From mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Fri Aug 10 12:56:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJXn2-0005Ym-JA; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:56:44 -0400 Received: from mib2rdml by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IJXn0-0005Yd-JU for mib2rdml-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:56:42 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJXmv-0005Uc-Rx; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:56:37 -0400 Received: from sccrmhc15.comcast.net ([204.127.200.85]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJXmu-0001rA-L8; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:56:37 -0400 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-104-207.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.104.207]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc15) with SMTP id <2007081016563601500pgi2ae>; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:56:36 +0000 From: "David Harrington" To: , , , , Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:56:32 -0400 Message-ID: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: Acfbb2b9suLKNKJQT1+oNHHgTQiURA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: Subject: [MIB2RDML] XSDMI work X-BeenThere: mib2rdml@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: converting MIB modules into resource models List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Hi, The XSDMI BOF proposed the creation of a WG to develop 1) the XSD equivalents of datatypes and textual conventions from SMIv2, and 2) algorithms to translate MIB module specifications into XSD equivalents. The BOF demonstrated community support for these two work items. People in the BOF volunteered to commit to being editors (3) and reviewers (14) for these work items. Starting documents and implementations already exist. The work is expected to take less than 12 months. At Dan's suggestion, rather than starting a new WG for this work, we have proposed that the SMI-to-XSD translation work be done in the OPSAWG. The OPSAWG chairs need to determine whether the OPSAWG WG should accept this work. Please send email to opsawg@ietf.org with comments about your support/lack of support for having the OPSAWG do this work. (If you do not subscribe to opsawg, you might want to do so, in order to follow the discussions.) David Harrington dbharrington@comcast.net ietfdbh@comcast.net _______________________________________________ MIB2RDML mailing list MIB2RDML@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib2rdml From mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Sun Aug 12 04:35:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IK8uk-0000CU-Vl; Sun, 12 Aug 2007 04:35:10 -0400 Received: from mib2rdml by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IJYA7-0008Fr-Bc for mib2rdml-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:20:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJYA6-0008Es-QP for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:20:34 -0400 Received: from smtp113.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([68.142.229.92]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJYA5-0002mh-LT for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:20:34 -0400 Received: (qmail 19580 invoked from network); 10 Aug 2007 17:20:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.11?) (andybierman@att.net@75.50.187.99 with plain) by smtp113.sbc.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Aug 2007 17:20:33 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 5YbGH1kVM1laI9JAbitXA1RfgJFCfe0m7.8titlRT4MQm.iePsMevKglmdqwDDyzDoaLJOkkNdss1XKuHfPes14ufoEbZFSpdq33f_XXaOapaOfj5DuZ.Q-- Message-ID: <46BC9E07.3030502@andybierman.com> Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:19:03 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Harrington References: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 04:35:10 -0400 Cc: ngo@ietf.org, mib2rdml@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, ops-nm@ietf.org Subject: [MIB2RDML] Re: [NGO] XSDMI work X-BeenThere: mib2rdml@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: converting MIB modules into resource models List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org David Harrington wrote: > Hi, > > The XSDMI BOF proposed the creation of a WG to develop 1) the XSD > equivalents of datatypes and textual conventions from SMIv2, and 2) > algorithms to translate MIB module specifications into XSD > equivalents. The BOF demonstrated community support for these two work > items. > > People in the BOF volunteered to commit to being editors (3) and > reviewers (14) for these work items. Starting documents and > implementations already exist. The work is expected to take less than > 12 months. > > At Dan's suggestion, rather than starting a new WG for this work, we > have proposed that the SMI-to-XSD translation work be done in the > OPSAWG. > I have an objection to this "translation" work. You will make all kinds of assumptions about data organization and data naming, and I'm not sure what people are supposed to do with the XSDs. The term "XSD translation" is misleading. The XML on the wire is what is at stake here. The smidump translation of a MIB has SNMP operations built into it. Is this work supposed to produce a standard way to send an SNMP PDU over any protocol designed to encode SNMP PDUs in XML? Why do we need this? Is the charter going to state that the XSD translation will be suitable for use for any particular protocol? NETCONF needs to standardize XML data organization, namespace usage, and Xpath-based data naming. Is this translation going to be compatible with that standard when it eventually comes out? I would like the charter to be clear on the purpose of