background' user priority." >> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the >> assumption here >> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less >> important than >> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping >> document and should >> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it >> would need to be >> > > spelled out). >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > COMMENT: >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > >> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that >> was somehow deemed >> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed >> into the >> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed >> in this document >> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, >> especially as they seem to >> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >> > > >> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A  A future improvement/in OCB >> mode. A future >> > > improvement/ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > Best Regards >> > > >> > > Nabil Benamar >> > > Associate Professor >> > > Department of Computer Sciences >> > > School of Technology >> > > Moulay Ismail University >> > > Meknes. Morocco >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Best Regards >> > >> > Nabil Benamar >> > Associate Professor >> > Department of Computer Sciences >> > School of Technology >> > Moulay Ismail University >> > Meknes. Morocco >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> >> >> -- >> John Kenney >> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >> Toyota InfoTech Labs >> 465 Bernardo Avenue >> Mountain View, CA 94043 >> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Fri Jul 12 06:00:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB6912011E for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hcGppE7qhUsZ for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2398E12049A for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CD0dHi017388 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:00:39 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 28570201191 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:00:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DCEF203FC8 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:00:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CD0dvT016119 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:00:39 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <61452b20-9cd1-c9ce-1eb2-ebb090efb8c4@gmail.com> <936d2cd6-5381-8387-cd2d-e8b33cb5dd7a@gmail.com> <28085_1561479785_5D124A69_28085_17908_1_460b369c-3d22-34f1-3734-355bba40dff3@cea.fr> <8995c84e-7590-5e2e-bd94-c0588501a635@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <7a6ddaef-a30e-b298-bd8e-b06ccbaff34f@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:00:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8995c84e-7590-5e2e-bd94-c0588501a635@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Protocols and Architectures for Traffic Lights X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:00:45 -0000 Traffic Light EXchange platform (TLEX) is a protocol about which people in countries like Netherlands and Finland talk, together with the acronyms iVRI and IVERA. Manufacturers: SWARCO, Dynniq, Siemens. Alex Le 08/07/2019 à 16:55, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > The 'Tipo V' (read 'type V',  like in Valencia) is a protocol used in > Spain to communicate to traffic lights controllers.  The spec number is > UNE 135401-5 IN. > > It is standardised by Spaniard organisation AENOR; the spec is paying, > but there is an excerpt available for free; one company, at least, > implements it - ETRA. > > > > Le 03/07/2019 à 11:43, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >> excuse me being at the risk of disturbing the group with my personal >> notes; I promiss you I ponder maybe I will write a draft about this... >> >> In Scandinavian countries the protocol to communicate to traffic >> lights controllers is RSMP with a spec on github. (provided by person >> at gov't organisaiton through a doc called CEN/TC 278/WG 17 N 207). >> >> So the current list of protocols to communicate to traffic lights >> controllers is: NTCIP (US), UTMC (UK), DIASER (FR), RSMP (Nordic), >> OCIT (D), IVERA (NL), ISO PRESTO 22951. >> >> The SPAT/MAP/SRM/SSM are a whole different class of things. >> >> The translation between these two classes is what brings latency. >> This is what makes that the color of the light a human sees on >> smartphone or dashboard can be different (even if just for a few >> moments) from the color of the light seen on reality. >> >> Implementers of apps of 'virtual' such colors of traffic lights on >> smartphones/dashboards are Dynniq, probably NeoGLS, and a colleague. >> >> Alex >> >> Le 25/06/2019 à 18:22, Alexandre PETRESCU a écrit : >>> I got more enlightenment from a recognised expert. >>> >>> In France, in addition to DIASER there is also LCR protocol for >>> Traffic Lights. >>> >>> In UK there is UTMC protocol. >>> >>> NTCIP is acknowledged as a protocol in USA.  Further, it may be >>> implemented by Thales, a French company. >>> >>> -- >>> Alexandre Petrescu >>> alexandre.petrescu@cea.fr, tél 0169089223 >>> >>> Le 06/06/2019 à 17:18, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>> >>>> For further completeness... >>>> >>>> The Dutch version of protocols for Traffic Lights Controllers, in >>>> addition to IVERA also include iVRI, on the web at >>>> https://www.crow.nl/thema-s/verkeersmanagement/landelijke-ivri-standaarden >>>> >>>> >>>> The German OCIT protocol is on the web at www.ocit.org >>>> >>>> I continue to wonder what is the protocol used for communicating >>>> with Traffic Lights Controllers in Italy, and in America? >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> Le 06/06/2019 à 05:13, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>> >>>>> For completeness, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The complete list of protocols to communication to Traffic Lights >>>>> Controllers is: DIASER, IVERA, OCIT. >>>>> >>>>> Because I learn in Germany and the Czech Republic, the OCIT >>>>> protocol (not DIASER) may be used for communication to Traffic >>>>> Lights Controller, with some implementations from Siemens and from >>>>> Cross. Not known whether OCIT works on IP, and on IPv6. >>>>> >>>>> DIASER is known to work on RS232, TCP and UDP.  Seen on IPv4; not >>>>> known on IPv6.  SEA is a traffic lights controller manufacturer in >>>>> France that produces some, implements DIASER too.  There are about >>>>> 10 manufacturers in France (Aximum of Colas, Fareco of Fayat, >>>>> Lacroix, SEA, others?), all doing DIASER. >>>>> >>>>> Basically, if one wants a car to talk to traffic lights controllers >>>>> with low latenccy, one wants to put 3 protocols in that car. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 29/01/2019 à 15:04, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>>>>> >>>>>>   Protocols and Architectures for Traffic Lights >>>>>>               Januay 29th, 2019 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DIASER: a protocol used to communicate to Traffic Lights controllers. >>>>>> Used in France.  Specified by AFNOR.  Closed and paying >>>>>> specification. >>>>>> Works on hardware platforms from Lacroix (model Traffy) and Aximum >>>>>> (model Maestro), and probably others.  Works on serial and on UDP/IP. >>>>>> Example queries are: "DZ" to reset, "Ck" and "CJ" to query the >>>>>> current >>>>>> color of lights, C# and CU to get the time spent in a color. >>>>>> >>>>>> API WIM 7101, RSGC2: proprietary API interfaces used by organisation >>>>>> NEAVIA of organisation Lacroix in France; it is used to provide >>>>>> access >>>>>> to data of traffic lights controllers.  It can be used with DIASER in >>>>>> a sequence way: a gateway converts from one to another. >>>>>> >>>>>> ISO PRESTO 22951: a protocol to communicate with traffic lights >>>>>> controller, to obtain priority for special vehicles. >>>>>> >>>>>> SPAT/SSM/SRM: protocols used by future traffic lights controllers; >>>>>> specified by SAE in J2735.  The 2009 version is freely available, >>>>>> whereas the 2016 (non retro-compatible) is paying 100 USD, >>>>>> approximative.  SPAT is Signal Phase and Timing, whereas SRM is >>>>>> Signal >>>>>> Request Message. >>>>>> >>>>>> SPAT-EM: an European version of SPAT, specified by ETSI, which >>>>>> encapsulates SPAT.  Free access, but SPAT still paying (free >>>>>> encapsulated paying). >>>>>> >>>>>> IVERA: a protocol used in Netherlands to communicate with Traffic >>>>>> Lights controllers.  Potentially VLOG is also such a protocol. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3G Segnaletica: an organisation in Italy that provides hardware for >>>>>> controllers for traffic  lights.  Also has models carried in 'mobile' >>>>>> traffic lights.  It provides a Raspberry Pi to access the traffic >>>>>> lights data.  The Raspberry Pi uses an API to access the controller >>>>>> status.  That API uses HTTP. >>>>>> >>>>>> Siemens: is an organisation that probably provides hardware for >>>>>> traffic lights controllers to be used in America (USA). >>>>>> >>>>>> Architectures: sketches drawing controller, tri-light bulbs, >>>>>> Internet, >>>>>> 802.11-OCB, car, API, SPAT. >>>>>> >>>>>> Acknowledgements: Daniele Brevi, Bart Netten, Stephane Goeuriot, Sri >>>>>> Gundavelli, Bruno Cabon, Paul Thorpe. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> its mailing list >>>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> its mailing list >>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Fri Jul 12 07:48:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7D812038C for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:48:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NtmOfVIoBT5J for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ABFF120388 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 07:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CEmIKg007788 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:48:18 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 71FC320404A for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:48:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F67204041 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:48:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6CEmIwD018104 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:48:18 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2CFE579C-7625-4875-AD4A-D5C26814287D@cooperw.in> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <232e06b7-6d14-2050-3cab-b41990c19964@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:48:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:48:24 -0000 Le 11/07/2019 à 16:25, Nabil Benamar a écrit : > Hi Alissa, > > Are you referring to this text that may be added to the document? > > > "However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since > they roam a lot, the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can > leak the presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location > tracking, if the same interface identifier is used with different > prefixes as a device/vehicle moves between different networks." Expressing the need of change of Link-local Address of an OCB interface of an automobile in order to ensure privacy should be accompanied with expressing the need of keeping Link-local Address stable next-hop of routing table entry in nearby automobile. The routing works like this: an Automobile holds a routing table entry whose next-hop field contains the link-local address of the nearby Automobile. If that link-local address changes, then the two Automobiles can no longer talk to each other. So yes, change the LL address to ensure privacy and dodge the attackers, but no, do not change it - i.e. keep it stable - otherwise the legitimate users will be disconnected. Alex > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:52 PM Alissa Cooper > wrote: > > Hi Nabil, > >> On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar > > wrote: >> >> Hi Alissa, >> >> Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker >> > wrote: >> >> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to >> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >> cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer >> tohttps://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for >> more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >> here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> I support Roman's DISCUSS. >> >> Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this >> document specifies. I think it would help to have a clear statement >> about the circumstances under which each kind of address generation >> scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941 addresses not considered >> because addresses generated according to RFC 8064 have functionally >> equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle change >> subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give >> recommendations for when IIDs should be re-generated? >> >> Here is the new text in -49 >> >> An example of change policy is to change the MAC address of the OCB >> interface each time the system boots up. This may help mitigate >> privacy risks to a certain level. Futhermore, for pricavy concerns >> ([RFC8065 ]) recommends using >> an address generation scheme rather than addresses generated from a >> fixed link-layer address. >> > > I saw this when I read the document but it doesn’t address my > questions above. Also in your email to Roni you mentioned other > environmental factors that might trigger a change in link-local > address, so I was hoping to see that in the document text. > > Thanks, Alissa > >> = Section 5.2 = >> >> "An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other >> documents." >> >> Isn't the length specified for each of the two IID generation >> mechanisms discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4? >> >> >> We decided to remove this sentence from the text since ther is no >> other document. >> >> >> = Section 5.3 = >> >> "The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' >> identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias >> identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality >> of messages and trust between participants" >> >> Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I >> think this is incorrect. >> >> >> I agree. >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> Please expand OCB and STA on first use. >> >> = Section 2 = >> >> "Note: compliance with standards and regulations set in different >> countries when using the 5.9GHz frequency band is required." >> >> I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being >> referenced here, but is there any specific reason why this needs to >> be said here? Presumably users of regulated spectrum bands the >> world over must comply with associated regulations governing their >> use. It's not clear to me that it makes sense to note this here. >> >> = Section 5.1.1 = >> >> "Further correlation of this information with other data captured >> by other means, or other visual information (car color, others) >> MAY constitute privacy risks." >> >> The normative MAY is not appropriate here. >> >> = Section 5.2 = >> >> "In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well >> defined renumbering events." >> >> The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the >> 802.11-OCB spec). >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Best Regards >> >> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences >> School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco > > > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco > > > > _______________________________________________ its mailing list > its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Fri Jul 12 19:53:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4D81200B8 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZrOmkOf5GRpU for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 762C81200B6 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13094300B03 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 22:34:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ISMPcqQ-ThUv for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 22:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (unknown [138.88.156.37]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDAB5300414; Fri, 12 Jul 2019 22:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 22:53:18 -0400 Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , Nabil Benamar , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 02:53:28 -0000 Alex: I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only added a phrase of = rationale. Russ > On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > hats and freedoms are valuable. >=20 > I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB = without QoS headers. >=20 > Alex >=20 > Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale = be provided: >> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded = by >> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the = LLC >> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination >> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to >> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving >> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. >> Russ >>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi All: >>>=20 >>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's = important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public = regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, = FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would = be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>>=20 >>> Best Regards, >>> John >>>=20 >>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>=20 >>> Mirja >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Mirja, >>> > >>> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different = views >>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to >>> avoid confusion. >>> > >>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>> > wrote: >>> > Hi Nabil, >>> > >>> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised >>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather >>> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST >>> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory >>> requirement? >>> > >>> > Mirja >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Hi Mirja, >>> > > >>> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >>> > > >>> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed >>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members >>> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us >>> clarify this point. >>> > > >>> > > Here is what we got from them: >>> > > >>> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with >>> =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or = 2), and leave the >>> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 >>> specification. >>> > > >>> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not >>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID >>> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 >>> specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID >>> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header. The use of these = 4 >>> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal >>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. >>> > > >>> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std >>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the >>> exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while = describing >>> specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, the >>> following text: >>> > > >>> > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype = sub-field in >>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the >>> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS = Control >>> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User >>> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D >>> > > >>> > > could be replaced by: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 >>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a = =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D >>> user priority.=E2=80=9D >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Thanks again. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker >>> > wrote: >>> > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot = position for >>> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>> > > >>> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and = reply >>> to all >>> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to >>> cut this >>> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Please refer to >>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >>> here: >>> > > >>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > DISCUSS: >>> > > >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > >>> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also = commented >>> in the TSV-ART >>> > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>> > > >>> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with = a >>> > > 'Background' user priority." >>> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the >>> assumption here >>> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less >>> important than >>> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping >>> document and should >>> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least = it >>> would need to be >>> > > spelled out). >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > COMMENT: >>> > > >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > >>> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that >>> was somehow deemed >>> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got = stuffed >>> into the >>> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed >>> in this document >>> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, >>> especially as they seem to >>> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >>> > > >>> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB >>> mode. A future >>> > > improvement/ >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > -- >>> > > >>> > > Best Regards >>> > > >>> > > Nabil Benamar >>> > > Associate Professor >>> > > Department of Computer Sciences >>> > > School of Technology >>> > > Moulay Ismail University >>> > > Meknes. Morocco >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > Best Regards >>> > >>> > Nabil Benamar >>> > Associate Professor >>> > Department of Computer Sciences >>> > School of Technology >>> > Moulay Ismail University >>> > Meknes. Morocco >>> > >>> > >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> John Kenney >>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>> Toyota InfoTech Labs >>> 465 Bernardo Avenue >>> Mountain View, CA 94043 >>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Mon Jul 15 06:32:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B83E1200C4; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 06:32:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lk-zEDdbEnlD; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 06:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4DDC120090; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 06:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6FDWGsZ036171; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:32:16 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7AEFD203399; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:32:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D8B2023D9; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:32:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6FDWGSE007899; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:32:16 +0200 To: Russ Housley Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , Nabil Benamar , IESG , its References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:32:16 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 13:32:22 -0000 Le 13/07/2019 à 04:53, Russ Housley a écrit : > Alex: > > I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only added a phrase of rationale. I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of rationale was added. The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is logical. I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the MUST. I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale within a limited bandwidth.) (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured. The number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not thousands. Within these dimensions, criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An increase in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be even more sufficient) (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety can be realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to perform and would overcome QoS priorities.) Alex > > Russ > > >> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> >> hats and freedoms are valuable. >> >> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. >> >> Alex >> >> Le 11/07/2019 à 17:51, Russ Housley a écrit : >>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale be provided: >>> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by >>> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC >>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination >>> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to >>> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving >>> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >>> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. >>> Russ >>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All: >>>> >>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access priority over other communications [47 CFR § 90.377(d)] . I would be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> John >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>> >>>> Mirja >>>> >>>> >>>> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hi Mirja, >>>> > >>>> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views >>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to >>>> avoid confusion. >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>> > wrote: >>>> > Hi Nabil, >>>> > >>>> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised >>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather >>>> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST >>>> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory >>>> requirement? >>>> > >>>> > Mirja >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > Hi Mirja, >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >>>> > > >>>> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed >>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members >>>> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us >>>> clarify this point. >>>> > > >>>> > > Here is what we got from them: >>>> > > >>>> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with >>>> “User Priority” of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the >>>> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 >>>> specification. >>>> > > >>>> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not >>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID >>>> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 >>>> specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID >>>> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header. The use of these 4 >>>> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal >>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. >>>> > > >>>> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std >>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the >>>> exact details of 802..11’s internal operation, while describing >>>> specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, the >>>> following text: >>>> > > >>>> > > “In the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in >>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the >>>> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control >>>> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User >>>> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').” >>>> > > >>>> > > could be replaced by: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > “The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a ‘priority’ >>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a “Background” >>>> user priority.” >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks again. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja Kühlewind via Datatracker >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for >>>> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>> > > >>>> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply >>>> to all >>>> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >>>> cut this >>>> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Please refer to >>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >>>> here: >>>> > > >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > DISCUSS: >>>> > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > >>>> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented >>>> in the TSV-ART >>>> > > review (Thanks Jörg!): >>>> > > >>>> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >>>> > > 'Background' user priority." >>>> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the >>>> assumption here >>>> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less >>>> important than >>>> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping >>>> document and should >>>> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it >>>> would need to be >>>> > > spelled out). >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > COMMENT: >>>> > > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > >>>> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that >>>> was somehow deemed >>>> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed >>>> into the >>>> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed >>>> in this document >>>> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, >>>> especially as they seem to >>>> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >>>> > > >>>> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB >>>> mode. A future >>>> > > improvement/ >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > >>>> > > Best Regards >>>> > > >>>> > > Nabil Benamar >>>> > > Associate Professor >>>> > > Department of Computer Sciences >>>> > > School of Technology >>>> > > Moulay Ismail University >>>> > > Meknes. Morocco >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > >>>> > Best Regards >>>> > >>>> > Nabil Benamar >>>> > Associate Professor >>>> > Department of Computer Sciences >>>> > School of Technology >>>> > Moulay Ismail University >>>> > Meknes. Morocco >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> its mailing list >>>> its@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Kenney >>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs >>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue >>>> Mountain View, CA 94043 >>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > From nobody Mon Jul 15 07:39:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFB4120157 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 07:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I35iU5khbf3V for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 07:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01E5A12016B for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 07:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40A2300A30 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 10:19:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id vsWqtFq4fL2s for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 10:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (unknown [138.88.156.37]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0081300A02; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 10:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 10:38:56 -0400 Cc: Nabil Benamar , Mirja Kuehlewind , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 14:39:07 -0000 Alex: Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the values used for = the QoS bits. What would you like to see instead of the second MUST? Russ > On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >> Alex: >> I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only added a phrase = of rationale. >=20 > I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of = rationale was added. >=20 > The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is logical. >=20 > I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. >=20 > (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the MUST. = I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of = safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an = alternative to satisfy the rationale within a limited bandwidth.) >=20 > (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at = 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured. The = number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is less = than hundreds, and certainly not thousands. Within these dimensions, = criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An = increase in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be = even more sufficient) >=20 > (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety can be = realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS priorities; radio jamming = and IP security attacks are easy to perform and would overcome QoS = priorities.) >=20 > Alex >=20 >> Russ >>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >>>=20 >>> hats and freedoms are valuable. >>>=20 >>> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB = without QoS headers. >>>=20 >>> Alex >>>=20 >>> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of = rationale be provided: >>>> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately = preceded by >>>> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In = the LLC >>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination >>>> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set = to >>>> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use = a >>>> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving >>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >>>> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. >>>> Russ >>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney = > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi All: >>>>>=20 >>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's = important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public = regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, = FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would = be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> John >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Mirja >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>>> > = wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Hi Mirja, >>>>> > >>>>> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different = views >>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text = to >>>>> avoid confusion. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > Hi Nabil, >>>>> > >>>>> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly = advised >>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is = rather >>>>> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a = MUST >>>>> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory >>>>> requirement? >>>>> > >>>>> > Mirja >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>>> > = wrote: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Hi Mirja, >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed >>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members >>>>> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help = us >>>>> clarify this point. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Here is what we got from them: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted = with >>>>> =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or = 2), and leave the >>>>> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 >>>>> specification. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer = (not >>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID >>>>> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 >>>>> specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the = TID >>>>> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header. The use of = these 4 >>>>> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal >>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std >>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts = the >>>>> exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while = describing >>>>> specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, = the >>>>> following text: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype = sub-field in >>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the >>>>> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS = Control >>>>> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. = User >>>>> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D >>>>> > > >>>>> > > could be replaced by: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 >>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a = =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D >>>>> user priority.=E2=80=9D >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Thanks again. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot = position for >>>>> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>>> > > >>>>> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and = reply >>>>> to all >>>>> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to >>>>> cut this >>>>> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Please refer to >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be = found >>>>> here: >>>>> > > >>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > > DISCUSS: >>>>> > > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > > >>>>> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also = commented >>>>> in the TSV-ART >>>>> > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>>>> > > >>>>> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>>> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a >>>>> > > 'Background' user priority." >>>>> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume = the >>>>> assumption here >>>>> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is = less >>>>> important than >>>>> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping >>>>> document and should >>>>> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least = it >>>>> would need to be >>>>> > > spelled out). >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > > COMMENT: >>>>> > > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> > > >>>>> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text = that >>>>> was somehow deemed >>>>> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got = stuffed >>>>> into the >>>>> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not = needed >>>>> in this document >>>>> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, >>>>> especially as they seem to >>>>> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >>>>> > > >>>>> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB >>>>> mode. A future >>>>> > > improvement/ >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > -- >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Best Regards >>>>> > > >>>>> > > Nabil Benamar >>>>> > > Associate Professor >>>>> > > Department of Computer Sciences >>>>> > > School of Technology >>>>> > > Moulay Ismail University >>>>> > > Meknes. Morocco >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > >>>>> > Best Regards >>>>> > >>>>> > Nabil Benamar >>>>> > Associate Professor >>>>> > Department of Computer Sciences >>>>> > School of Technology >>>>> > Moulay Ismail University >>>>> > Meknes. Morocco >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> its mailing list >>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>> John Kenney >>>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs >>>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue >>>>> Mountain View, CA 94043 >>>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> its mailing list >>>> its@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >=20 > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Mon Jul 15 08:33:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C1A120196 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:33:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=us-toyota-itc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4FVFw6q816Y for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA15612011B for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id b7so17388760otl.11 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:33:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=us-toyota-itc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MII59HAArSZbSsuvPADFOO+NOaqPyOvvtiIfTqlH31Q=; b=tmn0jPQSu13LPIccyY53j4GS0zHROteYsbCon0f2JGeN+QTaCQEw1AL3Lr3Csd+8re Gss7KU0UfY8zG/9Vd+nCgL7ZvhIXZ3sRc7X4WAGqDSjCnJs++AXiUxFdRGvKhRgeXAXN 5hMRk0owMNUWclFfrAXDzPf8Ls7cmCIxxjsF0TM7r+e/foq2Umm26FHniL3OKaKoWwnz DPQF0tX/2QB5pUagyA+LXwfzcEsV+US3/l0NkCcRthnBt4PcUOQp5GRInDMPWPBYgI26 uwjCe17g9GoptOC3Sol5uKHKbXxa73nL+JR+6V9f1TvkuaDMB36EBofy4IPyDixdC5yO 43Gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MII59HAArSZbSsuvPADFOO+NOaqPyOvvtiIfTqlH31Q=; b=pqSEGCQnbsjOM1+pjI9AGVrJ5KfN5CyJjJLh5ky1hQAnFg9gVO5W47qJ9TKqMcgmTw vto6qFJkq8VQlCMJJEo/SLK3kmNA0qcJ0CUDqiM02tiYe9LY5m0hilpC3YFOKOfJNGs8 0A8tH2f/Sg5GkQ4tgKEF2FkOw/E86qnwRkjr6oqAn9AJzQJnV9e0ztlibz30veoZJbgA /Thu6MFIt1n4INq2mFjvQ/0FrW2mTcfVaDqTR33KmtJqSFYRnHvdPOPeeT7kVRCfB2ie a4kwnImPOVucMhM4ddcHGJNyEwvsXpWD3x8a2F3NdJTQC4nLwj8kDg/oCdhq6REOUY25 ipjA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW8AsadZeVIa9jOI+MbbFHpHp4zZ9z42OwU5S0oJYq+ndCYwFKm dPXsmh9h05bvg00RTddm5sEyqh7JdNUqVignF99A2w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzgQ9hZZcxFNzu+R1gvlArE3JTmC7yvJpw5IOw0NGg7Qdh+IdlJSN9Omw4NLWTzSA5b6fD0W1MgaA2dHM9/XqU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:6:: with SMTP id c6mr20951100otp.14.1563204809769; Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:33:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: From: John Kenney Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:33:18 -0700 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: IESG , Mirja Kuehlewind , Nabil Benamar , Russ Housley , its Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000065d35a058db9fb2d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 15:33:35 -0000 --00000000000065d35a058db9fb2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All: I don=E2=80=99t want to be argumentative, but I believe automotive experts = would disagree with this back-of-the-envelope analysis. Channel congestion is a real concern. It can arise on channels carrying key safety services like collision avoidance (BSM/CAM/DENM), personal safety (for pedestrians, bicyclists and other vulnerable road users), platooning, cooperative perception, and many I2V services. SAE and ETSI have taken concrete steps to standardize congestion control. IEEE 1609 and ETSI require use of QoS packets, because prioritizing channel access is an important tool to mitigate the effects of congestion on channels with mixed traffic. The interference range will typically go well beyond 1 km (I.e. 500 m radius). Density studies have shown realistic densities of more than one thousand in an interference range, and that is what we plan for. Interested parties are invited to participate in standardization related to scalability issues at SAE, IEEE 1609, and ETSI. Best Regards, John On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 6:32 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : > > Alex: > > > > I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only added a phrase of > rationale. > > I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of > rationale was added. > > The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is logical. > > I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. > > (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the MUST. I.e. > it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety > by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an alternative > to satisfy the rationale within a limited bandwidth.) > > (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at > 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured. The > number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is less > than hundreds, and certainly not thousands. Within these dimensions, > criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An > increase in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be > even more sufficient) > > (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety can be > realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS priorities; radio jamming > and IP security attacks are easy to perform and would overcome QoS > priorities.) > > Alex > > > > > Russ > > > > > >> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu < > alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> hats and freedoms are valuable. > >> > >> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB > without QoS headers. > >> > >> Alex > >> > >> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : > >>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale > be provided: > >>> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately precede= d > by > >>> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the > LLC > >>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol > Discrimination > >>> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > >>> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >>> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), > reserving > >>> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > >>> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. > >>> Russ > >>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi All: > >>>> > >>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's > important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public > regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, > FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access > priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would b= e > cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced tha= t > doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. > >>>> > >>>> Best Regards, > >>>> John > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. > >>>> > >>>> Mirja > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar > >>>> > wrote= : > >>>> > > >>>> > Hi Mirja, > >>>> > > >>>> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different vie= ws > >>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to > >>>> avoid confusion. > >>>> > > >>>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > Hi Nabil, > >>>> > > >>>> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advise= d > >>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather > >>>> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUS= T > >>>> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory > >>>> requirement? > >>>> > > >>>> > Mirja > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar > >>>> > wrote= : > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Hi Mirja, > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Thank you for your review and comments. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed > >>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members > >>>> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help u= s > >>>> clarify this point. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Here is what we got from them: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with > >>>> =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or = 2), and leave the > >>>> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 > >>>> specification. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (no= t > >>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID > >>>> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 > >>>> specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID > >>>> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header. The use of these= 4 > >>>> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal > >>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std > >>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the > >>>> exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while des= cribing > >>>> specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, th= e > >>>> following text: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-= field in > >>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the > >>>> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Contr= ol > >>>> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User > >>>> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D > >>>> > > > >>>> > > could be replaced by: > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 > >>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a =E2=80=9CBackg= round=E2=80=9D > >>>> user priority.=E2=80=9D > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Thanks again. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Data= tracker > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot positi= on for > >>>> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > >>>> > > > >>>> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and rep= ly > >>>> to all > >>>> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to > >>>> cut this > >>>> > > introductory paragraph, however.) > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Please refer to > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >>>> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT position= s. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be foun= d > >>>> here: > >>>> > > > >>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > > DISCUSS: > >>>> > > > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > > > >>>> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also comment= ed > >>>> in the TSV-ART > >>>> > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > >>>> > > > >>>> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >>>> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS wit= h > a > >>>> > > 'Background' user priority." > >>>> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume th= e > >>>> assumption here > >>>> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less > >>>> important than > >>>> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping > >>>> document and should > >>>> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least = it > >>>> would need to be > >>>> > > spelled out). > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > > COMMENT: > >>>> > > > >>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> > > > >>>> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that > >>>> was somehow deemed > >>>> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuff= ed > >>>> into the > >>>> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed > >>>> in this document > >>>> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, > >>>> especially as they seem to > >>>> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB > >>>> mode. A future > >>>> > > improvement/ > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > -- > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Best Regards > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Nabil Benamar > >>>> > > Associate Professor > >>>> > > Department of Computer Sciences > >>>> > > School of Technology > >>>> > > Moulay Ismail University > >>>> > > Meknes. Morocco > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > -- > >>>> > > >>>> > Best Regards > >>>> > > >>>> > Nabil Benamar > >>>> > Associate Professor > >>>> > Department of Computer Sciences > >>>> > School of Technology > >>>> > Moulay Ismail University > >>>> > Meknes. Morocco > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> its mailing list > >>>> its@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> John Kenney > >>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher > >>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs > >>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue > >>>> Mountain View, CA 94043 > >>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> its mailing list > >>> its@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --=20 John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 --00000000000065d35a058db9fb2d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All:

I don=E2=80=99t want to be argumentative, but I believe automo= tive experts would disagree with this back-of-the-envelope analysis. Channe= l congestion is a real concern.=C2=A0 It can arise on channels carrying key= safety services like collision avoidance (BSM/CAM/DENM), personal safety (= for pedestrians, bicyclists and other vulnerable road users), platooning, c= ooperative perception, and many I2V services.=C2=A0 SAE and ETSI have taken= concrete steps to standardize congestion control. IEEE 1609 and ETSI requi= re use of QoS packets, because prioritizing channel access is an important = tool to mitigate the effects of congestion on channels with mixed traffic.= =C2=A0

The interference = range will typically go well beyond 1 km (I.e. 500 m radius).=C2=A0 Density= studies have shown realistic densities of more than one thousand in an int= erference range, and that is what we plan for.

<= /div>
Interested parties are invited to participate in sta= ndardization related to scalability issues at SAE, IEEE 1609, and ETSI.

Best Regards,
John

On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 6:32 AM Alexandre Petrescu <<= a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com= > wrote:


Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Alex:
>
> I did not add or remove any MUST statements.=C2=A0 I only added a phra= se of rationale.

I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of
rationale was added.

The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST.=C2=A0 It is logical.

I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST.

(It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the MUST.=C2=A0 I.= e.
it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale within a limited bandwidth.)

(the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at
16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured.=C2=A0 Th= e
number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not thousands.=C2=A0 Within these dimensions, =
criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally.=C2=A0 An <= br> increase in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be
even more sufficient)

(disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety can be
realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to perform and would overcome QoS
priorities.)

