From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Apr 1 00:49:20 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA05950 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B8v4Q-0008I7-BO for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:48:54 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i315msYA031871 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:48:54 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B8v4Q-0008Hy-4N for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:48:54 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA05941 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8v4N-0002gG-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:48:51 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B8v3Q-0002d0-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:47:54 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8v2g-0002aM-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:47:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B8v2a-0008Fd-PE; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:47:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B8v2T-0008FP-GO for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:46:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA05916 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8v2Q-0002Z2-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:46:50 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B8v1a-0002WT-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:45:59 -0500 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8v1F-0002RK-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:45:37 -0500 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.3); Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:45:02 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a16] Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:44:59 -0600 To: Ned Freed From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation Cc: Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 [This is a followup to Ned's message. I haven't seen his message appear on the list yet, so it may be caught in a non-subscriber filter. Please read his message before this one.] I've got some clarification questions, mostly for my own edification. Mike can say something about the arguments himself. On 3/31/04 at 3:48 PM -0800, ned.freed@mrochek.com wrote: >>1. Point vs. Continuous Attacks [...] >>In a push scenario, each server still has similar vulnerability: >>The IMAP server is still subject to point attacks (with the >>possible added avenue of the attacker being to push his acquired >>data through SUBMIT, for what that's worth) and the submission >>server is still subject to continuous attacks. > >When you consider change attacks you've allowed an IMAP server >exploit to be used to compromise future mail people send in various >ways. Are you saying here that a push-enabled IMAP server has the new exploit of a change attack which uses the sending mechanism? That's sort of what I was referring to when I said "possible added avenue" (though, admittedly I wasn't thinking of change attacks), but I get the feeling you're talking about something different. >>However, in a pull scenario, Mike argues that submission servers >>will now be subject to point attacks: An attacker who gains access >>to the submission server will potentially get access to a pull >>token. Once stolen, the pull token can then be taken and the >>attacker can leave the submission server, able to download the data >>from the IMAP server from another machine before the submission >>server has a chance to actually get the data. This would make the >>risk scenario for the submission server much different than the >>current state of affairs. > >First of all, for this to really be a point attack presumes you know >when the pull token you want becomes available to the submission >server. Actually, I think what Mike had in mind was that for any reasonably busy server, there were always going to be a collection of pull tokens lying around somewhere (in a well known place, depending on the implementation) waiting to be sent and that an attacker would be able to grab those. But of course you're right that if you're looking for a particular piece of data, you'll need a continuous attack. (Mind you, for a plain old IMAP server where you are looking for a particular piece of data, you're going to need some time on the server to search for the data you want, so it's not a simple point attack in that case either.) I guess my question is, if everything else is a wash on this score, isn't this still a new point vulnerability? >And even if you grant that the attacker has some way of devining >when a token will become available, this is easily defended against >by making the pull token only usable from the submission server. >(This can be configured into the IMAP server or it can be coded into >the token itself. Or both.) By "configured into the IMAP server", do you mean "only allow pull tokens to be used from a particular IP address" or something to that effect? With regard to "coded into the token itself": My understanding of the way the tokens were designed (and the reason they were going to be so handy for all sorts of things) was that they were going to be authorization tokens without authentication credentials. If we put something into the token that indicates which particular machine they can be used from, aren't we going to also be in the business of having the MUA figure out which submission server it's talking to and which IP address or other identity is going to have to be embedded in the token? >When change attacks enter the picture it all turns into a wash. In >the pull case the tokens cease to be interesting -- an attacker is >better off intercepting the outgoing mail in its entirety than the >small subset composed using pull mechanism. At least for the case of the clients I envision who are using the IMAP server to store the outgoing message (i.e., using APPEND or CATENATE to the "sent-messages" box and pulling from there), all of their messages are going to use the pull mechanism. (More on this at the end of the message.) So I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the above. >>2. Security Balances >>[...] >>With push, the equations stay pretty much the same: > >Sorry. The cost of the attack may stay the same, but the cost of >protection is critically dependent on code complexity and other, >similar factors. And the unfortunate reality is that proxies may >look simple but in fact are quite complex and hard to get right. And >you're adding one of these complex and tricky beasts to your IMAP >server. You've just raised the cost of protection substantially. I've heard the word "proxy" used in this context before, and I've been told some things are proxies and some things aren't. So the first question I've got is, what counts as a proxy? I take it the "bolt sendmail onto imapd" is a proxy in the worst possible way, right? Is an SMTP submit client in your average MUA a proxy? What does and doesn't constitute one of these things? Second, I keep hearing repeated that these are complex and tricky beasts. Maybe the answer to the above will make it perfectly clear, but what is it that's complex and hard to get right with these proxies? Again, perhaps I'm just missing the referent, but I'd be much happier if this argument didn't come down to "Trust me, I know about these proxies, and they're hard, so don't worry your pretty little head about this." I am feeling a bit like that's the answer I've been getting at times. >>Since it is possible for a single submission server to receive >>submissions from several IMAP servers, > >Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. This gets down to implementation >details. And you shouldn't be assuming that implementations and >configurations of push will be "smart" and those of pull will be >"dumb". I'm not sure I see where I have made the assumption that push installations will be "smart" and pull installations will be "dumb". If you think I have made that assumption, please point it out more explicitly. (I'm willing to admit that I might be unconsciously holding that sort of view, but I don't see where.) >>it means that you will have to protect the submission server to >>value of the data coming from the most valuable IMAP server. That >>potentially increases the cost of protection for the overall system >>(IMAP+submission) significantly more than with the push scenario. > >There's a hidden assumption here that the messages in the store are >more valuable to an attacker than the messages someone submits. This >may or may not be true - the temporal factor may mean that new >messages are hugely more valuable. Actually, the assumption that I've been making is that in the use-case that we're designing this for (low-resource clients), *all* data will be in the store. In the push case, that assumption is obvious. But even in the pull case, to this point we've talked about either (a) pulling completed messages from the IMAP store or (b) storing sent messages back into the IMAP store (with some sort of Fcc function). In either case, the IMAP store is where to be to get the good data when you want it if you're an attacker. >But even if you asssume the store is where the really valuable data >livs, I would contend that the difference in implementation >complexity between the two schemes makes this a wash once again. So, is the take away from this message (among other things) that security-wise, pull and push are really a wash? (More to the point, is there reason to believe that push is *worse*, security-wise, than pull?) pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 00:00:32 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA09160 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 00:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9Dz0-0000nR-Jv for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:00:34 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3220YH2003055 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:00:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9Bdo-0007YS-C1 for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:30:32 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA09179 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 18:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Bdk-00025f-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:30:29 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Bcg-0001yk-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:29:23 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Bbg-0001or-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:28:20 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B99QG-00058B-Dz for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:08:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:19:22 -0500 Message-ID: <20040401161922.11029.22422.Mailman@www1.ietf.org> Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@www1.ietf.org To: lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes X-Ack: no Sender: mailman-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: mailman-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: mailman@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DATE_IN_PAST_03_06, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60 This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing list memberships. 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Passwords for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- lemonade@ietf.org ewunaw https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/options/lemonade/lemonade-web-archive%40ietf.org From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 03:37:14 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA28908 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 03:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ECb-00005T-LA for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 21:14:38 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i322EbWo000333 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 21:14:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9CsD-0005bK-P0 for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:49:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15205 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9CsC-0004ar-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:49:28 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9CrF-0004S7-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:48:29 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9CqM-0004KN-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:47:34 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9AAe-0007XV-2P; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:56:20 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B95aI-0001La-NT for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:02:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA21941 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B95a7-0001DG-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:02:19 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B95ZD-00018T-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:01:24 -0500 Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.4]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B95Yv-00012q-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:01:05 -0500 Received: from shiva0.cac.washington.edu (shiva0.cac.washington.edu [140.142.37.170]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i31H0wFp029506; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:01:03 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva0.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i31H0wfn006184; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:00:58 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:00:58 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Pete Resnick cc: Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 In the new URLAUTH document, we have removed the client-generated URL functionality as being unneeded for Lemonade, so all URLs are created by SIGNURL. We have furthermore removed anonymous signed URLs as also being unneeded for Lemonade. Last but not least, the only current mechanism is INTERNAL. Consequently,.. All URLAUTH URLs have been created by the server using keys (and perhaps even an algorithm) that is unknown even to an authorized entity, much less an attacker. In order for a URLAUTH URL to be used, the client to the IMAP server (the submit server) must authenticate itself to the IMAP server. This authentication is also unavailable to an attacker. I think that this addresses most, if not all, of Mike's issues. I think that pull and push are a wash as far as security goes. However, I note that there is a vulnerability in push in that an attacker which compromises an IMAP server now has the keys to a submit server. These days, it appear that the greater security issue is a bad guy acquiring access to a trusted SMTP-injection point that will get around spam blockers. This point tends to be overlooked as most people think of SMTP as being unauthenticated. That isn't the case with the SMTP engines operated by the more vocal pull advocates, so there may be a cultural difference that blocks communication in this regard. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 04:10:31 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA00035 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 04:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9GHH-00011u-D1 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 23:27:35 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i324RZkE003959 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:27:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9DRE-0008LH-PM for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:25:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18372 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DRC-0002J7-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:25:38 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DQF-00027c-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:24:40 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DPG-0001ww-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:23:38 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ABq-0007dT-4c; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:57:34 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B960P-00024y-Rn for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:29:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22970 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B960E-0004BJ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:29:18 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B95zS-00043D-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:28:31 -0500 Received: from mxout3.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.166]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B95yT-0003vp-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:27:29 -0500 Received: from shiva0.cac.washington.edu (shiva0.cac.washington.edu [140.142.37.170]) by mxout3.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i31HRLl0022591; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:27:21 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva0.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i31HRLsL007297; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:27:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:27:21 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Derek Atkins cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Derek Atkins wrote: > Is the authentication of the submit server somehow tied to the URLAUTH > object? If so, how? Yes, in one of two ways depending upon how the URL was signed. In one form, the URL is only usable by a specific userid authenticated to the IMAP server; in the other, the URL is only usable by a userid authenticated to the IMAP server as having "submit server" role. In all cases, the submit server (the client to the IMAP server) must authenticate to the IMAP server prior to using any URLAUTH URL. > Also, how do to deal with the potential pull of multiple objects from > multiple IMAP stores (which may be adminitered by different > identities)? This is contained within the URLAUTH URL, as long as the submit server can authenticate itself as being authorized to use that URL. > I can certainly posit a case where I use my "home" > submit server but want to pull in an object from a "foreign" IMAP > store to which I have access. That scenario doesn't work with push at all, and clearly was considered outside the scope of Lemonade. Otherwise we wouldn't have had a long push vs. pull debate since push would have been knocked out of consideration. Unfortunately, the removal of anonymous from URLAUTH closes many (but not all) doors on this capability. You can't have it both ways; either you allow arbitrary clients to use a URLAUTH URL or you don't. For the in-scope purposes of Lemonade, the latter sufficed. I too believe that this capability is desirable. But I had to bow to the reality that it's not going to happen at this stage. Lemonade does not require this capability, and having it in there introduces distracting security arguments. > Finally, (perhaps this is documented in URLAUTH), are URLAUTH objects > necessarily single-use? There is no requirement either way, although URLAUTH does have an expiration feature. I don't think that single-use is necessary, and I certainly don't think that it should be mandatory. Nevertheless, if there is concensus to include single-use as an option, I won't oppose it. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 04:11:32 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA00249 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 04:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9GHH-00012V-OT for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 23:27:35 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i324RZNQ003990 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:27:35 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9DRV-0008S8-Cf for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:25:57 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA18429 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DRT-0002N8-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:25:55 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DQe-0002BT-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:25:05 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DPi-00021B-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:24:06 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9AC4-0007fv-LX; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:57:48 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B95Lj-00011G-SF for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:47:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA13956 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B92rh-0006nh-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:08:18 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B92qp-0006id-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:07:24 -0500 Received: from smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu ([128.2.10.82]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B92qG-0006cm-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:06:49 -0500 Received: from LIN1.andrew.cmu.edu (LIN1.andrew.cmu.edu [128.2.6.59]) (user=rjs3 mech=GSSAPI (0 bits)) by smtp2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i31E6mcD017936; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:06:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:06:48 -0500 (EST) From: Rob Siemborski To: Pete Resnick cc: Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Pete Resnick wrote: > >First of all, for this to really be a point attack presumes you know > >when the pull token you want becomes available to the submission > >server. > > Actually, I think what Mike had in mind was that for any reasonably > busy server, there were always going to be a collection of pull > tokens lying around somewhere (in a well known place, depending on > the implementation) waiting to be sent and that an attacker would be > able to grab those. But of course you're right that if you're looking > for a particular piece of data, you'll need a continuous attack. > (Mind you, for a plain old IMAP server where you are looking for a > particular piece of data, you're going to need some time on the > server to search for the data you want, so it's not a simple point > attack in that case either.) > > I guess my question is, if everything else is a wash on this score, > isn't this still a new point vulnerability? I don't believe so -- by this argument, I believe it is reasonable to say that SMTP servers are currently vulnerable to a "point vulnerability" for any of the messages in their queue at a given moment. Likewise, anything that the SMTP server has a token for can be seen as a message "in their queue" (provided that they are, of course, discarding the token after they have the data). -Rob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rob Siemborski | Andrew Systems Group * Research Systems Programmer PGP:0x5CE32FCC | Cyert Hall 207 * rjs3@andrew.cmu.edu * 412.268.7456 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK---- Version: 3.12 GCS/IT/CM/PA d- s+: a-- C++++$ ULS++++$ P+++$ L+++ E W+ N(-) o? K- w-- O- M-- V-- PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP+ t+@ 5+++ X- R@ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++ h+ r- y? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK----- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 04:19:02 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA00623 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 04:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9GZu-0002cH-9F for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 23:46:50 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i324koC9010053 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:46:50 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9DxG-0007qt-M2 for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:58:46 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21859 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DxE-0007c2-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:58:44 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Dw2-0007MH-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:57:34 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Dui-00071B-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:56:08 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ACb-0007oc-4I; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:58:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B8seH-0005qh-QG for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:13:45 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA29091 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:13:41 -0500 (EST) From: ned.freed@mrochek.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8seE-0000vO-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:13:42 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B8sdG-0000sl-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:12:44 -0500 Received: from [209.55.107.55] (helo=mauve.mrochek.