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, Xuxiaohu , "dcrouting@ietf.org" CC: "lsvr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf Thread-Index: AdN6/qalrWTMjyrZR1yUr/rOo79ZxwAW0IKAAiVQMgA= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2018 17:29:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE304A7141@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.198] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D6712B2DE8033aceeciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2018 17:29:12 -0000 --_000_D6712B2DE8033aceeciscocom_ 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+0000 Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 12:21:16 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Keyur Patel Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Alvaro Retana , Xuxiaohu , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , "lsvr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <0DB89F21-8E32-46A7-A2B7-B79977948455@arrcus.com> References: <0DB89F21-8E32-46A7-A2B7-B79977948455@arrcus.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 03:21:26 -0000 > Furthermore, we could chose to consider such an interaction as a > matter of local policy (implementation specific). pedantry: s/implementation/configuration/. i.e. op chooses, not vendor. 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, "dcrouting@ietf.org" , "lsvr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Dcrouting] [Lsvr] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf Thread-Index: AQHThEHv+i0Opd4R8Eu6OAvJJu6vT6NiF5+A Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 12:40:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0DB89F21-8E32-46A7-A2B7-B79977948455@arrcus.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.198] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 12:40:57 -0000 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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ok-TeSqApjzF; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 07:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A07D81205D3; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 07:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A4C8E14EF; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 07:07:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1514992045; bh=B7QCj46zTIUr2D6Xz5rQjBEap1wz1GUGD9ABRcoSR88=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Mcn6k+2qMR5BKoc8+P4jo0CHuptWeU8c7ZYIwBFUyNLb719GDSeYz8GjMNcSB9+gD 1xbRXr/5wB/CkYU5ayBP2boW0AhrkCMOXPkRQ0JaReyXF6opqS6wbLrQ3rLI5vjqrY BFBDSv1JW4ygRPStE2sIxfvhiHDeCVfZ+Lj/dhDU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4008B8E12E6; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 07:07:23 -0800 (PST) To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Randy Bush , Keyur Patel Cc: Xuxiaohu , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , "lsvr@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana References: <0DB89F21-8E32-46A7-A2B7-B79977948455@arrcus.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 10:07:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2018 15:07:28 -0000 It seems to me that having two different BGP decision processes available is going to have significant impact on achieving consistency so taht routing actually converges. I suspect it willnot take much to define what choices are stable and effective. Leaving out any comments on how to make this (coexistence) work seems a mistake. Yours, Joel On 1/3/18 7:40 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Agreed. Thanks Randy! > > Plan to refresh the draft this week. > > Acee > > On 1/2/18, 10:21 PM, "Randy Bush" wrote: > >>> Furthermore, we could chose to consider such an interaction as a >>> matter of local policy (implementation specific). >> >> pedantry: s/implementation/configuration/. i.e. op chooses, not vendor. >> >> randy > > _______________________________________________ > Dcrouting mailing list > Dcrouting@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrouting > From nobody Wed Jan 3 09:59:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972AC129C6C; Wed, 3 Jan 2018 09:59:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:02:40 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:02:40 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: rift@ietf.org, lsvr@ietf.org, "dcrouting@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f40304353f6438a2010561fb5471" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Rift] kicking off the charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:02:45 -0000 --f40304353f6438a2010561fb5471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote: Robert: Hi! Happy New Year! Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor extension of existing link state protocols ? That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore. Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t fit = all, the room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there). To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work i= n other WGs (including new proposals) should stop. Quite the contrary, if there is sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 if = there isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well. Note t= hat I asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items that should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) =E2= =80=94 so that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate. The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2=80= =99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there. Als= o, I noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99= ing that list as well. Thanks! Alvaro. --f40304353f6438a2010561fb5471 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On January 5, = 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (rob= ert@raszuk.net) wrote:

=
Robert:

Hi!=C2=A0 Happy New Year!

<= /font>
Do we really need yet one more new routing= protocol vs relatively minor extension of existing link state protocols ?= =C2=A0

That was pretty much the question asked durin= g the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0 Starting from the assumption that o= ne size doesn=E2=80=99t fit all, the room showed interest in working on sol= utions beyond the current work in isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewe= d there).

To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that wor= k in other WGs (including new proposals) should stop.=C2=A0 Quite the contr= ary, if there is sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with= it =E2=80=94 if there isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be= clear as well.=C2=A0 Note that I asked the proponents to constrain the pro= posed charter to work items that should be able to be delivered within a sh= ort timeframe (around a year) =E2=80=94 so that we can reassess the interes= t, and re-charter if appropriate.

The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP= -SPF) proposal, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repea= ting the discussion there.=C2=A0 Also, I noticed you forwarded your message= to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list as well.

Thanks!

Alvaro.
--f40304353f6438a2010561fb5471-- From nobody Thu Jan 4 15:13:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE18126B71; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:13:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1QXHrMx-l9KQ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30F3312420B; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id b141so6301299wme.1; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:13:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=TIMiJJbEceqbsi0eZInm8W7y2HyIhMaKM98cY+BhLcU=; b=kRf5dq60K+tBNbTQawUatyzXWSXgqMrdWoycmTQTL3U3J61B7rRuDCM3/21XPJgCri e/pjMKvyLfnLV9niM6rsj2+4BEiRFX36hpf+8dezh/SX5A1WSud8J1qOMgLGsMiGgej3 2LQdj2TTJCb62hX8D5fj8lRmRnf8RETmKqk2mpzTsv6bj8tDk+P0UR1IAA66sZyVoX8q POOQ57NQpPbFIc9fXNOFCyDWla712N0ADYuv2rOAu9KUGH+QDWrmCnSbpf1D4mKHbeHT jUzp3HxUQ2eTWAP+3NqoBSL37eK32OWNR3YiTncfje2NOnZHZukdZmakAj7QweFzLgs9 LfSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TIMiJJbEceqbsi0eZInm8W7y2HyIhMaKM98cY+BhLcU=; b=l2MUOvEvUV/N6V1W9z4u/qG8IvjQ/jDtSsR4ArcHV5O+o3BKoeCPC66XNmmigPlOly TAO0tjVPWp7phbbmIsZFFu3dKqvipc3a92Fm1HwhaQx/tfxxRLDeF6UuoQQX19gu/bAN jHwe1vCwB/zMN/3KgB+R5IswNLQkV5byNEARygFXx3TfUudm0snj0ZDocBeoDbCpFl5m blOMKMSnk2Bkm4/e3mhOQIyB2oc7yTvB6tlv06RmBjUThtrOvdzJWHiM5UOt62ZD6sQi sAH2tXCX53GSfMBjkVlmAIJiEo33S+vR1+h3muQJo9rvW7bwVSOS6p4taWgBFnZMUuLG TVYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKwipnRxQ4rP1d5hn7w+EEy2gG0FyutAjhNlPxAZKdAxpYdasw6 rrzFKg19uvYwsXDtrB05v8vp1R1QqLG1e6hyDUQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovw7K5lG+jBVjkzMaMIvWgYmFlDsceEPM9YEp8uCLvUFPCqtchb4xsdsQCfk8X8zoaTXwVUVsd7DhWqsF2nv7k= X-Received: by 10.28.232.148 with SMTP id f20mr731933wmi.147.1515107613520; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:13:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.54.217 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:13:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 00:13:32 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: eNsIvzejQXL_7-qh-nHpEo9bl-0 Message-ID: To: Alvaro Retana Cc: rift@ietf.org, lsvr@ietf.org, "dcrouting@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1147c49e19b7380561fb7bfa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Rift] kicking off the charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:13:38 -0000 --001a1147c49e19b7380561fb7bfa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alvaro, Happy New Year !!! > That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore. Well .. in Singapore and during most of list discussions dynamic flooding proposal was not on the table. Now it is. To me this is game changer and any conclusions reached previously IMHO should now be revisited. As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was derived that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In real practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds of L3 nodes which in all flavors of current link state implementations will work just fine as is. For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed. Now dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger. Personally IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other areas ? :) Best, R. On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana wrote: > On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote= : > > Robert: > > Hi! Happy New Year! > > Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor > extension of existing link state protocols ? > > > That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in > Singapore. Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t fi= t all, the > room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in > isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there). > > To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work= in other > WGs (including new proposals) should stop. Quite the contrary, if there = is > sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 i= f there > isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well. Note= that I > asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items that > should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) = =E2=80=94 > so that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate. > > The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2= =80=99m > cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there. A= lso, I > noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80= =99ing that list as > well. > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > --001a1147c49e19b7380561fb7bfa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alvaro,

=
Happy New Year !!!

> That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting = BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0

Well= .. in Singapore and during most of list discussions dynamic flooding propo= sal was not on the table. Now it is.=C2=A0
<= span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">
To me this is game changer and any conclusions reached previously IMHO sho= uld now be revisited.=C2=A0

As far as ou= tcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was derived that we nee= d new protocols - especially only those presented. In real practical cases = a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds of L3 nodes which = in all flavors=C2=A0of current link state implementations will work just fi= ne as is.=C2=A0

For MSDCs use of e= ither eBGP or Open/R is deployed.

Now dyna= mic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger.=C2=A0
=
Personally=C2=A0IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move o= n to other areas ? :)
<= span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">
Best,
R.


<= br>
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retan= a <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote:

Robert:

Hi!= =C2=A0 Happy New Year!

D= o we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor exte= nsion of existing link state protocols ?=C2=A0

That was pretty much t= he question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0 Starting fro= m the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t fit all, the room showed int= erest in working on solutions beyond the current work in isis/ospf (which w= as also quickly reviewed there).

To be clear, the intent of chartering = rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work in other WGs (including new proposals) = should stop.=C2=A0 Quite the contrary, if there is sustained interest in th= is effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 if there isn=E2=80=99t (for= whatever reason), then it will be clear as well.=C2=A0 Note that I asked t= he proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items that should b= e able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) =E2=80=94 s= o that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate.

The a= bove obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2=80=99m c= c=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there.=C2=A0= Also, I noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc= =E2=80=99ing that list as well.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--001a1147c49e19b7380561fb7bfa-- From nobody Thu Jan 4 15:36:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E491127876; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:36:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h5t0_F0rhCvt; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22c.google.com (mail-ot0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91049127863; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id g59so2670093otg.11; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VZyLhPQl9OMvHpsHmLbAogRpZEf6QtwXAYRe3BXYLvI=; b=KMTx4Zhj2V1HzM+z8zkOqPf02JN3ZhyemDTfQF2AokmSJ3D6rtgv0jDcmtd7ND3AQX ccU3IzQnK9kghRmaD+l246/mgzxtsJn2mTmL0wTY1YwkJnRVEYp26DBQLxG8YYILqmQU n07hY1oaZJ2lMTfoUdwKN6ti5jh8aXRvjLuuAgjSiEFY9lK2Zlg7B1s+vRoSUWfDTYsz 4bff/dh8MuIkTgILPPSDckgf6mObmUf8ZcMMJFtf1FOC4hi1GvospSYdwWDjlKiPaGJ7 F03Cb95m0qcCy27ubpB+mCcIDwLiN9OzVMFBPCf9wkREYWKgBOITIkQsVtQYQ7BlqhvI c2WQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VZyLhPQl9OMvHpsHmLbAogRpZEf6QtwXAYRe3BXYLvI=; b=dwzUhTCWW/Ue83n2dwgUVgrx2LoiyeVnmk3oFOoa1x+1oy/XUrjWH43W0bNpMhyFgd GAEUezK2z46FdRJx+kevAtlZAYcR/9fzKwj+h5dbEzW0b9WCJ5R9gFr2SZwQ/jDsA0Za ElfqfrX8mm5WSTcZD3hGhL+b1aBPgWzgszliGZ98MiSe8d5uk5n59n3Mhf1KQnJWpqRT UBS/sszQAE2M7DXbr8hW9h4gPpvlVjeqx1kWKb5MB53UvN4/qXIlVmd/DG6zPnzmKZBv Re2d6ZFc4r9U0dVTyKRdwTJWmWerT/i1/BndyGorAfhSENaZZ1+PWCFATmN2T5YObPDO CtDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdj/2MWtCCWiPkiJy3fTyNMxgPIQB0QkIhB+PCZNSrnMWfLvYxG 99o+jum2cQtT0+k72SEWLoRF5EvIgsbLvUirnQA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosT0rDxF7qpoheOgLy/B7Ib8gYYO0GNOD7UNTe1FNc4SXUUB8ehK74ndfwQ7rfQxcEL2ducUqf5ziBeiuLweIw= X-Received: by 10.157.63.136 with SMTP id r8mr855921otc.187.1515108998974; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:36:38 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:36:38 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "dcrouting@ietf.org" , lsvr@ietf.org, rift@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11c02924ae14570561fbcd63" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Rift] kicking off the charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:36:42 -0000 --001a11c02924ae14570561fbcd63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert: As I said: if there=E2=80=99s no interest in a specific proposal it will th= en be clear from the list discussion and we=E2=80=99ll do the right thing. I really don=E2=80=99t want to make this a beauty contest =E2=80=94 there a= re multiple feasible solutions, some may be better than others. We can probably all argue in favor of our favorite solution/protocol/idea, but that won=E2=80= =99t move any of them forward. IOW, please focus on advancing what you think is worth advancing=E2=80=A6 Thanks! Alvaro. On January 5, 2018 at 7:13:34 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote: Hi Alvaro, Happy New Year !!! > That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore. Well .. in Singapore and during most of list discussions dynamic flooding proposal was not on the table. Now it is. To me this is game changer and any conclusions reached previously IMHO should now be revisited. As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was derived that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In real practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds of L3 nodes which in all flavors of current link state implementations will work just fine as is. For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed. Now dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger. Personally IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other areas ? :) Best, R. On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana wrote: > On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote= : > > Robert: > > Hi! Happy New Year! > > Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor > extension of existing link state protocols ? > > > That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in > Singapore. Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t fi= t all, the > room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in > isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there). > > To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work= in other > WGs (including new proposals) should stop. Quite the contrary, if there = is > sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 i= f there > isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well. Note= that I > asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items that > should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) = =E2=80=94 > so that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate. > > The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2= =80=99m > cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there. A= lso, I > noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80= =99ing that list as > well. > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > --001a11c02924ae14570561fbcd63 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Robert:

As I said: if there=E2=80=99s no interest in a specific prop= osal it will then be clear from the list discussion and we=E2=80=99ll do th= e right thing.
I real= ly don=E2=80=99t want to make this a beauty contest =E2=80=94 there are mul= tiple feasible solutions, some may be better than others.=C2=A0 We can prob= ably all argue in favor of our favorite solution/protocol/idea, but that wo= n=E2=80=99t move any of them forward.=C2=A0 IOW, please focus on advancing = what you think is worth advancing=E2=80=A6

Thanks!

Alvaro.

On January 5, 2018 at 7= :13:34 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszu= k.net) wrote:

Hi Alvaro,

Happy New Year !!!

> That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0
Well .. in Singapore and during most of list discussions dynamic flooding proposal was not on the table. Now it is.=C2=A0
To= me this is game changer and any conclusions reached previously IMHO should now be revisited.=C2=A0
As= far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was derived that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In real practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds of L3 nodes which in all flavors=C2=A0of current link state implementations will work just fine as is.=C2=A0
For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed.
No= w dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger.=C2=A0
Pe= rsonally=C2=A0IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other areas ? :)
Be= st,
R.=


On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote:

Robert:

Hi!=C2=A0 Happy New Year!
Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor extension of existing link state protocols ?=C2=A0

That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0 Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t fit all, the room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there).

To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work in other WGs (including new proposals) should stop.=C2=A0 Quite the contrary, if there is sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 if there isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well.=C2=A0 Note that I asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items that should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) =E2=80=94 so that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate.

The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list= here to avoid repeating the discussion there.=C2=A0 Also, I noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that lis= t as well.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--001a11c02924ae14570561fbcd63-- From nobody Thu Jan 4 15:44:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413991275AB for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:43:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MVU9-PW3KPTi for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x236.google.com (mail-ot0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3774F126C22 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x236.google.com with SMTP id q39so2674510otb.8 for ; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:43:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5uZqkmbAKtcxYzgCp7CqHjUEe+skkAFWcTPAUF8IsrU=; b=QHKjEJ7M1VtODJGMR1vf6iRi9YZFZYfxUt94dFoDDpu6tu7XH78u/GB+L/a69hXFpf ngFjbs8MUaQ+MdgtgNywxFQdByo67BY+KqzTAHbe1QXJ4HK8okGb92IAw4bb50pj4ZDi WKKNGu8ZSFMoM5U1sVa2+aMdjm9rgcMaHEn7fRWfjOYamjcx/xx/r09axevWHUZeg0Fv dx5GF4Ntmi0bm3lN4bFVt+iixIVotZnZQYaGsC5BwEqjSkXYcYdpQ2qPjI3x3yz906ir ca0A3I+HYengs+RASc+k3MUXJfy/Gj1+ilvtcFzdNNImLWFHmerhVj5OH87hiTKREdWt TJDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5uZqkmbAKtcxYzgCp7CqHjUEe+skkAFWcTPAUF8IsrU=; b=rVkbr8yOVcyOMvhyHPqmEWdKv6FtEnGD7Z25cRUpF5WFvDQyFX+mj+DjTZMPzFLKgl Eeds6IK8joTCMvvDGXClHbsNBbmruRjsbZsC8NwysUJs2U9Sj/ahKlKRHb3QT9geiRN8 h8JjYfWPJKsGxf197dfTCbyZT/paXjtY8pMPIpCaDgg1yd32e0/FDVU+ml8803sOM25B cfEA9OdjxZLalKcK6jQsruA9PaUn4deiwYEoAj1OurS8ypET90tYcbpdymwRAXNH/QTo uFAr7Y+XpZHeAvnvmyalNuwbCNeN+1b2Io3UEI2tNZHt9yH5jMJT1IxNB2Qe6M0gHYbr 3QZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytewkLp5Fxx1kJZX6QioDXpQiKqobWkDz9lqSW+WZKorHlVwC3ty RtHjgrLyTkL0ThREDJUymItMTk18QwWg78R/+t18rw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBos1Wc93420yZW2AQpRXu89Eukcj8oc6m26nhLywjWNG5CRrIPNdg8hLN8KcwXn5ItTz6Jh0VXkCi0pptLzj0no= X-Received: by 10.157.4.162 with SMTP id 31mr735044otm.98.1515109428393; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:43:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.60.173 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:43:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Victor Kuarsingh Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 18:43:47 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Alvaro Retana , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , lsvr@ietf.org, rift@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c09c31e468c780561fbe7e7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Rift] kicking off the charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:43:54 -0000 --94eb2c09c31e468c780561fbe7e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi Alvaro, > > > As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was derived > that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In real > practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds of > L3 nodes which in all flavors of current link state implementations will > work just fine as is. We attempted to structure the BoF to help understand a few things. This included audience input on whether there are new/augmented requirements within the DC and if there was agreement if that may drive us to new protocol work. Based on questions to the audience and feedback (show of of hands), it indicated that there was room for new protocol work (Notes/Minutes here - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-100-dcrouting/) As for BGPSPF (LSVR based solution) and RIFT, audience feedback also supported the notion that there are folks willing to work on such protocols= . > > For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed. This may be generally true, and based largely on availability of options and protocols. If new options were available, it's hard to say this would still be the case. > > Now dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger. > > Personally IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other areas ? > :) I am not sure anything is ever finally solved. Continue refinement of designs and deployments are a norm in our industry as things change. We often make due with what we have and drive changes if possible and/or when needed. I would not want this to limit innovation. Recent example of a place where a new protocol is useful would be Babel. Once can argue that we should have solved similar cases with existing protocols, but that did not mean targeting the new uses cases with a new protocol did not make sense. Requirements continue to change, and we know things today we did not know years ago when we originally built OSPF, IS-IS, BGP etc. I think using empirical knowledge from real deployments to focus new work makes a lot of sense to me. There is likely room to continue iteration of existing protocols, and that may be just fine for many use cases. However, that should not limit us from developing new protocols which can solve new and emerging problems. regards, Victor K > > Best, > R. > > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana > wrote: >> >> On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote: >> >> Robert: >> >> Hi! Happy New Year! >> >> Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor >> extension of existing link state protocols ? >> >> >> That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in >> Singapore. Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t f= it all, the >> room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in >> isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there). >> >> To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that wor= k in other >> WGs (including new proposals) should stop. Quite the contrary, if there is >> sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 = if there >> isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well. Not= e that I >> asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items tha= t >> should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) =E2=80=94 so >> that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate. >> >> The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2= =80=99m >> cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there. = Also, I >> noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80= =99ing that list as >> well. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Alvaro. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > --94eb2c09c31e468c780561fbe7e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robert,

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Robert Rasz= uk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote= :
> Hi Alvaro,
>
>
> As far as outcome of the BOF -= I am not sure how the conclusion was derived
> that we need new prot= ocols - especially only those presented. In real
> practical cases a = lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds of
> L3 nodes = which in all flavors of current link state implementations will
> wor= k just fine as is.

We attempted to structure the BoF to help unders= tand a few things.=C2=A0 This included audience input on whether there are = new/augmented requirements within the DC and if there was agreement if that= may drive us to new protocol work.=C2=A0 Based on questions to the audienc= e and feedback (show of of hands), it indicated that there was room for new= protocol work (Notes/Minutes here - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-100-= dcrouting/)=C2=A0

As for BGPSPF (LSVR base= d solution) and RIFT, audience feedback also supported the notion that ther= e are folks willing to work on such protocols.

>
> For MSDC= s use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed.

This m= ay be generally true, and based largely on availability of options and prot= ocols.=C2=A0 If new options were available, it's hard to say this would= still be the case.

>
> Now dynamic flooding can ext= end link state to scale much larger.
>
> Personally IMHO this c= ase is solved. Maybe time to move on to other areas ?
> :)
=
I am not sure anything is ever finally solved. Continue refi= nement of designs and deployments are a norm in our industry as things chan= ge.=C2=A0 We often make due with what we have and drive changes if possible= and/or when needed. I would not want this to limit innovation.=C2=A0 Recen= t example of a place where a new protocol is useful would be Babel.=C2=A0 O= nce can argue that we should have solved similar cases with existing protoc= ols, but that did not mean targeting the new uses cases with a new protocol= did not make sense.=C2=A0

Requirements continue t= o change, and we know things today we did not know years ago when we origin= ally built OSPF, IS-IS, BGP etc.=C2=A0 I think using empirical knowledge fr= om real deployments to focus new work makes a lot of sense to me.=C2=A0 The= re is likely room to continue iteration of existing protocols, and that may= be just fine for many use cases.=C2=A0 However, that should not limit us f= rom developing new protocols which can solve new and emerging problems.=C2= =A0

regards,

Victor K

>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
>
> On= Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>> On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote:
>>
>>= Robert:
>>
>> Hi!=C2=A0 Happy New Year!
>>
&= gt;> Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively m= inor
>> extension of existing link state protocols ?
>>>>
>> That was pretty much the question asked during the d= crouting BOF in
>> Singapore.=C2=A0 Starting from the assumption t= hat one size doesn=E2=80=99t fit all, the
>> room showed interest = in working on solutions beyond the current work in
>> isis/ospf (w= hich was also quickly reviewed there).
>>
>> To be clear,= the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work in other
&= gt;> WGs (including new proposals) should stop.=C2=A0 Quite the contrary= , if there is
>> sustained interest in this effort, then we will g= o on with it =E2=80=94 if there
>> isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever rea= son), then it will be clear as well.=C2=A0 Note that I
>> asked th= e proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items that
>&g= t; should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) = =E2=80=94 so
>> that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter = if appropriate.
>>
>> The above obviously applies to the = lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2=80=99m
>> cc=E2=80=99ing that= list here to avoid repeating the discussion there.=C2=A0 Also, I
>&g= t; noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80= =99ing that list as
>> well.
>>
>> Thanks!
&g= t;>
>> Alvaro.
>
>
>
> ________________= _______________________________
> Lsvr mailing list
> Lsvr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr<= /a>
>
--94eb2c09c31e468c780561fbe7e7-- From nobody Thu Jan 4 15:59:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC07B12741D; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:59:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xMPN4eD2aapr; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5EFF126CF9; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id t8so6372585wmc.3; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:59:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=2RxeVdpq1Mpcl9/pHeL7AJFTqSpIw56qWobL6i3Vy0g=; b=Ca8Bs05L5XRi8ijbGHMhPHbVn2wb3OVYiyXa0arK+6mgadO1AKCkCKz7sjVAZL+5/V e+DfTeQLEx6IMSinsVkOWcGTQoSQhShI95JGM1Hqx/V1o/Cmk5yDR012iCE0kIqkjBxC UMpbrVUpQAk5iNxmMOdO89rY77l7AHRWNkWFG0/+7JSyzOOuKQIqpasr4HwShMi7mG71 eBQ2kWO4uAK927X5CCnFDxogrPJUTIOiY5XC3lYqImEMR2AKhXBByvngXJBQrEBGsLrH cKGlLQUOEJyeied1y4AsIoTgWT9OSH2c50q3Bwm8ckfmHJQCzI9oiz1RKL6+kMoyNv79 IYfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2RxeVdpq1Mpcl9/pHeL7AJFTqSpIw56qWobL6i3Vy0g=; b=VLguUpw1kW4uN3Z0UMnLgsJOZhUaH246AkKB/o1qxJV/rbxiYRmjFbCakRcxTSNicu Xa+Z7qwhTE2TOr4COjrwJkvOEFf/xNpGG9zh23wJ8LgOf2j4LJ5Gr+7WucvSKvU50/CU BAyzgl+aDt85rF21lGACFv8PZFlOoqsshHjVKR+jCMGwjiu0Kklq003uaXzhCCJoRGtI pH3QAcfOoo8Tox61Ou4F9gbvKURKXcaM1PLrDtndVCvarlBWP9P3D756oIKVhtisOzsR X63I/7G+G37CF7fslVogXmQ0Nvfc+zCGG8iXg57ccGdwQpcm4UZslkGNIytEruEt1fbu 4GgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKoTBkPxoRp5Qvh/8bSyP1Rg0ZYMr/mgmZuHQQPOaEgQz3W+bJ6 93Q5PHj8AGIqYhYv38AYd3brvQUJWHWSN5xr2FQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBos0Y9zLAMN57BQ42U15PZUA8JkRvw9Sn8tqZ326Jth0e8t9pXLEb71LPNE1F4oUau5vCpouNsuL6Sgbp2n7iYY= X-Received: by 10.28.232.148 with SMTP id f20mr787488wmi.147.1515110364219; Thu, 04 Jan 2018 15:59:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.54.217 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:59:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 00:59:23 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: PGues8NnjwmILipBvOv1dvuuoV4 Message-ID: To: Victor Kuarsingh Cc: Alvaro Retana , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , lsvr@ietf.org, rift@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1147c49e0e0d430561fc1f61" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Rift] kicking off the charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 23:59:28 -0000 --001a1147c49e0e0d430561fc1f61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Victor, =E2=80=8BWriting new draft is easy ... getting via IETF journey =E2=80=8Bwi= th it is a bit harder, but doable. And all of this is free of real cost. However to have multiple vendors putting development resources into multiple proposals, having army of ops folks to learn it, test it across vendors and to be able to deploy it is a huge industry cost. Sure we should and will continue to innovate - this is beyond any doubt. But the crux is to choose areas where we spend community time on. Rightly structured BOF should start with discussing the problems .. what is technically wrong with existing solutions ? - Is it redundant flooding in case of link state ? - Is it lack of auto-config in case of BGP ? Both have protocol solutions in the pipe. See when you allow multiple proposals to progress, each will be supported by given vendor. So likely you will get N solutions moving to IESG. Then what ? We will then have multiple new protocols for inter-domain routing ? And not so long ago folks complained that having two OSPF and ISIS is a bad thing ..... Best, R. On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:43 AM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote= : > Robert, > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi Alvaro, > > > > > > As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was > derived > > that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In real > > practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundred= s > of > > L3 nodes which in all flavors of current link state implementations wil= l > > work just fine as is. > > We attempted to structure the BoF to help understand a few things. This > included audience input on whether there are new/augmented requirements > within the DC and if there was agreement if that may drive us to new > protocol work. Based on questions to the audience and feedback (show of = of > hands), it indicated that there was room for new protocol work > (Notes/Minutes here - https://datatracker.ietf.org/ > doc/minutes-100-dcrouting/) > > As for BGPSPF (LSVR based solution) and RIFT, audience feedback also > supported the notion that there are folks willing to work on such protoco= ls. > > > > > For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed. > > This may be generally true, and based largely on availability of options > and protocols. If new options were available, it's hard to say this woul= d > still be the case. > > > > > Now dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger. > > > > Personally IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other > areas ? > > :) > > I am not sure anything is ever finally solved. Continue refinement of > designs and deployments are a norm in our industry as things change. We > often make due with what we have and drive changes if possible and/or whe= n > needed. I would not want this to limit innovation. Recent example of a > place where a new protocol is useful would be Babel. Once can argue that > we should have solved similar cases with existing protocols, but that did > not mean targeting the new uses cases with a new protocol did not make > sense. > > Requirements continue to change, and we know things today we did not know > years ago when we originally built OSPF, IS-IS, BGP etc. I think using > empirical knowledge from real deployments to focus new work makes a lot o= f > sense to me. There is likely room to continue iteration of existing > protocols, and that may be just fine for many use cases. However, that > should not limit us from developing new protocols which can solve new and > emerging problems. > > regards, > > Victor K > > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana > > wrote: > >> > >> On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) > wrote: > >> > >> Robert: > >> > >> Hi! Happy New Year! > >> > >> Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively mino= r > >> extension of existing link state protocols ? > >> > >> > >> That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in > >> Singapore. Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t= fit all, > the > >> room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work i= n > >> isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there). > >> > >> To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that w= ork in > other > >> WGs (including new proposals) should stop. Quite the contrary, if > there is > >> sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80= =94 if there > >> isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well. N= ote that I > >> asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work items > that > >> should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a year= ) > =E2=80=94 so > >> that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate. > >> > >> The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I= =E2=80=99m > >> cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there.= Also, I > >> noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2= =80=99ing that > list as > >> well. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Alvaro. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Lsvr mailing list > > Lsvr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > > --001a1147c49e0e0d430561fc1f61 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Victor,

=E2=80=8BWr= iting new draft is easy ... getting via IETF journey =E2=80=8Bwith it is a = bit harder, but doable. And all of this is free of real cost.=C2=A0

However to have multiple vend= ors putting development resources into multiple proposals, having army of o= ps folks to learn it, test it across vendors and to be able to deploy it is= a huge industry cost.=C2=A0

Sure we should and will continue to innovate - this is beyond any = doubt. But the crux is to choose areas where we spend community time on.=C2= =A0

Rightly structured= BOF should start with discussing the problems .. what is technically wrong= with existing solutions ?=C2=A0

- Is it redundant flooding in case of link state ?=C2=A0

- Is it lack of auto-config i= n case of BGP ?=C2=A0

= Both have protocol solutions in the pipe.=C2=A0

See when you allow multiple proposals to prog= ress, each will be supported by given vendor. So likely you will get N solu= tions moving to IESG. Then what ? We will then have multiple new protocols = for inter-domain routing ?=C2=A0

And not so long ago folks complained that having two OSPF and IS= IS is a bad thing .....=C2=A0

Best,
R.