Alex

>
> Russ
>
>
>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmai= l.com> wrote:
>>
>> hats and freedoms are valuable.
>>
>> I disagree with the second MUST.=C2=A0 I will write a draft IPv6-o= ver-OCB without QoS headers.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit :
>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of ra= tionale be provided:
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB a= re immediately preceded by
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an = 802.11 header.=C2=A0 In the LLC
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0header, and in accordance with the EtherTyp= e Protocol Discrimination
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Typ= e field MUST be set to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A00x86DD (IPv6).=C2=A0 The mapping to the 802= .11 data service MUST use a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a &= #39;Background' user priority), reserving
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0higher priority values for safety-critical = and time-sensitive
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic [IEEE-1609.2].
>>> Russ
>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney <jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com= <mailto:jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi All:
>>>>
>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it= 's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public r= egulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC= regulations require that such safety communications have access priority o= ver other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] .=C2=A0 I would be cauti= ous about removing the current language unless you are convinced that doing= so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net= <mailto:ietf@k= uehlewind.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks. Removing this text entirely is = a good option.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mirja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil B= enamar
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma<= /a>>> wrote:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Hi Mirja,
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Actually, the text was written som= e time ago and different views
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0were shared in the group. I think we ne= ed to remove this text to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0avoid confusion.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mi= rja Kuehlewind
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<ietf@kuehlewind.net <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> wrot= e:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Hi Nabil,
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I think my point was slightly diff= erent. Dorothy mainly advised
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you _how_ to specify the priority. Howe= ver my question is rather
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_if_ that is needed and if it is really= appropriate to use a MUST
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here. Can you further explain why that = is seen as a mandatory
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requirement?
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Mirja
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nab= il Benamar
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma<= /a>>> wrote:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Hi Mirja,
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Thank you for your review and= comments.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > You raised a very important p= oint that was discussed
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extensively on the ML and then we asked= the IEEE 802.11 members
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide u= s with a review to help us
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clarify this point.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Here is what we got from them= :
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > .=C2=A0 Suggest to simply sta= te that the data is transmitted with
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Back= ground (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0internal details of how this is accompl= ished to the 802.11
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specification.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > User Priority is typically de= scribed as a simple integer (not
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a binary value), and the mapping of thi= s User Priority to TID
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0header value is another 802.11 detail, = best left to the 802.11
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specification.=C2=A0 For example: in th= e 802.11 specification the TID
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0field is specified to be 4 bits in the = header.=C2=A0 The use of these 4
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bits to carry the User Priority informa= tion is an internal
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specification of 802.11 and potentially= subject to change..
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Suggest using terminology fro= m the MAC SAP in IEEE Std
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.=C2=A0 This clau= se intentionally abstracts the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s inte= rnal operation, while describing
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specifically the behavior required by t= he user.=C2=A0 For example, the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0following text:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header= , the value of the Subtype sub-field in
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Frame Control field MUST be set to = 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) s= ub-field of the QoS Control
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0field of the 802.11 header MUST be set = to binary 001 (i.e.=C2=A0 User
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Priority 'Background', QoS Acce= ss Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > could be replaced by:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 8= 02.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of 1, which specifies the use of = QoS with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0user priority.=E2=80=9D
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Thanks again.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 P= M Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> wrote:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has ente= red the following ballot position for
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-8= 0211ocb-49: Discuss
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > When responding, please keep = the subject line intact and reply
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to all
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > email addresses included in t= he To and CC lines. (Feel free to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cut this
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > introductory paragraph, howev= er.)
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Please refer to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https:/= /www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > for more information about IE= SG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > The document, along with othe= r ballot positions, can be found
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb= /
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------= -------------------------------
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > DISCUSS:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------= -------------------------------
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > One point on this sentence, w= hich I believe was also commented
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the TSV-ART
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > sec 4.2: "The mapping to= the 802.11 data service MUST use a
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 'priority= 9; value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 'Background&= #39; user priority."
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > I don't think this should= be a MUST requirement. I assume the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assumption here
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > is that IP traffic is always = some "random" data that is less
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0important than
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > other V2V communication. Howe= ver, this is a generic mapping
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document and should
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > therefore probably not make s= uch an assumption (or at least it
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would need to be
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > spelled out).
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------= -------------------------------
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > COMMENT:
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------= -------------------------------
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > One editorial high level comm= ent: I seams like all text that
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0was somehow deemed
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > as out fo scope for the main = body of this document got stuffed
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0into the
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > appendix. Please consider rem= oving what is really not needed
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in this document
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > as these pages also take revi= ew and RFC Editor time,
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0especially as they seem to
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > have received less review and= therefore have more nits.
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.= A=C2=A0 A future improvement/in OCB
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mode. A future
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > improvement/
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > --
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Best Regards
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Nabil Benamar
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Associate Professor
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Department of Computer Scienc= es
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > School of Technology
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Moulay Ismail University
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > Meknes. Morocco
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> --
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Best Regards
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Nabil Benamar
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Associate Professor
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Department of Computer Sciences >>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> School of Technology
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Moulay Ismail University
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Meknes. Morocco
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________= ________
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its mailing list
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0its@ietf.org <mailto:its@ietf.org>
>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/its
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> John Kenney
>>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher
>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs
>>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue
>>>> Mountain View, CA 94043
>>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> its mailing list
>>> its@ietf.org=
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its<= br> >
>

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
--
<= div>
John Kenney
Director and Sr. Principal Researcher
Toyota InfoTech Labs
465 Bernardo Avenue
Mountain View, CA 94043
Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644
<= /div>
--00000000000065d35a058db9fb2d-- From nobody Tue Jul 16 01:36:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A61B12018A; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:36:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5NesA76vYsj; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A53D4120183; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 01:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6G8aZgf029860; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:36:35 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D75F020432C; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:36:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1B3204317; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:36:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.91] ([132.166.86.91]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6G8aZIs000358; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:36:35 +0200 To: Russ Housley Cc: Nabil Benamar , Mirja Kuehlewind , IESG , its References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 10:36:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:36:42 -0000 Russ, Le 15/07/2019 à 16:38, Russ Housley a écrit : > Alex: > > Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the values used for the QoS bits. > > What would you like to see instead of the second MUST? > > Russ I would like to see something like this: OLD: > IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data > frames whose format is specified in IEEE 802.11 spec > [IEEE-802.11-2016]. > > The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by > a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC > header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination > (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > 'Background' user priority. NEW: > The IPv6 packets transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded > by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In > the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol > Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field > MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). > > In open systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header > transmitted over 802.11-OCB media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. > In such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST > understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 Data > headers. Receivers SHOULD NOT drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 > QoS Data headers. > > In closed systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header > transmitted over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an 802.11 QoS Data > header. In such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB > MUST understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS > Data headers. In such systems, it is required that the mapping to > the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which > specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. > > The frame format of 802.11 Data headers and QoS Data headers is > specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec [IEEE-802.11-2016]. Alex > >> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 13/07/2019 à 04:53, Russ Housley a écrit : >>> Alex: >>> I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only added a phrase of rationale. >> >> I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of rationale was added. >> >> The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is logical. >> >> I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. >> >> (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the MUST. I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale within a limited bandwidth.) >> >> (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured. The number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not thousands. Within these dimensions, criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An increase in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be even more sufficient) >> >> (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety can be realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to perform and would overcome QoS priorities.) >> >> Alex >> >>> Russ >>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>>> >>>> hats and freedoms are valuable. >>>> >>>> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> Le 11/07/2019 à 17:51, Russ Housley a écrit : >>>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale be provided: >>>>> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by >>>>> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC >>>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination >>>>> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to >>>>> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>>> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving >>>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >>>>> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. >>>>> Russ >>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi All: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access priority over other communications [47 CFR § 90.377(d)] . I would be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mirja >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Hi Mirja, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views >>>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to >>>>>> avoid confusion. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> > Hi Nabil, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised >>>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather >>>>>> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST >>>>>> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory >>>>>> requirement? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Mirja >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Hi Mirja, >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed >>>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members >>>>>> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us >>>>>> clarify this point. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Here is what we got from them: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with >>>>>> “User Priority” of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the >>>>>> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 >>>>>> specification. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not >>>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID >>>>>> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 >>>>>> specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID >>>>>> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header. The use of these 4 >>>>>> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal >>>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std >>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the >>>>>> exact details of 802..11’s internal operation, while describing >>>>>> specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, the >>>>>> following text: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > “In the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field in >>>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the >>>>>> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control >>>>>> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User >>>>>> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').” >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > could be replaced by: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > “The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a ‘priority’ >>>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a “Background” >>>>>> user priority.” >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Thanks again. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja Kühlewind via Datatracker >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> > > Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply >>>>>> to all >>>>>> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >>>>>> cut this >>>>>> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Please refer to >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >>>>>> here: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> > > DISCUSS: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented >>>>>> in the TSV-ART >>>>>> > > review (Thanks Jörg!): >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>>>> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >>>>>> > > 'Background' user priority." >>>>>> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the >>>>>> assumption here >>>>>> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less >>>>>> important than >>>>>> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping >>>>>> document and should >>>>>> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it >>>>>> would need to be >>>>>> > > spelled out). >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> > > COMMENT: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that >>>>>> was somehow deemed >>>>>> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed >>>>>> into the >>>>>> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed >>>>>> in this document >>>>>> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, >>>>>> especially as they seem to >>>>>> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB >>>>>> mode. A future >>>>>> > > improvement/ >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > -- >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Best Regards >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Nabil Benamar >>>>>> > > Associate Professor >>>>>> > > Department of Computer Sciences >>>>>> > > School of Technology >>>>>> > > Moulay Ismail University >>>>>> > > Meknes. Morocco >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -- >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Best Regards >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Nabil Benamar >>>>>> > Associate Professor >>>>>> > Department of Computer Sciences >>>>>> > School of Technology >>>>>> > Moulay Ismail University >>>>>> > Meknes. Morocco >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> its mailing list >>>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> John Kenney >>>>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs >>>>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue >>>>>> Mountain View, CA 94043 >>>>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> its mailing list >>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> _______________________________________________ >> its mailing list >> its@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > From nobody Tue Jul 16 09:57:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE170120173 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 09:57:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XhCws_lFWqDS for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 09:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A350712022A for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 09:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A21300AF9 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:37:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id WOBA2mYMdHLp for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.31.98.182] (50-246-105-163-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.246.105.163]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 00EB73004A7; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:56:50 -0400 Cc: Nabil Benamar , Mirja Kuehlewind , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:57:02 -0000 Alex: I am very uncomfortable with your proposed text. IEEE 802.11-OCB uses = special-purpose frequency allocation. I think the text about open vs. = closed systems is going to add confusion, not clarity. Russ > On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > Russ, >=20 > Le 15/07/2019 =C3=A0 16:38, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >> Alex: >> Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the values used = for the QoS bits. >> What would you like to see instead of the second MUST? >> Russ >=20 > I would like to see something like this: >=20 > OLD: >> IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data >> frames whose format is specified in IEEE 802.11 spec >> [IEEE-802.11-2016]. >> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded = by >> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the = LLC >> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination >> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to >> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >> 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >> 'Background' user priority. >=20 > NEW: >> The IPv6 packets transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded >> by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In >> the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol >> Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field >> MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). >> In open systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header >> transmitted over 802.11-OCB media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. >> In such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST >> understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 Data >> headers. Receivers SHOULD NOT drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 >> QoS Data headers. >> In closed systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header >> transmitted over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an 802.11 QoS Data >> header. In such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB >> MUST understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS >> Data headers. In such systems, it is required that the mapping to >> the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which >> specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. >> The frame format of 802.11 Data headers and QoS Data headers is >> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec [IEEE-802.11-2016]. >=20 > Alex >=20 >>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>>> Alex: >>>> I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only added a phrase = of rationale. >>>=20 >>> I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of = rationale was added. >>>=20 >>> The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is logical. >>>=20 >>> I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. >>>=20 >>> (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the MUST. = I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of = safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an = alternative to satisfy the rationale within a limited bandwidth.) >>>=20 >>> (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at = 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured. The = number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is less = than hundreds, and certainly not thousands. Within these dimensions, = criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An = increase in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be = even more sufficient) >>>=20 >>> (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety can be = realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS priorities; radio jamming = and IP security attacks are easy to perform and would overcome QoS = priorities.) >>>=20 >>> Alex >>>=20 >>>> Russ >>>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> hats and freedoms are valuable. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft = IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Alex >>>>>=20 >>>>> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>>>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of = rationale be provided: >>>>>> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately = preceded by >>>>>> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In = the LLC >>>>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination >>>>>> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set = to >>>>>> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST = use a >>>>>> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving >>>>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >>>>>> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. >>>>>> Russ >>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney = > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hi All: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's = important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public = regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, = FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would = be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Best Regards, >>>>>>> John >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = > wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>> > = wrote: >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Hi Mirja, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different = views >>>>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text = to >>>>>>> avoid confusion. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> > Hi Nabil, >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly = advised >>>>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is = rather >>>>>>> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a = MUST >>>>>>> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory >>>>>>> requirement? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Mirja >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>> > = wrote: >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Hi Mirja, >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed >>>>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 = members >>>>>>> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to = help us >>>>>>> clarify this point. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Here is what we got from them: >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted = with >>>>>>> =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 = or 2), and leave the >>>>>>> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 >>>>>>> specification. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer = (not >>>>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID >>>>>>> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the = 802.11 >>>>>>> specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the = TID >>>>>>> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header. The use of = these 4 >>>>>>> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal >>>>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std >>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts = the >>>>>>> exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while = describing >>>>>>> specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, = the >>>>>>> following text: >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype = sub-field in >>>>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); = the >>>>>>> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS = Control >>>>>>> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. = User >>>>>>> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > could be replaced by: >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use = a =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 >>>>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a = =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D >>>>>>> user priority.=E2=80=9D >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Thanks again. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot = position for >>>>>>> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and = reply >>>>>>> to all >>>>>>> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel = free to >>>>>>> cut this >>>>>>> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Please refer to >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>>> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be = found >>>>>>> here: >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> > > DISCUSS: >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also = commented >>>>>>> in the TSV-ART >>>>>>> > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use = a >>>>>>> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a >>>>>>> > > 'Background' user priority." >>>>>>> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume = the >>>>>>> assumption here >>>>>>> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is = less >>>>>>> important than >>>>>>> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic = mapping >>>>>>> document and should >>>>>>> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at = least it >>>>>>> would need to be >>>>>>> > > spelled out). >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> > > COMMENT: >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text = that >>>>>>> was somehow deemed >>>>>>> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got = stuffed >>>>>>> into the >>>>>>> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not = needed >>>>>>> in this document >>>>>>> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, >>>>>>> especially as they seem to >>>>>>> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in = OCB >>>>>>> mode. A future >>>>>>> > > improvement/ >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > -- >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Best Regards >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > Nabil Benamar >>>>>>> > > Associate Professor >>>>>>> > > Department of Computer Sciences >>>>>>> > > School of Technology >>>>>>> > > Moulay Ismail University >>>>>>> > > Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > -- >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Best Regards >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Nabil Benamar >>>>>>> > Associate Professor >>>>>>> > Department of Computer Sciences >>>>>>> > School of Technology >>>>>>> > Moulay Ismail University >>>>>>> > Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> its mailing list >>>>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> --=20 >>>>>>> John Kenney >>>>>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs >>>>>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue >>>>>>> Mountain View, CA 94043 >>>>>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> its mailing list >>>>>> its@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >=20 > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Tue Jul 16 12:42:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870DD12004C for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wcqfvoYLVqT1 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F6C31200C5 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E470300AED for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:22:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5LOWaJ9Oyq1z for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (unknown [138.88.156.37]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 05A983004A7; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:41:58 -0400 Cc: Nabil Benamar , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:42:08 -0000 Mirja: The safety messages defined in IEEE 1902.2 do not use IP, but you are = right that this document should not have to change if such a thing were = to be defined in the future. I suggest: The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service SHOULD use a 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ > On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >=20 > Hi Russ, >=20 > This would also be good and address my discuss. However, IP is not = really a specific service and I could well imagine that in future there = could also be a more critical service that is implemented over IP (for = whatever reason). To leave this as generic as possible, which I think a = mapping document should be, I would recommend to us SHOULD or no = normative language at all. >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 11. Jul 2019, at 17:51, Russ Housley wrote: >>=20 >> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale = be provided: >>=20 >> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded = by >> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the = LLC >> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination >> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to >> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving >> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. =20 >>=20 >> Russ >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi All: >>>=20 >>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's = important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public = regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, = FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would = be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>>=20 >>> Best Regards, >>> John >>>=20 >>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>=20 >>> Mirja >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>=20 >>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views = were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid = confusion. >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>>> Hi Nabil, >>>>=20 >>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you = _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that = is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you = further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? >>>>=20 >>>> Mirja >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. >>>>>=20 >>>>> You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively = on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy = Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Here is what we got from them: >>>>>=20 >>>>> . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with = =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and = leave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 = specification. >>>>>=20 >>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a = binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value = is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For = example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 = bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority = information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially = subject to change..=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 = Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of = 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the = behavior required by the user. For example, the following text: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field = in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value = of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of = the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority = 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> could be replaced by: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks again. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker wrote: >>>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for >>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>>>=20 >>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all >>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: >>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>=20 >>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in = the TSV-ART >>>>> review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>>>>=20 >>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>>> 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >>>>> 'Background' user priority." >>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the = assumption here >>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less = important than >>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping = document and should >>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it = would need to be >>>>> spelled out). >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> COMMENT: >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>=20 >>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was = somehow deemed >>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed = into the >>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in = this document >>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as = they seem to >>>>> have received less review and therefore have more nits. >>>>>=20 >>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. = A future >>>>> improvement/ >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> --=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best Regards >>>>>=20 >>>>> Nabil Benamar >>>>> Associate Professor >>>>> Department of Computer Sciences >>>>> School of Technology >>>>> Moulay Ismail University=20 >>>>> Meknes. Morocco >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Best Regards >>>>=20 >>>> Nabil Benamar >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Computer Sciences >>>> School of Technology >>>> Moulay Ismail University=20 >>>> Meknes. Morocco >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> John Kenney >>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>> Toyota InfoTech Labs >>> 465 Bernardo Avenue >>> Mountain View, CA 94043 >>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Jul 16 12:52:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E546B120113; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id igtsrpGsWVWh; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 128B31200C5; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6GJqfMl034478; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:52:41 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 09B00204850; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:52:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D6D204766; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:52:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.86.7] ([132.166.86.7]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6GJqdLv016026; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:52:40 +0200 To: Russ Housley Cc: Nabil Benamar , Mirja Kuehlewind , IESG , its References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:52:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:52:47 -0000 Russ, Sorry if the open-vs-closed text adds no clarity, but I do not know how to express it better. I think the special-purpose frequency allocation for 802.11-OCB does not impose QoS Data headers, even though it does tell that range is for safety applications for ITS. I may be wrong though. Finally, as far as I know, there are no IPv6-over-OCB implementations with QoS Data headers, even if there are many implementations of CAM and BSM over 802.11-OCB with such headers. But I will be happy to stand corrected if this were the case: is there an implementation of IPv6-over-OCB with QoS Data headers? Alex Le 16/07/2019 à 18:56, Russ Housley a écrit : > Alex: > > I am very uncomfortable with your proposed text. IEEE 802.11-OCB > uses special-purpose frequency allocation. I think the text about > open vs. closed systems is going to add confusion, not clarity. > > Russ > > >> On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >> Russ, >> >> Le 15/07/2019 à 16:38, Russ Housley a écrit : >>> Alex: Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the >>> values used for the QoS bits. What would you like to see instead >>> of the second MUST? Russ >> >> I would like to see something like this: >> >> OLD: >>> IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data >>> frames whose format is specified in IEEE 802.11 spec >>> [IEEE-802.11-2016]. The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are >>> immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and >>> an 802.11 header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the >>> EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the >>> value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The >>> mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of >>> 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user >>> priority. >> >> NEW: >>> The IPv6 packets transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately >>> preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 >>> header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType >>> Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the >>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). In open systems, the >>> 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted over 802.11-OCB >>> media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. In such systems, receivers >>> of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST understand and fully parse IP >>> packets preceded by 802.11 Data headers. Receivers SHOULD NOT >>> drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data headers. In closed >>> systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted >>> over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an 802.11 QoS Data header. In >>> such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST >>> understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data >>> headers. In such systems, it is required that the mapping to the >>> 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which >>> specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. The >>> frame format of 802.11 Data headers and QoS Data headers is >>> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec [IEEE-802.11-2016]. >> >> Alex >> >>>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 13/07/2019 à 04:53, Russ Housley a écrit : >>>>> Alex: I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only >>>>> added a phrase of rationale. >>>> >>>> I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase >>>> of rationale was added. >>>> >>>> The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is >>>> logical. >>>> >>>> I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. >>>> >>>> (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the >>>> MUST. I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and >>>> criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS >>>> priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale >>>> within a limited bandwidth.) >>>> >>>> (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks >>>> at 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km >>>> measured. The number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of >>>> that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not >>>> thousands. Within these dimensions, criticality and >>>> time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An increase >>>> in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be >>>> even more sufficient) >>>> >>>> (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety >>>> can be realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS >>>> priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to >>>> perform and would overcome QoS priorities.) >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>>> Russ >>>>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> hats and freedoms are valuable. >>>>>> >>>>>> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft >>>>>> IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. >>>>>> >>>>>> Alex >>>>>> >>>>>> Le 11/07/2019 à 17:51, Russ Housley a écrit : >>>>>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit >>>>>>> of rationale be provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on >>>>>>> 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link >>>>>>> Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC >>>>>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol >>>>>>> Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the >>>>>>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to >>>>>>> the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1 >>>>>>> (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving >>>>>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and >>>>>>> time-sensitive traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ >>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi All: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, >>>>>>>> it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will >>>>>>>> typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP >>>>>>>> safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC >>>>>>>> regulations require that such safety communications >>>>>>>> have access priority over other communications [47 CFR >>>>>>>> § 90.377(d)] . I would be cautious about removing the >>>>>>>> current language unless you are convinced that doing >>>>>>>> so will not adversely affect non-IP safety >>>>>>>> communications. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best Regards, John >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and >>>>>>>>> different views >>>>>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove >>>>>>>> this text to avoid confusion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi Nabil, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy >>>>>>>>> mainly advised >>>>>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question >>>>>>>> is rather _if_ that is needed and if it is really >>>>>>>> appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further explain >>>>>>>> why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You raised a very important point that was >>>>>>>>>> discussed >>>>>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 >>>>>>>> members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a >>>>>>>> review to help us clarify this point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Here is what we got from them: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> . Suggest to simply state that the data is >>>>>>>>>> transmitted with >>>>>>>> “User Priority” of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and >>>>>>>> leave the internal details of how this is accomplished >>>>>>>> to the 802.11 specification. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple >>>>>>>>>> integer (not >>>>>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority >>>>>>>> to TID header value is another 802.11 detail, best >>>>>>>> left to the 802.11 specification. For example: in the >>>>>>>> 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be >>>>>>>> 4 bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry >>>>>>>> the User Priority information is an internal >>>>>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to >>>>>>>> change.. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE >>>>>>>>>> Std >>>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally >>>>>>>> abstracts the exact details of 802..11’s internal >>>>>>>> operation, while describing specifically the behavior >>>>>>>> required by the user. For example, the following >>>>>>>> text: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “In the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype >>>>>>>>>> sub-field in >>>>>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS >>>>>>>> Data'); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) >>>>>>>> sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header >>>>>>>> MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority >>>>>>>> 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> could be replaced by: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> “The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>>>>>>>> ‘priority’ >>>>>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a >>>>>>>> “Background” user priority.” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja Kühlewind via >>>>>>>>>> Datatracker >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot >>>>>>>>>> position for >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line >>>>>>>>>> intact and reply >>>>>>>> to all >>>>>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. >>>>>>>>>> (Feel free to >>>>>>>> cut this >>>>>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Please refer to >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, >>>>>>>>>> can be found >>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> DISCUSS: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was >>>>>>>>>> also commented >>>>>>>> in the TSV-ART >>>>>>>>>> review (Thanks Jörg!): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service >>>>>>>>>> MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies >>>>>>>>>> the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority." >>>>>>>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I >>>>>>>>>> assume the >>>>>>>> assumption here >>>>>>>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data >>>>>>>>>> that is less >>>>>>>> important than >>>>>>>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic >>>>>>>>>> mapping >>>>>>>> document and should >>>>>>>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or >>>>>>>>>> at least it >>>>>>>> would need to be >>>>>>>>>> spelled out). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> COMMENT: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all >>>>>>>>>> text that >>>>>>>> was somehow deemed >>>>>>>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document >>>>>>>>>> got stuffed >>>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really >>>>>>>>>> not needed >>>>>>>> in this document >>>>>>>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor >>>>>>>>>> time, >>>>>>>> especially as they seem to >>>>>>>>>> have received less review and therefore have more >>>>>>>>>> nits. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future >>>>>>>>>> improvement/in OCB >>>>>>>> mode. A future >>>>>>>>>> improvement/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of >>>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay >>>>>>>>>> Ismail University Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of >>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail >>>>>>>>> University Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, >>>>>>>> CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its >>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing >>>> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >> >> _______________________________________________ its mailing list >> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > From nobody Tue Jul 16 13:07:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4706120116 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:07:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2ltwhoPzRVW for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F626120114 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id e20so11698766iob.9 for ; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:07:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+1k46b1WfuM+5oDm6RMVpla4KcjfdlOi+DKTowz24hM=; b=QLo7k2J71hVj17/JaPI0m3flhFKpVnCPBtL8rFQajue9De0WA+9Y2/6gSNHOjYVlOR m68yNPM8vhidv4vglYs9JZPzJAp//tqSvcf5ZTH+RZLH4tKysYAlxGMxFv/tQDoF+aTI b2TEuiz1p1C6SBR0wwAx98vGnxwVAdrsCR8L1YvKfZMrJrEA405yIpqLGiHQZe+2RnqY 7jb0bmemBA29fog2z8rden/dBXnSO6i5tkHGOYxP18pAAR9Fq9MHtoRC7++at/LApsNn Rwyta4io3w4ONs5nPk9mz5hA1KHyMTne7zYg2mDdrXMBGKDkEXS3D1oqeRJbHCGDkULB oruA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+1k46b1WfuM+5oDm6RMVpla4KcjfdlOi+DKTowz24hM=; b=NO5w+HZuHWhk42MeZ093sfHBiMYUZbHUnJKG3weph/scS7zugwUTW0ps8XHfXpDTPF psdLcnXDSQQ+TLYCd7wZdrUPFTym00rqCSo0sTPXRFXjzX4EJqA5ZJQFBuPsqQVEh2lS EhimYtxVRxtZ+h/2j+z9E3FH64IaGoO5cw6KYcexqPqqKwUHg1KbJ02/cjg//sCMlS4o /gehYRyYzPIIjBRlkZF1yXVl/IlLrqS0GpppDghhrnbYuHo7TJbDjK79PMHNhZWYTF59 Iyq8fDNRiLyznm30xyl9XFcafN5idgBo93N8MFMxMXJaqSaodDatu4fMx2OrT6Z43Ntc 4Qow== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXLBuId1xHyziIQaC1w2YKW8XKlx5Aai72K3cCCkhWQoM50uowH SQqjG1lwPefl5lSuLHozT7zqjjlNKXOZ/ErV03FX45/iYUg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwhKp7sAYUWmE6nmuYeIgOz6ts+IiRcP07bQ7BNH8ZnuQPohQ0GVVRhHn6opRMR3cM9fsdjcL4WjUFivlZvvPs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:cf:: with SMTP id w15mr37282594jao.136.1563307659205; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:07:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:07:27 +0100 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , IESG , its Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3b298058dd1eda5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:07:45 -0000 --000000000000b3b298058dd1eda5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Russ, Mirja, I'm fine with this text. Mirja, please let me know if it is OK for you so that I include this change in the next version of the draft. On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 8:42 PM Russ Housley wrote: > Mirja: > > The safety messages defined in IEEE 1902.2 do not use IP, but you are > right that this document should not have to change if such a thing were t= o > be defined in the future. > > I suggest: > > The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by > a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC > header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination > (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service SHOULD use a > 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reservin= g > higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. > > Russ > > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: > > > > Hi Russ, > > > > This would also be good and address my discuss. However, IP is not > really a specific service and I could well imagine that in future there > could also be a more critical service that is implemented over IP (for > whatever reason). To leave this as generic as possible, which I think a > mapping document should be, I would recommend to us SHOULD or no normativ= e > language at all. > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > >> On 11. Jul 2019, at 17:51, Russ Housley wrote: > >> > >> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale > be provided: > >> > >> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded b= y > >> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LL= C > >> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination > >> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > >> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), > reserving > >> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > >> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. > >> > >> Russ > >> > >> > >>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi All: > >>> > >>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's importan= t > to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated spectr= um > with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC regulations > require that such safety communications have access priority over other > communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would be cautious about rem= oving > the current language unless you are convinced that doing so will not > adversely affect non-IP safety communications. > >>> > >>> Best Regards, > >>> John > >>> > >>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: > >>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. > >>> > >>> Mirja > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hi Mirja, > >>>> > >>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views wer= e > shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid confusi= on. > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > wrote: > >>>> Hi Nabil, > >>>> > >>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised you > _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ that is > needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you furthe= r > explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? > >>>> > >>>> Mirja > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Hi Mirja, > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. > >>>>> > >>>>> You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively on > the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy Stanl= y) > to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here is what we got from them: > >>>>> > >>>>> . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with =E2=80= =9CUser > Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and leave the inter= nal > details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 specification. > >>>>> > >>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a > binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value = is > another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For exampl= e: > in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 bits in th= e > header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority information i= s > an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. > >>>>> > >>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std 802.11-2016 > Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact details of > 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifically the b= ehavior > required by the user. For example, the following text: > >>>>> > >>>>> =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field i= n the > Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the value of the > Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 > header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority 'Background', QoS > Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D > >>>>> > >>>>> could be replaced by: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a =E2=80= =98priority=E2=80=99 value > of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D = user priority.=E2=80=9D > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks again. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker= < > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > >>>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for > >>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > >>>>> > >>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to a= ll > >>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > this > >>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > >>>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> DISCUSS: > >>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented in > the TSV-ART > >>>>> review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > >>>>> > >>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >>>>> 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > >>>>> 'Background' user priority." > >>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the > assumption here > >>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less > important than > >>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping documen= t > and should > >>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it woul= d > need to be > >>>>> spelled out). > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> COMMENT: > >>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> > >>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was > somehow deemed > >>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into > the > >>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in thi= s > document > >>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as > they seem to > >>>>> have received less review and therefore have more nits. > >>>>> > >>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A > future > >>>>> improvement/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> Best Regards > >>>>> > >>>>> Nabil Benamar > >>>>> Associate Professor > >>>>> Department of Computer Sciences > >>>>> School of Technology > >>>>> Moulay Ismail University > >>>>> Meknes. Morocco > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> Best Regards > >>>> > >>>> Nabil Benamar > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Department of Computer Sciences > >>>> School of Technology > >>>> Moulay Ismail University > >>>> Meknes. Morocco > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> its mailing list > >>> its@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> John Kenney > >>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher > >>> Toyota InfoTech Labs > >>> 465 Bernardo Avenue > >>> Mountain View, CA 94043 > >>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 > >> > > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000b3b298058dd1eda5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ru= ss, Mirja,


I'm fine with this text.

Mirja, please let me know if i= t is OK for you so that I include this change in the next version of the dr= aft.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 8:42 PM Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:
Mirja:

The safety messages defined in IEEE 1902.2 do not use IP, but you are right= that this document should not have to change if such a thing were to be de= fined in the future.

I suggest:

=C2=A0 The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded b= y
=C2=A0 a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header.=C2=A0 In t= he LLC
=C2=A0 header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination=
=C2=A0 (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to =C2=A0 0x86DD (IPv6).=C2=A0 The mapping to the 802.11 data service SHOULD u= se a
=C2=A0 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user = priority), reserving
=C2=A0 higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive
=C2=A0 traffic [IEEE-1609.2].

