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[82.69.111.234]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k17sm15337wru.35.2021.04.26.06.38.57 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Apr 2021 06:38:57 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:38:56 +0100 Message-ID: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_014F_01D73AA9.E36F3880" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: Adc6oSnpb9+5AeJ9SWSEKj4DtNMqtA== Content-Language: en-gb Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 08:04:55 -0700 Subject: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:40:12 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01D73AA9.E36F3880 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0150_01D73AA9.E36F3880" ------=_NextPart_001_0150_01D73AA9.E36F3880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I'm writing to you as a programmer for a company that uses massive datasets and starting to utilize 64bit numbers as our system currently heavily relies on JSON, RFC 8259 I was wondering if there were any plans to add support for literal notation of BigInt E.G ` "property":9007199254740991n` Kind Regards Martin Barker Project Systems Manager. Data Protection Officer for Beaconsoft Limited. 6 Time Nominee 4 Time Winner Level 4 www.thisisbeacon.com / https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-barker-7745731a/ t: +44 (0) 3302 234 588 / d : +44 (0)113 328 2367 / m: +44 (0) 7736160152 Breaking news.... Beacon named as Tech Nation Rising Stars 3.0 Cyber Award 2021 Winners. #WeAreTechNation Beaconsoft Limited. Registered in England 10209657. VAT number 258 0216 17.Registered Office: 71-75 Shelton Street, Covent Garden, London, UK, WC2H 9JQ.This email is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. Beaconsoft Limited does not accept responsibility for reliance on this email by anyone other than the intended addressee. Although we have taken steps to ensure this email and any attachments are virus-free, we cannot guarantee this to be the case as it has been sent over a public network. Read our privacy policy. ------=_NextPart_001_0150_01D73AA9.E36F3880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

I’m = writing to you as a programmer for a company that uses massive datasets = and starting to utilize 64bit numbers as our system currently heavily = relies on JSON, RFC 8259 I was wondering if there were any plans to add = support for literal notation of BigInt E.G ` = "property":9007199254740991n`

 

Kind = Regards

 

Martin Barker=

Project Systems Manager.

Data Protection Officer for Beaconsoft = Limited.

 

3D"Innovation

 

6 Time Nominee
4 Time Winner

Level 4

 

www.thisisbeacon.com /= https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-barker-7745731= a/=

t: +44 = (0) 3302 234 588 / d : +44 (0)113 328 2367 / m: +44 (0) = 7736160152=

=  

=

=
Breaking news.... Beacon named as Tech Nation Rising Stars = 3.0 Cyber Award 2021 Winners. #WeAreTechNation

 

Beaconsoft Limited. Registered in England = 10209657. VAT number 258 0216 17.Registered Office: 71-75 Shelton = Street, Covent Garden, London, UK, WC2H 9JQ.This email is confidential = and is intended for the addressee only. Beaconsoft Limited does not = accept responsibility for reliance on this email by anyone other than = the intended addressee. Although we have taken steps to ensure this = email and any attachments are virus-free, we cannot guarantee this to be = the case as it has been sent over a public network. Read = our privacy policy.

 

 

