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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct  1 15:16:41 2004
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:42:13 -0700
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Media Conversion
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--On 2004-9-27 12:18 PM -0400 Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com> 
wrote:

> Content adaptation could be added to IMAP URL spec.

Eric, do you have a strawman proposal for how this would be done? I 
would really like to look at this before I try to figure out make 
Channel deal with conversion.

What appeals to me about doing this in the IMAP URL spec is that it 
would be applicable to more than just the Channel case. Conversion is 
useful in and of itself, and making it available in the general case is 
a much better design.

--lyndon

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct  1 15:26:36 2004
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Back in April there was a short thread regarding how to make CATENATE =
draft friendly. Has this been resolved?

For reference this post seems to ask the summary question that appears =
not to have been answered.
http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/msg00515.html

Mike

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct  1 15:26:57 2004
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Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 11:50:45 -0700
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer
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> If you insist on "NO TLS!" on wireless devices, then you're forcing
> your customers' email out into the open, where nasties like me can
> listen, and that's going to be painful for your customers. On the
> other hand, if you use TLS, then you can either use the null cipher
> for better battery lifetime, or you can use real crypto.

And don't the vast majority of these devices already support SSL (for 
https)? I am far from convinced that the incremental cost of adding TLS 
is a show stopper. And don't forget, STARTTLS is now mandatory to 
implement in IMAP, so the servers that don't currently support it will 
soon (or will die out due to market pressure).

I am very strongly opposed to adding compression to IMAP itself. TLS 
already provides the infrastructure.

--lyndon

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct  1 15:56:21 2004
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer
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On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> And don't the vast majority of these devices already support SSL (for https)?

I wonder about this myself.  Devices that don't support https are 
increasingly non-useful in this day and age. (I know because I have one).

> I am very strongly opposed to adding compression to IMAP itself. TLS already 
> provides the infrastructure.

I agree.  Adding compression to IMAP itself adds complexity for what seem 
to be, at best, short-term gains.

I abandoned my own ideas for a compressed IMAP when I realized that TLS 
could do a much better job.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Subject: Re: [lemonade] CATENATE and drafts
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On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
> Back in April there was a short thread regarding how to make CATENATE 
> draft friendly. Has this been resolved?

I believe that, for the most part, Lemonade has punted on this issue on 
the grounds that it is not directly germaine to Lemonade's chartered 
tasks.  The task which needed to be solved was "forward-without-download".

Those of us who care about this issue seem to believe that Lemonade's 
choice to use Pull provides sufficient flexibility for future extensions 
in the area of draft-friendliness.

I personally believe that some sort of "embedded URI" mechanism, such as I 
outlined in draft-crispin-lemonade-pull-01, will ultimately be the 
solution.  But the idea is not fully fleshed out, and there are 
substantial technical issues which need to be considered first.

I am satisfied that the current direction Lemonade is taking does not 
preclude such future work.  Preventing closed doors was my concern; I did 
not purpose to get Lemonade to take on additional problems.  Lemonade's 
charter is already quite full!

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) - URLAUTH Extension
	Author(s)	: M. Crispin
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-urlauth-02.txt
	Pages		: 0
	Date		: 2004-10-1
	
This document describes the URLAUTH extension to the Internet
    Message Access Protocol (IMAP) (RFC 3501) and the IMAP URL Scheme
    (IMAPURL) (RFC 2192).  This extension provides a means by which an
    IMAP client can use URLs carrying authorization to access limited
    message data on the IMAP server.

    An IMAP server which supports this extension indicates this with a
    capability name of "URLAUTH".

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct  1 18:26:26 2004
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The strawman discussed briefly in San Diego was to construct a new, multi-purpose data fetch protocol that included a way to discover and request media conversion.  The idea was this capability, using the URLAUTH infrastructure, would be generally useful outside of messaging.   This woould work something like "fetch this IMAP content specified in this URLAUTH and convert it into a small jpeg for me".  Some have ideas about extending HTTP for that role given other initiaves to support mobile browsers.

There was also a contingent of folks interested in a mechanism within IMAP proper for cases of things that could be downloaded as objects rather than streamed, or to save a transport channel.  The primary objection to this approach was the implied plug-in conversion infrastructure required for an IMAP server.   The out-of-band retrieval (channel++) mechanism seemed to avoid burdening the IMAP server, being ammenable to things like streaming accelleration, and being more reusable across the applications domain.

My recollections ready for augmentation.

Greg V.



-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Nerenberg [mailto:lyndon@orthanc.ca]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:42 PM
To: Eric Burger; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Media Conversion


--On 2004-9-27 12:18 PM -0400 Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com> 
wrote:

> Content adaptation could be added to IMAP URL spec.

Eric, do you have a strawman proposal for how this would be done? I 
would really like to look at this before I try to figure out make 
Channel deal with conversion.

What appeals to me about doing this in the IMAP URL spec is that it 
would be applicable to more than just the Channel case. Conversion is 
useful in and of itself, and making it available in the general case is 
a much better design.

--lyndon

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct  1 18:27:46 2004
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:28:22 -0600
From: Stephane Maes <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer
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Sorry my laptop is down and I am on the road. It will take me a while to catch up and participate to these conversations.

I believe we should be able to provide the option to encrypt the content of the exchanged e-mail / notification with encryption (as we should be able to use compression).

This guarantees being able to provide the confidentiality and optimizations required even when you have a device that does not support TLS or you have firewall issues. Associated to it.

Why can't it be allowed when selected between client and server? I recommend that it be the case. P-IMAP showed a way to do it. If we have secure transport (e.g start TLS) we just have not to use any other compression. But I think it is key to provide that option. P-IMAP showed that it can be done rather simply.

I think we should allow that to take place.

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM, Y!) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger) 

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org <lemonade-bounces@ietf.org>
To: lemonade@ietf.org <lemonade@ietf.org>
Sent: Fri Oct 01 12:50:45 2004
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer


> If you insist on "NO TLS!" on wireless devices, then you're forcing
> your customers' email out into the open, where nasties like me can
> listen, and that's going to be painful for your customers. On the
> other hand, if you use TLS, then you can either use the null cipher
> for better battery lifetime, or you can use real crypto.

And don't the vast majority of these devices already support SSL (for 
https)? I am far from convinced that the incremental cost of adding TLS 
is a show stopper. And don't forget, STARTTLS is now mandatory to 
implement in IMAP, so the servers that don't currently support it will 
soon (or will die out due to market pressure).

I am very strongly opposed to adding compression to IMAP itself. TLS 
already provides the infrastructure.

--lyndon

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Mark Crispin [mailto:mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU]
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 3:47 PM
...
> I believe that, for the most part, Lemonade has punted on=20
> this issue on=20
> the grounds that it is not directly germaine to Lemonade's chartered=20
> tasks.  The task which needed to be solved was=20
> "forward-without-download".

Implementers are then left to deal with it. Constrained clients wishing =
to support forward without download will be put in a difficult =
situation. They will have to cobble something together that will =
certainly not be ideal, or they can choose not to support drafts.=20

> not purpose to get Lemonade to take on additional problems. =20
> Lemonade's=20
> charter is already quite full!

Is the burden technical workload or the pain of consensus?

Mike

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From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer
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--On 2004-10-1 2:28 PM -0600 Stephane Maes <stephane.maes@oracle.com> 
wrote:

> This guarantees being able to provide the confidentiality and
> optimizations required even when you have a device that does not
> support TLS

But as was mentioned earlier, IMAP (RFC3501) *requires* TLS, so what is 
the issue? If your "IMAP" device does not suppport TLS, it isn't an 
IMAP device.

--lyndon

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Oct  2 22:07:16 2004
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From: Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer
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When would you ever have a nat/fw issue with TLS?  IPSec, yes, but TLS, no.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephane Maes [mailto:stephane.maes@oracle.com]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:28 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer

Sorry my laptop is down and I am on the road. It will take me a while to
catch up and participate to these conversations.

I believe we should be able to provide the option to encrypt the content of
the exchanged e-mail / notification with encryption (as we should be able to
use compression).

This guarantees being able to provide the confidentiality and optimizations
required even when you have a device that does not support TLS or you have
firewall issues. Associated to it.

Why can't it be allowed when selected between client and server? I recommend
that it be the case. P-IMAP showed a way to do it. If we have secure
transport (e.g start TLS) we just have not to use any other compression. But
I think it is key to provide that option. P-IMAP showed that it can be done
rather simply.

I think we should allow that to take place.

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax / UM: +1-650-607-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM, Y!) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)

-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org <lemonade-bounces@ietf.org>
To: lemonade@ietf.org <lemonade@ietf.org>
Sent: Fri Oct 01 12:50:45 2004
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer


> If you insist on "NO TLS!" on wireless devices, then you're forcing
> your customers' email out into the open, where nasties like me can
> listen, and that's going to be painful for your customers. On the
> other hand, if you use TLS, then you can either use the null cipher
> for better battery lifetime, or you can use real crypto.

And don't the vast majority of these devices already support SSL (for
https)? I am far from convinced that the incremental cost of adding TLS
is a show stopper. And don't forget, STARTTLS is now mandatory to
implement in IMAP, so the servers that don't currently support it will
soon (or will die out due to market pressure).

I am very strongly opposed to adding compression to IMAP itself. TLS
already provides the infrastructure.

--lyndon

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Oct  2 22:20:55 2004
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> I'm glad you brought this up Eric.  I think this is needed for low
> bandwidth terminals.  Computational power of terminals is growing faster
> than network bandwidth at the current time, so I feel this is a key
> technology.

> I think TLS compression is fine, but for consumer level systems which
> will not be enabling IMAPS (simply because they don't know what it is) I
> think we will need application level compression (like P-IMAPs GZIP).

Ignorance is never an excuse. I also fail to see why someone would be ignorant
of one mechanism but aware of another.

> I agree with Arnt that stream compression is better than individual
> message compression, but we may be able to define both.

Just because we can do something doesn't mean that we should. Less is almost
always more, and unless there's a compelling technical advantage to performing
application layer compression (which is why DATA is important), we have no
business defining it.

				Ned

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> From an operator's perspective, any feature which reduces bandwidth
> performance is a good thing.  So they would want compression at any
> level.
> However, TLS connections over GPRS networks tend to be expensive to
> setup and difficult to maintain (at least today).

Due, no doubt, to the use of public keys, which as Arnt already pointed
out aren't needed to get compression.

> Another consideration is battery drain.  TLS connections tend to be a
> big load on the battery because of the computational power required to
> decrypt + decompress the stream.  App level compression would improve
> battery life, but would still require more power than no compression at
> all.

Again, you don't need to do crypto to do compression. And since crypto is
highly desirable independent of the compression issue, if this is a valid
concern you need to take it up in the context of the available privacy
mechanisms in TLS to see what can be done to ameliorate it.

> In order to improve the acceptance of email client applications on
> mobile terminals we need to make it as user friendly to the common
> consumer (90% of the market) as possible.  While enterprises are happy
> with TLS compression (or IPSec, MOBIKE, VPN services), allot of
> operators today don't offer IMAP/S access to the ISP email server or
> require a business/enterprise level contract (not to mention Hotmail,
> Yahoo mail, etc.)

Even if this is true (and the number of ISPs I deal with on a regular basis who
insist on TLS support all over the place suggests it is not), I again fail to
see what is magically different about adding application level compression that
is going to make it deploy more quickly. Remember, implementations are already
required to support TLS in IMAP4. AFAIK we barely even have a proposal for
application level compression on the table right now, let alone a finished
standard. And I'm not opimistic that an implementation requirement for all
IMAP4 servers to support application level compression would ever see the light
of day given that other alternatives exist.

> If we can add an extension to the server at the application layer the
> user/operator doesn't have to be aware that it exists at all.  The
> capability is negotiated by the client and server, not configured by the
> user.

The same can be said for compression-only STARTTLS.

> Another problem is the idea of using IMAP server to client notifications
> or IMAP-to-MMS mapping.  In these instances a TLS connection is not
> possible and we may want to add compression technology for transporting
> email messages over MMS networks or OOB OTA email delivery.

> To summarize, I understand you objection and agree if we were designing
> for desktop systems, but Lemonade needs to consider both enterprise and
> consumer based mobile systems where certain technologies are either
> unavailable or unwieldy, requiring us to look at alternative methods to
> deliver the same benefits.  If we can come up with something that does
> not require compression in order to increase bandwidth utilization, I'm
> all for it.

I don't know what it means to have compression without compression. And absent
a compelling technical reason for an application layer compression scheme I am
absolutely apposed since I see it as an unnecessary duplication of effort.

> In the end we need to make mobile email as painless as possible, and
> forcing TLS to compress email will make mobile email clients more
> unwieldy than they already are.

Thus far you have provided no technical reason why this is the case.

				Ned

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Compression: TLS or Application-layer
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> <chair-hat-off>

> Is gzip less expensive than TLS with null cipher?.

This question is impossible to answer since you haven't stated what other
TLS options are being used. Is integrity protection also in force? Has
a compression layer been negotiated? If so, what is it?

Perhaps you meant to ask which is less expensive: TLS with a null cipher, null
integrity, and deflate compression, or an application-level gzip compression.
If so, then I would expect the costs to be dominated by deflate compression,
which underlies both of these approaches; the blocking overhead of TLS is
almost certainly negligable.

> TLS works on the stream
> (e.g., 8KB or pick your favorite size) at a time, not on the entire message
> (including data).

Both TLS and application layer compression have to have a means of "pushing"
the data out so the dialogue can turn around. This typically translates into
quite a few compression blocks smaller than the maximum.

> This could very well result in fewer instructions,
> meaning less battery drain.  That said, that is why I was wondering about
> the compression performance of TLS vs. gzip.

Compression, like everything else in TLS, is negotiable. If the compression
scheme is negotiated to be deflate, I would expect it to be about the same. If
some other compression scheme got negotiated it might end up being more or less
costly depending.

I believe two compression schemes have been specified for TLS so far, and more
are probablyh on the way. We would probably have to specify a mandatory to
implement scheme.

> I also have serious protocol issues with application-layer compression.
> Today we might like gzip.  Tomorrow we might like ZIP (ignoring IPR
> issues...).  The day after we might want FOOBAR.  After that, BARFOO takes
> hold.  Service provider Z wants to use their proprietary compression
> program.  That means the protocol needs to support application-layer
> compression method negotiation.  TLS, SIGCOMP, et al. have solved this
> already.

Well, we could always define a negotiation mechanism of our own. Or have
multiple separate extensions. But this gets complicated fairly quickly, not to
mention the fact that it could easily end up creating additional turnarounds in
the dialogue and as a result increasing latency.

				Ned

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From: Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>
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Subject: [lemonade] Call the Quetion - Compression: TLS or Application-layer
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Given the discussion so far on compression, I would like to call the
question of  how lemonade will  support compression.

How is this for a proposal:

Lemonade will not specify any proprietary, application level compression.

Lemonade will require, in the profile, TLS support.

Lemonade will suggest, in the profile, that if one requires compression,
that one use TLS with a NULL cipher.  We should document the points raised
on the list of why, namely:
* Same computational complexity for, e.g., gzipping data in the application
versus TLS with NULL cipher in the transport layer.
* All IMAP servers are required to support TLS, so server (and, for the most
part, clients) do not need to change
* The entire IMAP stream, including login, commands, etc., benefit from
compression, not just data

Unless there are serious objections raised on the list, this is the way we
will go.

<chair-hat-on>
If you have objections, raise them now or forever hold your peace.
</chair-hat-on>

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From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Call the Quetion - Compression: TLS or
	Application-layer
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At 1:34 PM -0400 10/4/04, Eric Burger wrote:
>Given the discussion so far on compression, I would like to call the
>question of  how lemonade will  support compression.
>
>How is this for a proposal:
>
>Lemonade will not specify any proprietary, application level compression.

I am not sure what proprietary means in the above.  Do you mean:
"Lemonade will not specify any application-protocol specific compression
for IMAP"?

>Lemonade will require, in the profile, TLS support.
>
>Lemonade will suggest, in the profile, that if one requires compression,
>that one use TLS with a NULL cipher.

I assume this would allow someone to use a cipher stronger than null
and compression?


>  We should document the points raised
>on the list of why, namely:
>* Same computational complexity for, e.g., gzipping data in the application
>versus TLS with NULL cipher in the transport layer.
>* All IMAP servers are required to support TLS, so server (and, for the most
>part, clients) do not need to change

Or, possibly, clients who do need to change would have had to anyway?


>* The entire IMAP stream, including login, commands, etc., benefit from
>compression, not just data
>
>Unless there are serious objections raised on the list, this is the way we
>will go.
>
><chair-hat-on>
>If you have objections, raise them now or forever hold your peace.
></chair-hat-on>
>


It's difficult for a working group participant to know when "now" has
passed when reading a mailing list.  A set period for comments and/or
a decision date are easier.  Could I ask you to name a period or an
end date for comments?
			thanks,
				Ted Hardie

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) CATENATE Extension
	Author(s)	: P. Resnick
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-catenate-02.txt
	Pages		: 6
	Date		: 2004-10-4
	
The CATENATE extension to the Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
allows clients to create messages on the IMAP server which may
contain a combination of new data along with parts of (or entire)
messages already on the server. Using this extension, the client can
catenate parts of an already existing message on to a new message
without having to first download the data and then upload it back to
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From: Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>
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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or Applicatio
	n-layer
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 16:59:06 -0400 
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Excellent points.

For those that won't read to the bottom: Comments due 12 October.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Hardie [mailto:hardie@qualcomm.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 2:15 PM
> To: Eric Burger; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lemonade] Call the Quetion - Compression: TLS or
> Application-layer
> 
> 
> At 1:34 PM -0400 10/4/04, Eric Burger wrote:
> >Given the discussion so far on compression, I would like to call the
> >question of  how lemonade will  support compression.
> >
> >How is this for a proposal:
> >
> >Lemonade will not specify any proprietary, application level 
> compression.
> 
> I am not sure what proprietary means in the above.  Do you mean:
> "Lemonade will not specify any application-protocol specific 
> compression for IMAP"?

Your language is much better than mine.

> >Lemonade will require, in the profile, TLS support.
> >
> >Lemonade will suggest, in the profile, that if one requires 
> compression,
> >that one use TLS with a NULL cipher.
> 
> I assume this would allow someone to use a cipher stronger than null
> and compression?

Correct.

> >  We should document the points raised
> >on the list of why, namely:
> >* Same computational complexity for, e.g., gzipping data in 
> the application
> >versus TLS with NULL cipher in the transport layer.
> >* All IMAP servers are required to support TLS, so server 
> (and, for the most
> >part, clients) do not need to change
> 
> Or, possibly, clients who do need to change would have had to anyway?

Is there a way to word this?

> >* The entire IMAP stream, including login, commands, etc., 
> benefit from
> >compression, not just data
> >
> >Unless there are serious objections raised on the list, this 
> is the way we
> >will go.
> >
> ><chair-hat-on>
> >If you have objections, raise them now or forever hold your peace.
> ></chair-hat-on>
> >
> 
> 
> It's difficult for a working group participant to know when "now" has
> passed when reading a mailing list.  A set period for comments and/or
> a decision date are easier.  Could I ask you to name a period or an
> end date for comments?
> 			thanks,
> 				Ted Hardie

Good point.  In time for the Interim on 12 October 2004.

_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@brooktrout.com>, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or
	Application-layer
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 00:26:21 -0700
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All,

In our view, it is fine to support STARTTLS for encryption (confidentiality=
 and integrity) as well as compression; but this is not sufficient.

Therefore we do not support a statement that would indicate that Lemonade s=
olely relies on STARTTLS. Instead we recommend that the profile provide the=
 option for client and server to select "application level compression" and=
 "application level encryption". =


We caution against imposing too many assumptions on the network transport t=
hat may prevent reuse of the protocol in other environments / situations li=
ke mobile access to corporate e-mail in general or over other transport bin=
dings. We are concerned that such kinds of assumptions in the past have pla=
gued widely spread adoption of mobile e-mail by enterprises or deployments =
by operators. We should try to avoid any unnecessary limitation.

Note that the arguments presented here differ from the discussions that hav=
e taken place so far, without prejudging the outcome of these other discuss=
ions... But as Lemonade aims at supporting mobile e-mail, among other thing=
s, it should take into account the specificity of mobile networks and the r=
ealities of mobile deployments / usages; even when it involves aspects not =
typically met by IETF with conventional internet technologies...

First, it is in our experience that corporate may not open firewall port ot=
her than 80 and 443. This is a typical use case of why IMAP over TLS (IMAPS=
, ...) does not solve all issues even if supported by server behind firewal=
l and by a mobile phone... We have observed numerous such cases of large co=
rporations with IMAP servers (that support STARTTLS) that can't be accessed=
 by clients on GPRS, 3G or CDMA (etc... Take you pick) phones / smart phone=
s even when they also support STARTTLS. And VPN is often not an option (clo=
sed platform) or very impractical (considering the constraints of mobile ne=
twork and devices). Lemonade should not make assumptions on the transport t=
hat may prevent its use through firewall.

When a binding / transport different than TLS is used (e.g. HTTP or HTTPS a=
s described in P-IMAP) for example to address the issues above, it should b=
e possible to use "application level encryption" and Application level comp=
ression" to achieve appropriate confidentiality and optimization. For examp=
le, if the solution relies on HTTPS, it is our experience that mobile clien=
ts (even the latest ones) may use (often use) older versions of SSL where a=
pplication level encryption of the payload is needed. =


Therefore, and based on the simple mechanism described in P-IMAP and lesson=
s learned from real life deployments, we recommend the support of gzip for =
compression as well as an encryption mechanism as proposed in P-IMAP and le=
tting the server and client turn it on when needed / if needed. The CAPABIL=
ITY mechanism easily takes care of most of the issues. Market adoption will=
 later decide if one of the mechanism is superfluous. However, not to provi=
de this mechanism may stifle adoption...

In addition, as a related topic, and in order to allow use case / deploymen=
t model where a lemonade proxy is deployed in a service provider / operator=
 domain that differs from corporate mail server, it is critical that applic=
ation level encryption of the payload be possible. Otherwise, we risk simil=
ar security holes similar to the famous "WAP gap" that could doom such depl=
oyment models and threaten adoption of the protocol by the mobile industry:=
 service providers want a solution that allows them to host such proxy and =
some enterprises (at least for small and medium enterprises) want to be abl=
e to rely on such hosted services but require end-to-end security.

So we do not agree with imposing network transport assumptions that would h=
urt adoption and limit deployment options. Especially as we have validate i=
n deployments and it was confirmed in related mailing list discussions that=
 performances and complexity of the two are equivalent and as the CAPABILIT=
Y mechanism provides the necessary flexibility for the vendors. =


We do agree with the value of being able to simply rely on STARTTLS when ap=
propriate. However when STARTTLS is not supported or not enough, applicatio=
n level encryption and compression MUST be possible and therefore described=
 in the Lemonade profile.

Thanks

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Eric Burger
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 1:59 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Cc: 'Ted Hardie'
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or Application=
-layer


Excellent points.

For those that won't read to the bottom: Comments due 12 October.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Hardie [mailto:hardie@qualcomm.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 2:15 PM
> To: Eric Burger; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lemonade] Call the Quetion - Compression: TLS or =

> Application-layer
> =

> =

> At 1:34 PM -0400 10/4/04, Eric Burger wrote:
> >Given the discussion so far on compression, I would like to call the =

> >question of  how lemonade will  support compression.
> >
> >How is this for a proposal:
> >
> >Lemonade will not specify any proprietary, application level
> compression.
> =

> I am not sure what proprietary means in the above.  Do you mean: =

> "Lemonade will not specify any application-protocol specific =

> compression for IMAP"?

Your language is much better than mine.

> >Lemonade will require, in the profile, TLS support.
> >
> >Lemonade will suggest, in the profile, that if one requires
> compression,
> >that one use TLS with a NULL cipher.
> =

> I assume this would allow someone to use a cipher stronger than null =

> and compression?

Correct.

> >  We should document the points raised
> >on the list of why, namely:
> >* Same computational complexity for, e.g., gzipping data in
> the application
> >versus TLS with NULL cipher in the transport layer.
> >* All IMAP servers are required to support TLS, so server
> (and, for the most
> >part, clients) do not need to change
> =

> Or, possibly, clients who do need to change would have had to anyway?

Is there a way to word this?

> >* The entire IMAP stream, including login, commands, etc.,
> benefit from
> >compression, not just data
> >
> >Unless there are serious objections raised on the list, this
> is the way we
> >will go.
> >
> ><chair-hat-on>
> >If you have objections, raise them now or forever hold your peace. =

> ></chair-hat-on>
> >
> =

> =

> It's difficult for a working group participant to know when "now" has =

> passed when reading a mailing list.  A set period for comments and/or =

> a decision date are easier.  Could I ask you to name a period or an =

> end date for comments?
> 			thanks,
> 				Ted Hardie

Good point.  In time for the Interim on 12 October 2004.

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade



_______________________________________________
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lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct  5 06:12:05 2004
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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:09:57 +0200
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or
	Application-layer
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Could you please confirm that I've understood your position correctly, 
or if not, correct any misconceptions?

1. You're saying that many corporations have decided to let only HTTP 
and HTTPS through their firewalls. You're arguing that for this reason, 
LEMONADE should try to disguise IMAP connections as either HTTP or 
HTTPS.

2. You're saying that many devices cannot support the desired 
compression functionality as part of TLS (because they cannot upgrade 
TLS), but can do so as an IMAP extension. You're arguing that for this 
reason, LEMONADE should include application-level compression as well 
as TLS-level.

3. You're saying that TLS is (often?) deployed such that a part of the 
way between client and server is unprotected, and that an 
application-level approach will not suffer from this weakness, and that 
therefore, an application-level solution is desirable.

Arnt

_______________________________________________
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On
> Behalf Of ext Stephane H. Maes
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:26 AM
...
>=20
> First, it is in our experience that corporate may not open=20
> firewall port other than 80 and 443. This is a typical use=20
> case of why IMAP over TLS (IMAPS, ...) does not solve all=20

This is an orthogonal issue that should not have any bearing on this =
discussion. This could be a thread by itself, but I do not see how it =
argues for application level compression.

> the issues above, it should be possible to use "application=20
> level encryption" and Application level compression" to=20

profile-00 has nothing in it regarding application level encryption. Is =
there a newer version? So you would like application level encryption as =
well. I believe this is a very serious mistake. Once you go down this =
route you are now reinventing many security solutions that have already =
been solved and peer reviewed by the general community.

>=20
> In addition, as a related topic, and in order to allow use=20
> case / deployment model where a lemonade proxy is deployed in=20
> a service provider / operator domain that differs from=20
> corporate mail server, it is critical that application level=20
> encryption of the payload be possible. Otherwise, we risk=20
> similar security holes similar to the famous "WAP gap" that=20

Could you explain in technical detail the problem here. I don't see it. =
Are you saying there will be a problem similar to WAP Gap or are you =
saying the WAP Gap will be a problem. The "WAP Gap" was solved by WAP =
2.0.

Mike

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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 06:46:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: NED+um@mauve.mrochek.com
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Call the Quetion - Compression: TLS or
	Application-layer
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	<EDD694D47377D7119C8400D0B77FD331B423FC@nhmail2.eng.brooktrout.com>
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> Given the discussion so far on compression, I would like to call the
> question of  how lemonade will  support compression.

> How is this for a proposal:

> Lemonade will not specify any proprietary, application level compression.

> Lemonade will require, in the profile, TLS support.

> Lemonade will suggest, in the profile, that if one requires compression,
> that one use TLS with a NULL cipher.  We should document the points raised
> on the list of why, namely:

> * Same computational complexity for, e.g., gzipping data in the application
> versus TLS with NULL cipher in the transport layer.

> * All IMAP servers are required to support TLS, so server (and, for the most
> part, clients) do not need to change

> * The entire IMAP stream, including login, commands, etc., benefit from
> compression, not just data

> Unless there are serious objections raised on the list, this is the way we
> will go.

I think this is the way to go. The only thing I see as missing is the
specification of a particular compression scheme that has to be implemented
by servers supporting compression. I suggest we specify deflate as
the mandatory to implement algorithm.

				Ned

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct  5 13:24:02 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or
	Application-layer
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:06:26 -0700
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Arnt,

Thanks for your questions for clarification. I have answers below in-line b=
etween <SM> ... </SM>.

I hope that it clarifies. Let me know otherwise.

Thanks

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen [mailto:arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no] =

Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:10 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Cc: Eric Burger; Stephane H. Maes
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or Application=
-layer


Could you please confirm that I've understood your position correctly, =

or if not, correct any misconceptions?

1. You're saying that many corporations have decided to let only HTTP =

and HTTPS through their firewalls. <SM> Yes that is correct; unfortunately.=
 It takes time to change such guidelines. So to help adoption, we should no=
t prevent variations that can cope with this situation.</SM>

You're arguing that for this reason, =

LEMONADE should try to disguise IMAP connections as either HTTP or =

HTTPS. =


<SM> More or less correct, but it needs some qualifications: I am arguing t=
hat Lemonade ****should not prevent*** using other bindings / mechanisms th=
at would work through such firewall. We may not have to try to disguise in =
the spec but we should not prevent such a solution. In such case, it is imp=
ortant that the lemonade profile optimizations still be useful when using s=
uch approaches. Otherwise, I am concerned that adoption of Lemonade for mob=
ile e-mail may suffer.

I believe that OMA will follow our work and produce an end-to-end recommend=
ation for mobile e-mail that may recommend bindings, settings and other asp=
ects on top of the protocol. It is important that it be able to point to Le=
monade as core protocol. If main deployment use cases can't be supported, t=
his may be a problem.