Russ

> On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote: >
> Hi Russ,
>
> This would also be good and address my discuss. However, IP is not rea= lly a specific service and I could well imagine that in future there could = also be a more critical service that is implemented over IP (for whatever r= eason). To leave this as generic as possible, which I think a mapping docum= ent should be, I would recommend to us SHOULD or no normative language at a= ll.
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
>> On 11. Jul 2019, at 17:51, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of ration= ale be provided:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediat= ely preceded by
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 head= er.=C2=A0 In the LLC
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUS= T be set to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A00x86DD (IPv6).=C2=A0 The mapping to the 802.11 data se= rvice MUST use a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Backgro= und' user priority), reserving
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0higher priority values for safety-critical and time-se= nsitive
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic [IEEE-1609.2].=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>>
>> Russ
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney <jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com= > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All:
>>>
>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it'= ;s important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public regul= ated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC reg= ulations require that such safety communications have access priority over = other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] .=C2=A0 I would be cautious = about removing the current language unless you are convinced that doing so = will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net&g= t; wrote:
>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option.
>>>
>>> Mirja
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma= > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>
>>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and different= views were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avo= id confusion.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net= > wrote:
>>>> Hi Nabil,
>>>>
>>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly ad= vised you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_= that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you= further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement?
>>>>
>>>> Mirja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma<= /a>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mirja,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your review and comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> You raised a very important point that was discussed e= xtensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to D= orothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. >>>>>
>>>>> Here is what we got from them:
>>>>>
>>>>> .=C2=A0 Suggest to simply state that the data is trans= mitted with =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or= 2), and leave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.= 11 specification.
>>>>>
>>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple integ= er (not a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID heade= r value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification.=C2= =A0 For example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to = be 4 bits in the header.=C2=A0 The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Pr= iority information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially s= ubject to change..
>>>>>
>>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std= 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.=C2=A0 This clause intentionally abstracts the exac= t details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing specifi= cally the behavior required by the user.=C2=A0 For example, the following t= ext:
>>>>>
>>>>> =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtyp= e sub-field in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data= '); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Cont= rol field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.=C2=A0 User P= riority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80= =9D
>>>>>
>>>>> could be replaced by:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST u= se a =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind vi= a Datatracker <nor= eply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot = position for
>>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact a= nd reply to all
>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel= free to cut this
>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please refer to https:= //www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT po= sitions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can b= e found here:
>>>>> https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
>>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
>>>>>
>>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was also c= ommented in the TSV-ART
>>>>> review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):
>>>>>
>>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service = MUST use a
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0'priority' value of 1, which speci= fies the use of QoS with a
>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0'Background' user priority."<= br> >>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I= assume the assumption here
>>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" d= ata that is less important than
>>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic ma= pping document and should
>>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at = least it would need to be
>>>>> spelled out).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
>>>>> COMMENT:
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
>>>>>
>>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all tex= t that was somehow deemed
>>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document got= stuffed into the
>>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really not = needed in this document
>>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, e= specially as they seem to
>>>>> have received less review and therefore have more nits= .
>>>>>
>>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A=C2=A0 A future improvem= ent/in OCB mode. A future
>>>>> improvement/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Nabil Benamar
>>>>> Associate Professor
>>>>> Department of Computer Sciences
>>>>> School of Technology
>>>>> Moulay Ismail University
>>>>> Meknes. Morocco
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards
>>>>
>>>> Nabil Benamar
>>>> Associate Professor
>>>> Department of Computer Sciences
>>>> School of Technology
>>>> Moulay Ismail University
>>>> Meknes. Morocco
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> its mailing list
>>> its@ietf.org=
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its<= br> >>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Kenney
>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher
>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs
>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue
>>> Mountain View, CA 94043
>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644
>>
>



--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


--000000000000b3b298058dd1eda5-- From nobody Tue Jul 16 13:21:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4910E1200C4; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:21:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FWb-r9zBRQ2Y; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C3C1120041; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c8690005de75fee217f5885.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c86:9000:5de7:5fee:217f:5885]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hnTwV-0004UH-7G; Tue, 16 Jul 2019 22:20:55 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 22:20:54 +0200 Cc: Russ Housley , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> To: Nabil Benamar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1563308458;9dc5b12c; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hnTwV-0004UH-7G Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:21:02 -0000 Hi everybody, Yes, this text would work for me. Thanks! Mirja > On 16. Jul 2019, at 22:07, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >=20 > Hi Russ, Mirja, >=20 >=20 > I'm fine with this text. >=20 > Mirja, please let me know if it is OK for you so that I include this = change in the next version of the draft. >=20 > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 8:42 PM Russ Housley = wrote: > Mirja: >=20 > The safety messages defined in IEEE 1902.2 do not use IP, but you are = right that this document should not have to change if such a thing were = to be defined in the future. >=20 > I suggest: >=20 > The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded = by > a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the = LLC > header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination > (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service SHOULD use a > 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving > higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. >=20 > Russ >=20 > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 11:57 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: > >=20 > > Hi Russ, > >=20 > > This would also be good and address my discuss. However, IP is not = really a specific service and I could well imagine that in future there = could also be a more critical service that is implemented over IP (for = whatever reason). To leave this as generic as possible, which I think a = mapping document should be, I would recommend to us SHOULD or no = normative language at all. > >=20 > > Mirja > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >> On 11. Jul 2019, at 17:51, Russ Housley = wrote: > >>=20 > >> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of = rationale be provided: > >>=20 > >> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately = preceded by > >> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the = LLC > >> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination > >> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > >> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving > >> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > >> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. =20 > >>=20 > >> Russ > >>=20 > >>=20 > >>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney = wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> Hi All: > >>>=20 > >>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's = important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public = regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, = FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would = be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. > >>>=20 > >>> Best Regards, > >>> John > >>>=20 > >>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: > >>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. > >>>=20 > >>> Mirja > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar = wrote: > >>>>=20 > >>>> Hi Mirja, > >>>>=20 > >>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and different views = were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text to avoid = confusion. > >>>>=20 > >>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: > >>>> Hi Nabil, > >>>>=20 > >>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised = you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is rather _if_ = that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a MUST here. Can = you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? > >>>>=20 > >>>> Mirja > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar = wrote: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Hi Mirja, > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> You raised a very important point that was discussed extensively = on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members (thanks to Dorothy = Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us clarify this point. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Here is what we got from them: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted with = =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and = leave the internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 = specification. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple integer (not a = binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID header value = is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 specification. For = example: in the 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be 4 = bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry the User Priority = information is an internal specification of 802.11 and potentially = subject to change..=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std = 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts the exact = details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while describing = specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, the = following text: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype = sub-field in the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); = the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS Control = field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User = Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> could be replaced by: > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Thanks again. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker wrote: > >>>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position = for > >>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply = to all > >>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to = cut this > >>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: > >>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> DISCUSS: > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was also commented = in the TSV-ART > >>>>> review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > >>>>> 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > >>>>> 'Background' user priority." > >>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume the = assumption here > >>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is less = important than > >>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping = document and should > >>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least it = would need to be > >>>>> spelled out). > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> COMMENT: > >>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was = somehow deemed > >>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed = into the > >>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in = this document > >>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially = as they seem to > >>>>> have received less review and therefore have more nits. > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB = mode. A future > >>>>> improvement/ > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> --=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Best Regards > >>>>>=20 > >>>>> Nabil Benamar > >>>>> Associate Professor > >>>>> Department of Computer Sciences > >>>>> School of Technology > >>>>> Moulay Ismail University=20 > >>>>> Meknes. Morocco > >>>>>=20 > >>>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> --=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>> Best Regards > >>>>=20 > >>>> Nabil Benamar > >>>> Associate Professor > >>>> Department of Computer Sciences > >>>> School of Technology > >>>> Moulay Ismail University=20 > >>>> Meknes. Morocco > >>>>=20 > >>>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> its mailing list > >>> its@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > >>>=20 > >>>=20 > >>> --=20 > >>> John Kenney > >>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher > >>> Toyota InfoTech Labs > >>> 465 Bernardo Avenue > >>> Mountain View, CA 94043 > >>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 > >>=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best Regards >=20 > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University=20 > Meknes. Morocco >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 17 07:35:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EB712049C for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:35:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4WmjJ_p7xD6P for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22AFA1204D4 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C18300AAF for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:15:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Ub7QgBz9YM9H for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (unknown [138.88.156.37]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A55D300AFB; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:35:02 -0400 Cc: Nabil Benamar , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:35:09 -0000 Mirja: Rick Roy suggested that the [IEEE-1609.2] reference was probably not = the best one. I suggest: The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service SHOULD use a 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive traffic, including the ones listed in [ETSI-sec-archi]. Russ From nobody Wed Jul 17 07:40:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7CA120724; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:40:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7codGXUEP2lL; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 433951206DC; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200116b82c292800c8cfb4743a3e4aca.dip.versatel-1u1.de ([2001:16b8:2c29:2800:c8cf:b474:3a3e:4aca]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1hnl6c-0003cz-0m; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:40:30 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:40:29 +0200 Cc: Nabil Benamar , IESG , its Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> To: Russ Housley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1563374434;c7941208; X-HE-SMSGID: 1hnl6c-0003cz-0m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:40:44 -0000 That is okay for me as well. As actually can judge the references here, = so I=E2=80=99ll trust in your expertise. Thanks! > On 17. Jul 2019, at 16:35, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 >=20 > Mirja: >=20 > Rick Roy suggested that the [IEEE-1609.2] reference was probably not = the best one. I suggest: >=20 > The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by > a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC > header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination > (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service SHOULD use a > 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving > higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > traffic, including the ones listed in [ETSI-sec-archi]. >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Jul 17 07:46:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF91120651; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:46:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MALFORMED_FREEMAIL=1.299, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Sc82MuprKc0; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:46:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1BF3120606; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6HEkbEl005814; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:46:37 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id CE4BB204DDA; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:46:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4B6B204E30; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:46:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6HEkbpC009215; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:46:37 +0200 Cc: Alissa Cooper , The IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Barry Leiba , cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org, ipwave-chairs@ietf.org References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <645edc7b-8768-92bf-564e-93f8aa9e78f5@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:46:37 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <645edc7b-8768-92bf-564e-93f8aa9e78f5@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:46:45 -0000 Hi, Sorry for following up on my own message, but I will be brief, and stop after it. Le 12/07/2019 à 13:02, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : [...] > - unknowns about the IPR status of the MAC generation techniques. >   The places to explore are Microsoft, ETSI and IEEE. I did some search. The writer of the method 'MAC Address Generation' in the draft confirmed to me by email that he had no IPR claims on this method, even though he separates his reponsibility from others' (he cant realistically know what others do, which is obvious). The ETSI ipr.etsi.org portal search on TS 102941 (the document that specifies the means to generate a privacy MAC address) issues no results. The IPR search on qpat issues several IPRs when the title keyword is "MAC Address Generation". Some of these methods, e.g. "CN105430118 B" or "JP2012222709 A", have an abstract that approaches a lot to what this method in IPv6-over-OCB does, even though there are differences in the number of bits used. For IEEE I do not know how to search IPR status and I surelyt dont have necessary credentials. I am not trained as a technical patent specialist, so that's how I see it. For reminder, the MAC Address generation in IPv6-over-OCB draft is: > A 'randomized' MAC address has the following characteristics: > > o Bit "Local/Global" set to "locally admninistered". > > o Bit "Unicast/Multicast" set to "Unicast". > > o The 46 remaining bits are set to a random value, using a random > number generator that meets the requirements of [RFC4086]. This is the best I could do for this IPR topic, I stop here. Alex From nobody Wed Jul 17 11:20:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30DF1208B3; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:20:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=AWTeyEaZ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=pHmlr8Fw Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IoosofxThh70; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A287012085E; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612F822201; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:20:18 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= from:message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; s=fm3; bh=IY59kwKM5omGauf0NjFQeuI 13iWyqeVB8kDVXpnp6yk=; b=AWTeyEaZwM8K89MhWbn2oxsNKAoJsti/vbeJP3H 2hLP65hh9U+6kPbn2rMU7GUY7m81wTnOwmcBOQzl5UcyY3EjVQLTTrQmD1rmO8ru Ns1SIOdkybj069b/F5HcCwbEgDzRcAcNOSV//uXVrMri1Qz/zfqYXnqszicQP2aZ D57Z2GL5WOWqfv0sgZEfRJLMHbY6X17lqYyVMtTMQm2V+HVk34MzZMaeHOfs5dob OKdbeItEscKcB9Qu5sR3WRdtTKjeXzRl7v2cpNri++VlRcYvmiXVoCCiC+CNNnUZ OghX4UmXLB2FmJwGhw9VPkmezT63raJ1s/NPGKIeM/W+hwg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=IY59kw KM5omGauf0NjFQeuI13iWyqeVB8kDVXpnp6yk=; b=pHmlr8FwUtFVphYf/lIty5 lYsTHu795a+SzfeqOHx7fVOKCso047GaXuBj9L5PRUh5+PGT4PwVRyM71Sv/D+QL NZ30uJW0Puukb92EzFWwiusiEhkvLIDLRe+aEdo/OjGe4JsYxZq/eejr7Bvz91gc SaYJw4LPAFr3RM1rz4q+Dh9pMlSVLzNLMBYfycvSCWx7N7V9O8avHNxmcflBGGrw 8IeHAP8SCkmGvz60RlfnK9wffN6yWtMY/mJQHZqHry4xQON09NyYQ8wHYXZumLko KuEFeuLTPrFYwct9yv7P1RVyFw02drzzlZgQKyUuo2LGsoSj2d5KyYPLbbyt0c4Q == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduvddrieefgddutddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffktgggufffjgfvfhfosegrtdhmrehhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhishhs rgcuvehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepudejfedrfeekrdduudejrdekleenucfrrghrrghm pehmrghilhhfrhhomheprghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinhenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from rtp-alcoop-nitro2.cisco.com (unknown [173.38.117.89]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A76EC8005B; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:20:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Alissa Cooper Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_712A6F23-BE13-4046-A1FE-20C65F8FB32E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:20:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its@ietf.org To: Nabil Benamar References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2CFE579C-7625-4875-AD4A-D5C26814287D@cooperw.in> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 18:20:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_712A6F23-BE13-4046-A1FE-20C65F8FB32E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Nabil, > On Jul 11, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Nabil Benamar = wrote: >=20 > Hi Alissa, >=20 > Are you referring to this text that may be added to the document? >=20 >=20 > "However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they = roam a lot, the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can leak = the presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, = if the same interface identifier is used with different prefixes as a = device/vehicle moves between different networks.=E2=80=9D That was part of it. I think this was the full text: "However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they = roam a lot, the use of a same Link Local Address over time can leak the = presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, if = the same interface identifier is used with different prefixes as a = device/vehicle moves between different networks. Hence, a vehicle should get hints about a change of environment (e.g. , = engine running, GPS, whatever) and renew the IID in LLAs. =20 I can make these proposed changes in a separate sub-section to emphasize = the concern and fix the privacy issue." I think to the extent there are hints the vehicle would use to trigger a = refresh of the IID, that idea is worth mentioning. Thanks, Alissa >=20 > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:52 PM Alissa Cooper > wrote: > Hi Nabil, >=20 >> On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Alissa, >>=20 >> Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker = > wrote: >> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html = >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ = >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> I support Roman's DISCUSS. >>=20 >> Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document = specifies. >> I think it would help to have a clear statement about the = circumstances under >> which each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC = 4941 >> addresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC = 8064 have >> functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle = change >> subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give = recommendations for >> when IIDs should be re-generated? >>=20 >> Here is the new text in -49 >>=20 >> An example of change policy is to change the MAC >> address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up. This = may >> help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level. Futhermore, for >> pricavy concerns ([RFC8065 ]) = recommends using an address generation >> scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer=20 >> address. >>=20 >=20 > I saw this when I read the document but it doesn=E2=80=99t address my = questions above. Also in your email to Roni you mentioned other = environmental factors that might trigger a change in link-local address, = so I was hoping to see that in the document text. >=20 > Thanks, > Alissa >=20 >> =20 >> =3D Section 5.2 =3D >>=20 >> "An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other documents." >>=20 >> Isn't the length specified for each of the two IID generation = mechanisms >> discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4? >>=20 >> We decided to remove this sentence from the text since ther is no = other document. >>=20 >> =3D Section 5.3 =3D >>=20 >> "The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' >> identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias >> identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality = of >> messages and trust between participants" >>=20 >> Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I = think this is >> incorrect. >>=20 >> I agree. >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Please expand OCB and STA on first use. >>=20 >> =3D Section 2 =3D >>=20 >> "Note: compliance with >> standards and regulations set in different countries when using = the >> 5.9GHz frequency band is required." >>=20 >> I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being referenced = here, but >> is there any specific reason why this needs to be said here? = Presumably users >> of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with = associated >> regulations governing their use. It's not clear to me that it makes = sense to >> note this here. >>=20 >> =3D Section 5.1.1 =3D >>=20 >> "Further >> correlation of this information with other data captured by other >> means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY = constitute >> privacy risks." >>=20 >> The normative MAY is not appropriate here. >>=20 >> =3D Section 5.2 =3D >>=20 >> "In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well >> defined renumbering events." >>=20 >> The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the = 802.11-OCB >> spec). >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >>=20 >> Best Regards >>=20 >> Nabil Benamar >> Associate Professor >> Department of Computer Sciences >> School of Technology >> Moulay Ismail University=20 >> Meknes. Morocco >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best Regards >=20 > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University=20 > Meknes. Morocco >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_712A6F23-BE13-4046-A1FE-20C65F8FB32E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Nabil,

On Jul 11, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Nabil Benamar = <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:

Hi = Alissa,

Are = you referring to this text that may be added to the document?


"However, there are some = specificities related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of the = same Link-Local Address over time can leak the presence of the same = vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, if the same interface = identifier is used with different prefixes as a device/vehicle moves = between different = networks.=E2=80=9D

That was part of it. I think this was the full = text:

"However, there are some specificities = related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of a same Link Local = Address over time can leak the presence of the same vehicle in multiple = places. Location tracking, if the same interface identifier is used = with different prefixes as a device/vehicle moves = between different networks.


Hence, a vehicle = should get hints about a change of environment (e.g. , engine running, = GPS, whatever) and renew the IID in LLAs.

 

I can make these proposed changes in = a separate sub-section to emphasize the concern and fix the privacy = issue."

I think to the extent there are hints the = vehicle would use to trigger a refresh of the IID, that idea is worth = mentioning.

Thanks,
Alissa


On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:52 PM Alissa Cooper = <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
Hi Nabil,

On Jul = 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:

Hi = Alissa,

Thanks again for = your review. Please see my answers below


On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via = Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the = following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line = intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To = and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory = paragraph, however.)


Please = refer to <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htmlfor more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.


The document, = along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80= 211ocb/



---------------------------------------------------------------= -------
DISCUSS:
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

I support Roman's DISCUSS.

Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties = of what this document specifies.
I think it would help to = have a clear statement about the circumstances under
which = each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941
addresses not considered because addresses generated = according to RFC 8064 have
functionally equivalent = properties given how often moving vehicle change
subnets? = For link-local addresses, is it possible to give recommendations for
when IIDs should be re-generated?

Here is the new text in -49

An example of change policy is =
to change the MAC
   address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up.  This may
   help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level.  Futhermore, for
   pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends =
using an address generation
   scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed =
link-layer 
   address.


I saw this when I read the document but = it doesn=E2=80=99t address my questions above. Also in your email to = Roni you mentioned other environmental factors that might trigger a = change in link-local address, so I was hoping to see that in the = document text.

Thanks,
Alissa

 
=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other = documents."

Isn't the length specified for = each of the two IID generation mechanisms
discussed in = Section 4.3 and 4.4?

We decided to remove this sentence from = the text since ther is no other document.

=3D Section 5.3 = =3D

"The demand for privacy protection of = vehicles' and drivers'
   identities, which = could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias
  =  identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality = of
   messages and trust between = participants"

Pseudonymity and = confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I think this is
incorrect.

I agree.


---------------------------------------------------------------= -------
COMMENT:
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

Please expand OCB and STA on first = use.

=3D Section 2 =3D

"Note: compliance with
   standards = and regulations set in different countries when using the
   5.9GHz frequency band is required."

I'm not familiar with the standards and = regulations being referenced here, but
is there any = specific reason why this needs to be said here? Presumably users
of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with = associated
regulations governing their use. It's not clear = to me that it makes sense to
note this here.

=3D Section 5.1.1 =3D

"Further
   correlation of this = information with other data captured by other
  =  means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY = constitute
   privacy risks."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here.

=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"In = 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well
   defined renumbering events."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not = the 802.11-OCB
spec).




-- <= br class=3D"">

Best Regards

Nabil = Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Sciences
School of Technology
Moulay Ismail University 
Meknes. = Morocco
=



--

Best = Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate = Professor
Department of Computer = Sciences
School of Technology
Moulay Ismail University 
Meknes. = Morocco



= --Apple-Mail=_712A6F23-BE13-4046-A1FE-20C65F8FB32E-- From nobody Wed Jul 17 13:43:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519D1120154 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EcRo3PsBnaz2 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd33.google.com (mail-io1-xd33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3204A12010F for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd33.google.com with SMTP id h6so47911901iom.7 for ; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:43:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=est-umi-ac-ma.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=73lBR03rB7JlDvZVWJ9tcm+CisFxqfN4SEekWQQjfN4=; b=ZxoGPzNrPDWEt+LJKCOxG5QtgfAAppT5fXezsjGlpRFH92SnyCf9zJ4zYaFneTYXKu ThjMmqTpqE/NbTGCUnloG215c0CXxqZCJJG1bzdBd1dMPjGbOK893O7nk8uNnvP0jrVo 6xqcn/xEwhWroSlPHLYrG+IyK4obeGYxJkR9sxNRASROE75vkEfHBEV3Z77H4T42Jso9 3U4uLArKakNULcWQg8DRgX2AjFbbZ95xYXafUFeHoneQr28lT1MTxlhuBfHOvPnxF6eo Dv87xc6N/eflq7+ZbXYU9cVZMB2ni5JlVLag8WqH2mwzmXB1gMWYu1I9hYuTx40ONkEP SUgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=73lBR03rB7JlDvZVWJ9tcm+CisFxqfN4SEekWQQjfN4=; b=endwm6p00iSnM2vlwSCsZjt+Z2baoN/Mnlz2MhlyJrLDhXcmQ9k2H7Dk66MpOw6vMl etMN6Oyb1Lj879X0iGLFKEerl8WCrIBHQP7CK9UmcnNj+wxpObss0c/HYGLUoMjqC/u1 Lov7c2OLslv8QaUBan2h31hLWgTTRQNpW+AZSc6O4b9CxjzzyO4zZKCYNGgQdvuKTjs/ I5ivxZYs7q08vSvVbTbF7NEN+w1HSkLeBSfCJ2mf9CA6MfL5dTh1AReVSHriItSOqePQ Yz9WBNePGmlRiaj6adNeD8GV4S+z5UavFniJ2iTORroIWOCJA8YPcQ8f9lqSe4gI0ijE uX4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW195yJguXdDayLLqSZFTjVVvJCNRUxqmTjMzsxm71QoBzaogD6 GFiSpe0WoHrk99l518LO3iswEwTqC+Lqga5JhXaOkA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw5Pwr7N2rb4QoTvpAiRvRJXptWu2EM8OnhtI8AC9i/tfqs8p6MUpfQpKpfhRBePGwuFum03Cz2WvlIdaJ+oDY= X-Received: by 2002:a02:bb05:: with SMTP id y5mr42358899jan.93.1563396188538; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:43:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156278324219.15531.9469512400534766331.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2CFE579C-7625-4875-AD4A-D5C26814287D@cooperw.in> In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:42:57 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alissa Cooper Cc: IESG , draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, its Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000764053058de68a1b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:43:17 -0000 --000000000000764053058de68a1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alissa, Thank you for your reply. What do you think of adding the following paragraph: However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since roaming is an important characteristic of vehicles, the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can indicate the presence of the same vehicle in different places and thus leads to location tracking. Hence, a vehicle should get hints about a change of environment (e.g. , engine running, GPS, etc..) and renew the IID in its LLAs. On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 7:20 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > Hi Nabil, > > On Jul 11, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Nabil Benamar > wrote: > > Hi Alissa, > > Are you referring to this text that may be added to the document? > > > "However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they > roam a lot, the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can leak the > presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, if > the same interface identifier is used with different prefixes as a > device/vehicle moves between different networks.=E2=80=9D > > > That was part of it. I think this was the full text: > > "However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since they > roam a lot, the use of a same Link Local Address over time can leak the > presence of the same vehicle in multiple places. Location tracking, if > the same interface identifier is used with different prefixes as a > device/vehicle moves between different networks. > > > Hence, a vehicle should get hints about a change of environment (e.g. , > engine running, GPS, whatever) and renew the IID in LLAs. > > > > I can make these proposed changes in a separate sub-section to emphasize > the concern and fix the privacy issue." > I think to the extent there are hints the vehicle would use to trigger a > refresh of the IID, that idea is worth mentioning. > > Thanks, > Alissa > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:52 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > >> Hi Nabil, >> >> On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar >> wrote: >> >> Hi Alissa, >> >> Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker < >> noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>> >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>> >>> >>> Please refer to >>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>> >>> >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> I support Roman's DISCUSS. >>> >>> Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of what this document >>> specifies. >>> I think it would help to have a clear statement about the circumstances >>> under >>> which each kind of address generation scheme is recommended. Were RFC >>> 4941 >>> addresses not considered because addresses generated according to RFC >>> 8064 have >>> functionally equivalent properties given how often moving vehicle chang= e >>> subnets? For link-local addresses, is it possible to give >>> recommendations for >>> when IIDs should be re-generated? >>> >>> Here is the new text in -49 >> >> An example of change policy is to change the MAC >> address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up. This may >> help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level. Futhermore, for >> pricavy concerns ([RFC8065 ]) re= commends using an address generation >> scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer >> >> address. >> >> >> I saw this when I read the document but it doesn=E2=80=99t address my qu= estions >> above. Also in your email to Roni you mentioned other environmental fact= ors >> that might trigger a change in link-local address, so I was hoping to se= e >> that in the document text. >> >> Thanks, >> Alissa >> >> >> >>> =3D Section 5.2 =3D >>> >>> "An Interface ID SHOULD be of length specified in other documents." >>> >>> Isn't the length specified for each of the two IID generation mechanism= s >>> discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4? >>> >> >> We decided to remove this sentence from the text since ther is no other >> document. >> >>> >>> =3D Section 5.3 =3D >>> >>> "The demand for privacy protection of vehicles' and drivers' >>> identities, which could be granted by using a pseudonym or alias >>> identity at the same time, may hamper the required confidentiality o= f >>> messages and trust between participants" >>> >>> Pseudonymity and confidentiality are not mutually exclusive, so I think >>> this is >>> incorrect. >>> >> >> I agree. >> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> COMMENT: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Please expand OCB and STA on first use. >>> >>> =3D Section 2 =3D >>> >>> "Note: compliance with >>> standards and regulations set in different countries when using the >>> 5.9GHz frequency band is required." >>> >>> I'm not familiar with the standards and regulations being referenced >>> here, but >>> is there any specific reason why this needs to be said here? Presumably >>> users >>> of regulated spectrum bands the world over must comply with associated >>> regulations governing their use. It's not clear to me that it makes >>> sense to >>> note this here. >>> >>> =3D Section 5.1.1 =3D >>> >>> "Further >>> correlation of this information with other data captured by other >>> means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitut= e >>> privacy risks." >>> >>> The normative MAY is not appropriate here. >>> >>> =3D Section 5.2 =3D >>> >>> "In 802.11-OCB networks, the MAC addresses MAY change during well >>> defined renumbering events." >>> >>> The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since this is not the >>> 802.11-OCB >>> spec). >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Best Regards >> >> Nabil Benamar >> Associate Professor >> Department of Computer Sciences >> School of Technology >> Moulay Ismail University >> Meknes. Morocco >> >> >> > > -- > > Best Regards > > Nabil Benamar > Associate Professor > Department of Computer Sciences > School of Technology > Moulay Ismail University > Meknes. Morocco > > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000764053058de68a1b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Al= issa,

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:#0b5394">Thank you for your repl= y.

What do you think of addin= g the following paragraph:

However, there are some = specificities related to vehicles. Since roaming is an important characteri= stic of vehicles, the use of the same Link-Local Address over time can indi= cate the presence of the same vehicle in different places and thus leads to= location tracking.=C2= =A0Hence, a vehicle should get hints about a change of environment (= e.g. , engine running, GPS, etc..) and renew the IID in its LLAs.

=C2=A0






<= /div>

<= br>
On Wed,= Jul 17, 2019 at 7:20 PM Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
Hi Nabil,

On Jul 11, 2019, at 10:25 AM, Nab= il Benamar <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Are you referring to this text tha= t may be added to the document?


"However, there are so= me specificities related to vehicles. Since they roam a lot, the use of the= same Link-Local Address over time can leak the presence of the same vehicl= e in multiple places.=C2=A0Locat= ion tracking, if the same interface identifier is used with=C2=A0different prefixes as a device/vehicle mov= es between different networks.=E2=80=9D

That was part of it. I think this was the full text:<= /div>

"However, there are some specificities related to vehicles. Since t= hey roam a lot, the use of a same Link Local Address over time can leak the= presence of the same vehicle in multiple places.=C2=A0Location tracking, if the same interface i= dentifier is used with=C2=A0different prefixes as a device/vehicle moves between different= networks.

<= br>

Hence, a vehicl= e should get hints about a change of environment (e.g. , engine running, GP= S, whatever) and renew the IID in LLAs.

=C2=A0

I can make these proposed changes in a= separate sub-section to emphasize the concern and fix the privacy issue.&q= uot;

I think to the extent there are hints the vehicle would use to= trigger a refresh of the IID, that idea is worth mentioning.
Thanks,
Alissa


On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 2:52 PM Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Hi Nabil,
On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Nabil Benamar = <n.benamar@= est.umi.ac.ma> wrote:

Hi Alissa,

Thanks again for your review. Please see my answers below

<= /div>
O= n Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:27 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:=
Alissa Cooper h= as entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over= -80211ocb-49: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line = intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines.= (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Ple= ase refer to=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more = information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The docume= nt, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/



-----------------------------= -----------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
------------------= ----------------------------------------------------

I support Roman= 's DISCUSS.

Overall I am unclear on the privacy properties of wh= at this document specifies.
I think it would help to have a clear statem= ent about the circumstances under
which each kind of address generation = scheme is recommended. Were RFC 4941
addresses not considered because ad= dresses generated according to RFC 8064 have
functionally equivalent pro= perties given how often moving vehicle change
subnets? For link-local ad= dresses, is it possible to give recommendations for
when IIDs should be = re-generated?

Here is the new text in -49

An example of change policy is to change the MAC
   address of the OCB interface each time the system boots up.  This may
   help mitigate privacy risks to a certain level.  Futhermore, for
   pricavy concerns ([RFC8065]) recommends using an address generation
   scheme rather than addresses generated from a fixed link-layer=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0address.


I saw this when I read = the document but it doesn=E2=80=99t address my questions above. Also in you= r email to Roni you mentioned other environmental factors that might trigge= r a change in link-local address, so I was hoping to see that in the docume= nt text.

Thanks,
Alissa

=C2=A0
=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"An Interface ID SHOULD be of length speci= fied in other documents."

Isn't the length specified for ea= ch of the two IID generation mechanisms
discussed in Section 4.3 and 4.4= ?

We decided to remove this sentence from the text since th= er is no other document.

=3D Section 5.3 =3D

"The demand for privacy protection= of vehicles' and drivers'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identities, which could = be granted by using a pseudonym or alias
=C2=A0 =C2=A0identity at the sa= me time, may hamper the required confidentiality of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0message= s and trust between participants"

Pseudonymity and confidential= ity are not mutually exclusive, so I think this is
incorrect.

I agree.

<= br>----------------------------------------------------------------------COMMENT:
-------------------------------------------------------------= ---------

Please expand OCB and STA on first use.

=3D Section= 2 =3D

"Note: compliance with
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standards and reg= ulations set in different countries when using the
=C2=A0 =C2=A05.9GHz f= requency band is required."

I'm not familiar with the stand= ards and regulations being referenced here, but
is there any specific re= ason why this needs to be said here? Presumably users
of regulated spect= rum bands the world over must comply with associated
regulations governi= ng their use. It's not clear to me that it makes sense to
note this = here.

=3D Section 5.1.1 =3D

"Further
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cor= relation of this information with other data captured by other
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0means, or other visual information (car color, others) MAY constitute=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0privacy risks."

The normative MAY is not appro= priate here.

=3D Section 5.2 =3D

"In 802.11-OCB networks= , the MAC addresses MAY change during well
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined renumber= ing events."

The normative MAY is not appropriate here (since t= his is not the 802.11-OCB
spec).




--=C2=A0

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Sciences
School of Technol= ogy
Mou= lay Ismail=C2=A0University= =C2=A0
= Meknes. Morocco



--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Best Regards<= div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">
Nabil Benamar
Associate Profe= ssor
De= partment of Computer Sciences
<= font color=3D"#0b5394">School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco





--
=

Best Regards=

<= /div>
Nabil Benamar<= /font>
Associa= te Professor
Department of Computer Sciences
School of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco
=


<= /div>
--000000000000764053058de68a1b-- From nobody Wed Jul 17 22:00:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FE712004A; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NbjpEDtCy9vW; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9295F120025; Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 24569E89AA772F6E6160; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:00:21 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:00:20 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.227]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:00:13 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Alissa Cooper , Suresh Krishnan CC: "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" , "its@ietf.org" , Gen art , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" , Nabil Benamar Thread-Topic: [Gen-art] [ipwave] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 Thread-Index: AQHVN19zDe5XO5UVNEeA69o/eMMbTabDy6yAgAAAuwCADA8bUA== Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 05:00:13 +0000 Message-ID: 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<6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD23D17DC3@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:38:47 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Roni Even (A)" Cc: Alissa Cooper , Suresh Krishnan , "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" , "its@ietf.org" , Gen art , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org" , Nabil Benamar Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ea4e4e058defb319" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] [Gen-art] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:39:03 -0000 --000000000000ea4e4e058defb319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Roni, Thank you for your comment. I will reflect it in the new version. On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 6:00 AM Roni Even (A) wrote: > Hi, > > I still do not think that the following sentence in section 5.2 text "The > policy dictating when the MAC address is changed on the 802.11-OCB > interface is to-be-determined." make sense. I think that a sentence that > will say > > =E2=80=9Cimplementations should use a policy dictating when the MAC addre= ss is > changed on the 802.11-OCB interface=E2=80=9D > > > > Roni > > > > *From:* Gen-art [mailto:gen-art-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Alissa > Cooper > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:47 PM > *To:* Suresh Krishnan > *Cc:* ietf@ietf.org Discussion; its@ietf.org; Gen art; > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@ietf.org; Nabil Benamar > *Subject:* Re: [Gen-art] [ipwave] Genart telechat review of > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 > > > > I reviewed the -49 version so my questions are on that version. > > Alissa > > > > On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > > > > Hi Nabil, > > Roni's telechat review is for the version on which I issued the ballot > (in this case it is -47). If you think the issue is resolved in a later > version (I do not believe so in this case), you can respond to point out > the actual text change that you made to address Roni=E2=80=99s comment. > > > > Thanks > > Suresh > > > > On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Nabil Benamar wrote: > > > > Hi Alissa, > > > > Thank you for your review. However, I have updated the draft and now it's > in -49 reflecting previous comments. > > > > > > Best regards > > Nabil Benamar > > ------------------- > > =D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8=B1=D9=88 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM Alissa Cooper wrote: > > Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks for your responses. I > entered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity about the relationshi= p > between MAC address changes and IID changes, among other things. > > Alissa > > > On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker > wrote: > > > > Reviewer: Roni Even > > Review result: Ready with Issues > > > > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft. > > > > For more information, please see the FAQ at > > > > . > > > > Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47 > > Reviewer: Roni Even > > Review Date: 2019-07-03 > > IETF LC End Date: None > > IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11 > > > > Summary: > > The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an > issue > > > > Major issues: > > > > Minor issues: > > > > this is about my previous comment. > > The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking an IP-OBU whose egress > interface > > is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to eavesdropping and subsequent > correlation of > > data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; > there is a > > risk of being tracked. In outdoors public environments, where vehicles > > typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indoo= rs > > settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protection tools > such as > > dynamically changing MAC addresses" > > so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text > saying > > that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normative .. > > > > A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change policy is > to > > change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots > up" > > > > I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the > MAC > > address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." > > > > So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to > address > > privacy concern are needed but without any normative text. Dynamic > changing > > of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned. Example for > when to > > change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC > address > > is to be determined. > > > > To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks are > more > > important for outdoor public environment and it is left for > implementations to > > decide if and how to address it. > > > > Nits/editorial comments: > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gen-art mailing list > > Gen-art@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > > > --=20 Best Regards Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail University Meknes. Morocco --000000000000ea4e4e058defb319 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ro= ni,

Thank you for your commen= t. I will reflect it in the new version.