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8scJ-0000qR-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 22:11:43 -0500 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01L8DG7OATU80027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:42:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 15:48:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 31 Mar 2004 16:33:47 -0600" To: Pete Resnick Cc: Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Message-id: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > I was supposed to get to this right after I got back from Seoul, but never did. > I had a hallway conversation with Derek Atkins and Mike St. Johns > about security issues in push/pull. The conclusion was that Derek > thought doing push or pull was pretty much even security-wise, while > Mike thought that pull was *less* secure than push. Derek's analysis > pretty much agreed with what's been on the list to date, and he can > elaborate in response to this if he wants. (I've Cc'ed Derek, so he > can speak for himself.) But Mike's argument seemed pretty persuasive > to me (and I seriously tried to argue against it) and he suggested > that I post a synopsis of his argument to the list and let him join > the discussion as he sees fit. I'm afraid I find this entire analysis to be based on a variety of incorrect assumptions and as a result the conclusions it reaches are also incorrect. > There are two parts Mike's argument which I'll call "Point vs. > Continuous Attacks" and "Security Balances". > 1. Point vs. Continuous Attacks > When calculating the cost of attack for any system, one thing you can > look at is whether the attack is a point attack or a continuous > attack. Using his terminology, a continuous attack is one where you > must break into the system you wish to attack and stay on for some > period of time before you can get at the data you are interested in > attacking. I take the canonical case here to be a man-in-the-middle > attack where you listen for traffic over a period of time and make > your attack when the data of interest is available. A point attack is > one where you get in, make the attack immediately, and then leave. > The example here would be breaking in a stealing a file from a known > location on the system and then getting off of the compromised system > immediately. Since continuous attacks take indeterminate amounts of > time to perpetrate, they are often easier to detect and are therefore > harder to accomplish. Point attacks are much harder to defend against. Breaking things down in to the binary cases of point and continuous attacks is a gross oversimplification that leaves out the single most important case: Someone breaks in, changes something in some way, and then leaves. Trojan horses and all sorts of other common attacks fall into this middle category. Indeed, I would claim that these attacks are practically the rule, with point and continuous attacks being the exceptions. The unfortunate reality is that change attacks are almost as difficult as point attacks to detect. (The idea of using backups, checksums, limited access rights, and similar mechanisms to detect or prevent such things is a nice one in theory, but modern systems are so large and complicated and have so many acolites in attendance feeding and washing and making all sorts of changes that they are rarely practical.) I'm not going to bother walking through the various cases of change attacks here, but if you do the analysis I think you'll find that Derek is right and that it ends up being a wash. > Current IMAP servers are of course subject to some point attacks: If > you are able to compromise the IMAP system, you can often get at the > user data immediately and get off of the system without being > noticed. And they are even more subject to change attacks. > Current submission servers are really only subject to > continuous attacks to steal data: You have to compromise the system > and wait for a client to send the data before you can steal the data. They are also subject to change attacks. These range from simple things like adding/deleting an address to/from an alias or inserting a backdoor to allow posting using an assumed identity to tricky stuff like generating a periodic digest of all the messages that match some set of criteria and sending it somewhere. > In a push scenario, each server still has similar vulnerability: The > IMAP server is still subject to point attacks (with the possible > added avenue of the attacker being to push his acquired data through > SUBMIT, for what that's worth) and the submission server is still > subject to continuous attacks. When you consider change attacks you've allowed an IMAP server exploit to be used to compromise future mail people send in various ways. > However, in a pull scenario, Mike argues that submission servers will > now be subject to point attacks: An attacker who gains access to the > submission server will potentially get access to a pull token. Once > stolen, the pull token can then be taken and the attacker can leave > the submission server, able to download the data from the IMAP server > from another machine before the submission server has a chance to > actually get the data. This would make the risk scenario for the > submission server much different than the current state of affairs. First of all, for this to really be a point attack presumes you know when the pull token you want becomes available to the submission server. If you don't know when it will show up (and in many if not most cases you won't) you have to wait for it, making this a continuous attack. And even if you grant that the attacker has some way of devining when a token will become available, this is easily defended against by making the pull token only usable from the submission server. (This can be configured into the IMAP server or it can be coded into the token itself. Or both.) This means the attacker has to perform the attack on the submission server, which in effect converts it into a continuous attack in _all_ cases. When change attacks enter the picture it all turns into a wash. In the pull case the tokens cease to be interesting -- an attacker is better off intercepting the outgoing mail in its entirety than the small subset composed using pull mechanism. (I suppose there's the case of a token issued but then the message submission based on the token fails for some reason, but I don't think this is significant.) > 2. Security Balances > Mike described a simple set of security balances that have to be made > in any system: > Cost of Protection < Cost of Attack > Cost of Attack > Value of Data > Value of Data > Cost of Protection > On any IMAP server now, you protect it according to the above > guidelines. So, the cost of attacking the IMAP server must be greater > than the value of the data on that IMAP server, which must be greater > than the cost of protecting it. Therefore, you protect it (with > passwords, firewalling it off, etc.) to the extent that you can get > that formula to hold true. Different IMAP servers have different > values of the data on them, so each will have different formulas and > the cost of protection will be different for each. (Since submission > servers require continuous attacks to get at data, the cost of > attacks is normally much higher and the cost of protection much lower > than the IMAP servers it might serve.) Submission servers of any sort don't require continous attacks, which reduces the attack costs considerably and changes the equation substantially. > Now you go to introduce the submit mechanism. With push, the > equations stay pretty much the same: Sorry. The cost of the attack may stay the same, but the cost of protection is critically dependent on code complexity and other, similar factors. And the unfortunate reality is that proxies may look simple but in fact are quite complex and hard to get right. And you're adding one of these complex and tricky beasts to your IMAP server. You've just raised the cost of protection substantially. > Whatever the value of the data > on the IMAP server, you protect it to the extent that the protection > is less than the cost of attack and less than the value of the data. > There is an additional piece to protect (the risk that the data will > be available through the submission pipe), but since the data gets to > that submission pipe through the IMAP server, overall the assessment > stays pretty similar. It doesn't. See above. > With pull, things change a bit. With point attacks being a > possibility, They should not be with a properly designed and configured pull system. > the costs of attack drop on submission servers. Since it > is possible for a single submission server to receive submissions > from several IMAP servers, Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. This gets down to implementation details. And you shouldn't be assuming that implementations and configurations of push will be "smart" and those of pull will be "dumb". > it means that you will have to protect the > submission server to value of the data coming from the most valuable > IMAP server. That potentially increases the cost of protection for > the overall system (IMAP+submission) significantly more than with the > push scenario. There's a hidden assumption here that the messages in the store are more valuable to an attacker than the messages someone submits. This may or may not be true - the temporal factor may mean that new messages are hugely more valuable. But even if you asssume the store is where the really valuable data livs, I would contend that the difference in implementation complexity between the two schemes makes this a wash once again. Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 04:19:28 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA00645 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 04:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9Ga1-0002d4-Di for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 23:46:57 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i324kvUs010101 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 23:46:57 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9Dxi-00083V-TJ for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:59:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA21926 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 20:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DxV-0007eX-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:59:01 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9DwQ-0007Qd-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:57:55 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Dv9-00077a-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:56:35 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ACb-0007ok-FI; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:58:21 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B8vE8-0000O8-Am for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:58:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA06202 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8vE5-0003NT-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:58:53 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B8vD9-0003HM-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:57:56 -0500 Received: from dogbert.ihtfp.org ([204.107.200.33] ident=me) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B8vCO-0003Bf-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:57:08 -0500 Received: (from warlord@localhost) by dogbert.ihtfp.org (8.12.9) id i315v5JU024102; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 00:57:05 -0500 To: Pete Resnick Cc: Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> From: Derek Atkins Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:57:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Pete Resnick's message of "Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:44:59 -0600") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1003 (Gnus v5.10.3) Emacs/21.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Pete Resnick writes: > So, is the take away from this message (among other things) that > security-wise, pull and push are really a wash? (More to the point, is > there reason to believe that push is *worse*, security-wise, than > pull?) I certainly do not believe that push is worse, security-wise, than pull. I think there are tradeoffs to be made; push has some benefits over pull, and pull has some benefits over push. IMHO I think pull is a more general model, but there are definite security concerns that need to be addressed (note that I'm NOT saying those concerns don't also exist with push). However, are you at all interested in a general case of combining multiple objects from (potentially) different IMAP stores into a single message? If so, then push really boils down to "pull bolted to ONE of my IMAP servers." FWIW, I can certainly posit a case where I want to forward a reference to a message in a public IMAP store as an attachment to a message relating to something in my personal IMAP store and then save the resulting message into my IMAP outbox. I think push can do this provided the reference is in a public IMAP store, but probably not if it's in a (second) private IMAP store. -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 12:20:51 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19702 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9QbI-0006HD-QV for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:28:57 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i32FSum6024128 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 10:28:56 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9NOD-0003Yw-34 for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:03:15 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA05511 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9NO8-0003j2-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:03:09 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9NN3-0003aP-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:02:01 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9NML-0003SN-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:01:17 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9KC2-0003K6-N0; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:38:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9F2z-0003xJ-W8 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:08:46 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA29142 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:08:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9F2w-0002Jt-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:08:43 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9F24-0002DS-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:07:48 -0500 Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net ([204.127.202.64]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9F1I-00022f-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:07:00 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.103] (pcp05307270pcs.wanarb01.mi.comcast.net[68.42.70.186]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040402030616016003ef20e>; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 03:06:26 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: lemonade@ietf.org, "'Mark Crispin'" From: Nathaniel Borenstein Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 22:06:21 -0500 To: "Glenn Parsons" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have any dog in this hunt, but wouldn't a telephone conference be a reasonable middle ground in between the mailing list and a physical meeting? _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 17:08:39 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA06644 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9VxD-0004Ah-5O for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:12:07 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i32LBtQ3016036 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:11:55 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9SVU-0000kQ-AE for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:31:04 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA20138 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9SVS-0001uy-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:31:02 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9SUX-0001nx-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:30:05 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9SUB-0001hB-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:29:43 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9QdL-0006Yt-IC; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:31:03 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9NcV-0005E3-2l for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:17:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA05933 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9NcU-0005bf-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:17:58 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9NbT-0005TW-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:16:56 -0500 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Nb6-0005MO-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:16:33 -0500 Received: from isode.com (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (with SMTP (internal)) with ESMTPA; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 13:15:53 +0100 Message-ID: <406D5973.7010809@isode.com> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:15:47 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathaniel Borenstein CC: Glenn Parsons , lemonade@ietf.org, "'Mark Crispin'" Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: > I don't have any dog in this hunt, but wouldn't a telephone conference > be a reasonable middle ground in between the mailing list and a > physical meeting? I would prefer this as well. Alexey __________________________________________ Isode Limited, http://www.isode.com IETF standard related pages: http://www.melnikov.ca/mel/devel/Links.html Personal Home Page: http://www.melnikov.ca __________________________________________ _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 17:19:39 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07985 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9X08-0000E8-NS for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:19:12 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i32MJ0Lq000872 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:19:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9X08-0000Dg-EA for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:19:00 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07927 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9X06-0007Jz-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:18:58 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Wxj-0006lM-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:16:32 -0500 Received: from [65.246.255.50] (helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Wx0-0006bI-01 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:15:46 -0500 Received: from optimus22.ietf.org ([132.151.6.22] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1B9WuS-0000ri-Ko for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:13:08 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9WuS-0007bl-05; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:13:08 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9Wts-0007Xg-RS for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:12:32 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07450 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Wtq-000600-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:12:30 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Wsf-0005hS-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:11:18 -0500 Received: from joy.songbird.com ([208.184.79.7]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Wqy-00053I-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:09:32 -0500 Received: from bbfujip (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i32M8vd15805; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:08:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:08:39 -0800 From: Dave Crocker Reply-To: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1548941486.20040402140839@brandenburg.com> To: "Glenn Parsons" CC: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,PRIORITY_NO_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glenn, GP> My suggestion is for a one day face-to-face meeting: GP> Wednesday, May 5th GP> Nortel Networks Campus GP> Richardson, TX Let me suggest a modification. Having a classic, all-day schedule requires most folks to stay one or two nights. If you start the meeting at 2pm (maybe 1:30) and go to around 7, and then meet some portion of the next day, you get significantly more meeting time, and folks stay exactly one night. Of course, this model only works for Mid-west US venues and North American attendees. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA , _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 17:25:05 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08976 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9X5Z-0001rR-W6 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:24:38 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i32MObBh007151 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:24:37 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9X5Z-0001qf-Mo for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:24:37 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08784 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9X5X-0000Ys-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:24:35 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9X0V-0007OH-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:19:24 -0500 Received: from [65.246.255.50] (helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Wxq-0006bI-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:16:38 -0500 Received: from optimus22.ietf.org ([132.151.6.22] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1B9Wqg-0000V6-GN for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:09:14 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9VxT-0004JA-2z; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:12:11 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9SPj-0008Nl-UE for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:25:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA19955 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9SPi-0001CR-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:25:06 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9SOs-000152-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:24:15 -0500 Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.4]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9SO1-0000wu-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:23:21 -0500 Received: from shiva0.cac.washington.edu (shiva0.cac.washington.edu [140.142.37.170]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i32HNDgX001614; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:23:13 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva0.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i32HNDU5024059; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:23:13 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 09:23:13 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Alexey Melnikov cc: Nathaniel Borenstein , Glenn Parsons , lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting In-Reply-To: <406D5973.7010809@isode.com> Message-ID: References: <406D5973.7010809@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: >> I don't have any dog in this hunt, but wouldn't a telephone conference be >> a reasonable middle ground in between the mailing list and a physical >> meeting? > I would prefer this as well. As would I. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 20:31:55 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17292 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 20:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9a0M-0001Y8-8w for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:31:26 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i331VQQV005957 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 20:31:26 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9a0L-0001Y0-Fk for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:31:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17284 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 20:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9a0J-0002YC-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:31:23 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ZzK-0002Qu-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:30:23 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Zz7-0002K1-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:30:09 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9Zyz-0000yx-9J; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:30:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ZyJ-0000uE-VQ for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:29:20 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17193 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 20:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ZyH-0002JI-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:29:17 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ZxN-0002Cd-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:28:21 -0500 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Zwu-000252-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 20:27:52 -0500 Received: from sabrina.qualcomm.com (sabrina.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.150]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i331RKU9025320; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (loud.qualcomm.com [129.46.74.63]) by sabrina.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i331RFUS003200; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:27:18 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209DB1A3E8@zoe.office.snowshore.com> References: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209DB1A3E8@zoe.office.snowshore.com> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X v6.1a Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:27:13 -0800 To: "Eric Burger" , "IETF LEMONADE (E-mail)" From: Randall Gellens Subject: Re: [lemonade] FW: Lemonade Minutes from IETF 59 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b26 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 At 10:27 AM -0500 3/29/04, Eric Burger wrote: > Any comments? We have to submit by 4/1. > Open Discussion > - Notes lost. I have some notes that I could supply. Also, as I recall, there were very detailed jabber notes. Can't they be used ? -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- Nice guys finish last, but we get to sleep in. --Evan Davis _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 21:36:00 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19470 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9b0N-0000Sc-Uj for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:35:32 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i332ZVQf001771 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:35:31 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9b0N-0000ST-OI for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:35:31 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19466 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9b0L-0003KM-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:35:29 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9azV-0003Cp-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:34:38 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ayz-000345-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:34:05 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ayu-0007xI-TH; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:34:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ayK-0007pQ-3m for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:33:24 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19369 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ayH-00031I-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:33:21 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9axL-0002qf-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:32:23 -0500 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9awN-0002Z9-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:31:23 -0500 Received: from magus.qualcomm.com (magus.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.148]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i332UqU9027672; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (loud.qualcomm.com [129.46.74.63]) by magus.