BTW, and I hope that this will not also distract the discussion, but we als=
o believe that more efficient transport mechanisms exist and may be conside=
red over mobile networks. We would like to leave open the possibility for L=
emonade to be transported on them if desired. Again this requires that Lemo=
nade does not constraint the assumptions on the transport.</SM>

2. You're saying that many devices cannot support the desired =

compression functionality as part of TLS (because they cannot upgrade =

TLS), but can do so as an IMAP extension. You're arguing that for this =

reason, LEMONADE should include application-level compression as well =

as TLS-level.

<SM> That is not exactly the trust of my argument to recommend the optional=
 support of application level compression / encryption. Sorry if it distrac=
ted. I only intended to observe that in our experience, device manufacturer=
s / client developers may more easily first upgrade protocol plug-ins for e=
-mail client that reuse the rest of the stack rather than replace the whole=
 stack. So and without claiming to understand all the implications for mobi=
le devices of implementing the different versions of SSL, we see that compr=
essions aspects may not always be available in the immediate future. Device=
 vendors may be able to better comment, however I think it is aligned with =
the TLS / SSL concerns raised by others earlier. Again, we would like to se=
e Lemonade quickly adoptable instead of being bugged down by such considera=
tions.</SM>

3. You're saying that TLS is (often?) deployed such that a part of the =

way between client and server is unprotected, and that an =

application-level approach will not suffer from this weakness, and that =

therefore, an application-level solution is desirable.

<SM> No, I am not saying that TLS is (often?) deployed such that a part of =
the =

way between client and server is unprotected. I do not believe that this is=
 true.

I claim that a deployment model of interest for operators and enterprises c=
onsists of:
- Mobile clients in the mobile network.
- Lemonade proxy server (i.e. a converter between Lemonade and backend e-ma=
il protocol like imap) in operator / SP domain. [Could also be in DMZ]
- Backend end e-mail server in enterprise.

Most mobile e-mail deployment today are based on such type of configuration=
s. I believe that these will be the first types of large deployments that w=
e will see.

It is important that we support these deployment model with end to end conf=
identiality; i.e. without a stage where the messages may be in clear outsid=
e the enterprise domain. This is the problem that plagued WAP (aka the WAP =
gap). I  used it only as an analogy... An application-level encryption is o=
ne way to address this issue and guarantee end -to-end encryption of the me=
ssages when needed. =


Encryption and compression are linked discussions if we start considering S=
TARTTLS as an option to perform compression.</SM>

Arnt



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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct  5 13:45:54 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLSorApplication-layer
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:30:04 -0700
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Mike,

Some comments in-line marked as <SM>...</SM>.

Let me know if it helps.

Thanks

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 5:25 AM
To: stephane.maes@oracle.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLSorApplication-l=
ayer


> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On
> Behalf Of ext Stephane H. Maes
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:26 AM
...
> =

> First, it is in our experience that corporate may not open
> firewall port other than 80 and 443. This is a typical use =

> case of why IMAP over TLS (IMAPS, ...) does not solve all =


This is an orthogonal issue that should not have any bearing on this discus=
sion. This could be a thread by itself, but I do not see how it argues for =
application level compression.

<SM> If we are recommending STARTTLS to provide compression, then encryptio=
n, compression and the firewall issues seem to become entangled. Anyway, ev=
en with cipher set to NULL, the firewall will lead to the same type of prob=
lems or increase deployment complexities to address. </SM>

> the issues above, it should be possible to use "application
> level encryption" and Application level compression" to =


profile-00 has nothing in it regarding application level encryption. Is the=
re a newer version? =


<SM> Not yet. I am pondering if we should submit an update before Vancouver=
 meeting or after for DC... Actually it does (3.6.  Lemonade Command Extens=
ions) to the extent that it refers to the extension draft that mentions suc=
h encryption. Also last paragraph of section on security consideration rais=
es this issue.</SM> =


So you would like application level encryption as well. I believe this is a=
 very serious mistake. Once you go down this route you are now reinventing =
many security solutions that have already been solved and peer reviewed by =
the general community.
<SM> I would hope such encryption would rely on well established and review=
ed encryption scheme and be optional. It is really the proxy use case that =
requires that. We may also decide not to specify as part of this work. Stil=
l I would recommend that the protocol allows the establishment application =
level encryption if agreed/required by both end. In the P-IMAP draft we did=
 not specify the encryption scheme, for the same reasons that you indicated=
 I think, but we described a way to have it turned on.</SM>

> =

> In addition, as a related topic, and in order to allow use
> case / deployment model where a lemonade proxy is deployed in =

> a service provider / operator domain that differs from =

> corporate mail server, it is critical that application level =

> encryption of the payload be possible. Otherwise, we risk =

> similar security holes similar to the famous "WAP gap" that =


Could you explain in technical detail the problem here. I don't see it. Are=
 you saying there will be a problem similar to WAP Gap or are you saying th=
e WAP Gap will be a problem. The "WAP Gap" was solved by WAP 2.0.

<SM>
I am saying that there may be a problem similar to WAP Gap for some deploym=
ent models. =


I claim that a deployment model of interest for operators and enterprises c=
onsists of:
- Mobile clients in the mobile network.
- Lemonade proxy server (i.e. a converter between Lemonade and backend e-ma=
il protocol like imap) in operator / SP domain. [Could also be in DMZ]
- Backend end e-mail server in enterprise.

Most mobile e-mail deployment today are based on such type of configuration=
s. I believe that these will be the first types of large deployments that w=
e will see.
</SM> =


Mike

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade



_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


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From: "Glenn Parsons" <gparsons@nortelnetworks.com>
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Folks,

Below is the logistics and proposed agenda for the LEMONADE interim meeting
next week.  Our goal is to close on the documents that are near completion,
and spend some time discussing the open issues.  Let us know if you have any
comments on the agenda.

Cheers,
Glenn.


LEMONADE WG Interim Meeting
Date: Tuesday, 12 October 2004
Time: 8am - 5pm

Venue: 
Nortel Networks
Orca Boardroom
13575 Commerce Pkwy, Suite 250
Richmond, BC  V6V 2L1  Canada
(see attached file for directions from the airport)

Jabber:
lemonade@ietf.xmpp.org

Draft Agenda:
Overview                0.5 hr
Liaisons                0.5 hr
WGLC Documents            1 hr
Pull Documents            3 hr
Channel Replacement     0.5 hr
Quick Reconnect         0.5 hr
IMAP profile              1 hr
Wrap up                 0.5 hr

 <<Airportto13575office.txt>> 

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DISO-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>Proposed agenda for interim meeting</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Below is the logistics and proposed =
agenda for the LEMONADE interim meeting next week.&nbsp; Our goal is to =
close on the documents that are near completion, and spend some time =
discussing the open issues.&nbsp; Let us know if you have any comments =
on the agenda.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Glenn.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">LEMONADE WG Interim =
Meeting</FONT></B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Date: Tuesday, 12 October =
2004</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Time: 8am - 5pm</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Venue:</FONT></B>=20
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Nortel Networks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Orca Boardroom</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">13575 Commerce Pkwy, Suite =
250</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Richmond, BC&nbsp; V6V 2L1&nbsp; =
Canada</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">(see attached file for directions =
from the airport)</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Jabber:</FONT></B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">lemonade@ietf.xmpp.org</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Draft Agenda:</FONT></B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Monaco">Overview&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0.5 hr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Monaco">Liaisons&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0.5 hr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">WGLC =
Documents&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; 1 hr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Pull =
Documents&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; 3 hr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Channel =
Replacement&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0.5 hr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Quick =
Reconnect&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0.5 hr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">IMAP =
profile&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 hr</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Wrap =
up&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 0.5 hr</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" SIZE=3D2 COLOR=3D"#000000"> =
&lt;&lt;Airportto13575office.txt&gt;&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Oct  6 00:39:58 2004
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 21:33:59 -0700
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
To: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS
	or	Application-layer
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> First, it is in our experience that corporate may not open firewall
> port other than 80 and 443.

Then their only option is to run a webmail service. IMAP doesn't factor 
into this case, therefore it's not a concern of Lemonade.

> We have observed
> numerous such cases of large corporations with IMAP servers (that
> support STARTTLS) that can't be accessed by clients on GPRS, 3G or
> CDMA (etc... Take you pick) phones / smart phones even when they also
> support STARTTLS.

Why not? What's the failure mode? We need more data before we can 
determine what the actual problem is.

> When a binding / transport different than TLS is used (e.g. HTTP or
> HTTPS as described in P-IMAP) for example to address the issues
> above, it should be possible to use "application level encryption"
> and Application level compression" to achieve appropriate
> confidentiality and optimization. For example, if the solution relies
> on HTTPS, it is our experience that mobile clients (even the latest
> ones) may use (often use) older versions of SSL where application
> level encryption of the payload is needed.

This just seems like a lot of handwaving to me. What I understand you 
to be saying here is that we need to add a new IMAP extension for 
compression and security because old software uses obsolete encryption 
schemes? This makes no sense.

> Therefore, and based on the simple mechanism described in P-IMAP and
> lessons learned from real life deployments, we recommend the support
> of gzip for compression as well as an encryption mechanism as
> proposed in P-IMAP and letting the server and client turn it on when
> needed / if needed. The CAPABILITY mechanism easily takes care of
> most of the issues. Market adoption will later decide if one of the
> mechanism is superfluous. However, not to provide this mechanism may
> stifle adoption...

But every current and future IMAP server and client already have this 
in the form of the STARTTLS command. I haven't yet seen any specific 
argument put forward that shows why STARTTLS cannot work.

> In addition, as a related topic, and in order to allow use case /
> deployment model where a lemonade proxy is deployed in a service
> provider / operator domain that differs from corporate mail server,
> it is critical that application level encryption of the payload be
> possible.

Okay, fine. But until this mythical new protocol is defined it is 
pointless to even speculate about what sort of application-level 
compression or encryption it might need.

The only protocol of interest today is IMAP, and it's IMAP we are 
discussing, and IMAP addresses these issues through STARTTLS.

> We do agree with the value of being able to simply rely on STARTTLS
> when appropriate. However when STARTTLS is not supported or not
> enough, application level encryption and compression MUST be possible
> and therefore described in the Lemonade profile.

Again, support for STARTTLS is MANDATORY; the support has to be there.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "when STARTTLS is ... not 
enough."

--lyndon

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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or
	Application-layer
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 22:37:57 -0700
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Lyndon,

>> Then their only option is to run a webmail service. IMAP doesn't factor =
=

into this case, therefore it's not a concern of Lemonade.<<

I hope not... Lemonade is about "enhancing and profiling IMAP and internet =
e-mail email protocols" (see charter lemonade-charter.txt - Last Modified: =
2004-09-17). I assume that it may depend on what we understand by enhancing=
 and profiling... I would argue that it is very much the concern of Lemonad=
e. If IMAP was considering the mobile use cases, why would we need Lemonade=
? So isn't it explicitly appropriate to consider the use cases met in mobil=
e deployment that IMAP can't handle (or handle poorly, or did not consider,=
 ...) and trying to find a solution?

And, no ,webmail services do not cut it... As demonstrated by the successes=
 of different mobile e-mail offerings - users demand a better experience an=
d enterprises / service providers see business incentives in such services.=
 However, I am trying to understand if some are suggesting that because we =
do not like that a particular issue that is met in mobile environment and t=
hat can't be directly handled by IMAP as it is today, we should not strive =
to appropriately extend IMAP to address it. If it was the case, I would arg=
ue that Lemonade would not have delivered on its objectives for mobile. In =
any case, if Lemonade can't address such issues (and there are other ways t=
han webmail to do so like for example P-IMAP, WebDAV, etc...), then we may =
as well just forget about Lemonade's wide adoption or even its relevance fo=
r mobile e-mail/environments. =


I think that I have answered your other requests for clarifications in answ=
ers to previous e-mails. Let me know if something requires more details.

By now and based on some of the comments and discussions that have taken pl=
ace so far, I think that we should discuss our objectives for mobile extens=
ions and profiles at the upcoming FTF and clearly decide if we want to addr=
ess all the real life end to end mobile use cases and issues that prevent m=
obile e-mail adoption of an open standard approach or if we solely aim at a=
ddress some subset of issues of interest at the risk of leaving debilitatin=
g issues open. In the same vain, I am not sure that we got all our use case=
s right for mobile. This may also be worth re-visiting at the FTF. =


Looking forward to a good discussion in Vancouver.

Thanks

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: Lyndon Nerenberg [mailto:lyndon@orthanc.ca] =

Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 9:34 PM
To: Stephane H. Maes; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS or Application=
-layer



> First, it is in our experience that corporate may not open firewall =

> port other than 80 and 443.

Then their only option is to run a webmail service. IMAP doesn't factor =

into this case, therefore it's not a concern of Lemonade.

> We have observed
> numerous such cases of large corporations with IMAP servers (that =

> support STARTTLS) that can't be accessed by clients on GPRS, 3G or =

> CDMA (etc... Take you pick) phones / smart phones even when they also =

> support STARTTLS.

Why not? What's the failure mode? We need more data before we can =

determine what the actual problem is.

> When a binding / transport different than TLS is used (e.g. HTTP or =

> HTTPS as described in P-IMAP) for example to address the issues above, =

> it should be possible to use "application level encryption" and =

> Application level compression" to achieve appropriate confidentiality =

> and optimization. For example, if the solution relies on HTTPS, it is =

> our experience that mobile clients (even the latest
> ones) may use (often use) older versions of SSL where application =

> level encryption of the payload is needed.

This just seems like a lot of handwaving to me. What I understand you =

to be saying here is that we need to add a new IMAP extension for =

compression and security because old software uses obsolete encryption =

schemes? This makes no sense.

> Therefore, and based on the simple mechanism described in P-IMAP and =

> lessons learned from real life deployments, we recommend the support =

> of gzip for compression as well as an encryption mechanism as proposed =

> in P-IMAP and letting the server and client turn it on when needed / =

> if needed. The CAPABILITY mechanism easily takes care of most of the =

> issues. Market adoption will later decide if one of the mechanism is =

> superfluous. However, not to provide this mechanism may stifle =

> adoption...

But every current and future IMAP server and client already have this =

in the form of the STARTTLS command. I haven't yet seen any specific =

argument put forward that shows why STARTTLS cannot work.

> In addition, as a related topic, and in order to allow use case / =

> deployment model where a lemonade proxy is deployed in a service =

> provider / operator domain that differs from corporate mail server, it =

> is critical that application level encryption of the payload be =

> possible.

Okay, fine. But until this mythical new protocol is defined it is =

pointless to even speculate about what sort of application-level =

compression or encryption it might need.

The only protocol of interest today is IMAP, and it's IMAP we are =

discussing, and IMAP addresses these issues through STARTTLS.

> We do agree with the value of being able to simply rely on STARTTLS =

> when appropriate. However when STARTTLS is not supported or not =

> enough, application level encryption and compression MUST be possible =

> and therefore described in the Lemonade profile.

Again, support for STARTTLS is MANDATORY; the support has to be there.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "when STARTTLS is ... not =

enough."

--lyndon



_______________________________________________
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lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Oct  6 02:45:19 2004
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Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 23:42:33 -0700
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@orthanc.ca>
To: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLS
	or	Application-layer
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--On 2004-10-5 10:37 PM -0700 "Stephane H. Maes" 
<stephane.maes@oracle.com> wrote:

> I think that I have answered your other requests for clarifications
> in answers to previous e-mails. Let me know if something requires
> more details.

Well I've read through the whole discussion a couple of times now, and 
I still can't see a non-hypothetical reason why we would need to add 
compression and encryption to IMAP.

>From an engineering standpoint, adding these to the application 
protocol -- when both are already provided for in the protocol -- makes 
no sense at all. You're making the argument that a client and a server, 
each of which chooses to *not* implement STARTTLS (as is *mandated* by 
RFC3501) are going to implement an optional extension.

Some specific questions I have about this are:

1) Why would a vendor, who can't expend the effort to implement 
something *required* by the standard, implement something that isn't? 
Especially when by not implementing STARTTLS they are seriously 
restricting their customer base?

2) Why would a vendor who *does* properly implement the standard want 
to expend developer resources to code up and support a completely 
redundant way of doing what STARTTLS was designed to do (and already 
does)?

3) What would this extension provide that STARTTLS does not? I want to 
see a specific, real world example. You're going to be hard pressed to 
convince anyone of the need for this unless you can show a 
non-hypothetical case where STARTTLS does not work, and can not be made 
to work.

--lyndon

_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct  7 14:43:03 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression:
	TLSor	Application-layer
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 11:28:26 -0700
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I am getting more and more convinced that the differences of opinion are at=
 the level of the use cases and assumptions on what the technical solution =
is. We have different views on how the mobile issues can be addressed and t=
he work of carefully crafting the use cases and requirements in a technolog=
y agnostic manner may have to be revisited.

I am not advocating and I agree that it would be ridiculous to duplicate en=
cryption, compression or any other technology if already provided in ways t=
hat fulfill the requirements. That's not the goal. However, I do believe th=
at there are use cases that we can't support today and need to find ways to=
 address.

We should discuss this more in details in Vancouver.

More in line below marked as <SM> .... </SM>.

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Lyndon Nerenberg
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 11:43 PM
To: Stephane H. Maes; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Call the Question - Compression: TLSor Application-=
layer


--On 2004-10-5 10:37 PM -0700 "Stephane H. Maes" =

<stephane.maes@oracle.com> wrote:

> I think that I have answered your other requests for clarifications in =

> answers to previous e-mails. Let me know if something requires more =

> details.

Well I've read through the whole discussion a couple of times now, and =

I still can't see a non-hypothetical reason why we would need to add =

compression and encryption to IMAP.

>From an engineering standpoint, adding these to the application
protocol -- when both are already provided for in the protocol -- makes =

no sense at all. =

<SM> Agreed BUT I do believe (and that's where we differ) that there are ca=
ses where we may not be able to rely on the same transport mechanisms and m=
ay not be able to use STARTTLS or it is not sufficient and I think that the=
y are in scope of our work. And so I believe that more needs to be done to =
support these cases and vendors will do that investments if they want to su=
pport such cases i.e. if there is a market demand for it.</SM>
 =

You're making the argument that a client and a server, =

each of which chooses to *not* implement STARTTLS (as is *mandated* by =

RFC3501) are going to implement an optional extension. =


<SM> Not exactly. I am stating that a client may not be implementing RFC350=
1 but whatever will be the lemonade profile. Hence STARTTLS may not apply o=
r as re-explained below may not be sufficient. I am a bit confused BTW on t=
he view that client and server WILL implement RFC3501. We are talking of a =
lemonade client talking to a lemonade server.... In my view, they may prese=
nt variations with respevct to RFC3501 even if compatibility / interwworkin=
g with RFC3501 is to be addressed...</SM>

Some specific questions I have about this are:

1) Why would a vendor, who can't expend the effort to implement =

something *required* by the standard, implement something that isn't? =

Especially when by not implementing STARTTLS they are seriously =

restricting their customer base? =


<SM> Because they would want to support use cases / deployment patterns whe=
re STARTTLS can't be used (e.g. firewall with restricted opened ports) or d=
oes not address all aspects (e.g. end to end encryption when using a lemona=
de proxy. </SM>

2) Why would a vendor who *does* properly implement the standard want =

to expend developer resources to code up and support a completely =

redundant way of doing what STARTTLS was designed to do (and already =

does)?

<SM> I am not agreeing that profiles or extensions of a protocol are still =
the protocol... So may be we are miscommunicating. So for the sake of discu=
ssion, Lemonade profile may not mandate STARTTLS or transport that support =
STARTTLS... When the vendor selects not to use (e.g. to support other relev=
ant use cases), there would not be any redundancy...</SM>

3) What would this extension provide that STARTTLS does not? I want to =

see a specific, real world example. You're going to be hard pressed to =

convince anyone of the need for this unless you can show a =

non-hypothetical case where STARTTLS does not work, and can not be made =

to work.

<SM> As one example: a Service Provider (operator) deploys a Lemonade proxy=
 that communicates to lemonade clients and e-mail servers in enterprise dom=
ain. Encryption of the content of the messages is required to avoid message=
s in the clear in the SP proxy. The extension would allow to request such e=
ncryption.</SM>

--lyndon

_______________________________________________
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lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade



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In an actual implementation of forward without download in what folder =
did the authors envision the temporary message created by CATENATE be =
stored?

I realize the drafts are written in such a way as to allow any folder to =
be used, which seems totally correct to me. Should the target folder be =
a special folder the IMAP server creates for this purpose? Maybe each =
client creates a special folder? Should the user see this transient =
message in the folder?

In a way this is a server side Outbox folder, but only for certain =
messages.

Mike



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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Target directory for CATENATE in forward without
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On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
> In an actual implementation of forward without download in what folder 
> did the authors envision the temporary message created by CATENATE be 
> stored?

I suggest that this name be defined by the client, although there should 
be a convention defined for clients that are willing to cooperate.

I suggest that the name *NOT* be OUTBOX or "Sent Items".

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
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Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2004 14:19:25 -0700
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Eric and Glenn,

Could you add an agenda item devoted to the use cases, objectives and scope=
 of using Lemonade for Mobile and the lemonade profile. I am willing to pre=
pare a presentation on the use cases, challenges and requirements of mobile=
 e-mail to initiate a discussion on how and what Lemonade plans to address =
among these issues. It should precede the profile and mobile discussions.

Also note that we have loaded draft-smaes-lemonade-s2c-notification-reqs-00=
.txt per the action item from San Diego. This should also be added to the a=
genda.

I have also submitted a revision to P-IMAP as draft-maes-lemonade-p-imap-04=
.txt.

Thanks

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

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I have mostly very minor comments on urlauth-02.  I apologize for 
attaching the entire draft, but my comments are in-line (look for 
">>>>" at the left margin) and the file is only 28,874 octets.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
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true.  I have the heart of a young boy  -- in a jar on my desk.
                                           --Steven King, 3/8/90
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Network Working Group                                         M. 
Crispin
INTERNET-DRAFT: IMAP URLAUTH                    University of 
Washington
 
September 2004
Document: 
internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-urlauth-02.txt

     Internet 
Message Access Protocol (IMAP) - URLAUTH Extension


Status of this 
Memo

    By submitting this Internet-Draft, I certify that any 
applicable
    patent or other IPR claims of which I am aware have 
been disclosed, or
    will be disclosed, and any of which I become 
aware will be disclosed,
    in accordance with RFC 3668.

 
Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
 
Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that
 
other groups may also distribute working documents as
 
Internet-Drafts.

    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a 
maximum of six months
    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted 
by other documents at any
    time.  It is inappropriate to use 
Internet-Drafts as reference
    material or to cite them other than 
as "work in progress."

    The list of current Internet-Drafts can 
be accessed at
    http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt

    To 
view the list Internet-Draft Shadow Directories, see
 
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.

    A revised version of this 
document will be submitted to the RFC
    editor as an Informational 
Document for the Internet Community.

    A revised version of this 
draft document will be submitted to the RFC
    editor as a Proposed 
Standard for the Internet Community.  Discussion
    and suggestions 
for improvement are requested, and should be sent to
 
lemonade@IETF.ORG.  This document will expire before 30 March 2005.
 
Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

;;; POINTS FOR 
DISCUSSION:
;;;
;;; This document was formerly known as 
draft-crispin-imap-urlauth.  The
;;; 00 version of this document is 
identical to the 09 version of that
;;; document.
;;;
;;; Earlier 
versions of this document had access identifiers for "any
;;; 
authorized user" and anonymous.  These were not needed for 
Lemonade
;;; submit-without-download and were removed.  Should 
something of this
;;; nature be put back in?
>>>> or as 
extensions

Abstract

    This document describes the URLAUTH 
extension to the Internet
    Message Access Protocol (IMAP) (RFC 
3501) and the IMAP URL Scheme
    (IMAPURL) (RFC 2192).  This 
extension provides a means by which an
    IMAP client can use URLs 
carrying authorization to access limited
    message data on the IMAP 
server.

    An IMAP server which supports this extension indicates 
this with a
    capability name of "URLAUTH".


Conventions Used in 
this Document

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "SHOULD", 
"SHOULD NOT", and "MAY"
    in this document are to be interpreted as 
defined in [KEYWORDS].

    The formal syntax uses the Augmented 
Backus-Naur Form (ABNF)
    notation including the core rules defined 
in Appendix A of [ABNF].

    In examples, "C:" and "S:" indicate 
lines sent by the client and
    server respectively.  If a single 
"C:" or "S:" label applies to
    multiple lines, then the line 
breaks between those lines are for
    editorial clarity only and are 
not part of the actual protocol
    exchange.


Introduction

    In 
[IMAPURL], a URL of the form imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
 
requires authorization as userid "fred".

    The URLAUTH extension 
provides a means by which an authorized user of an
    IMAP server 
can create URLAUTH authorized IMAP URLs.  A URLAUTH
    authorized 
URL conveys authorization (not authentication) to the data
 
addressed by that URL, and can be used in another IMAP session to 
access
    specific content on the IMAP server without otherwise 
providing
    authorization to any other data owned by the 
authorizing user (including
    other data in the mailbox specified 
in the URL).

    A URLAUTH authorized URL can be used in the 
argument to the BURL command
    in message composition, as described 
in [BURL], for such purposes as a
    memory (or other resource) 
constrainted client submitting a message
    forward or resend from 
an IMAP mailbox without requiring the client to
    fetch that 
message data.

    The URLAUTH is generated using an authorization 
mechanism name and an
    authorization token, which is generated 
using a secret mailbox
    access key.  An IMAP client can request 
the server to generate and
    assign a new mailbox access key (thus 
effectively revoking all current
    URLs using URLAUTH with that 
mailbox access key) but can not set the
>>>> 
^^^^ "the prior" or "the current"
    mailbox access key to a key of 
its own choosing.


1. Concepts

1.1. URLAUTH

    The URLAUTH is a 
component, appended at the end of a URL, which conveys
 
authorization to access the data addressed by that URL.  It contains 
an
    authorized access identifier, an authorization mechanism name, 
and an
    authorization token which is generated from the URL, the 
authorized access
    identifer, authorization mechanism name, and a 
mailbox access key.

1.2. Mailbox Access Key

    The mailbox access 
key is a random string with at least 128 bits of
    entropy.  It is 
generated by software (not by the human user), and MUST
    be 
unpredictable.

    Each user has a table of mailboxes and an 
associated mailbox access key
    for each mailbox.  Consequently, 
the mailbox access key is per-user and
    per-mailbox.  In other 
words, two users sharing the same mailbox each have
    a different 
mailbox access key for that mailbox; and each mailbox accessed
    by 
a single user also has different mailbox access key.
>>>> 
^ 'a'

1.3. Authorized Access Identifier

    The authorized access 
identifier restricts use of the URLAUTH authorized
    URL to certain 
users authorized on the server, as described in section 2.

1.4. 
Authorization Mechanism

    The authorization mechanism is the 
algorithm by which the URLAUTH is
    generated and subsequently 
verified, using the mailbox access key.

    This specification 
defines the INTERNAL mechanism, which uses a token
    generation 
algorithm of the server's choosing (a modern and reasonably
 
secure [HMAC] such as HMAC-SHA1 is recommended) and does not involve
 
disclosure of the mailbox access key to the client.

>>>> might want 
to have some discussion of how the server can move from
>>>> one 
algorthim to another.  For example, perhaps the server keeps
>>>> 
track of the algorithm along with the secret in the table (or 
does
>>>> so if it ever changes to a new algorithm), allowing new 
algorithms
>>>> to be gradually deployed without invalidating 
existing URLs; what
>>>> if a defect is discovered in the current 
algorithm and the server
>>>> admin feels it neccessary to revoke all 
existing URLs?  Does the
>>>> server issue untagged URLAUTH responses 
to clients when they log
>>>> in?

    Although this specification is 
extensible for other mechanisms, none
    are defined in this 
document.

1.5. Authorization Token

    The authorization token is a 
deterministic string of at least 128 bits
    which an entity with 
knowledge of the secret mailbox access key and URL
    authorization 
mechanism can use to verify the URL.


2. IMAP URL Extensions

 
[IMAPURL] is extended by allowing the addition of 
;EXPIRE=<datetime>"
    and ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" to 
IMAP URLs which refer to
    specific message or message parts.

 
";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" (the URLAUTH) MUST be at the end 
of
    the URL.

    URLAUTH does not apply to, and MUST NOT be used 
with, any IMAP URL which
    refers to an entire IMAP server, list of 
mailboxes, an entire IMAP
    mailbox, or IMAP search results.

 
When ";EXPIRE=<datetime>" is used, this indicates the latest date 
and
    time that the URL is valid.  After that date and time, the 
URL has
    expired and server implementations MUST reject the URL. 
If
    ";EXPIRE=<datetime>" is not used, the URL has no expiration, 
but still
    can be revoked as discussed below.

 
";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" indicates the access identifiers
 
which arepermitted to use this URL, the authorization mechanism, and
 
the authorization token.

    The "submit+" access identifier, 
followed by a userid, indicates that
    only a userid authorized as 
a message submission entity on behalf of the
    specified userid is 
permitted to use this URL.  The IMAP server does not
    validate the 
specified userid but does validate that the IMAP session
    has an 
authorization identity that is authorized as a message submission
 
entity.  The authorized message submission entity MUST validate the
 
userid prior to contacting the IMAP server.

    The "user+" access 
identifier, followed by a userid, indicates that use
    of this URL 
is limited to IMAP sessions which are logged in as the
    specified 
userid (that is, have authorization identity as that userid).
>>>> 
worth mentioning for additional clarification that if a SASL mech is 

>>>> used whichy provides both authorization and authentication 
identifiers,
>>>> it is the authorization id that is matched?

