Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions

From: "HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:16:30 +0200

Ok then, it's all clear to me now.
Thanks a lot for spending time to explain.

Best regards,
Loïc 

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Tobias Gondrom [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Envoyé : vendredi 29 avril 2005 18:11
> À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS
> Cc : [email-masked]; A. Jerman Blazic
> Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> 
> Loïc,
> 
> Maybe to provide further info:
> 
> > Well, it's more clear to me now...
> > ERS just proposes a syntax for EV that can be used by CSM to kepp
> > electronic signature valid.
> > But according to RFC-3126, ES-A is a format that reech the 
> same target
> > than ERS in CMS.
> 
> Yes. In some way ES-A in RFC3126 is trying to achieve the same. 
> With ES-A you can try to "re-sign" a signed file with a new 
> layer wrapped around it every time a cryptographic algorithm 
> gets weak (respectively before) - the concept is quite 
> obvious and well thought for the use case to store only a 
> limited number of signed documents. 
> 
> As Aleksej already described ERS also enables the possibility 
> for long-term non repudiation and integrity. 
> Second aspect of ERS is that it scales for large volumes of 
> signed documents. With ES-A you have to wrap around every 
> file another layer. 
> With ERS you just create new hashtrees - which is if you 
> think of e.g. about 10^6 to 10^9 documents a lot better 
> concerning performance. (especially if only e.g. a public key 
> algorithm gets weak or a used key length is no longer sufficient.)
> 
> Concerning RFC3126: From my opinion it is not necessary that 
> ERS will obsolete ES-A. But I surely expect that many big 
> storage, Document Management System and ECM vendors will 
> implement ERS and not ES-A. So in B2B and B2C we will most 
> probably seeing a lot of ERS.
> 
> The coexistence of ES-A and ERS will be something to discuss 
> when ERS is finally an RFC.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 	Tobias
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > So my question is, if i want to archive signature, i have the choice
> > between RFC3126 ES-A or ERS in CMS. Am I right ?
> > 
> > If I am, will ES-A be obsoleted by ERS in CSM (as shown in 
> Appendix A in
> > [ers-02])  ?
> > 
> > But be sure that I understand ERS is more than just a way 
> to maintain a
> > singature valid.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Loïc
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > > Envoyé : vendredi 29 avril 2005 11:48
> > > À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS; [email-masked]
> > > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > >
> > > Loic
> > >
> > > This is what I didn't state. You have to distinguish the
> > > level of the two
> > > approaches. ERS deals mainly with providing syntax on (time)
> > > evidence and
> > > evidence on integrity of a data, while RFC3126 provides data
> > > strucutre for
> > > long term validity of a digital signatures. In this case RFC
> > > can rely on ERS
> > > for time and integrity evidence of a signature, so it is a
> > > more low level
> > > syntax. Or in other words, if you equip CMS with accredited
> > > time, you can
> > > ged basic ERS structure (of course ERS is more than that:
> > > e.g. grouping and
> > > hash trees). This is why I said the approaches of LTANS 
> vs. XAdES are
> > > somehow different, while addressing similar problems.
> > >
> > > BR
> > >
> > > Aleksej
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > > [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > > > Sent: 29. april 2005 11:24
> > > > To: A. Jerman Blazic; [email-masked]
> > > > Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > >
> > > > Aleksej,
> > > > Thanks for your reply.
> > > >
> > > > So, to demonstrate the existantce and stability of signature
> > > > on particular, there will be two ways in PKIX community:
> > > > One using rfc3126, one with ERS attribute within a CMS
> > > > signature object. Am I wrong ?
> > > >
> > > > Loïc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]] Envoyé :
> > > > vendredi 29
> > > > > avril 2005 11:08 À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS;
> > > [email-masked]
> > > > > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Loic
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be very careful here. XAdES for example is like the
> > > > name says:
> > > > > syntax for extended signature, which builds on top of a
> > > > signature and
> > > > > includes all needed complementary data to provide long term
> > > > stability
> > > > > of digital signatures. The LTANS position, as I understand it,
> > > > > distances from such approach and deals with long term
> > > stability of
> > > > > data. ERS in this case defines requirements on how to
> > > > demonstrate the
> > > > > existence and stability of data (not signature on
> > > particular) on a
> > > > > timeline. It does not define the data structure nor the
> > > > syntax and at
> > > > > the moment you can freely use any interpretation of an
> > > > evidence record
> > > > > including CMS. But XAdES? I am not so sure....
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Aleksej
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: [email-masked]
> > > > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
> > > HOUSSIER Loic
> > > > > > RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > > > > Sent: 29. april 2005 10:46
> > > > > > To: [email-masked]
> > > > > > Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reading ERS_02, I have question :
> > > > > > It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be
> > > stored as
> > > > > > another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS
> > > > or XADES)
> > > > > > do ER as part of the Archive.
> > > > > > But Is it compliant with ERS ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Loïc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > > > De : [email-masked]
> > > > > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de
> > > > > > > [email-masked] Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005
> > > > 21:29 À :
> > > > > > > [email-masked] Cc : [email-masked] Objet : I-D
> > > > > > > ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > > > directories.
> > > > > > > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and
> > > > > > Notary Services
> > > > > > > Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > > > > > > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > > > > > > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > > > 	Pages		: 25
> > > > > > > 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and
> > > > prove the
> > > > > > >    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally
> > > > > > signed data,
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > >    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly
> > > > > > undetermined
> > > > > > >    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and
> > > > > > processing
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term
> > > > non-repudiation of
> > > > > > >    existence of data, which particularly can be used for
> > > > > > conservation
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >    evidence of digitally signed data.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > > >
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a
> > > > > > message to
> > > > > > > [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in
> > > > > > the body of
> > > > > > > the message.
> > > > > > > You can also visit
> > > > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > > > > > > to change your subscription settings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP.
> > > > > Login with the
> > > > > > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail
> > > > address. After
> > > > > > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > > > > > 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> > > > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Send a message to:
> > > > > > > 	[email-masked].
> > > > > > > In the body type:
> > > > > > > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return 
> the document in
> > > > > > > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.
> > > >  To use this
> > > > > > > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime"
> > > > before the "FILE"
> > > > > > > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will
> > > > need "munpack" or
> > > > > > > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant
> > > > > > mail readers
> > > > > > > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > > > > > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which
> > > > have been split
> > > > > > > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local
> > > > documentation on
> > > > > > > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > > > mail reader
> > > > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > > > version of the
> > > > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:16:30 +0200
From: "HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS" <[email-masked]>
To: "Tobias Gondrom" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>, "A. Jerman Blazic" <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Ok then, it's all clear to me now.
Thanks a lot for spending time to explain.

Best regards,
Loïc 

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Tobias Gondrom [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Envoyé : vendredi 29 avril 2005 18:11
> À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS
> Cc : [email-masked]; A. Jerman Blazic
> Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> 
> Loïc,
> 
> Maybe to provide further info:
> 
> > Well, it's more clear to me now...
> > ERS just proposes a syntax for EV that can be used by CSM to kepp
> > electronic signature valid.
> > But according to RFC-3126, ES-A is a format that reech the 
> same target
> > than ERS in CMS.
> 
> Yes. In some way ES-A in RFC3126 is trying to achieve the same. 
> With ES-A you can try to "re-sign" a signed file with a new 
> layer wrapped around it every time a cryptographic algorithm 
> gets weak (respectively before) - the concept is quite 
> obvious and well thought for the use case to store only a 
> limited number of signed documents. 
> 
> As Aleksej already described ERS also enables the possibility 
> for long-term non repudiation and integrity. 
> Second aspect of ERS is that it scales for large volumes of 
> signed documents. With ES-A you have to wrap around every 
> file another layer. 
> With ERS you just create new hashtrees - which is if you 
> think of e.g. about 10^6 to 10^9 documents a lot better 
> concerning performance. (especially if only e.g. a public key 
> algorithm gets weak or a used key length is no longer sufficient.)
> 
> Concerning RFC3126: From my opinion it is not necessary that 
> ERS will obsolete ES-A. But I surely expect that many big 
> storage, Document Management System and ECM vendors will 
> implement ERS and not ES-A. So in B2B and B2C we will most 
> probably seeing a lot of ERS.
> 
> The coexistence of ES-A and ERS will be something to discuss 
> when ERS is finally an RFC.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> 	Tobias
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > So my question is, if i want to archive signature, i have the choice
> > between RFC3126 ES-A or ERS in CMS. Am I right ?
> > 
> > If I am, will ES-A be obsoleted by ERS in CSM (as shown in 
> Appendix A in
> > [ers-02])  ?
> > 
> > But be sure that I understand ERS is more than just a way 
> to maintain a
> > singature valid.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Loïc
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > > Envoyé : vendredi 29 avril 2005 11:48
> > > À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS; [email-masked]
> > > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > >
> > > Loic
> > >
> > > This is what I didn't state. You have to distinguish the
> > > level of the two
> > > approaches. ERS deals mainly with providing syntax on (time)
> > > evidence and
> > > evidence on integrity of a data, while RFC3126 provides data
> > > strucutre for
> > > long term validity of a digital signatures. In this case RFC
> > > can rely on ERS
> > > for time and integrity evidence of a signature, so it is a
> > > more low level
> > > syntax. Or in other words, if you equip CMS with accredited
> > > time, you can
> > > ged basic ERS structure (of course ERS is more than that:
> > > e.g. grouping and
> > > hash trees). This is why I said the approaches of LTANS 
> vs. XAdES are
> > > somehow different, while addressing similar problems.
> > >
> > > BR
> > >
> > > Aleksej
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > > [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > > > Sent: 29. april 2005 11:24
> > > > To: A. Jerman Blazic; [email-masked]
> > > > Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > >
> > > > Aleksej,
> > > > Thanks for your reply.
> > > >
> > > > So, to demonstrate the existantce and stability of signature
> > > > on particular, there will be two ways in PKIX community:
> > > > One using rfc3126, one with ERS attribute within a CMS
> > > > signature object. Am I wrong ?
> > > >
> > > > Loïc
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]] Envoyé :
> > > > vendredi 29
> > > > > avril 2005 11:08 À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS;
> > > [email-masked]
> > > > > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Loic
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be very careful here. XAdES for example is like the
> > > > name says:
> > > > > syntax for extended signature, which builds on top of a
> > > > signature and
> > > > > includes all needed complementary data to provide long term
> > > > stability
> > > > > of digital signatures. The LTANS position, as I understand it,
> > > > > distances from such approach and deals with long term
> > > stability of
> > > > > data. ERS in this case defines requirements on how to
> > > > demonstrate the
> > > > > existence and stability of data (not signature on
> > > particular) on a
> > > > > timeline. It does not define the data structure nor the
> > > > syntax and at
> > > > > the moment you can freely use any interpretation of an
> > > > evidence record
> > > > > including CMS. But XAdES? I am not so sure....
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Aleksej
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: [email-masked]
> > > > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
> > > HOUSSIER Loic
> > > > > > RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > > > > Sent: 29. april 2005 10:46
> > > > > > To: [email-masked]
> > > > > > Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Reading ERS_02, I have question :
> > > > > > It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be
> > > stored as
> > > > > > another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS
> > > > or XADES)
> > > > > > do ER as part of the Archive.
> > > > > > But Is it compliant with ERS ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Loïc
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > > > De : [email-masked]
> > > > > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de
> > > > > > > [email-masked] Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005
> > > > 21:29 À :
> > > > > > > [email-masked] Cc : [email-masked] Objet : I-D
> > > > > > > ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > > > directories.
> > > > > > > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and
> > > > > > Notary Services
> > > > > > > Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > > > > > > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > > > > > > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > > > 	Pages		: 25
> > > > > > > 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and
> > > > prove the
> > > > > > >    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally
> > > > > > signed data,
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > >    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly
> > > > > > undetermined
> > > > > > >    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and
> > > > > > processing
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term
> > > > non-repudiation of
> > > > > > >    existence of data, which particularly can be used for
> > > > > > conservation
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >    evidence of digitally signed data.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > > >
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a
> > > > > > message to
> > > > > > > [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in
> > > > > > the body of
> > > > > > > the message.
> > > > > > > You can also visit
> > > > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > > > > > > to change your subscription settings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP.
> > > > > Login with the
> > > > > > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail
> > > > address. After
> > > > > > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > > > > > 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> > > > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Send a message to:
> > > > > > > 	[email-masked].
> > > > > > > In the body type:
> > > > > > > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return 
> the document in
> > > > > > > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.
> > > >  To use this
> > > > > > > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime"
> > > > before the "FILE"
> > > > > > > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will
> > > > need "munpack" or
> > > > > > > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant
> > > > > > mail readers
> > > > > > > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > > > > > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which
> > > > have been split
> > > > > > > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local
> > > > documentation on
> > > > > > > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > > > mail reader
> > > > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > > > version of the
> > > > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:11:29 +0200
From: "Tobias Gondrom" <[email-masked]>
To: "HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>, "A. Jerman Blazic" <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Loïc,

Maybe to provide further info:

> Well, it's more clear to me now...
> ERS just proposes a syntax for EV that can be used by CSM to kepp
> electronic signature valid.
> But according to RFC-3126, ES-A is a format that reech the same target
> than ERS in CMS.

Yes. In some way ES-A in RFC3126 is trying to achieve the same. 
With ES-A you can try to "re-sign" a signed file with a new layer wrapped around it every time a cryptographic algorithm gets weak (respectively before) - the concept is quite obvious and well thought for the use case to store only a limited number of signed documents. 

As Aleksej already described ERS also enables the possibility for long-term non repudiation and integrity. 
Second aspect of ERS is that it scales for large volumes of signed documents. With ES-A you have to wrap around every file another layer. 
With ERS you just create new hashtrees - which is if you think of e.g. about 10^6 to 10^9 documents a lot better concerning performance. (especially if only e.g. a public key algorithm gets weak or a used key length is no longer sufficient.)

Concerning RFC3126: From my opinion it is not necessary that ERS will obsolete ES-A. But I surely expect that many big storage, Document Management System and ECM vendors will implement ERS and not ES-A. So in B2B and B2C we will most probably seeing a lot of ERS.

The coexistence of ES-A and ERS will be something to discuss when ERS is finally an RFC.

Best regards

	Tobias

> 
> So my question is, if i want to archive signature, i have the choice
> between RFC3126 ES-A or ERS in CMS. Am I right ?
> 
> If I am, will ES-A be obsoleted by ERS in CSM (as shown in Appendix A in
> [ers-02])  ?
> 
> But be sure that I understand ERS is more than just a way to maintain a
> singature valid.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Loïc
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > Envoyé : vendredi 29 avril 2005 11:48
> > À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS; [email-masked]
> > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> >
> > Loic
> >
> > This is what I didn't state. You have to distinguish the
> > level of the two
> > approaches. ERS deals mainly with providing syntax on (time)
> > evidence and
> > evidence on integrity of a data, while RFC3126 provides data
> > strucutre for
> > long term validity of a digital signatures. In this case RFC
> > can rely on ERS
> > for time and integrity evidence of a signature, so it is a
> > more low level
> > syntax. Or in other words, if you equip CMS with accredited
> > time, you can
> > ged basic ERS structure (of course ERS is more than that:
> > e.g. grouping and
> > hash trees). This is why I said the approaches of LTANS vs. XAdES are
> > somehow different, while addressing similar problems.
> >
> > BR
> >
> > Aleksej
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > [mailto:[email-masked]]
> > > Sent: 29. april 2005 11:24
> > > To: A. Jerman Blazic; [email-masked]
> > > Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > >
> > > Aleksej,
> > > Thanks for your reply.
> > >
> > > So, to demonstrate the existantce and stability of signature
> > > on particular, there will be two ways in PKIX community:
> > > One using rfc3126, one with ERS attribute within a CMS
> > > signature object. Am I wrong ?
> > >
> > > Loïc
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]] Envoyé :
> > > vendredi 29
> > > > avril 2005 11:08 À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS;
> > [email-masked]
> > > > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > >
> > > > Dear Loic
> > > >
> > > > I would be very careful here. XAdES for example is like the
> > > name says:
> > > > syntax for extended signature, which builds on top of a
> > > signature and
> > > > includes all needed complementary data to provide long term
> > > stability
> > > > of digital signatures. The LTANS position, as I understand it,
> > > > distances from such approach and deals with long term
> > stability of
> > > > data. ERS in this case defines requirements on how to
> > > demonstrate the
> > > > existence and stability of data (not signature on
> > particular) on a
> > > > timeline. It does not define the data structure nor the
> > > syntax and at
> > > > the moment you can freely use any interpretation of an
> > > evidence record
> > > > including CMS. But XAdES? I am not so sure....
> > > >
> > > > Best regards
> > > >
> > > > Aleksej
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: [email-masked]
> > > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of
> > HOUSSIER Loic
> > > > > RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > > > Sent: 29. april 2005 10:46
> > > > > To: [email-masked]
> > > > > Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Reading ERS_02, I have question :
> > > > > It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be
> > stored as
> > > > > another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS
> > > or XADES)
> > > > > do ER as part of the Archive.
> > > > > But Is it compliant with ERS ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > Loïc
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > > De : [email-masked]
> > > > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de
> > > > > > [email-masked] Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005
> > > 21:29 À :
> > > > > > [email-masked] Cc : [email-masked] Objet : I-D
> > > > > > ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > > directories.
> > > > > > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and
> > > > > Notary Services
> > > > > > Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > > > > > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > > > > > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > > 	Pages		: 25
> > > > > > 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and
> > > prove the
> > > > > >    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally
> > > > > signed data,
> > > > > > in
> > > > > >    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly
> > > > > undetermined
> > > > > >    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and
> > > > > processing
> > > > > > of
> > > > > >    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term
> > > non-repudiation of
> > > > > >    existence of data, which particularly can be used for
> > > > > conservation
> > > > > > of
> > > > > >    evidence of digitally signed data.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > >
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a
> > > > > message to
> > > > > > [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in
> > > > > the body of
> > > > > > the message.
> > > > > > You can also visit
> > > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > > > > > to change your subscription settings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP.
> > > > Login with the
> > > > > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail
> > > address. After
> > > > > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > > > > 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or
> > > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Send a message to:
> > > > > > 	[email-masked].
> > > > > > In the body type:
> > > > > > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > > > > > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.
> > >  To use this
> > > > > > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime"
> > > before the "FILE"
> > > > > > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will
> > > need "munpack" or
> > > > > > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant
> > > > > mail readers
> > > > > > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > > > > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which
> > > have been split
> > > > > > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local
> > > documentation on
> > > > > > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant
> > > mail reader
> > > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII
> > > version of the
> > > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:12:36 +0200
From: "HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS" <[email-masked]>
To: "A. Jerman Blazic" <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Aleksej,

Well, it's more clear to me now...
ERS just proposes a syntax for EV that can be used by CSM to kepp electronic signature valid.
But according to RFC-3126, ES-A is a format that reech the same target than ERS in CMS.

So my question is, if i want to archive signature, i have the choice between RFC3126 ES-A or ERS in CMS. Am I right ?

If I am, will ES-A be obsoleted by ERS in CSM (as shown in Appendix A in [ers-02])  ?

But be sure that I understand ERS is more than just a way to maintain a singature valid.

Regards,

Loïc 

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Envoyé : vendredi 29 avril 2005 11:48
> À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS; [email-masked]
> Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> 
> Loic
> 
> This is what I didn't state. You have to distinguish the 
> level of the two
> approaches. ERS deals mainly with providing syntax on (time) 
> evidence and
> evidence on integrity of a data, while RFC3126 provides data 
> strucutre for
> long term validity of a digital signatures. In this case RFC 
> can rely on ERS
> for time and integrity evidence of a signature, so it is a 
> more low level
> syntax. Or in other words, if you equip CMS with accredited 
> time, you can
> ged basic ERS structure (of course ERS is more than that: 
> e.g. grouping and
> hash trees). This is why I said the approaches of LTANS vs. XAdES are
> somehow different, while addressing similar problems.
> 
> BR
> 
> Aleksej
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS 
> > [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> > Sent: 29. april 2005 11:24
> > To: A. Jerman Blazic; [email-masked]
> > Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > 
> > Aleksej,
> > Thanks for your reply.
> > 
> > So, to demonstrate the existantce and stability of signature 
> > on particular, there will be two ways in PKIX community:
> > One using rfc3126, one with ERS attribute within a CMS 
> > signature object. Am I wrong ?
> > 
> > Loïc 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]] Envoyé : 
> > vendredi 29 
> > > avril 2005 11:08 À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS; 
> [email-masked] 
> > > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > 
> > > Dear Loic
> > > 
> > > I would be very careful here. XAdES for example is like the 
> > name says:
> > > syntax for extended signature, which builds on top of a 
> > signature and 
> > > includes all needed complementary data to provide long term 
> > stability 
> > > of digital signatures. The LTANS position, as I understand it, 
> > > distances from such approach and deals with long term 
> stability of 
> > > data. ERS in this case defines requirements on how to 
> > demonstrate the 
> > > existence and stability of data (not signature on 
> particular) on a 
> > > timeline. It does not define the data structure nor the 
> > syntax and at 
> > > the moment you can freely use any interpretation of an 
> > evidence record 
> > > including CMS. But XAdES? I am not so sure....
> > > 
> > > Best regards
> > > 
> > > Aleksej
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [email-masked] 
> > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of 
> HOUSSIER Loic 
> > > > RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > > Sent: 29. april 2005 10:46
> > > > To: [email-masked]
> > > > Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > 
> > > > Reading ERS_02, I have question :
> > > > It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be 
> stored as 
> > > > another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS 
> > or XADES) 
> > > > do ER as part of the Archive.
> > > > But Is it compliant with ERS ?
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks
> > > > 
> > > > Loïc
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > De : [email-masked] 
> > > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de 
> > > > > [email-masked] Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005 
> > 21:29 À :
> > > > > [email-masked] Cc : [email-masked] Objet : I-D 
> > > > > ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > 
> > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > > Internet-Drafts
> > > > > directories.
> > > > > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and
> > > > Notary Services
> > > > > Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > > > > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > > > > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > 	Pages		: 25
> > > > > 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> > > > > 	
> > > > > In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and 
> > prove the 
> > > > >    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally
> > > > signed data,
> > > > > in
> > > > >    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly
> > > > undetermined
> > > > >    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and
> > > > processing
> > > > > of
> > > > >    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term 
> > non-repudiation of 
> > > > >    existence of data, which particularly can be used for
> > > > conservation
> > > > > of
> > > > >    evidence of digitally signed data.
> > > > > 
> > > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > > 
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > > 
> > > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a
> > > > message to
> > > > > [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in
> > > > the body of
> > > > > the message.
> > > > > You can also visit
> > > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > > > > to change your subscription settings.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 
> > > Login with the
> > > > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail 
> > address. After 
> > > > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > > > 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > 
> > > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in 
> > > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or 
> > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Send a message to:
> > > > > 	[email-masked].
> > > > > In the body type:
> > > > > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > > 	
> > > > > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > > > > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. 
> >  To use this
> > > > > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" 
> > before the "FILE"
> > > > > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will 
> > need "munpack" or
> > > > > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant
> > > > mail readers
> > > > > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > > > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which 
> > have been split
> > > > > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local 
> > documentation on
> > > > > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > > > > 		
> > > > > 		
> > > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant 
> > mail reader 
> > > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
> > version of the 
> > > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> 
> 

From: "A. Jerman Blazic" <[email-masked]>
To: "'HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS'" <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:47:48 +0200
Sender: [email-masked]

Loic

This is what I didn't state. You have to distinguish the level of the two
approaches. ERS deals mainly with providing syntax on (time) evidence and
evidence on integrity of a data, while RFC3126 provides data strucutre for
long term validity of a digital signatures. In this case RFC can rely on ERS
for time and integrity evidence of a signature, so it is a more low level
syntax. Or in other words, if you equip CMS with accredited time, you can
ged basic ERS structure (of course ERS is more than that: e.g. grouping and
hash trees). This is why I said the approaches of LTANS vs. XAdES are
somehow different, while addressing similar problems.

BR

Aleksej

> -----Original Message-----
> From: HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: 29. april 2005 11:24
> To: A. Jerman Blazic; [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> 
> Aleksej,
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> So, to demonstrate the existantce and stability of signature 
> on particular, there will be two ways in PKIX community:
> One using rfc3126, one with ERS attribute within a CMS 
> signature object. Am I wrong ?
> 
> Loïc 
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]] Envoyé : 
> vendredi 29 
> > avril 2005 11:08 À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS; [email-masked] 
> > Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > 
> > Dear Loic
> > 
> > I would be very careful here. XAdES for example is like the 
> name says:
> > syntax for extended signature, which builds on top of a 
> signature and 
> > includes all needed complementary data to provide long term 
> stability 
> > of digital signatures. The LTANS position, as I understand it, 
> > distances from such approach and deals with long term stability of 
> > data. ERS in this case defines requirements on how to 
> demonstrate the 
> > existence and stability of data (not signature on particular) on a 
> > timeline. It does not define the data structure nor the 
> syntax and at 
> > the moment you can freely use any interpretation of an 
> evidence record 
> > including CMS. But XAdES? I am not so sure....
> > 
> > Best regards
> > 
> > Aleksej
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email-masked] 
> > > [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of HOUSSIER Loic 
> > > RD-MAPS-ISS
> > > Sent: 29. april 2005 10:46
> > > To: [email-masked]
> > > Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > Reading ERS_02, I have question :
> > > It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be stored as 
> > > another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS 
> or XADES) 
> > > do ER as part of the Archive.
> > > But Is it compliant with ERS ?
> > > 
> > > Thanks
> > > 
> > > Loïc
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De : [email-masked] 
> > > > [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de 
> > > > [email-masked] Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005 
> 21:29 À :
> > > > [email-masked] Cc : [email-masked] Objet : I-D 
> > > > ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > 
> > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> > Internet-Drafts
> > > > directories.
> > > > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and
> > > Notary Services
> > > > Working Group of the IETF.
> > > > 
> > > > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > > > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > > > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > 	Pages		: 25
> > > > 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> > > > 	
> > > > In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and 
> prove the 
> > > >    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally
> > > signed data,
> > > > in
> > > >    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly
> > > undetermined
> > > >    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and
> > > processing
> > > > of
> > > >    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term 
> non-repudiation of 
> > > >    existence of data, which particularly can be used for
> > > conservation
> > > > of
> > > >    evidence of digitally signed data.
> > > > 
> > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > > 
> > > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a
> > > message to
> > > > [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in
> > > the body of
> > > > the message.
> > > > You can also visit
> > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > > > to change your subscription settings.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 
> > Login with the
> > > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail 
> address. After 
> > > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > > 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > 
> > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in 
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or 
> > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > > 
> > > > Send a message to:
> > > > 	[email-masked].
> > > > In the body type:
> > > > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > > 	
> > > > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > > > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. 
>  To use this
> > > > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" 
> before the "FILE"
> > > > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will 
> need "munpack" or
> > > > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant
> > > mail readers
> > > > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which 
> have been split
> > > > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local 
> documentation on
> > > > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > > > 		
> > > > 		
> > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant 
> mail reader 
> > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
> version of the 
> > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:24:28 +0200
From: "HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS" <[email-masked]>
To: "A. Jerman Blazic" <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Aleksej,
Thanks for your reply.

So, to demonstrate the existantce and stability of signature on particular, there will be two ways in PKIX community:
One using rfc3126, one with ERS attribute within a CMS signature object. Am I wrong ?

Loïc 

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : A. Jerman Blazic [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Envoyé : vendredi 29 avril 2005 11:08
> À : HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS; [email-masked]
> Objet : RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> 
> Dear Loic
> 
> I would be very careful here. XAdES for example is like the name says:
> syntax for extended signature, which builds on top of a signature and
> includes all needed complementary data to provide long term 
> stability of
> digital signatures. The LTANS position, as I understand it, 
> distances from
> such approach and deals with long term stability of data. ERS 
> in this case
> defines requirements on how to demonstrate the existence and 
> stability of
> data (not signature on particular) on a timeline. It does not 
> define the
> data structure nor the syntax and at the moment you can freely use any
> interpretation of an evidence record including CMS. But 
> XAdES? I am not so
> sure....
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Aleksej  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email-masked] 
> > [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of HOUSSIER 
> > Loic RD-MAPS-ISS
> > Sent: 29. april 2005 10:46
> > To: [email-masked]
> > Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> > 
> > 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Reading ERS_02, I have question :
> > It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be stored 
> > as another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS 
> > or XADES) do ER as part of the Archive.
> > But Is it compliant with ERS ?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Loïc
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : [email-masked]
> > > [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de 
> > > [email-masked] Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005 21:29 À : 
> > > [email-masked] Cc : [email-masked] Objet : I-D 
> > > ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > 
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
> Internet-Drafts 
> > > directories.
> > > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and 
> > Notary Services 
> > > Working Group of the IETF.
> > > 
> > > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > 	Pages		: 25
> > > 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> > > 	
> > > In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and prove the 
> > >    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally 
> > signed data, 
> > > in
> > >    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly 
> > undetermined
> > >    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and 
> > processing 
> > > of
> > >    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term non-repudiation of 
> > >    existence of data, which particularly can be used for 
> > conservation 
> > > of
> > >    evidence of digitally signed data.
> > > 
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > > 
> > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a 
> > message to 
> > > [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in 
> > the body of 
> > > the message.
> > > You can also visit
> > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > > to change your subscription settings.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 
> Login with the 
> > > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After 
> > > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > 
> > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in 
> > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or 
> > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > 
> > > Send a message to:
> > > 	[email-masked].
> > > In the body type:
> > > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > > 	
> > > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> > > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant 
> > mail readers
> > > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> > > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> > > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > > 		
> > > 		
> > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader 
> > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the 
> > > Internet-Draft.
> > > 
> > 
> 
> 

From: "A. Jerman Blazic" <[email-masked]>
To: "'HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS'" <[email-masked]>, <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: [ers-02.txt] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:08:29 +0200
Sender: [email-masked]

Dear Loic

I would be very careful here. XAdES for example is like the name says:
syntax for extended signature, which builds on top of a signature and
includes all needed complementary data to provide long term stability of
digital signatures. The LTANS position, as I understand it, distances from
such approach and deals with long term stability of data. ERS in this case
defines requirements on how to demonstrate the existence and stability of
data (not signature on particular) on a timeline. It does not define the
data structure nor the syntax and at the moment you can freely use any
interpretation of an evidence record including CMS. But XAdES? I am not so
sure....

Best regards

Aleksej  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf Of HOUSSIER 
> Loic RD-MAPS-ISS
> Sent: 29. april 2005 10:46
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Reading ERS_02, I have question :
> It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be stored 
> as another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS 
> or XADES) do ER as part of the Archive.
> But Is it compliant with ERS ?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Loïc
> 
>  
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : [email-masked]
> > [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de 
> > [email-masked] Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005 21:29 À : 
> > [email-masked] Cc : [email-masked] Objet : I-D 
> > ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > 
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
> > directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and 
> Notary Services 
> > Working Group of the IETF.
> > 
> > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > 	Pages		: 25
> > 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> > 	
> > In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and prove the 
> >    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally 
> signed data, 
> > in
> >    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly 
> undetermined
> >    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and 
> processing 
> > of
> >    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term non-repudiation of 
> >    existence of data, which particularly can be used for 
> conservation 
> > of
> >    evidence of digitally signed data.
> > 
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> > 
> > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a 
> message to 
> > [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in 
> the body of 
> > the message.
> > You can also visit
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > to change your subscription settings.
> > 
> > 
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the 
> > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After 
> > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > 
> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in 
> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or 
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > 
> > 
> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > 
> > Send a message to:
> > 	[email-masked].
> > In the body type:
> > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> > 	
> > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant 
> mail readers
> > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > 		
> > 		
> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader 
> > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the 
> > Internet-Draft.
> > 
> 

Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Subject: [ers-02.txt] Questions
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:46:06 +0200
From: "HOUSSIER Loic RD-MAPS-ISS" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked]

Hi all,

Reading ERS_02, I have question :
It s said that ER can be part of the Archive or can be stored as another file. What I understand is that we can (using CMS or XADES) do ER as part of the Archive.
But Is it compliant with ERS ?

Thanks

Loïc

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : [email-masked] 
> [mailto:[email-masked]] De la part de 
> [email-masked]
> Envoyé : vendredi 8 avril 2005 21:29
> À : [email-masked]
> Cc : [email-masked]
> Objet : I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> 
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and Notary 
> Services Working Group of the IETF.
> 
> 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> 	Pages		: 25
> 	Date		: 2005-4-8
> 	
> In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and prove the 
>    existence and integrity of data, especially digitally 
> signed data, in 
>    a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly 
> undetermined 
>    period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and 
> processing of 
>    an Evidence Record, designed for long-term non-repudiation of 
>    existence of data, which particularly can be used for 
> conservation of 
>    evidence of digitally signed data.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
> 
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
> [email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in 
> the body of the message.  
> You can also visit 
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce 
> to change your subscription settings.
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login 
> with the username
> "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> 	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> 
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html 
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> 
> Send a message to:
> 	[email-masked].
> In the body type:
> 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
> 	
> NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant 
> mail readers
> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> 	how to manipulate these messages.
> 		
> 		
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
> 

To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
From: [email-masked]
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:29:22 -0400
Sender: [email-masked]

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and Notary Services Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt
	Pages		: 25
	Date		: 2005-4-8
	
In many scenarios, users need to be able to ensure and prove the 
   existence and integrity of data, especially digitally signed data, in 
   a common and reproducible way over a long and possibly undetermined 
   period of time.  This document specifies the syntax and processing of 
   an Evidence Record, designed for long-term non-repudiation of 
   existence of data, which particularly can be used for conservation of 
   evidence of digitally signed data.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt

To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
[email-masked] with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message.  
You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce 
to change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html 
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt

Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
	[email-masked].
In the body type:
	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt".
	
NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
	how to manipulate these messages.

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

--NextPart
Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"

--OtherAccess
Content-Type: Message/External-body;
	access-type="mail-server";
	server="[email-masked]"

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<[email-masked]>

ENCODING mime
FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt

--OtherAccess
Content-Type: Message/External-body;
	name="draft-ietf-ltans-ers-02.txt";
	site="ftp.ietf.org";
	access-type="anon-ftp";
	directory="internet-drafts"

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-ID:	<[email-masked]>

--OtherAccess--

--NextPart--