Subject: [iucg] Industry, JTC1/ISO, W3C, IUse, Wikimedia - where are we ?

From: JFC Morfin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2012 12:29:58 +0200

At 17:20 04/04/2012, Stracke, Christian wrote:
>Dear all,
>I'm sorry bit "jfc" is mixing up different standards and committees 
>(what is easy):

Sorry for the confusion. The problem with ISO and ISO documents is 
that they are not documented on (i.e. interested in? i.e. interesting 
for?) Wikipedia.

1. 19788-1, can be found for free at: 
http://www.sis.se/PageFiles/2140/MLR-utkast%20arbetsmaterial.pdf

2. The Wikidata issue, as I see it, is that we do not start from an 
architectural framework based on a business plan, charter or TOR. It 
seems that the current target is to implement a W3C semantic web 
current-Wikimedia general data-store. This does not consider Wikidata 
as a major contributor to the future-Wikimedia development.

Agreeing on the role Wikidata is to play in the Wikimedia adaptation 
to the Internet future should be our first point of consensus. Otherwise :

1. Wikidata is of no direct interest to Internet Users, only to 
Wikipedia contributors;
2. another Wikimedia project is to be considered as a Wikidata back-end.

Certainly, at a time, there will be a need for a datamodel. But first 
we need to locate Wikidata in the Wikimedia strategy as a 
data-collector and as a data-desseminator, not only as a data-store, 
in a real world where there are five main conceptual channels : (1) 
Business World diversity (Search Engines, etc.), (2) JTC1, (3) W3C, 
(4) emergent IUsers [Intelligent lead users: FLOSS, IUCG], (5) 
Wikimedia. Possibly we have to consider Big Data, and the border with 
Big Data as it will emerge.

As being on the IUse side, I know that we need a convergence of these 
channels if we want to attain a good degree of (meta/syllo) data 
interchange and not multiply costs, complication and lack of progress 
everywhere (not only in sciences). Wikidata is not only about 
millions of lonely contributors/authors as Wikipedia  is, it also is about

* ISO 11179  conformant very large sources contributions
* diktyologies (from greek diktyos, network), i.e. dynamically 
auto-maintained intelligent ontologic spaces. This is a part we have 
to explore and support with new concepts (such as syllodata: data 
between metadata), cloud architecture, programming languages. 
Otherwise Wikimedia will soon be a story of the past, its free 
commons being copied by many (like http://wikipedia.orange.fr) and 
distributed and automatically enhanced by powerfull diktyologies with 
integrated big (scientific, etc.) data servers.

jfc

---

From: Denny Vrandečić <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2012 12:45:28 +0200

Dear JFC,

we do not have a charter, but we have a technical project proposal [1] and
a list of fundamental requirements [2].

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Technical_proposal
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikidata/Notes/Requirements

I am not sure if this addresses your comments, as I am frankly having
trouble to follow them. You are frequently using of neologisms and weird
terms. Also you seem to be discussing within a conceptual space that is on
a different level than we are interested in.

In short, we have for Wikidata two pragmatic goals:
* Wikidata's first aim is to support the Wikipedias with their language
links
* Wikidata's second aim is to support the Wikipedias with the infoboxes

Out of the support for these tasks, other interesting use cases might and
are expected to arise.

Until I manage to understand how your comments relate to one of these
goals, I will personally take the liberty to ignore your comments.