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--0000000000005f8ba805c0ed0cb3-- From nobody Thu Apr 29 04:22:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE2D3A3AE5 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 04:22:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7OkDdvzCGCS for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 04:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (ppsa-online.com [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DE9C3A3AE2 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 04:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4616 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2021 12:22:42 +0100 Received: from host31-49-16-155.range31-49.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (31.49.16.155) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPS (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 encrypted, authenticated); 29 Apr 2021 11:22:42 -0000 To: martin.barker=40thisisbeacon.com@dmarc.ietf.org, json@ietf.org References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> From: Pete Cordell Message-ID: <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:22:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:22:51 -0000 As no one else has answered this, my understanding, more as an observer than as a key working group member, is that you would have to put such large numbers in a string and RFC 8259 doesn't care what you put in strings. Things like dates, durations, IP addresses, geolocations and large numbers in strings are beyond its scope. At some point some work towards a separate RFC on higher level semantics for JSON string contents might take place but I'm not aware of any such work on the table yet. HTH, Pete. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd C++ tools for C++ programmers, http://codalogic.com Read & write XML in C++, http://www.xml2cpp.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- On 26/04/2021 14:38, martin.barker=40thisisbeacon.com@dmarc.ietf.org wrote: > Hello, > > I’m writing to you as a programmer for a company that uses massive > datasets and starting to utilize 64bit numbers as our system currently > heavily relies on JSON, RFC 8259 I was wondering if there were any plans > to add support for literal notation of BigInt E.G ` > "property":9007199254740991n` > > Kind Regards > > ** > > *Martin Barker* > > Project Systems Manager. > > Data Protection Officer for Beaconsoft Limited. > > > > > > Innovation award > > > > > > 6 Time Nominee > 4 Time Winner > > > > Level4 > > www.thisisbeacon.com >  / > https://www.linkedin.com/in/martin-barker-7745731a/ > > > t: +44 (0) 3302 234 588 / d : +44 (0)113 328 2367 / m: +44 (0) 7736160152 > > > Breaking > news.... Beacon named as Tech Nation Rising Stars 3.0 Cyber Award 2021 > Winners. #WeAreTechNation > > Beaconsoft Limited. Registered in England 10209657. VAT number 258 0216 > 17.Registered Office: 71-75 Shelton Street, Covent Garden, London, UK, > WC2H 9JQ.This email is confidential and is intended for the addressee > only. Beaconsoft Limited does not accept responsibility for reliance on > this email by anyone other than the intended addressee. Although we have > taken steps to ensure this email and any attachments are virus-free, we > cannot guarantee this to be the case as it has been sent over a public > network. Read our privacy policy > . > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Thu Apr 29 14:33:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51BED3A10F5 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:33:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HAKEI6s9UMFB for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF6313A10EC for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id u80so34358300oia.0 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:33:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GjWwvtRB60p+scoH5PrBD2lmPKViMbc0XfXzDKIS+Qo=; b=D1pqSeXUzmJW6ARFW+0pnO3zvLG32Ew/SpwLOwb1lTK23cadSah4s0CZ3dzzH63uuZ mCcF3qICr2WPCownMKdAUD5wB3gxkyjKG5NdLiJaXKQJi77KG+ohh9pmq4UoilgKiEZw EOmlGzJxj7jpzBd33JLZCcmog+tibuKfBH8wz3OnSopIqZQhneLn1+j5AHquAjw7xPoP IqUNHpGmktRMnd2RrBLopj4Fl92xY12yI7EG6DwazJfb6GzZFM0gQ1KWPv5GKyU87oNN tADLUsktqXk4eh9+MckR6zqmh5epfizh8uU0nyEscLGEX3DeRx53Ubu6CM3YIsZWDPl4 tdKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=GjWwvtRB60p+scoH5PrBD2lmPKViMbc0XfXzDKIS+Qo=; b=KZ+PzHnv0PJUaLrjBs7XIWXt/Nd9L74Nh+bVJGqNBG5+VinHfAi6XDBPSo+nAbvQ68 2FTJApul6wKO+M0edXRoQ8Y275+r1MUYlGVekWqEhzY6wZzz/7IAEdLo5/qlotd3S2AM y0yBeHqS5QsWyxE54misUdZAViOveuKe5GhaOTACevoN3yYUoX3vpj6Mic6hWIjlZed0 yu99B7ckLWuVsNu4YU26bnEiFMQ6AzESduJsOXFBVvyIAnPm52ks3o7x/B/BrVn63Zid j0QiUgROcVCy19KEG3MulEKY3ZjCyIntj2M0Sd/cOO3J0ExnS4BcESTrzRxOYEPgN8Ym eJnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532DeeoOSqjXAlX0ty9tcrcE+61+/AS1pX8DjCdiKkTCFicxjbGm 0GVa/gZ9r0uu9xfKfKLHwHlN5xLBrbo2z5bhIBUvXYt5AkYfkg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmsf+FnBqCofcleLY1S0Cr4wzK1XChxEZx52LUvix8vlznR2sy3yC1netbCrvaghTuIz8kXVqjTQeNMV32E0M= X-Received: by 2002:aca:db41:: with SMTP id s62mr1552108oig.54.1619731991054; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:33:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> In-Reply-To: <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> From: David Kemp Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:32:59 -0400 Message-ID: To: json@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f54e5d05c1233d46" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 21:33:17 -0000 --000000000000f54e5d05c1233d46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Also as an observer, RFC8259 doesn't care what you put in numbers either, as long as they are digits with no leading zeroes and an optional fractional part. "This specification allows implementations to set limits on the range and precision of numbers accepted." If an implementation supports bignums (or even int64s) then nothing in the JSON spec prohibits it from doing so. If the implementation supports only IEEE 754 doubles, then it's the implementation that needs to be updated, not the standard. If you're relying on implementations outside of your control, then putting numbers in strings is a workaround to prevent them from getting molested along the way. That said, applications that handle massive datasets, or at least massive amounts of serialization, are probably better off using a serialization designed for that purpose such as Protobuf or CBOR. Dave On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 7:22 AM Pete Cordell wrote: > As no one else has answered this, my understanding, more as an observer > than as a key working group member, is that you would have to put such > large numbers in a string and RFC 8259 doesn't care what you put in > strings. Things like dates, durations, IP addresses, geolocations and > large numbers in strings are beyond its scope. > --000000000000f54e5d05c1233d46 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also as an observer, RFC8259 doesn't care what yo= u put in numbers either,
as long as they are digits with no leadi= ng zeroes and an optional fractional part.

"This specifi= cation allows implementations to set limits on the range and
prec= ision of numbers accepted."

If an implementation support= s bignums (or even int64s) then nothing in the JSON
spec prohibit= s=C2=A0it from doing so.=C2=A0 If the implementation supports only IEEE 754= doubles,
then it's the implementation that needs to be updat= ed, not the standard.=C2=A0 If you're
relying on implementati= ons outside of your control, then putting numbers in strings
is a= =C2=A0workaround to prevent them from getting molested along the way.
=

That said, applications that handle massive datasets, o= r at least massive amounts
of serialization, are probably better = off using a serialization designed for that purpose
such as Proto= buf or CBOR.