On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 6:00 = AM Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huaw= ei.com> wrote:

Hi,

I still do not think that the following sent= ence in section 5.2 text "The policy dictating when the MAC address = is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined." make sens= e. I think that a sentence that will say

=E2=80=9Cimplementations should use a policy dictati= ng when the MAC address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface=E2=80=9D<= /u>

=C2=A0

Roni

=C2=A0

From: Gen-art [mailto:gen-art-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:47 PM
To: Suresh Krishnan
Cc: ietf@ietf.org= Discussion; its@ietf= .org; Gen art; draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb.all@iet= f.org; Nabil Benamar
Subject: Re: [Gen-art] [ipwave] Genart telechat review of draft-ietf= -ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47

=C2=A0

I reviewed the -49 version so my questions are on th= at version.

Alissa



On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Suresh Krishnan <Suresh@kaloom.com&g= t; wrote:

=C2=A0

Hi Nabil,

=C2=A0 Roni's telechat review is for the version= on which I issued the ballot (in this case it is -47). If you think the is= sue is resolved in a later version (I do not believe so in this case), you = can respond to point out the actual text change that you made to address Roni=E2=80=99s comment.

=C2=A0

Thanks

Suresh



On Jul 10, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Nabil Benamar <benamar73@gmail.com= > wrote:

=C2=A0

Hi Alissa,

=C2=A0

Thank you for your review. However, I have updated the draf= t and now it's in -49 reflecting previous comments.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best regards

Nabil Benamar

-------= ------------

=D9=86=D8=A8=D9=8A=D9=84 =D8=A8=D9=86=D8=B9=D9=85=D8= =B1=D9=88

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 7:29 PM Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in&= gt; wrote:

Roni, thanks for your review. Alex, Nabil, thanks fo= r your responses. I entered a DISCUSS ballot to try to get more clarity abo= ut the relationship between MAC address changes and IID changes, among othe= r things.

Alissa

> On Jul 4, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Roni Even via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review result: Ready with Issues
>
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please wait for direction from your > document shepherd or AD before posting a new version of the draft.
>
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>
> Document: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-47
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review Date: 2019-07-03
> IETF LC End Date: None
> IESG Telechat date: 2019-07-11
>
> Summary:
> The document is ready to be published as a standard track RFC with an = issue
>
> Major issues:
>
> Minor issues:
>
> this is about my previous comment.
> The text in section 5.1 "A vehicle embarking=C2=A0 an IP-OBU whos= e egress interface
> is 802.11-OCB may expose itself to=C2=A0 eavesdropping and subsequent = correlation of
> data; this may reveal data considered private by the vehicle owner; th= ere is a
> risk of being tracked.=C2=A0 In outdoors public environments, where ve= hicles
> typically circulate, the privacy risks are more important than in indo= ors
> settings." and "there is a strong necessity to use protectio= n tools such=C2=A0 as
> dynamically changing MAC addresses"
> so even though there are privacy concerns there is no normative text s= aying
> that some method is needed. "strong necessity" is not normat= ive ..
>
> A new sentence was added to section 5.1 "An example of change pol= icy is to
> change the MAC address of the OCB interface each time the system boots= up"
>
> I got more confused by section 5.2 text "The policy dictating whe= n the MAC
> address is changed on the 802.11-OCB interface is to-be-determined.&qu= ot;
>
> So what I got from section 5.1 and 5.2 is that protection tools to add= ress
> privacy concern are needed but without any normative text.=C2=A0 Dynam= ic changing
> of MAC address is an option, no other option is mentioned.=C2=A0 Examp= le for when to
> change MAC address is on system boot and the policy when to change MAC= address
> is to be determined.
>
> To summarize what the document currently says is that privacy risks ar= e more
> important for outdoor public environment and it is left for implementa= tions to
> decide if and how to address it.
>
> Nits/editorial comments:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gen-art mailing list
> Gen-art@ietf.org=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco


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The attached draft pdf is unofficial one generated from the xml file of version -11, which will be submitted on July 21, 2019. If you have further questions and comments, please let me know. Thanks. Best Regards, Paul On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:12 AM Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Charlie, > Here is the revision based on your major comments: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10 > > I attach the revision letter explaining how I answered your comments. > If you have comments and questions on the revision, please let me know. > > Due to the time limitation, I could not address your editorial comments o= n > -10 version. > For your editorial comments, I will address them and submit -11 version > before the IETF-105 IPWAVE session. > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM Charlie Perkins < > charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Hello Paul, >> >> I have reviewed the document. I think it still needs some improvements >> as described below. >> >> - It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better >> than simply a routing protocol between moving networks. >> >> - The discussions about DNS need better motivation. >> >> - I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements >> and latency bounds. The inclusion of numbers like 1 second, .5 second, = and >> 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations. Given som= e >> knowledge of DSRC range and typical speeds for motor vehicles, you shoul= d >> be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic. >> >> - The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with >> cross references to other parts of the document. >> >> - The "Changes" section should have detailed what was changed, instead o= f >> just saying that resolutions were included for our comments. >> >> - I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global >> prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs. I think this would= be >> a bad idea. Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET. >> >> - In section 5.1, you might cite >> draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses vario= us >> kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless media= . >> >> - In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge >> into one network. An example is needed for this. >> >> - In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should >> be prevented by cooperation between good nodes. But no suggestion is ma= de >> about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the >> likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or= be >> compromised. Similarly, it is not suggested how to identify authorized >> vehicles. >> >> Regards, >> Charlie P. >> >> >> On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote: >> >> Charlie, >> Thanks for your time. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> 2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:10= , Charlie Perkins =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >> >>> Hello Paul, >>> >>> >>> It's on my list to read tomorrow. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Charlie P. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM >>> *To:* Charlie Perkins >>> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; >>> Sri Gundavelli >>> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>> >>> Hi Charlie, >>> Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft? >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>> >>> >>> >>> Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version o= r >>> not. >>> >>> I believe that I addresses all your previous comments >>> even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the >>> problems for IPWAVE. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >>> cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote: >>> >>> I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie reviews it to do my review. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Carlos >>> >>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < >>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Charlie, >>> Thanks a lot. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 10:= 57, Charlie Perkins < >>> charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>> >>> Hello Paul and all, >>> >>> >>> I will attempt to review the draft later this week. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Charlie P. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >>> *Sent:* Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM >>> *To:* CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO >>> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri >>> Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong >>> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>> >>> Hi Carlos, >>> It seems Charlie is busy. >>> I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft. >>> >>> Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-10= 5 >>> meeting? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:= 49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < >>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>> >>> Sri, >>> Okay. >>> I will not change the text about ND. >>> >>> Let's wait for Charlie's response. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:= 44, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >>> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can >>> revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. >>> Unfortunately, that=E2=80=99s the most controversial topic and we don= =E2=80=99t need to >>> muddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimi= ze >>> ND and lets leave it at that level. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks >>> Sri >>> >>> >>> >>> From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" >>> Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM >>> To: Sri Gundavelli , "charles.perkins@earthlink.net= " >>> >>> Cc: Russ Housley , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >>> cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" < >>> Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>> >>> Hi Sri, >>> I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the >>> revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1. >>> >>> Charlie, >>> Do you have any comments on the current version? >>> >>> To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:= 09, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >>> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 version and the delta from =E2=80=9308. >>> >>> The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of >>> unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. Howev= er, >>> in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought= the >>> goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, >>> scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, 5.1.1.= 1? >>> >>> >>> Sri >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: its on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" = < >>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >>> Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM >>> To: Charlie Perkins , Sri Gundavelli < >>> sgundave@cisco.com> >>> Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" < >>> skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" < >>> pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" , Russ Housley < >>> housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" , CARLOS JESUS >>> BERNARDOS CANO , "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>> >>> Hi Charlie and Sri, >>> Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you >>> are happy with the revision? >>> >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>> >>> >>> Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft. >>> >>> If you have some places to improve, please let me know. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> 2019=EB=85=84 5=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:2= 9, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >>> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>> >>> Hi IPWAVE WG, >>> I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>> >>> >>> >>> According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on >>> the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular >>> networking, >>> such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy= . >>> >>> For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem >>> statement about >>> the ND at 802.11-OCB. >>> Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution i= n >>> the draft. >>> >>> Carlos, >>> Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward >>> toward WGLC? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM wrote: >>> >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>> directories. >>> This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular >>> Environments WG of the IETF. >>> >>> Title : IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments >>> (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases >>> Author : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor) >>> Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>> Pages : 28 >>> Date : 2019-05-24 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP- >>> based vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems >>> (ITS). The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle- >>> to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to- >>> everything (V2X) communications. First, this document explains use >>> cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking. Next, it makes a problem >>> statement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such a= s >>> IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy= . >>> For each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-base= d >>> vehicular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions >>> satisfying those requirements. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking= / >>> >>> >>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>> >>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-netwo= rking-09 >>> >>> >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-network= ing-09 >>> >>> >>> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>> submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org >>> >>> . >>> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D >>> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Department of Software >>> Sungkyunkwan University >>> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >>> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >>> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D >>> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >>> Associate Professor >>> Department of Software >>> Sungkyunkwan University >>> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >>> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >>> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >>> >>> >> > > -- > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D > Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Software > Sungkyunkwan University > Office: +82-31-299-4957 > Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu > Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php > > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Software Sungkyunkwan University Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php --000000000000872e05058df3673a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Charlie,
Here is the vision -11, reflecting all of = your editorial comments and questions along with
the revision let= ter.
The attached draft pdf is unofficial one generated from the = xml file of version -11,
which will be submitted on July 21, 2019= .

If you have further questions and comments, plea= se let me know.

Thanks.

B= est Regards,
Paul


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:12= AM Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <ja= ehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Charlie,
Here is the revision b= ased on your major comments:
<= div>=C2=A0
I attach the revision letter explaining how I answ= ered your comments.
If you have comments and questions on the rev= ision, please let me know.

Due to the time limitat= ion, I could not address your editorial comments on -10 version.
= For your editorial comments, I will address them and submit -11 version=C2= =A0
before the IETF-105 IPWAVE session.

= Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlin= k.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hello Paul,

I have reviewed the document.=C2=A0 I think it still needs some improvements as described below.

- It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better than simply a routing protocol between moving networks.

- The discussions about DNS need better motivation.

- I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements and latency bounds.=C2=A0 The inclusion of numbers like = 1 second, .5 second, and 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations.=C2=A0 Given some knowledge of DSRC range and typic= al speeds for motor vehicles, you should be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic.

- The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with cross references to other parts of the document.

- The "Changes" section should have detailed what was chan= ged, instead of just saying that resolutions were included for our comments.

- I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs.=C2=A0 I think this would be a bad idea.=C2=A0 Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET.

- In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless media.

- In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge into one network.=C2=A0 An example is needed for this.

- In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should be prevented by cooperation between good nodes.=C2=A0 But no suggestion is made about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or be compromised.=C2=A0 Similarly, = it is not suggested how to identify authorized vehicles.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote:
=20
Charlie,
Thanks for your time.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC= =9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:10, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D= =B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul,


It's on my = list to read tomorrow.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaeh= oon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM
To: Charlie Perkins
Cc: Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; Sri Gundavelli
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt
=C2=A0
Hi Charlie,
Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft?
=C2=A0
Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version or not.

I believe that I addresses all your previous comments=C2=A0
even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the problems for IPWAVE.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie revie= ws it to do my review.

Thanks!

Carlos

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,
Thanks a lot.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB= =85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC= =A0=84 10:57, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com<= /a>>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul and all,


I will attempt to review the draft later this week.


Regards,
Charlie P.

F= rom: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jae= hoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM
To: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Cc: Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09= .txt
=C2=A0
Hi Carlos,
It seems Charlie is busy.
I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft.

Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-105 meeting?

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

20= 19=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.p= aul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Sri,
Okay.
I will not change the text about ND.

Let's wait for Charlie's response.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) = =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:44, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgu= ndave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Hi Paul,

Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. Unfortunately, that=E2=80= =99s the most controversial topic and we don=E2=80=99t need to mu= ddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimize ND and lets leave it at that level.



Thanks
Sri



From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM
To: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>, "charles.perkins@earthlink.net" <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Cc: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking-09.txt

Hi Sri,
I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1.

Charl= ie,
Do you have any comments on the current version?

To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments.

Thank= s.

Best Regards,
Paul<= /div>

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D= =BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:09, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgundave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1= :
Hi Paul,

I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 versi= on and the delta from =E2=80=9308.=

The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. However, in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought the goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, =C2=A05.1.1.1?=C2= =A0


Sri





=C2=A0


From: its <its-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <<= a href=3D"mailto:jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank">jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM
To: Charlie Perkins <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" <skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" <its@ietf.org>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" <Tom.Oh@rit.edu>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt

Hi Charlie and Sri,
Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you are happy with the revision?


Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft.

If you have some places to improve, please let me know.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 5= =EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:29, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC= =84=B1:
= Hi IPWAVE WG,
I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft:
=C2=A0
According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on=C2=A0<= /div>
the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular networking,
such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy.

For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem statement about
the ND at 802.11-OCB.=C2=A0=
Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution in the draft.

Carlos,
Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward toward WGLC?

Thanks.

Paul

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 28
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2019-05-24

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0base= d vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ITS= ).=C2=A0 The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to-v= ehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infras= tructure (V2I), and vehicle-to-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ever= ything (V2X) communications.= =C2=A0 First, this document explains use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0case= s using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking.=C2=A0 Next, it makes a problem
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stat= ement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. =C2=A0 =C2=A0For = each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based
=C2=A0 =C2=A0vehi= cular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sati= sfying those requirements.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networ= king-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicu= lar-networking-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicula= r-networking-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
--
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors.


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:pauljeong@skku.edu" style=3D"font-size:12.8px" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr= . Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Softw= are
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com= ,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://i= otlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.= D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan Univers= ity
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeon= g@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaeho= on-jeong.php
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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mcwSv6cQY70R for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7006C12017C for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6JBdmv5028899 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:39:48 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B3DB42056FE for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:39:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8492056D0 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:39:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6JBdlp9031285 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:39:47 +0200 To: "its@ietf.org" References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:39:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Small scale V2V demo involving IP on WiFi X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:39:53 -0000 Miniature V2V car demo involving IP and WiFi (not IPv6 nor OCB), with open source, from Cambridge. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.06133.pdf https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6556115991372369920 " [...] Vehicle-to-vehicle interactions improve traffic and safety The University of Cambridge has created a fleet of autonomous mini-cars able to interact with each other for a common goal: optimized traffic flow and passenger safety One of the example in the video shows that, in "cooperative mode", vehicles approaching the obstacle (car 16) will reduce their speed. This avoids other vehicles to be blocked by the obstacle and create queues. As an outcome the system proved to improve throuput by 35% Read more in the paper: https://lnkd.in/fpQZunt" From nobody Fri Jul 19 07:38:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421F0120370 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mKfHkZEBuc6o for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC41F120375 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6JEci1F016095 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:38:44 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D33F120589E for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:38:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DF12056C5 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:38:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6JEciGP010382 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:38:44 +0200 To: "its@ietf.org" From: Alexandre PETRESCU Organization: CEA Message-ID: <0fd0d292-bcb4-59c7-ec29-4c888ed810c6@cea.fr> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:38:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms040902030405060904050306" Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Best Effort vs Background and non IP vs IP X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:38:58 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040902030405060904050306 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------91E3785F89C3530A820005A1" Content-Language: fr This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------91E3785F89C3530A820005A1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8FAB73C4D7AC55197FC80F8A" --------------8FAB73C4D7AC55197FC80F8A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think IP is 'Best Effort', some RFC could be cited. The 802.11 QoS Data header field 'QoS Control' says that a non-IP=20 message (GeoNetworking, BTP-B, ITS) has priority 'Best Effort'. The I-D IPv6-over-OCB says that field has value 'Background' for an IPv6 = message, and not 'Best Effort'. I suppose this discrepancy (if you allow me to say so) is so because at=20 IEEE the term 'best effort' has another meaning than at IETF. Yours, -- Alexandre Petrescu alexandre.petrescu@cea.fr, t=C3=A9l 0169089223 --------------8FAB73C4D7AC55197FC80F8A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think IP is 'Best Effort', some RFC could be cited.

The 802.11 QoS Data header field 'QoS Control' says that a non-IP message (GeoNetworking, BTP-B, ITS) has priority 'Best Effort'.<= /font>

The I-D IPv6-over-OCB= says that field has value 'Background' for an IPv6 message, and not 'Best Effort'.

I suppose this discrepancy (if you allow me to say so) is so because at IEEE the term 'best effort' has another meaning than at IETF.=

Yours, 

--
Alexandre Petrescu
alexandre.petrescu@cea.fr, t=C3=A9l 0169089223
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Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0EB3120451 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6JEnNLQ018819 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:49:23 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F7152058DD for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:49:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358A22058D4 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:49:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6JEnMwc015687 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:49:22 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <0D52B176-89B5-4322-93B9-2F6ABA6EFFFA@vigilsec.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <81002876-bbbe-9276-54a0-6bc464ff3708@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:49:23 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:49:35 -0000 Le 17/07/2019 à 16:35, Russ Housley a écrit : > > Mirja: > > Rick Roy suggested that the [IEEE-1609.2] reference was probably not the best one. I suggest: > > The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by > a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC > header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination > (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set to > 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802.11 data service SHOULD use a > 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving > higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive > traffic, including the ones listed in [ETSI-sec-archi]. Does this mean that my IP-RSU putting IPv6 on 802.11 Data headers (not QoS Data headers, no 'Background' user priority) is non conformant to this spec? Alex > > Russ > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Sat Jul 20 04:56:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41688120154; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 04:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OsU8yKeCItIT; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 04:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.eurecom.fr (smtp.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922C71200B1; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 04:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.64,286,1559512800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="10617054" Received: from monza.eurecom.fr ([192.168.106.15]) by drago1i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 20 Jul 2019 13:56:06 +0200 Received: from xerus29 (unknown [192.168.200.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by monza.eurecom.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CCF23261; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 13:56:05 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= To: "'Alexandre Petrescu'" , "'Russ Housley'" Cc: "'Nabil Benamar'" , "'Mirja Kuehlewind'" , "'IESG'" , "'its'" References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 13:56:04 +0200 Organization: EURECOM Message-ID: <017a01d53ef2$1c5c5ac0$55151040$@eurecom.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_017B_01D53F02.DFEEC7B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQE87Ki5V3dO7P1xsvZlLuQG9y2aKwDARcZbAe3DuYYCDAY+cgGfXjOTAbhr8foBa54+qAL0xFZSAYvPHywCBRRoAwKlH35XAd2qEXAB/5uZJgJ5T52NpzwPDPA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:56:17 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_017B_01D53F02.DFEEC7B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Alex, All, =20 I guess that on this aspect, we will need to agree that we disagree :-) =20 As accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum (so far) is still restricted by using = the ETSI stack, and as the ETSI stack uses QoS mapping to the QoSheaders = (the DCC and media-dependant Geonet specifications), then QoSheader are = required to access the ITS-G5 spectrum in EU...I shall also mention = (again..) that at that stage, accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum with 'pure' = IP over OCB is not allowed for commercial usage, as for this to happen, = two major aspects must be enforced: 1) a security framework is required=20 2) a mechanism to enforce IP-over-OCB to respect the duty cycle=20 =20 Both of these are not available so far for IP-over-OCB=E2=80=A6but I am = not sure (and I guess other might have different perspective on this, in = order to make this draft move on), is that such restrictions are = =E2=80=98spectrum=E2=80=99 specific=E2=80=A6, which is outside the scope = of the IETF (as I understand it)=E2=80=A6so, I would not see such lack = of specification blocking the current draft, considering the fact that = it includes a mention that regional/national restrictions could apply, = which would need an additional specifications (at a later = stage=E2=80=A6). =20 So, to my perspective, it is not what is 'available' but what is = 'required'=E2=80=A6and this is pretty clear (and came straight from the = ETSI ITS chairs...).. =20 Yet, I also think that from a global perspective, IP-over-OCB should not = enforce using QoSHeaders, considering=20 1) IP would provide the required priorization of channel access 2) the draft would indicate that this possibility is subject to = national/regional regulations that could say it differently. And one last thing: if you access ITS-G5 with nonQoSheader and other = stations have QoS headers, then you will systematically loose !! That is = just due to the fact that nonQoSheaders can access the channel only = after an IDLE DIFS time...while nonQoSheader uses IDLE AIFS times, which = for 3 queues out of 4 are shorter than the DIFS...(not mentioning the = CW, which is also significantly shorter) So, I would say that using = nonQoSHeader will lead to performance drop when competing with other = ITS-G5/DSRC traffic on a same channel...(as most ITS-G5/DSRC traffic is = broadcast, their CW will never increase (while yours might) and always = be smaller than your NonQoSHeader profile). =20 My two cents, BR, =20 J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me =20 -----Original Message----- From: its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Petrescu Sent: Tuesday 16 July 2019 21:53 To: Russ Housley Cc: Nabil Benamar; Mirja Kuehlewind; IESG; its Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) =20 Russ, =20 Sorry if the open-vs-closed text adds no clarity, but I do not know how to express it better. =20 I think the special-purpose frequency allocation for 802.11-OCB does not impose QoS Data headers, even though it does tell that range is for safety applications for ITS. I may be wrong though. =20 Finally, as far as I know, there are no IPv6-over-OCB implementations with QoS Data headers, even if there are many implementations of CAM and BSM over 802.11-OCB with such headers. But I will be happy to stand corrected if this were the case: is there an implementation of IPv6-over-OCB with QoS Data headers? =20 Alex =20 Le 16/07/2019 =C3=A0 18:56, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : > Alex: >=20 > I am very uncomfortable with your proposed text. IEEE 802.11-OCB=20 > uses special-purpose frequency allocation. I think the text about=20 > open vs. closed systems is going to add confusion, not clarity. >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Alexandre Petrescu=20 >> wrote: >>=20 >> Russ, >>=20 >> Le 15/07/2019 =C3=A0 16:38, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>> Alex: Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the=20 >>> values used for the QoS bits. What would you like to see instead >>> of the second MUST? Russ >>=20 >> I would like to see something like this: >>=20 >> OLD: >>> IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data=20 >>> frames whose format is specified in IEEE 802.11 spec=20 >>> [IEEE-802.11-2016]. The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are >>> immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and >>> an 802.11 header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the >>> EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the=20 >>> value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The=20 >>> mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of >>> 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user=20 >>> priority. >>=20 >> NEW: >>> The IPv6 packets transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately=20 >>> preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11=20 >>> header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType >>> Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the >>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). In open systems, the=20 >>> 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted over 802.11-OCB >>> media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. In such systems, receivers >>> of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST understand and fully parse IP >>> packets preceded by 802.11 Data headers. Receivers SHOULD NOT >>> drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data headers. In closed >>> systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted >>> over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an 802.11 QoS Data header. In >>> such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST >>> understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data >>> headers. In such systems, it is required that the mapping to the >>> 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which >>> specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. The >>> frame format of 802.11 Data headers and QoS Data headers is=20 >>> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec [IEEE-802.11-2016]. >>=20 >> Alex >>=20 >>>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu=20 >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>>>> Alex: I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only=20 >>>>> added a phrase of rationale. >>>>=20 >>>> I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase=20 >>>> of rationale was added. >>>>=20 >>>> The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is=20 >>>> logical. >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. >>>>=20 >>>> (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the=20 >>>> MUST. I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and >>>> criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS=20 >>>> priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale=20 >>>> within a limited bandwidth.) >>>>=20 >>>> (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks >>>> at 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km=20 >>>> measured. The number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of=20 >>>> that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not=20 >>>> thousands. Within these dimensions, criticality and=20 >>>> time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An increase=20 >>>> in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be=20 >>>> even more sufficient) >>>>=20 >>>> (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety=20 >>>> can be realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS=20 >>>> priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to=20 >>>> perform and would overcome QoS priorities.) >>>>=20 >>>> Alex >>>>=20 >>>>> Russ >>>>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu=20 >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> hats and freedoms are valuable. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft=20 >>>>>> IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Alex >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>>>>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit >>>>>>> of rationale be provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on >>>>>>> 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link=20 >>>>>>> Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC=20 >>>>>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol=20 >>>>>>> Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the=20 >>>>>>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to >>>>>>> the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1 >>>>>>> (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving=20 >>>>>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and=20 >>>>>>> time-sensitive traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ >>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney=20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi All: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, >>>>>>>> it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will >>>>>>>> typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP >>>>>>>> safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC=20 >>>>>>>> regulations require that such safety communications=20 >>>>>>>> have access priority over other communications [47 CFR >>>>>>>> =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would be cautious about removing the >>>>>>>> current language unless you are convinced that doing=20 >>>>>>>> so will not adversely affect non-IP safety=20 >>>>>>>> communications. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Best Regards, John >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind=20 >>>>>>>> >=20 >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and=20 >>>>>>>>> different views >>>>>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove=20 >>>>>>>> this text to avoid confusion. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>>>>> >=20 >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi Nabil, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy=20 >>>>>>>>> mainly advised >>>>>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question >>>>>>>> is rather _if_ that is needed and if it is really=20 >>>>>>>> appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further explain >>>>>>>> why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> You raised a very important point that was=20 >>>>>>>>>> discussed >>>>>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 >>>>>>>> members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a >>>>>>>> review to help us clarify this point. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Here is what we got from them: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> . Suggest to simply state that the data is=20 >>>>>>>>>> transmitted with >>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or = 2), and >>>>>>>> leave the internal details of how this is accomplished >>>>>>>> to the 802.11 specification. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple=20 >>>>>>>>>> integer (not >>>>>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority >>>>>>>> to TID header value is another 802.11 detail, best=20 >>>>>>>> left to the 802.11 specification. For example: in the >>>>>>>> 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be=20 >>>>>>>> 4 bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry >>>>>>>> the User Priority information is an internal=20 >>>>>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to=20 >>>>>>>> change.. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE >>>>>>>>>> Std >>>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally=20 >>>>>>>> abstracts the exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal=20 >>>>>>>> operation, while describing specifically the behavior=20 >>>>>>>> required by the user. For example, the following=20 >>>>>>>> text: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype=20 >>>>>>>>>> sub-field in >>>>>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS=20 >>>>>>>> Data'); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID)=20 >>>>>>>> sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header >>>>>>>> MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority=20 >>>>>>>> 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> could be replaced by: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>>>>>>>> =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 >>>>>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a=20 >>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via >>>>>>>>>> Datatracker >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot=20 >>>>>>>>>> position for=20 >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line=20 >>>>>>>>>> intact and reply >>>>>>>> to all >>>>>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines.=20 >>>>>>>>>> (Feel free to >>>>>>>> cut this >>>>>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Please refer to >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions,=20 >>>>>>>>>> can be found >>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >> DISCUSS: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>=20 >>>>>>>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was=20 >>>>>>>>>> also commented >>>>>>>> in the TSV-ART >>>>>>>>>> review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service=20 >>>>>>>>>> MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies=20 >>>>>>>>>> the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority."=20 >>>>>>>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I >>>>>>>>>> assume the >>>>>>>> assumption here >>>>>>>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data=20 >>>>>>>>>> that is less >>>>>>>> important than >>>>>>>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic >>>>>>>>>> mapping >>>>>>>> document and should >>>>>>>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or >>>>>>>>>> at least it >>>>>>>> would need to be >>>>>>>>>> spelled out). >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >> COMMENT: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>=20 >>>>>>>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all >>>>>>>>>> text that >>>>>>>> was somehow deemed >>>>>>>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document >>>>>>>>>> got stuffed >>>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really=20 >>>>>>>>>> not needed >>>>>>>> in this document >>>>>>>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor=20 >>>>>>>>>> time, >>>>>>>> especially as they seem to >>>>>>>>>> have received less review and therefore have more=20 >>>>>>>>>> nits. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future=20 >>>>>>>>>> improvement/in OCB >>>>>>>> mode. A future >>>>>>>>>> improvement/ >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of=20 >>>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay=20 >>>>>>>>>> Ismail University Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of=20 >>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail >>>>>>>>> University Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its=20 >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org =20 >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -- John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher=20 >>>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, >>>>>>>> CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its=20 >>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org=20 >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing=20 >>>> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ its mailing list=20 >> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >=20 >=20 =20 _______________________________________________ its mailing list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its ------=_NextPart_000_017B_01D53F02.DFEEC7B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear = Alex, All,

 

I guess that on this aspect, we will need to agree = that we disagree :-)

 

As = accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum (so far) is still restricted by using the = ETSI stack, and as the ETSI stack uses QoS mapping to the QoSheaders = (the DCC and media-dependant Geonet specifications), then QoSheader are = required to access the ITS-G5 spectrum in EU...I shall also mention = (again..) that at that stage, accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum with 'pure' = IP over OCB is not allowed for commercial usage, as for this to = happen, two major aspects must be enforced:

1) a security framework is required =

2) a mechanism to enforce = IP-over-OCB to respect the duty cycle

 

Both = of these are not available so far for IP-over-OCB=E2=80=A6but I am not = sure (and I guess other might have different perspective on this, in = order to make this draft move on), is that such restrictions are = =E2=80=98spectrum=E2=80=99 specific=E2=80=A6, which is outside the scope = of the IETF (as I understand it)=E2=80=A6so, I would not see such lack = of specification blocking the current draft, considering the fact that = it includes a mention that regional/national restrictions could apply, = which would need an additional specifications (at a later = stage=E2=80=A6).

 

So, to = my perspective, it is not what is 'available' but what is = 'required'=E2=80=A6and this is pretty clear (and came straight from the = ETSI ITS chairs...)..

 

Yet, I = also think that from a global perspective, IP-over-OCB should not = enforce using QoSHeaders, considering

1) IP would provide the required priorization of = channel access

2) the draft would = indicate that this possibility is subject to national/regional = regulations that could say it differently.

And one = last thing: if you access ITS-G5 with nonQoSheader and other stations = have QoS headers, then you will systematically loose !! That is just due = to the fact that nonQoSheaders can access the channel only after an IDLE = DIFS time...while nonQoSheader uses IDLE AIFS times, which for 3 queues = out of 4 are shorter than the DIFS...(not mentioning the CW, which is = also significantly shorter) So, I would say that using nonQoSHeader will = lead to performance drop when competing with other ITS-G5/DSRC traffic = on a same channel...(as most ITS-G5/DSRC traffic is broadcast, their CW = will never increase (while yours might) and always be smaller than your = NonQoSHeader profile).

 

My two = cents,


BR,

 

J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me

 

-----Original Message-----
From: its = [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Petrescu
Sent: = Tuesday 16 July 2019 21:53
To: Russ Housley
Cc: Nabil Benamar; = Mirja Kuehlewind; IESG; its
Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: = (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

 

Russ,

 

Sorry = if the open-vs-closed text adds no clarity, but I do not know = how

to express it = better.

 

I think the special-purpose frequency allocation = for 802.11-OCB does not

impose QoS = Data headers, even though it does tell that range is = for

safety applications for = ITS.=C2=A0 I may be wrong though.

 

Finally, as far as I know, there are no = IPv6-over-OCB implementations

with = QoS Data headers, even if there are many implementations of = CAM

and BSM over 802.11-OCB with = such headers.=C2=A0 But I will be happy to stand

corrected if this were the case: is there an = implementation of

IPv6-over-OCB = with QoS Data headers?

 

Alex

 

Le = 16/07/2019 =C3=A0 18:56, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit :

> Alex:

>

> I = am very uncomfortable with your proposed text.=C2=A0 IEEE 802.11-OCB =

> uses special-purpose = frequency allocation.=C2=A0 I think the text about

> open vs. closed systems is going to add = confusion, not clarity.

> =

> Russ

>

> =

>> On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 = AM, Alexandre Petrescu

>> = <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>> Russ,

>>

>> Le 15/07/2019 =C3=A0 16:38, Russ Housley a = =C3=A9crit :

>>> Alex: Of = course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the

>>> values used for the QoS bits. What = would you like to see instead

>>>=C2=A0 of the second MUST? = Russ

>>

>> I would like to see something like = this:

>>

>> OLD:

>>> IP packets MUST be transmitted over = 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data

>>> frames whose format is specified in = IEEE 802.11 spec

>>> = [IEEE-802.11-2016]. The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB = are

>>> immediately = preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and

>>> an 802.11 header.=C2=A0 In the LLC = header, and in accordance with the

>>> EtherType Protocol Discrimination = (EPD, see Appendix D), the

>>> value of the Type field MUST be set to = 0x86DD (IPv6).=C2=A0 The

>>> mapping to the 802.11 data service = MUST use a 'priority' value of

>>> 1, which specifies the use of QoS with = a 'Background' user

>>> = priority.

>> =

>> NEW:

>>> The IPv6 packets transmitted on = 802.11-OCB are immediately

>>> preceded by a Logical Link Control = (LLC) header and an 802.11

>>> header.=C2=A0 In the LLC header, and = in accordance with the EtherType

>>>=C2=A0 Protocol Discrimination (EPD, = see Appendix D), the value of the

>>>=C2=A0 Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD = (IPv6). In open systems, the

>>> 802.11 header preceding the IP header = transmitted over 802.11-OCB

>>> media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. = In such systems, receivers

>>> of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST = understand and fully parse IP

>>> packets preceded by 802.11 Data = headers.=C2=A0 Receivers SHOULD NOT

>>> drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS = Data headers. In closed

>>> systems, the 802.11 header preceding = the IP header transmitted

>>> over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an = 802.11 QoS Data header.=C2=A0 In

>>> such systems, receivers of IP packets = over 802.11-OCB MUST

>>> = understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS = Data

>>> headers.=C2=A0 = In such systems, it is required that the mapping to the

>>> 802.11 data service MUST use a = 'priority' value of 1, which

>>> specifies the use of QoS with a = 'Background' user priority. The

>>> frame format of 802.11 Data headers = and QoS Data headers is

>>> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec = [IEEE-802.11-2016].

>> =

>> Alex

>>

>>>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, = Alexandre Petrescu

>>>> = <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ = Housley a =C3=A9crit :

>>>>> Alex: I did not add or remove = any MUST statements.=C2=A0 I only

>>>>> added a phrase of = rationale.

>>>> =

>>>> I agree that the = 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase

>>>> of rationale was = added.

>>>> =

>>>> The phrase of = rationale motivates the 2nd MUST.=C2=A0 It is

>>>> logical.

>>>>

>>>> I agree with the rationale but I = disagree with the MUST.

>>>>

>>>> (It is possible to implement the = rationale without doing the

>>>> MUST.=C2=A0 I.e. it is possible to = guarantee time-sensitiveness and

>>>>=C2=A0 criticality of safety by = increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS

>>>> priorities is but an alternative = to satisfy the rationale

>>>> within a limited = bandwidth.)

>>>> =

>>>> (the bandwidth = available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks

>>>>=C2=A0 at 16Mbit/s theoretical = within a range of approximately 1km

>>>> measured.=C2=A0 The number of OCB = interfaces in an OCB subnet of

>>>> that physical size is less than = hundreds, and certainly not

>>>> thousands.=C2=A0 Within these = dimensions, criticality and

>>>> time-sensitiveness could be = happening naturally.=C2=A0 An increase

>>>> in theoretical bandwidth to = approximately 54mbit/s would be

>>>> even more = sufficient)

>>>> =

>>>> (disturbing the = time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety

>>>> can be realized despite the = guarantees offered by QoS

>>>> priorities; radio jamming and IP = security attacks are easy to

>>>> perform and would overcome QoS = priorities.)

>>>> =

>>>> = Alex

>>>> =

>>>>> = Russ

>>>>>> On = Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu

>>>>>> = <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> hats and freedoms are = valuable.

>>>>>> =

>>>>>> I = disagree with the second MUST.=C2=A0 I will write a draft =

>>>>>> = IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Alex

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 = 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit :

>>>>>>> I suggest that the = MUST statement remain, but that a bit

>>>>>>>=C2=A0 of rationale be = provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on

>>>>>>>=C2=A0 802.11-OCB are = immediately preceded by a Logical Link

>>>>>>> Control (LLC) header = and an 802.11 header.=C2=A0 In the LLC

>>>>>>> header, and in = accordance with the EtherType Protocol

>>>>>>> Discrimination (EPD, = see Appendix D), the value of the

>>>>>>> Type field MUST be set = to 0x86DD (IPv6).=C2=A0 The mapping to

>>>>>>>=C2=A0 the 802.11 data = service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1

>>>>>>>=C2=A0 (QoS with a = 'Background' user priority), reserving

>>>>>>> higher priority values = for safety-critical and

>>>>>>> time-sensitive traffic = [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ

>>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, = at 7:40 PM, John Kenney

>>>>>>>> = <jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com

>>>>>>>> = <mailto:jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Hi = All:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I have no desire = to re-litigate the QoS issue. However,

>>>>>>>> it's important to = remember that IP-over-OCB will

>>>>>>>> typically share = public regulated spectrum with non-IP

>>>>>>>> safety-of-life = communications. In the US, FCC

>>>>>>>> regulations = require that such safety communications

>>>>>>>> have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A7 = 90.377(d)] .=C2=A0 I would be cautious about removing = the

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 current = language unless you are convinced that doing

>>>>>>>> so will not = adversely affect non-IP safety

>>>>>>>> = communications.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Best Regards, = John

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, = 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind

>>>>>>>> = <ietf@kuehlewind.net <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> =

>>>>>>>> = wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thanks. Removing = this text entirely is a good option.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> = Mirja

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> On 10. Jul = 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar

>>>>>>>> = <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma

>>>>>>>> = <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Hi = Mirja,

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Actually, the = text was written some time ago and

>>>>>>>>> different = views

>>>>>>>> were shared in the = group. I think we need to remove

>>>>>>>> this text to avoid = confusion.

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul = 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind

>>>>>>>> = <ietf@kuehlewind.net <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> =

>>>>>>>> = wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Hi = Nabil,

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> I think my = point was slightly different. Dorothy

>>>>>>>>> mainly = advised

>>>>>>>> you _how_ to = specify the priority. However my question

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 is rather = _if_ that is needed and if it is really

>>>>>>>> appropriate to use = a MUST here. Can you further explain

>>>>>>>> why that is seen = as a mandatory requirement?

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> = Mirja

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> On 9. Jul = 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar

>>>>>>>> = <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma

>>>>>>>> = <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Hi = Mirja,

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Thank you = for your review and comments.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> You raised = a very important point that was

>>>>>>>>>> = discussed

>>>>>>>> extensively on the = ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11

>>>>>>>> members (thanks to = Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a

>>>>>>>> review to help us = clarify this point.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Here is = what we got from them:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> .=C2=A0 = Suggest to simply state that the data is

>>>>>>>>>> = transmitted with

>>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CUser = Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), = and

>>>>>>>> leave the internal = details of how this is accomplished

>>>>>>>> to the 802.11 = specification.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> User = Priority is typically described as a simple

>>>>>>>>>> integer = (not

>>>>>>>> a binary value), = and the mapping of this User Priority

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 to TID = header value is another 802.11 detail, best

>>>>>>>> left to the 802.11 = specification.=C2=A0 For example: in the

>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 802.11 = specification the TID field is specified to be

>>>>>>>> 4 bits in the = header.=C2=A0 The use of these 4 bits to carry

>>>>>>>> the User Priority = information is an internal

>>>>>>>> specification of = 802.11 and potentially subject to

>>>>>>>> = change..

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Suggest = using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE

>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 = Std

>>>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause = 5.2.=C2=A0 This clause intentionally

>>>>>>>> abstracts the = exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal

>>>>>>>> operation, while = describing specifically the behavior

>>>>>>>> required by the = user.=C2=A0 For example, the following

>>>>>>>> = text:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> = =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype =

>>>>>>>>>> sub-field = in

>>>>>>>> the Frame Control = field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS

>>>>>>>> Data'); the value = of the Traffic Identifier (TID)

>>>>>>>> sub-field of the = QoS Control field of the 802.11 header

>>>>>>>> MUST be set to = binary 001 (i.e.=C2=A0 User Priority

>>>>>>>> 'Background', QoS = Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> could be = replaced by:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> = =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use = a

>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99

>>>>>>>> value of 1, which = specifies the use of QoS with a

>>>>>>>> = =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Thanks = again.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, = Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via

>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 = Datatracker

>>>>>>>> = <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> = wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot

>>>>>>>>>> position = for

>>>>>>>>>> = draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> When = responding, please keep the subject line

>>>>>>>>>> intact and = reply

>>>>>>>> to = all

>>>>>>>>>> email = addresses included in the To and CC lines.

>>>>>>>>>> (Feel free = to

>>>>>>>> cut = this

>>>>>>>>>> = introductory paragraph, however.)

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Please = refer to

>>>>>>>> = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html

<= p = class=3DMsoPlainText>>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>> for more information = about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> The = document, along with other ballot positions,

>>>>>>>>>> can be = found

>>>>>>>> = here:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>>

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>> = DISCUSS:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>>

>>>>>>>>>> One point = on this sentence, which I believe was

>>>>>>>>>> also = commented

>>>>>>>> in the = TSV-ART

>>>>>>>>>> review = (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> sec 4.2: = "The mapping to the 802.11 data service

>>>>>>>>>> MUST use a = 'priority' value of 1, which specifies

>>>>>>>>>> the use of = QoS with a 'Background' user priority."

>>>>>>>>>> I don't = think this should be a MUST requirement. I

>>>>>>>>>> assume = the

>>>>>>>> assumption = here

>>>>>>>>>> is that IP = traffic is always some "random" data

>>>>>>>>>> that is = less

>>>>>>>> important = than

>>>>>>>>>> other V2V = communication. However, this is a generic

>>>>>>>>>> = mapping

>>>>>>>> document and = should

>>>>>>>>>> therefore = probably not make such an assumption (or

>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 at = least it

>>>>>>>> would need to = be

>>>>>>>>>> spelled = out).

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>> = COMMENT:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>>

>>>>>>>>>> One = editorial high level comment: I seams like all

>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 text = that

>>>>>>>> was somehow = deemed

>>>>>>>>>> as out fo = scope for the main body of this document

>>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 got = stuffed

>>>>>>>> into = the

>>>>>>>>>> appendix. = Please consider removing what is really

>>>>>>>>>> not = needed

>>>>>>>> in this = document

>>>>>>>>>> as these = pages also take review and RFC Editor

>>>>>>>>>> = time,

>>>>>>>> especially as they = seem to

>>>>>>>>>> have = received less review and therefore have more

>>>>>>>>>> = nits.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> nit: sec = 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A=C2=A0 A future

>>>>>>>>>> = improvement/in OCB

>>>>>>>> mode. A = future

>>>>>>>>>> = improvement/

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> = --

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Best = Regards

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Nabil = Benamar Associate Professor Department of

>>>>>>>>>> Computer = Sciences School of Technology Moulay

>>>>>>>>>> Ismail = University Meknes. Morocco

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> = --

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Best = Regards

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar = Associate Professor Department of

>>>>>>>>> Computer = Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail

>>>>>>>>>=C2=A0 = University Meknes. Morocco

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = _______________________________________________ its

>>>>>>>> mailing list = its@ietf.org <mailto:its@ietf.org>

>>>>>>>> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> -- John Kenney = Director and Sr. Principal Researcher

>>>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech = Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View,

>>>>>>>> CA 94043 Tel: = 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644

>>>>>>> = _______________________________________________ its

>>>>>>> mailing list = its@ietf.org

>>>>>>> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>>>>

>>>> = _______________________________________________ its mailing =

>>>> list = its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>>

>> = _______________________________________________ its mailing list =

>> its@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>

> =

 

_______________________________________________=

its mailing list

its@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its=

------=_NextPart_000_017B_01D53F02.DFEEC7B0-- From nobody Sat Jul 20 05:07:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8747120A94; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:06:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x53CGfdB_GZE; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.eurecom.fr (smtp.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251361200B1; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:06:47 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.64,286,1559512800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="10617072" Received: from monza.eurecom.fr ([192.168.106.15]) by drago1i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 20 Jul 2019 14:06:25 +0200 Received: from xerus29 (unknown [192.168.200.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by monza.eurecom.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCF7E3281; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:06:23 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= To: "'Alexandre Petrescu'" , "'Russ Housley'" Cc: "'Nabil Benamar'" , "'Mirja Kuehlewind'" , "'IESG'" , "'its'" References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> <017a01d53ef2$1c5c5ac0$55151040$@eurecom.fr> In-Reply-To: <017a01d53ef2$1c5c5ac0$55151040$@eurecom.fr> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:06:23 +0200 Organization: EURECOM Message-ID: <01a101d53ef3$8cf7e910$a6e7bb30$@eurecom.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01A2_01D53F04.509AF7D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQE87Ki5V3dO7P1xsvZlLuQG9y2aKwDARcZbAe3DuYYCDAY+cgGfXjOTAbhr8foBa54+qAL0xFZSAYvPHywCBRRoAwKlH35XAd2qEXAB/5uZJgJ5T52NAnPuyxGnKHdMUA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:06:52 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01A2_01D53F04.509AF7D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, =20 Sorry misspelling=E2=80=A6 =20 (=E2=80=A6) That is just due to the fact that nonQoSheaders can access = the channel only after an IDLE DIFS time...while QoSheader uses IDLE = AIFS times, which for 3 queues out of 4 are shorter than the DIFS...(not = mentioning the CW, which is also significantly shorter) So, I would say = that using nonQoSHeader will lead to performance drop when competing = with other ITS-G5/DSRC traffic on a same channel...(as most ITS-G5/DSRC = traffic is broadcast, their CW will never increase (while yours might) = and always be smaller than your NonQoSHeader profile). =20 Best Regards, =20 J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me =20 -----Original Message----- From: its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Petrescu Sent: Tuesday 16 July 2019 21:53 To: Russ Housley Cc: Nabil Benamar; Mirja Kuehlewind; IESG; its Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) =20 Russ, =20 Sorry if the open-vs-closed text adds no clarity, but I do not know how to express it better. =20 I think the special-purpose frequency allocation for 802.11-OCB does not impose QoS Data headers, even though it does tell that range is for safety applications for ITS. I may be wrong though. =20 Finally, as far as I know, there are no IPv6-over-OCB implementations with QoS Data headers, even if there are many implementations of CAM and BSM over 802.11-OCB with such headers. But I will be happy to stand corrected if this were the case: is there an implementation of IPv6-over-OCB with QoS Data headers? =20 Alex =20 Le 16/07/2019 =C3=A0 18:56, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : > Alex: >=20 > I am very uncomfortable with your proposed text. IEEE 802.11-OCB=20 > uses special-purpose frequency allocation. I think the text about=20 > open vs. closed systems is going to add confusion, not clarity. >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Alexandre Petrescu=20 >> wrote: >>=20 >> Russ, >>=20 >> Le 15/07/2019 =C3=A0 16:38, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>> Alex: Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the=20 >>> values used for the QoS bits. What would you like to see instead >>> of the second MUST? Russ >>=20 >> I would like to see something like this: >>=20 >> OLD: >>> IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data=20 >>> frames whose format is specified in IEEE 802.11 spec=20 >>> [IEEE-802.11-2016]. The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are >>> immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and >>> an 802.11 header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the >>> EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the=20 >>> value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The=20 >>> mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of >>> 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user=20 >>> priority. >>=20 >> NEW: >>> The IPv6 packets transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately=20 >>> preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11=20 >>> header. In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType >>> Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the >>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). In open systems, the=20 >>> 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted over 802.11-OCB >>> media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. In such systems, receivers >>> of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST understand and fully parse IP >>> packets preceded by 802.11 Data headers. Receivers SHOULD NOT >>> drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data headers. In closed >>> systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted >>> over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an 802.11 QoS Data header. In >>> such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST >>> understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data >>> headers. In such systems, it is required that the mapping to the >>> 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which >>> specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. The >>> frame format of 802.11 Data headers and QoS Data headers is=20 >>> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec [IEEE-802.11-2016]. >>=20 >> Alex >>=20 >>>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu=20 >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>>>> Alex: I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only=20 >>>>> added a phrase of rationale. >>>>=20 >>>> I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase=20 >>>> of rationale was added. >>>>=20 >>>> The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is=20 >>>> logical. >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. >>>>=20 >>>> (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the=20 >>>> MUST. I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and >>>> criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS=20 >>>> priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale=20 >>>> within a limited bandwidth.) >>>>=20 >>>> (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks >>>> at 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km=20 >>>> measured. The number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of=20 >>>> that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not=20 >>>> thousands. Within these dimensions, criticality and=20 >>>> time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An increase=20 >>>> in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be=20 >>>> even more sufficient) >>>>=20 >>>> (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety=20 >>>> can be realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS=20 >>>> priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to=20 >>>> perform and would overcome QoS priorities.) >>>>=20 >>>> Alex >>>>=20 >>>>> Russ >>>>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu=20 >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> hats and freedoms are valuable. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft=20 >>>>>> IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Alex >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>>>>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit >>>>>>> of rationale be provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on >>>>>>> 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link=20 >>>>>>> Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In the LLC=20 >>>>>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol=20 >>>>>>> Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the=20 >>>>>>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to >>>>>>> the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1 >>>>>>> (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving=20 >>>>>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and=20 >>>>>>> time-sensitive traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ >>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney=20 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi All: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, >>>>>>>> it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will >>>>>>>> typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP >>>>>>>> safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC=20 >>>>>>>> regulations require that such safety communications=20 >>>>>>>> have access priority over other communications [47 CFR >>>>>>>> =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would be cautious about removing the >>>>>>>> current language unless you are convinced that doing=20 >>>>>>>> so will not adversely affect non-IP safety=20 >>>>>>>> communications. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Best Regards, John >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind=20 >>>>>>>> >=20 >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and=20 >>>>>>>>> different views >>>>>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove=20 >>>>>>>> this text to avoid confusion. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>>>>>> >=20 >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi Nabil, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy=20 >>>>>>>>> mainly advised >>>>>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question >>>>>>>> is rather _if_ that is needed and if it is really=20 >>>>>>>> appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further explain >>>>>>>> why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Mirja >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> You raised a very important point that was=20 >>>>>>>>>> discussed >>>>>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 >>>>>>>> members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a >>>>>>>> review to help us clarify this point. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Here is what we got from them: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> . Suggest to simply state that the data is=20 >>>>>>>>>> transmitted with >>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or = 2), and >>>>>>>> leave the internal details of how this is accomplished >>>>>>>> to the 802.11 specification. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple=20 >>>>>>>>>> integer (not >>>>>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority >>>>>>>> to TID header value is another 802.11 detail, best=20 >>>>>>>> left to the 802.11 specification. For example: in the >>>>>>>> 802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be=20 >>>>>>>> 4 bits in the header. The use of these 4 bits to carry >>>>>>>> the User Priority information is an internal=20 >>>>>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to=20 >>>>>>>> change.. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE >>>>>>>>>> Std >>>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally=20 >>>>>>>> abstracts the exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal=20 >>>>>>>> operation, while describing specifically the behavior=20 >>>>>>>> required by the user. For example, the following=20 >>>>>>>> text: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype=20 >>>>>>>>>> sub-field in >>>>>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS=20 >>>>>>>> Data'); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID)=20 >>>>>>>> sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header >>>>>>>> MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. User Priority=20 >>>>>>>> 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> could be replaced by: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>>>>>>>> =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 >>>>>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a=20 >>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via >>>>>>>>>> Datatracker >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot=20 >>>>>>>>>> position for=20 >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line=20 >>>>>>>>>> intact and reply >>>>>>>> to all >>>>>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines.=20 >>>>>>>>>> (Feel free to >>>>>>>> cut this >>>>>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Please refer to >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions,=20 >>>>>>>>>> can be found >>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >> DISCUSS: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>=20 >>>>>>>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was=20 >>>>>>>>>> also commented >>>>>>>> in the TSV-ART >>>>>>>>>> review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service=20 >>>>>>>>>> MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies=20 >>>>>>>>>> the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority."=20 >>>>>>>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I >>>>>>>>>> assume the >>>>>>>> assumption here >>>>>>>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data=20 >>>>>>>>>> that is less >>>>>>>> important than >>>>>>>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic >>>>>>>>>> mapping >>>>>>>> document and should >>>>>>>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or >>>>>>>>>> at least it >>>>>>>> would need to be >>>>>>>>>> spelled out). >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >> COMMENT: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>=20 >>>>>>>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all >>>>>>>>>> text that >>>>>>>> was somehow deemed >>>>>>>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document >>>>>>>>>> got stuffed >>>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really=20 >>>>>>>>>> not needed >>>>>>>> in this document >>>>>>>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor=20 >>>>>>>>>> time, >>>>>>>> especially as they seem to >>>>>>>>>> have received less review and therefore have more=20 >>>>>>>>>> nits. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future=20 >>>>>>>>>> improvement/in OCB >>>>>>>> mode. A future >>>>>>>>>> improvement/ >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of=20 >>>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay=20 >>>>>>>>>> Ismail University Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Best Regards >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of=20 >>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail >>>>>>>>> University Meknes. Morocco >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its=20 >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org =20 >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -- John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher=20 >>>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, >>>>>>>> CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its=20 >>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org=20 >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing=20 >>>> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ its mailing list=20 >> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >=20 >=20 =20 _______________________________________________ its mailing list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its ------=_NextPart_000_01A2_01D53F04.509AF7D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

 

Sorry = misspelling=E2=80=A6

 

(=E2=80=A6) = That is just due to the fact that nonQoSheaders can access the = channel only after an IDLE DIFS time...while QoSheader uses IDLE = AIFS times, which for 3 queues out of 4 are shorter than the DIFS...(not = mentioning the CW, which is also significantly shorter) So, I would say = that using nonQoSHeader will lead to performance drop when competing = with other ITS-G5/DSRC traffic on a same channel...(as most ITS-G5/DSRC = traffic is broadcast, their CW will never increase (while yours might) = and always be smaller than your NonQoSHeader profile).

 

Best = Regards,

 

J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me

 

-----Original Message-----
From: its = [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Petrescu
Sent: = Tuesday 16 July 2019 21:53
To: Russ Housley
Cc: Nabil Benamar; = Mirja Kuehlewind; IESG; its
Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: = (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

 

Russ,

 

Sorry = if the open-vs-closed text adds no clarity, but I do not know = how

to express it = better.

 

I think the special-purpose frequency allocation = for 802.11-OCB does not

impose QoS = Data headers, even though it does tell that range is = for

safety applications for = ITS.  I may be wrong though.

 

Finally, as far as I know, there are no = IPv6-over-OCB implementations

with = QoS Data headers, even if there are many implementations of = CAM

and BSM over 802.11-OCB with = such headers.  But I will be happy to stand

corrected if this were the case: is there an = implementation of

IPv6-over-OCB = with QoS Data headers?

 

Alex

 

Le = 16/07/2019 =C3=A0 18:56, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit :

> Alex:

>

> I = am very uncomfortable with your proposed text.  IEEE 802.11-OCB =

> uses special-purpose = frequency allocation.  I think the text about

> open vs. closed systems is going to add = confusion, not clarity.

> =

> Russ

>

> =

>> On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 = AM, Alexandre Petrescu

>> = <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>> Russ,

>>

>> Le 15/07/2019 =C3=A0 16:38, Russ Housley a = =C3=A9crit :

>>> Alex: Of = course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the

>>> values used for the QoS bits. What = would you like to see instead

>>>  of the second MUST? = Russ

>>

>> I would like to see something like = this:

>>

>> OLD:

>>> IP packets MUST be transmitted over = 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data

>>> frames whose format is specified in = IEEE 802.11 spec

>>> = [IEEE-802.11-2016]. The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB = are

>>> immediately = preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and

>>> an 802.11 header.  In the LLC = header, and in accordance with the

>>> EtherType Protocol Discrimination = (EPD, see Appendix D), the

>>> value of the Type field MUST be set to = 0x86DD (IPv6).  The

>>> mapping to the 802.11 data service = MUST use a 'priority' value of

>>> 1, which specifies the use of QoS with = a 'Background' user

>>> = priority.

>> =

>> NEW:

>>> The IPv6 packets transmitted on = 802.11-OCB are immediately

>>> preceded by a Logical Link Control = (LLC) header and an 802.11

>>> header.  In the LLC header, and = in accordance with the EtherType

>>>  Protocol Discrimination (EPD, = see Appendix D), the value of the

>>>  Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD = (IPv6). In open systems, the

>>> 802.11 header preceding the IP header = transmitted over 802.11-OCB

>>> media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. = In such systems, receivers

>>> of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST = understand and fully parse IP

>>> packets preceded by 802.11 Data = headers.  Receivers SHOULD NOT

>>> drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS = Data headers. In closed

>>> systems, the 802.11 header preceding = the IP header transmitted

>>> over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an = 802.11 QoS Data header.  In

>>> such systems, receivers of IP packets = over 802.11-OCB MUST

>>> = understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS = Data

>>> headers.  = In such systems, it is required that the mapping to the

>>> 802.11 data service MUST use a = 'priority' value of 1, which

>>> specifies the use of QoS with a = 'Background' user priority. The

>>> frame format of 802.11 Data headers = and QoS Data headers is

>>> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec = [IEEE-802.11-2016].

>> =

>> Alex

>>

>>>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, = Alexandre Petrescu

>>>> = <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ = Housley a =C3=A9crit :

>>>>> Alex: I did not add or remove = any MUST statements.  I only

>>>>> added a phrase of = rationale.

>>>> =

>>>> I agree that the = 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase

>>>> of rationale was = added.

>>>> =

>>>> The phrase of = rationale motivates the 2nd MUST.  It is

>>>> logical.

>>>>

>>>> I agree with the rationale but I = disagree with the MUST.

>>>>

>>>> (It is possible to implement the = rationale without doing the

>>>> MUST.  I.e. it is possible to = guarantee time-sensitiveness and

>>>>  criticality of safety by = increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS

>>>> priorities is but an alternative = to satisfy the rationale

>>>> within a limited = bandwidth.)

>>>> =

>>>> (the bandwidth = available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks

>>>>  at 16Mbit/s theoretical = within a range of approximately 1km

>>>> measured.  The number of OCB = interfaces in an OCB subnet of

>>>> that physical size is less than = hundreds, and certainly not

>>>> thousands.  Within these = dimensions, criticality and

>>>> time-sensitiveness could be = happening naturally.  An increase

>>>> in theoretical bandwidth to = approximately 54mbit/s would be

>>>> even more = sufficient)

>>>> =

>>>> (disturbing the = time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety

>>>> can be realized despite the = guarantees offered by QoS

>>>> priorities; radio jamming and IP = security attacks are easy to

>>>> perform and would overcome QoS = priorities.)

>>>> =

>>>> = Alex

>>>> =

>>>>> = Russ

>>>>>> On = Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu

>>>>>> = <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>> hats and freedoms are = valuable.

>>>>>> =

>>>>>> I = disagree with the second MUST.  I will write a draft =

>>>>>> = IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Alex

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 = 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit :

>>>>>>> I suggest that the = MUST statement remain, but that a bit

>>>>>>>  of rationale be = provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on

>>>>>>>  802.11-OCB are = immediately preceded by a Logical Link

>>>>>>> Control (LLC) header = and an 802.11 header.  In the LLC

>>>>>>> header, and in = accordance with the EtherType Protocol

>>>>>>> Discrimination (EPD, = see Appendix D), the value of the

>>>>>>> Type field MUST be set = to 0x86DD (IPv6).  The mapping to

>>>>>>>  the 802.11 data = service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1

>>>>>>>  (QoS with a = 'Background' user priority), reserving

>>>>>>> higher priority values = for safety-critical and

>>>>>>> time-sensitive traffic = [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ

>>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, = at 7:40 PM, John Kenney

>>>>>>>> = <jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com

>>>>>>>> = <mailto:jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Hi = All:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I have no desire = to re-litigate the QoS issue. However,

>>>>>>>> it's important to = remember that IP-over-OCB will

>>>>>>>> typically share = public regulated spectrum with non-IP

>>>>>>>> safety-of-life = communications. In the US, FCC

>>>>>>>> regulations = require that such safety communications

>>>>>>>> have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR

>>>>>>>>  =C2=A7 = 90.377(d)] .  I would be cautious about removing = the

>>>>>>>>  current = language unless you are convinced that doing

>>>>>>>> so will not = adversely affect non-IP safety

>>>>>>>> = communications.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Best Regards, = John

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, = 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind

>>>>>>>> = <ietf@kuehlewind.net <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> =

>>>>>>>> = wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thanks. Removing = this text entirely is a good option.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> = Mirja

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>> On 10. Jul = 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar

>>>>>>>> = <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma

>>>>>>>> = <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Hi = Mirja,

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Actually, the = text was written some time ago and

>>>>>>>>> different = views

>>>>>>>> were shared in the = group. I think we need to remove

>>>>>>>> this text to avoid = confusion.

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul = 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind

>>>>>>>> = <ietf@kuehlewind.net <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> =

>>>>>>>> = wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Hi = Nabil,

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> I think my = point was slightly different. Dorothy

>>>>>>>>> mainly = advised

>>>>>>>> you _how_ to = specify the priority. However my question

>>>>>>>>  is rather = _if_ that is needed and if it is really

>>>>>>>> appropriate to use = a MUST here. Can you further explain

>>>>>>>> why that is seen = as a mandatory requirement?

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> = Mirja

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> On 9. Jul = 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar

>>>>>>>> = <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma

>>>>>>>> = <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Hi = Mirja,

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Thank you = for your review and comments.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> You raised = a very important point that was

>>>>>>>>>> = discussed

>>>>>>>> extensively on the = ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11

>>>>>>>> members (thanks to = Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a

>>>>>>>> review to help us = clarify this point.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Here is = what we got from them:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> .  = Suggest to simply state that the data is

>>>>>>>>>> = transmitted with

>>>>>>>> =E2=80=9CUser = Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or 2), = and

>>>>>>>> leave the internal = details of how this is accomplished

>>>>>>>> to the 802.11 = specification.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> User = Priority is typically described as a simple

>>>>>>>>>> integer = (not

>>>>>>>> a binary value), = and the mapping of this User Priority

>>>>>>>>  to TID = header value is another 802.11 detail, best

>>>>>>>> left to the 802.11 = specification.  For example: in the

>>>>>>>>  802.11 = specification the TID field is specified to be

>>>>>>>> 4 bits in the = header.  The use of these 4 bits to carry

>>>>>>>> the User Priority = information is an internal

>>>>>>>> specification of = 802.11 and potentially subject to

>>>>>>>> = change..

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Suggest = using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE

>>>>>>>>>>  = Std

>>>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause = 5.2.  This clause intentionally

>>>>>>>> abstracts the = exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal

>>>>>>>> operation, while = describing specifically the behavior

>>>>>>>> required by the = user.  For example, the following

>>>>>>>> = text:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> = =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype =

>>>>>>>>>> sub-field = in

>>>>>>>> the Frame Control = field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS

>>>>>>>> Data'); the value = of the Traffic Identifier (TID)

>>>>>>>> sub-field of the = QoS Control field of the 802.11 header

>>>>>>>> MUST be set to = binary 001 (i.e.  User Priority

>>>>>>>> 'Background', QoS = Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> could be = replaced by:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> = =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use = a

>>>>>>>>>>  = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99

>>>>>>>> value of 1, which = specifies the use of QoS with a

>>>>>>>> = =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D user priority.=E2=80=9D

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Thanks = again.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, = Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via

>>>>>>>>>>  = Datatracker

>>>>>>>> = <noreply@ietf.org <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> = wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot

>>>>>>>>>> position = for

>>>>>>>>>> = draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> When = responding, please keep the subject line

>>>>>>>>>> intact and = reply

>>>>>>>> to = all

>>>>>>>>>> email = addresses included in the To and CC lines.

>>>>>>>>>> (Feel free = to

>>>>>>>> cut = this

>>>>>>>>>> = introductory paragraph, however.)

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Please = refer to

>>>>>>>> = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html

<= p = class=3DMsoPlainText>>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>> for more information = about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> The = document, along with other ballot positions,

>>>>>>>>>> can be = found

>>>>>>>> = here:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>>

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>> = DISCUSS:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>>

>>>>>>>>>> One point = on this sentence, which I believe was

>>>>>>>>>> also = commented

>>>>>>>> in the = TSV-ART

>>>>>>>>>> review = (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> sec 4.2: = "The mapping to the 802.11 data service

>>>>>>>>>> MUST use a = 'priority' value of 1, which specifies

>>>>>>>>>> the use of = QoS with a 'Background' user priority."

>>>>>>>>>> I don't = think this should be a MUST requirement. I

>>>>>>>>>> assume = the

>>>>>>>> assumption = here

>>>>>>>>>> is that IP = traffic is always some "random" data

>>>>>>>>>> that is = less

>>>>>>>> important = than

>>>>>>>>>> other V2V = communication. However, this is a generic

>>>>>>>>>> = mapping

>>>>>>>> document and = should

>>>>>>>>>> therefore = probably not make such an assumption (or

>>>>>>>>>>  at = least it

>>>>>>>> would need to = be

>>>>>>>>>> spelled = out).

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>> = COMMENT:

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> =

>>

>>>>>>>>>> One = editorial high level comment: I seams like all

>>>>>>>>>>  text = that

>>>>>>>> was somehow = deemed

>>>>>>>>>> as out fo = scope for the main body of this document

>>>>>>>>>>  got = stuffed

>>>>>>>> into = the

>>>>>>>>>> appendix. = Please consider removing what is really

>>>>>>>>>> not = needed

>>>>>>>> in this = document

>>>>>>>>>> as these = pages also take review and RFC Editor

>>>>>>>>>> = time,

>>>>>>>> especially as they = seem to

>>>>>>>>>> have = received less review and therefore have more

>>>>>>>>>> = nits.