<= /div>











On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at = 12:43 AM, Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com> wrote:
Robert,

On Thu, Jan 4, = 2018 at 6:13 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
> Hi Alvaro,
>
>
> As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not su= re how the conclusion was derived
> that we need new protocols - espe= cially only those presented. In real
> practical cases a lot of DC cl= usters are build with at most few hundreds of
> L3 nodes which in all= flavors of current link state implementations will
> work just fine = as is.

We attempted to structure the BoF to help understand = a few things.=C2=A0 This included audience input on whether there are new/a= ugmented requirements within the DC and if there was agreement if that may = drive us to new protocol work.=C2=A0 Based on questions to the audience and= feedback (show of of hands), it indicated that there was room for new prot= ocol work (Notes/Minutes here - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-100-dcrouting/)=C2=A0

As for= BGPSPF (LSVR based solution) and RIFT, audience feedback also supported th= e notion that there are folks willing to work on such protocols.

>
> For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deploy= ed.

This may be generally true, and based l= argely on availability of options and protocols.=C2=A0 If new options were = available, it's hard to say this would still be the case.

>
> Now dynamic flooding can extend link state t= o scale much larger.
>
> Personally IMHO this case is solved. M= aybe time to move on to other areas ?
> :)

I am not sure anything is ever finally solved. Continue refinement of= designs and deployments are a norm in our industry as things change.=C2=A0= We often make due with what we have and drive changes if possible and/or w= hen needed. I would not want this to limit innovation.=C2=A0 Recent example= of a place where a new protocol is useful would be Babel.=C2=A0 Once can a= rgue that we should have solved similar cases with existing protocols, but = that did not mean targeting the new uses cases with a new protocol did not = make sense.=C2=A0

Requirements continue to change,= and we know things today we did not know years ago when we originally buil= t OSPF, IS-IS, BGP etc.=C2=A0 I think using empirical knowledge from real d= eployments to focus new work makes a lot of sense to me.=C2=A0 There is lik= ely room to continue iteration of existing protocols, and that may be just = fine for many use cases.=C2=A0 However, that should not limit us from devel= oping new protocols which can solve new and emerging problems.=C2=A0
<= div>
regards,

Victor K

>
> Best,
> R.
>
>
&g= t;
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com&g= t;
> wrote:
>>
>> On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM,= Robert Raszuk (robe= rt@raszuk.net) wrote:
>>
>> Robert:
>>
&g= t;> Hi!=C2=A0 Happy New Year!
>>
>> Do we really need = yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor
>> extension= of existing link state protocols ?
>>
>>
>> Tha= t was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in
>>= ; Singapore.=C2=A0 Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80= =99t fit all, the
>> room showed interest in working on solutions = beyond the current work in
>> isis/ospf (which was also quickly re= viewed there).
>>
>> To be clear, the intent of charterin= g rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work in other
>> WGs (including n= ew proposals) should stop.=C2=A0 Quite the contrary, if there is
>>= ; sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 i= f there
>> isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be cl= ear as well.=C2=A0 Note that I
>> asked the proponents to constrai= n the proposed charter to work items that
>> should be able to be = delivered within a short timeframe (around a year) =E2=80=94 so
>>= that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if appropriate.
>&= gt;
>> The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) propo= sal, so I=E2=80=99m
>> cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repe= ating the discussion there.=C2=A0 Also, I
>> noticed you forwarded= your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list as
&= gt;> well.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Alvar= o.
>
>
>
> ____________________________= ___________________
> Lsvr mailing list
> Lsvr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr
>

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Halpern" , Randy Bush , "Keyur Patel" CC: Xuxiaohu , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , "lsvr@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Thread-Topic: [Dcrouting] [Lsvr] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf Thread-Index: AQHThKSXqqGIEB8ETEyTAt2rCKVfFqNljuKA Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 17:39:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0DB89F21-8E32-46A7-A2B7-B79977948455@arrcus.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.198] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <04B134D51A26024F95A5B9A7412D6018@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 17:39:29 -0000 SGkgSm9lbCwgDQoNClllcyAtIHRoaXMgaXMgb25lIG9mIHRoZSBhcmVhcyBvZiBjb21wbGV4aXR5 IHdoZW4gaW1wbGVtZW50aW5nIEJHUCBTUEYuIEl0DQppcyB0aGUgcmVhc29uIHdoeSB3ZSBhbGxv Y2F0ZSBhIHNlcGFyYXRlIFNBRkkgZnJvbSBub3JtYWwgQkdQLUxTIHN0YXRlDQpkaXN0cmlidXRp b24uIA0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQpBY2VlIA0KDQpPbiAxLzMvMTgsIDEwOjA3IEFNLCAiRGNyb3V0aW5n IG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBKb2VsIE0uIEhhbHBlcm4iDQo8ZGNyb3V0aW5nLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5v cmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGptaEBqb2VsaGFscGVybi5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+SXQgc2VlbXMg dG8gbWUgdGhhdCBoYXZpbmcgdHdvIGRpZmZlcmVudCBCR1AgZGVjaXNpb24gcHJvY2Vzc2VzDQo+ YXZhaWxhYmxlIGlzIGdvaW5nIHRvIGhhdmUgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgaW1wYWN0IG9uIGFjaGlldmlu ZyBjb25zaXN0ZW5jeQ0KPnNvIHRhaHQgcm91dGluZyBhY3R1YWxseSBjb252ZXJnZXMuIEkgc3Vz cGVjdCBpdCB3aWxsbm90IHRha2UgbXVjaCB0bw0KPmRlZmluZSB3aGF0IGNob2ljZXMgYXJlIHN0 YWJsZSBhbmQgZWZmZWN0aXZlLg0KPg0KPkxlYXZpbmcgb3V0IGFueSBjb21tZW50cyBvbiBob3cg dG8gbWFrZSB0aGlzIChjb2V4aXN0ZW5jZSkgd29yayBzZWVtcyBhDQo+bWlzdGFrZS4NCj4NCj5Z b3VycywNCj5Kb2VsDQo+DQo+T24gMS8zLzE4IDc6NDAgQU0sIEFjZWUgTGluZGVtIChhY2VlKSB3 cm90ZToNCj4+IEFncmVlZC4gVGhhbmtzIFJhbmR5IQ0KPj4gDQo+PiBQbGFuIHRvIHJlZnJlc2gg dGhlIGRyYWZ0IHRoaXMgd2Vlay4NCj4+IA0KPj4gQWNlZQ0KPj4gDQo+PiBPbiAxLzIvMTgsIDEw OjIxIFBNLCAiUmFuZHkgQnVzaCIgPHJhbmR5QHBzZy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gDQo+Pj4+IEZ1 cnRoZXJtb3JlLCB3ZSBjb3VsZCBjaG9zZSB0byBjb25zaWRlciBzdWNoIGFuIGludGVyYWN0aW9u IGFzIGENCj4+Pj4gbWF0dGVyIG9mIGxvY2FsIHBvbGljeSAoaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24gc3BlY2lm aWMpLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gcGVkYW50cnk6IHMvaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24vY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbi8u ICBpLmUuIG9wIGNob29zZXMsIG5vdA0KPj4+dmVuZG9yLg0KPj4+DQo+Pj4gcmFuZHkNCj4+IA0K Pj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+IERj cm91dGluZyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4+IERjcm91dGluZ0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9kY3JvdXRpbmcNCj4+IA0KPg0KPl9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+RGNyb3V0aW5nIG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdA0KPkRjcm91dGluZ0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vZGNyb3V0aW5nDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Jan 5 12:09:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33A612D87A; 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Halpern" , EXT - randy , Keyur Patel CC: Xuxiaohu , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , "lsvr@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana Thread-Topic: [Dcrouting] [Lsvr] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf Thread-Index: AQHThl/S6ak8LQOE3kSxJEshAf0r/6NltHqQ Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 20:09:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0DB89F21-8E32-46A7-A2B7-B79977948455@arrcus.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY1PR0501MB1386; 7:b76Qey4gzX3aF84B8wt6qgllAgc4p5hVf+8OD6X2hRSDn65SsjHhPBBPoOHuSv9/lmLkbWPBSt3jlZDqZbTQnNH05slbEed0WLW9gKvCkwCANNMmjiLiYF74w6ftPw7p1N3RRY2uLwNQFvCOl8wj5VuDQ0UXnq3OrVT9nvfQe82vSMsb8nupi/uzJPfYRzT6yW5A93OkGtqek9W2khX5YqetKRLTaBCNjYdCa/06Zo8q7jH2ZJlGExUCt1vFYisk x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 35f9e0e0-2352-41a5-5b25-08d55478352d x-microsoft-antispam: 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[Lsvr] [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 20:09:35 -0000 VG9kYXkgdGhlcmUgYXJlIHdlbGwgZGVmaW5lZCAocGVyaGFwcyB2ZW5kb3Itc3BlY2lmaWMpIHBy b2NlZHVyZXMgdG8gY2hvb3NlIGlmIGFuIE9TUEYgcm91dGUgb3IgYSBCR1Agcm91dGUgaXMgdXNl ZCBmb3IgYSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIHByZWZpeC4gSSBhc3N1bWUgaWYgd2UgdHJlYXQgQkdQLVNQRiBh cyBhIGFub3RoZXIgcHJvdG9jb2wsIHRoZW4gdGhlIHByb2JsZW1zIGlzIHNvbHZlZCBhbHJlYWR5 Pw0KDQpKZWZmcmV5DQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogQWNl ZSBMaW5kZW0gKGFjZWUpIFttYWlsdG86YWNlZUBjaXNjby5jb21dDQo+IFNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwg SmFudWFyeSA1LCAyMDE4IDEyOjM5IFBNDQo+IFRvOiBKb2VsIE0uIEhhbHBlcm4gPGptaEBqb2Vs aGFscGVybi5jb20+OyBFWFQgLSByYW5keSA8cmFuZHlAcHNnLmNvbT47DQo+IEtleXVyIFBhdGVs IDxrZXl1ckBhcnJjdXMuY29tPg0KPiBDYzogWHV4aWFvaHUgPHh1eGlhb2h1QGh1YXdlaS5jb20+ 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c3VoDQo+IHI2U2NiZmgwVWpCWGVNSy0NCj4gbmRiM3ZvRFRYY1d6b0NJJnI9Zjd3c0xHY2Z6QVdE TlM2WE5UQlp3al9PTEFPc1pacWRyUjJJREF6ZVpxRSYNCj4gbT1NY0lCbGNMaU5SMV92OVhwN2o3 OHF5MTI3aUg3UjJsaWdwSVJxWTkwT0lVJnM9XzE3eEpZbkpCV0ZfUnprNHNjWg0KPiAycF8zSnNK aVk1bWtuSC1vWE9zRFZmbjQmZT0NCj4gDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Fri Jan 5 14:12:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E87112D88D; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:12:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jU2YlULg9Asi; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from bifrost.xalto.net (bifrost.xalto.net [IPv6:2001:41d0:52:100::ce9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F2801200B9; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 14:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bifrost.xalto.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5767CE641C; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 23:12:17 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at xalto.net Received: from bifrost.xalto.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (bifrost.xalto.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gFkR7h6zGW8S; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 23:12:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from webmail.xalto.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bifrost.xalto.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA084CE641A; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 23:12:15 +0100 (CET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 23:12:15 +0100 From: Michael Hallgren To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , EXT - randy , Keyur Patel , Xuxiaohu , dcrouting@ietf.org, lsvr@ietf.org, Alvaro Retana Organization: Xalto.net SARL In-Reply-To: References: <0DB89F21-8E32-46A7-A2B7-B79977948455@arrcus.com> Message-ID: <6f89c9a88b078d37e71b7ec14c633230@webmail.xalto.net> X-Sender: mh@xalto.net User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.0.5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] A comment on draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 22:12:22 -0000 Hi guys, Yes, normally. Now, I guess the question that we have on our table is: what fundamental problem has been identified to trigger the proposed solution? No? Cheers, mh Le 2018-01-05 21:09, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang a écrit : > Today there are well defined (perhaps vendor-specific) procedures to > choose if an OSPF route or a BGP route is used for a particular > prefix. I assume if we treat BGP-SPF as a another protocol, then the > problems is solved already? > > Jeffrey > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com] >> Sent: Friday, January 5, 2018 12:39 PM >> To: Joel M. Halpern ; EXT - randy >> ; >> Keyur Patel >> Cc: Xuxiaohu ; dcrouting@ietf.org; lsvr@ietf.org; >> Alvaro Retana >> Subject: Re: [Dcrouting] [Lsvr] A comment on >> draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf >> >> Hi Joel, >> >> >> >> Yes - this is one of the areas of complexity when implementing BGP >> SPF. It >> >> is the reason why we allocate a separate SAFI from normal BGP-LS state >> >> distribution. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Acee >> >> >> >> On 1/3/18, 10:07 AM, "Dcrouting on behalf of Joel M. Halpern" >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >It seems to me that having two different BGP decision processes >> >> >available is going to have significant impact on achieving consistency >> >> >so taht routing actually converges. I suspect it willnot take much to >> >> >define what choices are stable and effective. >> >> > >> >> >Leaving out any comments on how to make this (coexistence) work seems a >> >> >mistake. >> >> > >> >> >Yours, >> >> >Joel >> >> > >> >> >On 1/3/18 7:40 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >> >> >> Agreed. Thanks Randy! >> >> >> >> >> >> Plan to refresh the draft this week. >> >> >> >> >> >> Acee >> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/2/18, 10:21 PM, "Randy Bush" wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>> Furthermore, we could chose to consider such an interaction as a >> >> >>>> matter of local policy (implementation specific). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> pedantry: s/implementation/configuration/. i.e. op chooses, not >> >> >>>vendor. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> randy >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Dcrouting mailing list >> >> >> Dcrouting@ietf.org >> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https- >> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_dcrouting&d=DwIGaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuh >> r6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- >> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE& >> m=McIBlcLiNR1_v9Xp7j78qy127iH7R2ligpIRqY90OIU&s=_17xJYnJBWF_Rzk4scZ >> 2p_3JsJiY5mknH-oXOsDVfn4&e= >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >_______________________________________________ >> >> >Dcrouting mailing list >> >> >Dcrouting@ietf.org >> >> >https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https- >> 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_dcrouting&d=DwIGaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuh >> r6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- >> ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE& >> m=McIBlcLiNR1_v9Xp7j78qy127iH7R2ligpIRqY90OIU&s=_17xJYnJBWF_Rzk4scZ >> 2p_3JsJiY5mknH-oXOsDVfn4&e= >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Dcrouting mailing list > Dcrouting@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrouting From nobody Sat Jan 6 13:38:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D7312D574; 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Sat, 06 Jan 2018 13:35:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.46.32.136 with HTTP; Sat, 6 Jan 2018 13:35:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 13:35:48 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk , Petr Lapukhov Cc: Alvaro Retana , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , lsvr@ietf.org, rift@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045f8c563e153005622259d6" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 13:38:17 -0800 Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] [Rift] kicking off the charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 21:35:54 -0000 --f403045f8c563e153005622259d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert, I recall presentation by Petr Lapukhov on Open/R and Terragraph where the principle of optimized flooding was used. Of course, algorithms and mechanics of the Open/R in Terragraph may be different from those proposed in the draft An Architecture for Dynamic Flooding on Dense Graphs. I believe it will be very interesting and helpful to look at the proposed dynamic flooding from the point of experience of the Open/R and Terragraph. Regards, Greg On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi Alvaro, > > Happy New Year !!! > > > That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in > Singapore. > > Well .. in Singapore and during most of list discussions dynamic flooding > proposal was not on the table. Now it is. > > To me this is game changer and any conclusions reached previously IMHO > should now be revisited. > > As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was > derived that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In > real practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few > hundreds of L3 nodes which in all flavors of current link state > implementations will work just fine as is. > > For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed. > > Now dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger. > > Personally IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other areas > ? :) > > Best, > R. > > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana > wrote: > >> On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) >> wrote: >> >> Robert: >> >> Hi! Happy New Year! >> >> Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor >> extension of existing link state protocols ? >> >> >> That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in >> Singapore. Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t f= it all, the >> room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in >> isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there). >> >> To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that wor= k in >> other WGs (including new proposals) should stop. Quite the contrary, if >> there is sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it = =E2=80=94 if >> there isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well= . Note >> that I asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work it= ems >> that should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a >> year) =E2=80=94 so that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if = appropriate. >> >> The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2= =80=99m >> cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there. = Also, I >> noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80= =99ing that list as >> well. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Alvaro. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Dcrouting mailing list > Dcrouting@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrouting > > --f403045f8c563e153005622259d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,
I recall presentation by Petr Lapukhov on O= pen/R and Terragraph where the principle of optimized flooding was used. Of= course, algorithms and mechanics of the Open/R in Terragraph may be differ= ent from those proposed in the= =C2=A0draft An Architecture for Dynamic Flooding on Dense Graphs. I believe= it will be very interesting and helpful to look at the proposed dynamic fl= ooding from the point of experience of the Open/R and Terragraph.

<= font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:13 PM,= Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi Alvaro,

Happy New Year !!!

> That was pretty much the que= stion asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0

Well .. in Singapore and during most of l= ist discussions dynamic flooding proposal was not on the table. Now it is.= =C2=A0

To me this is game changer and any conclusions= reached previously IMHO should now be revisited.=C2=A0
<= br>
As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was deri= ved that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In real p= ractical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds of = L3 nodes which in all flavors=C2=A0of current link state implementations wi= ll work just fine as is.=C2=A0

F= or MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed.

=
= Now dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger.=C2=A0

<= /span>
P= ersonally=C2=A0IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other are= as ? :)

Best,
R.



On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <aretana.= ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote:<= /font>

=
Rob= ert:

Hi!=C2=A0 Happy New Year!

Do we really need yet one more new routi= ng protocol vs relatively minor extension of existing link state protocols = ?=C2=A0

That was = pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0= Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t fit all, the ro= om showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in isis/= ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there).

To be clear, the = intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that work in other WGs (incl= uding new proposals) should stop.=C2=A0 Quite the contrary, if there is sus= tained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it =E2=80=94 if the= re isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as well.=C2= =A0 Note that I asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to w= ork items that should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (aro= und a year) =E2=80=94 so that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter = if appropriate.

The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP= -SPF) proposal, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repea= ting the discussion there.=C2=A0 Also, I noticed you forwarded your message= to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list as well.

= Thanks!

Alvaro.


_______________________________________________
Dcrouting mailing list
Dcrouting@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrouting<= /a>


--f403045f8c563e153005622259d6-- From nobody Sat Jan 6 14:29:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC7F3129C6D; Sat, 6 Jan 2018 14:29:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id skGzbyfPe8VH; Sat, 6 Jan 2018 14:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x235.google.com (mail-wr0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83461124BE8; Sat, 6 Jan 2018 14:29:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x235.google.com with SMTP id w107so7336148wrb.9; Sat, 06 Jan 2018 14:29:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=PeqwTLrXTtDdECnVY0MWKsEX7BLM7Y9VVc4WXbhGPcE=; b=KYKmgP8usk1yIkMcPxmUgmhHSSiC0VjKjMcKrVV/A+OlkOdAm6Hl1agzFhcpVUdYpY okSFnK+raGkooQ4dZR+ZTL6bUaWINNQ7y9jEuphyjCRpviEgFUAZ1rUpEw/4lkbqvFec 3NByEQjpvlqgZxJnarGmWSjQ/waCf5uC2Gxrl1gbSQ1gjeOE/RcfMuv2MNqvGlvjqQPL fslwnH27RCT/F0lJFfemJ9TeLL1ZVLLuCR56HSHzJSMLCRXM9IObSdc5As2dMerEjyOF Zi7XAQfkisxO2oR8fNcspTEgvMGjhP85RgHBaVRk5KCw/RlLevVRJERmYPfuoIX/uS5b ayqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PeqwTLrXTtDdECnVY0MWKsEX7BLM7Y9VVc4WXbhGPcE=; b=a9HlnhMq519f+KTMJEPrKsvyiNxxuQBPQqzzjcB5GtKIZtqC252Vd4s+m1vDrQRPT+ sqtUsfGYpOj+j6fNg6r1WCbpjl0iz5vUXKcRH+idrzNlm8dfPXTiYFxZPm+JendgScE3 6uMRhL77OhGhTtw/VKuseLWolbViufOP2dle+uCV+annxrTgRyR+5uybX6yuvAkqqU1J eSoHzNQVeX/xZeBBCK8/bP4Fk2sTKmulZdJ/PsP9UzOxBgxwEAz3+tREv8GEF03ZYDPs JumPKvRaLepxI6QbNv2r38+8d3WDQqjPGssl9KHPjj6CzgciLyCCZ/NOslJf0zV2Fq0q gJVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKzdiuJ1jTMke6ozKDZWKfkgCAz53PM/tx34ct6qmIV0S2nWgV2 P4p55uAxkHxCASH4opJ8NSGBDrKT1xOMIJsJoBU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBoss27ZAQdDWX75/qZ+h15LW8g0HWo9pbsOfKHYEuqMXRSs/TD7rcSpiI/SsxfLFs4D4WtfXVAIvWR9f+Q6B1TQ= X-Received: by 10.223.151.142 with SMTP id s14mr6035506wrb.256.1515277763660; Sat, 06 Jan 2018 14:29:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.54.217 with HTTP; Sat, 6 Jan 2018 14:29:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 23:29:22 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: -DMn0K1U4vKtKrHfa4eYDTYFM_o Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Petr Lapukhov , Alvaro Retana , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , lsvr@ietf.org, rift@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1b5622d6cfd405622318a7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] [Rift] kicking off the charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 22:29:29 -0000 --94eb2c1b5622d6cfd405622318a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg, > I believe it will be very interesting and helpful to look at the proposed dynamic flooding from the point of experience of the Open/R and Terragraph. Honestly I don't think so. The reason is that what Tony Li proposed is an update to classic link state flooding. In fact he is reusing existing DR/DIS in his proposal. Open/R is using message bus for control plane transport which is a completely different paradigm. I am not making any judgement here which is better or worse scale or convergence wise. But at least to me there are apples and oranges and comparing or drawing any conclusion from the behavior of one to the other seems quite bizarre. Personally I like a lot Open/R real pub-sub model. We have been using BGP to propagate p2p messages within p2mp protocol for way too long now. That nonsense has to stop. RTC has been proposed for other reasons and is not the right way to filter BGP information to stretch it as p2p database distribution protocol. It would be very interesting to see proposals for BGP intra-domain transport using message bus. But for robust topology discovery, computing SPF, local protection with no constrains on network topology I guess I will still value link state for a while :). And as already stated for 95% of DCs where cluster size is up to 100 racks I think there is no issue to use currently shipping OSPF or ISIS. When you go beyond that (if you as an enterprise ever do) there is for more optimizations. But from my personal experience building huge flat DC clusters is only applicable to very few customers. Very frankly even issuing RFC describing use of BGP for DC fabric confused number of folks with 5-10 racks and made them to insist that only BGP will work and ISIS or OSPF is a very bad idea. Others for the very same reasons use BGP only deployments in campus networks. Let's be very careful what we consider as good IETF work items and what we define here as standard tracks documents as even if not intended they do have a ricochet effect. Best, Robert. On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 10:35 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Robert, > I recall presentation by Petr Lapukhov on Open/R and Terragraph where the > principle of optimized flooding was used. Of course, algorithms and > mechanics of the Open/R in Terragraph may be different from those propose= d > in the draft An Architecture for Dynamic Flooding on Dense Graphs. I > believe it will be very interesting and helpful to look at the proposed > dynamic flooding from the point of experience of the Open/R and Terragrap= h. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > >> Hi Alvaro, >> >> Happy New Year !!! >> >> > That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in >> Singapore. >> >> Well .. in Singapore and during most of list discussions dynamic floodin= g >> proposal was not on the table. Now it is. >> >> To me this is game changer and any conclusions reached previously IMHO >> should now be revisited. >> >> As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was >> derived that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In >> real practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few >> hundreds of L3 nodes which in all flavors of current link state >> implementations will work just fine as is. >> >> For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deployed. >> >> Now dynamic flooding can extend link state to scale much larger. >> >> Personally IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to other area= s >> ? :) >> >> Best, >> R. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana >> wrote: >> >>> On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) >>> wrote: >>> >>> Robert: >>> >>> Hi! Happy New Year! >>> >>> Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol vs relatively minor >>> extension of existing link state protocols ? >>> >>> >>> That was pretty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in >>> Singapore. Starting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t = fit all, the >>> room showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in >>> isis/ospf (which was also quickly reviewed there). >>> >>> To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mean that wo= rk in >>> other WGs (including new proposals) should stop. Quite the contrary, i= f >>> there is sustained interest in this effort, then we will go on with it = =E2=80=94 if >>> there isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then it will be clear as wel= l. Note >>> that I asked the proponents to constrain the proposed charter to work i= tems >>> that should be able to be delivered within a short timeframe (around a >>> year) =E2=80=94 so that we can reassess the interest, and re-charter if= appropriate. >>> >>> The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal, so I=E2= =80=99m >>> cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discussion there. = Also, I >>> noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting, so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2= =80=99ing that list as >>> well. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Alvaro. >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Dcrouting mailing list >> Dcrouting@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrouting >> >> > --94eb2c1b5622d6cfd405622318a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Greg,

> I believe it will = be very interesting and helpful to look at the proposed dynamic flooding fr= om the point of experience of the Open/R and Terragraph.

Honestly I don't think so.=C2=A0=

The reason is that wh= at Tony Li proposed is an update to classic link state flooding. In fact he= is reusing existing DR/DIS in his proposal.=C2=A0
=
Open/R is using message bus for control plane = transport which is a completely different paradigm.=C2=A0

I am not making any judgement here wh= ich is better or worse scale or convergence wise. But at least to me there = are apples and oranges and comparing or drawing any conclusion from the beh= avior of one to the other seems quite bizarre.=C2=A0

Personally I like a lot Open/R real pub-sub = model. We have been using BGP to propagate p2p messages within p2mp protoco= l for way too long now. That nonsense has to stop. RTC has been proposed fo= r other reasons and is not the right way to filter BGP information to stret= ch it as p2p database distribution protocol. It would be very interesting t= o see proposals for BGP intra-domain transport using message bus.=C2=A0

But for robust topology d= iscovery, computing SPF, local protection with no constrains on network top= ology I guess I will still value link state for a while :).=C2=A0=C2=A0

And as already stated for= 95% of DCs where cluster size is up to 100 racks I think there is no issue= to use currently shipping OSPF or ISIS. When you go beyond that (if you as= an enterprise ever do) there is for more optimizations. But from my person= al experience building huge flat DC clusters is only applicable to very few= customers.=C2=A0

Very= frankly even issuing RFC describing use of BGP for DC fabric confused numb= er of folks with 5-10 racks and made them to insist that only BGP will work= and ISIS or OSPF is a very bad idea. Others for the very same reasons use = BGP only deployments in campus networks.=C2=A0

=
Let's be very careful what we consider as good= IETF work items and what we define here as standard tracks documents as ev= en if not intended they do have a ricochet effect.=C2=A0

Best,
Robert= .


On Sat, Jan 6, 2018 at 10:35 PM= , Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,
I= recall presentation by Petr Lapukhov on Open/R and Terragraph where the pr= inciple of optimized flooding was used. Of course, algorithms and mechanics= of the Open/R in Terragraph may be different from those proposed in the=C2=A0draft An Architecture for Dy= namic Flooding on Dense Graphs. I believe it will be very interesting and h= elpful to look at the proposed dynamic flooding from the point of experienc= e of the Open/R and Terragraph.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Robe= rt Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi Alvaro,

Happy New Year !!!

> That was pretty much the ques= tion asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0

Well .. in Sing= apore and during most of list discussions dynamic flooding proposal was not= on the table. Now it is.=C2=A0

To me this is game changer and any conclusions reached previously IMH= O should now be revisited.=C2=A0

As far as outcome of the BOF - I am not sure how the conclusion was = derived that we need new protocols - especially only those presented. In re= al practical cases a lot of DC clusters are build with at most few hundreds= of L3 nodes which in all flavors=C2=A0of current link state implementation= s will work just fine as is.=C2=A0

For MSDCs use of either eBGP or Open/R is deplo= yed.
<= br>
Now dynamic flooding = can extend link state to scale much larger.=C2=A0

Personally=C2=A0IMHO this case is solved. Maybe time to move on to oth= er areas ? :)

=
Best,
R.


<= div class=3D"gmail-m_5204468319542514966h5">

=
On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:02 AM, Alvaro Retana <= span dir=3D"ltr"><aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
On January 5, 2018 at 5:48:23 AM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote:

Robert:

Hi!=C2=A0 Happy New Year!
=
Do we really need yet one more new routing protocol v= s relatively minor extension of existing link state protocols ?=C2=A0

<= /div>
That was pr= etty much the question asked during the dcrouting BOF in Singapore.=C2=A0 S= tarting from the assumption that one size doesn=E2=80=99t fit all, the room= showed interest in working on solutions beyond the current work in isis/os= pf (which was also quickly reviewed there).

To be clear, the intent of chartering rift doesn=E2=80=99t mea= n that work in other WGs (including new proposals) should stop.=C2=A0 Quite= the contrary, if there is sustained interest in this effort, then we will = go on with it =E2=80=94 if there isn=E2=80=99t (for whatever reason), then = it will be clear as well.=C2=A0 Note that I asked the proponents to constra= in the proposed charter to work items that should be able to be delivered w= ithin a short timeframe (around a year) =E2=80=94 so that we can reassess t= he interest, and re-charter if appropriate.

The above obviously applies to the lsvr (aka BGP-SPF) proposal= , so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list here to avoid repeating the discu= ssion there.=C2=A0 Also, I noticed you forwarded your message to dcrouting,= so I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing that list as well.

Thanks!

Alvaro.


________________________= _______________________
Dcrouting mailing list
Dcrouting@ietf.org<= /a>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dcrouting<= /a>



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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: fTFIAipZZTiGstQYvJSIsIGraU69ei72GJj2hN9x6UguZVuRSEuFVSQ0i3rcp7e7nvN3G04yVuaxtvGT7prpxXcLcfZA6hmlTYawkXhiYftc6jtGMUw7voCrurooVEnq spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 78050826-68ce-4a1b-8366-08d55817f76c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Jan 2018 10:50:30.0744 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5PR0701MB2420 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:52:35 -0800 Subject: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:50:39 -0000 [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, how= ever "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have been added as the conc= epts originated in those working groups] Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG ch= arter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most welco= me.=20 WG page is to be setup soon. Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ls= vr Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR charter is = appreciated=20 ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** =A0 Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing=A0 =A0 The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to develop = and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of link-stat= e and path-vector routing mechanisms. =A0The LSVR WG will utilize existing = the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (RFC= 4271). Additionally, the=A0BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined in RFC77= 52 are utilized=A0to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing information= distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure compr= ised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost = toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined for control plane f= unction and policy-based routing decisions. =A0 The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single da= tacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a s= ingle distribution domain. =A0Routing protocol functionality defined by LSV= R would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing plane.= =A0 =A0 In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on st= andardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs)= , and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing Dijk= stra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encodin= g. =A0 For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until further = specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. =A0 - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure (dat= a set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor informat= ion, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can be uti= lized to make routing decisions. - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating LSV= R nodes in a single administrative domain. =A0 =A0 The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: =A0 - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter - T= arget Status: Informational - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra SPF = route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol baseline= functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards Track= (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficie= ntly reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to incl= ude privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards Track - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track =A0 LSVR Milestones: =A0 - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 From nobody Wed Jan 10 07:03:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB3012700F for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:03:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XjE0nY4I-fO1 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65C8C126B6E for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEE8245B49; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1515596614; bh=YHGQY2XPeNvMTS17cC15UzO2YvI17q4Tk6JV2tNS8FM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=V7TJ0VMzajIIm7nldUyoShK+Tv4AO9Q+8Cx7qWZ5pCMOSNC/YR0tM7AK2S0EsIjhp n7S8uwynpkFcVO0wCe55ZYjdhRUtVpgHDG0ihMipoiawoPYTfa03xniMhKw8TQ1YmT M5cn0OMY/sKzRIX93NUBmf8w8j6BVxg2I4GqcJic= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CBA6F2510C6; Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:03:33 -0800 (PST) To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 10:03:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 15:03:36 -0000 I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of interaction with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds the same prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR information. I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that neighboring devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such circumstance. But it is important. Yours, Joel On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most welcome. > > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR charter is appreciated > > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.  The LSVR WG will utilize existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a single distribution domain.  Routing protocol functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing plane. > > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encoding. > > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. > > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > > > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track > > LSVR Milestones: > > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > From nobody Thu Jan 11 01:50:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D3112E046 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id on8EOzV91hwh for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:49:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur01on0119.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.1.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C60E12EAC1 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:49:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=gUoasI/NpP7bOXtB/sE31TB7q3G6ZQ4zrpcl4QzRt/I=; b=r3NFPT/THIYJ/aWODLpByUnFW8xf1Ud+vgRuUxb1vFBP8aSB34FcA1UTHfHdjJWCzMNaXM2sz/fsVKndnU4QENxZ/RD6RAoxBbe0hrF3hDkXu3xj13dRRMx3/I125CPip+wF418pIXXRAvVBLthCEDZ9Koo369hOKf5C8cVabJ0= Received: from AM5PR0701MB2836.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.168.155.139) by AM5PR0701MB2577.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.173.92.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.428.9; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:49:53 +0000 Received: from AM5PR0701MB2836.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::645d:a0f3:c36b:9aa3]) by AM5PR0701MB2836.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::645d:a0f3:c36b:9aa3%14]) with mapi id 15.20.0407.005; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:49:53 +0000 From: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" To: "Joel M. 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11 Jan 2018 05:30:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UpptAicC12tL for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 05:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C78E1270A3 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 05:30:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1588A25834D; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 05:30:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1515677443; bh=tAi3aE0rdg/ZVvfeXDOVopLTHYSfTDe2IPhJ7ezlhiM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=VmA+nVUjCuuNk8HQ+mURHWGgD4ylHiMoPmmbfqmCbQpJ96fnCMBVHmnU/zHPdKCFq kNynyAyv7H91cUU/AHrNVZW+OIi/nmgDNxTxxPiI3yJTpijbFE8uXbBBPh4RAioei0 AFNdRDtezA/qJhYaDP4eOrHSNizSBrjgicG0Oqas= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3469124006B; Thu, 11 Jan 2018 05:30:42 -0800 (PST) To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 08:30:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 05:33:19 -0800 Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 13:30:45 -0000 My understanding from both the draft and the presentations in Singapore was that there was an expectation to use the same BGP running code and the same adjacencies to handle both sets of information (setting it up so one can use different BGPs for different SAFIs was a different work topic). As such, the RIB manager may not be in a position to draw the desired distinction. If we really want to constrain the implementation so that the RIB manager can do the job, then we need to say that very explicitly. Given that it is important for the usability of the result, and particularly given that different people have different views as to what level of information the working group needs to agree on, it seems that the charter needs to deal with this. Yours, Joel On 1/11/18 4:49 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > Hi Joel, > > It was my assumption that this would be part of the applicability document. > I am not sure it needs to be explicitly called out in a charter, because LSVR > and BGP are decoupled within the current charter. > LSVR does intend to re-use existing BGP technology (e.g. BGP-LS NLRI formats, and BGP loopfree NLRI distribution at scale). > > In general both, classic BGP, and LSVR provide route info that can be used by > a RIB. It is upto the device operator to define preference through policy, in same > fashion as if there would be ISIS and BGP route. There may be special protocol technical considerations when LSVR AF/SAFI is enabled, on other AF/SAFI's on same session, but that seems something to be documented in the " specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to include privacy and security considerations ", while informational "Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter " can discuss the co-existance considerations of classic BGP vs LSVR. > > G/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 16:04 > To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) ; Lsvr@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion > > I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of interaction with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds the same prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR information. > I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that neighboring devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such circumstance. But it is important. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have >> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >> >> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most welcome. >> >> WG page is to be setup soon. >> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >> >> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >> charter is appreciated >> >> >> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >> >> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >> >> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.  The LSVR WG will utilize existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >> >> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a single distribution domain.  Routing protocol functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing plane. >> >> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encoding. >> >> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. >> >> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can be utilized to make routing decisions. >> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >> >> >> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: >> >> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the >> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra >> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol >> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: >> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to >> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with >> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >> Standards Track >> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards >> Track >> >> LSVR Milestones: >> >> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtgwg mailing list >> rtgwg@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >> From nobody Fri Jan 12 08:16:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E90B12E897 for ; 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Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:16:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.64.185 with HTTP; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:16:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> From: Victor Kuarsingh Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 11:16:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Joel Halpern Direct Cc: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 16:16:07 -0000 Joel, On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Joel Halpern Direct wrote: > My understanding from both the draft and the presentations in Singapore was > that there was an expectation to use the same BGP running code and the same > adjacencies to handle both sets of information (setting it up so one can use > different BGPs for different SAFIs was a different work topic). As such, > the RIB manager may not be in a position to draw the desired distinction. > > If we really want to constrain the implementation so that the RIB manager > can do the job, then we need to say that very explicitly. If we were able to put a few words in charter which indicate the following, would you consider this acceptable to ensure we address these items as part of the work? (1). We could add few words in charter that documents should take coexistence with other unicast routing protocols (2). have text/discussion in the standard spec for afi/safi isolation from other afi/safi regards, Victor K > > Given that it is important for the usability of the result, and particularly > given that different people have different views as to what level of > information the working group needs to agree on, it seems that the charter > needs to deal with this. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 1/11/18 4:49 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >> >> Hi Joel, >> >> It was my assumption that this would be part of the applicability >> document. >> I am not sure it needs to be explicitly called out in a charter, because >> LSVR >> and BGP are decoupled within the current charter. >> LSVR does intend to re-use existing BGP technology (e.g. BGP-LS NLRI >> formats, and BGP loopfree NLRI distribution at scale). >> >> In general both, classic BGP, and LSVR provide route info that can be used >> by >> a RIB. It is upto the device operator to define preference through policy, >> in same >> fashion as if there would be ISIS and BGP route. There may be special >> protocol technical considerations when LSVR AF/SAFI is enabled, on other >> AF/SAFI's on same session, but that seems something to be documented in the >> " specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficiently >> reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to include >> privacy and security considerations ", while informational "Applicability >> Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter " can discuss the >> co-existance considerations of classic BGP vs LSVR. >> >> G/ >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 16:04 >> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >> ; Lsvr@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter >> discussion >> >> I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the >> documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of interaction >> with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds the same >> prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR >> information. >> I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that neighboring >> devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such >> circumstance. But it is important. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>> >>> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >>> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have >>> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >>> >>> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG >>> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >>> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most >>> welcome. >>> >>> WG page is to be setup soon. >>> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>> >>> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >>> charter is appreciated >>> >>> >>> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >>> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >>> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to >>> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of >>> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize >>> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from >>> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined >>> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing >>> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data >>> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor >>> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined >>> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >>> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a >>> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality >>> within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined >>> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing >>> plane. >>> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus >>> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors >>> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing >>> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI >>> encoding. >>> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until >>> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this >>> charter. >>> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure >>> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor >>> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can >>> be utilized to make routing decisions. >>> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating >>> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >>> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: >>> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the >>> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >>> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra >>> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol >>> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: >>> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >>> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with >>> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >>> Standards Track >>> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards >>> Track >>> LSVR Milestones: >>> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >>> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >>> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >>> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtgwg mailing list >>> rtgwg@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >>> > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr From nobody Fri Jan 12 08:25:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D2512E89B for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:25:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hIjQ26pMfCvI for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBC3112E897 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3664303110; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:24:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1515774299; bh=xXaf0n/KalpBIDUmKybq7stoPHYYvt6dkG4/7s8tQxQ=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=KNR2EJJlafNgXIp4+Is5yJPsAWkdCcuTUIKLAb/jq/s9k/SoGKfjhRWlv2jDa984J 8fySDsF+YHIzDB96ElDZOFAB+GTmOmABe1q8qPq8kcuAdm7q3FqIiMTaxeujv1eyIv xUkr3a4HQKSgG3/dxCWoJULl5VuD9xIUpYQiFQBA= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFCD430310E; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) To: Victor Kuarsingh Cc: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 11:24:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 16:25:02 -0000 It may be that I am missing the point. If so, I apologize. My concern is that the interaction of LSVR with other BGP AFI/SAFI is very different from the interaction BGP rotues with other protocol rotues. Probably, charter text talking about interaction with other AFI/SAFI would provide the needed hook to remind us of what needs to be dealt with. Yours, Joel On 1/12/18 11:16 AM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: > Joel, > > > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Joel Halpern Direct > wrote: >> My understanding from both the draft and the presentations in Singapore was >> that there was an expectation to use the same BGP running code and the same >> adjacencies to handle both sets of information (setting it up so one can use >> different BGPs for different SAFIs was a different work topic). As such, >> the RIB manager may not be in a position to draw the desired distinction. >> >> If we really want to constrain the implementation so that the RIB manager >> can do the job, then we need to say that very explicitly. > > If we were able to put a few words in charter which indicate the > following, would you consider this acceptable to ensure we address > these items as part of the work? > > > (1). We could add few words in charter that documents should take > coexistence with other unicast routing protocols > > > (2). have text/discussion in the standard spec for afi/safi isolation > from other afi/safi > > > regards, > > Victor K > > >> >> Given that it is important for the usability of the result, and particularly >> given that different people have different views as to what level of >> information the working group needs to agree on, it seems that the charter >> needs to deal with this. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 1/11/18 4:49 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>> >>> Hi Joel, >>> >>> It was my assumption that this would be part of the applicability >>> document. >>> I am not sure it needs to be explicitly called out in a charter, because >>> LSVR >>> and BGP are decoupled within the current charter. >>> LSVR does intend to re-use existing BGP technology (e.g. BGP-LS NLRI >>> formats, and BGP loopfree NLRI distribution at scale). >>> >>> In general both, classic BGP, and LSVR provide route info that can be used >>> by >>> a RIB. It is upto the device operator to define preference through policy, >>> in same >>> fashion as if there would be ISIS and BGP route. There may be special >>> protocol technical considerations when LSVR AF/SAFI is enabled, on other >>> AF/SAFI's on same session, but that seems something to be documented in the >>> " specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficiently >>> reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to include >>> privacy and security considerations ", while informational "Applicability >>> Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter " can discuss the >>> co-existance considerations of classic BGP vs LSVR. >>> >>> G/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 16:04 >>> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>> ; Lsvr@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter >>> discussion >>> >>> I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the >>> documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of interaction >>> with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds the same >>> prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR >>> information. >>> I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that neighboring >>> devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such >>> circumstance. But it is important. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>>> >>>> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >>>> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have >>>> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >>>> >>>> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG >>>> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >>>> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most >>>> welcome. >>>> >>>> WG page is to be setup soon. >>>> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>> >>>> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >>>> charter is appreciated >>>> >>>> >>>> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >>>> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >>>> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to >>>> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of >>>> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize >>>> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from >>>> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined >>>> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing >>>> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data >>>> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor >>>> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined >>>> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >>>> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a >>>> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality >>>> within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined >>>> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing >>>> plane. >>>> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus >>>> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors >>>> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing >>>> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI >>>> encoding. >>>> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until >>>> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this >>>> charter. >>>> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure >>>> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor >>>> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can >>>> be utilized to make routing decisions. >>>> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating >>>> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >>>> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: >>>> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the >>>> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >>>> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra >>>> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol >>>> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: >>>> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >>>> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with >>>> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >>>> Standards Track >>>> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards >>>> Track >>>> LSVR Milestones: >>>> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >>>> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >>>> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >>>> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> rtgwg mailing list >>>> rtgwg@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsvr mailing list >> Lsvr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr From nobody Fri Jan 12 10:18:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B7812785F for ; Fri, 12 Jan 2018 10:18:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham 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x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.198] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <891730B46AD36940A6C5FB5CB599F666@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:18:25 -0000 Sm9lbCwgVmljdG9yLCANCg0KSG93IGFib3V0IHdlIGp1c3QgYWRkIOKAnGluY2x1ZGluZyBjb2V4 aXN0ZW5jZSB3aXRoIGJhc2ljIElQdjQvSVB2NiB1bmljYXN0DQphZGRyZXNzIGZhbWlsaWVzIGlu c3RhbGxpbmcgYW5kIGFkdmVydGlzaW5nIHJvdXRlcyBpbnRvIHRoZSBzYW1lIFJJQi7igJ0NCkhv cGVmdWxseSwgIHdlIGNhbiBhcnJpdmUgYXQgYSBzb2x1dGlvbiBzaW1wbGVyIHRoYW4gdGhlIGNv ZXhpc3RlbmNlIG9mDQpSRkMgNDM2NCBWUE5zIGFuZCBFVlBOIHR5cGUgNSByb3V0ZXMuDQpUaGFu a3MsDQpBY2VlIA0KDQpPbiAxLzEyLzE4LCAxMToyNCBBTSwgIkxzdnIgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEpv 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(PST) To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Victor Kuarsingh Cc: "Lsvr@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <79ac5bd1-6a34-5d93-dee7-d2e9e2baddac@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 13:23:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:23:14 -0000 I can live with that. Yours, Joel On 1/12/18 1:18 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Joel, Victor, > > How about we just add “including coexistence with basic IPv4/IPv6 unicast > address families installing and advertising routes into the same RIB.” > Hopefully, we can arrive at a solution simpler than the coexistence of > RFC 4364 VPNs and EVPN type 5 routes. > Thanks, > Acee > > On 1/12/18, 11:24 AM, "Lsvr on behalf of Joel Halpern Direct" > wrote: > >> It may be that I am missing the point. If so, I apologize. >> My concern is that the interaction of LSVR with other BGP AFI/SAFI is >> very different from the interaction BGP rotues with other protocol rotues. >> >> Probably, charter text talking about interaction with other AFI/SAFI >> would provide the needed hook to remind us of what needs to be dealt with. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 1/12/18 11:16 AM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: >>> Joel, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Joel Halpern Direct >>> wrote: >>>> My understanding from both the draft and the presentations in >>>> Singapore was >>>> that there was an expectation to use the same BGP running code and the >>>> same >>>> adjacencies to handle both sets of information (setting it up so one >>>> can use >>>> different BGPs for different SAFIs was a different work topic). As >>>> such, >>>> the RIB manager may not be in a position to draw the desired >>>> distinction. >>>> >>>> If we really want to constrain the implementation so that the RIB >>>> manager >>>> can do the job, then we need to say that very explicitly. >>> >>> If we were able to put a few words in charter which indicate the >>> following, would you consider this acceptable to ensure we address >>> these items as part of the work? >>> >>> >>> (1). We could add few words in charter that documents should take >>> coexistence with other unicast routing protocols >>> >>> >>> (2). have text/discussion in the standard spec for afi/safi isolation >>> from other afi/safi >>> >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Victor K >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Given that it is important for the usability of the result, and >>>> particularly >>>> given that different people have different views as to what level of >>>> information the working group needs to agree on, it seems that the >>>> charter >>>> needs to deal with this. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 1/11/18 4:49 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>> >>>>> It was my assumption that this would be part of the applicability >>>>> document. >>>>> I am not sure it needs to be explicitly called out in a charter, >>>>> because >>>>> LSVR >>>>> and BGP are decoupled within the current charter. >>>>> LSVR does intend to re-use existing BGP technology (e.g. BGP-LS NLRI >>>>> formats, and BGP loopfree NLRI distribution at scale). >>>>> >>>>> In general both, classic BGP, and LSVR provide route info that can be >>>>> used >>>>> by >>>>> a RIB. It is upto the device operator to define preference through >>>>> policy, >>>>> in same >>>>> fashion as if there would be ISIS and BGP route. There may be special >>>>> protocol technical considerations when LSVR AF/SAFI is enabled, on >>>>> other >>>>> AF/SAFI's on same session, but that seems something to be documented >>>>> in the >>>>> " specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>>> efficiently >>>>> reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to >>>>> include >>>>> privacy and security considerations ", while informational >>>>> "Applicability >>>>> Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter " can discuss the >>>>> co-existance considerations of classic BGP vs LSVR. >>>>> >>>>> G/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 16:04 >>>>> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>>>> ; Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter >>>>> discussion >>>>> >>>>> I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the >>>>> documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of >>>>> interaction >>>>> with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds >>>>> the same >>>>> prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR >>>>> information. >>>>> I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that >>>>> neighboring >>>>> devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such >>>>> circumstance. But it is important. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Joel >>>>> >>>>> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >>>>>> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists >>>>>> have >>>>>> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >>>>>> >>>>>> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a >>>>>> possible WG >>>>>> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >>>>>> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most >>>>>> welcome. >>>>>> >>>>>> WG page is to be setup soon. >>>>>> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>>>> >>>>>> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >>>>>> charter is appreciated >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >>>>>> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >>>>>> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered >>>>>> to >>>>>> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a >>>>>> combination of >>>>>> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will >>>>>> utilize >>>>>> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling >>>>>> from >>>>>> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms >>>>>> defined >>>>>> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing >>>>>> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a >>>>>> data >>>>>> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, >>>>>> neighbor >>>>>> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are >>>>>> defined >>>>>> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >>>>>> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a >>>>>> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying >>>>>> functionality >>>>>> within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality >>>>>> defined >>>>>> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay >>>>>> routing >>>>>> plane. >>>>>> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will >>>>>> focus >>>>>> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State >>>>>> Vectors >>>>>> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing >>>>>> existing >>>>>> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS >>>>>> NRLI >>>>>> encoding. >>>>>> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and >>>>>> until >>>>>> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this >>>>>> charter. >>>>>> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data >>>>>> structure >>>>>> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, >>>>>> neighbor >>>>>> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes >>>>>> that can >>>>>> be utilized to make routing decisions. >>>>>> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of >>>>>> participating >>>>>> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >>>>>> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: >>>>>> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the >>>>>> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >>>>>> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard >>>>>> Dijkstra >>>>>> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP >>>>>> protocol >>>>>> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: >>>>>> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >>>>>> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>>>> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with >>>>>> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >>>>>> Standards Track >>>>>> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards >>>>>> Track >>>>>> LSVR Milestones: >>>>>> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >>>>>> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >>>>>> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >>>>>> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> rtgwg mailing list >>>>>> rtgwg@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Lsvr mailing list >>>> Lsvr@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsvr mailing list >> Lsvr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > From nobody Sun Jan 14 11:30:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33E712D834 for ; 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Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:30:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.64.185 with HTTP; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:30:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <79ac5bd1-6a34-5d93-dee7-d2e9e2baddac@joelhalpern.com> References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> <79ac5bd1-6a34-5d93-dee7-d2e9e2baddac@joelhalpern.com> From: Victor Kuarsingh Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:30:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:30:50 -0000 Joel/Acee, So to close on this, here is the suggested text added to charter proposal with the new working added. ** Updated Text - Paragraph 2 ** The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter=E2=80=99s underlay routing plane. The work will include coexistence with basic IPv4/IPv6 unicast address families installing and advertising routes into the same RIB ** End Updated Text ** regards, Victor K On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrot= e: > I can live with that. > Yours, > Joel > > On 1/12/18 1:18 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >> >> Joel, Victor, >> >> How about we just add =E2=80=9Cincluding coexistence with basic IPv4/IPv= 6 unicast >> address families installing and advertising routes into the same RIB.=E2= =80=9D >> Hopefully, we can arrive at a solution simpler than the coexistence of >> RFC 4364 VPNs and EVPN type 5 routes. >> Thanks, >> Acee >> >> On 1/12/18, 11:24 AM, "Lsvr on behalf of Joel Halpern Direct" >> wrote: >> >>> It may be that I am missing the point. If so, I apologize. >>> My concern is that the interaction of LSVR with other BGP AFI/SAFI is >>> very different from the interaction BGP rotues with other protocol >>> rotues. >>> >>> Probably, charter text talking about interaction with other AFI/SAFI >>> would provide the needed hook to remind us of what needs to be dealt >>> with. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 1/12/18 11:16 AM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: >>>> >>>> Joel, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Joel Halpern Direct >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My understanding from both the draft and the presentations in >>>>> Singapore was >>>>> that there was an expectation to use the same BGP running code and th= e >>>>> same >>>>> adjacencies to handle both sets of information (setting it up so one >>>>> can use >>>>> different BGPs for different SAFIs was a different work topic). As >>>>> such, >>>>> the RIB manager may not be in a position to draw the desired >>>>> distinction. >>>>> >>>>> If we really want to constrain the implementation so that the RIB >>>>> manager >>>>> can do the job, then we need to say that very explicitly. >>>> >>>> >>>> If we were able to put a few words in charter which indicate the >>>> following, would you consider this acceptable to ensure we address >>>> these items as part of the work? >>>> >>>> >>>> (1). We could add few words in charter that documents should take >>>> coexistence with other unicast routing protocols >>>> >>>> >>>> (2). have text/discussion in the standard spec for afi/safi isolation >>>> from other afi/safi >>>> >>>> >>>> regards, >>>> >>>> Victor K >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Given that it is important for the usability of the result, and >>>>> particularly >>>>> given that different people have different views as to what level of >>>>> information the working group needs to agree on, it seems that the >>>>> charter >>>>> needs to deal with this. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Joel >>>>> >>>>> On 1/11/18 4:49 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>> >>>>>> It was my assumption that this would be part of the applicability >>>>>> document. >>>>>> I am not sure it needs to be explicitly called out in a charter, >>>>>> because >>>>>> LSVR >>>>>> and BGP are decoupled within the current charter. >>>>>> LSVR does intend to re-use existing BGP technology (e.g. BGP-LS NLRI >>>>>> formats, and BGP loopfree NLRI distribution at scale). >>>>>> >>>>>> In general both, classic BGP, and LSVR provide route info that can b= e >>>>>> used >>>>>> by >>>>>> a RIB. It is upto the device operator to define preference through >>>>>> policy, >>>>>> in same >>>>>> fashion as if there would be ISIS and BGP route. There may be specia= l >>>>>> protocol technical considerations when LSVR AF/SAFI is enabled, on >>>>>> other >>>>>> AF/SAFI's on same session, but that seems something to be documented >>>>>> in the >>>>>> " specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>>>> efficiently >>>>>> reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to >>>>>> include >>>>>> privacy and security considerations ", while informational >>>>>> "Applicability >>>>>> Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter " can discuss the >>>>>> co-existance considerations of classic BGP vs LSVR. >>>>>> >>>>>> G/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 16:04 >>>>>> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>>>>> ; Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charte= r >>>>>> discussion >>>>>> >>>>>> I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the >>>>>> documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of >>>>>> interaction >>>>>> with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds >>>>>> the same >>>>>> prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR >>>>>> information. >>>>>> I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that >>>>>> neighboring >>>>>> devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such >>>>>> circumstance. But it is important. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours, >>>>>> Joel >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >>>>>>> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a >>>>>>> possible WG >>>>>>> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >>>>>>> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be mo= st >>>>>>> welcome. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WG page is to be setup soon. >>>>>>> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >>>>>>> charter is appreciated >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >>>>>>> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >>>>>>> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartere= d >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a >>>>>>> combination of >>>>>>> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will >>>>>>> utilize >>>>>>> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handlin= g >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms >>>>>>> defined >>>>>>> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routi= ng >>>>>>> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a >>>>>>> data >>>>>>> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, >>>>>>> neighbor >>>>>>> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are >>>>>>> defined >>>>>>> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >>>>>>> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation withi= n >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying >>>>>>> functionality >>>>>>> within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionalit= y >>>>>>> defined >>>>>>> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay >>>>>>> routing >>>>>>> plane. >>>>>>> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group wil= l >>>>>>> focus >>>>>>> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State >>>>>>> Vectors >>>>>>> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing >>>>>>> existing >>>>>>> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS >>>>>>> NRLI >>>>>>> encoding. >>>>>>> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and >>>>>>> until >>>>>>> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to thi= s >>>>>>> charter. >>>>>>> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data >>>>>>> structure >>>>>>> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, >>>>>>> neighbor >>>>>>> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes >>>>>>> that can >>>>>>> be utilized to make routing decisions. >>>>>>> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of >>>>>>> participating >>>>>>> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >>>>>>> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents= : >>>>>>> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the >>>>>>> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >>>>>>> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard >>>>>>> Dijkstra >>>>>>> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP >>>>>>> protocol >>>>>>> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: >>>>>>> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >>>>>>> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>>>>> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC wit= h >>>>>>> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >>>>>>> Standards Track >>>>>>> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards >>>>>>> Track >>>>>>> LSVR Milestones: >>>>>>> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >>>>>>> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >>>>>>> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >>>>>>> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> rtgwg mailing list >>>>>>> rtgwg@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Lsvr mailing list >>>>> Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Lsvr mailing list >>> Lsvr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >> >> > From nobody Sun Jan 14 11:33:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAC812D84F for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:33:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l0xeUkd9EEjH for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0253E129C6B for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFB31C02E5; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:33:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=1.tigertech; t=1515958430; bh=/+QmZ1Ys9U6qDttfZZj24ocOSY86A1fo80MmqmgySMs=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=bcXvOQt7l0s0brB7o3+H4cwEFtYgjJ/kwD6enoedq7vWTqieb3p0n/wzCB2cgrNML u1SmYuyANL4jBZRmLhoCUq++mHB+xJb7/kqZgrFELBIQ5+qzXXsn+uz5yPki2UIoXh yjaik6z/rJv7W5tzf1D7U5e0Ub1pL82ipTaQh6GA= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [50.225.209.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D9791C01C9; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:33:49 -0800 (PST) To: Victor Kuarsingh Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> <79ac5bd1-6a34-5d93-dee7-d2e9e2baddac@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:33:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 19:33:54 -0000 Good enough. Thanks for all the work. Joel On 1/14/18 2:30 PM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: > Joel/Acee, > > So to close on this, here is the suggested text added to charter > proposal with the new working added. > > ** Updated Text - Paragraph 2 ** > > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying > functionality within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol > functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a > datacenter’s underlay routing plane. The work will include > coexistence with basic IPv4/IPv6 unicast address families installing > and advertising routes into the same RIB > > ** End Updated Text ** > > > regards, > > Victor K > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I can live with that. >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 1/12/18 1:18 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >>> >>> Joel, Victor, >>> >>> How about we just add “including coexistence with basic IPv4/IPv6 unicast >>> address families installing and advertising routes into the same RIB.” >>> Hopefully, we can arrive at a solution simpler than the coexistence of >>> RFC 4364 VPNs and EVPN type 5 routes. >>> Thanks, >>> Acee >>> >>> On 1/12/18, 11:24 AM, "Lsvr on behalf of Joel Halpern Direct" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It may be that I am missing the point. If so, I apologize. >>>> My concern is that the interaction of LSVR with other BGP AFI/SAFI is >>>> very different from the interaction BGP rotues with other protocol >>>> rotues. >>>> >>>> Probably, charter text talking about interaction with other AFI/SAFI >>>> would provide the needed hook to remind us of what needs to be dealt >>>> with. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 1/12/18 11:16 AM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Joel, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Joel Halpern Direct >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> My understanding from both the draft and the presentations in >>>>>> Singapore was >>>>>> that there was an expectation to use the same BGP running code and the >>>>>> same >>>>>> adjacencies to handle both sets of information (setting it up so one >>>>>> can use >>>>>> different BGPs for different SAFIs was a different work topic). As >>>>>> such, >>>>>> the RIB manager may not be in a position to draw the desired >>>>>> distinction. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we really want to constrain the implementation so that the RIB >>>>>> manager >>>>>> can do the job, then we need to say that very explicitly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If we were able to put a few words in charter which indicate the >>>>> following, would you consider this acceptable to ensure we address >>>>> these items as part of the work? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (1). We could add few words in charter that documents should take >>>>> coexistence with other unicast routing protocols >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (2). have text/discussion in the standard spec for afi/safi isolation >>>>> from other afi/safi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> regards, >>>>> >>>>> Victor K >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Given that it is important for the usability of the result, and >>>>>> particularly >>>>>> given that different people have different views as to what level of >>>>>> information the working group needs to agree on, it seems that the >>>>>> charter >>>>>> needs to deal with this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours, >>>>>> Joel >>>>>> >>>>>> On 1/11/18 4:49 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It was my assumption that this would be part of the applicability >>>>>>> document. >>>>>>> I am not sure it needs to be explicitly called out in a charter, >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> LSVR >>>>>>> and BGP are decoupled within the current charter. >>>>>>> LSVR does intend to re-use existing BGP technology (e.g. BGP-LS NLRI >>>>>>> formats, and BGP loopfree NLRI distribution at scale). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In general both, classic BGP, and LSVR provide route info that can be >>>>>>> used >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> a RIB. It is upto the device operator to define preference through >>>>>>> policy, >>>>>>> in same >>>>>>> fashion as if there would be ISIS and BGP route. There may be special >>>>>>> protocol technical considerations when LSVR AF/SAFI is enabled, on >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> AF/SAFI's on same session, but that seems something to be documented >>>>>>> in the >>>>>>> " specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>>>>> efficiently >>>>>>> reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to >>>>>>> include >>>>>>> privacy and security considerations ", while informational >>>>>>> "Applicability >>>>>>> Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter " can discuss the >>>>>>> co-existance considerations of classic BGP vs LSVR. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> G/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 16:04 >>>>>>> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>>>>>> ; Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter >>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the >>>>>>> documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of >>>>>>> interaction >>>>>>> with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds >>>>>>> the same >>>>>>> prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR >>>>>>> information. >>>>>>> I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that >>>>>>> neighboring >>>>>>> devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such >>>>>>> circumstance. But it is important. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >>>>>>>> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a >>>>>>>> possible WG >>>>>>>> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >>>>>>>> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most >>>>>>>> welcome. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> WG page is to be setup soon. >>>>>>>> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >>>>>>>> charter is appreciated >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >>>>>>>> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >>>>>>>> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a >>>>>>>> combination of >>>>>>>> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will >>>>>>>> utilize >>>>>>>> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms >>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing >>>>>>>> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a >>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, >>>>>>>> neighbor >>>>>>>> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are >>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >>>>>>>> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying >>>>>>>> functionality >>>>>>>> within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality >>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay >>>>>>>> routing >>>>>>>> plane. >>>>>>>> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will >>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State >>>>>>>> Vectors >>>>>>>> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing >>>>>>>> existing >>>>>>>> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS >>>>>>>> NRLI >>>>>>>> encoding. >>>>>>>> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and >>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this >>>>>>>> charter. >>>>>>>> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data >>>>>>>> structure >>>>>>>> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, >>>>>>>> neighbor >>>>>>>> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes >>>>>>>> that can >>>>>>>> be utilized to make routing decisions. >>>>>>>> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of >>>>>>>> participating >>>>>>>> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >>>>>>>> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: >>>>>>>> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the >>>>>>>> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >>>>>>>> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard >>>>>>>> Dijkstra >>>>>>>> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP >>>>>>>> protocol >>>>>>>> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: >>>>>>>> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >>>>>>>> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>>>>>> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with >>>>>>>> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >>>>>>>> Standards Track >>>>>>>> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards >>>>>>>> Track >>>>>>>> LSVR Milestones: >>>>>>>> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >>>>>>>> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >>>>>>>> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >>>>>>>> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> rtgwg mailing list >>>>>>>> rtgwg@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Lsvr mailing list >>>>>> Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Lsvr mailing list >>>> Lsvr@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>> >>> >> From nobody Sun Jan 14 12:08:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D100312D778 for ; 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14 Jan 2018 20:08:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w0EK85Dw021656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 14 Jan 2018 20:08:05 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:08:04 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:08:04 -0500 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Victor Kuarsingh CC: "Lsvr@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Thread-Topic: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Thread-Index: AdOJ/UwcaD75A6yMRfGV3jqNSACMxQAUMtiAACSqvbEAQnKFAAAAT94A///LxwCAAzj/94AAVKYA//+1r4A= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 20:08:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> <79ac5bd1-6a34-5d93-dee7-d2e9e2baddac@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.198] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 20:08:10 -0000 U291bmQgZ29vZCB0byBtZSAod2l0aCBmaW5hbCBwZXJpb2QgO14pDQpUaGFua3MsDQpBY2VlDQoN Ck9uIDEvMTQvMTgsIDI6MzMgUE0sICJKb2VsIE0uIEhhbHBlcm4iIDxqbWhAam9lbGhhbHBlcm4u Y29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkdvb2QgZW5vdWdoLg0KPlRoYW5rcyBmb3IgYWxsIHRoZSB3b3JrLg0K PkpvZWwNCj4NCj5PbiAxLzE0LzE4IDI6MzAgUE0sIFZpY3RvciBLdWFyc2luZ2ggd3JvdGU6DQo+ PiBKb2VsL0FjZWUsDQo+PiANCj4+IFNvIHRvIGNsb3NlIG9uIHRoaXMsIGhlcmUgaXMgdGhlIHN1 Z2dlc3RlZCB0ZXh0IGFkZGVkIHRvIGNoYXJ0ZXINCj4+IHByb3Bvc2FsIHdpdGggdGhlIG5ldyB3 b3JraW5nIGFkZGVkLg0KPj4gDQo+PiAqKiBVcGRhdGVkIFRleHQgLSBQYXJhZ3JhcGggMiAqKg0K Pj4gDQo+PiBUaGUgTFNWUiBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIGlzIGluaXRpYWxseSBmb2N1c2VkIG9uIG9w ZXJhdGlvbiB3aXRoaW4gYQ0KPj4gc2luZ2xlIGRhdGFjZW50ZXIgKERDKSB3aXRoIHByZWxpbWlu YXJ5IGZvY3VzIG9uIHNwZWNpZnlpbmcNCj4+IGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHkgd2l0aGluIGEgc2luZ2xl 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dnIgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+Pj4+PiBMc3ZyQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pj4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xzdnINCj4+Pj4NCj4+Pj4NCj4+Pg0KDQo= From nobody Sun Jan 14 15:24:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8AE12D88E for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:24:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PW7Uo18r-8KK for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 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([2601:646:8b03:d12c:8d9e:c164:848c:94b9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a9sm15185255pfi.55.2018.01.14.15.24.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:24:49 -0800 (PST) From: Gaurav Dawra Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:24:48 -0800 Message-Id: References: Cc: gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, victor@jvknet.com To: Gaurav Dawra , Lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:24:53 -0000 Folks, Support for the Below charter and it looks like a good initial place to star= t these discussions. Inter-op and utilization of existing AFI/SAFIs transpor= t would be useful too. Also to keep the discussions open beyond just BGP-LS t= o distribute the information as future extensions as well. Looking forward to learn and contribute. Cheers, Gaurav > On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >=20 > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >=20 > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. >=20 > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >=20 > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > charter is appreciated >=20 >=20 > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined= > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defin= ed > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing > plane. > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existi= ng > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI > encoding. > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > charter. > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that c= an > be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > Track > LSVR Milestones: > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >=20 _______________________________________________ Lsvr= From nobody Sun Jan 14 15:25:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F00BE12D88F for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:25:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ozUrI7tACd02 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl0-x235.google.com (mail-pl0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A9161200B9 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 1so2413787plv.0 for ; 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([2601:646:8b03:d12c:8d9e:c164:848c:94b9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e87sm57435618pfd.165.2018.01.14.15.25.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:25:39 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Gaurav Dawra X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 15:25:38 -0800 Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Victor Kuarsingh , "Lsvr@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8494251D-7A32-4A1A-9006-985EBC2BCD5C@gmail.com> References: <41561533-54c0-0505-04bd-78ea57d9b05f@joelhalpern.com> <4114f58c-a0b4-add2-9e64-9c750d5c43fe@joelhalpern.com> <79ac5bd1-6a34-5d93-dee7-d2e9e2baddac@joelhalpern.com> To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:25:44 -0000 Looks good to me as well. Cheers, Gaurav Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 14, 2018, at 12:08 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >=20 > Sound good to me (with final period ;^) > Thanks, > Acee >=20 >> On 1/14/18, 2:33 PM, "Joel M. Halpern" wrote: >>=20 >> Good enough. >> Thanks for all the work. >> Joel >>=20 >>> On 1/14/18 2:30 PM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: >>> Joel/Acee, >>>=20 >>> So to close on this, here is the suggested text added to charter >>> proposal with the new working added. >>>=20 >>> ** Updated Text - Paragraph 2 ** >>>=20 >>> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a >>> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying >>> functionality within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol >>> functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a >>> datacenter=E2=80=99s underlay routing plane. The work will include >>> coexistence with basic IPv4/IPv6 unicast address families installing >>> and advertising routes into the same RIB >>>=20 >>> ** End Updated Text ** >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> regards, >>>=20 >>> Victor K >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Joel M. Halpern >>> wrote: >>>> I can live with that. >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>>=20 >>>>> On 1/12/18 1:18 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Joel, Victor, >>>>>=20 >>>>> How about we just add =E2=80=9Cincluding coexistence with basic IPv4/I= Pv6 >>>>> unicast >>>>> address families installing and advertising routes into the same RIB.=E2= =80=9D >>>>> Hopefully, we can arrive at a solution simpler than the coexistence >>>>> of >>>>> RFC 4364 VPNs and EVPN type 5 routes. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Acee >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 1/12/18, 11:24 AM, "Lsvr on behalf of Joel Halpern Direct" >>>>> wrote:= >>>>>=20 >>>>>> It may be that I am missing the point. If so, I apologize. >>>>>> My concern is that the interaction of LSVR with other BGP AFI/SAFI is= >>>>>> very different from the interaction BGP rotues with other protocol >>>>>> rotues. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Probably, charter text talking about interaction with other AFI/SAFI >>>>>> would provide the needed hook to remind us of what needs to be dealt >>>>>> with. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Yours, >>>>>> Joel >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 1/12/18 11:16 AM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Joel Halpern Direct >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> My understanding from both the draft and the presentations in >>>>>>>> Singapore was >>>>>>>> that there was an expectation to use the same BGP running code and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> adjacencies to handle both sets of information (setting it up so >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> can use >>>>>>>> different BGPs for different SAFIs was a different work topic). As= >>>>>>>> such, >>>>>>>> the RIB manager may not be in a position to draw the desired >>>>>>>> distinction. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> If we really want to constrain the implementation so that the RIB >>>>>>>> manager >>>>>>>> can do the job, then we need to say that very explicitly. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> If we were able to put a few words in charter which indicate the >>>>>>> following, would you consider this acceptable to ensure we address >>>>>>> these items as part of the work? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> (1). We could add few words in charter that documents should take >>>>>>> coexistence with other unicast routing protocols >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> (2). have text/discussion in the standard spec for afi/safi >>>>>>> isolation >>>>>>> from other afi/safi >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> regards, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Victor K >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Given that it is important for the usability of the result, and >>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>> given that different people have different views as to what level >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> information the working group needs to agree on, it seems that the >>>>>>>> charter >>>>>>>> needs to deal with this. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 1/11/18 4:49 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> It was my assumption that this would be part of the applicability >>>>>>>>> document. >>>>>>>>> I am not sure it needs to be explicitly called out in a charter, >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> LSVR >>>>>>>>> and BGP are decoupled within the current charter. >>>>>>>>> LSVR does intend to re-use existing BGP technology (e.g. BGP-LS >>>>>>>>> NLRI >>>>>>>>> formats, and BGP loopfree NLRI distribution at scale). >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> In general both, classic BGP, and LSVR provide route info that >>>>>>>>> can be >>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>> a RIB. It is upto the device operator to define preference through= >>>>>>>>> policy, >>>>>>>>> in same >>>>>>>>> fashion as if there would be ISIS and BGP route. There may be >>>>>>>>> special >>>>>>>>> protocol technical considerations when LSVR AF/SAFI is enabled, on= >>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> AF/SAFI's on same session, but that seems something to be >>>>>>>>> documented >>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>> " specification documenting protocol extensions required to >>>>>>>>> efficiently >>>>>>>>> reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to >>>>>>>>> include >>>>>>>>> privacy and security considerations ", while informational >>>>>>>>> "Applicability >>>>>>>>> Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter " can discuss the >>>>>>>>> co-existance considerations of classic BGP vs LSVR. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> G/ >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 16:04 >>>>>>>>> To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>>>>>>>> ; Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) >>>>>>>>> charter >>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I had expected the charter to explicitly call out the need for the= >>>>>>>>> documents to call out the need for an analysis and discussion of >>>>>>>>> interaction >>>>>>>>> with the conventional BGP decision process when the same BGP finds= >>>>>>>>> the same >>>>>>>>> prefix reachable in its conventional DV information and its LSVR >>>>>>>>> information. >>>>>>>>> I expect that it should be straightforward to make sure that >>>>>>>>> neighboring >>>>>>>>> devices reach the same conclusions about forwarding path in such >>>>>>>>> circumstance. But it is important. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >>>>>>>>>> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists= >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a >>>>>>>>>> possible WG >>>>>>>>>> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >>>>>>>>>> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be >>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>> welcome. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> WG page is to be setup soon. >>>>>>>>>> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >>>>>>>>>> charter is appreciated >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >>>>>>>>>> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >>>>>>>>>> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is >>>>>>>>>> chartered >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a >>>>>>>>>> combination of >>>>>>>>>> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will >>>>>>>>>> utilize >>>>>>>>>> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error >>>>>>>>>> handling >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding >>>>>>>>>> mechanisms >>>>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>>>> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) >>>>>>>>>> routing >>>>>>>>>> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a= >>>>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, >>>>>>>>>> neighbor >>>>>>>>>> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are= >>>>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>>>> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >>>>>>>>>> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation >>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying >>>>>>>>>> functionality >>>>>>>>>> within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol >>>>>>>>>> functionality >>>>>>>>>> defined >>>>>>>>>> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay= >>>>>>>>>> routing >>>>>>>>>> plane. >>>>>>>>>> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>>>> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State= >>>>>>>>>> Vectors >>>>>>>>>> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection >>>>>>>>>> utilizing >>>>>>>>>> existing >>>>>>>>>> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and >>>>>>>>>> BGP-LS >>>>>>>>>> NRLI >>>>>>>>>> encoding. >>>>>>>>>> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> until >>>>>>>>>> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> charter. >>>>>>>>>> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a >>>>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>> structure >>>>>>>>>> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, >>>>>>>>>> neighbor >>>>>>>>>> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential >>>>>>>>>> attributes >>>>>>>>>> that can >>>>>>>>>> be utilized to make routing decisions. >>>>>>>>>> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of >>>>>>>>>> participating >>>>>>>>>> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >>>>>>>>>> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following >>>>>>>>>> documents: >>>>>>>>>> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >>>>>>>>>> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard >>>>>>>>>> Dijkstra >>>>>>>>>> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP >>>>>>>>>> protocol >>>>>>>>>> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - >>>>>>>>>> Target: >>>>>>>>>> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >>>>>>>>>> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >>>>>>>>>> Standards Track >>>>>>>>>> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards= >>>>>>>>>> Track >>>>>>>>>> LSVR Milestones: >>>>>>>>>> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >>>>>>>>>> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >>>>>>>>>> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >>>>>>>>>> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> rtgwg mailing list >>>>>>>>>> rtgwg@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Lsvr mailing list >>>>>>>> Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Lsvr mailing list >>>>>> Lsvr@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr From nobody Thu Jan 18 09:22:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826B4129516 for ; 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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:21:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.159.26 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 09:21:55 -0800 (PST) From: Pushpasis Sarkar Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 22:51:55 +0530 Message-ID: To: lsvr@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114752ce56cf8b0563103310" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 17:22:16 -0000 --001a114752ce56cf8b0563103310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi All, I went through the charter details, and it seems to be in a quite good state to get things started. Hoping we can accommodate some changes here and there (if at all needed). Looking forward to contributing more on this soon. Thanks and regards, -Pushpasis > On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. > > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > charter is appreciated > > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing > plane. > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI > encoding. > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > charter. > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can > be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > Track > LSVR Milestones: > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > _______________________________________________ Lsvr References: - Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Victor Kuarsingh --001a114752ce56cf8b0563103310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Hi All,
<= pre class=3D"gmail-wordwrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;overflow:auto;f= ont-family:Menlo,Monaco,Consolas,"Courier New",monospace;font-siz= e:13px;padding:0px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:1.42857143= ;word-break:normal;word-wrap:normal;border:0px none black;border-top-left-r= adius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border= -bottom-left-radius:4px;white-space:pre-wrap">I went through the charter de= tails, and it seems to be in a quite good state to get things started. Hopi= ng we can accommodate some changes here and there (if at all needed). 
Looking forward to contribu=
ting more on this soon.
Thanks and regards,
-P=
ushpasis

> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De = Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >=20 > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > lsvr@iet= f.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting&q= uot; email lists have > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >=20 > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible = WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. >=20 > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >=20 > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > charter is appreciated >=20 >=20 > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination= of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utili= ze > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling f= rom > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms def= ined > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbo= r > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defi= ned > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functional= ity > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality d= efined > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay = routing > plane. > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focu= s > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vect= ors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing ex= isting > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRL= I > encoding. > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > charter. > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structu= re > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes th= at can > be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participatin= g > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > Track > LSVR Milestones: > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@i= etf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg= >=20 _______________________________________________ Lsvr
--001a114752ce56cf8b0563103310-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 10:15:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8DA2126C25 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:15:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M-Le4ZZeMNAF for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x241.google.com (mail-pg0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7736127137 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x241.google.com with SMTP id d6so14944481pgv.2 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:15:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BGrGQkx6zxD6QIjJ0XpmENP5aVlnbjZq8U/OJ5jBiFU=; b=gGfFnJJR6wXqxCTweTLHmUJSJyPsxTEACR2ApqjBgD9GTA/2usOk/6jLIqRxemvggm c+WJy9Viieu+HLz47d55SgfnYjceVEPHvks0q3WkSd/nnls+Gaww8687f2EPmdz0bZiG 933h9oN7iwfbOFmxXCdFmXcM9jwrZcs3NhxjKcPbETsKTQG/4O4A7OzpT5qSMOhRYZu2 bA3FM4U5U7ERvgz4chKVWsWCKLAaTC49FD6FjKelE4yR/NaNkYJHSL05zD+U9S35sAIc FlXiEcA8yClNYzSybf7hFfTNGII6R6b2mLyaqFPjefPmAqW80OP5aqohoOJcS3rCWQ9X SMcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BGrGQkx6zxD6QIjJ0XpmENP5aVlnbjZq8U/OJ5jBiFU=; b=ZkPqPO8ggEhuNKIragQpkDP/VhN0ulRriD0U2Pbnx3y0vKYLx/j3juqcdcH2SDdaIl QCJ/uCv1H2EEGR0A5JhbCdUjfz4qU5HeFNdUGV/fu0CQH0zoB1tklhFnmqFHzq3GxjFw dd92BRLAe+RZRBfymoi+EcVYXNRPdeu/nWH+ggbdeBvwm+rFAlHXUn0O6rW36rfeYOHF e2oi5CsoigBQrIWzLP/RQbEVikiHtZwe16KKNbLbgCisRf2yfCRr7O1dAojzKBcH1EJC d254yAHrZg/BWRocaBS00weKcgwbESy6kfCA09es9maAez7Tt7PTtjRZHGtaun7Gx4Hk LSJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytfCiFKsUCXLRrFSHYChhipAlcmaSNEisOIEZq1DGNsjP46fhYMc wCxj2Sz2Gj5ufdUm//qha3a+XOfY X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBou613WqEhVp2wAmcB/amfwOLH4cd7ykV98akf7iRggSnD3Ktbo353k4vHJi1b00gJ9VCdRkJg== X-Received: by 10.98.133.93 with SMTP id u90mr27894033pfd.134.1516299336922; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:109:c009::b? ([2620:109:c009::b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u26sm15922896pfk.126.2018.01.18.10.15.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:15:35 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Gaurav Dawra X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:15:35 -0800 Cc: gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, victor@jvknet.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <272E946C-8A80-4C4A-A581-DE5BB09AFC38@gmail.com> References: To: Gaurav Dawra , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:15:40 -0000 >=20 >> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >>=20 >> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on >> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have >> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >>=20 >> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG >> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). >> Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most >> welcome. >>=20 >> WG page is to be setup soon. >> Subscription to LSVR mailing list: >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >>=20 >> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR >> charter is appreciated >>=20 >>=20 >> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** >> Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing >> The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to >> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of= >> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize >> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from= >> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms define= d >> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing >> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data >> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor >> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined= >> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. >> The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a >> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality= >> within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defi= ned >> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing= >> plane. >> In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus >> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors= >> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing exist= ing >> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI >> encoding. >> For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until >> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this >> charter. >> - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure >> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor >> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that c= an >> be utilized to make routing decisions. >> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating >> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. >> The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: >> - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the >> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational >> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra >> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol >> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: >> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) >> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to >> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with >> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: >> Standards Track >> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards >> Track >> LSVR Milestones: >> - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 >> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 >> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 >> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rtgwg mailing list >> rtgwg@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr From nobody Thu Jan 18 10:54:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C8912D574 for ; 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Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [100.64.9.93] ([216.52.21.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r26sm15484847pfi.72.2018.01.18.10.54.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:54:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Gaurav Dawra Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:54:43 -0800 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Lsvr@ietf.org, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, victor@jvknet.com X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:54:48 -0000 Folks, As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to more DC/Scal= e requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea of running BGP o= ver multiple ports(besides 179). Cheers, Gaurav Sent from my iPhone > On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: >=20 > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >=20 > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. >=20 > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >=20 > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > charter is appreciated >=20 >=20 > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined= > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defin= ed > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing > plane. > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existi= ng > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI > encoding. > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > charter. > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that c= an > be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > Track > LSVR Milestones: > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg _______________________________________________ Lsvr= From nobody Thu Jan 18 14:17:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9201205D3 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:17:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iMleT_7EsqUE for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94F5E12025C for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ecIVD-0002Xz-UT; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 22:17:44 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:17:43 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Gaurav Dawra Cc: Lsvr@ietf.org, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com, victor@jvknet.com In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 22:17:47 -0000 > As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to more > DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea of > running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179). i'm feeling slow todsy. is this a hint that, for example, spf might use a diff port? randy From nobody Thu Jan 18 14:25:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35AD126C19 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:25:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3zYOZRvGPvo0 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEE7E12025C for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id g1so203442wmg.2 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:25:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=sWXs7PLdEXtpEq49wq48n/GC1O9yZajRluO8h34n0OA=; b=CP1G22PMYv4P8i222exa4pSB0VOWHjmSkEzJJ6ccksiOCMEjJ3x+5k9NHixe4CgPxF 48m9lV/77Edqz51+Wo/ilZgcLt+tjOIF+6INWyqnEQVyRFpM51N6HU3Qu6Fp+Z6XcQVn c+FuRJnojsVdWlGCVI/c1LcZMgnPEh/SI+qroQJpS5xo/4fiy6zfTOVhLm//V/oCBPUY 6tVYgrox8zlLc2tMynwMzIXMHHTnnvA7GxECN5BrChKLNybxik7jO8cXeSr1VWQD17ot fNhTWBbkNJjLrc5EFa6Du3q5fDqwj2kihgYeDmVCnWl3QADhRsLMLUfRR9FcRTvtotpX PRww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sWXs7PLdEXtpEq49wq48n/GC1O9yZajRluO8h34n0OA=; b=UUpu/sl3h71aabOKeyyKLbgxXGA5wEJ/Ev3ACo1FbVxl6cqV4h27Qu4cxlHAWWeeAn YivT16AE5oyb7fRHQSdJgCm4v5EpkpGGfByGXxFE1FeZxvKKMLjKkQcmY28DM9RGyrAW ra5DASWedrSSapbMRGn+xft5wGGHK3P7Y00fUJgaFO77KMDmMWtFe3k62BtXNgge0hHF 8bMxZdME+VPdI0ipmG4dQWMMX5mci1UnbJkDDcSKZbTd88GfnxNQPMPM3Qd42zrc7nx4 G5nVJz40vhXCXgjgaFIzbjFFoE4OKaEqxlFyqHsU3YlAC/LynKkU4M2pgES7UIPCenHz pwxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytezh2z3tYZyXAo1ndX2HqCNYHNGbNOBrw91LZngUFfWiSO2ZSqs 2Xxp8AvNp4cPDGMcXyY6acTYmXbhe2f1im0f8eg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovo7zyb5BycUNn7uVEkT44U/V1hetCIjzf1CFAIREalaZ7CCFEXpuSd/K5gzGdYNKUYhY2xtL/Z10p2N9sgEXk= X-Received: by 10.28.154.67 with SMTP id c64mr6681626wme.125.1516314308021; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:25:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.74.139 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.28.74.139 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:25:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:25:07 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: VheKKIyFpwOIw9ftaW_O5mNKM4U Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: Gaurav Dawra , Victor Kuarsingh , Lsvr@ietf.org, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b458eb2948d0563146f9f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 22:25:12 -0000 --001a114b458eb2948d0563146f9f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Exactement ! See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-ti-bgp-01 Best, R. On Jan 18, 2018 23:17, "Randy Bush" wrote: > > As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to more > > DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea of > > running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179). > > i'm feeling slow todsy. is this a hint that, for example, spf might use > a diff port? > > randy > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > --001a114b458eb2948d0563146f9f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Jan 18, 2018 23:= 17, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.c= om> wrote:
&g= t; As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to more
> DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea of<= br> > running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179).

i'm feeling slow todsy.=C2=A0 is this a hint that, for example, spf mig= ht use
a diff port?

randy

_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr
--001a114b458eb2948d0563146f9f-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 14:33:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CAC5126C19 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:22:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BfObh6k1TOx6 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22f.google.com (mail-pg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D5D412025C for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:22:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n17so7901523pgf.10 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:22:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=PCbp7Gr2+8ZVgrOetcRrgLJZXTmtX/U5QopWE875jhg=; b=G6UBj4ja0O1CR+eN8kZE2Cf/FQ79pydI4gf61vbK75ac+yx8vJvTUS/Q0Lp/wu7oPp LbOxFRaSGz4QDtIgyPxeYAY0VZaFwSsyhdWcKAwt1itIAXgum3avRdnaSqh/1IqNStHw UOY9g1GXX2yFNS2xSPGJuWw91lcUE2OravrZJEBbigc33BvFebHU0ItkvUAnmb+tVpB5 jyI2V5y/JsE86OveyY6YNBrAzhn/TUPRkgmEtY/Kj/oTWIG2mnTlAPZYCIgLZP+a5qDX fKrXgEyuz0Tj1zHrESBMf9j7RBYJyHJWM6kF+nZF3Kx1nHuSKwLMKcqX8o3RfjXz8u7T sxIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=PCbp7Gr2+8ZVgrOetcRrgLJZXTmtX/U5QopWE875jhg=; b=DTM93P/58Vd954S51omq9AjioD2+ZWYOqanqX1xLOkF4RlLEZLxYI7m7+p5GSDNDkn OZrRU+9fYsyGIc5DNzQ1iyKqJC8QQKtI1kP5vW9M4eg/7yttJFjio/PewqGZLEV/iOFP /lUXpxjaqi8WOXJGeedqlyJjm+HjY20cbwCeuf3bP9L/fArYX7JnqI7Vci5TZDfI3JQg QVIn5McK/iPKcwzQlVva5+bYdYhavvoBXADfMYS+jIM+Z5hB0BRyHA6bbl2byvR//O4/ zIIcGUbzc+mduB6HONWtmb1mqML/pt+PQBfFVIPhru0QNfV2O7e/h4QER9pr/vF4sFRN FhSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdJSSVwsXBD1TRbQ1cMfrAoUIwSgBj1TE1nS4bFuiExkIxQUkZX 5RpAZ/sCuraVbITTP/E+a5g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosIpkNBVanO0m2ESdTwYV5oY006MoC9Caf9gXiRxFXD5uuYUkESx4HSAtpXOHRMZjW1GV6tkg== X-Received: by 10.99.174.15 with SMTP id q15mr21168089pgf.265.1516314134978; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.22.228.216] ([162.210.130.3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n76sm14880377pfh.95.2018.01.18.14.22.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:22:14 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Tony Li In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:22:13 -0800 Cc: Gaurav Dawra , victor@jvknet.com, Lsvr@ietf.org, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> References: To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:33:26 -0800 Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 22:22:17 -0000 > >> As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to more >> DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea of >> running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179). > > i'm feeling slow todsy. is this a hint that, for example, spf might use > a diff port? And how would that help? Tony From nobody Thu Jan 18 14:53:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA30126C0F for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SIlAJm55kQVQ for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x230.google.com (mail-wm0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F8511205D3 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x230.google.com with SMTP id g1so23753wmg.2 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ek5Pv6WuEeT9VPJLZeSP1l6a55DZfWjvc+68dCndXqQ=; b=Ppv5QLQMF7XmaGX/EgyYZX1Ylx5JA9PA5SuSIcq092jcyd0FTQH4Y70TgdL0s52hFj 3tEksiBMnEqFGJ5p95WCAzZtdFj/Be0teHq77gpGHaewOegQzC4XlLpZDjdSgX2DYnSh SYAuVXMjjxmkccuOA2Y1HCmc2kJet9gC0AulbWdN0uh8uTGWV+q2YY8RCe9jdxFhL4gq 8YH3f4pp4F1tg/dHcDzK69tWZyYvejnJ83oZh6klP+aESlQST7kUduMlEhG+gVhqQcls oyNgY99HZCGhBiBIdpT7us7fwHOqEPXp0/e26pVytWjgxHD3D6g8bhO0XOzdxzfHfGNs kysw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ek5Pv6WuEeT9VPJLZeSP1l6a55DZfWjvc+68dCndXqQ=; b=Wyb6sq3kGnavroKXefLZtY3ne3pC33fmnw0nBkocC7Ld9q2HePP3ulSs0iPaBcuVp/ t8A0AaPo1EGLeqhZTHWa9LdS2+QB5NVZcxKHjaA9XKmKsXLpccMR71QJ+G2KqdHwkyZJ g3UpGbK8qvwgvIxPl3CC4vornwQuwUsO1BZS3BQfUZX+fgy+nML/Z2w3XBL1DBrEuwYz /8dhFI64rB1v8jdk0JZcKc/NdasrpakHXJzEwbCiv6UL6HVgDPoDa6ZXTk33mCOQ7Hzf j7MwL/vXNOjmZr6GaJvk7YLfHlNhoF36w4ZbK/rX5OVAPKmjgu7T7meNpTLi8KzlR0Yx eWwA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdDhj61QARWo2PAdHDchhdxSo1g1Dny7pFNEv3SDXGe4oX0fwEg eWGzinPgvBoAp+L8EFOwyTNkQ47yZl4BNi7QIPE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosdMrdxX74ih1LO2y5xe3J51LmbU15E013RwLlSLkEaWeiPp0cdSOC+LL2hqZukzNQgwSb1GITLUqVlYW7BGPU= X-Received: by 10.28.61.68 with SMTP id k65mr5910889wma.147.1516316025695; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.74.139 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.28.74.139 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:53:44 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: fk42DQWR7tCh_W12PShpKDDS0YU Message-ID: To: Tony Li Cc: Randy Bush , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" , Lsvr@ietf.org, Gaurav Dawra , victor@jvknet.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b2d021435be056314d6c5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 22:53:50 -0000 --001a114b2d021435be056314d6c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Tony, There are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when executed concurrently with "standard" bgp. The answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as otherwise it will not sell ;) --- Outside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working groups for both rift and bgp-spf based on their own judgements. In Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that result in creation of two new wg is unknown. Is this how now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and without even single document spelling out what is wrong with current protocols ? Cheers, R On Jan 18, 2018 23:33, "Tony Li" wrote: > > > > > >> As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to more > >> DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea of > >> running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179). > > > > i'm feeling slow todsy. is this a hint that, for example, spf might use > > a diff port? > > > And how would that help? > > Tony > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > --001a114b2d021435be056314d6c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tony,

There = are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when executed concurr= ently with "standard" bgp.

The answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it b= gp as otherwise it will not sell ;)

---

Outside = of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working groups for both rift and= bgp-spf based on their own judgements.

In Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How= did that result in creation of two new wg is unknown.

Is this how now IETF working groups get form= ed ? Behind the scene and without even single document spelling out what is= wrong with current protocols ?

Cheers,
R



On Jan 18, 2018 23:33, "Tony Li" <tony1athome@gmail.com> wrote:


>
>> As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to mo= re
>> DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea= of
>> running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179).
>
> i'm feeling slow todsy.=C2=A0 is this a hint that, for example, sp= f might use
> a diff port?


And how would that help?

Tony

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--001a114b2d021435be056314d6c5-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 15:00:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18801129C6E for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:00:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ET1hNy_8mgkk for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F1AB126CBF for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ecJAs-0002gD-AQ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:00:46 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:00:45 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Lsvr@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:00:49 -0000 > There are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when executed > concurrently with "standard" bgp. > > The answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as > otherwise it will not sell ;) call it anything you want. this does not clarify, at least for this confused geek, how route selection is done given two ribs randy From nobody Thu Jan 18 15:02:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652B9129C6F for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:02:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BHzA1AiA_Ra3 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F694129C59 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.226]) by resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id cJC9ewYqco9CBcJCPecwSN; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:02:21 +0000 Received: from [172.22.228.216] ([162.210.130.3]) by resomta-po-02v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id cJA9eIVkMe2qecJACeOyDg; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:00:19 +0000 From: Tony Li Message-Id: <42C11665-5A01-4473-A9B3-0FE1F7B0D201@tony.li> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_82B4F48D-8924-4BEF-BD37-7FDE0BA68678" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:00:00 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Randy Bush , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" , Lsvr@ietf.org, Gaurav Dawra , victor@jvknet.com To: Robert Raszuk References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCJKwOvrmeTZ0/4txbsFkIB4sptJUwOyvmEzMPqtynzZcVomTmTFA6rY/t7/8K6ou6PR8BQrQ5NZo6xanEPWudBIEyyPEI2iKXsDsiOPEcr/Bh+MBZ5Y ERIhXX4CO3PHOAMJWp3lfahUgJS13hEH0/zzie+Y78NmMQumvwdMGSG9hhtxSYouL2S2xozE9BdX9XwuclLBt/cRVcLeBAE/CE7o+WGlYd7IkTIyEds1R3Xt b7wgvVAO5+XlXEMO05MHnzgD1Rrq7L4NfZ3SvQ/9fQ+m/sxYQX/jfoI9j5leIdX4ypFQD79O/xPaIG89/bhysg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:02:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_82B4F48D-8924-4BEF-BD37-7FDE0BA68678 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Robert, > There are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when = executed concurrently with "standard" bgp. >=20 > The answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as = otherwise it will not sell ;) And I believe that=E2=80=99s why there=E2=80=99s already an AFI/SAFI = mechanism incorporated: to de-multiplex information with alternate = semantics. Therefore, we do not need another mechanism. > Outside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working groups for = both rift and bgp-spf based on their own judgements. >=20 > In Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that = result in creation of two new wg is unknown. >=20 > Is this how now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and = without even single document spelling out what is wrong with current = protocols ? The creation of WGs has always been at the discretion of the Area = Directors. Please see RFC 2418. This RFC does NOT use the word = =E2=80=98rationale=E2=80=99. Tony --Apple-Mail=_82B4F48D-8924-4BEF-BD37-7FDE0BA68678 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Robert,

There = are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when executed = concurrently with "standard" bgp.
The = answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as = otherwise it will not sell ;)


And I believe that=E2=80=99= s why there=E2=80=99s already an AFI/SAFI mechanism incorporated: to = de-multiplex information with alternate semantics. Therefore, we do not = need another mechanism.


Outside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working = groups for both rift and bgp-spf based on their own = judgements.

In = Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that result = in creation of two new wg is unknown.
Is this = how now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and without = even single document spelling out what is wrong with current protocols = ?


The creation of WGs has always been at the = discretion of the Area Directors.  Please see RFC 2418.  This = RFC does NOT use the word =E2=80=98rationale=E2=80=99.

Tony


= --Apple-Mail=_82B4F48D-8924-4BEF-BD37-7FDE0BA68678-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 15:12:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DB3126C3D for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:12:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nuagenetworks-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p6BAjSLP831p for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9D6812D7E5 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id e144so16932676oib.4 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:12:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nuagenetworks-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g9JmUZq8BmeUNSao1RP+CVhselQMBrQgTKaKuCI6qi4=; b=sUCIrzyb7JGNsNcO8yVmCpGvFiD1FA4eb9xPJsd1W4EmBYOvV8aJC+HD95oAingPsX Jfg30pInzL/oNByjqif8DRHB3L37GCFD3IyCiCW0XRKkzlLqtFtRIOwtFFymVpBScpUC iiq6l8vtqpVJIQ1cnbZi88SujqIM2Aow324CMEu52hq2eh9XBnJiTbjDnvbtEw3p1bRX WZah511+FLuw2EOuW11qKxo46ngza5PkrDFwXTMZjxsDDeRsnnM4Jcd1csKvvLWj7K/Q HDuzP2P/7YnbIFLvG5tg3d9ID7+jHw/KX18k7cLIdbjF8LrKOwHNTEpK6HUMXXcATb+r ja6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g9JmUZq8BmeUNSao1RP+CVhselQMBrQgTKaKuCI6qi4=; b=RKsy6+zfS3GNgLVDZYE/WFi+km5NN5+RURKD8RYlET+TNnWhD2eZs+QaWHHcz1Djvi JCLZ/yxfBTIT0WvZbfix0iuTDwxFiXtRgjR9Stq9E9PR/Lgs384J0pfafVZCBXQCX5sp LuqkgO4uaAYLqfJ0MOkgiAlgsgcjWmp69vJEMkguDB6+rOduzurHkOwl7xNpQGKanHlE gnlG9f7JiLTq++oV9dZ4/RkXxSLF1zOi7m10b26YwazbDkpduYJ7+tHUa2AjFDMfpom+ lWEUP0R6G17UQVkDrRvk/Ja9jyMED+R/O2xV2KabruEHBwb3XnzKAsySOQNR1ttGSxV8 0ubg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdVAvTdmrJgaKqzfsM+yjmg1k+3dAi+APegLeS5BAlprQMlxC0T 4X3vRF8AxVCMjVPai2ZYCu+2ejrBLpIyTMr82np7jw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBou5J33pI74rfZWOmWllY14fi67+2sSvA58j3p8E1Le+W8W6AxuNSDkH3m3eaS92XRnGRCmzi48AWOAIIIA5vZs= X-Received: by 10.202.181.87 with SMTP id e84mr4215976oif.112.1516317169996; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:12:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.74.151.176 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:12:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> From: Nabeel Cocker Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 16:12:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: victor@jvknet.com, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com Cc: Randy Bush , Lsvr@ietf.org, Gaurav Dawra , Tony Li Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ce2e448f0410563151a4a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:12:53 -0000 --001a113ce2e448f0410563151a4a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Victor, Gunter, I am in agreement with the charter for LSVR. thanks Nabeel [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most welcome. WG page is to be setup soon. Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR charter is appreciated ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing plane. In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encoding. For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can be utilized to make routing decisions. - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter - Target Status: Informational - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards Track - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track LSVR Milestones: - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > --001a113ce2e448f0410563151a4a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Victor, Gunter,
I am in agreement with the charter for LSVR.
thanks
<= /pre>
Nab=
eel



[Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, howev=
er "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists=
 have been added as the concepts originated in those working groups]

Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG ch=
arter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing).
Here is what we have so far.  Comments and improvements would be most welco=
me.=20

WG page is to be setup soon.
Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr

Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc)  on the draft LSVR charter is =
appreciated=20


***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 *****
=C2=A0
Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing=C2=A0
=C2=A0
The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to develop =
and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of link-stat=
e and path-vector routing mechanisms.=C2=A0 The LSVR WG will utilize existi=
ng the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (=
RFC4271). Additionally, the=C2=A0BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined in=
 RFC7752 are utilized=C2=A0to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing in=
formation distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data struct=
ure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor informati=
on, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined for contro=
l plane function and policy-based routing decisions.
=C2=A0
The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single da=
tacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a s=
ingle distribution domain.=C2=A0 Routing protocol functionality defined by =
LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing =
plane.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on st=
andardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs)=
, and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing Dijk=
stra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encodin=
g.
=C2=A0
For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until further =
specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter.
=C2=A0
- Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure (dat=
a set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor informat=
ion, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can be uti=
lized to make routing decisions.
- LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating LSV=
R nodes in a single administrative domain.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents:
=C2=A0
- Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter - T=
arget Status: Informational
- Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra SPF =
route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol baseline=
 functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards Track=
 (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf)
- Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficie=
ntly reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to incl=
ude privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards Track
- Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track
=C2=A0
LSVR Milestones:
=C2=A0
- Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019
- LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019
- LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019
- YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019

=

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr

--001a113ce2e448f0410563151a4a-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 15:15:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DEA129C6E for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:15:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A3SVuQ5RteYN for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80BC312D77D for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 141so89942wme.3 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:15:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=jMC2GzY0QlB7TVGS1Jdo/5/EvEnCw3vFI0BnQ8+ClNA=; b=R3AGc1QdXxRAvlMNOxXCl/evIxIpzZErEx3QeJn9JjT4+g3+vqfbMEJfVmiHGEGJS8 HFgPIs9PQVybWiMB0jzmpBf+rAK71N9Miyw2WLn4CnztCu02+PLLQZM36LBd7VsOKp9S FhK3JfXM3xyOjygWexNGDYISNfU8usBY3JB7BQruDhUqzLSmvTQHioJerIFgyEfD+SP5 bEe8orgeXI2yRklzFJnBytYBqZv5SMFZXyKFa752p7q9XG/eJ80Oak2J2bsFTG5T4/vM JLqw8+JNWguVz/OTC4GuQGSDHRlKe6ZKdOHjfCk/ST7sFiVggW4n9pEaFtPZjOPEuf/F j3pA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jMC2GzY0QlB7TVGS1Jdo/5/EvEnCw3vFI0BnQ8+ClNA=; b=Lsn7S+zNXNKlkVkGoRumLuEzvAf+1KHLCPpwlPUQ7n8Q56sxhz8nIOSWE3E2VMK1Vj q8nSlhjCCRDYidWfTxqdxQz/nQ3j3Bb3lLnd0Yl2F8At3baQJ/GslxY5tpDmAyRAtNAA EC2zb2KF+3HreysH0srvThzE630wm/DcZf32fabVuh9Y12ns4UO7dgM47VKlyjfEjABG GaCP9WQvCDswzg4T2WSPori/RLMLaXXoFOFFXAbj8yBYKktB6dqqnTYrrRU1ubI7p5R7 P1bCINFLP6gZvYyYjrk7qAvS261wI04XUZ+21L+9oXwU9LK0jNKoWLpUsIVD1k44eDxr 6Kcw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyte1Js0BXpeJWoMHcKUOq33zz53A5/yNDfINAnGZz0FUvenrYCZF Q14Bgp6XXXFgxcbZtm0Dkj3uMHH5K9hXTHMeknE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotqZqB1Nv47L+SCgrc1waQusus+xaTS60VsGO9eOJZfVuefK3H55nXGUF7WdyBp20ncnQEQoKN8pQqthTyUqvE= X-Received: by 10.28.88.129 with SMTP id m123mr2340876wmb.64.1516317325880; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:15:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.74.139 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:15:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.28.74.139 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:15:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <42C11665-5A01-4473-A9B3-0FE1F7B0D201@tony.li> References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> <42C11665-5A01-4473-A9B3-0FE1F7B0D201@tony.li> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 00:15:25 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: r86crbkL9IaGq4b05jZuPF6TNrY Message-ID: To: Tony Li Cc: Randy Bush , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" , Lsvr@ietf.org, Gaurav Dawra , victor@jvknet.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114416bc9372800563152384" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:15:38 -0000 --001a114416bc9372800563152384 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well to the best of my understanding each AFI/SAFI as defined today carries different address class. With spf bgp we have a bit of a conflict as safi 1/1 or 2/1 may carry the exact same prefix as new fancy bgp spf. Clearly the authors of the latter need to differentiate how new SAFI is going to interwork with existing eBGP in any hypothetical deployment. - - - Completely agreed on "rationale" part as far as forming WG. I was more commenting on misleading community by setting up non wg forming bof just to see it has suddenly resulted in forming two working groups. I am wishing them all the best ! R. On Jan 19, 2018 00:02, "Tony Li" wrote: Robert, There are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when executed concurrently with "standard" bgp. The answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as otherwise it will not sell ;) And I believe that=E2=80=99s why there=E2=80=99s already an AFI/SAFI mechan= ism incorporated: to de-multiplex information with alternate semantics. Therefore, we do not need another mechanism. Outside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working groups for both rift and bgp-spf based on their own judgements. In Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that result in creation of two new wg is unknown. Is this how now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and without even single document spelling out what is wrong with current protocols ? The creation of WGs has always been at the discretion of the Area Directors. Please see RFC 2418. This RFC does NOT use the word =E2=80=98rationale=E2=80=99. Tony --001a114416bc9372800563152384 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well to the best of my understanding each AFI/SAFI as def= ined today carries different address class.=C2=A0

With spf bgp we have a bit of a conflict as safi 1/1 or= 2/1 may carry the exact same prefix as new fancy bgp spf.

Clearly the authors of the latter need t= o differentiate how new SAFI is going to interwork with existing eBGP in an= y hypothetical deployment.

- - -

Completely agre= ed on "rationale" part as far as forming WG. I was more commentin= g on misleading community by setting up non wg forming bof just to see it h= as suddenly resulted in forming two working groups.
=
I am wishing them all the best !

R.

<= br>

O= n Jan 19, 2018 00:02, "Tony Li" <tony.li@tony.li> wrote:


Robert,

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
There are some questions on how bgp spf would= select routes when executed concurrently with "standard" bgp.

The answer by some is to run it= in parallel and just call it bgp as otherwise it will not sell ;)


And I believe that= =E2=80=99s why there=E2=80=99s already an AFI/SAFI mechanism incorporated: = to de-multiplex information with alternate semantics. Therefore, we do not = need another mechanism.


=
Outside of all of this Alia and Alva= ro are setting working groups for both rift and bgp-spf based on their own = judgements.

In Singapore we had a = non wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that result in creation of two ne= w wg is unknown.

Is this how now I= ETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and without even single do= cument spelling out what is wrong with current protocols ?


The creation of WGs has always been a= t the discretion of the Area Directors.=C2=A0 Please see RFC 2418.=C2=A0 Th= is RFC does NOT use the word =E2=80=98rationale=E2=80=99.

Tony


=

--001a114416bc9372800563152384-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 15:28:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6BB812D77C for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lq-SHAvkki4e for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22d.google.com (mail-oi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88A21120713 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id y141so16963612oia.0 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:28:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZhLzeEzR6IrcD9fGt/jA0XdFqfAhFINPV5H9wDyLeoc=; b=GCGoNVbv98deP31o2kohJAj70tQo6bv8FsGbmxKaNh7Gbqmm4i5e3FBt9nJBZCpLeE lv/na7QPaTPTTLz7D63x/aqOWYWp2xHMZ1gMoLrVoPccr7ZASsmrHwJ4ujs5c7YlOWeY 9XcUean8QODhTBle4jzo7FfcSUOHYFRiwjFuF46Lcd9uoVhIXueeIQJejgqeYgFX8JUg zbY5ce0OjYWqa+W/D7dcPV61mGvIh5KzHzfbzyKtliBcW2tD0PrboHiaUUEbHRhELa1z dizePFInPa+zlt7iDeBsMEKRJ8UsYxeoVmUee6zyi8GbUbL3E4P6HQJLcxcjaj/Jt9LF RN9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZhLzeEzR6IrcD9fGt/jA0XdFqfAhFINPV5H9wDyLeoc=; b=of4dRNrGPUOPpBnmwcU8/w961YPzRV8QtYe0KJYdSzuHq90/GJssAdklbDfbSOmSCz LbnkHY0Li7tFbu5BmjW2Hw/bSUfmLGeeUhbyqFIYTrQt496OFHNDAVzoMObaP5b95FGp NO5Trxy192G+0g5nPeeNUrwdUEMZIRrW/lhU8nCs2tejQTc9r4z+ZPGdR9yi0EALBZft lB1HPQ32epGsu2ub1w8esMxm89/wn68lfJZYla7wG5pxWR91ZTQ0QdNKytDN7eMEF4v6 t3bSFTex2l/lJuUtJtuKZj3hXgJUGx8DgR86DBSV/8Ivmw2bJcXFiTvscY1APXY/EicZ aQVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdoi2HLy/r6zmcDmWAw1hDBvggyHqJM1zteMrOaJ9BC56M/JHn6 9xZ3ESOt42seEavIbznXxLNc8p2d/8/hrQYCGUo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouqD2NP/pfNNRIHTd2mmQTfPvyWw3Bid0xSmsJF+EipOm/+wyn116wewbuXBnpAXQ3ASlvGm6BLSihEnvCfAoo= X-Received: by 10.202.215.6 with SMTP id o6mr4085287oig.108.1516318080706; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:28:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.67.47 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:28:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> From: Alia Atlas Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:28:00 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Tony Li , Randy Bush , victor@jvknet.com, Lsvr@ietf.org, Gaurav Dawra , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d38ae912dd205631550ac" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:28:04 -0000 --001a113d38ae912dd205631550ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Robert, Just to clarify, Alvaro is the sponsoring AD. Since I am a co-author on RIFT, I am interacting as a contributor. Regards, Alia On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Tony, > > There are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when executed > concurrently with "standard" bgp. > > The answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as > otherwise it will not sell ;) > > --- > > Outside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working groups for both > rift and bgp-spf based on their own judgements. > > In Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that > result in creation of two new wg is unknown. > > Is this how now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and > without even single document spelling out what is wrong with current > protocols ? > > Cheers, > R > > > > On Jan 18, 2018 23:33, "Tony Li" wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to more >> >> DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea of >> >> running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179). >> > >> > i'm feeling slow todsy. is this a hint that, for example, spf might use >> > a diff port? >> >> >> And how would that help? >> >> Tony >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsvr mailing list >> Lsvr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >> > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > --001a113d38ae912dd205631550ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robert,

Just to clarify, Alvaro is the = sponsoring AD.
Since I am a co-author on RIFT, I am interacting a= s a contributor.

Regards,
Alia

On Thu, Jan 18,= 2018 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Tony,
<= br>
There are some questions on how bgp spf would se= lect routes when executed concurrently with "standard" bgp.
=

The answer by some is to run = it in parallel and just call it bgp as otherwise it will not sell ;)
<= div dir=3D"auto">
---
Outside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting= working groups for both rift and bgp-spf based on their own judgements.

In Singapore we had a non = wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that result in creation of two new wg= is unknown.

Is this how= now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and without even sin= gle document spelling out what is wrong with current protocols ?

Cheers,
R



On Jan 18, 2018 23:33, "Tony Li" <tony1athome@gmail.com> = wrote:


>
>> As we adopt the charter and in future adapt to align further to mo= re
>> DC/Scale requirements, we may want to consider and explore an idea= of
>> running BGP over multiple ports(besides 179).
>
> i'm feeling slow todsy.=C2=A0 is this a hint that, for example, sp= f might use
> a diff port?


And how would that help?

Tony

_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr

_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr


--001a113d38ae912dd205631550ac-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 15:32:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61EE8120713 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:32:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vxuzrGtBbPsf for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x230.google.com (mail-oi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8883212D77C for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:32:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x230.google.com with SMTP id t16so16916075oif.10 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:32:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X28LXaZIuiZXVgRnSIhDu/6b+PeI4ZovsPmuRysAghs=; b=nJx2urNsyHJSI+1VH4AQSj5qYFsvRrki9+PVFuHokCL9SyWgf80ATAAoqhURdIfrhA Dl6K1HOJjd55WUijjrO3K3gcF5BtIhSagDlJw7yMNMGhmgOaOY7yLSAP2bnjgL9pYNgf zVTycN4/nIEwQ9edcy6AWAH6Gztlye7cbepET9Gt/oCCG0aSw0myqBeQD8rSsL4bTnFQ zSkdAkmt7Xb41Eg6UCAWx7KQsg99KbYfdw3Dw05dWZNKk1sEllhC9LEvfIBjmr2Z7o62 WajBmlc2hJuuykYmr+aa7ZGQtXcMk+zzsnAsjMeUSVtyVOqbfmsiHBJVEPc01pcU4dcT GlEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X28LXaZIuiZXVgRnSIhDu/6b+PeI4ZovsPmuRysAghs=; b=sKTiVAtBd0L9wCrmhppeN0ksTCy/pJradwjzzfP8e4S85fFxXUsRP2Gmbls9aA7kwP /sm68jRdSguTnjLFOofZvV7Fh6NJg10USh0updlXGg5PX19xqB1Y9wm9qrHed6DOecdn Fz9nZxFfPeC5r8xprH888FaYdwhEtN82/VZJaVAUzWdWoyDcquLz6Vh0UDujy6y7QGSY Qh5y2rW2hzKohOaWodGORpu6XIriyTiC8Ns/3+j9rQFHJBO6T64DcgyrZPcMR7hQfEJP YuAbDqnylb8PPtzIxnCYgGzuDCLw2OCTuLNoGYXQlSzWFHNI0tD2yjUKEuwXGONpPTMJ l3+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytc5RrZCDTrWLkbjlbzKJb/V0W8QqShAvPXwFceYKnz9MOGBUz09 PLgd7kOFsP1MMjN1jYRqtrDXinzdxrgchzzVDU4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouRwkHJ2amh+6kXlQDqs6+HhU4LPgmNFFtjmXvnPKFzasfa9i9TKSz3+r4Cf+VBszNqS4xx0nKMUQTH5xT1XRU= X-Received: by 10.202.48.76 with SMTP id w73mr3956009oiw.185.1516318323809; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:32:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.67.47 with HTTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:32:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> <42C11665-5A01-4473-A9B3-0FE1F7B0D201@tony.li> From: Alia Atlas Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 18:32:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Tony Li , Randy Bush , victor@jvknet.com, Lsvr@ietf.org, Gaurav Dawra , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113cdf4c0ea45d0563155fb7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:32:07 -0000 --001a113cdf4c0ea45d0563155fb7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Well to the best of my understanding each AFI/SAFI as defined today > carries different address class. > > With spf bgp we have a bit of a conflict as safi 1/1 or 2/1 may carry the > exact same prefix as new fancy bgp spf. > > Clearly the authors of the latter need to differentiate how new SAFI is > going to interwork with existing eBGP in any hypothetical deployment. > > - - - > > Completely agreed on "rationale" part as far as forming WG. I was more > commenting on misleading community by setting up non wg forming bof just = to > see it has suddenly resulted in forming two working groups. > To clarify, the IESG has been having more non-wg forming BoFs which doesn't actually judge whether a WG will form. At a WG forming BoF, the conversation is frequently around the charter and whether it has captured the work items and scope appropriately. At a non-WG forming BoF, conversation is more around the technical problem and possible solutions. I don't recall off-hand whether bier or babel had WG-forming BoFs. This is all part of trying to get new work moving along more quickly (see IETF relevance). Regards, Alia > I am wishing them all the best ! > > R. > > > > On Jan 19, 2018 00:02, "Tony Li" wrote: > > > > Robert, > > There are some questions on how bgp spf would select routes when executed > concurrently with "standard" bgp. > > The answer by some is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as > otherwise it will not sell ;) > > > > And I believe that=E2=80=99s why there=E2=80=99s already an AFI/SAFI mech= anism > incorporated: to de-multiplex information with alternate semantics. > Therefore, we do not need another mechanism. > > > Outside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working groups for bot= h > rift and bgp-spf based on their own judgements. > > In Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How did that > result in creation of two new wg is unknown. > > Is this how now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind the scene and > without even single document spelling out what is wrong with current > protocols ? > > > > The creation of WGs has always been at the discretion of the Area > Directors. Please see RFC 2418. This RFC does NOT use the word > =E2=80=98rationale=E2=80=99. > > Tony > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > --001a113cdf4c0ea45d0563155fb7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&= gt; wrote:
Well = to the best of my understanding each AFI/SAFI as defined today carries diff= erent address class.=C2=A0

Wit= h spf bgp we have a bit of a conflict as safi 1/1 or 2/1 may carry the exac= t same prefix as new fancy bgp spf.

Clearly the authors of the latter need to differentiate how new= SAFI is going to interwork with existing eBGP in any hypothetical deployme= nt.

- - -

Completely agreed on "rationale&= quot; part as far as forming WG. I was more commenting on misleading commun= ity by setting up non wg forming bof just to see it has suddenly resulted i= n forming two working groups.

T= o clarify, the IESG has been having more non-wg forming BoFs which doesn= 9;t actually judge whether a WG will form.=C2=A0 At a WG forming BoF, the c= onversation is frequently around the charter and whether it has captured th= e work items and scope appropriately.=C2=A0 At a non-WG forming BoF, conver= sation is more around the technical problem and possible solutions.=C2=A0 I= don't recall off-hand whether bier or babel had WG-forming BoFs.
=

This is all part of trying to get new work moving along= more quickly (see IETF relevance).

Regards,
=
Alia
=C2=A0
I am wishing them all the b= est !

R.
<= div dir=3D"auto">


=
On Jan 19, 2018 00:02, "Tony Li" <<= a href=3D"mailto:tony.li@tony.li" target=3D"_blank">tony.li@tony.li>= wrote:


Robert,

There are some questions on how = bgp spf would select routes when executed concurrently with "standard&= quot; bgp.

The answer by some= is to run it in parallel and just call it bgp as otherwise it will not sel= l ;)


And I= believe that=E2=80=99s why there=E2=80=99s already an AFI/SAFI mechanism i= ncorporated: to de-multiplex information with alternate semantics. Therefor= e, we do not need another mechanism.


Ou= tside of all of this Alia and Alvaro are setting working groups for both ri= ft and bgp-spf based on their own judgements.

=
In Singapore we had a non wg forming bof on dc routing. How di= d that result in creation of two new wg is unknown.

<= /div>
Is this how now IETF working groups get formed ? Behind t= he scene and without even single document spelling out what is wrong with c= urrent protocols ?


Th= e creation of WGs has always been at the discretion of the Area Directors.= =C2=A0 Please see RFC 2418.=C2=A0 This RFC does NOT use the word =E2=80=98r= ationale=E2=80=99.

Tony




_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr


--001a113cdf4c0ea45d0563155fb7-- From nobody Thu Jan 18 15:33:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A7F120713 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kBEM2JXZ_eU8 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x234.google.com (mail-oi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CC5F12D77C for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id n81so16942495oig.8 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lUcAxVsSeJ8b0Ih8qd82O/yae0WQCm2xcyme8F5Rq0U=; b=oAZnGYqw5pqVcVgqfOKYMwizyajGLpp9AkXfjWo64GhUWzEcL33Q8U1iarfh+G++Yt 29RBuIFRgh65LF05CnKA7m5RHaKRGV8ea6p5nHDJLlg7G7ik8K7bYhymjt6TNkbzbieH WuCRsktYIy7OX4E9FsbG0o6XpsV29+zPqK40UiiO8kNs6IVjUaJxpQYjySkXfNZBN6Py XVQR5w3sB/ursOHXmLNjLsmC46S6mCMRK4m4WevOyW2Qo9kQ1ffCmEyXI9T8jkjjtHEy wbQC8S5SrM6GtS0oerP9GcOQi3qN0yDoRZ5Ze42iRg5XwFIwM5pvNIZOwfsCafB4O9Mq EUdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lUcAxVsSeJ8b0Ih8qd82O/yae0WQCm2xcyme8F5Rq0U=; b=YJsg04AL/nMObkXiJZnGXjtTvBAN3Z8nwc8BVQnIb6tTZRNbusBFvH0HaImTUP5lUL JDyWf/v/+LYNCp4BVuim15IPLm19i4vJ2OG2kMhg6Hgaxe2FfhQ6qoI3CbwkdWasFTop aHxFQJHEOaF81IkBrjuw+cX0Z1aNctKtesc+q40qE4zYvJu5XKFsMECGnyEd6MGJXEhh GN4IBO+Gk3wXMRzK8q0As+DVWvjhk88I4ncIX/QZXgt+pHdIRpneRgFBS5FkU9yhZ8eT ESIVjcDl33P5NzvP+UhV0J6PAJaqT42fPRK2E73loWeGqPuJLhP3wKmFxMYe6fzEbWym 0Itw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdFEO4a8qmHzUVR2jCpnZ8QxWQgUIP9TlrCHOfkBMX4plhF9BxE xYZXD/NgHKi3cD3X5sje9V+8Ta6Nmpe3bNX5Mp8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotGejVxRTgaS11IGT/P0jnUbZP3bL7SRz5M6a5npYpdAaaiCYhOvcZV4b5pm4Y5JDsGyrh8X8Md3BVoX07Ua6I= X-Received: by 10.202.72.69 with SMTP id v66mr3841350oia.214.1516318399844; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:19 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <71703812-2113-40A1-B299-251B9961E3A4@gmail.com> <42C11665-5A01-4473-A9B3-0FE1F7B0D201@tony.li> X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 15:33:19 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk , Tony Li Cc: Randy Bush , Gaurav Dawra , lsvr@ietf.org, victor@jvknet.com, "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1134fe5896d6bb05631563b6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2018 23:33:23 -0000 --001a1134fe5896d6bb05631563b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On January 18, 2018 at 6:15:41 PM, Robert Raszuk (robert@raszuk.net) wrote: Robert: Completely agreed on "rationale" part as far as forming WG. I was more commenting on misleading community by setting up non wg forming bof just to see it has suddenly resulted in forming two working groups. It looks like we have different memories of what happened at the dcrouting BOF [1]. Yes, it was tagged as non-WG-forming because the intent was not to discuss a charter for what a dcrouting WG would do, but to discuss potential work (rift and lsvr) and figure out whether there was interest in working on them. From where I stand, the intent was clear. Note also that a BOF is not needed to form a WG [rfc2418]. Thanks! Alvaro. [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/minutes-100-dcrouting/ --001a1134fe5896d6bb05631563b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On January 18,= 2018 at 6:15:41 PM, Robert Raszuk (ro= bert@raszuk.net) wrote:

=
Robert:

Completely agreed on "rationale&quo= t; part as far as forming WG. I was more commenting on misleading community= by setting up non wg forming bof just to see it has suddenly resulted in f= orming two working groups.

<= font face=3D"Helvetica">It looks like we have different memories of what ha= ppened at the dcrouting BOF [1].=C2=A0 Yes, it was tagged as non-WG-forming= because the intent was not to discuss a charter for what a dcrouting WG wo= uld do, but to discuss potential work (rift and lsvr) and figure out whethe= r there was interest in working on them.=C2=A0 From where I stand, the inte= nt was clear.

Note also that a BOF is= not needed to form a WG [rfc2418].

T= hanks!

Alvaro.

--001a1134fe5896d6bb05631563b6-- From bhavpar9@gmail.com Sun Jan 21 18:27:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5D1127286 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:27:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 227cdyed4E4f for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8F6F1200F1 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id 143so13448199wma.5 for ; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:27:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SyM3VsNn8eOYi6pjyS+czbFS9WqSd1ZsSWwGZytrdvI=; b=F4fAWfTa0gXHcLY16ziIAD/CDUkvLIsrrEeREjXEdpq36GC0IE2akEVXuKY++UvVuu Dmvr736sXq7BI/6H0REb+nTpCIHbM7CrNJBObrA+fepQeDSleXALq5gBhcLSmDzKxjnS bpMM/KgUSKUA+mC5mcQGI1FY41apMQy6lBMyt8zJIm2IJ1rs1jMLGyqCSEk9bXOEi3UJ +qM9ytrvqVcHReHIqj1Y7F3deerRuO1BgD9pgLrD/Iz1CMYh8D6dR37uxk6YXK/SdMDy m/jOFLv/G/1WaJEOoPWl13CfbF/IB9DchsSJUznX1w9cuIcFJ6qHatn7hTAW8RgL6iCR UdKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SyM3VsNn8eOYi6pjyS+czbFS9WqSd1ZsSWwGZytrdvI=; b=iCmWllvNRUunI+eXyntSZJFQVDc/nagX26+CKrwWFH7uI3A3EskUi2YHm8DBBMccjj i0oDcj6gyG3Q+y9+qqF7WuanrqffDz2J3Kh/s54f4DF7lWUVEZ9shnrQ2RveDT1QZ6w6 l8m9lRUz1yNDciwm/8mmoi/9Lgz65Q5SUwr8/4vcZMx5LEa9+IxRfC2cgJJ3QwBtr3Zc QgMHhgrUxRy5xC52iM+Uy2UjjDzlqDbwjPi+RnsP3zO1luA2jpM7hDcHELUUjI3YI4in 2XfWtbWZB5L5Jjv8tusLwJA4gdn703dnAicJ11guvuc8F8orFLJXU1DUI5fG17ISN54d VAeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyteqEz3RvFZVLRRNfvO6IDNRmfCqUdEZAkUFiqfAr3tEzs6kmg3k tgX0O/uExypDS2DmG/2arLFbnB6SQKM3YNgUN2QByA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224zs0qHvHQHiVxVtcJuBcRYgjgPJ2E3wO2+OwWIVqBiLMBSgJq8fa+Y9Rktkwwc7QUZyOG36mM8JovoFYOIKVg= X-Received: by 10.28.158.208 with SMTP id h199mr3799732wme.17.1516588054115; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:27:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.9.212 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:27:33 -0800 (PST) From: Bhav Par Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2018 18:27:33 -0800 Message-ID: To: lsvr@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114b33463c7b9f0563542c98" Archived-At: Subject: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 03:51:33 -0000 --001a114b33463c7b9f0563542c98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +1 on Support for below charter, looking forward to contributing regards, Bhavani Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Pushpasis Sarkar Thu, 18 January 2018 17:22 UTCShow header Hi All, I went through the charter details, and it seems to be in a quite good state to get things started. Hoping we can accommodate some changes here and there (if at all needed). Looking forward to contributing more on this soon. Thanks and regards, -Pushpasis > On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. > > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > charter is appreciated > > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing > plane. > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI > encoding. > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > charter. > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can > be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > Track > LSVR Milestones: > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > _______________________________________________ Lsvr References: - Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Victor Kuarsingh ; - --001a114b33463c7b9f0563542c98 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


+1 on Support for below charter, lookin= g forward to contributing

regards,
Bhava= ni


Re: [Lsvr] Ki= cking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion

Pushpasis Sarkar &= lt;pushpasis.ietf@gmail.com= >=C2=A0Thu, 18 January 2018 17:22 UTCShow header

Hi All,

I went through the charter details, and it seems to be in a quite good
state to get things started. Hoping we can accommodate some changes
here and there (if at all needed).

Looking forward to contributing more on this soon.

Thanks and regards,

-Pushpasis


> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote:
>
> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on
> lsv=
r@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrout=
ing" email lists have
> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups]
>
> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible =
WG
> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing).
> Here is what we have so far.  Comments and improvements would be most
> welcome.
>
> WG page is to be setup soon.
> Subscription to LSVR mailing list:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/l=
svr
>
> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc)  on the draft LSVR
> charter is appreciated
>
>
> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 *****
>   Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing
>   The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to
> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination=
 of
> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.  The LSVR WG will utili=
ze
> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling f=
rom
> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms def=
ined
> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing
> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data
> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbo=
r
> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defi=
ned
> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions.
>   The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a
> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functional=
ity
> within a single distribution domain.  Routing protocol functionality d=
efined
> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay =
routing
> plane.
>   In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focu=
s
> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vect=
ors
> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing ex=
isting
> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRL=
I
> encoding.
>   For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until
> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this
> charter.
>   - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structu=
re
> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor
> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes th=
at can
> be utilized to make routing decisions.
> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participatin=
g
> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain.
>      The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents:
>   - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the
> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational
> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra
> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol
> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target:
> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf)
> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to
> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with
> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target:
> Standards Track
> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards
> Track
>   LSVR Milestones:
>   - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019
> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019
> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019
> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtgwg mailing list
> rt=
gwg@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
rtgwg
>

_______________________________________________
Lsvr

References:

   - Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter
   discussion
   <https:=
//mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsvr/ejhm_8H4TD94810i-_QC6yI1bxM>
   Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com>;

--001a114b33463c7b9f0563542c98-- From eneerajm@gmail.com Mon Jan 22 10:50:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0920A12AF83 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:50:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T3J3VKc9U1Js for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:50:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22c.google.com (mail-oi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF275124D37 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id t78so2207237oih.4 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:50:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LO8/MDTHBnbmV3I6B57IfkZniRBaPupQ8FLXWIFn6l0=; b=p7Dudz+RntJibwu8UY/UxO6vw/7WD0aV+qee9MxoGga6sTGKteEcmFafEv0VtDvPAf PsHesJ98iMgWa8aNYV4pTWp+SU8lI/lT4/Ug5Dxffd4FTPr6Svijd5+36Jyzt9muKbws WYk4glCPN/HAI356RpbSLBQS2FhO5w34Hq+ibT6LW41vzhQxdQSn6qHVSY8rudvhpspn w4W268l3UdMJtw5UviNNnaCHjWuVtsuzu6VXkjb7xLnbNnr1+zFgcETcJwnONpP9U8oO VS20hY/AyohJG9MsFuaT6LP1tsTz6iXdiGkA+fjiJiLG2SmWtTGo2GuYs8p27K/FITzk u1EQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=LO8/MDTHBnbmV3I6B57IfkZniRBaPupQ8FLXWIFn6l0=; b=mMFtLRhz1h/TiI/5bG9NBEtw7oTEokkO+KJSJW1u6GKofwaYw+O0CIHdBmIC9mAWkO ukhg3W3NuxfmUp1RrQsH9pmlX9xEMjx8pfbXoRJi/8xntNQ2XAHioCbfzQtcHnIBKp8j RnnjNPDpjMK0X4g3ShHOaCS87Is+5WHgNR+uWAHaFVZrIbjs5SdkFkauVyZqVyumr+oS nzCkJPG+jiaCC5pSCAtUxtXSmfJdNC2/vlg1DMalCTuT/ln4IpPAyLKRMeqYoV0Qce5a dUyMrc9KOU6vNoyC0o2QxFBlwbGwgLwvxKBMzNYGvUx+e7nqGmOVm7I6lExrNicCako2 AXxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxyteMqvOO8YfyzHn7zlA3dQdkt3XI8f8LITpjSU3wxYXNYiU0BEUj OATzk8XnzOLlZuQbWF6eHAy62Z6xF2ytiqeSPq5N X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227lsVxNmtAbAeTOKpxFMjp91hubuBkuPlSVV7i8gG8G6uBJjmTK2bc815wF5xCtQyBAcT6TAQTQdmUwFuQ4B3Q= X-Received: by 10.202.87.72 with SMTP id l69mr4843728oib.264.1516647010073; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:50:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.4.40 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:50:09 -0800 (PST) From: Neeraj Malhotra Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:50:09 -0800 Message-ID: To: Lsvr@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113add704900f8056361e69d" Archived-At: Subject: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:04:44 -0000 --001a113add704900f8056361e69d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, excellent start. fully support the effort and looking forward to contributing. Thanks, Neeraj > On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. > > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > charter is appreciated > > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing > plane. > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI > encoding. > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > charter. > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can > be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > Track > LSVR Milestones: > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > _______________________________________________ Lsvr References: - Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Victor Kuarsingh ; ;; --001a113add704900f8056361e69d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 


Hi,

<= pre class=3D"gmail-wordwrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;overflow:auto;f= ont-family:Menlo,Monaco,Consolas,"Courier New",monospace;font-siz= e:13px;padding:0px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:10px;line-height:1.42857143= ;word-break:normal;word-wrap:normal;border:0px none black;border-top-left-r= adius:4px;border-top-right-radius:4px;border-bottom-right-radius:4px;border= -bottom-left-radius:4px;white-space:pre-wrap">excellent start. fully suppor= t the effort and looking forward to contributing.

Thanks,
Neeraj=


> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde,=
 Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote:
>
> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on
> lsvr@iet=
f.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting&q=
uot; email lists have
> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups]
>
> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible =
WG
> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing).
> Here is what we have so far.  Comments and improvements would be most
> welcome.
>
> WG page is to be setup soon.
> Subscription to LSVR mailing list:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr
>
> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc)  on the draft LSVR
> charter is appreciated
>
>
> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 *****
>   Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing
>   The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to
> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination=
 of
> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.  The LSVR WG will utili=
ze
> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling f=
rom
> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms def=
ined
> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing
> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data
> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbo=
r
> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defi=
ned
> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions.
>   The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a
> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functional=
ity
> within a single distribution domain.  Routing protocol functionality d=
efined
> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay =
routing
> plane.
>   In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focu=
s
> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vect=
ors
> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing ex=
isting
> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRL=
I
> encoding.
>   For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until
> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this
> charter.
>   - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structu=
re
> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor
> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes th=
at can
> be utilized to make routing decisions.
> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participatin=
g
> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain.
>      The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents:
>   - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the
> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational
> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra
> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol
> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target:
> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf)
> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to
> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with
> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target:
> Standards Track
> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards
> Track
>   LSVR Milestones:
>   - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019
> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019
> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019
> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019
>
> _______________________________________________
> rtgwg mailing list
> rtgwg@i=
etf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg=

>

_______________________________________________
Lsvr

References:

   - Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter
   discussion
   <https://mai=
larchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsvr/ejhm_8H4TD94810i-_QC6yI1bxM>
   Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com>; <victor@jvkn=
et.com&gt>;;

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Mon, 22 Jan 2018 16:14:05 -0500 From: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" To: Neeraj Malhotra , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Thread-Index: AQHTk7Pg12U1mvOr+EKSYAE0WECDkKOAMiwA Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:14:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.154.131.119] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FAA6C9706F0949018721B3FB465FA874ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:14:15 -0000 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v70mr564056ywc.156.1516665115933; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [135.227.239.108] ([66.201.62.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o77sm6773358ywd.97.2018.01.22.15.51.51 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:51:55 -0800 (PST) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:51:49 -0800 From: Jeff Tantsura To: "Lsvr@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion References: <6BA96756-14E1-4BA0-A5F0-06362DA61F39@arrcus.com> In-Reply-To: <6BA96756-14E1-4BA0-A5F0-06362DA61F39@arrcus.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3599481112_1307639284" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:51:59 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3599481112_1307639284 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Charter looks good to begin with. Cheers, Jeff > On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. > > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > charter is appreciated > > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing > plane. > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI > encoding. > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > charter. > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can > be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > Track > LSVR Milestones: > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > _______________________________________________ Lsvr References: - Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Victor Kuarsingh ; ;; _______________________________________________ Lsvr mailing list Lsvr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr --B_3599481112_1307639284 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Charter looks good to begin with.

 

Cheers,

Jeff 

= 
> On 1/10/18 5:50 AM, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/An=
twerp) wrote:
> <=
/o:p>
> [Note: Target audience, and discussions shou=
ld happen on
> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting&qu=
ot; email lists have
> been added =
as the concepts originated in those working groups]
<= pre style=3D'margin-bottom:7.5pt'>> 
> Since =
dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG
> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routi=
ng).
> Here is what we have so far=
.  Comments and improvements would be most
> welcome.
> 
> WG page is to be setup soon.
> Subscription to LSVR mailing list:
> https:/=
/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr
> 
> Feedback (c=
omments, edits, corrections, etc)  on the draft LSVR<=
/pre>
> charter is appreciated
> 
> 
> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10=
 2018 *****
>   Charter:=
 LSVR - Link State Vector Routing
>=
;   The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartere=
d to
> develop and document a hybr=
id routing protocol utilizing a combination of
> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.  The LSVR=
 WG will utilize
> existing the IP=
v4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from=

> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI en=
coding mechanisms defined
> in RFC=
7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing<=
/o:p>
> information distribution. An LSV is intended=
 to be specified as a data
> struc=
ture comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor
> information, cost toward neighbors, and o=
ther attributes that are defined
>=
 for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions.<=
/o:p>
>   The LSVR specification is initia=
lly focused on operation within a
>=
; single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality<=
/span>
> within a single distribution dom=
ain.  Routing protocol functionality defined
> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's u= nderlay routing
> plane.
>   In order to achieve the noted=
 objective, the working group will focus
> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State V=
ectors
> (LSVs), and defining stan=
dard path-vector route selection utilizing existing
<= pre style=3D'margin-bottom:7.5pt'>> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, = and BGP-LS NRLI
> encoding.=

>   For the purposes of the in=
itial work within the LSVR WG, and until
> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to thi=
s
> charter.
>   - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended =
to represent a data structure
> (d=
ata set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor<=
o:p>
> information, cost towards neighbors, an=
d other potential attributes that can
> be utilized to make routing decisions.
> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of parti=
cipating
> LSVR nodes in a single =
administrative domain.
> &nbs=
p;    The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following docum=
ents:
>   - Publish Appl=
icability Statement for the use of LSVR in the
> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational
> - Publish specification document describing LSV wit=
h standard Dijkstra
=
> SPF route/pa=
th selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol=

> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding=
 formats - Target:
<=
span style=3D'font-family:"Menlo",sans-serif;color:#333333'>> Standards Tra=
ck (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf)
> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions requi=
red to
> efficiently reuse BGP to =
distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with
> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target:=

> Standards Track
> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - -=
 Target: Standards
<=
span style=3D'font-family:"Menlo",sans-serif;color:#333333'>> Track<=
o:p>
>   LSVR Milestones:
>   - Applicability statement for =
LSVR in DCs: March 2019
> - LSVR w=
ith standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019
> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019
> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019=

> 
> _______________________________________________
> rtgwg mailing list
> rtgwg@ietf.org
=

> <=
span style=3D'color:#337AB7;text-decoration:none'>https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/rtgwg
> =

 
_______________________________________________<=
/pre>
Lsvr
 
References:
 
   - Re: [=
Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter
   discussion
   <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lsvr/ejhm_8H4TD94810i-_QC6y=
I1bxM>
   Vic=
tor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com>; <victor@jvknet.com&gt>;;
 
_______________________________________________ Lsvr mailing list Lsvr@= ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr

--B_3599481112_1307639284-- From nobody Mon Jan 22 18:16:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE3A12D88C for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:16:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7cIIZ1iNrPy for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BBC812D88B for ; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:16:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5769; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1516673769; x=1517883369; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=ZRCJYygINkDg/IfDSwCBGLeFR4LJDWdoB5ruDM5tr0o=; b=D8KFiLOM0Kar4Cj7nMMk6/lcNn+wyEueWegfMtF8PWsh/jhykvgcU5jF DKSvdNEstt2ZsbJbGNUxd3fBFyoDYfA++Cwm6cJJ1K2QjdjLDb2g2C419 72YrumeeMvf/2GpTK1/v3OfOZ6Y4mR5DeP/dFhzjmsY1hWiIIynk71/TJ 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AbAQCLmmZa/4QNJK1eGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYNCZnQnB416jmaCAnyWQhWCAgoYC4UYAoRwVBgBAQEBAQEBAQF?= =?us-ascii?q?rHQuFIwEBAQQBAWwXBAIBCBEEAQEOGgcnCxQJCAEBBBMIiisQtnaKPwEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARsFhEmCFYFXgWiCeDaDLwEBAoE8ARIBCIYTBZJ+kHwChxi?= =?us-ascii?q?EdYlDgiSSBIp1jCUCERkBgTsBHzlgcG8VPYIqhFd4iCeBJYEXAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.46,398,1511827200"; d="scan'208";a="59655167" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jan 2018 02:16:07 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (xch-rcd-015.cisco.com [173.37.102.25]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w0N2G7MG010012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 02:16:07 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:16:06 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:16:06 -0600 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: "lsvr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Thread-Index: AdOJ/UwcaD75A6yMRfGV3jqNSACMxQJ7NLIA Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 02:16:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.121.238] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 02:16:12 -0000 I'll participate. Some considerations: Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and ISIS h= as levels? If so, should the LSVR area border router terminate links from multiple are= as (the IGP way) or use a special link to connect to adjoining areas (like = an ASBR in BGP)? Should LSVR routes be downloaded into RIB separately from traditional BGP r= outes? If so, then they will compete for best path on an equal footing with other = protocols when being redistributed into traditional BGP. If not, then traditional BGP can import an LSVR path and an IGP path for th= e same prefix. The sequence number TLV seems overly complex to me. I can appreciate that a= speaker can receive multiple copies of a single link state from multiple n= eighbors. If they are different, then it must be a transient condition. In = steady state, all copies should be identical, in contrast to traditional BG= P routes. During the transient, what's wrong with choosing the most recentl= y received copy? As already mentioned, BGP-LS could run over a different session than tradit= ional BGP. This would prevent bulk data in one session from delaying data i= n the other session. Also, it would allow one session to be reset without r= esetting the other one. Session resets occur at certain configuration chang= es (e.g. enabling the address family) and to recover from certain errors. Thanks, Jakob -----Original Message----- From: rtgwg [mailto:rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Van De Velde, Gunt= er (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:51 AM To: Lsvr@ietf.org Cc: idr@ietf.org; dcrouting@ietf.org; Victor Kuarsingh ; Keyur Patel ; Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE= /Antwerp) ; Shawn Zandi ; rtgwg@ietf.org Subject: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussio= n [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, how= ever "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have been added as the conc= epts originated in those working groups] Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG ch= arter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most welco= me.=20 WG page is to be setup soon. Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ls= vr Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR charter is = appreciated=20 ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** =A0 Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing=A0 =A0 The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to develop = and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of link-stat= e and path-vector routing mechanisms. =A0The LSVR WG will utilize existing = the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (RFC= 4271). Additionally, the=A0BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined in RFC77= 52 are utilized=A0to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing information= distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure compr= ised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost = toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined for control plane f= unction and policy-based routing decisions. =A0 The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single da= tacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a s= ingle distribution domain. =A0Routing protocol functionality defined by LSV= R would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing plane.= =A0 =A0 In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on st= andardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs)= , and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing Dijk= stra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encodin= g. =A0 For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until further = specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. =A0 - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure (dat= a set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor informat= ion, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can be uti= lized to make routing decisions. - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating LSV= R nodes in a single administrative domain. =A0 =A0 The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: =A0 - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter - T= arget Status: Informational - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra SPF = route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol baseline= functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards Track= (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficie= ntly reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope to incl= ude privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards Track - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track =A0 LSVR Milestones: =A0 - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 _______________________________________________ rtgwg mailing list rtgwg@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg From nobody Mon Jan 22 18:19:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5391512D889 for ; 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Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mahesh-m-m8d1.attlocal.net ([2600:1700:edb0:8fd0:442:cec5:ad94:ce61]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 137sm8871027ioo.22.2018.01.22.18.19.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:19:18 -0800 (PST) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:19:16 -0800 References: To: "lsvr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 02:19:22 -0000 Charter looks good. Looking forward to discussion within the group. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: rtgwg [mailto:rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Van De Velde, = Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 2:51 AM > To: Lsvr@ietf.org > Cc: idr@ietf.org; dcrouting@ietf.org; Victor Kuarsingh = ; Keyur Patel ; Van De = Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) ; = Shawn Zandi ; rtgwg@ietf.org > Subject: Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter = discussion >=20 > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on = lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have = been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] >=20 > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible = WG charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most = welcome.=20 >=20 > WG page is to be setup soon. > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >=20 > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR = charter is appreciated=20 >=20 >=20 > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > =20 > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing=20 > =20 > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to = develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination = of link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will = utilize existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error = handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding = mechanisms defined in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State = Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be = specified as a data structure comprised of a link identification, link = attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbors, and other = attributes that are defined for control plane function and policy-based = routing decisions. > =20 > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a = single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying = functionality within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol = functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a = datacenter's underlay routing plane.=20 > =20 > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus = on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State = Vectors (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection = utilizing existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol = mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encoding. > =20 > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until = further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this = charter. > =20 > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure = (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor = information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that = can be utilized to make routing decisions. > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of = participating LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > =20 > =20 > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > =20 > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the = Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra = SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol = baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: = Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to = efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with = scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: = Standards Track > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards = Track > =20 > LSVR Milestones: > =20 > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Tue Jan 23 01:49:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67ACD12D833 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 01:48:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o1i8qa3A5wR5 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 01:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur01on0722.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe1f::722]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7C7A12D955 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2018 01:48:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=PB7EDO8qMWF1CJzcsDrW70z/KwgGz9USryivXaJ9PQ4=; b=HTKECMdRA/6RXQmIMlbCmzzkQd5Z6v2WWpiNKkCZcbIhnkq393NUNBLylJOFlpeBpbZrPYDCfSMyrMIPAJPlU3Cifg9LqqJiADfFz5eIh6bmmMMWNvFDTrI35eTXkyuj1PyrIiY+tmSSwgUVpEeX7dhEIqSc29YzuQu65L7TEuw= Received: from 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, "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Thread-Index: AQHTlDNdenBdzqwpVk+O4k/PbjUWUQ== Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 10:17:26 +0000 Message-ID: <31C68D70-CEC8-419E-BAD3-F1F7D55907FA@nokia.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.9.0.180116 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jorge.rabadan@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [135.245.20.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM4PR07MB3395; 7:PLqFSA+B0iPP1fQ8fRwIfPZNAnM0d5wQLbmQjmhi8XYCBvIBC0Y4kraw+NZAOyVlDQGGB24/VXL/wp1ine4w4dgiMpSlQ8ERQ8VbjIdIMd2y9tTWU7qPuwxWkZgy5jO6W0W8iealH6nJI9tr261Kdd1mJze21i9l9adqr+uA9rLmB5dq6Ss0E9ZybZGbifYTjYzr4xmyQZGYkGGDC9LgmzsWEd1ArNK5J0ficgs0ICMyAP1EnMlcMXpeGqB0gZY5 x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS;SSOR; x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:SKI; SCL:-1; SFV:NSPM; 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MbPv0fO1zEwaqdRD9WYBcOkVQtIk/Opcnba4HYGVPjc0V/1h/nNqr/MeQV1if/UzHPR69QPs5o/sfgldiIi54x0/BzL4NyL7pYloh0icr04BT8BvGaf1XakxdgMKT1US spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <03A69B81CF3CD6418BF7901CC1ED4C51@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fbae0c98-3ed4-4c7a-a2a9-08d5624a80e4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2018 10:17:27.0175 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR07MB3395 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 23 Jan 2018 02:20:38 -0800 Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing 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"idr@ietf.org" , "dcrouting@ietf.org" , Victor Kuarsingh , Keyur Patel , Shawn Zandi , "rtgwg@ietf.org" , "Serpil Bayraktar (serpil)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c08f932545cf505637c8dc1" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 00:10:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 02:39:06 -0000 --94eb2c08f932545cf505637c8dc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Interesting. +1 on participating Padma On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:57 PM, Serpil Bayraktar (serpil) < serpil@cisco.com> wrote: > This is an interesting (and useful) approach. I am very interested in > participating. > > > > Serpil > > > > *From: *Idr on behalf of "Van De Velde, Gunter > (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" > *Date: *Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:07 AM > *To: *"Lsvr@ietf.org" > *Cc: *"idr@ietf.org" , "dcrouting@ietf.org" < > dcrouting@ietf.org>, Victor Kuarsingh , > Keyur Patel , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - > BE/Antwerp)" , Shawn Zandi < > szandi@linkedin.com>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" > *Subject: *[Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter > discussion > > > > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, > however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have been added as the > concepts originated in those working groups] > > > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > welcome. > > > > WG page is to be setup soon. > > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/ > listinfo/lsvr > > > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR charter is > appreciated > > > > > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > > > > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > > > > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to develop > and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > > > > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single > datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality within a > single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined by LSVR > would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing plane. > > > > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on > standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing > existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS > NRLI encoding. > > > > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until further > specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. > > > > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that > can be utilized to make routing decisions. > > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > > > > > > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > > > > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter - > Target Status: Informational > > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra SPF > route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol baseline > functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards Track > (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with scope > to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards Track > > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track > > > > LSVR Milestones: > > > > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Idr mailing list > > Idr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtgwg mailing list > rtgwg@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > > --94eb2c08f932545cf505637c8dc1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting.
+1 on participating

Padma

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 10:57 PM, Serpil Bayraktar (serpil) <serpil@cisco= .com> wrote:

This is an interesting (and useful) approach. I am v= ery interested in participating.

=C2=A0

Serpil

=C2=A0

From= : Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <= ;gunter.= van_de_velde@nokia.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:07 AM
To: "Lsvr@ie= tf.org" <Lsv= r@ietf.org>
Cc: "idr@ietf= .org" <idr@ie= tf.org>, "dcrouting@ietf.org" <dcrouting@ietf.org>, Victor Kuarsingh <victor.kuarsingh@= oracle.com>, Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>, "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia = - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>, Shawn Zandi <= ;szandi@linkedin.c= om>, "rtgwg@ietf.org" <rtgwg@ietf= .org>
Subject: [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) char= ter discussion

=C2=A0

[Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org<= /span>, however "rtgwg", "idr" a= nd "dcrouting" email lists have been added as the concepts originated in those working groups]

=C2=A0

Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have bee= n discussing a possible WG charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing).=

Here is what we have so far.=C2=A0=C2=A0Commen= ts and improvements would be most welcome.

=C2=A0

WG page is to be setup soon.

Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr

=C2=A0

Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc)= =C2=A0=C2=A0on the draft LSVR charter is appreciated

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 *****=

=C2=A0

Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working G= roup is chartered to develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizi= ng a combination of link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.=C2=A0 Th= e LSVR WG will utilize existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and= error handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the=C2=A0BGP-LS NLRI en= coding mechanisms defined in RFC7752 are utilized=C2=A0to facilitate Link-S= tate Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure comprised of a link= identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbo= rs, and other attributes that are defined for control plane function and po= licy-based routing decisions.

=C2=A0

The LSVR specification is initially focused on= operation within a single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specif= ying functionality within a single distribution domain.=C2=A0 Routing proto= col functionality defined by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacent= er's underlay routing plane.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In order to achieve the noted objective, the w= orking group will focus on standardization of protocol functionality, defin= ing Link-State Vectors (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol = mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encoding.

=C2=A0

For the purposes of the initial work within th= e LSVR WG, and until further specified by the WG, the following definitions= apply to this charter.

=C2=A0

- Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to re= present a data structure (data set) comprised of link identification, link = attributes, neighbor information, cost towards neighbors, and other potenti= al attributes that can be utilized to make routing decisions.

- LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped = as a set of participating LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the follow= ing documents:

=C2=A0

- Publish Applicability Statement for the use = of LSVR in the Datacenter - Target Status: Informational

- Publish specification document describing LS= V with standard Dijkstra SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing e= xisting BGP protocol baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-s= pf)

- Publish specification documenting protocol e= xtensions required to efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IP= v4/IPv6 DC with scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards Track

- Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - = - Target: Standards Track

=C2=A0

LSVR Milestones:

=C2=A0

- Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: Mar= ch 2019

- LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: = March 2019

- LSV distribution using BGP transport: March = 2019

- YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019

=C2=A0

_________________________________________= ______

Idr mailing list

Idr@ietf.org<= /span>

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
rtgwg mailing list
rtgwg@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg


--94eb2c08f932545cf505637c8dc1-- From nobody Wed Jan 24 09:01:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFB812708C for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:01:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xvsKU7-Tkqzg for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x22d.google.com (mail-qt0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F95112DA68 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id d54so12088127qtd.4 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:01:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=xLpAvhk24rCLUetVMj1jjdCgGYwum8hsLSMVbx5JIzg=; b=TXsgK/uhFZulZKa8HtxFrXFjTsBjUqkKLfMnSCy55wIRRRvewkCe8tHA+S5V84In9p v8p+zpJTty9+zZplTJ5ACv7bXJtkqbx+8gUas4GXqagl8gqMZRhjJ7RNP0E7ss7O5Ob/ lgiU+9QLcYZAzCbJ/2XJyc42Ap7LWTTONTVhtAfRNqOuC2uc9CSTB18rFTbBkRgI7IW0 /JOYDj0GoLhkkJOJSQMIgr6ubC8JUZ63uvtpzUJ2JzOtkcAtQSCqbzs6aNlds4N5Cp0z Si8s89bEnsjiG9bcMkuKObXt0y0hP+FsFleYVgLdddHPhl6nWCU4NX4LlK6hE5OZgP2W sEQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=xLpAvhk24rCLUetVMj1jjdCgGYwum8hsLSMVbx5JIzg=; b=WN8yUiQaUNZdXdnPdYU1hbwQjOw4gryGck+mCHwc6vxwiX6NFviEcqYsmN+om/rZT3 Bxw3JRT7/ZpR9wYA8546X/+IyUinlwn6Ccqf9GMt92K2C1k5HcBvBye4XV77bqT3wS9h /MJDEQak6t1hd+fqFF9K2lXUbfTCiKJt0EuWEW1iEvwTb5di5/WGxvoi5edIprP/3EEK R8bjGHsb8zhYhrwdzJfdxq8Z0f9DJBp3OHah4dKKbSBBmVBNxAP75r6P4rNzTURsf34r gURV3Jx5CIBKkRCmk7Slw90sXHmSzWWissPUoH78fx0jIm/Psyj4QONC4J17Mi30qyAq JKVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdPvyj90XwHSRfn2gFu9WRLiuwM5HbEKEgsPb8T4EujG7WibXHh LPthnnsr0oL9UjnfMWkcc3hvVEWg X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227qOyVR7RJBJS6b3WEogLL2labSYO6RI14qFpbngiOfkX9zVScq8KyfuSuqlxAxdU8uCg4ldQ== X-Received: by 10.55.169.140 with SMTP id s134mr10660022qke.39.1516813305323; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8801:880:d03:a1f7:f4e4:d797:2ccb? ([2600:8801:880:d03:a1f7:f4e4:d797:2ccb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u9sm2473645qtj.80.2018.01.24.09.01.44 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:01:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jacob Uecker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EF638900-1E85-4818-BAE3-25B2E5D0F95D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 09:01:42 -0800 References: To: lsvr@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 17:01:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EF638900-1E85-4818-BAE3-25B2E5D0F95D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99m looking forwarding to participating - particularly from the = operations perspective.=20 The charter looks good. -Jacob > > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > > lsvr@ietf.org , however "rtgwg", "idr" and = "dcrouting" email lists have > > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] > >=20 > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a = possible WG > > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be = most > > welcome. > >=20 > > WG page is to be setup soon. > > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr = > >=20 > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > > charter is appreciated > >=20 > >=20 > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a = combination of > > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will = utilize > > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling = from > > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms = defined > > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) = routing > > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a = data > > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, = neighbor > > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are = defined > > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying = functionality > > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality = defined > > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay = routing > > plane. > > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will = focus > > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State = Vectors > > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing = existing > > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS = NRLI > > encoding. > > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > > charter. > > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data = structure > > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, = neighbor > > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes = that can > > be utilized to make routing decisions. > > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of = participating > > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard = Dijkstra > > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP = protocol > > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > > Standards Track > > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > > Track > > LSVR Milestones: > > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > rtgwg mailing list > > rtgwg@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg = > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr > References: >=20 > Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter = discussion = > Victor Kuarsingh > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr --Apple-Mail=_EF638900-1E85-4818-BAE3-25B2E5D0F95D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
I=E2=80=99m looking forwarding to = participating - particularly from the operations = perspective. 

The charter looks good.

-Jacob


>=
 [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on
> lsvr@ietf.org, however =
"rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have
> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups]
>=20
> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a =
possible WG
> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing).
> Here is what we have so far.  Comments and improvements would be =
most
> welcome.
>=20
> WG page is to be setup soon.
> Subscription to LSVR mailing list:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr
>=20
> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc)  on the draft LSVR
> charter is appreciated
>=20
>=20
> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 *****
>   Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing
>   The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered =
to
> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a =
combination of
> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.  The LSVR WG will =
utilize
> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error =
handling from
> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms =
defined
> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) =
routing
> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a =
data
> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, =
neighbor
> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are =
defined
> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions.
>   The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a
> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying =
functionality
> within a single distribution domain.  Routing protocol =
functionality defined
> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay =
routing
> plane.
>   In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will =
focus
> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State =
Vectors
> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing =
existing
> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS =
NRLI
> encoding.
>   For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and =
until
> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to =
this
> charter.
>   - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data =
structure
> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, =
neighbor
> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes =
that can
> be utilized to make routing decisions.
> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of =
participating
> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain.
>      The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents:
>   - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the
> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational
> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard =
Dijkstra
> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP =
protocol
> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target:
> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf)
> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to
> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC =
with
> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target:
> Standards Track
> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards
> Track
>   LSVR Milestones:
>   - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019
> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019
> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019
> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtgwg mailing list
> rtgwg@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg
>=20

_______________________________________________
Lsvr
_______________________________________________
Lsvr = mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr

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(PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YXcVC3fSOH9O; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67819127286; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:24:02 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=166.176.249.181; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Van De Velde, Gunter \(Nokia - BE/Antwerp\)'" , Cc: , , "'Victor Kuarsingh'" , "'Keyur Patel'" , "'Shawn Zandi'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 21:23:43 -0500 Message-ID: <00ce01d39583$862e1de0$928a59a0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQLB9sUCoOZJmFAqxdxYC+t36B9J46GnGIBA Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 23:00:57 -0800 Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 02:24:04 -0000 Gunter: First all - I'm thrilled to see the work in the IETF. =20 I am a long term supporter advancing SSPV (link state path-vector) algorithms (starting in 1999/2000). =20 Second, you have my assurance that we will fast-track any BGP-LS you = deem critical (just as we do for spring, BESS, Grow and other BGP related = WGs).=20 Third, you might want to put coordinate with IDR into your charter. =20 Cheerily, Susan Hares -----Original Message----- From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Van De Velde, = Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 5:51 AM To: Lsvr@ietf.org Cc: idr@ietf.org; dcrouting@ietf.org; Victor Kuarsingh; Keyur Patel; Van = De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp); Shawn Zandi; rtgwg@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have been added as = the concepts originated in those working groups] Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most welcome.=20 WG page is to be setup soon. Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR charter = is appreciated=20 ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** =A0 Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing=A0 =A0 The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to = develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of = link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. =A0The LSVR WG will utilize existing = the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the=A0BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined = in RFC7752 are utilized=A0to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are = defined for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. =A0 The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality = within a single distribution domain. =A0Routing protocol functionality defined by = LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing = plane.=A0 =A0 In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing = existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encoding. =A0 For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until = further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. =A0 - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure = (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that = can be utilized to make routing decisions. - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating = LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. =A0 =A0 The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: =A0 - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter = - Target Status: Informational - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra = SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol = baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards = Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with = scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards = Track - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track =A0 LSVR Milestones: =A0 - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Wed Jan 24 23:01:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94504124205; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:41:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yGzB43pPSdB5; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A35AD120047; Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:41:32 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=166.176.249.181; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Van De Velde, Gunter \(Nokia - BE/Antwerp\)'" , Cc: , , "'Victor Kuarsingh'" , "'Keyur Patel'" , "'Shawn Zandi'" , References: <00ce01d39583$862e1de0$928a59a0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <00ce01d39583$862e1de0$928a59a0$@ndzh.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 21:41:17 -0500 Message-ID: <00f801d39585$fa3c4840$eeb4d8c0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQLB9sUCoOZJmFAqxdxYC+t36B9J4wIAFu+EoZcaXZA= Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 23:00:57 -0800 Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 02:41:35 -0000 Gunter: It looks like my keyboard bounced - I am a long term support of LSPV = (link state path vector).=20 Thank you for arranging this work.=20 Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 9:24 PM To: 'Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)'; Lsvr@ietf.org Cc: idr@ietf.org; dcrouting@ietf.org; 'Victor Kuarsingh'; 'Keyur Patel'; 'Shawn Zandi'; rtgwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) = charter discussion Gunter: First all - I'm thrilled to see the work in the IETF. =20 I am a long term supporter advancing SSPV (link state path-vector) algorithms (starting in 1999/2000). =20 Second, you have my assurance that we will fast-track any BGP-LS you = deem critical (just as we do for spring, BESS, Grow and other BGP related = WGs).=20 Third, you might want to put coordinate with IDR into your charter. =20 Cheerily, Susan Hares -----Original Message----- From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Van De Velde, = Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 5:51 AM To: Lsvr@ietf.org Cc: idr@ietf.org; dcrouting@ietf.org; Victor Kuarsingh; Keyur Patel; Van = De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp); Shawn Zandi; rtgwg@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have been added as = the concepts originated in those working groups] Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most welcome.=20 WG page is to be setup soon. Subscription to LSVR mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR charter = is appreciated=20 ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** =A0 Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing=A0 =A0 The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to = develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of = link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. =A0The LSVR WG will utilize existing = the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the=A0BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined = in RFC7752 are utilized=A0to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are = defined for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. =A0 The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality = within a single distribution domain. =A0Routing protocol functionality defined by = LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing = plane.=A0 =A0 In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing = existing Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI encoding. =A0 For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until = further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this charter. =A0 - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure = (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that = can be utilized to make routing decisions. - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating = LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. =A0 =A0 The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: =A0 - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the Datacenter = - Target Status: Informational - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra = SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol = baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: Standards = Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with = scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: Standards = Track - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards Track =A0 LSVR Milestones: =A0 - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Thu Jan 25 10:47:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB1D127342 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 10:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0evyB4OAXMY for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 10:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFD4912706D for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 10:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eemY7-0006Lr-D9; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:46:59 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 10:46:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: "lsvr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 18:47:03 -0000 > Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and > ISIS has levels? to what purpose? randy From nobody Thu Jan 25 11:11:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8A712E8A2 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:11:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O0A-jLsG8WHz for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BAAE1275F4 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:10:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=926; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1516907458; x=1518117058; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=d4FSy8ikU+Txj8IVd4WIl+dudwZC3eL/RLsGTuJdinQ=; b=O6Nuq5XG8V8OPCS3eCPWYdoRebfvgtyHzFxfi/ggs4c8xwpTNDugxsex oMxk7piKlIGTp1lM+/eay6Fjt6kTzHuPtQh6HXiS3XVu0j3ZeIFRDEu2H xId9DC4gEjeW6exuN+ymS1kfWErBp35GWzHNwc0b/TBEqHD9/j64mMHTl o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AAAQApK2pa/5NdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYNCZnQnB416jmmCApdDghcKGAuFGAKCGFQYAQEBAQEBAQECayi?= =?us-ascii?q?FIwEBAQMBAQE4NAsFBwQCAQgRBAEBHwkHJwsUCQgBAQQOBQiKJQgQtySKVQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFhFGCFYFXgWiDLoMvAQECh2sFpAoClVeULpc?= =?us-ascii?q?tAhEZAYE7AR85gVBwFT2CKoRXeI0jgRcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.46,413,1511827200"; d="scan'208";a="129854934" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Jan 2018 19:10:57 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (xch-rcd-015.cisco.com [173.37.102.25]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w0PJAvb2013181 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:10:57 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:10:56 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:10:56 -0600 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Randy Bush CC: "lsvr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Thread-Index: AdOJ/UwcaD75A6yMRfGV3jqNSACMxQJ7NLIAAJVDIwAAC/dsUA== Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:10:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.154.160.88] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:11:00 -0000 For scalability. The OSPF "areas" concept looks quite easy: just use regular VGP routes betw= een "areas". The only difference is that an OSPF ABR straddles the area boundaries, wher= eas an AS boundary is between 2 ASBRs in BGP. The ISIS concept of levels could get interesting if duplicated in BGP SPF. It joins level 1 domains with level 2 links. Thanks, Jakob -----Original Message----- From: Lsvr [mailto:lsvr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Bush Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 10:47 AM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: lsvr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charte= r discussion > Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and=20 > ISIS has levels? to what purpose? randy _______________________________________________ Lsvr mailing list Lsvr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr From nobody Thu Jan 25 11:26:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F03312EA53 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:26:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kUEdiRPOPSUh for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ACF212EA81 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eenAA-0006S2-By; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:26:18 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:26:17 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: "lsvr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:26:33 -0000 >>> Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and >>> ISIS has levels? >> to what purpose? > For scalability. i thought that is why we were using bgp. if it can't scale to this, then let's go to the other tony. > The OSPF "areas" concept looks quite easy: just use regular VGP routes between "areas". > The only difference is that an OSPF ABR straddles the area boundaries, whereas an AS boundary is between 2 ASBRs in BGP. > The ISIS concept of levels could get interesting if duplicated in BGP SPF. > It joins level 1 domains with level 2 links. i am sure we can figure out how to complicate it. randy From nobody Thu Jan 25 11:34:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E0612EA7F for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:34:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WmEdiqKg1NMs for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x232.google.com (mail-pg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BBA91201FA for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x232.google.com with SMTP id r19so5700020pgn.1 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:34:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ZLwRiCOa0W/btgh8hgHh5eZF98IZrDC+vFCLcxuOoyY=; b=M77goqcwqxcBrMsObMuzxWfeWI65e5Gje7z3f8lxt4Q3V0TOzehsiYs5+kdL+Fhi0j PXZuSgJbUvts/k4liAXYl9X3/nOHtwR1lRkaepf0R/NkC43/BGTaXWALsHgPVOGXiIe6 3m513kCDOyYq4rRkow3UI+PkvajS6vfnaGyeNzUGozcUFUEYdQr/Oe6ZYykeoztKAIKD XRbAkII8STQljPLUpyFnmT16abMc21Xkw0W08zQ+mk9fYu71pvxcwkYM85TliPtLulId i5gy5kHFwVWpbMnDdczNCFK5nm+FYQLfwwS8bTPX9YVB53rvimDi6ZrGHW802ukGDnau UTeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ZLwRiCOa0W/btgh8hgHh5eZF98IZrDC+vFCLcxuOoyY=; b=Nwl3NbQxvz2zizZJkm4NRMQTld1Dk80arV0mHxdW778G/LwMqQd9NYjzMTiFiycf3R EeQVGm6FAIFyFZgl2Vt8HMDp6rHUEHcK3SZz2JAUZKmVlmCCMr69Di8X+dc+j4NEr17n 0BKNDKwJsz1ZoV+6roGO83pHnmKiMzrcHmBKfeM4hUT9y19+4KLQEiEntRSQeXoreRUK 9axKP7SnN6fQKASm/BE1qHIDikFZrPINxERv0wHL6bGJM4R2VaQPczUrtsz8vOwaDYBI g37pWXuSp7zhoKULu+fgZp37/w6AXq9ZclhsmylwDqBy+AYRqQvcokMQeMiciFlTIvHw D+NA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcg3haQ6IzipC2a4Ew51CSyaY6SrsZQjJnDOi+BMAshS5AgX1ZP 0E1+3LNTwtHf1jVZSj8cJ1c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225TThgKKfhn9sayBdHwF8lDXnjjaXeGYew0mhfta7uDrbHe54Bli4TJ/CGKQswDVX6D780srQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6087:: with SMTP id s7-v6mr11870828plj.6.1516908883423; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.22.228.216] ([162.210.130.3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z128sm16880309pfb.36.2018.01.25.11.34.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:34:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Tony Li In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 11:34:41 -0800 Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4DD58182-10E6-480F-A787-DE03DE089355@gmail.com> References: To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 19:34:50 -0000 >>>> Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas = and=20 >>>> ISIS has levels? >>> to what purpose? >> For scalability. >=20 > i thought that is why we were using bgp. That addresses the scalability of update propagation, but the SPF = operation is still O(n log n) on the size of the area database. If there = is no abstraction, this will balloon. >> The OSPF "areas" concept looks quite easy: just use regular VGP = routes between "areas". >> The only difference is that an OSPF ABR straddles the area = boundaries, whereas an AS boundary is between 2 ASBRs in BGP. >> The ISIS concept of levels could get interesting if duplicated in BGP = SPF. >> It joins level 1 domains with level 2 links. >=20 > i am sure we can figure out how to complicate it. It actually would be more complicated to not respect the abstractions = that the base protocol is expecting. Tony From nobody Thu Jan 25 12:15:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2D612EA62 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:15:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqQVIMUlrcpX for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 337D512EA98 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eenvp-0006ig-0N; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:15:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 12:15:32 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Tony Li Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "lsvr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <4DD58182-10E6-480F-A787-DE03DE089355@gmail.com> References: <4DD58182-10E6-480F-A787-DE03DE089355@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:15:38 -0000 >>>>> Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and >>>>> ISIS has levels? >>>> to what purpose? >>> For scalability. >> i thought that is why we were using bgp. > That addresses the scalability of update propagation, but the SPF > operation is still O(n log n) on the size of the area database. If > there is no abstraction, this will balloon. does bgp not already provide [too] many mechanisms for scoping propagation? >>> The OSPF "areas" concept looks quite easy: just use regular VGP >>> routes between "areas". The only difference is that an OSPF ABR >>> straddles the area boundaries, whereas an AS boundary is between 2 >>> ASBRs in BGP. >>> The ISIS concept of levels could get interesting if duplicated in >>> BGP SPF. It joins level 1 domains with level 2 links. >> i am sure we can figure out how to complicate it. > It actually would be more complicated to not respect the abstractions > that the base protocol is expecting. given that the base protocol is bgp, we could list the abstractions it provides for limiting scope except this margin is too small. randy From nobody Thu Jan 25 13:04:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91C112EAB0 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hulshof-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QEMJq_gNVJ9A for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x22a.google.com (mail-qt0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 906EE12EAA1 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id g14so22773136qti.2 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:03:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hulshof-ca.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4gWKDKd70iTD0SxtQOCJAP7Q4S2cnzUAkDrHeBsZ+CM=; b=rITXw1jKsn2q6uOwprgWBWG9GvEo7eK/DDLTmiuDny9iYP4nfwgLoQwsNUr0qGk6qh k6I5HnvApi+aNOmUZqUiFKNDuUa6jA3CvqqOgUsrDg6ZhC2mvaUWRUoizIXbQp8D4f1F 62prepEVOES7s8xTSouZGJ6gpXAQuxeWsCfmSGBRZ6+W2D1du6LE8tDFQ2I95LzpL3np 9riNuIYRwR3xDC6kHcSBG8AYP/syhWmDWyNujOxHTpi8+oGehNqcaP5QaqSuyjAQjBJ6 RTg+CdjPmfReAgsQnk0940hqCJjX2IeuPQ3qNsRKtAZ8X/A/CVq2XmLZNaLqKakLPC7M BWKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4gWKDKd70iTD0SxtQOCJAP7Q4S2cnzUAkDrHeBsZ+CM=; b=gbUfnsBaB5sLPKSsDpuad+MCtiysIFQcSD++rEAUWsgogCveyf8luZJDzbbyApP/60 YYhpWM/CeQpIjWkhmyPhRa/7tnYsO8jUkq6x2DtGj2Mn+i2y/h2Oog/Q468HD5NxIbaJ m4ygpQcdYe8PPEAovY2kzhuktLT29ZXbgA9EttuuTzDF4I8gSPMB+xaAUFSO//pk/6Wo dD1SkfU2uD6SNY14gUBhrwmyhPuC22OqHSjCyy1r0tmg3M3U9GE+Gv6RH/OqKtWUU1Az kCcNpnIPodIuVu+RBKl6HYr8fqdAdNdu8ZL70JMLd18YQTqKyZQMP1GVUyf6ryIT33kC k6Cg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytf8+vwvdmQMxfxhqhbIGCWk3pAsMFT2pj1G4LIGIJw8U0WB0Dug xh1C4kmfCZFjW91UpjeNJZ68OIsycJSxFoZbJ8yrGPCS X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x227kWXfyEm8PUoV6vpZqlHJHLYA+f81Pj1DlzIrbZPrLUjELq6QaQtqnK8B7Uo3N1sfeuHScYAjfZH76R7pFcKQ= X-Received: by 10.237.53.144 with SMTP id c16mr3355975qte.215.1516914231438; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:03:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> From: Steve Hulshof Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 21:03:40 +0000 Message-ID: To: lsvr@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11c11026eb7e1f0563a01dcd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 21:03:56 -0000 --001a11c11026eb7e1f0563a01dcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello, +1 on the charter Looking forward to participating in the work and leveraging this in our production networks. Steve > > [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on > > lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" and "dcrouting" email lists have > > been added as the concepts originated in those working groups] > > > > Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible WG > > charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing). > > Here is what we have so far. Comments and improvements would be most > > welcome. > > > > WG page is to be setup soon. > > Subscription to LSVR mailing list: > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > > > Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc) on the draft LSVR > > charter is appreciated > > > > > > ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 ***** > > Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing > > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to > > develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination of > > link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will utilize > > existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling from > > BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms defined > > in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing > > information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data > > structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbor > > information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defined > > for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions. > > The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a > > single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functionality > > within a single distribution domain. Routing protocol functionality defined > > by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay routing > > plane. > > In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focus > > on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vectors > > (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing existing > > Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRLI > > encoding. > > For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until > > further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this > > charter. > > - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structure > > (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor > > information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes that can > > be utilized to make routing decisions. > > - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participating > > LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain. > > The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents: > > - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the > > Datacenter - Target Status: Informational > > - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra > > SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol > > baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target: > > Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf) > > - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to > > efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with > > scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target: > > Standards Track > > - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards > > Track > > LSVR Milestones: > > - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019 > > - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019 > > - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019 > > - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtgwg mailing list > > rtgwg@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg > > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr > > References: > > - Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter > discussion > > Victor Kuarsingh > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > --001a11c11026eb7e1f0563a01dcd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

+1 on the charter=

Looking forward to participating in the work and = leveraging this in our production networks.

Steve<= /div>



<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
> [Note: Target audience, and discussions should happen on
> lsvr@ietf.org, however "rtgwg", "idr" a=
nd "dcrouting" email lists have
> been added as the concepts originated in those working groups]
>=20
> Since dcrouting@ietf100, a few people have been discussing a possible =
WG
> charter for LSVR (Link State Vector Routing).
> Here is what we have so far.  Comments and improvements would be most
> welcome.
>=20
> WG page is to be setup soon.
> Subscription to LSVR mailing list:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/lsvr
>=20
> Feedback (comments, edits, corrections, etc)  on the draft LSVR
> charter is appreciated
>=20
>=20
> ***** DRAFT CHARTER UPDATE - JAN 10 2018 *****
>   Charter: LSVR - Link State Vector Routing
>   The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to
> develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination=
 of
> link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms.  The LSVR WG will utili=
ze
> existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error handling f=
rom
> BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding mechanisms def=
ined
> in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State Vector (LSV) routing
> information distribution. An LSV is intended to be specified as a data
> structure comprised of a link identification, link attributes, neighbo=
r
> information, cost toward neighbors, and other attributes that are defi=
ned
> for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions.
>   The LSVR specification is initially focused on operation within a
> single datacenter (DC) with preliminary focus on specifying functional=
ity
> within a single distribution domain.  Routing protocol functionality d=
efined
> by LSVR would be typically routing within a datacenter's underlay =
routing
> plane.
>   In order to achieve the noted objective, the working group will focu=
s
> on standardization of protocol functionality, defining Link-State Vect=
ors
> (LSVs), and defining standard path-vector route selection utilizing ex=
isting
> Dijkstra SPF based algorithm, BGP-4 protocol mechanics, and BGP-LS NRL=
I
> encoding.
>   For the purposes of the initial work within the LSVR WG, and until
> further specified by the WG, the following definitions apply to this
> charter.
>   - Link-State Vector - An LSV is intended to represent a data structu=
re
> (data set) comprised of link identification, link attributes, neighbor
> information, cost towards neighbors, and other potential attributes th=
at can
> be utilized to make routing decisions.
> - LSVR Distribution Domain - Initially scoped as a set of participatin=
g
> LSVR nodes in a single administrative domain.
>      The LSVR WG is chartered to deliver the following documents:
>   - Publish Applicability Statement for the use of LSVR in the
> Datacenter - Target Status: Informational
> - Publish specification document describing LSV with standard Dijkstra
> SPF route/path selection (calculation) utilizing existing BGP protocol
> baseline functionality and BGP-LS packet encoding formats - Target:
> Standards Track (Based on draft draft-keyupate-idr-bgp-spf)
> - Publish specification documenting protocol extensions required to
> efficiently reuse BGP to distribute LSVs within an IPv4/IPv6 DC with
> scope to include privacy and security considerations - - Target:
> Standards Track
> - Publish YANG model specification for LSVR - - Target: Standards
> Track
>   LSVR Milestones:
>   - Applicability statement for LSVR in DCs: March 2019
> - LSVR with standard Dijkstra path selection: March 2019
> - LSV distribution using BGP transport: March 2019
> - YANG specification for LSRV: July 2019
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> rtgwg mailing list
> rtgwg@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/rtgwg
>=20

_______________________________________________
Lsvr
_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr

_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr
--001a11c11026eb7e1f0563a01dcd-- From nobody Thu Jan 25 13:15:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9125128896 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:15:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFlufAQE-5P1 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 515AF1271DF for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id r71so17374379wmd.1 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:15:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=k77Vzx2q6hzu0oWq1AQ07DsEFS1TUPyQ8/LErsZVxIU=; b=X2OMIHupDidafHmKX9FaeLl3iYspvc4GeRZFCV6QMMPbiihLPlTxD4v3xR6LDVqnB6 D1wWoHfDik7wDY38HcQrmn3g1Uh22RDvW7UQuUKYBz/gwsf8eK0QJos9TS2VrxN98YsW KQgtM7WyNDQR2cMeAofrwcYsPJYj0DxxHy4e2eVczwvV1aDo80nn1Xw8kw5qs5hpvdDH 9OT0YkcVb2jjKR1AwOuLrdl836qGudiViCKWxCaOsUFsyxH1SuQavl69E/Kx7VZidYZA jk0NV16RAOmpgmqFClWZxbTBAir+XIYpTQ7xQguxWop2QqlhHkorMdGAwWP6N0lltoDh f5ag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=k77Vzx2q6hzu0oWq1AQ07DsEFS1TUPyQ8/LErsZVxIU=; b=JDoqogGnDtUo3F8abwP7bGdYyQ0/7tRVb6mzTszjp5G8+HT51thWYTJEbnsdKY8GsW zbH+CVXpfoeID9enFdlhnYEtYW/W/oxhv8IkHnfSdOl35aqe4YGhqesez5NTQ/kB4dXy vu5zX0JAfJ6/fxzpeFnH8SLq7d8ygMvLqWdhEDz58uBd542yMmUe0e05hvAMVl7/1uUM 6hh31/JfA+DhelOSD8gxLcwkz1m9eDX2iw2EwxbL+OZxxatgTjStnc1rZNeJaqGV//Rw RH6xjTOi8LyAlGnTZWXqulfkJdLfxyEnruDB6GrCh60a8C6hoT20QCglHHUQ6EulpGxO tDuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytditG2qy+Wd4lJyXgF3XLK71vX8ANqLmgOhSOIgsZ81ZzMUpSUm A+Cketjw9ocrs31SUhDWin+DVXCl X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224Nu/VRlkT3qu3td0Zvw33o7kvJMYeZT+ifW8q9SF+mp2KshF0E2Pa0rlsAKIzDFeAldKdAVQ== X-Received: by 10.28.4.84 with SMTP id 81mr8313466wme.150.1516914916532; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 234.66.20.149.in-addr.arpa (234.66.20.149.in-addr.arpa. [149.20.66.234]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5sm6109341wre.35.2018.01.25.13.15.14 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:15:15 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_78FFD67B-F25A-43D5-9D93-1715F2B60DC2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 13:15:11 -0800 References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> To: lsvr@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 21:15:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_78FFD67B-F25A-43D5-9D93-1715F2B60DC2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Likewise, the charter seems reasonable. The one question I had reading = it was that it seems to contain protocol details that might need to be = changed in the process of working group discussion, and so should = perhaps be left to the documents. I'd suggest text such as "protocol = details will be as described in" whatever the right document is, = "consistent with" the right RFC. --Apple-Mail=_78FFD67B-F25A-43D5-9D93-1715F2B60DC2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlpqSN8ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+C17w/5AR202AwappYz8fw5fDdiNqHotARMVZqkkG9NGKrkVvSTlbprWvV38r24 TwakgrLjISDMAdowVbLV7NpVWha8cVg8QmqDhaHCg6Ke6P6nU3uAaQ2VKeldGDXg MS7ExprfxmNX5sUc8071d0q5qVImvFFib+MhOTSMsQB5gIJokd15V6GiTLlw68Gq o92SRfsk6I7MMz7jEFvYgUBhfFCZgoCmW1b1UVGyX+wskAzRG46mebN/OHl+4aYW WdpkpMJSczvUk/aXtggwUFMFdgxOoiMag+0pDphCJJdD+C3Ye6Xb2Svw8wBkHq9P RswR9Ur6hguSAPMdabLcQaZn6MphCh5THybvtIY3KM1Dw1GJtl2qN3nWdJrxaYCt z57haWSXivw+/DVsxJIGkjXA3RgT2/fCfE7VdlTEZo9FtCohB7ojSam9ZGJzsfdd ENkqf/wMY2JYfs/FqPYyADeF6dF2Jy8RIqAiA3EkyxqGZV2pj+nw8DJuWVvmcMvB uETbK4hV2leqd0RG4Gq+XA4y3w3iTDFuc+9h/JkhUki8B/+SVvH1vG3BkuiNVKKW jrmOpptf4nQ2SROV1e7qtGHxvljLsPqfYx8dlidd9wRwjrY9wumTPTugra/wI7Js jnEyWyXjnZNa00OxagvBb9XeGWpMRpAgnwyeZupCvevnAtD61Jw= =YPWa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_78FFD67B-F25A-43D5-9D93-1715F2B60DC2-- From nobody Thu Jan 25 14:29:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D00312D777; 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Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:28:46 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <00ce01d39583$862e1de0$928a59a0$@ndzh.com> References: <00ce01d39583$862e1de0$928a59a0$@ndzh.com> X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:28:46 -0800 Message-ID: To: Susan Hares , lsvr@ietf.org, "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Cc: Victor Kuarsingh , dcrouting@ietf.org, rtgwg@ietf.org, idr@ietf.org, Keyur Patel , Shawn Zandi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1134fe58a35f690563a14de8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Dcrouting] [Idr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 22:28:49 -0000 --001a1134fe58a35f690563a14de8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On January 24, 2018 at 9:24:07 PM, Susan Hares (shares@ndzh.com) wrote: Third, you might want to put coordinate with IDR into your charter. Yes, definitely! I=E2=80=99ll add that to the working copy. Thanks! Alvaro. --001a1134fe58a35f690563a14de8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On January 24,= 2018 at 9:24:07 PM, Susan Hares (shares= @ndzh.com) wrote:

Third, you might want to put coordinate with IDR into your c= harter.=C2=A0

Yes, defini= tely!=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll add that to the working copy.

Thanks!
Alvaro.
--001a1134fe58a35f690563a14de8-- From nobody Thu Jan 25 14:34:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3AD112EADA for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:34:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lCh5Gu0UEHwx for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x233.google.com (mail-ot0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D5B812EAD9 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x233.google.com with SMTP id a24so8463398otd.4 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:34:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pJpRgRvFOnTjj3R1mGLaueyRrcNcFseLWr0Bzmd6NN8=; b=YqNQCk4YLBEPV3oULJaf41Baugf5nE/RmBIcn9+kuU8bBZMJCWSnIclY8D52HCGFvF lhttiYo78GMknlBb04KgHlj63bSC0oF+Iu/ZnU/ST2NlBxHZiLcPSClFydEXLnj2uJ78 p7N17Myrz9s4cSus4j06B2uTqq7vppN0Q3MysItKqkIQhud3Nvu9bcNwS+lA87uattVl n5U+19tPk1YRl4rsbLpxKhjaQeoRwTcPNZK6SEEiH6k/K9GOZ6Si8hFSszvVQtvJX1gu j8F2/dh3mcUAD8QLdiDUN/QPNWiGK3ss20BcB+n4dV4cVRzKN1+hB6BU0REJLP5xMb89 k6YQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pJpRgRvFOnTjj3R1mGLaueyRrcNcFseLWr0Bzmd6NN8=; b=JkytSvxKfsuKZ6gFWfK7bnGQ+VolEgv1mpEqWctWhmmAyd9CyOdkScxJgLTOaGsUQY NORhmMF1iVsTfcijJ1YF8a7e3Oo8TEO6OU59egztf3D1yBCINhW1lpr8j9bZDOFHGpVo h8eRtlYdGM4Tut3cu14qGJGshN67WPId7WQSrYlzpT6ljI/J9vimtHzHXVs5L0/WxbUh yAxf0hvcciOntvJ9hC2Ckin4NYdaHjSYppYkSTyB/ZUbFz0AGti40BLGrMkgepw+yHNb JO566Dys6tKPIQlwCltOSlcZ1ZPKBKoZ/dS4SI6AZwbIjF92DwEeWGEEp4dFJZuMrT6A I/1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdrPEY+sTNYItDPo74Hr1lv9B8P57VONlZU8jrHXTYmfnt+NkZk TejHPHBMxZ1Coq+ylOkAmq8pGfdRrBHF3/xWdTY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224vY1fL5Vn8xBVtq5MTOreEx6T/x9q/pLfvsbgRzNcjB4k+bkjwkxH2hmIE6Cw3OWuyzHja4Wqk97NtTt0HtzU= X-Received: by 10.157.22.220 with SMTP id s28mr12076626ots.317.1516919651787; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:34:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:34:11 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: <4DD58182-10E6-480F-A787-DE03DE089355@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:34:11 -0800 Message-ID: To: Tony Li , Randy Bush Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113e4d2aff680d0563a160ab" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 22:34:51 -0000 --001a113e4d2aff680d0563a160ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! The WG can discuss whether the current mechanisms are enough or not. However, to constrain the initial work to something that can be delivered in a short timeframe (12-18 months), the charter already talks about operation within a single =E2=80=9Cdistribution domain=E2=80=9D, which is a= kin to a flooding domain. IOW, the current scope is a single area/domain. Alvaro. On January 25, 2018 at 3:15:42 PM, Randy Bush (randy@psg.com) wrote: >>>>> Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and >>>>> ISIS has levels? >>>> to what purpose? >>> For scalability. >> i thought that is why we were using bgp. > That addresses the scalability of update propagation, but the SPF > operation is still O(n log n) on the size of the area database. If > there is no abstraction, this will balloon. does bgp not already provide [too] many mechanisms for scoping propagation? >>> The OSPF "areas" concept looks quite easy: just use regular VGP >>> routes between "areas". The only difference is that an OSPF ABR >>> straddles the area boundaries, whereas an AS boundary is between 2 >>> ASBRs in BGP. >>> The ISIS concept of levels could get interesting if duplicated in >>> BGP SPF. It joins level 1 domains with level 2 links. >> i am sure we can figure out how to complicate it. > It actually would be more complicated to not respect the abstractions > that the base protocol is expecting. given that the base protocol is bgp, we could list the abstractions it provides for limiting scope except this margin is too small. randy _______________________________________________ Lsvr mailing list Lsvr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr --001a113e4d2aff680d0563a160ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Hi!

The WG can discuss whether the current mechanisms are enough or no= t.=C2=A0 However, to constrain the initial work to something that can be de= livered in a short timeframe (12-18 months), the charter already talks abou= t operation within a single =E2=80=9Cdistribution domain=E2=80=9D, which is= akin to a flooding domain.=C2=A0 IOW, the current scope is a single area/d= omain.

Alvaro.
=

On January 25, 2018 at 3:15:42 PM, Randy Bush (= randy@psg.com) wrote:

>>>>= ;> Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and = =20
>>>>> ISIS has levels?
>>>> to what purpose?
>>> For scalability.
>> i thought that is why we were using bgp.
> That addresses the scalability of update propagation, but the SPF
> operation is still O(n log n) on the size of the area database. If
> there is no abstraction, this will balloon.

does bgp not already provide [too] many mechanisms for scoping
propagation?

>>> The OSPF "areas" concept looks quite easy: just = use regular VGP
>>> routes between "areas". The only difference is = that an OSPF ABR
>>> straddles the area boundaries, whereas an AS boundary is b= etween 2
>>> ASBRs in BGP.
>>> The ISIS concept of levels could get interesting if duplic= ated in
>>> BGP SPF. It joins level 1 domains with level 2 links.
>> i am sure we can figure out how to complicate it.
> It actually would be more complicated to not respect the abstracti= ons
> that the base protocol is expecting.

given that the base protocol is bgp, we could list the abstractions it
provides for limiting scope except this margin is too small.

randy

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--001a113e4d2aff680d0563a160ab-- From nobody Thu Jan 25 14:36:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA5912D7E3 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:36:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1vlmeeijWsAQ for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22e.google.com (mail-ot0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ADD712D777 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a24so8473599otd.4 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:36:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3qx8Aa+YsC/0ZniPmBvPUSfvLuzS3ADgZuzCtxcL7CA=; b=D91PfNNeGoVJdjlF413wsy9cRO1IuFceyCarxN6Ox0zMsK1K4ABh9HLFVFTnohBEbz mnNj6DaGEmrQYE4ciA+J1jcqEeGie2jQIABv3OaGK/qoW6XY1WJjE539nPcbqhF3Ml4G VUEhFHtIiqAuZWUOwWBNJTlrwNDx8B3dgT53heqLQlCSi/DsTkherFrTWdRIV0NmBgAq jQcIj0hZqHn11njkF1O6eAT0yWqQB7TlmyIeZ4z4YqSZ/E11qYI8CwIvO0AESyRmkNgp Mo4n1LqyHW44BqP2JUcwrBDd6za2F7q1DTmbvKXCQoSSsA39iDYmNlXBjk0bWuevyWO5 RZIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=3qx8Aa+YsC/0ZniPmBvPUSfvLuzS3ADgZuzCtxcL7CA=; b=KdOYitknSdWVyC79eJB+ev9mWCxtcZGq6W/FKD7mNOVqR/STH3SJr71IcijG0MgATd CY1nCoVZdi+TAum8joVuEawgGGUqzjyp+L/8I02QbitwB0lENn1v2RKDYKGk9oIv/JMX vW2CQnt58ZSyeCFXyc1CVRo5u/akdOKyEPKL3Y5Z8dNEUGpnYICVMtCJcMFTijEX+dJK 0x3I4DGdjo37ebccE+SW+N23vGUTBg/zDP7dUnsNRyPXSqVB43v4O64HqjuHj7t7Mlh+ kA9qKxgNwSt9nARtIkfhQH4kfDFLIuTy/tt5IHPr3bmqOb+NDIchVs2zSvkda5qaWhDv n7zQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytfK0smDr4yBnWpTHOIwfZsjFUFERFkI2mlUd9ZsmCghAL1x37l1 MCv6ZbRcTTNL0AyItj0+geG+QBVxl8j7WuzNCJY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224VG5BmJ2cmhVkJk+PckLFVm+2QwjLUDdz/GOrHTnJyAjUuWvhdlM2P6VyE8xwqGgVbymO5uBly5TRcsdNgGL8= X-Received: by 10.157.34.196 with SMTP id y62mr13397153ota.307.1516919802076; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:36:41 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 14:36:41 -0800 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker , lsvr@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c04f8d6f4a4240563a169d2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 22:36:44 -0000 --94eb2c04f8d6f4a4240563a169d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On January 25, 2018 at 4:15:22 PM, Fred Baker (fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com) wrote: Fred: Hi! Likewise, the charter seems reasonable. The one question I had reading it was that it seems to contain protocol details that might need to be changed in the process of working group discussion, and so should perhaps be left to the documents. I'd suggest text such as "protocol details will be as described in" whatever the right document is, "consistent with" the right RFC. Can you please provide specifics on which details you=E2=80=99re referring = to? Thanks! Alvaro. --94eb2c04f8d6f4a4240563a169d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On January 25,= 2018 at 4:15:22 PM, Fred Baker (fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com) wrote:

Fred:

Hi!

Likewise, the charter seems reasonable. The one question I= had reading it was that it seems to contain protocol details that might ne= ed to be changed in the process of working group discussion, and so should = perhaps be left to the documents. I'd suggest text such as "protoc= ol details will be as described in" whatever the right document is, &q= uot;consistent with" the right RFC.=C2=A0

Can you please provide specifics on which details you= =E2=80=99re referring to?

Thanks!

Al= varo.
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XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 17:40:42 -0500 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Alvaro Retana , Tony Li , Randy Bush CC: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "lsvr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion Thread-Index: AdOJ/UwcaD75A6yMRfGV3jqNSACMxQJ7NLIAAJMqsgAAANZIAAAAiT2AAABLGoAAAW06AAAE16GA//+t/4A= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 22:40:42 +0000 Message-ID: <3BA985D3-A670-4C5B-831B-F4BD93FF7ABC@cisco.com> References: <4DD58182-10E6-480F-A787-DE03DE089355@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.116.152.198] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3BA985D3A6704C5B831BF4BD93FF7ABCciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter 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[149.20.66.253]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p10sm10059736wrh.61.2018.01.25.15.18.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Jan 2018 15:18:40 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <84A84AF6-35B5-477C-AD36-24006A72728F@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D74564A7-CB40-4559-A693-6A8FEF95E5AD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 15:18:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: lsvr@ietf.org To: Alvaro Retana References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 23:18:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D74564A7-CB40-4559-A693-6A8FEF95E5AD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jan 25, 2018, at 2:36 PM, Alvaro Retana = wrote: >=20 > On January 25, 2018 at 4:15:22 PM, Fred Baker = (fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com) wrote: >=20 > Fred: >=20 > Hi! >=20 >> Likewise, the charter seems reasonable. The one question I had = reading it was that it seems to contain protocol details that might need = to be changed in the process of working group discussion, and so should = perhaps be left to the documents. I'd suggest text such as "protocol = details will be as described in" whatever the right document is, = "consistent with" the right RFC. >=20 > Can you please provide specifics on which details you=E2=80=99re = referring to? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Alvaro. I'm working from Gunter's initial email, which opens with > The Link-State Vector Routing (LSVR) Working Group is chartered to = develop and document a hybrid routing protocol utilizing a combination = of link-state and path-vector routing mechanisms. The LSVR WG will = utilize existing the IPv4/IPv6 transport, packet formats, and error = handling from BGP-4 (RFC4271). Additionally, the BGP-LS NLRI encoding = mechanisms defined in RFC7752 are utilized to facilitate Link-State = Vector (LSV) routing information distribution. An LSV is intended to be = specified as a data structure comprised of a link identification, link = attributes, neighbor information, cost toward neighbors, and other = attributes that are defined for control plane function and policy-based = routing decisions. I'm sure that's all true. However, I might suggest the last sentence, = the specifics of an LSV, not be a *charter* (and therefore controlling) = issue. I wouldn't want to get 80% down the way and realize we also need = something else in the LSV, and have to recharter to get it there. --Apple-Mail=_D74564A7-CB40-4559-A693-6A8FEF95E5AD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlpqZcwACgkQEhdRnd2G P+B4lxAAnHFqeWKihe8IY74vRfMNrjdHkqVDBWbCWucfvM3IENDcBMkrKfvVyqQc vBTIdK+9MfLBzk+fsyBUOcRa+bGyGqiXASYYi0ohqnspgzm/UDIf8EuHrMBMVixR UVB58TXL9pC6W+DLOfUSkYK65zXuBFJXP9nm8tUAmkqNQLgn51pyCjTnxDGGrxWx ZpkrjB5uFz2V6Z98gzx5fsVfa4lc8qmvEsGZIQXdhOTV9SLG/Va1nftzLI+JXFgj 6iL8C78JqRNTmbHJGoNCm2ss9oA/Q8UW/zwtVLzZPHrGArAuI7DDF8vjC/X7w5EK aACswlHvh0hJ0dDptSNQiTip4p9FQ4ZetXLhdA19PalmTrvTI0/puNUvVD5nMyKZ GU4ul8eeVSKGYkPWrpimFRIqUq3zjw9VE5NfjgkqLzdzUUx0COSJEx+fHGSR6OS2 YiYtvCrhChUYw4kvkp5Mv4ha9wibmvdK2s0day6zbTQAfYPasFPLrqy7xZJasi6L qs7/96HWoqTTWfX6CI1nySkCH2JYQ40QscQq0stXnPFjlzI2jbZ04uyqFeH9AjO7 v/mi8Lrmwve5c7vNqud5ZIYKedb29SAAUBpCQwKhHH6r2+FfkhCc79CZGeyG7srn 4/ph/bj6rMA+ED9NeYastpqqJjS7RRN0+3BML+ZhQUGHiFmGyX4= =VJ1X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D74564A7-CB40-4559-A693-6A8FEF95E5AD-- From nobody Thu Jan 25 20:46:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B971312D94D for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:46:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_QUOTING=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKH6b1hopslr for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:46:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DF2E12422F for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id i186so18512140wmi.4 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:46:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R0Ni/9zaA9tqArqmz5xpY0/qwKD6U29cl0gzYGKpEYo=; b=aODPHe2icPiWFqtd6K4PHFvYfmTqfOc+dXXFpK3mkVuJCA0vwx5bgbrTeK/n2y8nza 4iwGDas1BLBPaxfVN3XLkmftmWitXyGcExPXvUMn1rEVAh4vzkVPemskPlQk0mX59ZaL Snf1ylw8c1FKYF1fKTR2OFW6ERvRmKqPl15/WS85m4QWpv7nc35k6LEeQwnhVqUxdTvF v8ASSobtFC2mRU8pzv75156I7OoW4+SBr+pH3uOX8nSIA9tJEm/7DOQ4HZSxMHjLXU6m b0Bps6+TKNFBY5onTGCUK9aI7/eKkdXoFTSYZ2hvG54F9iDuIGJt+BsOqHmGK4IfHqIG 3wpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R0Ni/9zaA9tqArqmz5xpY0/qwKD6U29cl0gzYGKpEYo=; b=P3JGclW+6GozRjJ82hn1zNCA955yCCq3d4ye5Qt+CIdrQwaTX1oqh7lpQe5LIeNn1x I3qeu0hVHZ9MVRQdQVz6BghkGL1IPpaQFL6UL2+nK7/egKWD2E5uVcxIJeD7Mp+MJChb vpS+CXa0io/JUiU1y77h9TIUPhDxRZd44AtirQ27DuNi9T59jgHCZJPoNK0H7oF+53Xi Mw7+jOTgc5ELwdO2RKHgKTqEMLUqGK1e2R8BzYOiYh3KPREeXnfOZsJtRGjcHBPs0VLa RWxceyTPBmmQBjbFeasSbhRImuAHSGPT18o1bBi7/D7IQqAAYhu1EvgahzSacEL1FCqz 8U7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcoKqkqP3he9IT4Zpr5ybgJgLiNp/wXsj68kD7eF3OGk2kiraWv RW22oH4hcPJOSLafdUebHxEgJNEwTB/kaL47XYTR6rEE X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x2267HjwYfOqpE3Bk7MENFnQsZZPgUFAraNa4THmHelTv40ATZfb6GUIzXBHgBPv4XMhxEAVlz4nAGu8GXF5kTe0= X-Received: by 10.80.206.88 with SMTP id k24mr33108413edj.153.1516941976207; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:46:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.182.239 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:45:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2018 20:45:35 -0800 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1b26d4a305710563a69361" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 04:46:20 -0000 --94eb2c1b26d4a305710563a69361 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > >>> Should LSVR introduce a grouping in the way that OSPF has areas and > >>> ISIS has levels? > >> to what purpose? > > For scalability. > > i thought that is why we were using bgp. if it can't scale to this, > then let's go to the other tony. > Randy, my name is Zaphod now ... Would you like the current read out of the improbability factor? oooo$$$$$$$$$$$$oooo oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o oo$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o o$ $$ o$ o $ oo o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$o $$ $$ $$o$ oo $ $ "$ o$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$o $$$o$$o$ "$$$$$$o$ o$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$o $$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ """$$$ "$$$""""$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ "$$$ $$$ o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ "$$$o o$$" $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$o $$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$" "$$$$$$ooooo$$$$o o$$$oooo$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ o$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$"$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$"""""""" """" $$$$ "$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$" o$$$ "$$$o """$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$"$$" $$$ $$$o "$$""$$$$$$"""" o$$$ $$$$o o$$$" "$$$$o o$$$$$$o"$$$$o o$$$$ "$$$$$oo ""$$$$o$$$$$o o$$$$"" ""$$$$$oooo "$$$o$$$$$$$$$""" ""$$$$$$$oo $$$$$$$$$$ """"$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$" "$$$"""" --- tony --94eb2c1b26d4a305710563a69361 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>= wrote:
>>> Should=C2=A0 LSVR introduce a grouping in the way tha= t OSPF has areas and
>>> ISIS has levels?
>> to what purpose?
> For scalability.

i thought that is why we were using bgp.=C2=A0 if it can't scale to thi= s,
then let's go to the other tony.

Randy, my name is Zaphod now ... Would you like the current= read out
of the improbability factor?=C2=A0=C2=A0


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--- tony=C2=A0
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OsLIV0ZIZi5bn+M2XB/e/3MBNa7LAbJTKLrSLlZce2Xewr4d09smtQO7qt1Bjnv9OkWw0hqH98bSl1ZF1UpCNJhTBNlhgJO1JDL516Dnma+3DKQ720YgPDXwtMAG+iuz spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8aa85bfc-a613-4fd5-42f8-08d564977fcd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Jan 2018 08:33:38.8853 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5PR0701MB2305 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 08:33:45 -0000 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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DPaM0WLT7FGx for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2018 07:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:160]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C1D212426E for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2018 07:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-18v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.242]) by resqmta-po-01v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id f6BDe5GmVKqinf6BMeeee0; Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:44:48 +0000 Received: from [172.22.228.216] ([162.210.130.3]) by resomta-po-18v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id f69BePMRsp78pf69DeLM0p; Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:42:46 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Tony Li In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 07:42:32 -0800 Cc: Fred Baker , Alvaro Retana , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <72E12154-C3A6-4BBB-BEFC-CE0B95B580A1@tony.li> References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> <84A84AF6-35B5-477C-AD36-24006A72728F@gmail.com> To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfJFWPx44DniZMp+DrULWyHlE2W4yr0ByMZhCWlg+elATd75DDTVng8VqPKqDzIljVXo4SKjiMQIBpm/+84qKKKd0fsE+JmuUjocx4A0VRXnAZ6hRwQBS m6QnZyij3YUZChYOP6ymHI8/yVI/HDblszyrktsyUs8neol8AnPfiJVWbPqXb0I4iFPXecBRRJgZ2/04RuaemV8JHHRBFgzcbuVJqUBSpvryt7LSUR6+4YV/ Rsu8Qz9eU4qeMJBxIwQZKb7uh9TGCpPU3FQn7eMR1zI= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2018 15:44:50 -0000 >> I'm sure that's all true. However, I might suggest the last sentence, = the specifics of an LSV, not=20 >> be a *charter* (and therefore controlling) issue. I > wouldn't want = to get 80% down the >> way and realize we also need something else in the LSV, and have to = recharter to get it there. >=20 > I'm not sure I understand what you are referencing. For a link state = protocol, one needs to know: > * Who is my neighbor > * how am I connected my neighbor > * What is the cost to my neighbor >=20 > Next the charter text describes " and other attributes that are = defined for control plane function and policy-based routing decisions". > Are there aspects regarding the link state construct which falls = outside the above text?=20 > I agree, that if there is chance that something is extra is needed, = that the charter should accommodate that. At the moment I am not = convinced that is the case. Please advice. I guess a key point here is whether or not we want to constrain the work = that strictly. There=E2=80=99s good reason to think that a pure path vector IGP is also = possible and might well be preferable to an LSVR. Do we want to broaden = the charter to consider that part of the solution space? Right now, the charter is about a solution, not about a problem. In = bounding the solution, we may steer ourselves away from alternate, = preferable solutions. Tony From nobody Tue Jan 30 10:07:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5FF12F2B2 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:07:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KlyiaFdPyACt for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x235.google.com (mail-ot0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 380F212ECAE for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x235.google.com with SMTP id l5so4689074otj.11 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:06:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NNLJHt3akpHL5Dll8UY9KURs5eedd9e7KLyCzJ4lJPU=; b=ve62ok0uaXaPz94fiVj+71CLU8p5M0Cue0SPwwYB7imReOc8KYOZehbyGCkVG0eOTT xLgKWF0+b1dEpVgdM3Pj6dqHkGs8s49MgIVQdmCyhP7LKlWLPb850sYHBuE8cwGw3Duu ht2bozwrhD4F7+OLtmTWKC0yHGBhSLH23MvbXDYiU6J7g2as3KRDKdJcTqraUDERMvoL V1YcNXnel0r3gHJUvzJYeHVoVwfRFH9FQzKB4Tvuz2OhEh5MPXSq1hd9Nx6fB6PLGagi IzCu4nbM0PUm7mRQ/bjFFB/V6UPYmDkNBuhZNg4WVaZgZ8GbNTf4GqvMG0aQsKXn10Zs yerw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NNLJHt3akpHL5Dll8UY9KURs5eedd9e7KLyCzJ4lJPU=; b=OuSoFPFB50DlObv4eRosDMBsXD+Jf2KAOUSznBvScOon7cBzTXV/DdY76XMw00Xs6i wPDozs4IkjbNzz2H2I3WLdQmq607io88H3WRI7g3Zcunz3TAeGNe7CSWQkWANeHCDHAG t9QlZCJKk8xTyHYaySLG67y1NZRn0UuZ16aBVuwiQ6huJ9Yw6MdMG1BmoD+6oq2XkkPR MHuPeEZUE9N2nopYfDk+8gTu5u1rqAlJrImregP9dXhllvnBi2MuEl8I1UCMkEFHQd4n 8CZrkVBx5doMXWMVfLJ2oCskleGvEgsA5sTaFMeVjmYRs1pNHPa87TbcLu+VszaV9meR ySLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcclGCkhf1e7VfHaVBJBljUIkpwry2YFysbf1xv/mQsv2saJY8Q 7+PpHBViL/dzmWI451gTHdgnlaSvfd/XU8VhzCw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225kySePg+Wp6qsno1cMLH8bkXmD5cZoy1BElP9dPOoQ0MRfZ8S7hn9TuYk/FN6Sl5OI18jc6TKBZmfAwSOYM0A= X-Received: by 10.157.48.108 with SMTP id w41mr21134784otd.289.1517335565545; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:06:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 13:06:04 -0500 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <72E12154-C3A6-4BBB-BEFC-CE0B95B580A1@tony.li> References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> <84A84AF6-35B5-477C-AD36-24006A72728F@gmail.com> <72E12154-C3A6-4BBB-BEFC-CE0B95B580A1@tony.li> X-Mailer: Airmail (467) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 13:06:04 -0500 Message-ID: To: Tony Li , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Cc: Fred Baker , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ac6f463bd4a05640237f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 18:07:28 -0000 --001a113ac6f463bd4a05640237f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On January 26, 2018 at 10:44:48 AM, Tony Li (tony.li@tony.li) wrote: Tony: Hi! There=E2=80=99s good reason to think that a pure path vector IGP is also po= ssible and might well be preferable to an LSVR. Do we want to broaden the charter to consider that part of the solution space? Right now, the charter is about a solution, not about a problem. In bounding the solution, we may steer ourselves away from alternate, preferable solutions. Routing in a DC is too broad =E2=80=94 so instead we chose to focus on spec= ific solutions (the proposals behind lsvr and rift), which is why the charters are the way they are (focused on solutions and not problems). Also, while I think there is interest in the solutions, the real proof will come from active participation in the WGs. This brings me to think that focusing the work should result in measurable progress, in the short term. The intent is then to charter work that can reasonably be completed in about 12-18 months. After that, we can think about making the scope of the WG broader. I do agree with you in that we could be steering ourselves away from other solutions =E2=80=94 but at the same time a broader initial charter could re= sult in scope creep and lack of focus. Having said that =E2=80=94 I will be starting the Internal Review of the ch= arter this week with the goal of having a WG up and running before we get to London. Thanks! Alvaro. --001a113ac6f463bd4a05640237f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
On January 26,= 2018 at 10:44:48 AM, Tony Li (tony.li@t= ony.li) wrote:

Tony:

Hi!

= There=E2=80=99s good reason to think that a pure path vector IGP is also po= ssible and might well be preferable to an LSVR. Do we want to broaden the c= harter to consider that part of the solution space?=C2=A0

Right now, the charter is about a solution, not about a problem. In = bounding the solution, we may steer ourselves away from alternate, preferab= le solutions.=C2=A0

Routing in a= DC is too broad =E2=80=94 so instead we chose to focus on specific solutio= ns (the proposals behind lsvr and rift), which is why the charters are the = way they are (focused on solutions and not problems).=C2=A0 Also, while I t= hink there is interest in the solutions, the real proof will come from acti= ve participation in the WGs.=C2=A0 This brings me to think that focusing th= e work should result in measurable progress, in the short term.=C2=A0 The i= ntent is then to charter work that can reasonably be completed in about 12-= 18 months.=C2=A0 After that, we can think about making the scope of the WG = broader.

I do agree with you in that = we could be steering ourselves away from other solutions=C2=A0=E2=80=94 but= at the same time a=C2=A0broader initial charter could result in scope cree= p and lack of focus.

Having said that= =C2=A0=E2=80=94 I will be starting the Internal Review of the charter this = week with the goal of having a WG up and running before we get to London.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--001a113ac6f463bd4a05640237f9-- From nobody Tue Jan 30 10:21:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369EC12EA53 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:21:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zKBqrsDLtj_H for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-04v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-04v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 708511200C1 for ; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-19v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.243]) by resqmta-po-04v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id gaX5eFrL475iOgaXAepDip; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 18:21:28 +0000 Received: from [172.22.228.216] ([162.210.130.3]) by resomta-po-19v.sys.comcast.net with SMTP id gaUzeqZh6ysvigaV1e7Ztp; Tue, 30 Jan 2018 18:19:26 +0000 From: Tony Li Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7D445966-4A8C-419A-815E-9896DB193E6B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:19:12 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , Fred Baker , "lsvr@ietf.org" To: Alvaro Retana References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> <84A84AF6-35B5-477C-AD36-24006A72728F@gmail.com> <72E12154-C3A6-4BBB-BEFC-CE0B95B580A1@tony.li> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDiuf+NeIBLHhyNG7Vn7GCr0bP5FfNks0oDSZ4apre5ca3VpVFpOi8Vv1fJZDtqRzYxTvJkHKE6hHlQpK77uuALsiNCNCBKB5HHwCchxbeCzCV6n9LBg 4npy1tT9nqEnun5AQSW2QpjLvfKgMN3vAGNYe+qc9pzCqqRDYn8tx5YAgP/SSkapV/TDkrR9VHPA8wn9oNvFNE/ZqmUsHFqVUHecBj2PHHsjufOHz3bhVtVc JyCao5hhWXUsmKK/NL9wTSAyzBYhf/lmX2i4fXDzJig= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 18:21:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7D445966-4A8C-419A-815E-9896DB193E6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Routing in a DC is too broad =E2=80=94 so instead we chose to focus on = specific solutions (the proposals behind lsvr and rift), which is why = the charters are the way they are (focused on solutions and not = problems). Also, while I think there is interest in the solutions, the = real proof will come from active participation in the WGs. This brings = me to think that focusing the work should result in measurable progress, = in the short term. The intent is then to charter work that can = reasonably be completed in about 12-18 months. After that, we can think = about making the scope of the WG broader. > I do agree with you in that we could be steering ourselves away from = other solutions =E2=80=94 but at the same time a broader initial charter = could result in scope creep and lack of focus. >=20 > Having said that =E2=80=94 I will be starting the Internal Review of = the charter this week with the goal of having a WG up and running before = we get to London. >=20 Fair enough. We await your wisdom.=20 Tony --Apple-Mail=_7D445966-4A8C-419A-815E-9896DB193E6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

Routing in a DC = is too broad =E2=80=94 so instead we chose to focus on specific = solutions (the proposals behind lsvr and rift), which is why the = charters are the way they are (focused on solutions and not = problems).  Also, while I think there is interest in the solutions, = the real proof will come from active participation in the WGs.  = This brings me to think that focusing the work should result in = measurable progress, in the short term.  The intent is then to = charter work that can reasonably be completed in about 12-18 = months.  After that, we can think about making the scope of the WG = broader.

I do agree with you in that we could be = steering ourselves away from other solutions =E2=80=94 but at the = same time a broader initial charter could result in scope creep and = lack of focus.

Having said that =E2=80=94 I will be = starting the Internal Review of the charter this week with the goal of = having a WG up and running before we get to = London.


Fair enough.  We await your wisdom. 

Tony

= --Apple-Mail=_7D445966-4A8C-419A-815E-9896DB193E6B-- From nobody Wed Jan 31 10:54:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8554112EC9B for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:54:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4dMCsiuBYJwH for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4311012ECAE for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id l29so16113395qkj.8 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:54:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OdHMJREPnhl9WQ0gG1M6mK50e2lFZIKgI/MaKxZKV6s=; b=UUC8XoJUBvzgbESdfwxsheNJRG/gOgWP/GYfE585krjNORD1sVVLhkvuUSofZPWyO/ 7ATAZfFb/STYUMX2EWeq7BgTNprlXwpcQmzjxToUy8aZMIjxyDOVFvrg7zdlfoUpEWRu ihptG+EiOKhMEJrXDFez4nshTFOtPc1NONNqVr69eOGnhQjc+KdZCwJRruiUFaWwD50D V+TSJj2rJfBfVlr4O7tuRSWBFUBJtTfi37oN/g3+fF63d3JHpHzc5+0jZUgx0/esn904 a84cZl32AQMtqddBBtLpVY8L+I2HlhCUjfr7OOGBbiiTtz4fZmTEGwKKBEOcKZK3OPC7 /bbw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OdHMJREPnhl9WQ0gG1M6mK50e2lFZIKgI/MaKxZKV6s=; b=ltpZBXl2ywR3kM8BqGT3+iMhZoLhamiPcwDSBue7d6AwfPSuxksZ2Lo3qnyHLpczMY Naim843b9QMDQskbGgl6/jLnfzBL1eoYD+vxwzG0hFSYygZnTh/FdWCPRjVu6PBR0O+b /n9EOlv59qhsOJrQoUVI7r91Lfy+R+gyNgi+eZAeDUtRlmi5E3ODq5sfReLMtFSLPPTN Fsxn6iTWeFn2RS9TJbMtHSrFN/vwojn2bNIvWVXWrpQQ6b4skNrWzpD5DTtNilX9m66T kk7UHW2XZHt2eWFtXLiXr85CVyqSUivofngdmZhGD3x4GsEroVfbwOkt383x3t5ciBP7 k57g== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytdKnHskvjdUqkhchtetf6khY5tjr0qTmOUq6eAnaSqB8wm0ticG xhUYPcp27vZQT1JyOMsb7QNe9WCZCHw4kSueHA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224MBijZcpllTs37Z8es5EDeD9Xsgj37EwCu2QjTn3nCpirz5om9ejqrkNpnXiD/S2QZ4FW7a1my/n2UYGk7ow4= X-Received: by 10.55.16.196 with SMTP id 65mr51413298qkq.110.1517424873432; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:54:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.52.36 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:54:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <5A61AA43-8C1F-48AB-A984-817FBE1A0419@gmail.com> <89774842-3726-4F74-85B0-FD4F2DFBE46B@gmail.com> <84A84AF6-35B5-477C-AD36-24006A72728F@gmail.com> <72E12154-C3A6-4BBB-BEFC-CE0B95B580A1@tony.li> From: Yingzhen Qu Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 10:54:32 -0800 Message-ID: To: Tony Li Cc: Alvaro Retana , Fred Baker , "lsvr@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1146f31a8deb9305641702f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] Kicking off the LSVR (Link State Vector Routing) charter discussion X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 18:54:39 -0000 --001a1146f31a8deb9305641702f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The charter looks good. I think it's a good starting point and I'm looking forward to working on it. Thanks, Yingzhen On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Tony Li wrote: > > > Routing in a DC is too broad =E2=80=94 so instead we chose to focus on sp= ecific > solutions (the proposals behind lsvr and rift), which is why the charters > are the way they are (focused on solutions and not problems). Also, whil= e > I think there is interest in the solutions, the real proof will come from > active participation in the WGs. This brings me to think that focusing t= he > work should result in measurable progress, in the short term. The intent > is then to charter work that can reasonably be completed in about 12-18 > months. After that, we can think about making the scope of the WG broade= r. > > I do agree with you in that we could be steering ourselves away from othe= r > solutions =E2=80=94 but at the same time a broader initial charter could = result in > scope creep and lack of focus. > > Having said that =E2=80=94 I will be starting the Internal Review of the = charter > this week with the goal of having a WG up and running before we get to > London. > > > Fair enough. We await your wisdom. > > Tony > > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > --001a1146f31a8deb9305641702f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

The charter looks good. I think= it's a good starting point and I'm looking forward to working on i= t.

Thanks,
Yingzhen

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 10= :19 AM, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> wrote:


Routing in a DC is too broad =E2=80=94 so instead we c= hose to focus on specific solutions (the proposals behind lsvr and rift), w= hich is why the charters are the way they are (focused on solutions and not= problems).=C2=A0 Also, while I think there is interest in the solutions, t= he real proof will come from active participation in the WGs.=C2=A0 This br= ings me to think that focusing the work should result in measurable progres= s, in the short term.=C2=A0 The intent is then to charter work that can rea= sonably be completed in about 12-18 months.=C2=A0 After that, we can think = about making the scope of the WG broader.

I do agree with you in that we could be steering ourselves a= way from other solutions=C2=A0=E2=80=94 but at the same time a=C2=A0broader= initial charter could result in scope creep and lack of focus.

<= p style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;fon= t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s= tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p= x">Having said that=C2=A0=E2=80=94 I will be start= ing the Internal Review of the charter this week with the goal of having a = WG up and running before we get to London.


Fair enough.=C2=A0 We await your wisdom.=C2=A0

Tony


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