this work item, and what 'protocols' are signed up to use it. > The OPSAWG chairs need to determine whether the OPSAWG WG should > accept this work. Please send email to opsawg@ietf.org with comments > about your support/lack of support for having the OPSAWG do this work. > (If you do not subscribe to opsawg, you might want to do so, in order > to follow the discussions.) > > David Harrington > dbharrington@comcast.net > ietfdbh@comcast.net > > Andy _______________________________________________ MIB2RDML mailing list MIB2RDML@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib2rdml From mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 13 12:40:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcxx-0007j6-Gp; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Received: from mib2rdml by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IKayT-0005TI-49 for mib2rdml-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:32:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKayO-0005Qh-50; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:32:48 -0400 Received: from smtpb.juniper.net ([207.17.137.119]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKayM-0006j6-Tl; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:32:48 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO proton.jnpr.net) ([10.10.2.37]) by smtpb.juniper.net with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2007 07:32:45 -0700 Received: from [172.23.1.110] ([172.23.1.110] RDNS failed) by proton.jnpr.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:32:44 -0400 Message-ID: <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:32:27 -0400 From: Ron Bonica User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Bierman References: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> <46BC9E07.3030502@andybierman.com> In-Reply-To: <46BC9E07.3030502@andybierman.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.93.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2007 14:32:44.0721 (UTC) FILETIME=[D0065210:01C7DDB6] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Cc: ngo@ietf.org, mib2rdml@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, ops-nm@ietf.org Subject: [MIB2RDML] Re: [OPSAWG] Re: [NGO] XSDMI work X-BeenThere: mib2rdml@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: converting MIB modules into resource models List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Andy, David, Permit me to ask a few dumb questions so that I can understand a) what David is proposing and b) why Andy is objecting. AFAIKS, David is proposing the following: - a mapping from SMIv2 TCs to XSD types - a mechanism to translate SNMP MIBS to XSD. The XSD is an XML schema that is independent of the protocol that is used to shuffle the data back and forth. In one respect, it is a bit like Esperanto. It strength is that it omits the details that make it inappropriate for one protocol or the other. But at the same time, it's weakness is that it lacks the detail that would be required by any protocol. David, Andy, do I have this right? If so, could you guys point out what some of those omitted/lacking details are? /speaking as individual contributor /and by no means a data modeling expert Ron Andy Bierman wrote: > David Harrington wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> The XSDMI BOF proposed the creation of a WG to develop 1) the XSD >> equivalents of datatypes and textual conventions from SMIv2, and 2) >> algorithms to translate MIB module specifications into XSD >> equivalents. The BOF demonstrated community support for these two work >> items. >> People in the BOF volunteered to commit to being editors (3) and >> reviewers (14) for these work items. Starting documents and >> implementations already exist. The work is expected to take less than >> 12 months. >> >> At Dan's suggestion, rather than starting a new WG for this work, we >> have proposed that the SMI-to-XSD translation work be done in the >> OPSAWG. >> > > I have an objection to this "translation" work. > You will make all kinds of assumptions about data organization > and data naming, and I'm not sure what people are supposed > to do with the XSDs. > > The term "XSD translation" is misleading. > The XML on the wire is what is at stake here. > The smidump translation of a MIB has SNMP operations > built into it. Is this work supposed to produce > a standard way to send an SNMP PDU over any protocol > designed to encode SNMP PDUs in XML? Why do we need this? > > Is the charter going to state that the XSD translation will > be suitable for use for any particular protocol? > NETCONF needs to standardize XML data organization, > namespace usage, and Xpath-based data naming. > Is this translation going to be compatible with that standard > when it eventually comes out? > > I would like the charter to be clear on the purpose of this work item, > and what 'protocols' are signed up to use it. > > >> The OPSAWG chairs need to determine whether the OPSAWG WG should >> accept this work. Please send email to opsawg@ietf.org with comments >> about your support/lack of support for having the OPSAWG do this work. >> (If you do not subscribe to opsawg, you might want to do so, in order >> to follow the discussions.) >> >> David Harrington >> dbharrington@comcast.net >> ietfdbh@comcast.net >> >> > > > Andy > > > _______________________________________________ > OPSAWG mailing list > OPSAWG@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg > _______________________________________________ MIB2RDML mailing list MIB2RDML@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib2rdml From mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 13 12:40:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcxx-0007jL-Lc; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Received: from mib2rdml by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcTw-0000OO-W4 for mib2rdml-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:09:28 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcTu-0000N7-BL for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:09:28 -0400 Received: from smtp119.