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> nit: sec = 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A  A future

>>>>>>>>>> = improvement/in OCB

>>>>>>>> mode. A = future

>>>>>>>>>> = improvement/

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> = --

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Best = Regards

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> Nabil = Benamar Associate Professor Department of

>>>>>>>>>> Computer = Sciences School of Technology Moulay

>>>>>>>>>> Ismail = University Meknes. Morocco

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> = --

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Best = Regards

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar = Associate Professor Department of

>>>>>>>>> Computer = Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail

>>>>>>>>>  = University Meknes. Morocco

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> =

>>>>>>>> = _______________________________________________ its

>>>>>>>> mailing list = its@ietf.org <mailto:its@ietf.org>

>>>>>>>> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> -- John Kenney = Director and Sr. Principal Researcher

>>>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech = Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View,

>>>>>>>> CA 94043 Tel: = 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644

>>>>>>> = _______________________________________________ its

>>>>>>> mailing list = its@ietf.org

>>>>>>> = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>>>>

>>>> = _______________________________________________ its mailing =

>>>> list = its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>>

>> = _______________________________________________ its mailing list =

>> its@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

>

> =

 

_______________________________________________=

its mailing list

its@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its=

------=_NextPart_000_01A2_01D53F04.509AF7D0-- From nobody Sat Jul 20 05:24:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA20120A98; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:24:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q_50fD1l0ghK; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.eurecom.fr (smtp.eurecom.fr [193.55.113.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F849120A9B; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 05:24:41 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.64,286,1559512800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="10617127" Received: from monza.eurecom.fr ([192.168.106.15]) by drago1i.eurecom.fr with ESMTP; 20 Jul 2019 14:24:41 +0200 Received: from xerus29 (unknown [192.168.200.30]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by monza.eurecom.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4141A32B7; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:24:40 +0200 (CEST) From: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= To: "'John Kenney'" , "'Alexandre Petrescu'" Cc: "'Nabil Benamar'" , "'Russ Housley'" , "'Mirja Kuehlewind'" , "'IESG'" , "'its'" References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 14:24:39 +0200 Organization: EURECOM Message-ID: <01ae01d53ef6$1a909ea0$4fb1dbe0$@eurecom.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01AF_01D53F06.DE230B90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQE87Ki5V3dO7P1xsvZlLuQG9y2aKwDARcZbAe3DuYYCDAY+cgGfXjOTAbhr8foBa54+qAL0xFZSAYvPHywCBRRoAwH8UWIfp3QStrA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:24:46 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01AF_01D53F06.DE230B90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, =20 I support John=E2=80=99s comment and would like to add three additional = points: 1) The ETSI (at least that I am aware) enforces a given duty cycle = (a given % of channel access time) that a station SHALL not exceed. That = is there to avoid starving competitions by one or more = stations=E2=80=A6and to give equal chances of different stations to = access the channel=E2=80=A6simply increasing the Mbps on the ITS = spectrum is not a straightforward strategy as it could lead to exceed = the duty cycle and such not be compliant to the requirements specified = by the ECC (not even ETSI only). 2) The target Mbps that is used by ITS-G5/OCB in automotive = applications is a trade-off between capacity and reliability. As it has = been recently showed in a paper by Sepulcre et al. Why 6 Mbps is Not = (Always) the Optimum Data Rate for Beaconing in Vehicular Networks , = https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7906621), there is a = strong link between increasing the data rate and the tx range and = reliability. Again, via a series of simulation AND experimentations, = indeed you can gain a bit up to maybe 18Mbps considering you would = increase the Tx power accordingly, but moving to 54Mbps is not reachable = in practice=E2=80=A6(unless you use unicast and you are more or less the = only one transmitting and you are in a (very) short distance with a = perfect channel).. 3) Finally, if there were no congestions, then people would not be = seeking capacity in additional channels=E2=80=A6(off-loading of CPM/MCM = content in adjacent channels).. so, empirically speaking, it indicates = that people expect a clear and present congestion in ITS-G5/DSRC (not = even mentioning C-V2X competing maybe=E2=80=A6) with all current and = future applications and as such, a congestion control mechanism is = critical J=20 =20 BR, =20 J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me =20 =20 From: its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John Kenney Sent: Monday 15 July 2019 17:33 To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Nabil Benamar; Russ Housley; Mirja Kuehlewind; IESG; its Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss on = draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) =20 Hi All: =20 I don=E2=80=99t want to be argumentative, but I believe automotive = experts would disagree with this back-of-the-envelope analysis. Channel = congestion is a real concern. It can arise on channels carrying key = safety services like collision avoidance (BSM/CAM/DENM), personal safety = (for pedestrians, bicyclists and other vulnerable road users), = platooning, cooperative perception, and many I2V services. SAE and ETSI = have taken concrete steps to standardize congestion control. IEEE 1609 = and ETSI require use of QoS packets, because prioritizing channel access = is an important tool to mitigate the effects of congestion on channels = with mixed traffic.=20 =20 The interference range will typically go well beyond 1 km (I.e. 500 m = radius). Density studies have shown realistic densities of more than = one thousand in an interference range, and that is what we plan for. =20 Interested parties are invited to participate in standardization related = to scalability issues at SAE, IEEE 1609, and ETSI. =20 Best Regards, John =20 On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 6:32 AM Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : > Alex: >=20 > I did not add or remove any MUST statements. I only added a phrase of = rationale. I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of=20 rationale was added. The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST. It is logical. I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the MUST. I.e. = it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety = by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an alternative=20 to satisfy the rationale within a limited bandwidth.) (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at=20 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured. The=20 number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is less=20 than hundreds, and certainly not thousands. Within these dimensions,=20 criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally. An=20 increase in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be=20 even more sufficient) (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety can be=20 realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS priorities; radio jamming = and IP security attacks are easy to perform and would overcome QoS=20 priorities.) Alex >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >> >> hats and freedoms are valuable. >> >> I disagree with the second MUST. I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB = without QoS headers. >> >> Alex >> >> Le 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit : >>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of = rationale be provided: >>> The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately = preceded by >>> a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header. In = the LLC >>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol = Discrimination >>> (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set = to >>> 0x86DD (IPv6). The mapping to the 802..11 data service MUST use = a >>> 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving >>> higher priority values for safety-critical and time-sensitive >>> traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. >>> Russ >>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All: >>>> >>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's = important to remember that IP-over-OCB will typically share public = regulated spectrum with non-IP safety-of-life communications. In the US, = FCC regulations require that such safety communications have access = priority over other communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] . I would = be cautious about removing the current language unless you are convinced = that doing so will not adversely affect non-IP safety communications. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> John >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind = > wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. >>>> >>>> Mirja >>>> >>>> >>>> > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar >>>> = > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Hi Mirja, >>>> > >>>> > Actually, the text was written some time ago and different = views >>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove this text = to >>>> avoid confusion. >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind >>>> > wrote: >>>> > Hi Nabil, >>>> > >>>> > I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy mainly = advised >>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is = rather >>>> _if_ that is needed and if it is really appropriate to use a = MUST >>>> here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a mandatory >>>> requirement? >>>> > >>>> > Mirja >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar >>>> = > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > Hi Mirja, >>>> > > >>>> > > Thank you for your review and comments. >>>> > > >>>> > > You raised a very important point that was discussed >>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 members >>>> (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a review to help = us >>>> clarify this point. >>>> > > >>>> > > Here is what we got from them: >>>> > > >>>> > > . Suggest to simply state that the data is transmitted = with >>>> =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically 1 or = 2), and leave the >>>> internal details of how this is accomplished to the 802.11 >>>> specification. >>>> > > >>>> > > User Priority is typically described as a simple integer = (not >>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to TID >>>> header value is another 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11 >>>> specification. For example: in the 802.11 specification the = TID >>>> field is specified to be 4 bits in the header. The use of = these 4 >>>> bits to carry the User Priority information is an internal >>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to change.. >>>> > > >>>> > > Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std >>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2. This clause intentionally abstracts = the >>>> exact details of 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while = describing >>>> specifically the behavior required by the user. For example, = the >>>> following text: >>>> > > >>>> > > =E2=80=9CIn the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype = sub-field in >>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the >>>> value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS = Control >>>> field of the 802.11 header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e. = User >>>> Priority 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D >>>> > > >>>> > > could be replaced by: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > =E2=80=9CThe mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99 >>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a = =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D >>>> user priority.=E2=80=9D >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Thanks again. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot = position for >>>> > > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss >>>> > > >>>> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and = reply >>>> to all >>>> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to >>>> cut this >>>> > > introductory paragraph, however.) >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Please refer to >>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be = found >>>> here: >>>> > > >>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > DISCUSS: >>>> > > >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > >>>> > > One point on this sentence, which I believe was also = commented >>>> in the TSV-ART >>>> > > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!): >>>> > > >>>> > > sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a >>>> > > 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS = with a >>>> > > 'Background' user priority." >>>> > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I assume = the >>>> assumption here >>>> > > is that IP traffic is always some "random" data that is = less >>>> important than >>>> > > other V2V communication. However, this is a generic mapping >>>> document and should >>>> > > therefore probably not make such an assumption (or at least = it >>>> would need to be >>>> > > spelled out). >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > COMMENT: >>>> > > >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > >>>> > > One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text = that >>>> was somehow deemed >>>> > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got = stuffed >>>> into the >>>> > > appendix. Please consider removing what is really not = needed >>>> in this document >>>> > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, >>>> especially as they seem to >>>> > > have received less review and therefore have more nits. >>>> > > >>>> > > nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB >>>> mode. A future >>>> > > improvement/ >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > >>>> > > Best Regards >>>> > > >>>> > > Nabil Benamar >>>> > > Associate Professor >>>> > > Department of Computer Sciences >>>> > > School of Technology >>>> > > Moulay Ismail University >>>> > > Meknes. Morocco >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > >>>> > Best Regards >>>> > >>>> > Nabil Benamar >>>> > Associate Professor >>>> > Department of Computer Sciences >>>> > School of Technology >>>> > Moulay Ismail University >>>> > Meknes. Morocco >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> its mailing list >>>> its@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> John Kenney >>>> Director and Sr. Principal Researcher >>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs >>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue >>>> Mountain View, CA 94043 >>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> its mailing list >>> its@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ its mailing list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its --=20 John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 ------=_NextPart_000_01AF_01D53F06.DE230B90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

 

I support John=E2=80=99s comment and would like to add three = additional points:

1)      = The ETSI (at least that I am aware) enforces a given duty cycle (a = given % of channel access time) that a station SHALL not exceed. That is = there to avoid starving competitions by one or more stations=E2=80=A6and = to give equal chances of different stations to access the = channel=E2=80=A6simply increasing the Mbps on the ITS spectrum is not a = straightforward strategy as it could lead to exceed the duty cycle and = such not be compliant to the requirements specified by the ECC (not even = ETSI only).

2)      = The target Mbps that is used by ITS-G5/OCB in automotive applications = is a trade-off between capacity and reliability. As it has been recently = showed in a paper by Sepulcre et al. Why 6 Mbps is Not (Always) the = Optimum Data Rate for Beaconing in Vehicular Networks , https://ie= eexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7906621), there is a strong link = between increasing the data rate and the tx range and reliability. = Again, via a series of simulation AND experimentations, indeed you can = gain a bit up to maybe 18Mbps considering you would increase the Tx = power accordingly, but moving to 54Mbps is not reachable in = practice=E2=80=A6(unless you use unicast and you are more or less the = only one transmitting and you are in a (very) short distance with a = perfect channel)..

3)      = Finally, if there were no congestions, then people would not be = seeking capacity in additional channels=E2=80=A6(off-loading of CPM/MCM = content in adjacent channels).. so, empirically speaking, it indicates = that people expect a clear and present congestion in ITS-G5/DSRC (not = even mentioning C-V2X competing maybe=E2=80=A6) with all current and = future applications and as such, a congestion control mechanism is = critical J

 

BR,

 

J=C3=A9r=C3=B4me =C2=A0=C2=A0

 

From:= = its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of John = Kenney
Sent: Monday 15 July 2019 17:33
To: Alexandre = Petrescu
Cc: Nabil Benamar; Russ Housley; Mirja Kuehlewind; = IESG; its
Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's Discuss = on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and = COMMENT)

 

Hi = All:

 

I = don=E2=80=99t want to be argumentative, but I believe automotive experts = would disagree with this back-of-the-envelope analysis. Channel = congestion is a real concern.  It can arise on channels carrying = key safety services like collision avoidance (BSM/CAM/DENM), personal = safety (for pedestrians, bicyclists and other vulnerable road users), = platooning, cooperative perception, and many I2V services.  SAE and = ETSI have taken concrete steps to standardize congestion control. IEEE = 1609 and ETSI require use of QoS packets, because prioritizing channel = access is an important tool to mitigate the effects of congestion on = channels with mixed traffic. 

 

The interference range will typically go well beyond 1 = km (I.e. 500 m radius).  Density studies have shown realistic = densities of more than one thousand in an interference range, and that = is what we plan for.

 

Interested parties are invited to participate in = standardization related to scalability issues at SAE, IEEE 1609, and = ETSI.

 

Best Regards,

John

 

On = Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 6:32 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com= > wrote:



Le 13/07/2019 =C3=A0 04:53, Russ Housley a = =C3=A9crit :
> Alex:
>
> I did not add or remove = any MUST statements.  I only added a phrase of rationale.

I = agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase of =
rationale was added.

The phrase of rationale motivates the = 2nd MUST.  It is logical.

I agree with the rationale but I = disagree with the MUST.

(It is possible to implement the = rationale without doing the MUST.  I.e.
it is possible to = guarantee time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety
by increasing = bandwidth; reserving QoS priorities is but an alternative
to satisfy = the rationale within a limited bandwidth.)

(the bandwidth = available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks at
16Mbit/s = theoretical within a range of approximately 1km measured.  The =
number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of that physical size is = less
than hundreds, and certainly not thousands.  Within these = dimensions,
criticality and time-sensitiveness could be happening = naturally.  An
increase in theoretical bandwidth to = approximately 54mbit/s would be
even more = sufficient)

(disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of = safety can be
realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS = priorities; radio jamming
and IP security attacks are easy to = perform and would overcome QoS
priorities.)

Alex

> =
> Russ
>
>
>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, = Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> = wrote:
>>
>> hats and freedoms are = valuable.
>>
>> I disagree with the second MUST.  = I will write a draft IPv6-over-OCB without QoS = headers.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> Le = 11/07/2019 =C3=A0 17:51, Russ Housley a =C3=A9crit :
>>> I = suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit of rationale be = provided:
>>>     The IPv6 packet transmitted = on 802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by
>>>    =  a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header.  In = the LLC
>>>     header, and in accordance = with the EtherType Protocol Discrimination
>>>    =  (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the Type field MUST be set = to
>>>     0x86DD (IPv6).  The mapping = to the 802..11 data service MUST use a
>>>    =  'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), = reserving
>>>     higher priority values for = safety-critical and time-sensitive
>>>    =  traffic [IEEE-1609.2].
>>> Russ
>>>> On = Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney <jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com <mailto:jkenney@us.toyota-itc.com>> = wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi = All:
>>>>
>>>> I have no desire to = re-litigate the QoS issue. However, it's important to remember that = IP-over-OCB will typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP = safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC regulations require that = such safety communications have access priority over other = communications [47 CFR =C2=A7 90.377(d)] .  I would be cautious = about removing the current language unless you are convinced that doing = so will not adversely affect non-IP safety = communications.
>>>>
>>>> Best = Regards,
>>>> = John
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at = 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> = wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    =  Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good = option.
>>>>
>>>>    =  Mirja
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>&n= bsp;    > On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil = Benamar
>>>>     <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> = wrote:
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > Hi = Mirja,
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > Actually, the = text was written some time ago and different = views
>>>>     were shared in the group. I = think we need to remove this text to
>>>>    =  avoid confusion.
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > On Wed, Jul 10, = 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind
>>>>    =  <ietf@kuehlewind.net <mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net>> = wrote:
>>>>     > Hi = Nabil,
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > I think my point = was slightly different. Dorothy mainly advised
>>>>  =    you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question is = rather
>>>>     _if_ that is needed and if = it is really appropriate to use a MUST
>>>>    =  here. Can you further explain why that is seen as a = mandatory
>>>>    =  requirement?
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > = Mirja
>>>>    =  >
>>>>    =  >
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > > On 9. Jul = 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar
>>>>    =  <n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma <mailto:n.benamar@est.umi.ac.ma>> = wrote:
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > Hi = Mirja,
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > Thank you for your = review and comments.
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > You raised a very = important point that was discussed
>>>>    =  extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 = members
>>>>     (thanks to Dorothy = Stanly) to provide us with a review to help us
>>>>  =    clarify this point.
>>>>    =  > >
>>>>     > > Here is = what we got from them:
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > .  Suggest to = simply state that the data is transmitted with
>>>>  =    =E2=80=9CUser Priority=E2=80=9D of Background (numerically = 1 or 2), and leave the
>>>>     internal = details of how this is accomplished to the = 802.11
>>>>    =  specification.
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > User Priority is = typically described as a simple integer (not
>>>>  =    a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority to = TID
>>>>     header value is another = 802.11 detail, best left to the 802.11
>>>>    =  specification.  For example: in the 802.11 specification the = TID
>>>>     field is specified to be 4 = bits in the header.  The use of these 4
>>>>  =    bits to carry the User Priority information is an = internal
>>>>     specification of 802.11 = and potentially subject to change..
>>>>    =  > >
>>>>     > > Suggest = using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE Std
>>>>  =    802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.  This clause intentionally = abstracts the
>>>>     exact details of = 802..11=E2=80=99s internal operation, while = describing
>>>>     specifically the = behavior required by the user.  For example, = the
>>>>     following = text:
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > =E2=80=9CIn the = 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype sub-field = in
>>>>     the Frame Control field MUST = be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS Data'); the
>>>>    =  value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) sub-field of the QoS = Control
>>>>     field of the 802.11 = header MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.  = User
>>>>     Priority 'Background', QoS = Access Category 'AC_BK').=E2=80=9D
>>>>    =  > >
>>>>     > > could = be replaced by:
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > =E2=80=9CThe = mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a = =E2=80=98priority=E2=80=99
>>>>     value = of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a = =E2=80=9CBackground=E2=80=9D
>>>>     user = priority.=E2=80=9D
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > Thanks = again.
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > On Tue, Jul 9, = 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via = Datatracker
>>>>     <noreply@ietf.org = <mailto:noreply@ietf.org>> = wrote:
>>>>     > > Mirja = K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position = for
>>>>     > > = draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: = Discuss
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > When responding, = please keep the subject line intact and reply
>>>>  =    to all
>>>>     > > = email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to
>>>>     cut = this
>>>>     > > introductory = paragraph, however.)
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > Please refer = to
>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht= ml
>>>>     > > for more = information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT = positions.
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > The document, = along with other ballot positions, can be = found
>>>>    =  here:
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6= -over-80211ocb/
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>    =  -------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>>>>     > > = DISCUSS:
>>>>     > = >
>>>>    =  -------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > One point on this = sentence, which I believe was also commented
>>>>  =    in the TSV-ART
>>>>     > = > review (Thanks J=C3=B6rg!):
>>>>    =  > >
>>>>     > > sec = 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use = a
>>>>     > >    = 'priority' value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with = a
>>>>     > >    = 'Background' user priority."
>>>>    =  > > I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I = assume the
>>>>     assumption = here
>>>>     > > is that IP traffic = is always some "random" data that is = less
>>>>     important = than
>>>>     > > other V2V = communication. However, this is a generic = mapping
>>>>     document and = should
>>>>     > > therefore = probably not make such an assumption (or at least = it
>>>>     would need to = be
>>>>     > > spelled = out).
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>    =  -------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>>>>     > > = COMMENT:
>>>>     > = >
>>>>    =  -------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > One editorial high = level comment: I seams like all text that
>>>>  =    was somehow deemed
>>>>    =  > > as out fo scope for the main body of this document got = stuffed
>>>>     into = the
>>>>     > > appendix. Please = consider removing what is really not needed
>>>>  =    in this document
>>>>    =  > > as these pages also take review and RFC Editor = time,
>>>>     especially as they seem = to
>>>>     > > have received less = review and therefore have more nits.
>>>>    =  > >
>>>>     > > nit: = sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A  A future improvement/in = OCB
>>>>     mode. A = future
>>>>     > > = improvement/
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > = --
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > Best = Regards
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > > Nabil = Benamar
>>>>     > > Associate = Professor
>>>>     > > Department of = Computer Sciences
>>>>     > > = School of Technology
>>>>     > > = Moulay Ismail University
>>>>     > = > Meknes. Morocco
>>>>     > = >
>>>>     > = >
>>>>    =  >
>>>>    =  >
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > = --
>>>>     >
>>>>  =    > Best Regards
>>>>    =  >
>>>>     > Nabil = Benamar
>>>>     > Associate = Professor
>>>>     > Department of = Computer Sciences
>>>>     > School of = Technology
>>>>     > Moulay Ismail = University
>>>>     > Meknes. = Morocco
>>>>    =  >
>>>>    =  >
>>>>
>>>>    =  _______________________________________________
>>>>=      its mailing list
>>>>    =  its@ietf.org = <mailto:its@ietf.org>
>>>>    =  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
>&g= t;>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> = --
>>>> John Kenney
>>>> Director and Sr. = Principal Researcher
>>>> Toyota InfoTech = Labs
>>>> 465 Bernardo Avenue
>>>> = Mountain View, CA 94043
>>>> Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: = 650-224-6644
>>> = _______________________________________________
>>> its = mailing list
>>> its@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
> =
>

_______________________________________________
its = mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its

-- =

John Kenney

Director and Sr. Principal = Researcher

Toyota InfoTech = Labs

465 Bernardo = Avenue

Mountain View, CA = 94043

Tel: 650-694-4160. = Mobile: = 650-224-6644

------=_NextPart_000_01AF_01D53F06.DE230B90-- From nobody Sat Jul 20 22:06:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C1D01200F5; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:06:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: its@ietf.org Message-ID: <156368561355.23992.9911127538539104372@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:06:53 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-11.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 05:06:54 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. Title : IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases Author : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor) Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-11.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2019-07-20 Abstract: This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP- based vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS). The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle- to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to- everything (V2X) communications. First, this document explains use cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking. Next, it makes a problem statement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. For each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based vehicular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions satisfying those requirements. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Jul 20 22:22:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86FD01200EF for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:22:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HK_NAME_FM_MR_MRS=1.499, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_HEX=0.1, URI_NOVOWEL=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k-6dAwWYoHHK for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B457812006A for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id u25so21975914wmc.4 for ; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:22:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0CgWA0MFyQsL/bV8LrCiIgp5fK5qgLCxTpVm7X4TlA0=; b=JM+0tFdYc1ZQ89437NeeWH/VT/tDtMf1fwoOCfI6k+8Kzr6ol2eSlhEVdeG4DVqF9B dQey+rP4lRBgkyf87TBUWsegfIoRG724SlP0hvNX3DuJO6JaeJHKzSH8KbsF7E3yyzVS 1kJHst76PGkAmttoekcevEICbm9iysEQZBTdTL6X6YvGgaN8HJiCcrNcgltffDsXa8tt SR/8UWyzMOS6Db8Y4owVYH83vlEQu+dxnO2ff6jlsY3Wpm5jmdG7gcbZwAjHasPIxnqk ZDZkCd8H77YRIlWaPfmbpogSNxSIU/CHmbV97nqTqWGp5sN5eFQ9oL7PGxzk6aEkkv/o ZAXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0CgWA0MFyQsL/bV8LrCiIgp5fK5qgLCxTpVm7X4TlA0=; b=sNNCslAKHf0uZrMPhfLRr6ay8lsGcQM6VDm0LPEVLycXF+62+NU+SKf5CSyz7qY8YU jsA1rqt7rRqke7GPXnLrdJGc6bVSMUKOBRsQfCI1W9Eoq210Uhy/Z4rhLVxe558FFGK2 Wf70TXb6A8nXK8v6bIlbdciMf+klyGyj5zSF9I6492fIrc6iQEoAivN1m0ntK3hYvKzn PnU2MBeMVzJ45QOt3ciE+WmBB8Oyoz8Gy5B3s47pkl61UxPJT8UAP2dPGYn0Hqk8mLKk AvyjEPPYYn1nQtELQLZK7o0ne58aETw88V3Yq9ahhyGrwCTY2qeqvp4ebDP0S/7vyJXK lhGA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAURPIWO6bxyC15YFpy+Mq51vxjo6PR+j2USve7hMs0vr+IEV7pi EqRSC4AxNtfCL1MG8UdnM7jDwYL1Gp+K7LLjULw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxwRmiRYihccYf+uMpWAQcJIeLUXvSu1d4hQ1GNQ1Kf5ND1GvmXMsbcVXOAM039q0Af/b3zrmfzRPaGUoeaz/o= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:2243:: with SMTP id a3mr54594840wmm.83.1563686548821; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:22:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155875810707.27384.10372786061867898561@ietfa.amsl.com> <62449a99-3289-555b-39ce-e56489f3b5a8@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 01:21:52 -0400 Message-ID: To: Charlie Perkins Cc: "its@ietf.org" , skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com, "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000485c62058e2a255c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 05:22:35 -0000 --000000000000485c62058e2a255c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Charlie, I have submitted the version -11 of the IPWAVE PS document, addressing all your comments and questions: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-11 Could you doublecheck whether my answers satisfy you or not to let our IPWAVE PS document move forward? Thanks. Best Regards, Paul On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 8:03 AM Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Charlie, > Here is the vision -11, reflecting all of your editorial comments and > questions along with > the revision letter. > The attached draft pdf is unofficial one generated from the xml file of > version -11, > which will be submitted on July 21, 2019. > > If you have further questions and comments, please let me know. > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:12 AM Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < > jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Charlie, >> Here is the revision based on your major comments: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-10 >> >> I attach the revision letter explaining how I answered your comments. >> If you have comments and questions on the revision, please let me know. >> >> Due to the time limitation, I could not address your editorial comments >> on -10 version. >> For your editorial comments, I will address them and submit -11 version >> before the IETF-105 IPWAVE session. >> >> Thanks. >> >> Best Regards, >> Paul >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM Charlie Perkins < >> charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> Hello Paul, >>> >>> I have reviewed the document. I think it still needs some improvements >>> as described below. >>> >>> - It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better >>> than simply a routing protocol between moving networks. >>> >>> - The discussions about DNS need better motivation. >>> >>> - I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirement= s >>> and latency bounds. The inclusion of numbers like 1 second, .5 second,= and >>> 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations. Given so= me >>> knowledge of DSRC range and typical speeds for motor vehicles, you shou= ld >>> be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic. >>> >>> - The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with >>> cross references to other parts of the document. >>> >>> - The "Changes" section should have detailed what was changed, instead >>> of just saying that resolutions were included for our comments. >>> >>> - I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global >>> prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs. I think this woul= d be >>> a bad idea. Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET. >>> >>> - In section 5.1, you might cite >>> draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses vari= ous >>> kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless medi= a. >>> >>> - In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge >>> into one network. An example is needed for this. >>> >>> - In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions shoul= d >>> be prevented by cooperation between good nodes. But no suggestion is m= ade >>> about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce th= e >>> likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, o= r be >>> compromised. Similarly, it is not suggested how to identify authorized >>> vehicles. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Charlie P. >>> >>> >>> On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong wrote: >>> >>> Charlie, >>> Thanks for your time. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Paul >>> >>> 2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:1= 0, Charlie Perkins =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 >>> =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>> >>>> Hello Paul, >>>> >>>> >>>> It's on my list to read tomorrow. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Charlie P. >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 4, 2019 4:36:26 AM >>>> *To:* Charlie Perkins >>>> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO; Russ Housley; >>>> Sri Gundavelli >>>> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>>> >>>> Hi Charlie, >>>> Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft? >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version >>>> or not. >>>> >>>> I believe that I addresses all your previous comments >>>> even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the >>>> problems for IPWAVE. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >>>> cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote: >>>> >>>> I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie reviews it to do my review. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Carlos >>>> >>>> On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < >>>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Charlie, >>>> Thanks a lot. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 10= :57, Charlie Perkins < >>>> charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>>> >>>> Hello Paul and all, >>>> >>>> >>>> I will attempt to review the draft later this week. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Charlie P. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong >>>> *Sent:* Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM >>>> *To:* CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO >>>> *Cc:* Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; >>>> Sri Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong >>>> *Subject:* Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>>> >>>> Hi Carlos, >>>> It seems Charlie is busy. >>>> I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft. >>>> >>>> Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the >>>> IETF-105 meeting? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12= :49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < >>>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>>> >>>> Sri, >>>> Okay. >>>> I will not change the text about ND. >>>> >>>> Let's wait for Charlie's response. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12= :44, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) < >>>> sgundave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>>> >>>> Hi Paul, >>>> >>>> Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can >>>> revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. >>>> Unfortunately, that=E2=80=99s the most controversial topic and we don= =E2=80=99t need to >>>> muddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optim= ize >>>> ND and lets leave it at that level. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Sri >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" >>>> Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM >>>> To: Sri Gundavelli , "charles.perkins@earthlink.ne= t" >>>> >>>> Cc: Russ Housley , CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO < >>>> cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" < >>>> Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >>>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>>> >>>> Hi Sri, >>>> I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the >>>> revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1. >>>> >>>> Charlie, >>>> Do you have any comments on the current version? >>>> >>>> To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> 2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12= :09, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) < >>>> sgundave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>>> >>>> Hi Paul, >>>> >>>> I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 version and the delta from =E2=80=9308= . >>>> >>>> The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of >>>> unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. Howe= ver, >>>> in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I though= t the >>>> goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, >>>> scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, 5.1.1= .1? >>>> >>>> >>>> Sri >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: its on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" >>>> >>>> Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM >>>> To: Charlie Perkins , Sri Gundavelli < >>>> sgundave@cisco.com> >>>> Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" < >>>> skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" < >>>> pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" , Russ Housley < >>>> housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" , CARLOS JESUS >>>> BERNARDOS CANO , "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" < >>>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: >>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.txt >>>> >>>> Hi Charlie and Sri, >>>> Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you >>>> are happy with the revision? >>>> >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>>> >>>> >>>> Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft. >>>> >>>> If you have some places to improve, please let me know. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> 2019=EB=85=84 5=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:= 29, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong < >>>> jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>>> >>>> Hi IPWAVE WG, >>>> I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on >>>> the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular >>>> networking, >>>> such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privac= y. >>>> >>>> For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem >>>> statement about >>>> the ND at 802.11-OCB. >>>> Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution >>>> in the draft. >>>> >>>> Carlos, >>>> Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forwar= d >>>> toward WGLC? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>>> directories. >>>> This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular >>>> Environments WG of the IETF. >>>> >>>> Title : IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments >>>> (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases >>>> Author : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor) >>>> Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09.tx= t >>>> Pages : 28 >>>> Date : 2019-05-24 >>>> >>>> Abstract: >>>> This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP- >>>> based vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems >>>> (ITS). The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle- >>>> to-vehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infrastructure (V2I), and vehicle-to- >>>> everything (V2X) communications. First, this document explains use >>>> cases using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking. Next, it makes a problem >>>> statement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such = as >>>> IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privac= y. >>>> For each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-bas= ed >>>> vehicular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions >>>> satisfying those requirements. >>>> >>>> >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networkin= g/ >>>> >>>> >>>> There are also htmlized versions available at: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09 >>>> >>>> >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-netw= orking-09 >>>> >>>> >>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networ= king-09 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>>> submission >>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> its mailing list >>>> its@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Software >>>> Sungkyunkwan University >>>> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >>>> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >>>> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D >>>> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >>>> Associate Professor >>>> Department of Software >>>> Sungkyunkwan University >>>> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >>>> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >>>> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D >> Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. >> Associate Professor >> Department of Software >> Sungkyunkwan University >> Office: +82-31-299-4957 >> Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu >> Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php >> >> > > > -- > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D > Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Software > Sungkyunkwan University > Office: +82-31-299-4957 > Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu > Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php > > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Software Sungkyunkwan University Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php --000000000000485c62058e2a255c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 8:03 AM Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <= jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wr= ote:
Hi Charlie,
Here is the vision -11, reflecting all of your editor= ial comments and questions along with
the revision letter.
<= div>The attached draft pdf is unofficial one generated from the xml file of= version -11,
which will be submitted on July 21, 2019.

If you have further questions and comments, please let me k= now.

Thanks.

Best Regards= ,
Paul


<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:12 AM Mr. Jae= hoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Charlie,
Here is the rev= ision based on your major comments:
=C2=A0
I attach the revision letter explaining how= I answered your comments.
If you have comments and questions on = the revision, please let me know.

Due to the time = limitation, I could not address your editorial comments on -10 version.
For your editorial comments, I will address them and submit -11 vers= ion=C2=A0
before the IETF-105 IPWAVE session.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul


On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:01 AM Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@ea= rthlink.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Hello Paul,

I have reviewed the document.=C2=A0 I think it still needs some improvements as described below.

- It is not at all clear to me why a multi-link subnet model is better than simply a routing protocol between moving networks.

- The discussions about DNS need better motivation.

- I had asked for a more detailed analysis about the timing requirements and latency bounds.=C2=A0 The inclusion of numbers like = 1 second, .5 second, and 500ms is not at all convincing, especially without citations.=C2=A0 Given some knowledge of DSRC range and typic= al speeds for motor vehicles, you should be able to get better numbers by some basic arithmetic.

- The Security Considerations needs to be significantly expanded, with cross references to other parts of the document.

- The "Changes" section should have detailed what was chan= ged, instead of just saying that resolutions were included for our comments.

- I am not sure whether or not you intended to have a specific global prefix range (e.g., 2001:DB8:) set aside for VANETs.=C2=A0 I think this would be a bad idea.=C2=A0 Any routable IPv6 address ought to be routable in a VANET.

- In section 5.1, you might cite draft-ietf-mboned-ieee802-mcast-problems, our draft that discusses various kinds of problems faced by multicast-based protocols over wireless media.

- In section 5.1.1, it is suggested that two separate VANETs can merge into one network.=C2=A0 An example is needed for this.

- In section 5.3, the discussion indicates that malicious actions should be prevented by cooperation between good nodes.=C2=A0 But no suggestion is made about how to distinguish good nodes from bad nodes, or how to reduce the likelihood that a good node might be misused by a malicious operator, or be compromised.=C2=A0 Similarly, = it is not suggested how to identify authorized vehicles.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 7/4/2019 9:32 PM, Mr. Jaehoon = Paul Jeong wrote:
=20
Charlie,
Thanks for your time.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 7=EC=9B=94 5=EC= =9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:10, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D= =B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul,


It's on my = list to read tomorrow.


Regards,
Charlie P.

Hi Charlie,
Did you have a chance to review our IPWAVE PS draft?
=C2=A0
Please let me know whether you are satisfied with the current version or not.

I believe that I addresses all your previous comments=C2=A0
even though the current version is a compact one focusing on the problems for IPWAVE.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 7:07 AM CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es> wrote:
I=E2=80=99ll wait until Charlie revie= ws it to do my review.

Thanks!

Carlos

On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 04:14, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com> wrote:
Charlie,
Thanks a lot.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=99=94) =EC=98=A4=EC= =A0=84 10:57, Charlie Perkins <charlie.perkins@futurewei.com<= /a>>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:

Hello Paul and all,


I will attempt to review the draft later this week.


Regards,
Charlie P.

