
From nobody Mon Apr  8 17:31:35 2019
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From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-secretariat-reply@ietf.org>
To: <draft-omara-mls-federation@ietf.org>, <mls-chairs@ietf.org>, <mls@ietf.org>
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Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2019 17:31:33 -0700
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Subject: [MLS] The MLS WG has placed draft-omara-mls-federation in state "Candidate for WG Adoption"
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The MLS WG has placed draft-omara-mls-federation in state
Candidate for WG Adoption (entered by Nick Sullivan)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omara-mls-federation/


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From: Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 17:32:27 -0700
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Subject: [MLS] Call for adoption: draft-omara-mls-federation
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--00000000000023986a05860e1717
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

At TLS@IETF104, there was consensus in the room to adopt
draft-omara-mls-federation
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omara-mls-federation/>. This
message is to confirm that consensus. If you do not support adoption of
draft-omara-mls-federation as WG item please say so by 2359UTC on 19 April
2019 (and say why).

Thanks,
Nick and Sean

--00000000000023986a05860e1717
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>At TLS@IETF104, there was consensus =
in the room to adopt <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omar=
a-mls-federation/">draft-omara-mls-federation</a>. This message is to confi=
rm that consensus. If you do not support adoption of draft-omara-mls-federa=
tion as WG item please say so by 2359UTC on 19 April 2019 (and say why).</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Nick and Sean</div></div></div>

--00000000000023986a05860e1717--


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From: Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 18:18:26 -0700
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Subject: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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--0000000000008d627505860ebbec
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Hello mlswg,

The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS
interim:
Thursday, May 16th, 2019
Berlin, Germany
Host: Wire

This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at
Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some
time to travel.

Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. If
this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please
indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your
response. There will be a remote participation option.

Sean and Nick

--0000000000008d627505860ebbec
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello mlswg,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS inte=
rim:</div><div>Thursday, May 16th, 2019</div><div>Berlin, Germany</div><div=
>Host: Wire</div><div><br></div><div>This is the Thursday before the Saturd=
ay, May 18 Messaging workshop at Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wi=
shing to attend both have some time to travel.</div><div><br></div><div>Ple=
ase indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. If thi=
s date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please indica=
te your expected level of participation in the interim in your response. Th=
ere will be a remote participation option.</div><div><br></div><div>Sean an=
d Nick</div></div></div>

--0000000000008d627505860ebbec--


From nobody Mon Apr  8 18:21:32 2019
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From: Benjamin Beurdouche <benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr>
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To: Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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Hi Nick, Hi all,

I can confirm that I=E2=80=99ll be attending the interim meeting in =
Berlin=E2=80=A6 :)

Best,
Benjamin

> On Apr 9, 2019, at 3:18 AM, Nick Sullivan =
<nick=3D40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello mlswg,
>=20
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS =
interim:
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
> Berlin, Germany
> Host: Wire
>=20
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at =
Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some =
time to travel.
>=20
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this =
date. If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to =
come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the =
interim in your response. There will be a remote participation option.
>=20
> Sean and Nick
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


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From: Yevgeniy Dodis <dodis@cs.nyu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 22:38:02 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMvzKshiTzQDGJSen8Rx2AXbrD0OOzLUWbAKaJRsMag+HAxpmg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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Already booked my travel, so still in NY that day.

Would like to participate remotely if possible.
Thanks,
Yevgeniy

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 9:18 PM Nick Sullivan <nick=
40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hello mlswg,
>
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS
> interim:
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
> Berlin, Germany
> Host: Wire
>
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at
> Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some
> time to travel.
>
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. If
> this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please
> indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your
> response. There will be a remote participation option.
>
> Sean and Nick
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Already booked my travel, so still in NY that day.<div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Would like to participate remotely i=
f possible.</div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Yevgeniy<=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 9:18 PM Nick Sullivan &lt;nick=3D<a href=3D"mailt=
o:40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div>Hello mlswg,</div><div><br></div><div>The chairs would like to p=
ropose the following date for the next MLS interim:</div><div>Thursday, May=
 16th, 2019</div><div>Berlin, Germany</div><div>Host: Wire</div><div><br></=
div><div>This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging worksho=
p at Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have so=
me time to travel.</div><div><br></div><div>Please indicate if you would pl=
an on attending an interim on this date. If this date and location are not =
suitable and you planned to come, please indicate your expected level of pa=
rticipation in the interim in your response. There will be a remote partici=
pation option.</div><div><br></div><div>Sean and Nick</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:17:35 +0100
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To: Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Call for adoption: draft-omara-mls-federation
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I appreciate you didn't ask for affirmation, but nevertheless - the
structures and architecture described by this draft look useful to me, and
would benefit from being worked on within this group, so I also support
adoption of the draft.

On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 01:32, Nick Sullivan <nick=
40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> At TLS@IETF104, there was consensus in the room to adopt
> draft-omara-mls-federation
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-omara-mls-federation/>. This
> message is to confirm that consensus. If you do not support adoption of
> draft-omara-mls-federation as WG item please say so by 2359UTC on 19 April
> 2019 (and say why).
>
> Thanks,
> Nick and Sean
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I appreciate you didn&#39;t ask for affirmation, but never=
theless - the structures and architecture described by this draft look usef=
ul to me, and would benefit from being worked on within this group, so I al=
so support adoption of the draft.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 01:32, Nick Sullivan=
 &lt;nick=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40cloudflare=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>At TLS@IETF104, t=
here was consensus in the room to adopt <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-omara-mls-federation/" target=3D"_blank">draft-omara-mls-fed=
eration</a>. This message is to confirm that consensus. If you do not suppo=
rt adoption of draft-omara-mls-federation as WG item please say so by 2359U=
TC on 19 April 2019 (and say why).</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><d=
iv>Nick and Sean</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Jon Millican <jmillican@fb.com>
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Thread-Topic: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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Hello all,

I will aim to attend in person.

Thanks,
Jon

Sent from my iPhone

> On 8 Apr 2019, at 18:19, Nick Sullivan <nick=3D40cloudflare.com@dmarc.iet=
f.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello mlswg,
>=20
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS inte=
rim:
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
> Berlin, Germany
> Host: Wire
>=20
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at Eu=
rocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some time=
 to travel.
>=20
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. I=
f this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please i=
ndicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your respons=
e. There will be a remote participation option.
>=20
> Sean and Nick
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_mls&d=3DDwICAg&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DM0CVEJydBVUX_bvEq=
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From nobody Tue Apr  9 09:47:56 2019
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From: Karthik Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 18:47:40 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+_8ft7ib-eKMDSjWrY34ytLX9Gk1YPP2xfeWTx7Uv0zXRYk0Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Messaging Layer Security WG <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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I plan to attend.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan <nick=
40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hello mlswg,
>
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS
> interim:
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
> Berlin, Germany
> Host: Wire
>
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at
> Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some
> time to travel.
>
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. If
> this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please
> indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your
> response. There will be a remote participation option.
>
> Sean and Nick
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

--000000000000b7618405861bb6f8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I plan to attend.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sulli=
van &lt;nick=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40cloudfl=
are.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello mlswg,</=
div><div><br></div><div>The chairs would like to propose the following date=
 for the next MLS interim:</div><div>Thursday, May 16th, 2019</div><div>Ber=
lin, Germany</div><div>Host: Wire</div><div><br></div><div>This is the Thur=
sday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at Eurocrypt in Darmsta=
dt, so those people wishing to attend both have some time to travel.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interi=
m on this date. If this date and location are not suitable and you planned =
to come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the interi=
m in your response. There will be a remote participation option.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Sean and Nick</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 15:56:23 -0400
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To: Karthik Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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I plan to attend in person.  I can also hang around for the morning of the
17th (modulo train schedules to Darmstadt) if folks want to have informal
discussions / interop.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 12:48 PM Karthik Bhargavan <
karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com> wrote:

> I plan to attend.
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan <nick=
> 40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello mlswg,
>>
>> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS
>> interim:
>> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
>> Berlin, Germany
>> Host: Wire
>>
>> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at
>> Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some
>> time to travel.
>>
>> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date.
>> If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please
>> indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your
>> response. There will be a remote participation option.
>>
>> Sean and Nick
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I plan to attend in person.=C2=A0 I can also hang around f=
or the morning of the 17th (modulo train schedules to Darmstadt) if folks w=
ant to have informal discussions / interop.<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 12:48=
 PM Karthik Bhargavan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com">ka=
rthik.bhargavan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I plan to attend.</div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 9, 2=
019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan &lt;nick=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello mlswg,</div><div><br></div><div>The ch=
airs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS interim:</di=
v><div>Thursday, May 16th, 2019</div><div>Berlin, Germany</div><div>Host: W=
ire</div><div><br></div><div>This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May =
18 Messaging workshop at Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to=
 attend both have some time to travel.</div><div><br></div><div>Please indi=
cate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. If this date a=
nd location are not suitable and you planned to come, please indicate your =
expected level of participation in the interim in your response. There will=
 be a remote participation option.</div><div><br></div><div>Sean and Nick</=
div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Raphael Robert <raphael@wire.com>
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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:26:03 +0200
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Cc: Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Karthik Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>
To: Messaging Layer Security WG <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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I will attend as well.

Raphael

> On 9 Apr 2019, at 18:47, Karthik Bhargavan =
<karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I plan to attend.
>=20
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan =
<nick=3D40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> Hello mlswg,
>=20
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS =
interim:
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
> Berlin, Germany
> Host: Wire
>=20
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at =
Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some =
time to travel.
>=20
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this =
date. If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to =
come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the =
interim in your response. There will be a remote participation option.
>=20
> Sean and Nick
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org <mailto:MLS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
will attend as well.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Raphael<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 9 Apr 2019, at 18:47, =
Karthik Bhargavan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">I plan to attend.</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr =
9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan &lt;nick=3D<a =
href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hello mlswg,</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The chairs would like to =
propose the following date for the next MLS interim:</div><div =
class=3D"">Thursday, May 16th, 2019</div><div class=3D"">Berlin, =
Germany</div><div class=3D"">Host: Wire</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is the Thursday before the =
Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those =
people wishing to attend both have some time to travel.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Please indicate if you =
would plan on attending an interim on this date. If this date and =
location are not suitable and you planned to come, please indicate your =
expected level of participation in the interim in your response. There =
will be a remote participation option.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sean and Nick</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
MLS mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">MLS =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">MLS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:28:00 +0200
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To: Raphael Robert <raphael=40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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I will be there too.

- Jo=C3=ABl

On Tue, 9 Apr 2019, 22:26 Raphael Robert, <raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.=
org>
wrote:

> I will attend as well.
>
> Raphael
>
> On 9 Apr 2019, at 18:47, Karthik Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I plan to attend.
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan <nick=3D
> 40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello mlswg,
>>
>> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS
>> interim:
>> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
>> Berlin, Germany
>> Host: Wire
>>
>> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at
>> Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some
>> time to travel.
>>
>> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date.
>> If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, plea=
se
>> indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your
>> response. There will be a remote participation option.
>>
>> Sean and Nick
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>I will be there too.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">- Jo=C3=ABl<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"au=
to"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 9 Apr 2019, 22:26 Raphael=
 Robert, &lt;raphael=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40wire.=
com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">I will atte=
nd as well.<div><br></div><div>Raphael<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div>On 9 Apr 2019, at 18:47, Karthik Bhargavan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kar=
thik.bhargavan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">karthik.bhar=
gavan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_8939535198358898217Apple=
-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I plan to attend.</div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 9,=
 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan &lt;nick=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">40cloudflare.com@dma=
rc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello mlswg,</div><div><b=
r></div><div>The chairs would like to propose the following date for the ne=
xt MLS interim:</div><div>Thursday, May 16th, 2019</div><div>Berlin, German=
y</div><div>Host: Wire</div><div><br></div><div>This is the Thursday before=
 the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so thos=
e people wishing to attend both have some time to travel.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this d=
ate. If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, pl=
ease indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your r=
esponse. There will be a remote participation option.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Sean and Nick</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>MLS mailing list<br><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ietf.o=
rg</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>=
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>__________________________________=
_____________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From: Cas Cremers <cas.cremers@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:29:03 +0200
Message-ID: <CABdrxL6V_kgHJrJF=MXKDHKD5nr+xBiHad=4qUirYGUxg=Z2yQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com>
Cc: Raphael Robert <raphael=40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  ML Messaging Layer Security <mls@ietf.org>, Karthik Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>,  Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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I plan to attend too.

Best,

Cas

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 10:28 PM Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com> wrote:
>
> I will be there too.
>
> - Jo=C3=ABl
>
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019, 22:26 Raphael Robert, <raphael=3D40wire.com@dmarc.iet=
f.org> wrote:
>>
>> I will attend as well.
>>
>> Raphael
>>
>> On 9 Apr 2019, at 18:47, Karthik Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>>
>> I plan to attend.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan <nick=3D40cloudflare.com@dm=
arc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello mlswg,
>>>
>>> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS in=
terim:
>>> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
>>> Berlin, Germany
>>> Host: Wire
>>>
>>> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at =
Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some ti=
me to travel.
>>>
>>> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date.=
 If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please=
 indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your respo=
nse. There will be a remote participation option.
>>>
>>> Sean and Nick
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLS mailing list
>>> MLS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


From nobody Wed Apr 10 07:23:26 2019
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From: Konrad Kohbrok <konrad.kohbrok@datashrine.de>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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I will also be there.