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i332UmrZ000133; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:30:49 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X v6.1a Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:30:47 -0800 To: Lemonade From: Randall Gellens Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation Cc: Ned Freed , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b26 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 At 9:00 AM -0800 4/1/04, Mark Crispin wrote: > In the new URLAUTH document, we have removed the client-generated > URL functionality as being unneeded for Lemonade, so all URLs are > created by SIGNURL. That requires an extra round-trip per message (or message segment), doesn't it? (It saves the client having to sign the URL, but with symmetric algorithms that shouldn't be too bad.) Although if COMPOSE is being used, I suppose the client could pipeline the SIGNURL to the COMPOSE, and thus not have to wait for an extra round-trip. At 4:33 PM -0600 3/31/04, Pete Resnick wrote: > submission servers will now be subject to point attacks: An > attacker who gains access to the submission server will potentially > get access to a pull token. I'd expect in common configurations that submit servers would connect to IMAP servers and consume the tokens very quickly, so tokens would have an extremely short life, making this a continuous instead of a point attack. At 9:00 AM -0800 4/1/04, Mark Crispin wrote: > However, I note that there is a vulnerability in push in that an > attacker which compromises an IMAP server now has the keys to a > submit server. These days, it appear that the greater security > issue is a bad guy acquiring access to a trusted SMTP-injection > point that will get around spam blockers. This point tends to be > overlooked as most people think of SMTP as being unauthenticated. > That isn't the case with the SMTP engines operated by the more > vocal pull advocates, so there may be a cultural difference that > blocks communication in this regard. This is an interesting point. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- The ignorance of how to use new knowledge stockpiles exponentially. --Marshall McLuhan _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 21:48:55 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19914 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9bCt-0005Ew-K9 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:48:27 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i332mRIG020140 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:48:27 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9bCt-0005El-Ez for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:48:27 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19892 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9bCq-0004wN-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:48:24 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9bC5-0004ox-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:47:38 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9bBT-0004hX-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:46:59 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9bBV-0004er-3c; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:47:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9bB0-0004Yo-E0 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:46:30 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA19826 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 21:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9bAx-0004ga-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:46:27 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9bA0-0004YU-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:45:29 -0500 Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.4]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9b9I-0004Qp-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 21:44:44 -0500 Received: from shiva0.cac.washington.edu (shiva0.cac.washington.edu [140.142.37.170]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i332ihWP025016; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:44:43 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva0.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i332ihQF024785; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:44:43 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 18:44:43 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Randall Gellens cc: Lemonade , Ned Freed , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Randall Gellens wrote: >> In the new URLAUTH document, we have removed the client-generated URL >> functionality as being unneeded for Lemonade, so all URLs are created by >> SIGNURL. > That requires an extra round-trip per message (or message segment), doesn't > it? (It saves the client having to sign the URL, but with symmetric > algorithms that shouldn't be too bad.) Yes. Although I believe that client-generated signatures are useful and desirable, they are not needed for the purposes of Lemonade and they create a distracting security issue. >> submission servers will now be subject to point attacks: An attacker who >> gains access to the submission server will potentially get access to a >> pull token. > I'd expect in common configurations that submit servers would connect to IMAP > servers and consume the tokens very quickly, so tokens would have an > extremely short life, making this a continuous instead of a point attack. More importantly, the attacker must not only gain access to the submit server and the pull tokens on the submit server. The attacker must *also* gain access to the authentication credentials used by the submit server to authenticate it as such to the IMAP server. The pull tokens are only usable by an entity which has those credentials. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 13:20:28 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28900 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9pkO-00075C-4A for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:20:00 -0500 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i33IK0DF027215 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:20:00 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9pkN-00074s-Rc for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:19:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28894 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9pkM-0000tT-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:19:58 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9pjN-0000ng-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:18:58 -0500 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9piZ-0000hh-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:18:07 -0500 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9piT-0006lF-8M; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:18:01 -0500 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9phW-0006ia-B9 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:17:02 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA28822 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9phU-0000b6-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:17:00 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9pgb-0000UY-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:16:05 -0500 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.58]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9pfr-0000GQ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:15:19 -0500 Received: from magus.qualcomm.com (magus.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.148]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i33IElV2029352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 10:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (vpn-10-50-16-74.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.74]) by magus.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i33IEdrZ003884 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2004 10:14:45 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X v6.1a Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 09:59:37 -0800 To: lemonade@ietf.org From: Randall Gellens Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b26 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 At 10:06 PM -0500 3/31/04, Glenn Parsons wrote: > I am hoping the debate will happen before this meeting on the mailing list. So the idea is to debate and reach rough consensus on push-vs-pull on the mailing list, then meet face to face to progress specific proposals and prepare drafts, so that they can be submitted for WGLC in advance of San Diego? If so, I'd support this, as I want to get this work done as quickly as possible. I'd even suggest that we may have rough consensus now, on pull. I've seen a number of detailed, well-thought-out calls to use pull, many from implementors, and very few calls for push. Am I being overly optimistic? I'm available to work on specific proposals as well as the resulting draft. As to mailing list versus conference call versus face to face, I think the trade-offs are clear: mailing list - very convenient; no need to travel; can stay on normal sleep schedule - does not require that everyone participate at same time; easy to schedule - can be very slow - off-line collaboration between participants done in separate emails, calls, visits conference call - no need to travel - does require everyone to participate at same time; moderately difficult to schedule - may need to adjust sleep schedule depending on specific time - off-line collaboration between participants very limited and difficult - works best with small number of people - best limited to short duration (< 2 hours) but can be repeated on different days face to face - requires travel - requires everyone to participate at same time; difficult to schedule - usually requires adjustment to sleep schedule - off-line collaboration between participants done during breaks I'd be happy to participate in any of these in order to advance this work. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind. --Thomas Hewitt Key, 1799-1875 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Apr 4 10:18:09 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01033 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BA8RS-0004hq-2L for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:17:42 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i34EHgL5018091 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:17:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BA8RR-0004hi-So for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:17:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA00986 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BA8RP-0004w5-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:17:39 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BA8QS-0004qf-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:16:41 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BA8Pv-0004lA-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:16:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BA8Pp-00041V-FD; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:16:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BA8PY-0003xR-UQ for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:15:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA00807 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 10:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BA8PW-0004kV-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:15:42 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BA8Od-0004f0-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:14:47 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BA8OE-0004Ys-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:14:22 -0400 Received: from isode.com (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (with SMTP (internal)) with ESMTPA; Sun, 4 Apr 2004 15:13:48 +0100 Message-ID: <4070181A.6080408@isode.com> Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 15:13:46 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randall Gellens CC: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randall Gellens wrote: > As to mailing list versus conference call versus face to face, I think > the trade-offs are clear: > > mailing list > - very convenient; no need to travel; can stay on normal sleep schedule > - does not require that everyone participate at same time; easy to > schedule > - can be very slow > - off-line collaboration between participants done in separate emails, > calls, visits > > conference call > - no need to travel > - does require everyone to participate at same time; moderately > difficult to schedule > - may need to adjust sleep schedule depending on specific time > - off-line collaboration between participants very limited and difficult > - works best with small number of people > - best limited to short duration (< 2 hours) but can be repeated on > different days > > face to face > - requires travel > - requires everyone to participate at same time; difficult to schedule > - usually requires adjustment to sleep schedule > - off-line collaboration between participants done during breaks MARID WG is also practicing weekly Jabber sessions. Alexey __________________________________________ Isode Limited, http://www.isode.com IETF standard related pages: http://www.melnikov.ca/mel/devel/Links.html Personal Home Page: http://www.melnikov.ca __________________________________________ _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 09:43:17 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00525 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNG-0001yE-5G for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35DgosD007572 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNF-0001xz-Pp for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00453 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUND-0006gx-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:47 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUMJ-0006WR-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:53 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAULe-0006NG-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAULW-0001Lf-KV; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B98Le-00033y-AC for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:59:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA27871 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:59:18 -0500 (EST) From: ned.freed@mrochek.com Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B98LR-0003fg-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:59:21 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B98KZ-0003ap-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:58:29 -0500 Received: from [209.55.107.55] (helo=mauve.mrochek.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B98K9-0003VP-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:58:01 -0500 Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01L8DWEC1PF40027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 11:57:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:55:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:44:59 -0600" To: Pete Resnick Cc: Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Message-id: <01L8EY979FGE0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > > > In a push scenario, each server still has similar vulnerability: > > > The IMAP server is still subject to point attacks (with the > > > possible added avenue of the attacker being to push his acquired > > > data through SUBMIT, for what that's worth) and the submission > > > server is still subject to continuous attacks. > > When you consider change attacks you've allowed an IMAP server > > exploit to be used to compromise future mail people send in various > > ways. > Are you saying here that a push-enabled IMAP server has the new > exploit of a change attack which uses the sending mechanism? More or less. The IMAP server becomes a single point of attack, and that's a significanly larger issue when change attacks are factored in. > That's > sort of what I was referring to when I said "possible added avenue" > (though, admittedly I wasn't thinking of change attacks), but I get > the feeling you're talking about something different. Not really. > > > However, in a pull scenario, Mike argues that submission servers > > > will now be subject to point attacks: An attacker who gains access > > > to the submission server will potentially get access to a pull > > > token. Once stolen, the pull token can then be taken and the > > > attacker can leave the submission server, able to download the data > > > from the IMAP server from another machine before the submission > > > server has a chance to actually get the data. This would make the > > > risk scenario for the submission server much different than the > > > current state of affairs. > > First of all, for this to really be a point attack presumes you know > > when the pull token you want becomes available to the submission > > server. > Actually, I think what Mike had in mind was that for any reasonably > busy server, there were always going to be a collection of pull > tokens lying around somewhere (in a well known place, depending on > the implementation) Unless I'm misunderstanding something here unconditional deferral of token expansion strikes me as a hugely nonobvious and entirely suboptimal way to implement pull on a submission server. I would expect many pull tokens to be dealt with during the SMTP session, with the result that the tokens themselves never appear anywhere but in process memory somewhere, and even those will be there for only a very brief period of time. Only when token resolution has to be deferred for a protracted interval for some reason will there be a bunch of them lying around. But guess what? All these tokens give you is access to stuff that's going to end up in an outgoing mail queue in fairly short order. The outgoing mail queue on a submission server strikes me as a far more obvious and interesting target for a point attack, as do the logs of messages sent and received (very useful for traffic analysis). > waiting to be sent and that an attacker would be > able to grab those. But of course you're right that if you're looking > for a particular piece of data, you'll need a continuous attack. A change attack is far more likely in this case. Indeed, given the fact that many MTAs now support fairly sophisticated message intercept capabilities (thanks to various government mandates), change attacks have gotten a heck of a lot easier in many cases - an attacker can simply make use of facilities the MTA provides and goes out of its way to hide. And the trend is definitely towards such features becoming the exception, not the rule. If you want to worry real security issues, worry about this. I know I do... > (Mind you, for a plain old IMAP server where you are looking for a > particular piece of data, you're going to need some time on the > server to search for the data you want, so it's not a simple point > attack in that case either.) > I guess my question is, if everything else is a wash on this score, > isn't this still a new point vulnerability? Yes, but that's like saying that a 100 mile and 1 inch race is longer than a 100 mile race. An obscure and not terribly effective new attack isn't interesting when there are so many obvious and terribly effective old attacks around. > > And even if you grant that the attacker has some way of devining > > when a token will become available, this is easily defended against > > by making the pull token only usable from the submission server. > > (This can be configured into the IMAP server or it can be coded into > > the token itself. Or both.) > By "configured into the IMAP server", do you mean "only allow pull > tokens to be used from a particular IP address" or something to that > effect? Yes. > With regard to "coded into the token itself": My understanding of the > way the tokens were designed (and the reason they were going to be so > handy for all sorts of things) was that they were going to be > authorization tokens without authentication credentials. If we put > something into the token that indicates which particular machine they > can be used from, aren't we going to also be in the business of > having the MUA figure out which submission server it's talking to and > which IP address or other identity is going to have to be embedded in > the token? First, the MUA pretty much has to know what submission server it uses in order to send mail, so I fail to see why it would be difficult to provide this information to the IMAP server. But even if this is a hard problem for some reason I don't understand, the identity doesn't have to be bound that tightly. A service provider could limit the tokens its servers issue to the submission servers it provides. Yes, this locks the user in to not being able to use the submission server of their choice when they use pull, but it is still more flexible than push, where the the submission server and IMAP server are by definition one and the same. > > When change attacks enter the picture it all turns into a wash. In > > the pull case the tokens cease to be interesting -- an attacker is > > better off intercepting the outgoing mail in its entirety than the > > small subset composed using pull mechanism. > At least for the case of the clients I envision who are using the > IMAP server to store the outgoing message (i.e., using APPEND or > CATENATE to the "sent-messages" box and pulling from there), all of > their messages are going to use the pull mechanism. (More on this at > the end of the message.) So I'm not sure I understand what you mean > by the above. My point is that with a change attack I might as well intercept all the mail someone sends without worrying about the underlying mechanisms they use to compose the message. You're reinforcing the sides of the barn while leaving the front door open. > > > With push, the equations stay pretty much the same: > > Sorry. The cost of the attack may stay the same, but the cost of > > protection is critically dependent on code complexity and other, > > similar factors. And the unfortunate reality is that proxies may > > look simple but in fact are quite complex and hard to get right. And > > you're adding one of these complex and tricky beasts to your IMAP > > server. You've just raised the cost of protection substantially. > I've heard the word "proxy" used in this context before, and I've > been told some things are proxies and some things aren't. So the > first question I've got is, what counts as a proxy? Simple: A proxy is something that acts as both a connection starting and ending point but which falls short of being a full fledged transfer agent in a relay chain. Push submission implemented in an IMAP server by speaking SMTP or SMTP submit out the back end is one sort of proxy. > I take it the > "bolt sendmail onto imapd" is a proxy in the worst possible way, > right? Something that forked a sendmail process and spoke to it using whatever protocol would be a proxy, yes. Actually building a full fledged MTA into the IMAP server would not be a proxy. > Is an SMTP submit client in your average MUA a proxy? No, because it isn't a connection endpoint. > What does and doesn't constitute one of these things? The issue is less one of nailing down what is or isn't a proxy than it is one of the significant and nonobvious complexity involved. > Second, I keep hearing repeated that these are complex and tricky > beasts. Maybe the answer to the above will make it perfectly clear, > but what is it that's complex and hard to get right with these > proxies? I honestly don't know why they are hard to get right and why they always end up being so much more complicated than you'd think they need to be. All I can tell is that they are and do. I have implemented several proxies myself and worked with many written by other people, and I can assure you that problems are the rule, not the exception. For example, when I'm presented with some sort of SMTP glitch for analysis (which happens a couple of times a month on average) the odds are high that it is caused by a misbehaving proxy. (Next in line are problems caused by path MTU glitches, and they are a _distant_ second.) Here's a test question for you that may help illustrate what i mean. Push submission in an IMAP server needs to provide a way to (a) Discover and (b) Tunnel through the various SMTP extension the SMTP server on the other side supports. But there's one particular extension parameter that has to be blocked and not allowed to tunnel. Quickly: Can you tell me, without scanning a bunch of documents, what that parameter is? > Again, perhaps I'm just missing the referent, but I'd be > much happier if this argument didn't come down to "Trust me, I know > about these proxies, and they're hard, so don't worry your pretty > little head about this." I am feeling a bit like that's the answer > I've been getting at times. I'd also be happier if it didn't come down to a matter of trust. But short of both writing and widely deploying your own proxy as well as working extensively with ones written by other people, I don't know how you'd ever learn this. It isn't the intuitively obvious answer, but it is the correct answer neverhtless. > > > Since it is possible for a single submission server to receive > > > submissions from several IMAP servers, > > Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. This gets down to implementation > > details. And you shouldn't be assuming that implementations and > > configurations of push will be "smart" and those of pull will be > > "dumb". > I'm not sure I see where I have made the assumption that push > installations will be "smart" and pull installations will be "dumb". > If you think I have made that assumption, please point it out more > explicitly. (I'm willing to admit that I might be unconsciously > holding that sort of view, but I don't see where.) You're assuming that push implementors will get a compoent that appears simple but which experience has shown to be quite complex and nasty right while pull implementors won't implement even the most basic and obvious precautions. That's "smart" versus "dumb" in my book. > > > it means that you will have to protect the submission server to > > > value of the data coming from the most valuable IMAP server. That > > > potentially increases the cost of protection for the overall system > > > (IMAP+submission) significantly more than with the push scenario. > >There's a hidden assumption here that the messages in the store are > >more valuable to an attacker than the messages someone submits. This > >may or may not be true - the temporal factor may mean that new > >messages are hugely more valuable. > Actually, the assumption that I've been making is that in the > use-case that we're designing this for (low-resource clients), *all* > data will be in the store. I think this is a bad assumption to make. A very significant fraction of messages are always going to be simple one or two liners with no attachments and such and hence no need to perform any sort of compositing. I suppose an implementation could compose all messages using CONCATENATE and then use push or pull to submit them, but I doubt if the added costs involved in using this approach will make users happy. > In the push case, that assumption is > obvious. But even in the pull case, to this point we've talked about > either (a) pulling completed messages from the IMAP store or (b) > storing sent messages back into the IMAP store (with some sort of Fcc > function). In either case, the IMAP store is where to be to get the > good data when you want it if you're an attacker. I disagree. > > But even if you asssume the store is where the really valuable data > > livs, I would contend that the difference in implementation > > complexity between the two schemes makes this a wash once again. > So, is the take away from this message (among other things) that > security-wise, pull and push are really a wash? (More to the point, > is there reason to believe that push is *worse*, security-wise, than > pull?) My position is that both pull and push have issues. Push is better in some ways, pull is better than others. And there are some real issues common to both. Thus far this discussion hasn't really touched on the significant security differences between the two, which only start to show up when you look at details like signatures and encryption. But if you assign reasonable weights to all the issues I think you'll find they are fairly close - certainly