 
The authorization token is represented as an ASCII-encoded 
hexadecimal
    string, which is used to authorize the URL.  The 
length and the
    calculation of the authorization token depends 
upon the mechanism used;
    but in all cases the authorization token 
is at least 128 bits (and
    therefore 32 hexadecimal digits).
>>>> 
^ "at least"


3. Discussion of URLAUTH Authorization Issues

    In 
[IMAPURL], the userid before the "@" in the URL has two purposes:
 
1) It provides context for user-specific mailbox paths such
 
as "INBOX".
       2) It specifies that resolution of the URL 
requires logging in as
          that user and limits use of that URL 
to only that user.
    An obvious limitation of using the same field 
for both purposes is that
    the URL can only be resolved by the 
mailbox owner.

    URLAUTH overrides the second purpose of the 
userid in the IMAP URL and
    by default permits the URL to be 
resolved by any user permitted by the
    access identifier.

    The 
"user+<userid>" access identifier limits resolution of that URL to a
 
particular userid, whereas the "submit+<userid>" access identifier 
is
    more general and simply requires the session be authorized by 
a user
    that has been granted a "submit" role within the 
authentication system.

    This makes it impossible for an attacker, 
spying on the session, to use
    the same URL, either directly or by 
submission to a message submission
    entity.


4. Generation of 
URLAUTH authorized URLs

    A URLAUTH authorized URL is generated 
from an initial URL as follows.

    An initial URL is built, ending 
with ";URLAUTH=<access>" but without the
    ":<mech>:<token>" 
components.  An authorization mechanism is selected
    and used to 
calculate the authorization token, with the initial URL as
    the 
data and a secret known to the IMAP server as the key.  The URLAUTH
 
authorized URL is generated by taking the initial URL and appending 
":",
    the URL authorization mechanism name, ":", and the 
ASCII-encoded
    hexadecimal representation of the authorization 
token.

       Note: ASCII-encoded hexadecimal is used instead of 
BASE64 because a
       BASE64 representation may have "=" padding 
characters which would be
       problematic in a URL.

    In the 
INTERNAL mechanism, the mailbox access key for that mailbox is
 
the secret known to the IMAP server, and a server-selected algorithm
 
such as HMAC-SHA1 is used to to calculate the authorization 
token.

>>>> refer to earlier discussion of how algorithm can be 
changed (if you
>>>> add such a discussion)


5. Validation of 
URLAUTH authorized URLs

    A URLAUTH authorized URL is validated as 
follows.

    The URL is split at the ":" which separates "<access>" 
from
    "<mech>:<token>" in the ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" 
portion of
    the URL.  The "<mech>:<token>" portion is first parsed 
and saved as the
    authorization mechanism and the authorization 
token.  The URL is
    truncated, discarding the ":" described above, 
to create a "rump URL"
    (the URL minus the":" and the 
"<mech>:<token>" portion).  The rump URL
    is then analyzed to 
identify the mailbox.

    If the mailbox cannot be identified, an 
authorization token is
    calculated on the rump URL, using random 
"plausible" keys (selected by
    the server) as needed, before 
returning a validation failure.  This
    prevents timing attacks 
aimed at identifying mailbox names.

    If the mailbox can be 
identified, the authorization token is calculated
    on the rump URL 
and a secret known to the IMAP server using the given
    URL 
authorization mechanism.  Validation is successful if, and only if,
 
the calculated authorization token for that mechanism matches the
 
authorization token supplied in ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>".

 
Removal of the ":<mech>:<token>" portion of the URL MUST be the only
 
operation applied to the URLAUTH authorized URL to get the rump URL. 
In
    particular, URL percent escape decoding and case-folding MUST 
NOT occur.

    In the INTERNAL mechanism, the mailbox access key for 
that mailbox is
    used as the secret known to the IMAP server, and 
the same
    server-selected algorithm used for generating URLs is 
used to calculate
    the authorization token for verification.

>>>> 
refer to earlier discussion of how algorithm can be changed (if 
you
>>>> add such a discussion)


6. Additional Commands

    These 
commands are extension to the [IMAP] base protocol.

    The section 
headings of these commands are intended to correspond with
    where 
they would be located in the base protocol document if they were
 
part of that document.

BASE.6.3.RESETKEY.  RESETKEY Command

 
Arguments:  optional mailbox name
                optional mechanism 
name(s)

    Responses:  none other than in result

    Result: 
OK - RESETKEY completed, URLMECH containing new data
 
NO - RESETKEY error: can't change key of that mailbox
 
BAD - command unknown or arguments invalid

    The RESETKEY command 
has two forms.

    The first form accepts a mailbox name as an 
argument, and generates
    a new mailbox access key for the given 
mailbox in the user's
    mailbox access key table, replacing any 
previous mailbox access key
    (and revoking any URLs that were 
authorized with a URLAUTH using
    that key) in that table.  By 
default, the mailbox access key is
    generated for the INTERNAL 
mechanism; other mechanisms can be
    specified with the optional 
mechanism argument.

    The second form, with no arguments, removes 
all mailbox access keys
    in the user's mailbox access key table, 
revoking all URLs current
>>>> 
^   ly
    authorized using URLAUTH by the user.

    Any current 
IMAP session logged in as the user which has the mailbox
    selected 
will receive an untagged OK response with the URLMECH
    status 
response code.

>>>> need more information on the data returned in 
the OK response, including
>>>> the "mechs" shown in your example

 
Example:

       C: a31 RESETKEY
       S: a31 OK All keys removed
 
C: a32 RESETKEY INBOX
       S: a32 OK [URLMECH INTERNAL] mechs
 
C: a33 RESETKEY INBOX XSAMPLE
       S: a33 OK [URLMECH INTERNAL 
XSAMPLE=P34OKhO7VEkCbsiYY8rGEg==] mechs


BASE.6.3.GENURLAUTH. 
GENURLAUTH Command

    Argument:   one or more URL/mechanism pairs

 
Response:   untagged response: GENURLAUTH

    Result:     OK - 
GENURLAUTH completed
                NO - GENURLAUTH error: can't 
generate a URLAUTH
                BAD - command unknown or arguments 
invalid

    The GENURLAUTH command requests the server to generate a 
URLAUTH
    authorized URL for each of the given URLs using the given 
URL
    authorization mechanism.

    If the command is successful, a 
GENURLAUTH response code is returned
    listing the requested URLs 
as URLAUTH authorized URLs.

    Example:

       Note that lines 
which do not begin with "C:" or "S:" are
       continuations of the 
previous line for typographical clarity and
       are not separate 
lines in the protocol.

       C: a777 GENURLAUTH "imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
 
;urlauth=submit+fred" INTERNAL
       S: * GENURLAUTH 
"imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
 
;urlauth=submit+fred:internal:
 
91354a473744909de610943775f92038"
       S: a777 OK GENURLAUTH 
completed


BASE.6.3.URLFETCH.  URLFETCH Command

    Argument: 
URL
>>>> one URL or multiple?

    Response:   untagged response: 
URLFETCH

    Result:     OK - urlfetch completed
                NO 
- urlfetch failed due to server internal error
                BAD - 
command unknown or arguments invalid

    The URLFETCH command 
requests that the server return the text data
    associated with an 
IMAP URLs, as described in [IMAPURL] and extended by
>>>> 
^^         ^  (singular vs. plural)
    this document.  The data is 
returned for all validated URLs, regardless
>>>> 
^^^
    of whether or not the session would otherwise be able to 
access the
    mailbox containing that data via SELECT or examine.

 
Note: This command does not require that the URL refer to the
 
selected mailbox; nor does it require that any mailbox be
 
selected.  It also does not in any way interfere with any selected
 
mailbox.

    The URLFETCH command MUST return an untagged URLFETCH 
response and
    a tagged OK response to any URLFETCH command that is 
syntactically
    valid.  A NO response indicates a server internal 
failure which may
    be resolved on later retry.

       Note: the 
possibility of a NO response is to accommodate
       implementations 
which would otherwise have to issue an
       untagged BYE with a 
fatal error due to an inability to
       respond to a valid request. 
In an ideal world, a server
       SHOULD NOT issue a NO response.

 
The server MUST return NIL for any IMAP URL which returns to an
>>>> 
^^ (delete)
    entire IMAP server, list of mailboxes, an entire IMAP 
mailbox, or
    IMAP search results.

    Example

       Note that 
lines which do not begin with "C:" or "S:" are
       continuations 
of the previous line for typographical clarity and
       are not 
separate lines in the protocol.  For clarity, this example
 
uses the LOGIN command which SHOULD NOT be used over a non-encrypted
 
communication path.

       This example is of a submit server, 
obtaining a message segment for
       a message that it has already 
validated was submitted by "fred".

       S: * OK [CAPABILITY 
IMAP4REV1 URLAUTH] example.com IMAP server ready
       C: a001 LOGIN 
submitserver secret
       S: a001 OK submitserver logged in
 
C: a002 URLFETCH "imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
 
;urlauth=submit+fred:internal:
 
91354a473744909de610943775f92038"
       S: * URLFETCH 
"imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
 
;urlauth=submit+fred:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038" {28}
 
S: Si vis pacem, para bellum.
       S:
       S: a002 OK URLFETCH 
completed


7. Additional Responses

    These responses are 
extensions to the [IMAP] base protocol.

    The section headings of 
these responses are intended to correspond with
    where they would 
be located in the base protocol document if they were
    part of 
that document.

BASE.7.1.URLMECH.  URLMECH Status Response Code

 
The URLMECH status response code is followed by a list of URL 
authorization
    mechanism names.  Mechanism names other than 
INTERNAL may be appended
    with an "=" and BASE64 encoded form of 
mechanism specific data.

    This status response code is returned 
in an untagged OK response in
    response to a RESETKEY, SELECT, or 
EXAMINE command.


BASE.7.4.URLFETCH.  URLFETCH Response

 
Contents:   URL/nstring pair

    The URLFETCH response returns the 
message text data associated with an
    IMAP URLs, as described in 
[IMAPURL] and extended by this document.
    This response occurs as 
the result of a URLFETCH command.

    The returned data string is 
NIL if the URL is invalid for any reason
    (including validation 
failure).  If the URL is valid, but the IMAP
    fetch of the body 
part returned NIL (this should not happen), the
    returned data 
string should be the empty string ("") and not NIL.

    Example:

 
C: a33 RESETKEY INBOX XSAMPLE
       S: a33 OK [URLMECH INTERNAL 
XSAMPLE=P34OKhO7VEkCbsiYY8rGEg==] mechs
>>>> I think this example is 
for URLMECH; need example for URLFETCH here

8. Formal Syntax

 
The following syntax specification uses the Augmented Backus-Naur
 
Form (ABNF) notation as specified in [ABNF].

    The following 
modifications are made to the Formal Syntax in [IMAP]:

resetkey 
= "RESETKEY" [SP mailbox *(SP mechanism)]

command-auth    =/ 
resetkey / genurlauth / urlfetch

resp-text-code  =/ "URLMECH" SP 
"INTERNAL" *(SP mechanism ["=" base64])

genurlauth      = 
"GENURLAUTH" 1*(SP url SP mechanism)

genurlauth-data = "*" SP 
"GENURLAUTH" 1*(SP url)
>>>> this shows plural, should update the 
command description to reflect this

url             = astring
 
; contains imapurl as defined below

urlfetch        = "URLFETCH" SP 
url

urlfetch-data   = "*" SP "URLFETCH" SP url SP nstring

    The 
following modifications are made to the Formal Syntax in 
[IMAPURL]:

enc-urlauth     = 32*HEXDIG

imessagepart    = 
enc_mailbox [uidvalidity] iuid [isection] [iurlauth]

iurlauth 
= [expire] ";URLAUTH=" access ":" mechanism ":" enc-urlauth

access 
= ("submit+" iuserauth) / ("user+" iuserauth)

expire          = 
";EXPIRE=" date-time
                     ; date-time defined in 
[DATETIME]

mechanism       = "INTERNAL" / 1*uchar
 
; new mechanisms MUST be registered with IANA

9. Security 
Considerations

    Security considerations are discussed throughout 
this memo.

    The mailbox access key SHOULD have at least 128 bits 
of entropy (refer
    to [RANDOM] for more details) and MUST be 
unpredictable.

    The URLMECH status response code may expose 
sensitive data in the
    mechanism specific data for mechanisms 
other than INTERNAL.  A server
    implementation MUST implement a 
configuration that will not return
    a URLMECH status response code 
unless some mechanism is provided
    that protects the session from 
snooping, such as a TLS or SASL
    security layer that provides 
confidentiality protection.

    The calculation of a authorization 
token with a "plausible" key if the
    mailbox can not be identified 
is necessary to avoid attacks in which the
    server is probed to 
see if a particular mailbox exists on the server by
    measuring the 
amount of time taken to reject a known bad name vs. some
    other 
name.

    To protect against a computational denial-of-service 
attack, a server
    MAY impose progressively longer delays on 
multiple URL requests that
    fail validation.


IANA 
Considerations

    URLAUTH authorization mechanisms are registered 
by publishing a
    standards track or IESG approved experimental 
RFC.  The registry is
    currently located at:

         [to be 
defined by IANA]

    This document consitutes registration of the 
INTERNAL URLAUTH
    authorization mechanism.

    IMAP URLAUTH 
Authorization Mechanism Registry

    Mechanism Name 
Reference
    --------------               ---------
    INTERNAL 
[this document, to be filled in by IANA]


References

    The 
following references are normative:

    [ABNF]     Crocker, D. and 
P. Overell, "Augmented BNF for Syntax
               Specifications: 
ABNF", RFC 2234, November 1997.

    [BURL]     Newman, C., "Message 
Submission BURL Extension",
 
draft-newman-lemonade-burl-00.txt (work in progress),
 
March 2004.

    [DATETIME] Klyne, G., and Newman, C., "Date and Time 
on the Internet:
               Timestamps", RFC 3339, July 2002.

 
[IMAP]     Crispin, M., "Internet Message Access Protocol - Version
 
4rev1", RFC 3501, March 2003.

    [IMAPURL]  Newman, C., "IMAP URL 
Scheme", RFC 2192, September 1997.

    [KEYWORDS] Bradner, S., "Key 
words for use in RFCs to Indicate
               Requirement Levels", 
BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

    The following references are 
informative:

    [HMAC]     Krawczyk, H., Bellare, M., and Canetti, 
R., "HMAC:
               Keyed-Hashing for Message Authentication", 
RFC 2104,
 	      February 1997.

    [RANDOM]   Eastlake, D., 
Crocker, S., and Schiller, J., "Randomness
 
Recommendations for Security", RFC 1750, December 1994.

Author's 
Addresses

    Mark R. Crispin
    Networks and Distributed 
Computing
    University of Washington
    4545 15th Avenue NE
 
Seattle, WA  98105-4527

    Phone: (206) 543-5762
    EMail: 
MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU

    Chris Newman
    Sun Microsystems
 
1050 Lakes Drive
    West Covina, CA  91790

    EMail: 
chris.newman@sun.com


IPR Disclosure Acknowledgement

    By 
submitting this Internet-Draft, I certify that any applicable
 
patent or other IPR claims of which I am aware have been disclosed,
 
and any of which I become aware will be disclosed, in accordance 
with
    RFC 3668.


Intellectual Property Statement

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intellectual property or other rights that might be claimed to
 
pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in
 
this document or the extent to which any license under such rights
 
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From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
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The Abstract and Introduction make a number of very sweeping 
assertions ("notoriously slow", "nearly unusable due to the 
inordinate amount of time spent waiting", "users tend to give up on 
the email client on their mobile terminal") -- are these backed up by 
data?

The assumption that nothing has changed on the mail store in a short 
time is suspect, and likely to vary widely per user.

More importantly, it seems to me that the benefits proposed are 
rather limited and are only useful when a client reconnects after a 
brief disconnect.  A mechanism that allowed a client to more 
efficiently determine what has changed since it was last connected 
would, it seems to me, be more broadly useful for all clients, and 
confer much greater benefits to mobile clients than what is proposed 
here.  For example, something such as the ACAP DELETEDSINCE command 
and ability to ask the server for items changed since a certain time. 
We are already moving towards this with CONDSTORE, UIDNEXT, etc.

In Section 2 (Introduction), use of ANNOTATE would allow flags to be 
searched using a modtime, which would avoid the 'UID fetch 1:* 
(FLAGS)' command in the example.  Also, note that the example fecthes 
flags, not headers (the text says twice that headers are fetched).

Preserving sessions during short periods of dropped connectivity is a 
TCP property, and does not need separate IMAP functionality.  Perhaps 
a discussion of client and server TCP implementations would help.

Allowing clients to more efficiently resynchronize is a worthy goal, 
but should have broader applicability.  It seems to me that what 
clients need to know is: have any new messages arrived or existing 
messages been changed or deleted since last time?  It also would 
benefit from knowing if a message moved, but that is much trickier.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Most of our so-called reasoning consists in finding arguments for going
on believing as we already do.                  --James Harvey Robinson

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When a disconnected client reconnects and performs a synchronization it =
will often be interested in more then a single folder. How does this =
draft address a complete resynchronization across multiple folders?

Mike


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct 12 08:04:25 2004
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Randall Gellens wrote:

> The Abstract and Introduction make a number of very sweeping 
> assertions ("notoriously slow", "nearly unusable due to the inordinate 
> amount of time spent waiting", "users tend to give up on the email 
> client on their mobile terminal") -- are these backed up by data?

I will let Corby to comment on this ;-).

> The assumption that nothing has changed on the mail store in a short 
> time is suspect, and likely to vary widely per user.

This is not a requirement.

> More importantly, it seems to me that the benefits proposed are rather 
> limited and are only useful when a client reconnects after a brief 
> disconnect.

This is not the case and if the document mislead you to believe this, I 
think it should be fixed.

>   A mechanism that allowed a client to more efficiently determine what 
> has changed since it was last connected would, it seems to me, be more 
> broadly useful for all clients, and confer much greater benefits to 
> mobile clients than what is proposed here.  For example, something 
> such as the ACAP DELETEDSINCE command and ability to ask the server 
> for items changed since a certain time.

Look at section 3.3, it is very much what you are asking for. I would 
like to give a warning that the section is missing some text and 
examples and the syntax is more likely to change.

> We are already moving towards this with CONDSTORE, UIDNEXT, etc.

Actually, the RECONNECT extension depends on CONDSTORE and provides 
something similar to DELETEDSINCE functionality.

> In Section 2 (Introduction), use of ANNOTATE

Did you mean CONDSTORE?

> would allow flags to be searched using a modtime, which would avoid 
> the 'UID fetch 1:* (FLAGS)' command in the example.  Also, note that 
> the example fetches flags, not headers (the text says twice that 
> headers are fetched).

I've fixed that in my copy, thanks.

> Preserving sessions during short periods of dropped connectivity is a 
> TCP property, and does not need separate IMAP functionality.  Perhaps 
> a discussion of client and server TCP implementations would help.

Sure. Any suggested text :-)?

> Allowing clients to more efficiently resynchronize is a worthy goal, 
> but should have broader applicability.  It seems to me that what 
> clients need to know is: have any new messages arrived or existing 
> messages been changed or deleted since last time?

See above.

>   It also would benefit from knowing if a message moved, but that is 
> much trickier.

Maybe. I am not sure how one would detect "moving" a message, as there 
is no IMAP MOVE command, only COPY + STORE \Deleted. Does this mean that 
the server should report locations of all copies of a message?

Alexey


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Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>When a disconnected client reconnects and performs a synchronization it will often be interested in more then a single folder. How does this draft address a complete resynchronization across multiple folders?
>  
>
In order to achieve synchronization accross multiple mailboxes, one has 
to use CONDSTORE extension (draft-ietf-imapext-condstore-XX.txt) and/or 
follow the regular IMAP synchronization sequence described in 
draft-melnikov-imap-disc-05.txt.


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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com">Michael.Wener@nokia.com</a> wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid225A4E03D0EE5245A5C5F7E7B7C1F27A016D3AD8@daebe005.americas.nokia.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">When a disconnected client reconnects and performs a synchronization it will often be interested in more then a single folder. How does this draft address a complete resynchronization across multiple folders?
  </pre>
</blockquote>
In order to achieve synchronization accross multiple mailboxes, one has
to use CONDSTORE extension (<span lang="EN-US">draft-ietf-imapext-condstore-XX.txt)
and/or follow the regular IMAP synchronization sequence described in
draft-melnikov-imap-disc-05.txt.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span>
</body>
</html>

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Alexey Melnikov writes:
> Randall Gellens wrote:
>
>> The Abstract and Introduction make a number of very sweeping 
>> assertions ("notoriously slow", "nearly unusable due to the 
>> inordinate amount of time spent waiting", "users tend to give up on 
>> the email client on their mobile terminal") -- are these backed up 
>> by data?
>
> I will let Corby to comment on this ;-).

I want to comment.

The last mobile client I used started life by sending something very 
much like this:

1 LIST "" "*"
2 SELECT INBOX
3 FETCH 1:* BODY.PEEK[HEADER FLAGS]

A commercial product. The thing cost several hundred euro. I don't need 
data to call that "notoriously slow", "nearly unusable" or worse.

I wanted to comment because I have questions: Are there any mobile 
clients that use IMAP well? If so, which? And do its/their authors 
think IMAP needs new extensions for mobile use?

Arnt

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Mark Crispin wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
>
>> In an actual implementation of forward without download in what 
>> folder did the authors envision the temporary message created by 
>> CATENATE be stored?
>
> I suggest that this name be defined by the client, although there 
> should be a convention defined for clients that are willing to cooperate.

IMHO, any such convention should be exposed in NAMESPACE command.

> I suggest that the name *NOT* be OUTBOX or "Sent Items".

This can be something like "Drafts" and messages are moved to Outbox 
when they are sent.

An alternative is to just mark a catenated message with a special flag 
(or even \Draft?): a smart client will be able to deal with any such 
message no matter which mailbox it is in.

Alexey


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Subject: RE: [lemonade] RECONNECT-02 Comment
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If CONDSTORE solves the problem for multiple folders then why doesn't it =
solve it for a single folder? What is the latest version of CONDSTORE?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Alexey Melnikov [mailto:Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:06 AM

Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:=20
When a disconnected client reconnects and performs a synchronization it =
will often be interested in more then a single folder. How does this =
draft address a complete resynchronization across multiple folders?
 =20
In order to achieve synchronization accross multiple mailboxes, one has =
to use CONDSTORE extension (draft-ietf-imapext-condstore-XX.txt) and/or =
follow the regular IMAP synchronization sequence described in =
draft-melnikov-imap-disc-05.txt.

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Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>If CONDSTORE solves the problem for multiple folders then why doesn't it solve it for a single folder? What is the latest version of CONDSTORE?
>  
>
1). RECONNECT reduces number of round trips by combining LOGIN with SELECT.
2). CONDSTORE doesn't notify the client about expunged messages. The 
client still has to do a SEARCH or FETCH to achieve this. RECONNECT also 
tries to address this.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Alexey Melnikov [mailto:Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:06 AM
>
>Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote: 
>When a disconnected client reconnects and performs a synchronization it will often be interested in more then a single folder. How does this draft address a complete resynchronization across multiple folders?
>  
>In order to achieve synchronization accross multiple mailboxes, one has to use CONDSTORE extension (draft-ietf-imapext-condstore-XX.txt) and/or follow the regular IMAP synchronization sequence described in draft-melnikov-imap-disc-05.txt.
>  
>


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Alexey Melnikov [mailto:Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:39 AM
>=20
...
> > I suggest that the name *NOT* be OUTBOX or "Sent Items".
>=20
> This can be something like "Drafts" and messages are moved to Outbox=20
> when they are sent.
>=20
> An alternative is to just mark a catenated message with a=20
> special flag=20
> (or even \Draft?): a smart client will be able to deal with any such=20
> message no matter which mailbox it is in.

Wouldn't mixing this with draft semantics require the solution to be =
"draft friendly?" Once it is it becomes in effect a draft.

Mike

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To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, lemonade@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
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At 2:28 PM +0200 10/12/04, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

>  Alexey Melnikov writes:
>>  Randall Gellens wrote:
>>
>>>  The Abstract and Introduction make a number of very sweeping 
>>> assertions ("notoriously slow", "nearly unusable due to the 
>>> inordinate amount of time spent waiting", "users tend to give up 
>>> on the email client on their mobile terminal") -- are these 
>>> backed up by data?
>>
>>  I will let Corby to comment on this ;-).
>
>  I want to comment.
>
>  The last mobile client I used started life by sending something 
> very much like this:
>
>  1 LIST "" "*"
>  2 SELECT INBOX
>  3 FETCH 1:* BODY.PEEK[HEADER FLAGS]
>
>  A commercial product. The thing cost several hundred euro. I don't 
> need data to call that "notoriously slow", "nearly unusable" or 
> worse.
>
>  I wanted to comment because I have questions: Are there any mobile 
> clients that use IMAP well? If so, which? And do its/their authors 
> think IMAP needs new extensions for mobile use?

So should we perhaps produce an Informational or BCP that gives 
advice on good use of IMAP?  Perhaps this document should include an 
example of good use of IMAP and then show which problems still remain?
--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
In the beginning was the word...and it was the wrong length.
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At 12:48 PM +0100 10/12/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  Randall Gellens wrote:
>
>>  The Abstract and Introduction make a number of very sweeping 
>> assertions ("notoriously slow", "nearly unusable due to the 
>> inordinate amount of time spent waiting", "users tend to give up 
>> on the email client on their mobile terminal") -- are these backed 
>> up by data?
>
>  I will let Corby to comment on this ;-).
>
>>  The assumption that nothing has changed on the mail store in a 
>> short time is suspect, and likely to vary widely per user.
>
>  This is not a requirement.
>
>>  More importantly, it seems to me that the benefits proposed are 
>> rather limited and are only useful when a client reconnects after 
>> a brief disconnect.
>
>  This is not the case and if the document mislead you to believe 
> this, I think it should be fixed.

I thought the document was proposing a mechanism where sessions could 
continue to live for 30 minutes (or perhaps longer) after a client 
accidently or intentionally disconnects.


>>    A mechanism that allowed a client to more efficiently determine 
>> what has changed since it was last connected would, it seems to 
>> me, be more broadly useful for all clients, and confer much 
>> greater benefits to mobile clients than what is proposed here. 
>> For example, something such as the ACAP DELETEDSINCE command and 
>> ability to ask the server for items changed since a certain time.
>
>  Look at section 3.3, it is very much what you are asking for. I 
> would like to give a warning that the section is missing some text 
> and examples and the syntax is more likely to change.

But the after 30 minutes or so, the client must do a full resynch 
anyway. What if a client reconnects once or twice per day, or three 
times per week?

>
>>  We are already moving towards this with CONDSTORE, UIDNEXT, etc.
>
>  Actually, the RECONNECT extension depends on CONDSTORE and provides 
> something similar to DELETEDSINCE functionality.
>
>>  In Section 2 (Introduction), use of ANNOTATE
>
>  Did you mean CONDSTORE?

No, I was suggesting that perhaps ANNOTATE could be used as an 
alternative to the example shown in Section 2 which is only fetching 
the flags, after all.

>
>>  would allow flags to be searched using a modtime, which would 
>> avoid the 'UID fetch 1:* (FLAGS)' command in the example.  Also, 
>> note that the example fetches flags, not headers (the text says 
>> twice that headers are fetched).
>
>  I've fixed that in my copy, thanks.
>
>>  Preserving sessions during short periods of dropped connectivity 
>> is a TCP property, and does not need separate IMAP functionality. 
>> Perhaps a discussion of client and server TCP implementations 
>> would help.
>
>  Sure. Any suggested text :-)?

Let me think about some.

>
>>  Allowing clients to more efficiently resynchronize is a worthy 
>> goal, but should have broader applicability.  It seems to me that 
>> what clients need to know is: have any new messages arrived or 
>> existing messages been changed or deleted since last time?
>
>  See above.

But the above expires after 30 minutes or so.

>
>>    It also would benefit from knowing if a message moved, but that 
>> is much trickier.
>
>  Maybe. I am not sure how one would detect "moving" a message, as 
> there is no IMAP MOVE command, only COPY + STORE \Deleted. Does 
> this mean that the server should report locations of all copies of 
> a message?

I said it was much trickier.  When it was last discussed we ended up 
with UIDPLUS, as I recall.  Which helps the client doing the move, 
but not a client disconnected during the move.


--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
There are some micro-organisms that exhibit characteristics of
both plants and animals.  When exposed to light they undergo
photosynthesis; and when the lights go out, they turn into
animals.  But then again, don't we all?

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Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>>>I suggest that the name *NOT* be OUTBOX or "Sent Items".
>>>      
>>>
>>This can be something like "Drafts" and messages are moved to Outbox 
>>when they are sent.
>>
>>An alternative is to just mark a catenated message with a 
>>special flag 
>>(or even \Draft?): a smart client will be able to deal with any such 
>>message no matter which mailbox it is in.
>>    
>>
>
>Wouldn't mixing this with draft semantics require the solution to be "draft friendly?" Once it is it becomes in effect a draft.
>  
>
Yes. That is why I've mentioned the \Draft flag. I can't think of any 
reason for distinguishing a draft from a catenated draft.




--------------050308070704080204090206
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
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  <title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com">Michael.Wener@nokia.com</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid225A4E03D0EE5245A5C5F7E7B7C1F27A016D3ADE@daebe005.americas.nokia.com"
 type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I suggest that the name *NOT* be OUTBOX or "Sent Items".
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">This can be something like "Drafts" and messages are moved to Outbox 
when they are sent.