Dave


On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 7:22 AM= Pete Cordell <petejson@codalo= gic.com> wrote:
As no one else has answered this, my understanding, more as an obser= ver
than as a key working group member, is that you would have to put such
large numbers in a string and RFC 8259 doesn't care what you put in strings.=C2=A0 Things like dates, durations, IP addresses, geolocations and=
large numbers in strings are beyond its scope.
--000000000000f54e5d05c1233d46-- From nobody Thu Apr 29 16:38:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051683A1825 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:38:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z-NkMDfXwzBS for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0ACD3A131B for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id z13so26414208lft.1 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:38:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MoTgbDhXNMtInwQHA7aeAqobAQyYmB45rRcSp53dbNY=; b=dZDSS2lrsJGPWgdmnS/nToHUBOT5twdL8F8XYRKij8kgnI+DA4rRpArGu/QjZIezVa rZCYbbiUkCAF6Bk9MwnpiVHPj4EJFiJ+sDViaEIRWCHU+uBaKHnjd7umci569PkdLhBp Y19wLiwWjI8KJiIyPVSK7Co6pIw5+nnmQSBXgJFNIqecDpl2PGnuDBAS0OVJfuf9vAQw kQ+P9BADNdyOdMFesLBvi+WTUko/2pFvR8No8MqXeXFhsNgFBVioB+sqXWu1vpB5cEF7 OMCy9I8VPz4FvHyjRLcvDmFMMpMDxI1nLLd9f60ZKupHZjJ68DmUZDsdXxlA19hKfoqW 1N/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MoTgbDhXNMtInwQHA7aeAqobAQyYmB45rRcSp53dbNY=; b=tK1eKdB5qSE4DedvAYeqJdl+WEUSfCvOqZIGlZsEgexeVl4F13IVRj9pM+Sx6zfCyd /bfbLDmYp6v+fsohJlMwDLklQD7Z8gfr6+MPKqvx8KEbNh/MlVVs4oOcrQxlsp/nz02N 6Cv++0YbeQUDF5frYGSvyGewnCbwIf8YkG33yEcFzIDkLR6oxA7sbcSGoTMlHXJsTes/ pvrQx//WySo9Mr6/er86I8SQu2aOOlR4WA6gWDoW9UhtKotiDDYe/CD1hJnMWM3FdGHL kMEeXrqRn6Iy51t/8rxHcpoZzFgbtkELKTzHjD62PGM39QSHnDmxt/PTmbhQsUw3bpRC c+Hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533SRTXZMDhYsTQT2btvDThICSBoq/s30vHDE7prOejC2Q6cNW0F l3T9j+L15GulmEvu4nBHjpmHOzDdS4J+m629bW03wQJY5jgiZw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyUJ9ZTNdP5xxHPNMX/F89+x2jjs7UjKNdlMUM7qKrXu3Z2ZEdfn3LrbaF0u0QWlM/KlTCzwTHCpzKUUPiYpPI= X-Received: by 2002:a19:5011:: with SMTP id e17mr1423078lfb.536.1619739482367; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:38:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:37:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Kemp Cc: JSON WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000079c81c05c124fc48" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 23:38:10 -0000 --00000000000079c81c05c124fc48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yeah, speaking as the editor of a bunch of those RFCs, I would very much like it if JSON could be extended to have comments, timestamp literals, and typed numbers. But it's too late. JSON is finished, is generated and consumed by a very large amount of deployed software which is simply not going to be updated; changing the syntax at this point would be catastrophic. For crypto apps, you pretty well have to put the big numbers in strings. Sorry we can't help. On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 2:33 PM David Kemp wrote: > Also as an observer, RFC8259 doesn't care what you put in numbers either, > as long as they are digits with no leading zeroes and an optional > fractional part. > > "This specification allows implementations to set limits on the range and > precision of numbers accepted." > > If an implementation supports bignums (or even int64s) then nothing in the > JSON > spec prohibits it from doing so. If the implementation supports only IEEE > 754 doubles, > then it's the implementation that needs to be updated, not the standard. > If you're > relying on implementations outside of your control, then putting numbers > in strings > is a workaround to prevent them from getting molested along the way. > > That said, applications that handle massive datasets, or at least massive > amounts > of serialization, are probably better off using a serialization designed > for that purpose > such as Protobuf or CBOR. > > Dave > > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 7:22 AM Pete Cordell > wrote: > >> As no one else has answered this, my understanding, more as an observer >> than as a key working group member, is that you would have to put such >> large numbers in a string and RFC 8259 doesn't care what you put in >> strings. Things like dates, durations, IP addresses, geolocations and >> large numbers in strings are beyond its scope. >> > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --00000000000079c81c05c124fc48 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yea= h, speaking as the editor of a bunch of those RFCs, I would very much like = it if JSON could be extended to have comments, timestamp literals, and type= d numbers.=C2=A0 But it's too late. JSON is finished, is generated and = consumed by a very large amount of deployed software which is simply not go= ing to be updated; changing the syntax at this point would be catastrophic.= =C2=A0 For crypto apps, you pretty well have to put the big numbers in str= ings. =C2=A0
Sorry we can= 't help.