close enough that it is impossible to declare a clear winner on the basis of security concerns alone. Chris and I have done most of the detailed security analysis that's needed here, but we simply haven't had time to finish up the draft. And the ways things are going right now I'm not hugely optimistic we're going to be able to get to this for a while. Ned _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 09:43:18 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00527 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNG-0001yF-5I for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35Dgofb007573 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNF-0001xy-2A for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00450 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUND-0006gs-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:47 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUMI-0006WI-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:51 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAULe-0006NF-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAULW-0001Ln-Rh; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9WDE-00019A-So for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:28:28 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01381 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9WDD-0004Zm-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:28:27 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9WCL-0004OQ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:27:33 -0500 Received: from audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.253]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9WBH-00044G-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:26:28 -0500 Received: from pcp06944131pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net ([69.138.26.203] helo=STJOHNS-LAPTOP2.mindspring.com) by audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 3.36 #4) id 1B9WAo-00080w-00; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:25:58 -0800 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040402160116.0300b7b0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: mstjohns@mindspring.com@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:26:47 -0500 To: Lemonade From: Michael StJohns Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation Cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , Derek Atkins In-Reply-To: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-ELNK-Trace: 9f6ded143da542dc9c7f779228e2f6aeda0071232e20db4d4519fea834d9e19af84b1735f5e7cfdc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Hi - I've come to the conclusion I should stay out of the hallway at IETFs...:-) To boil down my discussions with Pete & Derek - my observation was simply that if you concentrate things of value in a certain location, you increase the possibility of attack and the value to the attacker if they succeed. With respect to push versus pull I asked the question of how many pull tokens would either pass through or be resident at a pull server. Assuming the tokens become invalid when used (tokens are good for one pull), then the question of how many are at any given server at any given time (as opposed to having passed through) becomes the interesting question when trying to figure vulnerability/value. A pull server that handles only one or two of these over a period of a half hour is obviously not a big target - EXCEPT for specific high value files (that's where Ned's "change*" attack comes in). A pull server that may have up to 100-10000 requests queued at a point in time (and I don't know if that's a reasonable or unreasonable number) becomes an interesting target regardless of any lack of prior knowledge about the files. If the tokens are only valid for a specific puller (e.g. something like Kerberos tokens) then they have no value at the intermediate point and the whole argument relative to push vs pull becomes somewhat moot. If I understood what Mark was saying in his email, that's probably now the case**. * Change attack - again, assuming the tokens become worthless once used, the change attack (assuming a pull system) has to use the tokens fairly quickly after they're stolen. When the pull server attempts to pull the files as well and fails (because the token is worthless) provides a pretty detectable indication you've been compromised. A change attack for this system becomes a special case of a point attack. Best use of this one would be to target specific high value files on a low pull rate system - a "sleeper" attack. **DISCLAIMER - I haven't read the documents and don't have the nuanced understanding of how the protocol will actually do things. My comments to Pete/Derek were based on the information provided in the conversation which described the general mechanisms. Later, Mike _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 09:43:19 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00556 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNH-0001ya-SZ for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:51 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35Dgp92007595 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNH-0001yQ-IK for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00458 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUNF-0006hA-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:49 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUML-0006Wa-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:54 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAULe-0006NH-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAULX-0001MD-2q; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9UZJ-0008Pn-9x for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:43:09 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA24423 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9UZG-0003ZS-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:43:06 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9UYN-0003RH-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:42:11 -0500 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.58]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9UXV-0003AJ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:41:17 -0500 Received: from crowley.qualcomm.com (crowley.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i32JehV2021175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:40:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.227.161] (carbuncle.qualcomm.com [129.46.227.161]) by crowley.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i32Jeb3P026467; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:40:38 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: hardie@mage.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 11:40:37 -0800 To: Mark Crispin , Pete Resnick From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation Cc: Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 At 9:00 AM -0800 04/01/2004, Mark Crispin wrote: >In the new URLAUTH document, we have removed the client-generated >URL functionality as being unneeded for Lemonade, so all URLs are >created by SIGNURL. We have furthermore removed anonymous signed >URLs as also being unneeded for Lemonade. Last but not least, the >only current mechanism is INTERNAL. I've asked the author of 2396bis to take a look at this; I've had no reply yet, but I'm hopeful of getting a review of this from one or more URI experts in the fairly short term. In some previous discussions it sounded as if there would be no problem with using this mechanism as a token generator for "pawn tickets" which were *not* tied to the URI (either for this use if there is some URI syntax issue or some other uses). Do these changes affect that possibility? regards, Ted Hardie _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 09:43:20 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00583 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNJ-0001zP-Ka for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:53 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35Dgr1N007643 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNJ-0001zC-FM for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00469 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUNH-0006hT-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:51 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUMO-0006X6-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:57 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAULf-0006NO-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAULX-0001MR-8r; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9UwZ-0008Ai-Ra for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:07:12 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25710 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 15:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9UwW-0006y1-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:07:08 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Uvc-0006pk-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:06:12 -0500 Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9Uuq-0006iF-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:05:24 -0500 Received: from shiva0.cac.washington.edu (shiva0.cac.washington.edu [140.142.37.170]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i32K5DMJ013587; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:05:18 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva0.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i32K5Dh0032331; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:05:13 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:05:13 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Ted Hardie cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Ted Hardie wrote: > In some previous discussions it > sounded as if there would be no problem with using this mechanism > as a token generator for "pawn tickets" which were *not* tied to > the URI (either for this use if there is some URI syntax issue or some other > uses). > Do these changes affect that possibility? That possibility still exists. I haven't gone down that route in the hope that it will not be necessary; I consider it to be a cosmetic measure that adds needless complexity with no real gain in security. But I also understand that cosmetics can make the difference between something happening and not happening. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 09:43:23 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00628 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNL-0001zf-Jz for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:55 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35Dgt2G007659 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNL-0001zS-Ei for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:55 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00474 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUNJ-0006hg-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:53 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUMR-0006XV-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:00 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAULi-0006NQ-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAULW-0001LX-D0; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B95it-0001b5-Nq for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:11:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA22278 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B95ii-00028E-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:11:12 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B95hk-00020r-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:10:13 -0500 Received: from dogbert.ihtfp.org ([204.107.200.33] ident=me) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B95gn-0001vT-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:09:13 -0500 Received: (from warlord@localhost) by dogbert.ihtfp.org (8.12.9) id i31H9BMK024600; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:09:11 -0500 To: Mark Crispin Cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> From: Derek Atkins Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:09:10 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Mark Crispin's message of "Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:00:58 -0800 (PST)") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.1003 (Gnus v5.10.3) Emacs/21.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Mark Crispin writes: > In order for a URLAUTH URL to be used, the client to the IMAP server > (the submit server) must authenticate itself to the IMAP server. This > authentication is also unavailable to an attacker. Is the authentication of the submit server somehow tied to the URLAUTH object? If so, how? If not, then I don't see how this helps (except knowing which submit server was used to grab an object via URLAUTH). Also, how do to deal with the potential pull of multiple objects from multiple IMAP stores (which may be adminitered by different identities)? I can certainly posit a case where I use my "home" submit server but want to pull in an object from a "foreign" IMAP store to which I have access. Finally, (perhaps this is documented in URLAUTH), are URLAUTH objects necessarily single-use? > I think that this addresses most, if not all, of Mike's issues. I'm not sure it does. The first question certainly relates to one of Mike's concerns. -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 09:57:04 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01385 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUaa-0004ZQ-TG for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:56:37 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35DuaHa017566 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:56:36 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUaa-0004ZF-Op for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:56:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01356 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUaY-0000ck-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:56:34 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUZj-0000WI-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:55:43 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUZ1-0000PC-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:54:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUZ2-00044i-Hk; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:55:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUYY-0003ux-3c for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:54:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA01239 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUYV-0000MT-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:54:27 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUXa-0000EH-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:53:31 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUWf-00000L-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:52:33 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 15822; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:49:53 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:52:03 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209DB1A44E@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: PLEASE Subscribe if you are posting... Thread-Index: AcQbFScIGqNuMHajSomVDFwpFWAumw== From: "Eric Burger" To: "IETF LEMONADE (E-mail)" Cc: , , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [lemonade] PLEASE Subscribe if you are posting... Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We have had a spate of legitimate folks that are posting good commentary = to the list. Unfortunately, your poor list admin has to troll through buckets of spam = to get to postings from non-list-members to approve them so they show = up. A good sign is that lots of people are contributing. The bad news is = that when one hits reply-all, and there are a bunch of recipients on the = list, the mail system also considers that to be spam. I hope I have cleared out the backlog. My apologies if your message was = lost due to your humble list admin's lack of a coherent Bayesian filter = :-) Please, please, please: 1. If you are not a list member, but want to post, and would like to see = your posting appear with less than 1-2 week latency (!), please join the = list. You can feel free to set your list options to "no mail" if you = don't want to receive regular mailings from the list. 2. If you are a list member, please trim your To: and Cc: lists. = Everyone on the list will get a copy of the message! Thank you, and see you in May. -- - Eric _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 10:30:06 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00564 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNI-0001yr-L5 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:52 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35Dgq54007611 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:52 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNI-0001yg-AX for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00461 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUNG-0006hJ-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUMN-0006Wq-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:55 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAULf-0006NK-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAULX-0001Mi-Fl; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9XVK-0002Ej-H8 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:51:14 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10712 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 17:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9XVH-0004eD-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:51:12 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9XUL-0004Wr-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:50:14 -0500 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9XTS-0004JP-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:49:18 -0500 Received: from magus.qualcomm.com (magus.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.148]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i32MmeU9015360; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:48:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.227.161] (carbuncle.qualcomm.com [129.46.227.161]) by magus.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i32MmXrZ014501; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:48:34 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: hardie@mage.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 14:48:32 -0800 To: Mark Crispin From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation Cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 At 12:05 PM -0800 04/02/2004, Mark Crispin wrote: >On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Ted Hardie wrote: >>In some previous discussions it >>sounded as if there would be no problem with using this mechanism >>as a token generator for "pawn tickets" which were *not* tied to >>the URI (either for this use if there is some URI syntax issue or >>some other uses). >>Do these changes affect that possibility? > >That possibility still exists. I haven't gone down that route in >the hope that it will not be necessary; I consider it to be a >cosmetic measure that adds needless complexity with no real gain in >security. But I also understand that cosmetics can make the >difference between something happening and not happening. The intended gain would not be for security, but to ensure that the behavior of URI parsers would not have unintended interactions with this mechanism, There is a reasonably larger number of URI libraries in the wild; they have no knowledge of this intended use of URIs. If we can preserve correct operation by splitting these functions, it may well be the right thing to do. I look forward to a review by Roy to indicate his thoughts on this; if he is not able to give it adequate time, I'll arrange for the review by one of the other authors. Ted Hardie _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 10:30:09 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00569 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNJ-0001z7-1x for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:53 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i35DgrM5007627 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:53 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAUNI-0001yw-Sw for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA00465 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2004 09:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUNG-0006hO-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:42:50 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BAUMN-0006Wy-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:56 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BAULf-0006NM-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BAULX-0001NK-O0; Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:41:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B9ZOX-0003ai-RE for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:52:21 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA15757 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 19:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ZOV-0004tg-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:52:20 -0500 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ZNb-0004mO-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:51:23 -0500 Received: from mxout3.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.166]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1B9ZNE-0004fH-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 19:51:00 -0500 Received: from shiva0.cac.washington.edu (shiva0.cac.washington.edu [140.142.37.170]) by mxout3.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i330oxFo029153; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:50:59 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva0.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i330owEn020233; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:50:58 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:50:58 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Ted Hardie cc: Pete Resnick , Ned Freed , Lemonade , Michael StJohns , Derek Atkins Subject: Re: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Ted Hardie wrote: > The intended gain would not be for security, but to ensure that the > behavior of URI parsers would not have unintended interactions > with this mechanism, There is a reasonably larger number of > URI libraries in the wild; they have no knowledge of this intended > use of URIs. If we can preserve correct operation by splitting these > functions, > it may well be the right thing to do. Ah, I understand now. The issue was presented to me as being "for security". I don't see how it will make a difference, since the signature is deterministic. Any effort to change the URI in any way will render the signature invalid whether or not it is in the URI. I've also noted quite a bit of HTTP URL usage (e.g. my bank) that does the same sort of thing. So, given that there is precedent *and* that these are IMAP URLs (which are unlikely to ever be processed by one of these URI libraries), I think that we're OK without it. My own agenda is that a potential non-Lemonade use for these URLs would be broken if the signature isn't in the URL. As this is non-Lemonade, it isn't really a concern for the WG. On the other hand, the use that I'm thinking of may stimulate implementation and deployment of the URLAUTH functionality, which in turn would benefit Lemonade use (since a necessary feature would be more widely available). -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 02:44:45 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA17708 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 02:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BB6nJ-0006DC-Ux for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 02:44:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i376iHmb023875 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 02:44:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BB6nI-0006C6-Gw for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 02:44:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA17682 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 02:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BB6nE-00068T-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 02:44:12 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BB5wq-0005hi-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 01:50:06 -0400 Received: from [65.246.255.50] (helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BB4fV-0005YK-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:28:05 -0400 Received: from optimus22.ietf.org ([132.151.6.22] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BB4fX-000553-Bv for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:28:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BB4fQ-0007HF-5C; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:28:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BB4ea-0007EJ-NF for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:27:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA07015 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 00:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BB4eY-0005SM-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 00:27:06 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BB3qr-0006CN-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2004 23:35:46 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BB2bm-0007GR-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:16:06 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id i372FUS05096 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 22:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 6 Apr 2004 22:15:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Glenn Parsons" To: lemonade@ietf.org Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 22:15:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C41C46.318BED1E" Subject: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.60 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C41C46.318BED1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks, I believe that a face-to-face meeting is critical to achieve timely progress on our work. I think sufficient people have indicated that they would come to the face-to-face meeting to make it worthwhile. Note that I intentionally did not pick east or west coast so that we could meet in the middle. I also understand that some of you are unable to travel to such a meeting, as a result I propose a combined face-to-face / remote conference. That is, those who cannot be present and are interested in the discussions can participate via teleconference, jabber and even iChat/iSight (if someone brings the equipment). Further I propose a change in date to facilitate schedules: Thursday, May 13th Nortel Networks Campus Richardson, TX It has been suggested that we don't start until after lunch on Thursday and finish up on Friday morning. This allows people to stayover just one night, and gives us a fresh review of the outcomes in the morning. Let me know if this is agreeable this week and I will confirm it with our AD. Cheers, Glenn. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C41C46.318BED1E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interim meeting - proposal # 2

