From nobody Tue Jan 12 13:31:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143EF1A89C4 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2016 13:31:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dYP4rzoJej9Y for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2016 13:31:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CCE1A89C6 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 2016 13:31:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.27.103] (dynamic-94-247-222-033.catv.glattnet.ch [94.247.222.33]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 201F51A0023; Tue, 12 Jan 2016 22:30:45 +0100 (CET) From: Brian Trammell X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8402ADB9-68DC-42A4-B42E-3E17878B3BC4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 22:30:44 +0100 Message-Id: <8B3BC21A-ADF0-4B44-9079-BF254DD790CE@trammell.ch> To: hops@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: maprg@irtf.org Subject: [Maprg] A new proposed RG charter, and a new mailing list X-BeenThere: maprg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Measurement and Analysis for Protocols \(MAP\) \(Proposed\) RG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 21:31:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8402ADB9-68DC-42A4-B42E-3E17878B3BC4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Greetings, all, The How Ossified is the Protocol Stack (HOPS) Proposed RG is now the = Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) proposed RG, following = discussions in Yokohama and on the list afterward (many thanks to all!) The proposed RG charter is below. Please subscribe to the new = maprg@irtf.org list at: https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols (MAP) RG =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was = envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that = for which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are = sometimes reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. The Measurement and = Analysis for Protocols (MAP) Research Group (RG) explores such phenomena by = measurement with the aim to inform protocol engineering and practice. Many protocol engineering efforts in a standards development context, as = well as best practices for the operation of IETF-defined protocols, can = benefit from insight provided by Internet measurements of various kinds. = Likewise, Internet measurement research efforts can stand to gain from contacts = with the IETF. The Measurement and Analysis for Protocol Engineering (MAP) = Research Group aims to provide a forum for interchange between these two = communities, supporting: - exchange of measurement-derived insight, - discussion of techniques and best practices for measurement relevant to protocol engineering and network operations, - collaborations to share data supporting these measurements, and - a "landing pad" in general for the Internet measurement community to introduce its efforts to the IETF Measurements of any layer of the Internet protocol stack or aspect of = Internet operations are in-scope for the RG, provided they are relevant to = protocol engineering work within the IETF, or the operation of IETF protocols. Membership ---------- Membership in the MAP RG is open to all interested parties. Mailing List ------------ The MAP RG mailing list is maprg@irtf.org Meetings -------- The MAP RG will meet one to three times per year, as deemed necessary by = the chairs and according to demand. At least one MAP RG meeting will be = co-located with an IETF meeting per year. Given the MAP RG's charter to bridge the = gap between Internet standards and measurement communities, the MAP RG may = also meet colocated with relevant academic conferences or network operator = forums, as appropriate. Meetings are by default open with open attendance and published = proceedings, with remote participation and recording as provided by the meeting = venue, according to the IRTF's IPR policy. This is always the case with at = least one MAP RG meeting co-located with an IETF meeting noted above. However, as = deemed necessary, the chairs may hold virtual or physical meetings with = restricted attendance to discuss observations which cannot be shared openly, = provided that some outcome of such a meeting may be openly shared with the = community. Chairs ------ Mirja K=C3=BChlewind Dave Plonka Cheers, Brian --Apple-Mail=_8402ADB9-68DC-42A4-B42E-3E17878B3BC4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWlXCEAAoJEIoSt78L6kajjiQQAK68r7QLNnUvDJifujQryxYV N0wIyUQ9OZS6lYW9tpdv04MgDl9LNvuKTpUVQXTgwqbqXOlMwRTr/F2wcWBX2NUx hq+DAAv4MjRzY8htSl2w92hZi4deTDylOqenPNoErnPEb7Ym+M3iS1eJuXUU//hE thWwtoibDSldyGkPZn3EqHM6Pr0HwpCTzncw5tqJ4lNKL7vKOcGVoqZtIVuR5EXY HothYqs/+VZa6ynfZBL3k6ydCz1Vz3WZc18w1fNzakgTrWrBybdMkK+BOOGJ2sWk fQHzUWuJiylHKDaWm9NQd65cxg2u704ShoZaqEc40LcECloiUcV8e3hFRjOjrdxB 6VKeXhfY51FJioVYmK88nZ+04L3NTuh/vCnDb6pjRKiNO1jeBhvQh/+UZnsW4LiK H9U4TbJmJXy/h/Qp9rXfKqG8rBFXLMX7+vgKQ8KJfmjDQwF5Vm35gYbxAcxo4tt5 CbS3TR8eHxUt8YSJAGRe5oaxW7CgYLWrow+E8R0xYWCNgV28piaQ5g/WugvojoM9 hWgVmh+Se99ERCXtfS290H8ZnwHINEJVyOJgfJd9PgOOwMWfHEKGrbbdTfxdKzBZ MlzYU4mh1l0LM1ZkRKKWy+8s3i2TELfEJKyusA/lRTzGUh6C7Kx+HOBMjDPojMr7 ieKvnwY/+yuVYkQByJ81 =nnkz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8402ADB9-68DC-42A4-B42E-3E17878B3BC4-- From nobody Fri Jan 15 07:47:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C6D1B2F58 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:47:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3W2uArG3BpTy for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1090F1B2F59 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id a123so270575081vkh.1 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:47:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=/oZ4qSM7plgh7B7VdjWWMyCRjFjdSazMcjoz5s99PPk=; b=gwaqLhaZ0S8KRbusk28U60GKhxZ89OEgGW9bNBVKkv/iRGZU/CKIGVrue1r4GXtZnP TGhWHN8a/trZQkIp1drVXc8ooivd3QSoqGFegPy837XSafSgXwYf2vxhh0R5bYVpJwa2 N4T2Ar9YMKMH79QA52mkb6cT09zEONV6PyXXQPlz2LG4OKz5PQajchzeC3a7aBMFcqUi sgA0gFAgPUEVV2VrWG61aUcVaByTgmo+RrDJmg99XaWTpBoagpWtNdA55WnRwlO5LSqr ZmJMsH5I3wIhpxsjXD6bXN9lVdyr8kLHq0tDlJOyPh2ErYr+VsWunoVKQRymgFoQ/DkF frAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=/oZ4qSM7plgh7B7VdjWWMyCRjFjdSazMcjoz5s99PPk=; b=X9XdViBI9SST4YQR5Afll/2bPXvqlzHIWzjnRSl0GuxlBX/ecd/1ReBPMHDaXOp7+q 3vYlq6KSc7J7dttpvDXkVbBinYJj69h0yEbIrTnf6wGAch7+4tKUSDQ5Oy8wgRlFXjNF RdzVvWw3z/l333ZlFlUMix8+qPSGmAVlaG3ClFGFg1pggJXEzVo2PaLhJTbtGBcRkYi7 Dr6/XAG3y90/MZB7zurKP5xW5jZZ+NihImYTRx4v3HgtRp31Bpz96UR2rZWSd3RyURmb dO4CDLnvYa0piT3TwVj8qjXRzMjR+o3pHIRyf6OeLUVLzQ/m6vSpIoZ+WkUQvmGxVoF7 t4iA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkhigz5ZjZz5tpvoRgIkTnZ5bz8k/IBedDOzae4JV+auV0ni6un2nWeXHYMaZCBgqXPM1dqLB/awyst8CADYv7SshzEbA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.172.135 with SMTP id v129mr7471423vke.154.1452872843179; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.31.232.194 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:47:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 09:47:23 -0600 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: maprg@irtf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1143e3dcb8be7a05296151f6 Archived-At: Subject: [Maprg] Suggested minor tweak to proposed charter text X-BeenThere: maprg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Measurement and Analysis for Protocols \(MAP\) \(Proposed\) RG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:47:30 -0000 --001a1143e3dcb8be7a05296151f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 (Speaking as an individual) I like where the proposed charter is headed, but struggled with the first few sentences: Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envisioned. Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that for which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. You might consider something like Our Internet continues to evolve in ways that were not anticipated when protocols and policies were put in place. The end-to-end design principle is now competing with the inclusion of intelligence in network elements, so that protocol- specific functionality is often encountered on a network path. Protocols are reused in surprising ways, and this reuse may reach the level of abuse. Thanks. Spencer --001a1143e3dcb8be7a05296151f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(Speaking as an individual)

I like wher= e the proposed charter is headed, but struggled with the first few sentence= s:

Ou=
r Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envisioned.<=
/pre>
Its protocols =
sometimes operate in an environment other than than that for
which they were designed. Fo=
r instance, some network elements treat some
protocols differently than others and those =
protocols themselves are sometimes
reused and abused in ways initially unforseen.
<= /div>
<=
br>
You might consider so=
mething like

<= /div>
Our Internet continues t=
o evolve in ways that were not anticipated when protocols
and policies w=
ere put in place. The end-to-end design principle is now competing=C2=A0
w=
ith the inclusion of intelligence in network elements, so that=C2=A0protoco=
l-
specifi=
c functionality is often encountered on a network path. Protocols are reuse=
d=C2=A0
in surprising ways, and this reuse may reach the level of abuse.

<=
/pre>
Thanks.

Spencer
--001a1143e3dcb8be7a05296151f6-- From nobody Fri Jan 15 07:53:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2113C1B2F60 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:53:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IAtrNHkjdjxg for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from trammell.ch (trammell.ch [5.148.172.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732BE1B2F62 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 07:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:67c:10ec:52c7:8000::41b] (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:10ec:52c7:8000::41b]) by trammell.ch (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 28C761A066C; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E4EAEB3E-8A88-4C9C-81B0-2446832FBB86"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: Brian Trammell In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:53:05 +0100 Message-Id: References: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: maprg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Maprg] Suggested minor tweak to proposed charter text X-BeenThere: maprg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Measurement and Analysis for Protocols \(MAP\) \(Proposed\) RG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:53:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E4EAEB3E-8A88-4C9C-81B0-2446832FBB86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hi Spencer, > On 15 Jan 2016, at 16:47, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > (Speaking as an individual) >=20 > I like where the proposed charter is headed, but struggled with the = first few sentences: >=20 > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was = envisioned. > Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that = for > which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat = some > protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are = sometimes > reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. >=20 > You might consider something like >=20 > Our Internet continues to evolve in ways that were not anticipated = when protocols > and policies were put in place. The end-to-end design principle is now = competing > with the inclusion of intelligence in network elements, so that = protocol- > specific functionality is often encountered on a network path. I really like this bit, and think we should use it instead of the = current first paragraph. > Protocols are reused in surprising ways, and this reuse may reach the = level of abuse. I'm not following you here though, could you illustrate what you mean a = bit? Thanks, cheers, Brian > Thanks. >=20 > Spencer > _______________________________________________ > Maprg mailing list > Maprg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/maprg --Apple-Mail=_E4EAEB3E-8A88-4C9C-81B0-2446832FBB86 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWmRXiAAoJEIoSt78L6kajnsgQAMBwso+ziaojJrkXRMnoNyWe 1/Ae/jDWYHgKLLpDXI+BTw/nVYigiMv7yMMA/4tmGo/x1KGYzg1Zcnhrl0gqCuEI 9zswuOeYM24KSJWOy2Sc3woVGsYXMXFRFpphsmNeC/Y1fpF31QN2Shq3ny+ZsAP6 igGK4CBRYEeMSFabW8oqEBv0yx8OVZ1FapoBoT8qTLsBA9vMi+f1Lb/nkvixzq/4 cTC9pKLjXolTS1I8aOpbyB/q5SHQ/jDOwuHbg9uWntJWjxQgKEhrJsdgwECLQNyB JbWg4hITst/LCB5STpMRfloN2lCKoy455QG6BWw/kDtfGW1Wb/0dlmKgl1RYJfIh /TvBLbNAzxlXXATuckN2KHEOZzcmPzYcGILEjkKX0dhERXiiO8yonA6gqhfRZywI erjc9A7zlMP3I6Rui/QtDZ60QSx9A8Foug5BF6SQBojiNJEZJb/A+qiY3hUk3mzu urCcLroW+KI/TT+oI4kiJMYjtRnYqrl+LUIxkDtsFxR/Vst4S7dZprxVWbolSeiT TvIQf3KMvnyE8Ck2deTK1twRYXyu5ARSNAi/9E5313gOZKAyK8xDxpynixePsccV FlE1HwzIZHkygRN8qOL4fHSMSPyyhiuDB5UuPyC6h5wVwcI4Ltj4sbnCYsv3VoS/ tzJlAEp31nevh/P/YU4v =9Mzk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E4EAEB3E-8A88-4C9C-81B0-2446832FBB86-- From nobody Fri Jan 15 08:02:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BF01B2F84 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:02:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id avYztNA4fEAv for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-02.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 314CC1B2F86 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fr711umx2.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.245.210.39]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 14D2D1F6808AA; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:02:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.122]) by fr711umx2.dmz.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO-o) with ESMTP id u0FG2QbA006634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:02:27 GMT Received: from FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (fr711wxchhub01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com [135.239.2.111]) by fr711usmtp1.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id u0FG2Oi8019607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 15 Jan 2016 17:02:26 +0100 Received: from FR712WXCHMBA15.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.7.114]) by FR711WXCHHUB01.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.239.2.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 17:02:11 +0100 From: "SCHARF, Michael (Michael)" To: EXT Brian Trammell , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Thread-Topic: [Maprg] Suggested minor tweak to proposed charter text Thread-Index: AQHRT6wOzIobCFra6UGvyYehBuEpA578qYiAgAAS0xA= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:02:10 +0000 Message-ID: <655C07320163294895BBADA28372AF5D485C5165@FR712WXCHMBA15.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.239.27.41] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "maprg@irtf.org" Subject: Re: [Maprg] Suggested minor tweak to proposed charter text X-BeenThere: maprg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Measurement and Analysis for Protocols \(MAP\) \(Proposed\) RG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:02:32 -0000 I agree that Spencer's wording is better. Two smaller nits: I am not a native speaker, but I would recommend to review the wording "Our= Internet". =20 Also, the text uses the term "Internet measurements" a number of times. May= be that could be relaxed in some cases. I might be wrong, but there is some= believe that e.g. TCP middleboxes are relatively common in private network= s (e.g., corporate LANs), unlike in the public Internet. Whether data about= private networks will indeed be shared is a separate question... Michael -----Original Message----- From: Maprg [mailto:maprg-bounces@irtf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Brian Trammell Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 4:53 PM To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: maprg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Maprg] Suggested minor tweak to proposed charter text hi Spencer, > On 15 Jan 2016, at 16:47, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: >=20 > (Speaking as an individual) >=20 > I like where the proposed charter is headed, but struggled with the first= few sentences: >=20 > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envision= ed. > Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that=20 > for which they were designed. For instance, some network elements=20 > treat some protocols differently than others and those protocols=20 > themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. >=20 > You might consider something like >=20 > Our Internet continues to evolve in ways that were not anticipated=20 > when protocols and policies were put in place. The end-to-end design=20 > principle is now competing with the inclusion of intelligence in=20 > network elements, so that protocol- specific functionality is often encou= ntered on a network path. I really like this bit, and think we should use it instead of the current f= irst paragraph. > Protocols are reused in surprising ways, and this reuse may reach the lev= el of abuse. I'm not following you here though, could you illustrate what you mean a bit= ? Thanks, cheers, Brian > Thanks. >=20 > Spencer > _______________________________________________ > Maprg mailing list > Maprg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/maprg From nobody Fri Jan 15 08:03:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: maprg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC8D1B2F86 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:03:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kTuJ8IR__SbV for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x236.google.com (mail-vk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C7441B2F85 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:03:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id k1so300706903vkb.2 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:03:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=sXK9+noDCTbvLcX1RELmceozCmGge1xtp8aye57mw1o=; b=Oedpa8hZBx01wpFlCal1l17r8U5XXHn5BvAYA3avgZTpWTu0aj2dFTI3Pz00BJC7RU +OnYicitG99V6mWf89gGWHs8zo1VmY87PgwGETfAAWaftXemg6gIHQN7v+FoTnBCPLW7 4tpqG0JxB0Av6jDsFjp13BNVyH0olKwqtbLjaJ2X8HX7MNyg1H+B57bWymLkVg2pdQFq MJrQkZmMsXf/WLpkcuUcFkEvgp+uwK3a9i7pHMZPY0PZmzl96TiV+2JSP8MIQ5IyC/FA rPBsLKxymUhOowBwx3TlSF3Wn6AohY3ScE7JLYZyr/uESZujOg65WYEFNz4BJgZnh8MK LiPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=sXK9+noDCTbvLcX1RELmceozCmGge1xtp8aye57mw1o=; b=gz9krqzrlKQ2G39BpuYyLdBK5lUZ48xA78zJ+7FWnPiTyS3oRLT5hvJW4MKt2117zi q+qepJZiTMtTtawrmemdolFP1HYDyrbaegMa3U0XgE/MFEMLUvlmwj+n/PC0WEKqh+64 2V/tEvyYs28tvogx67eINwxddHzLr2ZmVgjI/7tvuQfOBuceVe4sBZ2VD41d6gnaRTLL e4p3qFBieRj7M006v0Z59oawMtRSpMKkEZZDnA8iXhaKVqadx9sJYc2ii5kbevrE0YNw RT7mtrWyE0dI+rzoI3BaLjee17bZmONL04VaBzowcCGQhBhFgOi+jyO+fKNvUb0ZB4S0 1Rwg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnA4c7//UB+mNBPwMW1puuZFhu5h0HkCmHr1bOiwEaXgyk2uyWWpxSOudZHbgaprLU7sz7fhS2U4djuD/dNoV8LOVd2+Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.8.4 with SMTP id 4mr7329727vki.60.1452873835118; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.31.232.194 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:03:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:03:54 -0600 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Brian Trammell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144102ad884500529618c14 Archived-At: Cc: maprg@irtf.org Subject: Re: [Maprg] Suggested minor tweak to proposed charter text X-BeenThere: maprg@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Measurement and Analysis for Protocols \(MAP\) \(Proposed\) RG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 16:03:58 -0000 --001a1144102ad884500529618c14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Brian, On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Brian Trammell wrote: > hi Spencer, > > > On 15 Jan 2016, at 16:47, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > (Speaking as an individual) > > > > I like where the proposed charter is headed, but struggled with the > first few sentences: > > > > Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was > envisioned. > > Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that > for > > which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat some > > protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are > sometimes > > reused and abused in ways initially unforseen. > > > > You might consider something like > > > > Our Internet continues to evolve in ways that were not anticipated when > protocols > > and policies were put in place. The end-to-end design principle is now > competing > > with the inclusion of intelligence in network elements, so that protocol- > > specific functionality is often encountered on a network path. > > I really like this bit, and think we should use it instead of the current > first paragraph. > > > Protocols are reused in surprising ways, and this reuse may reach the > level of abuse. > > I'm not following you here though, could you illustrate what you mean a > bit? I was chewing on "those protocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways initially unforseen", so I'm not entirely sure what the current charter text means by that, but I had immediately assumed that https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp56 would qualify as an example of what the proposed charter was talking about. If my proposal wasn't clear, perhaps adding "For example, the HTTP application protocol has been widely reused as a transport protocol for other applications" would be helpful. Thanks for considering this. Spencer > Thanks, cheers, > > Brian > > > Thanks. > > > > Spencer > > _______________________________________________ > > Maprg mailing list > > Maprg@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/maprg > > --001a1144102ad884500529618c14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Brian,

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch= > wrote:
hi Spencer,

> On 15 Jan 2016, at 16:47, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrot= e:
>
> (Speaking as an individual)
>
> I like where the proposed charter is headed, but struggled with the fi= rst few sentences:
>
> Our Internet has grown into something that differs from what was envis= ioned.
> Its protocols sometimes operate in an environment other than than that= for
> which they were designed. For instance, some network elements treat so= me
> protocols differently than others and those protocols themselves are s= ometimes
> reused and abused in ways initially unforseen.
>
> You might consider something like
>
> Our Internet continues to evolve in ways that were not anticipated whe= n protocols
> and policies were put in place. The end-to-end design principle is now= competing
> with the inclusion of intelligence in network elements, so that protoc= ol-
> specific functionality is often encountered on a network path.

I really like this bit, and think we should use it instead of the cu= rrent first paragraph.

> Protocols are reused in surprising ways, and this reuse may reach the = level of abuse.

I'm not following you here though, could you illustrate what you= mean a bit?

I was chewing on "those p= rotocols themselves are sometimes reused and abused in ways initially unfor= seen", so I'm not entirely sure what the current charter text mean= s by that, but I had immediately assumed that=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/bcp56 would qualify a= s an example of what the proposed charter was talking about.

=
If my proposal wasn't clear, perhaps adding "For exampl= e, the HTTP application protocol has been widely reused as a transport prot= ocol for other applications" would be helpful.

Thanks for considering this.

Spencer
= =C2=A0
Thanks, cheers,

Brian

> Thanks.
>
> Spencer
> _______________________________________________
> Maprg mailing list
> Maprg@irtf.org
> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/maprg


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