Cheers,
Konrad

On 09/04/2019 23:29, Cas Cremers wrote:
> I plan to attend too.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Cas
> 
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 10:28 PM Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com> wrote:
>>
>> I will be there too.
>>
>> - Joël
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019, 22:26 Raphael Robert, <raphael=40wire.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I will attend as well.
>>>
>>> Raphael
>>>
>>> On 9 Apr 2019, at 18:47, Karthik Bhargavan <karthik.bhargavan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I plan to attend.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:18 AM Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello mlswg,
>>>>
>>>> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS interim:
>>>> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
>>>> Berlin, Germany
>>>> Host: Wire
>>>>
>>>> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some time to travel.
>>>>
>>>> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your response. There will be a remote participation option.
>>>>
>>>> Sean and Nick
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> MLS mailing list
>>>> MLS@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLS mailing list
>>> MLS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLS mailing list
>>> MLS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
> 


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From: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 22:39:41 -0700
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To: "Hale, Britta (CIV)" <britta.hale@nps.edu>
Cc: Nick Sullivan <nick=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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I like to attend as remote attendee

Thanks
Suhas

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 4:07 PM Hale, Britta (CIV) <britta.hale@nps.edu>
wrote:

> I am planning to attend as well.
>
>
>
> -- Britta
>
>
>
> *From: *MLS <mls-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Nick Sullivan <nick=
> 40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Monday, April 8, 2019 at 6:18 PM
> *To: *"mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
>
>
>
> Hello mlswg,
>
>
>
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS
> interim:
>
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
>
> Berlin, Germany
>
> Host: Wire
>
>
>
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at
> Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some
> time to travel.
>
>
>
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this date. If
> this date and location are not suitable and you planned to come, please
> indicate your expected level of participation in the interim in your
> response. There will be a remote participation option.
>
>
>
> Sean and Nick
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

--00000000000084581305863a9d8f
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I like to attend as remote attendee=C2=A0<div><br></div><d=
iv>Thanks</div><div>Suhas</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 4:07 PM Hale, Britta=
 (CIV) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:britta.hale@nps.edu">britta.hale@nps.edu</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-7377934911127995290WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am planning to attend as well.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">-- Britta</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">MLS &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mls-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; o=
n behalf of Nick Sullivan &lt;nick=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.com@dma=
rc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, April 8, 2019 at 6:18 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mls@ietf=
.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mls@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello mlswg,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The chairs would like to propose the following date =
for the next MLS interim:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thursday, May 16th, 2019<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Berlin, Germany<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Host: Wire<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Mes=
saging workshop at Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to atten=
d both have some time to travel.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please indicate if you would plan on attending an in=
terim on this date. If this date and location are not suitable and you plan=
ned to come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the in=
terim in your response. There will
 be a remote participation option.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sean and Nick<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000084581305863a9d8f--


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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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Just for the record I=E2=80=99ll be remote as well.

spt

> On Apr 11, 2019, at 01:39, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I like to attend as remote attendee=20
>=20
> Thanks
> Suhas
>=20
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 4:07 PM Hale, Britta (CIV) =
<britta.hale@nps.edu> wrote:
> I am planning to attend as well.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> -- Britta
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: MLS <mls-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Nick Sullivan =
<nick=3D40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Date: Monday, April 8, 2019 at 6:18 PM
> To: "mls@ietf..org" <mls@ietf.org>
> Subject: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Hello mlswg,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS =
interim:
>=20
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
>=20
> Berlin, Germany
>=20
> Host: Wire
>=20
> =20
>=20
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at =
Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have some =
time to travel.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this =
date. If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to =
come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the =
interim in your response. There will be a remote participation option.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Sean and Nick
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 16:07:22 +0200
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Subject: [MLS] New Tree-based Application Key Schedule
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Hey everyone,

I've submitted a PR implementing a tree-based application key schedule
based on the ideas proposed by Benjamin Beurdouche, Sandro Corretti,
Yevgeniy Dodis and myself.

On the one hand it allows for easy handling of concurrent / out of order
message delivery within an epoch (as each group member has their own
independent symmetric ratchet). On the other hand it avoids having to do
linear amounts of hashing and key/nonce storage as soon the moment the
first message in an epoch is sent (as would be the case if we
immediately seed all sender ratchets directly from application_secret as
in the 03 draft).

Basic idea:
- The Application Key Schedule consists of a left balanced binary tree
of secrets (the "AS Tree") and one symmetric ratchet per group member.
The AS Tree has the same node/edge structure as the ratchet tree for
that epoch. Members are assigned the same leaves.
- Each node in the AS Tree is assigned a secret. The root's secret =
application_secret. The secrets of children are derived from that of
their parent.
- The secret of a leaf is the initial secret of a symmetric hash
ratchet. The ratchet generates the key/nonce sequence used by the leaf's
group member to encrypt messages during that epoch.

Other comments:
- I included a "Deletion Schedule": keys, nonces are 'consumed' if they
are used to encrypt or successfully decrypt a message. Secrets are
'consumed' if a value derived from them are consumed. Any consumed value
must be immediately deleted (for reasons of forward secrecy).
- Maybe the most contentious issue: I was very generous with contexts
for all calls to HKDF. E.g. I included Hash(GroupState_[n]) in the
context of every call. I doubt its needed to prove security against more
coarse adversarial models (e.g. ones that only do all-or-nothing state
leakage). Still, as a matter of the "defense in depth" principle I think
including as much relevant context as possible during all key/secret
derivation is a good idea. Albeit only as long as the price (in
computation, complexity, etc) is not too high. To that end, I used
Hash(GroupState_[n]) instead of GroupState_[n] directly in the context
as it is much short, needs only to be computed once at the start of the
epoch and can then be used to very cheaply to construct any context
needed for the rest of the new schedule.

Curious what you all think!
- Joël


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From: Alexander Sherkin <Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae>
To: Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>, "mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:14:24 -0400
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To: Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com>
Cc: Messaging Layer Security WG <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] New Tree-based Application Key Schedule
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Hey Jo=C3=ABl,

Thanks a lot for putting this together.  I'll review the PR shortly.  In
case other folks need it, here's the link for the PR:

https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/146

Overall, I think this is a sane idea.  The thing that really sells it to me
is your observation that the AS tree has the same structure as the ratchet
tree, which points to a very elegant implementation approach:

- Add a field to each ratchet tree node to store an app secret or nil
- On epoch update, clear out all the app secrets in the tree, and set the
root node's app secret to the epoch app secret
- When you need an app secret for a leaf (to encrypt or decrypt)
  - Search toward the root until you find a node with an app secret set
  - Work back out to the leaf, deriving the two app secrets for the
children and deleting the parent app secret

On the "deletion schedule" idea: I might be wrong, but I don't think we're
going to be able to be super tight here.  Applications are going to want to
be able to tolerate out-of-order messages, in which case you're going to
want to keep around a parent secret after one or more of its descendants
have been consumed.  I like the "consumed" idea and terminology, we just
might have to apply it with a bit of flexibility.

On the "context" question: I don't really feel strongly here.  The current
scheme doesn't really fold in any group context at all, which is consistent
with what TLS does [1].  Given that that's simpler, I might be tempted to
keep things that way until we find that there's some deficiency.

--Richard

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-7.2


On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:07 AM Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com> wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> I've submitted a PR implementing a tree-based application key schedule
> based on the ideas proposed by Benjamin Beurdouche, Sandro Corretti,
> Yevgeniy Dodis and myself.
>
> On the one hand it allows for easy handling of concurrent / out of order
> message delivery within an epoch (as each group member has their own
> independent symmetric ratchet). On the other hand it avoids having to do
> linear amounts of hashing and key/nonce storage as soon the moment the
> first message in an epoch is sent (as would be the case if we
> immediately seed all sender ratchets directly from application_secret as
> in the 03 draft).
>
> Basic idea:
> - The Application Key Schedule consists of a left balanced binary tree
> of secrets (the "AS Tree") and one symmetric ratchet per group member.
> The AS Tree has the same node/edge structure as the ratchet tree for
> that epoch. Members are assigned the same leaves.
> - Each node in the AS Tree is assigned a secret. The root's secret =3D
> application_secret. The secrets of children are derived from that of
> their parent.
> - The secret of a leaf is the initial secret of a symmetric hash
> ratchet. The ratchet generates the key/nonce sequence used by the leaf's
> group member to encrypt messages during that epoch.
>
> Other comments:
> - I included a "Deletion Schedule": keys, nonces are 'consumed' if they
> are used to encrypt or successfully decrypt a message. Secrets are
> 'consumed' if a value derived from them are consumed. Any consumed value
> must be immediately deleted (for reasons of forward secrecy).
> - Maybe the most contentious issue: I was very generous with contexts
> for all calls to HKDF. E.g. I included Hash(GroupState_[n]) in the
> context of every call. I doubt its needed to prove security against more
> coarse adversarial models (e.g. ones that only do all-or-nothing state
> leakage). Still, as a matter of the "defense in depth" principle I think
> including as much relevant context as possible during all key/secret
> derivation is a good idea. Albeit only as long as the price (in
> computation, complexity, etc) is not too high. To that end, I used
> Hash(GroupState_[n]) instead of GroupState_[n] directly in the context
> as it is much short, needs only to be computed once at the start of the
> epoch and can then be used to very cheaply to construct any context
> needed for the rest of the new schedule.
>
> Curious what you all think!
> - Jo=C3=ABl
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

--000000000000dfed9d058659461b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey Jo=C3=ABl,</div=
><div><br></div><div>Thanks a lot for putting this together.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll=
 review the PR shortly.=C2=A0 In case other folks need it, here&#39;s the l=
ink for the PR:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlsw=
g/mls-protocol/pull/146">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/146</a>=
</div><div><br></div><div>Overall, I think this is a sane idea.=C2=A0 The t=
hing that really sells it to me is your observation that the AS tree has th=
e same structure as the ratchet tree, which points to a very elegant implem=
entation approach:</div><div><br></div><div>- Add a field to each ratchet t=
ree node to store an app secret or nil<br></div><div>- On epoch update, cle=
ar out all the app secrets in the tree, and set the root node&#39;s app sec=
ret to the epoch app secret</div><div>- When you need an app secret for a l=
eaf (to encrypt or decrypt)</div><div>=C2=A0 - Search toward the root until=
 you find a node with an app secret set</div><div>=C2=A0 - Work back out to=
 the leaf, deriving the two app secrets for the children and deleting the p=
arent app secret</div><div><br></div><div>On the &quot;deletion schedule&qu=
ot; idea: I might be wrong, but I don&#39;t think we&#39;re going to be abl=
e to be super tight here.=C2=A0 Applications are going to want to be able t=
o tolerate out-of-order messages, in which case you&#39;re going to want to=
 keep around a parent secret after one or more of its descendants have been=
 consumed.=C2=A0 I like the &quot;consumed&quot; idea and terminology, we j=
ust might have to apply it with a bit of flexibility.</div><div><br></div><=
div>On the &quot;context&quot; question: I don&#39;t really feel strongly h=
ere.=C2=A0 The current scheme doesn&#39;t really fold in any group context =
at all, which is consistent with what TLS does [1].=C2=A0 Given that that&#=
39;s simpler, I might be tempted to keep things that way until we find that=
 there&#39;s some deficiency.</div><div><br></div><div>--Richard<br></div><=
div><br></div><div>[1] <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#secti=
on-7.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-7.2</a><br></div><div><=
br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r">On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:07 AM Joel Alwen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jalwen=
@wickr.com">jalwen@wickr.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hey everyone,<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve submitted a PR implementing a tree-based application key schedule<=
br>
based on the ideas proposed by Benjamin Beurdouche, Sandro Corretti,<br>
Yevgeniy Dodis and myself.<br>
<br>
On the one hand it allows for easy handling of concurrent / out of order<br=
>
message delivery within an epoch (as each group member has their own<br>
independent symmetric ratchet). On the other hand it avoids having to do<br=
>
linear amounts of hashing and key/nonce storage as soon the moment the<br>
first message in an epoch is sent (as would be the case if we<br>
immediately seed all sender ratchets directly from application_secret as<br=
>
in the 03 draft).<br>
<br>
Basic idea:<br>
- The Application Key Schedule consists of a left balanced binary tree<br>
of secrets (the &quot;AS Tree&quot;) and one symmetric ratchet per group me=
mber.<br>
The AS Tree has the same node/edge structure as the ratchet tree for<br>
that epoch. Members are assigned the same leaves.<br>
- Each node in the AS Tree is assigned a secret. The root&#39;s secret =3D<=
br>
application_secret. The secrets of children are derived from that of<br>
their parent.<br>
- The secret of a leaf is the initial secret of a symmetric hash<br>
ratchet. The ratchet generates the key/nonce sequence used by the leaf&#39;=
s<br>
group member to encrypt messages during that epoch.<br>
<br>
Other comments:<br>
- I included a &quot;Deletion Schedule&quot;: keys, nonces are &#39;consume=
d&#39; if they<br>
are used to encrypt or successfully decrypt a message. Secrets are<br>
&#39;consumed&#39; if a value derived from them are consumed. Any consumed =
value<br>
must be immediately deleted (for reasons of forward secrecy).<br>
- Maybe the most contentious issue: I was very generous with contexts<br>
for all calls to HKDF. E.g. I included Hash(GroupState_[n]) in the<br>
context of every call. I doubt its needed to prove security against more<br=
>
coarse adversarial models (e.g. ones that only do all-or-nothing state<br>
leakage). Still, as a matter of the &quot;defense in depth&quot; principle =
I think<br>
including as much relevant context as possible during all key/secret<br>
derivation is a good idea. Albeit only as long as the price (in<br>
computation, complexity, etc) is not too high. To that end, I used<br>
Hash(GroupState_[n]) instead of GroupState_[n] directly in the context<br>
as it is much short, needs only to be computed once at the start of the<br>
epoch and can then be used to very cheaply to construct any context<br>
needed for the rest of the new schedule.<br>
<br>
Curious what you all think!<br>
- Jo=C3=ABl<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000dfed9d058659461b--


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From: Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 20:27:58 +0200
Message-ID: <CANYP600AP_YwLONBedh5FJTbWMjj2j5AhugBN8vheeekM_41ig@mail.gmail.com>
To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Cc: Messaging Layer Security WG <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] New Tree-based Application Key Schedule
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Hey Richard,

Thanks for your response! For the deletion schedule I think there's no
problem with out-of-order messaging. Basically if a secret is consumed then
just before deleting it derive any (unconsumed) children values that may
still be needed.

E.g. if in a ratchet msg j arrives before j'<j then first derive the j'-th
key/nonce for deleteing secret j'. The same goes for any other (now
consumed) secrets between j and j' in that ratchet. That way if any of
those msgs arrive one can still decrypt them. But if there's a state
leakage nothing useful for decrypting the j-th msg is leaked since keys &
nonces are dead ends in the derivation hierarchy.

Similarly in the AS Tree if a node's secret is marked as consumed then just
before deleting it derive and store the secrets of its unconsumed child.

- Jo=C3=ABl


On Fri, 12 Apr 2019, 20:14 Richard Barnes, <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:

> Hey Jo=C3=ABl,
>
> Thanks a lot for putting this together.  I'll review the PR shortly.  In
> case other folks need it, here's the link for the PR:
>
> https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/146
>
> Overall, I think this is a sane idea.  The thing that really sells it to
> me is your observation that the AS tree has the same structure as the
> ratchet tree, which points to a very elegant implementation approach:
>
> - Add a field to each ratchet tree node to store an app secret or nil
> - On epoch update, clear out all the app secrets in the tree, and set the
> root node's app secret to the epoch app secret
> - When you need an app secret for a leaf (to encrypt or decrypt)
>   - Search toward the root until you find a node with an app secret set
>   - Work back out to the leaf, deriving the two app secrets for the
> children and deleting the parent app secret
>
> On the "deletion schedule" idea: I might be wrong, but I don't think we'r=
e
> going to be able to be super tight here.  Applications are going to want =
to
> be able to tolerate out-of-order messages, in which case you're going to
> want to keep around a parent secret after one or more of its descendants
> have been consumed.  I like the "consumed" idea and terminology, we just
> might have to apply it with a bit of flexibility.
>
> On the "context" question: I don't really feel strongly here.  The curren=
t
> scheme doesn't really fold in any group context at all, which is consiste=
nt
> with what TLS does [1].  Given that that's simpler, I might be tempted to
> keep things that way until we find that there's some deficiency.
>
> --Richard
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-7.2
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:07 AM Joel Alwen <jalwen@wickr.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I've submitted a PR implementing a tree-based application key schedule
>> based on the ideas proposed by Benjamin Beurdouche, Sandro Corretti,
>> Yevgeniy Dodis and myself.
>>
>> On the one hand it allows for easy handling of concurrent / out of order
>> message delivery within an epoch (as each group member has their own
>> independent symmetric ratchet). On the other hand it avoids having to do
>> linear amounts of hashing and key/nonce storage as soon the moment the
>> first message in an epoch is sent (as would be the case if we
>> immediately seed all sender ratchets directly from application_secret as
>> in the 03 draft).
>>
>> Basic idea:
>> - The Application Key Schedule consists of a left balanced binary tree
>> of secrets (the "AS Tree") and one symmetric ratchet per group member.
>> The AS Tree has the same node/edge structure as the ratchet tree for
>> that epoch. Members are assigned the same leaves.
>> - Each node in the AS Tree is assigned a secret. The root's secret =3D
>> application_secret. The secrets of children are derived from that of
>> their parent.
>> - The secret of a leaf is the initial secret of a symmetric hash
>> ratchet. The ratchet generates the key/nonce sequence used by the leaf's
>> group member to encrypt messages during that epoch.
>>
>> Other comments:
>> - I included a "Deletion Schedule": keys, nonces are 'consumed' if they
>> are used to encrypt or successfully decrypt a message. Secrets are
>> 'consumed' if a value derived from them are consumed. Any consumed value
>> must be immediately deleted (for reasons of forward secrecy).
>> - Maybe the most contentious issue: I was very generous with contexts
>> for all calls to HKDF. E.g. I included Hash(GroupState_[n]) in the
>> context of every call. I doubt its needed to prove security against more
>> coarse adversarial models (e.g. ones that only do all-or-nothing state
>> leakage). Still, as a matter of the "defense in depth" principle I think
>> including as much relevant context as possible during all key/secret
>> derivation is a good idea. Albeit only as long as the price (in
>> computation, complexity, etc) is not too high. To that end, I used
>> Hash(GroupState_[n]) instead of GroupState_[n] directly in the context
>> as it is much short, needs only to be computed once at the start of the
>> epoch and can then be used to very cheaply to construct any context
>> needed for the rest of the new schedule.
>>
>> Curious what you all think!
>> - Jo=C3=ABl
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
>

--00000000000093de430586598255
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hey Richard,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">Thanks for your response! For the deletion schedule I think there&#39=
;s no problem with out-of-order messaging. Basically if a secret is consume=
d then just before deleting it derive any (unconsumed) children values that=
 may still be needed.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">E.g. if in a ratchet msg j arrives before j&#39;&lt;j then first derive=
 the j&#39;-th key/nonce for deleteing secret j&#39;. The same goes for any=
 other (now consumed) secrets between j and j&#39; in that ratchet. That wa=
y if any of those msgs arrive one can still decrypt them. But if there&#39;=
s a state leakage nothing useful for decrypting the j-th msg is leaked sinc=
e keys &amp; nonces are dead ends in the derivation hierarchy.=C2=A0</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Similarly in the AS Tree if a =
node&#39;s secret is marked as consumed then just before deleting it derive=
 and store the secrets of its unconsumed child.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">-=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">Jo=C3=
=ABl</span></div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 12 Apr 2019, 20:14 Richard Barnes, &lt;rlb@ipv.sx&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey Jo=C3=ABl,</div><div><br></div><div>Than=
ks a lot for putting this together.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll review the PR shortly.=
=C2=A0 In case other folks need it, here&#39;s the link for the PR:</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/146=
" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protoco=
l/pull/146</a></div><div><br></div><div>Overall, I think this is a sane ide=
a.=C2=A0 The thing that really sells it to me is your observation that the =
AS tree has the same structure as the ratchet tree, which points to a very =
elegant implementation approach:</div><div><br></div><div>- Add a field to =
each ratchet tree node to store an app secret or nil<br></div><div>- On epo=
ch update, clear out all the app secrets in the tree, and set the root node=
&#39;s app secret to the epoch app secret</div><div>- When you need an app =
secret for a leaf (to encrypt or decrypt)</div><div>=C2=A0 - Search toward =
the root until you find a node with an app secret set</div><div>=C2=A0 - Wo=
rk back out to the leaf, deriving the two app secrets for the children and =
deleting the parent app secret</div><div><br></div><div>On the &quot;deleti=
on schedule&quot; idea: I might be wrong, but I don&#39;t think we&#39;re g=
oing to be able to be super tight here.=C2=A0 Applications are going to wan=
t to be able to tolerate out-of-order messages, in which case you&#39;re go=
ing to want to keep around a parent secret after one or more of its descend=
ants have been consumed.=C2=A0 I like the &quot;consumed&quot; idea and ter=
minology, we just might have to apply it with a bit of flexibility.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>On the &quot;context&quot; question: I don&#39;t really f=
eel strongly here.=C2=A0 The current scheme doesn&#39;t really fold in any =
group context at all, which is consistent with what TLS does [1].=C2=A0 Giv=
en that that&#39;s simpler, I might be tempted to keep things that way unti=
l we find that there&#39;s some deficiency.</div><div><br></div><div>--Rich=
ard<br></div><div><br></div><div>[1] <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/rfc8446#section-7.2" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc8446#section-7.2</a><br></div><div><br></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 12, 2019=
 at 10:07 AM Joel Alwen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jalwen@wickr.com" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">jalwen@wickr.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hey everyone,<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve submitted a PR implementing a tree-based application key schedule<=
br>
based on the ideas proposed by Benjamin Beurdouche, Sandro Corretti,<br>
Yevgeniy Dodis and myself.<br>
<br>
On the one hand it allows for easy handling of concurrent / out of order<br=
>
message delivery within an epoch (as each group member has their own<br>
independent symmetric ratchet). On the other hand it avoids having to do<br=
>
linear amounts of hashing and key/nonce storage as soon the moment the<br>
first message in an epoch is sent (as would be the case if we<br>
immediately seed all sender ratchets directly from application_secret as<br=
>
in the 03 draft).<br>
<br>
Basic idea:<br>
- The Application Key Schedule consists of a left balanced binary tree<br>
of secrets (the &quot;AS Tree&quot;) and one symmetric ratchet per group me=
mber.<br>
The AS Tree has the same node/edge structure as the ratchet tree for<br>
that epoch. Members are assigned the same leaves.<br>
- Each node in the AS Tree is assigned a secret. The root&#39;s secret =3D<=
br>
application_secret. The secrets of children are derived from that of<br>
their parent.<br>
- The secret of a leaf is the initial secret of a symmetric hash<br>
ratchet. The ratchet generates the key/nonce sequence used by the leaf&#39;=
s<br>
group member to encrypt messages during that epoch.<br>
<br>
Other comments:<br>
- I included a &quot;Deletion Schedule&quot;: keys, nonces are &#39;consume=
d&#39; if they<br>
are used to encrypt or successfully decrypt a message. Secrets are<br>
&#39;consumed&#39; if a value derived from them are consumed. Any consumed =
value<br>
must be immediately deleted (for reasons of forward secrecy).<br>
- Maybe the most contentious issue: I was very generous with contexts<br>
for all calls to HKDF. E.g. I included Hash(GroupState_[n]) in the<br>
context of every call. I doubt its needed to prove security against more<br=
>
coarse adversarial models (e.g. ones that only do all-or-nothing state<br>
leakage). Still, as a matter of the &quot;defense in depth&quot; principle =
I think<br>
including as much relevant context as possible during all key/secret<br>
derivation is a good idea. Albeit only as long as the price (in<br>
computation, complexity, etc) is not too high. To that end, I used<br>
Hash(GroupState_[n]) instead of GroupState_[n] directly in the context<br>
as it is much short, needs only to be computed once at the start of the<br>
epoch and can then be used to very cheaply to construct any context<br>
needed for the rest of the new schedule.<br>
<br>
Curious what you all think!<br>
- Jo=C3=ABl<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">MLS@ie=
tf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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Subject: [MLS] Meeting Notes for IETF 104
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All,

The meeting notes are available in the datatracker (
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/session/mls) and on Github (
https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/ietf104).

Corrections welcome.

Nick and Sean

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<div dir=3D"ltr">All,<div><br></div><div>The meeting notes are available in=
 the datatracker (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/sessi=
on/mls">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/session/mls</a>) and on Gi=
thub (<a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/ietf104"=
>https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/ietf104</a>).</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Corrections welcome.</div><div><br></div><div>Nick and Sean<=
/div></div>

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From: Alexander Sherkin <Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae>
To: "mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
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From: Emad Omara <emadomara@google.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 14:11:46 -0700
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To: Alexander Sherkin <Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae>
Cc: "mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
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Hi Alex,

I think the attack makes sense, however it assumes the attacker has some
sort of control for the network of all A's devices in order to perform the
DoS. One mitigation we discussed before that could help in this attack is
to force the max update window, so if a client has issued any update in the
last N days, the app can decide to kick it out of the group, ot at least
issue a warning to other users.

Emad

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 1:58 PM Alexander Sherkin <
Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> I think we briefly discussed this problem in the context of =E2=80=9Cinac=
tive
> users=E2=80=9D, but I want to bring this up again for discussion.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s assume an attacker compromises user A and recovers user A=
=E2=80=99s
> cryptographic state including the leaf secret. After user A is compromise=
d,
> the attacker no longer controls user A. User A will eventually send an
> Update message, and the attacker will no longer have access to the root
> key. We get post-compromise security property.
>
>
>
> However, let=E2=80=99s assume that after compromising user A and recoveri=
ng user A
> crypto state, the attacker performs a denial of service attack on user A
> Update messages (or all messages from user A). The attacker then observes
> the traffic. The attacker will be able to decrypt Update messages from
> other participants and decrypt data-carrying messages as long as other
> participants include user A in their ratchet trees.
>
>
>
> As an interesting thought experiment, we can try to apply the same attack
> to one-on-one use case when double ratcheting is used. To prevent
> ratcheting, the attacker has to block messages from one of the
> participants. Practically, this means that the attacker destroys the
> possibility of two participants having a conversation; hence, data
> collected by the attack will be one participants=E2=80=99 monologue and m=
ay not be
> as valuable. In contrast, when 1 out of 1000 users is isolated, 999
> remaining users will continue having productive conversation creating
> valuable data that the attacker may intercept and decrypt.
>
>
>
> If the above attack vector makes sense, should we consider excluding user=
s
> who did not send Update messages recently enough from the ratchet tree?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Alex.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alexander Sherkin
> Software Architect
>
> <http://www.darkmatter.ae>
> 2 Robert Speck Parkway, Suite 1610
> Mississauga ON  L4Z 1H8
> Canada
> *MT*+1 416 414 7117 <+1%20416%20414%207117>
> *EM*Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae
>
> darkmatter.ae
>
> [image: Linkedin] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/dark-matter-llc> [ima=
ge:
> Twitter] <https://twitter.com/GuardedbyGenius>
>
>
> The information in this email is intended only for the person(s) or entit=
y
> to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential or privileged
> information. If you receive this email by error, please notify us
> immediately, delete the original message and do not disclose the contents
> to any other person, use or store or copy the information in any medium a=
nd
> for whatever purpose. Any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Alex,<div><br></div><div>I think the attack makes sense=
, however it assumes the attacker has some sort of control for the network =
of all A&#39;s devices in order to perform the DoS. One mitigation we discu=
ssed before that could help in this attack is to force the max update windo=
w, so if a client has issued any update in the last N days, the app can dec=
ide to kick it out of the group, ot at least issue a warning=C2=A0to other =
users.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Emad</div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 1:5=
8 PM Alexander Sherkin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.a=
e">Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"EN-CA">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1905508848635567646WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think we briefly discussed this problem in the con=
text of =E2=80=9Cinactive users=E2=80=9D, but I want to bring this up again=
 for discussion.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s assume an attacker compromises user A =
and recovers user A=E2=80=99s cryptographic state including the leaf secret=
. After user A is compromised, the attacker no longer controls user A. User=
 A will eventually send an Update message, and the
 attacker will no longer have access to the root key. We get post-compromis=
e security property.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, let=E2=80=99s assume that after compromisin=
g user A and recovering user A crypto state, the attacker performs a denial=
 of service attack on user A Update messages (or all messages from user A).=
 The attacker then observes the traffic. The
 attacker will be able to decrypt Update messages from other participants a=
nd decrypt data-carrying messages as long as other participants include use=
r A in their ratchet trees.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As an interesting thought experiment, we can try to =
apply the same attack to one-on-one use case when double ratcheting is used=
. To prevent ratcheting, the attacker has to block messages from one of the=
 participants. Practically, this means
 that the attacker destroys the possibility of two participants having a co=
nversation; hence, data collected by the attack will be one participants=E2=
=80=99 monologue and may not be as valuable. In contrast, when 1 out of 100=
0 users is isolated, 999 remaining users
 will continue having productive conversation creating valuable data that t=
he attacker may intercept and decrypt.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the above attack vector makes sense, should we co=
nsider excluding users who did not send Update messages recently enough fro=
m the ratchet tree?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alex.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<table class=3D"gmail-m_-1905508848635567646ImprintUniqueIDTable" style=3D"=
border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%=
" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"350"><font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:10pt;color:r=
gb(150,215,0);font-weight:bold">Alexander Sherkin</font><br>
<table cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" style=3D"font-family:Verdana;fon=
t-size:9pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-align:left;vertical-align:top" class=3D"gm=
ail-m_-19055088486355676466f5c250c-b75f-4647-9810-4967fc4118ccTable">
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<td align=3D"NotSet"><font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:9pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)"></font></td>
<td align=3D"NotSet"><font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:9pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">Software Architect</font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><br>
</td><td nowrap><a href=3D"http://www.darkmatter.ae" target=3D"_blank"><img=
 width=3D"219" height=3D"36" style=3D"border: 0px solid;" src=3D"cid:16a2d2=
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</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<font style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(161,161,161)" size=3D"+0"><font colo=
r=3D"#a5a5a5"><br>
<font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:8pt;color:black">2 Robert Spec=
k Parkway, Suite 1610<br>
Mississauga ON =C2=A0L4Z 1H8</font><br>
<font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:8pt;color:black">Canada</font>=
<br>
<font color=3D"black"><font face=3D"Verdana"><strong><font color=3D"#96d700=
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<br>
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<br>
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please notify us immediately, delete
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From: Alexander Sherkin <Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae>
To: Emad Omara <emadomara@google.com>
CC: "mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [MLS] Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
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Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 18:54:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
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From: Emad Omara <emadomara@google.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 20:40:40 -0700
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To: Alexander Sherkin <Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae>
Cc: "mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:55 AM Alexander Sherkin <
Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae> wrote:

> Hi Emad,
>
>
>
> Could there be a setup where each A=E2=80=99s point of presence (device)
> participates as a separate leaf in the ratchet tree? The advantage of suc=
h
> approach may be to avoid the key synchronization problem between points o=
f
> presence.
>
This is actually the current assumption in the architecture document, each
device is represented as a separate client, however we are also currently
looking into using a virtual client mode where all devices are presented in
a single node.

>
>
Do you see the mechanism of removing users who did not send Updates
> recently should be part of the protocol or should it be driven by the app=
?
>
Well, I see this as just a recommendation to the app, not sure what can be
done at the protocol layer!

>
>
> Thank you.
> Alex.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alexander Sherkin
> Software Architect
>
> <http://www.darkmatter.ae>
> 2 Robert Speck Parkway, Suite 1610
> Mississauga ON  L4Z 1H8
> Canada
> *MT*+1 416 414 7117 <+1%20416%20414%207117>
> *EM*Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae
>
> darkmatter.ae
>
> [image: Linkedin] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/dark-matter-llc> [ima=
ge:
> Twitter] <https://twitter.com/GuardedbyGenius>
>
>
> The information in this email is intended only for the person(s) or entit=
y
> to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential or privileged
> information. If you receive this email by error, please notify us
> immediately, delete the original message and do not disclose the contents
> to any other person, use or store or copy the information in any medium a=
nd
> for whatever purpose. Any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited.
>
> *From:* Emad Omara [mailto:emadomara@google.com]
> *Sent:* April 17, 2019 5:12 PM
> *To:* Alexander Sherkin <Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae>
> *Cc:* mls@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Malware[SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] It may trick victims into clicking
> a link and downloading malware. Do not open suspicious links.Re: [MLS]
> Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
>
>
>
> Hi Alex,
>
>
>
> I think the attack makes sense, however it assumes the attacker has some
> sort of control for the network of all A's devices in order to perform th=
e
> DoS. One mitigation we discussed before that could help in this attack is
> to force the max update window, so if a client has issued any update in t=
he
> last N days, the app can decide to kick it out of the group, ot at least
> issue a warning to other users.
>
>
>
> Emad
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 1:58 PM Alexander Sherkin <
> Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I think we briefly discussed this problem in the context of =E2=80=9Cinac=
tive
> users=E2=80=9D, but I want to bring this up again for discussion.
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s assume an attacker compromises user A and recovers user A=
=E2=80=99s
> cryptographic state including the leaf secret. After user A is compromise=
d,
> the attacker no longer controls user A. User A will eventually send an
> Update message, and the attacker will no longer have access to the root
> key. We get post-compromise security property.
>
>
>
> However, let=E2=80=99s assume that after compromising user A and recoveri=
ng user A
> crypto state, the attacker performs a denial of service attack on user A
> Update messages (or all messages from user A). The attacker then observes
> the traffic. The attacker will be able to decrypt Update messages from
> other participants and decrypt data-carrying messages as long as other
> participants include user A in their ratchet trees.
>
>
>
> As an interesting thought experiment, we can try to apply the same attack
> to one-on-one use case when double ratcheting is used. To prevent
> ratcheting, the attacker has to block messages from one of the
> participants. Practically, this means that the attacker destroys the
> possibility of two participants having a conversation; hence, data
> collected by the attack will be one participants=E2=80=99 monologue and m=
ay not be
> as valuable. In contrast, when 1 out of 1000 users is isolated, 999
> remaining users will continue having productive conversation creating
> valuable data that the attacker may intercept and decrypt.
>
>
>
> If the above attack vector makes sense, should we consider excluding user=
s
> who did not send Update messages recently enough from the ratchet tree?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
> Alex.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Alexander Sherkin*
>
> Software Architect
>
> [image: cid:image001.png@01D4F5C7.2D8B06D0] <http://www.darkmatter.ae/>
>
>
> 2 Robert Speck Parkway, Suite 1610
> Mississauga ON  L4Z 1H8
> Canada
> *M**T*+1 416 414 7117 <+1%20416%20414%207117>
> *E**M*Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae
>
> *darkmatter.ae* <http://darkmatter.ae>
>
> [image: Linkedin] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/dark-matter-llc> [ima=
ge:
> Twitter] <https://twitter.com/GuardedbyGenius>
>
>
> The information in this email is intended only for the person(s) or entit=
y
> to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential or privileged
> information. If you receive this email by error, please notify us
> immediately, delete the original message and do not disclose the contents
> to any other person, use or store or copy the information in any medium a=
nd
> for whatever purpose. Any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:55 AM Alex=
ander Sherkin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae">Alexan=
der.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"EN-CA">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi Emad,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Could there be a setup where each A=E2=80=99=
s point of presence (device) participates as a separate leaf in the ratchet=
 tree? The advantage
 of such approach may be to avoid the key synchronization problem between p=
oints of presence.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>This is actually=
 the current assumption in the architecture document, each device is repres=
ented as a separate client, however we are also currently looking into usin=
g a virtual client mode where all devices are presented in a single node.</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-CA"><=
div class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">=C2=A0</p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-CA"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356Wo=
rdSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Do you see the mechanism of removing users w=
ho did not send Updates recently should be part of the protocol or should i=
t be driven
 by the app?</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Well, I see this as ju=
st a recommendation to the app, not sure what can be done at the protocol l=
ayer!=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-CA"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Thank you.<br>
Alex.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></b></p>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<table class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356ImprintUniqueIDTable" style=3D"b=
order-collapse:collapse" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%"=
 border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"350"><font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:10pt;color:r=
gb(150,215,0);font-weight:bold">Alexander Sherkin</font><br>
<table cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" style=3D"font-family:Verdana;fon=
t-size:9pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-align:left;vertical-align:top" class=3D"gm=
ail-m_56727060168233963564fffb30e-ecfd-4926-ac7b-3227a4ed7744Table">
<tbody>
<tr style=3D"text-align:left;vertical-align:top">
<td align=3D"NotSet"><font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:9pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)"></font></td>
<td align=3D"NotSet"><font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:9pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">Software Architect</font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><br>
</td><td nowrap><a href=3D"http://www.darkmatter.ae" target=3D"_blank"><img=
 width=3D"219" height=3D"36" style=3D"border: 0px solid;" src=3D"cid:16a33a=
bb59b577544244"></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<font style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(161,161,161)" size=3D"+0"><font colo=
r=3D"#a5a5a5"><br>
<font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:8pt;color:black">2 Robert Spec=
k Parkway, Suite 1610<br>
Mississauga ON =C2=A0L4Z 1H8</font><br>
<font style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:8pt;color:black">Canada</font>=
<br>
<font color=3D"black"><font face=3D"Verdana"><strong><font color=3D"#96d700=
" size=3D"1">M<font color=3D"#ffffff">T</font></font></strong></font></font=
><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:8pt;color:black"><a href=3D"t=
el:+1%20416%20414%207117" title=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size=
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 416 414 7117</span></a></span><br>
<font face=3D"Verdana"><font color=3D"#96d700" size=3D"1"><strong>E<font co=
lor=3D"#ffffff">M</font></strong></font></font><span style=3D"font-family:V=
erdana;font-size:8pt;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Sherkin@darkm=
atter.ae" title=3D"Click to send email to Alexander Sherkin" style=3D"font-=
family:Verdana;font-size:8pt;color:black" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
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.ae</span></a></span><br>
<br>
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weight:bold"><a href=3D"http://darkmatter.ae" title=3D"" style=3D"font-fami=
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blank"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:8pt;color:rgb(150,215,0=
);font-weight:bold">darkmatter.ae</span></a></span><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/company/dark-matter-llc" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><img width=3D"32" height=3D"32" style=3D"border: 0px solid;" src=3D"cid=
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yle=3D"border: 0px solid;" src=3D"cid:16a33abb59b8e4d6a4a6" alt=3D"Twitter"=
></a>
<p id=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356undefined"></p>
<br>
<font size=3D"1" face=3D"Verdana">The information in this email is intended=
 only for the person(s) or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain c=
onfidential or privileged information. If you receive this email by error, =
please notify us immediately, delete
 the original message and do not disclose the contents to any other person,=
 use or store or copy the information in any medium and for whatever purpos=
e. Any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited.<br>
</font></font></font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Emad Omara [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:emadomara@google.com" target=3D"_blank">emadomara@google.com</a>=
]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> April 17, 2019 5:12 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Sherkin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Sherkin@darkma=
tter.ae" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mls@ietf.org</=
a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Malware[SUSPICIOUS MESSAGE] It may trick victims into click=
ing a link and downloading malware. Do not open suspicious links.Re: [MLS] =
Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Alex,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the attack makes sense, however it assumes t=
he attacker has some sort of control for the network of all A&#39;s devices=
 in order to perform the DoS. One mitigation we discussed before that could=
 help in this attack is to force the max
 update window, so if a client has issued any update in the last N days, th=
e app can decide to kick it out of the group, ot at least issue a warning=
=C2=A0to other users.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Emad<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 1:58 PM Alexander Sherkin &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae" target=3D"_blank">Alex=
ander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0c=
m 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think we briefly discussed this problem in the con=
text of =E2=80=9Cinactive users=E2=80=9D, but I want to bring this up again=
 for discussion.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let=E2=80=99s assume an attacker compromises user A =
and recovers user A=E2=80=99s cryptographic state including the leaf secret=
. After user A is compromised, the attacker no longer controls user
 A. User A will eventually send an Update message, and the attacker will no=
 longer have access to the root key. We get post-compromise security proper=
ty.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, let=E2=80=99s assume that after compromisin=
g user A and recovering user A crypto state, the attacker performs a denial=
 of service attack on user A Update messages (or all messages
 from user A). The attacker then observes the traffic. The attacker will be=
 able to decrypt Update messages from other participants and decrypt data-c=
arrying messages as long as other participants include user A in their ratc=
het trees.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As an interesting thought experiment, we can try to =
apply the same attack to one-on-one use case when double ratcheting is used=
. To prevent ratcheting, the attacker has to block
 messages from one of the participants. Practically, this means that the at=
tacker destroys the possibility of two participants having a conversation; =
hence, data collected by the attack will be one participants=E2=80=99 monol=
ogue and may not be as valuable. In contrast,
 when 1 out of 1000 users is isolated, 999 remaining users will continue ha=
ving productive conversation creating valuable data that the attacker may i=
ntercept and decrypt.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the above attack vector makes sense, should we co=
nsider excluding users who did not send Update messages recently enough fro=
m the ratchet tree?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alex.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<table class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cel=
lspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" width=3D"100%" style=3D"width:100%;border-=
collapse:collapse">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"350" style=3D"width:262.5pt;padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(150,215,0)">Alexander Sherkin</span></b><span><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<table class=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356MsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cel=
lspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top" style=3D"padding:0cm"></td>
<td valign=3D"top" style=3D"padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Verdana,san=
s-serif;color:black">Software Architect<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D"padding:0cm"></td>
<td nowrap style=3D"padding:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.darkmatter.ae/" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"text-decoration:none"><img border=3D"0" width=3D"219" he=
ight=3D"36" id=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356Picture_x0020_1" src=3D"cid:16=
a33abb59b4cff311" alt=3D"cid:image001.png@01D4F5C7.2D8B06D0"></span></a><sp=
an><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(165,165,165)"=
><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:bl=
ack">2 Robert Speck Parkway, Suite 1610<br>
Mississauga ON =C2=A0L4Z 1H8</span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(1=
65,165,165)"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:bl=
ack">Canada</span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(165,165,165)"><br>
</span><strong><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(150,215,0)">M</span></strong><strong><span style=3D"font-size:7=
.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:white">T</span></strong><a href=
=3D"tel:+1%20416%20414%207117" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:8=
pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">+1
 416 414 7117</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(165,165,165)=
"><br>
</span><strong><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(150,215,0)">E</span></strong><strong><span style=3D"font-size:7=
.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:white">M</span></strong><a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae" title=3D"Click to send email to=
 Alexander Sherkin" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-fam=
ily:Verdana,sans-serif;color:black">Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae</span><=
/a><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(165,165,165)"><br>
<br>
</span><a href=3D"http://darkmatter.ae" target=3D"_blank"><b><span style=3D=
"font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:rgb(150,215,0)">darkmat=
ter.ae</span></b></a><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(165,165,165)"><=
br>
<br>
</span><a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/company/dark-matter-llc" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;text-decoration:none"><img border=
=3D"0" width=3D"32" height=3D"32" id=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356Picture_=
x0020_2" src=3D"cid:16a33abb59b5b16b22" alt=3D"Linkedin"></span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(165,165,165)">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https=
://twitter.com/GuardedbyGenius" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:=
8pt;text-decoration:none"><img border=3D"0" width=3D"32" height=3D"32" id=
=3D"gmail-m_5672706016823396356Picture_x0020_3" src=3D"cid:16a33abb59b692e3=
33" alt=3D"Twitter"></span></a><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;color:rgb(165,1=
65,165)">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:8pt;color:rgb(165,165,165)"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;color:=
rgb(165,165,165)">The information in this email is intended only for the pe=
rson(s) or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential or p=
rivileged information. If you receive this
 email by error, please notify us immediately, delete the original message =
and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use or store or copy =
the information in any medium and for whatever purpose. Any unauthorized us=
e is strictly prohibited.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 15:18:03 -0400
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Subject: [MLS] Tree hashes - ready to land?
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--0000000000006ebab70586e6fb04
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Hey all,

I've been working on implementing the tree-hashing scheme we discussed in
Prague.  I just  updated the PR with what I think is a pretty
ready-to-merge change set:

https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/134

Please send comments there in the next few days.  Otherwise, we authors
will make a decision on our own :)

Thanks,
--Richard

--0000000000006ebab70586e6fb04
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div><div>I&=
#39;ve been working on implementing the tree-hashing scheme we discussed in=
 Prague.=C2=A0 I just=C2=A0 updated the PR with what I think is a pretty re=
ady-to-merge change set:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github=
.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/134">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pul=
l/134</a></div><div><br></div><div>Please send comments there in the next f=
ew days.=C2=A0 Otherwise, we authors will make a decision on our own :)</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--Richard<br></div></div></div>

--0000000000006ebab70586e6fb04--


From nobody Fri Apr 19 15:17:38 2019
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A new interim meeting request has just been submitted by Nick Sullivan.

This request requires approval by the Area Director of the Security Area

The meeting can be approved here: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim/request/interim-2019-mls-02



---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Messaging Layer Security
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Nick Sullivan

City: Berlin
Country: DE


Session 1:

Date: 2019-05-16
Start Time: 09:00 Europe/Berlin
Duration: 08:00
Remote Participation Information: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md546be15e628910271eed585d1ad8567
Agenda Note: 

---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Mon Apr 22 08:07:37 2019
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The Messaging Layer Security (mls) Working Group will hold
an interim meeting on 2019-05-16 from 09:00 to 17:00 Europe/Berlin.

Meeting Location:
Berlin, DE

Agenda:
https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-2019-05/agenda.md

Information about remote participation:
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md546be15e628910271eed585d1ad8567


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From: Paul Grubbs <pag225@cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:07:54 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKDPBw-+T9VcgvktxGcZckjSaZHyywdbsUe7J8kHNDq_MbiBGQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Cc: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>, mls@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007204ba058720ac85"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/rt6GU-Rut6ncBlmP8V0PJK5Nsis>
Subject: Re: [MLS] Messaging Layer Security (mls) WG Interim Meeting: 2019-05-16
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Just a heads-up: the file
https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-2019-05/agenda.md
does
not exist.

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:07 AM IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
wrote:

> The Messaging Layer Security (mls) Working Group will hold
> an interim meeting on 2019-05-16 from 09:00 to 17:00 Europe/Berlin.
>
> Meeting Location:
> Berlin, DE
>
> Agenda:
> https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-2019-05/agenda.md
>
> Information about remote participation:
> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=md546be15e628910271eed585d1ad8567
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

--0000000000007204ba058720ac85
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Just a heads-up: the file=C2=A0<a href=3D=
"https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-2019-05/agenda.m=
d" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materia=
ls/blob/master/interim-2019-05/agenda.md</a>=C2=A0does not exist.</div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On M=
on, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:07 AM IESG Secretary &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg-secr=
etary@ietf.org">iesg-secretary@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The Messaging Layer Security (mls) W=
orking Group will hold<br>
an interim meeting on 2019-05-16 from 09:00 to 17:00 Europe/Berlin.<br>
<br>
Meeting Location:<br>
Berlin, DE<br>
<br>
Agenda:<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-2019-0=
5/agenda.md" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/mlswg/=
wg-materials/blob/master/interim-2019-05/agenda.md</a><br>
<br>
Information about remote participation:<br>
<a href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmd546be15e628910271eed5=
85d1ad8567" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://ietf.webex.com/iet=
f/j.php?MTID=3Dmd546be15e628910271eed585d1ad8567</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000007204ba058720ac85--


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From: Alexander Sherkin <Alexander.Sherkin@darkmatter.ae>
To: Emad Omara <emadomara@google.com>
CC: "mls@ietf.org" <mls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [MLS] Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
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Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:04:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Blocking Update messages for breaking post-compromise security
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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 18:11:00 -0400
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Subject: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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Hey all,

As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common
framing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to
the DS than it needs to.

Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch changes.
This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two messages
and see which was before the other, without the need for any ongoing
tracking.

However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the group,
so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be intelligible
to members.  For example [1]:

epoch_[n] = HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1],
"epoch", 4)

That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many messages
were sent within each epoch.  But it wouldn't be able to understand the
sequence unless it tracked things all along.

A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have forks in its
history more cleanly, since different forks will have different epoch
numbers.  That could allow some softness in the ordering requirement, as
long as the group can eventually figure out which branch is the right one
[2].

Does this seem worthwhile to people?  The cost is a few extra hashes.  To
me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but the
clean forking seems pretty convincing.  If folks think this worthwhile, I'm
happy to write up a PR.

Thanks,
--Richard


[1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems
wasteful.
[2]
http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf

--000000000000873420058725bf63
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div><div>As=
 I&#39;ve been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common fra=
ming PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to the=
 DS than it needs to.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now, the ep=
och just increments by one every time the epoch changes.=C2=A0 This lets th=
e DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two messages and see which=
 was before the other, without the need for any ongoing tracking.</div><div=
><br></div><div>However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members=
 of the group, so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only b=
e intelligible to members.=C2=A0 For example [1]:</div><div><br></div><div>=
epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1], &qu=
ot;epoch&quot;, 4)</div><div><br></div><div>That way, the DS could observe =
epoch changes, and observe how many messages were sent within each epoch.=
=C2=A0 But it wouldn&#39;t be able to understand the sequence unless it tra=
cked things all along.</div><div><br></div><div>A side benefit of this is t=
hat it allows the group to have forks in its history more cleanly, since di=
fferent forks will have different epoch numbers.=C2=A0 That could allow som=
e softness in the ordering requirement, as long as the group can eventually=
 figure out which branch is the right one [2].</div><div><br></div><div>Doe=
s this seem worthwhile to people?=C2=A0 The cost is a few extra hashes.=C2=
=A0 To me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but =
the clean forking seems pretty convincing.=C2=A0 If folks think this worthw=
hile, I&#39;m happy to write up a PR.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,<=
/div><div>--Richard<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[1] I would=
 probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems wasteful.</div><di=
v>[2] <a href=3D"http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-=
of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf">http://mycours.es/gamedesign20=
12/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf</a>=
<br></div></div></div>

--000000000000873420058725bf63--


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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, the only two th=
ings potentially remaining in the clear will be the group identifier and the=
 epoch number (because we need those to pick the group key necessary to decr=
ypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a similar approach=
 but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That could help a bi=
t on the meta data protection side by making it harder for an adversarial DS=
 to be able to correlate messages in delivery queues across groups and acros=
s epochs. The fact that this might be useful or not depends a lot on archite=
cture assumptions though....

B.

> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
> Hey all,
>=20
> As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common fram=
ing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to the D=
S than it needs to. =20
>=20
> Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch changes. =
 This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two messages a=
nd see which was before the other, without the need for any ongoing tracking=
.
>=20
> However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the group, s=
o we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be intelligible to=
 members.  For example [1]:
>=20
> epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1], "e=
poch", 4)
>=20
> That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many message=
s were sent within each epoch.  But it wouldn't be able to understand the se=
quence unless it tracked things all along.
>=20
> A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have forks in its hi=
story more cleanly, since different forks will have different epoch numbers.=
  That could allow some softness in the ordering requirement, as long as the=
 group can eventually figure out which branch is the right one [2].
>=20
> Does this seem worthwhile to people?  The cost is a few extra hashes.  To m=
e, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but the clean=
 forking seems pretty convincing.  If folks think this worthwhile, I'm happy=
 to write up a PR.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --Richard
>=20
>=20
> [1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems wastef=
ul.
> [2] http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-P=
aths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls

--Apple-Mail-223F77F6-BB08-45CE-886C-6300CBBF8F15
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span></span></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Side note before I forget. Af=
ter merging the common framing, the only two things potentially remaining in=
 the clear will be the group identifier and the epoch number (because we nee=
d those to pick the group key necessary to decrypt the sender info). Raphael=
 and I talked about adopting a similar approach but generating an ephemeral G=
roup Id at the same time. That could help a bit on the meta data protection s=
ide by making it harder for an adversarial DS to be able to correlate messag=
es in delivery queues across groups and across epochs. The fact that this mi=
ght be useful or not depends a lot on architecture assumptions though....</d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">B.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.s=
x">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div=
><div>As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common f=
raming PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to th=
e DS than it needs to.&nbsp; <br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now, the ep=
och just increments by one every time the epoch changes.&nbsp; This lets the=
 DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two messages and see which w=
as before the other, without the need for any ongoing tracking.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of t=
he group, so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be inte=
lligible to members.&nbsp; For example [1]:</div><div><br></div><div>epoch_[=
n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1], "epoch", 4)=
</div><div><br></div><div>That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and o=
bserve how many messages were sent within each epoch.&nbsp; But it wouldn't b=
e able to understand the sequence unless it tracked things all along.</div><=
div><br></div><div>A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to hav=
e forks in its history more cleanly, since different forks will have differe=
nt epoch numbers.&nbsp; That could allow some softness in the ordering requi=
rement, as long as the group can eventually figure out which branch is the r=
ight one [2].</div><div><br></div><div>Does this seem worthwhile to people?&=
nbsp; The cost is a few extra hashes.&nbsp; To me, the completeness/consiste=
ncy seems like a marginal benefit, but the clean forking seems pretty convin=
cing.&nbsp; If folks think this worthwhile, I'm happy to write up a PR.<br><=
/div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--Richard<br></div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>[1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because an=
y more seems wasteful.</div><div>[2] <a href=3D"http://mycours.es/gamedesign=
2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf">h=
ttp://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jo=
rge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf</a><br></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>________=
_______________________________________</span><br><span>MLS mailing list</sp=
an><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org">MLS@ietf.org</a></span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/mls</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-223F77F6-BB08-45CE-886C-6300CBBF8F15--


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 18:49:46 -0400
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To: Benjamin Beurdouche <benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr>
Cc: Messaging Layer Security WG <mls@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/KYoKdSzPX4AVGAdWeV305nuczTU>
Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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True, you could have one unpredictable identifier that identifies both the
group ID and the epoch.  I like how that looks on the wire, but would
require a bit more bookkeeping in clients.  I might be inclined to go ahead
and land an unpredictable-epoch PR in -05 (since that's a pretty small
change), then look at folding in the group ID later.
--RLB


On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche <
benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:

> Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, the only two
> things potentially remaining in the clear will be the group identifier and
> the epoch number (because we need those to pick the group key necessary to
> decrypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a similar
> approach but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That could
> help a bit on the meta data protection side by making it harder for an
> adversarial DS to be able to correlate messages in delivery queues across
> groups and across epochs. The fact that this might be useful or not depends
> a lot on architecture assumptions though....
>
> B.
>
> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common
> framing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to
> the DS than it needs to.
>
> Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch changes.
> This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two messages
> and see which was before the other, without the need for any ongoing
> tracking.
>
> However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the group,
> so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be intelligible
> to members.  For example [1]:
>
> epoch_[n] = HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1],
> "epoch", 4)
>
> That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many
> messages were sent within each epoch.  But it wouldn't be able to
> understand the sequence unless it tracked things all along.
>
> A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have forks in its
> history more cleanly, since different forks will have different epoch
> numbers.  That could allow some softness in the ordering requirement, as
> long as the group can eventually figure out which branch is the right one
> [2].
>
> Does this seem worthwhile to people?  The cost is a few extra hashes.  To
> me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but the
> clean forking seems pretty convincing.  If folks think this worthwhile, I'm
> happy to write up a PR.
>
> Thanks,
> --Richard
>
>
> [1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems
> wasteful.
> [2]
> http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>

--00000000000023f5290587264a37
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>True, you could have one unpredictable identifier tha=
t identifies both the group ID and the epoch.=C2=A0 I like how that looks o=
n the wire, but would require a bit more bookkeeping in clients.=C2=A0 I mi=
ght be inclined to go ahead and land an unpredictable-epoch PR in -05 (sinc=
e that&#39;s a pretty small change), then look at folding in the group ID l=
ater.</div><div>--RLB<br></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin=
 Beurdouche &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr">benjamin.be=
urdouche@inria.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span></span></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Side note before I for=
get. After merging the common framing, the only two things potentially rema=
ining in the clear will be the group identifier and the epoch number (becau=
se we need those to pick the group key necessary to decrypt the sender info=
). Raphael and I talked about adopting a similar approach but generating an=
 ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That could help a bit on the meta dat=
a protection side by making it harder for an adversarial DS to be able to c=
orrelate messages in delivery queues across groups and across epochs. The f=
act that this might be useful or not depends a lot on architecture assumpti=
ons though....</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">B.</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" target=3D"_blank">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div><div>As I&#39;ve been working wi=
th Benjamin on updating and landing the common framing PR, I noticed that t=
he epoch is still exposing more information to the DS than it needs to.=C2=
=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now, the epoch just increments by o=
ne every time the epoch changes.=C2=A0 This lets the DS track epochs statel=
essly -- it can take any two messages and see which was before the other, w=
ithout the need for any ongoing tracking.</div><div><br></div><div>However,=
 the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the group, so we cou=
ld generate epoch values in a way that would only be intelligible to member=
s.=C2=A0 For example [1]:</div><div><br></div><div>epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expan=
d-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1], &quot;epoch&quot;, 4)</div>=
<div><br></div><div>That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and obser=
ve how many messages were sent within each epoch.=C2=A0 But it wouldn&#39;t=
 be able to understand the sequence unless it tracked things all along.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to=
 have forks in its history more cleanly, since different forks will have di=
fferent epoch numbers.=C2=A0 That could allow some softness in the ordering=
 requirement, as long as the group can eventually figure out which branch i=
s the right one [2].</div><div><br></div><div>Does this seem worthwhile to =
people?=C2=A0 The cost is a few extra hashes.=C2=A0 To me, the completeness=
/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but the clean forking seems pre=
tty convincing.=C2=A0 If folks think this worthwhile, I&#39;m happy to writ=
e up a PR.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--Richard<br></di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 =
bytes, because any more seems wasteful.</div><div>[2] <a href=3D"http://myc=
ours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis=
-Borges-1941.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/=
2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf</a><br></div=
></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>_______=
________________________________________</span><br><span>MLS mailing list</=
span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.o=
rg</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a></span><br=
></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>

--00000000000023f5290587264a37--


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To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mls/svsHXQdvMlAv43v1_WoPt2F19i4>
Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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+1

> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:49 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
> True, you could have one unpredictable identifier that identifies both the=
 group ID and the epoch.  I like how that looks on the wire, but would requi=
re a bit more bookkeeping in clients.  I might be inclined to go ahead and l=
and an unpredictable-epoch PR in -05 (since that's a pretty small change), t=
hen look at folding in the group ID later.
> --RLB
>=20
>=20
>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche <benjamin.beurdouche@=
inria.fr> wrote:
>> Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, the only two=
 things potentially remaining in the clear will be the group identifier and t=
he epoch number (because we need those to pick the group key necessary to de=
crypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a similar approa=
ch but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That could help a b=
it on the meta data protection side by making it harder for an adversarial D=
S to be able to correlate messages in delivery queues across groups and acro=
ss epochs. The fact that this might be useful or not depends a lot on archit=
ecture assumptions though....
>>=20
>> B.
>>=20
>>> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hey all,
>>>=20
>>> As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common fr=
aming PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to the=
 DS than it needs to. =20
>>>=20
>>> Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch changes=
.  This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two messages=
 and see which was before the other, without the need for any ongoing tracki=
ng.
>>>=20
>>> However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the group=
, so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be intelligible=
 to members.  For example [1]:
>>>=20
>>> epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1], "=
epoch", 4)
>>>=20
>>> That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many messa=
ges were sent within each epoch.  But it wouldn't be able to understand the s=
equence unless it tracked things all along.
>>>=20
>>> A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have forks in its h=
istory more cleanly, since different forks will have different epoch numbers=
.  That could allow some softness in the ordering requirement, as long as th=
e group can eventually figure out which branch is the right one [2].
>>>=20
>>> Does this seem worthwhile to people?  The cost is a few extra hashes.  T=
o me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but the cl=
ean forking seems pretty convincing.  If folks think this worthwhile, I'm ha=
ppy to write up a PR.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> --Richard
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> [1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems wast=
eful.
>>> [2] http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking=
-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLS mailing list
>>> MLS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls

--Apple-Mail-C9FCEB9D-F9A6-4616-BD56-0B4E5911C189
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">+1<=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:49 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>True, you could hav=
e one unpredictable identifier that identifies both the group ID and the epo=
ch.&nbsp; I like how that looks on the wire, but would require a bit more bo=
okkeeping in clients.&nbsp; I might be inclined to go ahead and land an unpr=
edictable-epoch PR in -05 (since that's a pretty small change), then look at=
 folding in the group ID later.</div><div>--RLB<br></div><br></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2=
019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benjamin.beurdouche=
@inria.fr">benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span=
></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Side n=
ote before I forget. After merging the common framing, the only two things p=
otentially remaining in the clear will be the group identifier and the epoch=
 number (because we need those to pick the group key necessary to decrypt th=
e sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a similar approach but g=
enerating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That could help a bit on t=
he meta data protection side by making it harder for an adversarial DS to be=
 able to correlate messages in delivery queues across groups and across epoc=
hs. The fact that this might be useful or not depends a lot on architecture a=
ssumptions though....</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">B.</d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" target=3D"_blank">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br=
></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div><div>As I've been working with Benja=
min on updating and landing the common framing PR, I noticed that the epoch i=
s still exposing more information to the DS than it needs to.&nbsp; <br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time=
 the epoch changes.&nbsp; This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it ca=
n take any two messages and see which was before the other, without the need=
 for any ongoing tracking.</div><div><br></div><div>However, the epoch only n=
eeds to be intelligible to members of the group, so we could generate epoch v=
alues in a way that would only be intelligible to members.&nbsp; For example=
 [1]:</div><div><br></div><div>epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_f=
or_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1], "epoch", 4)</div><div><br></div><div>That way, th=
e DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many messages were sent wi=
thin each epoch.&nbsp; But it wouldn't be able to understand the sequence un=
less it tracked things all along.</div><div><br></div><div>A side benefit of=
 this is that it allows the group to have forks in its history more cleanly,=
 since different forks will have different epoch numbers.&nbsp; That could a=
llow some softness in the ordering requirement, as long as the group can eve=
ntually figure out which branch is the right one [2].</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Does this seem worthwhile to people?&nbsp; The cost is a few extra hashes=
.&nbsp; To me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, b=
ut the clean forking seems pretty convincing.&nbsp; If folks think this wort=
hwhile, I'm happy to write up a PR.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</di=
v><div>--Richard<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[1] I would pro=
bably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems wasteful.</div><div>[2]=
 <a href=3D"http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-For=
king-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://mycours.es/g=
amedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-19=
41.pdf</a><br></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>________=
_______________________________________</span><br><span>MLS mailing list</sp=
an><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org<=
/a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a></span><br></di=
v></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-C9FCEB9D-F9A6-4616-BD56-0B4E5911C189--


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From: Igor Mandrigin <igor@status.im>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] May 2019 MLS Interim - Berlin, Germany
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Hi!

It's Igor, from Status (https://status.im).

I'd like to attend in person too.

/ Igor


On 2019-04-09 03:18, Nick Sullivan wrote:
> Hello mlswg,
>
> The chairs would like to propose the following date for the next MLS 
> interim:
> Thursday, May 16th, 2019
> Berlin, Germany
> Host: Wire
>
> This is the Thursday before the Saturday, May 18 Messaging workshop at 
> Eurocrypt in Darmstadt, so those people wishing to attend both have 
> some time to travel.
>
> Please indicate if you would plan on attending an interim on this 
> date. If this date and location are not suitable and you planned to 
> come, please indicate your expected level of participation in the 
> interim in your response. There will be a remote participation option.
>
> Sean and Nick


From nobody Tue Apr 23 08:03:47 2019
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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:03:20 -0400
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To: Benjamin Beurdouche <benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr>
Cc: Messaging Layer Security WG <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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--000000000000f57086058733e332
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Here's a PR:

https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/152/files

On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:52 PM Benjamin Beurdouche <
benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:

> +1
>
> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:49 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>
> True, you could have one unpredictable identifier that identifies both the
> group ID and the epoch.  I like how that looks on the wire, but would
> require a bit more bookkeeping in clients.  I might be inclined to go ahead
> and land an unpredictable-epoch PR in -05 (since that's a pretty small
> change), then look at folding in the group ID later.
> --RLB
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche <
> benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:
>
>> Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, the only two
>> things potentially remaining in the clear will be the group identifier and
>> the epoch number (because we need those to pick the group key necessary to
>> decrypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a similar
>> approach but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That could
>> help a bit on the meta data protection side by making it harder for an
>> adversarial DS to be able to correlate messages in delivery queues across
>> groups and across epochs. The fact that this might be useful or not depends
>> a lot on architecture assumptions though....
>>
>> B.
>>
>> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common
>> framing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to
>> the DS than it needs to.
>>
>> Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch
>> changes.  This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two
>> messages and see which was before the other, without the need for any
>> ongoing tracking.
>>
>> However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the group,
>> so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be intelligible
>> to members.  For example [1]:
>>
>> epoch_[n] = HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1],
>> "epoch", 4)
>>
>> That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many
>> messages were sent within each epoch.  But it wouldn't be able to
>> understand the sequence unless it tracked things all along.
>>
>> A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have forks in its
>> history more cleanly, since different forks will have different epoch
>> numbers.  That could allow some softness in the ordering requirement, as
>> long as the group can eventually figure out which branch is the right one
>> [2].
>>
>> Does this seem worthwhile to people?  The cost is a few extra hashes.  To
>> me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but the
>> clean forking seems pretty convincing.  If folks think this worthwhile, I'm
>> happy to write up a PR.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Richard
>>
>>
>> [1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems
>> wasteful.
>> [2]
>> http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Here&#39;s a PR:</div><div><br></div=
><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/152/files">http=
s://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/152/files</a><br></div></div></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon,=
 Apr 22, 2019 at 6:52 PM Benjamin Beurdouche &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benjamin=
.beurdouche@inria.fr">benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">+1</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Apr 23, 20=
19, at 12:49 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" target=3D=
"_blank">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>True, you could have one unpredictabl=
e identifier that identifies both the group ID and the epoch.=C2=A0 I like =
how that looks on the wire, but would require a bit more bookkeeping in cli=
ents.=C2=A0 I might be inclined to go ahead and land an unpredictable-epoch=
 PR in -05 (since that&#39;s a pretty small change), then look at folding i=
n the group ID later.</div><div>--RLB<br></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at =
6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benjamin.beurdouche@inria=
.fr" target=3D"_blank">benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><span></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, th=
e only two things potentially remaining in the clear will be the group iden=
tifier and the epoch number (because we need those to pick the group key ne=
cessary to decrypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a =
similar approach but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. Tha=
t could help a bit on the meta data protection side by making it harder for=
 an adversarial DS to be able to correlate messages in delivery queues acro=
ss groups and across epochs. The fact that this might be useful or not depe=
nds a lot on architecture assumptions though....</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr">B.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:=
11 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" target=3D"_blank">r=
lb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hey all,</div><div><br></div><=
div>As I&#39;ve been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the comm=
on framing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information =
to the DS than it needs to.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>Right now, =
the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch changes.=C2=A0 This l=
ets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two messages and see=
 which was before the other, without the need for any ongoing tracking.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to m=
embers of the group, so we could generate epoch values in a way that would =
only be intelligible to members.=C2=A0 For example [1]:</div><div><br></div=
><div>epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1=
], &quot;epoch&quot;, 4)</div><div><br></div><div>That way, the DS could ob=
serve epoch changes, and observe how many messages were sent within each ep=
och.=C2=A0 But it wouldn&#39;t be able to understand the sequence unless it=
 tracked things all along.</div><div><br></div><div>A side benefit of this =
is that it allows the group to have forks in its history more cleanly, sinc=
e different forks will have different epoch numbers.=C2=A0 That could allow=
 some softness in the ordering requirement, as long as the group can eventu=
ally figure out which branch is the right one [2].</div><div><br></div><div=
>Does this seem worthwhile to people?=C2=A0 The cost is a few extra hashes.=
=C2=A0 To me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, b=
ut the clean forking seems pretty convincing.=C2=A0 If folks think this wor=
thwhile, I&#39;m happy to write up a PR.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thank=
s,</div><div>--Richard<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[1] I wo=
uld probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems wasteful.</div>=
<div>[2] <a href=3D"http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Gard=
en-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://my=
cours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Lui=
s-Borges-1941.pdf</a><br></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>_______=
________________________________________</span><br><span>MLS mailing list</=
span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.o=
rg</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a></span><br=
></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

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From: Nick Sullivan <nick@cloudflare.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:17:23 -0700
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Call for adoption: draft-omara-mls-federation
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Since there was no dissent, a consensus is declared and the document is
adopted.

The chairs invite the authors to submit draft-ietf-mls-federation-00 and to
move the working draft to Github: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation

Nick and Sean

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 1:17 AM Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:

> I appreciate you didn't ask for affirmation, but nevertheless - the
> structures and architecture described by this draft look useful to me, and
> would benefit from being worked on within this group, so I also support
> adoption of the draft.
>
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 01:32, Nick Sullivan <nick=
> 40cloudflare..com@dmarc.ietf.org <40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>
>> At TLS@IETF104, there was consensus in the room to adopt
>> draft-omara-mls-federation
>> <https://datatracker.ietf..org/doc/draft-omara-mls-federation/>. This
>> message is to confirm that consensus. If you do not support adoption of
>> draft-omara-mls-federation as WG item please say so by 2359UTC on 19 April
>> 2019 (and say why).
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nick and Sean
>> _______________________________________________
>> MLS mailing list
>> MLS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Since there was no dissent, a consensus is declared a=
nd the document is adopted.</div><div><br></div><div>The chairs invite the =
authors to submit draft-ietf-mls-federation-00 and to move the working draf=
t to Github:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation</a><br></div><div><br>=
</div>Nick and Sean</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 1:17 AM Dave Cridland &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:dave@cridland.net" target=3D"_blank">dave@cridland.net</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">I appreciate you didn&#39;t ask for affirmation, but nevertheless =
- the structures and architecture described by this draft look useful to me=
, and would benefit from being worked on within this group, so I also suppo=
rt adoption of the draft.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 01:32, Nick Sullivan &lt;nic=
k=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40=
cloudflare..com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>At TLS=
@IETF104, there was consensus in the room to adopt <a href=3D"https://datat=
racker.ietf..org/doc/draft-omara-mls-federation/" target=3D"_blank">draft-o=
mara-mls-federation</a>. This message is to confirm that consensus. If you =
do not support adoption of draft-omara-mls-federation as WG item please say=
 so by 2359UTC on 19 April 2019 (and say why).</div><div><br></div><div>Tha=
nks,</div><div>Nick and Sean</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:38:05 -0700
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Subject: [MLS] May 2019 Interim Registration and Issue discussion
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The date and location are set for the May 2019 Interim meeting. It will be
on May 16 at the Wire headquarters in Berlin. More details can be found on
Github: https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-05.

Please register with the following form if you intend on attending either
remotely or in person.

Registration Link <https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8> (
https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8)

Registration deadline closes on May 2nd.

We are soliciting proposals for presentations to add to the agenda for the
meeting. Please send proposals to mls-chairs@ietf.org. Due to time
limitations, these should be restricted to discussions about current active
drafts.

Here are the active documents:

*Protocol* (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-protocol-04)

Issues: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/issues

Milestones: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestones

*Architecture* (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-architecture-02)

Issues: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-architecture

*Federation* (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-federation-00)

Issues: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation/issues


As a reminder for the working group, the target milestone for the -05 draft
of the protocol document is May 1st, 2019. There are still a number of open
issues that should be discussed here:
https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/2. We encourage the authors
and other participants to read these issues, distill the main questions
raised by them and propose answers for discussion on the list in the coming
week.


Nick and Sean

--00000000000083b5b405875e48e0
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span id=3D"gmail-docs-internal-guid-717a=
4b68-7fff-3b38-a834-7f843d86614f"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;=
margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:n=
ormal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pr=
e-wrap">The date and location are set for the May 2019 Interim meeting. It =
will be on May 16 at the Wire headquarters in Berlin. More details can be f=
ound on Github: <a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/maste=
r/interim-2019-05" style=3D"font-size:14.6667px">https://github.com/mlswg/w=
g-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-05</a>.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" s=
tyle=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transpare=
nt;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-alig=
n:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Please register with the following form if=
 you intend on attending either remotely or in person.</span></p><p dir=3D"=
ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><a href=3D=
"https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent=
;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration=
-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Registration =
Link</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,=
0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-=
east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> (</span><a=
 href=3D"https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8" style=3D"text-decoration-line=
:none"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Roboto,sans-serif;backgr=
ound-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:=
normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:p=
re-wrap">https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8</span></a><span style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;f=
ont-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:ba=
seline;white-space:pre-wrap">)</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-h=
eight:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-varian=
t-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">Registration deadline closes on May 2nd.</span></p><br><=
p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-=
color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:norma=
l;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">We are soliciting proposals=
 for presentations to add to the agenda for the meeting. Please send propos=
als to <a href=3D"mailto:mls-chairs@ietf.org">mls-chairs@ietf.org</a>. Due =
to time limitations, these should be restricted to discussions about curren=
t active drafts.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;mar=
gin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ar=
ial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:norm=
al;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-w=
rap">Here are the active documents:</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-=
height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-varia=
nt-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap"><u>Protocol</u> (</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-ietf-mls-protocol-04" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;f=
ont-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-l=
ine:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-protocol-04</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-v=
ariant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baselin=
e;white-space:pre-wrap">)</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.3=
8;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric=
:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:=
pre-wrap">Issues: </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/i=
ssues" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;fo=
nt-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:=
baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/issues=
</span></a></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;marg=
in-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,=
0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-=
east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Milestones:=
 </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestones" style=
=3D"text-decoration-line:none"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Ar=
ial;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-e=
ast-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestones</span><=
/a></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-b=
ottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east=
-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><u>Architecture=
</u> (</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-architec=
ture-02" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;=
font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-alig=
n:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls=
-architecture-02</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;=
color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;f=
ont-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"=
>)</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin=
-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-col=
or:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;v=
ertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Issues:</span><span style=3D"t=
ext-decoration-line:underline;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-c=
olor:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal=
;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> <a href=3D"https://github.c=
om/mlswg/mls-architecture" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none">https://gith=
ub.com/mlswg/mls-architecture</a></span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"lin=
e-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-var=
iant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;=
white-space:pre-wrap"><u>Federation</u> (</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-federation-00" style=3D"text-decoration-line:no=
ne"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transp=
arent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decor=
ation-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-federation-00</span></a><span style=3D"=
font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transpar=
ent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-ali=
gn:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">)</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-=
height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt=
;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-varia=
nt-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">Issues: </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-=
federation/issues" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numer=
ic:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;ver=
tical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-fed=
eration/issues</span></a></p><br><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.=
38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeri=
c:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space=
:pre-wrap">As a reminder for the working group, the target milestone for th=
e -05 draft of the protocol document is May 1st, 2019. There are still a nu=
mber of open issues that should be discussed here: </span><a href=3D"https:=
//github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/2" style=3D"text-decoration-line:=
none"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:tran=
sparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-dec=
oration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https:=
//github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/2</span></a><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;fo=
nt-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:bas=
eline;white-space:pre-wrap">. We encourage the authors and other participan=
ts to read these issues, distill the main questions raised by them and prop=
ose answers for discussion on the list in the coming week.</span></p><br><b=
r><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);backgrou=
nd-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:no=
rmal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Nick and Sean</span></p>=
</span><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div></div>

--00000000000083b5b405875e48e0--


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 13:50:04 -0400
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Couple of notes on plans for the protocol document:

As Nick notes, we are hoping to publish draft-05 of the protocol document
before the interim.  I have marked a handful of PRs for inclusion in that
release:

https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/2

If folks could review those PRs ASAP, that would be helpful, as we will be
working to get a few major things merged next week.  Thanks to Jo=C3=ABl Al=
wen
and Michael Rosenberg for reviews so far.