Folks,

I believe that a = face-to-face meeting is critical to achieve timely progress on our = work.  I think sufficient people have indicated that they would = come to the face-to-face meeting to make it worthwhile.  Note that = I intentionally did not pick east or west coast so that we could meet = in the middle.

I also understand = that some of you are unable to travel to such a meeting, as a result I = propose a combined face-to-face / remote conference.  That is, = those who cannot be present and are interested in the discussions can = participate via teleconference, jabber and even iChat/iSight (if = someone brings the equipment).

Further I propose a = change in date to facilitate schedules:

   = Thursday, May 13th=0D   Nortel Networks Campus=0D   = Richardson, TX

It has been = suggested that we don't start until after lunch on Thursday and finish = up on Friday morning.  This allows people to stayover just one = night, and gives us a fresh review of the outcomes in the = morning.

Let me know if this = is agreeable this week and I will confirm it with our AD.

Cheers,
Glenn.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C41C46.318BED1E-- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 22:30:55 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA08871 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBPJE-0002dQ-KV for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 22:30:28 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i382USs0010129 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:30:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBPJE-0002dI-CQ for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 22:30:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA08722 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBPJB-0004J0-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 22:30:25 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BBNqi-0006se-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:56:57 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBLiV-0000r4-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:40:19 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBLiC-0005gv-VJ; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:40:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBLhw-0005fg-6Q for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:39:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18115 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBLht-0000kd-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 18:39:41 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BBKHt-0003kD-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 17:08:46 -0400 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBIIx-0006Ms-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 15:01:43 -0400 Received: from crowley.qualcomm.com (crowley.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i37J1AU9001808; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (vpn-10-50-0-43.qualcomm.com [10.50.0.43]) by crowley.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i37J0p3R023926; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X v6.1a Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 08:08:46 -0800 To: "Glenn Parsons" , lemonade@ietf.org From: Randall Gellens Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b26 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 At 10:15 PM -0400 4/6/04, Glenn Parsons wrote: > Further I propose a change in date to facilitate schedules: > > Thursday, May 13th Nortel Networks Campus Richardson, TX > > It has been suggested that we don't start until after lunch on > Thursday and finish up on Friday morning. This allows people to > stayover just one night, and gives us a fresh review of the > outcomes in the morning. How about Tuesday and Wednesday May 11 and 12? I have meetings on Thursday the 13th. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- The idea that people know what they want is wrong. They need to be pulled through the Web. --Laura Jennings, Vice President, Microsoft Network _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 21:24:56 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20391 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBkku-0003th-Ja for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:24:28 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i391OSHT014978 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:24:28 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBkkt-0003tV-IF for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:24:28 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20307 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkkq-0001UB-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:24:24 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkUo-000098-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:07:51 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkEa-0005du-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:51:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBkEX-0008Bw-Bp; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:51:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBkDl-00088v-M8 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:50:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17211 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 20:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkDi-0005Qv-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:50:10 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BBjqY-0002gT-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:26:15 -0400 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBjDa-0006HI-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:45:58 -0400 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.3); Thu, 8 Apr 2004 18:45:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a16] Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 18:45:18 -0500 To: Randall Gellens From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 Cc: "Glenn Parsons" , lemonade@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 On 4/7/04 at 8:08 AM -0800, Randall Gellens wrote: >At 10:15 PM -0400 4/6/04, Glenn Parsons wrote: > >> Further I propose a change in date to facilitate schedules: >> >> Thursday, May 13th Nortel Networks Campus Richardson, TX >> >>It has been suggested that we don't start until after lunch on >>Thursday and finish up on Friday morning. This allows people to >>stayover just one night, and gives us a fresh review of the >>outcomes in the morning. > >How about Tuesday and Wednesday May 11 and 12? I have meetings on >Thursday the 13th. I just spoke to Randy, and so long as the meeting begins Thursday after lunch (i.e., 1pm CDT, which is the conclusion of the MMS teleconference he's on), he should be OK with the Thursday/Friday schedule. That said, I want to add my voice to the few that you've heard already to ask, "Why exactly do we need an interim meeting?" Assuming we come to consensus on the push/pull question (which was deemed a requirement before the meeting even happens), what is it that we think will be accomplished at this meeting that won't happen on the mailing list, or at the most on an extended teleconference? I think we should see an agenda before deciding this is needed. I have no problem travelling down to TX (it's not a long flight from O'Hare to DFW and my department is glad to pick up the tab), but there are other folks who have clearly expressed that an interim meeting would be a pain to get to, and I'd like to hear more justification before we put them out. pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 21:47:38 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA21593 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBl6s-00064f-Iw for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:47:10 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i391lA8k023345 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:47:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBl6p-00064J-GU for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:47:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA21576 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBl6m-00037h-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:47:04 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BBl03-0002cb-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:40:08 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkpJ-0001xK-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:29:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBkpJ-0004O2-KI; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:29:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BBkoo-0004Hj-A9 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:28:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA20610 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 21:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkol-0001vK-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:28:27 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkfQ-00011Q-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:18:49 -0400 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.58]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BBkMb-00075Z-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:59:21 -0400 Received: from magus.qualcomm.com (magus.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.148]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i390wfV2023220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 8 Apr 2004 17:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.46.227.161] (carbuncle.qualcomm.com [129.46.227.161]) by magus.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i390wcrZ013279; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 17:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: hardie@mage.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 17:58:37 -0700 To: Pete Resnick , Randall Gellens From: Ted Hardie Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 Cc: "Glenn Parsons" , lemonade@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 At 6:45 PM -0500 04/08/2004, Pete Resnick wrote: > >I just spoke to Randy, and so long as the meeting begins Thursday >after lunch (i.e., 1pm CDT, which is the conclusion of the MMS >teleconference he's on), he should be OK with the Thursday/Friday >schedule. > >That said, I want to add my voice to the few that you've heard >already to ask, "Why exactly do we need an interim meeting?" >Assuming we come to consensus on the push/pull question (which was >deemed a requirement before the meeting even happens), what is it >that we think will be accomplished at this meeting that won't happen >on the mailing list, or at the most on an extended teleconference? I >think we should see an agenda before deciding this is needed. I have >no problem travelling down to TX (it's not a long flight from O'Hare >to DFW and my department is glad to pick up the tab), but there are >other folks who have clearly expressed that an interim meeting would >be a pain to get to, and I'd like to hear more justification before >we put them out. > Speaking personally, I think it is needed to get the group focused again, and to develop a game plan for tackling some of the issues that have lapsed into dormancy while we've been discussing PUSH v. PULL. There are a lot of items on this working group's plate, and we've made no progress on most. The IMAP profile for Mobile devices, for one, just hasn't had focus. Getting those back on the radar screen and a game plan to get them done seems worth it to me. Two cents worth, I hope, Ted _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 10:44:38 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08313 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCJiN-0005gh-6c for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:11 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3AEiBEX021859 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCJiN-0005gU-1D for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08304 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCJiJ-0005i3-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:44:07 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCJgt-0005Ya-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:42:40 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCJgK-0005On-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:42:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCJgH-0005b8-MN; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:42:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCJgE-0005aV-HY for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:41:59 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08269 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCJgB-0005OV-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:41:55 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCJfF-0005Eo-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:40:58 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCJeH-00052K-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:39:57 -0400 Received: from isode.com (1Cust20.tnt29.lnd3.gbr.da.uu.net [62.188.120.20]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (with SMTP (internal)) with ESMTPA; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 15:38:55 +0100 Message-ID: <4076F586.5040406@isode.com> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 20:12:06 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Hardie CC: Pete Resnick , Randall Gellens , Glenn Parsons , lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,DATE_IN_PAST_12_24 autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Hardie wrote: > At 6:45 PM -0500 04/08/2004, Pete Resnick wrote: > >> I just spoke to Randy, and so long as the meeting begins Thursday >> after lunch (i.e., 1pm CDT, which is the conclusion of the MMS >> teleconference he's on), he should be OK with the Thursday/Friday >> schedule. >> >> That said, I want to add my voice to the few that you've heard >> already to ask, "Why exactly do we need an interim meeting?" Assuming >> we come to consensus on the push/pull question (which was deemed a >> requirement before the meeting even happens), what is it that we >> think will be accomplished at this meeting that won't happen on the >> mailing list, or at the most on an extended teleconference? I think >> we should see an agenda before deciding this is needed. I have no >> problem travelling down to TX (it's not a long flight from O'Hare to >> DFW and my department is glad to pick up the tab), but there are >> other folks who have clearly expressed that an interim meeting would >> be a pain to get to, and I'd like to hear more justification before >> we put them out. > > > Speaking personally, I think it is needed to get the group focused > again, and to > develop a game plan for tackling some of the issues that have lapsed into > dormancy while we've been discussing PUSH v. PULL. There are a lot of > items > on this working group's plate, and we've made no progress on most. > The IMAP > profile for Mobile devices, for one, just hasn't had focus. Getting > those back on the radar screen and a game plan to get them done seems > worth > it to me. I agree with Pete that we need to discuss the agenda first. Can we at least start with (the suggestions below are from the top of my head): a) status of different documents and an estimation from editors when the updated versions will be published; b) consolidated list of cons./pros for PUSH/PULL; c) create a short questionnaire about PULL vs. PUSH and ask people to fill it in (and send replies directly to the responsible person, not to the mailing list). IMHO, some of the questions can be "are you implementor", "previous experience with implementing messaging systems", "do you prefer PUSH or PULL" and "what are the major advantages/disadvantages of both". I personally don't see how the face-to-face meeting can help PUSH vs. PULL decision, as people who are unable to participate will most likely object to any decision made. Once the decision is made, the value of the face-to-face meeting will be increased (in my eyes). > Two cents worth, I hope, > Ted Alexey _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 18:08:01 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21326 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQdT-00036P-19 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:07:35 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3AM7Y0J011921 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:07:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQdS-00036C-Sf for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:07:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21270 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQdP-00079Z-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:07:31 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQbT-0006sj-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:05:32 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQZ3-0006Om-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:03:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQZ2-0001c3-Uq; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:03:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQYa-00018g-KO for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:02:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA20807 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQYU-0006OH-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:02:27 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQX8-0006Bc-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:01:02 -0400 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQWQ-0005zC-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:00:18 -0400 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.4) for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:59:32 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a16] Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:59:30 -0500 To: lemonade@ietf.org From: Pete Resnick Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 Talking to Alexey on another topic (more on that in a different message), we talked about how to make CATENATE draft-friendly. One of the things I suggested (which I believe I've mentioned before) is: - When CATENATE'ing, the client adds a field to the CATENATE'd part indicating that it has been included from elsewhere. - When the client goes back to edit the draft, it first gets the BODYSTRUCTURE, and then retrieves only those parts not marked as above. - When the client is done editing, it re-CATENATE's, just as it did above. The question is, how should they be marked? It would be most desirable if the marker contained some description of the CATENATE'd part since the client doesn't want to have to store local data to find where the part came from. Something like Content-Location comes to mind since it can hold the URL and will be returned by BODYSTRUCTURE. The downside of that (or whatever is chosen) is that it will be sent with the message unless the client downloads them again and re-CATENATE's without the markers. (I'm not sure, but I would think that exposing information about the user's IMAP mailbox structure would be a security issue.) I thought about encrypting it, like MD5'ing against something, but aside from ever increasing pain for the client, I couldn't think of something easy to encrypt against that would stay stable. And of course an annotation would be perfect for this, but I don't think we want to depend on that. (Or maybe we just say that CATENATE is draft-unfriendly for the client unless you have ANNOTATE. Ick.) Anybody have a suggestion for stashing this piece of data? pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 18:18:30 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22228 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQnb-000083-E5 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:18:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3AMI3C8000491 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:18:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQnU-00004v-5C for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:18:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA22172 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQnQ-0001Ia-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:17:53 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQmR-000174-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:16:52 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQkg-0000lo-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:15:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQkf-0005Jb-Ae; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:15:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCQkC-0005Cr-BS for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:14:32 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21892 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQk7-0000aU-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:14:27 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQiW-0000Pd-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:12:49 -0400 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCQi3-0000EG-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:12:19 -0400 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.4) for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:11:46 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01L8EY979FGE0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <01L8DTVLTWQC0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> <01L8EY979FGE0027NR@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a16] Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:11:44 -0500 To: Lemonade From: Pete Resnick Subject: Proxies (Was: [lemonade] Push/pull security hallway conversation) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 Sorry for the delay in responding to this. On 4/1/04 at 10:55 AM -0800, Ned Freed wrote: >>I take it the "bolt sendmail onto imapd" is a proxy in the worst >>possible way, right? > >Something that forked a sendmail process and spoke to it using >whatever protocol would be a proxy, yes. Actually building a full >fledged MTA into the IMAP server would not be a proxy. Wait, now I'm a little confused, but perhaps I misunderstand the above: If we design an IMAP command where the client can say to the IMAP server "Send this message to this set of recipients" at which point the IMAP server takes the message and (as a full fledged MTA (or, I take it, submit client)) sends it, that's *not* a proxy? So, is what's being complained about the ability to pipe SMTP commands through the IMAP command? pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 19:26:43 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23779 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCRrZ-0004mZ-MF for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:26:13 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3ANQDjh018379 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:26:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCRrZ-0004mM-IK for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:26:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23749 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRrX-0005Ad-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:26:11 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRpQ-0004nl-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:24:01 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRoV-0004aE-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:23:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCRoT-0004e1-1H; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:23:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCRnc-0004dp-Ms for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:22:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23659 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRnV-0004PH-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:22:02 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRmu-0004DZ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:21:25 -0400 Received: from mxout3.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.166]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRlh-000424-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:20:09 -0400 Received: from shiva1.cac.washington.edu (shiva1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.100.201]) by mxout3.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3ANJxUR024001; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:19:59 -0700 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3ANJx0H003341; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:19:59 -0700 Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 16:19:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Pete Resnick cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, Pete Resnick wrote: > The question is, how should they be marked? It would be most desirable if the > marker contained some description of the CATENATE'd part since the client > doesn't want to have to store local data to find where the part came from. Although we probably are going to use CATENATE instead of Embedded URI for Push, I recommend that the chosen mechanism have Embedded URI in mind. Putting on my "IMAP architecture hat", and discussing the "IMAP way" of doing it...: My suggestion is *NOT* a Content-Location, since that overloads what that header is used for. Rather, to maximize IMAP friendliness, it should use a Content-Type parameter. The idea here is that a MUA picking up a draft would pick up the ENVELOPE, BODYSTRUCTURE, and body part(s) rather than picking up a raw RFC 2822 message. The matter of final assembly for CATENATE and removal of Embedded URIs then becomes trivial. To further highlight that this is a draft and should not be sent as-is, perhaps there should be some other mandatory blurdybloop for drafts which make it unsuitable for direct sending. CATENATE should check for that blurdybloop, and either barf if it sees it or remove it (and the Content-Type parameter suggested above). Anyway, this is how IMAP was intended to be used. I fear that these notes may be a bit sketchy for some people, but hopefully at least the general idea comes through. The whole point is to work with IMAP, rather than fighting it. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 19:37:35 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23990 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCS26-0005OX-6K for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:37:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3ANb67E020733 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:37:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCS25-0005O3-Ji for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:37:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23987 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCS22-0006gn-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:37:02 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCS0Y-0006Mh-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:35:31 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRz6-0006Ap-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:34:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCRz6-0005IX-BD; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:34:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCRym-0005Hy-0X for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:33:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA23887 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRyj-00068s-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:33:37 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRy5-0005wJ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:32:57 -0400 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCRva-0005W1-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 19:30:22 -0400 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.4); Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:29:36 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a16] Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 18:29:34 -0500 To: Mark Crispin From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 On 4/10/04 at 4:19 PM -0700, Mark Crispin wrote: >On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, Pete Resnick wrote: >>The question is, how should they be marked? It would be most >>desirable if the marker contained some description of the >>CATENATE'd part since the client doesn't want to have to store >>local data to find where the part came from. > >Although we probably are going to use CATENATE instead of Embedded >URI for Push, I recommend that the chosen mechanism have Embedded >URI in mind. So, you are effectively suggesting what I talked about a little later in my message: >>The downside of that (or whatever is chosen) is that it will be >>sent with the message unless the client downloads them again and >>re-CATENATE's without the markers. So, you're saying that when there is a draft on the server, it shouldn't be sendable, but rather the client should be required to download that draft and CATENATE it back, replacing the marked up parts (in your description, with embedded URI). Again, this increases pain for the client. The question I asked (which you didn't answer) was: What if I *want* the draft to be a sendable message? Is there a reasonable way to do that. pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 20:57:26 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25583 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCTHN-0002F2-LN for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:56:57 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3B0uvno008612 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:56:57 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCTHN-0002Ep-HU for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:56:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25577 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCTHK-000279-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:56:54 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCTG5-0001yr-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:55:37 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCTFV-0001qs-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:55:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCTFU-0002Bi-Nj; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:55:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCTFL-0002BS-Sy for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:54:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25561 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCTFD-0001qd-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:54:43 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCTE7-0001if-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:53:36 -0400 Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.134]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCTDP-0001aa-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 20:52:51 -0400 Received: from shiva1.cac.washington.edu (shiva1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.100.201]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3B0qgV0015812; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:52:42 -0700 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3B0qgaI005329; Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:52:42 -0700 Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 17:52:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Pete Resnick cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Sat, 10 Apr 2004, Pete Resnick wrote: > So, you're saying that when there is a draft on the server, it shouldn't be > sendable, but rather the client should be required to download that draft and > CATENATE it back, replacing the marked up parts (in your description, with > embedded URI). Again, this increases pain for the client. Not necessarily. Let's say we define some sort of standard Embedded URI (or equivalent) format for drafts. All that is required is that CATENATE be savvy of that standard format. This is actually an assemble command. I don't know if it's worth making one command do both, or if we have two commands: CATENATE (and assemble) from sources specified by the client, and ASSEMBLE a draft. > The question I asked (which you didn't answer) was: What if I *want* the > draft to be a sendable message? Is there a reasonable way to do that. IMHO, just upload the draft (via CATENATE or APPEND) as a message instead of a draft. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 12:19:11 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28237 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BChfP-0007cA-VI for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:18:44 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3BGIhmf029266 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:18:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BChfP-0007bx-Qq for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:18:43 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28233 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BChfN-0006L9-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:18:41 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCheF-0006DN-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:17:32 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BChco-0005y0-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:16:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BChcn-0007Qw-Kt; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:16:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BChc7-0007QL-Mz for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:15:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA28165 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BChc5-0005w2-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:15:17 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BChaQ-0005hT-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:13:35 -0400 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BChZs-0005a5-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:13:00 -0400 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.4); Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:12:21 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a16] Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:12:14 -0500 To: Mark Crispin From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts Cc: lemonade@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 On 4/10/04 at 5:52 PM -0700, Mark Crispin wrote: >Let's say we define some sort of standard Embedded URI (or >equivalent) format for drafts. >[...] >This is actually an assemble command. This is the other issue that I mentioned Alexey and I were discussing earlier: an EXPAND (or as you put it, ASSEMBLE) command. I think this is an interesting approach, but here are the concerns I've expressed about it before: 1. The skeleton message (Embedded URI or equivalent) is going to need some sort of indication in the message that a particular part is to be expanded. I'm very afraid of the situation where someone sends the user a message with an Embedded URI hiding in it, the user replies, does the ASSEMBLE/EXPAND, and exposes some part of his mail store to the attacker. 2. It creates two mechanisms to build a message: You either do it on the fly with CATENATE, or you do it on a draft with ASSEMBLE/EXPAND. We could say that we would *only* have ASSEMBLE/EXPAND, but that means that the act of building a message (even if you were not going to have a draft) is always a two-step process: First APPEND the skeleton, then ASSEMBLE/EXPAND. Maybe that's not a big deal. 3. ASSEMBLE/EXPAND requires that the IMAP server parse the message. I thought that this was actually something that Mark had objected to in the past as well, but maybe I am mistaken. >>The question I asked (which you didn't answer) was: What if I >>*want* the draft to be a sendable message? Is there a reasonable >>way to do that? > >IMHO, just upload the draft (via CATENATE or APPEND) as a message >instead of a draft. I'm obviously not being clear, so let me try this again: I want CATENATE to result in a sendable message on the server. However, I want to allow the client to retrieve that message from the server for further editing without having to download the included parts. I also want the client to be able to discover the URI of the included part when it retrieves the message for editing. And finally, I'd prefer not to expose information about the structure of my IMAP store to a recipient of the message. So the question I'm asking is: Is there a way to do the above without using annotations on the included parts? pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 15:02:37 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03357 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 15:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCkDa-00036G-Cs for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 15:02:10 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3BJ2A0X011908 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 15:02:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCkDY-000336-7L for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 15:02:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03318 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 15:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCkDU-0000q5-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 15:02:04 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCk98-0000M5-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:57:35 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCk7c-00004i-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:56:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCk7d-0007zK-DO; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:56:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCk7G-0007ys-HO for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:55:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA03080 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCk78-00003R-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:55:30 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCk5E-0007by-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:53:33 -0400 Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.4]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCk33-0007JZ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 14:51:17 -0400 Received: from shiva1.cac.washington.edu (shiva1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.100.201]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3BIp8KU017509; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:51:09 -0700 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3BIp8Cg022015; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:51:08 -0700 Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 11:51:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Pete Resnick cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Pete Resnick wrote: > 1. The skeleton message (Embedded URI or equivalent) is going to need some > sort of indication in the message that a particular part is to be expanded. > I'm very afraid of the situation where someone sends the user a message with > an Embedded URI hiding in it, the user replies, does the ASSEMBLE/EXPAND, and > exposes some part of his mail store to the attacker. I agree that the design and specification for this needs to address the possibility of this attack in its security considerations, as well as the measures to overcome it. This attack is not specific to the Embedded URI idea; it occurs whenever data of arbitrary origin is parsed and processed as anything other than raw text. All of HTTP is one big security hole of this type. > 2. It creates two mechanisms to build a message: You either do it on the fly > with CATENATE, or you do it on a draft with ASSEMBLE/EXPAND. We could say > that we would *only* have ASSEMBLE/EXPAND, but that means that the act of > building a message (even if you were not going to have a draft) is always a > two-step process: First APPEND the skeleton, then ASSEMBLE/EXPAND. I think that client needs are sufficient diverse that a "one shoe fits all" solution is probably less satisfactory. There are actually at least four ways to send a message: 1) transmit directly to submit server. Any saved copy is send independently. 2) APPEND saved copy to IMAP server, then submit saved copy (whether push or pull) 3) APPEND draft with pointers to IMAP server, ASSEMBLE draft into saved copy, then submit saved copy (whether push or pull) 4) CATENATE message parts to IMAP server as saved copy, then submit saved copy (whether push or pull). > 3. ASSEMBLE/EXPAND requires that the IMAP server parse the message. I thought > that this was actually something that Mark had objected to in the past as > well, but maybe I am mistaken. I am opposed to it. But some bad things are worse than other bad things. I'm not happy about it, but convincing arguments have been made about the need to do message composition on an IMAP server. However, those arguments do not support a choice of push vs. pull unless one side linds itself to reality and refuses to accept message composition. With all this in mind, CATENATE is alright as a first order implementation of composition. For some clients it is all that is needed. But it has limitations. Hence the need for ASSEMBLE for a more advanced facility. I have not given up on Embedded URI and submit-server based assembly as a long-term solution. I remained convinced that this is the superior solution. However, a well-designed IMAP-server based assembly capability does not preclude this, and has sufficient utility (the fcc/saved copy problem) that it's worth doing. So, my concern is that IMAP based assembly be well-designed. I think that both CATENATE and ASSEMBLE are useful, and by focusing on doing the task each was designed to do the result is likely to be better than trying to make one command do both. > I want CATENATE to result in a sendable message on the server. As I envision it, CATENATE will always result in a sendable message on the server. Normally, a client would APPEND drafts with pointers (Embedded URI or whatever) in a well-known format, and ASSEMBLE the draft. I see CATENATE's purpose as being for a one-shot, with no drafts. In this case, CATENATE is one RTT and has fewer error conditions than APPEND+ASSEMBLE. Although strictly speaking CATENATE is an "unnecessary" command in this view, the circumstance is common enough and the benefit large enough that I think that it's worth it to have the shortcut of CATENATE. In other words: . CATENATE makes a saved copy, not a draft. . drafts with pointers are not directly sendable, at least not until we have a submit server functionality to do this (the Pull + Embedded URI variant). Drafts must be ASSEMBLEd first. I would not think of storing drafts and saved copies in the same mailbox, and I don't know of any client which does (perhaps there is, but I don't know of one). The risk of confusion, especially when multiple clients are involved, is too great. This suggests that ASSEMBLE needs to take a target mailbox argument ala COPY, and must return a UID of the assembled message. I think that you envision it differently. You see CATENATE as somehow storing implicit Embedded URIs that don't show up if the message is pulled by (or pushed to) a submit server. There then needs to be some procedure to obtain the draft as a framework + pointers. To do this, you will need an additional command (UNCATENATE?) to split the message back into CATENATE arguments. > However, I > want to allow the client to retrieve that message from the server for further > editing without having to download the included parts. I also want the client > to be able to discover the URI of the included part when it retrieves the > message for editing. And finally, I'd prefer not to expose information about > the structure of my IMAP store to a recipient of the message. So the question > I'm asking is: > > Is there a way to do the above without using annotations on the included > parts? In my suggested model there's no reasonable way to do this, but fortunately the question is more or less moot. In your suggested model, you need an UNCATENATE functionality. Either one will work. I think that my model ultimately is better, because it goes to greater effort to keep things separate. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 17:27:09 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07951 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCmTS-0001l5-V5 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:26:43 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3BLQgol006759 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:26:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCmTS-0001ku-Rg for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:26:42 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07934 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCmTO-0007RM-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:26:38 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCmPE-00078n-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:22:21 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCmM3-0006mX-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:19:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCmM0-0001NT-U0; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:19:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BCmLf-0001NH-F8 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:18:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA07604 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCmLb-0006kq-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:18:35 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BCmKQ-0006WH-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:17:22 -0400 Received: from 216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net ([216.43.25.66] helo=episteme-software.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BCmIy-0006J3-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:15:52 -0400 Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.4) for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:15:07 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a16] Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:15:04 -0500 To: lemonade@ietf.org From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_EUDORA autolearn=no version=2.60 On 4/11/04 at 11:51 AM -0700, Mark Crispin wrote: >You see CATENATE as somehow storing implicit Embedded URIs that >don't show up if the message is pulled by (or pushed to) a submit >server. No, actually that's not how I see CATENATE. I see CATENATE as creating a message which the server cannot distinguish from the same message made by the client downloading and APPEND'ing all of the parts. What I want is for the client to be able to distinguish the parts without the server (in FETCH or COPY) being able to see them. This can easily be done with ANNOTATE. The client stores the URI in the annotation saying where it got the part from. When it goes to retrieve the message for further editing, it grabs the annotations and can decide which parts it does and does not need to retrieve. I'm looking for a way to do this without ANNOTATE. As I asked before: >>However, I want to allow the client to retrieve that message from >>the server for further editing without having to download the >>included parts. I also want the client to be able to discover the >>URI of the included part when it retrieves the message for editing. >>And finally, I'd prefer not to expose information about the >>structure of my IMAP store to a recipient of the message. So the >>question I'm asking is: >> >>Is there a way to do the above without using annotations on the >>included parts? I understand that something similar can be done with embedded URI and an ASSEMBLE/EXPAND command. That's got a different set of problems and a different set of side effects. The server needs a lot more knowledge and does lot more of the work. I understand that something similar can be done by having the server keep track of this and having an UNCATENATE command. That again makes the server have a lot more knowledge of the message and makes the server do a lot more work. (And introduces *yet another* new command for the client to deal with.) Really, would anyone like to take a shot at answering the question I asked? The answer might be "There's no way to do it that doesn't run into the same security problems or additional knowledge on the part of the server that other solutions face." But, please, can someone answer the question I asked? pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Apr 12 10:34:14 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21951 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BD2VP-000524-V2 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:33:48 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3CEXl2w019340 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:33:47 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BD2VP-00051r-Qq for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:33:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21937 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BD2VM-0000th-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:33:44 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BD2U9-0000jv-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:32:30 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BD2Sp-0000a4-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:31:07 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BD2Sj-0004sQ-5W; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:31:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BD2S2-0004r8-6E for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:30:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21773 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BD2Rz-0000RO-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:30:15 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BD2QW-0000Dv-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:28:45 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BD2PI-0007mH-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:27:28 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 3018; Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:24:21 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:26:45 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209DB1A498@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: [vpim] Document Action: 'High-Level Requirements for Internet Voice Mail' to Informational RFC Thread-Index: AcQcFQdiRdsEgYpFSgqnw6m6br4rpQEgs88g From: "Eric Burger" To: "IETF LEMONADE (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [lemonade] Document Action: 'High-Level Requirements for Internet Voice Mail' to Informational RFC Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The IESG has approved the following document: - 'High-Level Requirements for Internet Voice Mail ' as an Informational RFC This document is the product of the Voice Profile for Internet Mail = Working=20 Group.=20 The IESG contact persons are Scott Hollenbeck and Ted Hardie. Technical Summary =20 This document describes the high-level requirements for Internet Voice Mail (IVM) and establishes a baseline of desired functionality against which proposed MIME profiles for Internet Voice Messaging can be judged. IVM is an extension of the Voice Profile for Internet Mail (VPIM) version 2 designed to support interoperability with desktop clients. Other goals for this version of VPIM include expanded interoperability with unified messaging systems, conformance to Internet standards, and backward compatibility with voice messaging systems currently running in a VPIM enabled environment. This document does not include goals that were met fully by VPIM version 2. =20 Working Group Summary =20 Working Group last call was completed in August 2002. There were no = comment received as the WG had fully debated the issues by then. =20 Protocol Quality =20 Scott Hollenbeck reviewed the spec for the IESG. This document is being reviewed again because there is no record of a ballot being held and all identified old issues have been cleared. _______________________________________________ VPIM mailing list VPIM@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/vpim _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Apr 13 10:06:31 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12972 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOY7-00049l-TY for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:06:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3DE638B015977 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:06:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOY7-00049c-NO for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:06:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12890 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:06:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOY5-0004dl-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:06:01 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOX1-0004aW-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:04:56 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOWD-0004Wv-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:04:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOW9-0003aQ-Cx; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:04:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOVY-0003RE-KW for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:03:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA12583 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOVU-0004Tt-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:03:20 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOTn-0004Nb-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:01:36 -0400 Received: from libertango.oryx.com ([195.30.94.163]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOSr-0004HG-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:00:38 -0400 Message-Id: From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts Cc: lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 15:58:58 +0200 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Pete Resnick writes: > Really, would anyone like to take a shot at answering the question I > asked? The answer might be "There's no way to do it that doesn't run > into the same security problems or additional knowledge on the part > of the server that other solutions face." But, please, can someone > answer the question I asked? Well, I can't answer your question, but sometimes an approximate solution will do... In this case, perhaps CATENATE could generate a hash of each included body-part, and record that body part in a MIME header? A smart client could look at the hash and know whether it already has downloaded the same body-part elsewhere. Content-MD5 is one possibility. Content-ID using a specified ID format based on SHA-1 is another. Adding something to Content-Type that will be included in FETCH BODYSTRUCTURE is a third. (IMO, this has no chance to work interoperably unless there's a test suite.) Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Apr 13 10:20:28 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14235 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOlc-0008Rg-Aw for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:20:00 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3DEK05c032460 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:20:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOlc-0008RT-6c for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:20:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA14227 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOlZ-0005cA-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:19:57 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOk1-0005T5-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:18:22 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOio-0005NN-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:17:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOii-0007WQ-Sh; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:17:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDOhk-0007Em-Uw for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:16:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA13881 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOhi-0005IR-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:15:58 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOga-0005C8-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:14:48 -0400 Received: from libertango.oryx.com ([195.30.94.163]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDOfW-00057q-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Apr 2004 10:13:42 -0400 Message-Id: From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts Cc: Mark Crispin , lemonade@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:12:14 +0200 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Pete Resnick writes: > I want CATENATE to result in a sendable message on the server. Why, exactly? > However, I want to allow the client to retrieve that message from the > server for further editing without having to download the included > parts. The client needs to download those parts it wishes to edit or display, and which it doesn't have. That seems orthogonal to whether those parts are original to that message or were glued it from some other message. > I also want the client to be able to discover the URI of the included > part when it retrieves the message for editing. And finally, I'd > prefer not to expose information about the structure of my IMAP store > to a recipient of the message. So the question I'm asking is: > > Is there a way to do the above without using annotations on the > included parts? Perhaps using the hashes I mentioned. When the client sees MD-5/SHA-1 value xyz and has seen that before, it can remember where it saw xyz. Arnt _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 13:25:23 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08600 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDo0k-0001DW-Ng for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:17:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EHHIG2004674 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:17:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDnj5-0005fq-1F for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:59:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05987 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDnj3-0007BC-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:59:01 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDngh-0006p7-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:56:37 -0400 Received: from [65.246.255.50] (helo=mx2.foretec.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDnev-0006VE-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:54:45 -0400 Received: from optimus22.ietf.org ([132.151.6.22] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by mx2.foretec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BDnTF-0002V4-5A for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:42:41 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDnBh-00053W-AP; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:24:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDmZQ-0006tB-DG for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:45:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA02633 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDmZP-0002xg-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:44:59 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDmYW-0002vw-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:44:05 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDmXw-0002s1-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:43:28 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id i3EFgu823354 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:42:56 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Glenn Parsons" To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:42:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42237.27DD1F08" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_20_30, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.60 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42237.27DD1F08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ted said: > Speaking personally, I think it is needed to get the group focused > again, and to > develop a game plan for tackling some of the issues that have lapsed into > dormancy while we've been discussing PUSH v. PULL. There are a lot of > items > on this working group's plate, and we've made no progress on most. The > IMAP > profile for Mobile devices, for one, just hasn't had focus. Getting > those back on the radar screen and a game plan to get them done seems > worth > it to me. > > I concur with Ted's position. My view is that we are spending too much time on the push vs pull debate and are losing sight of our overall goals. One of these, that we saw in the goals document is to be an alternative transport to MMS on wireless devices. If we do not pick up the pace, the opportunity to extend Internet mail correctly for this application will have passed us by. As a result, I think that an interim meeting to get this focus is very important. Cheers, Glenn. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42237.27DD1F08 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2

Ted said:


    Speaking personally, I think it is = needed to get the group focused
    again, and to
    develop a game plan for tackling = some of the issues that have lapsed into
    dormancy while we've been discussing = PUSH v. PULL.  There are a lot of items
    on this working group's plate, and = we've made no progress on most.  The IMAP
    profile for Mobile devices, for one, = just hasn't had focus. Getting
    those back on the radar screen and a = game plan to get them done seems worth
    it to me.


I concur with Ted's = position.

My view is that we = are spending too much time on the push vs pull debate and are losing = sight of our overall goals.  One of these, that we saw in the = goals document is to be an alternative transport to MMS on wireless = devices.  If we do not pick up the pace, the opportunity to extend = Internet mail correctly for this application will have passed us = by.

As a result, I think = that an interim meeting to get this focus is very important.

Cheers,
Glenn.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C42237.27DD1F08-- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 13:45:17 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10416 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDoNo-0008NU-Vu for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:41:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EHf86h032191 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:41:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDo8x-0003sS-Lh for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:25:47 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08728 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDo8v-0001xR-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:25:45 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDo84-0001pF-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:24:53 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDo6x-0001f1-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:23:43 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDo0T-00011W-US; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:17:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDnbM-00039I-GK for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:51:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA05415 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDnbK-0006En-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:51:02 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDnaP-0006DO-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:50:06 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDnaG-0006Bg-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:49:56 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id i3EGnO112877 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:49:24 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Glenn Parsons" To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:49:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42240.7150EADA" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.60 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42240.7150EADA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Alexey wrote: > I agree with Pete that we need to discuss the agenda first. > I though I had sent one out, let me do that again... But what you have listed below is not the intended agenda for the meeting, it is the pre-agenda. So let me add some dates: > a) status of different documents and an estimation from editors when the > updated versions will be published - Apr 19 > > b) consolidated list of cons./pros for PUSH/PULL; - Apr 26 > > c) create a short questionnaire about PULL vs. PUSH and ask people to > fill it in (and send replies directly to the responsible person, not to > the mailing list). IMHO, some of the questions can be "are you > implementor", "previous experience with implementing messaging systems", > "do you prefer PUSH or PULL" and "what are the major > advantages/disadvantages of both". - Apr 26 > d) solicit responses to questionnaire - May 3 e) Decision day - May 10 > I personally don't see how the face-to-face meeting can help PUSH vs. > PULL decision, as people who are unable to participate will most likely > object to any decision made. Once the decision is made, the value of the > face-to-face meeting will be increased (in my eyes). > The exact point. And I propose the meeting for May 13th. Does that make sense? Cheers, Glenn. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42240.7150EADA Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2

Alexey wrote:

    I agree with Pete that we need to = discuss the agenda first.

I though I had sent = one out, let me do that again...

But what you have = listed below is not the intended agenda for the meeting, it is the = pre-agenda.

So let me add some = dates:

     
    a) status of different documents and = an estimation from editors when the
    updated versions will be = published   - Apr 19

    b) consolidated list of cons./pros for = PUSH/PULL;   - Apr 26

    c) create a short questionnaire about = PULL vs. PUSH and ask people to
    fill it in (and send replies directly = to the responsible person, not to
    the mailing list). IMHO, some of the = questions can be "are you
    implementor", "previous = experience with implementing messaging systems",
    "do you prefer PUSH or = PULL" and "what are the major
    advantages/disadvantages of = both". - = Apr 26

    d) solicit responses = to questionnaire - May 3

    e) Decision day - = May 10

    I personally don't see how the = face-to-face meeting can help PUSH vs.
    PULL decision, as people who are = unable to participate will most likely
    object to any decision made. Once the = decision is made, the value of the
    face-to-face meeting will be = increased (in my eyes).

The exact = point.  And I propose the meeting for May 13th.

Does that make = sense?

Cheers,
Glenn.







------_=_NextPart_001_01C42240.7150EADA-- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 14:14:42 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12340 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDokl-0006W9-Ii for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:04:52 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EI4p0f025049 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:04:51 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDohH-0004zM-HE for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:01:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11411 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDohF-0004Nb-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:01:13 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDogU-0004LK-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:00:26 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDofy-0004HT-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:59:54 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDoQa-00011L-8A; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:44:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDoKy-0007Ra-G5 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:38:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09582 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoKw-0002r2-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:38:10 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoJz-0002mQ-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:37:12 -0400 Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.134]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoIs-0002jh-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:36:02 -0400 Received: from shiva1.cac.washington.edu (shiva1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.100.201]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3EHZuYB006858; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:35:56 -0700 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3EHZu2J029321; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:35:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:35:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Glenn Parsons cc: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Glenn Parsons wrote: > My view is that we are spending too much time on the push vs pull debate and > are losing sight of our overall goals. One of these, that we saw in the > goals document is to be an alternative transport to MMS on wireless devices. > If we do not pick up the pace, the opportunity to extend Internet mail > correctly for this application will have passed us by. > As a result, I think that an interim meeting to get this focus is very > important. What about an interim meeting in which push vs. pull is *NOT* part of the agenda, and discussion of such is out of order? It is obvious that several of us have expressed a strong interest in the outcome of push vs. pull, and will vigilantly monitor for (and vigorously respond to!) any meeting activity which seems to impact their interests. The inevitable result is that any meeting will be hijacked by the push vs. pull debate, to the deteriment of work on other issues, unless push vs. pull is ruled completely out of order and certain individuals are assured that no mischief will take place in their absence. The solution, as I see it, is a strict time-out on push vs. pull. I see several IETFs' worth of issues for Lemonade to resolve other than push vs. pull. Why not set push vs. pull aside until after all the other issues are resolved? -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 14:32:24 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13361 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDoyh-0002Kz-1f for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:19:15 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EIJFvv008983 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:19:15 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDopv-00087z-0g for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:10:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12137 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDops-0005Ed-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:10:08 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDopA-0005Bk-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:09:24 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDooW-00055t-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:08:44 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDojy-00064y-1v; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:04:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDoTb-0001hR-Od for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:47:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10514 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoTZ-0003QI-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:47:05 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoSf-0003NM-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:46:10 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoRz-0003IE-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:45:27 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id i3EHit124568 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:44:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Glenn Parsons" To: "'lemonade@ietf.org'" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:44:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42248.32A756D6" Subject: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_20_30,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.60 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42248.32A756D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks, At our proposed interim meeting, my goal is to have already decided push vs pull. So at this meeting I would like to spend our time (in order of priority): - summarizing the push or pull decision for extending IMAP - working out the details of forwarding messages without download based on the chosen model - progressing work on server-server notifications - progressing work on IMAP profile - progressing work on IMAP channel - progressing work on LEMONADE - MMS/WAP interworking I'd appreciate comments on the agenda. Cheers, Glenn. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42248.32A756D6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interim proposed agenda

Folks,

At our proposed interim meeting, my = goal is to have already decided push vs pull.

So at this meeting I would like to = spend our time (in order of priority):=0D=0D - summarizing the push or = pull decision for extending IMAP=0D - working out the details of = forwarding messages without download based on the chosen model=0D - = progressing work on server-server notifications=0D - progressing work = on IMAP profile

 - progressing work on IMAP = channel
 - progressing work on LEMONADE = - MMS/WAP interworking

I'd appreciate comments on the = agenda.

Cheers,
Glenn.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C42248.32A756D6-- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 14:32:25 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13375 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDoyq-0002Nb-Kq for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:19:25 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EIJOik009140 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:19:24 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDorl-00009B-Al for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:12:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12182 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDori-0005JS-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:12:03 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoqp-0005Gv-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:11:08 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoq4-0005F6-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:10:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDojz-00065c-CP; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:04:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDoVS-0001wz-RU for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:49:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA10566 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoVQ-0003XF-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:49:00 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoUS-0003T6-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:48:00 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDoTU-0003Oq-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:47:00 -0400 Received: from isode.com (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com via TCP (with SMTP (internal)) with ESMTPA; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:46:17 +0100 Message-ID: <407D78E9.6020600@isode.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:46:17 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Glenn Parsons CC: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glenn Parsons wrote: > Alexey wrote: > > I agree with Pete that we need to discuss the agenda first. > > I though I had sent one out, let me do that again... > > But what you have listed below is not the intended agenda for the meeting, > I never said that I would produce an agenda ;-). I've actually meant technical agenda for the meeting. > it is the pre-agenda. > > So let me add some dates: > > > a) status of different documents and an estimation from editors > when the > updated versions will be published - Apr 19 > > b) consolidated list of cons./pros for PUSH/PULL; - Apr 26 > > c) create a short questionnaire about PULL vs. PUSH and ask > people to > fill it in (and send replies directly to the responsible person, > not to > the mailing list). IMHO, some of the questions can be "are you > implementor", "previous experience with implementing messaging > systems", > "do you prefer PUSH or PULL" and "what are the major > advantages/disadvantages of both". - Apr 26 > > d) solicit responses to questionnaire - May 3 > > e) Decision day - May 10 > > I personally don't see how the face-to-face meeting can help > PUSH vs. > PULL decision, as people who are unable to participate will most > likely > object to any decision made. Once the decision is made, the > value of the > face-to-face meeting will be increased (in my eyes). > > The exact point. And I propose the meeting for May 13th. > > Does that make sense? > You also need to assign names of responsible person(s). And I am not volunteering for b), although I don't mind helping out. Alexey _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 15:23:52 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17557 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDprY-0005yJ-JG for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:15:56 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EJFugm022946 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:15:56 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDpi9-0007Qt-OJ for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:06:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15496 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpi6-0000r7-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:06:10 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDphG-0000nX-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:05:19 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpgb-0000kJ-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:04:37 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDpWU-0006rv-SM; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:54:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDpKq-0007Ms-7b for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:42:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA13884 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpKn-00073k-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:42:05 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpJq-0006zB-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:41:07 -0400 Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.135]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpJ9-0006xF-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:40:23 -0400 Received: from shiva1.cac.washington.edu (shiva1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.100.201]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3EIeHhN023324; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:40:21 -0700 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3EIeHCu000344; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:40:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:40:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin To: Glenn Parsons cc: "'lemonade@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Glenn Parsons wrote: > At our proposed interim meeting, my goal is to have already decided push vs > pull. That may be optimistic, especially for a final decision. The two sides seem very far apart. Given the overall hardening of attitudes, I don't think that a quick decision is going to help the WG move forward. In a worse case scenario, we could have such a poisoned atmosphere that the entire effort will collapse. Can't we have a cooling off period in which push vs. pull is set aside, and we work on the other issues instead? As far as I can tell, none of the Lemonade charter items other than "forward without down" depend upon a decision of push vs. pull. Perhaps after solving all the other problems (and with the benefit of hindsight and cooling off), the question of push vs. pull will seem unimportant and easy to solve. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 15:27:06 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17901 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDpvy-00081U-2c for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:20:30 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EJKUHv030833 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:20:30 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDppD-00054e-3z for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:13:31 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16428 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDppB-0001HN-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:13:29 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpoE-0001F3-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:12:30 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpnJ-0001DO-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:11:33 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDpcH-0000Nu-KL; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:00:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDpVa-0006Z8-6T for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:53:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA14541 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpVX-000053-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:53:11 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpUj-00000j-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:52:22 -0400 Received: from agminet04.oracle.com ([141.146.126.231]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDpTy-0007io-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 14:51:34 -0400 Received: from agminet04.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i3EIp4PD006406 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:51:04 -0700 Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.10]) by agminet04.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i3EIp1PD006349 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:51:02 -0700 Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i3EIp1bI026297 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:51:01 -0600 Received: from oracle-8qdrvd34 (dhcp-4op5-4op6-west-144-25-174-93.us.oracle.com [144.25.174.93]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.4/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i3EIp05f026253 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:51:01 -0600 Message-Id: <200404141851.i3EIp05f026253@rgmgw1.us.oracle.com> From: "Stephane H. Maes" To: lemonade@ietf.org Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:50:49 -0700 X-Sent-Folder-Path: Sent Items X-Mailer: Oracle Connector for Outlook 9.0.4 50822 (10.0.4712) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=3.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK, FORGED_OUTLOOK_HTML,HTML_50_60,HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_HTML_ONLY autolearn=no version=2.60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Glenn,
 
In the = context of such an intermediate meeting, we would like to see on the agenda= the = discussion of moving towards an profile for mobile and therefore = addressing:
    - Notification of the client of event occurring= at the = server.
    - Protocol optimization for mobile network betw= een = client and server + support of mobile usag= e = pattern.
 
This = could start with a more detailed analysis of how these has been proposed in= the = p-imap draft.
 
We = have received substantive comments on the draft, off mailing list. We will = = submit shortly an revision 02 that takes into account all the comment recei= ved = so far.
 
Thanks
 
Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architectu= re - = Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: = +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: = stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (= MSN = Messenger)

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-admin@ietf.org= = [mailto:lemonade-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Glenn = Parsons
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:45 AM
To: = 'lemonade@ietf.org'
Subject: [lemonade] Interim proposed = agenda

Folks,

At our proposed interim meeting, my goal is = to have = already decided push vs pull.

So at this meeting I would like to spend our= time (in = order of priority): - summarizing the push or pull decision for extending I= MAP - = working out the details of forwarding messages without download based on th= e = chosen model - progressing work on server-server notifications - progressin= g = work on IMAP profile

 - progressing work on IMAP channel =
 - progressing work on LEMONADE - MMS/= WAP = interworking

I'd appreciate comments on the agenda.

Cheers,
Glenn.