Cheers,
Denny

2012/4/5 JFC Morfin <[email-masked]>

>> I'm sorry bit "jfc" is mixing up different standards and committees (what
>> is easy):
>>
>
> Sorry for the confusion. The problem with ISO and ISO documents is that
> they are not documented on (i.e. interested in? i.e. interesting for?)
> Wikipedia.
>
> 1. 19788-1, can be found for free at: http://www.sis.se/PageFiles/**
> 2140/MLR-utkast%**20arbetsmaterial.pdf<http://www.sis.se/PageFiles/2140/MLR-utkast%20arbetsmaterial.pdf>
>
> architectural framework based on a business plan, charter or TOR. It seems
> that the current target is to implement a W3C semantic web
> current-Wikimedia general data-store. This does not consider Wikidata as a
> major contributor to the future-Wikimedia development.
>
> Agreeing on the role Wikidata is to play in the Wikimedia adaptation to
> the Internet future should be our first point of consensus. Otherwise :
>
> 1. Wikidata is of no direct interest to Internet Users, only to Wikipedia
> contributors;
> Certainly, at a time, there will be a need for a datamodel. But first we
> need to locate Wikidata in the Wikimedia strategy as a data-collector and
> as a data-desseminator, not only as a data-store, in a real world where
> there are five main conceptual channels : (1) Business World diversity
> (Search Engines, etc.), (2) JTC1, (3) W3C, (4) emergent IUsers [Intelligent
> lead users: FLOSS, IUCG], (5) Wikimedia. Possibly we have to consider Big
> Data, and the border with Big Data as it will emerge.
>
> everywhere (not only in sciences). Wikidata is not only about millions of
> lonely contributors/authors as Wikipedia  is, it also is about
>
> auto-maintained intelligent ontologic spaces. This is a part we have to
> explore and support with new concepts (such as syllodata: data between
> metadata), cloud architecture, programming languages. Otherwise Wikimedia
> will soon be a story of the past, its free commons being copied by many
> (like http://wikipedia.orange.fr) and distributed and automatically
> enhanced by powerfull diktyologies with integrated big (scientific, etc.)
> data servers.
>
> jfc
>
>

-- 
Project director Wikidata
Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Eisenacher Straße 2 | 10777 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

---

From: JFC Morfin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 11:02:14 +0200

At 12:45 05/04/2012, Denny VrandeÄiÄ‡ wrote:
>* Wikidata's first aim is to support the Wikipedias with their language links
>Out of the support for these tasks, other interesting use cases 
>might and are expected to arise.
>
>Until I manage to understand how your comments relate to one of 
>these goals, I will personally take the liberty to ignore your comments.

Fair enough :-)

Your assesments are correct. As I first documented it, our 
([email-masked]) target in this area is the Internet+ (smart fringe to 
fringe Internet) MDRS (metadata registry multilinguistic distributed 
referential system). The MDRS is to the Internet+ and to the Semiotic 
Internet (Intersem) that we explore, what the IANA is to the legacy 
Internet, and what Wikidata might be to Wikimedia.

Our "use case" is the Internet+ distributed operations (I documented 
the IETF Drafts references). The MDRS will most probably be a 
datawiki or/and a DDDS (the DNS is a DDDS) of some sort. Todays IANA 
and wikis are humanly fed and read, datawikis will be more and more 
fed and read by intelligent processes. This intelligence leads to 
additional opportunities and constraints.

Our targets are the same, however you have to have conceptual limits, 
while by essence I must have none. This is why I tried to poke our 
possible common interest areas. Your two confirmed documents now 
gives us your current limits (the more people understand what the 
"revolution" (as per wikimedia) datawikis are going to be, the more 
they may expect from them).

My own target is to internally review these documents, assess their 
possible evolution, strive to stay interoperable, and permit users 
and applications to take a better advantage from your project 
(wikidata.iucg.org). We will alert you if we fear possible 
architectural conflicts through our work and tests. This seems to be 
in line with what Lydia responded today.

Best
jfc

---

From: Denny Vrandečić <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:45:23 +0200

Thanks, JFC. Often those that will change the world tomorrow are those that
are not understood today.

Cheers,
Denny

2012/4/6 JFC Morfin <[email-masked]>

> At 12:45 05/04/2012, Denny Vrandečić wrote:
>
> Your assesments are correct. As I first documented it, our ([email-masked])
> target in this area is the Internet+ (smart fringe to fringe Internet) MDRS
> (metadata registry multilinguistic distributed referential system). The
> MDRS is to the Internet+ and to the Semiotic Internet (Intersem) that we
> explore, what the IANA is to the legacy Internet, and what Wikidata might
> be to Wikimedia.
>
> Our "use case" is the Internet+ distributed operations (I documented the
> IETF Drafts references). The MDRS will most probably be a datawiki or/and a
> DDDS (the DNS is a DDDS) of some sort. Todays IANA and wikis are humanly
> fed and read, datawikis will be more and more fed and read by intelligent
> processes. This intelligence leads to additional opportunities and
> constraints.
>
> while by essence I must have none. This is why I tried to poke our possible
> common interest areas. Your two confirmed documents now gives us your
> current limits (the more people understand what the "revolution" (as per
> wikimedia) datawikis are going to be, the more they may expect from them).
>
> possible evolution, strive to stay interoperable, and permit users and
> applications to take a better advantage from your project (
> wikidata.iucg.org). We will alert you if we fear possible architectural
> conflicts through our work and tests. This seems to be in line with what
> Lydia responded today.
>
> Best
> jfc
>
>