From: Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jae= hoon.paul@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 6:55:25 PM
To: CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO Cc: Charles E. Perkins; Russ Housley; Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com; Sri Gundavelli; Jaehoon Paul Jeong
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-09= .txt
=C2=A0
Hi Carlos,
It seems Charlie is busy.
I believe I addressed Charlie's previous comments on the draft.

Could you review and give me yours comments for WGLC before the IETF-105 meeting?

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:49, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.p= aul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Sri,
Okay.
I will not change the text about ND.

Let's wait for Charlie's response.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D=BC (=EC=9B=94) = =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:44, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgu= ndave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
Hi Paul,

Ok! Any new text needs to go through the WG review process. If you can revert ND related multi-hop text and references that will be good. Unfortunately, that=E2=80= =99s the most controversial topic and we don=E2=80=99t need to mu= ddle the waters bringing that discussion into this. We need to optimize ND and lets leave it at that level.



Thanks
Sri



From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:40 PM
To: Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>, "charles.perkins@earthlink.net" <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Cc: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com" <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking-09.txt

Hi Sri,
I will remove the solution text and RFC 8505 reference for ND in the revision by focusing on the problem in Section 5.1 and 5.1.1.

Charl= ie,
Do you have any comments on the current version?

To make this draft go forward, we need your review and comments.

Thank= s.

Best Regards,
Paul<= /div>

2019=EB=85=84 6=EC=9B=94 24=EC=9D= =BC (=EC=9B=94) =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 12:09, Sri Gundavelli (sgundave) <sgundave@cisco.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1= :
Hi Paul,

I have reviewed the =E2=80=9309 versi= on and the delta from =E2=80=9308.=

The spec has surely improved and you have now eliminated bunch of unnecessary text. This is good and thanks for those improvements. However, in ND section, I see lot of new text and RFC 8505 references. I thought the goal here was to address the comments. Why would we add next text, scenarios and spec references at this stage? Specifically, 5.1, =C2=A05.1.1.1?=C2= =A0


Sri





=C2=A0


From: its <its-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" <<= a href=3D"mailto:jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" targe= t=3D"_blank">jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:50 PM
To: Charlie Perkins <Charlie.Perkins@huawei.com>, Sri Gundavelli <sgundave@cisco.com>
Cc: "skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com" <skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "its@ietf.org" <its@ietf.org>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tom.Oh@rit.edu" <Tom.Oh@rit.edu>, CARLOS JESUS BERNARDOS CANO <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>, "jaehoon.paul@gmail.com" <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt

Hi Charlie and Sri,
Could you review the revised draft for IPWAVE PS and confirm that you are happy with the revision?


Your confirmation can allow for the next step of our PS draft.

If you have some places to improve, please let me know.

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Paul

2019=EB=85=84 5= =EC=9B=94 25=EC=9D=BC (=ED=86=A0) =EC= =98=A4=ED=9B=84 1:29, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong <jaehoon.paul@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC= =84=B1:
= Hi IPWAVE WG,
I have submitted the revision of our IPWAVE PS draft:
=C2=A0
According to the request of Sri and Russ, this version is focused on=C2=A0<= /div>
the problem statement about three key aspects of IP-based vehicular networking,
such as Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy.

For the Neighbor Discovery, I used Pascal's text about the problem statement about
the ND at 802.11-OCB.=C2=A0=
Thanks for Pascal's contribution, and I acknowledged his contribution in the draft.

Carlos,
Could you review this version and give me your comments to move forward toward WGLC?

Thanks.

Paul

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 1:22 PM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments (IPWAVE): Problem Statement and Use Cases
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Jaehoon Paul Jeong (editor)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ietf-ipwave= -vehicular-networking-09.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 28
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 2019-05-24

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document discusses the problem statement and use cases of IP-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0base= d vehicular networking for Intelligent Transportation Systems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(ITS= ).=C2=A0 The main scenarios of vehicular communications are vehicle-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to-v= ehicle (V2V), vehicle-to-infras= tructure (V2I), and vehicle-to-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ever= ything (V2X) communications.= =C2=A0 First, this document explains use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0case= s using V2V, V2I, and V2X networking.=C2=A0 Next, it makes a problem
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stat= ement about key aspects in IP-based vehicular networking, such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv6 Neighbor Discovery, Mobility Management, and Security & Privacy. =C2=A0 =C2=A0For = each key aspect, this document specifies requirements in IP-based
=C2=A0 =C2=A0vehi= cular networking, and suggests the direction of solutions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sati= sfying those requirements.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-n= etworking/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networ= king-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicu= lar-networking-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ipwave-vehicula= r-networking-09


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
--
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse any brevity or typing errors.


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0<= a href=3D"mailto:pauljeong@skku.edu" style=3D"font-size:12.8px" rel=3D"nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Profe= ssor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31= -299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Per= sonal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
<= /div>


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr= . Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Softw= are
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com= ,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://i= otlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php


--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.= D.
Associate Professor
Department of Software
Sungkyunkwan Univers= ity
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeon= g@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaeho= on-jeong.php
--000000000000485c62058e2a255c-- From nobody Sun Jul 21 06:28:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B309120020; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 06:28:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: its@ietf.org Message-ID: <156371570720.20522.14237952099531874111@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 06:28:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:28:27 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Basic Support for IPv6 over IEEE Std 802.11 Networks Operating Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set (IPv6-over-80211-OCB) Authors : Nabil Benamar Jerome Haerri Jong-Hyouk Lee Thierry Ernst Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2019-07-21 Abstract: This document provides methods and settings, and describes limitations, for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link. This support does only require minimal changes to existing stacks. Optimizations and usage of IPv6 over more complex scenarios is not covered in this specification and is subject of future work. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jul 21 13:34:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3423512014A; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIloCGeby4Oq; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:34:09 -0700 (PDT) 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id x6LKY3Fl026746; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 16:34:03 -0400 Received: from MARCHAND.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.251]) by CASSINA.ad.sei.cmu.edu ([10.64.28.249]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 16:34:03 -0400 From: Roman Danyliw To: Nabil Benamar CC: IESG , "draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org" , Carlos Bernardos , "ipwave-chairs@ietf.org" , "its@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHVNpF/33hAh0jHH02D3kgWd/IptqbD/WyAgAItfLCAAIiZAIAO4+Iw Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 20:34:02 +0000 Message-ID: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33DE6E3@marchand> References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33CE293@marchand> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.64.22.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33DE6E3marchand_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 20:34:13 -0000 --_000_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33DE6E3marchand_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTmFiaWwhDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIC01MCB1cGRhdGUuICBTZWUgYmVsb3cgZm9yIHRo ZSBkZXRhaWxzLiAgVGhlIHF1aWNrIHN1bW1hcnkgaXMgdGhhdCBkaXNjdXNzIGl0ZW1zICMxLTMg YXJlIGFkZHJlc3NlZCBpbiAtNTAuICBJIGhhdmVu4oCZdCBzZWVuIGFuIHJlc3BvbnNlIG9uIGRp c2N1c3MgIzQuDQoNClJvbWFuDQoNCkZyb206IE5hYmlsIEJlbmFtYXIgW21haWx0bzpuLmJlbmFt 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from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b5xZlZlBWy-P for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05F7A120191 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6M8TKgk033682 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:29:20 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 99B8620345D for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:29:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAB62016A1 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:29:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6M8TKWK021295 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:29:20 +0200 To: "its@ietf.org" References: <156371570720.20522.14237952099531874111@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <48d5116b-ee42-234c-e06f-05b65bcb566e@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:29:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <156371570720.20522.14237952099531874111@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:29:26 -0000 thanks for new version. Consistency check: section 4.2 says "SHOULD use a 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user priority)", but section G.1 shows an 802.11 Data Header, not a 802.11 QoS Data header. Where should the priority be filled in? (802.11 Data headers dont have priority fields, the QoS Data headers do). Alex Le 21/07/2019 à 15:28, internet-drafts@ietf.org a écrit : > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. > > Title : Basic Support for IPv6 over IEEE Std 802.11 Networks Operating Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set (IPv6-over-80211-OCB) > Authors : Nabil Benamar > Jerome Haerri > Jong-Hyouk Lee > Thierry Ernst > Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50.txt > Pages : 32 > Date : 2019-07-21 > > Abstract: > This document provides methods and settings, and describes > limitations, for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of > one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link. This support does > only require minimal changes to existing stacks. Optimizations and > usage of IPv6 over more complex scenarios is not covered in this > specification and is subject of future work. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Mon Jul 22 01:31:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41C4120191 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ItSnAliENLCN for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5A021201A0 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6M8V9eG040025 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:31:09 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B413C2016A1 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:31:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3B8201372 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:31:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6M8V93U022611 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:31:09 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156270262382.15819.8454309099280995022.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33CE293@marchand> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33DE6E3@marchand> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <5270f491-06bd-e305-3d83-cc9e70f2b38b@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:31:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B33DE6E3@marchand> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:31:14 -0000 Le 21/07/2019 à 22:34, Roman Danyliw a écrit : > Hi Nabil! > > Thanks for the -50 update.  See below for the details.  The quick > summary is that discuss items #1-3 are addressed in -50.  I haven’t seen > an response on discuss #4. Roman Danyliw wrote recently: > ** What specific ETSI protocols are being recommended from > [ETSI-sec-archi]? I do not know for sure myself. One would ask Jérôme Härri. I looked myself at the public document referred (ETSI TS 102 940 V1.2.1 (2016-11)). I could find a recommendation to generate MAC address: "shall be derived from the identifier provided by the Security Entity in the ID change notification". (the "ID Change Notification" seems to be an application layer message). From my side, I do not agree with this method to generate more obfuscated MAC addresses. I have some ideas how to generate more obfuscated MAC addresses, but certainly not in the ETSI way. > ** What is meant by the drivers’ identity in this case? There is activity at Gemalto now Thales about e-Driver's License. Supposedly that is an electronic format of a driver's license that is more accessible. I think that driver's license in some countries have no electronic equivalent at this time. The trials of electronic Driver's License happened mostly in America, and were probably totally absent in Europe. That is all I know. > What is the pseudonym scheme is being used to protect it or what > requirements are being set for it? I do not know myself. > ** What are the specific challenges of concern around > pseudo-anonymization approaches to which an allusion is made? > > ** Who is the trusted third parted needed? There is no trusted third party in the automotive networks. There are a few efforts to build national Certificate Authorities, European automotive PKIs, and similar. Most are backed by trials. But there is no universally agreed CA (like is e.g. Verisign in the Internet world). They are all expensive to access, and some times even impossible. What is needed is that the automotive networks use the CAs from Internet. What is needed is that the automotive networks use the CAs from Internet. Alex From nobody Mon Jul 22 01:33:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D14E1201A0 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:33:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 715qbVtg__28 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0625120199 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6M8X8wB040714 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:33:08 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 400BA201E2A for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:33:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366C8201372 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:33:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6M8X8LF023805 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:33:08 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <156371570720.20522.14237952099531874111@ietfa.amsl.com> <48d5116b-ee42-234c-e06f-05b65bcb566e@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:33:08 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <48d5116b-ee42-234c-e06f-05b65bcb566e@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:33:12 -0000 My suggestion is not to correct section G.2 that shows captured packets. Rather, my suggestion is to come up with a packet capture of IPv6-over-OCB that uses QoS Data headers - that is the implementation aspect. Alex Le 22/07/2019 à 10:29, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > thanks for new version. > > Consistency check: section 4.2 says "SHOULD use a 'priority' value of 1 > (QoS with a 'Background' user priority)", but section G.1 shows an > 802.11 Data Header, not a 802.11 QoS Data header. > > Where should the priority be filled in? > > (802.11 Data headers dont have priority fields, the QoS Data headers do). > > Alex > > Le 21/07/2019 à 15:28, internet-drafts@ietf.org a écrit : >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular >> Environments WG of the IETF. >> >>          Title           : Basic Support for IPv6 over IEEE Std 802.11 >> Networks Operating Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set >> (IPv6-over-80211-OCB) >>          Authors         : Nabil Benamar >>                            Jerome Haerri >>                            Jong-Hyouk Lee >>                            Thierry Ernst >>     Filename        : draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50.txt >>     Pages           : 32 >>     Date            : 2019-07-21 >> >> Abstract: >>     This document provides methods and settings, and describes >>     limitations, for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes in range of >>     one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link.  This support does >>     only require minimal changes to existing stacks.  Optimizations and >>     usage of IPv6 over more complex scenarios is not covered in this >>     specification and is subject of future work. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 >> >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-50 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its From nobody Mon Jul 22 05:33:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16DEB120059 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:33:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PeVHASJeIjwJ for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E53212001A for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MCX3hG027040 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:33:03 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D74E6205E13 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:33:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4855203445 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:33:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MCX3Pc001146 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:33:03 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <4c4f802d21af4611b199879fd05c6a93@boeing.com> <1699126310.8779421.1547048876042@mail.yahoo.com> <6f42ebaae6a841d3a60f94ece5a960c4@boeing.com> <58155d31b244450e8fbff6dd4efec8d4@boeing.com> <1623494843.8840913.1547056026075@mail.yahoo.com> <902976295.8882995.1547058766671@mail.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <3a57751c-ebaf-cebb-9fd9-44c59e0d39e4@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:33:03 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <902976295.8882995.1547058766671@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Unmanned Air System (UAS) applications in ipwave X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:33:07 -0000 is the startup still in stealth mode? Le 09/01/2019 à 19:32, Nalini J Elkins a écrit : > The startup in my area is operating in stealth mode so From nobody Mon Jul 22 05:34:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49F4120043 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iAuitHsgvMKU for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20A5A12001A for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MCYkkd032991 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:34:46 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D344205EA9 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:34:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77308205EA8 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:34:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MCYkhL001988 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:34:46 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: <4c4f802d21af4611b199879fd05c6a93@boeing.com> <1699126310.8779421.1547048876042@mail.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <69b98813-d085-6531-a114-340d6bbf2070@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:34:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1699126310.8779421.1547048876042@mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Unmanned Air System (UAS) applications in ipwave X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:34:51 -0000 Le 09/01/2019 à 16:47, Nalini J Elkins a écrit : > Fred, > > >> With the advent of applications such as air taxis and personal air vehicles, UAS will soon “share the road” with the legacy terrestrial vehicle deployment. > > This is a very interesting area. I wanted to share information about two AirTaxi implementations. > > In India, there is active work on AirTaxi at IIT Kanpur. You may be interested in the following article: "IIT-Kanpur, VTOL Aviation Sign $2.2 Mn MoU To Develop Flying Taxi Prototype" > > https://inc42.com/buzz/iit-kanpur-vtol-aviation-sign-mou-to-develop-flying-taxi-prototype/ > > For any of you who know the incredible traffic problems in India, any solution would be a blessing! > > In the Monterey Bay area in California (my local community), there is a startup working on AirTaxi. You may be interested in the article: An ambitious flying taxi startup is setting up shop at the Marina Municipal Airport" > > http://www.montereycountyweekly.com/news/local_news/an-ambitious-flying-taxi-startup-is-setting-up-shop-at/article_9f1a6616-abe8-11e8-b572-db5fa095cca5.html When I try to access this page it says: > > 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons > > We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact frontdesk@mcweekly.com or call 831-394-5656. It's the first time I see such kind of message and I hope to not be blocked again on the Internet like this. Alex > > > Thanks, > > Nalini Elkins > CEO and Founder > Inside Products, Inc. > www.insidethestack.com > (831) 659-8360 > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Templin (US), Fred L" > To: "its@ietf.org" > Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 7:29 AM > Subject: [ipwave] Unmanned Air System (UAS) applications in ipwave > > > > Hello, > > > Under FAA program DTFAWA-15-D-00030 and NASA program NNA16BD84C, we > > have developed communications architectures for both manned and unmanned > > aviation. Unmanned Air Systems (UAS) in particular present an interesting challenge, > > as there will be vast numbers operating in worldwide controlled and uncontrolled > > air spaces in the coming years. With the advent of applications such as air taxis and > > personal air vehicles, UAS will soon “share the road” with the legacy terrestrial > > vehicle deployment. As such, technologies such as 4G/5G, C-V2X and DSRC will > > be used by these systems in the same fashion as has been discussed in ipwave. > > > Under the FAA and NASA programs, two IETF works have been developed and > > tailored to the mobile networking use case. ‘draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp’ provides > > a scalable routing system based on BGP for tracking IPv6 prefixes associated with > > mobile nodes such as terrestrial and air vehicles. ‘draft-templin-intarea-6706bis’ > > presents the AERO mobile routing service for localized mobility and route > > optimization at the vehicular level. Together, these technologies provide a > > comprehensive solution for both aeronautical and terrestrial mobile networking. > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtgwg-atn-bgp/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-intarea-6706bis/ > > > We would like to explore synergies with the work in progress in ipwave. We > > believe the coming UAS applications will need to function in harmony with > > terrestrial vehicles, so we perceive a fit with this working group’s activities. > > In addition to the two IETF drafts, see below for a list of papers which have > > been published in various IEEE forums. Please post comments to the list. > > > Thanks – Fred > > > Integrated Communications, Navigation and Surveillance (ICNS) 2017: > > ***************************************************** > > “Considerations for an integrated UAS CNS architecture” > > “Requirements for an integrated UAS CNS architecture” > > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/mostRecentIssue.jsp?filter=issueId EQ "8011878"&refinements=Author:Fred L. Templin&pageNumber=1&resultAction=REFINE > > > IEEE Aerospace 2018: > > **************** > > “Reliable and secure surveillance, communications and navigation (RSCAN) for Unmanned Air Systems (UAS) > > in controlled airspace” > > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/mostRecentIssue.jsp?filter=issueId EQ "8396361"&refinements=Author:Denise S. Ponchak&pageNumber=1&resultAction=REFINE > > > Integrated Communications, Navigation and Surveillance (ICNS) 2018: > > ***************************************************** > > “UAS CNS architectures for uncontrolled airspace” > > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/mostRecentIssue.jsp?filter=issueId EQ "8384823"&refinements=Author:Denise Ponchak&pageNumber=1&resultAction=REFINE > > > Digital Avionics Systems Conference (DASC) 2018: > > ************************************* > > “An Implementation Analysis of Communications, Navigation, and Surveillance (CNS) > > Technologies for Unmanned Air Systems (UAS)” > > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/mostRecentIssue.jsp?filter=issueId EQ "8569218"&refinements=Author:Denise S. Ponchak&pageNumber=1&resultAction=REFINE > > > IEEE Aerospace 2019: > > **************** > > " Advancing the Standards for Unmanned Air System Communications, Navigation and Surveillance" > > To be presented 3/3/2019 > > > _______________________________________________ > > its mailing list > > its@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Mon Jul 22 05:42:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 596011202A9 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:42:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=e-dco-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 150E4RA0291w for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BE20120295 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id z28so37525196ljn.4 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:42:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=e-dco-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Nze3Gelo3aX8e+EHAAi8wWlsXsYx8N5+4YCt0mLpLU4=; b=s/6c0h9EMG8ThsvhTUBvDu2BItN1A/Bck1pZASbqK7rL3Vtv3OQiJyV7RNLQnkMk7R i7KHwabgnVlKhbSdjbnElJK65bepemgCs+emP4BTRag75r2WwIFAsRyjGeKY5TvieF5z VjWkDDEqYTCcwlfHJLw4o5NALzlZOijii2GqDLkI/hjqkgiqh/jmTelmKu3Ff7vIScSn /LqkGn9llOfijQPLp541zN4stmPZvrLTsWLysok5kbWAGxo4X3grUWF+f2NOBqIc5ESf TGg6Coqk+Pl6qpHWP8Q3ORelirHvc+oYK/mn1r8ua9UnuTB4jWnhHYNsFUmvL2k4v/mf wuTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nze3Gelo3aX8e+EHAAi8wWlsXsYx8N5+4YCt0mLpLU4=; b=YWd63WL4gLiE+25RKr27bv6eVyS16dD0SRstP5Qt7cHcgqvxWzlXHsf8sv6lwg8bKW r4ZyRQhyaNCTTZNLtWTNZ3ZMMyaFt7WHAtsnWD6rFTXsBTdLePu0+3MwlQrGhx8d8bFc x1HLBZKuz+Kn74KnB8mnaLZgEJ46AvWuhTbaoSMQ5vNNkdvrNwKemDBYAgmZj6QZhWgW slWXoeGlkL9dO6P5Lx3rLz/9IrWRCSb15a3c2Ojhy8iwPA0cjxxTdQMJsHWtz/+WtBjh ZgHRfmSsBqh0AJoGwf6E4Qx67O1qv7HBsDRUTYOb4J5YdHCTYX0sS76rhupy4PsyqhaI t/Rg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUWp+OUrQqZJUNat2RSy+WnLoIjn5i8MGkSSFjeFrxcCOF5MwR4 uGkcDKnRuT2eJtiVRfMDNrDlKxmK7XLdPWKaW0w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz428iVpk0ciAzRR6D6wKck5+OW6T8RHU/retbS7zucCxpNz4iPJU+vYWHPhFL3DWCa4b4qlkKwm2+Cs4/EciM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6c14:: with SMTP id h20mr36207663ljc.38.1563799332298; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:42:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4c4f802d21af4611b199879fd05c6a93@boeing.com> <1699126310.8779421.1547048876042@mail.yahoo.com> <6f42ebaae6a841d3a60f94ece5a960c4@boeing.com> <58155d31b244450e8fbff6dd4efec8d4@boeing.com> <1623494843.8840913.1547056026075@mail.yahoo.com> <902976295.8882995.1547058766671@mail.yahoo.com> <3a57751c-ebaf-cebb-9fd9-44c59e0d39e4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3a57751c-ebaf-cebb-9fd9-44c59e0d39e4@gmail.com> From: nalini elkins Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:42:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: its@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3b276058e44674f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] Unmanned Air System (UAS) applications in ipwave X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:42:17 -0000 --000000000000b3b276058e44674f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alexandre, >>Le 09/01/2019 =C3=A0 19:32, Nalini J Elkins a =C3=A9crit : >> The startup in my area is operating in stealth mode so >is the startup still in stealth mode? Let me find out what their status is. Nalini On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 8:33 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > is the startup still in stealth mode? > > Le 09/01/2019 =C3=A0 19:32, Nalini J Elkins a =C3=A9crit : > > The startup in my area is operating in stealth mode so > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --=20 Thanks, Nalini Elkins President Enterprise Data Center Operators www.e-dco.com --000000000000b3b276058e44674f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alexandre,

>>Le 09/01/2019 =C3=A0 19:32, Nal= ini J Elkins a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>> The startup in my area is oper= ating in stealth mode so

>is the startup still in= stealth mode?

Let me find out what their stat= us is.

Nalini


=
On Mon, Ju= l 22, 2019 at 8:33 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
is the startup still in steal= th mode?

Le 09/01/2019 =C3=A0 19:32, Nalini J Elkins a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> The startup in my area is operating in stealth mode so