_______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 18:05:28 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00796 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDsQ4-0002HW-LP for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:59:44 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3ELxiCS008766 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:59:44 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDsHM-0000OU-C2 for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:50:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA29964 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDsHJ-00008o-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:50:41 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDsGU-00005J-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:49:51 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDsFu-00001X-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:49:14 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDs7w-0005D8-Lk; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:41:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDs1j-0001pZ-LY for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:34:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA28896 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDs1h-0006ak-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:34:33 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDs0j-0006Xy-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:33:34 -0400 Received: from hoemail1.lucent.com ([192.11.226.161] helo=hoemail1.firewall.lucent.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDrzs-0006U8-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:32:40 -0400 Received: from il0015exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-1-23-83.lucent.com [135.1.23.83]) by hoemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.2.8/Switch-2.2.8) with ESMTP id i3ELW7V16111 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:32:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: by il0015exch001h.ih.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <2ND3KNZR>; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: <54E40201497DF142B06B27255953F7970C20E5F2@il0015exch007u.ih.lucent.com> From: "Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg)" To: Mark Crispin Cc: "'lemonade@ietf.org'" Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:32:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 Future delivery with revocation certainly could be dependant upon a push/pull decision. Depends somewhat on where messages are long-term stored and where the trigger events are stored and who triggers the eventual submission. IMAP Channel is somewhat tied to the URLauth components of Pull, if would be useful to know the direction before investing much more in channel. I think we need to have a critical mass of people at a face to face meeting to witness the official coin flip.... Honestly, both approaches can work, both have drawbacks and advantages. Indecision is the worst option. Greg V. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Crispin [mailto:mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:40 PM To: Glenn Parsons Cc: 'lemonade@ietf.org' Subject: Re: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Glenn Parsons wrote: > At our proposed interim meeting, my goal is to have already decided push vs > pull. That may be optimistic, especially for a final decision. The two sides seem very far apart. Given the overall hardening of attitudes, I don't think that a quick decision is going to help the WG move forward. In a worse case scenario, we could have such a poisoned atmosphere that the entire effort will collapse. Can't we have a cooling off period in which push vs. pull is set aside, and we work on the other issues instead? As far as I can tell, none of the Lemonade charter items other than "forward without down" depend upon a decision of push vs. pull. Perhaps after solving all the other problems (and with the benefit of hindsight and cooling off), the question of push vs. pull will seem unimportant and easy to solve. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 19:17:49 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05003 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDtVC-00026w-Sb for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:09:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3EN9687008100 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:09:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDtRt-00018v-M6 for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:05:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA04654 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDtRq-0004Fb-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:05:38 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDtQw-0004Dd-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:04:42 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDtQa-0004Bg-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:04:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDtNN-000065-Lg; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 19:01:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDtID-0007Ls-Ak for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:55:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA04356 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDtIA-0003l8-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:55:38 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDtHF-0003jW-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:54:41 -0400 Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.32.134]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDtGr-0003hk-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:54:17 -0400 Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3EMsGVb020011; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:54:16 -0700 Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.11+UW04.02/8.12.11+UW04.03) with ESMTP id i3EMsFJh002517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:54:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:54:14 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: Mark Crispin To: "Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg)" cc: "'lemonade@ietf.org'" Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda In-Reply-To: <54E40201497DF142B06B27255953F7970C20E5F2@il0015exch007u.ih.lucent.com> Message-ID: References: <54E40201497DF142B06B27255953F7970C20E5F2@il0015exch007u.ih.lucent.com> Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 On Wed, 14 Apr 2004, Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) wrote: > Future delivery with revocation certainly could be dependant upon a > push/pull decision. Depends somewhat on where messages are long-term > stored and where the trigger events are stored and who triggers the > eventual submission. I think that we can safely stipulate that future delivery with revocation will long-term store the messages on the IMAP server. Storage of trigger events is tougher. I personally believe that trigger events belong with either with the submit server or perhaps with some third entity (e.g. ACAP). It is quite orthogonal to the scope of IMAP, and leaves IMAP vulnerable to the charge that it is a monolith like Exchange, only inferior. > IMAP Channel is somewhat tied to the URLauth components of Pull, if > would be useful to know the direction before investing much more in > channel. I think that CHANNEL and URLAUTH are useful no matter what is decided about push vs. pull; and therefore there shouldn't be a dependency. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Apr 14 22:17:57 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11535 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDwQh-00052X-ND for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:16:39 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3F2GdHv019366 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:16:39 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDwN4-0004EB-L3 for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:12:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA11051 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDwN1-0006oX-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:12:51 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDwL7-0006WM-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:10:54 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDwK6-0006OQ-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:09:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDwIL-0002w2-Qk; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:08:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BDwCQ-0001TB-Ry for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:01:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA10606 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDwCN-0005zF-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:01:51 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BDwBS-0005wI-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:00:55 -0400 Received: from numenor.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.58]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BDwAm-0005rD-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:00:12 -0400 Received: from sabrina.qualcomm.com (sabrina.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.150]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i3F1xdV2023660 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (vpn-10-50-16-11.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.11]) by sabrina.qualcomm.com (8.12.10/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id i3F1xYKB015972 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X v6.1a Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:57:09 -0700 To: lemonade@ietf.org From: Randall Gellens Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b26 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 At 10:35 AM -0700 4/14/04, Mark Crispin wrote: > The solution, as I see it, is a strict time-out on push vs. pull. > I see several IETFs' worth of issues for Lemonade to resolve other > than push vs. pull. Why not set push vs. pull aside until after > all the other issues are resolved? I don't want to have push-vs-pull fester any longer -- we've hashed this out for a long time. Keeping it open would be a mistake, in my opinion. I agree with Ted and Glenn: let's resolve push-vs-pull, then have an interim to advance the forward-without-download, IMAP profile, and other crucial work areas. I think everyone would stipulate that either push or pull could be made to work, and that there are excellent reasons arguing in favor of each, as well as serious concerns arguing against each. It is a classic engineering trade-off. I may be overly optimistic, but I think we have rough consensus now to go with pull. If I'm right, we can start work on the next steps right away, and have some progress before the interim. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- Citizens for corrupt government, unclean water, higher taxes, unsafe streets, and poor schools. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Apr 15 12:58:02 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04455 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BEA0H-0002Ke-W5 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:46:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3FGkHuO008964 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:46:17 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BE9st-000863-8u for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:38:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA03390 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BE9sr-0004t9-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:38:37 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BE9rs-0004ly-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:37:37 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BE9rF-0004ek-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:36:57 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BE9ic-0004nB-Sa; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:28:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BE9MU-0004cr-9A for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:05:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01997 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BE9MT-0001hc-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:05:09 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BE9LV-0001aN-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:04:10 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BE9KY-0001ST-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:03:12 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id i3FG0iB04418 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:00:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Glenn Parsons" To: "'lemonade@ietf.org'" Subject: RE: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 12:00:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42302.45D4B572" Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.60 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42302.45D4B572 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks, Let me put it this way, we have been working for almost a year on the push vs pull topic. If we do not decide now, we will admit defeat. Let's make a decision and move on. Glenn. > ---------- > From: Parsons, Glenn [CAR:1A11:EXCH] > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:44 PM > To: 'lemonade@ietf.org' > Subject: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda > > Folks, > > At our proposed interim meeting, my goal is to have already decided push > vs pull. > > So at this meeting I would like to spend our time (in order of priority): > - summarizing the push or pull decision for extending IMAP - working out > the details of forwarding messages without download based on the chosen > model - progressing work on server-server notifications - progressing work > on IMAP profile > > - progressing work on IMAP channel > - progressing work on LEMONADE - MMS/WAP interworking > > I'd appreciate comments on the agenda. > > Cheers, > Glenn. > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42302.45D4B572 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda

Folks,

Let me put it this = way, we have been working for almost a year on the push vs pull = topic.  If we do not decide now, we will admit defeat.

Let's make a = decision and move on.

Glenn.


    ----------
    From:   Parsons, Glenn [CAR:1A11:EXCH]
    Sent:   Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:44 PM
    To:     = 'lemonade@ietf.org'
    Subject: =        [lemonade] Interim proposed agenda

    Folks, =

    At our proposed interim meeting, my = goal is to have already decided push vs pull.

    So at this meeting I would like to = spend our time (in order of priority): - summarizing the push or pull = decision for extending IMAP - working out the details of forwarding = messages without download based on the chosen model - progressing work = on server-server notifications - progressing work on IMAP = profile

    =A0- progressing work on IMAP = channel
    =A0- progressing work on LEMONADE - = MMS/WAP interworking

    I'd appreciate comments on the = agenda.

    Cheers, =
    Glenn. =


------_=_NextPart_001_01C42302.45D4B572-- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 16 10:17:04 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11557 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BEU7p-0003N9-Cx for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:15:25 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3GEFPAr012955 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:15:25 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BEU5h-0002Hf-Px for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:13:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA11127 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BEU5f-0000Wj-K7 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:13:11 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BEU4v-0000Uk-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:12:26 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BEU46-0000SO-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:11:34 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BETxp-0006lk-1R; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:05:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BETsM-000318-Vi for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:59:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA09750 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BETsK-0007c8-S7 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:59:24 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BETrY-0007Z5-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:58:36 -0400 Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.157]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BETqw-0007SD-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:57:58 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id i3GDvQG26294 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:57:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:57:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Glenn Parsons" To: lemonade@ietf.org Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:57:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C423B9.81DC011C" Subject: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 3 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_30_40, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.60 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C423B9.81DC011C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Folks, I will reiterate that a face-to-face meeting is critical to achieve timely progress on our work. Sufficient people have indicated that they would come to the face-to-face meeting to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately, it has come to my attention that I have not followed through with the IETF Secretartiat to properly announce this meeting. As a result, we must delay. So I propose a change in date: Wednesday, June 9th Nortel Networks Campus Richardson, TX We will start at 1pm on Wednesday and finish up before lunch on Thursday morning. This allows people to stayover just one night, and gives us a fresh review of the outcomes in the morning. Let me know if this date is agreeable by April 23rd and I will have an official announcement sent. Cheers, Glenn. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C423B9.81DC011C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interim meeting - proposal # 3

Folks,

I will reiterate = that a face-to-face meeting is critical to achieve timely progress on = our work.=A0 Sufficient people have indicated that they would come to = the face-to-face meeting to make it worthwhile.=A0

Unfortunately, it = has come to my attention that I have not followed through with the IETF = Secretartiat to properly announce this meeting.  As a result, we = must delay.  

So I propose a = change in date:

=A0=A0 Wednesday, = June 9th =A0=A0 Nortel Networks Campus =A0=A0 Richardson, TX=20

We will start at 1pm = on Wednesday and finish up before lunch on Thursday morning.=A0 This = allows people to stayover just one night, and gives us a fresh review = of the outcomes in the morning.

Let me know if this = date is agreeable by April 23rd and I will have an official = announcement sent.

Cheers,
Glenn.=20

------_=_NextPart_001_01C423B9.81DC011C-- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Apr 22 23:52:48 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA25202 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGrfC-0002YR-SG for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:47:42 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3N3lgVM009817 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:47:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGraI-0001Or-Fm for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:42:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA24767 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BGraE-0003fp-8x for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:42:34 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BGrZI-0003Q9-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:41:36 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BGrYt-0003AN-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:41:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGrQy-0006R6-Mc; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:33:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BFPFx-000667-M4 for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:15:37 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA29017 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BFPFv-0001xT-Km for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:15:35 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BFPF4-0001kS-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:14:43 -0400 Received: from agminet02.oracle.com ([141.146.126.229]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BFPEC-0001JL-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:13:49 -0400 Received: from rgmgw6.us.oracle.com (rgmgw6.us.oracle.com [138.1.191.15]) by agminet02.oracle.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i3J3DIg2029142 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 20:13:18 -0700 Received: from rgmgw6.us.oracle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rgmgw6.us.oracle.com (Switch-2.1.5/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id i3J3DFp19943; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 21:13:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oracle-8qdrvd34 (dhcp-apac-vpn-jp-gw2-141-144-160-35.vpn.oracle.com [141.144.160.35]) by rgmgw6.us.oracle.com (Switch-2.1.5/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id i3J3DCp19900; Sun, 18 Apr 2004 21:13:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200404190313.i3J3DCp19900@rgmgw6.us.oracle.com> From: "Stephane H. Maes" To: lemonade@ietf.org CC: Jean Sini Subject: [Lemonade] xdeliver for e-mail reply/forward Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 20:13:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Folder-Path: Sent Items X-Mailer: Oracle Connector for Outlook 9.0.4 50822 (10.0.4712) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=-------313251ac313251ac Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK autolearn=no version=2.60 This is a multi-part message in MIME format ---------313251ac313251ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As part of the discussions on Push / Pull, we would like to offer the exper= ience of the xdeliver used for the P-IMAP mechanism that we implemented. Th= e flows are discussed in the attached presentation. = This address similar problems as those discussed so far. We have implemente= d and deploy this mechanism without observing efficiency, scalability or se= curity issues. I have asked Eric to upload a PDF version of the presentation on the lemona= de web site. Thanks Stephane _____ Stephane H. Maes, PhD, Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation. Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6= 07-6296. e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger) = ---------313251ac313251ac Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-powerpoint; name="xdeliver_sm_4_12_04.ppt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="xdeliver_sm_4_12_04.ppt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAQAAAAAA AAAAEAAAMAAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB4AAAANAAAAU2xpZGUgVGl0bGVzAAMAAAAE AAAAAAAALAEAAAMAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAEAAAA4AAAAAgAAAEAAAAA= ---------313251ac313251ac-- _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 23 00:08:44 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25865 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGrpW-0005pb-MF for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:58:22 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3N3wMbs022407 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:58:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGrkr-00043s-VS for 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; Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:34:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: Eric Burger To: "'lemonade@ietf.org'" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:34:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [lemonade] Administrivia: WG Supplemental Web Pages Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 We are in the process of moving the work group supplemental web pages. They will be back on-line shortly at a new, TBD, address. _______________________________________________ lemonade mailing list lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Apr 23 06:03:01 2004 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (optimus.ietf.org [132.151.1.19]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25552 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGxV0-0001lf-6N for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:01:34 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i3NA1YPD006791 for lemonade-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 06:01:34 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGxNW-0000KD-ON for lemonade-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:53:50 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA25263 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BGxNR-0003Ty-1d for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:53:45 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BGxMU-0003CK-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:52:47 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org ([132.151.1.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BGxLb-0002v2-00 for lemonade-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:51:51 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGxIr-0007cK-Tz; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:49:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BGxE5-0005n3-8L for lemonade@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:44:05 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA24830 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org ([132.151.6.1] helo=ietf-mx) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BGxDz-0000nd-E1 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:43:59 -0400 Received: from exim by ietf-mx with spam-scanned (Exim 4.12) id 1BGxD9-0000WW-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:43:07 -0400 Received: from zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1BGxCG-0000EL-00 for lemonade@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:42:12 -0400 Received: from zcard309.ca.nortel.com (zcard309.ca.nortel.com [47.129.242.69]) by zcars04f.nortelnetworks.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id i3N9fiq22508 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by zcard309.ca.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:41:45 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Glenn Parsons" To: lemonade@ietf.org Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:41:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C42916.86B6912C" Subject: [lemonade] Interim meeting - proposal # 4 Sender: lemonade-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: lemonade-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: lemonade@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service enivronments List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on ietf-mx.ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,HTML_40_50, HTML_FONTCOLOR_BLUE,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.60 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42916.86B6912C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Folks, > Several folks have requested the same day of the week as the last proposal due to scheduling. > So I propose a change in date: > > Thursday, June 10-11 Nortel Networks Campus Richardson, TX > > We will start at 1pm on Thursday and finish up before lunch on Friday > morning. This allows people to stayover just one night, and gives us a > fresh review of the outcomes in the morning. > > Let me know if this revised date is agreeable today. If I have no > comments, this will be the date. > I'll be sending more details on logistics later. > Cheers, > Glenn. > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C42916.86B6912C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interim meeting - proposal # 4

Folks,

Several folks have = requested the same day of the week as the last proposal due to = scheduling.=20

So I propose a = change in date:

=A0=A0 Thursday, June 10-11 =A0=A0 Nortel Networks = Campus =A0=A0 Richardson, TX

We will start at 1pm = on Thursday and finish up before lunch on Friday morning.=A0 This allows = people to stayover just one night, and gives us a fresh review of the = outcomes in the morning.

Let me know if = this = revised date is = agreeable today.   If I have no comments, this = will be the date.

I'll be sending more = details on logistics later.

Cheers,
Glenn.


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