On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 2:33 PM David Kemp <dk190a@gmail.com> wrote:
Also as an observer, RFC8259 doesn't car= e what you put in numbers either,
as long as they are digits with= no leading zeroes and an optional fractional part.

"Thi= s specification allows implementations to set limits on the range and
=
precision of numbers accepted."

If an implementatio= n supports bignums (or even int64s) then nothing in the JSON
spec= prohibits=C2=A0it from doing so.=C2=A0 If the implementation supports only= IEEE 754 doubles,
then it's the implementation that needs to= be updated, not the standard.=C2=A0 If you're
relying on imp= lementations outside of your control, then putting numbers in strings
=
is a=C2=A0workaround to prevent them from getting molested along the w= ay.

That said, applications that handle massive da= tasets, or at least massive amounts
of serialization, are probabl= y better off using a serialization designed for that purpose
such= as Protobuf or CBOR.

Dave


On Thu, Apr 29, 2021= at 7:22 AM Pete Cordell <petejson@codalogic.com> wrote:
As no one else has answered this, my understanding, more as an observer =
than as a key working group member, is that you would have to put such
large numbers in a string and RFC 8259 doesn't care what you put in strings.=C2=A0 Things like dates, durations, IP addresses, geolocations and=
large numbers in strings are beyond its scope.
_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json
--00000000000079c81c05c124fc48-- From nobody Fri Apr 30 04:34:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9E33A11C2 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4cW7HqU2B1h for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsa-online.com (ppsa-online.com [217.199.162.192]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 175173A11BF for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24688 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2021 12:34:05 +0100 Received: from host31-49-16-155.range31-49.btcentralplus.com (HELO ?192.168.1.72?) (31.49.16.155) by lvps217-199-162-217.vps.webfusion.co.uk with ESMTPS (TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 encrypted, authenticated); 30 Apr 2021 11:34:05 -0000 To: Tim Bray , David Kemp Cc: JSON WG References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> From: Pete Cordell Message-ID: <198dae96-4fdf-400e-cee6-c708b7d24874@codalogic.com> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:34:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:34:13 -0000 Maybe its time to work on something that is truly human friendly and not a hand-me-down from some other domain? Like my little side project: Line Oriented Object Notation - LOON. It's either stripped down JSON or stripped down YAML depending on your point of view. Essentially line-oriented with "Key : Value" format on each line, but objects start as "Key {" and arrays starts as "Key [" (so strings can be unquoted and start with "{" or "["). Values are just strings with higher layers associating/enforcing semantics such as integer, float, date etc. And looks like: # Some fake details about me com.codalogic.aboutme { Name: Pete Cordell Height: 178 DoB: 1969-04-18 Children [ { Name: Sarah Height: 170 } { Name: Jenny Height: 144 } ] Grades [ A B C ] PlaceOfBirth: " string with leading spaces! " History < \ ; N.B. quotation-mark is NOT escaped %x62 / ; b i.e.: \b -> backspace %x66 / ; f i.e.: \f -> form feed %x6E / ; n i.e.: \n -> line feed %x72 / ; r i.e.: \r -> carriage return %x74 / ; t i.e.: \t -> tab %x75 (4HEXDIG / "{" 1*6HEXDIG "}") ; \uXXXX or \u{XXXXXX} -> U+XXXX escape = %x5C ; \ quotation-mark = %x22 ; " eol = ows ( CR [ LF ] / LF ) not-eol = HTAB / %x20-FF ows = *WSP ; Optional white space ;; Keywords true-kw = %x74.72.75.65 ; "true" false-kw = %x66.61.6C.73.65 ; "false" ;; Referenced RFC 5234 Core Rules ALPHA = %x41-5A / %x61-7A ; A-Z / a-z CR = %x0D ; carriage return DIGIT = %x30-39 ; 0-9 HEXDIG = DIGIT / "A" / "B" / "C" / "D" / "E" / "F" HTAB = %x09 ; horizontal tab LF = %x0A ; linefeed SP = %x20 ; space WSP = SP / HTAB ; white space Slightly more at https://github.com/codalogic/LOON if anyone is tempted. If we started now we could be finished in 10 years time :-) Pete. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Pete Cordell Codalogic Ltd C++ tools for C++ programmers, http://codalogic.com Read & write XML in C++, http://www.xml2cpp.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- On 30/04/2021 00:37, Tim Bray wrote: > Yeah, speaking as the editor of a bunch of those RFCs, I would very much > like it if JSON could be extended to have comments, timestamp literals, > and typed numbers.  