An alternative is to just mark a catenated message with a 
special flag 
(or even \Draft?): a smart client will be able to deal with any such 
message no matter which mailbox it is in.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Wouldn't mixing this with draft semantics require the solution to be "draft friendly?" Once it is it becomes in effect a draft.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Yes. That is why I've mentioned the \Draft flag. I can't think of any
reason for distinguishing a draft from a catenated draft.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct 12 10:45:03 2004
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Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 2:28 PM +0200 10/12/04, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
>
>>  Alexey Melnikov writes:
>>
>>>  Randall Gellens wrote:
>>>
>>>>  The Abstract and Introduction make a number of very sweeping 
>>>> assertions ("notoriously slow", "nearly unusable due to the 
>>>> inordinate amount of time spent waiting", "users tend to give up on 
>>>> the email client on their mobile terminal") -- are these backed up 
>>>> by data?
>>>
>>>
>>>  I will let Corby to comment on this ;-).
>>
>>
>>  I want to comment.
>>
>>  The last mobile client I used started life by sending something very 
>> much like this:
>>
>>  1 LIST "" "*"
>>  2 SELECT INBOX
>>  3 FETCH 1:* BODY.PEEK[HEADER FLAGS]
>>
>>  A commercial product. The thing cost several hundred euro. I don't 
>> need data to call that "notoriously slow", "nearly unusable" or worse.
>>
>>  I wanted to comment because I have questions: Are there any mobile 
>> clients that use IMAP well? If so, which? And do its/their authors 
>> think IMAP needs new extensions for mobile use?
>
>
> So should we perhaps produce an Informational or BCP that gives advice 
> on good use of IMAP?  Perhaps this document should include an example 
> of good use of IMAP and then show which problems still remain?

Yes!

I think RFC 2683 ("IMAP4 Implementation Recommendations") addresses this 
to some extend.
Also, draft-melnikov-imap-disc-05.txt has detailed instructions for 
disconnected clients (and examples), however many recommendations apply 
to other types of IMAP clients.


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>> Wouldn't mixing this with draft semantics require the solution to=20
>> be "draft friendly?" Once it is it becomes in effect a draft.
>=20
> Yes. That is why I've mentioned the \Draft flag. I can't think of any=20
> reason for distinguishing a draft from a catenated draft.

My point was that the issues around how to make CATENATEd messages draft =
friendly have not be resolved. As per =
http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/msg00515.html =
suggests.

How do you retrieve a CATENATEd message in draft form with out doing =
what you want to avoid, i.e. sloshing bits?=20

To avoid sloshing bits the client would have to keep track of which UIDs =
in the draft folder are true drafts and which are not.

Mike

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Randall Gellens wrote:

>>>  More importantly, it seems to me that the benefits proposed are 
>>> rather limited and are only useful when a client reconnects after a 
>>> brief disconnect.
>>
>>   This is not the case and if the document mislead you to believe 
>> this, I think it should be fixed.
>
> I thought the document was proposing a mechanism where sessions could 
> continue to live for 30 minutes (or perhaps longer) after a client 
> accidently or intentionally disconnects.

Well, that is true, but CONDSTORE is a dependency of RECONNECT and the 
client can use CONDSTORE to avoid full resync.

>>>  We are already moving towards this with CONDSTORE, UIDNEXT, etc.
>>
>>   Actually, the RECONNECT extension depends on CONDSTORE and provides 
>> something similar to DELETEDSINCE functionality.
>>
>>>  In Section 2 (Introduction), use of ANNOTATE
>>
>>   Did you mean CONDSTORE?
>
> No, I was suggesting that perhaps ANNOTATE could be used as an 
> alternative to the example shown in Section 2 which is only fetching 
> the flags, after all.

Firstly, flags are a common case. Secondly, I would rather not have 
examples with annotations, as RECONNECT has no dependency on ANNOTATE.


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Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>>>Wouldn't mixing this with draft semantics require the solution to 
>>>be "draft friendly?" Once it is it becomes in effect a draft.
>>>      
>>>
>>Yes. That is why I've mentioned the \Draft flag. I can't think of any 
>>reason for distinguishing a draft from a catenated draft.
>>    
>>
>My point was that the issues around how to make CATENATEd messages draft friendly have not be resolved. As per http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/msg00515.html suggests.
>  
>
Pete has said that this is still outstanding.

>How do you retrieve a CATENATEd message in draft form with out doing what you want to avoid, i.e. sloshing bits? 
>
>To avoid sloshing bits the client would have to keep track of which UIDs in the draft folder are true drafts and which are not.
>  
>
Or the client can just use a flag to mark all such messages.


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>> >My point was that the issues around how to make CATENATEd=20
>> messages draft friendly have not be resolved. As per=20
>> http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/msg00515.html =
suggests.
>> =20
>>
> Pete has said that this is still outstanding.

I got this feeling from Mark Crispin as well. I don't understand how to =
use CATENATE with drafts at the moment.


>>To avoid sloshing bits the client would have to keep track=20
>>of which UIDs in the draft folder are true drafts and which are not.
>>
>>
>Or the client can just use a flag to mark all such messages.

Hence ... why I don't think it is a good idea to use draft semantics. =
Either the draft folder or the \Draft flag. Placing it in the draft =
folder without the \Draft flag set strikes me as ad hoc.

Mike


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 09:17:51 -0700
To: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>,
        Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Comments on reconnect-01
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At 4:27 PM +0100 10/12/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  Randall Gellens wrote:
>
>>>>   More importantly, it seems to me that the benefits proposed are 
>>>> rather limited and are only useful when a client reconnects 
>>>> after a brief disconnect.
>>>
>>>    This is not the case and if the document mislead you to believe 
>>> this, I think it should be fixed.
>>
>>  I thought the document was proposing a mechanism where sessions 
>> could continue to live for 30 minutes (or perhaps longer) after a 
>> client accidently or intentionally disconnects.
>
>  Well, that is true, but CONDSTORE is a dependency of RECONNECT and 
> the client can use CONDSTORE to avoid full resync.

But CONDSTORE doesn't get the client all the way there, does it?  If 
so, why do we need 30-minute sessions?

>
>>>>   We are already moving towards this with CONDSTORE, UIDNEXT, etc.
>>>
>>>    Actually, the RECONNECT extension depends on CONDSTORE and 
>>> provides something similar to DELETEDSINCE functionality.
>>>
>>>>   In Section 2 (Introduction), use of ANNOTATE
>>>
>>>    Did you mean CONDSTORE?
>>
>>  No, I was suggesting that perhaps ANNOTATE could be used as an 
>> alternative to the example shown in Section 2 which is only 
>> fetching the flags, after all.
>
>  Firstly, flags are a common case. Secondly, I would rather not have 
> examples with annotations, as RECONNECT has no dependency on 
> ANNOTATE.

But ANNOTATE goes a long way towards helping clients with flags, 
which is, as you say, a common case (and a very important one).



-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
To determine how long it will take to write and debug a
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From: Pete Resnick <presnick@qualcomm.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Target directory for CATENATE in forward without 
	download
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On 10/12/04 at 10:45 AM -0500, Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:

>I got this feeling from Mark Crispin as well. I don't understand how 
>to use CATENATE with drafts at the moment.

There is the server-unfriendly method: When you want to edit your draft:

1. Get the BODYSTRUCTURE. Parse.
2. Get all of the editable text (or any "reasonably sized") parts.
3. Edit locally.
4. CATENATE the new text pieces and URLs to the pieces *in the prior 
draft* that you want in the new message.
5. Delete the prior draft.

Downsides:

1. If the server implements CATENATE by copying pieces (instead of 
doing a reference count to a database of pieces), that's a lot of bit 
sloshing.

2. Depending on how the server does quotas (especially if the server 
does a copying implementation), the user could blow quota by having 
two messages of great size on the server.

Of course, it's easy to solve the draft problem by using either 
ANNOTATE or by doing embedded-URI, but the former takes a function 
that isn't out there now, and the latter takes either takes a 
re-download and re-CATENATE or an EXPAND command, neither of which 
I'm terribly fond of (for reasons I've previously explained).

Suggestions taken.
-- 
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102

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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Comments on reconnect-01
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On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Randall Gellens wrote:
> So should we perhaps produce an Informational or BCP that gives advice on 
> good use of IMAP?  Perhaps this document should include an example of good 
> use of IMAP and then show which problems still remain?

My experience of trying to do this has not been positive.

The problem is that many (most?) clients are designed with a model of how 
the access mechanism should work, and then shoehorn the access mechanism 
into fitting into that model.  If the application has not considered the 
facilities of the access mechanism from inception, often what we end up 
using is a "lowest common denominator".  It doesn't help to tell the 
developer "use the protocol this way" if "this way" makes no sense in the 
design of the application.

I don't know how to resolve this issue.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2004 12:40:26 -0400
From: Cyrus Daboo <daboo@isamet.com>
To: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>, Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Target directory for CATENATE in forward
	without	download
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Hi Mark,

--On Friday, October 8, 2004 9:12 PM -0700 Mark Crispin 
<MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:

>> In an actual implementation of forward without download in what folder
>> did the authors envision the temporary message created by CATENATE be
>> stored?
>
> I suggest that this name be defined by the client, although there should
> be a convention defined for clients that are willing to cooperate.

If you want proper interop between clients then really the server needs to 
advertise a name that all clients can pick up. If we want to do that then I 
suggest that the name be an item returned in the NAMESPACE response using 
the extension options for NAMESPACE, e.g.:

* NAMESPACE (("" "/" "X-LEMONADE-OUTBOX" ("LEMONADE-OUTBOX"))) NIL NIL

This does not have to be a requirement, merely a hint to clients that want 
interoperability.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo

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I have mostly very minor comments on urlauth-02.  I apologize for attaching the entire draft, but my comments are in-line (look for ">>>>" at the left margin) and the file is only 28,874 octets.
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
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Network Working Group                                         M. Crispin
INTERNET-DRAFT: IMAP URLAUTH                    University of Washington
                                                           September 2004
Document: internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lemonade-urlauth-02.txt

     Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) - URLAUTH Extension


Status of this Memo

    By submitting this Internet-Draft, I certify that any applicable
    patent or other IPR claims of which I am aware have been disclosed, or
    will be disclosed, and any of which I become aware will be disclosed,
    in accordance with RFC 3668.

    Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
    Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that
    other groups may also distribute working documents as
    Internet-Drafts.

    Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
    and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
    time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
    material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

    The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at
    http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt

    To view the list Internet-Draft Shadow Directories, see
    http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.

    A revised version of this document will be submitted to the RFC
    editor as an Informational Document for the Internet Community.

    A revised version of this draft document will be submitted to the RFC
    editor as a Proposed Standard for the Internet Community.  Discussion
    and suggestions for improvement are requested, and should be sent to
    lemonade@IETF.ORG.  This document will expire before 30 March 2005.
    Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

;;; POINTS FOR DISCUSSION:
;;;
;;; This document was formerly known as draft-crispin-imap-urlauth.  The
;;; 00 version of this document is identical to the 09 version of that
;;; document.
;;;
;;; Earlier versions of this document had access identifiers for "any
;;; authorized user" and anonymous.  These were not needed for Lemonade
;;; submit-without-download and were removed.  Should something of this
;;; nature be put back in?
>>>> or as extensions

Abstract

    This document describes the URLAUTH extension to the Internet
    Message Access Protocol (IMAP) (RFC 3501) and the IMAP URL Scheme
    (IMAPURL) (RFC 2192).  This extension provides a means by which an
    IMAP client can use URLs carrying authorization to access limited
    message data on the IMAP server.

    An IMAP server which supports this extension indicates this with a
    capability name of "URLAUTH".


Conventions Used in this Document

    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", and "MAY"
    in this document are to be interpreted as defined in [KEYWORDS].

    The formal syntax uses the Augmented Backus-Naur Form (ABNF)
    notation including the core rules defined in Appendix A of [ABNF].

    In examples, "C:" and "S:" indicate lines sent by the client and
    server respectively.  If a single "C:" or "S:" label applies to
    multiple lines, then the line breaks between those lines are for
    editorial clarity only and are not part of the actual protocol
    exchange.


Introduction

    In [IMAPURL], a URL of the form imap://fred@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20
    requires authorization as userid "fred".

    The URLAUTH extension provides a means by which an authorized user of an
    IMAP server can create URLAUTH authorized IMAP URLs.  A URLAUTH
    authorized URL conveys authorization (not authentication) to the data
    addressed by that URL, and can be used in another IMAP session to access
    specific content on the IMAP server without otherwise providing
    authorization to any other data owned by the authorizing user (including
    other data in the mailbox specified in the URL).

    A URLAUTH authorized URL can be used in the argument to the BURL command
    in message composition, as described in [BURL], for such purposes as a
    memory (or other resource) constrainted client submitting a message
    forward or resend from an IMAP mailbox without requiring the client to
    fetch that message data.

    The URLAUTH is generated using an authorization mechanism name and an
    authorization token, which is generated using a secret mailbox
    access key.  An IMAP client can request the server to generate and
    assign a new mailbox access key (thus effectively revoking all current
    URLs using URLAUTH with that mailbox access key) but can not set the
>>>>                        ^^^^ "the prior" or "the current"
    mailbox access key to a key of its own choosing.


1. Concepts

1.1. URLAUTH

    The URLAUTH is a component, appended at the end of a URL, which conveys
    authorization to access the data addressed by that URL.  It contains an
    authorized access identifier, an authorization mechanism name, and an
    authorization token which is generated from the URL, the authorized access
    identifer, authorization mechanism name, and a mailbox access key.

1.2. Mailbox Access Key

    The mailbox access key is a random string with at least 128 bits of
    entropy.  It is generated by software (not by the human user), and MUST
    be unpredictable.

    Each user has a table of mailboxes and an associated mailbox access key
    for each mailbox.  Consequently, the mailbox access key is per-user and
    per-mailbox.  In other words, two users sharing the same mailbox each have
    a different mailbox access key for that mailbox; and each mailbox accessed
    by a single user also has different mailbox access key.
>>>>                         ^ 'a'

1.3. Authorized Access Identifier

    The authorized access identifier restricts use of the URLAUTH authorized
    URL to certain users authorized on the server, as described in section 2.

1.4. Authorization Mechanism

    The authorization mechanism is the algorithm by which the URLAUTH is
    generated and subsequently verified, using the mailbox access key.

    This specification defines the INTERNAL mechanism, which uses a token
    generation algorithm of the server's choosing (a modern and reasonably
    secure [HMAC] such as HMAC-SHA1 is recommended) and does not involve
    disclosure of the mailbox access key to the client.

>>>> might want to have some discussion of how the server can move from
>>>> one algorthim to another.  For example, perhaps the server keeps
>>>> track of the algorithm along with the secret in the table (or does
>>>> so if it ever changes to a new algorithm), allowing new algorithms
>>>> to be gradually deployed without invalidating existing URLs; what
>>>> if a defect is discovered in the current algorithm and the server
>>>> admin feels it neccessary to revoke all existing URLs?  Does the
>>>> server issue untagged URLAUTH responses to clients when they log
>>>> in?

    Although this specification is extensible for other mechanisms, none
    are defined in this document.

1.5. Authorization Token

    The authorization token is a deterministic string of at least 128 bits
    which an entity with knowledge of the secret mailbox access key and URL
    authorization mechanism can use to verify the URL.


2. IMAP URL Extensions

    [IMAPURL] is extended by allowing the addition of ;EXPIRE=<datetime>"
    and ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" to IMAP URLs which refer to
    specific message or message parts.

    ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" (the URLAUTH) MUST be at the end of
    the URL.

    URLAUTH does not apply to, and MUST NOT be used with, any IMAP URL which
    refers to an entire IMAP server, list of mailboxes, an entire IMAP
    mailbox, or IMAP search results.

    When ";EXPIRE=<datetime>" is used, this indicates the latest date and
    time that the URL is valid.  After that date and time, the URL has
    expired and server implementations MUST reject the URL.  If
    ";EXPIRE=<datetime>" is not used, the URL has no expiration, but still
    can be revoked as discussed below.

    ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" indicates the access identifiers
    which are permitted to use this URL, the authorization mechanism, and
    the authorization token.

    The "submit+" access identifier, followed by a userid, indicates that
    only a userid authorized as a message submission entity on behalf of the
    specified userid is permitted to use this URL.  The IMAP server does not
    validate the specified userid but does validate that the IMAP session
    has an authorization identity that is authorized as a message submission
    entity.  The authorized message submission entity MUST validate the
    userid prior to contacting the IMAP server.

    The "user+" access identifier, followed by a userid, indicates that use
    of this URL is limited to IMAP sessions which are logged in as the
    specified userid (that is, have authorization identity as that userid).
>>>> worth mentioning for additional clarification that if a SASL mech is 
>>>> used whichy provides both authorization and authentication identifiers,
>>>> it is the authorization id that is matched?

    The authorization token is represented as an ASCII-encoded hexadecimal
    string, which is used to authorize the URL.  The length and the
    calculation of the authorization token depends upon the mechanism used;
    but in all cases the authorization token is at least 128 bits (and
    therefore 32 hexadecimal digits).
>>>>         ^ "at least"


3. Discussion of URLAUTH Authorization Issues

    In [IMAPURL], the userid before the "@" in the URL has two purposes:
       1) It provides context for user-specific mailbox paths such
          as "INBOX".
       2) It specifies that resolution of the URL requires logging in as
          that user and limits use of that URL to only that user.
    An obvious limitation of using the same field for both purposes is that
    the URL can only be resolved by the mailbox owner.

    URLAUTH overrides the second purpose of the userid in the IMAP URL and
    by default permits the URL to be resolved by any user permitted by the
    access identifier.

    The "user+<userid>" access identifier limits resolution of that URL to a
    particular userid, whereas the "submit+<userid>" access identifier is
    more general and simply requires the session be authorized by a user
    that has been granted a "submit" role within the authentication system.

    This makes it impossible for an attacker, spying on the session, to use
    the same URL, either directly or by submission to a message submission
    entity.


4. Generation of URLAUTH authorized URLs

    A URLAUTH authorized URL is generated from an initial URL as follows.

    An initial URL is built, ending with ";URLAUTH=<access>" but without the
    ":<mech>:<token>" components.  An authorization mechanism is selected
    and used to calculate the authorization token, with the initial URL as
    the data and a secret known to the IMAP server as the key.  The URLAUTH
    authorized URL is generated by taking the initial URL and appending ":",
    the URL authorization mechanism name, ":", and the ASCII-encoded
    hexadecimal representation of the authorization token.

       Note: ASCII-encoded hexadecimal is used instead of BASE64 because a
       BASE64 representation may have "=" padding characters which would be
       problematic in a URL.

    In the INTERNAL mechanism, the mailbox access key for that mailbox is
    the secret known to the IMAP server, and a server-selected algorithm
    such as HMAC-SHA1 is used to to calculate the authorization token.

>>>> refer to earlier discussion of how algorithm can be changed (if you
>>>> add such a discussion)


5. Validation of URLAUTH authorized URLs

    A URLAUTH authorized URL is validated as follows.

    The URL is split at the ":" which separates "<access>" from
    "<mech>:<token>" in the ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>" portion of
    the URL.  The "<mech>:<token>" portion is first parsed and saved as the
    authorization mechanism and the authorization token.  The URL is
    truncated, discarding the ":" described above, to create a "rump URL"
    (the URL minus the ":" and the "<mech>:<token>" portion).  The rump URL
    is then analyzed to identify the mailbox.

    If the mailbox cannot be identified, an authorization token is
    calculated on the rump URL, using random "plausible" keys (selected by
    the server) as needed, before returning a validation failure.  This
    prevents timing attacks aimed at identifying mailbox names.

    If the mailbox can be identified, the authorization token is calculated
    on the rump URL and a secret known to the IMAP server using the given
    URL authorization mechanism.  Validation is successful if, and only if,
    the calculated authorization token for that mechanism matches the
    authorization token supplied in ";URLAUTH=<access>:<mech>:<token>".

    Removal of the ":<mech>:<token>" portion of the URL MUST be the only
    operation applied to the URLAUTH authorized URL to get the rump URL.  In
    particular, URL percent escape decoding and case-folding MUST NOT occur.

    In the INTERNAL mechanism, the mailbox access key for that mailbox is
    used as the secret known to the IMAP server, and the same
    server-selected algorithm used for generating URLs is used to calculate
    the authorization token for verification.

>>>> refer to earlier discussion of how algorithm can be changed (if you
>>>> add such a discussion)


6. Additional Commands

    These commands are extension to the [IMAP] base protocol.

    The section headings of these commands are intended to correspond with
    where they would be located in the base protocol document if they were
    part of that document.

BASE.6.3.RESETKEY.  RESETKEY Command

    Arguments:  optional mailbox name
                optional mechanism name(s)

    Responses:  none other than in result

    Result:     OK - RESETKEY completed, URLMECH containing new data
                NO - RESETKEY error: can't change key of that mailbox
                BAD - command unknown or arguments invalid

    The RESETKEY command has two forms.

    The first form accepts a mailbox name as an argument, and generates
    a new mailbox access key for the given mailbox in the user's
    mailbox access key table, replacing any previous mailbox access key
    (and revoking any URLs that were authorized with a URLAUTH using
    that key) in that table.  By default, the mailbox access key is
    generated for the INTERNAL mechanism; other mechanisms can be
    specified with the optional mechanism argument.

    The second form, with no arguments, removes all mailbox access keys
    in the user's mailbox access key table, revoking all URLs current
>>>>                                                             ^   ly
    authorized using URLAUTH by the user.

    Any current IMAP session logged in as the user which has the mailbox
    selected will receive an untagged OK response with the URLMECH
    status response code.

>>>> need more information on the data returned in the OK response, including
>>>> the "mechs" shown in your example

    Example:

       C: a31 RESETKEY
       S: a31 OK All keys removed
       C: a32 RESETKEY INBOX
       S: a32 OK [URLMECH INTERNAL] mechs
       C: a33 RESETKEY INBOX XSAMPLE
       S: a33 OK [URLMECH INTERNAL XSAMPLE=P34OKhO7VEkCbsiYY8rGEg==] mechs


BASE.6.3.GENURLAUTH.  GENURLAUTH Command

    Argument:   one or more URL/mechanism pairs

    Response:   untagged response: GENURLAUTH

    Result:     OK - GENURLAUTH completed
                NO - GENURLAUTH error: can't generate a URLAUTH
                BAD - command unknown or arguments invalid

    The GENURLAUTH command requests the server to generate a URLAUTH
    authorized URL for each of the given URLs using the given URL
    authorization mechanism.

    If the command is successful, a GENURLAUTH response code is returned
    listing the requested URLs as URLAUTH authorized URLs.

    Example:

       Note that lines which do not begin with "C:" or "S:" are
       continuations of the previous line for typographical clarity and
       are not separate lines in the protocol.

       C: a777 GENURLAUTH "imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
       ;urlauth=submit+fred" INTERNAL
       S: * GENURLAUTH "imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
       ;urlauth=submit+fred:internal:
       91354a473744909de610943775f92038"
       S: a777 OK GENURLAUTH completed


BASE.6.3.URLFETCH.  URLFETCH Command

    Argument:   URL
>>>> one URL or multiple?

    Response:   untagged response: URLFETCH

    Result:     OK - urlfetch completed
                NO - urlfetch failed due to server internal error
                BAD - command unknown or arguments invalid

    The URLFETCH command requests that the server return the text data
    associated with an IMAP URLs, as described in [IMAPURL] and extended by
>>>>                ^^         ^  (singular vs. plural)
    this document.  The data is returned for all validated URLs, regardless
>>>>                                         ^^^
    of whether or not the session would otherwise be able to access the
    mailbox containing that data via SELECT or examine.

       Note: This command does not require that the URL refer to the
       selected mailbox; nor does it require that any mailbox be
       selected.  It also does not in any way interfere with any selected
       mailbox.

    The URLFETCH command MUST return an untagged URLFETCH response and
    a tagged OK response to any URLFETCH command that is syntactically
    valid.  A NO response indicates a server internal failure which may
    be resolved on later retry.

       Note: the possibility of a NO response is to accommodate
       implementations which would otherwise have to issue an
       untagged BYE with a fatal error due to an inability to
       respond to a valid request.  In an ideal world, a server
       SHOULD NOT issue a NO response.

    The server MUST return NIL for any IMAP URL which returns to an
>>>>                                                          ^^ (delete)
    entire IMAP server, list of mailboxes, an entire IMAP mailbox, or
    IMAP search results.

    Example

       Note that lines which do not begin with "C:" or "S:" are
       continuations of the previous line for typographical clarity and
       are not separate lines in the protocol.  For clarity, this example
       uses the LOGIN command which SHOULD NOT be used over a non-encrypted
       communication path.

       This example is of a submit server, obtaining a message segment for
       a message that it has already validated was submitted by "fred".

       S: * OK [CAPABILITY IMAP4REV1 URLAUTH] example.com IMAP server ready
       C: a001 LOGIN submitserver secret
       S: a001 OK submitserver logged in
       C: a002 URLFETCH "imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
       ;urlauth=submit+fred:internal:
       91354a473744909de610943775f92038"
       S: * URLFETCH "imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2
       ;urlauth=submit+fred:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038" {28}
       S: Si vis pacem, para bellum.
       S:
       S: a002 OK URLFETCH completed


7. Additional Responses

    These responses are extensions to the [IMAP] base protocol.

    The section headings of these responses are intended to correspond with
    where they would be located in the base protocol document if they were
    part of that document.

BASE.7.1.URLMECH.  URLMECH Status Response Code

    The URLMECH status response code is followed by a list of URL authorization
    mechanism names.  Mechanism names other than INTERNAL may be appended
    with an "=" and BASE64 encoded form of mechanism specific data.

    This status response code is returned in an untagged OK response in
    response to a RESETKEY, SELECT, or EXAMINE command.


BASE.7.4.URLFETCH.  URLFETCH Response

    Contents:   URL/nstring pair

    The URLFETCH response returns the message text data associated with an
    IMAP URLs, as described in [IMAPURL] and extended by this document.
    This response occurs as the result of a URLFETCH command.

    The returned data string is NIL if the URL is invalid for any reason
    (including validation failure).  If the URL is valid, but the IMAP
    fetch of the body part returned NIL (this should not happen), the
    returned data string should be the empty string ("") and not NIL.

    Example:

       C: a33 RESETKEY INBOX XSAMPLE
       S: a33 OK [URLMECH INTERNAL XSAMPLE=P34OKhO7VEkCbsiYY8rGEg==] mechs
>>>> I think this example is for URLMECH; need example for URLFETCH here

8. Formal Syntax

    The following syntax specification uses the Augmented Backus-Naur
    Form (ABNF) notation as specified in [ABNF].

    The following modifications are made to the Formal Syntax in [IMAP]:

resetkey       = "RESETKEY" [SP mailbox *(SP mechanism)]

command-auth    =/ resetkey / genurlauth / urlfetch

resp-text-code  =/ "URLMECH" SP "INTERNAL" *(SP mechanism ["=" base64])

genurlauth      = "GENURLAUTH" 1*(SP url SP mechanism)

genurlauth-data = "*" SP "GENURLAUTH" 1*(SP url)
>>>> this shows plural, should update the command description to reflect this

url             = astring
                    ; contains imapurl as defined below

urlfetch        = "URLFETCH" SP url

urlfetch-data   = "*" SP "URLFETCH" SP url SP nstring

    The following modifications are made to the Formal Syntax in [IMAPURL]:

enc-urlauth     = 32*HEXDIG

imessagepart    = enc_mailbox [uidvalidity] iuid [isection] [iurlauth]

iurlauth        = [expire] ";URLAUTH=" access ":" mechanism ":" enc-urlauth

access          = ("submit+" iuserauth) / ("user+" iuserauth)

expire          = ";EXPIRE=" date-time
                     ; date-time defined in [DATETIME]

mechanism       = "INTERNAL" / 1*uchar
                    ; new mechanisms MUST be registered with IANA

9. Security Considerations

    Security considerations are discussed throughout this memo.

    The mailbox access key SHOULD have at least 128 bits of entropy (refer
    to [RANDOM] for more details) and MUST be unpredictable.

    The URLMECH status response code may expose sensitive data in the
    mechanism specific data for mechanisms other than INTERNAL.  A server
    implementation MUST implement a configuration that will not return
    a URLMECH status response code unless some mechanism is provided
    that protects the session from snooping, such as a TLS or SASL
    security layer that provides confidentiality protection.

    The calculation of a authorization token with a "plausible" key if the
    mailbox can not be identified is necessary to avoid attacks in which the
    server is probed to see if a particular mailbox exists on the server by
    measuring the amount of time taken to reject a known bad name vs. some
    other name.

    To protect against a computational denial-of-service attack, a server
    MAY impose progressively longer delays on multiple URL requests that
    fail validation.


IANA Considerations

    URLAUTH authorization mechanisms are registered by publishing a
    standards track or IESG approved experimental RFC.  The registry is
    currently located at:

         [to be defined by IANA]

    This document consitutes registration of the INTERNAL URLAUTH
    authorization mechanism.

    IMAP URLAUTH Authorization Mechanism Registry

    Mechanism Name               Reference
    --------------               ---------
    INTERNAL                     [this document, to be filled in by IANA]


References

    The following references are normative:

    [ABNF]     Crocker, D. and P. Overell, "Augmented BNF for Syntax
               Specifications: ABNF", RFC 2234, November 1997.

    [BURL]     Newman, C., "Message Submission BURL Extension",
               draft-newman-lemonade-burl-00.txt (work in progress),
               March 2004.

    [DATETIME] Klyne, G., and Newman, C., "Date and Time on the Internet:
               Timestamps", RFC 3339, July 2002.

    [IMAP]     Crispin, M., "Internet Message Access Protocol - Version
               4rev1", RFC 3501, March 2003.

    [IMAPURL]  Newman, C., "IMAP URL Scheme", RFC 2192, September 1997.

    [KEYWORDS] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
               Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.

    The following references are informative:

    [HMAC]     Krawczyk, H., Bellare, M., and Canetti, R., "HMAC:
               Keyed-Hashing for Message Authentication", RFC 2104,
 	      February 1997.

    [RANDOM]   Eastlake, D., Crocker, S., and Schiller, J., "Randomness
               Recommendations for Security", RFC 1750, December 1994.

Author's Addresses

    Mark R. Crispin
    Networks and Distributed Computing
    University of Washington
    4545 15th Avenue NE
    Seattle, WA  98105-4527

    Phone: (206) 543-5762
    EMail: MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU

    Chris Newman
    Sun Microsystems
    1050 Lakes Drive
    West Covina, CA  91790

    EMail: chris.newman@sun.com


IPR Disclosure Acknowledgement

    By submitting this Internet-Draft, I certify that any applicable
    patent or other IPR claims of which I am aware have been disclosed,
    and any of which I become aware will be disclosed, in accordance with
    RFC 3668.


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Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 4:27 PM +0100 10/12/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>  Randall Gellens wrote:
>>
>>>>>   More importantly, it seems to me that the benefits proposed are 
>>>>> rather limited and are only useful when a client reconnects after 
>>>>> a brief disconnect.
>>>>
>>>>    This is not the case and if the document mislead you to believe 
>>>> this, I think it should be fixed.
>>>
>>>   I thought the document was proposing a mechanism where sessions 
>>> could continue to live for 30 minutes (or perhaps longer) after a 
>>> client accidently or intentionally disconnects.
>>
>>   Well, that is true, but CONDSTORE is a dependency of RECONNECT and 
>> the client can use CONDSTORE to avoid full resync.
>
> But CONDSTORE doesn't get the client all the way there, does it?

It doesn't send expunged messages to the client, which I think is
a). not a big deal and the client should just do a SEARCH
b). sending EXPUNGE responses is more chatty than just a single response 
from SEARCH (see #1).

>   If so, why do we need 30-minute sessions? 

1). We save some round trips by combining LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE with SELECT.
2). We avoid sending untagged responses required on SELECT.
3). A future extension may associate additional data with an opened 
mailbox, RECONNECT will keep this as well.

Maybe 30 minutes is too little?

>>>>>   We are already moving towards this with CONDSTORE, UIDNEXT, etc.
>>>>
>>>>    Actually, the RECONNECT extension depends on CONDSTORE and 
>>>> provides something similar to DELETEDSINCE functionality.
>>>>
>>>>>   In Section 2 (Introduction), use of ANNOTATE
>>>>
>>>>    Did you mean CONDSTORE?
>>>
>>>   No, I was suggesting that perhaps ANNOTATE could be used as an 
>>> alternative to the example shown in Section 2 which is only fetching 
>>> the flags, after all.
>>
>>   Firstly, flags are a common case. Secondly, I would rather not have 
>> examples with annotations, as RECONNECT has no dependency on ANNOTATE.
>
> But ANNOTATE goes a long way towards helping clients with flags, 

I am not sure what do you mean.

> which is, as you say, a common case (and a very important one).

Ok, if you right an example, we will consider it for inclusion.

Alexey


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:00:11 -0700
To: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>,
        Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Comments on reconnect-01
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At 5:36 PM +0100 10/12/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  1). We save some round trips by combining LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE with SELECT.
>  2). We avoid sending untagged responses required on SELECT.
>  3). A future extension may associate additional data with an opened 
> mailbox, RECONNECT will keep this as well.

Perhaps an extension that had nothing to do with time would be in 
order.  Consider, for example, an extension to allow a client to set 
a default folder.  The client could pass some token (other than SID) 
to LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE to indicate that the default folder should be 
selected.  Would that give the same benefits?  An advantage is that 
it could always be used, not just within 30 minutes.
--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
Coding is "90% finished" for half of the total coding time. Debugging
is "99% complete" most of the time.                     --Fred Brooks

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct 12 13:52:24 2004
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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 10:29:54 -0700
To: lemonade@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Comments on reconnect-01
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At 9:07 AM -0700 10/12/04, Mark Crispin wrote:

>  On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>  So should we perhaps produce an Informational or BCP that gives 
>> advice on good use of IMAP?  Perhaps this document should include 
>> an example of good use of IMAP and then show which problems still 
>> remain?
>
>  My experience of trying to do this has not been positive.
>
>  The problem is that many (most?) clients are designed with a model 
> of how the access mechanism should work, and then shoehorn the 
> access mechanism into fitting into that model.  If the application 
> has not considered the facilities of the access mechanism from 
> inception, often what we end up using is a "lowest common 
> denominator".  It doesn't help to tell the developer "use the 
> protocol this way" if "this way" makes no sense in the design of 
> the application.
>
>  I don't know how to resolve this issue.

In the case of a mobile (handset/PDA/etc.) IMAP client, this might be 
a new application or at least a redesign, so we may have a chance 
here.


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly-selected tag: ---------------
There are two kinds of lawyers, those who know the law and those who
know the judge.

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Folks,

Here is the first draft of the slides we are using at today's interim 
meeting.

To follow the details of the discussion join us in the jabber chatroom.

Cheers,
Glenn.



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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Here is the first draft of the slides we are using at today's interim </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>meeting.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>To follow the details of the discussion join us in the jabber chatroom.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Glenn.</FONT>
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Slides Stephane are about to go over


		
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FYI

> ----------
> From: 	Arnaud Meylan
> Sent: 	Tuesday, October 12, 2004 3:46 PM
> To: 	Parsons, Glenn [CAR:1A11:EXCH]
> Subject: 	Slides accompanying
> draft-meylan-imap-statistics-lemonade-00.txt
> 
>  <<presentation draft IMAP statistics.ppt>> 
> Glenn,
> 
> Here are the slides for my presentation later this afternoon, please add 
> them to the server.
> 
> thanks - Arnaud
> 
> 

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charset=3DISO-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>FW: Slides accompanying  =
draft-meylan-imap-statistics-lemonade-00.txt</TITLE>
</HEAD>
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">FYI</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----------</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:</FONT></B> &nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Arnaud Meylan</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:</FONT></B> &nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, October 12, 2004 3:46 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To:</FONT></B> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Parsons, Glenn [CAR:1A11:EXCH]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:</FONT></B> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Slides accompanying&nbsp; =
draft-meylan-imap-statistics-lemonade-00.txt</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" SIZE=3D2 COLOR=3D"#000000"> =
&lt;&lt;presentation draft IMAP statistics.ppt&gt;&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Glenn,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">Here are the slides for my =
presentation later this afternoon, please add </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">them to the server.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Monaco">thanks - Arnaud</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

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I've just sent in an updated MMS mappings draft.
-- 
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Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 5:36 PM +0100 10/12/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>  1). We save some round trips by combining LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE with 
>> SELECT.
>>  2). We avoid sending untagged responses required on SELECT.
>>  3). A future extension may associate additional data with an opened 
>> mailbox, RECONNECT will keep this as well.
>
> Perhaps an extension that had nothing to do with time would be in 
> order.  Consider, for example, an extension to allow a client to set a 
> default folder.  The client could pass some token (other than SID) to 
> LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE to indicate that the default folder should be 
> selected.  Would that give the same benefits?  An advantage is that it 
> could always be used, not just within 30 minutes.

In your proposal: do you still want the server to keep some per-client 
mailbox state?

If the answer is "yes": I really want to avoid the requirement on 
servers to store additional per-client state in some persistent storage. 
What if the client never comes back? I would rather allow for server 
implementations that can keep all per-client state in memory. If the 
server get restarted - the state would be lost and I think this is just 
fine.
If there is some kind of timeout, than your proposal effectively becomes 
what RECONNECT is now. I frankly don't care if timeout is 30 minutes. It 
can be a couple of days, as long as it is not infinity. We can extend 
RECONNECT to advertise timeout, but I am not sure if this is that useful.

Alexey


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Randall Gellens wrote:
<blockquote cite="midp07000c06bd91bdb2194a@%5B10.0.2.11%5D" type="cite">At
5:36 PM +0100 10/12/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote: <br>
  <blockquote type="cite">&nbsp;1). We save some round trips by combining
LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE with SELECT. <br>
&nbsp;2). We avoid sending untagged responses required on SELECT. <br>
&nbsp;3). A future extension may associate additional data with an opened
mailbox, RECONNECT will keep this as well. <br>
  </blockquote>
Perhaps an extension that had nothing to do with time would be in
order.&nbsp; Consider, for example, an extension to allow a client to set a
default folder.&nbsp; The client could pass some token (other than SID) to
LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE to indicate that the default folder should be
selected.&nbsp; Would that give the same benefits?&nbsp; An advantage is that it
could always be used, not just within 30 minutes. <br>
</blockquote>
In your proposal: do you still want the server to keep some per-client
mailbox state?<br>
<br>
If the answer is "yes": I really want to avoid the requirement on
servers to store additional per-client state in some persistent
storage. What if the client never comes back? I would rather allow for
server implementations that can keep all per-client state in memory. If
the server get restarted - the state would be lost and I think this is
just fine.<br>
If there is some kind of timeout, than your proposal effectively
becomes what RECONNECT is now. I frankly don't care if timeout is 30
minutes. It can be a couple of days, as long as it is not infinity. We
can extend RECONNECT to advertise timeout, but I am not sure if this is
that useful.<br>
<br>
Alexey<br>
<br>
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 14 05:45:09 2004
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 >4.  Response Codes
 >
 >   When a CATENATE command fails it may return a response code that
 >   describes a reason for the failure.

I think this should be changed to:

   When a CATENATE command fails it SHOULD return a response code that
   describes a reason for the failure. Two possible response codes are 
described below,
   however other response codes are also possible.

i.e. we want to encourage detailed error reporting.

 >5.  Formal Syntax
 >
 >   The following syntax specification uses the Augmented Backus-Naur
 >   Form (ABNF) [6] notation.  Undefined elements are defined in the
 >   formal syntax of the ABNF [6], IMAP [1], and IMAP URL [2]
 >   specifications.
 >
 >   catenate = "CATENATE" SP mailbox [SP flag-list] [SP date-time]
 >                       1*(SP (literal / imapurl))
 >
I think the document should extend the resp-text-code non-terminal 
defined in RFC 3501, i.e. add

   resp-text-code =/ badurl_response_code / toobig_response_code

 >   badurl_response_code = "BADURL" SP imapurl
 >
 >   toobig_response_code = "TOOBIG"

Alexey


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&gt;4.&nbsp; Response Codes<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; When a CATENATE command fails it may return a response code that<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; describes a reason for the failure.<br>
<br>
I think this should be changed to:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; When a CATENATE command fails it SHOULD return a response code that<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; describes a reason for the failure. Two possible response codes are
described below,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; however other response codes are also possible.<br>
<br>
i.e. we want to encourage detailed error reporting.<br>
<br>
&gt;5.&nbsp; Formal Syntax<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; The following syntax specification uses the Augmented Backus-Naur<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Form (ABNF) [6] notation.&nbsp; Undefined elements are defined in the<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; formal syntax of the ABNF [6], IMAP [1], and IMAP URL [2]<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; specifications.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; catenate = "CATENATE" SP mailbox [SP flag-list] [SP date-time]<br>
&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1*(SP (literal / imapurl))<br>
&gt;<br>
I think the document should extend the resp-text-code non-terminal
defined in RFC 3501, i.e. add<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; resp-text-code =/ badurl_response_code / toobig_response_code<br>
<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; badurl_response_code = "BADURL" SP imapurl<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; toobig_response_code = "TOOBIG"<br>
<br>
Alexey<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Mapping Between the Multimedia Messaging Service 
			  (MMS) and Internet Mail
	Author(s)	: R. Gellens
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-mms-mapping-01.txt
	Pages		: 32
	Date		: 2004-10-14
	
The cellular telephone industry has defined a service known as the
    Multimedia Messaging Service (MMS).  This service uses formats and
    protocols which are similar to, but differ in key ways from those
    used in Internet mail.

    This document specifies how to exchange messages between these two
    services, including mapping information elements as used in MMS
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 14 17:53:55 2004
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Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:44:11 -0700
To: lemonade@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Comments on reconnect-01
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At 10:17 PM +0100 10/13/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  Randall Gellens wrote:
>
>>  At 5:36 PM +0100 10/12/04, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>
>>>   1). We save some round trips by combining LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE with SELECT.
>>>   2). We avoid sending untagged responses required on SELECT.
>>>   3). A future extension may associate additional data with an 
>>> opened mailbox, RECONNECT will keep this as well.
>>>
>>  Perhaps an extension that had nothing to do with time would be in 
>> order.  Consider, for example, an extension to allow a client to 
>> set a default folder.  The client could pass some token (other 
>> than SID) to LOGIN/AUTHENTICATE to indicate that the default 
>> folder should be selected.  Would that give the same benefits?  An 
>> advantage is that it could always be used, not just within 30 
>> minutes.
>>
>  In your proposal: do you still want the server to keep some 
> per-client mailbox state?

No, I am trying to avoid that.  The server might keep some per-user 
preferences, but that scales much better than per-mailbox state.

>
>  If the answer is "yes": I really want to avoid the requirement on 
> servers to store additional per-client state in some persistent 
> storage. What if the client never comes back? I would rather allow 
> for server implementations that can keep all per-client state in 
> memory. If the server get restarted - the state would be lost and I 
> think this is just fine.

What I'd like to do is make the basic process better, so we don't 
need get lucky with a request coming in during the time window and 
while the server has the data in memory.

>  If there is some kind of timeout, than your proposal effectively 
> becomes what RECONNECT is now. I frankly don't care if timeout is 
> 30 minutes. It can be a couple of days, as long as it is not 
> infinity. We can extend RECONNECT to advertise timeout, but I am 
> not sure if this is that useful.

I'd like to avoid anything with a timeout, if possible.


-- 
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Oct 16 12:45:25 2004
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On 10/14/04 at 12:06 AM +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  >4.  Response Codes
>>
>>    When a CATENATE command fails it may return a response code that
>>    describes a reason for the failure.
>
>I think this should be changed to:
>
>    When a CATENATE command fails it SHOULD return a response code that
>    describes a reason for the failure. Two possible response codes 
>are described below,
>    however other response codes are also possible.
>
>i.e. we want to encourage detailed error reporting.

You will note that I have avoided citing RFC 2119 up to this point. 
RFC 2119 imperatives are *not* to be used to "encourage" anything 
that does not affect interoperability. I'd really prefer to leave it 
as-is.

>I think the document should extend the resp-text-code non-terminal 
>defined in RFC 3501

Done.

pr
--
Pete Resnick <http://www.qualcomm.com/~presnick/>
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Subject: Re: [lemonade] Comments about CATENATE-02
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Pete Resnick writes:
> You will note that I have avoided citing RFC 2119 up to this point. 
> RFC 2119 imperatives are *not* to be used to "encourage" anything 
> that does not affect interoperability. I'd really prefer to leave it 
> as-is.

Right. We may want to encourage detailed error reporting, but that has 
nothing to do with CATENATE and everything to do with IMAP in general.

Arnt

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The problem that needs to be optimized for a mobile client is the act of =
synchronizing. So I see two broad issues with reconnect:

1) It is not focused on the problem as I see it. There is no need to =
worry about folding in SELECT with LOGIN because these are not issues. =
The real issue is the time it takes for a set of folders with an =
unpredictable number of mail messages to synchronize. The draft =
imap-disc mentions an algorithm for server-to-client synchronization =
that is sensitive to both M and N where M is the number of folders and N =
is the number of messages in a folder. Mobile clients are more sensitive =
to the combination of M and N.

2) It does not address the multiple folder problem. While INBOX may be =
of special interest it is not the only folder of interest.=20

Mike

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It sounds as if the condstore extension addresses your needs much better 
than reconnect. Could you have a look at what condstore can do for you?

Arnt

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Pete Resnick wrote:

> On 10/14/04 at 12:06 AM +0100, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>  >4.  Response Codes
>>
>>>    When a CATENATE command fails it may return a response code that
>>>    describes a reason for the failure.
>>
>> I think this should be changed to:
>>
>>    When a CATENATE command fails it SHOULD return a response code that
>>    describes a reason for the failure. Two possible response codes 
>> are described below,
>>    however other response codes are also possible.
>>
>> i.e. we want to encourage detailed error reporting.
>
> You will note that I have avoided citing RFC 2119 up to this point. 
> RFC 2119 imperatives are *not* to be used to "encourage" anything that 
> does not affect interoperability. I'd really prefer to leave it as-is.

More precise error reporting simplifies debugging and error handling. It 
doesn't affect interoperability directly.

When I see "SHOULD" in a document I usually think "this is pretty 
important, I better implement it". Otherwise I am more likely to ignore it.
I guess this is just me.

Alexey


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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Reconnect-01 Problems
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Original Message-----
> From: ext Arnt Gulbrandsen [mailto:arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no]
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 8:56 AM
...
> It sounds as if the condstore extension addresses your needs=20
> much better=20
> than reconnect. Could you have a look at what condstore can=20
> do for you?

I have. A couple of quick comments are:

1) It seems to be a partial solution.
2) The abstract itself specifically targets a different problem. This =
does not give me a "good" feeling about force fitting to the problem I'm =
concerned about.

Specifically ... I'm interested in optimizing the synchronization of =
mobile mail clients. Yesterday(10/17) I submitted two drafts that =
propose alternate ways of solving this problem. I have asked the WG =
Chairs for a slot at the next IETF to discuss these. I'll post them =
directly in anticipation.

Mike

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Subject: [lemonade] Alternate Solution to Mobile Mail Synchronization
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In addition to what I proposed in CLEARIDLE and CHECKPOINT I submitted a =
draft for constraining the set of messages a mobile client may have to =
deal with. While this draft is distinct from the synchronization problem =
per se it does mitigate the problem of synchronization by limiting the =
volume of information the mobile client has to deal with.

Comments would be appreciated.

Mike

 <<draft-wener-lemonade-msgfilter-00.txt>>=20

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Content-Type: text/plain;
	name="draft-wener-lemonade-msgfilter-00.txt"
Content-Description: draft-wener-lemonade-msgfilter-00.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="draft-wener-lemonade-msgfilter-00.txt"
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 18 16:20:21 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Alternate Solution to Mobile Mail
	SynchronizationOptimization - part 2
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:43:21 -0700
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Isn't it the mechanism proposed by XFILTER in P-IMAP?

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
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 =



-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 11:05 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] Alternate Solution to Mobile Mail SynchronizationOptimi=
zation - part 2


In addition to what I proposed in CLEARIDLE and CHECKPOINT I submitted a dr=
aft for constraining the set of messages a mobile client may have to deal w=
ith. While this draft is distinct from the synchronization problem per se i=
t does mitigate the problem of synchronization by limiting the volume of in=
formation the mobile client has to deal with.

Comments would be appreciated.

Mike

 <<draft-wener-lemonade-msgfilter-00.txt>> =




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> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On
> Behalf Of ext Stephane H. Maes
> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 3:43 PM
...
> Isn't it [MSGFILTER] the mechanism proposed by XFILTER in P-IMAP?

No.

Mike

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Folks, 

A two week last call period is open until midnight EDT Nov 2nd on: 

   Goals for Internet Messaging to Support Diverse Service Environments
   <draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt>

Please forward any comments on this document to the WG mailing list. 

Cheers, 
Glenn. 


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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A two week last call =
period is open until midnight EDT Nov 2nd on:</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=0D&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Goals for Internet Messaging to Support Diverse Service =
Environments=0D&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please forward any =
comments on this document to the WG mailing list.</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT><FONT =
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<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn.</FONT><FONT =
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) - URLAUTH Extension
	Author(s)	: M. Crispin
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-urlauth-03.txt
	Pages		: 0
	Date		: 2004-10-18
	
This document describes the URLAUTH extension to the Internet
    Message Access Protocol (IMAP) (RFC 3501) and the IMAP URL Scheme
    (IMAPURL) (RFC 2192).  This extension provides a means by which an
    IMAP client can use URLs carrying authorization to access limited
    message data on the IMAP server.

    An IMAP server which supports this extension indicates this with a
    capability name of "URLAUTH".

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
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	Title		: Message Submission BURL Extension
	Author(s)	: M. Crispin
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-burl-00.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2004-10-18
	
The submission profile of Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP)
   provides a standard way for an email client to submit a complete
   message for delivery.  This specification extends the submission
   profile by adding a new BURL command which can be used to fetch
   submission data from an Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP)
   server.  This permits a mail client to inject content from an IMAP
   server into the SMTP infrastructure without downloading it to the
   client and uploading it back to the server.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct 19 22:20:47 2004
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
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Subject: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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Draft -03 of URLAUTH is almost ready for Working Group Last Call.  There 
is one point for discussion remaining:

;;; Earlier versions of this document had access identifiers for "any
;;; authorized user" and anonymous.  These were not needed for Lemonade
;;; submit-without-download and were removed.  Should something of this
;;; nature be put back as extensions?

That is, the "access" rule in the Formal Syntax would have two more rules, 
"authuser" and "anonymous".  Whether or not the server actually allows 
this would depend upon server policy.

I feel that this would make URLAUTH more useful, but since these are not 
necessary for Lemonade perhaps these should wait until there's a URLAUTH 
extensions document that also adds other mechanisms.

I'd like a WG decision on this point, and then we're ready for Last Call!

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Mark, hi

I may not be up-to-speed on the discussion that went on when you removed
these access identifiers, but I would think that having an "any
authorized user" option would make URLAUTH more general-purpose and
therefore desirable.  However, "Anonymous" seems to me to be too
dangerous for an authorization to access a user's mailbox and cannot see
its usefulness in this context!

Yaacov (Jerry) Weingarten
Comverse - Standards=20
phone: +972-3-645 2392
mobile: +972-52-854 2392
email: jerry.weingarten@comverse.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Crispin [mailto:mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:35 PM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH


Draft -03 of URLAUTH is almost ready for Working Group Last Call.  There

is one point for discussion remaining:

;;; Earlier versions of this document had access identifiers for "any
;;; authorized user" and anonymous.  These were not needed for Lemonade
;;; submit-without-download and were removed.  Should something of this
;;; nature be put back as extensions?

That is, the "access" rule in the Formal Syntax would have two more
rules,=20
"authuser" and "anonymous".  Whether or not the server actually allows=20
this would depend upon server policy.

I feel that this would make URLAUTH more useful, but since these are not

necessary for Lemonade perhaps these should wait until there's a URLAUTH

extensions document that also adds other mechanisms.

I'd like a WG decision on this point, and then we're ready for Last
Call!

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade

_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On
> Behalf Of ext Mark Crispin
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 11:35 AM
...
> That is, the "access" rule in the Formal Syntax would have=20
> two more rules,=20
> "authuser" and "anonymous".  Whether or not the server=20
> actually allows=20
> this would depend upon server policy.

I'm not sure I understand the use cases for these new access =
identifiers.=20

With URLAUTH there are 3 userids of interest:
1) Userid specifying the locality of the folder containing the target =
UID, i.e. joe@imapserver.com.
2) The authorizing userid.
3) The authenticated userid at the time the URLFETCH is issued.

1 is self explanatory in all cases.

With user+<userid> we have 2=3D3. This implies the userid was =
authenticated both by the imap server and the submission entity.

With submit+<userid> we have 3=3Da user authenticated by the submission =
entity. 2=3Da user validated as under the survey of 3.

With authuser+<userid> we have ... well I'm not sure what we have. Maybe =
3 is any user that has been specifically given access by 2? This is =
similar to submit but 3 is not a submission entity?

With anonymous+<userid> we have 3=3Dto any user? This is equivalent to 2 =
giving access to the world? Maybe a public declaration similar to a =
public folder message?

Mike

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Hi all,
=20
I have some comments on this document - mostly editorial but one or two
requests for clarification -
=20
Editorial comments:
Section 3.2.2 - First sentence should read - "Notification" is the
transaction by which the server notifies ..., i.e. change the word
"with" to "which"!
=20
Section 4 - Change the sentence - "A number of Internet mail profile
supporting specific applications niches have been defined or proposed."
(last sentence) should be changed to read "A number of Internet mail
profile supporting specific application niches have been defined or
proposed.", i.e. remove the 's' from "applications".
=20
Section 4.2.3 (second paragraph) - Change the first sentence where it
states "...and reduce the amount of data that needs be transmitted ..."
to read either "that needs to be" or "that need be".
=20
Section 5.6  (last sentence) - Change the sentence to read "Streaming
between the server and client, in both directions, MUST BE supported",
i.e. the "must be" should be capitalized, other correction for clarity
of the text.
=20
Section 6.1.1.1 (second paragraph) - Change the phrase "or utiliizing an
compnaion streaming protocol" to read "or utilizing a companion..."
(i.e. drop the 'n')
=20
Questions for clarification -
Section 5.2.1 - I don't know if this was ever discussed - however,
another aspect of maintaining the context of the message would be
(continuing the example that is given in this section) that if the
recipient wishes to reply to the voice message then he should be limited
to a format that the sender can access, in this case a voice message!
=20
Section 6.1 - This requirement seems to be limiting the requirement in
section 5.1.1 and if this is the intention, why not just delete section
5.1.1 & 5.1.2?
=20
Section 6.1.1.1 - It was my understanding, from discussion in Vancouver,
that the group felt that the IMAP Channel extension is no longer
relevant.  If this is the case shouldn't reference 38 and this example
both here as well as in the next section be removed?
=20
Section 7.1.2 - I would say that most handsets (i.e. cellular phones)
have a keyboard albeit a very limited one, but still a keyboard!
Therefore, I would suggest to change the statement to be: "Most of them
have either a very limited keyboard, no pointing device, or no screen
navigation capability"
=20
Section 8.5 - The latest version of the 3GPP MMS Reference Architecture
now defines ten interfaces!  The question is whether there is a need to
update this description or just limit it to the v5 of the Ref Arch?
=20
Yaacov (Jerry) Weingarten

Comverse - Standards=20

phone: +972-3-645 2392

mobile: +972-52-854 2392

email: jerry.weingarten@comverse.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Parsons [mailto:gparsons@nortelnetworks.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:16 PM
To: 'lemonade@ietf.org'
Subject: [lemonade] WG last call on Goals



Folks,=20

A two week last call period is open until midnight EDT Nov 2nd on:=20
   Goals for Internet Messaging to Support Diverse Service Environments
<draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt>=20

Please forward any comments on this document to the WG mailing list.=20

Cheers,=20
Glenn.=20

______________________________________________________________________
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Hi all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>I have some comments on this document - =
mostly=20
editorial but one or two requests for clarification =
-</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Editorial comments:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 3.2.2 - First sentence should read -=20
"Notification" is the transaction by which the server notifies ..., i.e. =
change=20
the word "with" to "which"!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 4 - Change the sentence - "A number =
of Internet=20
mail profile supporting specific applications niches have been defined =
or=20
proposed." (last sentence) should be changed to read "A number of =
Internet mail=20
profile supporting specific application niches have been defined or =
proposed.",=20
i.e. remove the 's' from "applications".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 4.2.3 (second paragraph) - Change the =
first=20
sentence where it states "...and reduce the amount of data that needs be =

transmitted ..." to read either "that needs to be" or "that need=20
be".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 5.6&nbsp; (last sentence) - Change =
the sentence=20
to read "Streaming between the server and client, in both directions, =
MUST BE=20
supported", i.e. the "must be" should be capitalized, other correction =
for=20
clarity of the text.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 6.1.1.1 (second paragraph) - Change =
the phrase=20
"or utiliizing an compnaion streaming protocol" to read "or utilizing a=20
companion..." (i.e. drop the 'n')</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Questions for clarification =
-</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 5.2.1 - I don't know if this was ever =
discussed=20
- however, another aspect of maintaining the context of the message =
would be=20
(continuing the example that is given in this section) that if the =
recipient=20
wishes to reply to the voice message then he should be limited to a =
format that=20
the sender can access, in this case a voice message!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 6.1 - This requirement seems to be =
limiting the=20
requirement in section 5.1.1 and if this is the intention, why not just =
delete=20
section 5.1.1 &amp; 5.1.2?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 6.1.1.1 - It was my understanding, =
from=20
discussion in Vancouver, that the group felt that the IMAP Channel =
extension is=20
no longer relevant.&nbsp; If this is the case shouldn't reference 38 and =
this=20
example both here as well as in the next section be =
removed?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 7.1.2 - I would say that most =
handsets (i.e.=20
cellular phones) have a keyboard albeit a very limited one, but still a=20
keyboard!&nbsp; Therefore, I would suggest to change the statement to =
be: "Most=20
of them have either a very limited keyboard, no pointing device, or no =
screen=20
navigation capability"</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 8.5 - The latest version of the 3GPP =
MMS=20
Reference Architecture now defines ten interfaces!&nbsp; The question is =
whether=20
there is a need to update this description or just limit it to the v5 of =
the Ref=20
Arch?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><B><FONT face=3DScript color=3D#ff00ff =
size=3D6>Yaacov=20
(Jerry) Weingarten</FONT></B></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff>Comverse -=20
Standards </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>phone: +972-3-645 2392</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>mobile: +972-52-854 2392</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>email: jerry.weingarten@comverse.com</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Dhe></SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3Dhe></SPAN></P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Glenn Parsons=20
[mailto:gparsons@nortelnetworks.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October =
19, 2004=20
12:16 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'lemonade@ietf.org'<BR><B>Subject:</B> [lemonade] =
WG last=20
call on Goals<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Folks,</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial>=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>A two week last call =
period is open=20
until midnight EDT Nov 2nd on:</FONT><FONT face=3DArial> =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Goals for Internet =
Messaging to=20
Support Diverse Service Environments &nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&lt;draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt&gt;</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Please forward any =
comments on this=20
document to the WG mailing list.</FONT><FONT face=3DArial> </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial>=20
</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Glenn.</FONT><FONT face=3DArial>=20
</FONT></P>______________________________________________________________=
________<BR>This=20
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clean.<BR></BODY></HTML>

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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Weingarten Jerry <Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Weingarten Jerry wrote:
> I may not be up-to-speed on the discussion that went on when you removed
> these access identifiers, but I would think that having an "any
> authorized user" option would make URLAUTH more general-purpose and
> therefore desirable.  However, "Anonymous" seems to me to be too
> dangerous for an authorization to access a user's mailbox and cannot see
> its usefulness in this context!