In general, my thinking is that draft-05 will be a "feature release" and
draft-06 will be a "performance relase", in the following sense: In
draft-05, we're getting in a lot of the big changes to the security model
(tree hashing, common signing/encryption).  We'll try to keep these things
stable for a bit, to let some analysis get done.  While that's going on, we
can focus on issues that relate more to performance / scalability /
maintainability, such as server assist, server-initiated add/remove, or KDF
trees for application secrets.  I've already put a few issues / PRs into
the draft-06 milestone:

https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/3

--Richard

On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:38 PM Nick Sullivan <nick=3D
40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> The date and location are set for the May 2019 Interim meeting. It will b=
e
> on May 16 at the Wire headquarters in Berlin. More details can be found o=
n
> Github: https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-05=
.
>
> Please register with the following form if you intend on attending either
> remotely or in person.
>
> Registration Link <https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8> (
> https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8)
>
> Registration deadline closes on May 2nd.
>
> We are soliciting proposals for presentations to add to the agenda for th=
e
> meeting. Please send proposals to mls-chairs@ietf.org. Due to time
> limitations, these should be restricted to discussions about current acti=
ve
> drafts.
>
> Here are the active documents:
>
> *Protocol* (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-protocol-04)
>
> Issues: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/issues
>
> Milestones: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestones
>
> *Architecture* (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-architecture-0=
2
> )
>
> Issues: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-architecture
>
> *Federation* (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-federation-00)
>
> Issues: https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation/issues
>
>
> As a reminder for the working group, the target milestone for the -05
> draft of the protocol document is May 1st, 2019. There are still a number
> of open issues that should be discussed here:
> https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/2. We encourage the
> authors and other participants to read these issues, distill the main
> questions raised by them and propose answers for discussion on the list i=
n
> the coming week.
>
>
> Nick and Sean
>
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Couple of notes on =
plans for the protocol document:<br></div><div><br></div><div>As Nick notes=
, we are hoping to publish draft-05 of the protocol document before the int=
erim.=C2=A0 I have marked a handful of PRs for inclusion in that release:</=
div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/mi=
lestone/2">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/2</a></div><div>=
<br></div><div>If folks could review those PRs ASAP, that would be helpful,=
 as we will be working to get a few major things merged next week.=C2=A0 Th=
anks to Jo=C3=ABl Alwen and Michael Rosenberg for reviews so far.</div><div=
><br></div><div>In general, my thinking is that draft-05 will be a &quot;fe=
ature release&quot; and draft-06 will be a &quot;performance relase&quot;, =
in the following sense: In draft-05, we&#39;re getting in a lot of the big =
changes to the security model (tree hashing, common signing/encryption).=C2=
=A0 We&#39;ll try to keep these things stable for a bit, to let some analys=
is get done.=C2=A0 While that&#39;s going on, we can focus on issues that r=
elate more to performance / scalability / maintainability, such as server a=
ssist, server-initiated add/remove, or KDF trees for application secrets.=
=C2=A0 I&#39;ve already put a few issues / PRs into the draft-06 milestone:=
</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/=
milestone/3">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestone/3</a></div><di=
v><br></div><div>--Richard<br></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:3=
8 PM Nick Sullivan &lt;nick=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org">40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><spa=
n id=3D"gmail-m_-3358127139740958716gmail-docs-internal-guid-717a4b68-7fff-=
3b38-a834-7f843d86614f"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top=
:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;col=
or:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font=
-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Th=
e date and location are set for the May 2019 Interim meeting. It will be on=
 May 16 at the Wire headquarters in Berlin. More details can be found on Gi=
thub: <a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-=
2019-05" style=3D"font-size:14.6667px" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com=
/mlswg/wg-materials/tree/master/interim-2019-05</a>.</span></p><br><p dir=
=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color=
:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;ver=
tical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Please register with the followi=
ng form if you intend on attending either remotely or in person.</span></p>=
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<a href=3D"https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8" style=3D"text-decoration-li=
ne:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;=
background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-=
asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">Registration Link</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-=
numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white=
-space:pre-wrap"> (</span><a href=3D"https://forms.gle/8vK6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8" s=
tyle=3D"text-decoration-line:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Roboto,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-v=
ariant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:u=
nderline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://forms.gle/8v=
K6ZKSrFzgX6KTr8</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;fo=
nt-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">=
)</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;mar=
gin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0=
,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant=
-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Registrati=
on deadline closes on May 2nd.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-h=
eight:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-varian=
t-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">We are soliciting proposals for presentations to add to =
the agenda for the meeting. Please send proposals to <a href=3D"mailto:mls-=
chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mls-chairs@ietf.org</a>. Due to time lim=
itations, these should be restricted to discussions about current active dr=
afts.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt=
;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:r=
gb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-var=
iant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Here a=
re the active documents:</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38=
;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:=
normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:p=
re-wrap"><u>Protocol</u> (</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-ietf-mls-protocol-04" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transp=
arent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decor=
ation-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-protocol-04</span></a><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent=
;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:=
baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">)</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-hei=
ght:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-=
numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white=
-space:pre-wrap">Issues: </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-pro=
tocol/issues" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;font-=
variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:=
underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://github.com/=
mlswg/mls-protocol/issues</span></a></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height=
:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-num=
eric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">Milestones: </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-pr=
otocol/milestones" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;=
font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-=
line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://github=
.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/milestones</span></a></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;f=
ont-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:ba=
seline;white-space:pre-wrap"><u>Architecture</u> (</span><a href=3D"https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-architecture-02" style=3D"text-decorati=
on-line:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:A=
rial;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-=
east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mls-architecture=
-02</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0=
,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-e=
ast-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">)</span></p>=
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparen=
t;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align=
:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Issues:</span><span style=3D"text-decoratio=
n-line:underline;font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transpar=
ent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-ali=
gn:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> <a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-=
architecture" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/github.com/mlswg/mls-architecture</a></span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-=
size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;f=
ont-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:ba=
seline;white-space:pre-wrap"><u>Federation</u> (</span><a href=3D"https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-federation-00" style=3D"text-decoration-=
line:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Aria=
l;background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-eas=
t-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white=
-space:pre-wrap">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-omara-mls-federation-00<=
/span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);=
background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-=
asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">)</span></p><p d=
ir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-col=
or:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;v=
ertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Issues: </span><a href=3D"http=
s://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation/issues" style=3D"text-decoration-line:n=
one" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;back=
ground-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asia=
n:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space=
:pre-wrap">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation/issues</span></a></p><br=
><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:=
0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);backg=
round-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian=
:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">As a reminder for the=
 working group, the target milestone for the -05 draft of the protocol docu=
ment is May 1st, 2019. There are still a number of open issues that should =
be discussed here: </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/=
milestone/2" style=3D"text-decoration-line:none" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;font-v=
ariant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;text-decoration-line:u=
nderline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">https://github.com/m=
lswg/mls-protocol/milestone/2</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-num=
eric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">. We encourage the authors and other participants to read the=
se issues, distill the main questions raised by them and propose answers fo=
r discussion on the list in the coming week.</span></p><br><br><p dir=3D"lt=
r" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:tran=
sparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;vertical=
-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Nick and Sean</span></p></span><br cl=
ass=3D"gmail-m_-3358127139740958716gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><=
/div>
_______________________________________________<br>
MLS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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I like this idea, especially because it allows for partial ordering of =
GroupStates. One question: could the tree_hash be used instead of an =
epoch? The tree_hash...
  * ...is not "predictable" in that it would require the DS to maintain =
state in order to establish an ordering on GroupStates
  * ...necessarily changes after any GroupOperation is applied to a =
GroupState
  * ...is already built into the GroupState

So why not remove epoch entirely?

Also, side note: given that the tree hash necessarily changes upon each =
update of the transcript, why is transcript_hash necessary anymore?

-Michael

> On Apr 23, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
> Here's a PR:
>=20
> https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/152/files
>=20
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:52 PM Benjamin Beurdouche =
<benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:
> +1
>=20
> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:49 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
>> True, you could have one unpredictable identifier that identifies =
both the group ID and the epoch.  I like how that looks on the wire, but =
would require a bit more bookkeeping in clients.  I might be inclined to =
go ahead and land an unpredictable-epoch PR in -05 (since that's a =
pretty small change), then look at folding in the group ID later.
>> --RLB
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche =
<benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:
>> Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, the only =
two things potentially remaining in the clear will be the group =
identifier and the epoch number (because we need those to pick the group =
key necessary to decrypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about =
adopting a similar approach but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the =
same time. That could help a bit on the meta data protection side by =
making it harder for an adversarial DS to be able to correlate messages =
in delivery queues across groups and across epochs. The fact that this =
might be useful or not depends a lot on architecture assumptions =
though....
>>=20
>> B.
>>=20
>> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hey all,
>>>=20
>>> As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the =
common framing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more =
information to the DS than it needs to. =20
>>>=20
>>> Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch =
changes.  This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any =
two messages and see which was before the other, without the need for =
any ongoing tracking.
>>>=20
>>> However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the =
group, so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be =
intelligible to members.  For example [1]:
>>>=20
>>> epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], =
epoch_[n-1], "epoch", 4)
>>>=20
>>> That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many =
messages were sent within each epoch.  But it wouldn't be able to =
understand the sequence unless it tracked things all along.
>>>=20
>>> A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have forks in =
its history more cleanly, since different forks will have different =
epoch numbers.  That could allow some softness in the ordering =
requirement, as long as the group can eventually figure out which branch =
is the right one [2].
>>>=20
>>> Does this seem worthwhile to people?  The cost is a few extra =
hashes.  To me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal =
benefit, but the clean forking seems pretty convincing.  If folks think =
this worthwhile, I'm happy to write up a PR.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> --Richard
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> [1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems =
wasteful.
>>> [2] =
http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths=
-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MLS mailing list
>>> MLS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
> _______________________________________________
> MLS mailing list
> MLS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 08:28:50 -0400
Message-ID: <CAL02cgR98gpF1HqDn31-xxUC6w3Orec_P=2VZ_5jc3xx6uLWCQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Rosenberg <micro@fastmail.com>
Cc: Messaging Layer Security WG <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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Well, I don't think we can get rid of the epoch entirely.  For handshake
messages, you could maybe get by with the theory that if a message doesn't
apply to the single most recent state, then it's no good, so you don't need
to explicitly say which state it applies to.  But that seems painful,
especially if you want to tolerate a degree of partial order / forking
history.  For application messages, you definitely need it, otherwise you
have an issue with application messages being out of order with handshake
messages.

That said, it does seem like we could maybe steal the epoch from elsewhere
and save a few hash invocations.  The question is what value we could
re-use that wouldn't be leaking information.  The tree hash seems bad from
that perspective, because it is never transmitted in the clear otherwise.
Another option I had pondered was re-using the confirmation MAC value.  In
any case, as a first effort, it seemed simpler to derive a value for the
purpose.

W.r.t. the transcript hash - I have the same suspicion you do, but I am
waiting for someone with a security proof in hand to tell me it's OK to
remove :)


On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 2:22 AM Michael Rosenberg <micro@fastmail.com>
wrote:

> I like this idea, especially because it allows for partial ordering of
> GroupStates. One question: could the tree_hash be used instead of an epoch?
> The tree_hash...
>   * ...is not "predictable" in that it would require the DS to maintain
> state in order to establish an ordering on GroupStates
>   * ...necessarily changes after any GroupOperation is applied to a
> GroupState
>   * ...is already built into the GroupState
>
> So why not remove epoch entirely?
>
> Also, side note: given that the tree hash necessarily changes upon each
> update of the transcript, why is transcript_hash necessary anymore?
>
> -Michael
>
> > On Apr 23, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
> >
> > Here's a PR:
> >
> > https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/152/files
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:52 PM Benjamin Beurdouche <
> benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:
> > +1
> >
> > On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:49 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
> >
> >> True, you could have one unpredictable identifier that identifies both
> the group ID and the epoch.  I like how that looks on the wire, but would
> require a bit more bookkeeping in clients.  I might be inclined to go ahead
> and land an unpredictable-epoch PR in -05 (since that's a pretty small
> change), then look at folding in the group ID later.
> >> --RLB
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche <
> benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:
> >> Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, the only
> two things potentially remaining in the clear will be the group identifier
> and the epoch number (because we need those to pick the group key necessary
> to decrypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a similar
> approach but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That could
> help a bit on the meta data protection side by making it harder for an
> adversarial DS to be able to correlate messages in delivery queues across
> groups and across epochs. The fact that this might be useful or not depends
> a lot on architecture assumptions though....
> >>
> >> B.
> >>
> >> On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hey all,
> >>>
> >>> As I've been working with Benjamin on updating and landing the common
> framing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more information to
> the DS than it needs to.
> >>>
> >>> Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epoch
> changes.  This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take any two
> messages and see which was before the other, without the need for any
> ongoing tracking.
> >>>
> >>> However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of the
> group, so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be
> intelligible to members.  For example [1]:
> >>>
> >>> epoch_[n] = HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epoch_[n-1],
> "epoch", 4)
> >>>
> >>> That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how many
> messages were sent within each epoch.  But it wouldn't be able to
> understand the sequence unless it tracked things all along.
> >>>
> >>> A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have forks in
> its history more cleanly, since different forks will have different epoch
> numbers.  That could allow some softness in the ordering requirement, as
> long as the group can eventually figure out which branch is the right one
> [2].
> >>>
> >>> Does this seem worthwhile to people?  The cost is a few extra hashes.
> To me, the completeness/consistency seems like a marginal benefit, but the
> clean forking seems pretty convincing.  If folks think this worthwhile, I'm
> happy to write up a PR.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> --Richard
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more seems
> wasteful.
> >>> [2]
> http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> MLS mailing list
> >>> MLS@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
> > _______________________________________________
> > MLS mailing list
> > MLS@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
>
>

--000000000000414ed205876e15f7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Well, I don&#39;t think we can get rid of the epoch e=
ntirely.=C2=A0 For handshake messages, you could maybe get by with the theo=
ry that if a message doesn&#39;t apply to the single most recent state, the=
n it&#39;s no good, so you don&#39;t need to explicitly say which state it =
applies to.=C2=A0 But that seems painful, especially if you want to tolerat=
e a degree of partial order / forking history.=C2=A0 For application messag=
es, you definitely need it, otherwise you have an issue with application me=
ssages being out of order with handshake messages.</div><div><br></div><div=
>That said, it does seem like we could maybe steal the epoch from elsewhere=
 and save a few hash invocations.=C2=A0 The question is what value we could=
 re-use that wouldn&#39;t be leaking information.=C2=A0 The tree hash seems=
 bad from that perspective, because it is never transmitted in the clear ot=
herwise.=C2=A0 Another option I had pondered was re-using the confirmation =
MAC value.=C2=A0 In any case, as a first effort, it seemed simpler to deriv=
e a value for the purpose.<br></div><div><br></div><div>W.r.t. the transcri=
pt hash - I have the same suspicion you do, but I am waiting for someone wi=
th a security proof in hand to tell me it&#39;s OK to remove :)<br></div><d=
iv><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 2:22 AM Michael Rosenberg &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:micro@fastmail.com">micro@fastmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I like this idea, especial=
ly because it allows for partial ordering of GroupStates. One question: cou=
ld the tree_hash be used instead of an epoch? The tree_hash...<br>
=C2=A0 * ...is not &quot;predictable&quot; in that it would require the DS =
to maintain state in order to establish an ordering on GroupStates<br>
=C2=A0 * ...necessarily changes after any GroupOperation is applied to a Gr=
oupState<br>
=C2=A0 * ...is already built into the GroupState<br>
<br>
So why not remove epoch entirely?<br>
<br>
Also, side note: given that the tree hash necessarily changes upon each upd=
ate of the transcript, why is transcript_hash necessary anymore?<br>
<br>
-Michael<br>
<br>
&gt; On Apr 23, 2019, at 11:03 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;rlb@ipv.sx&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Here&#39;s a PR:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pull/152/files" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/mlswg/mls-protocol/pul=
l/152/files</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:52 PM Benjamin Beurdouche &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr" target=3D"_blank">benjamin.beurdouche@inr=
ia.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; +1<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:49 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;rlb@ipv.sx&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; True, you could have one unpredictable identifier that identifies =
both the group ID and the epoch.=C2=A0 I like how that looks on the wire, b=
ut would require a bit more bookkeeping in clients.=C2=A0 I might be inclin=
ed to go ahead and land an unpredictable-epoch PR in -05 (since that&#39;s =
a pretty small change), then look at folding in the group ID later.<br>
&gt;&gt; --RLB<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 6:42 PM Benjamin Beurdouche &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr" target=3D"_blank">benjamin.beurdouche=
@inria.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Side note before I forget. After merging the common framing, the o=
nly two things potentially remaining in the clear will be the group identif=
ier and the epoch number (because we need those to pick the group key neces=
sary to decrypt the sender info). Raphael and I talked about adopting a sim=
ilar approach but generating an ephemeral Group Id at the same time. That c=
ould help a bit on the meta data protection side by making it harder for an=
 adversarial DS to be able to correlate messages in delivery queues across =
groups and across epochs. The fact that this might be useful or not depends=
 a lot on architecture assumptions though....<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; B.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:11 AM, Richard Barnes &lt;rlb@ipv.sx&gt; wr=
ote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hey all,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; As I&#39;ve been working with Benjamin on updating and landing=
 the common framing PR, I noticed that the epoch is still exposing more inf=
ormation to the DS than it needs to.=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Right now, the epoch just increments by one every time the epo=
ch changes.=C2=A0 This lets the DS track epochs statelessly -- it can take =
any two messages and see which was before the other, without the need for a=
ny ongoing tracking.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; However, the epoch only needs to be intelligible to members of=
 the group, so we could generate epoch values in a way that would only be i=
ntelligible to members.=C2=A0 For example [1]:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; epoch_[n] =3D HKDF-Expand-Label(some_secret_for_epoch_[n], epo=
ch_[n-1], &quot;epoch&quot;, 4)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; That way, the DS could observe epoch changes, and observe how =
many messages were sent within each epoch.=C2=A0 But it wouldn&#39;t be abl=
e to understand the sequence unless it tracked things all along.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; A side benefit of this is that it allows the group to have for=
ks in its history more cleanly, since different forks will have different e=
poch numbers.=C2=A0 That could allow some softness in the ordering requirem=
ent, as long as the group can eventually figure out which branch is the rig=
ht one [2].<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Does this seem worthwhile to people?=C2=A0 The cost is a few e=
xtra hashes.=C2=A0 To me, the completeness/consistency seems like a margina=
l benefit, but the clean forking seems pretty convincing.=C2=A0 If folks th=
ink this worthwhile, I&#39;m happy to write up a PR.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; --Richard<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; [1] I would probably keep epochs at 4 bytes, because any more =
seems wasteful.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; [2] <a href=3D"http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/=
The-Garden-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mycours.es/gamedesign2012/files/2012/08/The-Garden=
-of-Forking-Paths-Jorge-Luis-Borges-1941.pdf</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; MLS mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><=
br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; MLS mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:MLS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">MLS@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000414ed205876e15f7--


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From: Benjamin Beurdouche <benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr>
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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 15:08:14 +0200
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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> On Apr 26, 2019, at 2:28 PM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
> Well, I don't think we can get rid of the epoch entirely.  For =
handshake messages, you could maybe get by with the theory that if a =
message doesn't apply to the single most recent state, then it's no =
good, so you don't need to explicitly say which state it applies to.  =
But that seems painful, especially if you want to tolerate a degree of =
partial order / forking history.  For application messages, you =
definitely need it, otherwise you have an issue with application =
messages being out of order with handshake messages.
>=20
> That said, it does seem like we could maybe steal the epoch from =
elsewhere and save a few hash invocations.  The question is what value =
we could re-use that wouldn't be leaking information.  The tree hash =
seems bad from that perspective, because it is never transmitted in the =
clear otherwise.  Another option I had pondered was re-using the =
confirmation MAC value.  In any case, as a first effort, it seemed =
simpler to derive a value for the purpose.
>=20
> W.r.t. the transcript hash - I have the same suspicion you do, but I =
am waiting for someone with a security proof in hand to tell me it's OK =
to remove :)

I will do a round of review next week but *from what I remember* about =
the proposal,
I don=E2=80=99t think you can do that. The transcript hash contains =
strictly more information than
the tree hash anyway, especially for authentication. I=E2=80=99ll check =
when reviewing but if the tree hash
doesn=E2=80=99t cover the signatures, for example, then you can=E2=80=99t =
replace one by the other.

B.=


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From: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:21:45 -0400
Message-ID: <CAL02cgQtF4_gAM1dd+3Vrsi+p-1-R3otRHbOTbiLELVxiuyLVg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Benjamin Beurdouche <benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr>
Cc: Michael Rosenberg <micro@fastmail.com>, ML Messaging Layer Security <mls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:08 AM Benjamin Beurdouche <
benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr> wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 26, 2019, at 2:28 PM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I don't think we can get rid of the epoch entirely.  For handshak=
e
> messages, you could maybe get by with the theory that if a message doesn'=
t
> apply to the single most recent state, then it's no good, so you don't ne=
ed
> to explicitly say which state it applies to.  But that seems painful,
> especially if you want to tolerate a degree of partial order / forking
> history.  For application messages, you definitely need it, otherwise you
> have an issue with application messages being out of order with handshake
> messages.
> >
> > That said, it does seem like we could maybe steal the epoch from
> elsewhere and save a few hash invocations.  The question is what value we
> could re-use that wouldn't be leaking information.  The tree hash seems b=
ad
> from that perspective, because it is never transmitted in the clear
> otherwise.  Another option I had pondered was re-using the confirmation M=
AC
> value.  In any case, as a first effort, it seemed simpler to derive a val=
ue
> for the purpose.
> >
> > W.r.t. the transcript hash - I have the same suspicion you do, but I am
> waiting for someone with a security proof in hand to tell me it's OK to
> remove :)
>
> I will do a round of review next week but *from what I remember* about th=
e
> proposal,
> I don=E2=80=99t think you can do that. The transcript hash contains stric=
tly more
> information than
> the tree hash anyway, especially for authentication. I=E2=80=99ll check w=
hen
> reviewing but if the tree hash
> doesn=E2=80=99t cover the signatures, for example, then you can=E2=80=99t=
 replace one by
> the other.
>

We might have a problem in any case, then, since the transcript hash
doesn't cover the signatures either.

--Richard


>
> B.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:08 AM Benja=
min Beurdouche &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:benjamin.beurdouche@inria.fr">benjamin=
.beurdouche@inria.fr</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; On Apr 26, 2019, at 2:28 PM, Richard Barnes &lt;rlb@ipv.sx&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Well, I don&#39;t think we can get rid of the epoch entirely.=C2=A0 Fo=
r handshake messages, you could maybe get by with the theory that if a mess=
age doesn&#39;t apply to the single most recent state, then it&#39;s no goo=
d, so you don&#39;t need to explicitly say which state it applies to.=C2=A0=
 But that seems painful, especially if you want to tolerate a degree of par=
tial order / forking history.=C2=A0 For application messages, you definitel=
y need it, otherwise you have an issue with application messages being out =
of order with handshake messages.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; That said, it does seem like we could maybe steal the epoch from elsew=
here and save a few hash invocations.=C2=A0 The question is what value we c=
ould re-use that wouldn&#39;t be leaking information.=C2=A0 The tree hash s=
eems bad from that perspective, because it is never transmitted in the clea=
r otherwise.=C2=A0 Another option I had pondered was re-using the confirmat=
ion MAC value.=C2=A0 In any case, as a first effort, it seemed simpler to d=
erive a value for the purpose.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; W.r.t. the transcript hash - I have the same suspicion you do, but I a=
m waiting for someone with a security proof in hand to tell me it&#39;s OK =
to remove :)<br>
<br>
I will do a round of review next week but *from what I remember* about the =
proposal,<br>
I don=E2=80=99t think you can do that. The transcript hash contains strictl=
y more information than<br>
the tree hash anyway, especially for authentication. I=E2=80=99ll check whe=
n reviewing but if the tree hash<br>
doesn=E2=80=99t cover the signatures, for example, then you can=E2=80=99t r=
eplace one by the other.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We might have =
a problem in any case, then, since the transcript hash doesn&#39;t cover th=
e signatures either.</div><div><br></div><div>--Richard<br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
B.</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000006fdbc605876ed25b--


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To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
References: <CAL02cgSE1xTF2Wsq-u=BCu2Z_4UzMzqMPi=D_H7_7hbRpUMVVA@mail.gmail.com> <2D195D14-9F9A-4D64-92EF-35C601C52C01@inria.fr> <CAL02cgR8gQ6cH_QXd_9v46aJ5aeo=b=1GiYu9YxCNYzJb0tOFQ@mail.gmail.com> <B36BF8F5-EAE9-4C96-A867-82CDFBF830C0@inria.fr> <CAL02cgQ7-JMQsG6sq6YBB3G-5tmCVQoo07nvW63tzBzHPQ0ZWw@mail.gmail.com> <AC74CACD-541B-49CD-9CC9-63343307A53D@fastmail.com> <CAL02cgR98gpF1HqDn31-xxUC6w3Orec_P=2VZ_5jc3xx6uLWCQ@mail.gmail.com> <E984A4FB-DBA9-4B4D-A0F4-A6A5ABEF8ADD@inria.fr> <CAL02cgQtF4_gAM1dd+3Vrsi+p-1-R3otRHbOTbiLELVxiuyLVg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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> On Apr 26, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx> wrote:
>=20
> We might have a problem in any case, then, since the transcript hash =
doesn't cover the signatures either.
>=20

Ok, there might be an issue then, I am quite sure that it was covered at =
some
point, so it might have been lost. The slight difference with TLS is =
that some
messages can be discarded from processing =
(add_send/receive_current_member
or add_send/receive_new_member) while I expect that all of the messages =
must
somehow be contributed to the transcript-hash to provide the strongest =
authentication
properties. I=E2=80=99ll have a look into this...

B.=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 26, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Richard Barnes &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rlb@ipv.sx" class=3D"">rlb@ipv.sx</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">We =
might have a problem in any case, then, since the transcript hash =
doesn't cover the signatures either.</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Ok, there might be an issue then, I am quite =
sure that it was covered at some</div><div class=3D"">point, so it might =
have been lost. The slight difference with TLS is that some</div><div =
class=3D"">messages can be discarded from processing =
(add_send/receive_current_member</div><div class=3D"">or =
add_send/receive_new_member) while I expect that all of the messages =
must</div><div class=3D"">somehow be contributed to the transcript-hash =
to provide the strongest authentication</div><div class=3D"">properties. =
I=E2=80=99ll have a look into this...</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">B.</div></body></html>=

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From: Jon Callas <jon@callas.org>
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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> On Apr 26, 2019, at 2:22 AM, Michael Rosenberg <micro@fastmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> So why not remove epoch entirely?

An epoch lets you deal with things happening neither too often nor not =
often enough. Presume there is a client that is either malicious or just =
stupid. You want to keep it from forcing a rekey every 100=C2=B5s. You =
want to force a rekey every so often. Hence epochs. Yeah, picking the =
right epoch size is an exercise left to the reader.

	Jon


From nobody Fri Apr 26 13:18:18 2019
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Subject: Re: [MLS] Unpredictable epochs?
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> On Apr 26, 2019, at 9:26 PM, Jon Callas <jon@callas.org> wrote:
>=20
>> On Apr 26, 2019, at 2:22 AM, Michael Rosenberg <micro@fastmail.com> wrote=
:
>>=20
>> So why not remove epoch entirely?
>=20
> An epoch lets you deal with things happening neither too often nor not oft=
en enough. Presume there is a client that is either malicious or just stupid=
. You want to keep it from forcing a rekey every 100=C2=B5s. You want to for=
ce a rekey every so often. Hence epochs. Yeah, picking the right epoch size i=
s an exercise left to the reader.

You can=E2=80=99t use the epoch number for that as it is just global counter=
 for group operations, we will have to keep track of the latest group operat=
ion =E2=80=9Ctimestamp=E2=80=9D for each member within the group state to ch=
eck =E2=80=9Cupdate frequency=E2=80=9D and handle some of the situations you=
 described.

Btw in the TreeKEM formal spec I use a 64 bit unsigned integer, and I feel l=
ike having more than 2^32 group operations over the lifetime of a group is n=
ot unrealistic in certain extreme use cases, especially with large groups fo=
rcing PCS for application messages by triggering an update after each app me=
ssage...

We could remove the epoch number if we really want but it is necessary to gi=
ve the Delivery Service some ordering information (unpredictable or not is a=
n interesting question) to handle concurrent handshake messages which is, I b=
elieve, the main current goal of that information.

Benjamin=

