Subject: RE: Initial requirements for long-term archive I-D - wording: Tru sted archiving ?

From: Tobias Gondrom <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:20:33 +0100

Hello, 

I would like to discuss in section 2 "Terminology" the name "Trusted
Archiving" and TAA:

This name "Trusted" is somehow confusing for me. For me "Trusted" implies
that the archive is a somehow trusted third party that needs some evalutions
by some government authority. I don't think that such is necessary. All the
mechanisms to ensure the integrity of the data can be based on the
trustworthyness of the TSP (that has to be a trusted third party as changing
e.g. the time of the server would be disasterous).

Of course the documents have to be stored and it has to be taken care that
the needed steps of resigning are taken but all this is normal business.

For that I would prefer if we could change the names from :

"Trusted Archiving" to "Archiving" 
And from: "Trusted Archive Authority" to "Archive Authority" or "Archive
Service"

Best regards

	Tobias

Tobias Gondrom
Senior Software Architect
Engineering

IXOS Software AG
Technopark Neukeferloh
Bretonischer Ring 12
D-85630 Grasbrunn/München

E-Mail: [email-masked]
WWW: http://www.ixos.com <http://www.ixos.com> 
Tel: +49-89-4629-1816
Fax: +49-89-4629-33-1816

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---

From: Paul-André PAYS <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:10:43 +0100

My 2 cts,

    * on one hand I agree with you the archive need not (in all cases)
      be operated by a third party (a separate legal entity with
      official gov'tal evaluation and possibly certification), it only
      requires the level of "separation of power" appropriate for the
      specific evidence creation context and requirements. When I say it
      only requires the appropriate independance, this should be
      understood as a very strong statement in many environments. For
      example in B2C transactions, because i) you can't expect the
      C(onsumer) side to reliably "archive" its own documents or "data
      certificates" on its Information System made of a single home PC,
      and ii) the "entity" owning the archive has the technical ability
      and power to "delete" these "evidences" and pretend these never
      existed; in this case it really has to be an independant party 
      (no capital letters, but 100% independant from B).
    * on the other hand -my understanding- this archive service must be
      completely reliable so that the concerned entities can "trust" it.
      Thus for me, "*trusted archiving*" is i) equivalent to "reliable
      archival service" (in a given context) and does not mean
      (necessarily) "Third Party".

In short, I feel confortable with today terminology as long as a 
glossary is provided which explains the semantic attached to each of 
these terms (for example along the line of my above understanding), and 
pinpoints the fact that the actual official nature (appropriately 
separate archival service in some cases, effective trusted third party 
in others) is completely context dependant. The context is the legal 
context with the requirements for "evidence creation".
LTANS should focus on technical solutions and not on these "legal" 
environments.
I you consider that the term "trusted" conveys too much third party 
meening, I would accept "reliable archive" as long as it is explained 
that reliable is not only related technical reliability but also 
includes the appropriate independance (buwinesswise and legaly wise)

-- PAP

Tobias Gondrom wrote:

> This name "Trusted" is somehow confusing for me. For me "Trusted" 
> implies that the archive is a somehow trusted third party that needs 
> some evalutions by some government authority. I don't think that such 
> is necessary. All the mechanisms to ensure the integrity of the data 
> can be based on the trustworthyness of the TSP (that has to be a 
> trusted third party as changing e.g. the time of the server would be 
> disasterous).
>
> Of course the documents have to be stored and it has to be taken care 
> that the needed steps of resigning are taken but all this is normal 
> business.
>
> And from: "Trusted Archive Authority" to "Archive Authority" or 
> "Archive Service"
>
> Best regards
>
>         Tobias
>
>
>
>
> Tobias Gondrom
> *IXOS Software AG*
> E-Mail:_ [email-masked]
> WWW:_ __http://www.ixos.com_
> Tel: +49-89-4629-1816
> Fax: +49-89-4629-33-1816
>
> This eMail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If 
> you are not the intended recipient or have received this eMail in 
> error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this eMail. 
> Any use, disclosure or distribution of the material in this eMail is 
> strictly forbidden.
>
> Informationen. Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese 
> eMail irrtümlich erhalten haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den 
> Absender und vernichten Sie diese eMail. Jegliche Art der Verwendung, 
> Vervielfältigung oder Weitergabe ist nicht gestattet.
>

-- 
Paul-André PAYS                 [email-masked]   ou  [email-masked]
Directeur 			EdelWeb & Pôle Sécurité Groupe ON-X
http://www.edelweb.fr/          http://www.on-x.com/
tel: +33 1 40 99 29 55          fax : +33 1 40 99 03 30
-----
Pour vérifier la signature : https://www.openevidence.org/OEROOT-ca.der

---

From: "Carl Wallace" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:22:40 -0500

Service" 

The word "trusted" provides a hint that something more than simple storage
of the data is going on (even if the actual trust is in the TSA).  Also, an
Archive Authority must be trusted if it is providing trust anchor
information.

---

From: Brian Hunter <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:26:54 +0100

> of the data is going on (even if the actual trust is in the TSA).  Also, an

I agree.  The differentiation between a simple archive service (only 
document storage) and an archive service that obtains evidence of 
document existence is important.

 > Archive Authority must be trusted if it is providing trust anchor

I am not sure I follow this point.  What would this trust anchor 
information be?

Regards,
Brian

---

From: "Carl Wallace" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:15:59 -0500

> 
>  > Archive Authority must be trusted if it is providing trust 
> anchor  > information.
> 

When verifying signatures that accrue over time, trust anchors may be
necessary that are not active at the time of verification.  An archive could
serve as a repository for past trust anchors.  An archive acting in this
capacity would need to be trusted.