Here's the justification for anonymous:

Suppose that I have a message in my INBOX with an interesting MPEG in it. 
Why shouldn't I be allowed to issue a URLAUTH to send to you, that allows 
you (who otherwise has no authorization to my system) to access it?

Remember that a URLAUTH does not convey access to the entire mailbox; it 
only conveys access to a specific message or portion of a message.

Remember that I can put an expiration date/time on it, and also revoke 
authorization.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 21 08:25:29 2004
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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand the use cases for these new access identifiers.

Authuser and anonymous are not needed for Lemonade's 
forward-without-download purpose.

Consider something more general.  I have a message containing an 
attachment that I wish to make available.  Currently, I can issue a 
URLAUTH for:
  1) a specific user on my system
  2) the authorized submission entity.

I would like to be able to issue a URLAUTH for anyone at my organization 
(the authuser case), rather than having to issue a separate URLAUTH for 
each person.

I would like to be able to issue a URLAUTH for someone not at my 
organization (the anonymous case) who otherwise has no access to my 
server.

There are safeguards:
  a) I can set an expiration date/time on the URLAUTH.
  b) I can revoke the URLAUTH at any time.
  c) Site policy has to permit anonymous access, so if I work at The Very
     Paranoid Corporation an anonymous URLAUTH is useless since TVPC does
     not allow anonymous authentication to their IMAP server (I don't think
     that any IMAP server allows anonymous by default).

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: mrc@ndcms.cac.washington.edu
> [mailto:mrc@ndcms.cac.washington.edu]On Behalf Of ext Mark Crispin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:06 PM
...
> I would like to be able to issue a URLAUTH for anyone at my=20
> organization=20
> (the authuser case), rather than having to issue a separate=20
> URLAUTH for=20
> each person.
>=20
> I would like to be able to issue a URLAUTH for someone not at my=20
> organization (the anonymous case) who otherwise has no access to my=20
> server.

Could you give an example of the syntax of each?

Mike

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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
> Could you give an example of the syntax of each?

imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2;urlauth=authuser:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038

imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2;expire=2004-10-20T20:45:00-0700;urlauth=anonymous:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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MANY THANKS TO GREG



Attendees
 - Stephan Maes    	stephan.maes@oracle.com
 - mark Crispin    	mrc@washington.edu
 - randy Gellens   	rg+ietf@qualcomm.com
 - Ted Hardie	 	Hardie@qualcomm.com
 - Lyndon Nerenberg	lyndon@orthanc.ca
 - corby wilson    	corby.wilson@nokia.com
 - Jerry Weingarten  	jerry.weingarten@comverse.com
 - Aranaud Meylan	   	ameylan@qualcomm.com
 - Glenn Parsons	  	gparsons@nortelnetworks.com
 - Eric Burger	  	eburger@brooktrout.com
 - Jean Sini	  	siniJ@symbol.com  

By Phone
 - Pete Resenick	  	presnick@qualcomm


Agenda was bashed.

Liaison statements
  - Lemonade received liaison response from T2.  No further response needed
  - OMA liaison previously sent has not received response, Follow-up to be
done
  - Additional OMA response notifying of working group last call for MMS
mapping to be sent via Dean Willis

Working Group Last Calls 
  Completed
  - Glenn to write IESG summary to send to Ted  (Server to Server
Notifications Reqs)
  - MMS Mapping - After Randy makes some last-minute changes
  To be sent
  - Goals document needs WG Last Call for tomorrow.
  - Future Delivery - draft-ietf-lemonade-00   Needs WG Last Call tomorrow

Pull document Review
  - BURL document ready for last call? 
	- Private comments sent to Chris..need to be folded into new
document.
 	- WGLC to be sent, pick up final comments in that review
	- Alexey explicitly named to review document.
  - CATENATE
	- Not ready yet... 
	- How to edit message drafts save on server?  Apparent consensus not
to optimize at this time.
      - Desire is to have appropriate examples in the catenate document.  
	- Describe how to use and choice of simplicity in the profile
document
  - URLAUTH
	- Some editorial messages from Randy to be incorporated before or
after WGLC
	- Add some note text talking about revocation of tokens... if
administrator wants to use
		 stronger algorithm, Randy to contribute text.

Target for pull documents is last call after revised drafts posted before
the close of ID posting interval, with close of the WGLC at the Lemonade WG
meeting in Washington.

Channel
  - Current channel proposal is security challenged
  - GV restated model presented earlier in email as a starting place for
discussion

Open discussion resulted in the following new insights.  The problem space
was split into two

  A) Download of file types using existing IMAP connections.  Add request
for server-side 
	transcoding to the IMAP protocol somehow.
  B) Use URLAUTH to retrieve content from a streaming server using RTSP.
Negotiation is part of RTSP.  
	Some hand waving/work require needed to determine how to use the
URLAUTH in RTSP.

Substantial discussion was conducted to determine if the problem space
triggered any OPES considerations.  The consensus was that this work met the
requirements for explicit request and authorization of content stored in the
subscribers own mailbox.  Also, it was expected that the unmodified content
would remain in the mailbox for access by alternate clients or later times
when better connectivity is available.  A statement to the effect that the
server should never convert without a request from the client was seen as a
good idea.

WG also discussed the charter and convinced ourselves that charter item #1
implied a requirement to provide a mechanism for transcoding requests.

Requirements
  Client controls conversion
  No default conversion on server
  Message contents not changed on server after conversion
  Assumption is Conneg mechanism for IMAP download option.  Streaming
protocols have mechanism based on SDP?
  Go-fish content request mechanisms are bad...  try to reduce trips.
     - maybe client requests ordered list of formats


Discussion of IMAP compression

Presentation made by Aranaud Meylan  (available on VPIM web-site).
Discussion, interpolation, and guessing suggested that compression may be a
red-herring.  Compression of IMAP commands and responses appears to save few
if any packets and no round-trips.  Most text-messages seem short enough
that compression, while effective, does not save packets or round-trips, the
main costs.  Larger contents such as pictures, audio, and video are already
highly compressed.  

Compression tests were most valuable at winning back the base-64 encoding of
large attachments, to which the WG reached consensus that it would be better
to require use binary Fetch.

Various folks will work with Aranaud to better test these hypothesis with
additional testing and/or modeling.  

Rough consensus also achieved that if compression is needed, StartTLS with a
null cypher and compression seems to be the best approach. This also
leverages use of TLS for encryption which is expected to become commonly
available in handset OS's in the target timeframe.

There are some low-handing fruits that may be exploited to minimize IMAP
chattiness, but the working group decided not to complicate or delay
Lemonade 1.0 profile to figure how to exploit these opportunities.

Also some thought that if compression of specific media types such as
text/plain is desired, the conversion could be requested from the server
using the media conversion extensions.

Encryption at a basic "must implement" level appears to be necessary for
enterprise use.

Discussion of notification and Restart

The Lemonade profile will address the requirement for inband "instant"
notification of arrival of new 
messages.   The working group split the problem statement, agreeing that TCP
should survive the underlying networking coming and going.  In that case,
IMAP IDLE provides a good mechanism for notification of new messages.
However, given the widespread lack of support for good TCP behavior, the WG
will acknowledge the need for out-of-band notification that may stimulate a
sleeping client to efficiently reconnect and fetch messages.  

The group discussed a number of concepts but did not have any specific
proposals to review.  There was general interest in improving IMAP
synchronization rather than an explicit session token.  The interest is
motivated by the desire to have fast starts when using server pools and
connection after mid-to-long term disconnection.

Marketing and PR

The WG is enthusiastic, and after a review of charter milestones discussed
the need to engage a marketing-oriented group for PR and promotion of the
Lemonade profile.  Greg Vaudreuil was invited to present the work of the
Lemonade group to the TMIA, meeting in Vancouver in conjunction with the
Lemonade WG meeting :-).  The TMIA may be a reasonable choice to sponsor or
promote interoperability events and PR as and if necessary.


ACTION ITEMS:

Eric Burger will invent (with help) a lightweight mechanism for starting a
RTSP session based on a URLAUTH.  Due after November IETF meeting, but Eric
is expected to do some thinking in time for the WG meeting.

Lyndon Nerenberg will take a first stab, published in an ID before the
November IETF, for a capabilities declaration and transcoding request
mechanism within IMAP. 

Greg is supposed to capture the pictures of options A and B in ASCII art as
part of these minutes.

Randy to post a new version of the MMS mapping document addressing editorial
comments received.

Pete Resnik to post a new version of Catenate including some relevant
examples

Aranaud to iterate on the analysis of the benefits of compression.

Corby and Alexey will continue their collaboration on restart.


Respectfully submitted for WG review by Greg Vaudreuil

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


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Hi all,
=20
I have some comments on this document - mostly editorial but one or two
requests for clarification -
=20
Editorial comments:
Section 3.2.2 - First sentence should read - "Notification" is the
transaction by which the server notifies ..., i.e. change the word
"with" to "which"!
=20
Section 4 - Change the sentence - "A number of Internet mail profile
supporting specific applications niches have been defined or proposed."
(last sentence) should be changed to read "A number of Internet mail
profile supporting specific application niches have been defined or
proposed.", i.e. remove the 's' from "applications".
=20
Section 4.2.3 (second paragraph) - Change the first sentence where it
states "...and reduce the amount of data that needs be transmitted ..."
to read either "that needs to be" or "that need be".
=20
Section 5.6  (last sentence) - Change the sentence to read "Streaming
between the server and client, in both directions, MUST BE supported",
i.e. the "must be" should be capitalized, other correction for clarity
of the text.
=20
Section 6.1.1.1 (second paragraph) - Change the phrase "or utiliizing an
compnaion streaming protocol" to read "or utilizing a companion..."
(i.e. drop the 'n')
=20
Questions for clarification -
Section 5.2.1 - I don't know if this was ever discussed - however,
another aspect of maintaining the context of the message would be
(continuing the example that is given in this section) that if the
recipient wishes to reply to the voice message then he should be limited
to a format that the sender can access, in this case a voice message!
=20
Section 6.1 - This requirement seems to be limiting the requirement in
section 5.1.1 and if this is the intention, why not just delete section
5.1.1 & 5.1.2?
=20
Section 6.1.1.1 - It was my understanding, from discussion in Vancouver,
that the group felt that the IMAP Channel extension is no longer
relevant.  If this is the case shouldn't reference 38 and this example
both here as well as in the next section be removed?
=20
Section 7.1.2 - I would say that most handsets (i.e. cellular phones)
have a keyboard albeit a very limited one, but still a keyboard!
Therefore, I would suggest to change the statement to be: "Most of them
have either a very limited keyboard, no pointing device, or no screen
navigation capability"
=20
Section 8.5 - The latest version of the 3GPP MMS Reference Architecture
now defines ten interfaces!  The question is whether there is a need to
update this description or just limit it to the v5 of the Ref Arch?
=20
Yaacov (Jerry) Weingarten

Comverse - Standards=20

phone: +972-3-645 2392

mobile: +972-52-854 2392

email: jerry.weingarten@comverse.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Parsons [mailto:gparsons@nortelnetworks.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:16 PM
To: 'lemonade@ietf.org'
Subject: [lemonade] WG last call on Goals



Folks,=20

A two week last call period is open until midnight EDT Nov 2nd on:=20
   Goals for Internet Messaging to Support Diverse Service Environments
<draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt>=20

Please forward any comments on this document to the WG mailing list.=20

Cheers,=20
Glenn.=20

______________________________________________________________________
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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Hi all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>I have some comments on this document - =
mostly=20
editorial but one or two requests for clarification =
-</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Editorial comments:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 3.2.2 - First sentence should read -=20
"Notification" is the transaction by which the server notifies ..., i.e. =
change=20
the word "with" to "which"!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 4 - Change the sentence - "A number =
of Internet=20
mail profile supporting specific applications niches have been defined =
or=20
proposed." (last sentence) should be changed to read "A number of =
Internet mail=20
profile supporting specific application niches have been defined or =
proposed.",=20
i.e. remove the 's' from "applications".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 4.2.3 (second paragraph) - Change the =
first=20
sentence where it states "...and reduce the amount of data that needs be =

transmitted ..." to read either "that needs to be" or "that need=20
be".</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 5.6&nbsp; (last sentence) - Change =
the sentence=20
to read "Streaming between the server and client, in both directions, =
MUST BE=20
supported", i.e. the "must be" should be capitalized, other correction =
for=20
clarity of the text.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 6.1.1.1 (second paragraph) - Change =
the phrase=20
"or utiliizing an compnaion streaming protocol" to read "or utilizing a=20
companion..." (i.e. drop the 'n')</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Questions for clarification =
-</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 5.2.1 - I don't know if this was ever =
discussed=20
- however, another aspect of maintaining the context of the message =
would be=20
(continuing the example that is given in this section) that if the =
recipient=20
wishes to reply to the voice message then he should be limited to a =
format that=20
the sender can access, in this case a voice message!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 6.1 - This requirement seems to be =
limiting the=20
requirement in section 5.1.1 and if this is the intention, why not just =
delete=20
section 5.1.1 &amp; 5.1.2?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 6.1.1.1 - It was my understanding, =
from=20
discussion in Vancouver, that the group felt that the IMAP Channel =
extension is=20
no longer relevant.&nbsp; If this is the case shouldn't reference 38 and =
this=20
example both here as well as in the next section be =
removed?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 7.1.2 - I would say that most =
handsets (i.e.=20
cellular phones) have a keyboard albeit a very limited one, but still a=20
keyboard!&nbsp; Therefore, I would suggest to change the statement to =
be: "Most=20
of them have either a very limited keyboard, no pointing device, or no =
screen=20
navigation capability"</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004>Section 8.5 - The latest version of the 3GPP =
MMS=20
Reference Architecture now defines ten interfaces!&nbsp; The question is =
whether=20
there is a need to update this description or just limit it to the v5 of =
the Ref=20
Arch?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654510416-20102004><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><B><FONT face=3DScript color=3D#ff00ff =
size=3D6>Yaacov=20
(Jerry) Weingarten</FONT></B></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff>Comverse -=20
Standards </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>phone: +972-3-645 2392</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>mobile: +972-52-854 2392</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Den-us><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>email: jerry.weingarten@comverse.com</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=3Dltr><SPAN lang=3Dhe></SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3Dhe></SPAN></P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Glenn Parsons=20
[mailto:gparsons@nortelnetworks.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October =
19, 2004=20
12:16 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'lemonade@ietf.org'<BR><B>Subject:</B> [lemonade] =
WG last=20
call on Goals<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Folks,</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial>=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>A two week last call =
period is open=20
until midnight EDT Nov 2nd on:</FONT><FONT face=3DArial> =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; Goals for Internet =
Messaging to=20
Support Diverse Service Environments &nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&lt;draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt&gt;</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Please forward any =
comments on this=20
document to the WG mailing list.</FONT><FONT face=3DArial> </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial>=20
</FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Glenn.</FONT><FONT face=3DArial>=20
</FONT></P>______________________________________________________________=
________<BR>This=20
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clean.<BR></BODY></HTML>

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 21 08:58:24 2004
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Weingarten Jerry wrote:

>Mark, hi
>
>I may not be up-to-speed on the discussion that went on when you removed
>these access identifiers, but I would think that having an "any
>authorized user" option would make URLAUTH more general-purpose and
>therefore desirable.
>
I concur. We need to separate policy (i.e. whether "any authorized user" 
is used in Lemonade context is a policy decision) from syntax.
I would rather avoid the need to extend an extension later and have all 
syntax bits in one document.

>However, "Anonymous" seems to me to be too
>dangerous for an authorization to access a user's mailbox and cannot see
>its usefulness in this context!
>  
>
This is just like a web page with unrestricted access. The owner wants 
to give world access to one of his messages, but not the whole mailbox.


What about adding a "group" construct? "anonymous", "authenticated user" 
and "submit" are all examples of a group of users.

Alexey



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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Mark Crispin [mailto:mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:42 PM
...

I think the uses cases you give make sense.

> imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=3D20/;section=3D1.2;urlauth=3Dauth
> user:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038
>=20

How does the resolving server distinguish between two different group =
accesses?

If I have orgA and orgB both gaining access to sec 1.2 and sec 1.3 =
respectively how does the URLFETCH processing server tell the =
difference?

> imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=3D20/;section=3D1.2;expire=3D2004-
> 10-20T20:45:00-0700;urlauth=3Danonymous:internal:91354a473744909
> de610943775f92038

In both user+<userid> and submit+<userid> I interpreted, based on =
section 2 para 6 and 7, as being the authorizing userid. I saw it as a =
way of tagging the Authorized URL as being from some account. Given this =
I would think something along the lines of anonymous+<userid> would be =
useful.

Mike

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 21 11:31:53 2004
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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
> If I have orgA and orgB both gaining access to sec 1.2 and sec 1.3 
> respectively how does the URLFETCH processing server tell the 
> difference?

Are you asking how does the URLFETCH processing server know which 
organization is accessing the data?  It doesn't.  If you want that type of 
access control, you have to give orgA and orgB accounts on your IMAP 
server, and then use user+<userid>.

> In both user+<userid> and submit+<userid> I interpreted, based on 
> section 2 para 6 and 7, as being the authorizing userid.

No.  In the case of user+<userid>, the IMAP client must log in as that 
userid in order to do a URLFETCH with that URL.

In the case of submit+<userid> (which may be what is confusing you), the 
IMAP client must be logged in as an authorized submit server, and the 
submit server must verify that it is acting on behalf of the userid.

> I saw it as a 
> way of tagging the Authorized URL as being from some account. Given this 
> I would think something along the lines of anonymous+<userid> would be 
> useful.

The purpose of the <userid> value is not for logging.  It's for access 
control.  Anonymous, by definition, has no access control.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>
Subject: Re: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> What about adding a "group" construct? "anonymous", "authenticated user" and 
> "submit" are all examples of a group of users.

Historically, "group" has been an ill-defined concept.  All we need to do 
is look at IMAP ACL to see what a rathole that has been!

I'm not really opposed to "group", but I think that we should stick to the 
entities that we understand.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Mark Crispin [mailto:mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU]
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 11:13 AM
> To: Wener Michael (Nokia-ES/Pittsburgh)
...
> On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
> > If I have orgA and orgB both gaining access to sec 1.2 and sec 1.3=20
> > respectively how does the URLFETCH processing server tell the=20
> > difference?
>=20
> Are you asking how does the URLFETCH processing server know which=20
> organization is accessing the data?  It doesn't.  If you want=20

No.

I'm asking how the URLFETCH processing server knows which organization =
the accessing user is a part of.

So userA has a URLAUTH url. He logs into an IMAP server and issues the =
URLFETCH. Authuser is supposed to restrict access only to users of a =
certain organization. How does the imap server know when to allow =
access? Why couldn't userB from some other organization use the URL as =
well?

>=20
> > I saw it as a=20
> > way of tagging the Authorized URL as being from some=20
> account. Given this=20
> > I would think something along the lines of=20
> anonymous+<userid> would be=20

I was confusing the granted userid with the granting userid. In this =
case I was thinking of userid as the granting userid.

Mike




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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 21 15:26:48 2004
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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:08:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 Michael.Wener@nokia.com wrote:
>> Are you asking how does the URLFETCH processing server know which
>> organization is accessing the data?  It doesn't.
> No.
> I'm asking how the URLFETCH processing server knows which organization 
> the accessing user is a part of.

I don't see any real difference between these two.  It's just two ways of 
saying the same thing.

> So userA has a URLAUTH url. He logs into an IMAP server and issues the 
> URLFETCH. Authuser is supposed to restrict access only to users of a 
> certain organization. How does the imap server know when to allow 
> access? Why couldn't userB from some other organization use the URL as 
> well?

I think that you may have misunderstood authuser.  Authuser restricts 
access to authorized users of the IMAP server.  In other words, the 
"organization" for authuser is the "set of individuals who have accounts 
on the IMAP server."

userB can't use an authuser URLAUTH URL unless she has an account on the 
IMAP server.

Let's see if this clarifies things for you.  mrc creates a URLAUTH URL, 
and gives the URL to annie.  Here's the requirements set by each access 
identifier:

Existing:
---------
user+annie	annie must be able to log into the IMAP server as annie.
 		Nobody but annie can access it, and annie can't submit a
 		message that asks the submit server to use it.
submit+annie	the submit server must log into the IMAP server after it
 		has verified that it was annie making the request.  annie
 		can't access it directly.  Nobody else can submit a
 		message that asks the submit server to use it.

Proposed:
---------
authuser	anyone who can log into the IMAP server (it doesn't
 		matter what userid) can use this URL directly.  Anyone who
 		is authorized to submit a message to the submit server can
 		submit a message that asks the submit server to use it.
anonymous	anyone can use this URL directly.

For the purposes of Lemonade forward-without-download, only 
submit+<userid> is needed.  However, other Lemonade purposes 
(specifically, CATENATE) may also find user+<userid> useful.

authuser and anonymous are not needed for Lemonade, but I believe would be 
useful for other purposes.

> I was confusing the granted userid with the granting userid. In this 
> case I was thinking of userid as the granting userid.

That's identified in the basic IMAP URL, not in the URLAUTH extension.

-- Mark --

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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To: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>, Michael.Wener@nokia.com
From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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At 12:08 PM -0700 10/21/04, Mark Crispin wrote:
>
>Let's see if this clarifies things for you.  mrc creates a URLAUTH 
>URL, and gives the URL to annie.  Here's the requirements set by 
>each access identifier:
>
>Existing:
>---------
>user+annie	annie must be able to log into the IMAP server as annie.
>		Nobody but annie can access it, and annie can't submit a
>		message that asks the submit server to use it.
>submit+annie	the submit server must log into the IMAP server after it
>		has verified that it was annie making the request.  annie
>		can't access it directly.  Nobody else can submit a
>		message that asks the submit server to use it.
>
>Proposed:
>---------
>authuser	anyone who can log into the IMAP server (it doesn't
>		matter what userid) can use this URL directly.  Anyone who
>		is authorized to submit a message to the submit server can
>		submit a message that asks the submit server to use it.
>anonymous	anyone can use this URL directly.


Just to be clear, the reason you don't want to do this by creating
an actual userid called "anonymous"  is that Annie, logged in as
"anonymous", should not get any other rights than to fetch a
specfic URI  and letting her log in as "anonymous" might grant
those rights?

Or am I missing something here?
				Ted

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From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Ted Hardie wrote:
> Just to be clear, the reason you don't want to do this by creating
> an actual userid called "anonymous"  is that Annie, logged in as
> "anonymous", should not get any other rights than to fetch a
> specfic URI  and letting her log in as "anonymous" might grant
> those rights?

As in FTP, anonymous is a special access class in IMAP.  There is a 
specific SASL authentication mechanism named ANONYMOUS (RFC 2245) which 
replaces the old convention of logging in with a username of anonymous.

The precise semantics of anonymous access in IMAP are dictated by the 
server implementation and by server management policy.  In UW imapd, 
anonymous is disabled unless explicitly enabled by site management, is 
allowed access only to certain namespaces (#news, #ftp, #public), and 
numerous commands are disabled (e.g. COPY, APPEND, CREATE, DELETE, etc.) 
or crippled (SELECT always becomes EXAMINE), etc.

In any case, logging in as anonymous with any password is considered to be 
an obsolete convention now that the ANONYMOUS SASL mechanism exists.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:20:03 -0700
To: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
From: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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At 3:09 PM -0700 10/21/04, Mark Crispin wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Ted Hardie wrote:
>>Just to be clear, the reason you don't want to do this by creating
>>an actual userid called "anonymous"  is that Annie, logged in as
>>"anonymous", should not get any other rights than to fetch a
>>specfic URI  and letting her log in as "anonymous" might grant
>>those rights?
>
>As in FTP, anonymous is a special access class in IMAP.  There is a 
>specific SASL authentication mechanism named ANONYMOUS (RFC 2245) 
>which replaces the old convention of logging in with a username of 
>anonymous.
>
>The precise semantics of anonymous access in IMAP are dictated by 
>the server implementation and by server management policy.  In UW 
>imapd, anonymous is disabled unless explicitly enabled by site 
>management, is allowed access only to certain namespaces (#news, 
>#ftp, #public), and numerous commands are disabled (e.g. COPY, 
>APPEND, CREATE, DELETE, etc.) or crippled (SELECT always becomes 
>EXAMINE), etc.
>
>In any case, logging in as anonymous with any password is considered 
>to be an obsolete convention now that the ANONYMOUS SASL mechanism 
>exists.
>


Okay; I was working from RFC 2192's description of the URI scheme,
which predates  RFC 2245.  I read it to mean there were multiple possible
auth types, not just SASL.  To be clear I've got your explanation
right, let me reflect it back:  "IMAP  no longer allows a userid 
anonymous; there
is a set of rights grants to those logging in using SASL anonymous,
but that is never associated with a userid".  Right?

  As an aside, is there a planned update of RFC 2192?

Let's go back to the example a moment:

imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2;expire=2004-10-20T20:45:00-0700;urlauth=anonymous:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038

Though I can see the use case for this, I don't think it is in the core part of
the forward-without-download mission for this.  If we start to think about
URLAUTH as a more general mechanism, I suspect that we may want to
think about other things as well (for example, generalizing submit+).
My personal 2 cents are on keeping this as lean as possible at the moment,
and considering expansion later.

			regards,
				Ted

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 16:53:04 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time)
From: Mark Crispin <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>
To: Ted Hardie <hardie@qualcomm.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Working Group Last Call on URLAUTH
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On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Ted Hardie wrote:
> To be clear I've got your explanation
> right, let me reflect it back:  "IMAP  no longer allows a userid anonymous; 
> there
> is a set of rights grants to those logging in using SASL anonymous,
> but that is never associated with a userid".  Right?

It isn't a question of allowing or disallowing userid anonymous; userid 
anonymous was nothing more than a convention with no official status. 
The ANONYMOUS mechanism for SASL has official status.

> As an aside, is there a planned update of RFC 2192?

I don't know.

> Let's go back to the example a moment:
> imap://joe@example.com/INBOX/;uid=20/;section=1.2;expire=2004-10-20T20:45:00-0700;urlauth=anonymous:internal:91354a473744909de610943775f92038
> Though I can see the use case for this, I don't think it is in the core 
> part of the forward-without-download mission for this.

I thought that I already said this.  Neither anonymous nor authuser are 
needed for Lemonade forward-without-download.  The issue at hand is that 
they were anticipated as part of URLAUTH from inception, were removed from 
URLAUTH as it was causing a distraction to the push/pull discussion.

The question is simply: is it alright to put them back?  If they do not go 
into URLAUTH now I will probably promptly produce a non-WG URLAUTH 
Extensions document for them, since I have other (non-Lemonade) purposes 
for these.  In fact, not having these two would diminish much of the 
reason that I have to implement URLAUTH.

> If we start to 
> think about URLAUTH as a more general mechanism, I suspect that we may 
> want to think about other things as well (for example, generalizing 
> submit+). My personal 2 cents are on keeping this as lean as possible at 
> the moment, and considering expansion later.

I'm sympathetic to this; you'll notice that I haven't mentioned anything 
about client-created URLAUTHs and the necessary non-INTERNAL mechanisms to 
allow such.  But, at least for me, anonymous and authuser are pretty basic 
to a URLAUTH facility and are significant attractants for server 
implementors who would otherwise not care able the Lemonade community.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Mark Crispin [mailto:mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU]
> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 3:09 PM
...
> I think that you may have misunderstood authuser.  Authuser restricts=20
> access to authorized users of the IMAP server.  In other words, the=20
> "organization" for authuser is the "set of individuals who=20
> have accounts=20
> on the IMAP server."

Thank You. This clarifies things nicely.

Mike

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> Discussion of IMAP compression
>=20
...
> Encryption at a basic "must implement" level appears to be=20
> necessary for
> enterprise use.

Is there a little more detail about what this means? At face value this =
would seem obvious, but the question is how?

Mike

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To: lemonade@ietf.org, "Weingarten Jerry" <Jerry.Weingarten@comverse.com>
From: Kue Wong <jkwong@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: RE: [lemonade] WG last call on Goals - comments
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Hi Jerry,

Thanks for your feedback.

Your editorial comments will be incorporated in the next goals draft.

I have a comment on your question about section 6.1 and 5.1.1 and 5.1.2.
The intent of section 5 was to enumerate some general principles to apply
in extending mail protocols. These principles (including 5.1.1 and 
5.1.2) as well
as other pragmatic considerations lead to the decision to limit the 
lemonade charter
to extending IMAP (6.1). Do you think the text needs to be reworked to make
this clearer?

I am in agreement with your comment on section 7.1.2 and will make 
appropriate text
changes. (Handsets do have keypads which are rudimentary keyboards.)

As for your other questions, I encourage more feedback/discussion from/by the
list.

Thanks,
Kue Wong
goals draft editor

>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C4B736.91BE5062"
>
>Hi all,
>
>I have some comments on this document - mostly editorial but one or 
>two requests for clarification -
>
>Editorial comments:
>Section 3.2.2 - First sentence should read - "Notification" is the 
>transaction by which the server notifies ..., i.e. change the word 
>"with" to "which"!
>
>Section 4 - Change the sentence - "A number of Internet mail profile 
>supporting specific applications niches have been defined or 
>proposed." (last sentence) should be changed to read "A number of 
>Internet mail profile supporting specific application niches have 
>been defined or proposed.", i.e. remove the 's' from "applications".
>
>Section 4.2.3 (second paragraph) - Change the first sentence where 
>it states "...and reduce the amount of data that needs be 
>transmitted ..." to read either "that needs to be" or "that need be".
>
>Section 5.6  (last sentence) - Change the sentence to read 
>"Streaming between the server and client, in both directions, MUST 
>BE supported", i.e. the "must be" should be capitalized, other 
>correction for clarity of the text.
>
>Section 6.1.1.1 (second paragraph) - Change the phrase "or 
>utiliizing an compnaion streaming protocol" to read "or utilizing a 
>companion..." (i.e. drop the 'n')
>
>Questions for clarification -
>Section 5.2.1 - I don't know if this was ever discussed - however, 
>another aspect of maintaining the context of the message would be 
>(continuing the example that is given in this section) that if the 
>recipient wishes to reply to the voice message then he should be 
>limited to a format that the sender can access, in this case a voice 
>message!
>
>Section 6.1 - This requirement seems to be limiting the requirement 
>in section 5.1.1 and if this is the intention, why not just delete 
>section 5.1.1 & 5.1.2?
>
>Section 6.1.1.1 - It was my understanding, from discussion in 
>Vancouver, that the group felt that the IMAP Channel extension is no 
>longer relevant.  If this is the case shouldn't reference 38 and 
>this example both here as well as in the next section be removed?
>
>Section 7.1.2 - I would say that most handsets (i.e. cellular 
>phones) have a keyboard albeit a very limited one, but still a 
>keyboard!  Therefore, I would suggest to change the statement to be: 
>"Most of them have either a very limited keyboard, no pointing 
>device, or no screen navigation capability"
>
>Section 8.5 - The latest version of the 3GPP MMS Reference 
>Architecture now defines ten interfaces!  The question is whether 
>there is a need to update this description or just limit it to the 
>v5 of the Ref Arch?
>
>
>Yaacov (Jerry) Weingarten
>
>Comverse - Standards
>
>phone: +972-3-645 2392
>
>mobile: +972-52-854 2392
>
>email: jerry.weingarten@comverse.com
>

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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>RE: [lemonade] WG last call on Goals -
comments</title></head><body>
<div>Hi Jerry,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Thanks for your feedback.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Your editorial comments will be incorporated in the next goals
draft.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have a comment on your question about section 6.1 and 5.1.1 and
5.1.2.</div>
<div>The intent of section 5 was to enumerate some general principles
to apply</div>
<div>in extending mail protocols. These principles (including 5.1.1
and 5.1.2) as well</div>
<div>as other pragmatic considerations lead to the decision to limit
the lemonade charter</div>
<div>to extending IMAP (6.1). Do you think the text needs to be
reworked to make</div>
<div>this clearer?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I am in agreement with your comment on section 7.1.2 and will
make appropriate text</div>
<div>changes. (Handsets do have keypads which are rudimentary
keyboards.)</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As for your other questions, I encourage more feedback/discussion
from/by the</div>
<div>list.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Kue Wong</div>
<div>goals draft editor</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Content-class:
urn:content-classes:message<br>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;
</x-tab>boundary=&quot;----_=_NextPart_001_01C4B736.91BE5062&quot;<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Hi all,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">I have some comments on this document - mostly
editorial but one or two requests for clarification
-</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Editorial comments:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 3.2.2 - First sentence should read -
&quot;Notification&quot; is the transaction by which the server
notifies ..., i.e. change the word &quot;with&quot; to
&quot;which&quot;!</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 4 - Change the sentence - &quot;A number of
Internet mail profile supporting specific applications niches have
been defined or proposed.&quot; (last sentence) should be changed to
read &quot;A number of Internet mail profile supporting specific
application niches have been defined or proposed.&quot;, i.e. remove
the 's' from &quot;applications&quot;.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 4.2.3 (second paragraph) - Change the first
sentence where it states &quot;...and reduce the amount of data that
needs be transmitted ...&quot; to read either &quot;that needs to be&quot;
or &quot;that need be&quot;.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 5.6&nbsp; (last sentence) - Change the
sentence to read &quot;Streaming between the server and client, in
both directions, MUST BE supported&quot;, i.e. the &quot;must be&quot;
should be capitalized, other correction for clarity of the
text.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 6.1.1.1 (second paragraph) - Change the phrase
&quot;or utiliizing an compnaion streaming protocol&quot; to read
&quot;or utilizing a companion...&quot; (i.e. drop the
'n')</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Questions for clarification -</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 5.2.1 - I don't know if this was ever
discussed - however, another aspect of maintaining the context of the
message would be (continuing the example that is given in this
section) that if the recipient wishes to reply to the voice message
then he should be limited to a format that the sender can access, in
this case a voice message!</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 6.1 - This requirement seems to be limiting
the requirement in section 5.1.1 and if this is the intention, why not
just delete section 5.1.1 &amp; 5.1.2?</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 6.1.1.1 - It was my understanding, from
discussion in Vancouver, that the group felt that the IMAP Channel
extension is no longer relevant.&nbsp; If this is the case shouldn't
reference 38 and this example both here as well as in the next section
be removed?</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 7.1.2 - I would say that most handsets (i.e.
cellular phones) have a keyboard albeit a very limited one, but still
a keyboard!&nbsp; Therefore, I would suggest to change the statement
to be: &quot;Most of them have either a very limited keyboard, no
pointing device, or no screen navigation
capability&quot;</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Section 8.5 - The latest version of the 3GPP MMS
Reference Architecture now defines ten interfaces!&nbsp; The question
is whether there is a need to update this description or just limit it
to the v5 of the Ref Arch?</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font size="+3" color="#FF00FF"><b>Yaacov
(Jerry) Weingarten</b></font><br>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">Comverse - Standards</font><br>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">phone: +972-3-645 2392</font><br>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">mobile: +972-52-854 2392</font><br>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF">email: jerry.weingarten@comverse.com</font><br>
<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="-1"
color="#0000FF"></font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>
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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct 22 10:51:39 2004
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From: "Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg)" <gregv@lucent.com>
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com, eburger@brooktrout.com, lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:42:32 -0500
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The observation was that all enterprises the assembled group is familiar with either use an encrypted VPN tunnel or SSL encryption of IMAP traffic.  VPN's were seen as impractical for limited resource devices and a major impediment to the use of IMAP in that target market.  Based on that, and the desire to support that market, it seems that a minimum must-implement encryption support makes sense in the base profile.    It was postulated that all mobile handsets will support SSL encryption in the Lemonade timeframe, likely in the OS, in support of various other functions such as secure web and e-commerce applications.    Details to be determined later.

Does this help?  Other comments?

Greg V.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael.Wener@nokia.com [mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com]
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:21 AM
To: eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes


> Discussion of IMAP compression
> 
...
> Encryption at a basic "must implement" level appears to be 
> necessary for
> enterprise use.

Is there a little more detail about what this means? At face value this would seem obvious, but the question is how?

Mike

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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
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Yes, this is helpful, and as expected. Thank You.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg) [mailto:gregv@lucent.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 10:43 AM
> To: Wener Michael (Nokia-ES/Pittsburgh); eburger@brooktrout.com;
> lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
>=20
>=20
> The observation was that all enterprises the assembled group=20
> is familiar with either use an encrypted VPN tunnel or SSL=20
> encryption of IMAP traffic.  VPN's were seen as impractical=20
> for limited resource devices and a major impediment to the=20
> use of IMAP in that target market.  Based on that, and the=20
> desire to support that market, it seems that a minimum=20
> must-implement encryption support makes sense in the base=20
> profile.    It was postulated that all mobile handsets will=20
> support SSL encryption in the Lemonade timeframe, likely in=20
> the OS, in support of various other functions such as secure=20
> web and e-commerce applications.    Details to be determined later.
>=20
> Does this help?  Other comments?
>=20
> Greg V.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael.Wener@nokia.com [mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:21 AM
> To: eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
>=20
>=20
> > Discussion of IMAP compression
> >=20
> ...
> > Encryption at a basic "must implement" level appears to be=20
> > necessary for
> > enterprise use.
>=20
> Is there a little more detail about what this means? At face=20
> value this would seem obvious, but the question is how?
>=20
> Mike
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
>=20

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct 22 11:20:54 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 08:07:49 -0700
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Greg,

You should also mention the fact that if proxys are used outsid the enterpr=
ise domain, the messages should not be in the clear atteh proxy.

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg)
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:43 AM
To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com; eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes


The observation was that all enterprises the assembled group is familiar wi=
th either use an encrypted VPN tunnel or SSL encryption of IMAP traffic.  V=
PN's were seen as impractical for limited resource devices and a major impe=
diment to the use of IMAP in that target market.  Based on that, and the de=
sire to support that market, it seems that a minimum must-implement encrypt=
ion support makes sense in the base profile.    It was postulated that all =
mobile handsets will support SSL encryption in the Lemonade timeframe, like=
ly in the OS, in support of various other functions such as secure web and =
e-commerce applications.    Details to be determined later.

Does this help?  Other comments?

Greg V.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael.Wener@nokia.com [mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com]
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:21 AM
To: eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes


> Discussion of IMAP compression
> =

...
> Encryption at a basic "must implement" level appears to be
> necessary for
> enterprise use.

Is there a little more detail about what this means? At face value this wou=
ld seem obvious, but the question is how?

Mike

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade



_______________________________________________
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lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


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Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:51:05 -0500
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Was this split deployment discussed?=20

What I mean by split is where two servers, one proxying for the other =
and both IMAP protocol aware, are split between two organizations that =
do not trust each other.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On
> Behalf Of ext Stephane H. Maes
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:08 AM
> To: lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
>=20
>=20
> Greg,
>=20
> You should also mention the fact that if proxys are used=20
> outsid the enterprise domain, the messages should not be in=20
> the clear atteh proxy.
>=20
> Stephane
>=20
> _____
> Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
> Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
> Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222;=20
> Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
> e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
> IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
> =20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Vaudreuil,=20
> Greg M (Greg)
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:43 AM
> To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com; eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
>=20
>=20
> The observation was that all enterprises the assembled group=20
> is familiar with either use an encrypted VPN tunnel or SSL=20
> encryption of IMAP traffic.  VPN's were seen as impractical=20
> for limited resource devices and a major impediment to the=20
> use of IMAP in that target market.  Based on that, and the=20
> desire to support that market, it seems that a minimum=20
> must-implement encryption support makes sense in the base=20
> profile.    It was postulated that all mobile handsets will=20
> support SSL encryption in the Lemonade timeframe, likely in=20
> the OS, in support of various other functions such as secure=20
> web and e-commerce applications.    Details to be determined later.
>=20
> Does this help?  Other comments?
>=20
> Greg V.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael.Wener@nokia.com [mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:21 AM
> To: eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
>=20
>=20
> > Discussion of IMAP compression
> >=20
> ...
> > Encryption at a basic "must implement" level appears to be
> > necessary for
> > enterprise use.
>=20
> Is there a little more detail about what this means? At face=20
> value this would seem obvious, but the question is how?
>=20
> Mike
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
>=20

_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Oct 22 13:17:07 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:03:56 -0700
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Yes as a use case that de facto exists today in mobile e-mail deployments.
Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael.Wener@nokia.com [mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com] =

Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:51 AM
To: stephane.maes@oracle.com; lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes



Was this split deployment discussed? =


What I mean by split is where two servers, one proxying for the other and b=
oth IMAP protocol aware, are split between two organizations that do not tr=
ust each other.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org]On
> Behalf Of ext Stephane H. Maes
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:08 AM
> To: lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
> =

> =

> Greg,
> =

> You should also mention the fact that if proxys are used
> outsid the enterprise domain, the messages should not be in =

> the clear atteh proxy.
> =

> Stephane
> =

> _____
> Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
> Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
> Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222;
> Office UM: +1-650-607-6296.
> e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
> IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
>  =

> =

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org
> [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Vaudreuil, =

> Greg M (Greg)
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 7:43 AM
> To: Michael.Wener@nokia.com; eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
> =

> =

> The observation was that all enterprises the assembled group
> is familiar with either use an encrypted VPN tunnel or SSL =

> encryption of IMAP traffic.  VPN's were seen as impractical =

> for limited resource devices and a major impediment to the =

> use of IMAP in that target market.  Based on that, and the =

> desire to support that market, it seems that a minimum =

> must-implement encryption support makes sense in the base =

> profile.    It was postulated that all mobile handsets will =

> support SSL encryption in the Lemonade timeframe, likely in =

> the OS, in support of various other functions such as secure =

> web and e-commerce applications.    Details to be determined later.
> =

> Does this help?  Other comments?
> =

> Greg V.
> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael.Wener@nokia.com [mailto:Michael.Wener@nokia.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:21 AM
> To: eburger@brooktrout.com; lemonade@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [lemonade] Draft Interim Minutes
> =

> =

> > Discussion of IMAP compression
> > =

> ...
> > Encryption at a basic "must implement" level appears to be necessary =

> > for enterprise use.
> =

> Is there a little more detail about what this means? At face
> value this would seem obvious, but the question is how?
> =

> Mike
> =

> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> =

> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> =

> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> lemonade mailing list
> lemonade@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade
> 



_______________________________________________
lemonade mailing list
lemonade@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lemonade


From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Oct 24 07:37:03 2004
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Subject: [lemonade] Submission of draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt
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Please find attached draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt submitted as =
internet draft to Lemonade.

Thanks

Stephane
_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 

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Lemonade                                                                =

Internet Draft: Mobile E-mai                                 S. H. Maes =

Document: draft-maes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt    Oracle Corporation =

Expires: April 2005                                        October 2004 =

    =

    =

	                Lemonade and Mobile e-mail
    =

Status of this Memo =

    =

   This document is an Internet-Draft and is subject to all provisions =

   of Section 10 of RFC2026.  By submitting this Internet-Draft, each =

   author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of =

   which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of =

   which he or she become aware will be disclosed, in accordance with =

   RFC 3668. =

    =

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering =

   Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that =

   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-
   Drafts. =

    =

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any =

   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference =

   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." =

    =

   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at =

        http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt =

    =

   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at =

        http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. =

    =

Abstract =

    =

   This document describes the challenges with mobile e-mail in order to =

  identify the challenges that are within the mobile profile of Lemonade. =

 =

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Maes                                                          [Page 1] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

Conventions used in this document =

    =

    =

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", =

   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this =

   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119]. =

    =

   An implementation is not compliant if it fails to satisfy one or more =

   of the MUST or REQUIRED level requirements for the protocol(s) it =

   implements. An implementation that satisfies all the MUST or REQUIRED =

   level and all the SHOULD level requirements for a protocol is said to =

   be "unconditionally compliant" to that protocol; one that satisfies =

   all the MUST level requirements but not all the SHOULD level =

   requirements is said to be "conditionally compliant."  When describing =

   the general syntax, some definitions are omitted as they are defined =

   in [RFC3501]. =

 =

Table of Contents =

          =

   Status of this Memo...............................................1 =

   Abstract..........................................................1 =

   Conventions used in this document.................................2 =

   Table of Contents.................................................2 =

   1. Introduction...................................................3 =

      1.1. Definitions...............................................3 =

      1.2. Main Expectations.........................................3 =

      1.3. Additional Considerations.................................3 =

      1.4. Main actors...............................................4 =

      1.5. Other players in Ecosystem................................4 =

   2. Challenges.....................................................4 =

      2.1. Devices...................................................4 =

      2.2. Networks and operators....................................5 =

      2.3. Enterprises and other e-mail service providers............6 =

   3. Deployment models..............................................6 =

   4. Scope, objectives of Lemonade Mobile Profile: Recommendations..8 =

   Security Considerations...........................................9 =

   Authors Addresses.................................................9 =

   Intellectual Property Statement...................................9 =

   Acknowledgment...................................................10 =

   Full Copyright Statement.........................................10 =


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Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 2] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

1.  Introduction =


   This document describes the challenges associated to mobile e-mail.
 =

1.1.  Definitions =


   Mobile e-mail is defined as "Access to e-mail while mobile". =


1.1.  Main Expectations
    =

   The main expectations for mobile e-mail are:
        - To receive quasi-instantaneous notification of new e-mails when =

        within coverage (if setup this way)
	- To reflect quasi-instantaneously new e-mail or e-mail server events
	in the mobile client when within coverage
	- To send quasi-instantaneously e-mail composed on mobile client from
	appropriate e-mail server when within coverage or as soon that =

	coverage is established otherwise
	- To efficiently manipulate e-mails / drafts / attachment as needed =

	or as preferred =

	- End-to-end secure when needed (e.g. e-mails may at no point be in =

	clear outside enterprise domain)
	- Low or at least bearable cost of usage (e.g. traffic / bandwidth =

	optimization, predictable cost, manageable traffic, ...)
   Note that the notion of quasi-instantenous refers to the impression of t=
he
   user and not to a particular precise duration: the user has the feeling =
=

   that something happens in a way that is quasi-instantenous. This may be =
=

   equivalent to some desktop user experience or sometimes be faster or =

   slower than desktop. That is not important as the user can usually not =

   compare. On the other hand, some overall behavior clearly violate this =

   principle (e.g. if the client waits for the user to "browse" its mailbox=
 =

   with a client to download the headers or even the whole messages).
    =

1.3.  Additional Considerations
    =

    The following considerations are also important for mobile e-mail
    - Need for graceful degradation and server-to-client notifications (tha=
t =

    client can display instead if acting on and that informs the user). =

    - Format adaptation (attachments, page, ...)
    - DRM rules: how to respect DRM rules like forward lock
    - Provisioning / setup: These are extremely challenging on mobile devic=
es
    with limited or challenging input capabilities. Also average users are =
=

    more easily confused and unable to correctly setup mobile phones
    - Charging: Operator want to maintain charging to create a viable =

    business model. They may prevent the deployment of mobile email solutio=
ns
    that do not permit charging for e-mail services.
    - Synchronization with other clients:
       - e.g. Peer to peer vs. with server (SyncML / OMA DS, ActiveSync, ..=
.)
    - Relationship to PIM (agenda / Address Book)
 =

Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 3] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

 =

1.4.  Main Actors
    =

   The main actors are:  =

      - User
      - Operators of the mobile network
      - E-mail service provider:
	- Service provider (e.g. Operator, other e-mail server provider)
	- Enterprise
 =

 =

1.4.  Other players in ecosystem
 =

   Other actors influence decisions related to mobile e-mail:
	- Device Manufacturers
	- Client software providers
	- E-mail server manufacturers:
		 - E-mail server
		 - Mobile e-mail enablement server
     =

 =

2. Challenges =

    =

 =

2.1.  Devices
 =

   Devices present the following challenges that directly impact mobile =

   e-mail:
       - Constrained memory / processing power (always improving):
	    - Wide range to support
       - Limited battery life (will remain a problem for a long time):
	    - Constrains processing capability
	    - Constrains connectivity patterns (not always fully connected =

	    but may be awaken via outband notifications...)
		- Notifications / wake-up are to be supported by mobile e-mail =

	    - Constraints acceptable bandwidth
       - More exotic platforms:
	    - Sometimes proprietary or closed
	    - Challenging or controlled software distribution channels:
		- Installing, provisioning, supporting, upgrading,...
		  - E.g. DRM trusted clients
		- Wide range of control models by:
		  - device manufacturer, operator, enterprise, user
 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

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Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 4] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

 =

2.2. Networks and operators
 =

   Mobile networks and operators impose additional constraints that must be=
 =

   taken into account when designing mobile e-mail solutions:
	 - Different underlying network technologies / bearers with =

	 different behavior / capabilities
	 - Intermittent connectivity:
	     - Loss of coverage
	     - Nature of mobility (e.g. radio turned off in planes)
	     - Temporary IP addresses
	     - Unreliable delivery (Connection)
	     - Underlying network layer (up to transport) may drop at any =

	     time. Even if then re-established, sessions at the transport =

	     level are maintained only if the transport protocol provide =

	     mechanisms to maintain it when the network connection is =

	     re-established. Otherwise, additional mechanisms are needed at =

	     the application protocol layer to establish and =

	     maintain/recover session if a session is needed or assumed. =

	 - Out band notification schemes
	     - Unreliable
	     - But can be used as "wake up / notification scheme"
	 - Limited bandwidth:
	     - Limited capabilities shared across all users
	     - Roaming within and across domain / operators / technologies
	 - Cost:
	     - Multiple cost models (free, unlimited, per packet, per =

	     service / type of service, ...)
	     - In general, ... Costly and in need of optimization to maintain
	     cost acceptable enough to user and to allow operator to share
	     network with enough users.
	 - Controlled:
	   - Walled garden:
	      - Inbound and outbound traffic
	      - Internal traffic
	   - With it=92s own authentication mechanisms etc...
	 - Regulated:
	   - QoS
	   - Privacy
	   - Exchanged data
	   - Reachability
	   - Logging
	   - Accountability
	   - ...

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 5] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

 =

 2.3. Enterprises and other e-mail service providers
 =

   Enterprises must reconcile mobile e-mail deployments with the following =
=

   requirements:
	- Walled garden intranets:
             - Firewalls, VPN, ...
        - IT Corporate security guidelines:
	     - Wide range - in general VERY conservative e.g.
		    - Require end-to-end security
		    - Allowed applications / usages / content
		    - Firewalls / ports / protocols =

		      - (e.g. only HTTP or HTTPS; no SSL/TLS)
		    - No storage of company data outside intranet =

		    (in clear or not). This is why MMS solutions are not =

		    acceptable
         - Regulated:
	     - E.g. Journaling / Storage of all corporate e-mails
	 - Control usage costs
	 - Need to integrate with existing IT infrastructure (instead of =

	 replacing them).
 =

 =

 3. Deployment models
 =

   The generic logical architecture and protocol to support mobile e-mail =

   include: =

	 - Mobile e-mail server (backend e.g. IMAP server)
	 - Connected (e.g. via IMAP) through a "connector"
	 - to a mobile e-mail enabling server
	    - Connected:
		- Via mobile e-mail protocol to a mobile e-mail client
		- Via other protocols to mobile enablers that support =

		functions like:
			  - Outband notifications
			  - Provisioning
			  - ...
   Firewalls may exist:
	 - 1) Between connectors and mobile e-mail enabling server
	 - 2) Between:
		- Mobile client and mobile e-mail enabling server
		- Mobile enablers and mobile e-mail enabling server

   Possible deployments include:
      A: Mobile e-mail by operators: "operator hosted e-mail service"
	 - Device in network
	 - Mobile "enabled" email server in Operator=92s Domain
	 - Roaming across compatible networks / operators
      B: Mobile e-mail by E-mail service provider (enterprise, ISP):
	 - Device in operator network (including roaming)
	 - Mobile "enabled" email E-mail server in service provider
 =

Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 6] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

 =

      C: Outsourced mobile enablement of E-mail service provider:
		1. By Operator (operator hosted)
		2. By other third party service provider
	 - Device in operator network (including roaming)
	 - E-mail server in other domain

   Deployment A is characterized by: =

      * In operator(s) domain: =

	 - Mobile e-mail server (backend e.g. IMAP server)
	 - Connected (e.g. via IMAP) through a "connector"
	 - to a mobile e-mail enabling server
	 - Connected:
		- Via mobile e-mail protocol to a mobile e-mail client
		- Via other protocols to mobile enablers that support =

		functions like:
			  - Outband notifications
			  - Provisioning
                          - ...
         Firewalls may exist:
	 - Between:
		- Mobile client and mobile e-mail enabling server
		- Mobile enablers and mobile e-mail enabling server
   Deployment B is characterized by: =

      * In E-mail Service Provider domain: =

	 - Mobile e-mail server (backend e.g. IMAP server)
	 - Connected (e.g. via IMAP) through a "connector"
	 - to a mobile e-mail enabling server
	    - Connected:
      * In Operator(s) domain:
		- Via mobile e-mail protocol to a mobile e-mail client
		- Via other protocols to mobile enablers that support =

		functions like:
			  - Outband notifications
			  - Provisioning
                          - ...
         Firewalls may exist:
	 - 1) Between connectors and mobile e-mail enabling server
	 - 2) Between:
	        - Mobile client and mobile e-mail enabling server
		- Mobile enablers and mobile e-mail enabling server
   Deployment C.1 is characterized by: =

      * In E-mail Service Provider domain: =

	 - Mobile e-mail server (backend e.g. IMAP server)
	 - Connected (e.g. via IMAP) through a "connector"
 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

 =

Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 7] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

 =

      * In Operator(s) domain:
	 - to a mobile e-mail enabling server
	    - Connected:
		- Via mobile e-mail protocol to a mobile e-mail client
		- Via other protocols to mobile enablers that support =

		functions like:
			  - Outband notifications
			  - Provisioning
                          - ...
         Firewalls may exist:
	 - 1) Between connectors and mobile e-mail enabling server
	 - 2) Between:
	        - Mobile client and mobile e-mail enabling server
		- Mobile enablers and mobile e-mail enabling server
   Deployment C.2 is characterized by: =

      * In E-mail Service Provider domain: =

	 - Mobile e-mail server (backend e.g. IMAP server)
	 - Connected (e.g. via IMAP) through a "connector"
      * In third party service provider:
	 - to a mobile e-mail enabling server
	    - Connected:
      * In Operator(s) domain:
		- Via mobile e-mail protocol to a mobile e-mail client
		- Via other protocols to mobile enablers that support
                functions like:
			  - Outband notifications
			  - Provisioning
                          - ...
         Firewalls may exist:
	 - 1) Between connectors and mobile e-mail enabling server
	 - 2) Between:
	        - Mobile client and mobile e-mail enabling server
		- Mobile enablers and mobile e-mail enabling server =

 =

 =

 4. Scope, objectives of Lemonade Mobile Profile: Recommendations
 =

   Will lemonade specify the mobile e-mail protocol or  specify a set of =

   optimizations "inspired" from mobile e-mail but not necessarily =

   addressing all these issues?

   We recommend:
      - That Lemonade aims at addressing all the problems identified that =

      are within the scope of IETF.
      - That Lemonade MUST design its protocol to allow use of its messages=

      and principles with other transport mechanisms (e.g. HTTP, Outband =

      notification mechanisms, ...) when needed to address some of the mobi=
le
      e-mail challenges identified in this document.
  =

Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 8] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =



   Accordingly, Lemonade must not make assumptions on the underlying networ=
k =

   transport or design choices that would prevent addressing all these issu=
es
   even if their resolution is outside the scope of IETF (network neutralit=
y).
   This implies in particular allowing: compression and encryption at the =

   application level and possibility to bind Lemonade to HTTP/HTTPS.
    =

    =

Security Considerations =

    =

   The Mobile e-mail protocols must address / support security issues raise=
d =

   by:
	- The different deployment models identified in section 3. In =

	particular:
		- End-to-end security with no message in the clear when the
		mobile e-mail enabling server is outside the e-mail service
		provider domain.
		- No storage of e-mail (in the clear or not) outside the =

		control and domain of the e-mail service provider
		- Secure notifications when relevant information is carried =

		the notifications.
	- Support for the restrictions introduced by the presence of =

	firewalls with constraints typically met in such firewall deployments
	(e.g. corporate guidelines that open only HTTP or HTTPS ports).
	- On bandwidth limited mobile networks where users pay per data =

	volumes	and/or notifications, spam may become an important issue. It =

	can be mitigated with appropriate filters and server-side spam =

	prevention tools.
    =

Authors Addresses =

   Stephane H. Maes =

   Oracle Corporation =

   500 Oracle Parkway =

   M/S 4op634 =

   Redwood Shores, CA 94065 =

   USA =

   Phone: +1-650-607-6296 =

   Email: stephane.maes@oracle.com =

    =

Intellectual Property Statement =

    =

   The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any =

   intellectual property or other rights that might be claimed to =

   pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in =

   this document or the extent to which any license under such rights =

   might or might not be available; neither does it represent that it =

   has made any effort to identify any such rights.  Information on the =

   IETF's procedures with respect to rights in standards-track and =

   standards-related documentation can be found in BCP-11.  Copies of =

   claims of rights made available for publication and any assurances of =

 =

Maes                    Expires - April 2005                  [Page 9] =

=0C
                             <Mobile e-mail>              October 2004 =

 =

 =

   licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to =

   obtain a general license or permission for the use of such =

   proprietary rights by implementors or users of this specification can =

   be obtained from the IETF Secretariat. =

   The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any =

   copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary =

   rights which may cover technology that may be required to practice =

   this standard.  Please address the information to the IETF Executive =

   Director. =

    =

Acknowledgement =

    =

   Funding for the RFC Editor function is currently provided by the =

   Internet Society. =

    =

Full Copyright Statement =

    =

   Copyright (C) The Internet Society 2004. This document is subject to =

   the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except =

   as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. =

    =

   This document and the information contained herein are provided on an =

   "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS =

   OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY AND THE INTERNET =

   ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, =

   INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE =

   INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED =

   WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. =

        =

   This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to =

   others, and derivative works that comment on or otherwise explain it =

   or assist in its implementation may be prepared, copied, published =

   and distributed, in whole or in part, without restriction of any =

   kind, provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are =

   included on all such copies and derivative works.  However, this =

   document itself may not be modified in any way, such as by removing =

   the copyright notice or references to the Internet Society or other =

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   developing Internet standards in which case the procedures for =

   copyrights defined in the Internet Standards process must be =

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        =

   The limited permissions granted above are perpetual and will not be =

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    =




Maes                    Expires - April 2005                   [Page 10]

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From: Alexey Melnikov <Alexey.Melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: [lemonade] IMAPEXT WG meeting in Washington
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I just want to remind Lemonade folks that they should attend IMAPEXT, as 
there is a lot of overlap between the two WGs. LISTEXT extension might 
be of particular interest.

There is an ongoing discussion about moving IMAPEXT to Monday, so watch 
for agenda changes.

Alexey


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 25 08:43:47 2004
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Sorry folks, but due to a very intermittent disk in my laptop I haven't 
been able to get any productive work done for the last week. This 
includes getting the updates to the Channel draft completed.

Since I'm going to miss the submission deadline I will put the updated 
version on my web server and send an announcement here to the list. It 
should be done in the next day or two, assuming no more hardware 
problems on my end.

--lyndon

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Folks, 

A two week last call period is open until midnight EDT Nov 7th on: 

   SMTP Submission Service Extension for Future Delivery
   <draft-ietf-lemonade-futuredelivery-00.txt> 

Please forward any comments on this document to the WG mailing list. 

Cheers, 
Glenn. 

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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Folks,</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A two week last call =
period is open until midnight EDT Nov 7th on:</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=A0=A0 SMTP =
Submission Service Extension for Future Delivery</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;draft-ietf-lemonade-futuredelivery-00.txt&gt;</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please forward any =
comments on this document to the WG mailing list.</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn.</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT>=20
</P>

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 25 10:18:52 2004
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Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 16:15:59 +0200
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] WG last call on future delivery
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Glenn Parsons writes:
> Folks,
>
> A two week last call period is open until midnight EDT Nov 7th on:
>
>    SMTP Submission Service Extension for Future Delivery
>    <draft-ietf-lemonade-futuredelivery-00.txt>
>
> Please forward any comments on this document to the WG mailing list.

Three points, all fairly minor.

1. Why 1*9DIGIT? Doesn't that mean that the delay is limited to 
999999999 seconds? What makes this limit better than, say, 99999999 or 
9999999999?

I'd prefer not to have that limit unless there is a particular reason 
for it, so I suggest changing to 1*DIGIT.

2. In section 3, first paragraph, the document says that =ABSMTP clients 
will not use Future Delivery on this MSA=BB. I suggest using SHOULD NOT 
or MUST NOT. Either is fine with me.

3. The document apparently intends that only authenticated clients can 
use future delivery. It doesn't say so. What it says is that the AUTH 
command must succeed. But RFC2245 lists one way to have AUTH succeed 
without really being authenticated, and (in theory) there may be other 
ways in the future.

One way to reword would be to talk about SASL authorization IDs. =ABThe 
server SHOULD accept MAIL...AFTER only when the SMTP client has been 
tied to a known SASL authorization ID.=BB

But I wonder - why is this necessary? The document does not offer much 
of a rationale for this requirement. The mentioned security concern 
could be handled using a quota for anonymous/unauthenticated users.

Arnt

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 25 10:34:51 2004
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I have few comments on draft-ietf-lemonade-futuredelivery-00.txt, mostly 
editorial:

1). In section 3:

 >   An MSA that supports Future Delivery also supports the Authorization

Authentication (here and in few places below, however "authorization 
parameter" below is fine)

 >   service extension [4].  An MSA that advertises support for Future
 >   Delivery also advertises support for Authorization in the same EHLO
 >   reply.  An MSA that advertises support for Future Delivery without
 >   advertising support for Authorization is error, and SMTP clients will
 >   not use Future Delivery on this MSA.

This document has a reference to RFC 2119, however it doesn't officially 
state that it uses it and MUST/SHOULD language is not used in section 3 
of the document.

[...]

 >   The SMTP client then issues a MAIL command containing a future-
 >   delivery-interval parameter and an authorization parameter.

Putting a reference to SMTP AUTH here would be helpful, IMHO.

This sentence is also problematic, because authorization parameter is 
not required by SMTP AUTH ("MAY be specified"), while the 
future-delivery-interval parameter is required ("MUST be specified"). 
This also affects section 3.2.1, bullet # 3.

 >  If the
 >   authorization parameter is invalid, the MSA rejects the MAIL command.
 >   If the value of the future-delivery-interval parameter is greater
 >   that the MSA's advertised max-future-delivery-interval, or is
 >   otherwise invalid, the MSA rejects the MAIL command.  If both
 >   parameters are valid, and there are no other errors on the MAIL
 >   command, the MSA accepts that command.

2). I would suggest merging section 3.2 with section 3.1, because SMTP 
AUTH is required.

3). In section 3.2.2

 >   3) When an MSA receives a MAIL command containing a future-delivery-
 >      interval parameter, and the MSA has not yet authenticated the
 >      client via the AUTH command mechanism described in [4], then the
 >      MSA MUST reject the MAIL command for security reasons as described
 >      in [5].

The server should also be able to reply with "530" (Authentication 
required) as described in [4].

4). Section 6. ("References"): this section should be split into 
Normative and Informative references.

Alexey


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Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

> Glenn Parsons writes:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> A two week last call period is open until midnight EDT Nov 7th on:
>>
>>    SMTP Submission Service Extension for Future Delivery
>>    <draft-ietf-lemonade-futuredelivery-00.txt>
>>
>> Please forward any comments on this document to the WG mailing list.
>
> Three points, all fairly minor.
>
> 1. Why 1*9DIGIT? Doesn't that mean that the delay is limited to 
> 999999999 seconds? What makes this limit better than, say, 99999999 or 
> 9999999999?
>
> I'd prefer not to have that limit unless there is a particular reason 
> for it, so I suggest changing to 1*DIGIT.

If this change is done, the document should say that any compliant 
server should use at least 32 bit unsigned integers to store such values.

Alexey


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--On 2004-10-25 4:15 PM +0200 Arnt Gulbrandsen 
<arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:

> 1. Why 1*9DIGIT? Doesn't that mean that the delay is limited to
> 999999999 seconds? What makes this limit better than, say, 99999999
> or 9999999999?

Because 1*DIGIT is an unbounded value. What's a reasonable upper limit 
a server should accept? And therefore, what can a client expect a 
server to support?

999,999,999 seconds is 31.7 years. Live with it :-)

--lyndon

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Alexey Melnikov writes:
> If this change is done, the document should say that any compliant 
> server should use at least 32 bit unsigned integers to store such 
> values.

And if it's not done, the text about 0 can go away, because 999999999 
has exactly the same meaning.

Arnt

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 25 11:12:48 2004
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Lyndon Nerenberg writes:
> --On 2004-10-25 4:15 PM +0200 Arnt Gulbrandsen 
> <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:
>
>> 1. Why 1*9DIGIT? Doesn't that mean that the delay is limited to
>> 999999999 seconds? What makes this limit better than, say, 99999999
>> or 9999999999?
>
> Because 1*DIGIT is an unbounded value. What's a reasonable upper limit 
> a server should accept? And therefore, what can a client expect a 
> server to support?

The server announces its upper limit. The document does not specify a 
minimum value for that upper limit, so so the client cannot currently 
expect the server to support anything. (Perhaps it should?)

> 999,999,999 seconds is 31.7 years. Live with it :-)

What makes 31.7 years better as a limit than 317 years or 3.17 years?

Alle of them are practically unbounded, so I'll be writing conditions 
and error handling that'll never be used, and test cases for ditto. Not 
very sensible.

Hm. I do see one possible rationale - the length of the mail command. 
(Page 4, first line.)

Arnt

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On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>> 1. Why 1*9DIGIT? Doesn't that mean that the delay is limited to 999999999 
>> seconds? What makes this limit better than, say, 99999999 or 9999999999?
>> I'd prefer not to have that limit unless there is a particular reason for 
>> it, so I suggest changing to 1*DIGIT.
> If this change is done, the document should say that any compliant server 
> should use at least 32 bit unsigned integers to store such values.

Should it be "at least" or simply be specified as such.  Off the top of my 
head, 2^32 seconds is about 136 years.  I don't see much call for a 
136-year email delay; and it would make implementations easier if they can 
assume that they won't ever encounter more then 2^32 seconds.

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: IMAP4 extension for quick reconnect
	Author(s)	: A. Melnikov, C. Wilson
	Filename	: draft-ietf-lemonade-reconnect-02.txt
	Pages		: 0
	Date		: 2004-10-25
	
Mobile IMAP clients are notoriously slow to connect to IMAP mail
   servers because of the large volume of data exchanged in order to
   ensure that the client is synchronized with the server.  This
   problem is amplified when the mobile terminal is moving which
   exasperates the connection problems they tend to have: low
   bandwidth allocations, out-of-range disconnects, and poor
   connection quality to the cell/WLAN network.

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 25 20:12:51 2004
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> The server announces its upper limit.

Okay, I was asleep the first time I read the draft.

> Hm. I do see one possible rationale - the length of the mail command.
> (Page 4, first line.)

And that was the reason. 1*9 is really there as a stupidity filter.

--lyndon

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 25 21:06:45 2004
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From: "Vaudreuil, Greg M (Greg)" <gregv@lucent.com>
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Subject: [lemonade] MMS Mapping Document Review
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I reviewed your latest version -01 and have the following questions/comments.

Page 4: claims all functions are supported except reverse charging.  I don't see any mention of a forward-lock DRM indication.  This needs to be added to this list of exclusions.

Page 9:  Precedence is not a standardized header. Maybe leaving no mapping and retain the MMS header field as you suggest on page 12.  I suggest anything but the precedence header.

Page 10: Formatting oops on Note 2.  Check for non-ascii characters.

Page 13: Earliest deliver time.  The first MTA after the MMS Relay may be considered the submission server for these purposes and could support the deliver-after extension.  If so required, the correct mapping of X-Mms-Delivery-Time: should be the deliver-after parameter.  Might add words suggesting that if deliver-after is not supported on next hop, the server needs to retain the message until the delivery-time.

Page 14: Where is X-anonymous defined?  I support the concept, but it needs to be documented in a separate informational RFC.  Maybe it is better in this document to list it as another unsupported mapping.

Looks good otherwise.

Greg V.


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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Oct 25 23:16:08 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] WG last call on Goals
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:11:57 -0700
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Please find attached comments to draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt.

Sorry if long and sometimes repetitive... I think some aspect still warrant=
 more discussions.

Thanks

Stephane

------------

1.	Introduction - Motivation

The draft draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt is in WG last call status. The p=
resent document provides detailed comments.
2.	Mobile e-mail aspects

Based on lessons learned with mobile e-mail we believe that some additional=
 discussion on mobile e-mail should be added. These considerations were acc=
umulated while working on actual mobile e-mail deployments, analyzing the g=
amut of existing solutions from different vendors, developing, implementing=
 and deploying P-IMAP (draft-smaes-lemonade-p-imap-05.txt) as well as parti=
cipating to the OMA (Open Mobile Alliance) Mobile E-mail activity (http://m=
ember.openmobilealliance.org/ftp/Public_documents/REL/WP/Summary_WISPR_stat=
usPage4.html).

To that effect, I would like to suggest considering adding material from th=
e following:
-	Discussion of mobile issues and use cases were presented in the Dallas/Ri=
chardson intermediary Lemonade FTF meeting (59.5): http://flyingfox.snowsho=
re.com/i-d/lemonade/slides59-5/PIMAP-Draft_Overview_Draft.ppt (slide 2 to 5=
). =

-	More details on the challenges and mobile specific issues that are presen=
ted in draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt. =


See also draft-smaes-lemonade-s2c-notification-reqs-00.txt.

We believe that these use cases, requirements and issues should be discusse=
d in more details in the Lemonade goals draft.
3.	Detailed comments
This section provides more specific comments section by section.
3.1	Comments to the abstract section

>> In particular, by clients on hosts not only operating in environments =

>> with high latency/bandwidth-limited unreliable links but also =

>> constrained to limited resources. <<

While this is correct, I think that we should explicitly recognize the othe=
r challenges met in mobile environment (see for example draft-smaes-lemonad=
e-mobile-email-01.txt). So I would like to state:

=3D>>... but also constrained to limited resources or limitations imposed b=
y mobile networks properties and deployment models.<<=3D

>> The enhanced mail must continue to support the existing service as =

>> before. <<

This is an unclear statement. I would challenge that in some cases there is=
 no possible (open standard) service in some cases / environment. It should=
 be clarified to acknowledge that fact and to explain that the statement is=
 probably more a statement in terms of interworking between new use and exi=
sting mail services etc...

>> The primary motivation for this effort is -- by making Internet mail
   protocols richer and more adaptable to varied media and environments <<

It is not clear that extending the protocol is always suitable (e.g. mobile=
). Instead we should rather state:

=3D>> The primary motivation for this effort is to make Internet mail proto=
cols more adaptable and optimizable to varied media and environments <<=3D

>> ... to allow their use by handheld devices to wirelessly access
   Internet mail without intermediation.<<

I thought that Lemonade had a much broader scope than mobile only. Should t=
he text be changed accordingly to expand the scope

I recommend changing wireless to mobile.

I strongly disagree with the limitation implied by "without intermediation"=
. This is not something that has been justified (yet t at least in my mind)=
 and it is in contradiction with most common current models (see draft-smae=
s-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt). It could also be construed as contradicted=
 by the voice mail solution later described. These two words should be remo=
ved from the text. =


The goal document is a pre-requirement document. It can't make such decisio=
ns in advance. I realize that we may have a problem in the sense that we ar=
e designing solution before completing appropriately use cases, requirement=
s etc... But in any case this restriction is too preliminary.
3.1.1	Last paragraph of Abstract

This section seems outdated, at least based on the discussions and work tha=
t I have seen taking place at Lemonade in the last year. The size of the pa=
ragraph seems to imply a much bigger role that what it has. I suggest updat=
ing and reducing and adding a section on mobile e-mail; noting that mobile =
messaging is not mobile e-mail.

Also if voice mail and other cases are to be supported, they should be ment=
ioned in the Abstract... They are not.

3.2	Comments on introduction

The introduction is missing a discussion on mobile e-mail:
-	Existing demand (enterprises, operators and even consumers), numerous tec=
hnical solutions, growing adoption =

-	Challenges
-	Need to offer an open standard solution that based on enhanced internet m=
ail or at least appropriately interworking with it.

While messaging clearly includes e-mail; when referring to mobile messaging=
 and when reading the draft so far, messaging rather refers to alternate me=
ssaging methods like SMS, MMS etc instead of e-mail. So wording to clarify =
this should be added. But clearly, we would like to see also the text discu=
ssing the need to provide open standard ways to address the challenges of m=
obile e-mail (see draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt) and associated =
use cases (see http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/lemonade/slides59-5/PIMAP=
-Draft_Overview_Draft.ppt (slide 2 to 5)).

Similarly and to avoid confusion, instant messaging should be positioned wi=
th respect to the Lemonade goals.
3.2.1	Section on "This document [...] in other contexts"

There may be some confusions and lack of clarities with the concept of WUI,=
 Mobile messaging Multi-modal and Mobile e-mail.

- WUI is a client on a mobile / wireless device

- WUI may differ for mobile messaging (SMS, MMS, IM, ...), and mobile e-mai=
l

- Different agents (WUI, TUI, ...) may be involved in multi-modal messaging=
. It is not a subset of WUI; but WUI may be used to provide multi-modal mes=
saging...

- The multimodal messaging should refer to the multimodal and multi-device =
work at OMA that explicitly address and explains how agents are combined to=
 provide that desired multimodal effect and more. After all, this work bett=
er be consistent with the OMA specifications on this... It may also be good=
 to refer to the W3C MMI work if multimodal messaging was t be treated as a=
 separately authored multimodal application.

- The notion of mobile e-mail client / functionality should be explicitly l=
isted, where mobile e-mail is defined in draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-=
01.txt as: access to e-mail while mobile.

3.2.2	Comments on Last bullet list

Please add:

- Issues related to mobile e-mail


[And a section should be added. This could be based on the document discuss=
ed earlier (See section 2. Mobile e-mail aspects)

3.3	Comments to section 3
3.3.1	Comments to section 3.2.2

We believe that it is important to recognize and document the notions of in=
band versus outband notifications.

We also believe that it is important to recognize that while the internet m=
ail in general has not identified the need for notifications. However, mobi=
le e-mail as discussed in draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt) with as=
sociated use cases (see http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/lemonade/slides5=
9-5/PIMAP-Draft_Overview_Draft.ppt (slide 2 to 5)) and in draft-smaes-lemon=
ade-s2c-notification-reqs-00.txt. Therefore the draft should identify to re=
concile this difference between "internet mail" and the need of mobile e-ma=
il. Addressing this is a goal of Lemonade...

3.4	Comments to section 4

A problem that I think plague some of the discussion that we are having for=
 example around mobile e-mail is at the level of what it means to:
- Define a profile of internet mail
- Extend internet mail to other environments.

Among the confusion is the difference and confusion already mentioned in th=
ese comments between:
- i) Using internet mail as is and adding capabilities
and
- ii) Extending internet mail and way it is used to allow appropriate exten=
sion of capabilities and optimize use or support use cases in the new envir=
onment.

We recommend that the work and goals of Lemonade include ii) and not just i=
). We believe that for example supporting server to client notifications is=
 needed in such a context and may require accepting ii). The same holds for=
 deployment use cases.

3.4.1	Comments to section 4.2.2

This is a repeat of the comments made in section 4.1.1. (Comments to "This =
document [...] in other contexts"):
- The Multi-modal client should refer and state a goal to be reconciled wit=
h the OMA multimodal and multi-device specifications and the W3C MMI WG spe=
cifications (both sets are currently consistent among each others).

3.4.2	Comments to section 4.2.3

As already discuss in section 4.1.1. (Comments to "This document [...] in o=
ther contexts"), we should account for different clients for the different =
functions that it must perform. It is confusing and frankly not required no=
r realistic considering the current state of mobile clients to expect a uni=
fied client.

We also recommend to change the name from wireless to mobile [This is a gen=
eral comment across the whole draft]. 	=


We would like to see a discussion of a mobile e-mail functionality that is =
currently missing from the draft and from the notion of WUI.

3.4.3	Additional comments on WUI / Multimodal figure

Similarly, the figure that depicts the multimodal clients is not consistent=
 with the OMA multimodal and multi-device enabler architecture document or =
the W3C architecture drafts: it misses the functionality of interaction / m=
ultimodal synchronization manager consistently identified by both activitie=
s. We should re-think what we write it this section, especially as no work =
seems to have really completed on this at Lemonade. What would be affected?=


In addition, we believe that the figure may not be suitable in general for =
mobile e-mail where the "logical" picture is closer to what is discussed in=
 draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt (see also the presentation given =
in Vancouver intermediate Lemonade FTF meeting (60.5): http://www1.ietf.org=
/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/pptdErKweWZk5.ppt).  Accordingly, IETF s=
tandard protocol may be actually the mobile e-mail protocol as is RFC 822/M=
IME for retrieval and submission. Notifications are also missing as are not=
ification.

An option to progress is to keep section 4.2.3 as is (taking account the co=
mments of first 3.4.2 Comments to section 4.2.3 and first paragraph above) =
and adding a section on mobile e-mail client.

3.5	Comments to section 5

I am rather positive and comfortable with the principle enumerated in secti=
on 5.  However, I would like to see mobile e-mail added to the list of the =
topic covered by the principle.

3.5.1	Comment to section 5.1.1 and 5.1.2

[Analysis rather comment - The editor may decide if this should be further =
explained in the draft of draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-0x.txt] It should be ho=
wever that when in section 5.1.2 we state that we will not break existing p=
rotocols, this does not imply that only new functionalities are added to ex=
isting protocols. New protocols and interworking mechanisms are also within=
 scope if they can't be satisfied by existing protocols.

3.5.2	Comment to section 5.3

[Analysis rather comment - The editor may decide if this should be further =
explained in the draft of draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-0x.txt]

I agree with the principle. However, again it must be clear that this is no=
t preventing new infrastructure when new functionality is needed. =


It should also be clear that  having all extensions backward compatible may=
 be achieved with a protocol that supports IMAP and a different protocol pr=
ovided that IMAP client can interface with the system and new devices can e=
xploit the additional features.

Intermediaries as discussed in draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt sho=
uld be covered and compatible with this principle. They provide a way to su=
pport the backward compatibility and progressive support of features. [End =
of analysis]

>>Messages created in an enhanced messaging context MUST NOT require =

>>changes to existing mail clients.<<

I agree with this and it should also apply to mobile e-mail. But it is impo=
rtant to understand what it means. In the case of mobile e-mail, email gene=
rate outside the mobile context MUST be received / used by mobile e-mail cl=
ient (by design) and email generated by mobile clients MUST be received / u=
sed by e-mail clients without any changes. =


The statement should be extended to email servers to state that email serve=
r MUST be able to send, receive, handle emails to and from mobile e-mail cl=
ient without changes of specifications. That does not mean however that it =
may not involve intermediaries as discussed in draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-=
email-01.txt.

>> However, there may be a degradation in functionality in certain =

>> circumstances.<<

For mobile e-mail, we believe that this is not an appropriate statement. Mo=
bile e-mail does not call for degradation of functionality but instead for =
full support of the requirements / user cases / user experience expected. T=
his statement should be rephrased so that support across different messagin=
g context may imply degradation in functionality BUT when it come to mobile=
 e-mail, full support of the mobile email functionalities (that differs fro=
m internet mail as it is today).

3.5.3	Additional comment

A section should be added on mobile e-mail requirements inspired from http:=
//flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/lemonade/slides59-5/PIMAP-Draft_Overview_Draf=
t.ppt (slide 2 to 5), draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt and draft-sm=
aes-lemonade-s2c-notification-reqs-00.txt.

3.6	Comments on section 7

The comment requiring extension of WUI to include mobile e-mail applies.

The recommendation to rename WUI to "mobile" UI still holds

In general this should be run against http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/le=
monade/slides59-5/PIMAP-Draft_Overview_Draft.ppt (slide 2 to 5), draft-smae=
s-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt and draft-smaes-lemonade-s2c-notification-re=
qs-00.txt and completed as needed.

A section in the draft should address the need of enterprise.

3.6.1	Comments to section 7.1

Please add the other considerations on transport challenges mentioned in dr=
aft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt section 2.2 (and may be aspect of 2.=
3)(e.g. loss of IP address, loss of sessions, control of exchanged data, .)=

3.6.1.1	Comments to section 7.1.3

Please add the other considerations on Wireless Bandwidth and Network Utili=
zation Considerations mentioned in draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt=
 section 2.2/2.3 (e.g. walled garden, regulation, firewalls,.)

3.6.2	Comment to sections 7.1.4.2 to 7.1.4.4
Please add the other considerations on device limitations mentioned in draf=
t-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt section 2.1 (e.g. closed / controlled =
platform, .).

Note that these sections are not about content display considerations but a=
bout devices capabilities. It would be less confusing if the title of 7.4 w=
as changed to device capabilities.

3.6.3	Comments to section 7.2

The section should be renamed to "mobile e-mail".

It should add all requirements discussed in http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/=
i-d/lemonade/slides59-5/PIMAP-Draft_Overview_Draft.ppt (slide 2 to 5), draf=
t-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt and draft-smaes-lemonade-s2c-notificat=
ion-reqs-00.txt and explicitly identify that it must address the challenges=
 identified in draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt (by providing at le=
ast supporting technologies)

Example of missing discussion items:
- Need for notifications
- Need to support of firewalls and associated sometimes very conservative c=
orporate policies
- Need to support mobile network limitations (e.g. no session, often discon=
nected, no fixed IP, non-internet features / capabilities / limitations)
- Mobile deployment models (http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lemonade/=
current/pptdErKweWZk5.ppt and draft-smaes-lemonade-mobile-email-01.txt).
- ... =


3.7	Comments to section 8

Again, this should include a discussion of mobile e-mail. It should include=
 a section that discuss a mobile e-mail protocol as in http://www1.ietf.org=
/mail-archive/web/lemonade/current/pptdErKweWZk5.ppt and draft-smaes-lemona=
de-mobile-email-01.txt.

3.7.1	Comment to section 8.2

I do not agree with having sentence "Client-to-server notification is not w=
ithin the LEMONADE Charter" in the goals. =


1) We need to discuss and agree on the fact that this would not be a goal. =
It is a goal in my view as discussed earlier
2) It is not clear that it is not within the charter. In other words, the c=
harter may be self contradictory if the required extensions actually requir=
e notification. =

3) Goal and charter are not necessarily the same thing. If it happens that =
Lemonade can not provide client to server notification based on "charter is=
sues" that may not be resolvable, the goal of Lemonade is to provide a prot=
ocol that can be used in conjunction with such notifications that can be sp=
ecified elsewhere. =


The sentence should be removed and we should state that lemonade will analy=
ze the need for client to server notification and will either address them =
or interwork with them.

3.8	Comment to section 8.
3.8.1	Comments on section 8.4

Additional consideration are presented in section 2.2 of draft-smaes-lemona=
de-mobile-email-01.txt (e.g. DRM, Charging, .)

The need and concerns of operators with respect to mobile e-mail should be =
addressed somewhere in the draft. This section solely focus on other mobile=
 messaging.

3.9	Comments to security issues. =


Add the considerations presented in in terms of:
- intermediaries / proxies and end-to-end security
- intermediate storage
- deployment models
- spam

4.	Recommendations

I recommend that these comments be considered and acted upon before the dra=
ft be considered as ready to successfully complete WG last call.


_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)


-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Glenn Parsons
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 3:16 AM
To: 'lemonade@ietf.org'
Subject: [lemonade] WG last call on Goals


Folks, =

A two week last call period is open until midnight EDT Nov 2nd on: =

   Goals for Internet Messaging to Support Diverse Service Environments    =
<draft-ietf-lemonade-goals-04.txt> =

Please forward any comments on this document to the WG mailing list. =

Cheers, =

Glenn.



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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Oct 26 04:09:02 2004
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Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:03:34 +0200
From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lemonade] WG last call on future delivery
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Lyndon Nerenberg writes:
>> Hm. I do see one possible rationale - the length of the mail command.
>> (Page 4, first line.)
>
> And that was the reason. 1*9 is really there as a stupidity filter.

Okay, I'll accept that.

My other two points stand. (And IMO, this one was the smallest of my 
three small points ;)

Arnt

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I do not believe the current set of drafts address directly the primary =
mobile synchronization issues. I believe a full solution must cover:
1) Multi-Folder monitoring
2) Mitigate the N*M algorithm typically used at sync time.
3) Folder events
4) Expunge Events
5) New mail events
6) Smoothed connection loss caused by the carrier
7) Reduce the set of visible messages per folder


Below are the personal drafts that address these issues along with their =
abstracts. A goal of these drafts was to address the problem =
specifically with a minimum of variation from the current IMAP RFCs. =
Clearidle and Checkpoint address the first 6 above. Number 7 is =
addressed by Msgfilter.

Clearidle (See attached)
   The IMAPRev4 specification supports unsolicited responses being sent
   to a client at any time. The IDLE specification defines a way for a=20
   client to sit in an idle connection waiting to receive these=20
   responses. This document clarifies and extends the set of responses=20
   that a client may receive while in the idle state. The desire is to=20
   allow a client to predict exactly what set of unsolicited responses=20
   it can rely on receiving when listening on an idle connection.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wener-lemonade-checkpoint-00.tx=
t
   This document describes an IMAP extension that aids in allowing a=20
   client to maintain mailbox synchronization without performing a deep
   sync after each connection. The goal is to minimize, but not=20
   eliminate, the need for deep synchronizations. The extension defines
   a way for a client to receive and acknowledge state change responses
   from the server.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wener-lemonade-msgfilter-00.txt=

   In a mobile environment it is often desirable to allow a user to
   restrict or constrain the set of messages that will be sent to
   the mobile device. There may be several reasons. The user may=20
   not want to pay for the bandwidth consumed, they may not want to
   to consume memory on the phone or they may just want to restrict
   what they get "bothered" by while in a mobile environment. This
   draft defines a way to allow the user to restrict message sets per
   folder.


Mike

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From lemonade-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Oct 28 02:41:58 2004
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From: "Stephane H. Maes" <stephane.maes@oracle.com>
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [lemonade] Channel draft delayed
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:37:42 -0700
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Same for my drafts due for Lemonade. I will also try to post a pre-release =
for DC.

Stephane

_____
Stephane H. Maes, PhD,
Director of Architecture - Mobile, Oracle Corporation.
Ph: +1-203-300-7786 (mobile/SMS); Fax: +1-650-506-7222; Office UM: +1-650-6=
07-6296.
e-mail: stephane.maes@oracle.com
IM: shmaes (AIM) or stephane_maes@hotmail.com (MSN Messenger)
 =



-----Original Message-----
From: lemonade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:lemonade-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Lyndon Nerenberg
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 5:42 AM
To: lemonade@ietf.org
Subject: [lemonade] Channel draft delayed


Sorry folks, but due to a very intermittent disk in my laptop I haven't =

been able to get any productive work done for the last week. This =

includes getting the updates to the Channel draft completed.

Since I'm going to miss the submission deadline I will put the updated =

version on my web server and send an announcement here to the list. It =

should be done in the next day or two, assuming no more hardware =

problems on my end.

--lyndon

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