But it's too late. JSON is finished, is generated > and consumed by a very large amount of deployed software which is simply > not going to be updated; changing the syntax at this point would be > catastrophic.   For crypto apps, you pretty well have to put the big > numbers in strings. > > Sorry we can't help. > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 2:33 PM David Kemp > wrote: > > Also as an observer, RFC8259 doesn't care what you put in numbers > either, > as long as they are digits with no leading zeroes and an optional > fractional part. > > "This specification allows implementations to set limits on the > range and > precision of numbers accepted." > > If an implementation supports bignums (or even int64s) then nothing > in the JSON > spec prohibits it from doing so.  If the implementation supports > only IEEE 754 doubles, > then it's the implementation that needs to be updated, not the > standard.  If you're > relying on implementations outside of your control, then putting > numbers in strings > is a workaround to prevent them from getting molested along the way. > > That said, applications that handle massive datasets, or at least > massive amounts > of serialization, are probably better off using a serialization > designed for that purpose > such as Protobuf or CBOR. > > Dave > > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 7:22 AM Pete Cordell > wrote: > > As no one else has answered this, my understanding, more as an > observer > than as a key working group member, is that you would have to > put such > large numbers in a string and RFC 8259 doesn't care what you put in > strings.  Things like dates, durations, IP addresses, > geolocations and > large numbers in strings are beyond its scope. > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Fri Apr 30 06:48:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171B53A1896 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 06:48:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Id_69wkFcWRB for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 06:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EC4F3A1892 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 06:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FWtxJ0hyQzyYX; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 15:48:20 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <198dae96-4fdf-400e-cee6-c708b7d24874@codalogic.com> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 15:48:19 +0200 Cc: JSON WG X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 641483299.54697-ee9f9d7e05d727a898316deb21603281 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <08E59FD8-DC60-4899-8A3F-321579D2BE9D@tzi.org> References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> <198dae96-4fdf-400e-cee6-c708b7d24874@codalogic.com> To: Pete Cordell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:48:27 -0000 On 2021-04-30, at 13:34, Pete Cordell wrote: >=20 > LOON Aptly named :-) The reason JSON worked was that =E2=80=9Cit was just JavaScript Object = Notation=E2=80=9D, which was able to quell all the discussions. We won=E2=80=99t have that luxury for anything new. It is also unclear we need another text-based format; YAML has pretty = much filled that space (like it or not). For interchange (where it is more important to have a well-developed = specification), with an extensible data model that is based on that of = JSON, we have CBOR. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Apr 30 12:36:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7443A2421 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7hMIQEg1zAy5 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1773A3A2420 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id t11-20020a05600c198bb02901476e13296aso1659255wmq.0 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:36:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fh+rP6Tx30e6A29MLMLpLinO2WHN2CXALI/xa+f45SM=; b=K3FgBKrfzq8OtVziMcbxLmC5YyuVTDIuMlJz0MNwVBjjddbhmWd6L7tU4TWJ18tTML EQPGH2LkUV+HtVeZ8VjDaTPzJHIekf6eMvvYjTVNI//yuYBxVdGT50f3twA4WhX687Ht LzFznFDZAornOvfnXp7H+ennyMR8DZ/lKY6bIw9s2V7t/M2O1m/+QyrNfbGdD+6EJ3GB fPwJFVeoSvvEWO+hS6amozLAOcD4F1GxfMmemD/rpo5kNcAVQHMbcHIERI+50XJrMm+4 QgeKpm0CL2GBluzaS2YJSwDYLdDRC3r0wmEGcWdmo1t1Db7zga6kaG7C3/jyJLZGhMHG 3fGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fh+rP6Tx30e6A29MLMLpLinO2WHN2CXALI/xa+f45SM=; b=SUDojYHUIL/GXPC+BYzxsKQRQMkjs/KyUWFERYY8Go9lYttt4Jr51HZhpimDF+DLCA ddUPU4GBeULALBnkpyy4eY27raEZlr2xmKvB6Hn7Tj3YcS8ypoVftSNt3BI1Kjezbeag zQH8a+FrPREOVqmQbO/+i3AuYhXCqUhTtUlVBvfzpXm9aJV8DpRB7n0U1QgRQy85SdWq YroLkgdeeN7gyju4KJ8bJMLrfpv/LWxFcbU+Ja4nobhSD+2on3TkntMho4O4SfbKaoUv H0A3EK//wJYyg6tO1ffDySyjEp86kw/sje025GjeN1zfHhTVFPPDcOR/PkNQzyo6g75t r0pA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533oQdUOtIoWGuCVrx41k3VwpKbKUJKL/d7giMq6iaZzMDmyzvD4 /tCMyXlFfNSV0U+vw7GgqF9/OMI1NzXKr1gXcsCFUv91hTpSIQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx+Lu0DhoCXfUiSimdNkyW+ot6Uh7wId4o2jgbNXwkvD1R3h0KtrFp1IZ3dJQIK2/kmQPfnNDWF1VWYOTzSfgc= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cc11:: with SMTP id f17mr7879058wmh.159.1619811409634; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:36:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Daniel P Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 15:36:38 -0400 Message-ID: To: JSON WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:36:57 -0000 From: Pete Cordell > At some point some work towards a separate RFC on higher level semantics > for JSON string contents might take place but I'm not aware of any such > work on the table yet. Do you mean in the context of a schema specification? And on the subject of schemas, is there any chance that JCR will ever become an IETF specification? The last draft appears to have expired April 1, 2018. Best regards, Daniel From nobody Fri Apr 30 12:58:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D8E3A24F6 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:58:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5c88TFmu4M4q for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x631.google.com (mail-ej1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9F753A24F5 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x631.google.com with SMTP id gx5so14896438ejb.11 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:58:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SmqZvE+Pa0Uko76zgCA6cMSiMtKBw2hOPNh/NPdUTcY=; b=IuzLuBvIWizDYAmKu2hTpMWMdtWojgmoySy+m2+bz3v/1zcyoq2VsKwhhTlXC8DR4L rY18euJ9Y+Unsmyv2eVjAVU+HRu0qWxm+pMxNdrprnVr8bdvMDCduiH7ryEhkXlWeI/M cGkWQtEN2XTIngcmfNCmE2jT9uzvQ6RdaaYdutOPzPFcEP2S0gWUPh0sRrOH3L2yI2WA xcX3l0guAqn/VgadfNl2/loYCJKSeydnBPYfR6qoNr88ZYZbKUVZwIX2q9CLPcnuPKZU qwHMUb4HdEG/FIcT/cwTVCfwOvlHT8/om08w7XRMLALWUPmVZngAnlB6yNlh+T+nIvB3 Z5OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SmqZvE+Pa0Uko76zgCA6cMSiMtKBw2hOPNh/NPdUTcY=; b=CZgyvEwQlkt0yuF5XhEojwzALlmGACm70kDGSGsfNipqiHu+qiUQmt2G5yks4mYB4y /ySUXxau6ObFoLXcOd3ooBMv+DYdouZBz/Hq0++uMI9TyHEspO4Re1lqhUckjQbrntIr XunPLl2rUoDojBAuQMewdxuqr3PHgKu6UU7lpsOfbylzjWxylPRaLUn9E60M75DlSK8o wP8JDBR7sL/E2J+/oRUlJqMy48Izk76irjiSZ8VUzh0CpPfmqeQVFjsMIXIYNN3Mo+wx 5s0ykfq6ahL6IjdWRJrtMrbMPEIMrJmr65fPEEU9NQcq8xjRSX9ibuQHow9NwI04gloj rTHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530wh1lvJfyvV7FkIR/8HDy7hp5DonUXqS9LeQNeL/XGn7UrLoYW ZW46GbtX4puxbmkAeoxvMmWdJPirtgVQUMkb8ys= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxUlHkhHM/+kFCxaqpNvlz6AVOZO+zd41CJRaqPJlHYWUv2UrFo2v1npzV+NKF5uqKcezMk4lB46AMyv0gx2gg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:ca46:: with SMTP id jx6mr2039760ejb.434.1619812729276; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:58:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 12:58:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tim Bray Cc: David Kemp , JSON WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054cb3f05c1360a90" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:58:57 -0000 --00000000000054cb3f05c1360a90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 4:38 PM Tim Bray wrote: > Yeah, speaking as the editor of a bunch of those RFCs, I would very much > like it if JSON could be extended to have comments, timestamp literals, and > typed numbers. > Well, if JSON had comments, it would have all sorts of extensions by now, which is why it doesn't have them. Comments that are actually comments would be nice, but programmers can't be trusted. > But it's too late. JSON is finished, is generated and consumed by a very > large amount of deployed software which is simply not going to be updated; > changing the syntax at this point would be catastrophic. > Yes. > For crypto apps, you pretty well have to put the big numbers in strings. > JSON numbers interchanged between languages that have arbitrary-precision numbers work fine. But, JS BigInt (original post) operations aren't constant time, so you shouldn't use them for crypto anyway [1]. Put the big numbers in strings if you think JavaScript might be in the picture. For many other languages, you don't need to. It should also be possible to detect number precision in a JSON encoder/decoder if really desired. thanks, Rob [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/BigInt#cryptography (see also the suggestion for JSON stringifying below) --00000000000054cb3f05c1360a90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 4:38 PM Tim Bray = <tbray@textual= ity.com> wrote:
Yeah, speaking as the editor of a bunch of those RFCs, I would very = much like it if JSON could be extended to have comments, timestamp literals= , and typed numbers.