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its


--
Thanks,
Nalini = Elkins
President
Enterprise Data Center Operators

--000000000000b3b276058e44674f-- From nobody Mon Jul 22 05:45:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D0812011D; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cbcOzwwrh7A0; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC07C120291; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 05:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MCjBsx030398; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:45:11 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DC9D205D2F; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:45:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55649205D2E; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:45:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MCjBdd008193; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:45:11 +0200 To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= , "'Russ Housley'" Cc: "'Nabil Benamar'" , "'Mirja Kuehlewind'" , "'IESG'" , "'its'" References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> <017a01d53ef2$1c5c5ac0$55151040$@eurecom.fr> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:45:11 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <017a01d53ef2$1c5c5ac0$55151040$@eurecom.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:45:19 -0000 Le 20/07/2019 à 13:56, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > Dear Alex, All, > > I guess that on this aspect, we will need to agree that we disagree :-) > > As accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum (so far) is still restricted by using > the ETSI stack, and as the ETSI stack uses QoS mapping to the QoSheaders > (the DCC and media-dependant Geonet specifications), then QoSheader are > required to access the ITS-G5 spectrum in EU...I shall also mention > (again..) that at that stage, accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum with 'pure' > IP over OCB is not allowed for _commercial usage_, as for this to > happen, two major aspects must be enforced: > > 1) a security framework is required > > 2) a mechanism to enforce IP-over-OCB to respect the duty cycle > > Both of these are not available so far for IP-over-OCB…but I am not sure > (and I guess other might have different perspective on this, in order to > make this draft move on), is that such restrictions are ‘spectrum’ > specific…, which is outside the scope of the IETF (as I understand > it)…so, I would not see such lack of specification blocking the current > draft, considering the fact that it includes a mention that > regional/national restrictions could apply, which would need an > additional specifications (at a later stage…). > > So, to my perspective, it is not what is 'available' but what is > 'required'…and this is pretty clear (and came straight from the ETSI ITS > chairs...).. > > Yet, I also think that from a global perspective, IP-over-OCB should not > enforce using QoSHeaders, considering > > 1) IP would provide the required priorization of channel access > > 2) the draft would indicate that this possibility is subject to > national/regional regulations that could say it differently. > > And one last thing: if you access ITS-G5 with nonQoSheader and other > stations have QoS headers, then you will systematically loose !! That is > just due to the fact that nonQoSheaders can access the channel only > after an IDLE DIFS time...while nonQoSheader uses IDLE AIFS times, which > for 3 queues out of 4 are shorter than the DIFS...(not mentioning the > CW, which is also significantly shorter) So, I would say that using > nonQoSHeader will lead to performance drop when competing with other > ITS-G5/DSRC traffic on a same channel...(as most ITS-G5/DSRC traffic is > broadcast, their CW will never increase (while yours might) and always > be smaller than your NonQoSHeader profile). > > My two cents, > > > BR, > > Jérôme Jérôme, You express very well the points of view of the SDOs that make requirements. I tend to agree with them, and as such, with you. I have no doubt that these requirements are made for the best of all of us as road users, and for the best of interoperability of communication systems. Alex > > -----Original Message----- > From: its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Petrescu > Sent: Tuesday 16 July 2019 21:53 > To: Russ Housley > Cc: Nabil Benamar; Mirja Kuehlewind; IESG; its > Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja Kühlewind's Discuss on > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > Russ, > > Sorry if the open-vs-closed text adds no clarity, but I do not know how > > to express it better. > > I think the special-purpose frequency allocation for 802.11-OCB does not > > impose QoS Data headers, even though it does tell that range is for > > safety applications for ITS.  I may be wrong though. > > Finally, as far as I know, there are no IPv6-over-OCB implementations > > with QoS Data headers, even if there are many implementations of CAM > > and BSM over 802.11-OCB with such headers.  But I will be happy to stand > > corrected if this were the case: is there an implementation of > > IPv6-over-OCB with QoS Data headers? > > Alex > > Le 16/07/2019 à 18:56, Russ Housley a écrit : > > > Alex: > > > > > > I am very uncomfortable with your proposed text.  IEEE 802.11-OCB > > > uses special-purpose frequency allocation.  I think the text about > > > open vs. closed systems is going to add confusion, not clarity. > > > > > > Russ > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> Russ, > > >> > > >> Le 15/07/2019 à 16:38, Russ Housley a écrit : > > >>> Alex: Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the > > >>> values used for the QoS bits. What would you like to see instead > > >>>  of the second MUST? Russ > > >> > > >> I would like to see something like this: > > >> > > >> OLD: > > >>> IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data > > >>> frames whose format is specified in IEEE 802.11 spec > > >>> [IEEE-802.11-2016]. The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are > > >>> immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and > > >>> an 802.11 header.  In the LLC header, and in accordance with the > > >>> EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the > > >>> value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6).  The > > >>> mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of > > >>> 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user > > >>> priority. > > >> > > >> NEW: > > >>> The IPv6 packets transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately > > >>> preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 > > >>> header.  In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType > > >>>  Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the > > >>>  Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). In open systems, the > > >>> 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted over 802.11-OCB > > >>> media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. In such systems, receivers > > >>> of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST understand and fully parse IP > > >>> packets preceded by 802.11 Data headers.  Receivers SHOULD NOT > > >>> drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data headers. In closed > > >>> systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted > > >>> over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an 802.11 QoS Data header.  In > > >>> such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST > > >>> understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data > > >>> headers.  In such systems, it is required that the mapping to the > > >>> 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which > > >>> specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. The > > >>> frame format of 802.11 Data headers and QoS Data headers is > > >>> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec [IEEE-802.11-2016]. > > >> > > >> Alex > > >> > > >>>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Le 13/07/2019 à 04:53, Russ Housley a écrit : > > >>>>> Alex: I did not add or remove any MUST statements.  I only > > >>>>> added a phrase of rationale. > > >>>> > > >>>> I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase > > >>>> of rationale was added. > > >>>> > > >>>> The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST.  It is > > >>>> logical. > > >>>> > > >>>> I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. > > >>>> > > >>>> (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the > > >>>> MUST.  I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and > > >>>>  criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS > > >>>> priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale > > >>>> within a limited bandwidth.) > > >>>> > > >>>> (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks > > >>>>  at 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km > > >>>> measured.  The number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of > > >>>> that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not > > >>>> thousands.  Within these dimensions, criticality and > > >>>> time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally.  An increase > > >>>> in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be > > >>>> even more sufficient) > > >>>> > > >>>> (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety > > >>>> can be realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS > > >>>> priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to > > >>>> perform and would overcome QoS priorities.) > > >>>> > > >>>> Alex > > >>>> > > >>>>> Russ > > >>>>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> hats and freedoms are valuable. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I disagree with the second MUST.  I will write a draft > > >>>>>> IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Alex > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Le 11/07/2019 à 17:51, Russ Housley a écrit : > > >>>>>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit > > >>>>>>>  of rationale be provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on > > >>>>>>>  802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link > > >>>>>>> Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header.  In the LLC > > >>>>>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol > > >>>>>>> Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the > > >>>>>>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6).  The mapping to > > >>>>>>>  the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1 > > >>>>>>>  (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving > > >>>>>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and > > >>>>>>> time-sensitive traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Hi All: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, > > >>>>>>>> it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will > > >>>>>>>> typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP > > >>>>>>>> safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC > > >>>>>>>> regulations require that such safety communications > > >>>>>>>> have access priority over other communications [47 CFR > > >>>>>>>>  § 90.377(d)] .  I would be cautious about removing the > > >>>>>>>>  current language unless you are convinced that doing > > >>>>>>>> so will not adversely affect non-IP safety > > >>>>>>>> communications. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Best Regards, John > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Mirja > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and > > >>>>>>>>> different views > > >>>>>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove > > >>>>>>>> this text to avoid confusion. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> Hi Nabil, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy > > >>>>>>>>> mainly advised > > >>>>>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question > > >>>>>>>>  is rather _if_ that is needed and if it is really > > >>>>>>>> appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further explain > > >>>>>>>> why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Mirja > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> You raised a very important point that was > > >>>>>>>>>> discussed > > >>>>>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 > > >>>>>>>> members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a > > >>>>>>>> review to help us clarify this point. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Here is what we got from them: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> .  Suggest to simply state that the data is > > >>>>>>>>>> transmitted with > > >>>>>>>> “User Priority” of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and > > >>>>>>>> leave the internal details of how this is accomplished > > >>>>>>>> to the 802.11 specification. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple > > >>>>>>>>>> integer (not > > >>>>>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority > > >>>>>>>>  to TID header value is another 802.11 detail, best > > >>>>>>>> left to the 802.11 specification.  For example: in the > > >>>>>>>>  802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be > > >>>>>>>> 4 bits in the header.  The use of these 4 bits to carry > > >>>>>>>> the User Priority information is an internal > > >>>>>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to > > >>>>>>>> change.. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE > > >>>>>>>>>>  Std > > >>>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.  This clause intentionally > > >>>>>>>> abstracts the exact details of 802..11’s internal > > >>>>>>>> operation, while describing specifically the behavior > > >>>>>>>> required by the user.  For example, the following > > >>>>>>>> text: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> “In the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype > > >>>>>>>>>> sub-field in > > >>>>>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS > > >>>>>>>> Data'); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) > > >>>>>>>> sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header > > >>>>>>>> MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.  User Priority > > >>>>>>>> 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').” > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> could be replaced by: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> “The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > >>>>>>>>>>  ‘priority’ > > >>>>>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > >>>>>>>> “Background” user priority.” > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja Kühlewind via > > >>>>>>>>>>  Datatracker > > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot > > >>>>>>>>>> position for > > >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line > > >>>>>>>>>> intact and reply > > >>>>>>>> to all > > >>>>>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. > > >>>>>>>>>> (Feel free to > > >>>>>>>> cut this > > >>>>>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Please refer to > > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, > > >>>>>>>>>> can be found > > >>>>>>>> here: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> DISCUSS: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was > > >>>>>>>>>> also commented > > >>>>>>>> in the TSV-ART > > >>>>>>>>>> review (Thanks Jörg!): > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service > > >>>>>>>>>> MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies > > >>>>>>>>>> the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority." > > >>>>>>>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I > > >>>>>>>>>> assume the > > >>>>>>>> assumption here > > >>>>>>>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data > > >>>>>>>>>> that is less > > >>>>>>>> important than > > >>>>>>>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic > > >>>>>>>>>> mapping > > >>>>>>>> document and should > > >>>>>>>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or > > >>>>>>>>>>  at least it > > >>>>>>>> would need to be > > >>>>>>>>>> spelled out). > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> COMMENT: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all > > >>>>>>>>>>  text that > > >>>>>>>> was somehow deemed > > >>>>>>>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document > > >>>>>>>>>>  got stuffed > > >>>>>>>> into the > > >>>>>>>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really > > >>>>>>>>>> not needed > > >>>>>>>> in this document > > >>>>>>>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor > > >>>>>>>>>> time, > > >>>>>>>> especially as they seem to > > >>>>>>>>>> have received less review and therefore have more > > >>>>>>>>>> nits. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A  A future > > >>>>>>>>>> improvement/in OCB > > >>>>>>>> mode. A future > > >>>>>>>>>> improvement/ > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of > > >>>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay > > >>>>>>>>>> Ismail University Meknes. Morocco > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Best Regards > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of > > >>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail > > >>>>>>>>>  University Meknes. Morocco > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its > > >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org > > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -- John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher > > >>>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, > > >>>>>>>> CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its > > >>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org > > >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing > > >>>> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ its mailing list > > >> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > its mailing list > > its@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Mon Jul 22 06:04:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E33C120116; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2KRwZzK1dUDH; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8C3412001A; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MD3lk9042132; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:03:47 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3634A200C43; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2F3205ED9; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:03:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6MD3kui019430; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:03:47 +0200 To: =?UTF-8?B?SsOpcsO0bWUgSMOkcnJp?= , "'Russ Housley'" Cc: "'Nabil Benamar'" , "'Mirja Kuehlewind'" , "'IESG'" , "'its'" References: <156269059867.15866.17764812378863873209.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4FA280F6-FD9F-4DBA-991B-D0A3033FB124@kuehlewind.net> <61138CEA-2D49-48C3-846E-D93DB17DDB27@kuehlewind.net> <2E61E2A9-10C4-4C7B-B738-EFC450D96EBF@vigilsec.com> <62622321-7E03-4293-BA19-7F5221900813@vigilsec.com> <141d38d8-4374-faf2-9895-99e1e2f699c5@gmail.com> <017a01d53ef2$1c5c5ac0$55151040$@eurecom.fr> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <9821c19a-ab89-1734-1900-267500a581ad@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:03:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <017a01d53ef2$1c5c5ac0$55151040$@eurecom.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-iet?= =?utf-8?q?f-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT?= =?utf-8?q?=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:03:53 -0000 Jérôme, Here are some additional thoughts... Le 20/07/2019 à 13:56, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > Dear Alex, All, > > I guess that on this aspect, we will need to agree that we disagree :-) > > As accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum (so far) is still restricted by using > the ETSI stack, and as the ETSI stack uses QoS mapping to the QoSheaders > (the DCC and media-dependant Geonet specifications), then QoSheader are > required to access the ITS-G5 spectrum in EU...I shall also mention > (again..) that at that stage, accessing the ITS-G5 spectrum with 'pure' > IP over OCB is not allowed for _commercial usage_, as for this to > happen, two major aspects must be enforced: > > 1) a security framework is required The security framework may indeed be required. But is it feasible? Many of dployed RSUs I have been listening to dont implement it. Only a minority does (one or two out of 20). There are many CAMs, DENMs and SPAT-EMs on the road that are unsecured. > 2) a mechanism to enforce IP-over-OCB to respect the duty cycle One can try to implement QoS Data headers with IP. And then, one should prove somehow that the QoS Data headers for IP do bring in some benefit compared to just Data headers. I think there is no implementation and no preliminary prototype of implementation of IP with QoS Data headers on OCB. > Both of these are not available so far for IP-over-OCB…but I am not sure > (and I guess other might have different perspective on this, in order to > make this draft move on), is that such restrictions are ‘spectrum’ > specific…, which is outside the scope of the IETF (as I understand > it)…so, I would not see such lack of specification blocking the current > draft, considering the fact that it includes a mention that > regional/national restrictions could apply, which would need an > additional specifications (at a later stage…). I am trying to understand what you say. You say that security framework and duty cycle are not available for IP-over-OCB. I agree with you. Then you say that lack of spec - presumably spec of security and duty cycling - should not block the advancement of IP-over-OCB. I also agree with you. But this is not what I meant. I meant this: there is no implementation of IPV6-over-OCB with QoS Data headers. As such the advancement of the IP-over-OCB spec SHOULD NOT be pursued in this direction. > So, to my perspective, it is not what is 'available' but what is > 'required'…and this is pretty clear (and came straight from the ETSI ITS > chairs...).. > > Yet, I also think that from a global perspective, IP-over-OCB should not > enforce using QoSHeaders, considering > > 1) IP would provide the required priorization of channel access Agreed. > 2) the draft would indicate that this possibility is subject to > national/regional regulations that could say it differently. No. The national/regional regulations may stumble very hard when it comes to Internet. Witness how GDPR makes that access to some website is simply blocked. > And one last thing: if you access ITS-G5 with nonQoSheader and other > stations have QoS headers, then you will systematically loose !! That is > just due to the fact that nonQoSheaders can access the channel only > after an IDLE DIFS time...while nonQoSheader uses IDLE AIFS times, which > for 3 queues out of 4 are shorter than the DIFS...(not mentioning the > CW, which is also significantly shorter) So, I would say that using > nonQoSHeader will lead to performance drop when competing with other > ITS-G5/DSRC traffic on a same channel...(as most ITS-G5/DSRC traffic is > broadcast, their CW will never increase (while yours might) and always > be smaller than your NonQoSHeader profile). I agree with you. However, I do not fear the situation of systematically losing. I trust more in the growth of channel capacity that will accomodate more as time goes by. And so in an area whose size is defined by restricted power levels there would be enough space for all these IP and safety messages. I fear more that QoS Data headers are put there below IP as a pretext, without demonstrating something guaranteed for the safety messages. How would the benefits of an implementation of QoS Data headers below IP be demonstrated? We tried with the tc command (that is in the IP fields, not in the 802.11 QoS Data fields), and iperf, and we could not demonstrate benefits of QoS: packets get lost despite QoS guarantees. Certainly, that is not 802.11 headers, but it is something to give an idea. Alex > > My two cents, > > > BR, > > Jérôme > > -----Original Message----- > From: its [mailto:its-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Petrescu > Sent: Tuesday 16 July 2019 21:53 > To: Russ Housley > Cc: Nabil Benamar; Mirja Kuehlewind; IESG; its > Subject: Re: [ipwave] Mirja Kühlewind's Discuss on > draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > Russ, > > Sorry if the open-vs-closed text adds no clarity, but I do not know how > > to express it better. > > I think the special-purpose frequency allocation for 802.11-OCB does not > > impose QoS Data headers, even though it does tell that range is for > > safety applications for ITS.  I may be wrong though. > > Finally, as far as I know, there are no IPv6-over-OCB implementations > > with QoS Data headers, even if there are many implementations of CAM > > and BSM over 802.11-OCB with such headers.  But I will be happy to stand > > corrected if this were the case: is there an implementation of > > IPv6-over-OCB with QoS Data headers? > > Alex > > Le 16/07/2019 à 18:56, Russ Housley a écrit : > > > Alex: > > > > > > I am very uncomfortable with your proposed text.  IEEE 802.11-OCB > > > uses special-purpose frequency allocation.  I think the text about > > > open vs. closed systems is going to add confusion, not clarity. > > > > > > Russ > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 16, 2019, at 4:36 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> Russ, > > >> > > >> Le 15/07/2019 à 16:38, Russ Housley a écrit : > > >>> Alex: Of course, jamming will deny service, regardless of the > > >>> values used for the QoS bits. What would you like to see instead > > >>>  of the second MUST? Russ > > >> > > >> I would like to see something like this: > > >> > > >> OLD: > > >>> IP packets MUST be transmitted over 802.11-OCB media as QoS Data > > >>> frames whose format is specified in IEEE 802.11 spec > > >>> [IEEE-802.11-2016]. The IPv6 packet transmitted on 802.11-OCB are > > >>> immediately preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and > > >>> an 802.11 header.  In the LLC header, and in accordance with the > > >>> EtherType Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the > > >>> value of the Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6).  The > > >>> mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of > > >>> 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user > > >>> priority. > > >> > > >> NEW: > > >>> The IPv6 packets transmitted on 802.11-OCB are immediately > > >>> preceded by a Logical Link Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 > > >>> header.  In the LLC header, and in accordance with the EtherType > > >>>  Protocol Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the > > >>>  Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6). In open systems, the > > >>> 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted over 802.11-OCB > > >>> media MUST be an 802.11 Data header. In such systems, receivers > > >>> of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST understand and fully parse IP > > >>> packets preceded by 802.11 Data headers.  Receivers SHOULD NOT > > >>> drop IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data headers. In closed > > >>> systems, the 802.11 header preceding the IP header transmitted > > >>> over 802.11-OCB media SHOULD be an 802.11 QoS Data header.  In > > >>> such systems, receivers of IP packets over 802.11-OCB MUST > > >>> understand and fully parse IP packets preceded by 802.11 QoS Data > > >>> headers.  In such systems, it is required that the mapping to the > > >>> 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which > > >>> specifies the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority. The > > >>> frame format of 802.11 Data headers and QoS Data headers is > > >>> specifed in IEEE 802.11 spec [IEEE-802.11-2016]. > > >> > > >> Alex > > >> > > >>>> On Jul 15, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Le 13/07/2019 à 04:53, Russ Housley a écrit : > > >>>>> Alex: I did not add or remove any MUST statements.  I only > > >>>>> added a phrase of rationale. > > >>>> > > >>>> I agree that the 2nd MUST was there before, and that a phrase > > >>>> of rationale was added. > > >>>> > > >>>> The phrase of rationale motivates the 2nd MUST.  It is > > >>>> logical. > > >>>> > > >>>> I agree with the rationale but I disagree with the MUST. > > >>>> > > >>>> (It is possible to implement the rationale without doing the > > >>>> MUST.  I.e. it is possible to guarantee time-sensitiveness and > > >>>>  criticality of safety by increasing bandwidth; reserving QoS > > >>>> priorities is but an alternative to satisfy the rationale > > >>>> within a limited bandwidth.) > > >>>> > > >>>> (the bandwidth available on 802.11 in OCB mode currently peaks > > >>>>  at 16Mbit/s theoretical within a range of approximately 1km > > >>>> measured.  The number of OCB interfaces in an OCB subnet of > > >>>> that physical size is less than hundreds, and certainly not > > >>>> thousands.  Within these dimensions, criticality and > > >>>> time-sensitiveness could be happening naturally.  An increase > > >>>> in theoretical bandwidth to approximately 54mbit/s would be > > >>>> even more sufficient) > > >>>> > > >>>> (disturbing the time-sensitiveness and criticality of safety > > >>>> can be realized despite the guarantees offered by QoS > > >>>> priorities; radio jamming and IP security attacks are easy to > > >>>> perform and would overcome QoS priorities.) > > >>>> > > >>>> Alex > > >>>> > > >>>>> Russ > > >>>>>> On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:32 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> hats and freedoms are valuable. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I disagree with the second MUST.  I will write a draft > > >>>>>> IPv6-over-OCB without QoS headers. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Alex > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Le 11/07/2019 à 17:51, Russ Housley a écrit : > > >>>>>>> I suggest that the MUST statement remain, but that a bit > > >>>>>>>  of rationale be provided: The IPv6 packet transmitted on > > >>>>>>>  802.11-OCB are immediately preceded by a Logical Link > > >>>>>>> Control (LLC) header and an 802.11 header.  In the LLC > > >>>>>>> header, and in accordance with the EtherType Protocol > > >>>>>>> Discrimination (EPD, see Appendix D), the value of the > > >>>>>>> Type field MUST be set to 0x86DD (IPv6).  The mapping to > > >>>>>>>  the 802.11 data service MUST use a 'priority' value of 1 > > >>>>>>>  (QoS with a 'Background' user priority), reserving > > >>>>>>> higher priority values for safety-critical and > > >>>>>>> time-sensitive traffic [IEEE-1609.2]. Russ > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2019, at 7:40 PM, John Kenney > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Hi All: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I have no desire to re-litigate the QoS issue. However, > > >>>>>>>> it's important to remember that IP-over-OCB will > > >>>>>>>> typically share public regulated spectrum with non-IP > > >>>>>>>> safety-of-life communications. In the US, FCC > > >>>>>>>> regulations require that such safety communications > > >>>>>>>> have access priority over other communications [47 CFR > > >>>>>>>>  § 90.377(d)] .  I would be cautious about removing the > > >>>>>>>>  current language unless you are convinced that doing > > >>>>>>>> so will not adversely affect non-IP safety > > >>>>>>>> communications. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Best Regards, John > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 6:18 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Thanks. Removing this text entirely is a good option. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Mirja > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On 10. Jul 2019, at 13:39, Nabil Benamar > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Actually, the text was written some time ago and > > >>>>>>>>> different views > > >>>>>>>> were shared in the group. I think we need to remove > > >>>>>>>> this text to avoid confusion. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 8:44 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> Hi Nabil, > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I think my point was slightly different. Dorothy > > >>>>>>>>> mainly advised > > >>>>>>>> you _how_ to specify the priority. However my question > > >>>>>>>>  is rather _if_ that is needed and if it is really > > >>>>>>>> appropriate to use a MUST here. Can you further explain > > >>>>>>>> why that is seen as a mandatory requirement? > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Mirja > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On 9. Jul 2019, at 23:29, Nabil Benamar > > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Mirja, > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your review and comments. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> You raised a very important point that was > > >>>>>>>>>> discussed > > >>>>>>>> extensively on the ML and then we asked the IEEE 802.11 > > >>>>>>>> members (thanks to Dorothy Stanly) to provide us with a > > >>>>>>>> review to help us clarify this point. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Here is what we got from them: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> .  Suggest to simply state that the data is > > >>>>>>>>>> transmitted with > > >>>>>>>> “User Priority” of Background (numerically 1 or 2), and > > >>>>>>>> leave the internal details of how this is accomplished > > >>>>>>>> to the 802.11 specification. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> User Priority is typically described as a simple > > >>>>>>>>>> integer (not > > >>>>>>>> a binary value), and the mapping of this User Priority > > >>>>>>>>  to TID header value is another 802.11 detail, best > > >>>>>>>> left to the 802.11 specification.  For example: in the > > >>>>>>>>  802.11 specification the TID field is specified to be > > >>>>>>>> 4 bits in the header.  The use of these 4 bits to carry > > >>>>>>>> the User Priority information is an internal > > >>>>>>>> specification of 802.11 and potentially subject to > > >>>>>>>> change.. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Suggest using terminology from the MAC SAP in IEEE > > >>>>>>>>>>  Std > > >>>>>>>> 802.11-2016 Clause 5.2.  This clause intentionally > > >>>>>>>> abstracts the exact details of 802..11’s internal > > >>>>>>>> operation, while describing specifically the behavior > > >>>>>>>> required by the user.  For example, the following > > >>>>>>>> text: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> “In the 802.11 header, the value of the Subtype > > >>>>>>>>>> sub-field in > > >>>>>>>> the Frame Control field MUST be set to 8 (i.e. 'QoS > > >>>>>>>> Data'); the value of the Traffic Identifier (TID) > > >>>>>>>> sub-field of the QoS Control field of the 802.11 header > > >>>>>>>> MUST be set to binary 001 (i.e.  User Priority > > >>>>>>>> 'Background', QoS Access Category 'AC_BK').” > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> could be replaced by: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> “The mapping to the 802.11 data service MUST use a > > >>>>>>>>>>  ‘priority’ > > >>>>>>>> value of 1, which specifies the use of QoS with a > > >>>>>>>> “Background” user priority.” > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks again. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 5:43 PM Mirja Kühlewind via > > >>>>>>>>>>  Datatracker > > >>>>>>>> > wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot > > >>>>>>>>>> position for > > >>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-49: Discuss > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line > > >>>>>>>>>> intact and reply > > >>>>>>>> to all > > >>>>>>>>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. > > >>>>>>>>>> (Feel free to > > >>>>>>>> cut this > > >>>>>>>>>> introductory paragraph, however.) > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Please refer to > > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, > > >>>>>>>>>> can be found > > >>>>>>>> here: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> DISCUSS: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> One point on this sentence, which I believe was > > >>>>>>>>>> also commented > > >>>>>>>> in the TSV-ART > > >>>>>>>>>> review (Thanks Jörg!): > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> sec 4.2: "The mapping to the 802.11 data service > > >>>>>>>>>> MUST use a 'priority' value of 1, which specifies > > >>>>>>>>>> the use of QoS with a 'Background' user priority." > > >>>>>>>>>> I don't think this should be a MUST requirement. I > > >>>>>>>>>> assume the > > >>>>>>>> assumption here > > >>>>>>>>>> is that IP traffic is always some "random" data > > >>>>>>>>>> that is less > > >>>>>>>> important than > > >>>>>>>>>> other V2V communication. However, this is a generic > > >>>>>>>>>> mapping > > >>>>>>>> document and should > > >>>>>>>>>> therefore probably not make such an assumption (or > > >>>>>>>>>>  at least it > > >>>>>>>> would need to be > > >>>>>>>>>> spelled out). > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> COMMENT: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >> > > >>>>>>>>>> One editorial high level comment: I seams like all > > >>>>>>>>>>  text that > > >>>>>>>> was somehow deemed > > >>>>>>>>>> as out fo scope for the main body of this document > > >>>>>>>>>>  got stuffed > > >>>>>>>> into the > > >>>>>>>>>> appendix. Please consider removing what is really > > >>>>>>>>>> not needed > > >>>>>>>> in this document > > >>>>>>>>>> as these pages also take review and RFC Editor > > >>>>>>>>>> time, > > >>>>>>>> especially as they seem to > > >>>>>>>>>> have received less review and therefore have more > > >>>>>>>>>> nits. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A  A future > > >>>>>>>>>> improvement/in OCB > > >>>>>>>> mode. A future > > >>>>>>>>>> improvement/ > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Best Regards > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of > > >>>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay > > >>>>>>>>>> Ismail University Meknes. Morocco > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Best Regards > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Nabil Benamar Associate Professor Department of > > >>>>>>>>> Computer Sciences School of Technology Moulay Ismail > > >>>>>>>>>  University Meknes. Morocco > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its > > >>>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org > > >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -- John Kenney Director and Sr. Principal Researcher > > >>>>>>>> Toyota InfoTech Labs 465 Bernardo Avenue Mountain View, > > >>>>>>>> CA 94043 Tel: 650-694-4160. Mobile: 650-224-6644 > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ its > > >>>>>>> mailing list its@ietf.org > > >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing > > >>>> list its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ its mailing list > > >> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > its mailing list > > its@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Mon Jul 22 14:25:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C673A1202CB for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:25:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HK_NAME_FM_MR_MRS=1.499, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jTzOHxirxRhX for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D610F1202B8 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id x4so40843327wrt.6 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:25:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ic1y+DGQjYP6XXKbYAOzqP2s4tqLluDENM/8Eg6qkcQ=; b=WWFukHkXDG922pH0WBWAJKkwamb9pMiYx12YXjzVqyzgvz8XRwy0u/wfJJbBG6sD6J hahIruFiLfjgVurgoI9xhAOO8GaH6B8yQa7+Tmk6g/JAMTLVQ7jnGTvxBph7kDdDmSHo nfQAq5VIg2LRpDsYv+Zp4uh6v+S2Mfad8oQY15wkLzWHv4MMfrPfZmHDGF62hiVmic+I Wc5m0k99lcDUSU78B2whmWZLXeAor+hQ/IszMZFBZ0rbN/fHIFiAcm3t9oS6/oGiOEnn 691KxxP3vfFyLJ+URDoPB04Z3kZwr5exslT0VjX/eWYV2cEfW4LfEJ8Jwk6VJmXY2Scq 19rg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ic1y+DGQjYP6XXKbYAOzqP2s4tqLluDENM/8Eg6qkcQ=; b=kFhjUmm1uuLqyVCjPjsNmTN12zyipJ16YsHMKCnPLDAHTO+vxAsCtKkL9y9FlS7eTf UCe+IKf9QShjy8dE+I8+EJESrqos27MT61+eVNRYzt0TV17whpRb3fVDJKLBRSTsIhmo K7HG1APDhvycuqqqwBuY6E8gMH0u5HgxoDsged+3TM38hA3dgft8E7gMRKEwqx0hEyb+ od5BRFjC3YewAexbSP0Q7tBv1i9LKn9n+Iz8iS8555WoAjXBZfcqnCb0LF32A0r5Go0w YfMMzgcg/QFpleeCxqQ4+JjwYYdVckCNAyMfyHRC374YuaRjQjw/sIK0CICgzxIvgT7H Elbg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXddUBAEyP6FzZDvL8hZx3NlPFX2hn0cfYgjVdfvILXUMnB0ck/ 6f8DhC5lja0dvfdjzoiggkoBCVRo3txC3DqL7+ye7tPF X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx+jgjw2hupYlaGP1YdgvMnQw4O8S/Bv1voxqrhuQJ0ZgcFaIMEtFoDOKQDNuKtCHK8LlHN02LuBECSIm0C+Yo= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f281:: with SMTP id k1mr3991725wro.154.1563830726072; Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:25:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:24:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: its@ietf.org Cc: skku_iotlab_seminar@googlegroups.com, "Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eaa0b0058e4bb654" Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] IPWAVE Hackathon Project Demo at Hackdemo Happy Hour X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:25:36 -0000 --000000000000eaa0b0058e4bb654 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi IPWAVE WG, There will be a demo for IPWAVE Basic Protocols Hackathon Project at Parc Mont-Royal (2nd floor) from 18:10-19:40 today: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/floor-plan?room=parc-mont-royal#2nd-floor The slides file is located at: https://github.com/IETF-Hackathon/ietf105-project-presentations/blob/master/IETF-105-IPWAVE-Hackathon-Project.pdf The demo video clip is located at: https://youtu.be/5OnpnYUiLhg The github source code is located at: https://github.com/ipwave-hackathon-ietf/ipwave-hackathon-ietf-105 Could you drop by the booth? Thanks. Best Regards, Paul -- =========================== Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Software Sungkyunkwan University Office: +82-31-299-4957 Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com, pauljeong@skku.edu Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php --000000000000eaa0b0058e4bb654 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi IPWAVE WG,
There will be a demo for IPWAVE Basic Pr= otocols Hackathon Project
at=C2=A0Parc Mont-Royal (2nd floor) fro= m 18:10-19:40 today:

The slides file is locat= ed at:
=C2= =A0
The demo video clip is located at:

The github source code is located at:
=C2=A0
Could you dro= p by the booth?

Thanks.

B= est Regards,
Paul
--
=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department= of Software
Sungkyunkwan University
Office: +82-31-299-4957
Email= : jaehoon.paul@= gmail.com,=C2=A0pauljeong@skku.edu
Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php
<= /div>
--000000000000eaa0b0058e4bb654-- From nobody Tue Jul 23 02:39:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09F312018D for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:39:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Pw-tl8JCbtu for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C393A12018B for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6N9d68k004322 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:06 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E01522062FB for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D612120619B for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.68.118] ([10.8.68.118]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6N9d6Xd003992 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:06 +0200 To: its@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <1eece2a6-14e5-eb9f-796f-3bd0c7061a40@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:39:06 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] IPWAVE Hackathon Project Demo at Hackdemo Happy Hour X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:39:11 -0000 if somebody tries IPv6 over OCB then it would be good to try to call function ieee80211_set_qos_header (wme.c) to understand why IPv6 can not be transmitted with QoS Data headers on OCB at 5.9GHz I found this manual on the Internet about QoS http://www.campsmur.cat/files/mac80211_intro.pdf Le 22/07/2019 à 23:24, Mr. Jaehoon Paul Jeong a écrit : > Hi IPWAVE WG, > There will be a demo for IPWAVE Basic Protocols Hackathon Project > at Parc Mont-Royal (2nd floor) from 18:10-19:40 today: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/floor-plan?room=parc-mont-royal#2nd-floor > > > The slides file is located at: > https://github.com/IETF-Hackathon/ietf105-project-presentations/blob/master/IETF-105-IPWAVE-Hackathon-Project.pdf > > > The demo video clip is located at: > https://youtu.be/5OnpnYUiLhg > > The github source code is located at: > https://github.com/ipwave-hackathon-ietf/ipwave-hackathon-ietf-105 > > Could you drop by the booth? > > Thanks. > > Best Regards, > Paul > -- > =========================== > Mr. Jaehoon (Paul) Jeong, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > Department of Software > Sungkyunkwan University > Office: +82-31-299-4957 > Email: jaehoon.paul@gmail.com , > pauljeong@skku.edu > Personal Homepage: http://iotlab.skku.edu/people-jaehoon-jeong.php > > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > From nobody Thu Jul 25 06:46:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB68F12001A; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 06:46:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: its@ietf.org Message-ID: <156406237987.12613.6896522812916332682@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 06:46:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:46:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. Title : Basic Support for IPv6 over IEEE Std 802.11 Networks Operating Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set Authors : Nabil Benamar Jerome Haerri Jong-Hyouk Lee Thierry Ernst Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2019-07-25 Abstract: This document provides methods and settings, for using IPv6 to communicate among nodes within range of one another over a single IEEE 802.11-OCB link. Support for these methods and settings require minimal changes to existing stacks. This document also describes limitations associated with using these methods. Optimizations and usage of IPv6 over more complex scenarios is not covered in this specification and is subject of future work. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jul 25 07:37:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90631202D2 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:36:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q02icuCE1ODU for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF272120294 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 07:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6PEapRp036200 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:36:51 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F4772017F6 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:36:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04DC3201393 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:36:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.68.110] ([10.8.68.110]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x6PEamWB022228 for ; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:36:50 +0200 To: "its@ietf.org" References: <156406237987.12613.6896522812916332682@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:36:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <156406237987.12613.6896522812916332682@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51.txt X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:37:00 -0000 Thanks for the new version! I have some comments from the earlier versions, so I think it is time I put them now on the list. I wonder whether you think addressing these comments are necessary now, or I can send them later, maybe after some more thought? Anyways, here are the comments: > but operates over 802.11-OCB to provide at least P2P (Point to Point) > connectivity using IPv6 ND and link-local addresses. 802.11-OCB is not a point-to-point link and nobody used it as such. I think the writer of this text has a completely different understanding than me, about what is a point-to-point link. For me, a point-to-point link is typically a cellular link, not an 802.11 link. A more tangible differentiator is the absence of MAC addresses most of the time. > The link model is the following: STA --- 802.11-OCB --- STA. In > vehicular networks, STAs can be IP-RSUs and/or IP-OBUs. All links > are assumed to be P2P and multiple links can be on one radio > interface. Nobody assumes the 802.11-OCB to be P2P (point-to-point) links; for my part, I never linked multiple links on one radio interface. I do not understand what the writer of this text meant. > IPv6 Neighbor Discovery protocol (ND) requires reflexive properties > (bidirectional connectivity) which is generally, though not always, > the case for P2P OCB links. I do not understand what is meant by P2P OCB links? > [Abstract:] Support for these methods and settings require minimal > changes to existing stacks. > [Section 4.2 Frame Format:] The mapping to the 802.11 data service > SHOULD use a 'priority' value of 1 (QoS with a 'Background' user > priority), These two paragraphs seem contradictory. Because making QoS 'Background' priority requires the use of 802.11 QoS Data headers which are not available in existing stacks. For my part I did not see stacks that do QoS Data headers. SO adding QoS Data headers requires much changes to existing stacks. (note: I do like and agree with the way in which 'minimal changes' is formulated and added for the draft). (note: I did see QoS Data headers but never seen the stacks that send them). Alex Le 25/07/2019 à 15:46, internet-drafts@ietf.org a écrit : > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Wireless Access in > Vehicular Environments WG of the IETF. > > Title : Basic Support for IPv6 over IEEE Std 802.11 > Networks Operating Outside the Context of a Basic Service Set > Authors : Nabil Benamar Jerome Haerri Jong-Hyouk Lee Thierry Ernst > Filename : draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51.txt Pages : 31 > Date : 2019-07-25 > > Abstract: This document provides methods and settings, for using > IPv6 to communicate among nodes within range of one another over a > single IEEE 802.11-OCB link. Support for these methods and settings > require minimal changes to existing stacks. This document also > describes limitations associated with using these methods. > Optimizations and usage of IPv6 over more complex scenarios is not > covered in this specification and is subject of future work. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ > > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51 > > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51 > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing > list I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft > directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Thu Jul 25 15:28:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2471201D1; Thu, 25 Jul 2019 15:27:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <156409367990.17800.9043633665191551601.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 15:27:59 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:28:00 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for addressing my DISCUSS and some of the COMMENTs. (Resolved comments removed) (5) Section 1. Per “The resulting stack inherits from IPv6 over Ethernet [RFC2462], but operates over …”, what exactly is being inherited? What does “inherited” mean in this case? (6) Section 4.3. Per “Among these types of addresses only the IPv6 link-local addresses can be formed using an EUI-64 identifier, in particular during transition time”, the meaning of the “in particular during transition time isn’t clear in the text. Should it say "in particular as all clients are upgraded to this specification?" (9) Section 5. What is “protected 802.11” mentioned in “Such a link is less protected …”? (10) Section 5.2. SHA256 needs a reference. (11) Editorial Nits ** Section 4.5. Typo. s/.A A future/. A future/ ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/Futhermore/Furthermore/ ** Section 5.1. Typo. s/pricavy/privacy/ ** Section 5.2. Typo. s/admninistered/ administered/ ** Appendix H. Duplicate word. s/section Section 2/Section 2/ From nobody Fri Jul 26 14:39:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietf.org Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE7D120047; Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:39:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb@ietf.org, Carlos Bernardos , ipwave-chairs@ietf.org, cjbc@it.uc3m.es, its@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.99.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= Message-ID: <156417717503.7722.9240832934189609560.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:39:35 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draf?= =?utf-8?q?t-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 21:39:35 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb-51: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my discuss! One editorial high level comment: I seams like all text that was somehow deemed as out fo scope for the main body of this document got stuffed into the appendix. Please consider removing what is really not needed in this document as these pages also take review and RFC Editor time, especially as they seem to have received less review and therefore have more nits. nit: sec 4.5.2 s/in OCB mode.A A future improvement/in OCB mode. A future improvement/ From nobody Mon Jul 29 09:58:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A85120344 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:58:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5HzmsoThFm5B for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64D79120347 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467A7300AA5 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:39:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ojtiKJEETSaz for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [172.20.3.215] (unknown [50.235.191.99]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 276263004AF for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:39:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:58:46 -0400 To: its X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [ipwave] IPWAVE WG meeting at IETF 105 in Montreal, QC, CA X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 16:58:53 -0000 https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-ipwave-00 Please review the DRAFT minutes. Please post comments to the mail list. Russ From nobody Mon Jul 29 10:05:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: its@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4CC120169 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDNFm62Wbr2I for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13B84120356 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id h10so59322765ljg.0 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:05:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dEIcNDwLl7/2gBrZlunJYAIasfrApAMMQzgFr7tuIUI=; b=XJKhUheYOwxytjxBkYhJOoUohuNPD87+l9f9p6le3HcLKAaMwCSfu95xCTwGh6siMJ QXViLZ+vzeOYD9nmbPS+nglYF3Mz7Zzlm7Lbkmgti4B3c7KZTMdaGMW74RyNuTHXCEEk ZOzqyfX6XJv1J8AO3fpNXYMGeP7dmcuBQebFiIDNwCbK5s66+au10PPzkcFRsJ7ddc+D Ct1uf5FyXRKGzz2Nsge7MSV84O+YsEs8u3qbLggNZahOBqZzwgpK1d0xfhZigGkgnEUd O1wS2oblm0zVidlc2peRJIssZ7jSM4BtOvkbGa3oc7Gk98ZsqRjK6fj1wQ2uMKy0Q3u4 DfiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dEIcNDwLl7/2gBrZlunJYAIasfrApAMMQzgFr7tuIUI=; b=TwSbmNqsR2A5sOM22hMyHjEEHemAoCcqyPp6VY4SUnIA0sisnAnPowvoX916YYuEbS 2/FZfqTrj0R2VtbZpa1hfow1RLGZ7dQzVkdVDs74Eg5htJWwrsoVUTFL9yz1sXufqJ72 +QXMB4b7NqJwEN/6pPeF5kc1jYzG/MXm9alYoBy/Wg4Mb0PSkTQ2W5M4hYaJ9b/BIfRq Uc623WSTLcTLkSwlqIiaQjJ8c+zcDQp2DhnL2BXIXGB7oAjMpnu63GRgXnKawqgsr8dC rptE/ufLiiHf7jeCh/Qs7JdYzFDqapQuDAwSbS8UisjK9e0P6T+unC/SBb4vclLUE5wP ZcXw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUAMf2RXEqPTOv6vimBlDhupv2uGDs0hBC8M10LawFdhL1/ecUZ HONeA/6cB38TtA6yi185xNPRnlxqa20cEqtgBNU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwYs0xVxTvWELDyZY+Usek+nUyj3uqGtbySehulDlbPc46E0i7DaRiLav3uIq+ZCWLwwPLdWZjUmGdqGpf4Rak= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2b9d:: with SMTP id r29mr58399283ljr.181.1564419932036; Mon, 29 Jul 2019 10:05:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nabil Benamar Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 18:05:21 +0100 Message-ID: To: Russ Housley Cc: its Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054243f058ed4e6f8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ipwave] IPWAVE WG meeting at IETF 105 in Montreal, QC, CA X-BeenThere: its@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IPWAVE - IP Wireless Access in Vehicular Environments WG at IETF List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 17:05:36 -0000 --00000000000054243f058ed4e6f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Russ, Thank you very much for the minutes. Concise and clear. Much appreciated! On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 17:59 Russ Housley wrote: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-ipwave-00 > > Please review the DRAFT minutes. Please post comments to the mail list. > > Russ > > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > --00000000000054243f058ed4e6f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=C2=A0Russ,


Thank you very much for the minutes.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Concise and clear.

Much appreciated!

On Mon, Jul = 29, 2019, 17:59 Russ Housley <ho= usley@vigilsec.com> wrote:
<= a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-ip= wave-00" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/minutes-105-ipwave-00

Please review the DRAFT minutes.=C2=A0 Please post comments to the mail lis= t.

Russ

_______________________________________________
its mailing list
its@ie= tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its
--00000000000054243f058ed4e6f8--

Best Regards

Nabil Benamar
Associate Professor
Department of Computer Scienc= es
Scho= ol of Technology
Moulay Ismail=C2=A0University=C2=A0
Meknes. Morocco