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.92]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcTt-0002aw-Tv for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:09:26 -0400 Received: (qmail 37129 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2007 16:09:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.11?) (andybierman@att.net@75.50.187.99 with plain) by smtp119.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2007 16:09:00 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: xUK49esVM1mY_mO7bi6Zy31EK0OGOOHC0KJqbqLKSKHGY2C9 Message-ID: <46C081C1.6000307@andybierman.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:29 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ron Bonica References: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> <46BC9E07.3030502@andybierman.com> <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Cc: ngo@ietf.org, mib2rdml@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, ops-nm@ietf.org Subject: [MIB2RDML] Re: [OPSAWG] Re: [NGO] XSDMI work X-BeenThere: mib2rdml@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: converting MIB modules into resource models List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ron, BTW, there is a simple algorithm for data organization that works even without namespaces. We know that descriptors are not required to be unique across modules, but module names are required to be globally unique. This simple Xpath expression works for any MIB object: /MODULE-NAME/TableName/TableEntry[index components]/tableColumn /IF-MIB/ifTable/ifEntry[ifIndex=17]/ifName /FOO-MIB/fooTable/fooEntry[x=1][y=2][name='fred']/fooColumn Andy _______________________________________________ MIB2RDML mailing list MIB2RDML@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib2rdml From mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 13 12:40:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcxx-0007jH-JJ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Received: from mib2rdml by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcFf-0006zq-5B for mib2rdml-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:54:43 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcFe-0006za-Pi for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:54:42 -0400 Received: from smtp118.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.91]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcFe-00022M-2L for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:54:42 -0400 Received: (qmail 73280 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2007 15:54:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.11?) (andybierman@att.net@75.50.187.99 with plain) by smtp118.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2007 15:54:41 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 33OB0RMVM1k2J_X9YvyJwjayZywHJDWiBWyNFrom mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 13 12:40:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcxx-0007jL-Lc; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Received: from mib2rdml by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcTw-0000OO-W4 for mib2rdml-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:09:28 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcTu-0000N7-BL for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:09:28 -0400 Received: from smtp119.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.92]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcTt-0002aw-Tv for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:09:26 -0400 Received: (qmail 37129 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2007 16:09:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.11?) (andybierman@att.net@75.50.187.99 with plain) by smtp119.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2007 16:09:00 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: xUK49esVM1mY_mO7bi6Zy31EK0OGOOHC0KJqbqLKSKHGY2C9 Message-ID: <46C081C1.6000307@andybierman.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:07:29 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ron Bonica References: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> <46BC9E07.3030502@andybierman.com> <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Cc: ngo@ietf.org, mib2rdml@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, ops-nm@ietf.org Subject: [MIB2RDML] Re: [OPSAWG] Re: [NGO] XSDMI work X-BeenThere: mib2rdml@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: converting MIB modules into resource models List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Hi Ron, BTW, there is a simple algorithm for data organization that works even without namespaces. We know that descriptors are not required to be unique across modules, but module names are required to be globally unique. This simple Xpath expression works for any MIB object: /MODULE-NAME/TableName/TableEntry[index components]/tableColumn /IF-MIB/ifTable/ifEntry[ifIndex=17]/ifName /FOO-MIB/fooTable/fooEntry[x=1][y=2][name='fred']/fooColumn Andy _______________________________________________ MIB2RDML mailing list MIB2RDML@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib2rdml From mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Mon Aug 13 12:40:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcxx-0007jH-JJ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Received: from mib2rdml by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcFf-0006zq-5B for mib2rdml-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:54:43 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcFe-0006za-Pi for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:54:42 -0400 Received: from smtp118.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([69.147.64.91]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKcFe-00022M-2L for mib2rdml@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 11:54:42 -0400 Received: (qmail 73280 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2007 15:54:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.11?) (andybierman@att.net@75.50.187.99 with plain) by smtp118.sbc.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Aug 2007 15:54:41 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 33OB0RMVM1k2J_X9YvyJwjayZywHJDWiBWyNIWNoW.8N4GwRP3M1sUke.cADMTOSCDB9fnPQ_qjo52D_N2wKonOr Message-ID: <46C07E65.8080503@andybierman.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:53:09 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ron Bonica References: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> <46BC9E07.3030502@andybierman.com> <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Cc: ngo@ietf.org, mib2rdml@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, ops-nm@ietf.org Subject: [MIB2RDML] Re: [OPSAWG] Re: [NGO] XSDMI work X-BeenThere: mib2rdml@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: converting MIB modules into resource models List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Ron Bonica wrote: > Andy, David, > > Permit me to ask a few dumb questions so that I can understand a) what > David is proposing and b) why Andy is objecting. > > AFAIKS, David is proposing the following: > > - a mapping from SMIv2 TCs to XSD types > - a mechanism to translate SNMP MIBS to XSD. > > The XSD is an XML schema that is independent of the protocol that is > used to shuffle the data back and forth. In one respect, it is a bit > like Esperanto. It strength is that it omits the details that make it > inappropriate for one protocol or the other. But at the same time, it's > weakness is that it lacks the detail that would be required by any protocol. > That's the pretty picture from 10000 feet > David, Andy, do I have this right? If so, could you guys point out what > some of those omitted/lacking details are? The XSD is going to contain clauses that specify how data naming works for the multiple conceptual instances of the 'table row' (i.e., some ancestor node of all index nodes). In order to be useful for a particular protocol, this naming scheme must be compatible with that protocol. The conceptual data structures are going to use data types that must be supported in that protocol, which impacts DM design. In order to be useful for any protocol, another document would be needed that maps every detail in the SMI-to-XSD algorithm to every detail of the operations (verbs) for that protocol. This is 90% of the work. This generic SMI-to-XSD mapping is the other 10%. IMO, this just complicates things. I would rather the 90% document be 100%, and map SMIv2 directly to the protocol, rather than mapping from SMIv2 to an XSD info model, and then to the protocol. The current proposal contains lots of SNMP-specific details, like engine-IDs, contexts, and max-repetitions. This suggests that the mapping is for SNMP, not SMIv2. IMO, seamless integration of MIB-based data into the NETCONF protocol is an interesting problem to solve. Using a NETCONF session to send SNMP PDUs in XML to the NETCONF agent, who will forward it to the SNMP agent, is not an interesting problem to solve. Andy > > /speaking as individual contributor > /and by no means a data modeling expert > Ron > > > Andy Bierman wrote: >> David Harrington wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> The XSDMI BOF proposed the creation of a WG to develop 1) the XSD >>> equivalents of datatypes and textual conventions from SMIv2, and 2) >>> algorithms to translate MIB module specifications into XSD >>> equivalents. The BOF demonstrated community support for these two work >>> items. >>> People in the BIWNoW.8N4GwRP3M1sUke.cADMTOSCDB9fnPQ_qjo52D_N2wKonOr Message-ID: <46C07E65.8080503@andybierman.com> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 08:53:09 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ron Bonica References: <019701c7db6f$674c3990$6702a8c0@china.huawei.com> <46BC9E07.3030502@andybierman.com> <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <46C06B7B.6080709@juniper.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:40:29 -0400 Cc: ngo@ietf.org, mib2rdml@ietf.org, opsawg@ietf.org, ops-nm@ietf.org Subject: [MIB2RDML] Re: [OPSAWG] Re: [NGO] XSDMI work X-BeenThere: mib2rdml@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: converting MIB modules into resource models List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: mib2rdml-bounces@ietf.org Ron Bonica wrote: > Andy, David, > > Permit me to ask a few dumb questions so that I can understand a) what > David is proposing and b) why Andy is objecting. > > AFAIKS, David is proposing the following: > > - a mapping from SMIv2 TCs to XSD types > - a mechanism to translate SNMP MIBS to XSD. > > The XSD is an XML schema that is independent of the protocol that is > used to shuffle the data back and forth. In one respect, it is a bit > like Esperanto. It strength is that it omits the details that make it > inappropriate for one protocol or the other. But at the same time, it's > weakness is that it lacks the detail that would be required by any protocol. > That's the pretty picture from 10000 feet > David, Andy, do I have this right? If so, could you guys point out what > some of those omitted/lacking details are? The XSD is going to contain clauses that specify how data naming works for the multiple conceptual instances of the 'table row' (i.e., some ancestor node of all index nodes). In order to be useful for a particular protocol, this naming scheme must be compatible with that protocol. The conceptual data structures are going to use data types that must be supported in that protocol, which impacts DM design. In order to be useful for any protocol, another document would be needed that maps every detail in the SMI-to-XSD algorithm to every detail of the operations (verbs) for that protocol. This is 90% of the work. This generic SMI-to-XSD mapping is the other 10%. IMO, this just complicates things. I would rather the 90% document be 100%, and map SMIv2 directly to the protocol, rather than mapping from SMIv2 to an XSD info model, and then to the protocol. The current proposal contains lots of SNMP-specific details, like engine-IDs, contexts, and max-repetitions. This suggests that the mapping is for SNMP, not SMIv2. IMO, seamless integration of MIB-based data into the NETCONF protocol is an interesting problem to solve. Using a NETCONF session to send SNMP PDUs in XML to the NETCONF agent, who will forward it to the SNMP agent, is not an interesting problem to solve. Andy > > /speaking as individual contributor > /and by no means a data modeling expert > Ron > > > Andy Bierman wrote: >> David Harrington wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> The XSDMI BOF proposed the creation of a WG to develop 1) the XSD >>> equivalents of datatypes and textual conventions from SMIv2, and 2) >>> algorithms to translate MIB module specifications into XSD >>> equivalents. The BOF demonstrated community support for these two work >>> items. >>> People in the BOF volunteered to commit to being editors (3) and >>> reviewers (14) for these work items. Starting documents and >>> implementations already exist. The work is expected to take less than >>> 12 months. >>> >>> At Dan's suggestion, rather than starting a new WG for this work, we >>> have proposed that the SMI-to-XSD translation work be done in the >>> OPSAWG. >>> >> I have an objection to this "translation" work. >> You will make all kinds of assumptions about data organization >> and data naming, and I'm not sure what people are supposed >> to do with the XSDs. >> >> The term "XSD translation" is misleading. >> The XML on the wire is what is at stake here. >> The smidump translation of a MIB has SNMP operations >> built into it. Is this work supposed to produce >> a standard way to send an SNMP PDU over any protocol >> designed to encode SNMP PDUs in XML? Why do we need this? >> >> Is the charter going to state that the XSD translation will >> be suitable for use for any particular protocol? >> NETCONF needs to standardize XML data organization, >> namespace usage, and Xpath-based data naming. >> Is this translation going to be compatible with that standard >> when it eventually comes out? >> >> I would like the charter to be clear on the purpose of this work item, >> and what 'protocols' are signed up to use it. >> >> >>> The OPSAWG chairs need to determine whether the OPSAWG WG should >>> accept this work. Please send email to opsawg@ietf.org with comments >>> about your support/lack of support for having the OPSAWG do this work. >>> (If you do not subscribe to opsawg, you might want to do so, in order >>> to follow the discussions.) >>> >>> David Harrington >>> dbharrington@comcast.net >>> ietfdbh@comcast.net >>> >>> >> >> Andy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSAWG mailing list >> OPSAWG@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg >> > > _______________________________________________ MIB2RDML mailing list MIB2RDML@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib2rdml OF volunteered to commit to being editors (3) and >>> reviewers (14) for these work items. Starting documents and >>> implementations already exist. The work is expected to take less than >>> 12 months. >>> >>> At Dan's suggestion, rather than starting a new WG for this work, we >>> have proposed that the SMI-to-XSD translation work be done in the >>> OPSAWG. >>> >> I have an objection to this "translation" work. >> You will make all kinds of assumptions about data organization >> and data naming, and I'm not sure what people are supposed >> to do with the XSDs. >> >> The term "XSD translation" is misleading. >> The XML on the wire is what is at stake here. >> The smidump translation of a MIB has SNMP operations >> built into it. Is this work supposed to produce >> a standard way to send an SNMP PDU over any protocol >> designed to encode SNMP PDUs in XML? Why do we need this? >> >> Is the charter going to state that the XSD translation will >> be suitable for use for any particular protocol? >> NETCONF needs to standardize XML data organization, >> namespace usage, and Xpath-based data naming. >> Is this translation going to be compatible with that standard >> when it eventually comes out? >> >> I would like the charter to be clear on the purpose of this work item, >> and what 'protocols' are signed up to use it. >> >> >>> The OPSAWG chairs need to determine whether the OPSAWG WG should >>> accept this work. Please send email to opsawg@ietf.org with comments >>> about your support/lack of support for having the OPSAWG do this work. >>> (If you do not subscribe to opsawg, you might want to do so, in order >>> to follow the discussions.) >>> >>> David Harrington >>> dbharrington@comcast.net >>> ietfdbh@comcast.net >>> >>> >> >> Andy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OPSAWG mailing list >> OPSAWG@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg >> > > _______________________________________________ MIB2RDML mailing list MIB2RDML@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mib2rdml