Well, if = JSON had comments, it would have all sorts of extensions by now, which=C2= =A0is why it doesn't have them. Comments that are actually comments wou= ld be nice, but programmers can't be trusted.
=C2=A0
But it's too late. JSON is finished, is generated = and consumed by a very large amount of deployed software which is simply no= t going to be updated; changing the syntax at this point would be catastrop= hic. =C2=A0

Yes.
=C2= =A0
For crypto apps, you pretty well have to pu= t the big numbers in strings.

J= SON numbers interchanged between languages that have arbitrary-precision nu= mbers work fine. But, JS BigInt (original post) operations aren't cons= tant time, so you shouldn't use them for crypto anyway [1].
<= br>
Put the big numbers in strings if you think JavaScript might = be in the picture. For many other languages, you don't need to. It shou= ld also be possible to detect number precision in a JSON encoder/decoder if= really desired.

thanks,
Rob
<= br>
=
--00000000000054cb3f05c1360a90-- From nobody Fri Apr 30 13:07:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2793A2530 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:07:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hs2rULC2eOIK for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAEA03A252B for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id n138so112030319lfa.3 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:07:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C8HK3f32PTfxTJxo/q1ZyVWd9AnqJyM5Poe+ARU5Ntw=; b=NvJjXtfA6Ms1GzbuRWWU5gHWJE2mYiMoEm1kazeKOvKwSebVRGDgHtEB1BRD8g1h5W i2ud1C7ZxEjUndMAt6Monp/2VfcM7ZdxuwAqPeQFNjOToo1V4/CB3AAD+GbkxDA5Qt2h J8rVE6wx6b41xKjjFDSomc7e7XWYKBuVmF6Fu/4PK8Eag3S2gZ+tIuOz6cozKJ80JMST mBiRllmsGy5Za4aZArqyOQG/9aGdheK1Sktu4MTbFiUbgvuYmQKLbkentgrbiVsL8jd4 u/kTuERpEYxSWOnw9aoBpe+naGwpwFbfevlD4o7rZHw1joWgmcFybdRVaL6jK7S7+64z bNpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C8HK3f32PTfxTJxo/q1ZyVWd9AnqJyM5Poe+ARU5Ntw=; b=eiXpRD6rL6SoqkHSV8zX1P1TEux1cOTMRHVKczZMWyPvZyj6PAH0sm/dzXEqG0TWjq TW872jiV4qDyQ/DbTXdrFXRmnEmWjqGq4tOi5ucEAjGLXEejyllftOELLSoK3tVvz2V5 DmrsNb6s/P9MDoBW8fTfV8qmAb6LS/3Cz4tfIfDuOGLfRAgJ9zaNSMpaLpczF+k5bdTx GfyCjgQucOnRB4jg7miVJpGisFy7fv4lXjETqIzkwVFeKh2jQaFUauAVtYqpqHpE9M/z QTizH3lc2xg5eVWCcrTJlMvMMCdLI2JExCua3NvbkgK8dhvZq3P1Zd8QldSjItYpwJ46 /QBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UgOwk0RUmR/wzBEu+hSHuxnglIe9xKS0jalZlhGVPB0qJQT5w 9KTyBQCS0Kma3au3/wqKJB9tyjRVa5Cd4uKD0VkTGg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyjYcKZObkf9aq+IPyhnsBLlO025vL6jokYjc0QqAxz+XXcK+hAXO9XTYcKJ6FUmc3qp3cbOBBSUl9ibm8yRP4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3f93:: with SMTP id x19mr4458730lfa.182.1619813244876; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:07:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tim Bray Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:07:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rob Sayre Cc: David Kemp , JSON WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010482605c1362909" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:07:33 -0000 --00000000000010482605c1362909 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 12:58 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > For crypto apps, you pretty well have to put the big numbers in strings. >> > > JSON numbers interchanged between languages that have arbitrary-precision > numbers work fine. But, JS BigInt (original post) operations aren't > constant time, so you shouldn't use them for crypto anyway [1]. > Um, some popular JSON libraries in languages that can handle big numbers fail to do the right thing. You're really asking for trouble if you put anything that can't fit in a IEEE double. *sadface* > --00000000000010482605c1362909 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 12:58 PM Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
For crypto apps, you prett= y well have to put the big numbers in strings.

JSON numbers interchanged between languages that have arbit= rary-precision numbers work fine. But, JS BigInt (original post) operation= s aren't constant time, so you shouldn't use them for crypto anyway= [1].

Um, some popular JSON libraries in lang= uages that can handle big numbers fail to do the right thing.=C2=A0 You'= ;re really asking for trouble if you put anything that can't fit in a I= EEE double. =C2=A0*sadface*

=C2=A0
--00000000000010482605c1362909-- From nobody Fri Apr 30 13:21:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE773A2596 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:21:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TRACKER_ID=0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HpJDvWKKC9bc for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ej1-x62c.google.com (mail-ej1-x62c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::62c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E4543A2593 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x62c.google.com with SMTP id zg3so25473866ejb.8 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:20:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KkuT3rF9Pss0lITQF1kWJpyDY9aSYHb1fPWsJeC3hws=; b=ZA3bJfV8YSQ8u1naZoBH5HgQLArY4Q6oeAFxBe/kC5XQHyEWPw1EuAeV63l36ZdlpK NDag3K/sX9EcBvixs68nRsIEeA+jeRmm/R2t9deOyby+t+l1xynBwGqq29QNmE+SrYca vfVXJ4f7ZW1S8TJ0CyD2hC2DSxpvyvV82I2Ah/krz7eS5xZ7mUSCn4s3qx8wonKDcZQw p5C6GTBLSGy9aObWSbAEAUZKsmTuTSUsPeQKC+bcQ2j8SIV2Qq1pbI7WId3asQ2aQyLw S8P/FH6+xcxMNvqPNXcLR3sMlvCkRNdg647ScHnkN1q8kbPePzKu4xMsuIBEAHyXBHcP DThQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KkuT3rF9Pss0lITQF1kWJpyDY9aSYHb1fPWsJeC3hws=; b=nKMBkkMcsNaudHHhhDx8uFpwk2CvaPSpitoe5CCn9jxtBIcMMLmRzKo8fEg7Odv/RX WJEunrbmbtcj48CbPoZ1hDGWq6KJI+jH+KX1nuBB61Vef9fMDqAEq7spIfbIyXH7s7GS CpU5aW3ElflbyXzE8W6v+MSix7ovAjplh53/gjwKv3vpZIbtJAkSRLk1Ay1vAxgzmF5U ouKEtd2bZ8+OcbuTDpcnl9aVYY8/WByA9SRTekO4Or2WN+yT1bGO2TgJADJ0WbNkPRUc 7NSccSVcX9KsxL1mHG2oUlYm5Je9XW5Y+p/OXjYm0n2X1JTVtuP5b1qkG7t/Yn64E8Zr Z3Kg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ccbx80RXU71n2ObCDkkwRmyilxbuPArdo1o+AlGCmqZOh6AY6 w0EqSB3ARXtETAMHfBWf5vL3uioI0eBsEsQpDyM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVyGQkRymhEX7aBoH3VlD/nbfoZ+++EbZM/dTohwFnp9oiwR88LTd5OpX0aqHjjByYuYSOXoKk6znpIa5zH7g= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:3f1c:: with SMTP id hq28mr4516596ejc.349.1619814052610; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:20:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <014e01d73aa1$81aa0d30$84fe2790$@thisisbeacon.com> <5987db79-06a7-69ab-faff-29c763a9a98d@codalogic.com> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tim Bray Cc: David Kemp , JSON WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000035487605c13659ae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:21:01 -0000 --00000000000035487605c13659ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 1:07 PM Tim Bray wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 12:58 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > >> For crypto apps, you pretty well have to put the big numbers in strings. >>> >> >> JSON numbers interchanged between languages that have arbitrary-precision >> numbers work fine. But, JS BigInt (original post) operations aren't >> constant time, so you shouldn't use them for crypto anyway [1]. >> > > Um, some popular JSON libraries in languages that can handle big numbers > fail to do the right thing. You're really asking for trouble if you put > anything that can't fit in a IEEE double. *sadface* > Definitely agree that quality-of-implementation varies, but lots of popular stuff gets this right: $ python Python 3.8.5 (default, Jan 27 2021, 15:41:15) [GCC 9.3.0] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> num_128 = 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 >>> import json >>> json.dumps(num_128) '170141183460469231731687303715884105727' >>> json.loads(json.dumps(num_128)) 170141183460469231731687303715884105727 >>> json.loads(json.dumps(num_128)) == num_128 True I also like Rust's serde-json approach here. The number precision is enforced by the decoder. Here's a u16 example: https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2018&gist=804012796c9a88a7a2252cb6ccab25eb In other words, I agree that a string is the best idea if you're not sure where the JSON is headed, but it works really well often enough. In fact, letting it break might be desirable, especially if you can enforce precision like serde-json does. thanks, Rob --00000000000035487605c13659ae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 1:07 PM Tim B= ray <tbray@textuality.com>= ; wrote:

<= br>
On Fri,= Apr 30, 2021 at 12:58 PM Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote:
For crypto apps, you pretty well have to put the= big numbers in strings.

JSON n= umbers interchanged between languages that have arbitrary-precision numbers= work fine. But, JS BigInt (original post) operations aren't constant = time, so you shouldn't use them for crypto anyway [1].

Um, some p= opular JSON libraries in languages that can handle big numbers fail to do t= he right thing.=C2=A0 You're really asking for trouble if you put anyth= ing that can't fit in a IEEE double. =C2=A0*sadface*

Definitely agree that quality-of-= implementation varies, but lots of popular stuff gets this right:

$ python=C2=A0

Python 3.8.5 (default, Jan 27 2= 021, 15:41:15)=C2=A0

[GCC 9.3.0] on linux

Type "help", "co= pyright", "credits" or "license" for more informat= ion.

>>> num_128 =3D 170141= 183460469231731687303715884105727

>>> import json=

>>> json.dumps(num_128= )

'17014118346046923173168730= 3715884105727'

>>> json.loads(json.du= mps(num_128))

1701411834604692317316873037158= 84105727

>>> json.loads(json.du= mps(num_128)) =3D=3D num_128

True


I also like Rust's serde-json approach here. The nu= mber precision is enforced by the decoder. Here's a u16 example:
<= div>

<= /div>
In other words, I agree that a string is the best idea if you'= ;re not sure where the JSON is headed, but it works really well often enoug= h. In fact, letting it break might be desirable, especially if you can enfo= rce precision like serde-json does.

thanks,
<= div>Rob

--00000000000035487605c13659ae-- From nobody Fri Apr 30 13:53:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B273A268E for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UVHvwy8fXJrP for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 434C83A268D for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FX4Ml0Nt3zyTV; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 22:53:23 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 22:53:22 +0200 Cc: JSON WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Daniel P X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Update Standard to support ECMA-262 BigInt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:53:30 -0000 On 30. Apr 2021, at 21:36, Daniel P wrote: >=20 > From: Pete Cordell >=20 >> At some point some work towards a separate RFC on higher level = semantics >> for JSON string contents might take place but I'm not aware of any = such >> work on the table yet. >=20 > Do you mean in the context of a schema specification? CDDL (RFC 8610) can already do much of what is probably needed here. If there is anything else to be added, CDDL has an extension point = (control operators) that is rather flexible. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten