From nobody Mon Apr 1 07:03:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852D5120147 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 07:03:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dt6KXscrl-At for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 07:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22c.google.com (mail-oi1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF73B120074 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2019 07:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id v7so7313581oie.8 for ; Mon, 01 Apr 2019 07:03:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vZIio6rdd9R/TOqIL9FzOEgJZvu0sqontpH5v9b/sQU=; b=k94cZhrmU1sCtZ8+8mLYVrhSnl0AXCqS4OupTzEDozEJJXKgg2vlKJQl4H7ZURdd9O vopiz6pQbJVILtQ2F4HqwA7xAfqudXLLYxoHmFpr7M5aXf+89+nmJyk7l2YX6lNqunzI N2DP5Wkcm6P0cRQ+GbqnspzKrd5YuxbtP9zvZwVVmrvFaBeeRpVz6Hy6urHi2eflSFJo 8jwuBzXKAvzCcoPmevOWGk5n001idTiva5Jvr0xQOI8bab8zYHloz7YhrilsJUovaVDf uq/CCfHU0Ss4OUSQAu02vfeBWN1e1AmuvCbtfRatA6em0VSD5hQKlZ/wdKmuO22fwW+7 K0lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=vZIio6rdd9R/TOqIL9FzOEgJZvu0sqontpH5v9b/sQU=; b=LduuC3k7EqjIIw0D28I2WqWOb8mO2YGoAjm71Nptn6uf84DN7AiUHZXKf6kCRNMnCO K+HsnDMxACmn7QmnfXfp8BfjZcA78htR5U5VHBiY3EZfbLqtID/y8nsSoOgZsOGJd2M1 61d3J0aOB8cQdNEyo9c2GKa9mi8xKbNybTW5wjw9gwjEROWSVZBVqYctWqr53Li64vdb jUEbD2rtBYVari2vYqXTbPOfiYuC7EMC3BB/n+YkSwmrvRqCCv2HJWU7ewO2qDtDQm1Y aiYVBZRORqyJ8D38LVT83IXCg8uuBYmX99yPZkx48wMdfJVKdCoXPsLSSYAXttKNRsaQ upoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXObqUX3x8+gmV16Ymm1YRmN3rzwgTpHsNrgT4SnXLuNcV9UyED HkgVWR3L9N1JsOOw1l8J+K9YeHecKH9m6b4+qHBOHDJ32wA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxbbNg4Pf5gjxUvjckTm2UPB2wyn0iZZIRwxB0HhlLCGTUPsLcD9QeJ5PKmpSiCt5e/mcDVlg3PqivLh5E5GgQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5bd7:: with SMTP id p206mr13435089oib.128.1554127394578; Mon, 01 Apr 2019 07:03:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Victor Kuarsingh Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 10:03:03 -0400 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush , "lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a36fd0585787b8b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] lsoe security: tofu, hierarchy, ...? X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2019 14:03:19 -0000 --0000000000004a36fd0585787b8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Randy, Thanks for starting the conversation. I will have some additional input for you very soon. It will include more data on the security front as well as attributes desirable for hosts to send to first hop network router. Regards, Victor K On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 8:24 PM Randy Bush wrote: > so it's time to get serious about lsoe security. > > currently, the OPEN PDU contains a variable length Authentication Data > blob. > > we want to sign all PDUs; though maybe not the KEEPALIVE. as KEEPALIVEs > are frequent, we may want to keep them small and not have the crypto > overhead of validating them. worth discussing. > > i have repeatedly asked for the threat model behind folk's desire for > PDU security. perhaps an illustration of two possible paths would help > clarify why i am undecided. > > Trust On First Use, AKA TOFU: the OPEN might have a key, symmetric > or asymmetric, which is automaticaly trusted by the other party, and > is used to sign all subsequent PDUs. the security provided is that > you know you are talking to the same party as the one with whom you > OPENed. > > CA Hierarchy: the clos could have a CA which signs per-device > certificates. each device would have a (chain to the) root cert by > which it could verify the public key in the OPEN and all PDU > signatures. this provides a stronger trust model than TOFU, but is > more complex in that one has to maintain a CA hierarchy, have good > key signing and distribution mechanisms, anticipate key rolls, etc. > > surely there are other models. i am just trying to illustrate. > > i have this fantasy about finessing the draft in such a way that either > could be used. but fear that the result would be underspecified to the > extent that security reviewers would not be happy. > > feedback time! > > randy > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > --0000000000004a36fd0585787b8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Randy,

Thanks for starting the conversatio= n.=C2=A0

I will have some additional = input for you very soon.=C2=A0 It will include more data on the security fr= ont as well as attributes desirable for hosts to send to first hop network = router.

Regards,

Victor K

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019= at 8:24 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
so it's time to get serious about lsoe security.

currently, the OPEN PDU contains a variable length Authentication Data
blob.

we want to sign all PDUs; though maybe not the KEEPALIVE.=C2=A0 as KEEPALIV= Es
are frequent, we may want to keep them small and not have the crypto
overhead of validating them.=C2=A0 worth discussing.

i have repeatedly asked for the threat model behind folk's desire for PDU security.=C2=A0 perhaps an illustration of two possible paths would hel= p
clarify why i am undecided.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Trust On First Use, AKA TOFU: the OPEN might have a key, symm= etric
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 or asymmetric, which is automaticaly trusted by the other par= ty, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is used to sign all subsequent PDUs.=C2=A0 the security provi= ded is that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 you know you are talking to the same party as the one with wh= om you
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 OPENed.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 CA Hierarchy: the clos could have a CA which signs per-device=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 certificates.=C2=A0 each device would have a (chain to the) r= oot cert by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which it could verify the public key in the OPEN and all PDU<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signatures.=C2=A0 this provides a stronger trust model than T= OFU, but is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 more complex in that one has to maintain a CA hierarchy, have= good
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 key signing and distribution mechanisms, anticipate key rolls= , etc.

surely there are other models.=C2=A0 i am just trying to illustrate.

i have this fantasy about finessing the draft in such a way that either
could be used.=C2=A0 but fear that the result would be underspecified to th= e
extent that security reviewers would not be happy.

feedback time!

randy

_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr
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Wed, 24 Apr 2019 02:51:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: lsvr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.95.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lsvr@ietf.org Message-ID: <155609946539.32047.6741687649495369919@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 02:51:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Lsvr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00.txt X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:51:06 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Link State Vector Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Layer 3 Discovery and Liveness Authors : Randy Bush Rob Austein Keyur Patel Filename : draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2019-04-23 Abstract: In Massive Data Centers (MDCs), BGP-SPF and similar routing protocols are used to build topology and reachability databases. These protocols need to discover IP Layer 3 attributes of links, such as logical link IP encapsulation abilities, IP neighbor address discovery, and link liveness. The Layer 3 Discovery and Liveness protocol specified in this document collects these data, which are then disseminated using BGP-SPF and similar protocols. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Apr 24 02:57:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lsvr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2670120316 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 02:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p_ITLDUTE7ko for ; Wed, 24 Apr 2019 02:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr30129.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.3.129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F7E9120059 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:AM0SPR01MB0037; H:AM0PR07MB5137.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: genwxlpPbCWfsXmglzJJmj4713uBxUat2wS+TKM6SfjeZAF7Fenc6VCzqfGsHhqxC5UtAkWeWu5OBPhE7YmTBPCj+dJfU8R8O3ez7h3htf3N9y4Fdqj3YYE80XI75UEOS0oSQz2CWXR8a0JKO1OB7IsGrJ/i6h9Ekplt3l4bS3U91iX+aOrFQ/AvVkqQyzTM0P83BXcLHSdZjBzxOVwl67YzhmJmmjYyIiG7QQA8rkFqPwCGCNOY6C4Q/rhxpmQBMmAc7qyGr+/bGG4xyFk+nShf/gJKsBoionN11mq+O/YF0XHWjpLxvXwsIQ2zZ8Uru3HSRWXV7zzPJ+LLwUZLCEgqy83gj9M1wH6W2b2Whm+wVnH24VJOIVMeOK9LdVZu5KhyGZFXg+YIiMYlM0W084lk1DK53afP6nZyGuwTjvA= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1d349d7b-265a-48ba-ad1a-08d6c89b4bf4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Apr 2019 09:57:43.8566 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0SPR01MB0037 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Lsvr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00.txt X-BeenThere: lsvr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Link State Vector Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:57:49 -0000 Hi All, This is revised of draft-ietf-lsvr-lsoe to reflect better the content of th= e work included. As such this draft updates draft-ietf-lsvr-lsoe-01 Brgds, G/ -----Original Message----- From: Lsvr On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 11:51 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: lsvr@ietf.org Subject: [Lsvr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Link State Vector Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Layer 3 Discovery and Liveness Authors : Randy Bush Rob Austein Keyur Patel Filename : draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2019-04-23 Abstract: In Massive Data Centers (MDCs), BGP-SPF and similar routing protocols are used to build topology and reachability databases. These protocols need to discover IP Layer 3 attributes of links, such as logical link IP encapsulation abilities, IP neighbor address discovery, and link liveness. The Layer 3 Discovery and Liveness protocol specified in this document collects these data, which are then disseminated using BGP-SPF and similar protocols. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ Lsvr mailing list Lsvr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr