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From: cabnewstv3@ROCKETMAIL.COM
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] CABLE TV
X-To:         cabnewstv3@rocketmai.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sun Oct  1 22:04:59 2000
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From: realinc@PROPS.NET
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Six Figure Income Now
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You were recently referred as someone who had a serious
interest in earning a Six Figure Income, but did not
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and if you have reached the point in your life where you are
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To be removed respond at  notnow1000@yahoo.com


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  2 03:06:37 2000
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Reply-To: Opt-In9258059@ATT.COM
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From: Opt-In9258059@ATT.COM
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] How you can make $100 - $500 an hour doing something
              FUN
X-To:         opt_in45@anmail.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

 From: Michelle Smith - publisher of the "Money Making Opportunities" Newsletter
 Sunday, 9 p.m.

 Hello,

        If you're interested in earning $100 - $500 an hour doing something FUN,
        Then I want to share something with you...


 Imagine you come home from a hard day's work (exhausted..)

 You immediately go straight to bed.  You get undressed,
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 stressed out so you lie on your back.

 When you look up at the ceiling, it's as if the ceiling has been removed!

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         ...and even shooting stars!

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 And you'll be sent the full details on
 how to make $100 - $500 an hour, as well as
 pictures of these murals so you can see
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 Best regards,

 Michelle Smith

 P.S. We'll also send you a free Opportunity E-zine with
 more interesting Money-Making Opportunities like this one,
 and important info. for the home-based entrepreneur!

 P.P.S. Also, even though 99% of people don't know about this
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 reply to make sure you get to lock down YOUR city!


 To unsubscribe mailto:unsubscribe-930@newmail.net


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  2 11:45:41 2000
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From: choes@EARTHLINK.NET
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Fire The Creep You Call Your Boss!!                  
              22571
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<HTML><BR>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  2 17:00:02 2000
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Mail-Followup-To: MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com
References: <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.970066572.27734.pcalhoun@nasnfs.eng>
            <39D27A27.E7029F87@comet.columbia.edu>
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Message-ID:  <20001002164645.N19948@bell-labs.com>
Date:         Mon, 2 Oct 2000 16:46:45 -0400
Reply-To: Luca Salgarelli <lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Luca Salgarelli <lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <39D27A27.E7029F87@comet.columbia.edu>; from
              campbell@comet.columbia.edu on Wed, Sep 27,
              2000 at 03:52:23PM -0700

Basavaraj, Andrew,

I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.

> Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up with a set of
> requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met the
> requirements?
>
> It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
>
> It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas to
> existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to others?).
>
> In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support tunneling
> (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call in a
> process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks like on
> the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/ proactive
> IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.

I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a message to the
WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions were left
unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come up
with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical soundness
of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I still
do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG were
set, and how the sub-WG was formed.

I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long run from this
seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on the
technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs that
were left out.

Would someone please comment on this?

Thanks
Luca


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  2 17:09:03 2000
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Reply-To: Haseeb Akhtar <haseeb@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Haseeb Akhtar <haseeb@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
X-To:         Luca Salgarelli <lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C02CB4.8C5CA0B0
Content-Type: text/plain

Hello folks,

Ditto. The requirements should have come first before the solution!

Regards,

Haseeb

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Luca Salgarelli [SMTP:lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM]
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 3:47 PM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
>
> Basavaraj, Andrew,
>
> I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.
>
> > Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up with a set of
> > requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met the
> > requirements?
> >
> > It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
> >
> > It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas to
> > existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to others?).
> >
> > In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support tunneling
> > (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call in a
> > process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks like on
> > the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/ proactive
> > IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.
>
> I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a message to the
> WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions were left
> unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come up
> with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical
> soundness
> of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I still
> do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG were
> set, and how the sub-WG was formed.
>
> I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long run from this
> seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on the
> technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs that
> were left out.
>
> Would someone please comment on this?
>
> Thanks
> Luca

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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available</TITLE>
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hello folks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ditto. The =
requirements should have come first before the solution!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Haseeb</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Luca Salgarelli =
[SMTP:lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Monday, October 02, 2000 3:47 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 =
archives available</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Basavaraj, Andrew,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would like to add some comments to =
what Andrew wrote.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Regards the process: I thought =
the idea was to come up with a set of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; requirements, then a strawman =
proposal that sort consensus and met the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; requirements?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; It looks like the starting point =
was too narrow?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; It looks like the output from =
the design team resulted in deltas to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; existing IDs? (Why are these two =
IDs technically superior to others?).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; In addition, weeding out some =
IDs because they didn't support tunneling</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging =
(e.g., CIP), etc.&nbsp; was a bad call in a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; process that should have been =
open and inclusive and now looks like on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the surface to have preselected =
two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/ proactive</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; IDs) that have not been proven =
&quot;better&quot; than others.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I completely agree with Andrew. =
Several weeks ago I wrote a message to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">WG asking clarifications about this =
process, but those questions were left</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">unanswered. I too thought that the =
goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come up</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">with a set of requirements. While I =
do not question the technical soundness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of the proposals (not requirements) =
that this sub-WG has defined, I still</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">do not understand the process through =
which the goals for the sub-WG were</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">set, and how the sub-WG was =
formed.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I also do not understand how the WG =
can benefit in the long run from this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">seemingly closed process where no =
real discussion has taken place on the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">technical merits (or lack of thereof, =
for what matters) of the IDs that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">were left out.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Would someone please comment on =
this?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Luca</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
X-To:         Haseeb Akhtar <haseeb@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <40DC7CF03BDDD3118F3D0000F806EEEC4F33AA@zrchb199.us.nortel.com>

> >
> > I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a message to the
> > WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions were left
> > unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come up
> > with a set of requirements.
hmmm... this must have come up when I wasn't there... However, both documents
do list the problem to be solved. If you believe that you have a set of
requirements that haven't been solved, then by all means, bring them up.
Furthermore, if the WG wants to create an I-D with requirements, then I would
be most interested as well.

> > While I do not question the technical
> > soundness
> > of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I still
> > do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG were
> > set, and how the sub-WG was formed.

As discussed at the IETF, people that had contributions got together with the
intention of reducing the number of I-Ds to one. I believe that the chairs
decided that people with I-Ds were to work together. I suppose that they
figured that if you didn't have an I-D written up in this space, then you
probably didn't care to work on consolidating the I-Ds.

> >
> > I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long run from this
> > seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on the
> > technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs that
> > were left out.

Which I-Ds? I was quite certain that we took all of them into account.

PatC


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From: Mohamed Khalil <mkhalil@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
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To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello folks,

I agree with all completely. As a participant of the handoff meetings at the
last IETF I was expecting to follow the engineering approach (Since we are
all belong to the Internet Engineering Task Force) of coming up with a set
of requirements for IPv4   then we propose different solutions which satisfy
those requirements. Unfortunately, this never happened.

MK

-----Original Message-----
From: Akhtar, Haseeb [RICH1:IP30-M:EXCH]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 4:06 PM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available



Hello folks,

Ditto. The requirements should have come first before the solution!

Regards,

Haseeb

        -----Original Message-----
From:   Luca Salgarelli [SMTP:lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM]
Sent:   Monday, October 02, 2000 3:47 PM
To:     MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject:        Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available

        Basavaraj, Andrew,

        I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.

        > Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up with a set
of
> requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met the
> requirements?
>
> It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
>
> It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas to
> existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to others?).
>
> In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support tunneling
> (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call in a
> process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks like on
> the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/ proactive
> IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.

        I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a message
to the
WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions were left
unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come up
with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical soundness
of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I still
do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG were
set, and how the sub-WG was formed.

        I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long run from
this
seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on the
technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs that
were left out.

        Would someone please comment on this?

        Thanks
Luca


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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available</TITLE>

<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=720553921-02102000><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Hello folks</FONT>,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>I agree with<SPAN class=720553921-02102000> all
</SPAN>completely. As a participant of the handoff meetings at the last IETF I
was expecting to follow the engineering approach (Since we are all belong to the
Internet Engineering Task Force) of coming up with a set of requirements for
IPv4&nbsp;&nbsp; then we propose different solutions which satisfy those
requirements. Unfortunately, this never happened.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>MK</FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Akhtar, Haseeb
  [RICH1:IP30-M:EXCH] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 02, 2000 4:06
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
  [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Hello folks,</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Ditto. The requirements should have
  come first before the solution!</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Haseeb</FONT> </P>
  <UL>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=1>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><B><FONT
    face=Arial size=1>From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT face=Arial size=1>Luca
    Salgarelli [SMTP:lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM]</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=Arial
    size=1>Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT face=Arial size=1>Monday, October
    02, 2000 3:47 PM</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=Arial
    size=1>To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT face=Arial
    size=1>MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=Arial
    size=1>Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT
    face=Arial size=1>Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available</FONT>
    </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Basavaraj, Andrew,</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would like to add some comments to what Andrew
    wrote.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; Regards the process: I thought the idea was
    to come up with a set of</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;
    requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met
    the</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; requirements?</FONT> <BR><FONT
    face=Arial size=2>&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; It looks like
    the starting point was too narrow?</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
    size=2>&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; It looks like the output
    from the design team resulted in deltas to</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
    size=2>&gt; existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to
    others?).</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT
    face=Arial size=2>&gt; In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't
    support tunneling</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; (e.g., Hawaii) or
    MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.&nbsp; was a bad call in a</FONT> <BR><FONT
    face=Arial size=2>&gt; process that should have been open and inclusive and
    now looks like on</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; the surface to
    have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/ proactive</FONT> <BR><FONT
    face=Arial size=2>&gt; IDs) that have not been proven "better" than
    others.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago
    I wrote a message to the</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>WG asking
    clarifications about this process, but those questions were left</FONT>
    <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this
    sub-WG (?) was to come up</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>with a set of
    requirements. While I do not question the technical soundness</FONT>
    <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>of the proposals (not requirements) that this
    sub-WG has defined, I still</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>do not
    understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG were</FONT>
    <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>set, and how the sub-WG was formed.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I also do not understand how the WG can benefit
    in the long run from this</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>seemingly
    closed process where no real discussion has taken place on the</FONT>
    <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what
    matters) of the IDs that</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>were left
    out.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Would someone please comment on this?</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
    size=2>Luca</FONT> </P></UL></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Christos Chrisanthakopoulos <xchr@INTRANET.GR>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] MIP implementation !!!
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Good morning folks !
Can someone please tell me whats going on with
the Binghamton UNIs URL for the Linux implementation
on Mobile IP? Its been for ages that Im trying to download
the files but it seems that the URL doesn't work anymore.
Does anyone know if they have any updated versions of the
implementation which runs on 2.2.x Kernells?

Regards,
            Christos

--
Christos Chrisanthakopoulos

INTRACOM S.A.
Development Programmes Department
Panepistimiou 254
26443  Patras
GREECE

Tel:  (+30 61) 465153 (direct)
E-mail: xchr@intranet.gr
URL: www.intracom.gr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 07:01:16 2000
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From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-mobileip-gnaie-01.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Generalized NAI Extension (GNAIE)
        Author(s)       : M. Khalil, E. Qaddoura, H. Akhtar, P. Calhoun
        Filename        : draft-ietf-mobileip-gnaie-01.txt
        Pages           : 7
        Date            : 02-Oct-00

The Mobile IP Extensions Rationalization (MIER) specification defines
a new extension header format, that is intended to extend the Mobile
IP extension address space. This document defines the Generalized
Network Access Identifier (NAI) extension, which SHOULD be used by
any Mobile IP extension specifying an extension containing an NAI.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mobileip-gnaie-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
        "get draft-ietf-mobileip-gnaie-01.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
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or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 07:12:33 2000
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Date:         Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:09:12 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Mohamed Khalil <mkhalil@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

I think I could start writing the requirements right now:

1) the solution MUST NOT suck (for a definition of "suck",
   consider the scalability of host based routing)
2) the solution MUST be based on tunnels, since this is the way mobile IPv4
works
3) the solution MUST NOT be based on host routing (missing this, requirement
1) would be       violated)
4) the solution MUST include security mechanisms that work fine and fast.
5) the solution MUST be fast/low interruption.
6) During handoff it MUST be possible to transfer some info to the new FA.
7) queries to AAA servers MUST be minimized
...


do we have to read this from an ID?

Or, wouldn't it be faster to build on what some colleagues have written
in some documents, and try to improve them if possible?
That is send comments to the list/authors???

$ 2/100

alessio

> ----------
> From:         Mohamed Khalil[SMTP:mkhalil@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]
> Reply To:     Mohamed Khalil
> Sent:         02 October 2000 23:30
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I agree with all completely. As a participant of the handoff meetings at
> the last IETF I was expecting to follow the engineering approach (Since we
> are all belong to the Internet Engineering Task Force) of coming up with a
> set of requirements for IPv4   then we propose different solutions which
> satisfy those requirements. Unfortunately, this never happened.
>
> MK
>
>       -----Original Message-----
>       From: Akhtar, Haseeb [RICH1:IP30-M:EXCH]
>       Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 4:06 PM
>       To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
>       Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
>
>
>
>       Hello folks,
>
>       Ditto. The requirements should have come first before the solution!
>
>       Regards,
>
>       Haseeb
>
>               -----Original Message-----
>       From:   Luca Salgarelli [SMTP:lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM]
>       Sent:   Monday, October 02, 2000 3:47 PM
>       To:     MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
>       Subject:        Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
>
>               Basavaraj, Andrew,
>
>               I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.
>
>               > Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up
> with a set of
>       > requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met
> the
>       > requirements?
>       >
>       > It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
>       >
>       > It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas
> to
>       > existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to
> others?).
>       >
>       > In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support
> tunneling
>       > (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call
> in a
>       > process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks
> like on
>       > the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/
> proactive
>       > IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.
>
>               I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a
> message to the
>       WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions
> were left
>       unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to
> come up
>       with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical
> soundness
>       of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I
> still
>       do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG
> were
>       set, and how the sub-WG was formed.
>
>               I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long
> run from this
>       seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on
> the
>       technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs
> that
>       were left out.
>
>               Would someone please comment on this?
>
>               Thanks
>       Luca
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 09:55:02 2000
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From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
X-To:         Luca Salgarelli <lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Luca,


> ----------
> From:         Luca Salgarelli
> Reply To:     Luca Salgarelli
> Sent:         Tuesday, October 3, 2000 4:46 AM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
>
> Basavaraj, Andrew,
>
> I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.
>
> > Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up with a set of
> > requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met the
> > requirements?
> >
> > It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
> >
> > It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas to
> > existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to others?).
> >
> > In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support tunneling
> > (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call in a
> > process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks like on
> > the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/ proactive
> > IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.
>
> I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a message to the
> WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions were left
> unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come up
> with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical
> soundness
> of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I still
> do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG were
> set, and how the sub-WG was formed.
>
> I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long run from this
> seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on the
> technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs that
> were left out.
>
> Would someone please comment on this?
>
Of course!

There were enough drafts dealing with the problem presented at the last
IETF.   The authors of all of those drafts got together and came up with
some agreements about what we wanted to do about fast handoff in a meeting
outside the MIP working group meeting.  The outcome of those authors
discussions were presented to the working group and the entire working group
was asked for comment.   This is recorded in the minutes of the working
group meeting.  You can review those if you weren't at the meeting in
Pittsburgh.

Among the conclusions reached were that the WG would like to see two drafts
for fast handover - one for IPv4 and one for IPv6 - and that a design team
was being formed to look at each.

The IPv4 design team has pretty much concluded its work and is coming back
to the working group with two drafts.  (A previous post pointed to the
archive of the minutes for you to review the discussions that went on in
these meetings.)   In brief the outcome was that 3 drafts were merged into a
single draft (Calhoun, et. al.) and another draft was revised (Soliman and
El Malki).  The design team could not reach consensus on selecting just one
of these.  So it is now up to the working group to pick a single draft.   If
there are aspects of the problem that are not covered by either of the
existing drafts it is time for members of the working group to speak up.
The latest versions of both drafts have been posted.

The IPv6 design team is just about to begin its work.

It seems to me that the problem is fairly well understood, but if it becomes
apparent from the WG discussion that there is something that is being missed
it will be taken into consideration.

Hope this helps,
Phil


> Thanks
> Luca
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 10:22:26 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Andrew T. Campbell" <campbell@comet.columbia.edu>
Organization: Center for Telecommunications Research
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Alessio:

"Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" wrote:
>
> I think I could start writing the requirements right now:
>

From the right ;-)

> 1) the solution MUST NOT suck (for a definition of "suck",
>    consider the scalability of host based routing)

And on the left ...

Per-host routes in the "wireless access network" (not the Internet) are
required (in my estimation) for a number of reasons: basis
for fast handoff control, aggregated micro-QOS to the host, etc.

CIP is a proponent of this approach and its highly scalable.

Can you shine some light on your view? Its easy to say
'not scalable' but please back that claim up?

> 2) the solution MUST be based on tunnels, since this is the way mobile IPv4
> works

Why?

Hawaii and CIP don't carry the overhead of tunneling or address
translation to deliver data in the access network, nor need
to be aware of a tree structure of FAs. What is the basis for
such religion?

On a related note. If the working group will only entertain work items
that include tunneling, MIP messaging, etc., then that will limit
any innovation of this group in the long term. Its a hard line (MIPv4/
MIPv6 and
nothing else). What happens if the carriers decide that MIP
will never work and seek alternatives? Should we simply keep working on
say (lateral
point) "ATM" in the hope that ATM one day get deployed to
the desk top once the carriers 'get it'. (BTW, I don't
mean to slur MIP by attaching its name to ATM - just
to illustrate my point).

How else should be scope our work for acceptability by the
polit bureau ;-) May be the chairs can tell us what
assumptions to base our research on.

> 3) the solution MUST NOT be based on host routing (missing this, requirement

Your repeating yourself old chap.

> 1) would be       violated)
?
> 4) the solution MUST include security mechanisms that work fine and fast.

This is an important one. I'd add:

The solution should have a security model that operates on the
timescales
of fast handoff (extreme case - that can be very fast in pico-nets). AAA
may not work at
such speeds?

CIP has a light weight/ fast and secure model that is tailored to
delivering
performance securrity at fast handoff speeds.

> 5) the solution MUST be fast/low interruption.

Agree.

> 6) During handoff it MUST be possible to transfer some info to the new FA.

Only in the case of buffering and forwarding between FAs during handoff
- does
that motivate your comment? I must say  that all the explicit signaled
seamless
handoff proposals seem very complex - the exchange of "state" between
FAs may not
scale?

My feeling is that fast handoff with low loss should be the first
order goal. Zero loss requires lots of additional buffering,
synchronization
and signaling: it will not fly and may be unscalable.


> 7) queries to AAA servers MUST be minimized

Faster is the issue. If AAA (control) is slow then we are not going to
deliver
better performance on the data path

> ...
>
> do we have to read this from an ID?
>
> Or, wouldn't it be faster to build on what some colleagues have written
> in some documents, and try to improve them if possible?
> That is send comments to the list/authors???

Thanks for your mail. While we agree/disagree on some points, its
healthy and open to discuss the pros/cons.

>
> $ 2/100
>
> alessio
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Mohamed Khalil[SMTP:mkhalil@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]
> > Reply To:     Mohamed Khalil
> > Sent:         02 October 2000 23:30
> > To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
> >
> > Hello folks,
> >
> > I agree with all completely. As a participant of the handoff meetings at
> > the last IETF I was expecting to follow the engineering approach (Since we
> > are all belong to the Internet Engineering Task Force) of coming up with a
> > set of requirements for IPv4   then we propose different solutions which
> > satisfy those requirements. Unfortunately, this never happened.
> >
> > MK
> >
> >       -----Original Message-----
> >       From: Akhtar, Haseeb [RICH1:IP30-M:EXCH]
> >       Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 4:06 PM
> >       To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> >       Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
> >
> >
> >
> >       Hello folks,
> >
> >       Ditto. The requirements should have come first before the solution!
> >
> >       Regards,
> >
> >       Haseeb
> >
> >               -----Original Message-----
> >       From:   Luca Salgarelli [SMTP:lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM]
> >       Sent:   Monday, October 02, 2000 3:47 PM
> >       To:     MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> >       Subject:        Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
> >
> >               Basavaraj, Andrew,
> >
> >               I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.
> >
> >               > Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up
> > with a set of
> >       > requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met
> > the
> >       > requirements?
> >       >
> >       > It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
> >       >
> >       > It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas
> > to
> >       > existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to
> > others?).
> >       >
> >       > In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support
> > tunneling
> >       > (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call
> > in a
> >       > process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks
> > like on
> >       > the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/
> > proactive
> >       > IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.
> >
> >               I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a
> > message to the
> >       WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions
> > were left
> >       unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to
> > come up
> >       with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical
> > soundness
> >       of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I
> > still
> >       do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG
> > were
> >       set, and how the sub-WG was formed.
> >
> >               I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long
> > run from this
> >       seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on
> > the
> >       technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs
> > that
> >       were left out.
> >
> >               Would someone please comment on this?
> >
> >               Thanks
> >       Luca
> >
> >


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 10:49:32 2000
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From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         campbell@comet.columbia.edu
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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>
> > 2) the solution MUST be based on tunnels, since this is the way mobile IPv4
> > works
>
> Why?
>
> Hawaii and CIP don't carry the overhead of tunneling or address
> translation to deliver data in the access network, nor need
> to be aware of a tree structure of FAs. What is the basis for
> such religion?
>
> On a related note. If the working group will only entertain work items
> that include tunneling, MIP messaging, etc., then that will limit
> any innovation of this group in the long term. Its a hard line (MIPv4/
> MIPv6 and
> nothing else). What happens if the carriers decide that MIP
> will never work and seek alternatives? Should we simply keep working on
> say (lateral
> point) "ATM" in the hope that ATM one day get deployed to
> the desk top once the carriers 'get it'. (BTW, I don't
> mean to slur MIP by attaching its name to ATM - just
> to illustrate my point).
>
> How else should be scope our work for acceptability by the
> polit bureau ;-) May be the chairs can tell us what
> assumptions to base our research on.
>

This has nothing to do with religion, IMHO, and it also has nothing to do with
whether CIP, HAWAII or any other Micro-Mobility protocol is better than Mobile
IP. It simply has to do with setting the WG focus. At every IETF, the MIP WG
meetings are diluted by contributions that have nothing to do with the Mobile
IP protocol. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that CIP et al. are important,
but they do not belong in the Mobile IP WG. The chairs have stated this, so it
shouldn't be a surprise that the work in the Mobile IP WG is limited to the
Mobile IP protocol.

Now, what is needed is a new WG where new ideas can be exchanged, and a
Micro-Mobility protocol can be created without having to compete with the
Mobile IP protocol. I have previously stated that such a new WG is in the
process of being created, and the final touches are being done to satisfy IESG
comments. So, all I would ask is that you consider bringing your
Micro-Mobility work, which hopefully supports fast hand-offs, to this new WG
which plans to meet at the December IETF.

PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 10:49:33 2000
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From: Luca Salgarelli <lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
X-To:         Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <DFF2EFB82ADBD311B4BB00508B6F0C5C0176D097@il27exm03.cig.mot.com>;
              from Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com on Tue, Oct 03,
              2000 at 08:42:29AM -0500

Hi Phil.

I was not in Pittsburgh, so your explanation is most welcome. Still, I
don't see why the sub-WG, as a basis for its work, completely ignored other
possible starting points for fast-handoffs, namely the ones based on host
based routing. In particular, I don't think there has been any technical
discussion on the WG mailing-list to justify such weeding.

Again, I asked questions about this lack of technical discussion when the
re-chartering was being discussed a few weeks ago. Apart from a message
from Charlie who said that he was not very comfortable "about disallowing
host-route based approaches for Mobile IP", there was no other reply.

And now we see that even lacking such technical discussion, we already have
selected some solutions. I would be happy to see a sub-WG working to
specify requirements, or to evaluate proposals about fast-handoffs (along
the lines of what has been done in the AAA WG). But in this case the sub-WG
was from the start ignoring solutions based on host-based routing, without
any evaluation on the technical merits of such approach.

I don't think that such a seemingly closed approach is what I would expect
from the IETF.

Thanks
Luca

On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 08:42:29AM -0500, Roberts Philip-qa3445 wrote:
> Hi Luca,
>
>
> > ----------
> > From:       Luca Salgarelli
> > Reply To:   Luca Salgarelli
> > Sent:       Tuesday, October 3, 2000 4:46 AM
> > To:         MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject:    Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
> >
> > Basavaraj, Andrew,
> >
> > I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.
> >
> > > Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up with a set of
> > > requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met the
> > > requirements?
> > >
> > > It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
> > >
> > > It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas to
> > > existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to others?).
> > >
> > > In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support tunneling
> > > (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call in a
> > > process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks like on
> > > the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/ proactive
> > > IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.
> >
> > I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a message to the
> > WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions were left
> > unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come up
> > with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical
> > soundness
> > of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I still
> > do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG were
> > set, and how the sub-WG was formed.
> >
> > I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long run from this
> > seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on the
> > technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs that
> > were left out.
> >
> > Would someone please comment on this?
> >
> Of course!
>
> There were enough drafts dealing with the problem presented at the last
> IETF.   The authors of all of those drafts got together and came up with
> some agreements about what we wanted to do about fast handoff in a meeting
> outside the MIP working group meeting.  The outcome of those authors
> discussions were presented to the working group and the entire working group
> was asked for comment.   This is recorded in the minutes of the working
> group meeting.  You can review those if you weren't at the meeting in
> Pittsburgh.
>
> Among the conclusions reached were that the WG would like to see two drafts
> for fast handover - one for IPv4 and one for IPv6 - and that a design team
> was being formed to look at each.
>
> The IPv4 design team has pretty much concluded its work and is coming back
> to the working group with two drafts.  (A previous post pointed to the
> archive of the minutes for you to review the discussions that went on in
> these meetings.)   In brief the outcome was that 3 drafts were merged into a
> single draft (Calhoun, et. al.) and another draft was revised (Soliman and
> El Malki).  The design team could not reach consensus on selecting just one
> of these.  So it is now up to the working group to pick a single draft.   If
> there are aspects of the problem that are not covered by either of the
> existing drafts it is time for members of the working group to speak up.
> The latest versions of both drafts have been posted.
>
> The IPv6 design team is just about to begin its work.
>
> It seems to me that the problem is fairly well understood, but if it becomes
> apparent from the WG discussion that there is something that is being missed
> it will be taken into consideration.
>
> Hope this helps,
> Phil
>
>
> > Thanks
> > Luca
> >
> >


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 11:04:37 2000
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From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Pat Calhoun <pcalhoun@eng.sun.com>
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Hello Pat,

> Now, what is needed is a new WG where new ideas can be exchanged, and a
> Micro-Mobility protocol can be created without having to compete with the
> Mobile IP protocol. I have previously stated that such a new WG is in the
> process of being created, and the final touches are being done to satisfy IESG
> comments. So, all I would ask is that you consider bringing your
> Micro-Mobility work, which hopefully supports fast hand-offs, to this new WG
> which plans to meet at the December IETF.

Is there a mailing list for this proposed new working group?

Your wording about "non-competition" makes me quite nervous.
I would infer that some micro-mobility approaches have been
somehow disenfranchised because of the action of the mobile-ip
working group.  However, I don't believe that has occurred.

I'm very curious about the proposed charter for this new working
group.  I also wonder whether considerations about Mobile IP would
be excluded from consideration within the new working group, in
order to "avoid competition".  If so, I think that would be a
terrific botch.

Is this a minefield?

I notice your use of the term "micro-mobility".  Do you mean to
say mobility between multiple, homogenous network links?  Are
heterogeneous links excluded?  Is handover of interest?  Smooth
handover?  Fast handover?

Regards,
Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 11:13:47 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
X-To:         Luca Salgarelli <lsalgarelli@bell-labs.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Luca,


> ----------
> From:         Luca Salgarelli
> Sent:         Tuesday, October 3, 2000 10:37 PM
> To:   Roberts Philip-qa3445
> Cc:   MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
>
> Hi Phil.
>
> I was not in Pittsburgh, so your explanation is most welcome.
>
Sorry you missed it and we're glad to be able to help.

>  Still, I
> don't see why the sub-WG, as a basis for its work, completely ignored
> other
> possible starting points for fast-handoffs, namely the ones based on host
> based routing. In particular, I don't think there has been any technical
> discussion on the WG mailing-list to justify such weeding.
>
> Again, I asked questions about this lack of technical discussion when the
> re-chartering was being discussed a few weeks ago. Apart from a message
> from Charlie who said that he was not very comfortable "about disallowing
> host-route based approaches for Mobile IP", there was no other reply.
>
> And now we see that even lacking such technical discussion, we already
> have
> selected some solutions. I would be happy to see a sub-WG working to
> specify requirements, or to evaluate proposals about fast-handoffs (along
> the lines of what has been done in the AAA WG). But in this case the
> sub-WG
> was from the start ignoring solutions based on host-based routing, without
> any evaluation on the technical merits of such approach.
>
> I don't think that such a seemingly closed approach is what I would expect
> from the IETF.
>
There seem to be two issues here.  First the trimming of the charter and
second the consideration of proposals for fast handoffs.   They could be
related in that the two proposals that were removed as working group items
are interested in handling handoffs faster.

On trimming the charter, neither of the chairs heard a lot of objections
from the working group to consolidating the charter.  We try to work on a
rough consensus and would expect more people in the working group than just
the authors of one approach objecting before we could begin to believe the
working group as a whole might be concerned about the decision.   Let me say
it again if I haven't made it clear in the past.  We believe this
consolidation will allow the working group to focus better on making
solutions based on Mobile IP better prepared for deployment.   If there is a
lot of interest in proposals based on alternate approaches to Mobile IP
there may be room somewhere in the IETF for consideration of such proposals.

On the issue of fast handoff.  You seem mainly to object to the seemingly
closed process but again neither chair finds this an easy objection to
understand.  Anyone who had an I-D on fast handoff was allowed to
participate in the meeting in Pittsburgh, the results of that meeting were
discussed in the working group meeting itself, it was announced that there
were design teams forming and the leaders of the design teams were
designated, and the minutes were posted on the list.  I'm not sure what else
could've been done.

Phil


> Thanks
> Luca
>
> On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 08:42:29AM -0500, Roberts Philip-qa3445 wrote:
> > Hi Luca,
> >
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From:     Luca Salgarelli
> > > Reply To:         Luca Salgarelli
> > > Sent:     Tuesday, October 3, 2000 4:46 AM
> > > To:       MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > Subject:  Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
> > >
> > > Basavaraj, Andrew,
> > >
> > > I would like to add some comments to what Andrew wrote.
> > >
> > > > Regards the process: I thought the idea was to come up with a set of
> > > > requirements, then a strawman proposal that sort consensus and met
> the
> > > > requirements?
> > > >
> > > > It looks like the starting point was too narrow?
> > > >
> > > > It looks like the output from the design team resulted in deltas to
> > > > existing IDs? (Why are these two IDs technically superior to
> others?).
> > > >
> > > > In addition, weeding out some IDs because they didn't support
> tunneling
> > > > (e.g., Hawaii) or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.  was a bad call in
> a
> > > > process that should have been open and inclusive and now looks like
> on
> > > > the surface to have preselected two IDs (i.e., fast handoff/
> proactive
> > > > IDs) that have not been proven "better" than others.
> > >
> > > I completely agree with Andrew. Several weeks ago I wrote a message to
> the
> > > WG asking clarifications about this process, but those questions were
> left
> > > unanswered. I too thought that the goal of this sub-WG (?) was to come
> up
> > > with a set of requirements. While I do not question the technical
> > > soundness
> > > of the proposals (not requirements) that this sub-WG has defined, I
> still
> > > do not understand the process through which the goals for the sub-WG
> were
> > > set, and how the sub-WG was formed.
> > >
> > > I also do not understand how the WG can benefit in the long run from
> this
> > > seemingly closed process where no real discussion has taken place on
> the
> > > technical merits (or lack of thereof, for what matters) of the IDs
> that
> > > were left out.
> > >
> > > Would someone please comment on this?
> > >
> > Of course!
> >
> > There were enough drafts dealing with the problem presented at the last
> > IETF.   The authors of all of those drafts got together and came up with
> > some agreements about what we wanted to do about fast handoff in a
> meeting
> > outside the MIP working group meeting.  The outcome of those authors
> > discussions were presented to the working group and the entire working
> group
> > was asked for comment.   This is recorded in the minutes of the working
> > group meeting.  You can review those if you weren't at the meeting in
> > Pittsburgh.
> >
> > Among the conclusions reached were that the WG would like to see two
> drafts
> > for fast handover - one for IPv4 and one for IPv6 - and that a design
> team
> > was being formed to look at each.
> >
> > The IPv4 design team has pretty much concluded its work and is coming
> back
> > to the working group with two drafts.  (A previous post pointed to the
> > archive of the minutes for you to review the discussions that went on in
> > these meetings.)   In brief the outcome was that 3 drafts were merged
> into a
> > single draft (Calhoun, et. al.) and another draft was revised (Soliman
> and
> > El Malki).  The design team could not reach consensus on selecting just
> one
> > of these.  So it is now up to the working group to pick a single draft.
> If
> > there are aspects of the problem that are not covered by either of the
> > existing drafts it is time for members of the working group to speak up.
> > The latest versions of both drafts have been posted.
> >
> > The IPv6 design team is just about to begin its work.
> >
> > It seems to me that the problem is fairly well understood, but if it
> becomes
> > apparent from the WG discussion that there is something that is being
> missed
> > it will be taken into consideration.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > > Thanks
> > > Luca
> > >
> > >
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 11:13:47 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@eng.sun.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID" <39D9F4FC.D0354071@iprg.nokia.com>

Sigh, I knew I should have spent hours crafting that e-mail to ensure that it
would be completely P/C. However, given the amount of work load I had, I could
only afford a short response. Of course, now I will have to spend those hours
to do damage control :( :(

See my responses below.

PatC

>
> Hello Pat,
>
> > Now, what is needed is a new WG where new ideas can be exchanged, and a
> > Micro-Mobility protocol can be created without having to compete with the
> > Mobile IP protocol. I have previously stated that such a new WG is in the
> > process of being created, and the final touches are being done to satisfy IESG
> > comments. So, all I would ask is that you consider bringing your
> > Micro-Mobility work, which hopefully supports fast hand-offs, to this new WG
> > which plans to meet at the December IETF.
>
> Is there a mailing list for this proposed new working group?

This is the result of the CRAPS BOF, but with a much more limited scope. The
CRAPS mailing list will evolve to the new WG mailing list.

>
> Your wording about "non-competition" makes me quite nervous.
> I would infer that some micro-mobility approaches have been
> somehow disenfranchised because of the action of the mobile-ip
> working group.  However, I don't believe that has occurred.

hmmm..... obviously we haven't been reading the same e-mails. The WG chairs
have stated that the Mobile IP WG will, from now on, concentrate on Mobile IP
protocols, and related enhancements. I used the term "compete" quite loosely,
so nothing malicious was intended, and I meant compete for time. The issue, as
I stated, is the somewhat limited amount of time and resources in the Mobile
IP WG. The new WG is intended to take the work that the Mobile IP WG cannot
handle.

>
> I'm very curious about the proposed charter for this new working
> group.  I also wonder whether considerations about Mobile IP would
> be excluded from consideration within the new working group, in
> order to "avoid competition".  If so, I think that would be a
> terrific botch.

Why would you want two WGs to work on Mobile IP? I believe that the Mobile IP
WG chairs want to keep all Mobile IP related protocol development, and other
non-tunneling mobility protocols would be in the new WG.

This is not intended to limit the scope of the Mobile IP protocol in any way,
shape, or form, but rather to allow the Mobile IP WG to concentrate on its
milestones.

>
> Is this a minefield?

Perhaps it is, and my head blew off....

>
> I notice your use of the term "micro-mobility".  Do you mean to
> say mobility between multiple, homogenous network links?  Are
> heterogeneous links excluded?  Is handover of interest?  Smooth
> handover?  Fast handover?
>

Sigh. Charlie, how about I make use of the term non-tunneling approaches
instead?

PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 11:24:18 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "campbell@COMET.COLUMBIA.EDU" <campbell@COMET.COLUMBIA.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> On a related note. If the working group will only entertain work items
> that include tunneling, MIP messaging, etc., then that will limit
> any innovation of this group in the long term. Its a hard line (MIPv4/
> MIPv6 and
> nothing else). What happens if the carriers decide that MIP
> will never work and seek alternatives? Should we simply keep working on
> say (lateral
> point) "ATM" in the hope that ATM one day get deployed to
> the desk top once the carriers 'get it'. (BTW, I don't
> mean to slur MIP by attaching its name to ATM - just
> to illustrate my point).
>
> How else should be scope our work for acceptability by the
> polit bureau ;-) May be the chairs can tell us what
> assumptions to base our research on.
>
>
The polit bureau?  Really, Andrew?

It's not the job of the chairs to tell people what to work on in their labs.
Nor is it our job to tell vendors what to build or network operators what to
buy and deploy.  If your research is so constrained by the charter of a
single working group that's your problem not ours.

It is however our job to help the working group set objectives and keep the
work moving along to reach those objectives.   It's been pretty apparent for
awhile that we've been entertaining research projects on a number of methods
for handling mobility at every IETF meeting and it seems this often detracts
from reaching our objectives of getting Mobile IP done.   We proposed
consolidating the charter on the list and we didn't hear much that would
give us the impression the working group as a whole didn't want this.

Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 11:24:19 2000
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Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "campbell@comet.columbia.edu" <campbell@comet.columbia.edu>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> > 1) the solution MUST NOT suck (for a definition of "suck",
> >    consider the scalability of host based routing)
>
> Per-host routes in the "wireless access network" (not the Internet) are
> required (in my estimation) for a number of reasons: basis
> for fast handoff control, aggregated micro-QOS to the host, etc.
>
> CIP is a proponent of this approach and its highly scalable.
>
> Can you shine some light on your view? Its easy to say
> 'not scalable' but please back that claim up?
>
>
I can shed some light on the requirement:

I don't want the solution to suck. One good example
to give a gist of what I mean by "Suck" is observing
the scalability of host routing. I generally come to the
conclusion "It SUCKS!"

> > 2) the solution MUST be based on tunnels, since this is the way mobile
> IPv4
> > works
>
> Why?
>
Please have a look at RFC2002. Mobile IP is indeed based on tunnels.
Departing from this model is not within the scope of this WG.

> On a related note. If the working group will only entertain work items
> that include tunneling, MIP messaging, etc., then that will limit
> any innovation of this group in the long term. Its a hard line (MIPv4/
> MIPv6 and
> nothing else). What happens if the carriers decide that MIP
> will never work and seek alternatives?
>
this is not a problem for us (hic et nunc).

> Should we simply keep working on
> say (lateral
> point) "ATM" in the hope that ATM one day get deployed to
> the desk top once the carriers 'get it'. (BTW, I don't
> mean to slur MIP by attaching its name to ATM - just
> to illustrate my point).
>
It is a very lateral point...

> > 3) the solution MUST NOT be based on host routing (missing this,
> requirement
>
> Your repeating yourself old chap.
>
>
No, unless you think
there's a one to one correspondence between 1 and 3.

> > 1) would be       violated)
> ?
>
Andrew, You must glue this to the end of the line above this
line in my original message, for your understanding.
Hope this satisfies your "?".


> > 6) During handoff it MUST be possible to transfer some info to the new
> FA.
>
> Only in the case of buffering and forwarding between FAs during handoff
> - does
> that motivate your comment? I must say  that all the explicit signaled
> seamless
> handoff proposals seem very complex - the exchange of "state" between
> FAs may not
> scale?
>
??? If the state scales, its transfer does too.

By the way, I was not talking about buffering.


Yours,


Alessio


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Pat Calhoun <pcalhoun@eng.sun.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Pat,

Sorry if I pushed the wrong buttons.  I'm not trying to
be discouraging or aggravating, just really wanting to
understand what the issues are.

>> Is there a mailing list for this proposed new working group?
>
> This is the result of the CRAPS BOF, but with a much more limited scope. The
> CRAPS mailing list will evolve to the new WG mailing list.

Could you post a pointer to the CRAPS mailing list for those
archive-averse among us?  (o.k.  I'm being lazy.)

>> I'm very curious about the proposed charter for this new working
>> group.  I also wonder whether considerations about Mobile IP would
>> be excluded from consideration within the new working group, in
>> order to "avoid competition".  If so, I think that would be a
>> terrific botch.
>
> Why would you want two WGs to work on Mobile IP? I believe that the Mobile IP
> WG chairs want to keep all Mobile IP related protocol development, and other
> non-tunneling mobility protocols would be in the new WG.

This is the heart of the matter.  Of course you are right that there
should not be two working groups standardizing the same protocols.
However, depending upon its charter, the new working group may end up
designing protocols that should be made to work well with Mobile IP.
That seems to me to indicate that some consideration should be given
to Mobile IP within the new working group, even if the new working
group does not work on Mobile IP.

There also might be some overlap with recent "seamless handover"
efforts from the IPv4 and IPv6 design teams.  Would the new working
group spend any focus on feature-specific context handover?

>> I notice your use of the term "micro-mobility".  Do you mean to
>> say mobility between multiple, homogenous network links?  Are
>> heterogeneous links excluded?  Is handover of interest?  Smooth
>> handover?  Fast handover?
>
> Sigh. Charlie, how about I make use of the term non-tunneling approaches
> instead?

It seems to me that both tunneling and non-tunneling approaches are
fair game in Mobile IP and in the new working group, so that does
not seem to be the dividing line.  Is source routing considered to
be tunneling?

Regards,
Charlie P.


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Date:         Tue, 3 Oct 2000 11:50:04 -0700
Reply-To: campbell@comet.columbia.edu
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Andrew T. Campbell" <campbell@comet.columbia.edu>
Organization: Center for Telecommunications Research
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@lucent.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" wrote:
>
> > > 1) the solution MUST NOT suck (for a definition of "suck",
> > >    consider the scalability of host based routing)
> >
> > Per-host routes in the "wireless access network" (not the Internet) are
> > required (in my estimation) for a number of reasons: basis
> > for fast handoff control, aggregated micro-QOS to the host, etc.
> >
> > CIP is a proponent of this approach and its highly scalable.
> >
> > Can you shine some light on your view? Its easy to say
> > 'not scalable' but please back that claim up?
> >
> >
> I can shed some light on the requirement:
>
> I don't want the solution to suck. One good example
> to give a gist of what I mean by "Suck" is observing
> the scalability of host routing. I generally come to the
> conclusion "It SUCKS!"

You still haven't explained your position.

I know per-host routes do not scale in the core
network. We al agree on that. And I'm not proposing that.

We are discussing edge networks - e.g., wireless access
networks.

We use per-host routing in Cellular IP access networks
for handoff control its very scalable.

Now why is the use of per-host routes in
such a setting unscalable?

Can you provide some insight.


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Date:         Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:43:34 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "campbell@comet.columbia.edu" <campbell@comet.columbia.edu>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> You still haven't explained your position.
>
> I know per-host routes do not scale in the core
> network. We al agree on that. And I'm not proposing that.
>
> We are discussing edge networks - e.g., wireless access
> networks.
>
In which case, I think host routing is not technically sound
for it is conflicting with the requirement to support Private addresses. And
it makes the AN inherenly non multiprotocol.
We want to support PPP.

> We use per-host routing in Cellular IP access networks
> for handoff control its very scalable.
>
>
I should have used "not Technically sound", instead...

Andrew, I'm not pointing at any scalability issues,
I just wanted to explain the meanung of a word. Is it clear now?


I'm sure it is.


alessio


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 12:00:10 2000
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From: Luca Salgarelli <lsalgarelli@BELL-LABS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <39D9FAF8.3E552D1E@iprg.nokia.com>; from charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
              on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 08:27:52AM -0700

Hi Pat and Charlie.

In my understanding, the whole discussion is starting to appear as a debate
about what can be considered "related to Mobile IP". I think that during
the re-chartering of the MIP WG, and seemingly the chartering of the new
WG, not enough attention has been paid to the specification of what this
means.

What is "related to Mobile IP"? A protocol that uses the same message
format? A protocol that uses some form of IP tunneling?

I would be very happy to see a new WG working on fast-handoffs exclusively.
However, I too have some doubts about being able to avoid duplication of
work between this new WG and the Mobile IP WG.

Luca

On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 08:27:52AM -0700, Charles E. Perkins wrote:
> Hello Pat,
>
> Sorry if I pushed the wrong buttons.  I'm not trying to
> be discouraging or aggravating, just really wanting to
> understand what the issues are.
>
> >> Is there a mailing list for this proposed new working group?
> >
> > This is the result of the CRAPS BOF, but with a much more limited scope. The
> > CRAPS mailing list will evolve to the new WG mailing list.
>
> Could you post a pointer to the CRAPS mailing list for those
> archive-averse among us?  (o.k.  I'm being lazy.)
>
> >> I'm very curious about the proposed charter for this new working
> >> group.  I also wonder whether considerations about Mobile IP would
> >> be excluded from consideration within the new working group, in
> >> order to "avoid competition".  If so, I think that would be a
> >> terrific botch.
> >
> > Why would you want two WGs to work on Mobile IP? I believe that the Mobile IP
> > WG chairs want to keep all Mobile IP related protocol development, and other
> > non-tunneling mobility protocols would be in the new WG.
>
> This is the heart of the matter.  Of course you are right that there
> should not be two working groups standardizing the same protocols.
> However, depending upon its charter, the new working group may end up
> designing protocols that should be made to work well with Mobile IP.
> That seems to me to indicate that some consideration should be given
> to Mobile IP within the new working group, even if the new working
> group does not work on Mobile IP.
>
> There also might be some overlap with recent "seamless handover"
> efforts from the IPv4 and IPv6 design teams.  Would the new working
> group spend any focus on feature-specific context handover?
>
> >> I notice your use of the term "micro-mobility".  Do you mean to
> >> say mobility between multiple, homogenous network links?  Are
> >> heterogeneous links excluded?  Is handover of interest?  Smooth
> >> handover?  Fast handover?
> >
> > Sigh. Charlie, how about I make use of the term non-tunneling approaches
> > instead?
>
> It seems to me that both tunneling and non-tunneling approaches are
> fair game in Mobile IP and in the new working group, so that does
> not seem to be the dividing line.  Is source routing considered to
> be tunneling?
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 12:07:53 2000
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From: "Andrew T. Campbell" <campbell@comet.columbia.edu>
Organization: Center for Telecommunications Research
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
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Phil:

Roberts Philip-qa3445 wrote:
>
> > On a related note. If the working group will only entertain work items
> > that include tunneling, MIP messaging, etc., then that will limit
> > any innovation of this group in the long term. Its a hard line (MIPv4/
> > MIPv6 and
> > nothing else). What happens if the carriers decide that MIP
> > will never work and seek alternatives? Should we simply keep working on
> > say (lateral
> > point) "ATM" in the hope that ATM one day get deployed to
> > the desk top once the carriers 'get it'. (BTW, I don't
> > mean to slur MIP by attaching its name to ATM - just
> > to illustrate my point).
> >
> > How else should be scope our work for acceptability by the
> > polit bureau ;-) May be the chairs can tell us what
> > assumptions to base our research on.
> >
> >
> The polit bureau?  Really, Andrew?

No offense - My comment is statirical.

Being Chair is a not a thankless job. Thanks.

>
> It's not the job of the chairs to tell people what to work on in their labs.
> Nor is it our job to tell vendors what to build or network operators what to
> buy and deploy.  If your research is so constrained by the charter of a
> single working group that's your problem not ours.
>
> It is however our job to help the working group set objectives and keep the
> work moving along to reach those objectives.   It's been pretty apparent for
> awhile that we've been entertaining research projects on a number of methods
> for handling mobility at every IETF meeting and it seems this often detracts
> from reaching our objectives of getting Mobile IP done.   We proposed
> consolidating the charter on the list and we didn't hear much that would
> give us the impression the working group as a whole didn't want this.
>
> Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 14:13:55 2000
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            <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.970164422.25195.pcalhoun@nasnfs.eng>
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From: Pete McCann <mccap@RESEARCH.BELL-LABS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Comments on
              draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi, all,

"pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM> (psc) writes:

>>
>>
>> 1).  Sec 1.2 says "MNs connect to FAs via direct, link layer connections.
> I disagree, this is not necessary nor desirable in all cases.  The
> FA in theory could gain access to "subtending" link layer info
> through a variety of mechanisms. Why must it be assumed that the FA
> is co-located with the link layer equipment?

psc> If there is another layer of abstraction, and the trigger makes
psc> it to the FA, then we are happy. I am not really sure that we
psc> need to go there in the document, but if you feel that strongly
psc> about it, I can add such text.

Right, the document just makes the "link layer connectivity" abstraction,
which means that MNs are link-layer addressable and reachable from the
FA.  How you actually implement that abstraction is another question,
and I don't see any need for the document to go deeper into it.

> 2).  In the discussion of the triggering mechanism.  FA handover
> candidates should be configurable and/or discoverable automagically,
> allowing active sets of overlapping coverage areas (more on this
> below).

psc> good because more is needed in order for me to decode your comment :)

It sounds like Phil is asking for the draft to support soft handoff.
I strongly disagree with this - soft handoff is a technology-specific
thing that should take place underneath Mobile IP.  The "proactive"
draft is designed with "hard handoff" between the FAs in mind.

>> 3).  In 1.2 "problems that must be addressed" section under (1).  Why worry
>> about
>> registration?   Can't we just go ahead and perform the handoff and
>> register in
>> parallel?  If the registration  fails then boot the MN, but get the
>> traffic going first
>> at all costs.

psc> exactly what our draft does. We simply listed the issues that we
psc> know of in that section. We could add a "Get data to new cell
psc> before registration", but it is covered elsewhere and if you
psc> notice, each one of those bullets has a corresponding section.

Right, I believe the draft provides exactly the "register in parallel"
solution.

>> 4).  In section 1.2 sub 3, we should allow bi-cast, and tri-cast to all the
>> candidate FAs that
>> were "discovered" as descibed in 2 above.  Gee, this is starting to
>> sound like
>> OBAST! :-)

psc> So you must like it, then :)

Again, we are not trying to reinvent soft handoff!  If you want to do
that in the new working group, go ahead, but it is underneath what we
are trying to accomplish.  We are adding mechanisms to support
fast hard handoff between two different network attachment points.

>> 5).  In sec 1.2 sub 6., mobile power consumption can be reduced by having
>> MORE
>> FAs listening and performing selection at the anchor FA.  Yikes, this
>> smells of
>> OBAST! :-)

psc> see above comment

See my above comments - this is not about frame selection!

>> 6).  In sec 2.1 the GFA in theory could be co-located with the one of the two
>> bi-casting
>> FAs.  This would reduce the box count (and this is what OBAST does
>> with its
>> call anchor).

psc> I agree, and we support both what we call anchor FA and GFA. We
psc> needed to support both of these modes to comply with the Regional
psc> Registration I-D.  Personally, I would prefer NOT to support GFA
psc> directly, but only the anchor mode. If a GFA is deployed in the
psc> network, it would be used by the anchor FA (not the new FA).

psc> IMHO, this would really simplify the I-D.

I also think that anchor is more important than GFA, and I'm glad we
support AFA and wouldn't mind removing GFA support.  However, given that
it's so trivial to support (just put the GFA address in the Update
message) and given that there is a constituency, I think it's best
to leave it in.

>> 7).  With respect to Movement detection, could we not generalize this
>> coverage
>> detection?  The MN knows its in the coverage are of a collection of
>> subnets
>> and can establish new FA relationships with each new subnet,
>> selectively
>> dropping the old FA relationships as that coverage disappears.  Why
>> can't
>> traffic be deliverec while registration is occuring?  Presumably the
>> MN already
>> has connections with other hosts that are valid.

psc> Not sure I understand your comment, because the way I read it, the draft
psc> already does this.

Again, Phil is trying to do soft handoff in the framework of our draft.
Our draft is intended for hard handoff.  We do not assume that the MN has
the ability to talk to more than one FA at any given moment - in other
words, the FA is behind the frame selector.  I do not think other
approaches make sense.

>> 8).  If a new link layer is detected by a MN it could tell its current FA
>> about it
>> and the FA would know about all valid hand off candidates for that link
>> type
>> due to hand off candidate discovery as described in 2 above.

psc> and this information is sent in the air interface message, right? Are you
psc> proposing that this also has to be sent in the layer 3 (Mobile IP) message?

The "trigger" for the handoff could be based on power measurements as Phil
states - but that's a link-layer mechanism, and I don't think we should go
extending Mobile IP with a candidate list and/or power measurements.  That's
the job of the link layer.

>> //BEGIN (:-))
>> For those of you born after about 1980,  Phil is starting to sound like a
>> piece of vinyl with grooves encoded with music that would often get  cross
>> threaded causing the needle to play the same grooves of music over and over
>> again. //END (:-))

psc> Yeah, and I had to trash all my vinyls about 6 months ago.... :)

>>
>> 9).  It would not take much of nudge to make this thing work with a
>> make-before
>> break capability, then I would be happy and probably shut up!  Do you
>> want
>> me take a stab at this?

psc> Please do!

I would object to attempts to solve the soft handoff problem with this
draft.  It is intended for network-layer handoff, not link-layer handoff.

>> 10).  In section 3.1, To avoid ping-ponging we can use the trick CDMA uses.
>> USE MAKE BEFORE BREAK, and add and drops multiple simultaneously
>> bi-casted, tri-casted call legs!  Then thresholds can be added.  You
>> can
>> make decisions like, gee statistically, this particular link layer
>> isn't buying
>> me squat anymore, i.e. I don't use the packets coming from that link
>> layer
>> so that active leg can be dropped.

psc> but our I-D already does this, right? What is missing?

No, our draft does not do this, and shouldn't.  We assume that a
handoff takes place between two FAs connected to two different radio
access networks.  This is a hard handoff with no make-before-break
support, which contrary to popular belief, is NOT supported by today's
cdma air interfaces.

>> 11).  I take objection to including section 9.0-9.2.  All link layers should
>> be addressed
>> in generalities with maybe a distinction between fixed and wireless
>> being allowed.
>> Of course I am not a fan of the MIER approach at all.

psc> Whether MIER is good or not, it is irrelevant. We have limited
psc> address space, and MIER allows us to conserve some space. What,
psc> exactly, would you prefer to see in sections 9.0-9.2?

The link-layer address can be used as an opaque identifier, and
doesn't need to be understood by the FA, so the protocol is not
link-layer specific.  We just need to maintain a type space to
keep the identifiers unique across different technologies.  If
you have another technology in mind speak up and we can start to
fill in the type space.

-Pete


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From: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi all,

I am happy to see that we are finally starting to
identify the key concerns about the mobile IP WG
and the fast-handoff spinoff-WG (for lack of a better
name).  All boils down to defining clear charters
for the mobile IP WG and for the fast handoff
spinoff-WG.  There is clearly much confusion still
to be cleared before we get to that point.

I absolutely agree that the mobile IP WG needs to
focus its charter to make progress.  The WG chairs
needed to do something to make this happen and
they should be applauded for recognizing this
need and taking some action. Taking fast-handoff
work off the WG charter is a very sensible solution
but it raised the following questions:
  a) what is and what isn't fast-handoff work?
  b) what is a reasonable home for the fast-handoff
    work within the IETF?
  c) how do we manage the dependencies of fast handoff
    work on the evolving Mobile IP work? (i.e., how
    do we handle the coupling between these two WG's
    avoiding redundancy and other potential problems?)

Many of us that have been following the mobileip WG
are puzzled by all these questions.  Thanks to Pat
Calhoun for pointing us to the CRAPS mailing list and
for informing us of the plans to get a micro-mobility
WG started. This helps answer question (b). Now how
can we initiate some healthy, open and technically
sound discussions aimed at getting to the heart of
these charter-setting problems?

Sandy


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 14:42:00 2000
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Date:         Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:39:50 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> Now how
> can we initiate some healthy, open and technically
> sound discussions aimed at getting to the heart of
> these charter-setting problems?
>
>
>
It is my understanding that we have no such issue,
since everything is clear in the mobile IP WG at
this stage.

If it is not clear what is going to happen in
other yet to be chartered WGs or whether they'll overlap
with MIP WG, probably that would be better discussed on other
mailing lists, outside this WG.

What we need to do here is to solve technical
issues in front of the house based on the work
of 2 distinct task forces that have been openly
managed by the WG chairs.




alessio


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 14:49:26 2000
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Reply-To: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> Hi all,
>
Hi Sandy,


> I am happy to see that we are finally starting to
> identify the key concerns about the mobile IP WG
> and the fast-handoff spinoff-WG (for lack of a better
> name).  All boils down to defining clear charters
> for the mobile IP WG and for the fast handoff
> spinoff-WG.  There is clearly much confusion still
> to be cleared before we get to that point.
>
> I absolutely agree that the mobile IP WG needs to
> focus its charter to make progress.  The WG chairs
> needed to do something to make this happen and
> they should be applauded for recognizing this
> need and taking some action. Taking fast-handoff
> work off the WG charter is a very sensible solution
> but it raised the following questions:
>   a) what is and what isn't fast-handoff work?
>   b) what is a reasonable home for the fast-handoff
>     work within the IETF?
>   c) how do we manage the dependencies of fast handoff
>     work on the evolving Mobile IP work? (i.e., how
>     do we handle the coupling between these two WG's
>     avoiding redundancy and other potential problems?)
>
The mobile IP working group is not taking fast handoff from its charter.
We've consolidated the charter to consider mobile IP based approaches only
and we hope to end up with two approaches to doing fast handoff based on
mobile IP - one for v4 and one for v6.  The other working group that is
being proposed may investigate alternate approaches that are not based on
mobile IP.


> Many of us that have been following the mobileip WG
> are puzzled by all these questions.  Thanks to Pat
> Calhoun for pointing us to the CRAPS mailing list and
> for informing us of the plans to get a micro-mobility
> WG started. This helps answer question (b). Now how
> can we initiate some healthy, open and technically
> sound discussions aimed at getting to the heart of
> these charter-setting problems?
>
I'm pretty happy with the charter that mobile IP has and I haven't heard a
lot of complaints about our charter that make me think that "many" are
puzzled.  Pat's working hard to get a charter that the IESG is happy with.
Why are you confused?


> Sandy
>
Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 15:19:48 2000
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From: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi Phil,

> The mobile IP working group is not taking fast handoff from its charter.
> We've consolidated the charter to consider mobile IP based approaches only
> and we hope to end up with two approaches to doing fast handoff based on
> mobile IP - one for v4 and one for v6.  The other working group that is
> being proposed may investigate alternate approaches that are not based on
> mobile IP.

In my mind, fast-handoff = micro-mobility.  In your
definition,  fast handoff = (some mechanism based on
Mobile IP) whereas micro-mobility = (some mechanism
not based in Mobile IP).  Is this correct? If so,
can you explain what are the necessary conditions for
a mechanism to be classified as being "based on
Mobile IP"?  This is too vague.

> I'm pretty happy with the charter that mobile IP has and I haven't heard a
> lot of complaints about our charter that make me think that "many" are
> puzzled.

In making this statement, I took the liberty of
speaking for a number of people that have verbally
expressed their confusion to us.

> Pat's working hard to get a charter that the IESG is
> happy with.

I'm fully behind this.  Is there somewhere where we
can keep informed of the status of this effort without
bugging Pat with email probes?

Sandy


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 15:29:58 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Sandy Thuel <thuel@lucent.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> Hi Phil,
>
Hi Sandy,

> > The mobile IP working group is not taking fast handoff from its charter.
> > We've consolidated the charter to consider mobile IP based approaches
> only
> > and we hope to end up with two approaches to doing fast handoff based on
> > mobile IP - one for v4 and one for v6.  The other working group that is
> > being proposed may investigate alternate approaches that are not based
> on
> > mobile IP.
>
> In my mind, fast-handoff = micro-mobility.  In your
> definition,  fast handoff = (some mechanism based on
> Mobile IP) whereas micro-mobility = (some mechanism
> not based in Mobile IP).  Is this correct? If so,
> can you explain what are the necessary conditions for
> a mechanism to be classified as being "based on
> Mobile IP"?  This is too vague.
>
No this isn't correct.  Well, the part about what's in your mind is correct
I guess.  Fast handoff can be done a number of ways.  The mobile IP working
group is working on it in the context of Mobile IP.  If someone somewhere
has another way they want to do it that's fine and I think Pat has said the
working group he's working on will be welcoming proposals.  The problem as I
see it is that Mobile IP as it's currently defined will have trouble
completing a "handoff" in time to keep from noticing a glitch in service if
it's being used to support a realtime service.  The efforts underway here
are an attempt to improve that situation.   I'm sorry if you think saying
something is "based on Mobile IP" is too vague.  In the past on this list I
tried to say we wanted to use existing mechanisms defined for Mobile IP to
solve this problem.   Other people working on it don't seem to have a
problem understanding it so I'm not sure exactly what I need to explain.


> > I'm pretty happy with the charter that mobile IP has and I haven't heard
> a
> > lot of complaints about our charter that make me think that "many" are
> > puzzled.
>
> In making this statement, I took the liberty of
> speaking for a number of people that have verbally
> expressed their confusion to us.
>
OK, that's fine.  Maybe if they'd express their confusion to the list it
would be more productive?


> > Pat's working hard to get a charter that the IESG is
> > happy with.
>
> I'm fully behind this.  Is there somewhere where we
> can keep informed of the status of this effort without
> bugging Pat with email probes?
>
Don't know.  Pat?

> Sandy
>
Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 16:04:41 2000
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Reply-To: Basavaraj.Patil@NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Basavaraj Patil <Basavaraj.Patil@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fast Handoff v4 archives available
X-cc:         campbell@comet.columbia.edu
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Andrew,

Now that I understand your concerns, let me see
if I can address them.

>
>Pat and Basavaraj:
>
>First, my observations may be completely
>unfounded since I have not the experience
>of the design team.
>

The archives provide a good insight into the
discussions of the design team. So go ahead
and delve into the archives.

>While I am not party to the process (and as Pat
>points out its easy to say "free beer") I had
>greater expectations given the flurry of
>activity, ideas and IDs in this space, and the number
>of real systems that have been built
>and experience gained with.
>

I am not sure what your expectations were, but
you still have the opportunity to express your
opinions and problems with the proposals of the
design team.


>Let me briefly explain my knee jerk
>reaction.
>
>I think there are a number of conclusions one can
>draw from reading the archive and the ID on a
>technical level and from a process point of
>view.
>
>Regards the process: I thought the idea was to
>come up with a set of requirements, then a strawman proposal
>that sort consensus and met the requirements?
>

The idea to create a design team was to speed up
the process of getting an I-D with input from most
of the people who had an opinion or an idea about
handoffs.
The design team creation was well advertised at the
last IETF and anyone who wanted to contribute to the
effort was welcome to participate in the design team.

>(Reading between the lines from the archive)
>
>It looks like the starting point was
>too narrow?
>

The scope of the effort was discussed at IETF48
and presented to the WG. I do not know if the
scope was completely understood by all, but I
do not think of it as being narrow. Based on the
milestone (Dec 00) we had to have focus.


>It looks like the output from the design team
>resulted in deltas to existing IDs? (Why are these
>two IDs technically superior to others?).
>

The output of the design team is essentially a consensus
document(s).
No claims of technical superiority to other I-Ds
are claimed for the design team outputs. Please
feel free to comment and disagree with the results.
The intent of publishing the docs to the WG is to
initiate a discussion on the solution being presented.

>It looks like the process and results are
>narrow? Both IDs are complex and coupled far too closely to
>the 3G mindset/RANview: 3GPP2 air interface
>is only one type of cellular technology and
>cellular is only one type of wireless network, etc.
>

I think the process was quite open and focused. It's
now upto the WG members to raise concerns and issues.
The issue that you raise here is I guess your opinion
and hence should be addressed to the design team.

>In addition, weeding out some IDs because
>they didn't support tunneling (e.g., Hawaii)
>or MIP messaging (e.g., CIP), etc.
>was a bad call in a process that should
>have been open and inclusive and now looks
>like on the surface to have preselected two IDs
>(i.e., fast handoff/ proactive IDs)
>that have not been proven "better" than others.
>

The design team had a set of guidelines that they
worked under. Ultimately the "better" solution will
prevail. The reasons for not considering Hawaii and
CIP are based on changes to the charter.

>Again, I could be way off here on my reading
>of events.
>
>Finally, I still firmly believe that Mobile IP
>will not be widely deployed until
>efficient handoff and paging are incorporated.
>I just don't think we have moved very far
>forward on this.
>

You believe the solution proposed by the design team
is not efficient?

>So I'm very supportive of the work but
>surprised at the output.
>

Thank you. Hope to see you provide comments and input
to the design team output.

>Best,
>Andrew

-Basavaraj


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From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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Hi Sandy,


> > The mobile IP working group is not taking fast handoff from its charter.
> > We've consolidated the charter to consider mobile IP based approaches
> only
> > and we hope to end up with two approaches to doing fast handoff based on
> > mobile IP - one for v4 and one for v6.  The other working group that is
> > being proposed may investigate alternate approaches that are not based
> on
> > mobile IP.
>
> In my mind, fast-handoff = micro-mobility.  In your
> definition,  fast handoff = (some mechanism based on
> Mobile IP) whereas micro-mobility = (some mechanism
> not based in Mobile IP).  Is this correct? If so,
> can you explain what are the necessary conditions for
> a mechanism to be classified as being "based on
> Mobile IP"?  This is too vague.
>
        => I was guessing that's what was on your mind, may I ask why
        fast handoff = micromobility ?
        If we can achieve the performance targets that we're aiming for
        using MIP and some extensions wouldn't that be better and much less
        complex than inventing new protocols ? Let alon saving years of IETF
work ?

        In the second session for MIP WG in Pittsburgh, Andrew Campbell
mentioned
        that he was a co-author on a paper that did an evaluation /
comparison of the various
        mobility management schemes. I've read that paper, and on the
handoff issue, it was
        concluded that there were no significant differences between HMIP,
CIP and HAWAII.
        Andrew also mentioned that in is presentation.
        I may also add that the simulations in that paper did not consider
the Fast Handoffs
        draft (draft-elmalki- ...) which adds improvements to standard HMIP.

        So when I hear this direct association between micro mobility and
fast handoffs, I get
        a bit confused.




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Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Sandy, </FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; The mobile IP working group is =
not taking fast handoff from its charter.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; We've consolidated the charter =
to consider mobile IP based approaches only</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; and we hope to end up with two =
approaches to doing fast handoff based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; mobile IP - one for v4 and one =
for v6.&nbsp; The other working group that is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; being proposed may investigate =
alternate approaches that are not based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; mobile IP.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In my mind, fast-handoff =3D =
micro-mobility.&nbsp; In your</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">definition,&nbsp; fast handoff =3D =
(some mechanism based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mobile IP) whereas micro-mobility =3D =
(some mechanism</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">not based in Mobile IP).&nbsp; Is =
this correct? If so,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">can you explain what are the =
necessary conditions for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">a mechanism to be classified as being =
&quot;based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mobile IP&quot;?&nbsp; This is too =
vague.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=3D&gt; I was =
guessing that's what was on your mind, may I ask why</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fast handoff =3D =
micromobility ? </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If we can achieve =
the performance targets that we're aiming for </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">using MIP and some =
extensions wouldn't that be better and much less</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">complex than =
inventing new protocols ? Let alon saving years of IETF work ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In the second =
session for MIP WG in Pittsburgh, Andrew Campbell mentioned </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that he was a =
co-author on a paper that did an evaluation / comparison of the =
various</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">mobility management =
schemes. I've read that paper, and on the handoff issue, it was </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">concluded that =
there were no significant differences between HMIP, CIP and =
HAWAII.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Andrew also =
mentioned that in is presentation. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I may also add that =
the simulations in that paper did not consider the Fast Handoffs =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">draft =
(draft-elmalki- ...) which adds improvements to standard HMIP. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">So when I hear this =
direct association between micro mobility and fast handoffs, I =
get</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">a bit confused. =
</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 18:22:25 2000
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Date:         Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:19:04 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
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From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <000f01c02d6c$d1a40880$72f0b487@dnrc.belllabs.com>

> > Pat's working hard to get a charter that the IESG is
> > happy with.
>
> I'm fully behind this.  Is there somewhere where we
> can keep informed of the status of this effort without
> bugging Pat with email probes?
>

My understanding is that the charter is now complete, and it is scheduled for
the next IESG telechat. As soon as I hear anything, I will send the info to
this list (and the craps list which will be renamed to follow the new WG name).
 PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 18:45:23 2000
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Hi Phil and Basavaray,

I have been a (passive) member of the MIP list for many years and was
also surprised by the lack of discussions preceding the charter
reorientation.
With a list as large as the MIP list, I saw no need to add "I agree too"
comments
to messages that disagreed with the narrow rescoping of the wg without
clear
discussions of the decision criteria. The comments went unanswered or
there
was little attempt to answer them.

If the objective is to finish off the base work on the MIPv4 and v6
protocols as they stand today, close the wg and deal with other
mobility issues in new wgs, that is OK. Is there a desire/policy to not
have wg:s active for too long? If the wg is still open to dealing with
extensions to MIP, then criteria have to be a lot more specific.

On the MIP charter posted at IETF I didn't see anything that mentions
handoff
at all, except the last milestone which talks about both intra and
inter-domain
handoff. How some low latency handoff solutions are OK to work on while
others are not
is a mystery to me. Cutting out certain IDs just before soliciting input
for problems
they address, was not very elegant.

Let's continue the work on making the MIP based mobility solution better
so that it will become widely deployed and not just be a solution of
last resort.

...Erik

Ps. I am not one among those people that have previously expressed
concerns to Sandy.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct  3 23:03:14 2000
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Message-ID:  <20001004112723.2255.YHASH@mcs.mt.nec.co.jp>
Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:50:57 +0900
Reply-To: HASHIMOTO Yukio <yhash@MCS.MT.NEC.CO.JP>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: HASHIMOTO Yukio <yhash@MCS.MT.NEC.CO.JP>
Organization: NEC NETWORKS
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Mobile IP Simulation
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi. Youngjune.

I am now using OPNET 6.0.
I don't know if the latest version, OPNET 7 has IPv6 and Mobile IP
models, but OPNET supports GUI guided programming and a strong debugger.
(To make protocol, you just need to make graphical transition diagrams)
(To connect 2 nodes, you just need to connect them with your mouse)

I feel much easier on OPNET rather than ns-2 because I am not good at
programming, ns was hard to learn for me.

If you are a strong programmer, ns-2 may provide almost everything you
want to do, if not, I recommend OPNET because of its well documented
references and easy programming.

I heard that the latest version of OPNET supports multi processor
enviroment. (One simulation job is shared by multiple processors. it
causes faster simulation, I think)

--
HASHIMOTO, Yukio           yhash@mcs.mt.nec.co.jp
                    System Development Department
                         Mobile Networks Division
                                     NEC NETWORKS
Tel. +81-3-3798-4624   ext. 116-3240
FAX. +81-3-3798-4626


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 03:15:03 2000
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From: a_z56@YAHOO.COM
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] E-Mail Services
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To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 04:03:46 2000
Received: from standards.nortelnetworks.com (h16s32a234n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.234.32.16])
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Received: from frankie [203.198.151.44] by udomain.com.hk (SMTPD32-5.05) id
          AD0B183013A; Wed, 04 Oct 2000 15:19:55 +0800
X-Priority: 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=XX4D7D4C1C-01614D7DXX
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-ID:  <200010041521751.SM00356@frankie>
Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:51:26 +0800
Reply-To: info@heaveny.com
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Janiusli <janiusli@heaveny.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Multi colour plastic cover for mobile
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This is a Multipart MIME message.

--XX4D7D4C1C-01614D7DXX
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Heaveny Group Company Limited
300900

Dear Sirs,

How are you?  Hope this email will find you happy.

As you know, we always try to develop new & potential mobile phone
accessories to our valuable customers.  This time, we would like to
introduce our new products to you..............

1. Multi colour plastic cover for mobile   usd 0.50/1000pcs/model

Model avalable:
8210/3210/5110/gd90/6150/788/c25/c35/3688v/788
Colour:
red/yellow/green/transparent/blue.....


If you are interested in the above products, please do not hesiteate
to contact the undersign.   We will reply you ASAP.

We are looking forward to hearing from you and serving you again soon.



With our best regards,
Janius Li
Heaveny Group Company Limited
Room 504-5, Technology Plaza
29-35 Sha Tsui Road
Tsuen Wan, Hong Kong
Tel:  852-24981617
Fax: 852-24981565

Email: janiusli@heaveny.com

URL: http://www.heaveny.com

(If email :Please reply to janiusli@heaveny.com)
(If fax :Please reply to 852-24981565 )


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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 05:54:15 2000
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Message-ID:  <01C02DF8.20B8DFA0.henrik.levkowetz@abrandnewworld.se>
Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:42:07 +0200
Reply-To: "henrik@levkowetz.com" <henrik@levkowetz.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik.levkowetz@ABRANDNEWWORLD.SE>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Comments on
              draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tuesday, October 03, 2000 20:12, Pete McCann [SMTP:mccap@RESEARCH.BELL-LABS.COM] wrote:

> >> 11).  I take objection to including section 9.0-9.2.  All link layers should
> >> be addressed
> >> in generalities with maybe a distinction between fixed and wireless
> >> being allowed.
> >> Of course I am not a fan of the MIER approach at all.
>
> psc> Whether MIER is good or not, it is irrelevant. We have limited
> psc> address space, and MIER allows us to conserve some space. What,
> psc> exactly, would you prefer to see in sections 9.0-9.2?
>
> The link-layer address can be used as an opaque identifier, and
> doesn't need to be understood by the FA, so the protocol is not
> link-layer specific.  We just need to maintain a type space to
> keep the identifiers unique across different technologies.  If
> you have another technology in mind speak up and we can start to
> fill in the type space.

I agree.  I'm concerned, however, that the octet sub-type may be insufficient.
It may need to distinguish between not only different wireless transmission
technologies, but also between the same technology applied in different
frequency bands. -- An alternative is of course to express link-layer address
formats in such a manner that it comprises both band and address information,
when the technology itself doesn't have an address scheme that lets you derive
the frequency band from the link layer address.  Then the LLA field in 9.0
would actually be something more than a simple link layer address.

        Regards,
                Henrik


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 06:47:19 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:35:29 -0400
Reply-To: iesg@ietf.org
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address field found and
              ignored.
From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Last Call: IP Mobility Support for IPv4,
              revised to Proposed Standard
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

The IESG has received a request from the IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile
Hosts Working Group to consider IP Mobility Support for IPv4, revised
<draft-ietf-mobileip-rfc2002-bis-03.txt> as a Proposed Standard.

The intent is for this document to replace RFC2002, currently a Proposed
Standard.

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send any comments to the
iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by October 18, 2000.

Files can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mobileip-rfc2002-bis-03.txt


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 08:34:03 2000
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Reply-To: henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Henry Haverinen <henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] The use of existing authorization infrastructures
              with Mobile IP/
              AAA
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi all,

In summary, I propose the following additions to
draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt in this mail.

1. Two new rules for FA behavior when receiving the AMA
   Command in response to the AMR Command:

   a) If the AMA Command doesn't contain a MIP-Reg-Reply AVP,
      the FA must forward the Reg.Request in question
      to the HA itself.
   b) If the AMA Command includes the Result-Code AVP
      set to an error, the FA sends the MN a Reg.Reply with an
      error code but nevertheless includes any AAA or key
      distribution extensions from the AMA Command.

2. One new rule for HA behaviour:

   If the HA receives a Registration Request that contains
   the MN-AAA Authentication extension, either relayed by a
   FA or directly from a MN that is registering a co-located
   care-of address, the HA may issue the AMR Command in order
   to authorize the Reg.Request. The AMR Command includes some
   new flag which tells the AAA server that it does not have to
   contact the home agent, and that the request came directly
   from the home agent.

---

The draft draft-haverinen-mobileip-gsmsim-00.txt describes how the
existing GSM authorization infrastructure can be leveraged to achieve
mobile user authorization for Mobile IP. The idea is not to use the
GSM radio access technology, but to show how GSM SIM authorization
could be used for Mobile IP authorization over any link layer, for
example on WLAN hot spots. I'm writing a new revision of the draft
which will fix the issues discussed on this mailing list and make the
protocol to use the Mobile IP AAA extensions, so that the mobility
agents don't need to be GSM SIM aware.

The general model of leveraging an existing large scale
authorization/charging infrastructure is very important because
building new authorization infrastructures from scratch is hard:
getting the necessary contracts and agreements in place takes effort
and time. GSM authorization infrastructure is just one example of
an existing large scale authorization infrastructure.  Another such
global infrastructure is the credit-card infra: e.g., consider
the following scenario: I travel to a new location, pay the local
ISP using my credit card, and continue to use Mobile IP with an HA
in my home ISP.

In my opinion, any MIP/AAA proposal should be able to easily support
use of existing authorization infrastructures because it will greatly
speed up deployment of Mobile IP. However, the current MIP/AAA drafts
(e.g., draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt) have a couple of
assumptions that do not support such authorization. The important
aspect is that when existing authorization infrastructures are used,
HA and AAAH are not necessarily under the same administrative control,
and are not co-located. They are probably not even close to each
other.

Let's use the term AAAH to denote the AAA server that can authorize
the user, and probably charge/bill the user where necessary. In the
GSM SIM case, the AAAH is the Authentication Centre (AuC) which
resides deep inside the GSM network.

The foreign domain may have a local AAA network which includes a AAA
server that has an interface to the GSM network. In this case, the
local AAA network is able to reach the AAAH but the AAA network isn't
able to reach the home agent, as the current MIP/AAA drafts assume.
Suppose that a FA issues the DIAMETER AA-Mobile-Node-Request (AMR)
Command to authorize a Registration Request that uses GSM SIM. The
current view is that the the response from AAA (AA-Mobile-Node-Answer,
AMA Command) includes the Registration Reply from the HA in a
MIP-Reg-Reply AVP, which isn't possible in this case.

One way to support such authorization would be to add a new rule to
the operation of the FA: if the response from the AAA doesn't contain
the Registration Reply, the FA must forward the request to the HA
itself.

Besides the reachability of the HA through the AAA network, the GSM SIM
authorization breaks another assumption. A mobile node that
is using GSM SIM is not able to provide the visited domain with
complete yet unforgeable credentials without ever having been in touch
with its home domain, as required in draft-ietf-mobileip-aaa-reqs-04.txt.
This is because GSM SIM requires true challenge/response authentication
where AAAH generates the challenge. In other words, it takes two round
trips to authorize the MN. The AAA response in the first round trip
contains the challenge. The result code in the response indicates that
the user was not authorized.

True challenge/response could be supported by adding another
new rule to the operation of the FA: if the AAA responds to the
FA's authorization request with an error, the FA sends the MN a
Reg.Reply with an error code but nevertheless includes any AAA or key
distribution extensions from the AAA response. These extensions contain
the challenge. The MN is now able to send another Reg.Request for which
the authorization will be successful.

The same approach can also be used to for authorization in the home
domain. Both HA and FA can use the same AAAH (located elsewhere) for
authorizing the mobile user.

The HA may receive a Reg.Request (from a co-located MN or a FA) that
contains the MN-AAA Authentication extension. The HA could then pass
the request to the AAA network, for example with the DIAMETER AMR
Command, and the AAA network would respond with the AMA command, using
the AAAH on the GSM network. Here we probably need a new flag in the AAA
request that tells the AAA server that it does not have to contact the
home agent, and that the request came directly from the home agent.


Regards,
Henry

P.S. I'd like to acknowledge that Asokan (n.asokan@nokia.com)
has contributed a lot in these ideas and in this mail. Many thanks!


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From: Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.

- Muhammad Jaseemuddin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> To:   rap@iphighway.com
> Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> To: IETF-Announce: ;
> CC: rap@iphighway.com
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
>
> --NextPart
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>
>
>       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
>       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
>       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>       Pages           : 14
>       Date            : 03-Oct-00
>
> Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> registration messages.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> username
> "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We have submitted a =
draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The announcement is attached =
below. We will appreciate any comments. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">- Muhammad =
Jaseemuddin</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
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<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
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<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To: IETF-Announce: ;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">CC: rap@iphighway.com</FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Reply-to: =
Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: I-D =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 =
-0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sender: =
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">--NextPart</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A New Internet-Draft is available from =
the on-line Internet-Drafts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">directories.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Title&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : COPS usage for Mobile IP =
(MIP)</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : M. =
Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Pages&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 14</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : 03-Oct-00</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mobile IP is a protocol that is used =
to achieve transparent routing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of IP packets to a mobile node. A =
mobile node obtains a care-of-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">address in the foreign network and =
registers that address with the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">home agent. The home agent as well as =
the foreign agent can apply </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">policies to the mobile node =
registration. This draft defines COPS </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">[1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It =
describes how COPS is used to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">control Mobile IP registration based =
on policies. It defines the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">interactions between the PEP and the =
PDP to handle Mobile IP </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">registration messages. It also =
provides a guideline for mobility </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">agents on how to use this COPS client =
with regards to the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">registration messages.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A URL for this Internet-Draft =
is:</FONT>
<BR><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00=
.txt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-c=
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Message-ID:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.970667940.3674.pcalhoun@nasnfs.eng>
Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:59:00 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Comments on
              draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02.txt
X-To:         "henrik@levkowetz.com" <henrik@levkowetz.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <01C02DF8.20B8DFA0.henrik.levkowetz@abrandnewworld.se>

>
> I agree.  I'm concerned, however, that the octet sub-type may be
> insufficient. It may need to distinguish between not only different wireless
> transmission technologies, but also between the same technology applied in
> different frequency bands. -- An alternative is of course to express
> link-layer address formats in such a manner that it comprises both band and
> address information, when the technology itself doesn't have an address
> scheme that lets you derive the frequency band from the link layer address.
> Then the LLA field in 9.0 would actually be something more than a simple
> link layer address.
>
OK, but would be, I assume, for a very specific technology, right? So, when
that technology's LLA is defined, it would include the band. In the CDMA2000
part, we also encode the RLP identifier, which is not part of the MAC address
itself. However, other technologies don't have such extensibility.

So, do you have specific text to propose?

PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 10:11:15 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:06:48 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>,
              alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <E1A4B2CC91EBD1118A510000F80836F802BC2084@zwdld002.ca.nortel.com>

Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if you don't mind, I'll take off the
white gloves (not that I wear them *that* often).

Why?

The IETF has already decided that network access (and specifically Mobile IP)
authentication, authorization and accounting is done through the protocol that
was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a potential protocol, and did not succeed.
 So may I ask why you insist on opening up the can of worms all over again?
Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around been enough?

Am I missing something obvious? Or are some COPS people refusing to let the
AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion in the marketplace the ultimate goal?

PatC

> We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
>
> - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > To:   rap@iphighway.com
> > Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> >
> > --NextPart
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories.
> >
> >
> >       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> >       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> >       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >       Pages           : 14
> >       Date            : 03-Oct-00
> >
> > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > registration messages.
> >
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > username
> > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> >       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> >
> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >
> >
> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> >
> > Send a message to:
> >       mailserv@ietf.org.
> > In the body type:
> >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> >
> > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> >       MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> >       feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> >       command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> >       a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
> >       exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> >       "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> >       up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> >       how to manipulate these messages.
> >
> >
> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > Internet-Draft.
> >
> >
> > --NextPart
> > Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"
> >
> > --OtherAccess
> > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> >       access-type="mail-server";
> >       server="mailserv@ietf.org"
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain
> > Content-ID:   <20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org>
> >
> > ENCODING mime
> > FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > --OtherAccess
> > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> >       name="draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt";
> >       site="ftp.ietf.org";
> >       access-type="anon-ftp";
> >       directory="internet-drafts"
> >
> >
> > --OtherAccess--
> >
> > --NextPart--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 11:01:27 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

I thought the AAA working group had already eliminated COPS as a AAA
protocol.  If so, please explain why we should be considering COPS in MIP?


> ----------
> From:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> Reply To:     Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> Sent:         Wednesday, October 4, 2000 9:10 PM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
>
> - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> Sent:   Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> To:     rap@iphighway.com
> Subject:        I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> To: IETF-Announce: ;
> CC: rap@iphighway.com
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
>
> --NextPart
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>
>
>         Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
>         Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
>         Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>         Pages           : 14
>         Date            : 03-Oct-00
>
> Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> registration messages.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> username
> "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>         "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
> Send a message to:
>         mailserv@ietf.org.
> In the body type:
>         "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
>
> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>         MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>         feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>         command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>         a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> readers
>         exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>         "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>         up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
>         how to manipulate these messages.
>
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>
>
> --NextPart
> Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"
>
> --OtherAccess
> Content-Type: Message/External-body;
>         access-type="mail-server";
>         server="mailserv@ietf.org"
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Content-ID:     <20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org>
>
> ENCODING mime
> FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> --OtherAccess
> Content-Type: Message/External-body;
>         name="draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt";
>         site="ftp.ietf.org";
>         access-type="anon-ftp";
>         directory="internet-drafts"
>
>
> --OtherAccess--
>
> --NextPart--
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 11:13:51 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Proposal for new Destination Options placement
X-To:         Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@inria.fr>
X-cc:         IPng Working Group <ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Francis et al.,

I am writing this note in response to your note, appended after
the main body of this note.  I have been studying the issues
relevant to the placement of the Home Address option and the
Binding Update option, in preparation for making a new revision
for Mobile IPv6.  It is a tough problem.

I agree with you that the existing choices for ordering AH
and Destination Options are not sufficient.  In my mind,
the first and most serious error, that affects the placement
of the Home Address option, is it has to go before AH, but
there is no need at all for it to be processed by the
intermediate routing points of a routing header.

Therefore, I'd like to suggest that in the Mobile IPv6
specification, we enable the placement of Destination Options
after the Routing Header, but before the Fragment Header.
This will enable the correct placement of the Home Address
destination option, and it will greatly simplify any needed
firewall treatment.


Regards,
Charlie P.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Implementation Issues re MobileIP and IPSec
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:16:56 +0200
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   > => this point was signaled by me and others... The final document
   > is supposed to fix it.

     So, the care-of-address is used as the IP source address for the
   authentication calculations. Correct?

=> we need both the home and the care-of address, one will be in the
source address field, the other in the home address option.
But we have to wait for the final document to know the exact order
(ie. swapped (me) or not (Microsoft)).

   > => I disagree because you put more in "Binding Update option processing"
   > than it should be. In fact when you decode the BU you don't know if there
   > is an AH after or (the argument :-) a HA option.

     Now, I am confused ... Since we propose to put the BU in the 2nd
   Destination Options header, this problem wouldn't occur.

=> you can put the BU in the first/only DO header before the HA: you have
replaced "MUST include" by "MUST be before" which is far stronger... (*)
The only constraint in the order is there MUST be a DO header with
a HA option before the AH header, you can put the BU where you'd like
(before or after, in the same header than the HA or in an other one.
In my code I put it in the same header than the HA in the order which
gives the smallest length).

   By the time we get
   to the BU message, we have already processed the HA option (which MUST be in
   the 1st Destination Options header) and the AH (which MUST occur before the
   2nd Destination Options header).

=> the second MUST is yours and obviously is incorrect because I can implement
this with only one DO header...

   > I execute the BU only
   > when I see the upper layer header, the processing itself is restricted
   > to length/alignement checks.

     So, what would you say are the advantages of putting the BU in the 1st
   Destination Options header?

=> simpler, smaller, ...

   Or is it just convenience since only one of the
   Destination Options headers must be processed then?

=> of course it is convenience. But if you have an ESP header too
our firewall implementors want to have all DO headers in clear, ie
before the ESP. Then they convince me to keep the way I built the DO
header before IPsec introduction and just add some code which:
 - puts the AH after the DO header
 - supports DO headers (and DO themselves) in *any* order on input

     Could anybody working on the "final document" respond to this question?

=> I'll try to catch Dave Johnson who is here (IETF, mobileip 1st session).

   >    2. It should clarify which address, the mobile node's Home Address or
   >    care-of-address, must be used for the SA/SP lookup.
   >
   > => this is clearly specified in the I-D (home address must be used).

     Could you please point out the respective section?

=> section 10.2 (inbound processing must be symmetrical).
Beware that IKE rules are a bit hairy (but less than IKE itself :-).

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr,

PS *: to put the HA option after the BU option is a favorite in
the UNH mobile IPv6 test suite...


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 11:22:02 2000
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Reply-To: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Erik Anderlind <eanderlind@LUCENT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> ----------
> From:         Erik Anderlind
> Reply To:     Erik Anderlind
> Sent:         Wednesday, October 4, 2000 6:33 AM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
>
> Hi Phil and Basavaray,
>
Hi Erik,


> I have been a (passive) member of the MIP list for many years and was
> also surprised by the lack of discussions preceding the charter
> reorientation.
> With a list as large as the MIP list, I saw no need to add "I agree too"
> comments
> to messages that disagreed with the narrow rescoping of the wg without
> clear
> discussions of the decision criteria. The comments went unanswered or
> there
> was little attempt to answer them.
>
The working group, like all IETF working group, works on rough consensus.
If we only hear one objection to stop something or one proposal to start
something, it's kinda up to the chairs to make a judgement.   (This is kind
of a recurring issue for us).  So please speak up if you've got an opinion.


> If the objective is to finish off the base work on the MIPv4 and v6
> protocols as they stand today, close the wg and deal with other
> mobility issues in new wgs, that is OK. Is there a desire/policy to not
> have wg:s active for too long? If the wg is still open to dealing with
> extensions to MIP, then criteria have to be a lot more specific.
>
> On the MIP charter posted at IETF I didn't see anything that mentions
> handoff
> at all, except the last milestone which talks about both intra and
> inter-domain
> handoff.
>
Yes, that's where it is.

>  How some low latency handoff solutions are OK to work on while
> others are not
> is a mystery to me. Cutting out certain IDs just before soliciting input
> for problems
> they address, was not very elegant.
>
What exactly are you talking about?  Which IDs were cut out?


> Let's continue the work on making the MIP based mobility solution better
> so that it will become widely deployed and not just be a solution of
> last resort.
>
> ...Erik
>
Phil


> Ps. I am not one among those people that have previously expressed
> concerns to Sandy.
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 11:22:02 2000
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From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Implementation Issues re
              MobileIP and IPSec]
X-To:         Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@inria.fr>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello again Francis,

This is in further response to your note, appended below,
but regarding the placement of the Binding Update option.
I made two notes, because I thought that the IPng mailing
list would not be interested in this part.

The Binding Update, as you and others have mentioned, could
reasonably go either in the same Destination Options header
as the Home Address option, or after AH.  It seems to be a
matter of convenience.  The Binding Update option seems to
have less needs for protection against snooping than the IPv6
header.  In other words, if one wanted to protect the Binding
Update, then one would also want to protect the preceding
IPv6 header.  That implies to me that the main good
reason for requiring the Binding Update to go after AH,
except possibly for natural processing requirements.
On the other hand, the latter is a good reason!

I do see that we should make a definite specification for
particular placement of the Binding Update.

I would like to make the following proposal for discussion.

- Allow Home Address option to be placed after the routing
  header but before the fragment header (as mentioned earlier)
- Require Binding Update to occur after AH.

The cost is additional header bytes, but the benefit is
more natural header processing.  I think that we ought to
get this issue settled ASAP, with a specific placement, and then
try to get some mileage out of using header compression to squeeze
the bytes back out again.   Using header compression might be more
efficient if there are fewer possibilities for placement.

Regards,
Charlie P.


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Implementation Issues re MobileIP and IPSec
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 21:16:56 +0200
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   > => this point was signaled by me and others... The final document
   > is supposed to fix it.

     So, the care-of-address is used as the IP source address for the
   authentication calculations. Correct?

=> we need both the home and the care-of address, one will be in the
source address field, the other in the home address option.
But we have to wait for the final document to know the exact order
(ie. swapped (me) or not (Microsoft)).

   > => I disagree because you put more in "Binding Update option processing"
   > than it should be. In fact when you decode the BU you don't know if there
   > is an AH after or (the argument :-) a HA option.

     Now, I am confused ... Since we propose to put the BU in the 2nd
   Destination Options header, this problem wouldn't occur.

=> you can put the BU in the first/only DO header before the HA: you have
replaced "MUST include" by "MUST be before" which is far stronger... (*)
The only constraint in the order is there MUST be a DO header with
a HA option before the AH header, you can put the BU where you'd like
(before or after, in the same header than the HA or in an other one.
In my code I put it in the same header than the HA in the order which
gives the smallest length).

   By the time we get
   to the BU message, we have already processed the HA option (which MUST be in
   the 1st Destination Options header) and the AH (which MUST occur before the
   2nd Destination Options header).

=> the second MUST is yours and obviously is incorrect because I can implement
this with only one DO header...

   > I execute the BU only
   > when I see the upper layer header, the processing itself is restricted
   > to length/alignement checks.

     So, what would you say are the advantages of putting the BU in the 1st
   Destination Options header?

=> simpler, smaller, ...

   Or is it just convenience since only one of the
   Destination Options headers must be processed then?

=> of course it is convenience. But if you have an ESP header too
our firewall implementors want to have all DO headers in clear, ie
before the ESP. Then they convince me to keep the way I built the DO
header before IPsec introduction and just add some code which:
 - puts the AH after the DO header
 - supports DO headers (and DO themselves) in *any* order on input

     Could anybody working on the "final document" respond to this question?

=> I'll try to catch Dave Johnson who is here (IETF, mobileip 1st session).

   >    2. It should clarify which address, the mobile node's Home Address or
   >    care-of-address, must be used for the SA/SP lookup.
   >
   > => this is clearly specified in the I-D (home address must be used).

     Could you please point out the respective section?

=> section 10.2 (inbound processing must be symmetrical).
Beware that IKE rules are a bit hairy (but less than IKE itself :-).

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr,

PS *: to put the HA option after the BU option is a favorite in
the UNH mobile IPv6 test suite...


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 11:35:32 2000
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Message-ID:  <01C02E27.CA4BEE70.henrik.levkowetz@abrandnewworld.se>
Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:23:18 +0200
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik.levkowetz@ABRANDNEWWORLD.SE>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Comments on 
              draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02.txt
X-To:         "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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On Wednesday, October 04, 2000 15:59, pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [SMTP:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM] wrote:
> >
> > I agree.  I'm concerned, however, that the octet sub-type may be
> > insufficient. It may need to distinguish between not only different wireless
> > transmission technologies, but also between the same technology applied in
> > different frequency bands. -- An alternative is of course to express
> > link-layer address formats in such a manner that it comprises both band and
> > address information, when the technology itself doesn't have an address
> > scheme that lets you derive the frequency band from the link layer address.
> > Then the LLA field in 9.0 would actually be something more than a simple
> > link layer address.
> >
> OK, but would be, I assume, for a very specific technology, right? So, when
> that technology's LLA is defined, it would include the band. In the CDMA2000
> part, we also encode the RLP identifier, which is not part of the MAC address
> itself. However, other technologies don't have such extensibility.
>
> So, do you have specific text to propose?
>
> PatC

Yes, right.

I'd propose:'
      LLA

         Contains the Link Layer Address, or a composite of a Link
         Layer Address field and a radio band designation field for
         technologies where the same Link Layer Address may occur on
         multiple radio bands.
'

        Regards,
                Henrik


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 11:49:43 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

I guess this can't be done...

Is this the authors' understanding too, by now?


> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > > To:   rap@iphighway.com
> > > Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> > >
> > > --NextPart
> > >
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > directories.
> > >
> > >
> > >       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> > >       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> > >       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >       Pages           : 14
> > >       Date            : 03-Oct-00
> > >
> > > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > > registration messages.
> > >
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > > username
> > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > >       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > >
> > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > >
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > >
> > > Send a message to:
> > >       mailserv@ietf.org.
> > > In the body type:
> > >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > >
> > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > >       MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > >       feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > >       command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> > >       a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> readers
> > >       exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > >       "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> > >       up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> > >       how to manipulate these messages.
> > >
> > >
> > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > > Internet-Draft.
> > >
> > >
> > > --NextPart
> > > Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess
> > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > >       access-type="mail-server";
> > >       server="mailserv@ietf.org"
> > >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > > Content-ID:   <20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org>
> > >
> > > ENCODING mime
> > > FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess
> > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > >       name="draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt";
> > >       site="ftp.ietf.org";
> > >       access-type="anon-ftp";
> > >       directory="internet-drafts"
> > >
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess--
> > >
> > > --NextPart--
>


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From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "Mobility
              Support in IPv6"
              draft]
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello folks,

It seems that there are now multiple incompatible
interpretations of the specification within the
existing Internet Draft, that deals with making AH
computations when the Home Address option is present.

I would like to mandate (i.e., MUST) the simplest possible
strategy, to wit:

When calculating the AH checksum, the mobile node performs
the calculation with all data in place.  This means that,
during the calculation, the Care-of Address might be in the
Source IP address field of the IPv6 header, and then the home
address would be in the Home Address destination option.

Of course, this also means that the node receiving a packet
with AH will have to follow the same algorithm, which
basically just means not moving data fields at all.
The only complication comes when it is necessary to look up
the appropriate security association for processing either
AH or ESP.  That lookup, typically indexed by the
Source IP address of the IPv6 header, would instead have
to be indexed by the home address in the Home Address
destination option.  Since that destination option would
occur in the packet _before_ the security header,
processing is still very simple.

My belief is that this is the simplest solution and makes
for a really unambiguous specification, promoting both
interoperability and ease of processing as well as better
compatibility with existing specifications for the order
of options processing.

Comments will be appreciated.  A message which captures
a lot of the previous discussion is appended after the
main body of this note.  In the appended discussion, the
question is raised whether a node receiving the Home Address
option can easily change the way it looks up the security
associations to depend on data in the Home Address option
instead of the IPv6 header.  I have heard that this is
not a problem.  I do not know the code myself, so I will
rely on input from others who have the appropriate experience.

Regards,
Charlie P.




-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "Mobility Support in IPv6" draft
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:39:11 +0200
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr>
To: charliep@iprg.nokia.com
CC: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   My understanding is that the current specification makes it
   mandatory to copy the home address into the ip6_src field of
   the IPv6 header.  Swapping should not be performed.  Here,
   "replace" means "copy over".   I reckon that the current
   specification should be made unequivocal on this point.

=> I disagree. You need to protect both the source address and
the address in the home address option (they should be the care-of
and the home addresses of the mobile). If you consider a common
binding update then you can see why this is important.
 IMHO addresses must be swapped but there are two incompatible
ways to do this:
 - swap field contents (easy, simple but some people don't like this)
 - swap pointers (more difficult but keeps the packet read-only).
Someone must do the choice and write the result in the draft!

   ---- insert big logical break delimiter at this point ---------

   While thinking about the effects of this requirement, I found
   myself wondering why.  It seems like the natural processing
   for the mobile node, when creating the Authentication Header,
   would be to calculate the authentication data starting with
   the predictable fields of the IPv6 header and extensions with
   as little change as possible.

=> you should consider the receiving side for AH processing.
When the receiving side executes the home address option then
it updates the source address (the field itself (physical) and
the pointer to it (logical)). The AH is after then the source
address is supposed to be the home address when the AH is processed
and (the important point) when the security code looks for its
parameters.

   I would think that, typically, the IPv6 header already has the
   mobile node's Care-of Address inserted as the ip6_src field before
   the Authentication Header calculation is initiated.

=> it is not so clear and:
 - the security parameters lookup (SPD/SADB) is more important than
   the AH calculation itself and must be done with the home address.
 - the AH calculation has to deal with mobility anyway.

   Then, in order to make the spec work, the mobile node has
   to proceed as follows:
   - Put in its home address as ip6_src, temporarily
   - Do the AH thing
   - Restore its care-of address as ip6_src.
   This seems like a lot of extra work, and a very handy
   place to put bugs.

=> AH calculation is in general a very handy place to put bugs.
Mobility doesn't make things worse, it just justifies we keep AH (:-).

   What if we make it so that the recipient uses the address
   in the Home Address option to select the appropriate security
   association?

=> this is an important point. The current spec makes this easy
for the recipient which:
 - is the way AH processing is defined (cf routing header case)
 - puts the burden on the mobile node shoulders
 - works.

   I understand the current specification to be fashioned so that
   the recipient can select the security association based on the
   contents of the source IPv6 address in the IPv6 header.
   However, whether or not to actually CHANGE the fields,
   treating them as mutable,

=> swapping pointers is better for that (it was proposed by
Microsoft Research people who consider the packet as read-only)

   seems to introduce a lot of unnecessary specification difficulties
   that could be avoided.
   Changing the way that a security association is looked up
   seems a lot cheaper than copying and recopying data within
   the challenge data.

=> I am not convinced by your argument. In fact I am not convinced
by any argument for field or pointer swapping (:-)... Both are not
obviously right but this is a minor point: the real issue is to
deal with IKE (the draft proposal works, this is just a bit hard
to implement and very hard to configure).

   If everybody hates this idea, then just forget I mentioned it!

=> the only thing I really hate is to have no clear statement in
the current draft. It will make one half of secure mobile IPv6
implementations not interoperable with mine...

Thanks

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr

PS: another missing point in the current mobile IPv6 draft:
the home agent is a router then can have more than one address then
the draft should *accurately* specify what address the home agent
MUST use as the source address of tunneled packet (the answer is
obvious but a specification is better than common sense, don't forget
a paranoid mobile node will check the source address of tunneled packets).
(the similar issue for BA/BR is already in the mailing list archive
because it simply breaks sequence number check)


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 14:07:32 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:05:41 +0200
Reply-To: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approaches
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hello,

I am sending out a list of differences between the two
handoff drafts (draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02 and
draft-elmalki-mobileip-fast-handoffs-03) which Hesham and I
already sent out to the MIPv4 handoffs team. I hope it
will be useful for the WG's handoff discussions.

Regards,
Karim


Proactive Handoffs draft = draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02
Fast Handoffs draft = draft-elmalki-mobileip-fast-handoffs-03


1) The Fast Handoffs draft allows both the network and the
MN to control L3 handoffs just as normal Mobile IP (RFC2002).
The MN performs Mobile IP Registrations and is therefore in
control as to when and with which agent it registers. The
network is also in control since it may decide whether to
send the MN an agent advertisement to trigger the MN's
movement (without which the MN will not perform movement
detection and MIP Registration). The network may also
advertise but reject the MN's Registration and thus again
exercise control. In Proactive handoffs the MN has no control
over the handoff and may only react to the network-controlled
handoff after it has obtained L2 connectivity to the new FA
and starts receiving data from it. Thus the handoff
is forced on the MN and the MN may only react if and
when the new FA decides to advertise.

2) The Fast Handoffs draft allows the MN to register with
the new FA (or GFA) before it moves and before it obtains L2
connectivity to that new FA, thus anticipating the MN's
movement. By interacting with L2 it is possible for the
FA to synchronize such a registration with the cellular
network's mobility such that the new Registration is
completed before the MN is instructed to perform a handoff
at L2. Local HA functionality (GFA) is used to limit the
RTT for the MN's registration. In this way we potentially
eliminate the service disruption caused by L3 handoffs and
limit the MN's service disruption period to that imposed by
the specific L2.

3) The same amount of Registrations/Advertisement are sent/received
by an active MN using Proactive or Fast Handoffs for the support
of real-time services such as VoIP. The main difference is that
in Fast Handoffs the Registration is performed by the MN before
it performs a handoff to the new FA, while in Proactive handoffs
this is done after the MN has performed a handoff to the new
FA and once it is receiving traffic through the new FA.

4) It is not clear in the proactive approach how an intersystem
handoff is handled. For example a handoff occuring between two
different wireless technologies. If the proactive approach is
to be used for handoffs, and if the MN has a choice of two
different systems, it is not possible for the MN to choose which
FA it wants to be connected to (until after the MN has been handed
off to the new FA). Hence a handoff may result in connecting the
MN to a less preferred FA. This is especially true if the FAs
choose not to send agent advertisements for very long periods as
suggested by the draft. This situation will not arise in Fast
Handoffs.

5) The proactive draft states that a FA MAY choose to send an
Agent Advertisement to the MN after the handoff has taken place.
The length of time after which the advertisement is sent is
unclear. If simultaneous bindings are used (which is suggested by
the draft), this will result in long lifetimes for the
simultaneous bindings and consequently an inefficient use of
bandwidth since multiple copies of the same packet are transmitted
to FAs. In Fast Handoffs simultaneous bindings will have short
lifetimes in order to minimize bandwidth consumption.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 14:14:40 2000
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Message-ID:  <NEBBIAJKMGAFBLOHKLJKOEABCBAA.asingh1@email.mot.com>
Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:03:58 -0500
Reply-To: Ajoy Singh <asingh1@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Ajoy Singh <asingh1@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Comments on
              draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02.txt
X-To:         henrik@levkowetz.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Pat/All,
How about the idea of documenting the details of LLA encoding in some
informational draft ? If you like the
idea, we can come up with such a document and keep on adding new stuff based
on others' comments. This
will avoid frequent changes in proactive draft.
regards,
ajoy

I was just thinking of having an informational draft that can talk about the
details of LLA encoding for
different technologies. If everybody like the idea, we can start working on
this. This way we do not have
to provide these details in proactive draft.
regards,
ajoy

-----Original Message-----
From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
[mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Henrik
Levkowetz
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:23 AM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Comments on
draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02.txt


On Wednesday, October 04, 2000 15:59, pcalhoun@eng.sun.com
[SMTP:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM] wrote:
> >
> > I agree.  I'm concerned, however, that the octet sub-type may be
> > insufficient. It may need to distinguish between not only different
wireless
> > transmission technologies, but also between the same technology applied
in
> > different frequency bands. -- An alternative is of course to express
> > link-layer address formats in such a manner that it comprises both band
and
> > address information, when the technology itself doesn't have an address
> > scheme that lets you derive the frequency band from the link layer
address.
> > Then the LLA field in 9.0 would actually be something more than a simple
> > link layer address.
> >
> OK, but would be, I assume, for a very specific technology, right? So,
when
> that technology's LLA is defined, it would include the band. In the
CDMA2000
> part, we also encode the RLP identifier, which is not part of the MAC
address
> itself. However, other technologies don't have such extensibility.
>
> So, do you have specific text to propose?
>
> PatC

Yes, right.

I'd propose:'
      LLA

         Contains the Link Layer Address, or a composite of a Link
         Layer Address field and a radio band designation field for
         technologies where the same Link Layer Address may occur on
         multiple radio bands.
'

        Regards,
                Henrik


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 14:22:08 2000
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Message-ID:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.970682630.4403.glass@purol.east>
Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:03:50 -0400
Reply-To: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <DFF2EFB82ADBD311B4BB00508B6F0C5C0176D0B9@il27exm03.cig.mot.com>

> I thought the AAA working group had already eliminated COPS as a AAA
> protocol.  If so, please explain why we should be considering COPS in MIP?

    I know this is going to get dinged by many of the people I work with (on
this list, and in the office), but is there some reason the authors can't have
an individual submission for an informational RFC?  RFC2356 comes to mind (use
of SKIP FW traversal in Mobile IP), published by the mobile ip working group
in June 1998, after the decision of the IPSec WG (and Jeff Schiller) for
ISAKMP/Oakley as the IPSec protocol of choice.  If the authors want to work on
this, it doesn't have to be an official working group document (hence the name
d-jaseem-..., not d-i-mip-...) to get some review from mobile ip WG members
willing to read it (if any, and presuming it works).  If the authors want to
move it to anything more than informational, however, it seems likely to be
blocked by the IESG...

                              Cheers,
                                  Steve


> > ----------
> > From:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > Reply To:     Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > Sent:         Wednesday, October 4, 2000 9:10 PM
> > To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> > announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
> >
> > - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:   yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > Sent:   Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > To:     rap@iphighway.com
> > Subject:        I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> >
> > --NextPart
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories.
> >
> >
> >         Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> >         Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> >         Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >         Pages           : 14
> >         Date            : 03-Oct-00
> >
> > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > registration messages.
> >
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > username
> > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> >         "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> >
> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >
> >
> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> >
> > Send a message to:
> >         mailserv@ietf.org.
> > In the body type:
> >         "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> >
> > NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> >         MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> >         feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> >         command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> >         a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> > readers
> >         exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> >         "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> >         up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> >         how to manipulate these messages.
> >
> >
> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 14:22:08 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:08:06 -0700
Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya <bsarikaya_1999@YAHOO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Behcet Sarikaya <bsarikaya_1999@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fun a la mipv4 et mipv6
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Will the SCRAP WG accept only the contributions that
suck?
For a definition of 'suck' please refer to Alassio's
email and for a definition of SCRAP WG please refer to
PatC's email.

--behcet


=====
Behcet Sarikaya
Univ. of Aizu
Aizu, Japan

__________________________________________________
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 14:41:00 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:38:57 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

>     I know this is going to get dinged by many of the people I work with
> (on
> this list, and in the office), but is there some reason the authors can't
> have
> an individual submission for an informational RFC?  RFC2356 comes to mind
> (use
> of SKIP FW traversal in Mobile IP), published by the mobile ip working
> group
> in June 1998, after the decision of the IPSec WG (and Jeff Schiller) for
> ISAKMP/Oakley as the IPSec protocol of choice.  If the authors want to
> work on
> this, it doesn't have to be an official working group document (hence the
> name
> d-jaseem-..., not d-i-mip-...) to get some review from mobile ip WG
> members
> willing to read it (if any, and presuming it works).  If the authors want
> to
> move it to anything more than informational, however, it seems likely to
> be
> blocked by the IESG...
>
>
Your line of reasoning is somewhat valid in general terms to me.

However, this intention should have been clear either from the
posting from the authors or from the abstract.

Neither guides us in that direction. Nor mention of the
currently selected approach is anywhere in the document.


Of course, if they authors to go for an individual info RFC, they can try,
but I would claim that since COPS is standards track too,
things may not be as similar to SKIP firewall traversal as it may look like
:).


Let's wait and see what the authors want to tell us (if they are on this ML)

alessio


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 14:48:49 2000
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From: Abderrahmane Lakas <alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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The comments to this draft are understood and well taken. Let me just
clarify that our intent (authors) is neither to use COPS as a protocol for
AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS discussion on whatever aspects of
management.

COPS is used here for non-AAA related aspects of Mobile IP. In our draft, we
propose a way to notify the PDP with the presence of MN for which
policy-related configurations may be applied. COPS looks at the relevant
extensions in the registration messages in order to make policy-related
decisions. The AAA extensions are handled by AAA authority.

We understand that we may not have highlighted it enough in the draft, but
we are not in any way proposing AAA solution for Mobile IP.

Our assumptions here is that AAA handles AAA things, and COPS handles
policy-related things. It's not clear yet for us how both coordinate, but we
assume that the PDP needs to know an MN has attached to the mobility agent,
and policies may need to be applied to it. For example, based on the
received extensions, the PDP may decide to install the MN's QoS profile.
Other extensions that are or will be defined in the future may require some
policy-management through COPS.

Finally, this proposal has merit only if COPS is used for policy management.

- Abderrahmane

-----Original Message-----
From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:07 AM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt


Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if you don't mind, I'll take off the
white gloves (not that I wear them *that* often).

Why?

The IETF has already decided that network access (and specifically Mobile
IP)
authentication, authorization and accounting is done through the protocol
that
was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a potential protocol, and did not
succeed.
 So may I ask why you insist on opening up the can of worms all over again?
Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around been enough?

Am I missing something obvious? Or are some COPS people refusing to let the
AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion in the marketplace the ultimate
goal?

PatC

> We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
>
> - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > To:   rap@iphighway.com
> > Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> >
> > --NextPart
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories.
> >
> >
> >       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> >       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> >       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >       Pages           : 14
> >       Date            : 03-Oct-00
> >
> > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > registration messages.
> >
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > username
> > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> >       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> >
> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >
> >
> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> >
> > Send a message to:
> >       mailserv@ietf.org.
> > In the body type:
> >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> >
> > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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> >
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> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C02E31.0551B550
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The comments to this draft are understood and well =
taken. Let me just clarify that our intent (authors) is neither to use =
COPS as a protocol for AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS discussion on =
whatever aspects of management.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>COPS is used here for non-AAA related aspects of =
Mobile IP. In our draft, we propose a way to notify the PDP with the =
presence of MN for which policy-related configurations may be applied. =
COPS looks at the relevant extensions in the registration messages in =
order to make policy-related decisions. The AAA extensions are handled =
by AAA authority.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We understand that we may not have highlighted it =
enough in the draft, but we are not in any way proposing AAA solution =
for Mobile IP.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Our assumptions here is that AAA handles AAA things, =
and COPS handles policy-related things. It's not clear yet for us how =
both coordinate, but we assume that the PDP needs to know an MN has =
attached to the mobility agent, and policies may need to be applied to =
it. For example, based on the received extensions, the PDP may decide =
to install the MN's QoS profile. Other extensions that are or will be =
defined in the future may require some policy-management through =
COPS.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Finally, this proposal has merit only if COPS is used =
for policy management.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>- Abderrahmane</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM">mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM</=
A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:07 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if you don't =
mind, I'll take off the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>white gloves (not that I wear them *that* =
often).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Why?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The IETF has already decided that network access (and =
specifically Mobile IP)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>authentication, authorization and accounting is done =
through the protocol that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a potential =
protocol, and did not succeed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;So may I ask why you insist on opening up the =
can of worms all over again?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around been =
enough?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Am I missing something obvious? Or are some COPS =
people refusing to let the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion in the =
marketplace the ultimate goal?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>PatC</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage =
for Mobile IP. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; announcement is attached below. We will =
appreciate any comments.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; - Muhammad Jaseemuddin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; From: yaniv@iphighway.com =
[SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 =
AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; rap@iphighway.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; To: IETF-Announce: ;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; CC: rap@iphighway.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Subject: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 =
-0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; --NextPart</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the =
on-line Internet-Drafts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; directories.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : M. Jaseemuddin, A. =
Lakas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
14</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
: 03-Oct-00</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to =
achieve transparent routing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile =
node obtains a care-of-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; address in the foreign network and =
registers that address with the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; home agent. The home agent as well as the =
foreign agent can apply</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; policies to the mobile node registration. =
This draft defines COPS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It =
describes how COPS is used to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; control Mobile IP registration based on =
policies. It defines the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; interactions between the PEP and the PDP =
to handle Mobile IP</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; registration messages. It also provides a =
guideline for mobility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; agents on how to use this COPS client with =
regards to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; registration messages.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; A URL for this Internet-Draft is:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00=
.txt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-c=
ops-mip-00.txt</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by =
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&quot;get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; A list of Internet-Drafts directories can =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; or <A =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Send a message to:</FONT>
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mailserv@ietf.org.</FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
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this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
feature, insert the command &quot;ENCODING mime&quot; before the =
&quot;FILE&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
command.&nbsp; To decode the response(s), you will need =
&quot;munpack&quot; or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a =
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the ASCII version of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Internet-Draft.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; --NextPart</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Content-Type: =
Message/External-body;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
access-type=3D&quot;mail-server&quot;;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
server=3D&quot;mailserv@ietf.org&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Content-Type: text/plain</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Content-ID:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; ENCODING mime</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; FILE =
/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; --OtherAccess</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Content-Type: =
Message/External-body;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
name=3D&quot;draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt&quot;;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
site=3D&quot;ftp.ietf.org&quot;;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
access-type=3D&quot;anon-ftp&quot;;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
directory=3D&quot;internet-drafts&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; --OtherAccess--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; --NextPart--</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 14:55:37 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:59:17 -0500
Reply-To: Phil_Neumiller@3COM.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Phil Neumiller <Phil_Neumiller@3COM.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Fun a la mipv4 et mipv6
X-To:         Behcet Sarikaya <bsarikaya_1999@YAHOO.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

No they have to stink, not suck!   No really, giant sucking sounds exist in all
working groups,
and the rough  consensus is that they all MUST go.

The SCRAP WG SHOULD be called SeaMoby.  Whales tend to make a sucking sound and
 a blowing sound through their blow holes.

-Phil "Call me Ishmael" Neumiller

>Will the SCRAP WG accept only the contributions that suck?
>For a definition of 'suck' please refer to Alassio's
>email and for a definition of SCRAP WG please refer to
>PatC's email.
>
>--behcet
>
>
>=====
>Behcet Sarikaya
>Univ. of Aizu
>Aizu, Japan
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 15:28:52 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:26:48 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Abderrahmane Lakas <alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

My question is: if some form of policy management will be performed using
COPS, what makes the PEP/PDP interaction inherently different
when mobile IP is used?

I ask this question without having carefully read the draft,
but, if you have time, this could make your proposal's
scope clearer.


thanks


alessio

> ----------
> From:         Abderrahmane Lakas[SMTP:alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]
> Reply To:     Abderrahmane Lakas
> Sent:         04 October 2000 19:29
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> The comments to this draft are understood and well taken. Let me just
> clarify that our intent (authors) is neither to use COPS as a protocol for
> AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS discussion on whatever aspects of
> management.
>
> COPS is used here for non-AAA related aspects of Mobile IP. In our draft,
> we propose a way to notify the PDP with the presence of MN for which
> policy-related configurations may be applied. COPS looks at the relevant
> extensions in the registration messages in order to make policy-related
> decisions. The AAA extensions are handled by AAA authority.
>
> We understand that we may not have highlighted it enough in the draft, but
> we are not in any way proposing AAA solution for Mobile IP.
>
> Our assumptions here is that AAA handles AAA things, and COPS handles
> policy-related things. It's not clear yet for us how both coordinate, but
> we assume that the PDP needs to know an MN has attached to the mobility
> agent, and policies may need to be applied to it. For example, based on
> the received extensions, the PDP may decide to install the MN's QoS
> profile. Other extensions that are or will be defined in the future may
> require some policy-management through COPS.
>
> Finally, this proposal has merit only if COPS is used for policy
> management.
>
> - Abderrahmane
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [ mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:07 AM
> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
>
> Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if you don't mind, I'll take off
> the
> white gloves (not that I wear them *that* often).
>
> Why?
>
> The IETF has already decided that network access (and specifically Mobile
> IP)
> authentication, authorization and accounting is done through the protocol
> that
> was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a potential protocol, and did not
> succeed.
>  So may I ask why you insist on opening up the can of worms all over
> again?
> Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around been enough?
>
> Am I missing something obvious? Or are some COPS people refusing to let
> the
> AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion in the marketplace the ultimate
> goal?
>
> PatC
>
> > We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> > announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
> >
> > - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > > To:   rap@iphighway.com
> > > Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> > >
> > > --NextPart
> > >
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > directories.
> > >
> > >
> > >       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> > >       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> > >       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >       Pages           : 14
> > >       Date            : 03-Oct-00
> > >
> > > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > > registration messages.
> > >
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > > username
> > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > >       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > >
> > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > >
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > >
> > > Send a message to:
> > >       mailserv@ietf.org.
> > > In the body type:
> > >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > >
> > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > >       MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > >       feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > >       command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> > >       a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> readers
> > >       exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > >       "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> > >       up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
>
> > >       how to manipulate these messages.
> > >
> > >
> > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > > Internet-Draft.
> > >
> > >
> > > --NextPart
> > > Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess
> > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > >       access-type="mail-server";
> > >       server="mailserv@ietf.org"
> > >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > > Content-ID:   <20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org>
> > >
> > > ENCODING mime
> > > FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess
> > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > >       name="draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt";
> > >       site="ftp.ietf.org";
> > >       access-type="anon-ftp";
> > >       directory="internet-drafts"
> > >
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess--
> > >
> > > --NextPart--
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 15:42:31 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:40:13 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

In particular, clarifying why you need this would
be helpful...


4. Handling MIP authentication extensions

If the PDP is delegated to perform authentication,
the PEP MUST send the FLO for the registration message
 followed by an extension object, all encapsulated in a client
SI object. The extension object MUST contain all extensions
 including the authentication extension that the PDP is required
to process, in the order they appear in the message.
See section 3.5 in [4] for the ordering and processing requirements
of authentication extensions, and [5] for AAA requirements.
If an authentication fails, the PDP is required to include
the appropriate authentication failure code in the decision message.

> ----------
> From:         Casati, Alessio (Alessio)[SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
> Reply To:     Casati, Alessio (Alessio)
> Sent:         04 October 2000 20:26
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> My question is: if some form of policy management will be performed using
> COPS, what makes the PEP/PDP interaction inherently different
> when mobile IP is used?
>
> I ask this question without having carefully read the draft,
> but, if you have time, this could make your proposal's
> scope clearer.
>
>
> thanks
>
>
> alessio
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Abderrahmane Lakas[SMTP:alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]
> > Reply To:     Abderrahmane Lakas
> > Sent:         04 October 2000 19:29
> > To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> > ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > The comments to this draft are understood and well taken. Let me just
> > clarify that our intent (authors) is neither to use COPS as a protocol
> for
> > AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS discussion on whatever aspects of
> > management.
> >
> > COPS is used here for non-AAA related aspects of Mobile IP. In our
> draft,
> > we propose a way to notify the PDP with the presence of MN for which
> > policy-related configurations may be applied. COPS looks at the relevant
> > extensions in the registration messages in order to make policy-related
> > decisions. The AAA extensions are handled by AAA authority.
> >
> > We understand that we may not have highlighted it enough in the draft,
> but
> > we are not in any way proposing AAA solution for Mobile IP.
> >
> > Our assumptions here is that AAA handles AAA things, and COPS handles
> > policy-related things. It's not clear yet for us how both coordinate,
> but
> > we assume that the PDP needs to know an MN has attached to the mobility
> > agent, and policies may need to be applied to it. For example, based on
> > the received extensions, the PDP may decide to install the MN's QoS
> > profile. Other extensions that are or will be defined in the future may
> > require some policy-management through COPS.
> >
> > Finally, this proposal has merit only if COPS is used for policy
> > management.
> >
> > - Abderrahmane
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [ mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:07 AM
> > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> >
> > Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if you don't mind, I'll take off
> > the
> > white gloves (not that I wear them *that* often).
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > The IETF has already decided that network access (and specifically
> Mobile
> > IP)
> > authentication, authorization and accounting is done through the
> protocol
> > that
> > was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a potential protocol, and did not
> > succeed.
> >  So may I ask why you insist on opening up the can of worms all over
> > again?
> > Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around been enough?
> >
> > Am I missing something obvious? Or are some COPS people refusing to let
> > the
> > AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion in the marketplace the ultimate
> > goal?
> >
> > PatC
> >
> > > We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> > > announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
> > >
> > > - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > > > To:   rap@iphighway.com
> > > > Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > > > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > > > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > > > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> > > >
> > > > --NextPart
> > > >
> > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > > directories.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> > > >       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> > > >       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >       Pages           : 14
> > > >       Date            : 03-Oct-00
> > > >
> > > > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > > > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > > > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > > > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > > > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > > > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > > > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > > > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > > > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > > > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > > > registration messages.
> > > >
> > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > > > username
> > > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > >       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > > >
> > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > >
> > > > Send a message to:
> > > >       mailserv@ietf.org.
> > > > In the body type:
> > > >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > > >
> > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > > >       MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > > >       feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > > >       command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack"
> or
> > > >       a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> > readers
> > > >       exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > >       "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been
> split
> > > >       up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
> on
> >
> > > >       how to manipulate these messages.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --NextPart
> > > > Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"
> > > >
> > > > --OtherAccess
> > > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > > >       access-type="mail-server";
> > > >       server="mailserv@ietf.org"
> > > >
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > > > Content-ID:   <20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org>
> > > >
> > > > ENCODING mime
> > > > FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > --OtherAccess
> > > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > > >       name="draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt";
> > > >       site="ftp.ietf.org";
> > > >       access-type="anon-ftp";
> > > >       directory="internet-drafts"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --OtherAccess--
> > > >
> > > > --NextPart--
> >
> >
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 15:42:31 2000
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Reply-To: Mohan Parthasarathy <mohanp@LOCKED.ENG.SUN.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Mohan Parthasarathy <mohanp@LOCKED.ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "Mobility
              Support in
              IPv6" draft]
X-To:         charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

 >
> It seems that there are now multiple incompatible
> interpretations of the specification within the
> existing Internet Draft, that deals with making AH
> computations when the Home Address option is present.
>
> I would like to mandate (i.e., MUST) the simplest possible
> strategy, to wit:
>
> When calculating the AH checksum, the mobile node performs
> the calculation with all data in place.  This means that,
> during the calculation, the Care-of Address might be in the

Why do you say "might" here ?  It is a bit confusing.


> Source IP address field of the IPv6 header, and then the home
> address would be in the Home Address destination option.
>
> Of course, this also means that the node receiving a packet
> with AH will have to follow the same algorithm, which
> basically just means not moving data fields at all.
> The only complication comes when it is necessary to look up
> the appropriate security association for processing either
> AH or ESP.  That lookup, typically indexed by the
> Source IP address of the IPv6 header, would instead have
> to be indexed by the home address in the Home Address
> destination option.  Since that destination option would
> occur in the packet _before_ the security header,
> processing is still very simple.
>
If you do it this way then other sections need change because
currently the draft in section 5.4 talks about Home address
option processing on receipt of a packet :

... on receipt of a packet with Home Address option,
the receiving node replaces the Source Address in the IPv6 header
with the Home Address in the Home Address option.

I think there are other places. This tells me that the first
thing i do is swap the addresses (or pointers ) and then
do the AH computation. If this is correct and  working
out the transmit side based on this,  you would need
the following :

1) Insert a home address option with the CoA in it.
2) Do the IPsec processing  (this includes SPD lookups which
   needs the right source address and hence gels in easily)
3) swap the addresses in the source field of the IPv6 header with
  the one in Home Address option after IPsec processing.

We just have to describe the bits that pass through AH computation.
Swapping is just a word to describe the contents of the home
address option and the ipv6 source address field. This is no
way modifying the contents of the packet.

> My belief is that this is the simplest solution and makes
> for a really unambiguous specification, promoting both
> interoperability and ease of processing as well as better
> compatibility with existing specifications for the order
> of options processing.
>
Is the above ambiguous still ? Either way is fine by me
as long as it is consistent. With your suggestion, you
have to make sure that all sections that discusses
about Home Address option processing is clear i.e
AH before swap or swap before AH ?

-mohan

> Comments will be appreciated.  A message which captures
> a lot of the previous discussion is appended after the
> main body of this note.  In the appended discussion, the
> question is raised whether a node receiving the Home Address
> option can easily change the way it looks up the security
> associations to depend on data in the Home Address option
> instead of the IPv6 header.  I have heard that this is
> not a problem.  I do not know the code myself, so I will
> rely on input from others who have the appropriate experience.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "Mobility Support in IPv6" draft
> Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 19:39:11 +0200
> From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr>
> To: charliep@iprg.nokia.com
> CC: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
>
>  In your previous mail you wrote:
>
>    My understanding is that the current specification makes it
>    mandatory to copy the home address into the ip6_src field of
>    the IPv6 header.  Swapping should not be performed.  Here,
>    "replace" means "copy over".   I reckon that the current
>    specification should be made unequivocal on this point.
>
> => I disagree. You need to protect both the source address and
> the address in the home address option (they should be the care-of
> and the home addresses of the mobile). If you consider a common
> binding update then you can see why this is important.
>  IMHO addresses must be swapped but there are two incompatible
> ways to do this:
>  - swap field contents (easy, simple but some people don't like this)
>  - swap pointers (more difficult but keeps the packet read-only).
> Someone must do the choice and write the result in the draft!
>
>    ---- insert big logical break delimiter at this point ---------
>
>    While thinking about the effects of this requirement, I found
>    myself wondering why.  It seems like the natural processing
>    for the mobile node, when creating the Authentication Header,
>    would be to calculate the authentication data starting with
>    the predictable fields of the IPv6 header and extensions with
>    as little change as possible.
>
> => you should consider the receiving side for AH processing.
> When the receiving side executes the home address option then
> it updates the source address (the field itself (physical) and
> the pointer to it (logical)). The AH is after then the source
> address is supposed to be the home address when the AH is processed
> and (the important point) when the security code looks for its
> parameters.
>
>    I would think that, typically, the IPv6 header already has the
>    mobile node's Care-of Address inserted as the ip6_src field before
>    the Authentication Header calculation is initiated.
>
> => it is not so clear and:
>  - the security parameters lookup (SPD/SADB) is more important than
>    the AH calculation itself and must be done with the home address.
>  - the AH calculation has to deal with mobility anyway.
>
>    Then, in order to make the spec work, the mobile node has
>    to proceed as follows:
>    - Put in its home address as ip6_src, temporarily
>    - Do the AH thing
>    - Restore its care-of address as ip6_src.
>    This seems like a lot of extra work, and a very handy
>    place to put bugs.
>
> => AH calculation is in general a very handy place to put bugs.
> Mobility doesn't make things worse, it just justifies we keep AH (:-).
>
>    What if we make it so that the recipient uses the address
>    in the Home Address option to select the appropriate security
>    association?
>
> => this is an important point. The current spec makes this easy
> for the recipient which:
>  - is the way AH processing is defined (cf routing header case)
>  - puts the burden on the mobile node shoulders
>  - works.
>
>    I understand the current specification to be fashioned so that
>    the recipient can select the security association based on the
>    contents of the source IPv6 address in the IPv6 header.
>    However, whether or not to actually CHANGE the fields,
>    treating them as mutable,
>
> => swapping pointers is better for that (it was proposed by
> Microsoft Research people who consider the packet as read-only)
>
>    seems to introduce a lot of unnecessary specification difficulties
>    that could be avoided.
>    Changing the way that a security association is looked up
>    seems a lot cheaper than copying and recopying data within
>    the challenge data.
>
> => I am not convinced by your argument. In fact I am not convinced
> by any argument for field or pointer swapping (:-)... Both are not
> obviously right but this is a minor point: the real issue is to
> deal with IKE (the draft proposal works, this is just a bit hard
> to implement and very hard to configure).
>
>    If everybody hates this idea, then just forget I mentioned it!
>
> => the only thing I really hate is to have no clear statement in
> the current draft. It will make one half of secure mobile IPv6
> implementations not interoperable with mine...
>
> Thanks
>
> Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr
>
> PS: another missing point in the current mobile IPv6 draft:
> the home agent is a router then can have more than one address then
> the draft should *accurately* specify what address the home agent
> MUST use as the source address of tunneled packet (the answer is
> obvious but a specification is better than common sense, don't forget
> a paranoid mobile node will check the source address of tunneled packets).
> (the similar issue for BA/BR is already in the mailing list archive
> because it simply breaks sequence number check)
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 17:19:47 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:05:57 -0400
Reply-To: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi Phil,


> > In my mind, fast-handoff = micro-mobility.  In your
> > definition,  fast handoff = (some mechanism based on
> > Mobile IP) whereas micro-mobility = (some mechanism
> > not based in Mobile IP).  Is this correct? If so,
> > can you explain what are the necessary conditions for
> > a mechanism to be classified as being "based on
> > Mobile IP"?  This is too vague.
> >
> No this isn't correct.  Well, the part about what's in your mind
> is correct
> I guess.  Fast handoff can be done a number of ways.  The mobile
> IP working
> group is working on it in the context of Mobile IP.  If someone somewhere
> has another way they want to do it that's fine and I think Pat
> has said the
> working group he's working on will be welcoming proposals.  The
> problem as I
> see it is that Mobile IP as it's currently defined will have trouble
> completing a "handoff" in time to keep from noticing a glitch in
> service if
> it's being used to support a realtime service.  The efforts underway here
> are an attempt to improve that situation.

There is no question about the following statement
you make regarding Mobile IP:
> "as it's currently
> defined will have trouble completing a "handoff" in
> time to keep from noticing a glitch in service if
> it's being used to support a realtime service."

Some support for fast handoff (or however one wants
to call it) is needed.  The issue is: what qualifies
a fast handoff solution to be considered to be
"based on Mobile IP"?  If it's clear to everyone in
the world except for me, pardon me for my ignorance
but I'd certainly appreciate if someone would take
the time to spell this out for me. For example:
  Does "based on Mobile IP" mean "based on rfc 2002
   (or its extensions)"?
  Does it mean "based exclusively on tunneling"?


Sandy


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 17:26:44 2000
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Date:         Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:07:38 -0400
Reply-To: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Pat,

Thanks for the update! Please keep us posted.

Regards,
Sandy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 6:19 PM
> To: Sandy Thuel
> Cc: MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
>
>
>
> > > Pat's working hard to get a charter that the IESG is
> > > happy with.
> >
> > I'm fully behind this.  Is there somewhere where we
> > can keep informed of the status of this effort without
> > bugging Pat with email probes?
> >
>
> My understanding is that the charter is now complete, and it is
> scheduled for
> the next IESG telechat. As soon as I hear anything, I will send
> the info to
> this list (and the craps list which will be renamed to follow the
> new WG name).
>  PatC
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 17:56:24 2000
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From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
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Hello Sandy,

> There is no question about the following statement
> you make regarding Mobile IP:
> > "as it's currently
> > defined will have trouble completing a "handoff" in
> > time to keep from noticing a glitch in service if
> > it's being used to support a realtime service."

I would like to raise a lot of doubt about this statement.

There is nothing in Mobile IP that prevents the mobile
node from knowing _EXACTLY_ when to register a new
care-of address.

There is nothing in Mobile IP that _ASSURES_ that the
mobile node discovers exactly when to register a new
care-of address.

Mobile IP does NOT OFFER A SOLUTION for notifying
the mobile node about the completely optimal time
when to register a new care-of address.  The solutions
provided are not meant to stand in the way of any other
better solution that might be available.

A mobile node IS ALLOWED, by any means deemed expedient,
to discover when to register a care-of address.

This has a much different truth value than the quoted
statement above.

For example, suppose a mobile node hears an advertisement
(from another protocol) 1000 times a second, that contains
a care-of address, it will be able to execute perfectly
smooth handovers.  Just as an example.  No one says you
have to do it this way, and no one says you cannot do
it this way.  The protocol says you cannot issue RFC 1256
Router Advertisements this often, but nobody says you
cannot do it another way.

Bottom line is that a mobile node, using Mobile IP,
_possibly_ but _not necessarily_ in conjunction with
other protocols, _MAY_ be able to execute a perfectly
smooth handover without any glitches.

Maybe I didn't say this the right way or the politically
correct way, but I hope it is clear.  It's a little
frustrating over the years to hear Mobile IP be so often
dinged for not doing a thing it was explicitly designed
to avoid doing. The whole point was to enable the
development of link-specific or system-specific solutions
since no general methods seem to be widely agreed upon
as applicable.  Link-specific and system-specific solutions
have more limited interoperability, but that is just the
way it is.

> Some support for fast handoff (or however one wants
> to call it) is needed.  The issue is: what qualifies
> a fast handoff solution to be considered to be
> "based on Mobile IP"?  If it's clear to everyone in
> the world except for me, pardon me for my ignorance
> but I'd certainly appreciate if someone would take
> the time to spell this out for me. For example:
>   Does "based on Mobile IP" mean "based on rfc 2002
>    (or its extensions)"?
>   Does it mean "based exclusively on tunneling"?

These are questions that are very likely to receive
intense scrutiny in the weeks to come.  I don't mean
to say whether the issues are clear, or not, but I would
hope that the document resulting from the IPv6 design
team's efforts will spell them out clearly for
everyone's further comment.  Clearly our outcomes
will not necessarily be based on RFC 2002++.

I do not think that approaches based on tunneling are
excluded, but I don't know what the IPv6 team thinks.
I also do not know whether the IPv4 drafts are reasonable
for IPv6.

Regards,
Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 18:03:30 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Vipul Gupta <Vipul.Gupta@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIP implementation !!!
X-To:         xchr@INTRANET.GR
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

  The folks behind the SUNY Binghamton implementation have moved
  on and that implementation is no longer maintained actively.
  If you are interested in something that works on Linux 2.2, you can try
  the distribution from Sun Labs at:

  http://playground.sun.com/~vgupta/sunlabs-mobileip-new.tar.gz

  regards,

  vipul


  p.s. If you are specifically looking for the Binghamton implementation,
       a copy can be found at

 http://playground.sun.com/pub/mobile-ip/Linux/Linux-MobileIPv101.tar.gz

       be warned, though, the last Linux kernel it was tested on is
       1.3.58 (or thereabouts) and will not work on 2.2.

       Other Linux implementations are available from:

         o National University of Singapore (http://mip.ee.nus.sg/)

         o Stanford University as part of the Mosquitonet project
           (http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/)



> Good morning folks !
> Can someone please tell me whats going on with
> the Binghamton UNIs URL for the Linux implementation
> on Mobile IP? Its been for ages that Im trying to download
> the files but it seems that the URL doesn't work anymore.
> Does anyone know if they have any updated versions of the
> implementation which runs on 2.2.x Kernells?
>
> Regards,
>             Christos
>
> --
> Christos Chrisanthakopoulos
>
> INTRACOM S.A.
> Development Programmes Department
> Panepistimiou 254
> 26443  Patras
> GREECE
>
> Tel:  (+30 61) 465153 (direct)
> E-mail: xchr@intranet.gr
> URL: www.intracom.gr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct  4 19:20:42 2000
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From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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> I do not think that approaches based on tunneling are
> excluded, but I don't know what the IPv6 team thinks.
> I also do not know whether the IPv4 drafts are reasonable
> for IPv6.
>
        This is not so much in response to Charlie's statement but
        to other earlier ones.
        What I don't understand is why people keep relating MIP to
        tunnelling. Sorry if that sounds naive, but the association should
        be between MIP4 and tunnelling. Realistically speaking RO will
        probably not be used much in MIPv4 hence my statement.
        But for V6 why not ? Hopefully tunnelling will be minimised in V6.
        So if the assumption is that "MIP" = "MIPv4" then the association
        is correct but I wouldn't use that terminology anyway. There are 2
        protocols here under the MIP umbrella.

        Regarding whether the V4 drafts are reasonabe for V6, I'll speak
        about Fast Handoffs. One of our main goals with Fast Handoffs was
        to find a solution that will work for both. Since the basic models
of
        RFC 2002 and MIPv6 are similar, this shouldn't be too hard.
        So our approach was based on the model in RFC 2002 and you can see
        by reading both drafts (V4 and V6 Fast Handoffs) that they are very
similar.
        So to answer the question, yes, I believe it's possible, and I'd
like to maintain
        the model of RFC 2002 and MIPv6 as much as possible.


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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?</TITLE>
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<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I do not think that approaches based on tunneling are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">excluded, but I don't know what the IPv6 team thinks.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I also do not know whether the IPv4 drafts are reasonable</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">for IPv6.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">This is not so much in response to Charlie's statement but </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">to other earlier ones.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">What I don't understand is why people keep relating MIP to </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">tunnelling. Sorry if that sounds naive, but the association should </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">be between MIP4 and tunnelling. Realistically speaking RO will </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">probably not be used much in MIPv4 hence my statement.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">But for V6 why not ? Hopefully tunnelling will be minimised in V6.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">So if the assumption is that &quot;MIP&quot; = &quot;MIPv4&quot; then the association</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">is correct but I wouldn't use that terminology anyway. There are 2</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">protocols here under the MIP umbrella. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Regarding whether the V4 drafts are reasonabe for V6, I'll speak </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">about Fast Handoffs. One of our main goals with Fast Handoffs was</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">to find a solution that will work for both. Since the basic models of </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">RFC 2002 and MIPv6 are similar, this shouldn't be too hard. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">So our approach was based on the model in RFC 2002 and you can see</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">by reading both drafts (V4 and V6 Fast Handoffs) that they are very similar. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">So to answer the question, yes, I believe it's possible, and I'd like to maintain</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">the model of RFC 2002 and MIPv6 as much as possible. </FONT>
</P>
</UL>
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face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">First

                          Name</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"fna=
me"
size=3D"25"></td>

                        <td width=3D"50%" rowspan=3D"29" valign=3D"top">

                          <table border=3D"0" width=3D"100%">

                            <tr>

                              <td width=3D"100%"></td>

                            </tr>

                          </table>

                        </td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Last

                          Name</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"lna=
me"
size=3D"25"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Co-Applicant's

                          Name</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"CoA=
pp"
size=3D"25"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">City</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"Cit=
y"
size=3D"20"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">State

                          (abbreviation)</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"Sta=
te"
size=3D"3"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Street

                          Address</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"Str=
eet"
size=3D"25"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Zip</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"Zip=
"
size=3D"13"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Work

                          Phone 000-000-0000</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"WorkPhone" size=3D"12"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Home

                          Phone 000-000-0000</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"HomePhone" size=3D"12"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Type

                          of House Owned</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><select name=3D"HouseType" size=3D=
"1">

                            <option value=3D"none">none</option>

                            <option selected value=3D"Single Family">Singl=
e
Family</option>

                            <option value=3D"Condo">Condo</option>

                            <option value=3D"Townhouse">Townhouse</option>

                            <option value=3D"Investment">Investment</optio=
n>

                            <option value=3D"other">other</option>

                          </select></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Current

                          Value</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"CurrentValue" size=3D"20"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Purchase

                          Price</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"PurchasePrice" size=3D"20"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">First

                          Mortgage Balance</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"FistMtgBal" size=3D"20"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Interest

                          Rate</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"Int=
Rate"
size=3D"5"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Fixed

                          or Adjustable?</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><select name=3D"FxdAdj" size=3D"=
1">

                            <option value=3D"Fixed">Fixed</option>

                            <option selected
value=3D"Adjustable">Adjustable</option>

                            <option value=3D"Not sure">Not sure</option>

                          </select></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Monthly

                          Payment</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"MoPayment" size=3D"20"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Behind

                          on Payments?</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><select name=3D"BehindOnPayments=
"
size=3D"1">

                            <option value=3D"Yes">Yes</option>

                            <option selected value=3D"No">No</option>

                          </select></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">How

                          Would Your Rate Your Credit?</font></strong></td=
>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><select name=3D"Credit" size=3D"=
1">

                            <option value=3D"Poor">Poor</option>

                            <option selected value=3D"Fair">Fair</option>

                            <option value=3D"Good">Good</option>

                          </select></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Place

                          of Employment</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"Employment" size=3D"20"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Years

                          There</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><select name=3D"YearsThere" size=
=3D"1">

                            <option value=3D"0-2">0-2 years</option>

                            <option value=3D"2-5 years">2-5 years</option>

                            <option selected value=3D"5 to 10 years">5 to =
10
years</option>

                            <option value=3D"over 10 years">over 10
years</option>

                          </select></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Yearly

                          Income</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"inc=
ome"
size=3D"20"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Best

                          Time to Call</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text"
name=3D"TimeToCall" size=3D"24"></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Type

                          of Loan Desired</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><select name=3D"LoanDesired" siz=
e=3D"1">

                            <option selected value=3D"Second Mortgage">Sec=
ond

                            Mortgage</option>

                            <option value=3D"Debt Consolidation">Debt

                            Consolidation</option>

                            <option value=3D"Home Improvement">Home
Improvement</option>

                            <option value=3D"Purchase">Purchase</option>

                            <option value=3D"Refinance">Refinance</option>

                            <option value=3D"unsure">unsure</option>

                          </select></td>

                      </tr>

                      <tr>

                        <td width=3D"44%" align=3D"right"><strong><font
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000000">Email

                          Address</font></strong></td>

                        <td width=3D"40%"><input type=3D"text" name=3D"Ema=
il"
size=3D"25"></td>

                      </tr>



                    </table>

                  </div>

                  <div align=3D"center">

                    <p><input type=3D"SUBMIT" value=3D"Submit Form"> <inpu=
t
type=3D"RESET" value=3D"Reset Form"></p><br><br>

                    If you received this in error or would like to be <BR>



removed from our list, <A
href=3D"mailto:removeadd6@china.com?subject=3Dremove">PLEASE CLICK HERE</A=
>

                  </div>

                </form>

              </td>

            </tr>

          </table>

        </td>

      </tr>

    </table>

  </td>

  </tr>

  </table>

</div>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>









</body>



</html>






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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 05:36:56 2000
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Date:         Tue, 11 Jan 2000 03:24:12 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia_Bo82@zahav.net.il
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Patricia <Patricia_Bo87@zahav.net.il>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Here Is The Information As Your Requested
X-To:         Patricia_95@zahav.net.il
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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                                                                        - Jim Rohn
To be removed send email to ozzquer@yahoo.com


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 06:23:05 2000
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Address: Mickiewicza 30, 30-059 Krakow, POLAND
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Date:         Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:10:20 +0200
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Piotr Pacyna <proms@SATURN.KT.AGH.EDU.PL>
Organization: University of Mining and Metallurgy
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] PROMS2000: Call for Participation
X-To:         mobile-ip@smallworks.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

   We do apologize, if you receive multiple copies of this e-mail
---------------------------------------------------------------------
                  PROTOCOLS FOR MULTIMEDIA SYSTEMS - PROMS2000
                            CALL FOR PARTICIPATION
                       Cracow, Poland, October 22-25, 2000
                         http://PROMS2000.kt.agh.edu.pl/


PRELIMINARY CONFERENCE PROGRAMME

                        Monday, 23 October 2000
08:30-09:50 Registration
09:50-10:00 Opening

10:00-11:30 Tutorial
        Stefan Arbanowski, Sven van den Meyer, Technical University Berlin, Germany
        Flexible media and content adaptation for Communication Systems

11:50-13:20 Tutorial
        Johan Zuidweg, Tecsidel S.A., Spain
        Software architectures for Next Generation Networks

14:50-16:10 Session 1A - Multimedia Protocols
        SIGTRAN: Signaling Transport
        A Relative Differentiated Service Model for Adaptive Traffic
        Decreasing Transfer Delay Through Partial Reliability
        Issues about Advance Reservation for Real-Time Traffic

14:50-16:10 Session 1B:  IP-Based Services
        Virtual Broadcast - A novel service based on IP Multicast
        Scalable Resource Management Architecture for VoIP
        Unicast Extensions to IP Multicast

16:30-18:00  Tutorial
        Stanislaw Jedrus, Polish Academy of Science, Poland
        Practical introduction to multimedia traffic characterization and modelling techniques


                        Tuesday, 24 October 2000
9:00-10:30 Tutorial
        Oliver Verscheure, IBM T.J. Watson Laboratory
        Scalable Multi-Windowed DTV Experience

11:50-13:00  Session 2A:  QoS Management
        A Reflective Component-Based Middleware with Quality of Service Management
        QoS measurements and comparative analysis of performance parameters on ISPs
        Quality of Service for TCP/IP Traffic: An Overview
        Flexible and Extensible QoS-Management for Adaptive Middleware
        An Integrated Toolset for the Design of Protocols with QoS Requirements (ProtCAD/RT)
        Adaptability in multimedia transmissions using layering multicast and QoS guarantees

11:50-13:00  Session 2B:  Video Streaming Performance
        Streaming Multimedia Data with Adaptive QoS Characteristics
        Transmission of MPEG Video over Networks with Closed-Loop Rate-Based Flow Control
        Buffering at Internet Caches for Improving QoS of Streaming Media
        Solid State Disks in Multimedia Systems with Deterministic QoS
        Quality Control Experiences in on Demand Video Transmission
        Video Placement on a Networked Disk Subsystem for Clustered Video-on-Demand Servers


14:50-16:10 Session 3A:  QoS Provisioning
        A Framework for on-Demand QoS Bearers over Fixed and Mobile Internet Access
        Protocol or Header Indication - Methods to Request Quality of Service for IP-Apps
        Inter-domain QoS provision for Internet-wide multicast traffic
        SR-QoS System for Multimedia Communication in Mobile Ad Hoc Networks

14:50-16:10 Session 3B:  Media Streaming Architectures
        An Architecture for Streaming Control in Distributed Multimedia Systems
        Video on Demand Using HTTP
        DiVA: QoS-aware streaming of multimedia content over the Internet
        Reliable and Flexible Video Codec Structure Implemented on a RISC Processor

20:00 Banquet

                        Wednesday, 25 October 2000
8:30-10:00 Tutorial
        Peter Psenak, Cisco Systems, Belgium
        MPLS Traffic Engineering

10:30-11:50  Session 4A:  Service Access
        Copyright Protection Protocols for Multimedia Distribution Based on Trusted Hardware
        Broadband Network Set-Top Box System
        Virtual Collaborative Environment with Next Generation Multimedia Systems
        Design and Implementation of the Electronic Programme Guides for the MPEG2-Based DVB

10:30-11:50  Session 4B:  Traffic Engineering
        Analysis of the Adaptive Rate Control for Point to Multipoint Connections in ATM Nets
        Modeling and Performance Evaluation of an HFC Network Operator
        Deficit Round Robin Alternated: A New Scheduling
        The Performance of Multiplexing Voice and Circuit Switched Data in UMTS over IP Network

11:50-13:00 Session 5A - Poster:  Networking Issues
        Group Signature Schemes Based on the Difficulty of Computation of Approximate E-th Root
        Internet Card, a smart card for internet
        Influence of Intervals and Packet Length in Test Sequences - Limits of Testing
        Enhanced Distributed recording of Mbone sessions
        Mobility in ATM Networks - QoS Support in Handover Protocols

11:50-13:00 Session 5B - Poster:  Media Retrieval
        Methods for Content Based Radiological Images Searching
        Integration of a Voice Recognition-Based Indexing with Multimedia Applications
        Towards a High Level Interface for Content Based Retrieval and Querying
        Selfsimilarity of an MPEG-2 Video Stream Generated by DVD Applications

14:50-16:10 Session 6A:  Service Access
        The Problem of End-to-end Security for Proxy-based Systems
        IGMPv3 Extensions for Providing IP Multicast Authentication Services:
                                      An Example of DoS Multicast Attacks Avoidance
        Monitoring Extensions for Component-Based Distributed Software

14:50-16:10 Session 6B:  Traffic Engineering
        Effects of Red Dynamics on TCP-Friendliness of Rate-Based Control Protocol
        Multimedia Signals over IP by Using Polyphase Down Sampling Multiple Description
        SDL Based Performance Analysis of Audio over ST2+
        Fine Grained Rate Control at Network Edge Nodes
------------------------------------------------------
see http://PROMS2000.kt.agh.edu.pl/
Thank you.
------------------------------------------------------


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From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Proposal for new Destination Options placement
X-To:         "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
X-cc:         Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@inria.fr>,
              IPng Working Group <ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:11:13 PDT. 
              <39DB4891.4D00FE56@iprg.nokia.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   I agree with you that the existing choices for ordering AH
   and Destination Options are not sufficient.  In my mind,
   the first and most serious error, that affects the placement
   of the Home Address option, is it has to go before AH, but
   there is no need at all for it to be processed by the
   intermediate routing points of a routing header.

   Therefore, I'd like to suggest that in the Mobile IPv6
   specification, we enable the placement of Destination Options
   after the Routing Header, but before the Fragment Header.
   This will enable the correct placement of the Home Address
   destination option, and it will greatly simplify any needed
   firewall treatment.

=> we agree. We'll get three kinds of destination options extension
headers:
 - "note 1" which are not used (IMHO we should garbage collected them).
 - new DO headers between the routing header (if any) and the fragmentation
   header (if any). I believe the tunnel encapsulation limit should
   go there too (ie. with the home address option) because this will
   limit over-encapsulated fragments (and over-encapsulation would produce
   fragments).
 - "note 3" well known DO headers which will be used today only for
   binding options then should get a new value for its next-header type
   (this will not introduce major interoperability problems and will
    make things far simpler to understand ans to implement).

Thanks

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr

PS: this mail is the result of a meeting at IPv6 bake-off organized by ETSI
between all present mobile IPv6 gurus...


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 08:46:10 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Implementation Issues re
              MobileIP and
              IPSec]
X-To:         "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
X-cc:         Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@inria.fr>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Wed, 04 Oct 2000 08:15:32 PDT. 
              <39DB4994.A9A0645A@iprg.nokia.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   The Binding Update, as you and others have mentioned, could
   reasonably go either in the same Destination Options header
   as the Home Address option, or after AH.  It seems to be a
   matter of convenience.  The Binding Update option seems to
   have less needs for protection against snooping than the IPv6
   header.  In other words, if one wanted to protect the Binding
   Update, then one would also want to protect the preceding
   IPv6 header.  That implies to me that the main good
   reason for requiring the Binding Update to go after AH,
   except possibly for natural processing requirements.
   On the other hand, the latter is a good reason!

=> this argument (natural processing) was shared by a majority
of the people here at ETSI bake-off (ie. most of us would like
to execute the binding update when the option is found then
it must be after the home address option and the authentication
header, according to mobile IPv6 + IPsec requirements this gives
exactly the "note 3" position, ie. after IPsec headers (including
the required AH)).

   I do see that we should make a definite specification for
   particular placement of the Binding Update.

=> and use the same for other binding options ("previous" draft
is not enough accurate about this then we have this discussion).

   I would like to make the following proposal for discussion.

   - Allow Home Address option to be placed after the routing
     header but before the fragment header (as mentioned earlier)
   - Require Binding Update to occur after AH.

=> this is good for us.

   The cost is additional header bytes, but the benefit is
   more natural header processing.  I think that we ought to
   get this issue settled ASAP, with a specific placement, and then
   try to get some mileage out of using header compression to squeeze
   the bytes back out again.   Using header compression might be more
   efficient if there are fewer possibilities for placement.

=> anything is simpler and more efficient with fewer possibilities.
Obviously the "previous" draft has too much freedom there...

Thanks

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 09:22:55 2000
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Reply-To: Aime.Le-Rouzic@BULL.NET
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: AIme Le-Rouzic <Aime.Le-Rouzic@BULL.NET>
Organization: Bull
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "Mobility
              Support in IPv6"              draft]
X-To:         charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello,


Charles E. Perkins wrote:
>

>When calculating the AH checksum, the mobile node performs
>the calculation with all data in place.  This means that,
>during the calculation, the Care-of Address might be in the
>Source IP address field of the IPv6 header, and then the home
>address would be in the Home Address destination option.


 The RH used towards the mobile and the Destination Option Home address
are similar about many aspects. Can't we have the same behavior about AH
for both.

 To authenticate the RH the AH processing is done on the state RH will
be at the reception.That means the
Home Address in the IP header.
 The Home address in the IP header is the final state
of the packet also when HA,
 it is why it may be better to apply AH on this state.

 Best Regards.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 09:31:55 2000
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Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

While I'm waiting for answers,
I'll go further, hoping the backlog won't
increase too much:

It seems to me that in case some policies are related
to QoS, then a QoS client is better suited than a MIP client.
maybe we could define MIP QoS extensions that could be used by
(that is are compatible with) the COPS RSVP client (just as a dumb example).

If instead you are talking about roaming policies, then probably they
could naturally fit within the AAA framework.
Any user profile can also be
downloaded to a PEP (which does not necessarily speak COPS) when
the user registers and as such the home AAA server is queried.
This is somehow consistent with the HSS model...
The envelope of such profiles may
not be COPS. It may be part of the AAA protocol (more usefully, I think)

For other "service specific" policy, again, the MIP extensions
possibly should be defined so that they could be used by the
client for that specific service.

alessio


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 11:38:13 2000
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Date:         Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:35:20 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@nortelnetworks.com>
X-cc:         Abderrahmane Lakas <alakas@nortelnetworks.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

>       It seems to me that in case some policies are related
> to QoS, then a QoS client is better suited than a MIP client.
> maybe we could define MIP QoS extensions that could be used by
> (that is are compatible with) the COPS RSVP client (just as a dumb
> example).
>
>       [MJ]  You are very close to what has motivated us
>
Cool!

> . Yes, we can define some MIP extension for QoS, but where that extension
> will be processed? Most likely at PDP. For that, we need to communicate
> that QoS extension to the PDP. We can do that using COPS-MIP.
>
Or COPS RSVP if we are smart enough to reuse work done by others...

>       I am glad that you mentioned COPS-RSVP. Because, that helps
> understand COPS-MIP as it is analogous to COPS-RSVP. They both use the
> same COPS signaled policy model. However COPS-RSVP is designed to
> understand and handle RSVP objects. In order to handle MIP extensions,  we
> need a new COPS client that understands and handle MIP extensions. That's
> what we think COPS-MIP is for.
>
I would regard COPS MIP as useful as COPS IP. The fact a user is moving
should not
affect policy mechanisms.


>       If instead you are talking about roaming policies, then probably
> they
> could naturally fit within the AAA framework.
> Any user profile can also be
> downloaded to a PEP (which does not necessarily speak COPS) when
> the user registers and as such the home AAA server is queried.
> This is somehow consistent with the HSS model...
> The envelope of such profiles may
> not be COPS. It may be part of the AAA protocol (more usefully, I think)
>
>       [MJ]  Yes the roaming policies are most likely handled by AAA
> server, and if the PDP needs information about them, then the PDP can
> communicate with the AAA server. But, whichever mechanisms are used to
> handle roaming policies, should not affect COPS-MIP.
>
If COPS MIP won't exist, as I personally think, this is going to be most
likely.

>       For other "service specific" policy, again, the MIP extensions
> possibly should be defined so that they could be used by the
> client for that specific service.
>
>       [MJ]  Which client? If you are talking about COPS client, then that
> is COPS-MIP.
>
>
Oh well,

If I talk about host routing, somebody thinks I talking about CIP
If I talk about a COPS client, somebody thinks it is the COPS MIP client...

Please, try not to limit your perspective to the work you have done
(which is pointing out some aspects people could work on, but probably
it is not the best possible solution).

having said that, I'm still waiting some answers from the backlog

(there's one on authentication handling I'm particularly keen on)


Alessio


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 11:38:14 2000
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From: Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
X-cc:         Abderrahmane Lakas <alakas@nortelnetworks.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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        Alessio:

        See my comments in-line.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:30 AM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> While I'm waiting for answers,
> I'll go further, hoping the backlog won't
> increase too much:
>
> It seems to me that in case some policies are related
> to QoS, then a QoS client is better suited than a MIP client.
> maybe we could define MIP QoS extensions that could be used by
> (that is are compatible with) the COPS RSVP client (just as a dumb
> example).
>
        [MJ]  You are very close to what has motivated us. Yes, we can
define some MIP extension for QoS, but where that extension will be
processed? Most likely at PDP. For that, we need to communicate that QoS
extension to the PDP. We can do that using COPS-MIP.

        I am glad that you mentioned COPS-RSVP. Because, that helps
understand COPS-MIP as it is analogous to COPS-RSVP. They both use the same
COPS signaled policy model. However COPS-RSVP is designed to understand and
handle RSVP objects. In order to handle MIP extensions,  we need a new COPS
client that understands and handle MIP extensions. That's what we think
COPS-MIP is for.


> If instead you are talking about roaming policies, then probably they
> could naturally fit within the AAA framework.
> Any user profile can also be
> downloaded to a PEP (which does not necessarily speak COPS) when
> the user registers and as such the home AAA server is queried.
> This is somehow consistent with the HSS model...
> The envelope of such profiles may
> not be COPS. It may be part of the AAA protocol (more usefully, I think)
>
        [MJ]  Yes the roaming policies are most likely handled by AAA
server, and if the PDP needs information about them, then the PDP can
communicate with the AAA server. But, whichever mechanisms are used to
handle roaming policies, should not affect COPS-MIP.

> For other "service specific" policy, again, the MIP extensions
> possibly should be defined so that they could be used by the
> client for that specific service.
>
        [MJ]  Which client? If you are talking about COPS client, then that
is COPS-MIP.



> alessio

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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Alessio:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">See my comments =
in-line.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Casati, Alessio (Alessio) =
[SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:30 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">While I'm waiting for answers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'll go further, hoping the backlog =
won't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">increase too much:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It seems to me that in case some =
policies are related</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to QoS, then a QoS client is better =
suited than a MIP client.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">maybe we could define MIP QoS =
extensions that could be used by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(that is are compatible with) the =
COPS RSVP client (just as a dumb example).</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[MJ]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> You are very close to what has motivated us. =
Yes, we can define some MIP extension for QoS, but where that extension =
will be processed? Most likely at PDP. For that, we need to communicate =
that QoS extension to the PDP. We can do that using COPS-MIP.&nbsp; =
</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I am glad that you =
mentioned COPS-RSVP. Because, that helps understand COPS-MIP as it is =
analogous to COPS-RSVP. They both use the same COPS signaled policy =
model. However COPS-RSVP is designed to understand and handle RSVP =
objects. In order to handle MIP extensions,&nbsp; we need a new COPS =
client that understands and handle MIP extensions. That's what we think =
COPS-MIP is for.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If instead you are talking about =
roaming policies, then probably they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">could naturally fit within the AAA =
framework.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Any user profile can also be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">downloaded to a PEP (which does not =
necessarily speak COPS) when</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the user registers and as such the =
home AAA server is queried.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">This is somehow consistent with the =
HSS model...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The envelope of such profiles =
may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">not be COPS. It may be part of the =
AAA protocol (more usefully, I think)</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[MJ]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> Yes the roaming policies are most likely =
handled by AAA server, and if the PDP needs information about them, =
then the PDP can communicate with the AAA server. But, whichever =
mechanisms are used to handle roaming policies, should not affect =
COPS-MIP.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For other &quot;service specific&quot; =
policy, again, the MIP extensions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">possibly should be defined so that =
they could be used by the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">client for that specific =
service.</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[MJ]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> Which client? If you are talking about COPS =
client, then that is COPS-MIP.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">alessio</FONT>
</P>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 11:48:17 2000
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Reply-To: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
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From: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         charliep@iprg.nokia.com
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Hi Charlie,

>
> > There is no question about the following statement
> > you make regarding Mobile IP:
> > > "as it's currently
> > > defined will have trouble completing a "handoff" in
> > > time to keep from noticing a glitch in service if
> > > it's being used to support a realtime service."
>
> I would like to raise a lot of doubt about this statement.
>
> There is nothing in Mobile IP that prevents the mobile
> node from knowing _EXACTLY_ when to register a new
> care-of address.
>
> There is nothing in Mobile IP that _ASSURES_ that the
> mobile node discovers exactly when to register a new
> care-of address.
>
> Mobile IP does NOT OFFER A SOLUTION for notifying
> the mobile node about the completely optimal time
> when to register a new care-of address.  The solutions
> provided are not meant to stand in the way of any other
> better solution that might be available.
>
> A mobile node IS ALLOWED, by any means deemed expedient,
> to discover when to register a care-of address.
>
> This has a much different truth value than the quoted
> statement above.
>
> For example, suppose a mobile node hears an advertisement
> (from another protocol) 1000 times a second, that contains
> a care-of address, it will be able to execute perfectly
> smooth handovers.  Just as an example.  No one says you
> have to do it this way, and no one says you cannot do
> it this way.  The protocol says you cannot issue RFC 1256
> Router Advertisements this often, but nobody says you
> cannot do it another way.
>
> Bottom line is that a mobile node, using Mobile IP,
> _possibly_ but _not necessarily_ in conjunction with
> other protocols, _MAY_ be able to execute a perfectly
> smooth handover without any glitches.
>
> Maybe I didn't say this the right way or the politically
> correct way, but I hope it is clear.  It's a little
> frustrating over the years to hear Mobile IP be so often
> dinged for not doing a thing it was explicitly designed
> to avoid doing. The whole point was to enable the
> development of link-specific or system-specific solutions
> since no general methods seem to be widely agreed upon
> as applicable.  Link-specific and system-specific solutions
> have more limited interoperability, but that is just the
> way it is.

Thanks for your clarifications regarding Mobile IP's
ability to support fast handoffs and sorry for having
quoted such a mis-leading statement.

  I absolutely  agree that there is nothing inherent
in Mobile IP that prevents or precludes fast handoff
support.  It is also clear that Mobile IP was designed
with no assumptions nor requirements about
specific link-layer mechanisms for fast handoffs (e.g.,
informing the mobile exactly when to register a
new care-of-address).  On the other hand, the
judicious exploitation of link-layer support for
fast handoffs, when such support exists, has the
potential to significantly enhance the handover
performance of Mobile IP.  The challenge is in
findings ways to exploit these mechanisms without
violating the link-layer transparency of Mobile IP's
design.  By the same token, the fine-tuning of
performance parameters for mechanisms defined by
Mobile IP (e.g., frequency of router advertisements)
can also help in enhancing handover performance
(without exploiting any link-layer support).  There
are, however, cost/performance tradeoffs for these
different approaches that aren't obvious (to me, at
least).  I would expect that the WG work on fast
handoff support would shed some light on these
tradeoffs.

>
> > Some support for fast handoff (or however one wants
> > to call it) is needed.  The issue is: what qualifies
> > a fast handoff solution to be considered to be
> > "based on Mobile IP"?  If it's clear to everyone in
> > the world except for me, pardon me for my ignorance
> > but I'd certainly appreciate if someone would take
> > the time to spell this out for me. For example:
> >   Does "based on Mobile IP" mean "based on rfc 2002
> >    (or its extensions)"?
> >   Does it mean "based exclusively on tunneling"?
>
> These are questions that are very likely to receive
> intense scrutiny in the weeks to come.  I don't mean
> to say whether the issues are clear, or not, but I would
> hope that the document resulting from the IPv6 design
> team's efforts will spell them out clearly for
> everyone's further comment.  Clearly our outcomes
> will not necessarily be based on RFC 2002++.
>

It's comforting to hear that these questions will be
addressed in more depth.  Do you know what is the
IPv6 design team's target timeframe in making this
document available? Is there any place where people
external to the design team can keep tabs on the
team's progress?

Regards,
Sandy


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From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Sandy Thuel <thuel@lucent.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> It's comforting to hear that these questions will be
> addressed in more depth.  Do you know what is the
> IPv6 design team's target timeframe in making this
> document available? Is there any place where people
> external to the design team can keep tabs on the
> team's progress?
>
> Regards,
> Sandy
>
>
> > A discussion list has been setup for this and the address
> of this list
> > is: mipv6-handoff@sunroof.eng.sun.com
> >
> > The list is open to anyone who wishes to contribute to this
> effort and
> > anyone can be a part of the design team.


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From: Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
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I believe December is the timeframe.

Here is how to subscribe:

TO:
'Majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com'

BODY:
subscribe mipv6-handoff@sunroof.eng.sun.com "address"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:52 AM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
>
> > It's comforting to hear that these questions will be
> > addressed in more depth.  Do you know what is the
> > IPv6 design team's target timeframe in making this
> > document available? Is there any place where people
> > external to the design team can keep tabs on the
> > team's progress?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> > > A discussion list has been setup for this and the address
> > of this list
> > > is: mipv6-handoff@sunroof.eng.sun.com
> > >
> > > The list is open to anyone who wishes to contribute to this
> > effort and
> > > anyone can be a part of the design team.

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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I believe December =
is the timeframe.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Here is how to =
subscribe:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">TO:</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">'Majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com'</FONT>
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<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">subscribe =
mipv6-handoff@sunroof.eng.sun.com &quot;address&quot;</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Casati, Alessio (Alessio) =
[SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:52 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements =
required?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; It's comforting to hear that =
these questions will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; addressed in more depth.&nbsp; =
Do you know what is the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; IPv6 design team's target =
timeframe in making this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; document available? Is there any =
place where people</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; external to the design team can =
keep tabs on the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; team's progress?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Sandy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; A discussion list has been =
setup for this and the address</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; of this list</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; is: =
mipv6-handoff@sunroof.eng.sun.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; The list is open to anyone =
who wishes to contribute to this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; effort and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; anyone can be a part of the =
design team.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 14:54:17 2000
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From: Pete McCann <mccap@RESEARCH.BELL-LABS.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approaches
X-To:         "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi,

I wanted to respond to some of the points Karim made, which I hope
will help to clarify the differences between the two drafts:

"Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE> (KE) writes:

KE> Proactive Handoffs draft = draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02
KE> Fast Handoffs draft = draft-elmalki-mobileip-fast-handoffs-03

KE> 1) The Fast Handoffs draft allows both the network and the
KE> MN to control L3 handoffs just as normal Mobile IP (RFC2002).
KE> The MN performs Mobile IP Registrations and is therefore in
KE> control as to when and with which agent it registers. The
KE> network is also in control since it may decide whether to
KE> send the MN an agent advertisement to trigger the MN's
KE> movement (without which the MN will not perform movement
KE> detection and MIP Registration). The network may also
KE> advertise but reject the MN's Registration and thus again
KE> exercise control. In Proactive handoffs the MN has no control
KE> over the handoff and may only react to the network-controlled
KE> handoff after it has obtained L2 connectivity to the new FA
KE> and starts receiving data from it. Thus the handoff
KE> is forced on the MN and the MN may only react if and
KE> when the new FA decides to advertise.

The terms "control" and "force" should be taken with a grain of salt
here.  It is true that the MN, in the Proactive draft, does not
receive an agent advertisement before the handoff, but this is for a
very good reason: we are decoupling the Mobile IP layer-3 handoff from
the underlying layer-2 handoff.  In typical cellular link layers,
there is no time for the Mobile IP protocol (advert/request/response)
to run before the actual handoff must be over and done with and
connectivity to the old FA is lost.

To use Karim's Fast Handoff draft, you need to make sure that the
advert/request/response can run after link-layer power measurements
indicate a likely handoff, but before connectivity to the current
FA is lost.  This imposes very tight real-time requirements on the
MIP client implementation that we were unwilling to impose in the
Proactive draft - my feeling is that this runs counter to the Internet
design philosophy.  You can think of Proactive handoffs as a way to
remove the layer-3 messaging from the critical handoff path; the
network proactively sets up a tunnel from the old point of attachment
to the new point of attachment, and the MN can register there at its
leisure.

KE> 2) The Fast Handoffs draft allows the MN to register with
KE> the new FA (or GFA) before it moves and before it obtains L2
KE> connectivity to that new FA, thus anticipating the MN's
KE> movement. By interacting with L2 it is possible for the
KE> FA to synchronize such a registration with the cellular
KE> network's mobility such that the new Registration is
KE> completed before the MN is instructed to perform a handoff
KE> at L2. Local HA functionality (GFA) is used to limit the
KE> RTT for the MN's registration. In this way we potentially
KE> eliminate the service disruption caused by L3 handoffs and
KE> limit the MN's service disruption period to that imposed by
KE> the specific L2.

Again, this indicates a pretty tight real-time coupling between the
MIP client and the L2 that we wanted to avoid.  Registering after
the L2 handoff removes this dependency.  Also it eliminates the
configuration headaches that are implicit in the Fast Handoffs
scheme: how does the current FA get the advertisement from the
next FA, how does it propagate the registration over multiple
routing hops, and how does the new FA associate the registration
with the soon-to-be-established link-layer connection?

KE> 3) The same amount of Registrations/Advertisement are sent/received
KE> by an active MN using Proactive or Fast Handoffs for the support
KE> of real-time services such as VoIP. The main difference is that
KE> in Fast Handoffs the Registration is performed by the MN before
KE> it performs a handoff to the new FA, while in Proactive handoffs
KE> this is done after the MN has performed a handoff to the new
KE> FA and once it is receiving traffic through the new FA.

Yup.

KE> 4) It is not clear in the proactive approach how an intersystem
KE> handoff is handled. For example a handoff occuring between two
KE> different wireless technologies. If the proactive approach is
KE> to be used for handoffs, and if the MN has a choice of two
KE> different systems, it is not possible for the MN to choose which
KE> FA it wants to be connected to (until after the MN has been handed
KE> off to the new FA). Hence a handoff may result in connecting the
KE> MN to a less preferred FA. This is especially true if the FAs
KE> choose not to send agent advertisements for very long periods as
KE> suggested by the draft. This situation will not arise in Fast
KE> Handoffs.

Inter-system handoffs using the same technology are exactly where
the Proactive approach is intended to be used.  The neighboring FAs
know about each other and have a security association, in the same
way that neighboring Radio Access Networks in today's cellular systems
know about each other (otherwise they would not be able to perform
a hard handoff).  When a handoff from one to another is indicated,
a proactive tunnel is set up and the handoff indication is sent to
the MN.  No involvement from the MN's MIP client is required until
after the real-time handoff is complete.

For inter-system handoffs using different technologies, I don't see
why the network needs to provide any special support over RFC 2002.
The MN can presumably use both technologies simultaneously (otherwise
the handoff cannot possibly be smooth) and can listen for
advertisements on both devices.  When the MN chooses, and without any
special assistance from the network, it may register on the new
technology (let's say, 802.11) and allow its old registration (let's
say, on the cdma2000 network) to expire.  In the meantime, who cares
if the MN was momentarily connected to a new cdma2000 RAN?  The
temporary proactive handoff provides service to the MN while it is
registering on the 802.11 network, and the MN wasn't required to do
anything!

KE> 5) The proactive draft states that a FA MAY choose to send an
KE> Agent Advertisement to the MN after the handoff has taken place.
KE> The length of time after which the advertisement is sent is
KE> unclear. If simultaneous bindings are used (which is suggested by
KE> the draft), this will result in long lifetimes for the
KE> simultaneous bindings and consequently an inefficient use of
KE> bandwidth since multiple copies of the same packet are transmitted
KE> to FAs. In Fast Handoffs simultaneous bindings will have short
KE> lifetimes in order to minimize bandwidth consumption.

Obviously, the network operator must decide how to set these parameters
for optimal network utilization.  If registration is not required for
some time then use of the 'S' bit may not be appropriate.

However, if it is possible for the MN to "ping-pong" between two
different FAs very rapidly, then the simultaneous registrations are
quite useful - multiple copies of packets are exactly what is desired,
on copy transmitted from the old FA (if a link layer connection to the
MN exists there) and another copy from the new FA (again, if a link
layer connection to the MN exists there).  Forcing the MN to send MIP
registrations on each ping-pong event is likely to lead to much
greater strain on the MIP client implementation.

In summary, I think the Fast Handoffs draft has some hidden costs
associated with it (tight L2 coupling, configuration of adverts from
neighbor FAs, getting "remote" registration to work properly) that may
not be immediately obvious on a first read-through.  The Proactive
draft requires some extra support from the network elements but allows
us to use a completely vanilla (non real-time) RFC 2002 MIP client
implementation.  The frequency of advertisements/registrations can be
adjusted for optimum end-to-end performance without regard to the rate
of handoffs in the underlying L2 technology.

-Pete


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 15:29:57 2000
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From: Sandy Thuel <thuel@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
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RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?Hi Hesham,

Sorry I didn't get to your email sooner.
  => I was guessing that's what was on your mind, may I ask why
  fast handoff = micromobility ?
  If we can achieve the performance targets that we're aiming for
  using MIP and some extensions wouldn't that be better and much less
  complex than inventing new protocols ? Let alon saving years of IETF work
?

  I think we have a terminology problem that is causing all this confusion
so let me take a stab at defining these terms based on your comments and
please correct me if I have misunderstood you:

  fast handoff support: approaches to enhance the handover performance of
Mobile IP by using existing Mobile IP mechanisms possibly with some
extensions.

  micro-mobility support: approaches to enhance handover performance of
Mobile IP by defining new protocols that work in conjunction with Mobile IP
while not adhering to conventional Mobile IP mechanisms.

Is this a reasonable definition for starters?  If so, we can then discuss
the relative merits and disadvantages of each.

Thanks,

Sandy





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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D188513115-05102000>Hi=20
Hesham,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D188513115-05102000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D188513115-05102000>Sorry=20
I didn't get to your email sooner.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
  <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>=3D&gt; I was guessing =
that's what was=20
  on your mind, may I ask why</FONT> <BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>fast handoff =3D micromobility ? </FONT><BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2>If we can achieve the performance targets that =
we're aiming=20
  for </FONT><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>using MIP =
and some=20
  extensions wouldn't that be better and much less</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2>complex than inventing new =
protocols ? Let=20
  alon saving years of IETF work ?</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2><SPAN class=3D188513115-05102000>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D188513115-05102000>I=20
  think we have a terminology problem that is causing all this confusion =
so let=20
  me take a stab at defining these terms base</SPAN></FONT><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D188513115-05102000>d</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D188513115-05102000> on your=20
  comments and please correct me if I have misunderstood =
you:</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D188513115-05102000>fast=20
  handoff support: approaches to enhance the handover performance of =
Mobile IP=20
  by using existing Mobile IP mechanisms possibly with some =
extensions.&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D188513115-05102000></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2><SPAN class=3D188513115-05102000>micro-mobility support: =
approaches to=20
  enhance handover performance of Mobile IP by defining new protocols =
that work=20
  in conjunction with Mobile IP while not adhering to=20
  conventional</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D188513115-05102000> Mobile IP =
mechanisms.</SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D188513115-05102000>Is this=20
a reasonable definition for starters?&nbsp; If so, we can then=20
discuss</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D188513115-05102000> the relative merits and disadvantages of=20
each.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px"><FONT=20
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From: Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
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Alessio,

 please see my comments in-line.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:27 PM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> My question is: if some form of policy management will be performed using
> COPS, what makes the PEP/PDP interaction inherently different
> when mobile IP is used?
>
        [MJ]  COPS defines how PEP and PDP interact, but does not define
what they are interacting about. We need a COPS usage that defines the
content of these interactions for mobile IP. I think this point was further
discussed when we had discussed about handling MIP extensions.

> I ask this question without having carefully read the draft,
> but, if you have time, this could make your proposal's
> scope clearer.
>
>
> thanks
>
>
> alessio
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Abderrahmane Lakas[SMTP:alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]
> > Reply To:     Abderrahmane Lakas
> > Sent:         04 October 2000 19:29
> > To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> > ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > The comments to this draft are understood and well taken. Let me just
> > clarify that our intent (authors) is neither to use COPS as a protocol
> for
> > AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS discussion on whatever aspects of
> > management.
> >
> > COPS is used here for non-AAA related aspects of Mobile IP. In our
> draft,
> > we propose a way to notify the PDP with the presence of MN for which
> > policy-related configurations may be applied. COPS looks at the relevant
> > extensions in the registration messages in order to make policy-related
> > decisions. The AAA extensions are handled by AAA authority.
> >
> > We understand that we may not have highlighted it enough in the draft,
> but
> > we are not in any way proposing AAA solution for Mobile IP.
> >
> > Our assumptions here is that AAA handles AAA things, and COPS handles
> > policy-related things. It's not clear yet for us how both coordinate,
> but
> > we assume that the PDP needs to know an MN has attached to the mobility
> > agent, and policies may need to be applied to it. For example, based on
> > the received extensions, the PDP may decide to install the MN's QoS
> > profile. Other extensions that are or will be defined in the future may
> > require some policy-management through COPS.
> >
> > Finally, this proposal has merit only if COPS is used for policy
> > management.
> >
> > - Abderrahmane
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [ mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:07 AM
> > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> >
> > Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if you don't mind, I'll take off
> > the
> > white gloves (not that I wear them *that* often).
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > The IETF has already decided that network access (and specifically
> Mobile
> > IP)
> > authentication, authorization and accounting is done through the
> protocol
> > that
> > was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a potential protocol, and did not
> > succeed.
> >  So may I ask why you insist on opening up the can of worms all over
> > again?
> > Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around been enough?
> >
> > Am I missing something obvious? Or are some COPS people refusing to let
> > the
> > AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion in the marketplace the ultimate
> > goal?
> >
> > PatC
> >
> > > We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> > > announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
> > >
> > > - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > > > To:   rap@iphighway.com
> > > > Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > > > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > > > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > > > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> > > >
> > > > --NextPart
> > > >
> > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > > directories.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> > > >       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> > > >       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >       Pages           : 14
> > > >       Date            : 03-Oct-00
> > > >
> > > > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > > > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > > > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > > > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > > > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > > > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > > > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > > > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > > > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > > > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > > > registration messages.
> > > >
> > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > > > username
> > > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > >       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > > >
> > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > >
> > > > Send a message to:
> > > >       mailserv@ietf.org.
> > > > In the body type:
> > > >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > > >
> > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > > >       MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > > >       feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > > >       command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack"
> or
> > > >       a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> > readers
> > > >       exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > > >       "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been
> split
> > > >       up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
> on
> >
> > > >       how to manipulate these messages.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > > > Internet-Draft.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --NextPart
> > > > Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"
> > > >
> > > > --OtherAccess
> > > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > > >       access-type="mail-server";
> > > >       server="mailserv@ietf.org"
> > > >
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > > > Content-ID:   <20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org>
> > > >
> > > > ENCODING mime
> > > > FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > --OtherAccess
> > > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > > >       name="draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt";
> > > >       site="ftp.ietf.org";
> > > >       access-type="anon-ftp";
> > > >       directory="internet-drafts"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --OtherAccess--
> > > >
> > > > --NextPart--
> >
> >

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Alessio,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;please see my =
comments in-line.</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Casati, Alessio (Alessio) =
[SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:27 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My question is: if some form of policy =
management will be performed using</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">COPS, what makes the PEP/PDP =
interaction inherently different</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">when mobile IP is used?</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[MJ]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> COPS defines how PEP and PDP interact, but =
does not define what they are interacting about. We need a COPS usage =
that defines the content of these interactions for mobile IP. I think =
this point was further discussed when we had discussed about handling =
MIP extensions.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I ask this question without having =
carefully read the draft,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">but, if you have time, this could =
make your proposal's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">scope clearer.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">thanks</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">alessio</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; ----------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; =
From:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Abderrahmane =
Lakas[SMTP:alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Reply =
To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Abderrahmane Lakas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; =
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 04 October 2000 =
19:29</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; =
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; The comments to this draft are =
understood and well taken. Let me just</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; clarify that our intent =
(authors) is neither to use COPS as a protocol for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS =
discussion on whatever aspects of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; management.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; COPS is used here for non-AAA =
related aspects of Mobile IP. In our draft,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; we propose a way to notify the =
PDP with the presence of MN for which</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; policy-related configurations =
may be applied. COPS looks at the relevant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; extensions in the registration =
messages in order to make policy-related</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; decisions. The AAA extensions =
are handled by AAA authority.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; We understand that we may not =
have highlighted it enough in the draft, but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; we are not in any way proposing =
AAA solution for Mobile IP.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Our assumptions here is that AAA =
handles AAA things, and COPS handles</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; policy-related things. It's not =
clear yet for us how both coordinate, but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; we assume that the PDP needs to =
know an MN has attached to the mobility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; agent, and policies may need to =
be applied to it. For example, based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the received extensions, the PDP =
may decide to install the MN's QoS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; profile. Other extensions that =
are or will be defined in the future may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; require some policy-management =
through COPS.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Finally, this proposal has merit =
only if COPS is used for policy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; management.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; - Abderrahmane</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; -----Original =
Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [<U> =
</U></FONT><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM">mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM</=
A></FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, =
2000 10:07 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; To: =
MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Ok, I'll be the first one to =
reply, and if you don't mind, I'll take off</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; white gloves (not that I wear =
them *that* often).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Why?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; The IETF has already decided =
that network access (and specifically Mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; IP)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; authentication, authorization =
and accounting is done through the protocol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; was selected in the AAA WG. COPS =
was a potential protocol, and did not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; succeed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp; So may I ask why you =
insist on opening up the can of worms all over</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; again?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA =
run around been enough?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Am I missing something obvious? =
Or are some COPS people refusing to let</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; AAA do its work? Or is causing =
confusion in the marketplace the ultimate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; goal?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; PatC</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; We have submitted a draft =
defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; announcement is attached =
below. We will appreciate any comments.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; - Muhammad =
Jaseemuddin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; From: =
yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, =
October 04, 2000 7:19 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
rap@iphighway.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; To: IETF-Announce: =
;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; CC: =
rap@iphighway.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; From: =
Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Reply-to: =
Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 =
06:54:46 -0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Sender: =
nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; --NextPart</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; A New Internet-Draft =
is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; directories.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : M. Jaseemuddin, A. =
Lakas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
14</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
: 03-Oct-00</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; Mobile IP is a =
protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; of IP packets to a =
mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; address in the foreign =
network and registers that address with the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; home agent. The home =
agent as well as the foreign agent can apply</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; policies to the mobile =
node registration. This draft defines COPS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; [1] usage for Mobile =
IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; control Mobile IP =
registration based on policies. It defines the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; interactions between =
the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; registration messages. =
It also provides a guideline for mobility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; agents on how to use =
this COPS client with regards to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; registration =
messages.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &gt; &gt; A URL for this =
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Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
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From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
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Pete,

Some initial comments below, Karim will probably add to my comments.

> "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE> (KE) writes:
>
> KE> Proactive Handoffs draft = draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02
> KE> Fast Handoffs draft = draft-elmalki-mobileip-fast-handoffs-03
>
> KE> 1) The Fast Handoffs draft allows both the network and the
> KE> MN to control L3 handoffs just as normal Mobile IP (RFC2002).
> KE> The MN performs Mobile IP Registrations and is therefore in
> KE> control as to when and with which agent it registers. The
> KE> network is also in control since it may decide whether to
> KE> send the MN an agent advertisement to trigger the MN's
> KE> movement (without which the MN will not perform movement
> KE> detection and MIP Registration). The network may also
> KE> advertise but reject the MN's Registration and thus again
> KE> exercise control. In Proactive handoffs the MN has no control
> KE> over the handoff and may only react to the network-controlled
> KE> handoff after it has obtained L2 connectivity to the new FA
> KE> and starts receiving data from it. Thus the handoff
> KE> is forced on the MN and the MN may only react if and
> KE> when the new FA decides to advertise.
>
> The terms "control" and "force" should be taken with a grain of salt
> here.  It is true that the MN, in the Proactive draft, does not
> receive an agent advertisement before the handoff, but this is for a
> very good reason: we are decoupling the Mobile IP layer-3 handoff from
> the underlying layer-2 handoff.  In typical cellular link layers,
> there is no time for the Mobile IP protocol (advert/request/response)
> to run before the actual handoff must be over and done with and
> connectivity to the old FA is lost.
>
        How did you make that conclusion ? Of course there is time.
        There is lots of messaging that goes on in a "typical" cellular
        handoff. Can you be more specific ?

> To use Karim's Fast Handoff draft, you need to make sure that the
> advert/request/response can run after link-layer power measurements
> indicate a likely handoff, but before connectivity to the current
> FA is lost.  This imposes very tight real-time requirements on the
> MIP client implementation that we were unwilling to impose in the
> Proactive draft - my feeling is that this runs counter to the Internet
> design philosophy.
>
        Which design philosophy is that ? RFC 2002 ? because that's what
        the draft tries to maintain. Again can you please be specific ?

>  You can think of Proactive handoffs as a way to
> remove the layer-3 messaging from the critical handoff path; the
> network proactively sets up a tunnel from the old point of attachment
> to the new point of attachment, and the MN can register there at its
> leisure.
>
        Actually I think it attempts to remove L3 signalling from the MN for

        an unspecified period of time.

> KE> 2) The Fast Handoffs draft allows the MN to register with
> KE> the new FA (or GFA) before it moves and before it obtains L2
> KE> connectivity to that new FA, thus anticipating the MN's
> KE> movement. By interacting with L2 it is possible for the
> KE> FA to synchronize such a registration with the cellular
> KE> network's mobility such that the new Registration is
> KE> completed before the MN is instructed to perform a handoff
> KE> at L2. Local HA functionality (GFA) is used to limit the
> KE> RTT for the MN's registration. In this way we potentially
> KE> eliminate the service disruption caused by L3 handoffs and
> KE> limit the MN's service disruption period to that imposed by
> KE> the specific L2.
>
> Again, this indicates a pretty tight real-time coupling between the
> MIP client and the L2 that we wanted to avoid.
>
        In the MIP client ? where does the draft say or imply that ?

>  Registering after
> the L2 handoff removes this dependency.  Also it eliminates the
> configuration headaches that are implicit in the Fast Handoffs
> scheme: how does the current FA get the advertisement from the
> next FA, how does it propagate the registration over multiple
> routing hops, and how does the new FA associate the registration
> with the soon-to-be-established link-layer connection?
>
        I'm surprised you're bringing this up again. Please refer to our
        previous discussion in the archive and the draft.

        While we're repeating questions :
        How does a proactive FA get the "next" FA's IP address ?


> KE> 4) It is not clear in the proactive approach how an intersystem
> KE> handoff is handled. For example a handoff occuring between two
> KE> different wireless technologies. If the proactive approach is
> KE> to be used for handoffs, and if the MN has a choice of two
> KE> different systems, it is not possible for the MN to choose which
> KE> FA it wants to be connected to (until after the MN has been handed
> KE> off to the new FA). Hence a handoff may result in connecting the
> KE> MN to a less preferred FA. This is especially true if the FAs
> KE> choose not to send agent advertisements for very long periods as
> KE> suggested by the draft. This situation will not arise in Fast
> KE> Handoffs.
>
> Inter-system handoffs using the same technology are exactly where
> the Proactive approach is intended to be used.  The neighboring FAs
> know about each other and have a security association, in the same
> way that neighboring Radio Access Networks in today's cellular systems
> know about each other (otherwise they would not be able to perform
> a hard handoff).  When a handoff from one to another is indicated,
> a proactive tunnel is set up and the handoff indication is sent to
> the MN.  No involvement from the MN's MIP client is required until
> after the real-time handoff is complete.
>
> For inter-system handoffs using different technologies, I don't see
> why the network needs to provide any special support over RFC 2002.
> The MN can presumably use both technologies simultaneously (otherwise
> the handoff cannot possibly be smooth) and can listen for
> advertisements on both devices.
>
        What if the FA's are proactive and are configured not to advertise
for very
        long periods ? Your proposal takes us away from RFC 2002 and that's
        the price you pay.

>  When the MN chooses, and without any
> special assistance from the network, it may register on the new
> technology (let's say, 802.11) and allow its old registration (let's
> say, on the cdma2000 network) to expire.  In the meantime, who cares
> if the MN was momentarily connected to a new cdma2000 RAN?  The
> temporary proactive handoff provides service to the MN while it is
> registering on the 802.11 network, and the MN wasn't required to do
> anything!
>
        Again please refer to my comment above.

> KE> 5) The proactive draft states that a FA MAY choose to send an
> KE> Agent Advertisement to the MN after the handoff has taken place.
> KE> The length of time after which the advertisement is sent is
> KE> unclear. If simultaneous bindings are used (which is suggested by
> KE> the draft), this will result in long lifetimes for the
> KE> simultaneous bindings and consequently an inefficient use of
> KE> bandwidth since multiple copies of the same packet are transmitted
> KE> to FAs. In Fast Handoffs simultaneous bindings will have short
> KE> lifetimes in order to minimize bandwidth consumption.
>
> Obviously, the network operator must decide how to set these parameters
> for optimal network utilization.  If registration is not required for
> some time then use of the 'S' bit may not be appropriate.
>
        The use of S bit was introduced in Fast Handoffs to reduce the
        service interruption. I don't understand the point of associating
its
        use with the registration lifetime. It's needed because it's
important,
        not because it's convenient when the registraion lifetime is short.

> However, if it is possible for the MN to "ping-pong" between two
> different FAs very rapidly, then the simultaneous registrations are
> quite useful - multiple copies of packets are exactly what is desired,
> on copy transmitted from the old FA (if a link layer connection to the
> MN exists there) and another copy from the new FA (again, if a link
> layer connection to the MN exists there).  Forcing the MN to send MIP
> registrations on each ping-pong event is likely to lead to much
> greater strain on the MIP client implementation.
>
        Ok so are you saying that FA's can predict whether ping pong will
happen
        or not before the handoff and then decide whether S bit should be
used or not ?
        It does't sound reasonable to me, hence the point made above.
        Either you use it or not, if you do, then the point above is
relevant and if you
        don't then you have to remove the claims of fixing the ping pong
problem in
        the proactive draft.

> In summary, I think the Fast Handoffs draft has some hidden costs
> associated with it (tight L2 coupling, configuration of adverts from
> neighbor FAs, getting "remote" registration to work properly) that may
> not be immediately obvious on a first read-through.
>
        Could you please be specific ? What are the coupling costs compared
to
        proactive ?

> The Proactive
> draft requires some extra support from the network elements but allows
> us to use a completely vanilla (non real-time) RFC 2002 MIP client
> implementation.
>
        What is a non-real time client ?

> The frequency of advertisements/registrations can be
> adjusted for optimum end-to-end performance without regard to the rate
> of handoffs in the underlying L2 technology.
>
        Yes I realise that, and as I said earlier some of the points Karim
sent shows
        the consequence of loosening the requirements on FA's to advertise.
I'm not saying
        they have to avertise regularly but we believe they MUST advertise
during a handoff.

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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff =
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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Pete, </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Some initial =
comments below, Karim will probably add to my comments.</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot;Karim El-Malki (ERA)&quot; =
&lt;Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE&gt; (KE) writes:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; Proactive Handoffs draft =3D =
draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; Fast Handoffs draft =3D =
draft-elmalki-mobileip-fast-handoffs-03</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; 1) The Fast Handoffs draft =
allows both the network and the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; MN to control L3 handoffs just =
as normal Mobile IP (RFC2002).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; The MN performs Mobile IP =
Registrations and is therefore in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; control as to when and with =
which agent it registers. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; network is also in control =
since it may decide whether to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; send the MN an agent =
advertisement to trigger the MN's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; movement (without which the MN =
will not perform movement</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; detection and MIP =
Registration). The network may also</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; advertise but reject the MN's =
Registration and thus again</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; exercise control. In Proactive =
handoffs the MN has no control</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; over the handoff and may only =
react to the network-controlled</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; handoff after it has obtained =
L2 connectivity to the new FA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; and starts receiving data from =
it. Thus the handoff</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; is forced on the MN and the MN =
may only react if and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; when the new FA decides to =
advertise.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The terms &quot;control&quot; and =
&quot;force&quot; should be taken with a grain of salt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">here.&nbsp; It is true that the MN, =
in the Proactive draft, does not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">receive an agent advertisement before =
the handoff, but this is for a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">very good reason: we are decoupling =
the Mobile IP layer-3 handoff from</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the underlying layer-2 handoff.&nbsp; =
In typical cellular link layers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">there is no time for the Mobile IP =
protocol (advert/request/response)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to run before the actual handoff must =
be over and done with and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">connectivity to the old FA is =
lost.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">How did you make =
that conclusion ? Of course there is time.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">There is lots of =
messaging that goes on in a &quot;typical&quot; cellular</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">handoff. Can you be =
more specific ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To use Karim's Fast Handoff draft, you =
need to make sure that the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">advert/request/response can run after =
link-layer power measurements</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">indicate a likely handoff, but before =
connectivity to the current</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">FA is lost.&nbsp; This imposes very =
tight real-time requirements on the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MIP client implementation that we =
were unwilling to impose in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Proactive draft - my feeling is that =
this runs counter to the Internet</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">design philosophy.</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Which design =
philosophy is that ? RFC 2002 ? because that's what </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the draft tries to =
maintain. Again can you please be specific ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;You can think of Proactive =
handoffs as a way to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">remove the layer-3 messaging from the =
critical handoff path; the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">network proactively sets up a tunnel =
from the old point of attachment</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to the new point of attachment, and =
the MN can register there at its</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">leisure.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Actually I think it =
attempts to remove L3 signalling from the MN for </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">an unspecified =
period of time.</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; 2) The Fast Handoffs draft =
allows the MN to register with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; the new FA (or GFA) before it =
moves and before it obtains L2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; connectivity to that new FA, =
thus anticipating the MN's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; movement. By interacting with =
L2 it is possible for the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; FA to synchronize such a =
registration with the cellular</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; network's mobility such that =
the new Registration is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; completed before the MN is =
instructed to perform a handoff</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; at L2. Local HA functionality =
(GFA) is used to limit the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; RTT for the MN's registration. =
In this way we potentially</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; eliminate the service =
disruption caused by L3 handoffs and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; limit the MN's service =
disruption period to that imposed by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; the specific L2.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Again, this indicates a pretty tight =
real-time coupling between the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MIP client and the L2 that we wanted =
to avoid.</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In the MIP client ? =
where does the draft say or imply that ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;Registering after</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the L2 handoff removes this =
dependency.&nbsp; Also it eliminates the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">configuration headaches that are =
implicit in the Fast Handoffs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">scheme: how does the current FA get =
the advertisement from the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">next FA, how does it propagate the =
registration over multiple</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">routing hops, and how does the new FA =
associate the registration</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">with the soon-to-be-established =
link-layer connection?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'm surprised you're =
bringing this up again. Please refer to our </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">previous discussion =
in the archive and the draft. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">While we're =
repeating questions :</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">How does a =
proactive FA get the &quot;next&quot; FA's IP address ?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; 4) It is not clear in the =
proactive approach how an intersystem</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; handoff is handled. For =
example a handoff occuring between two</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; different wireless technologies=
. If the proactive approach is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; to be used for handoffs, and =
if the MN has a choice of two</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; different systems, it is not =
possible for the MN to choose which</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; FA it wants to be connected to =
(until after the MN has been handed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; off to the new FA). Hence a =
handoff may result in connecting the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; MN to a less preferred FA. =
This is especially true if the FAs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; choose not to send agent =
advertisements for very long periods as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; suggested by the draft. This =
situation will not arise in Fast</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; Handoffs.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Inter-system handoffs using the same =
technology are exactly where</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the Proactive approach is intended to =
be used.&nbsp; The neighboring FAs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">know about each other and have a =
security association, in the same</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">way that neighboring Radio Access =
Networks in today's cellular systems</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">know about each other (otherwise they =
would not be able to perform</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">a hard handoff).&nbsp; When a handoff =
from one to another is indicated,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">a proactive tunnel is set up and the =
handoff indication is sent to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the MN.&nbsp; No involvement from the =
MN's MIP client is required until</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">after the real-time handoff is =
complete.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For inter-system handoffs using =
different technologies, I don't see</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">why the network needs to provide any =
special support over RFC 2002.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The MN can presumably use both =
technologies simultaneously (otherwise</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the handoff cannot possibly be =
smooth) and can listen for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">advertisements on both =
devices.</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What if the FA's are =
proactive and are configured not to advertise for very </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">long periods ? Your =
proposal takes us away from RFC 2002 and that's</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the price you pay. =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;When the MN chooses, and without =
any</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">special assistance from the network, =
it may register on the new</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">technology (let's say, 802.11) and =
allow its old registration (let's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">say, on the cdma2000 network) to =
expire.&nbsp; In the meantime, who cares</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">if the MN was momentarily connected =
to a new cdma2000 RAN?&nbsp; The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">temporary proactive handoff provides =
service to the MN while it is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">registering on the 802.11 network, =
and the MN wasn't required to do</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">anything!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Again please refer =
to my comment above.</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; 5) The proactive draft states =
that a FA MAY choose to send an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; Agent Advertisement to the MN =
after the handoff has taken place.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; The length of time after which =
the advertisement is sent is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; unclear. If simultaneous =
bindings are used (which is suggested by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; the draft), this will result =
in long lifetimes for the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; simultaneous bindings and =
consequently an inefficient use of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; bandwidth since multiple =
copies of the same packet are transmitted</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; to FAs. In Fast Handoffs =
simultaneous bindings will have short</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">KE&gt; lifetimes in order to minimize =
bandwidth consumption.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Obviously, the network operator must =
decide how to set these parameters</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">for optimal network =
utilization.&nbsp; If registration is not required for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">some time then use of the 'S' bit may =
not be appropriate.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The use of S bit was =
introduced in Fast Handoffs to reduce the </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">service =
interruption. I don't understand the point of associating its</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">use with the =
registration lifetime. It's needed because it's important,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">not because it's =
convenient when the registraion lifetime is short.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">However, if it is possible for the MN =
to &quot;ping-pong&quot; between two</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">different FAs very rapidly, then the =
simultaneous registrations are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">quite useful - multiple copies of =
packets are exactly what is desired,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">on copy transmitted from the old FA =
(if a link layer connection to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MN exists there) and another copy =
from the new FA (again, if a link</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">layer connection to the MN exists =
there).&nbsp; Forcing the MN to send MIP</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">registrations on each ping-pong event =
is likely to lead to much</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">greater strain on the MIP client =
implementation.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ok so are you saying =
that FA's can predict whether ping pong will happen</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">or not before the =
handoff and then decide whether S bit should be used or not ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It does't sound =
reasonable to me, hence the point made above. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Either you use it =
or not, if you do, then the point above is relevant and if you </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">don't then you have =
to remove the claims of fixing the ping pong problem in </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the proactive =
draft.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In summary, I think the Fast Handoffs =
draft has some hidden costs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">associated with it (tight L2 =
coupling, configuration of adverts from</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">neighbor FAs, getting =
&quot;remote&quot; registration to work properly) that may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">not be immediately obvious on a first =
read-through.&nbsp;</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Could you please be =
specific ? What are the coupling costs compared to</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">proactive ? </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The Proactive</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">draft requires some extra support =
from the network elements but allows</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">us to use a completely vanilla (non =
real-time) RFC 2002 MIP client</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">implementation.&nbsp;</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What is a non-real =
time client ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The frequency of =
advertisements/registrations can be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">adjusted for optimum end-to-end perfor=
mance without regard to the rate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of handoffs in the underlying L2 =
technology.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Yes I realise that, =
and as I said earlier some of the points Karim sent shows</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the consequence of =
loosening the requirements on FA's to advertise. I'm not saying </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">they have to =
avertise regularly but we believe they MUST advertise during a =
handoff.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
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From: Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 2:39 PM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> >     I know this is going to get dinged by many of the people I work with
> > (on
> > this list, and in the office), but is there some reason the authors
> can't
> > have
> > an individual submission for an informational RFC?  RFC2356 comes to
> mind
> > (use
> > of SKIP FW traversal in Mobile IP), published by the mobile ip working
> > group
> > in June 1998, after the decision of the IPSec WG (and Jeff Schiller) for
> > ISAKMP/Oakley as the IPSec protocol of choice.  If the authors want to
> > work on
> > this, it doesn't have to be an official working group document (hence
> the
> > name
> > d-jaseem-..., not d-i-mip-...) to get some review from mobile ip WG
> > members
> > willing to read it (if any, and presuming it works).  If the authors
> want
> > to
> > move it to anything more than informational, however, it seems likely to
> > be
> > blocked by the IESG...
> >
> >
> Your line of reasoning is somewhat valid in general terms to me.
>
> However, this intention should have been clear either from the
> posting from the authors or from the abstract.
>
> Neither guides us in that direction. Nor mention of the
> currently selected approach is anywhere in the document.
>
        [MJ]  That depends on the need and the interest of the community.
Discussions in the RAP and Mobile-IP WGs will determine what directions to
take.

> Of course, if they authors to go for an individual info RFC, they can try,
> but I would claim that since COPS is standards track too,
> things may not be as similar to SKIP firewall traversal as it may look
> like
> :).
>
>
> Let's wait and see what the authors want to tell us (if they are on this
> ML)
>
> alessio

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Casati, Alessio (Alessio) =
[SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Wednesday, October 04, 2000 2:39 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I know =
this is going to get dinged by many of the people I work with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; (on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; this list, and in the office), =
but is there some reason the authors can't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; an individual submission for an =
informational RFC?&nbsp; RFC2356 comes to mind</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; (use</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; of SKIP FW traversal in Mobile =
IP), published by the mobile ip working</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; in June 1998, after the decision =
of the IPSec WG (and Jeff Schiller) for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; ISAKMP/Oakley as the IPSec =
protocol of choice.&nbsp; If the authors want to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; work on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; this, it doesn't have to be an =
official working group document (hence the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; name</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; d-jaseem-..., not d-i-mip-...) =
to get some review from mobile ip WG</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; members</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; willing to read it (if any, and =
presuming it works).&nbsp; If the authors want</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; move it to anything more than =
informational, however, it seems likely to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; blocked by the IESG...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Your line of reasoning is somewhat =
valid in general terms to me.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">However, this intention should have =
been clear either from the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">posting from the authors or from the =
abstract.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Neither guides us in that direction. =
Nor mention of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">currently selected approach is =
anywhere in the document.</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[MJ]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> That depends on the need and the interest of =
the community. Discussions in the RAP and Mobile-IP WGs will determine =
what directions to take.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Of course, if they authors to go for =
an individual info RFC, they can try,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">but I would claim that since COPS is =
standards track too,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">things may not be as similar to SKIP =
firewall traversal as it may look like</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">:).</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Let's wait and see what the authors =
want to tell us (if they are on this ML)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">alessio</FONT>
</P>
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From: Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@lucent.com>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [SMTP:acasati@lucent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:35 AM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM; Jaseemuddin, Muhammad
> [WDLN2:AN33:EXCH]
> Cc:   Lakas, Abderrahmane [WDLN2:AN33:EXCH]
> Subject:      RE: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
>
>
>
> >     It seems to me that in case some policies are related
> > to QoS, then a QoS client is better suited than a MIP client.
> > maybe we could define MIP QoS extensions that could be used by
> > (that is are compatible with) the COPS RSVP client (just as a dumb
> > example).
> >
> >     [MJ]  You are very close to what has motivated us
> >
> Cool!
>
> > . Yes, we can define some MIP extension for QoS, but where that
> extension
> > will be processed? Most likely at PDP. For that, we need to communicate
> > that QoS extension to the PDP. We can do that using COPS-MIP.
> >
> Or COPS RSVP if we are smart enough to reuse work done by others...
>
        [MJ]  You can not do it with the current definition of COPS-RSVP,
unless you extend it to handle MIP messages. But then, most likely you'll
end up with some thing like COPS-MIP and thats what we propose.

> >     I am glad that you mentioned COPS-RSVP. Because, that helps
> > understand COPS-MIP as it is analogous to COPS-RSVP. They both use the
> > same COPS signaled policy model. However COPS-RSVP is designed to
> > understand and handle RSVP objects. In order to handle MIP extensions,
> we
> > need a new COPS client that understands and handle MIP extensions.
> That's
> > what we think COPS-MIP is for.
> >
> I would regard COPS MIP as useful as COPS IP. The fact a user is moving
> should not
> affect policy mechanisms.
>
>
        [MJ]  I am not sure if I understand what you mean my COPS IP. Anyway
I suggest that we take COPS related discussion to RAP WG where this draft
was submitted. Comments on this draft for MIP related issues are welcome
here.

> >     If instead you are talking about roaming policies, then probably
> > they
> > could naturally fit within the AAA framework.
> > Any user profile can also be
> > downloaded to a PEP (which does not necessarily speak COPS) when
> > the user registers and as such the home AAA server is queried.
> > This is somehow consistent with the HSS model...
> > The envelope of such profiles may
> > not be COPS. It may be part of the AAA protocol (more usefully, I think)
>
> >
> >     [MJ]  Yes the roaming policies are most likely handled by AAA
> > server, and if the PDP needs information about them, then the PDP can
> > communicate with the AAA server. But, whichever mechanisms are used to
> > handle roaming policies, should not affect COPS-MIP.
> >
> If COPS MIP won't exist, as I personally think, this is going to be most
> likely.
>
> >     For other "service specific" policy, again, the MIP extensions
> > possibly should be defined so that they could be used by the
> > client for that specific service.
> >
> >     [MJ]  Which client? If you are talking about COPS client, then that
> > is COPS-MIP.
> >
> >
> Oh well,
>
> If I talk about host routing, somebody thinks I talking about CIP
> If I talk about a COPS client, somebody thinks it is the COPS MIP
> client...
>
> Please, try not to limit your perspective to the work you have done
> (which is pointing out some aspects people could work on, but probably
> it is not the best possible solution).
>
> having said that, I'm still waiting some answers from the backlog
>
> (there's one on authentication handling I'm particularly keen on)
>
>
> Alessio
>

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Casati, Alessio (Alessio) =
[SMTP:acasati@lucent.com]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:35 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM; Jaseemuddin, =
Muhammad [WDLN2:AN33:EXCH]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Lakas, Abderrahmane [WDLN2:AN33:EXCH]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">RE: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It =
seems to me that in case some policies are related </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; to QoS, then a QoS client is =
better suited than a MIP client. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; maybe we could define MIP QoS =
extensions that could be used by </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; (that is are compatible with) =
the COPS RSVP client (just as a dumb</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; example). </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[MJ]&nbsp; You are very close to what has motivated us</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cool!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; . Yes, we can define some MIP =
extension for QoS, but where that extension</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; will be processed? Most likely =
at PDP. For that, we need to communicate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; that QoS extension to the PDP. =
We can do that using COPS-MIP.&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Or COPS RSVP if we are smart enough =
to reuse work done by others...</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[MJ]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">You can not do it with the current definition of =
COPS-RSVP, unless you extend it to handle MIP messages. But then, most =
likely you'll end up with some thing like COPS-MIP and thats what we =
propose.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I =
am glad that you mentioned COPS-RSVP. Because, that helps</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; understand COPS-MIP as it is =
analogous to COPS-RSVP. They both use the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; same COPS signaled policy model. =
However COPS-RSVP is designed to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; understand and handle RSVP =
objects. In order to handle MIP extensions,&nbsp; we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; need a new COPS client that =
understands and handle MIP extensions. That's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; what we think COPS-MIP is =
for.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would regard COPS MIP as useful as =
COPS IP. The fact a user is moving</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">should not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">affect policy mechanisms.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[MJ]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">I am not sure if I understand what you mean my =
COPS IP. Anyway I suggest that we take COPS related discussion to RAP =
WG where this draft was submitted. Comments on this draft for MIP =
related issues are welcome here.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If =
instead you are talking about roaming policies, then probably</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; they </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; could naturally fit within the =
AAA framework. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Any user profile can also be =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; downloaded to a PEP (which does =
not necessarily speak COPS) when </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the user registers and as such =
the home AAA server is queried. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; This is somehow consistent with =
the HSS model... </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; The envelope of such profiles =
may </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; not be COPS. It may be part of =
the AAA protocol (more usefully, I think) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[MJ]&nbsp; Yes the roaming policies are most likely handled by =
AAA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; server, and if the PDP needs =
information about them, then the PDP can</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; communicate with the AAA server. =
But, whichever mechanisms are used to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; handle roaming policies, should =
not affect COPS-MIP.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If COPS MIP won't exist, as I =
personally think, this is going to be most</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">likely.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
For other &quot;service specific&quot; policy, again, the MIP =
extensions </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; possibly should be defined so =
that they could be used by the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; client for that specific =
service. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[MJ]&nbsp; Which client? If you are talking about COPS client, then =
that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; is COPS-MIP. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Oh well, </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If I talk about host routing, somebody =
thinks I talking about CIP</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If I talk about a COPS client, =
somebody thinks it is the COPS MIP client...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please, try not to limit your =
perspective to the work you have done</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(which is pointing out some aspects =
people could work on, but probably</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">it is not the best possible =
solution).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">having said that, I'm still waiting =
some answers from the backlog</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(there's one on authentication =
handling I'm particularly keen on)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Alessio</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C02F10.B8128EA0--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 19:06:44 2000
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Message-ID:  <976F7C55E3B2D111A0720008C728549C0487732D@en0060exch001u.uk.lucent.com>
Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:04:41 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@nortelnetworks.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

>       [MJ]  COPS defines how PEP and PDP interact, but does not define
> what they are interacting about. We need a COPS usage that defines the
> content of these interactions for mobile IP.
>
>
My question is why do you really need to
define a new COPS client for MIP extensions that do not exist
which could anyway be defined to be compatible with existing
COPS clients. It all boils down to having a reason why
one should have a different COPS client for a dial-up user or
a mobile IP user to handle QoS policies when the user is roaming.

If you provide such reason, then I believe we will have
understood the reason why you are proposing this new COPS client.



alessio


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct  5 19:18:00 2000
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Date:         Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:13:45 -0700
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From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <976F7C55E3B2D111A0720008C728549C0487732D@en0060exch001u.uk.lucent.com>

Let me perhaps rephrase Alessio's question.

Assuming, as you stated, that you aren't trying to do what AAA is doing (that
is authentication, authorization and accounting), why is a Mobile IP client
different from a PPP or ethernet client?

If the mobile node wants to send an RSVP request to the network to allocate
resources (or if a provisioning model is used), why is another COPS extension
required?

I think that Alessio sent a question that remained unanswered. This question
had to do with authentication of the mobile node (Specifically the
authentication extension). This is starting to smell alot like AAA to me.

Looking forward to your response,

PatC
> >       [MJ]  COPS defines how PEP and PDP interact, but does not define
> > what they are interacting about. We need a COPS usage that defines the
> > content of these interactions for mobile IP.
> >
> >
> My question is why do you really need to
> define a new COPS client for MIP extensions that do not exist
> which could anyway be defined to be compatible with existing
> COPS clients. It all boils down to having a reason why
> one should have a different COPS client for a dial-up user or
> a mobile IP user to handle QoS policies when the user is roaming.
>
> If you provide such reason, then I believe we will have
> understood the reason why you are proposing this new COPS client.
>
>
>
> alessio


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From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin <jaseem@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

>       > . Yes, we can define some MIP extension for QoS, but where that
> extension
> > will be processed? Most likely at PDP. For that, we need to communicate
> > that QoS extension to the PDP. We can do that using COPS-MIP.
> >
> Or COPS RSVP if we are smart enough to reuse work done by others...
>
>       [MJ]  You can not do it with the current definition of COPS-RSVP,
> unless you extend it to handle MIP messages. But then, most likely you'll
> end up with some thing like COPS-MIP and thats what we propose.
>
I happen to work on a box called GGSN.  We have a RADIUS client that uses
protocol configuration options carried in a protocol called GTP.
These are collected from a PPP authentication phase that runs
between a mobile terminal and a Terminal equipment (basically a phone
and a laptop, to exemplify) and transported across a wireless access
network,
using the radio interface layer 3, and an UMTS backbone, using GTP, to the
GGSN.

Despite the fact this specific radius client interacts with a protocol that
is not
PPP, so far we have not come to the IETF to ask the addition of a RADISU GTP
client.

This tale is to say that independent of the name of the envelope it is
possible
to reuse existing specs.

> I would regard COPS MIP as useful as COPS IP. The fact a user is moving
> should not
> affect policy mechanisms.
>
>
>       [MJ]  I am not sure if I understand what you mean my COPS IP.
>
BY COPS IP I mean a thing with not much use. It does not exist.
You are then more or less in a situation close to mine, since, so
far, I have not enough elements to understand what COPS MIP is.
An applicability example would help (not based on yet to be defined
extensions). I miss the Compelling reason.

thanks

alessio


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Reply-To: Craig Cameron <craigc@CASSIUS.ITS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
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From: Craig Cameron <craigc@CASSIUS.ITS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Evaluation of mobility management schemes
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
Is this paper publicly available?  I've had a look on Andrew's web page =
and haven't managed to find it.
http://comet.columbia.edu/~campbell/andrew/publications/publications.html=
.  Can anyone tell me where I can get it from?

I've just finished implementing the interesting bits of HAWAII on MIT's =
ANTS Active Network platform and am very interested in the differences =
between Cellular IP and  HAWAII.

Craig Cameron
University of Melbourne
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Hesham Soliman (EPA)=20
  To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM=20
  Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?

  WG in Pittsburgh, Andrew Campbell mentioned=20
  that he was a co-author on a paper that did an evaluation / comparison =
of the various=20
  mobility management schemes. I've read that paper, and on the handoff =
issue, it was=20
  concluded that there were no significant differences between HMIP, CIP =
and HAWAII.=20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type=20
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"><DEFANGED-META=20
CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII" =
HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type"><DEFANGED-META=20
CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2652.35" NAME=3D"Generator">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is this paper publicly available?&nbsp; =
I've had a=20
look on Andrew's web page and haven't managed to find it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://comet.columbia.edu/~campbell/andrew/publications/publicati=
ons.html">http://comet.columbia.edu/~campbell/andrew/publications/publica=
tions.html</A>.&nbsp;=20
Can anyone tell me where I can get it from?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've just finished implementing the =
interesting=20
bits of HAWAII on MIT's ANTS Active Network platform and am&nbsp;very =
interested=20
in&nbsp;the&nbsp;differences between Cellular IP and =
&nbsp;HAWAII.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Craig Cameron</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>University of Melbourne</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DHesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU=20
  href=3D"mailto:Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU">Hesham Soliman =
(EPA)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  title=3DMOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM">MOBILE-IP@STANDARD=
S.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 04, =
2000 8:19=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are =
requirements=20
  required?</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>WG in Pittsburgh, =
Andrew Campbell=20
  mentioned </FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>that =
he was a=20
  co-author on a paper that did an evaluation / comparison of the =
various</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>mobility management =
schemes. I've=20
  read that paper, and on the handoff issue, it was </FONT><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>concluded that there were no significant =
differences=20
  between HMIP, CIP and HAWAII.</FONT> =
<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 04:50:26 2000
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Reply-To: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
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From: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Pete

I would like to add something to Hesham's comments:

> Again, this indicates a pretty tight real-time coupling between the
> MIP client and the L2 that we wanted to avoid.  Registering after
> the L2 handoff removes this dependency.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. We want coupling between
the MIP agent (FA) and L2. That's the same for Proactive so I don't
see a difference. Point 2) in the list of differences talks about this.

>
> In summary, I think the Fast Handoffs draft has some hidden costs
> associated with it (tight L2 coupling, configuration of adverts from
> neighbor FAs, getting "remote" registration to work properly) that may
> not be immediately obvious on a first read-through.

Both drafts involve costs on the network-side. That's all I think we
can say and there's no "hidden" costs. In my view, a more appropriate
question to be asked when looking at the two drafts is: should the MN
be involved in the L3 handoff or not?

> The Proactive
> draft requires some extra support from the network elements but allows
> us to use a completely vanilla (non real-time) RFC 2002 MIP client
> implementation.

As above, this is not a difference.
I think that you can't claim to have a more RFC2002-compatible
draft, maybe the opposite is the case given that in Proactive handoffs
the network (FA) registers on behalf of the MN.

> The frequency of advertisements/registrations can be
> adjusted for optimum end-to-end performance without regard to the rate
> of handoffs in the underlying L2 technology.

Again, I think we can do this same adjustment, without relating
to the rate of handoffs in the underling L2 technology. There is
definitely no assumption that a L2 handoff will involve a L3 handoff.
What we do is link the minimum rate of advertisement/registrations with
the rate of L3 handoffs (change of FA) which is what RFC2002 does.
This is different from Proactive, where there is no guarantee that
a L3 handoff will involve an advertisement/registration.

Regards,
Karim


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From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Hierarchical MIPv6 mobility management
        Author(s)       : H. Soliman, C. Castellucia, K. Malki,
                          L. Bellier
        Filename        : draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00.txt
        Pages           : 16
        Date            : 05-Oct-00

This draft introduces some extensions for MIPv6 and neighbour
discovery to allow for the introduction of a hierarchical MIPv6
mobility management model. The proposed hierarchical mobility
management for MIPv6 will reduce the amount of signalling to CNs and
the HA and may also improve the performance of MIPv6 in terms of
handoff speed. Moreover, HMIPv6 is well-suited to implement access
control and handoffs between different access technologies.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 09:32:09 2000
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From: "Andrew T. Campbell" <campbell@comet.columbia.edu>
Organization: Center for Telecommunications Research
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Evaluation of mobility management schemes
X-To:         Craig Cameron <craigc@CASSIUS.ITS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
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Hello Craig:

The paper is still under review for a conference.

We will release the paper and the NS code for used
to compare CIP, Hawaii and HFA.

We could also submit this to the working group
as a personal ID. Or if its deemed out of scope
to the new WG. We can do that for the next meeting.

Thanks for your interest.

Andrew


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 09:39:54 2000
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Reply-To: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
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From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         "charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Charlie,


> ----------
> From:         Charles E. Perkins
> Reply To:     charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
> Sent:         Thursday, October 5, 2000 5:54 AM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
>
> Hello Sandy,
>
> > There is no question about the following statement
> > you make regarding Mobile IP:
> > > "as it's currently
> > > defined will have trouble completing a "handoff" in
> > > time to keep from noticing a glitch in service if
> > > it's being used to support a realtime service."
>
> I would like to raise a lot of doubt about this statement.
>
> There is nothing in Mobile IP that prevents the mobile
> node from knowing _EXACTLY_ when to register a new
> care-of address.
>
> There is nothing in Mobile IP that _ASSURES_ that the
> mobile node discovers exactly when to register a new
> care-of address.
>
> Mobile IP does NOT OFFER A SOLUTION for notifying
> the mobile node about the completely optimal time
> when to register a new care-of address.  The solutions
> provided are not meant to stand in the way of any other
> better solution that might be available.
>
> A mobile node IS ALLOWED, by any means deemed expedient,
> to discover when to register a care-of address.
>
> This has a much different truth value than the quoted
> statement above.
>
> For example, suppose a mobile node hears an advertisement
> (from another protocol) 1000 times a second, that contains
> a care-of address, it will be able to execute perfectly
> smooth handovers.  Just as an example.  No one says you
> have to do it this way, and no one says you cannot do
> it this way.  The protocol says you cannot issue RFC 1256
> Router Advertisements this often, but nobody says you
> cannot do it another way.
>
> Bottom line is that a mobile node, using Mobile IP,
> _possibly_ but _not necessarily_ in conjunction with
> other protocols, _MAY_ be able to execute a perfectly
> smooth handover without any glitches.
>
> Maybe I didn't say this the right way or the politically
> correct way, but I hope it is clear.  It's a little
> frustrating over the years to hear Mobile IP be so often
> dinged for not doing a thing it was explicitly designed
> to avoid doing. The whole point was to enable the
> development of link-specific or system-specific solutions
> since no general methods seem to be widely agreed upon
> as applicable.  Link-specific and system-specific solutions
> have more limited interoperability, but that is just the
> way it is.
>
I think I've digested all the wording here and I think I agree.  Perhaps if
I'd said "Mobile IP as it's currently defined wil have trouble ... on a lot
of systems in which people seem to be interested in using it" you would have
been more sympathetic?   No doubt one could send 1000 advertisements a
second in some systems, but probably not in most cellular systems.  And no
doubt one might be able to implement a link layer that could be engineered
to automatically generate an advertisement at a mobile without sending it
over the air.   Might we also agree that the number of proposals being
generated in the working group to improve handoff performance gives the
impression that maybe some things could be done to modify MIP to make it a
little better for this in the context of some real systems?
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 09:48:54 2000
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Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:44:47 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
X-To:         "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <5F05C89FB2F8D211B6430008C791912703EA81AE@esealnt190>

>
> > The Proactive
> > draft requires some extra support from the network elements but allows
> > us to use a completely vanilla (non real-time) RFC 2002 MIP client
> > implementation.
>
> As above, this is not a difference.
> I think that you can't claim to have a more RFC2002-compatible
> draft, maybe the opposite is the case given that in Proactive handoffs
> the network (FA) registers on behalf of the MN.

Only within its own infrastructure. The I-D does not allow the FA to register
with the Home Agent on behalf of the Mobile Node. Given that the Mobile Node
has already registered with its Home Agent through the Foreign Agent, the
local network simply "extends" the registration through another Foreign Agent
that it also owns.

So, there are no changes to the mobile node, or Home Agent.

I believe that Pete's common on real time has to do with the current state of
some cellular networks. In some of these technologies, the Mobile gets a
message, informing it to do a handoff. There is no extra time for the mobile
to register. Tom Hiller stated this on the v4 handoff design team conference
call, but I believe you weren't on that particular call.

PatC


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Reply-To: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> ----------
> From:         Steven Glass - Solaris Software
> Reply To:     Steven Glass - Solaris Software
> Sent:         Thursday, October 5, 2000 2:03 AM
> To:   Roberts Philip-qa3445
> Cc:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> > I thought the AAA working group had already eliminated COPS as a AAA
> > protocol.  If so, please explain why we should be considering COPS in
> MIP?
>
>     I know this is going to get dinged by many of the people I work with
> (on
> this list, and in the office), but is there some reason the authors can't
> have
> an individual submission for an informational RFC?  RFC2356 comes to mind
> (use
> of SKIP FW traversal in Mobile IP), published by the mobile ip working
> group
> in June 1998, after the decision of the IPSec WG (and Jeff Schiller) for
> ISAKMP/Oakley as the IPSec protocol of choice.  If the authors want to
> work on
> this, it doesn't have to be an official working group document (hence the
> name
> d-jaseem-..., not d-i-mip-...) to get some review from mobile ip WG
> members
> willing to read it (if any, and presuming it works).  If the authors want
> to
> move it to anything more than informational, however, it seems likely to
> be
> blocked by the IESG...
>
>                               Cheers,
>                                   Steve
>
Steve,

        I agree 100% with what you've written.  Anyone can submit a personal
draft to this working group and advertise it on this list to get feedback.
My statement was too strong.  I should've asked about the authors' intent
before making the assumptions I made.

Phil



> > > ----------
> > > From:         Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > > Reply To:     Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > > Sent:         Wednesday, October 4, 2000 9:10 PM
> > > To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> > > announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
> > >
> > > - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:   yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > > Sent:   Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > > To:     rap@iphighway.com
> > > Subject:        I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> > >
> > > --NextPart
> > >
> > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > directories.
> > >
> > >
> > >         Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> > >         Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> > >         Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >         Pages           : 14
> > >         Date            : 03-Oct-00
> > >
> > > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > > registration messages.
> > >
> > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > > username
> > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > >         "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > >
> > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > >
> > >
> > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > >
> > > Send a message to:
> > >         mailserv@ietf.org.
> > > In the body type:
> > >         "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > >
> > > NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > >         MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > >         feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > >         command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack"
> or
> > >         a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> > > readers
> > >         exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > >         "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been
> split
> > >         up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
> on
> > >         how to manipulate these messages.
> > >
> > >
> > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > > Internet-Draft.
> > >
> > >
> > > --NextPart
> > > Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess"
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess
> > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > >         access-type="mail-server";
> > >         server="mailserv@ietf.org"
> > >
> > > Content-Type: text/plain
> > > Content-ID:     <20001003122806.I-D@ietf.org>
> > >
> > > ENCODING mime
> > > FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess
> > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
> > >         name="draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt";
> > >         site="ftp.ietf.org";
> > >         access-type="anon-ftp";
> > >         directory="internet-drafts"
> > >
> > >
> > > --OtherAccess--
> > >
> > > --NextPart--
> > >
> > >
>
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 10:18:10 2000
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Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:07:33 +0300
Reply-To: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankHi

I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is supposed to work
when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.

Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with a challenge
from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a Radius server to
authenticate the MN.

Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a solution in an
earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.

Regards
/Fredrik
-----------------------------------------
Fredrik Johansson

W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
http://www.ipunplugged.com




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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Blank</TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY background=3Dcid:565580313@06102000-2cc1>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000>Hi</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000>I have a question concerning how =
Challenge /=20
Response is supposed to work when a mobile node registers using a =
co-located=20
foreign agent.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000>Since the mobile node does not =
receive an=20
advertisement with a challenge from a FA it cannot calculate a response =
to be=20
used in&nbsp;a MN-AAA Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent =
cannot use=20
a Radius server to authenticate the MN.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000>Have there been any thoughts in =
this area,=20
or perhaps a solution in an earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful =
for any=20
pointers.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000>Regards</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D159184810-06102000>/Fredrik</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT color=3D#808000=20
size=3D2>-----------------------------------------<BR>Fredrik =
Johansson<BR><FONT=20
color=3D#b50038 face=3D"Arial Rounded MT Bold" size=3D4><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: #b50038; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Rounded MT Bold'; =
FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><IMG=20
height=3D53 id=3D_x0000_i1025 src=3D"cid:565580313@06102000-2cba"=20
width=3D338></SPAN></FONT><BR>W: +46 (0)8 725 5916<BR>M: +46 (0)70 786=20
5035<BR></FONT><A =
href=3D"mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com"><FONT=20
size=3D1>mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com</FONT></A><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.ipunplugged.com/" target=3D_blank><FONT=20
size=3D2>http://www.ipunplugged.com</FONT></A> </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 10:54:50 2000
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Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 23:28:08 +0900
Reply-To: Woo-June Kim <wjkim@samsung.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Woo-June Kim <wjkim@samsung.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
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Fredrik,

The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something that must be generated in some special manner. 

cheers

>BlankHi
>
>I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is supposed to work
>when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
>
>Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with a challenge
>from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
>Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a Radius server to
>authenticate the MN.
>
>Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a solution in an
>earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
>
>Regards
>/Fredrik
>-----------------------------------------
>Fredrik Johansson
>
>W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
>M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
>mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
>http://www.ipunplugged.com
>
>
>
>


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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 11:55:24 2000
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From: Gaetan Feige <gfeige@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIP implementation !!!
X-To:         Vipul Gupta <Vipul.Gupta@Eng.Sun.COM>
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Hello all,

Following the question on Mobile-IP implementations on Linux I would like to know if there are some starts of implementation for Windows 2000 ?

I heard the Singapore stack works on windows 98.

Thank you very much

Gaétan



At 14:50 04/10/2000 -0700, Vipul Gupta wrote:
>  The folks behind the SUNY Binghamton implementation have moved
>  on and that implementation is no longer maintained actively.
>  If you are interested in something that works on Linux 2.2, you can try
>  the distribution from Sun Labs at:
>
>  http://playground.sun.com/~vgupta/sunlabs-mobileip-new.tar.gz
>
>  regards,
>
>  vipul
>
>
>  p.s. If you are specifically looking for the Binghamton implementation,
>       a copy can be found at
>
> http://playground.sun.com/pub/mobile-ip/Linux/Linux-MobileIPv101.tar.gz
>
>       be warned, though, the last Linux kernel it was tested on is
>       1.3.58 (or thereabouts) and will not work on 2.2.
>
>       Other Linux implementations are available from:
>
>         o National University of Singapore (http://mip.ee.nus.sg/)
>
>         o Stanford University as part of the Mosquitonet project
>           (http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/)
>
>
>
>> Good morning folks !
>> Can someone please tell me whats going on with
>> the Binghamton UNIs URL for the Linux implementation
>> on Mobile IP? Its been for ages that Im trying to download
>> the files but it seems that the URL doesn't work anymore.
>> Does anyone know if they have any updated versions of the
>> implementation which runs on 2.2.x Kernells?
>>
>> Regards,
>>             Christos
>>
>> --
>> Christos Chrisanthakopoulos
>>
>> INTRACOM S.A.
>> Development Programmes Department
>> Panepistimiou 254
>> 26443  Patras
>> GREECE
>>
>> Tel:  (+30 61) 465153 (direct)
>> E-mail: xchr@intranet.gr
>> URL: www.intracom.gr 



*************************************************************
Gaetan Feige
Technical Consultant                                 
11, rue Camille Desmoulins             TEL:  +33 (0)1 58 04 68 36
92782 Issy Les Moulineaux             FAX: +33 (0)1 58 04 61 00
CEDEX 9 - France                          GSM: +33 (0)6 89 10 82 89

*************************************************************


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 12:31:24 2000
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From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupport in
              IPv6"draft]
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Hello Mohan,

Thanks for your note.

>> When calculating the AH checksum, the mobile node performs
>> the calculation with all data in place.  This means that,
>> during the calculation, the Care-of Address might be in the
>
> Why do you say "might" here ?  It is a bit confusing.

The care-of address is only in the IPv6 header when the
Home Address destination option is present.  It is not required
for all packets to contain the Home Address destination option,
for instance if the mobile node is at home.

In fact, I wish it were not required even when the mobile
node is away from home.  In the future, if my fantasy comes
true and ingress filtering is abolished, there will no longer
be such a need for this restriction.

My reading of the current specification would be that the
mobile node SHOULD include a Home Address option in every
outgoing packet when it is away from its home domain, and
thus possibly subject to ingress filtering.  Perhaps it would
be good to make this explicit in the draft -- or maybe it
is already in there and I have just not seen it lately.

------------------

>> Of course, this also means that the node receiving a packet
>> with AH will have to follow the same algorithm, which
>> basically just means not moving data fields at all.
>> The only complication comes when it is necessary to look up
>> the appropriate security association for processing either
>> AH or ESP.  That lookup, typically indexed by the
>> Source IP address of the IPv6 header, would instead have
>> to be indexed by the home address in the Home Address
>> destination option.  Since that destination option would
>> occur in the packet _before_ the security header,
>> processing is still very simple.
>
> If you do it this way then other sections need change because
> currently the draft in section 5.4 talks about Home address
> option processing on receipt of a packet :
>
> ... on receipt of a packet with Home Address option,
> the receiving node replaces the Source Address in the IPv6 header
> with the Home Address in the Home Address option.

Right.  If this change were to be made, the specification would
require a very careful re-reading.  All 100 pages of it.
I'd like to find a solution agreeable to everyone, make it
correct and clear (to avoid the current problems of apparent
ambiguity), make it simple and amenable to very natural
processing, and get it done.

The important point here is to find the simple and natural
solution.  I hope you (and others) will be able to give the
following discussion some very careful consideration to help
me make sure I understand the problem before tackling the
final specification.

> I think there are other places. This tells me that the first
> thing i do is swap the addresses (or pointers ) and then
> do the AH computation.

That is sort-of what draft 12 says (apparently subject to
multiple interpretations), isn't it?  It wasn't my proposal,
which was to leave the addresses in place (both on the
transmit side and the receive side).

>                      If this is correct and  working
> out the transmit side based on this,  you would need
> the following:
>
> 1) Insert a home address option with the CoA in it.
> 2) Do the IPsec processing  (this includes SPD lookups which
>    needs the right source address and hence gels in easily)
> 3) swap the addresses in the source field of the IPv6 header with
>   the one in Home Address option after IPsec processing.

I propose, on the transmit side, the following:
1) Put in AH, but leave the authentication field blank.
2) Put in the other fields as needed.
3) Put in the Home Address option with the Home Address
4) Put in the other fields as needed.
5) Put in the IPv6 header, with the Care-of Address in the
   ip6_src field
6) Do the IPsec computation.

It seems to me that all the trouble comes on the receive side,
in deciding what address to pass to the higher level protocols.

If the Home Address option is present, then the receiver is
suddenly required to either:
- change the fields of the received IPv6 header, or
- change the way that data is structured to build the
  pseudo-header for the higher-level protocols.

It seems to me that the latter is preferable, given all of the
other considerations.  If my proposal finds acceptance, then
the programming steps for removing all of the IPv6-level headers
and passing the results to, say, TCP, would require that the
mobile node's actual home address be stored somewhere else
than the received packet header.

Another alternative would be to do some sort of header field
swapping AFTER the AH processing occurs, but that seems even
less natural than doing some sort of swap during the processing
of the Home Address option.

> We just have to describe the bits that pass through AH computation.
> Swapping is just a word to describe the contents of the home
> address option and the ipv6 source address field. This is no
> way modifying the contents of the packet.

... well, it seems like your statement requires a special
meaning for the word "contents".  Maybe you mean "payload"...

> Is the above ambiguous still ? Either way is fine by me
> as long as it is consistent. With your suggestion, you
> have to make sure that all sections that discusses
> about Home Address option processing is clear i.e
> AH before swap or swap before AH ?

What do you think about the "not at all swap" proposal?
Or have I missed something else important here?

Regards,
Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 13:05:03 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

>
> I believe that Pete's common on real time has to do with the
> current state of
> some cellular networks. In some of these technologies, the
> Mobile gets a
> message, informing it to do a handoff. There is no extra time
> for the mobile
> to register. Tom Hiller stated this on the v4 handoff design
> team conference
> call, but I believe you weren't on that particular call.

I am aware of this and am not disagreeing.
My point is that the registration can be done before the Mobile
gets the L2 message informing it to handoff. Thus we require
interworking between L2 and L3 on the network-side (which is
needed anyway) such that L3 registration can occur at the same
time as L2 signalling and such that the L2 handoff message is
sent after the L3 registration. As I wrote in my reply to Pete,
this is what is summed up in point 2) of the list of differences
sent out.

Regards,
Karim


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 13:36:34 2000
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From: Ajoy Singh <asingh1@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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I am aware of this and am not disagreeing.
My point is that the registration can be done before the Mobile
gets the L2 message informing it to handoff. Thus we require
interworking between L2 and L3 on the network-side (which is
needed anyway) such that L3 registration can occur at the same
time as L2 signalling and such that the L2 handoff message is
sent after the L3 registration. As I wrote in my reply to Pete,
this is what is summed up in point 2) of the list of differences
sent out.
>> Can you please be more specific and provide some example in context of
any present or future wireless network ? Please provide some messaging
information and mention
how L3 registartion will be done before L2 handoff is complete. To me it
looks like
that you are assuming too many things which is not be doable in a real
system.

-----Original Message-----
From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
[mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Karim
El-Malki (ERA)
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:03 PM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff
approac hes


>
> I believe that Pete's common on real time has to do with the
> current state of
> some cellular networks. In some of these technologies, the
> Mobile gets a
> message, informing it to do a handoff. There is no extra time
> for the mobile
> to register. Tom Hiller stated this on the v4 handoff design
> team conference
> call, but I believe you weren't on that particular call.

I am aware of this and am not disagreeing.
My point is that the registration can be done before the Mobile
gets the L2 message informing it to handoff. Thus we require
interworking between L2 and L3 on the network-side (which is
needed anyway) such that L3 registration can occur at the same
time as L2 signalling and such that the L2 handoff message is
sent after the L3 registration. As I wrote in my reply to Pete,
this is what is summed up in point 2) of the list of differences
sent out.

Regards,
Karim


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 14:05:48 2000
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Reply-To: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> I am aware of this and am not disagreeing.
> My point is that the registration can be done before the Mobile
> gets the L2 message informing it to handoff. Thus we require
> interworking between L2 and L3 on the network-side (which is
> needed anyway) such that L3 registration can occur at the same
> time as L2 signalling and such that the L2 handoff message is
> sent after the L3 registration. As I wrote in my reply to Pete,
> this is what is summed up in point 2) of the list of differences
> sent out.
> >> Can you please be more specific and provide some example
> in context of
> any present or future wireless network ? Please provide some messaging
> information and mention
> how L3 registartion will be done before L2 handoff is
> complete. To me it
> looks like
> that you are assuming too many things which is not be doable in a real
> system.

The point is that any further specification of the above interaction
of L2/L3 would bring in L2 issues specific to a certain wireless/cellular
system which is what we decided was out of scope. I think that the
above explanation is quite clear.
What is it that we are assuming that is so unrealistic?
I definitely think our assumptions are no less realistic than
those in the Proactive draft, if that is what you meant.

/Karim


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 14:13:31 2000
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Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:09:15 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
X-To:         "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <5F05C89FB2F8D211B6430008C791912703EA81B4@esealnt190>

>
> The point is that any further specification of the above interaction
> of L2/L3 would bring in L2 issues specific to a certain wireless/cellular
> system which is what we decided was out of scope. I think that the
> above explanation is quite clear.

We need to be careful in setting the scope. In my opinion, what is out of
scope is a solution that cannot work with known wireless technologies.

PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 14:13:32 2000
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Message-ID:  <39DE15DD.AF47BB67@iprg.nokia.com>
Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:11:41 -0700
Reply-To: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Phil,

I agree with what I think you are trying to say.

And I don't have a problem with modifying Mobile IP to
fit the needs, say, for seamless handover.  I wanted to
make it clear that (as best I understand it) Mobile IP
was designed to allow interworking with other ways to
get timely information about moving to a new point of
attachment.  I agree with you that the number of current
proposals points out the need to do so.

Roberts Philip-qa3445 wrote:

>
> I think I've digested all the wording here and I think I agree.  Perhaps if
> I'd said "Mobile IP as it's currently defined wil have trouble ... on a lot
> of systems in which people seem to be interested in using it" you would have
> been more sympathetic?   No doubt one could send 1000 advertisements a
> second in some systems, but probably not in most cellular systems.  And no
> doubt one might be able to implement a link layer that could be engineered
> to automatically generate an advertisement at a mobile without sending it
> over the air.   Might we also agree that the number of proposals being
> generated in the working group to improve handoff performance gives the
> impression that maybe some things could be done to modify MIP to make it a
> little better for this in the context of some real systems?

Regards,
Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 15:05:27 2000
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Message-ID:  <NEBBIAJKMGAFBLOHKLJKOEAHCBAA.asingh1@email.mot.com>
Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:58:17 -0500
Reply-To: Ajoy Singh <asingh1@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Ajoy Singh <asingh1@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approach
              hes
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <5F05C89FB2F8D211B6430008C791912703EA81B4@esealnt190>
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The point is that any further specification of the above interaction
of L2/L3 would bring in L2 issues specific to a certain wireless/cellular
system which is what we decided was out of scope.

<<AS> I was not asking you to specify these detail in fast handoff.
Does out of scope mean that any claim about link layer is possible ? <AS>

I think that the
above explanation is quite clear.

What is it that we are assuming that is so unrealistic?

<AS> You are trying to make sure that you will have enough
time, after link layer handoff is detected, to do everything as
specified in section 4 of fast handoff draft before mobile goes out of
range. <AS>

I definitely think our assumptions are no less realistic than
those in the Proactive draft, if that is what you meant.

<AS> In proactive draft, we are not making any claim to register
with mobile node through the old access point before link layer
handoff is complete. We are just talking about some link layer trigger, even
fast
handoff draft talks about that. In quick handoff draft(personal id submitted
by Sebastian and me), we have specified how we can get link layer trigger
without making lot of changes in current L2 technologies. The details are
not included
in proactive draft because of the scope of the mobile/IP protocol. <AS>




-----Original Message-----
From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
[mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Karim
El-Malki (ERA)
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 1:04 PM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff
approac hes


> I am aware of this and am not disagreeing.
> My point is that the registration can be done before the Mobile
> gets the L2 message informing it to handoff. Thus we require
> interworking between L2 and L3 on the network-side (which is
> needed anyway) such that L3 registration can occur at the same
> time as L2 signalling and such that the L2 handoff message is
> sent after the L3 registration. As I wrote in my reply to Pete,
> this is what is summed up in point 2) of the list of differences
> sent out.
> >> Can you please be more specific and provide some example
> in context of
> any present or future wireless network ? Please provide some messaging
> information and mention
> how L3 registartion will be done before L2 handoff is
> complete. To me it
> looks like
> that you are assuming too many things which is not be doable in a real
> system.

The point is that any further specification of the above interaction
of L2/L3 would bring in L2 issues specific to a certain wireless/cellular
system which is what we decided was out of scope. I think that the
above explanation is quite clear.
What is it that we are assuming that is so unrealistic?
I definitely think our assumptions are no less realistic than
those in the Proactive draft, if that is what you meant.

/Karim


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 15:32:16 2000
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Message-ID:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.970860446.27035.pcalhoun@nasnfs.eng>
Date:         Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:27:26 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Comment on draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <NEBBIAJKMGAFBLOHKLJKOEAHCBAA.asingh1@email.mot.com>

I have a comment on draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt, section 4.1, which
reads:

4.1. Regional Registration Flag

   The Agent Advertisement message MAY include a flag indicating
   whether the domain, to which the foreign agent generating the Agent
   Advertisement belongs, supports regional registrations.  The flag
   is inserted in one of the reserved fields, after the flags defined
   in [9].

   The flag is defined as follows:

      I          Regional registration.  This domain supports Regional
                 Registration as specified in this document.


When I implemented this feature, I ended up using a bit that was free
according to [9] (RFC 2002). Unfortunately, as I am adding Reverse Tunneling
support, I see that the bit I had randomly chosen (given the rather vague
directives above) conflicts with Reverse Tunneling.

Could the authors of the above I-D add some clearer directives to implementors?
 Thanks,

PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 15:46:37 2000
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Reply-To: Mohan Parthasarathy <mohanp@LOCKED.ENG.SUN.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Mohan Parthasarathy <mohanp@LOCKED.ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupport in
              IPv6"draft]
X-To:         charliep@iprg.nokia.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

 >
>
> Hello Mohan,
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
> >> When calculating the AH checksum, the mobile node performs
> >> the calculation with all data in place.  This means that,
> >> during the calculation, the Care-of Address might be in the
> >
> > Why do you say "might" here ?  It is a bit confusing.
>
> The care-of address is only in the IPv6 header when the
> Home Address destination option is present.  It is not required
> for all packets to contain the Home Address destination option,
> for instance if the mobile node is at home.
>
> In fact, I wish it were not required even when the mobile
> node is away from home.  In the future, if my fantasy comes
> true and ingress filtering is abolished, there will no longer
> be such a need for this restriction.
>
> My reading of the current specification would be that the
> mobile node SHOULD include a Home Address option in every
> outgoing packet when it is away from its home domain, and
> thus possibly subject to ingress filtering.  Perhaps it would
> be good to make this explicit in the draft -- or maybe it
> is already in there and I have just not seen it lately.
>
In section 7.4,

    -  Every IPv6 mobile node MUST support sending packets containing a
       Home Address option; this option MUST be included in all packets
       sent while away from home, if the packet would otherwise have
       been sent with the mobile node's home address as the IP Source
       Address.

It is a MUST and it is not very easy to figure out what it means
by just reading it once :-)

> ------------------
>
> >> Of course, this also means that the node receiving a packet
> >> with AH will have to follow the same algorithm, which
> >> basically just means not moving data fields at all.
> >> The only complication comes when it is necessary to look up
> >> the appropriate security association for processing either
> >> AH or ESP.  That lookup, typically indexed by the
> >> Source IP address of the IPv6 header, would instead have
> >> to be indexed by the home address in the Home Address
> >> destination option.  Since that destination option would
> >> occur in the packet _before_ the security header,
> >> processing is still very simple.
> >
> > If you do it this way then other sections need change because
> > currently the draft in section 5.4 talks about Home address
> > option processing on receipt of a packet :
> >
> > ... on receipt of a packet with Home Address option,
> > the receiving node replaces the Source Address in the IPv6 header
> > with the Home Address in the Home Address option.
>
> Right.  If this change were to be made, the specification would
> require a very careful re-reading.  All 100 pages of it.
> I'd like to find a solution agreeable to everyone, make it
> correct and clear (to avoid the current problems of apparent
> ambiguity), make it simple and amenable to very natural
> processing, and get it done.
>
> The important point here is to find the simple and natural
> solution.  I hope you (and others) will be able to give the
> following discussion some very careful consideration to help
> me make sure I understand the problem before tackling the
> final specification.
>
> > I think there are other places. This tells me that the first
> > thing i do is swap the addresses (or pointers ) and then
> > do the AH computation.
>
> That is sort-of what draft 12 says (apparently subject to
> multiple interpretations), isn't it?  It wasn't my proposal,
> which was to leave the addresses in place (both on the
> transmit side and the receive side).
>
I should not have used the word swap above. There is ambiguity
and i would like to interpret it as swap.

> >                      If this is correct and  working
> > out the transmit side based on this,  you would need
> > the following:
> >
> > 1) Insert a home address option with the CoA in it.
> > 2) Do the IPsec processing  (this includes SPD lookups which
> >    needs the right source address and hence gels in easily)
> > 3) swap the addresses in the source field of the IPv6 header with
> >   the one in Home Address option after IPsec processing.
>
> I propose, on the transmit side, the following:
> 1) Put in AH, but leave the authentication field blank.
> 2) Put in the other fields as needed.
> 3) Put in the Home Address option with the Home Address
> 4) Put in the other fields as needed.
> 5) Put in the IPv6 header, with the Care-of Address in the
>    ip6_src field
> 6) Do the IPsec computation.
>
At step (6), i have to look at my SPD/SADB for doing IPsec.
Source address could be one of the IPsec selectors. In that
case, the code needs to look for home address option and
if present, do lookups with the Home Address, otherwise
use the CoA. Is this natural ?

> It seems to me that all the trouble comes on the receive side,
> in deciding what address to pass to the higher level protocols.
>
We also need to know the Home address for verifying IPsec policy
checks later. It might be easier if it is present in the IPv6
source address field as that's how the normal code would work
without the option.

> If the Home Address option is present, then the receiver is
> suddenly required to either:
> - change the fields of the received IPv6 header, or
> - change the way that data is structured to build the
>   pseudo-header for the higher-level protocols.
>
> It seems to me that the latter is preferable, given all of the
> other considerations.  If my proposal finds acceptance, then
> the programming steps for removing all of the IPv6-level headers
> and passing the results to, say, TCP, would require that the
> mobile node's actual home address be stored somewhere else
> than the received packet header.
>
> Another alternative would be to do some sort of header field
> swapping AFTER the AH processing occurs, but that seems even
> less natural than doing some sort of swap during the processing
> of the Home Address option.
>
Or change the transmit side processing as i suggested.

> > We just have to describe the bits that pass through AH computation.
> > Swapping is just a word to describe the contents of the home
> > address option and the ipv6 source address field. This is no
> > way modifying the contents of the packet.
>
> ... well, it seems like your statement requires a special
> meaning for the word "contents".  Maybe you mean "payload"...
>
Actually i meant the payload.

> > Is the above ambiguous still ? Either way is fine by me
> > as long as it is consistent. With your suggestion, you
> > have to make sure that all sections that discusses
> > about Home Address option processing is clear i.e
> > AH before swap or swap before AH ?
>
> What do you think about the "not at all swap" proposal?
> Or have I missed something else important here?
>
What we need is the actual bits passed through AH i.e what
does the IPv6 header's source address, detination address
and the home address option contain while doing the
outbound and inbound AH computation. How you derive those
should be left to the implementation. While explaining
the home address option on inbound,  the draft has
to mention that if this option is present, it contains
the home address and this will be needed for IPsec
processing. Why should it talk about updating the
source address field of the IPv6 header ?
How you form the bits to do IPsec AH computation should be
left to the implementation ? We can just describe the contents
of the Ipv6 source address field and the Home address option.

-mohan

> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>


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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
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Hesham, Andrew,

Could you please let me know where the paper co-authored by Andrew on the mobility management approaches can be found?

Thank you,

Madjid Nakhjiri

-----Original Message-----
From: Hesham Soliman (EPA) [mailto:Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU]
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 5:20 PM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?



Hi Sandy,


        > The mobile IP working group is not taking fast handoff from its charter.
> We've consolidated the charter to consider mobile IP based approaches only
> and we hope to end up with two approaches to doing fast handoff based on
> mobile IP - one for v4 and one for v6.  The other working group that is
> being proposed may investigate alternate approaches that are not based on
> mobile IP.

        In my mind, fast-handoff = micro-mobility.  In your
definition,  fast handoff = (some mechanism based on
Mobile IP) whereas micro-mobility = (some mechanism
not based in Mobile IP).  Is this correct? If so,
can you explain what are the necessary conditions for
a mechanism to be classified as being "based on
Mobile IP"?  This is too vague.

        => I was guessing that's what was on your mind, may I ask why
fast handoff = micromobility ?
If we can achieve the performance targets that we're aiming for
using MIP and some extensions wouldn't that be better and much less
complex than inventing new protocols ? Let alon saving years of IETF work ?

        In the second session for MIP WG in Pittsburgh, Andrew Campbell mentioned
that he was a co-author on a paper that did an evaluation / comparison of the various
mobility management schemes. I've read that paper, and on the handoff issue, it was
concluded that there were no significant differences between HMIP, CIP and HAWAII.
Andrew also mentioned that in is presentation.
I may also add that the simulations in that paper did not consider the Fast Handoffs
draft (draft-elmalki- ...) which adds improvements to standard HMIP.
So when I hear this direct association between micro mobility and fast handoffs, I get
a bit confused.




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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?</TITLE>

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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=339451420-06102000>Hesham, Andrew,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=339451420-06102000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=339451420-06102000>Could
you please let me know where the paper co-authored by Andrew on the mobility
management approaches can be found?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=339451420-06102000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=339451420-06102000>Thank
you,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=339451420-06102000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=339451420-06102000>Madjid
Nakhjiri</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Hesham Soliman (EPA)
  [mailto:Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 03,
  2000 5:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
  MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are
  requirements required?<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Hi Sandy, </FONT></P><BR>
  <UL>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; The mobile IP working group is not taking
    fast handoff from its charter.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; We've
    consolidated the charter to consider mobile IP based approaches only</FONT>
    <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; and we hope to end up with two approaches
    to doing fast handoff based on</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;
    mobile IP - one for v4 and one for v6.&nbsp; The other working group that
    is</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt; being proposed may investigate
    alternate approaches that are not based on</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
    size=2>&gt; mobile IP.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>In my mind, fast-handoff = micro-mobility.&nbsp;
    In your</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>definition,&nbsp; fast handoff =
    (some mechanism based on</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mobile IP)
    whereas micro-mobility = (some mechanism</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial
    size=2>not based in Mobile IP).&nbsp; Is this correct? If so,</FONT>
    <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>can you explain what are the necessary
    conditions for</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>a mechanism to be
    classified as being "based on</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mobile
    IP"?&nbsp; This is too vague.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>=&gt; I was guessing that's what
    was on your mind, may I ask why</FONT> <BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
    size=2>fast handoff = micromobility ? </FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff
    face=Arial size=2>If we can achieve the performance targets that we're
    aiming for </FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>using MIP and
    some extensions wouldn't that be better and much less</FONT> <BR><FONT
    color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>complex than inventing new protocols ? Let
    alon saving years of IETF work ?</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>In the second session for MIP WG in
    Pittsburgh, Andrew Campbell mentioned </FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff
    face=Arial size=2>that he was a co-author on a paper that did an evaluation
    / comparison of the various</FONT> <BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
    size=2>mobility management schemes. I've read that paper, and on the handoff
    issue, it was </FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>concluded
    that there were no significant differences between HMIP, CIP and
    HAWAII.</FONT> <BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>Andrew also
    mentioned that in is presentation. </FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
    size=2>I may also add that the simulations in that paper did not consider
    the Fast Handoffs </FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>draft
    (draft-elmalki- ...) which adds improvements to standard HMIP.
    </FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>So when I hear this direct
    association between micro mobility and fast handoffs, I get</FONT> <BR><FONT
    color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>a bit confused.
</FONT></P><BR><BR></UL></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct  6 18:57:43 2000
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From: Abderrahmane Lakas <alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
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Alessio,

First let me say that I agree this section might have introduced some
confusion. It is only meant to capture the requirements of message ordering
for authentication as defined by mobile IP, in case the PDP is involved in
"handling" authentication extensions. The PDP's involvement may be, for
example, in acting as an "attendant" (on behalf of the mobility agent) to
the AAA server before making any policy decision.

As I stated it in my first email, during the writing of this draft, it was
not clear (still is not) for us how AAA would interact with a policy server
to handle common situations. But one should agree that it is hard to see
that section 4 describes any AAA mechanism, or explains the AAA model for
MIP.

- Abderrahmane

-----Original Message-----
From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [mailto:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:40 PM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt


In particular, clarifying why you need this would
be helpful...


4. Handling MIP authentication extensions

If the PDP is delegated to perform authentication,
the PEP MUST send the FLO for the registration message
 followed by an extension object, all encapsulated in a client
SI object. The extension object MUST contain all extensions
 including the authentication extension that the PDP is required
to process, in the order they appear in the message.
See section 3.5 in [4] for the ordering and processing requirements
of authentication extensions, and [5] for AAA requirements.
If an authentication fails, the PDP is required to include
the appropriate authentication failure code in the decision message.

> ----------
> From:         Casati, Alessio (Alessio)[SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
> Reply To:     Casati, Alessio (Alessio)
> Sent:         04 October 2000 20:26
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
>
> My question is: if some form of policy management will be performed using
> COPS, what makes the PEP/PDP interaction inherently different
> when mobile IP is used?
>
> I ask this question without having carefully read the draft,
> but, if you have time, this could make your proposal's
> scope clearer.
>
>
> thanks
>
>
> alessio
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Abderrahmane Lakas[SMTP:alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]
> > Reply To:     Abderrahmane Lakas
> > Sent:         04 October 2000 19:29
> > To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D
> > ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> > The comments to this draft are understood and well taken. Let me just
> > clarify that our intent (authors) is neither to use COPS as a protocol
> for
> > AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS discussion on whatever aspects of
> > management.
> >
> > COPS is used here for non-AAA related aspects of Mobile IP. In our
> draft,
> > we propose a way to notify the PDP with the presence of MN for which
> > policy-related configurations may be applied. COPS looks at the relevant
> > extensions in the registration messages in order to make policy-related
> > decisions. The AAA extensions are handled by AAA authority.
> >
> > We understand that we may not have highlighted it enough in the draft,
> but
> > we are not in any way proposing AAA solution for Mobile IP.
> >
> > Our assumptions here is that AAA handles AAA things, and COPS handles
> > policy-related things. It's not clear yet for us how both coordinate,
> but
> > we assume that the PDP needs to know an MN has attached to the mobility
> > agent, and policies may need to be applied to it. For example, based on
> > the received extensions, the PDP may decide to install the MN's QoS
> > profile. Other extensions that are or will be defined in the future may
> > require some policy-management through COPS.
> >
> > Finally, this proposal has merit only if COPS is used for policy
> > management.
> >
> > - Abderrahmane
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [ mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:07 AM
> > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> >
> >
> > Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if you don't mind, I'll take off
> > the
> > white gloves (not that I wear them *that* often).
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > The IETF has already decided that network access (and specifically
> Mobile
> > IP)
> > authentication, authorization and accounting is done through the
> protocol
> > that
> > was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a potential protocol, and did not
> > succeed.
> >  So may I ask why you insist on opening up the can of worms all over
> > again?
> > Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around been enough?
> >
> > Am I missing something obvious? Or are some COPS people refusing to let
> > the
> > AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion in the marketplace the ultimate
> > goal?
> >
> > PatC
> >
> > > We have submitted a draft defining COPS usage for Mobile IP. The
> > > announcement is attached below. We will appreciate any comments.
> > >
> > > - Muhammad Jaseemuddin
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: yaniv@iphighway.com [SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:19 AM
> > > > To:   rap@iphighway.com
> > > > Subject:      I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > To: IETF-Announce: ;
> > > > CC: rap@iphighway.com
> > > > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > > Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 -0400
> > > > Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us
> > > >
> > > > --NextPart
> > > >
> > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > > > directories.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >       Title           : COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)
> > > >       Author(s)       : M. Jaseemuddin, A. Lakas
> > > >       Filename        : draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >       Pages           : 14
> > > >       Date            : 03-Oct-00
> > > >
> > > > Mobile IP is a protocol that is used to achieve transparent routing
> > > > of IP packets to a mobile node. A mobile node obtains a care-of-
> > > > address in the foreign network and registers that address with the
> > > > home agent. The home agent as well as the foreign agent can apply
> > > > policies to the mobile node registration. This draft defines COPS
> > > > [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. It describes how COPS is used to
> > > > control Mobile IP registration based on policies. It defines the
> > > > interactions between the PEP and the PDP to handle Mobile IP
> > > > registration messages. It also provides a guideline for mobility
> > > > agents on how to use this COPS client with regards to the
> > > > registration messages.
> > > >
> > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
> > > >
> > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > > > username
> > > > "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
> > > > type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > > >       "get draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > > >
> > > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > > > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > > >
> > > > Send a message to:
> > > >       mailserv@ietf.org.
> > > > In the body type:
> > > >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt".
> > > >
> > > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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> > > >
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> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > ENCODING mime
> > > > FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
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> > > > Content-Type: Message/External-body;
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ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Alessio,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>First let me say that I agree this section might have =
introduced some confusion. It is only meant to capture the requirements =
of message ordering for authentication as defined by mobile IP, in case =
the PDP is involved in &quot;handling&quot; authentication extensions. =
The PDP's involvement may be, for example, in acting as an =
&quot;attendant&quot; (on behalf of the mobility agent) to the AAA =
server before making any policy decision.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As I stated it in my first email, during the writing =
of this draft, it was not clear (still is not) for us how AAA would =
interact with a policy server to handle common situations. But one =
should agree that it is hard to see that section 4 describes any AAA =
mechanism, or explains the AAA model for MIP.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>- Abderrahmane</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:acasati@LUCENT.COM">mailto:acasati@LUCENT.COM</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:40 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In particular, clarifying why you need this =
would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>be helpful...</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>4. Handling MIP authentication extensions</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If the PDP is delegated to perform =
authentication,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the PEP MUST send the FLO for the registration =
message</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;followed by an extension object, all =
encapsulated in a client</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>SI object. The extension object MUST contain all =
extensions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;including the authentication extension that =
the PDP is required</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to process, in the order they appear in the =
message.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>See section 3.5 in [4] for the ordering and =
processing requirements</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of authentication extensions, and [5] for AAA =
requirements.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>If an authentication fails, the PDP is required to =
include</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the appropriate authentication failure code in the =
decision message.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ----------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
From:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Casati, Alessio =
(Alessio)[SMTP:acasati@LUCENT.COM]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Reply To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Casati, =
Alessio (Alessio)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 04 October 2000 =
20:26</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: =
[MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; My question is: if some form of policy =
management will be performed using</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; COPS, what makes the PEP/PDP interaction =
inherently different</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; when mobile IP is used?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I ask this question without having carefully =
read the draft,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; but, if you have time, this could make your =
proposal's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; scope clearer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; thanks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; alessio</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; ----------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
From:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Abderrahmane =
Lakas[SMTP:alakas@NORTELNETWORKS.COM]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Reply To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Abderrahmane Lakas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 04 October 2000 =
19:29</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Re: =
[MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; The comments to this draft are understood =
and well taken. Let me just</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; clarify that our intent (authors) is =
neither to use COPS as a protocol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; AAA, nor to open up any AAA-COPS =
discussion on whatever aspects of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; management.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; COPS is used here for non-AAA related =
aspects of Mobile IP. In our</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; draft,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; we propose a way to notify the PDP with =
the presence of MN for which</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; policy-related configurations may be =
applied. COPS looks at the relevant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; extensions in the registration messages in =
order to make policy-related</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; decisions. The AAA extensions are handled =
by AAA authority.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; We understand that we may not have =
highlighted it enough in the draft,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; we are not in any way proposing AAA =
solution for Mobile IP.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Our assumptions here is that AAA handles =
AAA things, and COPS handles</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; policy-related things. It's not clear yet =
for us how both coordinate,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; we assume that the PDP needs to know an MN =
has attached to the mobility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; agent, and policies may need to be applied =
to it. For example, based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; the received extensions, the PDP may =
decide to install the MN's QoS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; profile. Other extensions that are or will =
be defined in the future may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; require some policy-management through =
COPS.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Finally, this proposal has merit only if =
COPS is used for policy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; management.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; - Abderrahmane</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [ <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM">mailto:Pat.Calhoun@ENG.SUN.COM</=
A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:07 =
AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; To: =
MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Ok, I'll be the first one to reply, and if =
you don't mind, I'll take off</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; white gloves (not that I wear them *that* =
often).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Why?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; The IETF has already decided that network =
access (and specifically</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; IP)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; authentication, authorization and =
accounting is done through the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; protocol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; was selected in the AAA WG. COPS was a =
potential protocol, and did not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; succeed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; So may I ask why you insist on =
opening up the can of worms all over</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; again?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Hasn't the past 2 years of AAA run around =
been enough?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Am I missing something obvious? Or are =
some COPS people refusing to let</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; AAA do its work? Or is causing confusion =
in the marketplace the ultimate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; goal?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; PatC</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; We have submitted a draft defining =
COPS usage for Mobile IP. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; announcement is attached below. We =
will appreciate any comments.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; - Muhammad Jaseemuddin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----Original =
Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: yaniv@iphighway.com =
[SMTP:yaniv@iphighway.com]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, =
2000 7:19 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To:&nbsp;&nbsp; =
rap@iphighway.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; =
Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; To: IETF-Announce: ;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; CC: rap@iphighway.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From: =
Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Reply-to: =
Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Subject: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:54:46 =
-0400</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sender: =
nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; --NextPart</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; A New Internet-Draft is =
available from the on-line Internet-Drafts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; directories.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
COPS usage for Mobile IP (MIP)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : M. Jaseemuddin, A. =
Lakas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : =
14</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
: 03-Oct-00</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Mobile IP is a protocol that is =
used to achieve transparent routing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of IP packets to a mobile node. =
A mobile node obtains a care-of-</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; address in the foreign network =
and registers that address with the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; home agent. The home agent as =
well as the foreign agent can apply</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; policies to the mobile node =
registration. This draft defines COPS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; [1] usage for Mobile IPv4 [2]. =
It describes how COPS is used to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; control Mobile IP registration =
based on policies. It defines the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; interactions between the PEP and =
the PDP to handle Mobile IP</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; registration messages. It also =
provides a guideline for mobility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; agents on how to use this COPS =
client with regards to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; registration messages.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
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From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?
X-To:         Sandy Thuel <thuel@lucent.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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        Hi Sandy,

>
> Sorry I didn't get to your email sooner.
>
>       => I was guessing that's what was on your mind, may I ask why
>       fast handoff = micromobility ?
>       If we can achieve the performance targets that we're aiming for
>       using MIP and some extensions wouldn't that be better and much less
>       complex than inventing new protocols ? Let alon saving years of IETF
> work ?
>
>       I think we have a terminology problem that is causing all this
> confusion so let me take a stab at defining these terms based on your
> comments and please correct me if I have misunderstood you:
>
>       fast handoff support: approaches to enhance the handover performance
> of Mobile IP by using existing Mobile IP mechanisms possibly with some
> extensions.
>
>       micro-mobility support: approaches to enhance handover performance
> of Mobile IP by defining new protocols that work in conjunction with
> Mobile IP while not adhering to conventional Mobile IP mechanisms.
>
> Is this a reasonable definition for starters?  If so, we can then discuss
> the relative merits and disadvantages of each.
>
        => I'm not sure if managing micro mobility necessarily means that
new protocols
        are needed. Perhaps MIP with some optimisation can do the job, or
perhaps L2
        can. I just wanted to emphasise two points:

        - The definition of micromobility should be generic and independant
of what protocol
        will be used to solve it, MIP or not. We need to know the problem
first before we can
        say protocol X will fix it.

        - I was questioning the statement you made earlier about
        fast handoffs = micromobility (new protocols). I'm not sure whether
that is necessarily
        true always.

        Cheers,
        Hesham



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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] Are requirements required?</TITLE>
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<BODY>
<UL>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Sandy,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">=A0</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sorry I didn't get =
to your email sooner.</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=3D&gt; I was =
guessing that's what was on your mind, may I ask why</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fast handoff =3D =
micromobility ?</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If we can achieve the =
performance targets that we're aiming for</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">using MIP and some =
extensions wouldn't that be better and much less</FONT><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">complex than =
inventing new protocols ? Let alon saving years of IETF work =
?</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">=A0</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">=A0</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I think we have a =
terminology problem that is causing all this confusion so let me take a =
stab at defining these terms based on your comments and please correct =
me if I have misunderstood you:</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fast handoff =
support: approaches to enhance the handover performance of Mobile IP by =
using existing Mobile IP mechanisms possibly with some =
extensions.=A0</FONT> </P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">micro-mobility =
support: approaches to enhance handover performance of Mobile IP by =
defining new protocols that work in conjunction with Mobile IP while =
not adhering to conventional Mobile IP mechanisms.</FONT></P>
</UL>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Is this a reasonable =
definition for starters?=A0 If so, we can then discuss the relative =
merits and disadvantages of each.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=3D&gt; I'm not sure =
if managing micro mobility necessarily means that new protocols </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">are needed. Perhaps =
MIP with some optimisation can do the job, or perhaps L2 </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">can. I just wanted =
to emphasise two points:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">- The definition of =
micromobility should be generic and independant of what protocol</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">will be used to =
solve it, MIP or not. We need to know the problem first before we can =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">say protocol X will =
fix it.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">- I was questioning =
the statement you made earlier about </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fast handoffs =3D =
micromobility (new protocols). I'm not sure whether that is =
necessarily</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">true always. =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hesham</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
</UL>
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
X-To:         "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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> >
> > The point is that any further specification of the above interaction
> > of L2/L3 would bring in L2 issues specific to a certain
> wireless/cellular
> > system which is what we decided was out of scope. I think that the
> > above explanation is quite clear.
>
> We need to be careful in setting the scope. In my opinion, what is out of
> scope is a solution that cannot work with known wireless technologies.
>
        => I'm sure you have a good reason for saying that, but could you
        please tell us exactly why this can not work with known wireless
        technologies ?

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<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&gt; The point is that any further specification of the above interaction</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&gt; of L2/L3 would bring in L2 issues specific to a certain wireless/cellular</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&gt; system which is what we decided was out of scope. I think that the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">&gt; above explanation is quite clear.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">We need to be careful in setting the scope. In my opinion, what is out of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">scope is a solution that cannot work with known wireless technologies.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">=&gt; I'm sure you have a good reason for saying that, but could you </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">please tell us exactly why this can not work with known wireless </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">technologies ?</FONT>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 05:42:45 2000
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Date:         Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:40:05 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> Abderrahmane;
>
First off, thanks for your answer.

> Alessio,
>
> First let me say that I agree this section might have introduced some
> confusion. It is only meant to capture the requirements of message
> ordering for authentication as defined by mobile IP, in case the PDP is
> involved in "handling" authentication extensions. The PDP's involvement
> may be, for example, in acting as an "attendant" (on behalf of the
> mobility agent) to the AAA server before making any policy decision.
>
>
I agree with you the current text may have generated some confusion.
I  would suggest, if you have time,
you provide an applicability example, based on current
mobile IP extension, of the proposed COPS-MIP client.
This would be very helpful to fully understand your proposal
and to let the Mobile IP list to evaluate it and provide
useful comments.


> As I stated it in my first email, during the writing of this draft, it was
> not clear (still is not) for us how AAA would interact with a policy
> server to handle common situations. But one should agree that it is hard
> to see that section 4 describes any AAA mechanism, or explains the AAA
> model for MIP.
>
I agree that the section does not describe an AAA model for MIP.
In fact, the AAA model for MIP is well defined, and this proposal would seem
to
try to comply with it. That's why there are voices expressing the worry
that this would introduce some overlap/conflict with the work currently
ongoing in
the AAA WG (where after two year a protocol has been selected
to base AAA for network access on).

Your text hints to the possibility to use the PDP to perform
authentication. We need to have a clear understanding of this and other
applicability cases of your proposal. You would probably have to
bring to the list cases (or a single case) supporting the necessity of your
proposal. Could you please do that as soon as you have some
leftover time?  I'd wholeheartedly support any proposals of
necessary building blocks to support policy control in conjunction with
mobile IP. I have to understand whether this is one such building block
we are missing.

Thanks


alessio


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From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Mobile node NAI-extension
X-To:         SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <001001c031e8$eb0ac860$a2388680@kwangwoon.ac.kr>

> Is the NAI-extension (RFC2794) used only for PPP connection ?

No, the RFC you state defines how the NAI is carried within Mobile IP,
regardless of the access method.

>
> or could it be used for non-PPP and general dynamic IP address
> allocation for mobile IP ?

Correct.

>
> If not, please let me know if there is any other dynamic IP address
> allocation method for mobile IP.
The only (and best) one :)

PatC


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From: asmith1722@CHINA.COM
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Noone Can Put You In the Top 10 Positions on Search
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 11:09:55 2000
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Reply-To: mberio@libero.it
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Matteo Berioli <berioli@ZEUS.NT.OP.DLR.DE>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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I would appreciate very much any explanation.
It's a little bit long, but I hope fast and clear!
Thank you.

PROBLEM: Let' s assume we have a Mobile Router, to which a Mobile Host
attaches. We know how the matters work with IPv4 and Mobile IP (see RFC
2002 par: 4.5 page 61-62). The problem is here that we have a double
re-direction of each packet directed to the Mobile Host. As a matter of
fact, each packet has to pass through the Home Agent of the Mobile Host
and then through the Home Agent of the Mobile Router.
Let's assume, now, that the mobile network is an IPv6 network. In IPv6
could be this double re-direction avoided?

I guess:

1° possibility
A pool of IPv6 addresses is assigned to the Mobile Router when it
desires to connect to the Internet; so the Mobile Router can assigned an
its own Care-of Address to each Mobile Host asking for one. This allows
the Mobile Host to inform by itself its Correspondent Nodes and its Home
Agent of this new Care-of Address, and this avoids the double
re-direction...

2° possibility
A single IPv4 address is assigned to the Mobile Router as its Care-of
Address, because, for example, the Edge Router to which the Mobile
Router attaches doesn't support IPv6. Now the problem comes!
It could be solved in this way (I wonder if it is possible and
realistic...):
when a Mobile Host attaches to the Mobile Router, it asks to the DHCP
server, which is in the Mobile Router, for a Care-of Address, and sends
its Home Address to it;
the Mobile Router could use Stateful Address Autoconfiguration (setting
M=1 in the Router Advertisement packets), and it could oblige all the
hosts in the mobile network, to acquire the same Care-of Address, that
is the one it got from the Edge Router!!
So all the hosts, both fixed and mobile hosts, share one Care-of
Address; but they don't care about this, because the Mobile Router set
M=1 in the Router Advertisement packets, so avoiding Stateless Address
Autoconfiguration and Duplicate Address Detection.
So each host on the mobile network can inform by itself its
Correspondent Nodes and its Home Agent of this new Care-of Address.
Now when a packet arrives to the Mobile Router, obviously it will be
encapsulated in an IPv4 packet (see figure in the attachment), so first
of all the Mobile Router has to decapsulate it.
Then if the packet comes from a Correspondent Node it will have, as
Destination IP Address, the Care-of Address of the Mobile Router and in
the Routing Header it will have the Home Address of the Mobile Host that
is on the mobile network, and with which the Correspondent Node is
communicating.
The Mobile Router knows the Home Addresses of the Mobile Hosts it has in
charge and knows to which link-layer addresses they are related; so the
Mobile Router has to recognize this address in the Routing Header and it
has to forward the packet directly in the local network to the Mobile
Host.
If the packet comes from the Home Agent of one Mobile Host that is
attached to the mobile network, the matters are similar. The only
difference is that the packet will be encapsulated in an IPv6 packet,
too; therefore the Mobile Router has to decapsulate again the packet,
again it has to recognize the Home Address of one Mobile Host it has in
charge, and it has to forward the packet to it through its link-layer
address.

Probably the picture I made can clarify the problem.

1° possibility:

[Image]
2° possibility:

[Image]


Thanks again to anyone will answer.

Matteo Berioli

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I would appreciate very much any explanation.
<br>It's a little bit long, but I hope fast and clear!
<br>Thank you.
<p>PROBLEM: Let' s assume we have a Mobile Router, to which a Mobile Host
attaches. We know how the matters work with IPv4 and Mobile IP (see RFC
2002 par: 4.5 page 61-62). The problem is here that we have a double re-direction
of each packet directed to the Mobile Host. As a matter of fact, each packet
has to pass through the Home Agent of the Mobile Host and then through
the Home Agent of the Mobile Router.
<br>Let's assume, now, that the mobile network is an IPv6 network. In IPv6
could be this double re-direction avoided?
<p>I guess:
<p>1&deg; possibility
<br>A pool of IPv6 addresses is assigned to the Mobile Router when it desires
to connect to the Internet; so the Mobile Router can assigned an its own
Care-of Address to each Mobile Host asking for one. This allows the Mobile
Host to inform by itself its Correspondent Nodes and its Home Agent of
this new Care-of Address, and this avoids the double re-direction...
<p>2&deg; possibility
<br>A single IPv4 address is assigned to the Mobile Router as its Care-of
Address, because, for example, the Edge Router to which the Mobile Router
attaches doesn't support IPv6. Now the problem comes!
<br>It could be solved in this way (I wonder if it is possible and realistic...):
<br>when a Mobile Host attaches to the Mobile Router, it asks to the DHCP
server, which is in the Mobile Router, for a Care-of Address, and sends
its Home Address to it;
<br>the Mobile Router could use Stateful Address Autoconfiguration (setting
M=1 in the Router Advertisement packets), and it could oblige all the hosts
in the mobile network, to acquire the same Care-of Address, that is the
one it got from the Edge Router!!
<br>So all the hosts, both fixed and mobile hosts, share one Care-of Address;
but they don't care about this, because the Mobile Router set M=1 in the
Router Advertisement packets, so avoiding Stateless Address Autoconfiguration
and Duplicate Address Detection.
<br>So each host on the mobile network can inform by itself its Correspondent
Nodes and its Home Agent of this new Care-of Address.
<br>Now when a packet arrives to the Mobile Router, obviously it will be
encapsulated in an IPv4 packet (see figure in the attachment), so first
of all the Mobile Router has to decapsulate it.
<br>Then if the packet comes from a Correspondent Node it will have, as
Destination IP Address, the Care-of Address of the Mobile Router and in
the Routing Header it will have the Home Address of the Mobile Host that
is on the mobile network, and with which the Correspondent Node is communicating.
<br>The Mobile Router knows the Home Addresses of the Mobile Hosts it has
in charge and knows to which link-layer addresses they are related; so
the Mobile Router has to recognize this address in the Routing Header and
it has to forward the packet directly in the local network to the Mobile
Host.
<br>If the packet comes from the Home Agent of one Mobile Host that is
attached to the mobile network, the matters are similar. The only difference
is that the packet will be encapsulated in an IPv6 packet, too; therefore
the Mobile Router has to decapsulate again the packet, again it has to
recognize the Home Address of one Mobile Host it has in charge, and it
has to forward the packet to it through its link-layer address.
<p>Probably the picture I made can clarify the problem.
<p>1&deg; possibility:
<p><img SRC="cid:part1.39E1DACE.E5D73E5D@zeus.nt.op.dlr.de" height=317 width=683>
<br>2&deg; possibility:
<p><img SRC="cid:part2.39E1DACE.E5D73E5D@zeus.nt.op.dlr.de" height=317 width=683>
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Thanks again to anyone will answer.
<p>Matteo Berioli</html>

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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 12:05:22 2000
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 13:12:28 2000
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Organization: INRIA Rhone-Alpes
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
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Matteo Berioli wrote:
> PROBLEM: Let' s assume we have a Mobile Router, to which a Mobile Host
> attaches. We know how the matters work with IPv4 and Mobile IP (see
> RFC 2002 par: 4.5 page 61-62). The problem is here that we have a
> double re-direction of each packet directed to the Mobile Host. As a
> matter of fact, each packet has to pass through the Home Agent of the
> Mobile Host and then through the Home Agent of the Mobile Router.
> Let's assume, now, that the mobile network is an IPv6 network. In IPv6
> could be this double re-direction avoided?

Hi Matteo,

I have also been doing some thinking about mobile networks.  This issue
has not really been addressed nor even raised though there are many
interesting problems to be dealt with.   

At the time being, Mobile IPv6 does not support mobile networks at all.  
The Home Agent of the Mobile Router is unable to redirect packets sent
to a node attached to the Mobile Router (call it MNN - Mobile Network
Node), and no optimal routing is possible between the CN and the MNN.   
See my Internet Draft for the problem description on the IETF web site
or on my web page:
http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents/draft-ernst-mobileip-v6-network


> 1° possibility
> A pool of IPv6 addresses is assigned to the Mobile Router when it
> desires to connect to the Internet; so the Mobile Router can assigned
> an its own Care-of Address to each Mobile Host asking for one. This
> allows the Mobile Host to inform by itself its Correspondent Nodes and
> its Home Agent of this new Care-of Address, and this avoids the double
> re-direction...

You need a protocol to enquire and distribute the care-of address
between the Mobile Host and the Mobile Router.   

> 2° possibility
> A single IPv4 address is assigned to the Mobile Router as its Care-of
> Address, because, for example, the Edge Router to which the Mobile
> Router attaches doesn't support IPv6. Now the problem comes!

Are you dealing with Mobile IPv4 or with Mobile IPv6 ?  

> It could be solved in this way (I wonder if it is possible and
> realistic...):
> when a Mobile Host attaches to the Mobile Router, it asks to the DHCP
> server, which is in the Mobile Router, for a Care-of Address, and
> sends its Home Address to it;

The DHCP server is not necessarily on the Mobile Router.   The Mobile
Network may be composed of several routers (i.e. subnets).  What if the
Mobile Host does not attach directly to the Mobile Router ?

> the Mobile Router could use Stateful Address Autoconfiguration
> (setting M=1 in the Router Advertisement packets), and it could oblige
> all the hosts in the mobile network, to acquire the same Care-of
> Address, that is the one it got from the Edge Router!!

> So all the hosts, both fixed and mobile hosts, share one Care-of
> Address; but they don't care about this, because the Mobile Router set
> M=1 in the Router Advertisement packets, so avoiding Stateless Address
> Autoconfiguration and Duplicate Address Detection.
> So each host on the mobile network can inform by itself its
> Correspondent Nodes and its Home Agent of this new Care-of Address.

As a result, all hosts have to take active part in the mobility
management of the mobile router.     I don't find this solution
reasonable.   My solution is that all the mobility management is done by
the Mobile Router (MR) ; the MR advertises its CoA together with its
prefix asking all CNs of nodes located in the mobile network to use the
MR's CoA when they want to send a packet holding a destination address
matching the prefix of the MR.

> Now when a packet arrives to the Mobile Router, obviously it will be
> encapsulated in an IPv4 packet (see figure in the attachment), so
> first of all the Mobile Router has to decapsulate it.
> Then if the packet comes from a Correspondent Node it will have, as
> Destination IP Address, the Care-of Address of the Mobile Router and
> in the Routing Header it will have the Home Address of the Mobile Host
> that is on the mobile network, and with which the Correspondent Node
> is communicating.

> The Mobile Router knows the Home Addresses of the Mobile Hosts it has
> in charge and knows to which link-layer addresses they are related; so
> the Mobile Router has to recognize this address in the Routing Header
> and it has to forward the packet directly in the local network to the
> Mobile Host.

Same comment as before, if the MN does not attach directly to the MR.


Cheers,
Thierry.

--
* mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpes.fr  Tel +33 (0) 4 76 61 52 69 
* INRIA Rhone-Alpes Projet PLANETE       (fax 52 52) 
* http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.html


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 15:14:49 2000
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> In fact, I wish it were not required even when the mobile
> node is away from home.  In the future, if my fantasy comes
> true and ingress filtering is abolished, there will no longer
> be such a need for this restriction.


If an access router has a mobile node associated with it, then it should
probably be smart enough to allow the mobile to use it's home address(es) as
the destination.

In my opinion in an optimal environment ingress filtering should only be
done on the first hop at an access router, NAS, etc..

I have a similar fantasy but still believe the source filtering may be
needed only on the first hop from the source.

It may be that a rogue routing network may actually turn off 1st hop ingress
filtering and thus allow DoS attacks to originate from it. To handle this,
perhaps a method should be pursued of dynamically turning the filtering
temporarily on and off, once the origin edge network is discovered. I.e.
routing protocol work?

The problems with this are:

1> mobility is nuked during the origin location process.
2> if authentication of the signaling for turning on the filtering is not
done then
  this signaling could be used as a new form of mobile DoS attack.

The positive argument to item (1)'s temporary "problems" is that DoS attacks
may nuke a good portion of both mobile and non-mobile traffic anyway.

The positive argument to (2) is simply to do strong authentication on these
requests - no brainer.

On the bright side, I believe some recent work on filters between autonomous
systems have been published in the form of drafts for BGP4. The
applicability of this function for mobility in turning source address
ingress filtering on and off are not explicitly detailed in the drafts,
however.

People on the list and perhaps in the ipng wg might want to take a look at
and guage an opinion for these drafts.

http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-route-filter-00.txt
http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-bgp-route-filter-01.txt
http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-bgp-prefix-orf-00.txt

Perhaps the authors might wish to elaborate on some of the practical uses;
in particular - support for mobility without the use of COA as source
address.

I feel that this "find the bozos, shut them down and then let things return
to normal" solution would be far better than forcing ingress filtering to be
used all the time and everywhere.

I suspect that this could be accomplished rather quickly only denying
service for a very short time.

If the DoS attacks are not that bad, perhaps the search and destroy
procedures could be done at off hours.



        > What do you think about the "not at all swap" proposal?
        > Or have I missed something else important here?

        > Regards,
        > Charlie P.

gm> No  you haven't - thanks for bringing it up in a positive light.

I'm very interested in other proposals for solutions as well. Let's get rid
of the need for tunneling. Including the home address option is just another
form of minimal tunneling in my book. The AH question is only one such issue
that tunneling affects.

Thank You,

Glenn





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<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of =
&quot;MobilitySupport  in IPv6&quot;draft]</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In fact, I wish it were not required even when =
the mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">node is away from home.&nbsp; In the future, if =
my fantasy comes</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">true and ingress filtering is abolished, there =
will no longer</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">be such a need for this restriction.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If an access router =
has a mobile node associated with it, then it should probably be smart =
enough to allow the mobile to use it's home address(es) as the =
destination.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In my opinion in an =
optimal environment ingress filtering should only be done on the first =
hop at an access router, NAS, etc..</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have a similar =
fantasy but still believe the source filtering may be needed only on =
the first hop from the source.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It may be that a =
rogue routing network may actually turn off 1st hop ingress filtering =
and thus allow DoS attacks to originate from it. To handle this, =
perhaps a method should be pursued of dynamically turning the filtering =
temporarily on and off, once the origin edge network is discovered. =
I.e. routing protocol work? </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The problems with =
this are:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">1&gt; mobility is =
nuked during the origin location process. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">2&gt; if =
authentication of the signaling for turning on the filtering is not =
done then</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp; this =
signaling could be used as a new form of mobile DoS attack. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The positive =
argument to item (1)'s temporary &quot;problems&quot; is that DoS =
attacks may nuke a good portion of both mobile and non-mobile traffic =
anyway. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The positive =
argument to (2) is simply to do strong authentication on these requests =
- no brainer.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">On the bright side, =
I believe some recent work on filters between autonomous systems have =
been published in the form of drafts for BGP4. The applicability of =
this function for mobility in turning source address ingress filtering =
on and off are not explicitly detailed in the drafts, however.&nbsp; =
</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">People on the list =
and perhaps in the ipng wg might want to take a look at and guage an =
opinion for these drafts.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-route-filt=
er-00.txt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-idr-=
route-filter-00.txt</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-bgp-route-filt=
er-01.txt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-bgp-=
route-filter-01.txt</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-bgp-prefix-orf=
-00.txt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chen-bgp-=
prefix-orf-00.txt</A></FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Perhaps the authors =
might wish to elaborate on some of the practical uses; in particular - =
support for mobility without the use of COA as source =
address.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I feel that this =
&quot;find the bozos, shut them down and then let things return to =
normal&quot; solution would be far better than forcing ingress =
filtering to be used all the time and everywhere. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I suspect that this =
could be accomplished rather quickly only denying service for a very =
short time. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If the DoS attacks =
are not that bad, perhaps the search and destroy procedures could be =
done at off hours.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<UL>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What do you think about the &quot;not at all =
swap&quot; proposal?</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Or have I missed something else important =
here?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Charlie P.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gm&gt; No&nbsp; you =
haven't - thanks for bringing it up in a positive light.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'm very interested =
in other proposals for solutions as well. Let's get rid of the need for =
tunneling. Including the home address option is just another form of =
minimal tunneling in my book. The AH question is only one such issue =
that tunneling affects.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thank You,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 17:18:57 2000
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From: Pete McCann <mccap@RESEARCH.BELL-LABS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
X-To:         "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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"Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE> (KE) writes:

> I believe that Pete's common on real time has to do with the current
> state of some cellular networks. In some of these technologies, the
> Mobile gets a message, informing it to do a handoff. There is no
> extra time for the mobile to register. Tom Hiller stated this on the
> v4 handoff design team conference call, but I believe you weren't on
> that particular call.

KE> I am aware of this and am not disagreeing.
KE> My point is that the registration can be done before the Mobile
KE> gets the L2 message informing it to handoff. Thus we require
KE> interworking between L2 and L3 on the network-side (which is
KE> needed anyway) such that L3 registration can occur at the same
KE> time as L2 signalling and such that the L2 handoff message is
KE> sent after the L3 registration. As I wrote in my reply to Pete,
KE> this is what is summed up in point 2) of the list of differences
KE> sent out.

Let's consider the interval between the two events:

(a) The network gets an indication (power measurements, whatever) that a
    handoff to a new point of attachment is necessary.
(b) The handoff is physically performed and the MS tunes to the new BS.

Now, in today's cellular systems, the interval between these two
events (let's refer to it as [a,b]) is hard and well-specified.  [a,b]
is so small that the *very next message* sent after (a) is the "do
handoff" message sent to the MS.  The MS then *immediately* tunes to
the new BS and the handoff is completed or the call is dropped, in
case the MS cannot tune to the new BS.  The hard deadline comes from
the fact that the signal strength to the current BS is rapidly
degrading, presumably because the MS is moving away.

Now, the Proactive draft assumes that we will live with this state of
affairs for the forseeable future, and allows the L2 messages (the
power indications leading to (a), and the handoff command implementing
(b)) to run unchanged.

The Fast Handoff draft proposes to insert 2 messages into the interval
[a,b]:
    1. A Mobile IP Agent Advertisement, from the target FA.  (How
       the source FA gets this advertisement is left unspecified and
       may add additional time to the handoff).
    2. A Mobile IP Registration Request originating from the MN's
       Mobile IP Client implementation.

Now whether there is time for these messages to run over-the-air is
debatable; it may be the case that for some handoffs, the signal
strength is not degrading quickly enough to cause the disconnection
to happen prior to the Registration Request.  But that is not really
my point.  My point is that the Registration Request is generated by
a non-real-time piece of L3 software on the MN, which might actually
be running on a laptop computer connected to a phone.  So, in addition
to the two over-the-air messages, you need to allow time for:

    1a. The Agent advertisement to be sent from the phone to the laptop.
    1b. The interrupt handler on the laptop to run.
    1c. The agent advertisement to be queued in the laptop's kernel.
    1d. The bottom half scheduler to get a chance to run and dequeue
        the message, dispatching it to the IP stack.
    1e. The generation of a Mobile IP Registration Request.
    1f. The transmission of such a request to the phone.

Now, I am not prepared to put a real-time deadline on how long it will
take 1a through 1f to run, especially 1d if there is a lot of other
activity on the laptop that is causing bottom half scheduling to be
delayed.  I do not want to put this unpredictable non-realtime delay
on the critical path before a handoff can take place.  If the
opportunity for the handoff is missed the call is dropped and we
have a noticeable interruption in service.

If you only want MIP clients to run in tightly-integrated real-time
embedded systems (such as phones manufactured by a particular vendor)
then your point of view makes sense.  Personally I would not like to
see these real-time requirements imposed on the MIP client; as I said
I think it runs counter to the Internet design philosophy which has
historically put soft, but not hard, real-time constraints on IP stack
implementations.

-Pete


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 19:10:12 2000
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From: Meeta Sharma <meeta@CATARINA.USC.EDU>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Registration Reply
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi all,
I was looking into mobile ip(rfc 2002) for one of my projects. I had a
question:
What happens when the registration reply(i) from foreign agent to mobile
node is delayed? It can happen that the timer at the mobile node expires
and that the mobile node sends another request(i+1)..but then it gets a
reply(i) would it accept it or reject it?

Also, what if Foreign agent sees that it had sent a reply for (i) and now
is getting a request(i+1) then would it discard it or send the reply back
again? without going to the home agent?

I am a little confused and maybe the answers would help me in my model.
Thanks,
Regards,
Meeta


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 19:17:43 2000
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From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySup
              port in
              IPv6"draft]
X-To:         Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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At 02:11 PM 10/9/00 -0500, Glenn Morrow wrote:
>I feel that this "find the bozos, shut them down and then let things
>return to normal" solution would be far better than forcing ingress
>filtering to be used all the time and everywhere.

how do you detect the bozos? I think the argument for using ingress
filtering all the time is that it does indeed detect most bozos.

By the way, the most usual implementation of ingress filtering goes rather
beyond what the RFC actually says - it uses a reverse path forwarding
check. This has its own dangers, however, related to asymmetric routing.
Ingress filtering says "if you are among a few known bad things, I will
detect you", meaning that on every packet I have to apply a number of
rules. RPF says "if it would be reasonable for me to forward to you along
this path, I will let you forward via me", which happens to be a single
lookup way to apply a much stronger rule set. But asymmetric routing may
make it possible only for you to forward via me while I consider quite
another route to be my most reasonable route to you. Hence, ingress
filtering is usually only done at the edge-network-to-ISP interface;
ISP-ISP interfaces get eaten by asymmetric routing pretty badly.

I personally would favor a form of ingress filtering that ensures that only
addresses that may be found on a first-hop-router interface get used as
sources - in short, that the MAC Source Address and the IP Source Address
indeed match at the first hop, or on a dial line, that the Source IP
Address is the one that was assigned to the device dialing in. This would
detect a lot of bozo addressing. From an operational perspective, though,
unless we made this somehow mandatory to turn on and had laws that imposed
stiff fines for turning it off, operators could never trust it; they would
need to do their own RPF checks anyway, as this is the only defense that
they could control.

And yes, I think they do in fact turn on the RPF check when they think it
is appropriate, in many cases, as opposed to leaving it on all the time.

Note that if I require the IP Source Address and the MAC Address to match,
I just made COA addresses a failure case... This would have to be seen as
an acceptable exception.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct  9 19:45:24 2000
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From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
X-To:         "Thierry.Ernst@INRIALPES.FR" <Thierry.Ernst@INRIALPES.FR>
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Hi Thierry,

I believe your solution is perfect for one case :
The devices connected to the MR do not have a MIPv6 implementation.=20
Some people might argue that if you do not have a MIPv6 implementation
then you should not be mobile. But that is also debatable I think.

If the devices have MIPv6 in them (ie. MN's) then they can manage their =

own mobility. There is a chapter on this in the HMIPv6 draft. In this =
case=20
the MR advertises itself as a MAP upon entering a foreign network.
As a result the MN's attached to it would register with the HA with an=20
alt-CoA which is the MR's (MAP) address.=20

It would be good to get your comments on this solution.=20

Cheers,
Hesham

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thierry Ernst [SMTP:thierry.ernst@INRIALPES.FR]
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2000 2:57
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
>=20
> Matteo Berioli wrote:
> > PROBLEM: Let' s assume we have a Mobile Router, to which a Mobile =
Host
> > attaches. We know how the matters work with IPv4 and Mobile IP (see
> > RFC 2002 par: 4.5 page 61-62). The problem is here that we have a
> > double re-direction of each packet directed to the Mobile Host. As =
a
> > matter of fact, each packet has to pass through the Home Agent of =
the
> > Mobile Host and then through the Home Agent of the Mobile Router.
> > Let's assume, now, that the mobile network is an IPv6 network. In =
IPv6
> > could be this double re-direction avoided?
>=20
> Hi Matteo,
>=20
> I have also been doing some thinking about mobile networks.  This =
issue
> has not really been addressed nor even raised though there are many
> interesting problems to be dealt with.  =20
>=20
> At the time being, Mobile IPv6 does not support mobile networks at =
all. =20
> The Home Agent of the Mobile Router is unable to redirect packets =
sent
> to a node attached to the Mobile Router (call it MNN - Mobile Network
> Node), and no optimal routing is possible between the CN and the MNN. =
 =20
> See my Internet Draft for the problem description on the IETF web =
site
> or on my web page:
> =
http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents/draft-ernst-mobil=
ei
> p-v6-network
>=20
>=20
> > 1=B0 possibility
> > A pool of IPv6 addresses is assigned to the Mobile Router when it
> > desires to connect to the Internet; so the Mobile Router can =
assigned
> > an its own Care-of Address to each Mobile Host asking for one. This
> > allows the Mobile Host to inform by itself its Correspondent Nodes =
and
> > its Home Agent of this new Care-of Address, and this avoids the =
double
> > re-direction...
>=20
> You need a protocol to enquire and distribute the care-of address
> between the Mobile Host and the Mobile Router.  =20
>=20
> > 2=B0 possibility
> > A single IPv4 address is assigned to the Mobile Router as its =
Care-of
> > Address, because, for example, the Edge Router to which the Mobile
> > Router attaches doesn't support IPv6. Now the problem comes!
>=20
> Are you dealing with Mobile IPv4 or with Mobile IPv6 ? =20
>=20
> > It could be solved in this way (I wonder if it is possible and
> > realistic...):
> > when a Mobile Host attaches to the Mobile Router, it asks to the =
DHCP
> > server, which is in the Mobile Router, for a Care-of Address, and
> > sends its Home Address to it;
>=20
> The DHCP server is not necessarily on the Mobile Router.   The Mobile
> Network may be composed of several routers (i.e. subnets).  What if =
the
> Mobile Host does not attach directly to the Mobile Router ?
>=20
> > the Mobile Router could use Stateful Address Autoconfiguration
> > (setting M=3D1 in the Router Advertisement packets), and it could =
oblige
> > all the hosts in the mobile network, to acquire the same Care-of
> > Address, that is the one it got from the Edge Router!!
>=20
> > So all the hosts, both fixed and mobile hosts, share one Care-of
> > Address; but they don't care about this, because the Mobile Router =
set
> > M=3D1 in the Router Advertisement packets, so avoiding Stateless =
Address
> > Autoconfiguration and Duplicate Address Detection.
> > So each host on the mobile network can inform by itself its
> > Correspondent Nodes and its Home Agent of this new Care-of Address.
>=20
> As a result, all hosts have to take active part in the mobility
> management of the mobile router.     I don't find this solution
> reasonable.   My solution is that all the mobility management is done =
by
> the Mobile Router (MR) ; the MR advertises its CoA together with its
> prefix asking all CNs of nodes located in the mobile network to use =
the
> MR's CoA when they want to send a packet holding a destination =
address
> matching the prefix of the MR.
>=20
> > Now when a packet arrives to the Mobile Router, obviously it will =
be
> > encapsulated in an IPv4 packet (see figure in the attachment), so
> > first of all the Mobile Router has to decapsulate it.
> > Then if the packet comes from a Correspondent Node it will have, as
> > Destination IP Address, the Care-of Address of the Mobile Router =
and
> > in the Routing Header it will have the Home Address of the Mobile =
Host
> > that is on the mobile network, and with which the Correspondent =
Node
> > is communicating.
>=20
> > The Mobile Router knows the Home Addresses of the Mobile Hosts it =
has
> > in charge and knows to which link-layer addresses they are related; =
so
> > the Mobile Router has to recognize this address in the Routing =
Header
> > and it has to forward the packet directly in the local network to =
the
> > Mobile Host.
>=20
> Same comment as before, if the MN does not attach directly to the MR.
>=20
>=20
> Cheers,
> Thierry.
>=20
> --
> * mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpes.fr  Tel +33 (0) 4 76 61 52 69=20
> * INRIA Rhone-Alpes Projet PLANETE       (fax 52 52)=20
> * http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.html

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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Thierry,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I believe your =
solution is perfect for one case :</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The devices =
connected to the MR do not have a MIPv6 implementation. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Some people might =
argue that if you do not have a MIPv6 implementation</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">then you should not =
be mobile. But that is also debatable I think.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If the devices have =
MIPv6 in them (ie. MN's) then they can manage their </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">own mobility. There =
is a chapter on this in the HMIPv6 draft. In this case </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the MR advertises =
itself as a MAP upon entering a foreign network.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As a result the =
MN's attached to it would register with the HA with an </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">alt-CoA which is =
the MR's (MAP) address. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It would be good to =
get your comments on this solution. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hesham</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Thierry Ernst =
[SMTP:thierry.ernst@INRIALPES.FR]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, 10 October 2000 2:57</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical =
question...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Matteo Berioli wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; PROBLEM: Let' s assume we have a =
Mobile Router, to which a Mobile Host</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; attaches. We know how the =
matters work with IPv4 and Mobile IP (see</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; RFC 2002 par: 4.5 page 61-62). =
The problem is here that we have a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; double re-direction of each =
packet directed to the Mobile Host. As a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; matter of fact, each packet has =
to pass through the Home Agent of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Mobile Host and then through the =
Home Agent of the Mobile Router.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Let's assume, now, that the =
mobile network is an IPv6 network. In IPv6</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; could be this double =
re-direction avoided?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Matteo,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have also been doing some thinking =
about mobile networks.&nbsp; This issue</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">has not really been addressed nor =
even raised though there are many</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">interesting problems to be dealt =
with.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">At the time being, Mobile IPv6 does =
not support mobile networks at all.&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The Home Agent of the Mobile Router =
is unable to redirect packets sent</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to a node attached to the Mobile =
Router (call it MNN - Mobile Network</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Node), and no optimal routing is =
possible between the CN and the MNN.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">See my Internet Draft for the problem =
description on the IETF web site</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">or on my web page:</FONT>
<BR><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents/draft-ern=
st-mobileip-v6-network" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents=
/draft-ernst-mobileip-v6-network</A></FONT></U>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; 1=B0 possibility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; A pool of IPv6 addresses is =
assigned to the Mobile Router when it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; desires to connect to the =
Internet; so the Mobile Router can assigned</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; an its own Care-of Address to =
each Mobile Host asking for one. This</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; allows the Mobile Host to inform =
by itself its Correspondent Nodes and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; its Home Agent of this new =
Care-of Address, and this avoids the double</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; re-direction...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You need a protocol to enquire and =
distribute the care-of address</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">between the Mobile Host and the =
Mobile Router.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; 2=B0 possibility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; A single IPv4 address is =
assigned to the Mobile Router as its Care-of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Address, because, for example, =
the Edge Router to which the Mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Router attaches doesn't support =
IPv6. Now the problem comes!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Are you dealing with Mobile IPv4 or =
with Mobile IPv6 ?&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; It could be solved in this way (I =
wonder if it is possible and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; realistic...):</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; when a Mobile Host attaches to =
the Mobile Router, it asks to the DHCP</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; server, which is in the Mobile =
Router, for a Care-of Address, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; sends its Home Address to =
it;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The DHCP server is not necessarily on =
the Mobile Router.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Network may be composed of several =
routers (i.e. subnets).&nbsp; What if the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mobile Host does not attach directly =
to the Mobile Router ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the Mobile Router could use =
Stateful Address Autoconfiguration</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; (setting M=3D1 in the Router =
Advertisement packets), and it could oblige</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; all the hosts in the mobile =
network, to acquire the same Care-of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Address, that is the one it got =
from the Edge Router!!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; So all the hosts, both fixed and =
mobile hosts, share one Care-of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Address; but they don't care =
about this, because the Mobile Router set</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; M=3D1 in the Router =
Advertisement packets, so avoiding Stateless Address</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Autoconfiguration and Duplicate =
Address Detection.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; So each host on the mobile =
network can inform by itself its</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Correspondent Nodes and its Home =
Agent of this new Care-of Address.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As a result, all hosts have to take =
active part in the mobility</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">management of the mobile =
router.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't find this solution</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">reasonable.&nbsp;&nbsp; My solution =
is that all the mobility management is done by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the Mobile Router (MR) ; the MR =
advertises its CoA together with its</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">prefix asking all CNs of nodes =
located in the mobile network to use the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MR's CoA when they want to send a =
packet holding a destination address</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">matching the prefix of the MR.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Now when a packet arrives to the =
Mobile Router, obviously it will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; encapsulated in an IPv4 packet =
(see figure in the attachment), so</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; first of all the Mobile Router =
has to decapsulate it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Then if the packet comes from a =
Correspondent Node it will have, as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Destination IP Address, the =
Care-of Address of the Mobile Router and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; in the Routing Header it will =
have the Home Address of the Mobile Host</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; that is on the mobile network, =
and with which the Correspondent Node</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; is communicating.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; The Mobile Router knows the Home =
Addresses of the Mobile Hosts it has</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; in charge and knows to which =
link-layer addresses they are related; so</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the Mobile Router has to =
recognize this address in the Routing Header</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; and it has to forward the packet =
directly in the local network to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Mobile Host.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Same comment as before, if the MN does =
not attach directly to the MR.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thierry.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">*</FONT><U> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpes.fr">mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpe=
s.fr</A></FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp; Tel +33 (0) 4 =
76 61 52 69 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">* INRIA Rhone-Alpes Projet =
PLANETE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (fax 52 52) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">*</FONT><U> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.html" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.h=
tml</A></FONT></U>
</P>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 06:25:23 2000
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Message-ID:  <5F05C89FB2F8D211B6430008C791912703EA81C2@esealnt190>
Date:         Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:04:41 +0200
Reply-To: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Differences between the two MIPv4 handoff approac
              hes
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Pete

> Now, in today's cellular systems, the interval between these two
> events (let's refer to it as [a,b]) is hard and well-specified.  [a,b]
> is so small that the *very next message* sent after (a) is the "do
> handoff" message sent to the MS.  The MS then *immediately* tunes to
> the new BS and the handoff is completed or the call is dropped, in
> case the MS cannot tune to the new BS.  The hard deadline comes from
> the fact that the signal strength to the current BS is rapidly
> degrading, presumably because the MS is moving away.

Here is where I don't agree with your basic assumptions. Some systems
(CDMA-based) don't have such a hard deadline since there is no strict
geographical limit beyond which the MN is unreachable. Some L2 procedures
and messages go on between event a and event b. So this doesn't stop us
from synchronising L2 and L3 procedures. Also, a BS coverage area
is not the same as a MIP FA coverage area and a L2 handoff doesn't
imply a L3 handoff.

> Now, the Proactive draft assumes that we will live with this state of
> affairs for the forseeable future, and allows the L2 messages (the
> power indications leading to (a), and the handoff command implementing
> (b)) to run unchanged.

We don't imply that they will be changed either, but what we are
concerned with is the communication/interworking between L2 and L3,
while maintaining the RFC2002 approach.

> Now whether there is time for these messages to run over-the-air is
> debatable; it may be the case that for some handoffs, the signal
> strength is not degrading quickly enough to cause the disconnection
> to happen prior to the Registration Request.  But that is not really
> my point.  My point is that the Registration Request is generated by
> a non-real-time piece of L3 software on the MN, which might actually
> be running on a laptop computer connected to a phone.

I don't believe we can get away with (or want) such total independence
between L2 and L3 in the future wireless systems which the v4 handoffs
team was working towards. Do you?

Regards,
Karim


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 06:39:17 2000
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Message-ID:  <39E2F147.6252E490@inrialpes.fr>
Date:         Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:36:55 +0200
Reply-To: Thierry.Ernst@INRIALPES.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@INRIALPES.FR>
Organization: INRIA Rhone-Alpes
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
X-cc:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ericsson.com.au>,
              thierry.ernst@crm.mot.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi Hesham,

See my comments below.

> "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" wrote:
>
> Hi Thierry,
>
> I believe your solution is perfect for one case :
> The devices connected to the MR do not have a MIPv6 implementation.
> Some people might argue that if you do not have a MIPv6 implementation
> then you should not be mobile. But that is also debatable I think.

> If the devices have MIPv6 in them (ie. MN's) then they can manage
> their
> own mobility. There is a chapter on this in the HMIPv6 draft. In this
> case
> the MR advertises itself as a MAP upon entering a foreign network.
> As a result the MN's attached to it would register with the HA with an
> alt-CoA which is the MR's (MAP) address.
>
> It would be good to get your comments on this solution.

As I understand your draft
http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00.txt, the
MN enters the mobile network and listens to router advertisements.   It
gets a LCOA and registers with the MAP, i.e the mobile router MR.   It
adversites the MAP's address to its HA and its CNs.   Fine.

How packets get routed from the CN to the MN ?  I understand that the
MAP's address is the home address of the MR.    The MR also gets a
care-of address at each of its Access Router.    Then, the packets sent
from CN to MN is sent to the MAP's address and the routing header
contains the home address of the MN.  The packet gets routed to the HA
of the MR where it is encapulated to the current care-of address of the
MR as if the final destination was the MR itself.   The final
destination is transparent to the HA.   The packet is received and
decapsulated by MR and the desitnation address is switched with the one
contained in the routing header.  The packet is then forwarded to the
MN.

Your proposition therefore works for mobile nodes MNs visiting a mobile
network.  (However, there is no optimal routing between CN and MN, but
this not the present subject of the discussion)

What about FIXED nodes located in the mobile network ?  This was the
topic of my draft
http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents/draft-ernst-mobileip-v6-network.
For the same reasons as outlined in my draft, the packet sent from a CN
to a FIXED host located in the mobile network can not reach its final
destination.   Packets are routed to the HA of the MR and then the HA
does not know what to do with them.  Those enters in a loop until the
TTL expires.   See the explanation in my draft.  As a result, FIXED
nodes in the mobile network never see the packets sent from CNs. From
what I understand, your solution does address this issue.

I agree that your solution is fine for MNs that visit the mobile
network, but one shouldn't forget about those FIXED host located in the
mobile network.  To me, the issue of routing packet from CNs to the
FIXED host is more important as this is more likely to happen.

Cheers,
Thierry.

* mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpes.fr  Tel +33 (0) 4 76 61 52 69
* INRIA Rhone-Alpes Projet PLANETE       (fax 52 52)
* http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.html


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 08:09:25 2000
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Message-ID:  <20001010205710C.wooighee@ise.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
Date:         Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:57:10 +0900
Reply-To: WANG Wooi Ghee <wooighee@ISE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: WANG Wooi Ghee <wooighee@ISE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Addressing in ad hoc network
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hai all

   I would like to know that whether there is any
work been done on addressing in Mobile Ad Hoc Network ?

ghee


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 09:15:18 2000
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Reply-To: "Gowri S.Makineni" <makineni@ECUTEL.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Gowri S.Makineni" <makineni@ECUTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Registration Reply
X-To:         Meeta Sharma <meeta@CATARINA.USC.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSF.4.10.10010091604100.89882-100000@catarina>

At 04:08 PM 10/9/00 -0700, Meeta Sharma wrote:
>Hi all,
>I was looking into mobile ip(rfc 2002) for one of my projects. I had a
>question:
>What happens when the registration reply(i) from foreign agent to mobile
>node is delayed? It can happen that the timer at the mobile node expires
>and that the mobile node sends another request(i+1)..but then it gets a
>reply(i) would it accept it or reject it?

If the timer expires at the mobile node, it sends another registration
request,
and discards replies to the previous requests that it sent.

>Also, what if Foreign agent sees that it had sent a reply for (i) and now
>is getting a request(i+1) then would it discard it or send the reply back
>again? without going to the home agent?

The foreign agent forwards all "proper" requests that it receives and forwards
them to the respective agents. Your (i+1) request is also forwarded to your
HA.
The replies of i and i+1 requests from the HA would be sent to the mobile
node provided time out does not occur at the FA.

>I am a little confused and maybe the answers would help me in my model.
>Thanks,
>Regards,
>Meeta
>
Hope that helps.
GSM
Gowri S. Makineni
Sr. Systems Engineer,
Ecutel
(703)354-4140 X-110
----------------------------------------------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 09:15:18 2000
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Message-ID:  <6D1A8E7871B9D211B3B00008C7490AA504E622FA@treis03nok>
Date:         Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:03:58 +0300
Reply-To: henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Henry Haverinen <henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt and existing
              authorization
              infrastructures
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi folks,

For those that are interested in MIP/AAA issues, please have
a look at the attached message, which I sent to this mailing
list a week ago. Any comments most welcome!

Regards,
Henry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: EXT Henry Haverinen [mailto:henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM]
> Sent: 04. October 2000 15:31
> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: [MOBILE-IP] The use of existing authorization infrastructures
> with Mobile IP/ AAA
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> In summary, I propose the following additions to
> draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt in this mail.
>
> 1. Two new rules for FA behavior when receiving the AMA
>    Command in response to the AMR Command:
>
>    a) If the AMA Command doesn't contain a MIP-Reg-Reply AVP,
>       the FA must forward the Reg.Request in question
>       to the HA itself.
>    b) If the AMA Command includes the Result-Code AVP
>       set to an error, the FA sends the MN a Reg.Reply with an
>       error code but nevertheless includes any AAA or key
>       distribution extensions from the AMA Command.
>
> 2. One new rule for HA behaviour:
>
>    If the HA receives a Registration Request that contains
>    the MN-AAA Authentication extension, either relayed by a
>    FA or directly from a MN that is registering a co-located
>    care-of address, the HA may issue the AMR Command in order
>    to authorize the Reg.Request. The AMR Command includes some
>    new flag which tells the AAA server that it does not have to
>    contact the home agent, and that the request came directly
>    from the home agent.
>
> ---
>
> The draft draft-haverinen-mobileip-gsmsim-00.txt describes how the
> existing GSM authorization infrastructure can be leveraged to achieve
> mobile user authorization for Mobile IP. The idea is not to use the
> GSM radio access technology, but to show how GSM SIM authorization
> could be used for Mobile IP authorization over any link layer, for
> example on WLAN hot spots. I'm writing a new revision of the draft
> which will fix the issues discussed on this mailing list and make the
> protocol to use the Mobile IP AAA extensions, so that the mobility
> agents don't need to be GSM SIM aware.
>
> The general model of leveraging an existing large scale
> authorization/charging infrastructure is very important because
> building new authorization infrastructures from scratch is hard:
> getting the necessary contracts and agreements in place takes effort
> and time. GSM authorization infrastructure is just one example of
> an existing large scale authorization infrastructure.  Another such
> global infrastructure is the credit-card infra: e.g., consider
> the following scenario: I travel to a new location, pay the local
> ISP using my credit card, and continue to use Mobile IP with an HA
> in my home ISP.
>
> In my opinion, any MIP/AAA proposal should be able to easily support
> use of existing authorization infrastructures because it will greatly
> speed up deployment of Mobile IP. However, the current MIP/AAA drafts
> (e.g., draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt) have a couple of
> assumptions that do not support such authorization. The important
> aspect is that when existing authorization infrastructures are used,
> HA and AAAH are not necessarily under the same administrative control,
> and are not co-located. They are probably not even close to each
> other.
>
> Let's use the term AAAH to denote the AAA server that can authorize
> the user, and probably charge/bill the user where necessary. In the
> GSM SIM case, the AAAH is the Authentication Centre (AuC) which
> resides deep inside the GSM network.
>
> The foreign domain may have a local AAA network which includes a AAA
> server that has an interface to the GSM network. In this case, the
> local AAA network is able to reach the AAAH but the AAA network isn't
> able to reach the home agent, as the current MIP/AAA drafts assume.
> Suppose that a FA issues the DIAMETER AA-Mobile-Node-Request (AMR)
> Command to authorize a Registration Request that uses GSM SIM. The
> current view is that the the response from AAA (AA-Mobile-Node-Answer,
> AMA Command) includes the Registration Reply from the HA in a
> MIP-Reg-Reply AVP, which isn't possible in this case.
>
> One way to support such authorization would be to add a new rule to
> the operation of the FA: if the response from the AAA doesn't contain
> the Registration Reply, the FA must forward the request to the HA
> itself.
>
> Besides the reachability of the HA through the AAA network,
> the GSM SIM
> authorization breaks another assumption. A mobile node that
> is using GSM SIM is not able to provide the visited domain with
> complete yet unforgeable credentials without ever having been in touch
> with its home domain, as required in
> draft-ietf-mobileip-aaa-reqs-04.txt.
> This is because GSM SIM requires true challenge/response
> authentication
> where AAAH generates the challenge. In other words, it takes two round
> trips to authorize the MN. The AAA response in the first round trip
> contains the challenge. The result code in the response indicates that
> the user was not authorized.
>
> True challenge/response could be supported by adding another
> new rule to the operation of the FA: if the AAA responds to the
> FA's authorization request with an error, the FA sends the MN a
> Reg.Reply with an error code but nevertheless includes any AAA or key
> distribution extensions from the AAA response. These
> extensions contain
> the challenge. The MN is now able to send another Reg.Request
> for which
> the authorization will be successful.
>
> The same approach can also be used to for authorization in the home
> domain. Both HA and FA can use the same AAAH (located elsewhere) for
> authorizing the mobile user.
>
> The HA may receive a Reg.Request (from a co-located MN or a FA) that
> contains the MN-AAA Authentication extension. The HA could then pass
> the request to the AAA network, for example with the DIAMETER AMR
> Command, and the AAA network would respond with the AMA command, using
> the AAAH on the GSM network. Here we probably need a new flag
> in the AAA
> request that tells the AAA server that it does not have to contact the
> home agent, and that the request came directly from the home agent.
>
>
> Regards,
> Henry
>
> P.S. I'd like to acknowledge that Asokan (n.asokan@nokia.com)
> has contributed a lot in these ideas and in this mail. Many thanks!
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 10:28:40 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
X-To:         "Thierry.Ernst@INRIALPES.FR" <Thierry.Ernst@INRIALPES.FR>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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Hi Thierry,

Thanks for the quick reply
Please see my comments below.

Cheers,
Hesham

> > I believe your solution is perfect for one case :
> > The devices connected to the MR do not have a MIPv6 implementation.
> > Some people might argue that if you do not have a MIPv6 implementation
> > then you should not be mobile. But that is also debatable I think.
>
> > If the devices have MIPv6 in them (ie. MN's) then they can manage
> > their
> > own mobility. There is a chapter on this in the HMIPv6 draft. In this
> > case
> > the MR advertises itself as a MAP upon entering a foreign network.
> > As a result the MN's attached to it would register with the HA with an
> > alt-CoA which is the MR's (MAP) address.
> >
> > It would be good to get your comments on this solution.
>
> As I understand your draft
> http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00.txt, the
> MN enters the mobile network and listens to router advertisements.   It
> gets a LCOA and registers with the MAP, i.e the mobile router MR.   It
> adversites the MAP's address to its HA and its CNs.   Fine.
>
        No it doesn't need to get an on link CoA, it keeps the same address,
        ie Home address. The MR (MAP) get a new CoA (topologially correct).
        It registers with the HA. The MNs attached to the MR (MAP) register
        the MAP's address as an alt-CoA with the HA. All packets destined
        to the MNs get routed by the CNs to the MAP which then routes them
        to the MN's on link.

> How packets get routed from the CN to the MN ?  I understand that the
> MAP's address is the home address of the MR.    The MR also gets a
> care-of address at each of its Access Router.    Then, the packets sent
> from CN to MN is sent to the MAP's address and the routing header
> contains the home address of the MN. The packet gets routed to the HA
> of the MR where it is encapulated to the current care-of address of the
> MR as if the final destination was the MR itself.   The final
> destination is transparent to the HA.   The packet is received and
> decapsulated by MR and the desitnation address is switched with the one
> contained in the routing header.  The packet is then forwarded to the
> MN.
>
> Your proposition therefore works for mobile nodes MNs visiting a mobile
> network.  (However, there is no optimal routing between CN and MN, but
> this not the present subject of the discussion)
>
        What do you mean by an optimal route between the CN and MN ?
        Route optimisation is used in this case. Is there a more optimal
route ?

> What about FIXED nodes located in the mobile network ?  This was the
> topic of my draft
> http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents/draft-ernst-mobilei
> p-v6-network.
> For the same reasons as outlined in my draft, the packet sent from a CN
> to a FIXED host located in the mobile network can not reach its final
> destination.   Packets are routed to the HA of the MR and then the HA
> does not know what to do with them.  Those enters in a loop until the
> TTL expires.   See the explanation in my draft.  As a result, FIXED
> nodes in the mobile network never see the packets sent from CNs. From
> what I understand, your solution does address this issue.
>
        I'll read your draft again, but I don't know what you mean by a
FIXED host ?


> I agree that your solution is fine for MNs that visit the mobile
> network, but one shouldn't forget about those FIXED host located in the
> mobile network.  To me, the issue of routing packet from CNs to the
> FIXED host is more important as this is more likely to happen.
>
> Cheers,
> Thierry.
>
> * mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpes.fr  Tel +33 (0) 4 76 61 52 69
> * INRIA Rhone-Alpes Projet PLANETE       (fax 52 52)
> * http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.html

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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Thierry,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks for the quick =
reply </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Please see my =
comments below. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hesham</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; I believe your solution is =
perfect for one case :</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; The devices connected to the MR =
do not have a MIPv6 implementation.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Some people might argue that if =
you do not have a MIPv6 implementation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; then you should not be mobile. =
But that is also debatable I think.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; If the devices have MIPv6 in them =
(ie. MN's) then they can manage</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; their</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; own mobility. There is a chapter =
on this in the HMIPv6 draft. In this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; case</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; the MR advertises itself as a =
MAP upon entering a foreign network.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; As a result the MN's attached to =
it would register with the HA with an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; alt-CoA which is the MR's (MAP) =
address.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; It would be good to get your =
comments on this solution.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As I understand your draft</FONT>
<BR><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00.tx=
t" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mobileip-hm=
ipv6-00.txt</A></FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MN enters the mobile network and =
listens to router advertisements.&nbsp;&nbsp; It</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gets a LCOA and registers with the =
MAP, i.e the mobile router MR.&nbsp;&nbsp; It</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">adversites the MAP's address to its =
HA and its CNs.&nbsp;&nbsp; Fine.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">No it doesn't need =
to get an on link CoA, it keeps the same address,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ie Home address. =
The MR (MAP) get a new CoA (topologially correct).</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It registers with =
the HA. The MNs attached to the MR (MAP) register </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the MAP's address =
as an alt-CoA with the HA. All packets destined</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to the MNs get =
routed by the CNs to the MAP which then routes them </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to the MN's on =
link.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">How packets get routed from the CN to =
the MN ?&nbsp; I understand that the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MAP's address is the home address of =
the MR.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The MR also gets a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">care-of address at each of its Access =
Router.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Then, the packets sent</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">from CN to MN is sent to the MAP's =
address and the routing header</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">contains the home address of the MN. =
The packet gets routed to the HA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of the MR where it is encapulated to =
the current care-of address of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MR as if the final destination was =
the MR itself.&nbsp;&nbsp; The final</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">destination is transparent to the =
HA.&nbsp;&nbsp; The packet is received and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">decapsulated by MR and the =
desitnation address is switched with the one</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">contained in the routing =
header.&nbsp; The packet is then forwarded to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">MN.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Your proposition therefore works for =
mobile nodes MNs visiting a mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">network.&nbsp; (However, there is no =
optimal routing between CN and MN, but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">this not the present subject of the =
discussion)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What do you mean by =
an optimal route between the CN and MN ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Route optimisation =
is used in this case. Is there a more optimal route ?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What about FIXED nodes located in the =
mobile network ?&nbsp; This was the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">topic of my draft</FONT>
<BR><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents/draft-ern=
st-mobileip-v6-network" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Documents=
/draft-ernst-mobileip-v6-network</A></FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For the same reasons as outlined in =
my draft, the packet sent from a CN</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to a FIXED host located in the mobile =
network can not reach its final</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">destination.&nbsp;&nbsp; Packets are =
routed to the HA of the MR and then the HA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">does not know what to do with =
them.&nbsp; Those enters in a loop until the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">TTL expires.&nbsp;&nbsp; See the =
explanation in my draft.&nbsp; As a result, FIXED</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">nodes in the mobile network never see =
the packets sent from CNs. From</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">what I understand, your solution does =
address this issue.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'll read your draft =
again, but I don't know what you mean by a FIXED host ?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I agree that your solution is fine for =
MNs that visit the mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">network, but one shouldn't forget =
about those FIXED host located in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">mobile network.&nbsp; To me, the =
issue of routing packet from CNs to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">FIXED host is more important as this =
is more likely to happen.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thierry.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">*</FONT><U> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpes.fr">mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpe=
s.fr</A></FONT></U><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp; Tel +33 (0) 4 =
76 61 52 69</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">* INRIA Rhone-Alpes Projet =
PLANETE&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (fax 52 52)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">*</FONT><U> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.html" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.h=
tml</A></FONT></U>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 11:01:20 2000
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From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@INRIALPES.FR>
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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
X-cc:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ericsson.com.au>,
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Hi Hesham,

Thank you for your precisions.

>      No it doesn't need to get an on link CoA, it keeps the same
>      address,
>      ie Home address. The MR (MAP) get a new CoA (topologially
>      correct).
>      It registers with the HA. The MNs attached to the MR (MAP)
>      register
>      the MAP's address as an alt-CoA with the HA. All packets destined
>
>      to the MNs get routed by the CNs to the MAP which then routes
>      them
>      to the MN's on link.

>      What do you mean by an optimal route between the CN and MN ?
>      Route optimisation is used in this case. Is there a more optimal
>      route

What care-of address contains the BU sent by the MN to its CNs ?   It
contains the MR 's address, right ?  But the MR is also a mobile node,
then the MR's address is in fact a home address.   Packets from the CN
to the MN therefore get routed to the MR's HA.   There is no true route
optimisation.   It is true that packets do not transit by the MN's HA,
otherwise you would end up  in a double redirection.

>
>      I'll read your draft again, but I don't know what you mean by a
>      FIXED host ?


A mobile network is not only a router, but a mobile router and all its
attached nodes.  Those attached nodes are FIXED relative to the MR.
The Mobile Network might even be composed of several routers (i.e. a set
of subnetworks).

A Mobile Node is a node that is visiting the mobile network by
opposition to the FIXED nodes that always remain located in the mobile
network (let's call them Mobile Network Nodes - nodes from the mobile
network - MNNs).



 Cheers,
 Thierry.

 * mailto:Thierry.Ernst@inrialpes.fr  Tel +33 (0) 4 76 61 52 69
 * INRIA Rhone-Alpes Projet PLANETE       (fax 52 52)
 * http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/people/ernst/Welcome.html


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From: Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySup
              port in
              IPv6"draft]
X-To:         Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
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        fb>
> how do you detect the bozos? I think the argument for using ingress
> filtering all the time is that it does indeed detect most bozos.
>
        gm> Yes, I believe the bozos (aagh - what have I started?) should be
detected on the first hop all of the time. I think we agree.


        fb>
        By the way, the most usual implementation of ingress filtering goes
rather
> beyond what the RFC actually says - it uses a reverse path forwarding
> check. This has its own dangers, however, related to asymmetric routing.
> Ingress filtering says "if you are among a few known bad things, I will
> detect you", meaning that on every packet I have to apply a number of
> rules. RPF says "if it would be reasonable for me to forward to you along
> this path, I will let you forward via me", which happens to be a single
> lookup way to apply a much stronger rule set. But asymmetric routing may
> make it possible only for you to forward via me while I consider quite
> another route to be my most reasonable route to you. Hence, ingress
> filtering is usually only done at the edge-network-to-ISP interface;
> ISP-ISP interfaces get eaten by asymmetric routing pretty badly.
>
        gm> Good points, thanks for bringing these up.

        fb>
> I personally would favor a form of ingress filtering that ensures that
> only
> addresses that may be found on a first-hop-router interface get used as
> sources - in short, that the MAC Source Address and the IP Source Address
> indeed match at the first hop, or on a dial line, that the Source IP
> Address is the one that was assigned to the device dialing in. This would
> detect a lot of bozo addressing.
>
        gm> me too for the IP source address. I'm not so sure about the MAC
address for all cases.

        fb>
> From an operational perspective, though,
> unless we made this somehow mandatory to turn on and had laws that imposed
> stiff fines for turning it off, operators could never trust it; they would
> need to do their own RPF checks anyway, as this is the only defense that
> they could control.
>
        gm> Making it a standard BCP for IPv6 might be all that is needed.

        A method of propagating amoung autonomous systems the turning of
ingress filtering on and off on specific routes might allow for the
detection of the attackers' network or address. Once detected, the offending
nodes' connectivity could be prevented and then the filtering removed.

        The drafts I mentioned are possibly the beginnings of such
functionality.  Think of it like a tool for detecting the location of the
attacking node(s) and acting upon them.

        If such a tool were available, it would allow detection and
prosecution using existing laws.

        If no remedies for prosecution were available and the provider
refuses to enable the 1st hop filtering, the offending network might have to
be denied at the AS level as purely a business decision of other providers.
I could see how this might happen among belligerents across national
borders.

        fb>
> And yes, I think they do in fact turn on the RPF check when they think it
> is appropriate, in many cases, as opposed to leaving it on all the time.
>
> Note that if I require the IP Source Address and the MAC Address to match,
> I just made COA addresses a failure case... This would have to be seen as
> an acceptable exception.
>
        gm> I'm not so sure about the MAC address needing to match for all
cases. The standard first hop ingress filtering would work for the COA
address without any additional routes etc.. in the first hop router.

        The use of the home address as the source address would likely
require that the first hop access router implement the concept of a binding
cache. If the route is in the binding cache then ingress filtering probably
does not need to be done. This assumes that very strong AAA is done before
any entry is made into this binding cache - no matter what method of network
access and COA assignment is used.

        I would enjoy continuing this conversation, you seem to have a very
good insight into the problem space and current deployed solution set. I'm
more interested in getting node mobility built into IPv6 the right way for
the long term at this point.

        I do not want to focus on IPv4 deployment issues that may arise with
existing implementations.

        It seems that getting strong BCPs in place for ingress filtering in
IPv6 with node mobility in mind is an important step in this regard.

        It seems that most people are supportive of limiting the filtering
to the edges of the network. This would help mobility immensely in that home
addresses could be used as the source address and remove a bunch of issues
with tunneling.

        How do think we could proceed, if at all, on these matters?

        Thanks,

        Glenn

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<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fb&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">how do you detect the bozos? I think =
the argument for using ingress</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">filtering all the time is that it =
does indeed detect most bozos.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gm&gt; Yes, I =
believe the bozos (aagh - what have I started?) should be detected on =
the first hop all of the time. I think we agree.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fb&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">By</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the way, the most usual implementation of =
ingress filtering goes rather</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">beyond what the RFC actually says - =
it uses a reverse path forwarding</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">check. This has its own dangers, =
however, related to asymmetric routing.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ingress filtering says &quot;if you =
are among a few known bad things, I will</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">detect you&quot;, meaning that on =
every packet I have to apply a number of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">rules. RPF says &quot;if it would be =
reasonable for me to forward to you along</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">this path, I will let you forward via =
me&quot;, which happens to be a single</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">lookup way to apply a much stronger =
rule set. But asymmetric routing may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">make it possible only for you to =
forward via me while I consider quite</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">another route to be my most =
reasonable route to you. Hence, ingress</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">filtering is usually only done at the =
edge-network-to-ISP interface;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ISP-ISP interfaces get eaten by =
asymmetric routing pretty badly.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gm&gt; Good points, =
thanks for bringing these up.</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fb&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I personally would favor a form of =
ingress filtering that ensures that only</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">addresses that may be found on a =
first-hop-router interface get used as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">sources - in short, that the MAC =
Source Address and the IP Source Address</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">indeed match at the first hop, or on =
a dial line, that the Source IP</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Address is the one that was assigned =
to the device dialing in. This would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">detect a lot of bozo =
addressing.</FONT>=20
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gm&gt; me too for =
the IP source address. I'm not so sure about the MAC address for all =
cases. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fb&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From an operational perspective, =
though,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">unless we made this somehow mandatory =
to turn on and had laws that imposed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">stiff fines for turning it off, =
operators could never trust it; they would</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">need to do their own RPF checks =
anyway, as this is the only defense that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">they could control.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gm&gt; Making it a =
standard BCP for IPv6 might be all that is needed.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A method of =
propagating amoung autonomous systems the turning of ingress filtering =
on and off on specific routes might allow for the detection of the =
attackers' network or address. Once detected, the offending nodes' =
connectivity could be prevented and then the filtering =
removed.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The drafts I =
mentioned are possibly the beginnings of such functionality.&nbsp; =
Think of it like a tool for detecting the location of the attacking =
node(s) and acting upon them.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If such a tool were =
available, it would allow detection and prosecution using existing =
laws. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If no remedies for =
prosecution were available and the provider refuses to enable the 1st =
hop filtering, the offending network might have to be denied at the AS =
level as purely a business decision of other providers. I could see how =
this might happen among belligerents across national =
borders.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">fb&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">And yes, I think they do in fact turn =
on the RPF check when they think it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">is appropriate, in many cases, as =
opposed to leaving it on all the time.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Note that if I require the IP Source =
Address and the MAC Address to match,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I just made COA addresses a failure =
case... This would have to be seen as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">an acceptable exception.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gm&gt; I'm not so =
sure about the MAC address needing to match for all cases. The standard =
first hop ingress filtering would work for the COA address without any =
additional routes etc.. in the first hop router. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The use of the home =
address as the source address would likely require that the first hop =
access router implement the concept of a binding cache. If the route is =
in the binding cache then ingress filtering probably does not need to =
be done. This assumes that very strong AAA is done before any entry is =
made into this binding cache - no matter what method of network access =
and COA assignment is used.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would enjoy =
continuing this conversation, you seem to have a very good insight into =
the problem space and current deployed solution set. I'm more =
interested in getting node mobility built into IPv6 the right way for =
the long term at this point. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I do not want to =
focus on IPv4 deployment issues that may arise with existing =
implementations. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It seems that =
getting strong BCPs in place for ingress filtering in IPv6 with node =
mobility in mind is an important step in this regard.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It seems that most =
people are supportive of limiting the filtering to the edges of the =
network. This would help mobility immensely in that home addresses =
could be used as the source address and remove a bunch of issues with =
tunneling. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">How do think we =
could proceed, if at all, on these matters?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Glenn</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From: leah262@EXCITE.COM
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] $131 per month total health insurance
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<HTML>
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<FONT color=3D"#0000FF"> <BR>
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How much commercial garbage can we expect to get on this list server?





leah262@EXCITE.COM on 10/10/2000 07:52:00 AM

Please respond to leah262@EXCITE.COM



To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
cc:    (bcc: Bryan Cook/Corporate/AirTouch)
Subject:  [MOBILE-IP] $131 per month total health insurance



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Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:36:16 +0300
Reply-To: "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@CC.HUT.FI>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@CC.HUT.FI>
Organization: HUT
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIP implementation !!!
X-To:         Vipul Gupta <Vipul.Gupta@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello.

Vipul Gupta wrote:
>
>        Other Linux implementations are available from:
>
>          o National University of Singapore (http://mip.ee.nus.sg/)
>
>          o Stanford University as part of the Mosquitonet project
>            (http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/)
>

I would add Dynamics -- HUT Mobile IP from Helsinki University of
Technology, Finland. Dynamics works on Linux 2.2 (And has been
compiled on a Linux in iPAQ even ;). There is pretty much
doucmentation available from two master's theses to couple of
conference papers and the current results of Dynamics code
documentation project.

The URL is below in the signature.

Regards,
        Tom

--
        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
                                Helsinki University of Technology
                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi

http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/


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Reply-To: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] $131 per month total health insurance
X-To:         Bryan.Cook@NOTES.AIRTOUCH.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID" <88256974.0073BCC4.00@Notes.airtouch.com>

>
> How much commercial garbage can we expect to get on this list server?

    I reached my breaking point a while ago, but what can you do?  Well, glad
I asked!  You can require the poster to be subscribed.  Yes, it'll be possible
for someone to {subscribe, spam, unsubscribe}, but since we *also* require
email confirmation (e.g. subscribe <email@addr> causes a "someone (probably
you) has requested this email address be added to <mip>" email to be generated
to <email@addr>, please reply with ########## to be added to <mip>) means:

        - the posting address must be reachable - no more spamming from
            unreply-able email addresses, which will likely make spammers
            feel more accountable, so they [likely] go away, and

        - no more spaming from the auto-spammers which (IMHO) will remove
              [somethine like / at least / whatever] 85% of the spam we see.

    Yes, it also means if you're subscribed as <me@myworld.com> you can't post
from <meagain@anotherworld.com> unless your mailer allows you to change from
and/or reply-to, and your ISP allows you to post (apparently) from a non-ISP
account.  Again, IMHO, I don't think that's a high price to pay to return to
mostly content on this list.

    Any chance we could [agree to] at least *try* this!?!

                              Cheers,
                                  Steve

> leah262@EXCITE.COM on 10/10/2000 07:52:00 AM
>
> Please respond to leah262@EXCITE.COM
>
>
>
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> cc:    (bcc: Bryan Cook/Corporate/AirTouch)
> Subject:  [MOBILE-IP] $131 per month total health insurance
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 10 20:47:12 2000
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From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...
X-cc:         thierry.ernst@crm.mot.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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Hi Thierry,

Some more comments below.

Cheers,
Hesham

> >      No it doesn't need to get an on link CoA, it keeps the same
> >      address,
> >      ie Home address. The MR (MAP) get a new CoA (topologially
> >      correct).
> >      It registers with the HA. The MNs attached to the MR (MAP)
> >      register
> >      the MAP's address as an alt-CoA with the HA. All packets destined
> >
> >      to the MNs get routed by the CNs to the MAP which then routes
> >      them
> >      to the MN's on link.
>
> >      What do you mean by an optimal route between the CN and MN ?
> >      Route optimisation is used in this case. Is there a more optimal
> >      route
>
> What care-of address contains the BU sent by the MN to its CNs ?   It
> contains the MR 's address, right ?  But the MR is also a mobile node,
> then the MR's address is in fact a home address.   Packets from the CN
> to the MN therefore get routed to the MR's HA.   There is no true route
> optimisation.   It is true that packets do not transit by the MN's HA,
> otherwise you would end up  in a double redirection.
>
        Ah, now I see what you mean. Sorry if this was not clear in the
        mail and the draft, I know the draft doesn't explain it very well
but
        we're having a second revision before San Diego and hopefully this
        section will be better explained. So let me answer your concern.
        What I meant to say was that the MR (MAP) will advertise its
        CoA for the MN's (or what you call FIXED) to use as alternate-CoA.
        So in that way you're always getting route optimised packets,
        ie. not via the HA.
        Does that make sense ? Of course this means that every time
        the MR will do a handoff, a new option will be advertised with a
        new address.

> >
> >      I'll read your draft again, but I don't know what you mean by a
> >      FIXED host ?
>
>
> A mobile network is not only a router, but a mobile router and all its
> attached nodes.  Those attached nodes are FIXED relative to the MR.
> The Mobile Network might even be composed of several routers (i.e. a set
> of subnetworks).
>
> A Mobile Node is a node that is visiting the mobile network by
> opposition to the FIXED nodes that always remain located in the mobile
> network (let's call them Mobile Network Nodes - nodes from the mobile
> network - MNNs).
>
        Ok, I understand now, thanks.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] A practical question...</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Thierry,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Some more comments =
below. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hesham</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; No =
it doesn't need to get an on link CoA, it keeps the same</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
address,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ie =
Home address. The MR (MAP) get a new CoA (topologially</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
correct).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It =
registers with the HA. The MNs attached to the MR (MAP)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
register</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
the MAP's address as an alt-CoA with the HA. All packets =
destined</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to =
the MNs get routed by the CNs to the MAP which then routes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
them</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to =
the MN's on link.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
What do you mean by an optimal route between the CN and MN ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Route optimisation is used in this case. Is there a more optimal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
route </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What care-of address contains the BU =
sent by the MN to its CNs ?&nbsp;&nbsp; It</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">contains the MR 's address, right =
?&nbsp; But the MR is also a mobile node,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">then the MR's address is in fact a =
home address.&nbsp;&nbsp; Packets from the CN</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to the MN therefore get routed to the =
MR's HA.&nbsp;&nbsp; There is no true route</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">optimisation.&nbsp;&nbsp; It is true =
that packets do not transit by the MN's HA,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">otherwise you would end up&nbsp; in a =
double redirection.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ah, now I see what =
you mean. Sorry if this was not clear in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">mail and the draft, =
I know the draft doesn't explain it very well but </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">we're having a =
second revision before San Diego and hopefully this </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">section will be =
better explained. So let me answer your concern. </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What I meant to say =
was that the MR (MAP) will advertise its </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">CoA for the MN's =
(or what you call FIXED) to use as alternate-CoA.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">So in that way =
you're always getting route optimised packets, </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ie. not via the HA. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Does that make =
sense ? Of course this means that every time </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">the MR will do a =
handoff, a new option will be advertised with a </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">new address.</FONT> =

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
I'll read your draft again, but I don't know what you mean by a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
FIXED host ?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A mobile network is not only a router, =
but a mobile router and all its</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">attached nodes.&nbsp; Those attached =
nodes are FIXED relative to the MR.&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The Mobile Network might even be =
composed of several routers (i.e. a set</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of =
subnetworks).&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A Mobile Node is a node that is =
visiting the mobile network by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">opposition to the FIXED nodes that =
always remain located in the mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">network (let's call them Mobile =
Network Nodes - nodes from the mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">network - MNNs).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ok, I understand =
now, thanks.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 02:30:45 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi,

the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the co-located foreign
agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile client so it is
not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the registration reply
for use in the next registration?

/Fredrik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Woo-June Kim
> Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
>
>
> Fredrik,
>
> The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> that must be generated in some special manner.
>
> cheers
>
> >BlankHi
> >
> >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is supposed to work
> >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> >
> >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with a challenge
> >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> Radius server to
> >authenticate the MN.
> >
> >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a solution in an
> >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> >
> >Regards
> >/Fredrik
> >-----------------------------------------
> >Fredrik Johansson
> >
> >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


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Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:33:22 +0900
Reply-To: Woo-June Kim <wjkim@samsung.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Woo-June Kim <wjkim@samsung.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Yes.

>Hi,
>
>the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
>agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
>registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the co-located foreign
>agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile client so it is
>not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the registration reply
>for use in the next registration?
>
>/Fredrik
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
>> [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Woo-June Kim
>> Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
>> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
>> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
>>
>>
>> Fredrik,
>>
>> The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
>> the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
>> the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
>> simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
>> round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
>> that must be generated in some special manner.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> >BlankHi
>> >
>> >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is supposed to work
>> >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
>> >
>> >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with a challenge
>> >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
>> >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
>> Radius server to
>> >authenticate the MN.
>> >
>> >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a solution in an
>> >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
>> >
>> >Regards
>> >/Fredrik
>> >-----------------------------------------
>> >Fredrik Johansson
>> >
>> >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
>> >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
>> >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
>> >http://www.ipunplugged.com

>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 02:55:11 2000
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Date:         Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:55:09 -0700
Reply-To: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last Call -
              (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Basavaraj.Patil@NOKIA.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <7B5C0390ACE7D211BC9C0008C7EABA2B01A6E359@daeis07nok>

Hello Eva, Annika, and Charlie:

Couple of questions/concerns regarding the reg-tunnel-03.txt

1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional registration request/reply messages. I think
this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.

        a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the GFA. You could as well use the extensions
for achieving regional registrations.

        b) In fact your version 02 of the draft (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.

Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions. Using existing messages with extensions makes
implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).

2. What is the implementation of the current version of the Draft (not the previous versions)?


Thanks
Gopal


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 03:40:40 2000
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From: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt and
              existing
              authorization             infrastructures
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Henry,

see comments below,

/Fredrik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Henry
> Haverinen
> Sent: den 10 oktober 2000 16:04
> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: [MOBILE-IP] draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt and existing
> authorization infrastructures
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> For those that are interested in MIP/AAA issues, please have
> a look at the attached message, which I sent to this mailing
> list a week ago. Any comments most welcome!
>
> Regards,
> Henry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: EXT Henry Haverinen [mailto:henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM]
> > Sent: 04. October 2000 15:31
> > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: [MOBILE-IP] The use of existing authorization infrastructures
> > with Mobile IP/ AAA
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In summary, I propose the following additions to
> > draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt in this mail.
> >
> > 1. Two new rules for FA behavior when receiving the AMA
> >    Command in response to the AMR Command:
> >
> >    a) If the AMA Command doesn't contain a MIP-Reg-Reply AVP,
> >       the FA must forward the Reg.Request in question
> >       to the HA itself.

How will the foreign agent know the address of the home agent, MIP/AAA
enables dynamic assignment of home agent, thus the home agent field in the
registration request may be set to 0.0.0.0

> >    b) If the AMA Command includes the Result-Code AVP
> >       set to an error, the FA sends the MN a Reg.Reply with an
> >       error code but nevertheless includes any AAA or key
> >       distribution extensions from the AMA Command.
> >
> > 2. One new rule for HA behaviour:
> >
> >    If the HA receives a Registration Request that contains
> >    the MN-AAA Authentication extension, either relayed by a
> >    FA or directly from a MN that is registering a co-located
> >    care-of address, the HA may issue the AMR Command in order
> >    to authorize the Reg.Request. The AMR Command includes some
> >    new flag which tells the AAA server that it does not have to
> >    contact the home agent, and that the request came directly
> >    from the home agent.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > The draft draft-haverinen-mobileip-gsmsim-00.txt describes how the
> > existing GSM authorization infrastructure can be leveraged to achieve
> > mobile user authorization for Mobile IP. The idea is not to use the
> > GSM radio access technology, but to show how GSM SIM authorization
> > could be used for Mobile IP authorization over any link layer, for
> > example on WLAN hot spots. I'm writing a new revision of the draft
> > which will fix the issues discussed on this mailing list and make the
> > protocol to use the Mobile IP AAA extensions, so that the mobility
> > agents don't need to be GSM SIM aware.
> >
> > The general model of leveraging an existing large scale
> > authorization/charging infrastructure is very important because
> > building new authorization infrastructures from scratch is hard:
> > getting the necessary contracts and agreements in place takes effort
> > and time. GSM authorization infrastructure is just one example of
> > an existing large scale authorization infrastructure.  Another such
> > global infrastructure is the credit-card infra: e.g., consider
> > the following scenario: I travel to a new location, pay the local
> > ISP using my credit card, and continue to use Mobile IP with an HA
> > in my home ISP.
> >
> > In my opinion, any MIP/AAA proposal should be able to easily support
> > use of existing authorization infrastructures because it will greatly
> > speed up deployment of Mobile IP. However, the current MIP/AAA drafts
> > (e.g., draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt) have a couple of
> > assumptions that do not support such authorization. The important
> > aspect is that when existing authorization infrastructures are used,
> > HA and AAAH are not necessarily under the same administrative control,
> > and are not co-located. They are probably not even close to each
> > other.
> >
> > Let's use the term AAAH to denote the AAA server that can authorize
> > the user, and probably charge/bill the user where necessary. In the
> > GSM SIM case, the AAAH is the Authentication Centre (AuC) which
> > resides deep inside the GSM network.
> >
> > The foreign domain may have a local AAA network which includes a AAA
> > server that has an interface to the GSM network. In this case, the
> > local AAA network is able to reach the AAAH but the AAA network isn't
> > able to reach the home agent, as the current MIP/AAA drafts assume.
> > Suppose that a FA issues the DIAMETER AA-Mobile-Node-Request (AMR)
> > Command to authorize a Registration Request that uses GSM SIM. The
> > current view is that the the response from AAA (AA-Mobile-Node-Answer,
> > AMA Command) includes the Registration Reply from the HA in a
> > MIP-Reg-Reply AVP, which isn't possible in this case.
> >
> > One way to support such authorization would be to add a new rule to
> > the operation of the FA: if the response from the AAA doesn't contain
> > the Registration Reply, the FA must forward the request to the HA
> > itself.
> >
> > Besides the reachability of the HA through the AAA network,
> > the GSM SIM
> > authorization breaks another assumption. A mobile node that
> > is using GSM SIM is not able to provide the visited domain with
> > complete yet unforgeable credentials without ever having been in touch
> > with its home domain, as required in
> > draft-ietf-mobileip-aaa-reqs-04.txt.
> > This is because GSM SIM requires true challenge/response
> > authentication
> > where AAAH generates the challenge. In other words, it takes two round
> > trips to authorize the MN. The AAA response in the first round trip
> > contains the challenge. The result code in the response indicates that
> > the user was not authorized.
> >
> > True challenge/response could be supported by adding another
> > new rule to the operation of the FA: if the AAA responds to the
> > FA's authorization request with an error, the FA sends the MN a
> > Reg.Reply with an error code but nevertheless includes any AAA or key
> > distribution extensions from the AAA response. These
> > extensions contain
> > the challenge. The MN is now able to send another Reg.Request
> > for which
> > the authorization will be successful.
> >
> > The same approach can also be used to for authorization in the home
> > domain. Both HA and FA can use the same AAAH (located elsewhere) for
> > authorizing the mobile user.
> >
> > The HA may receive a Reg.Request (from a co-located MN or a FA) that
> > contains the MN-AAA Authentication extension. The HA could then pass
> > the request to the AAA network, for example with the DIAMETER AMR
> > Command, and the AAA network would respond with the AMA command, using
> > the AAAH on the GSM network. Here we probably need a new flag
> > in the AAA
> > request that tells the AAA server that it does not have to contact the
> > home agent, and that the request came directly from the home agent.
> >

Why not go through a local AAA which may provide the AAAH with the
Foreign-Home-Agent-Available AVP, the AAAH can then authenticate the user
and its a policy decision in the AAAH to allow the AAA in the local network
to provide a HA, thus no need for the AAAH to contact a HA. So the mechanism
is available today without any modifications to the draft.

Regards
/Fredrik

> >
> > Regards,
> > Henry
> >
> > P.S. I'd like to acknowledge that Asokan (n.asokan@nokia.com)
> > has contributed a lot in these ideas and in this mail. Many thanks!
> >


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 05:31:24 2000
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Reply-To: henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Henry Haverinen <henry.haverinen@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] draft-calhoun-diameter-mobileip-10.txt and existi
              ng
              authorization  infrastructures
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Fredrik,

Thanks for your comments. Please see my notes below.

> > >    a) If the AMA Command doesn't contain a MIP-Reg-Reply AVP,
> > >       the FA must forward the Reg.Request in question
> > >       to the HA itself.
>
> How will the foreign agent know the address of the home agent, MIP/AAA
> enables dynamic assignment of home agent, thus the home agent
> field in the
> registration request may be set to 0.0.0.0

If the MN doesn't know its home agent and sets the home agent field to
0.0.0.0 or 255.255.255.255, then this rule cannot be applied. This rule
doesn't break dynamic home agent assignment, but it can be useful when
the MN already knows its HA. Either a home agent has been assigned for the
MN with an earlier registration (perhaps through another access network),
or the MN is statically configured with the address of the home agent.

Suppose that a MN is assigned a HA though the first network it visits.
Perhaps the first network assigns the HA, or the first network has AAA
connectivity to the user's corporate network which assigns the HA.
Suppose that the MN then moves to another network, and the AAA cloud of
the second access network is isolated from the HA, for example because
the second network only has a backend GSM authentication server. In this
case, a FA on the second access network could authorize the Reg.Request
using its local AAA, and then apply the rule above and forward the request
to the HA.

> > > The HA may receive a Reg.Request (from a co-located MN or
> a FA) that
> > > contains the MN-AAA Authentication extension. The HA
> could then pass
> > > the request to the AAA network, for example with the DIAMETER AMR
> > > Command, and the AAA network would respond with the AMA
> command, using
> > > the AAAH on the GSM network. Here we probably need a new flag
> > > in the AAA
> > > request that tells the AAA server that it does not have
> to contact the
> > > home agent, and that the request came directly from the
> home agent.
> > >
>
> Why not go through a local AAA which may provide the AAAH with the
> Foreign-Home-Agent-Available AVP, the AAAH can then
> authenticate the user
> and its a policy decision in the AAAH to allow the AAA in the
> local network
> to provide a HA, thus no need for the AAAH to contact a HA.
> So the mechanism
> is available today without any modifications to the draft.

There is no mechanism available for the case that the MN already
has a HA which isn't reachable by the AAA of the visited network.
The Foreign-Home-Agent-Available AVP doesn't help here, although
it can be used to assign the HA in the beginning.

Regards,
Henry


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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIP implementation !!!
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Mee too, I've compiled and I'm maintaining a sort of list of mobile
ipv6 implementations.  Here it is.

Mobile IPv6 implementations
---------------------------
KAME
-bsd-ish.
-Mobile-IPv6 code from Ericsson.
-draft 09.

INRIA HMIP
-Hierarchical Mobile IPv6.
-FreeBSD and Francis Dupont's IPv6 stack.
-draft 09.

MONARCH
-bsd-ish.
-1997.
-draft 03.

MICROSOFT RESEARCH
-Windows.
-partial IPv6 mobility support.

NUS (National Univ of Singapore)
-linux.

LANCASTER UNIVERSITY
-linux
-draft-ietf-mobileip-ipv6-05
-Stefan Schmid, sschmid@COMP.LANCS.AC.UK.

MIPL at hut.fi
-linux 2.4.0
-Sami Kivisaari, Niklas Kämpe, Juha Mynttinen, Toni Nykänen, Henrik
 Petander and Antti Tuominen
-draft-12.

FRANCIS DUPONT
-has a mipv6 implementation based on his ipv6 stack.


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Message-ID:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.971271585.26132.pcalhoun@nasnfs.eng>
Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 06:39:45 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <FCEOICMNBENHKBADAGFBCENKCBAA.fredrik.johansson@ipunplugged.com>

Well, perhaps I am missing something here, but I really don't see the need for
challenge/response support in a co-located MN. The challenge is useful to FAs
to provide replay protection. Since MNs already have a replay protection
scheme with the Home Agent, the challenge doesn't provide anything additional.

PatC
> Hi,
>
> the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
> agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the co-located foreign
> agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile client so it is
> not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the registration reply
> for use in the next registration?
>
> /Fredrik
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Woo-June Kim
> > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> >
> >
> > Fredrik,
> >
> > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > that must be generated in some special manner.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > >BlankHi
> > >
> > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is supposed to work
> > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > >
> > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with a challenge
> > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > Radius server to
> > >authenticate the MN.
> > >
> > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a solution in an
> > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >/Fredrik
> > >-----------------------------------------
> > >Fredrik Johansson
> > >
> > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 10:02:38 2000
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From: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.971271585.26132.pcalhoun@nasnfs.eng>
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Hi Pat,

It was not to provide replay protection but to enable the home agent to
authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP. In the radius
request a challenge and  a response is needed. Using the MN-HA
Authentication extension does not provide a challenge.

Or is there another way of doing this?

/Fredrik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM]
> Sent: den 11 oktober 2000 16:40
> To: Fredrik Johansson
> Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
>
>
> Well, perhaps I am missing something here, but I really don't see
> the need for
> challenge/response support in a co-located MN. The challenge is
> useful to FAs
> to provide replay protection. Since MNs already have a replay protection
> scheme with the Home Agent, the challenge doesn't provide
> anything additional.
>
> PatC
> > Hi,
> >
> > the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
> > agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> > registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the
> co-located foreign
> > agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile
> client so it is
> > not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the
> registration reply
> > for use in the next registration?
> >
> > /Fredrik
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of
> Woo-June Kim
> > > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > >
> > >
> > > Fredrik,
> > >
> > > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > > that must be generated in some special manner.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > >BlankHi
> > > >
> > > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is
> supposed to work
> > > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > > >
> > > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with
> a challenge
> > > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > > Radius server to
> > > >authenticate the MN.
> > > >
> > > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a
> solution in an
> > > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > > >
> > > >Regards
> > > >/Fredrik
> > > >-----------------------------------------
> > > >Fredrik Johansson
> > > >
> > > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 10:14:02 2000
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Message-ID:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.971272945.31316.pcalhoun@nasnfs.eng>
Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 07:02:25 -0700
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@eng.sun.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@eng.sun.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@ipunplugged.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <FCEOICMNBENHKBADAGFBKEOGCBAA.fredrik.johansson@ipunplugged.com>

Ahh... sorry. I thought your question was in regards to the challenge
extension, and not the MN-AAA authentication extension.

In any case, for the latter, it does require that the former be present, and
the mobile can generate its own challenge (hmmmm.... quite insecure, isn't
it). I am also tempted to say that the Home Agent should return an new error
code with a challenge value, and force the Mobile Node to re-register.

Unfortunately, the soon to be RFC doesn't discuss co-location.

PatC
> Hi Pat,
>
> It was not to provide replay protection but to enable the home agent to
> authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP. In the radius
> request a challenge and  a response is needed. Using the MN-HA
> Authentication extension does not provide a challenge.
>
> Or is there another way of doing this?
>
> /Fredrik
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM]
> > Sent: den 11 oktober 2000 16:40
> > To: Fredrik Johansson
> > Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> >
> >
> > Well, perhaps I am missing something here, but I really don't see
> > the need for
> > challenge/response support in a co-located MN. The challenge is
> > useful to FAs
> > to provide replay protection. Since MNs already have a replay protection
> > scheme with the Home Agent, the challenge doesn't provide
> > anything additional.
> >
> > PatC
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
> > > agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> > > registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the
> > co-located foreign
> > > agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile
> > client so it is
> > > not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the
> > registration reply
> > > for use in the next registration?
> > >
> > > /Fredrik
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > > > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of
> > Woo-June Kim
> > > > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > > > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fredrik,
> > > >
> > > > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > > > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > > > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > > > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > > > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > > > that must be generated in some special manner.
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > >
> > > > >BlankHi
> > > > >
> > > > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is
> > supposed to work
> > > > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > > > >
> > > > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with
> > a challenge
> > > > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > > > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > > > Radius server to
> > > > >authenticate the MN.
> > > > >
> > > > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a
> > solution in an
> > > > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > > > >
> > > > >Regards
> > > > >/Fredrik
> > > > >-----------------------------------------
> > > > >Fredrik Johansson
> > > > >
> > > > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > > > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > > > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > > > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 13:55:19 2000
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Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:46:10 -0700
Reply-To: Meeta Sharma <meeta@CATARINA.USC.EDU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Meeta Sharma <meeta@CATARINA.USC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Registration Reply
X-To:         "Gowri S.Makineni" <makineni@ECUTEL.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.20001010090725.0132b100@hub.ecutel.com>

hi,
thanks for this reply..
i have another question..
The HA agent might only have the option of supporting one binding..and
then if it gets a req(i+1)..and it has already granted req(i) for the same
binding then would it reject(i+1)?
also, then if it rejects then the tunnel would not be complete..?
I am wrong somewhere in my conclusion?
Thanks,
Regards,
-Meeta

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Gowri S.Makineni wrote:

> At 04:08 PM 10/9/00 -0700, Meeta Sharma wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >I was looking into mobile ip(rfc 2002) for one of my projects. I had a
> >question:
> >What happens when the registration reply(i) from foreign agent to mobile
> >node is delayed? It can happen that the timer at the mobile node expires
> >and that the mobile node sends another request(i+1)..but then it gets a
> >reply(i) would it accept it or reject it?
>
> If the timer expires at the mobile node, it sends another registration
> request,
> and discards replies to the previous requests that it sent.
>
> >Also, what if Foreign agent sees that it had sent a reply for (i) and now
> >is getting a request(i+1) then would it discard it or send the reply back
> >again? without going to the home agent?
>
> The foreign agent forwards all "proper" requests that it receives and forwards
> them to the respective agents. Your (i+1) request is also forwarded to your
> HA.
> The replies of i and i+1 requests from the HA would be sent to the mobile
> node provided time out does not occur at the FA.
>
> >I am a little confused and maybe the answers would help me in my model.
> >Thanks,
> >Regards,
> >Meeta
> >
> Hope that helps.
> GSM
> Gowri S. Makineni
> Sr. Systems Engineer,
> Ecutel
> (703)354-4140 X-110
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 14:08:33 2000
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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
X-To:         "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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Alessio,

Consider the actual case of dynamic QoS provisioning: In mobile access
networks, traffic sources are either unknown in advance, or for scalability
reason, the provisioning is done only when the MN registers with the
network. For that the PDP, for example, may use the NAI extension to
retrieve the MN's QoS profile.

But, we should not limit ourselves only to the extensions that are defined.
In general, the mobility raises new questions on how MN and mobility agents
should operate with regards to QoS management and enforcement. COPS-MIP
provides a flexible mechanism through which MIP extensions are exchanged
between the PEP and the PDP, in order to decide the modes in which the MN
and the mobility agents should operate. For example, consider the situation
where the MN moves to a new location (within the same or to a different
foreign network), with active QoS sessions. When registering, MN may express
preferences as to whether the granted QoS be dropped (hard requirements), or
downgraded (adaptive QoS) if the capabilities (wireless link + network) at
the new location are limited.

Hope these examples help understand why we need a new COPS client to handle
policy management for mobile IP.

- Abderrahmane

-----Original Message-----
From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [mailto:acasati@LUCENT.COM]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 5:40 AM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt


> Abderrahmane;
>
First off, thanks for your answer.

> Alessio,
>
> First let me say that I agree this section might have introduced some
> confusion. It is only meant to capture the requirements of message
> ordering for authentication as defined by mobile IP, in case the PDP is
> involved in "handling" authentication extensions. The PDP's involvement
> may be, for example, in acting as an "attendant" (on behalf of the
> mobility agent) to the AAA server before making any policy decision.
>
>
I agree with you the current text may have generated some confusion.
I  would suggest, if you have time,
you provide an applicability example, based on current
mobile IP extension, of the proposed COPS-MIP client.
This would be very helpful to fully understand your proposal
and to let the Mobile IP list to evaluate it and provide
useful comments.


> As I stated it in my first email, during the writing of this draft, it was
> not clear (still is not) for us how AAA would interact with a policy
> server to handle common situations. But one should agree that it is hard
> to see that section 4 describes any AAA mechanism, or explains the AAA
> model for MIP.
>
I agree that the section does not describe an AAA model for MIP.
In fact, the AAA model for MIP is well defined, and this proposal would seem
to
try to comply with it. That's why there are voices expressing the worry
that this would introduce some overlap/conflict with the work currently
ongoing in
the AAA WG (where after two year a protocol has been selected
to base AAA for network access on).

Your text hints to the possibility to use the PDP to perform
authentication. We need to have a clear understanding of this and other
applicability cases of your proposal. You would probably have to
bring to the list cases (or a single case) supporting the necessity of your
proposal. Could you please do that as soon as you have some
leftover time?  I'd wholeheartedly support any proposals of
necessary building blocks to support policy control in conjunction with
mobile IP. I have to understand whether this is one such building block
we are missing.

Thanks


alessio

------_=_NextPart_001_01C033AD.D3719910
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Alessio,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Consider the actual case of dynamic QoS provisioning: =
In mobile access networks, traffic sources are either unknown in =
advance, or for scalability reason, the provisioning is done only when =
the MN registers with the network. For that the PDP, for example, may =
use the NAI extension to retrieve the MN's QoS profile. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>But, we should not limit ourselves only to the =
extensions that are defined. In general, the mobility raises new =
questions on how MN and mobility agents should operate with regards to =
QoS management and enforcement. COPS-MIP provides a flexible mechanism =
through which MIP extensions are exchanged between the PEP and the PDP, =
in order to decide the modes in which the MN and the mobility agents =
should operate. For example, consider the situation where the MN moves =
to a new location (within the same or to a different foreign network), =
with active QoS sessions. When registering, MN may express preferences =
as to whether the granted QoS be dropped (hard requirements), or =
downgraded (adaptive QoS) if the capabilities (wireless link + network) =
at the new location are limited.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hope these examples help understand why we need a new =
COPS client to handle policy management for mobile IP.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>- Abderrahmane</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Casati, Alessio (Alessio) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:acasati@LUCENT.COM">mailto:acasati@LUCENT.COM</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 5:40 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D =
ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Abderrahmane;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>First off, thanks for your answer.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Alessio,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; First let me say that I agree this section =
might have introduced some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; confusion. It is only meant to capture the =
requirements of message</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ordering for authentication as defined by =
mobile IP, in case the PDP is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; involved in &quot;handling&quot; authentication =
extensions. The PDP's involvement</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; may be, for example, in acting as an =
&quot;attendant&quot; (on behalf of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; mobility agent) to the AAA server before making =
any policy decision.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I agree with you the current text may have generated =
some confusion.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I&nbsp; would suggest, if you have time,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>you provide an applicability example, based on =
current</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>mobile IP extension, of the proposed COPS-MIP =
client.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>This would be very helpful to fully understand your =
proposal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and to let the Mobile IP list to evaluate it and =
provide</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>useful comments.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; As I stated it in my first email, during the =
writing of this draft, it was</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not clear (still is not) for us how AAA would =
interact with a policy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; server to handle common situations. But one =
should agree that it is hard</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to see that section 4 describes any AAA =
mechanism, or explains the AAA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; model for MIP.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I agree that the section does not describe an AAA =
model for MIP.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>In fact, the AAA model for MIP is well defined, and =
this proposal would seem</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>try to comply with it. That's why there are voices =
expressing the worry</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that this would introduce some overlap/conflict with =
the work currently</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ongoing in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the AAA WG (where after two year a protocol has been =
selected</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to base AAA for network access on).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Your text hints to the possibility to use the PDP to =
perform</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>authentication. We need to have a clear =
understanding of this and other</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>applicability cases of your proposal. You would =
probably have to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>bring to the list cases (or a single case) =
supporting the necessity of your</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>proposal. Could you please do that as soon as you =
have some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>leftover time?&nbsp; I'd wholeheartedly support any =
proposals of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>necessary building blocks to support policy control =
in conjunction with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>mobile IP. I have to understand whether this is one =
such building block</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>we are missing.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>alessio</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C033AD.D3719910--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 14:31:18 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Basavaraj Patil <Basavaraj.Patil@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Spam problems on the list
X-To:         Steven.Glass@east.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Steve,

I have absolutely no issues about doing some kind of filtering to
avoid some of the junk that seems to be creeping in on this
mailing list. However the rule for the list(s) is to be able to allow
anyone to be able to post to the list, meaning allowing someone
who has never registered with the Mobile IP list to be able to post.

-Basavaraj


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 14:41:59 2000
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From: "Gowri S.Makineni" <makineni@ECUTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Registration Reply
X-To:         Meeta Sharma <meeta@CATARINA.USC.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSF.4.10.10010111044050.7801-100000@catarina>

At 10:46 AM 10/11/00 -0700, Meeta Sharma wrote:
>hi,
>thanks for this reply..
>i have another question..
>The HA agent might only have the option of supporting one binding..and
>then if it gets a req(i+1)..and it has already granted req(i) for the same
>binding then would it reject(i+1)?
>also, then if it rejects then the tunnel would not be complete..?
>I am wrong somewhere in my conclusion?

The registration gets updated, since the shuttle uses the same care of address
of the FA. The HA does not distinguish between the request of i+1 or i+10.
If you want multiple bindings the shuttle should specify that it
needs bindings and turn the 'S' bit flag ON in the registration request or
else
the information at the HA is just updated for that shuttle.

By the definition of bindings means that the shuttle has multiple care of
addresses and it is registering all those addresses with the HA.

-GSM

>Thanks,
>Regards,
>-Meeta

Gowri Shankar Makineni
Sr. Systems Engineer,
Ecutel
(703)354-4140 X-110
----------------------------------------------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 14:59:54 2000
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Basavaraj Patil wrote:
        [..]
> However the rule for the list(s) is to be able to allow
> anyone to be able to post to the list, meaning allowing someone
> who has never registered with the Mobile IP list to be able to post.

I dont see the conclusion follows directly from the stated goal.
Introducing a scheme whereby first-time posters must validate
that they are posting from a marginally long-lived account doesn't
prevent "anyone" from posting, it just prevents "once off" accounts
from posting.

cheers,
gja


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 15:11:01 2000
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Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:08:58 +0100
Reply-To: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Casati, Alessio (Alessio)" <acasati@LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-jaseem-rap-cops-mip-00.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Abderrahmane,

> Consider the actual case of dynamic QoS provisioning: In mobile access
> networks, traffic sources are either unknown in advance, or for
> scalability reason, the provisioning is done only when the MN registers
> with the network. For that the PDP, for example, may use the NAI extension
> to retrieve the MN's QoS profile.
>
I guess the (QoS) profile(s) is (are) downloaded from a HSS.
I would say the AAA protocol could work fine as
a carrier of any profile.

It would be nice that all profiles were downloaded
at registration time,
so that there would be no roundtrips
before taking any policy enforcement action.

Now, let's suppose we download the
profile(s) to a PDP, since the device
the user is attached too has storage
limitations (quite unlikely in cellular networks,
but we don't want to limit the scope of
the work to cellular systems).

However, I see queries being directed to
the PDP only if requests are incoming
at times different from the registration.
If so, those requests could include mobile IP
extensions (if they are using mobile IP enhancements????)
defined to comply with COPS-RSVP.
And as such we wouldn't need to use
any new COPS client. Besides, if the
Qos signaling mechanism was RSVP, of course RSVP
client would be used.

If instead the QoS profile is
is installed at registration time,
then the FA could receive it and use it
from the AAA client.
How does it sound???

>  For example, consider the situation where the MN moves to a new location
> (within the same or to a different foreign network), with active QoS
> sessions. When registering, MN may express preferences as to whether the
> granted QoS be dropped (hard requirements), or downgraded (adaptive QoS)
> if the capabilities (wireless link + network) at the new location are
> limited.
>
I would support your proposal if I had in front of me facts,
rather than forward looking statements. I have no clear understanding
of this latter example operation in terms of mobile IP extensions usage
(could RSVP or COPS RSVP be extended instead?)

In fact,  in the face of the previous  scenario
you have presented showing we need COPS-MIP, I was hopefully able to
give a counter-example that makes it not necessary.

Could we say that we may keep
your proposal dormant until we know exactly the scope of its use?
That is we have the extensions we want to use and determined
the best way we want to use them ? This would be my stance for now.

thanks

alessio


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Reply-To: Bryan.Cook@NOTES.AIRTOUCH.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Bryan Cook <Bryan.Cook@NOTES.AIRTOUCH.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Registration Reply
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Greeting Mobile IP folks,

I am very new to this list, so forgive me if my questions seems inappropriate.
I work for a large
cellular company (you might have heard of it).  I am interested in the
following:

-  What are currently the "hot points" surrounding Mobile IP, i.e. what broad
topics are debated
that still need resolved?
- Are there any people out there (or groups) that are looking at Mobile IP
specifically from a
large cellular provider perspective?  What topics bear the strongest relevance
to this application?
- Interoperability:  Who is managing interop for large developers of Mobile IP
products (Cisco, Nortel,
Lucent, etc.)
- What is the current status of the standard?

I would certainly appreciate answers to these questions, or referals to sources
of info if that is
appropriate as well!

Thanks much.....

P.S. Count one more vote in favor of the tarring and feathering of spammers





"Gowri S.Makineni" <makineni@ECUTEL.COM> on 10/11/2000 12:39:58 PM

Please respond to "Gowri S.Makineni" <makineni@ECUTEL.COM>



To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
cc:    (bcc: Bryan Cook/Corporate/AirTouch)
Subject:  Re: [MOBILE-IP] Registration Reply



At 10:46 AM 10/11/00 -0700, Meeta Sharma wrote:
>hi,
>thanks for this reply..
>i have another question..
>The HA agent might only have the option of supporting one binding..and
>then if it gets a req(i+1)..and it has already granted req(i) for the same
>binding then would it reject(i+1)?
>also, then if it rejects then the tunnel would not be complete..?
>I am wrong somewhere in my conclusion?

The registration gets updated, since the shuttle uses the same care of address
of the FA. The HA does not distinguish between the request of i+1 or i+10.
If you want multiple bindings the shuttle should specify that it
needs bindings and turn the 'S' bit flag ON in the registration request or
else
the information at the HA is just updated for that shuttle.

By the definition of bindings means that the shuttle has multiple care of
addresses and it is registering all those addresses with the HA.

-GSM

>Thanks,
>Regards,
>-Meeta

Gowri Shankar Makineni
Sr. Systems Engineer,
Ecutel
(703)354-4140 X-110
----------------------------------------------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 16:43:28 2000
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Message-ID:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.971296273.17463.glass@purol.east>
Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:31:13 -0400
Reply-To: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Spam problems on the list
X-To:         Basavaraj.Patil@NOKIA.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <7B5C0390ACE7D211BC9C0008C7EABA2B01A6E3D9@daeis07nok>

> Steve,
>
> I have absolutely no issues about doing some kind of filtering to
> avoid some of the junk that seems to be creeping in on this
> mailing list. However the rule for the list(s) is to be able to allow
> anyone to be able to post to the list, meaning allowing someone
> who has never registered with the Mobile IP list to be able to post.

> -Basavaraj

    I can appreciate this position, in spirit.  The issue seems to be whether
requiring subscription to post makes a list closed.  I thought the IPNG WG had
a 'subscribe to post' policy, but I may be mistaken (it wouldn't allow us to
automatically impose such a policy, but if the WG decided it wanted to go that
route, it would certainly be evidence to allow us to do so).

    An open or closed list (to me) has always been defined as who's allowed to
subscribe.  Since we allow anyone to subscribe, I think the list is open
regardless of requiring subscription to post.  I understand that there are
those among us who want to be able to post without seeing every message, such
as our IESG folks, and I don't want to exclude their postings, but they can be
added as special cases to the posting rules - e.g.

    if (subscribed(fromAddr)) || (IsIESG(fromAddr)) {
        allow();
    } else {
        devNull();
    }

    Taking this to an extreme, we can also accomodate those who want to be
able to post from multiple addresses w/o requiring them to subscribe both
addresses, we just simply add a post-option to the list, that is have a
post-list which is different from the distribution list.

    In IESG terms, this 'filtering' labels a list as "moderated."  From
http://www.ietf.org/IESG/STATEMENTS/moderated-lists.txt :


    IESG guidance on the moderation of IETF Working Group Mailing Lists
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    In some cases, it is necessary and appropriate to moderate IETF
    mailing lists. For example, moderation might be needed to control
    excessive spam, persistent off-topic postings, persistent personal
    attacks, etc. on mailing lists.  The IESG has devised the following
    set of guidelines for the moderation of mailing lists.

    1) The appropriate AD(s) must approve of a list being moderated.

    2) The WG should be kept informed of a mailing list's moderation
       policy. For example, a message could be posted to the mailing list
       on a regular basis, or new members could be sent the policy as part
       of the welcome message when subscribing.

    3) Messages should be accepted or rejected in whole; selective editing
       of messages to remove off-topic content is not permitted.

    4) When rejecting a note, a note must be returned to the author with
       a short explanation.

    5) Rejected notes should be saved for a reasonable period of time, so
       that there is a record in the event a dispute arises.

    6) Items 3-5 apply to all manually rejected messages that require some
       thinking on the part of the moderator. They do not apply to obvious
       off-topic "make money fast" messages, or messages rejected through
       generic automated means (i.e., automated spam-filters on mailing
       list software).

    In item (2) I would opt for a policy-notice upon subscription.  Note also
that (it seems) 3-5 could be done automatically based on any policy the ADs
allow (based on WG request/recommendation).  I would presume it can include a
'subscription list' policy, if that's what the WG wishes to propose to the AD.

                              Cheers,
                                  Steve


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Reply-To: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySup
              port  in
              IPv6"draft]
X-To:         Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@nortelnetworks.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <36FA02BD7083D411BC9E0000F8073E438CEECC@crchy271.us.nortel. com>

At 10:03 AM 10/10/00 -0500, Glenn Morrow wrote:
>gm> I'm not so sure about the MAC address needing to match for all cases.
>The standard first hop ingress filtering would work for the COA address
>without any additional routes etc.. in the first hop router.

Well, I mentioned MAC Address to IP Source Address mapping on the first
routed hop because many of those are in fact on LANs and there is a
correlation that can be checked. When the first routed hop is also a COA
(or a designated address on the system, perhaps a loopback address, is a
COA), it would be easy enough to add its own address to the list of
acceptable mappings. My point here is that a common attack mode is that
some system fabricates traffic as if from some other system. If the system
is topologically distinct, an RPF check will catch it. If the other system
is or appears to be on the same LAN, the RPF check will not. correlating
MAC and IP Source Address should catch that.

That said, obviously not all attachments are LAN attachments, and getting
anything to happen universally is a nightmare. So for dial-up and related,
one maybe could assume that only a small set of addresses are acceptable
form the far end, and beyond that we're back to RPF checks.

>I do not want to focus on IPv4 deployment issues that may arise with
>existing implementations.
I don't believe I have mentioned IPv4 other than pointing to operational
experience. What we are talking about maps equally to IPv4 or IPv6.
>It seems that most people are supportive of limiting the filtering to the
>edges of the network. This would help mobility immensely in that home
>addresses could be used as the source address and remove a bunch of issues
>with tunneling.
Have you gotten any operators to say that? You haven't made much of a case
until you have operational support.


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------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C03438.6141F7A0--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 11 22:26:34 2000
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Message-ID:  <39E5206D.2543EC06@iprg.nokia.com>
Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 19:22:37 -0700
Reply-To: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello,

The statement has been made that the Registration Request does
not contain a challenge.  This isn't correct.  The "Identification" field
of the Registration Request message serves exactly the function
of a challenge, from the standpoint of the home agent.  I reckon it
would be fairly easy to establish a security association between the
mobile node and the home agent that would enable RADIUS to
be used by the home agent, but there are details that would have
to be worked out.

Regards,
Charlie P.


Fredrik Johansson wrote:

> Hi,
>
> the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
> agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the co-located foreign
> agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile client so it is
> not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the registration reply
> for use in the next registration?
>
> /Fredrik
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Woo-June Kim
> > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> >
> >
> > Fredrik,
> >
> > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > that must be generated in some special manner.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > >BlankHi
> > >
> > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is supposed to work
> > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > >
> > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with a challenge
> > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > Radius server to
> > >authenticate the MN.
> > >
> > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a solution in an
> > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >/Fredrik
> > >-----------------------------------------
> > >Fredrik Johansson
> > >
> > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 00:15:11 2000
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Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:10:54 -0700
Reply-To: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last Call
              -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Gopal,

> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional registration request/reply messages. I think
> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.

We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
Appendix A.  We think that processing is very much more
natural for the case when there are separate message types,
instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
making extensions to the existing messages would have
the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
levels of hierarchy.

It's not a simple issue.


>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
> registrations.

That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home registration.

> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.

We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've alluded to already.

> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions. Using existing messages with extensions makes
> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).

On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the implementation
easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not have to build
up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have mentioned already,
there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I think that the
protocol needs to handle all cases as best it can do.

> 2. What is the implementation of the current version of the Draft (not the previous versions)?

We have an implementation.  I have heard of others, which of course I don't
want to disclose without permission.  Maybe we should try for an interoperability
test.

Regards,
Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 01:03:33 2000
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Date:         Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:51:12 -0500
Reply-To: donald453@BBC.CO.UK
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: donald453@BBC.CO.UK
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To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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(a) the number & name of the report you are ordering

(b) your e-mail address, and

(c) your name & postal address.

REPORT #1 "The Insider´s Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
Andrew Skidmore
9379 Alexander Rd
Alexander, NY  14005
USA

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Skejbygaardsvej 7, 1, 10
8240 Risskov
Denmark

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ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
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PO Box 3281
Lihue, HI 96766

REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel

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ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
Zac Majors
2242 E Woodchuck Way
Sandy, UT 84093

******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS *******

TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the
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Order the reports and follow the program outlined above--
SUCCESS will be your reward.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a
business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your
local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal Agency) at
1-800-827-5722 for free help and answers to questions.

Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and
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dependent on your activities and advertising. The information contained
on
this site and in the report constitutes no guarantees stated nor
implied. In the event that it is determined that this site or report
constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. The
earnings
amounts listed on this site and in the report are estimates only. If you

have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office
of
Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission,
Bureau
of Consumer Protection in Washington, DC.

================================================

Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter
cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact
information and a method of removal.

This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is
necessary.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 01:34:44 2000
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Reply-To: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last Call
              -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Charlie Perkins <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Charlie,


1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out requiring new messages, it is
possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.

2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be where the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e, in one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there, in the regional case
it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..

3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new messages are given below:

                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
                            between regional registrations and home
                            registrations, because when it uses
                            regional registration, the nounces are not
                            synchronized with its home agent;

                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
                            registration) or to signify the use of an
                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
                            regional registration).

Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.

more comments below:


>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional registration request/reply messages. I think
>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
>
>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
>making extensions to the existing messages would have
>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration

Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
an extension.


>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
>levels of hierarchy.

don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.

moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the home registration also.


>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
>> registrations.
>
>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home registration.

It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the message and the extensions.


>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
>
>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've alluded to already.
>
>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions. Using existing messages with extensions makes
>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
>
>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the implementation
>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not have to build
>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have mentioned already,
>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I think that the

could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?


Regards,
Gopal


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.



From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 03:16:26 2000
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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
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Thanks Pat,

That is exactly my opinion. My first intuition was that it is not secure for
the mobile node to create its own challenge. It will open up for DoS attacks
against the radius server since the home agent will not reject any
registration request but will try to authenticate them all towards the
radius server.

We've been thinking about the solution where the home agent rejects the
first request.

If the mobile node try to register to the home agent without the challenge
extension. The home agent will return a registration reply with the error
code "missing challenge", and includes a challenge in the reply. The mobile
node will try to register again now including the received challenge. The
home agent MUST check that the received challenge is the same as the one
sent in the previous reply to this mobile node. When the home agent has
authenticated the mobile node, it sends a registration reply with a new
challenge that the mobile node MUST use in the next periodic registration.

If a registration reply gets lost on its way to the mobile node, the mobile
node will try again with the same challenge and now the home agent will
reject the request with the error code "stale challenge". And return a new
challenge in the reply, thus causing the mobile node to try again.

This requires some changes in how the home agent handles registration
request. First if the home agent is configured to authenticate its users
towards a radius server it has to return a new challenge in the reply. It
MUST also keep a copy of the last challenge sent to the mobile node so it
can compare it against the one recieved in the next registration reply. The
implementation of the co-located foreign agent has to inteprete the recieved
challenge as a new one instead of an old one as menitioned earlier in this
thread.

Open issues:
* how will the home agent know if it is a co-located foreign agent or an
regular foreign agent it is dealing with, i.e. how will it know when it
should return the old challenge to the foreign agent or a new challenge to
the co-located foreign agent?

Pros & Cons:
* Challenge response is available for a mobile node regisering as a
co-located foreign agent which will enable radius authentication.

* The first registration will need 2 RTT.

I'm not that familiar with the procedures when a draft becomes an RFC, but
if there is time, I believe something should be mentioned in the draft about
how it will work with a co-located foreign agent.

/Fredrik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@eng.sun.com]
> Sent: den 11 oktober 2000 17:02
> To: Fredrik Johansson
> Cc: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com; MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: RE: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
>
>
> Ahh... sorry. I thought your question was in regards to the challenge
> extension, and not the MN-AAA authentication extension.
>
> In any case, for the latter, it does require that the former be
> present, and
> the mobile can generate its own challenge (hmmmm.... quite insecure, isn't
> it). I am also tempted to say that the Home Agent should return
> an new error
> code with a challenge value, and force the Mobile Node to re-register.
>
> Unfortunately, the soon to be RFC doesn't discuss co-location.
>
> PatC
> > Hi Pat,
> >
> > It was not to provide replay protection but to enable the home agent to
> > authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP. In the radius
> > request a challenge and  a response is needed. Using the MN-HA
> > Authentication extension does not provide a challenge.
> >
> > Or is there another way of doing this?
> >
> > /Fredrik
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM]
> > > Sent: den 11 oktober 2000 16:40
> > > To: Fredrik Johansson
> > > Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, perhaps I am missing something here, but I really don't see
> > > the need for
> > > challenge/response support in a co-located MN. The challenge is
> > > useful to FAs
> > > to provide replay protection. Since MNs already have a replay
> protection
> > > scheme with the Home Agent, the challenge doesn't provide
> > > anything additional.
> > >
> > > PatC
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > the mobile node generates the challenge and send the
> request to the home
> > > > agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> > > > registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the
> > > co-located foreign
> > > > agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile
> > > client so it is
> > > > not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the
> > > registration reply
> > > > for use in the next registration?
> > > >
> > > > /Fredrik
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > > > > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of
> > > Woo-June Kim
> > > > > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > > > > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Fredrik,
> > > > >
> > > > > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > > > > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > > > > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > > > > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > > > > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > > > > that must be generated in some special manner.
> > > > >
> > > > > cheers
> > > > >
> > > > > >BlankHi
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is
> > > supposed to work
> > > > > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with
> > > a challenge
> > > > > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > > > > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > > > > Radius server to
> > > > > >authenticate the MN.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a
> > > solution in an
> > > > > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Regards
> > > > > >/Fredrik
> > > > > >-----------------------------------------
> > > > > >Fredrik Johansson
> > > > > >
> > > > > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > > > > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > > > > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > > > > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 03:55:36 2000
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From: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         Charlie Perkins <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
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Hi Charlie

That is true that the "Identification" field contains a challenge, but that
is from the mobile node towards the home agent. What we're looking for is
the oposite direction, from the home agent to the mobile node.

In order to authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP, a
challenge and a reponse is needed. Thus we need something like the MN-AAA
Authentication extension.

By doing the authentication with a Radius server, the mobile node will only
need to keep one shared secret between the mobile node and ANY home agent on
the home network, since when authenticated with the Radius server, the home
agent will retrieve the subscriber data for that mobile node. This will make
home agent discovery easier since a new home agent can be deployed on the
home network without having to configure the mobile node with yet another
shared key.

Regards
/Fredrik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charlie Perkins [mailto:charliep@iprg.nokia.com]
> Sent: den 12 oktober 2000 05:23
> To: Fredrik Johansson
> Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> The statement has been made that the Registration Request does
> not contain a challenge.  This isn't correct.  The "Identification" field
> of the Registration Request message serves exactly the function
> of a challenge, from the standpoint of the home agent.  I reckon it
> would be fairly easy to establish a security association between the
> mobile node and the home agent that would enable RADIUS to
> be used by the home agent, but there are details that would have
> to be worked out.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>
> Fredrik Johansson wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
> > agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> > registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the
> co-located foreign
> > agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile
> client so it is
> > not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the
> registration reply
> > for use in the next registration?
> >
> > /Fredrik
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of
> Woo-June Kim
> > > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > >
> > >
> > > Fredrik,
> > >
> > > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > > that must be generated in some special manner.
> > >
> > > cheers
> > >
> > > >BlankHi
> > > >
> > > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is
> supposed to work
> > > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > > >
> > > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with
> a challenge
> > > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > > Radius server to
> > > >authenticate the MN.
> > > >
> > > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a
> solution in an
> > > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > > >
> > > >Regards
> > > >/Fredrik
> > > >-----------------------------------------
> > > >Fredrik Johansson
> > > >
> > > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 06:42:31 2000
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From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-mobileip-rfc2344-bis-03.txt
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Reverse Tunneling for Mobile IP, revised
        Author(s)       : G. Montenegro
        Filename        : draft-ietf-mobileip-rfc2344-bis-03.txt
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        Date            : 11-Oct-00

Mobile IP uses tunneling from the home agent to the mobile
node's care-of address, but rarely in the reverse direction.
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foreign network, and assumes that routing is independent of
source address.  When this assumption is not true, it is
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from the care-of address to the home agent.
This document proposes backwards-compatible extensions to Mobile
IP to support topologically correct reverse tunnels.  This
document does not attempt to solve the problems posed by
firewalls located between the home agent and the mobile node's
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From: Alexandru Petrescu <petrescu@acm.org>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  SungJin Lee's message of "Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:37:12 +0900"

SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET> writes:
> Q.1     A MIPv6 node moved to foreign link. The MIPv6 node restarts
>         the system there and receives  router advertisements with
>         foreign network prefix.
>
>         How do the MIPv6 node detect if it is located in foreign link ?
>         isn't it could be normal autoconfiguration as in the home llink ?

Before moving save your home address somewhere; now land in a foreign
net, get a new address, compare it to the previously saved and thus
decide you're a foreigner.

>
> Q.2    A MIPv6 node located in it's home link. The node got an IP
>        address with stateless autoconfiguration. At a time the
>        router changed the home link prefix and multicast the router
>        advertisement with new prefix.  After the home link prefix
>        ifetime expired or before the life time expired, it received
>        router advertisement with new prefix.
>
>        Why doesn't the IPv6 node think it's located in foreign link
>        when it received ? isn't it possible the IPv6 node to think
>        it's moved to a foreign link and start MIPv6 process ?

I would relate this to "renumbering".  The draft-12 provides for
renumbering while MN is away and I think that your case might be
enunciated as a particular case of that.

Alex


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From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <FCEOICMNBENHKBADAGFBGEONCBAA.fredrik.johansson@ipunplugged.com>

> Hi Charlie
>
> That is true that the "Identification" field contains a challenge, but that
> is from the mobile node towards the home agent. What we're looking for is
> the oposite direction, from the home agent to the mobile node.
>
> In order to authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP, a
> challenge and a reponse is needed. Thus we need something like the MN-AAA
> Authentication extension.
>
> By doing the authentication with a Radius server, the mobile node will only
> need to keep one shared secret between the mobile node and ANY home agent on
> the home network, since when authenticated with the Radius server, the home
> agent will retrieve the subscriber data for that mobile node. This will make
> home agent discovery easier since a new home agent can be deployed on the
> home network without having to configure the mobile node with yet another
> shared key.
>
Just out of curiosity, is there really a demand to do home agent allocation
using RADIUS? I know of no such activity... Would it not instead make more
sense to make use of RADIUS?

If the Mobile Node has no SA with the HA, how will the MN-HA authentication
extension be computed/generated?

PatC

PatC


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From: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
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See comments below...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of
> pcalhoun@eng.sun.com
> Sent: den 12 oktober 2000 17:33
> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
>
>
> > Hi Charlie
> >
> > That is true that the "Identification" field contains a
> challenge, but that
> > is from the mobile node towards the home agent. What we're
> looking for is
> > the oposite direction, from the home agent to the mobile node.
> >
> > In order to authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP, a
> > challenge and a reponse is needed. Thus we need something like
> the MN-AAA
> > Authentication extension.
> >
> > By doing the authentication with a Radius server, the mobile
> node will only
> > need to keep one shared secret between the mobile node and ANY
> home agent on
> > the home network, since when authenticated with the Radius
> server, the home
> > agent will retrieve the subscriber data for that mobile node.
> This will make
> > home agent discovery easier since a new home agent can be
> deployed on the
> > home network without having to configure the mobile node with
> yet another
> > shared key.
> >
> Just out of curiosity, is there really a demand to do home agent
> allocation
> using RADIUS? I know of no such activity... Would it not instead make more
> sense to make use of RADIUS?

You're not using radius for home agent allocation, you use the regular home
agent discovery mechanism, but the choosen home agent will receive the MN-HA
key from the radius server. The mobile node will have the same secret will
all the home agents within its home network. But don't pay to much attention
to this, it was just an example where it can be used.

what I'm intrested in is to be able to authenticate the client using RADIUS,
i.e. there is a need for a challenge / response mechanism when using
co-located foreign agent as well as when using a regular foreign agent.

Rgds
/Fredrik
>
> If the Mobile Node has no SA with the HA, how will the MN-HA
> authentication
> extension be computed/generated?
>
> PatC
>
> PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 10:48:45 2000
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Reply-To: Madhavi Subbarao <msubbara@CISCO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Madhavi Subbarao <msubbara@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MOBILE-IP] WG Last Call
              -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <39E539CE.7285BF59@iprg.nokia.com>; from charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
              on Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 09:10:54PM -0700

Hi Charlie,

I'm also perplexed with the introduction of new message types.
Version 2 of your draft using extensions seemed like a more viable
approach.  Just curious...why wouldn't a MN be able to distinguish
between a regional registration and home registration by extensions
and flags?

Maybe your concrete examples will shed some light.

Thanks,
Madhavi

On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 09:10:54PM -0700, Charlie Perkins wrote:
> Hello Gopal,
>
> > 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional registration request/reply messages. I think
> > this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
>
> We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
> There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
> Appendix A.  We think that processing is very much more
> natural for the case when there are separate message types,
> instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
> making extensions to the existing messages would have
> the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
> into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
> messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
> draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
> foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
> levels of hierarchy.
>
> It's not a simple issue.
>
>
> >  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
> > registrations.
>
> That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home registration.
>
> > b) In fact your version 02 of the draft (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
>
> We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've alluded to already.
>
> > Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions. Using existing messages with extensions makes
> > implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
>
> On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the implementation
> easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not have to build
> up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have mentioned already,
> there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I think that the
> protocol needs to handle all cases as best it can do.
>
> > 2. What is the implementation of the current version of the Draft (not the previous versions)?
>
> We have an implementation.  I have heard of others, which of course I don't
> want to disclose without permission.  Maybe we should try for an interoperability
> test.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 11:24:07 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
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Fredrik Johansson wrote:
>
> Hi Charlie
>
> That is true that the "Identification" field contains a challenge, but that
> is from the mobile node towards the home agent. What we're looking for is
> the oposite direction, from the home agent to the mobile node.

This is done as follows:

When the home agent sends a Registration Reply to the mobile node,
that Registration Reply also has an Identification field.  That
field can have bits that the mobile node is required to return in
the Identification field of the next Registration Request.
Those bits would be the challenge you desire.

> In order to authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP, a
> challenge and a reponse is needed. Thus we need something like the MN-AAA
> Authentication extension.

You need MN-AAA authentication extension if you are asking AAA to
authorize the registration instead of the HA.  I don't think there
is any direct relationship between "challenge" and "MN-AAA".  If you
would like to arrange things so that the AAA supplies the bits to
be inserted into the Identification field of the Registration Reply,
I think that should work fine.  It doesn't have to be standardized
by the mobile-ip working group, but it might be a matter of interest
to the aaa-wg.

Regards,
Charlie P.


>
> By doing the authentication with a Radius server, the mobile node will only
> need to keep one shared secret between the mobile node and ANY home agent on
> the home network, since when authenticated with the Radius server, the home
> agent will retrieve the subscriber data for that mobile node. This will make
> home agent discovery easier since a new home agent can be deployed on the
> home network without having to configure the mobile node with yet another
> shared key.
>
> Regards
> /Fredrik
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Charlie Perkins [mailto:charliep@iprg.nokia.com]
> > Sent: den 12 oktober 2000 05:23
> > To: Fredrik Johansson
> > Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > The statement has been made that the Registration Request does
> > not contain a challenge.  This isn't correct.  The "Identification" field
> > of the Registration Request message serves exactly the function
> > of a challenge, from the standpoint of the home agent.  I reckon it
> > would be fairly easy to establish a security association between the
> > mobile node and the home agent that would enable RADIUS to
> > be used by the home agent, but there are details that would have
> > to be worked out.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Charlie P.
> >
> >
> > Fredrik Johansson wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > the mobile node generates the challenge and send the request to the home
> > > agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> > > registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the
> > co-located foreign
> > > agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile
> > client so it is
> > > not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the
> > registration reply
> > > for use in the next registration?
> > >
> > > /Fredrik
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > > > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of
> > Woo-June Kim
> > > > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > > > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Fredrik,
> > > >
> > > > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > > > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > > > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > > > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > > > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > > > that must be generated in some special manner.
> > > >
> > > > cheers
> > > >
> > > > >BlankHi
> > > > >
> > > > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is
> > supposed to work
> > > > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > > > >
> > > > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with
> > a challenge
> > > > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > > > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > > > Radius server to
> > > > >authenticate the MN.
> > > > >
> > > > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a
> > solution in an
> > > > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > > > >
> > > > >Regards
> > > > >/Fredrik
> > > > >-----------------------------------------
> > > > >Fredrik Johansson
> > > > >
> > > > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > > > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > > > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > > > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >


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>
>
> STEP 1 - Print the order form text below
>
> STEP 2 - Type or print your order information into the order form section
>
> STEP 3 - Mail order form and payment to the address below
>
>
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mail the portion below<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>     Send to:
>
>    Consumer Resources
>
>    PO BOX 283
>
>    Johnston, IA 50131
>
>
>     U.S.A
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mail-in Order Form <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>
>
>
> Name: ______________________________
>
>
> Address:  _____________________________
>
>
> City/State/Zip __________________________________________
>
>

>
>
>
>
>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end of form <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> DISCLAIMER: The seller of this powerful software resource will not be
> held responsible for how the purchaser chooses to use its resources.
>
>
>
>
> To be removed from our mailing list please
> send an email to m743@dcemail.com and put remove
> in the subject.
> Thank you


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 12 12:43:14 2000
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Date:         Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:38:55 -0700
Reply-To: charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
              Call-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Gopal Dommety <gdommety@cisco.com>
X-cc:         Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@ericsson.com>,
              Eva Gustafsson <Eva.Gustafsson@ericsson.com>
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Hello Gopal,

I regret to say that this is a bit more additional work than I can
schedule to do this week.  I'll try to make this effort next week or so.

Regards,
Charlie P.


Gopal Dommety wrote:
>
> Charlie,
>
> 1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out requiring new messages, it is
> possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
>
> 2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be where the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e, in one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there, in the regional case
> it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
>
> 3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new messages are given below:
>
>                 -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
>                             between regional registrations and home
>                             registrations, because when it uses
>                             regional registration, the nounces are not
>                             synchronized with its home agent;
>
>                          -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
>                             address either to request a GFA (in a home
>                             registration) or to signify the use of an
>                             unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
>                             regional registration).
>
> Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
>
> more comments below:
>
> >> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional registration request/reply messages. I think
> >> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
> >
> >We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
> >There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
> >Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
> >natural for the case when there are separate message types,
> >instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
> >making extensions to the existing messages would have
> >the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
> >into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
>
> Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
> an extension.
>
> >messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
> >draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
> >foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
> >levels of hierarchy.
>
> don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
>
> moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the home registration also.
>
> >>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
> >> registrations.
> >
> >That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home registration.
>
> It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the message and the extensions.
>
> >> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
> >
> >We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've alluded to already.
> >
> >> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions. Using existing messages with extensions makes
> >> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
> >
> >On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the implementation
> >easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not have to build
> >up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have mentioned already,
> >there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I think that the
>
> could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
>
> Regards,
> Gopal


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Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Unsubscribe
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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Header says all.

Regards,

-Sarvesh

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sarvesh Sharma
    Manager
    Dept: 2N22 - CDMA System Performance
    *  (972) 684-0654    *  ESN 444-0654
    * sarvesh@nortelnetworks.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Header says all.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Tahoma">Regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Tahoma">-Sarvesh</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<B></B></FONT><B></B><B> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#008080" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS">Sarvesh Sharma</FONT></B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B></B><B> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#808080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Tahoma">Manager</FONT></B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><B></B><B> =
<FONT COLOR=3D"#808080" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Tahoma">Dept: 2N22 - CDMA =
System Performance</FONT></B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#008080" SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Wingdings">(</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;</FONT><B></B><B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#808080" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Tahoma">(972) 684-0654</FONT></B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#008080" =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Wingdings">(</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;</FONT><B></B><B> <FONT COLOR=3D"#808080" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Tahoma">ESN 444-0654</FONT></B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Tahoma">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#008080" SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Wingdings">.</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma"><U></U></FONT><U><B></B></U><U><B> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Tahoma">sarvesh@nortelnetworks.com</FONT></B></U><B></B>
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From: Magda El Zarki <elzarki@uci.edu>
Organization: UC, Irvine
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Unsubscribe both my email addresses
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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please also unsbuscribe my other email address:
magda@ee.upenn.edu
thanks

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>please also unsbuscribe my other email=20
address:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:magda@ee.upenn.edu">magda@ee.upenn.edu</A></FONT></DIV>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 01:39:11 2000
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 02:34:22 2000
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Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Accept Credit Cards - Free Setup                     
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 07:35:46 2000
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Reply-To: gavin.button@panasonic-pmdc.co.uk
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Gavin Button <gavin.button@panasonic-pmdc.co.uk>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Mobile IP Routing Implementation Issue
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

I am researching and implementing MobileIP as defined in RFC2002, October
1996 and have a question.

My configuration within a private network is as follows:
Mobile Host: IP address 100.100.101.239
Home Agent: IP address 100.100.101.233
Foreign Agent: IP Address 10.0.0.2
(all subnet masks are 255.255.255.0)

The Mobile Host visits the Foreign Agent network and registers the Care of
Address (10.0.0.2) with the Home Agent. Once registration has completed I
ping the Mobile Host from a machine on its Home Network (100.100.100.207).
The ping request reaches the Mobile Host succesfully, at which point the
TCP/IP stack attempts a broadcast ARP Request to determine the MAC address
of 100.100.101.207, which it believes to be on the same network, this fails
so the ping reply is never generated.

The section in RFC 2002 on Mobile Host Datagram Routing (4.2.1) states that
a default router should be selected for the foreign network. If I do this
and set the deafult router to be 10.0.0.1 (router between the two networks)
then it still does generates an ARP request for 100.100.101.207. I believe
this is because the TCP/IP stack doesnt recognise the router, 10.0.0.1, as
being on the same network as its IP Address, 100.100.101.239, so does not
consider it for sending the ping reply to.

Can anyone explain what I might be doing wrong?

Thanks in Advance,

Gavin Button


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 08:25:36 2000
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Date:         Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:10:44 +0100
Reply-To: gavin.button@panasonic-pmdc.co.uk
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Gavin Button <gavin.button@panasonic-pmdc.co.uk>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Mobile IP Routing Implementation Issue
X-cc:         Bill Manning <bmanning@ISI.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <200010131159.EAA24913@zed.isi.edu>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

%
% Hi All,
%
% I am researching and implementing MobileIP as defined in RFC2002, October
% 1996 and have a question.
%
% My configuration within a private network is as follows:
% Mobile Host: IP address 100.100.101.239
% Home Agent: IP address 100.100.101.233
% Foreign Agent: IP Address 10.0.0.2
% (all subnet masks are 255.255.255.0)
%
% Can anyone explain what I might be doing wrong?
%
% Gavin Button

        First off, network 100.0.0.0/8 is -NOT- a private network
        number.

Ok, maybe the use of 'private network' was not quite correct. What I meant
is that is a local network I have setup up for testing purposes only, which
is not connected to the internet.

Gavin


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 08:32:51 2000
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Date:         Fri, 13 Oct 2000 21:19:03 +0900
Reply-To: SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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What is the difference between two advertisement below ?
      - Renumbered home link router advertisement
      - Router advertisement in a foreign link

My question is why the mobile node don't just add the new address 
in MN's address list. How do the MN decide whether it start MIPv6 
process or autoconfiguration process for renumbered home link address.
What if the all home addresses in the list have expired before the MN
get FA's router advertisement, can the MN still use the expired address record 
in it's system ? 

I also can't find RFC or draft which define exactly address list in a MIPv6 MN. A IPv6 node have a address list and  every prefix has lifetime. Please give me some advice on it. 
  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alexandru Petrescu" <petrescu@acm.org>
To: <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection


: SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET> writes:
: > Q.1     A MIPv6 node moved to foreign link. The MIPv6 node restarts
: >         the system there and receives  router advertisements with
: >         foreign network prefix.
: >
: >         How do the MIPv6 node detect if it is located in foreign link ?
: >         isn't it could be normal autoconfiguration as in the home llink ?
: 
: Before moving save your home address somewhere; now land in a foreign
: net, get a new address, compare it to the previously saved and thus
: decide you're a foreigner.
: 
: >
: > Q.2    A MIPv6 node located in it's home link. The node got an IP
: >        address with stateless autoconfiguration. At a time the
: >        router changed the home link prefix and multicast the router
: >        advertisement with new prefix.  After the home link prefix
: >        ifetime expired or before the life time expired, it received
: >        router advertisement with new prefix.
: >
: >        Why doesn't the IPv6 node think it's located in foreign link
: >        when it received ? isn't it possible the IPv6 node to think
: >        it's moved to a foreign link and start MIPv6 process ?
: 
: I would relate this to "renumbering".  The draft-12 provides for
: renumbering while MN is away and I think that your case might be
: enunciated as a particular case of that.
: 
: Alex
: 


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 09:45:12 2000
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Date:         Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:41:45 +1100
Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> What is the difference between two advertisement below ?
>       - Renumbered home link router advertisement
>       - Router advertisement in a foreign link
>
> My question is why the mobile node don't just add the new address
> in MN's address list. How do the MN decide whether it start MIPv6
> process or autoconfiguration process for renumbered home link address.
> What if the all home addresses in the list have expired before the MN
> get FA's router advertisement, can the MN still use the expired address
> record
> in it's system ?
>
        => I think you're certainly asking the right question but
        perhaps to the wrong mailing list :)
        If I understand you correctly, you're saying that while the
        MN is at Home, if a new advertisement is received with a new
        prefix, how does it know that this is not another foreign subnet.
        Well based on my rusty knowledge  of ND and stateless address
        configuration, it doesnt know. But I don't think that this is
strictly
        a MIP issue. While you're at home MIP does not do anything
        for  you. So that's why I'll cc IPng on this to see if someone can
        give you a better answer, or maybe I missed something here.
        BTW FA's do not exist in MIPv6.





> I also can't find RFC or draft which define exactly address list in a
> MIPv6 MN. A IPv6 node have a address list and  every prefix has lifetime.
> Please give me some advice on it.
>
>
>


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Date:         Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:48:35 +1100
Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Sorry forgot to cc IPng

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hesham Soliman (EPA) [SMTP:Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU]
> Sent: Saturday, 14 October 2000 12:42
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
>
> > What is the difference between two advertisement below ?
> >       - Renumbered home link router advertisement
> >       - Router advertisement in a foreign link
> >
> > My question is why the mobile node don't just add the new address
> > in MN's address list. How do the MN decide whether it start MIPv6
> > process or autoconfiguration process for renumbered home link address.
> > What if the all home addresses in the list have expired before the MN
> > get FA's router advertisement, can the MN still use the expired address
> > record
> > in it's system ?
> >
>         => I think you're certainly asking the right question but
>         perhaps to the wrong mailing list :)
>         If I understand you correctly, you're saying that while the
>         MN is at Home, if a new advertisement is received with a new
>         prefix, how does it know that this is not another foreign subnet.
>         Well based on my rusty knowledge  of ND and stateless address
>         configuration, it doesnt know. But I don't think that this is
> strictly
>         a MIP issue. While you're at home MIP does not do anything
>         for  you. So that's why I'll cc IPng on this to see if someone can
>         give you a better answer, or maybe I missed something here.
>         BTW FA's do not exist in MIPv6.
>
>
>
>
>
> > I also can't find RFC or draft which define exactly address list in a
> > MIPv6 MN. A IPv6 node have a address list and  every prefix has
> lifetime.
> > Please give me some advice on it.
> >
> >
> >


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From: Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySup
              port in
              IPv6"draft]
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Baker [SMTP:fred@CISCO.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 12:30 PM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
> "MobilitySup port  in IPv6"draft]
>
> >It seems that most people are supportive of limiting the filtering to the
> >edges of the network. This would help mobility immensely in that home
> >addresses could be used as the source address and remove a bunch of
> issues
> >with tunneling.
> Have you gotten any operators to say that? You haven't made much of a case
> until you have operational support.
>
        I have spoken with a few and most agree that it takes only one
dissenter to eliminate the possibility - looks like the use of the COA as
the source throughout the network is definitely needed.

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Fred Baker [SMTP:fred@CISCO.COM]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Wednesday, October 11, 2000 12:30 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: =
[MOBILE-IP] New version of &quot;MobilitySup port&nbsp; in =
IPv6&quot;draft]</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;It seems that most people are =
supportive of limiting the filtering to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;edges of the network. This would =
help mobility immensely in that home</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;addresses could be used as the =
source address and remove a bunch of issues</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;with tunneling.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Have you gotten any operators to say =
that? You haven't made much of a case</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">until you have operational =
support.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have spoken with a =
few and most agree that it takes only one dissenter to eliminate the =
possibility - looks like the use of the COA as the source throughout =
the network is definitely needed.</FONT> </P>
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From: "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <4B6BC00CD15FD2119E5F0008C7A419A50C613C6A@eaubrnt018.epa.ericsson.se>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Hesham Soliman (EPA) wrote:

> > What is the difference between two advertisement below ?
> >       - Renumbered home link router advertisement
> >       - Router advertisement in a foreign link
> >
> > My question is why the mobile node don't just add the new address
> > in MN's address list. How do the MN decide whether it start MIPv6
> > process or autoconfiguration process for renumbered home link address.
> > What if the all home addresses in the list have expired before the MN
> > get FA's router advertisement, can the MN still use the expired address
> > record
> > in it's system ?
> >
>         => I think you're certainly asking the right question but
>         perhaps to the wrong mailing list :)
>         If I understand you correctly, you're saying that while the
>         MN is at Home, if a new advertisement is received with a new
>         prefix, how does it know that this is not another foreign subnet.
>         Well based on my rusty knowledge  of ND and stateless address
>         configuration, it doesnt know. But I don't think that this is
> strictly
>         a MIP issue. While you're at home MIP does not do anything
>         for  you. So that's why I'll cc IPng on this to see if someone can
>         give you a better answer, or maybe I missed something here.
>         BTW FA's do not exist in MIPv6.
>

Reading through section 10.4 of the MIPv6 draft (version 12), I get the
impression that:

1. Movement detection is not a simple problem to solve.  The draft
doesn't really specifiy what method should be used.

2. Seeing an adverisement from a router with a different prefix is not a
good way to detect movement.  The preferred movement detection method
seems to be loss of reachability of the MN's default router, which is
noticed through neighbor unreachability detection and/or use of the
router advertisement interval option.

>
>
>
>
> > I also can't find RFC or draft which define exactly address list in a
> > MIPv6 MN. A IPv6 node have a address list and  every prefix has lifetime.
> > Please give me some advice on it.
> >
> >
> >
>

You may want to take a look at section 5.2 of RFC 2462, which mentions the
address list.  I hope this is helpful.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
John Leser                      UNH InterOperability Lab
IP/Routing Consortium Engineer  Morse Hall, 39 College Rd, Room 332
Tel: (603) 862-0090 (8-5 EST)   Durham, NH 03824-3525
Fax: (603) 862-1761             Web: www.iol.unh.edu
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 10:33:07 2000
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From: Fredrik Johansson <fredrik.johansson@IPUNPLUGGED.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
X-To:         charliep@iprg.nokia.com
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: charliep@iprg.nokia.com [mailto:charliep@iprg.nokia.com]
> Sent: den 12 oktober 2000 18:22
> To: Fredrik Johansson
> Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
>
>
> Fredrik Johansson wrote:
> >
> > Hi Charlie
> >
> > That is true that the "Identification" field contains a
> challenge, but that
> > is from the mobile node towards the home agent. What we're
> looking for is
> > the oposite direction, from the home agent to the mobile node.
>
> This is done as follows:
>
> When the home agent sends a Registration Reply to the mobile node,
> that Registration Reply also has an Identification field.  That
> field can have bits that the mobile node is required to return in
> the Identification field of the next Registration Request.
> Those bits would be the challenge you desire.

I don't agree, if you're using timestamps, the mobile node will set its time
in the low-order 32 bits and a random number in the high-order 32 bits. The
home agent will return the 64 bits as is if the request is within the
timeframe or it will return the low-order 32 bits from the request and its
own time in the high-order 32 bits if outside the timeframe. If rejected the
mobile node will adjust its time and send a new request with it new time in
the low-order 32 bits and a new random number in the high-order 32 bits.

If the home agent can act as follows, the challenge extension is not needed
when registered as co-located foreign agent:
1. When a challenge extension is present in the request, it will use it as
the challenge to use toghether with the MN-AAA authentication extension.
I.e. the registration is via a foreign agent.

2. If no challenge extension is present, the home agent will use the high
order 32 bits from the identification field as challenge toghether with the
MN-AAA authentication extension. Thus the mobile node will create its own
challenge.

The important thing is that both nodes know which field to use as a
challenge when trying to verify the authenticity of the user. The mobile
node is the only one that can know if it is registered as a co-located
foreign agent or not.
>
> > In order to authenticate the user towards a Radius server using CHAP, a
> > challenge and a reponse is needed. Thus we need something like
> the MN-AAA
> > Authentication extension.
>
> You need MN-AAA authentication extension if you are asking AAA to
> authorize the registration instead of the HA.  I don't think there
> is any direct relationship between "challenge" and "MN-AAA".  If you
> would like to arrange things so that the AAA supplies the bits to
> be inserted into the Identification field of the Registration Reply,
> I think that should work fine.  It doesn't have to be standardized
> by the mobile-ip working group, but it might be a matter of interest
> to the aaa-wg.

I don't know, I believe there is a relation since ? 6 in the
challenge/response draft states "If the mobile node does not include a
Mobile-Foreign Authentication [8] extension, then it MUST include the MN-AAA
Authentication extension whenever the Challenge extension is present,"

But that is no problem if the home agent treats the request according to the
suggestion above.

Regards
/Fredrik

>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>
> >
> > By doing the authentication with a Radius server, the mobile
> node will only
> > need to keep one shared secret between the mobile node and ANY
> home agent on
> > the home network, since when authenticated with the Radius
> server, the home
> > agent will retrieve the subscriber data for that mobile node.
> This will make
> > home agent discovery easier since a new home agent can be
> deployed on the
> > home network without having to configure the mobile node with
> yet another
> > shared key.
> >
> > Regards
> > /Fredrik
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Charlie Perkins [mailto:charliep@iprg.nokia.com]
> > > Sent: den 12 oktober 2000 05:23
> > > To: Fredrik Johansson
> > > Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > The statement has been made that the Registration Request does
> > > not contain a challenge.  This isn't correct.  The
> "Identification" field
> > > of the Registration Request message serves exactly the function
> > > of a challenge, from the standpoint of the home agent.  I reckon it
> > > would be fairly easy to establish a security association between the
> > > mobile node and the home agent that would enable RADIUS to
> > > be used by the home agent, but there are details that would have
> > > to be worked out.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Charlie P.
> > >
> > >
> > > Fredrik Johansson wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > the mobile node generates the challenge and send the
> request to the home
> > > > agent. The home agent will then include the same challenge in the
> > > > registration reply, is it up to the implementation of the
> > > co-located foreign
> > > > agent to remove the challenge before giving it to the mobile
> > > client so it is
> > > > not misstaken for a new challenge that can be sent in the
> > > registration reply
> > > > for use in the next registration?
> > > >
> > > > /Fredrik
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
> > > > > [mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of
> > > Woo-June Kim
> > > > > Sent: den 6 oktober 2000 17:28
> > > > > To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Challenge / Response with co-located FA
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Fredrik,
> > > > >
> > > > > The mobile node itself just generates a random number to use as
> > > > > the challenge. The response can only be correctly calculated by
> > > > > the mobile if it knows the correct key and algorithm. The AAA is
> > > > > simply using this fact to check the mobile's identity in a
> > > > > round-about manner. The challenge value itself is not something
> > > > > that must be generated in some special manner.
> > > > >
> > > > > cheers
> > > > >
> > > > > >BlankHi
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I have a question concerning how Challenge / Response is
> > > supposed to work
> > > > > >when a mobile node registers using a co-located foreign agent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Since the mobile node does not receive an advertisement with
> > > a challenge
> > > > > >from a FA it cannot calculate a response to be used in a MN-AAA
> > > > > >Authentication extension, i.e., the Home Agent cannot use a
> > > > > Radius server to
> > > > > >authenticate the MN.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Have there been any thoughts in this area, or perhaps a
> > > solution in an
> > > > > >earlier thread that I've missed? Thankful for any pointers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Regards
> > > > > >/Fredrik
> > > > > >-----------------------------------------
> > > > > >Fredrik Johansson
> > > > > >
> > > > > >W: +46 (0)8 725 5916
> > > > > >M: +46 (0)70 786 5035
> > > > > >mailto:Fredrik.Johansson@ipunplugged.com
> > > > > >http://www.ipunplugged.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >


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Reply-To: Alexandru Petrescu <petrescu@acm.org>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Alexandru Petrescu <petrescu@acm.org>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  SungJin Lee's message of "Fri, 13 Oct 2000 21:19:03 +0900"

SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET> writes:
> What is the difference between two advertisement below ?
>       - Renumbered home link router advertisement
>       - Router advertisement in a foreign link

I'm sharing your surprise there's no written differentiation.  It is
so striking that I imagine the authors have already thought of it and
left it as an exercise :-)

Let's say the MN wrongly considers the newly received RA as a
movement, when in fact it was renumbering at home.  It would first
configure a CoA and default route, then try a BU to his HA.  Now two
things can happen here: (1) either the HA is not yet renumbered, so it
will send a Binding Ack or (2) it has been renumbered and is no longer
reachable.  MN will use either the received Binding Ack (1) or HA
Discovery (2) to find out that the HA's prefix is the same as the
initial MN prefix (1) or as the CoA (2).  Surprise, you're at home, so
BU again, this time with zeroed lifetime to remove wrong cache entry.
Thus, renumbering took place and not visiting.

I think this would not work if home net and visited net both renumber
at the same time and take each other's prefixes.

Alex


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Vipul Gupta <Vipul.Gupta@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Mobile IP Routing Implementation Issue
X-To:         gavin.button@panasonic-pmdc.co.uk
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

  Gavin,

    When the mobile node is away from its home network, you need to
  remove the routing table entry for the home network (100.100.100.0).
  The only route entries you should have are:

    - an entry that says the FA (default router) is directly reachable
      from the MN's network interface
    - traffic for all hosts must be directed to the default router (FA).

  This way, the MN's IP forwarding code will not try to ARP for
  100.100.100.207. Instead, the packet will be sent to the FA.

  You don't mention what operating system you are using but at least
  Solaris and Linux allow routing tables to be set as above.

  vipul

> Hi All,
>
> I am researching and implementing MobileIP as defined in RFC2002, October
> 1996 and have a question.
>
> My configuration within a private network is as follows:
> Mobile Host: IP address 100.100.101.239
> Home Agent: IP address 100.100.101.233
> Foreign Agent: IP Address 10.0.0.2
> (all subnet masks are 255.255.255.0)
>
> The Mobile Host visits the Foreign Agent network and registers the Care of
> Address (10.0.0.2) with the Home Agent. Once registration has completed I
> ping the Mobile Host from a machine on its Home Network (100.100.100.207).
> The ping request reaches the Mobile Host succesfully, at which point the
> TCP/IP stack attempts a broadcast ARP Request to determine the MAC address
> of 100.100.101.207, which it believes to be on the same network, this fails
> so the ping reply is never generated.
>
> The section in RFC 2002 on Mobile Host Datagram Routing (4.2.1) states that
> a default router should be selected for the foreign network. If I do this
> and set the deafult router to be 10.0.0.1 (router between the two networks)
> then it still does generates an ARP request for 100.100.101.207. I believe
> this is because the TCP/IP stack doesnt recognise the router, 10.0.0.1, as
> being on the same network as its IP Address, 100.100.101.239, so does not
> consider it for sending the ping reply to.
>
> Can anyone explain what I might be doing wrong?
>
> Thanks in Advance,
>
> Gavin Button


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Reply-To: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <001101c033ec$f1e096a0$a2388680@kwangwoon.ac.kr>

I am not the most knowledgeable on the subject, and my betters may correct
me. But I would think this has to be answered in the exchange with the Home
Agent.

First, the Mobile Node has a number of limitations on its knowledge. It
doesn't know its own prefix beyond what it received in a router
advertisement, for example - if the router advertisement has changed
prefix, that may well mean that the device has changed subnet within its
home domain and should just use that address, or as you suggest, it may
mean that somebody is renumbering the network. Since it doesn't know the
site prefix, it cannot distinguish between the home domain (which is larger
than the prefix for a particular subnet) and a foreign domain.

It also has a responsibility. It must keep the Home Agent apprised both of
its own current address and its current care-of address. So if its address
changes, or if a new address is added to its list on some interface, it is
going to have to advise the Home Agent of that.

It is from the Home Agent's response that it will determine what's
happening. If the Home Agent expresses the opinion that it needs to use the
COA, it probably does, and if the Home Agent thinks its address is just fine...

Now, I haven't read the latest specifications to tell you how the Home
Agent expresses that. But I think it is in that context that the
information is going to have to be derived and communicated.


At 10:37 AM 10/12/00 +0900, SungJin Lee wrote:
>I got confisued while i was reading MIPv6 standards and
>have a couple of question with cases like following. The
>It is assumed that the MIPv6 node use stateless autoconfiguration.
>Let me know if I lost some in MIPv6 and IPv6 RFC.
>
>Q.1    A MIPv6 node moved to foreign link. The MIPv6 node restarts
>        the system there and receives  router advertisements with
>        foreign network prefix.
>
>        How do the MIPv6 node detect if it is located in foreign link?
>        isn't it could be normal autoconfiguration as in the home llink?
>
>Q.2    A MIPv6 node located in it's home link. The node got an IP address
>        with stateless autoconfiguration. At a time the router changed the
> home link
>        prefix and multicast the router advertisement with new prefix.
>        After the home link prefix ifetime expired or before the life time
>        expired, it received router advertisement with new prefix.
>
>        Why doesn't the IPv6 node think it's located in foreign link when it
>        received? isn't it possible the IPv6 node to think it's moved to a
> foreign
>        link and start MIPv6 process?


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 13 23:56:16 2000
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Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Fred
> I am not the most knowledgeable on the subject, and my betters may correct
> me. But I would think this has to be answered in the exchange with the
> Home
> Agent.
>
> First, the Mobile Node has a number of limitations on its knowledge. It
> doesn't know its own prefix beyond what it received in a router
> advertisement, for example - if the router advertisement has changed
> prefix, that may well mean that the device has changed subnet within its
> home domain and should just use that address, or as you suggest, it may
> mean that somebody is renumbering the network. Since it doesn't know the
> site prefix, it cannot distinguish between the home domain (which is
> larger
> than the prefix for a particular subnet) and a foreign domain.
>
> It also has a responsibility. It must keep the Home Agent apprised both of
> its own current address and its current care-of address. So if its address
> changes, or if a new address is added to its list on some interface, it is
> going to have to advise the Home Agent of that.
>
> It is from the Home Agent's response that it will determine what's
> happening. If the Home Agent expresses the opinion that it needs to use
> the
> COA, it probably does, and if the Home Agent thinks its address is just
> fine...
>
> Now, I haven't read the latest specifications to tell you how the Home
> Agent expresses that. But I think it is in that context that the
> information is going to have to be derived and communicated.
>
        => Well according to my memory there is no such expression
        from the HA. Of course if the MN receives the new router
        advertisement from the HA (router on the link), then it will
        know that the default router is still the same and that there is
        no need to move. But that is not a fault proof solution because
        the link-local address may be duplicated between links.

        Another way of looking at it is that the "new" Ruter advertisement
        should inform hosts that this subnet is "being renumbered".
        I think this is a clean option. I don't think this should be a MIP
        issue. MIPv6 solves the problem when the MN is away from
        home, which is when MIPv6 is espected to solve it.
        I would suggest that this is a ND-MIP interaction issue.

        Hesham

> At 10:37 AM 10/12/00 +0900, SungJin Lee wrote:
> >I got confisued while i was reading MIPv6 standards and
> >have a couple of question with cases like following. The
> >It is assumed that the MIPv6 node use stateless autoconfiguration.
> >Let me know if I lost some in MIPv6 and IPv6 RFC.
> >
> >Q.1    A MIPv6 node moved to foreign link. The MIPv6 node restarts
> >        the system there and receives  router advertisements with
> >        foreign network prefix.
> >
> >        How do the MIPv6 node detect if it is located in foreign link?
> >        isn't it could be normal autoconfiguration as in the home llink?
> >
> >Q.2    A MIPv6 node located in it's home link. The node got an IP address
> >        with stateless autoconfiguration. At a time the router changed
> the
> > home link
> >        prefix and multicast the router advertisement with new prefix.
> >        After the home link prefix ifetime expired or before the life
> time
> >        expired, it received router advertisement with new prefix.
> >
> >        Why doesn't the IPv6 node think it's located in foreign link when
> it
> >        received? isn't it possible the IPv6 node to think it's moved to
> a
> > foreign
> >        link and start MIPv6 process?


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sat Oct 14 04:43:02 2000
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Date:         Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:30:22 +0300
Reply-To: Lars Henrik Petander <lpetande@TML.HUT.FI>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Lars Henrik Petander <lpetande@TML.HUT.FI>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SGI.4.20.0010131004360.25300-100000@mars.iol.unh.edu>

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, John F. Leser wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Hesham Soliman (EPA) wrote:
>
>
> Reading through section 10.4 of the MIPv6 draft (version 12), I get the
> impression that:
>
> 1. Movement detection is not a simple problem to solve.  The draft
> doesn't really specifiy what method should be used.
>
> 2. Seeing an adverisement from a router with a different prefix is not a
> good way to detect movement.

That depends whether you are keeping a list of the known routers. If you
have a list of all known routers and you hear an advertisement from a new
router, which is not on the list, then you have probably moved.

This gives you the possibility of making a handoff before losing contact
with your current router. Of course the list needs to be purged of routers
that have been unreachable for some time. This scheme works well if the
user moves linearly, but requires router unreachability detection in other
cases.

> The preferred movement detection method
> seems to be loss of reachability of the MN's default router, which is
> noticed through neighbor unreachability detection and/or use of the
> router advertisement interval option.

Neighbour unreachbility detection is somewhat slow due to the default
timer values. Also frequent sending of RAs has some downsides, e.g., heavy
processing and bandwidth costs. Since the handoff takes place only after
losing the default router, some packets may be lost.

Based on my experiences developing the movement detection part of the MIPL
implementation, a combination of eager cell switching that is moderated by
the list of known routers combined with router unreachbility detection
based on the router interval option works well in most cases.

Henrik Petander

>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Leser                      UNH InterOperability Lab
> IP/Routing Consortium Engineer  Morse Hall, 39 College Rd, Room 332
> Tel: (603) 862-0090 (8-5 EST)   Durham, NH 03824-3525
> Fax: (603) 862-1761             Web: www.iol.unh.edu
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>


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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sun Oct 15 20:41:23 2000
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Date:         Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:28:44 -0700
Reply-To: Brian Zill <bzill@MICROSOFT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Brian Zill <bzill@MICROSOFT.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ericsson.com.au>,
              ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> > Another way of looking at it is that the "new"
> > Ruter advertisement should inform hosts that
> > this subnet is "being renumbered".  I think
> > this is a clean option. I don't think this
> > should be a MIP issue. MIPv6 solves the problem
> > when the MN is away from home, which is when
> > MIPv6 is espected to solve it. I would suggest
> > that this is a ND-MIP interaction issue.

I don't think this is a general enough solution.  In the common case, an
administrator would renumber by adding the new prefix and marking the old
prefix to time-out.  A mobile node that returns home during the time-out
delta could probably surmise that a renumbering was going on without needing
an extra bit in the router advertisement.  Yes, the extra bit could serve to
aid those mobile nodes that don't come home until after the old prefix has
expired, but how long does the router continue to advertise the "being
renumbered" bit?  At some point the administrator has to claim that the
"being renumbered" state has finished, confusing any mobile nodes that don't
return home until after that.  And if some administrators never get around
to turning the bit off, you'll have some networks in a state of perpetual
renumberment.

I think there's a better solution.  Have mobile nodes attempt to treat every
home agent they encounter as their home agent.  A mobile node should only be
able to successfully do so if the home agent actually is its home agent.
Note that there has to be some sort of security authorization between the
mobile node and the home agent or bad people visiting your link could steal
one of your addresses (such authorization is required for the mobile node to
securely update the home agent as to what its care-of-address is, so the
authorization capability must exist).  In other words, if you pass security,
you're at home (or one of your homes, at any rate).  Now the MIPv6 draft is
a little weak regarding how this authorization should be done, but I think
that's a problem for the mobile ip working group.

--Brian


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 00:03:27 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Brian Zill <bzill@microsoft.com>, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> > > Another way of looking at it is that the "new"
> > > Ruter advertisement should inform hosts that
> > > this subnet is "being renumbered".  I think
> > > this is a clean option. I don't think this
> > > should be a MIP issue. MIPv6 solves the problem
> > > when the MN is away from home, which is when
> > > MIPv6 is espected to solve it. I would suggest
> > > that this is a ND-MIP interaction issue.
>
> I don't think this is a general enough solution.  In the common case, an
> administrator would renumber by adding the new prefix and marking the old
> prefix to time-out.  A mobile node that returns home during the time-out
> delta could probably surmise that a renumbering was going on without
> needing
> an extra bit in the router advertisement.  Yes, the extra bit could serve
> to
> aid those mobile nodes that don't come home until after the old prefix has
> expired, but how long does the router continue to advertise the "being
> renumbered" bit?
>
        => You can do it for the same duration that you advertise dual
        prefixes for or more. There are no hard rules for how long that
should be
        and I think that's a good thing.
        I would argue that having a flag is better than simply just
advertising two
        prefixes at the same time. If you have a flag then at least you're
        encouraging the MN's (or just any IPv6 node) to use the new
        prefix in establishing its new connection. On the other hand,
        advertising two prefixes may not necessarily mean that you
        are renumbering. Even if one of them has a shorter lifetime.

> At some point the administrator has to claim that the
> "being renumbered" state has finished, confusing any mobile nodes that
> don't
> return home until after that.  And if some administrators never get around
> to turning the bit off, you'll have some networks in a state of perpetual
> renumberment.
>
        => Well, the way of turning the flag off can be automated and
        set when you  turn it on. I think that would depend on the
implementation.
        As to the confusion if the MN returns after the flag is turned off,
I think
        the confusion already exists, that's why we're having this
discussion.
        Adding the flag will make it possible to reduce the confusion by
        keeping it on for a bit longer. When I mentioned a "being
renumbered"
        flag I didn't mean that it MUST mean that. You could think of
        a flag that says "new prefix" and be included in the new prefix
option.
        It certainly should be interpreted in a way that doesn't confuse
hosts
        and make them think they're in a transient state.
        I'm not saying this is the best way, but it is certainly a stright
forward
        solution that seems quite simple.


> I think there's a better solution.  Have mobile nodes attempt to treat
> every
> home agent they encounter as their home agent.  A mobile node should only
> be
> able to successfully do so if the home agent actually is its home agent.
>
        => I'm not quite sure if I understand this correctly. The MN will
        have a fixed home address with a certain prefix. If it asumes
        that it has a new Home address every time it hears an RA with
        the H flag set (for HA), that's ok but that doesn't solve the
mobility
        problem for other Home addresses. It still needs to update
        the original "home" HA. The HA is only updated when the MN
        is in foreign subnet. What you're saing (if I understood it
correctly)
        means the MN will have a new Home Address every time
        it moves to a new subnet. Again that's fine but it doesn't help
        the fixed home address and all the connections using it.

> Note that there has to be some sort of security authorization between the
> mobile node and the home agent or bad people visiting your link could
> steal
> one of your addresses (such authorization is required for the mobile node
> to
> securely update the home agent as to what its care-of-address is, so the
> authorization capability must exist).  In other words, if you pass
> security,
> you're at home (or one of your homes, at any rate).
>
        => That authorisation only happens when you're in a foreign subnet.


> Now the MIPv6 draft is
> a little weak regarding how this authorization should be done, but I think
> that's a problem for the mobile ip working group.
>
        => I disagree here. MIPv6 BUs are secured using AH and that's
mandatory.
         How a security asociation is established is not a MIP problem. It
        can be manually configured or dynamically using IKE.

        Hesham


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 04:06:02 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Gavin Button <gavin.button@panasonic-pmdc.co.uk>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Mobile IP Routing Implementation Issue
X-cc:         Vipul Gupta <Vipul.Gupta@Eng.Sun.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <200010131702.KAA24049@nasnfs.eng.sun.com>
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Vipul,

        Thanks for your comments.

        I am developing under Windows 2000 and there doesn't seem to be any obvious
way of manipulating the router tables from the device driver level. I was
considering answering the ARP message myself with the address of the default
router.

        With regards to your comments about what the router tables should be set
to.

- In the network configuration I have set up, the FA is not actually the
default router for the network, does it have to be?
- Windows 2000 doesn't seem to allow you to set up routes which are
incorrect, i.e. Sending packets to a router with an IP Address that is not
on the same network.

Regards,

Gavin Button

-----Original Message-----
From: IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)
[mailto:MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM]On Behalf Of Vipul Gupta
Sent: 13 October 2000 18:02
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Mobile IP Routing Implementation Issue


  Gavin,

    When the mobile node is away from its home network, you need to
  remove the routing table entry for the home network (100.100.100.0).
  The only route entries you should have are:

    - an entry that says the FA (default router) is directly reachable
      from the MN's network interface
    - traffic for all hosts must be directed to the default router (FA).

  This way, the MN's IP forwarding code will not try to ARP for
  100.100.100.207. Instead, the packet will be sent to the FA.

  You don't mention what operating system you are using but at least
  Solaris and Linux allow routing tables to be set as above.

  vipul

> Hi All,
>
> I am researching and implementing MobileIP as defined in RFC2002, October
> 1996 and have a question.
>
> My configuration within a private network is as follows:
> Mobile Host: IP address 100.100.101.239
> Home Agent: IP address 100.100.101.233
> Foreign Agent: IP Address 10.0.0.2
> (all subnet masks are 255.255.255.0)
>
> The Mobile Host visits the Foreign Agent network and registers the Care of
> Address (10.0.0.2) with the Home Agent. Once registration has completed I
> ping the Mobile Host from a machine on its Home Network (100.100.100.207).
> The ping request reaches the Mobile Host succesfully, at which point the
> TCP/IP stack attempts a broadcast ARP Request to determine the MAC address
> of 100.100.101.207, which it believes to be on the same network, this
fails
> so the ping reply is never generated.
>
> The section in RFC 2002 on Mobile Host Datagram Routing (4.2.1) states
that
> a default router should be selected for the foreign network. If I do this
> and set the deafult router to be 10.0.0.1 (router between the two
networks)
> then it still does generates an ARP request for 100.100.101.207. I believe
> this is because the TCP/IP stack doesnt recognise the router, 10.0.0.1, as
> being on the same network as its IP Address, 100.100.101.239, so does not
> consider it for sending the ping reply to.
>
> Can anyone explain what I might be doing wrong?
>
> Thanks in Advance,
>
> Gavin Button


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 08:31:41 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         SungJin Lee <bluezy@CHOLLIAN.NET>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <001101c033ec$f1e096a0$a2388680@kwangwoon.ac.kr>

I came up with the answer to your question. It takes some work, but it's
there. Review draft-ietf-mobileip-ipv6-12.txt

One the router advertisements (sections 4.1, 5.6, 5.7, etc), the routers
tell you whether they are willing to be a home agent and/or a foreign
agent. If no neighboring system is willing to be your home agent but there
is a foreign agent, you are roaming. If there is someone willing to be a
home agent but you cannot authenticate with him, your previous home agent
remains your home agent, and you are roaming. If someone advertises that he
will be your home agent and you can authenticate with him, you are at home.

The one thing that bothered me as I read this was an implicit assumption,
perhaps on my part and perhaps on the author's part, that the device has to
somehow come in contact with its home agent as a neighboring device once in
a while. I can think of a number of scenarios in which this may not be true
- imagine a case where you have a telephone mailed to you on the road
because the old one broke. You certainly want to be able to tell the new
phone the old phone's information and have it stick. Or imagine a device
which is permanently roaming - it never actually is at home. You would want
to configure a home agent address somehow. I trust that in these cases the
protocol is not required.



At 09:37 AM 10/12/00 +0900, SungJin Lee wrote:
>I got confisued while i was reading MIPv6 standards and
>have a couple of question with cases like following. The
>It is assumed that the MIPv6 node use stateless autoconfiguration.
>Let me know if  i lost some in MIPv6 and IPv6 RFC.
>
>Q.1   A MIPv6 node moved to foreign link. The MIPv6 node restarts
>         the system there and receives  router advertisements with
>         foreign network prefix.
>
>         How do the MIPv6 node detect if it is located in foreign link ?
>         isn't it could be normal autoconfiguration as in the home llink ?
>
>Q.2   A MIPv6 node located in it's home link. The node got an IP address
>         with stateless autoconfiguration. At a time the router changed
> the home link
>         prefix and multicast the router advertisement with new prefix.
>         After the home link prefix ifetime expired or before the life time
>        expired, it received router advertisement with new prefix.
>
>        Why doesn't the IPv6 node think it's located in foreign link when it
>         received ? isn't it possible the IPv6 node to think it's moved to
> a foreign
>         link and start MIPv6 process ?
>
>


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Date:         Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:48:16 -0500
Reply-To: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] san diego
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi folks,

     it's time to start planning for the San Diego meeting.
Please send us your requests for slots in the Mobile IP
meeting.   Let us know the name of the presenter, the name of
the I-D, and the amount of time requested.

Thanks,
Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 11:13:51 2000
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Message-ID:  <Pine.SOL.4.10.10010161722570.682-100000@morphine.tml.hut.fi>
Date:         Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:01:03 +0300
Reply-To: Linfeng Yang <lyang@TML.HUT.FI>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Linfeng Yang <lyang@TML.HUT.FI>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <4B6BC00CD15FD2119E5F0008C7A419A50C613C7C@eaubrnt018.epa.ericsson.se>

When I read Section 12 RENUMBERING CONSIDERATION of RFC 2461 "Neighbor
Discovery for IPv6", I got a feeling, renumbering should not happen in a
sudden. A best practice would be: before new prefix being advertised, the
old one will be advertised with progress shorter Lifetime time and with
progress shorter interval. At the point old prefix being advertised with 0
Lifetime, new prefix will be advertised, after that point, old prefix will
continue be advertised with a Lifetime of 0 for some period of time.

So the MN should be well prepared for renumbering, and thus distinguish
renumbering with movement detection.

In any case MN should avoid unplugged for a period of time longer than its
HA expiration time as the same section of RFC suggested.

Linfeng


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 12:12:35 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] san diego
X-To:         Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@EMAIL.MOT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Mon, 16 Oct 2000 09:48:16 CDT. 
              <DFF2EFB82ADBD311B4BB00508B6F0C5C0176D12F@il27exm03.cig.mot.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

        it's time to start planning for the San Diego meeting.
   Please send us your requests for slots in the Mobile IP
   meeting.   Let us know the name of the presenter, the name of
   the I-D, and the amount of time requested.

=> if nobody better qualified would like to do it:
name: Francis Dupont
subject: Mobile IPv6 ETSI "bake-off" report (http://www.etsi.org/bake-off/)
request: as little as possible (proposal: 2 mn, 3 slides)

Thanks

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr

PS: as a new draft should be available before San Diego I can reveal (:-)
the main result: a successful registration (BU/BA exchange) protected by
IPsec between two very different implementations (ie. the core of the
current spec was validated).


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 12:55:21 2000
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Date:         Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:55:10 -0400
Reply-To: "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Brian Zill <bzill@MICROSOFT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <CB7153628BD3724096258CBFD70AA891041D9C@red-msg-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, Brian Zill wrote:

> > > Another way of looking at it is that the "new"
> > > Ruter advertisement should inform hosts that
> > > this subnet is "being renumbered".  I think
> > > this is a clean option. I don't think this
> > > should be a MIP issue. MIPv6 solves the problem
> > > when the MN is away from home, which is when
> > > MIPv6 is espected to solve it. I would suggest
> > > that this is a ND-MIP interaction issue.
>
> I don't think this is a general enough solution.  In the common case, an
> administrator would renumber by adding the new prefix and marking the old
> prefix to time-out.  A mobile node that returns home during the time-out
> delta could probably surmise that a renumbering was going on without needing
> an extra bit in the router advertisement.  Yes, the extra bit could serve to
> aid those mobile nodes that don't come home until after the old prefix has
> expired, but how long does the router continue to advertise the "being
> renumbered" bit?  At some point the administrator has to claim that the
> "being renumbered" state has finished, confusing any mobile nodes that don't
> return home until after that.  And if some administrators never get around
> to turning the bit off, you'll have some networks in a state of perpetual
> renumberment.
>
I agree here - if you're going to keep your network in a "being
renumbered" state, why not just continue to advertise the old prefix as
on-link, but with 0 valid lifetime.  This would make it clear to any node
returning to the home network that something has changed.  Also, given
just a renumbered bit set in the RA, how does a MN tell its renumbered
home network from a renumbered foreign network?

> I think there's a better solution.  Have mobile nodes attempt to treat every
> home agent they encounter as their home agent.  A mobile node should only be
> able to successfully do so if the home agent actually is its home agent.
> Note that there has to be some sort of security authorization between the
> mobile node and the home agent or bad people visiting your link could steal
> one of your addresses (such authorization is required for the mobile node to
> securely update the home agent as to what its care-of-address is, so the
> authorization capability must exist).  In other words, if you pass security,
> you're at home (or one of your homes, at any rate).  Now the MIPv6 draft is
> a little weak regarding how this authorization should be done, but I think
> that's a problem for the mobile ip working group.
>
> --Brian
>
This has me a bit confused - I thought the role of IPsec was just to
verify that the Binding Update's source could be authenticated as the true
owner of the home address, and that allowing the node to make a home
registration was based on 1. whether the HA considers the home address
on-link and 2. additional policy.

In a nutshell, I think some MN and HA could have security associations
satisfying all of the requirements for mobility, but this does not mean
that the HA is providing services for the MN's home network.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
John Leser                      UNH InterOperability Lab
IP/Routing Consortium Engineer  Morse Hall, 39 College Rd, Room 332
Tel: (603) 862-0090 (8-5 EST)   Durham, NH 03824-3525
Fax: (603) 862-1761             Web: www.iol.unh.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] New ID
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Please send me a new ID


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 13:18:28 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Robert Greene <BGGreene@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Adding to my just sent message.
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Please e mail me as to the cost for this new ID and I will arrange it
immediately.  Please advise


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From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Linfeng Yang <lyang@TML.HUT.FI>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.4.10.10010161722570.682-100000@morphine.tml.hut.f i>

The issues are a lot greater than that. If you want to read my initial
thoughts on a procedure (which are by no means done; this was put up for
review by the IPv6 Directorate ad will eventually be published as an ID)
you can glance at
ftp://ftpeng.cisco.com/fred/iesg/draft-baker-ipng-renumbering-00.html



At 06:01 PM 10/16/00 +0300, Linfeng Yang wrote:
>When I read Section 12 RENUMBERING CONSIDERATION of RFC 2461 "Neighbor
>Discovery for IPv6", I got a feeling, renumbering should not happen in a
>sudden. A best practice would be: before new prefix being advertised, the
>old one will be advertised with progress shorter Lifetime time and with
>progress shorter interval. At the point old prefix being advertised with 0
>Lifetime, new prefix will be advertised, after that point, old prefix will
>continue be advertised with a Lifetime of 0 for some period of time.
>
>So the MN should be well prepared for renumbering, and thus distinguish
>renumbering with movement detection.
>
>In any case MN should avoid unplugged for a period of time longer than its
>HA expiration time as the same section of RFC suggested.
>
>Linfeng


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 18:32:34 2000
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From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Brian Zill <bzill@MICROSOFT.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <CB7153628BD3724096258CBFD70AA891041D9C@red-msg-04.redmond.
              corp.microsoft.com>

At 05:28 PM 10/15/00 -0700, Brian Zill wrote:
>I think there's a better solution.  Have mobile nodes attempt to treat every
>home agent they encounter as their home agent.  A mobile node should only be
>able to successfully do so if the home agent actually is its home agent.

There is something to be said for that, apart from policy. I suspect there
is actually a mutual authorization thing going on - I may be willing to be
your home agent, but you may prefer another, and you may be willing for me
to be your home agent, but I think you don't pay your bills. Reality is
that we both have to be willing. We can't determine that unless we ask the
question.

So if we moderate the statement to "have mobile nodes attempt to treat
every home agent that they accept by policy as their home agent", then the
intersection will be determined by the home agent.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 23:35:55 2000
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Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> > > > Another way of looking at it is that the "new"
> > > > Ruter advertisement should inform hosts that
> > > > this subnet is "being renumbered".  I think
> > > > this is a clean option. I don't think this
> > > > should be a MIP issue. MIPv6 solves the problem
> > > > when the MN is away from home, which is when
> > > > MIPv6 is espected to solve it. I would suggest
> > > > that this is a ND-MIP interaction issue.
> >
> > I don't think this is a general enough solution.  In the common case, an
> > administrator would renumber by adding the new prefix and marking the
> old
> > prefix to time-out.  A mobile node that returns home during the time-out
> > delta could probably surmise that a renumbering was going on without
> needing
> > an extra bit in the router advertisement.  Yes, the extra bit could
> serve to
> > aid those mobile nodes that don't come home until after the old prefix
> has
> > expired, but how long does the router continue to advertise the "being
> > renumbered" bit?  At some point the administrator has to claim that the
> > "being renumbered" state has finished, confusing any mobile nodes that
> don't
> > return home until after that.  And if some administrators never get
> around
> > to turning the bit off, you'll have some networks in a state of
> perpetual
> > renumberment.
> >
> I agree here - if you're going to keep your network in a "being
> renumbered" state, why not just continue to advertise the old prefix as
> on-link, but with 0 valid lifetime.  This would make it clear to any node
> returning to the home network that something has changed.  Also, given
> just a renumbered bit set in the RA, how does a MN tell its renumbered
> home network from a renumbered foreign network?
>
        =>

> > I think there's a better solution.  Have mobile nodes attempt to treat
> every
> > home agent they encounter as their home agent.  A mobile node should
> only be
> > able to successfully do so if the home agent actually is its home agent.
> > Note that there has to be some sort of security authorization between
> the
> > mobile node and the home agent or bad people visiting your link could
> steal
> > one of your addresses (such authorization is required for the mobile
> node to
> > securely update the home agent as to what its care-of-address is, so the
> > authorization capability must exist).  In other words, if you pass
> security,
> > you're at home (or one of your homes, at any rate).  Now the MIPv6 draft
> is
> > a little weak regarding how this authorization should be done, but I
> think
> > that's a problem for the mobile ip working group.
> >
> > --Brian
> >
> This has me a bit confused - I thought the role of IPsec was just to
> verify that the Binding Update's source could be authenticated as the true
> owner of the home address, and that allowing the node to make a home
> registration was based on 1. whether the HA considers the home address
> on-link and 2. additional policy.
>
> In a nutshell, I think some MN and HA could have security associations
> satisfying all of the requirements for mobility, but this does not mean
> that the HA is providing services for the MN's home network.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Leser                      UNH InterOperability Lab
> IP/Routing Consortium Engineer  Morse Hall, 39 College Rd, Room 332
> Tel: (603) 862-0090 (8-5 EST)   Durham, NH 03824-3525
> Fax: (603) 862-1761             Web: www.iol.unh.edu
> -------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 16 23:45:15 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Sorry about the last mail, a bit eager on the
send button :)


> > > > Another way of looking at it is that the "new"
> > > > Ruter advertisement should inform hosts that
> > > > this subnet is "being renumbered".  I think
> > > > this is a clean option. I don't think this
> > > > should be a MIP issue. MIPv6 solves the problem
> > > > when the MN is away from home, which is when
> > > > MIPv6 is espected to solve it. I would suggest
> > > > that this is a ND-MIP interaction issue.
> >
> > I don't think this is a general enough solution.  In the common case, an
> > administrator would renumber by adding the new prefix and marking the
> old
> > prefix to time-out.  A mobile node that returns home during the time-out
> > delta could probably surmise that a renumbering was going on without
> needing
> > an extra bit in the router advertisement.  Yes, the extra bit could
> serve to
> > aid those mobile nodes that don't come home until after the old prefix
> has
> > expired, but how long does the router continue to advertise the "being
> > renumbered" bit?  At some point the administrator has to claim that the
> > "being renumbered" state has finished, confusing any mobile nodes that
> don't
> > return home until after that.  And if some administrators never get
> around
> > to turning the bit off, you'll have some networks in a state of
> perpetual
> > renumberment.
> >
> I agree here - if you're going to keep your network in a "being
> renumbered" state, why not just continue to advertise the old prefix as
> on-link, but with 0 valid lifetime.  This would make it clear to any node
> returning to the home network that something has changed.  Also, given
> just a renumbered bit set in the RA, how does a MN tell its renumbered
> home network from a renumbered foreign network?
>
        => That's fine with me too. As long as there is some
        indication that the network has been renumbered and
        as long as it is done outside MIPv6 ;)
        I don't think it's a MIPv6 problem if it is done while
        you're at home.


> > I think there's a better solution.  Have mobile nodes attempt to treat
> every
> > home agent they encounter as their home agent.  A mobile node should
> only be
> > able to successfully do so if the home agent actually is its home agent.
> > Note that there has to be some sort of security authorization between
> the
> > mobile node and the home agent or bad people visiting your link could
> steal
> > one of your addresses (such authorization is required for the mobile
> node to
> > securely update the home agent as to what its care-of-address is, so the
> > authorization capability must exist).  In other words, if you pass
> security,
> > you're at home (or one of your homes, at any rate).  Now the MIPv6 draft
> is
> > a little weak regarding how this authorization should be done, but I
> think
> > that's a problem for the mobile ip working group.
> >
> > --Brian
> >
> This has me a bit confused - I thought the role of IPsec was just to
> verify that the Binding Update's source could be authenticated as the true
> owner of the home address, and that allowing the node to make a home
> registration was based on 1. whether the HA considers the home address
> on-link and 2. additional policy.
>
> In a nutshell, I think some MN and HA could have security associations
> satisfying all of the requirements for mobility, but this does not mean
> that the HA is providing services for the MN's home network.
>
        => The security required for MIPv6 signalling is
        already there in the draft.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 04:05:00 2000
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Reply-To: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Michael Thomas <mat@cisco.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <14827.9724.920401.80705@thomasm-u1.cisco.com>

I got this privately, and Michael is willing to take this discussion public.

At 08:59 AM 10/16/00 -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
>My general feeling is that for most wireless devices there is no reason
>why the mobile would _ever_ be directly attached to its home subnet
>router. The reason is pretty straightforward: I want my HA to be a fast
>router on housed on a fast network. I definitely do _not_ want it housed
>on my true home network because then I'd have to deal with triangular
>routing through krufty and slow cable/dsl, not to mention not wanting to
>book qos through a last mile technology. The casual security problem will
>still be as much a problem in wireless as it is today. Namely, it will be
>the exception, not the rule.

There are a couple of points to consider here. One is that I tend to think
a lot of the discussion in Mobile IP is oriented around radio networks, and
it's not in the least obvious to me that radio networks are the only use of
it. I'm looking at it for quite another use that could use radios as the
last mile, but requires no radios at all, and runs on a pretty large scale.
So there is a trap we could fall into here that is somewhat worrisome.

Another is largely as Michael says - we want the Home Agent to be somewhere
with enough capacity for huge numbers of things to use it. The "optimized"
routing helps MIP scale quite a bit, which is an important commercial step.
Making the home agents be in routers off in crufty corners of our corporate
attics (the non-radio case) defeats a lot of that. In such cases, we will
want something more central.

I looked through the Hierarchical Mobility draft, and it seems to have the
right mix of things - although I have to say it is more a marketing
statement about the technology ("it is wonderful and Ericcson is applying
for a patent") than a statement about how to do it beyond the need for
another bit; we need quite a bit on the routing aspects of the technology.
But I think there is a simpler approach that scales more nicely.

In DHCP, there is an assumption that there is a DHCP listener on every LAN.
That isn't even close to reality, so in routers there is often a feature
called a DHCP Helper; it receives the DHCP message and forwards it to an
appropriate DHCP server. I submit that having a Home Agent Helper - a
process which picks up messages sent to the home agent anycast address and
tunnels them to somewhere more central - gives you the right mix of scaling
properties and the ability to site home agents appropriately.

Similarly, if a mobile access helper anycast address existed, the local
router could either be that system, or could tunnel messages to it. If
could advise the mobile device of its presence and willingness to act as a
care-of address; the mobile node would give this mobile access point a more
local care-of address, and said MAP would forward messages directed to it
to that more local COA. The only concern I have with putting the COA
directly on the mobile device is the need for someone to forward them
during handoffs, and this would allow for that. It seems like this "helper"
model is not dissimilar to the Hierarchical Mobility model, but simpler.

I can write up a draft if someone is interested to explore that.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 05:39:19 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> I came up with the answer to your question. It takes some work, but it's
> there. Review draft-ietf-mobileip-ipv6-12.txt
>
> One the router advertisements (sections 4.1, 5.6, 5.7, etc), the routers
> tell you whether they are willing to be a home agent and/or a foreign
> agent. If no neighboring system is willing to be your home agent but there
>
> is a foreign agent, you are roaming. If there is someone willing to be a
> home agent but you cannot authenticate with him, your previous home agent
> remains your home agent, and you are roaming. If someone advertises that
> he
> will be your home agent and you can authenticate with him, you are at
> home.
>
        => I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by the foreign agent.
        Perhaps you have another entity in mind ? Because the current MIPv6
        draft does not have foreign agents.

> The one thing that bothered me as I read this was an implicit assumption,
> perhaps on my part and perhaps on the author's part, that the device has
> to
> somehow come in contact with its home agent as a neighboring device once
> in
> a while. I can think of a number of scenarios in which this may not be
> true
> - imagine a case where you have a telephone mailed to you on the road
> because the old one broke. You certainly want to be able to tell the new
> phone the old phone's information and have it stick. Or imagine a device
> which is permanently roaming - it never actually is at home. You would
> want
> to configure a home agent address somehow. I trust that in these cases the
>
> protocol is not required.
>
        => You never need to configure a Home Agent address. The
        current draft specifies a Dynamic Home Agent Discovery mechanism.
        All you need to configure is a Home Address.
        I believe MIPv6 can support the scenario you mentioned provided
        the MN knows its Home Address. Which is a reasonable assumption
        IMO.


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        Title           : AAA Interface for IPv6 Handoff
        Author(s)       : M. Khalil, H. Akhtar, K. Pillai, E. Qaddoura
        Filename        : draft-mkhalil-mobileip-ipv6-handoff-00.txt
        Pages           : 16
        Date            : 16-Oct-00

This draft outlines a protocol to achieve minimal disruption during
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(Mobile Node) when moving between access networks that may belong to
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Reply-To: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
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From: "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hello Fred

> There are a couple of points to consider here. One is that I
> tend to think
> a lot of the discussion in Mobile IP is oriented around radio
> networks, and
> it's not in the least obvious to me that radio networks are
> the only use of
> it. I'm looking at it for quite another use that could use
> radios as the
> last mile, but requires no radios at all, and runs on a
> pretty large scale.
> So there is a trap we could fall into here that is somewhat worrisome.

I understand your point but there is no assumption in the
discussions as to where the radio network lies (if any) with
respect to mobility agents. On the other hand it is also clear
that radio is very important for mobility so it is good that we
take it into consideration and discuss it.

> Another is largely as Michael says - we want the Home Agent
> to be somewhere
> with enough capacity for huge numbers of things to use it.
> The "optimized"
> routing helps MIP scale quite a bit, which is an important
> commercial step.
> Making the home agents be in routers off in crufty corners of
> our corporate
> attics (the non-radio case) defeats a lot of that. In such
> cases, we will
> want something more central.

Are you still referring to MIPv6? Correct me if I'm misunderstanding,
but if you do use Route Optimisation the location of the HA is
not so important.


> I looked through the Hierarchical Mobility draft, and it
> seems to have the
> right mix of things - although I have to say it is more a marketing
> statement about the technology ("it is wonderful and Ericcson
> is applying
> for a patent") than a statement about how to do it beyond the need for
> another bit; we need quite a bit on the routing aspects of
> the technology.
> But I think there is a simpler approach that scales more nicely.

I guess you are referring to draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00?
I think it has nothing to do with a marketing draft so I wonder what
you are referring to specifically. It is authored by people employed
by Ericsson and INRIA who have already an implementation. Since, as
I seem to understand, we are not here representing or advertising
companies I also don't think your statement on Ericsson is relevant.
But I do agree with the "it is wonderful" bit!


> Similarly, if a mobile access helper anycast address existed,
> the local
> router could either be that system, or could tunnel messages to it. If
> could advise the mobile device of its presence and
> willingness to act as a
> care-of address; the mobile node would give this mobile
> access point a more
> local care-of address, and said MAP would forward messages
> directed to it
> to that more local COA. The only concern I have with putting the COA
> directly on the mobile device is the need for someone to forward them
> during handoffs, and this would allow for that. It seems like
> this "helper"
> model is not dissimilar to the Hierarchical Mobility model,
> but simpler.


It sounds very similar to the current HMIPv6 proposal.
The same effect can be achieved by the existing draft.
I'm not quite sure I understand why it is simpler to use 2 CoAs
(one local for the MAP and one for the HA and CNs), anyhow
you can do that in the existing proposal.

The use of anycast addressing was considered for MAP discovery
when we wrote the draft. The nice thing with router advertisements
is that you can have the option of more than one MAP to choose
from based on their distance and their current loading.
This information is encoded in the MAP option. I don't believe
you can achieve that using anycast. Plus with subnet anycast you
need to know the prefix of the link that the MAP is located on.

Regarding the handoff issue, there is another draft that was
included in the original proposal but is now part of the handoffs
work (draft-elmalki-handoffsv6-00). There are other drafts also
being discussed.

I hope this addresses your concerns.

Regards
/Karim


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From: Haseeb Akhtar <haseeb@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Fred,

I would agree with you on the objective and portions of the solution. At
least, the part about having an Anycast address for HA discovery. This would
specially be useful for the IPv6 model where there is no FA.

Haseeb

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Baker [SMTP:fred@CISCO.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:01 PM
> To:   MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
>
> I got this privately, and Michael is willing to take this discussion
> public.
>
> At 08:59 AM 10/16/00 -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
> >My general feeling is that for most wireless devices there is no reason
> >why the mobile would _ever_ be directly attached to its home subnet
> >router. The reason is pretty straightforward: I want my HA to be a fast
> >router on housed on a fast network. I definitely do _not_ want it housed
> >on my true home network because then I'd have to deal with triangular
> >routing through krufty and slow cable/dsl, not to mention not wanting to
> >book qos through a last mile technology. The casual security problem will
> >still be as much a problem in wireless as it is today. Namely, it will be
> >the exception, not the rule.
>
> There are a couple of points to consider here. One is that I tend to think
> a lot of the discussion in Mobile IP is oriented around radio networks,
> and
> it's not in the least obvious to me that radio networks are the only use
> of
> it. I'm looking at it for quite another use that could use radios as the
> last mile, but requires no radios at all, and runs on a pretty large
> scale.
> So there is a trap we could fall into here that is somewhat worrisome.
>
> Another is largely as Michael says - we want the Home Agent to be
> somewhere
> with enough capacity for huge numbers of things to use it. The "optimized"
> routing helps MIP scale quite a bit, which is an important commercial
> step.
> Making the home agents be in routers off in crufty corners of our
> corporate
> attics (the non-radio case) defeats a lot of that. In such cases, we will
> want something more central.
>
> I looked through the Hierarchical Mobility draft, and it seems to have the
> right mix of things - although I have to say it is more a marketing
> statement about the technology ("it is wonderful and Ericcson is applying
> for a patent") than a statement about how to do it beyond the need for
> another bit; we need quite a bit on the routing aspects of the technology.
> But I think there is a simpler approach that scales more nicely.
>
> In DHCP, there is an assumption that there is a DHCP listener on every
> LAN.
> That isn't even close to reality, so in routers there is often a feature
> called a DHCP Helper; it receives the DHCP message and forwards it to an
> appropriate DHCP server. I submit that having a Home Agent Helper - a
> process which picks up messages sent to the home agent anycast address and
> tunnels them to somewhere more central - gives you the right mix of
> scaling
> properties and the ability to site home agents appropriately.
>
> Similarly, if a mobile access helper anycast address existed, the local
> router could either be that system, or could tunnel messages to it. If
> could advise the mobile device of its presence and willingness to act as a
> care-of address; the mobile node would give this mobile access point a
> more
> local care-of address, and said MAP would forward messages directed to it
> to that more local COA. The only concern I have with putting the COA
> directly on the mobile device is the need for someone to forward them
> during handoffs, and this would allow for that. It seems like this
> "helper"
> model is not dissimilar to the Hierarchical Mobility model, but simpler.
>
> I can write up a draft if someone is interested to explore that.

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<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Fred,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would agree with =
you on the objective and portions of the solution. At least, the part =
about having an Anycast address for HA discovery. This would specially =
be useful for the IPv6 model where there is no FA. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Haseeb</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Fred Baker [SMTP:fred@CISCO.COM]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, October 17, 2000 7:01 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location =
detection</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I got this privately, and Michael is =
willing to take this discussion public.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">At 08:59 AM 10/16/00 -0700, Michael =
Thomas wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;My general feeling is that for =
most wireless devices there is no reason</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;why the mobile would _ever_ be =
directly attached to its home subnet</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;router. The reason is pretty =
straightforward: I want my HA to be a fast</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;router on housed on a fast =
network. I definitely do _not_ want it housed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;on my true home network because =
then I'd have to deal with triangular</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;routing through krufty and slow =
cable/dsl, not to mention not wanting to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;book qos through a last mile =
technology. The casual security problem will</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;still be as much a problem in =
wireless as it is today. Namely, it will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;the exception, not the =
rule.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">There are a couple of points to =
consider here. One is that I tend to think</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">a lot of the discussion in Mobile IP =
is oriented around radio networks, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">it's not in the least obvious to me =
that radio networks are the only use of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">it. I'm looking at it for quite =
another use that could use radios as the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">last mile, but requires no radios at =
all, and runs on a pretty large scale.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">So there is a trap we could fall into =
here that is somewhat worrisome.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Another is largely as Michael says - =
we want the Home Agent to be somewhere</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">with enough capacity for huge numbers =
of things to use it. The &quot;optimized&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">routing helps MIP scale quite a bit, =
which is an important commercial step.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Making the home agents be in routers =
off in crufty corners of our corporate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">attics (the non-radio case) defeats a =
lot of that. In such cases, we will</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">want something more central.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I looked through the Hierarchical =
Mobility draft, and it seems to have the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">right mix of things - although I have =
to say it is more a marketing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">statement about the technology =
(&quot;it is wonderful and Ericcson is applying</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">for a patent&quot;) than a statement =
about how to do it beyond the need for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">another bit; we need quite a bit on =
the routing aspects of the technology.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">But I think there is a simpler =
approach that scales more nicely.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In DHCP, there is an assumption that =
there is a DHCP listener on every LAN.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">That isn't even close to reality, so =
in routers there is often a feature</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">called a DHCP Helper; it receives the =
DHCP message and forwards it to an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">appropriate DHCP server. I submit =
that having a Home Agent Helper - a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">process which picks up messages sent =
to the home agent anycast address and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">tunnels them to somewhere more =
central - gives you the right mix of scaling</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">properties and the ability to site =
home agents appropriately.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Similarly, if a mobile access helper =
anycast address existed, the local</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">router could either be that system, =
or could tunnel messages to it. If</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">could advise the mobile device of its =
presence and willingness to act as a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">care-of address; the mobile node =
would give this mobile access point a more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">local care-of address, and said MAP =
would forward messages directed to it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to that more local COA. The only =
concern I have with putting the COA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">directly on the mobile device is the =
need for someone to forward them</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">during handoffs, and this would allow =
for that. It seems like this &quot;helper&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">model is not dissimilar to the =
Hierarchical Mobility model, but simpler.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I can write up a draft if someone is =
interested to explore that.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C03837.39288F10--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 10:13:58 2000
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Date:         Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:15:29 +0200
Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:14:26 EDT. 
              <Pine.SGI.4.20.0010131004360.25300-100000@mars.iol.unh.edu>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   Reading through section 10.4 of the MIPv6 draft (version 12), I get the
   impression that:

   1. Movement detection is not a simple problem to solve.  The draft
   doesn't really specifiy what method should be used.

=> there are many different methods, some of them are (too) slow,
some of them can detect movements when there is no movement, this can
be a problem or not... I think we need to get results from fast/smart/...
handoff special group and from implemention experiences.

   2. Seeing an adverisement from a router with a different prefix is not a
   good way to detect movement.

=> I agree but the other way is not better.

   The preferred movement detection method seems to be loss of
   reachability of the MN's default router,

=> this is not good if there are more than one router and of course
is very bad if the number of potential default routers is large enough...

   which is noticed through neighbor unreachability detection

=> which uses neighbor solicitations, not router solicitations !

   and/or use of the router advertisement interval option.

=> this point should be added into neighbor discovery specs (ie.
it is useful in general, not only for mobility).

   > > I also can't find RFC or draft which define exactly address list in a
   > > MIPv6 MN. A IPv6 node have a address list and  every prefix has lifetime

=> in *theory* the list is the union of local prefixes and home prefixes,
both are in router advertisements on the local link and through the tunnel
with the home agent with the according lifetimes. In order to get the whole
list ASAP someone suggested in this list that the home agent sends router
advertisements to the MN when a home registration is done.

The issue is what happens if the home link is renumbered when the MN is
stopped. In fact this depends on how the MN knows its home prefix(es):
 - very stupid implementations believe the MN is started at home then
   the home prefixes will be prefixes of the first attached link: no
   problem with renumbering.
 - stupid implementations use a static config in order to know home
   prefixes then if the config is too old the MN will not be able to
   find its home link (and a home agent).
 - someone suggested in the list to use a name which can be updated
   when the home prefix is renumbered (but not renamed :-). It is a
   fine idea out of the scope of the mobile IPv6 draft.
I think most implementations use the second way (static config)...

An open question is what to do with DHCPv6?

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


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Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Alexandru Petrescu <petrescu@acm.org>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:42:37 +0200. 
              <t4vguwzr0y.fsf@crm.mot.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   I think this would not work if home net and visited net both renumber
   at the same time and take each other's prefixes.

=> this is explicitely forbidden because many things (not only mobility)
will break if two prefixes are quickly swapped...

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr

PS: prefixes are not ephemeral, default lifetimes are in days and
renumbering "hold down" in months.


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Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Lars Henrik Petander <lpetande@TML.HUT.FI>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:30:22 +0300. 
              <Pine.SOL.4.10.10010141102050.28034-100000@morphine.tml.hut.fi>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   Based on my experiences developing the movement detection part of the MIPL
   implementation, a combination of eager cell switching that is moderated by
   the list of known routers combined with router unreachbility detection
   based on the router interval option works well in most cases.

=> this works well in an environment where mobility is some kind of
cellular thing. There are other types of movements, some of them
very easy to detect like physical interface (ex)changes. Someone
proposed the final solution: use PPP and bring it down and up
during movements (not more silly then anything is cellular :-).

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 10:36:09 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Brian Zill <bzill@microsoft.com>
X-cc:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ericsson.com.au>,
              ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:28:44 PDT. 
              <CB7153628BD3724096258CBFD70AA891041D9C@red-msg-04.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   Now the MIPv6 draft is a little weak regarding how this
   authorization should be done, but I think that's a problem for the
   mobile ip working group.

=> I disagree, MIPv6 mandates IPsec (AH in tunnel mode for authentication,
integrity and replay protection). Perhaps there is a conflict between
PPP authentication, DHCPv6, AAA and IPsec but this is not from a lack
of protocols/tools (:-)...

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:55:10 EDT. 
              <Pine.SGI.4.20.0010161228210.25300-100000@mars.iol.unh.edu>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   I agree here - if you're going to keep your network in a "being
   renumbered" state, why not just continue to advertise the old prefix as
   on-link, but with 0 valid lifetime.  This would make it clear to any node
   returning to the home network that something has changed.

=> this is not only useful for mobile node... I think this will be with
at least a SHOULD in the "how to renumber" guide.

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 10:55:18 2000
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Date:         Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:57:33 +0200
Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:01:26 PDT. 
              <5.0.0.25.2.20001017065145.03942b50@flipper>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   I got this privately, and Michael is willing to take this discussion public.

   At 08:59 AM 10/16/00 -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
   >My general feeling is that for most wireless devices there is no reason
   >why the mobile would _ever_ be directly attached to its home subnet
   >router. The reason is pretty straightforward: I want my HA to be a fast
   >router on housed on a fast network.

=> for some other reasons I believe this kind of "virtual" home link will
be common. For instance if mobile IPv6 is used for mobile phones then
the home link will be a set of large boxes inside the core of the operator
and mobile nodes will be *never* at home (in fact the home link doesn't
need to physically exist then I call this a "virtual" home link).

   There are a couple of points to consider here. One is that I tend to think
   a lot of the discussion in Mobile IP is oriented around radio networks, and
   it's not in the least obvious to me that radio networks are the only use of
   it.

=> I agree, even the future of IPv6 seems to be 3G mobile phone, my favorite
mobile IP usage is to exchange a 9600bits/s wireless expensive PPP for
a 100Mbits/s free Ethernet. Only mobile IP can do that!

   I looked through the Hierarchical Mobility draft, and it seems to have the
   right mix of things - although I have to say it is more a marketing
   statement about the technology ("it is wonderful and Ericcson is applying
   for a patent") than a statement about how to do it beyond the need for
   another bit; we need quite a bit on the routing aspects of the technology.
   But I think there is a simpler approach that scales more nicely.

=> you are a bit unfair with hierarchical mobility. This is a good idea
and some proposals are already merged and implemented (ie. it is no more
academic paper or industrial marketing :-).

   In DHCP, there is an assumption that there is a DHCP listener on every LAN.
   That isn't even close to reality, so in routers there is often a feature
   called a DHCP Helper; it receives the DHCP message and forwards it to an
   appropriate DHCP server.

=> this exists in DHCPv6 as "relays" and multicast can optionally be used
in order to find servers.

   I submit that having a Home Agent Helper - a
   process which picks up messages sent to the home agent anycast address and
   tunnels them to somewhere more central - gives you the right mix of scaling
   properties and the ability to site home agents appropriately.

=> I think the current home agent discovery in mobile IPv6 (which uses
an anycast address in the home prefix) has already the good properties
(it just needs to get some numbers from IANA to be usable :-).

   Similarly, if a mobile access helper anycast address existed, the local
   router could either be that system, or could tunnel messages to it. If
   could advise the mobile device of its presence and willingness to act as a
   care-of address; the mobile node would give this mobile access point a more
   local care-of address, and said MAP would forward messages directed to it
   to that more local COA.

=> this is the hierarchical mobility idea: hide local movements...

   The only concern I have with putting the COA
   directly on the mobile device is the need for someone to forward them
   during handoffs, and this would allow for that. It seems like this "helper"
   model is not dissimilar to the Hierarchical Mobility model, but simpler.

=> I've seen an answer by a hierarchical mobility person...

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 11:33:29 2000
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From: Claude Castelluccia <claude.castelluccia@INRIALPES.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

--------------0FCF6E63116AAF647E004E3A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Fred,

Fred Baker wrote:

>
> I looked through the Hierarchical Mobility draft, and it seems to have the
> right mix of things - although I have to say it is more a marketing
> statement about the technology ("it is wonderful and Ericcson is applying
> for a patent") than a statement about how to do it beyond the need for
> another bit; we need quite a bit on the routing aspects of the technology.

As a co-author of the draft, I of course do not agree with you.
There is nothing marketing about this draft. We describe in detail
our protocol.
What do you thing is missing in this draft? We will be very happy
to make any useful additions that will make it more technical...
BTW we also have an implementation ( that can be
downloaded at http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/)...
FYI I am not from Ericsson but from INRIA. INRIA is a public
research center. We are not selling anything and we do not care about
marketing...

>
> But I think there is a simpler approach that scales more nicely.

this looks very much like a marketing statement :-)

>
>
> In DHCP, there is an assumption that there is a DHCP listener on every LAN.
> That isn't even close to reality, so in routers there is often a feature
> called a DHCP Helper; it receives the DHCP message and forwards it to an
> appropriate DHCP server. I submit that having a Home Agent Helper - a
> process which picks up messages sent to the home agent anycast address and
> tunnels them to somewhere more central - gives you the right mix of scaling
> properties and the ability to site home agents appropriately.
>
> Similarly, if a mobile access helper anycast address existed, the local
> router could either be that system, or could tunnel messages to it. If
> could advise the mobile device of its presence and willingness to act as a
> care-of address; the mobile node would give this mobile access point a more
> local care-of address, and said MAP would forward messages directed to it
> to that more local COA. The only concern I have with putting the COA
> directly on the mobile device is the need for someone to forward them
> during handoffs, and this would allow for that. It seems like this "helper"
> model is not dissimilar to the Hierarchical Mobility model, but simpler.
>

I am not sure  I understand everthing but from what I have just read this
does not look simpler than HMIPv6.
HMIPv6 is just a simple extension to Mobile IPv6...I don't think one
can do simpler ;-)


>
> I can write up a draft if someone is interested to explore that.

yes, I think that would be really interesting and useful...

regards,

Claude.

--

----------------------------------------
Claude CASTELLUCCIA, INRIA Rhone-Alpes
ph:  +33 4.76.61.52.15 (fax: 52.52)
http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/



--------------0FCF6E63116AAF647E004E3A
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Hello Fred,
<p>Fred Baker wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>I looked through the Hierarchical Mobility draft, and it seems to have
the
<br>right mix of things - although I have to say it is more a marketing
<br>statement about the technology ("it is wonderful and Ericcson is applying
<br>for a patent") than a statement about how to do it beyond the need
for
<br>another bit; we need quite a bit on the routing aspects of the technology.</blockquote>
As a co-author of the draft, I of course do not agree with you.
<br>There is nothing marketing about this draft. We describe in detail
<br>our protocol.
<br>What do you thing is missing in this draft? We will be very happy
<br>to make any useful additions that will make it more technical...
<br>BTW we also have an implementation ( that can be
<br>downloaded at <A HREF="http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/">http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/</A>)...
<br>FYI&nbsp;I am not from Ericsson but from INRIA. INRIA&nbsp;is a public
<br>research center. We are not selling anything and we do not care about
marketing...
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>But I think there is a simpler approach that scales more nicely.</blockquote>
this looks very much like a marketing statement :-)
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>In DHCP, there is an assumption that there is a DHCP listener on every
LAN.
<br>That isn't even close to reality, so in routers there is often a feature
<br>called a DHCP Helper; it receives the DHCP message and forwards it
to an
<br>appropriate DHCP server. I submit that having a Home Agent Helper -
a
<br>process which picks up messages sent to the home agent anycast address
and
<br>tunnels them to somewhere more central - gives you the right mix of
scaling
<br>properties and the ability to site home agents appropriately.
<p>Similarly, if a mobile access helper anycast address existed, the local
<br>router could either be that system, or could tunnel messages to it.
If
<br>could advise the mobile device of its presence and willingness to act
as a
<br>care-of address; the mobile node would give this mobile access point
a more
<br>local care-of address, and said MAP would forward messages directed
to it
<br>to that more local COA. The only concern I have with putting the COA
<br>directly on the mobile device is the need for someone to forward them
<br>during handoffs, and this would allow for that. It seems like this
"helper"
<br>model is not dissimilar to the Hierarchical Mobility model, but simpler.
<br>&nbsp;</blockquote>
I am not sure&nbsp; I understand everthing but from what I have just read
this
<br>does not look simpler than HMIPv6.
<br>HMIPv6 is just a simple extension to Mobile IPv6...I&nbsp;don't think
one
<br>can do simpler ;-)
<br>&nbsp;
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<br>I can write up a draft if someone is interested to explore that.</blockquote>
yes, I think that would be really interesting and useful...
<p>regards,
<p>Claude.
<pre>--&nbsp;

----------------------------------------
Claude CASTELLUCCIA, INRIA Rhone-Alpes&nbsp;&nbsp;
ph:&nbsp; +33 4.76.61.52.15 (fax: 52.52)
<A HREF="http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/">http://www.inrialpes.fr/planete/</A></pre>
&nbsp;</html>

--------------0FCF6E63116AAF647E004E3A--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 11:42:04 2000
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Date:         Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:37:06 +0300
Reply-To: jarno.rajahalme@NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Jarno Rajahalme <jarno.rajahalme@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Francis Dupont [mailto:Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR] wrote:
>  - someone suggested in the list to use a name which can be updated
>    when the home prefix is renumbered (but not renamed :-). It is a
>    fine idea out of the scope of the mobile IPv6 draft.

NAI extensions seem to be in scope, at least for Mobile IPv4. What if the
domain portion (or part of) of the NAI could be resolved to the home
prefix(es)? The TTL of each RR could reflect the lifetime of the prefix, and
could also be zero.

> An open question is what to do with DHCPv6?
>

Are NAIs already integral part of DHCPv6?

With regards,
        Jarno Rajahalme


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From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         jarno.rajahalme@NOKIA.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:37:06 +0300. 
              <01D91AFB08B6D211BFD00008C7EABAE105855B28@eseis04nok>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   Francis Dupont [mailto:Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR] wrote:
   >  - someone suggested in the list to use a name which can be updated
   >    when the home prefix is renumbered (but not renamed :-). It is a
   >    fine idea out of the scope of the mobile IPv6 draft.

   NAI extensions seem to be in scope, at least for Mobile IPv4.

=> do you propose to use the realm part of NAIs has the default name?
This seems a natural way to do this...

   What if the domain portion (or part of) of the NAI could be
   resolved to the home prefix(es)?

=> it can point to the anycast address(es) reserved for home agents
but this kind of convention should be specified in a new document
(one more in the stack waiting mobile IPv6 publication as PS :-).

   The TTL of each RR could reflect the lifetime of the prefix,
   and could also be zero.

=> I think we should keep the standard (ie. DNS) meaning of RR TTL.
There is no need to have a too complex (ie too smart) thing and
current resolvers don't give the TTL (they should IMHO).

   > An open question is what to do with DHCPv6?

   Are NAIs already integral part of DHCPv6?

=> not in the current specs but there is a discussion about client
identifier then NAIs should not be far. In fact this identifier
should be derived from the NAI (there is an identifier per link/interface)...
IMHO NAI should be merged with other identifiers, like this one or
the user_FQDN ID payload of IKE or Subject(Alt)Name in certificates.
Of course the central user of NAIs is AAA...

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 13:50:40 2000
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Reply-To: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Karim El-Malki (ERA)" <Karim.El-Malki@ERA.ERICSSON.SE>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <5F05C89FB2F8D211B6430008C791912703EA81EB@esealnt190>

Hello:

Trying to catchup on my email, so if my comments are off-base, my apologies.




>> I looked through the Hierarchical Mobility draft, and it
>> seems to have the
>> right mix of things - although I have to say it is more a marketing
>> statement about the technology ("it is wonderful and Ericcson
>> is applying
>> for a patent") than a statement about how to do it beyond the need for
>> another bit; we need quite a bit on the routing aspects of
>> the technology.
>> But I think there is a simpler approach that scales more nicely.
>
>I guess you are referring to draft-ietf-mobileip-hmipv6-00?
>I think it has nothing to do with a marketing draft so I wonder what
>you are referring to specifically. It is authored by people employed
>by Ericsson and INRIA who have already an implementation. Since, as
>I seem to understand, we are not here representing or advertising
>companies I also don't think your statement on Ericsson is relevant.
>But I do agree with the "it is wonderful" bit!
>


just curious, what is the invention here?


>> Similarly, if a mobile access helper anycast address existed,
>> the local
>> router could either be that system, or could tunnel messages to it. If
>> could advise the mobile device of its presence and
>> willingness to act as a
>> care-of address; the mobile node would give this mobile
>> access point a more
>> local care-of address, and said MAP would forward messages
>> directed to it
>> to that more local COA. The only concern I have with putting the COA
>> directly on the mobile device is the need for someone to forward them
>> during handoffs, and this would allow for that. It seems like
>> this "helper"
>> model is not dissimilar to the Hierarchical Mobility model,
>> but simpler.

The reason you pointed out about CoA's is one of the reasons, the draft-dommety-mobileip-ipv6-lma-01.txt
leaves option for using the helpers CoA.

-Gopal


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 18:28:24 2000
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From: Fred Baker <fred@CISCO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ericsson.com.au>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <4B6BC00CD15FD2119E5F0008C7A419A50C613C93@eaubrnt018.epa.er
              icsson.se>

At 08:36 PM 10/17/00 +1100, Hesham Soliman (EPA) wrote:
>=> I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by the foreign agent.
>Perhaps you have another entity in mind ? Because the current MIPv6  draft
>does not have foreign agents.
And therefore doesn't have a soft hand off option unless one can literally
talk with both routers during the hand off. The Hierarchical Mobility draft
suggests having an external system offer one of its addresses a second
care-of address to provide this; to me, that's a foreign agent in disguise,
and would be useful in that case. Sorry I was quick on the language.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 18:37:39 2000
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 17 23:28:17 2000
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Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> At 08:36 PM 10/17/00 +1100, Hesham Soliman (EPA) wrote:
> >=> I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by the foreign agent.
> >Perhaps you have another entity in mind ? Because the current MIPv6
> draft
> >does not have foreign agents.
> And therefore doesn't have a soft hand off option unless one can literally
>
> talk with both routers during the hand off.
>
        => As far as I'm aware the term "soft handoff" is related to
        certain radio technologies that allow data to be received
        from multiple access points. This in no way implies receiving
        two separate traffic streams. It is an L2 feature that is used
        for handoffs and also as a mechanism for improving the
        received signal quality.

        IMO having foreign agents is not relevant for achieving soft
        handoffs. In fact the soft handoffs concept (as used today)
        is completely transparent to MIP (v4 and v6) or any L3
        function as it happens on L2.

> The Hierarchical Mobility draft
> suggests having an external system offer one of its addresses a second
> care-of address to provide this; to me, that's a foreign agent in
> disguise,
> and would be useful in that case. Sorry I was quick on the language.
>
        => No problems. I obviously agree with comment on the
        usefulness of the MAP function.
        We avoided using the term FA in the draft because
        it is associated with the current understanding of FAs in IPv4.
        There certainly are differences.

        - FAs are mandatory on each link in MIPv4. MAPs are not.

        - FAs in MIPv4 perform other tasks like authentication
          which is a AAA function and need not be tied to mobility
          functions.

        -  A MN can choose MAPs in the hierarchy
           based on various information in the MAP option.
           You can't do that with FAs.

        - MAPs can exist on any level of a hierarchy including
          first hop routers and are completely independant from
          each other.

        You can probably see more differences in the draft.

        What we tried to do is go away from the FA concept because
        we don't believe FAs ( as introduced in V4) are needed in IPv6.
        Perhaps some of the functions in FAs can be useful. But it
        seems unnecessary to copy and paste the functionality into IPv6.

        Hesham


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 05:51:17 2000
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Date:         Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:34:18 +0200
Reply-To: Thomas Eklund <thomas.eklund@chello.se>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Thomas Eklund <thomas.eklund@chello.se>
Organization: Home
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr>,
              "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi some commente regarding the movement detection algorithm.
I agree that it might not be a good idea to tie your movement detection to
when you are seeing an advertisement from a router with a different prefix.

First of all - the statemachine for the movementdetection can be at two
places - either in the 1) mobile node (which is the case today) or 2) it can
sit in the network and then you could have network controlled handoff.

To improve handoff you must make increase mobile IP's link-layer awarness.
This is usually achived by listening on the field strengh or something
similar of the radio link. The solution is different for every different
radio link you have.

Take 802.11 ethernet for instance, there you can associate every radio cell
(and AP) to an IP subnet with a new prefix or you can associate several AP
to an IP subnet (recomended). In case 1) you can associate every radio cell
with a subnetprefix and you modify you movement detection algoritm (MDA) so
that it builds up an internal list with prefixes and subnet and associated
field strengh.

For instance:
General Parameters:
Joning treshsholds: xxx dBm
Leaving Treshholds: xxx dBm

CoA        Current Subnet   Field strengh  Active CoA
CoA1         Prefix 1                   xx dBm           ---
CoA2         Prefix 2                   xx dBm        Active
CoA3         Prefix 3                   xx dBm           ---
CoA4         Prefix 4                   xx dBm           ---
CoA5         Prefix 5                   xx dBm           ---

The intention is also to start bulding new CoA before you must switch over
to a new AP which will make you handover quicker. You listens on the field
strengh of the different radio cells or subnets and associate make you
handover based on the field strengh.

This approach could also be done from the AP or BS which would be a good
aproach o a WAN radio like GSM or CDMA. Then the movement detection
algorithm sits (it is not called that in GSM terms) in a BSC and in tells
you to do you handover but in this case you would have to interupt that let
mobile IP have that info and then mobile IP could be invoked in network
initiated handoffs. This is nice on paper and would really optimize the
radio network for IP but there is a lot of polotics here which can make it
very difficult.

You can also include QoS parameter in your handover design and you can make
it very advanced.

In other it is nothing in the spec that stops you from achieving very good
handoffs.

-- Thomas Eklund








----- Original Message -----
From: "Francis Dupont" <Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr>
To: "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
Cc: <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>; <ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection


> In your previous mail you wrote:
>
>    Reading through section 10.4 of the MIPv6 draft (version 12), I get the
>    impression that:
>
>    1. Movement detection is not a simple problem to solve.  The draft
>    doesn't really specifiy what method should be used.
>
> => there are many different methods, some of them are (too) slow,
> some of them can detect movements when there is no movement, this can
> be a problem or not... I think we need to get results from fast/smart/...
> handoff special group and from implemention experiences.
>
>    2. Seeing an adverisement from a router with a different prefix is not
a
>    good way to detect movement.
>
> => I agree but the other way is not better.
>
>    The preferred movement detection method seems to be loss of
>    reachability of the MN's default router,
>
> => this is not good if there are more than one router and of course
> is very bad if the number of potential default routers is large enough...
>
>    which is noticed through neighbor unreachability detection
>
> => which uses neighbor solicitations, not router solicitations !
>
>    and/or use of the router advertisement interval option.
>
> => this point should be added into neighbor discovery specs (ie.
> it is useful in general, not only for mobility).
>
>    > > I also can't find RFC or draft which define exactly address list in
a
>    > > MIPv6 MN. A IPv6 node have a address list and  every prefix has
lifetime
>
> => in *theory* the list is the union of local prefixes and home prefixes,
> both are in router advertisements on the local link and through the tunnel
> with the home agent with the according lifetimes. In order to get the
whole
> list ASAP someone suggested in this list that the home agent sends router
> advertisements to the MN when a home registration is done.
>
> The issue is what happens if the home link is renumbered when the MN is
> stopped. In fact this depends on how the MN knows its home prefix(es):
>  - very stupid implementations believe the MN is started at home then
>    the home prefixes will be prefixes of the first attached link: no
>    problem with renumbering.
>  - stupid implementations use a static config in order to know home
>    prefixes then if the config is too old the MN will not be able to
>    find its home link (and a home agent).
>  - someone suggested in the list to use a name which can be updated
>    when the home prefix is renumbered (but not renamed :-). It is a
>    fine idea out of the scope of the mobile IPv6 draft.
> I think most implementations use the second way (static config)...
>
> An open question is what to do with DHCPv6?
>
> Regards
>
> Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPng Working Group Mailing List
> IPng Home Page:                      http://playground.sun.com/ipng
> FTP archive:                      ftp://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng
> Direct all administrative requests to majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 13:26:14 2000
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Message-ID:  <Pine.SGI.4.20.0010181013290.24324-100000@mars.iol.unh.edu>
Date:         Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:10:50 -0400
Reply-To: "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Thomas Eklund <thomas.eklund@chello.se>
X-cc:         Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr>,
              ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <002e01c038e6$96cc9f80$6309000a@xelthomasek01>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Thomas Eklund wrote:

> Hi some commente regarding the movement detection algorithm.
> I agree that it might not be a good idea to tie your movement detection to
> when you are seeing an advertisement from a router with a different prefix.
>
> First of all - the statemachine for the movementdetection can be at two
> places - either in the 1) mobile node (which is the case today) or 2) it can
> sit in the network and then you could have network controlled handoff.
>
> To improve handoff you must make increase mobile IP's link-layer awarness.
> This is usually achived by listening on the field strengh or something
> similar of the radio link. The solution is different for every different
> radio link you have.

[cut]

I don't doubt that there are many ways the link layer could provide
excellent movement detection.  I think the issue here is how to provide
some movement detection for MIPv6 without any special signalling from
lower layers.

I think you did touch on an important point - movement detection is really
two problems - (1) detecting movement on to a link, and (2) detecting
movement off of a link.  If the mobile node is eager to move to new
networks, then it is only critial that (1) take place quickly for smooth
handoffs.  Its somewhat less clear to me when (2) must take place, but it
should happen eventually.

With this in mind, I'd like to suggest this as an idea for movement
detection:

- Require that a home agent's router advertisements always contain all
of the prefixes on the network that are valid for home or CO addresses.

- Then, whenever a MN receives an RA with the H bit set, it will know
with certainty whether that RA came from the current home or foreign
network, or from some new network, based on whether the prefix of the MN's
home or current CO address is advertised in the RA.  This way, movement
onto a new link is detected as soon as any home agent on that link sends
an advertisement.

- Whenever an RA is received indicating movement onto a new link,
the MN transitions neigbor cache entry for the old default router(s) to
stale, to accelerate unreachability detection.

Of course, the danger here is that the network could be misconfigured so
that home agents are not advertising all prefixes.  This would be
sub-optimal (mobility would be uses when it is not needed), but wouldn't
prevent the mobile node from communicating.

I'm curious what people think of this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
John Leser                      UNH InterOperability Lab
IP/Routing Consortium Engineer  Morse Hall, 39 College Rd, Room 332
Tel: (603) 862-0090 (8-5 EST)   Durham, NH 03824-3525
Fax: (603) 862-1761             Web: www.iol.unh.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 13:26:15 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello John,

I've been unable to keep up with the general discussion on
this issue, but I've scanned through many of the messages.
I think this is an issue that should be resolved in the next
(and perhaps _last_ before Proposed Standard) revision of the
Mobile IPv6 protocol specification, which is coming imminently.
Thus, I'd like to find out if we can get to some agreement on
whatever clarifications or enhancements are needed.

> I don't doubt that there are many ways the link layer could provide
> excellent movement detection.  I think the issue here is how to provide
> some movement detection for MIPv6 without any special signalling from
> lower layers.

Agree.

Your suggestion:

> - Require that a home agent's router advertisements always contain all
> of the prefixes on the network that are valid for home or CO addresses.

seems to solve the problem with least harm.  I particularly think
it compares well with another alternative which was suggested,
according to which the mobile node would have to assume that every
advertising home agent was its own home agent.  I think the strategy
above will introduce less traffic on the wireless link.

I also agree with previous statements that renumbering should happen
gently.  In the context of your suggestion, this would mean that the
deprecated prefix would be carried by agent advertisements for quite
a while.  I think that whatever is specified in the Neighbor Discovery
draft SHOULD cover the required time durations for deprecated addresses,
but I didn't go check the wording before sending this message.  If it
is not sufficient there, then we should make some explicit parameter
value specifications in the Mobile IPv6 draft.

> - Whenever an RA is received indicating movement onto a new link,
> the MN transitions neigbor cache entry for the old default router(s) to
> stale, to accelerate unreachability detection.

Agree.  And, if your strategy is adopted, I reckon the draft should
explicitly state this.

> Of course, the danger here is that the network could be misconfigured so
> that home agents are not advertising all prefixes.  This would be
> sub-optimal (mobility would be uses when it is not needed), but wouldn't
> prevent the mobile node from communicating.

A lot of things can go wrong if the network is misconfigured!

Maybe we can put mandatory requirements in the draft so that such
misconfigurations go against explicitly stated MUSTs.  Your help
in determining some correct wording would be appreciated.

Regards,
Charlie P.


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Reply-To: jarno.rajahalme@NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Jarno Rajahalme <jarno.rajahalme@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

John F. Leser wrote:
> - Then, whenever a MN receives an RA with the H bit set, it will know
> with certainty whether that RA came from the current home or foreign
> network, or from some new network, based on whether the prefix of the
> MN's home or current CO address is advertised in the RA. This way,
> movement onto a new link is detected as soon as any home agent on that
> link sends an advertisement.
>

What if the MN never receives a RA with the H bit set?
I hope you do not assume all links have home agents.

With regards,

        Jarno Rajahalme


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 15:01:39 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Jarno Rajahalme <jarno.rajahalme@NOKIA.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <01D91AFB08B6D211BFD00008C7EABAE105855C93@eseis04nok>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Jarno Rajahalme wrote:

> John F. Leser wrote:
> > - Then, whenever a MN receives an RA with the H bit set, it will know
> > with certainty whether that RA came from the current home or foreign
> > network, or from some new network, based on whether the prefix of the
> > MN's home or current CO address is advertised in the RA. This way,
> > movement onto a new link is detected as soon as any home agent on that
> > link sends an advertisement.
> >
>
> What if the MN never receives a RA with the H bit set?

Then the mobile node falls back on some slower mode of movement
detection.

> I hope you do not assume all links have home agents.
>
Routers could be configured to fill this role while not accepting home
registrations by setting the H bit and inclunding a home agent information
option with 0 home agent lifetime (This is currently against spec, but
could be defined to mean 'I have complete prefix information but will not
serve as a home agent')  Or, perhapse it would be better/cleaner to define
another bit the RA to indicate that this router has the complete prefix
list.

> With regards,
>
>         Jarno Rajahalme
>


-------------------------------------------------------------------
John Leser                      UNH InterOperability Lab
IP/Routing Consortium Engineer  Morse Hall, 39 College Rd, Room 332
Tel: (603) 862-0090 (8-5 EST)   Durham, NH 03824-3525
Fax: (603) 862-1761             Web: www.iol.unh.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------


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ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

RUSSELL OLSEN
5409 YARMOUTH AVE #3
ENCINO, CA 91316


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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 18:39:47 2000
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Message-ID:  <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.971908040.19059.glass@purol.east>
Date:         Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:27:20 -0400
Reply-To: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Hi, this is for you.....
X-cc:         Phil Roberts <qa3445@email.mot.com>,
              Basavaraj Patil <basavaraj.patil@nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID" <200010182158.AA05785@www.gbtc.org>

>Dear Friend:
>
>Do you need a change in your life?

   Yes.  Any update on the WG's ability to get rid of this stuff?

                              Cheers,
                                  Steve


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 18:46:18 2000
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Date:         Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:41:02 -0700
Reply-To: Patrice Calhoun <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Patrice Calhoun <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Hi, this is for you.....
X-To:         Steven Glass - Solaris Software <Steven.Glass@east.sun.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID"
              <Roam.SIMC.2.0.6.971908040.19059.glass@purol.east>

> >Dear Friend:
> >
> >Do you need a change in your life?
>
>    Yes.  Any update on the WG's ability to get rid of this stuff?
>
I don't think this was unsolicited spam, Steve. As it turns out, I believe the
author of the e-mail correctly assumed that most people on this list need a
life.

:)

PatC


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 18:53:22 2000
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Date:         Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:51:05 +1100
Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Jarno Rajahalme wrote:
>
> > John F. Leser wrote:
> > > - Then, whenever a MN receives an RA with the H bit set, it will know
> > > with certainty whether that RA came from the current home or foreign
> > > network, or from some new network, based on whether the prefix of the
> > > MN's home or current CO address is advertised in the RA. This way,
> > > movement onto a new link is detected as soon as any home agent on that
> > > link sends an advertisement.
> > >
> >
> > What if the MN never receives a RA with the H bit set?
>
> Then the mobile node falls back on some slower mode of movement
> detection.
>
        => I'm not sure why you're emphasising the 'H' bit.
        The H bit is only a flag that means "I'm a HA".
        It does NOT mean "I'm YOUR HA". So having said that,
        I would say you don't have to worry about having the HA
        tell if you're at home or not. You know that from the RA,
        whether it comes from your HA or another router.

> > I hope you do not assume all links have home agents.
> >
> Routers could be configured to fill this role while not accepting home
> registrations by setting the H bit and inclunding a home agent information
> option with 0 home agent lifetime (This is currently against spec, but
> could be defined to mean 'I have complete prefix information but will not
> serve as a home agent')  Or, perhapse it would be better/cleaner to define
> another bit the RA to indicate that this router has the complete prefix
> list.
>
        => Why not just advertise the RA ? What is the point
        of the H bit ?

        I'd like to repeat a comment that was said before.
        A MN does not have to move when it has a new
        prefix. It has to move when it hears a new prefix
        and the old default router disappears.

        If you think that it is too slow to probe the old router
        then you can move as soon as you hear a new prefix.
        This is ok as long as you don't oscillate.


        Hesham


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 19:08:06 2000
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Reply-To: Basavaraj.Patil@NOKIA.COM
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Basavaraj Patil <Basavaraj.Patil@NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Hi, this is for you.....
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Yes. Dave Oran has authorized us to go ahead and put in place
mechanisms within the guidelines. I have requested the list owner
(Ron Young - ronyoung@nortelnetworks.com) to at the least have
e-mails to the list sent only by people who are registered. I still need
to check if that is allowed in the guidelines. Maybe you can shed
some light on this Steve and let me know or Ron know what are the
things within the guidelines.

-Basavaraj

> -----Original Message-----
> From: EXT Steven Glass - Solaris Software
> [mailto:Steven.Glass@east.sun.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 5:27 PM
> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Cc: Phil Roberts; Basavaraj Patil
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] Hi, this is for you.....
>
>
> >Dear Friend:
> >
> >Do you need a change in your life?
>
>    Yes.  Any update on the WG's ability to get rid of this stuff?
>
>                               Cheers,
>                                   Steve
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Wed Oct 18 22:16:38 2000
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Date:         Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:12:57 -0700
Reply-To: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Charlie Perkins <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello,

I thought that the idea was to have the home agent advertise all
of the "available" prefixes.  If the mobile node is on a link that
doesn't have a home agent, then it should still be able to listen
for regular advertisements, but then it doesn't have to worry about
renumbering its home address.  Whatever strategy is realistic for
renumbering non-mobile nodes, will also work for mobile nodes
and their care-of addresses.

I don't think there is any problem here.  I thought that the only
problem was when the mobile node might have been away from
home for long enough to miss out on some transitional advertisements
from its home agent.  Is there something else?

Regards,
Charlie P.



"Hesham Soliman (EPA)" wrote:

> > On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Jarno Rajahalme wrote:
> >
> > > John F. Leser wrote:
> > > > - Then, whenever a MN receives an RA with the H bit set, it will know
> > > > with certainty whether that RA came from the current home or foreign
> > > > network, or from some new network, based on whether the prefix of the
> > > > MN's home or current CO address is advertised in the RA. This way,
> > > > movement onto a new link is detected as soon as any home agent on that
> > > > link sends an advertisement.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What if the MN never receives a RA with the H bit set?
> >
> > Then the mobile node falls back on some slower mode of movement
> > detection.
> >
>         => I'm not sure why you're emphasising the 'H' bit.
>         The H bit is only a flag that means "I'm a HA".
>         It does NOT mean "I'm YOUR HA". So having said that,
>         I would say you don't have to worry about having the HA
>         tell if you're at home or not. You know that from the RA,
>         whether it comes from your HA or another router.
>
> > > I hope you do not assume all links have home agents.
> > >
> > Routers could be configured to fill this role while not accepting home
> > registrations by setting the H bit and inclunding a home agent information
> > option with 0 home agent lifetime (This is currently against spec, but
> > could be defined to mean 'I have complete prefix information but will not
> > serve as a home agent')  Or, perhapse it would be better/cleaner to define
> > another bit the RA to indicate that this router has the complete prefix
> > list.
> >
>         => Why not just advertise the RA ? What is the point
>         of the H bit ?
>
>         I'd like to repeat a comment that was said before.
>         A MN does not have to move when it has a new
>         prefix. It has to move when it hears a new prefix
>         and the old default router disappears.
>
>         If you think that it is too slow to probe the old router
>         then you can move as soon as you hear a new prefix.
>         This is ok as long as you don't oscillate.
>
>         Hesham


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 19 17:47:02 2000
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Date:         Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:33:05 -0500
Reply-To: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 <Madjid.Nakhjiri@MOTOROLA.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 <Madjid.Nakhjiri@MOTOROLA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

I am new to this list and MIP in general and v6 in particular, so I am sorry if there has been a thread about this in the past. A pointer to a place to read is fine with me too.
My question concerns the security of this scenario:
The home link changes it's prefix and starts sending router advertisement messages, we are trying to find a solution by which the mobile need to recognize that it has not moved and it is just its old Home link with a new address. What if we all of a sudden had a malicious attacker, who starts sending router advertisement with bogus new home addresses(assuming it has brought the home router down through some DoS attack in the mean time) and pretending to be the home router. As far as I understand the router advertisements are not authenticated. Wouldn't all the mobile nodes getting services in that area be confused for a while. Is there a restriction on who can send RAs?
Does there have to be some kind of security association that need to be established before somebody can send a router advertisement?
I guess if we choose to send info on both the old and the new address in the advertisement it helps, but I do not how much?


Thanks,

Madjid Nakhjiri

-----Original Message-----
From: John F. Leser [mailto:jfl@IOL.UNH.EDU]
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 9:14 AM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection


On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Hesham Soliman (EPA) wrote:

> > What is the difference between two advertisement below ?
> >       - Renumbered home link router advertisement
> >       - Router advertisement in a foreign link
> >
> > My question is why the mobile node don't just add the new address
> > in MN's address list. How do the MN decide whether it start MIPv6
> > process or autoconfiguration process for renumbered home link address.
> > What if the all home addresses in the list have expired before the MN
> > get FA's router advertisement, can the MN still use the expired address
> > record
> > in it's system ?
> >
>         => I think you're certainly asking the right question but
>         perhaps to the wrong mailing list :)
>         If I understand you correctly, you're saying that while the
>         MN is at Home, if a new advertisement is received with a new
>         prefix, how does it know that this is not another foreign subnet.
>         Well based on my rusty knowledge  of ND and stateless address
>         configuration, it doesnt know. But I don't think that this is
> strictly
>         a MIP issue. While you're at home MIP does not do anything
>         for  you. So that's why I'll cc IPng on this to see if someone can
>         give you a better answer, or maybe I missed something here.
>         BTW FA's do not exist in MIPv6.
>

Reading through section 10.4 of the MIPv6 draft (version 12), I get the
impression that:

1. Movement detection is not a simple problem to solve.  The draft
doesn't really specifiy what method should be used.

2. Seeing an adverisement from a router with a different prefix is not a
good way to detect movement.  The preferred movement detection method
seems to be loss of reachability of the MN's default router, which is
noticed through neighbor unreachability detection and/or use of the
router advertisement interval option.

>
>
>
>
> > I also can't find RFC or draft which define exactly address list in a
> > MIPv6 MN. A IPv6 node have a address list and  every prefix has lifetime.
> > Please give me some advice on it.
> >
> >
> >
>

You may want to take a look at section 5.2 of RFC 2462, which mentions the
address list.  I hope this is helpful.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
John Leser                      UNH InterOperability Lab
IP/Routing Consortium Engineer  Morse Hall, 39 College Rd, Room 332
Tel: (603) 862-0090 (8-5 EST)   Durham, NH 03824-3525
Fax: (603) 862-1761             Web: www.iol.unh.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 20 01:59:49 2000
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Date:         Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:57:24 +1100
Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

> I thought that the idea was to have the home agent advertise all
> of the "available" prefixes.  If the mobile node is on a link that
> doesn't have a home agent, then it should still be able to listen
> for regular advertisements, but then it doesn't have to worry about
> renumbering its home address.  Whatever strategy is realistic for
> renumbering non-mobile nodes, will also work for mobile nodes
> and their care-of addresses.
>
        => My main concern was that we shouldn't have routers
        advertising with the H bit set and not act as HAs, which is what
        was suggested for the case when the MN is in a foreign network.
        I didn't see a reason for that and it is against the current
standard.

> I don't think there is any problem here.  I thought that the only
> problem was when the mobile node might have been away from
> home for long enough to miss out on some transitional advertisements
> from its home agent.  Is there something else?
>
        => If you mean "if the MN is turned off for a long time ?" then
        I agree. Because the MN can still receive the renumbering
        information from the HA while it's away. Unless I
        misunderstood the renumbering chapter ?

        My understanding is that the HA will take important information
        (like renumbering) out of the advertisements on link and forward
        them to the MN when it's away.
        The only problem I see is if the MN is turned off for a very
        long period of time (does not register with the HA)
        and does not receive this information.

> "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Jarno Rajahalme wrote:
> > >
> > > > John F. Leser wrote:
> > > > > - Then, whenever a MN receives an RA with the H bit set, it will
> know
> > > > > with certainty whether that RA came from the current home or
> foreign
> > > > > network, or from some new network, based on whether the prefix of
> the
> > > > > MN's home or current CO address is advertised in the RA. This way,
> > > > > movement onto a new link is detected as soon as any home agent on
> that
> > > > > link sends an advertisement.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > What if the MN never receives a RA with the H bit set?
> > >
> > > Then the mobile node falls back on some slower mode of movement
> > > detection.
> > >
> >         => I'm not sure why you're emphasising the 'H' bit.
> >         The H bit is only a flag that means "I'm a HA".
> >         It does NOT mean "I'm YOUR HA". So having said that,
> >         I would say you don't have to worry about having the HA
> >         tell if you're at home or not. You know that from the RA,
> >         whether it comes from your HA or another router.
> >
> > > > I hope you do not assume all links have home agents.
> > > >
> > > Routers could be configured to fill this role while not accepting home
> > > registrations by setting the H bit and inclunding a home agent
> information
> > > option with 0 home agent lifetime (This is currently against spec, but
> > > could be defined to mean 'I have complete prefix information but will
> not
> > > serve as a home agent')  Or, perhapse it would be better/cleaner to
> define
> > > another bit the RA to indicate that this router has the complete
> prefix
> > > list.
> > >
> >         => Why not just advertise the RA ? What is the point
> >         of the H bit ?
> >
> >         I'd like to repeat a comment that was said before.
> >         A MN does not have to move when it has a new
> >         prefix. It has to move when it hears a new prefix
> >         and the old default router disappears.
> >
> >         If you think that it is too slow to probe the old router
> >         then you can move as soon as you hear a new prefix.
> >         This is ok as long as you don't oscillate.
> >
> >         Hesham


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 20 08:07:46 2000
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Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@iol.unh.edu>
X-cc:         Thomas Eklund <thomas.eklund@chello.se>, ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:10:50 EDT. 
              <Pine.SGI.4.20.0010181013290.24324-100000@mars.iol.unh.edu>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   With this in mind, I'd like to suggest this as an idea for movement
   detection:

   - Require that a home agent's router advertisements always contain all
   of the prefixes on the network that are valid for home or CO addresses.

=> according to other messages your idea is to overload the meaning
of the H flag with "this RA announces all the prefixes"...
I don't think it is a good idea but if to know the number of prefixes
(there are some optimizations where this info is needed) is very useful
then why not a new extension with it in any RA?

   - Then, whenever a MN receives an RA with the H bit set, it will know
   with certainty whether that RA came from the current home or foreign
   network, or from some new network, based on whether the prefix of the MN's
   home or current CO address is advertised in the RA.  This way, movement
   onto a new link is detected as soon as any home agent on that link sends
   an advertisement.

=> this is not protected against a rogue RA and doesn't work with
overlapping cells (which seems to need the help of the layer two).

   - Whenever an RA is received indicating movement onto a new link,
   the MN transitions neigbor cache entry for the old default router(s) to
   stale, to accelerate unreachability detection.

=> move the state to incomplete is more aggressive (faster but more
expensive if there is no real movement).

   I'm curious what people think of this.

=> I think to rely on RAs for movement detection is not very good because
if this should be fast then the frequency of RAs has to be very high
(ie. higher than reasonnable). And this is dedicated to a very special
scenario (the cellular one) when there are many of them. In this list
(mobile IP) many of us did shout that cellular != wireless != mobile,
please add me...

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr

PS: the only very clear indication you can get from a RA is to receive
an announce for the home prefix(es) where you are in visit. In other
cases you can only suspect a movement.


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:51:05 +1100. 
              <4B6BC00CD15FD2119E5F0008C7A419A50C613CBB@eaubrnt018.epa.ericsson.se>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

           I'd like to repeat a comment that was said before.
           A MN does not have to move when it has a new
           prefix. It has to move when it hears a new prefix
           and the old default router disappears.

=> I'll agree if you change "the old default router" by "old default routers".

           If you think that it is too slow to probe the old router
           then you can move as soon as you hear a new prefix.
           This is ok as long as you don't oscillate.

=> I think it is important to be protected against rogue router
advertisements... The only scenario discussed here is the cellular one
and usually it is not the kind of media with the lowest error rate.
And of course there is the case of overlapping cells.

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 20 08:33:19 2000
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Date:         Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:21:16 -0700
Reply-To: "Karan, Karuna" <Karuna.Karan@AVNET.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Karan, Karuna" <Karuna.Karan@AVNET.COM>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Pls change my email id
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi
Pls change my email id to karunamenon@aol.com and delete my email id
karuna.karan@avnet.com fm your address.
thanks..karuna


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 20 08:41:06 2000
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Date:         Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:38:39 +0200
Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Nakhjiri Madjid-MNAKHJI1 <Madjid.Nakhjiri@MOTOROLA.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:33:05 CDT. 
              <0DF9920C9AD8D211AB0C0008C7CF1C9A0498FB95@il27exm02.cig.mot.com>

Please look at Link-shared secrets for ND presented by D. McDonald
in March at the IETF meeting in Adelaide (to protect ND with IPsec
will improve many things but a good way to spread secrets is needed).

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


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From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Francis,

>            If you think that it is too slow to probe the old router
>            then you can move as soon as you hear a new prefix.
>            This is ok as long as you don't oscillate.
>
> => I think it is important to be protected against rogue router
> advertisements... The only scenario discussed here is the cellular one
> and usually it is not the kind of media with the lowest error rate.
> And of course there is the case of overlapping cells.

My radar is tuned to finding things that need to be changed
in the specification for the next revision.  I don't think
this represents a "Mobile IPv6" problem.  I think it is a more
basic problem with Neighbor Advertisements, and as such we should
not try to fix it in the Mobile IPv6 specification.

Does this sound reasonable?  I hope so, because I am very
much hoping to avoid the big delay that fixing this problem
would represent.

Regards,
Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 20 12:08:12 2000
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Message-ID:  <3.0.32.20001020175404.00e8470c@era-t.ericsson.se>
Date:         Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:54:04 +0200
Reply-To: Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last Call
              -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Gopal Dommety <gdommety@CISCO.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Gopal,

as Charlie say's, we have discussed this a lot. Here are some of our
reasoning. The home and the regional registrations will always differ
because of different replay protection and security associations for the
authentication extensions. Furthermore, the FA has to be able to handle
many different cases: a) normal RFC2002 registration b) home registration
through GFA (to prepare for regional registrations) c) home registration
with GFA set to zero (to ask that a GFA be assigned) d)regional
registration e) regional registration with FA set to zero (in case FA does
not advertise itself).

Therefore we think that using different message types to separate the
handling of the home and the regional registration messages would make it
simpler for the FA:s. I can give you one example: The MN is allowed to try
to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does not
know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old GFA is
the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
registration would fail.

/Annika

At 22:35 2000-10-11 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:
>Charlie,
>
>
>1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out
requiring new messages, it is
>possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
>
>2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be where
the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e, in
one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there, in
the regional case
>it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if
more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
>
>3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new messages
are given below:
>
>                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
>                            between regional registrations and home
>                            registrations, because when it uses
>                            regional registration, the nounces are not
>                            synchronized with its home agent;
>
>                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
>                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
>                            registration) or to signify the use of an
>                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
>                            regional registration).
>
>Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
>
>more comments below:
>
>
>>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional
registration request/reply messages. I think
>>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
>>
>>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
>>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
>>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
>>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
>>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
>>making extensions to the existing messages would have
>>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
>>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
>
>Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
>an extension.
>
>
>>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
>>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
>>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
>>levels of hierarchy.
>
>don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
>
>moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the
home registration also.
>
>
>>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the
GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
>>> registrations.
>>
>>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home
registration.
>
>It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the
message and the extensions.
>
>
>>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft
(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
>>
>>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've alluded
to already.
>>
>>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions. Using
existing messages with extensions makes
>>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing
anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
>>
>>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the
implementation
>>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not have
to build
>>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have
mentioned already,
>>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I
think that the
>
>could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
>
>
>Regards,
>Gopal
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 20 12:25:17 2000
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Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:26:28 PDT. 
              <39F06424.F9788829@iprg.nokia.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   >            If you think that it is too slow to probe the old router
   >            then you can move as soon as you hear a new prefix.
   >            This is ok as long as you don't oscillate.
   >
   > => I think it is important to be protected against rogue router
   > advertisements... The only scenario discussed here is the cellular one
   > and usually it is not the kind of media with the lowest error rate.
   > And of course there is the case of overlapping cells.

   My radar is tuned to finding things that need to be changed
   in the specification for the next revision.  I don't think
   this represents a "Mobile IPv6" problem.

=> I agree. In fact I think all the movement detection stuff should
not slow down the Mobile IPv6 draft because they are out of the scope
(ie. if there are too many things to say about this, another document
should be produced).
As soon as neighbor discovery is correctly used in the mobility draft
no change are needed (then only MUST in 10.19 should be changed,
to do a DAD for the home agent address is an extreme solution then
should be used only when nothing else can work: IMHO the MUST is too strong).

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sat Oct 21 00:10:06 2000
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From: Satwant Kaur <wizkid11@XNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last Call
              -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello,

I am implementing the Regional Registration
(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt), and I agree with Annika that it is
important for FA and GFA to be able to make the distinction between the Home
Registration Request (type 1) and Regional Registration Request (type 2)
messages. Furthermore, the mobility Agents should also be able to make a
distinction between Registration Reply (type 3) and Regional registration
reply (type 4).

Another case where a similar problem would arise:

Suppose MN wants to do Home Registration with a FA who does not advertise
itself. MN wants to be assigned a GFA and so it sends a Home Registration
Request (type 1) with careof field as 0, and HA address in the Home Agent
field.

Now, if we do not have additional message types to be able to make a
distinction between type 1 and type 2 Registration requests, the FA will
have no way of knowing if (1) It is a home Registration with MN asking to be
assigned a GFA for home Registration, or (2) It is a Regional Registration
(with FA set to 0, since FA did not advertise itself).

FA can (mis)interpret it as type 2 message. It will incorrectly assume that
the HA address is really the GFA that the MN wants to register with. It will
then forward the request to its HA address under the assumption it is really
the GFA, instead of assigning a GFA address, and forwarding the registration
to the assigned GFA.

The above problem arose since FA reads the registration requests sent by MN,
and forwards them to GFA. In the absence of the message type that would
enable FA to make a distinction between home registration request (type 1)
and regional registration request (type 2), the FA does not know where to
send the request to. The GFA address lies in the Home Agent field in case of
type 2 and in the careof field in case of type 1 message. If the additional
type 2 message is not there, FA cannot make the distinction between Home Vs
Regional Registration Request.

Similar problems will arise at GFA level, since when the GFA reads the
Registration Requests sent out by FA, and either forwards them to HA (in
case of Home Registration) or sends the reply back to FA (in case of
Regional Registration). If the type 2 message type is not there, GFA cannot
make the distinction between Home and Regional Registration. And it would
not know whether to send it forward to HA, or to send reply back to FA.

Similar problems will also arise on the way back for Registration Reply
messages at FA and GFA, if type 4 is not present.

Apart from the problems in the above special cases, I also do not favor
using anything other than message types to understand what type of
registration /registration reply it is. The reason is if one uses some other
characteristics of the packets (in this case, the extensions) other than its
"type" to identify the type of packets, it is against the spirit of
assigning the right job to the right field. It may also give us grief down
the road as it would restrict our freedom to use extensions in different and
more creative ways in future.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Annika Jonsson" <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
To: <MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
Call -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)


> Hi Gopal,
>
> as Charlie say's, we have discussed this a lot. Here are some of our
> reasoning. The home and the regional registrations will always differ
> because of different replay protection and security associations for the
> authentication extensions. Furthermore, the FA has to be able to handle
> many different cases: a) normal RFC2002 registration b) home registration
> through GFA (to prepare for regional registrations) c) home registration
> with GFA set to zero (to ask that a GFA be assigned) d)regional
> registration e) regional registration with FA set to zero (in case FA does
> not advertise itself).
>
> Therefore we think that using different message types to separate the
> handling of the home and the regional registration messages would make it
> simpler for the FA:s. I can give you one example: The MN is allowed to try
> to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
> that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does not
> know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
> that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old GFA is
> the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
> registration would fail.
>
> /Annika
>
> At 22:35 2000-10-11 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:
> >Charlie,
> >
> >
> >1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out
> requiring new messages, it is
> >possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
> >
> >2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be where
> the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e,
in
> one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there,
in
> the regional case
> >it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if
> more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
> >
> >3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new
messages
> are given below:
> >
> >                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
> >                            between regional registrations and home
> >                            registrations, because when it uses
> >                            regional registration, the nounces are not
> >                            synchronized with its home agent;
> >
> >                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
> >                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
> >                            registration) or to signify the use of an
> >                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
> >                            regional registration).
> >
> >Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
> >
> >more comments below:
> >
> >
> >>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional
> registration request/reply messages. I think
> >>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
> >>
> >>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
> >>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
> >>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
> >>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
> >>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
> >>making extensions to the existing messages would have
> >>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
> >>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
> >
> >Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
> >an extension.
> >
> >
> >>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
> >>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
> >>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
> >>levels of hierarchy.
> >
> >don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
> >
> >moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the
> home registration also.
> >
> >
> >>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the
> GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
> >>> registrations.
> >>
> >>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home
> registration.
> >
> >It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the
> message and the extensions.
> >
> >
> >>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft
> (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
> >>
> >>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've
alluded
> to already.
> >>
> >>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions.
Using
> existing messages with extensions makes
> >>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing
> anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
> >>
> >>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the
> implementation
> >>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not
have
> to build
> >>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have
> mentioned already,
> >>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I
> think that the
> >
> >could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >Gopal
> >
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sat Oct 21 00:48:40 2000
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Reply-To: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

>    I'm curious what people think of this.
>
> => I think to rely on RAs for movement detection is not very good because
> if this should be fast then the frequency of RAs has to be very high
> (ie. higher than reasonnable). And this is dedicated to a very special
> scenario (the cellular one) when there are many of them. In this list
> (mobile IP) many of us did shout that cellular != wireless != mobile,
> please add me...
>
        => I agree that we don't need very frequent RA's, and that
        other optimisations are required for faster handoffs.
        If I understood your statement correctly, you seem to
        suggest that cellular systems don't mind this frequent
        RAs idea. As far as I know sending very frequent RAs
        is NOT a good idea for cellular systems as radio resources
        are more scarce and expensive in these types of lnks than
        in other wireless environment. So the less RAs sent, the
        more efficient systems are in terms of radio use.


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From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "Hesham Soliman (EPA)" <Hesham.Soliman@ERICSSON.COM.AU>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:46:21 +1100. 
              <4B6BC00CD15FD2119E5F0008C7A419A50C613CDB@eaubrnt018.epa.ericsson.se>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

           => I agree that we don't need very frequent RA's, and that
           other optimisations are required for faster handoffs.
           If I understood your statement correctly, you seem to
           suggest that cellular systems don't mind this frequent
           RAs idea.

=> it is not exactly my point:
 - frequent RAs is not a good idea
 - this idea applies only to cellular systems which are only a part
   of all situations where mobile IP is useful.
Then my concern is we can put too much energy to improve a shaky solution
for a special case...

           As far as I know sending very frequent RAs
           is NOT a good idea for cellular systems as radio resources
           are more scarce and expensive in these types of lnks than
           in other wireless environment. So the less RAs sent, the
           more efficient systems are in terms of radio use.

=> then you agree at least on the first part.

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sat Oct 21 17:07:00 2000
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Message-ID:  <39F202AC.AC847877@cc.hut.fi>
Date:         Sat, 21 Oct 2000 23:55:08 +0300
Reply-To: "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@CC.HUT.FI>
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From: "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@CC.HUT.FI>
Organization: HUT
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
              Call-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Satwant Kaur <wizkid11@XNET.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hi,

In my opinion, additional messages makes the protocol partly clearer,
but partly more complex.

Here are my questions (please point me to the appropriate messages, if
these questions have already been discussed :)

- Is it possible/needed that a FA does not know the GFA or GFAs above
it?
I think FAs and GFAs should have trust relationships = knowledge of
each other.

- Why do we need to add intelligence to the mobile node?
Having a totally transparent hierarchy is possible. The MN would speak
standard RFC2002 MIP and would still get the best efficiency in
registrations through the regionalized handoffs. By defining new
messages we do add intelligence to MN. It must know what kind of
registrations to send.

And my totally subjective opinion:
  ;-)
Despite the lively discussion about regionalized handoffs etc., I
still have not seen many transparent, fast and *implemented*
approaches. If the ideas in the drafts have been implemented, please
provide the community some links to the material. Dynamics  - HUT
Mobile IP has been rocking for 1.5 years now. Dynamics is transparent
to the Mobile Node and still provides fast handoffs.

Should we write a competing draft? ;-) We didn't do it in the first
place because we felt it would just slow down the fast handoff design
process. Unfortunately the process has been unbelievably slow. I am
really looking forward to a solution in this issue.

Regards,
        Tom

--
        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
                                Helsinki University of Technology
                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi

http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/


Satwant Kaur wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am implementing the Regional Registration
> (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt), and I agree with Annika that it is
> important for FA and GFA to be able to make the distinction between the Home
> Registration Request (type 1) and Regional Registration Request (type 2)
> messages. Furthermore, the mobility Agents should also be able to make a
> distinction between Registration Reply (type 3) and Regional registration
> reply (type 4).
>
> Another case where a similar problem would arise:
>
> Suppose MN wants to do Home Registration with a FA who does not advertise
> itself. MN wants to be assigned a GFA and so it sends a Home Registration
> Request (type 1) with careof field as 0, and HA address in the Home Agent
> field.
>
> Now, if we do not have additional message types to be able to make a
> distinction between type 1 and type 2 Registration requests, the FA will
> have no way of knowing if (1) It is a home Registration with MN asking to be
> assigned a GFA for home Registration, or (2) It is a Regional Registration
> (with FA set to 0, since FA did not advertise itself).
>
> FA can (mis)interpret it as type 2 message. It will incorrectly assume that
> the HA address is really the GFA that the MN wants to register with. It will
> then forward the request to its HA address under the assumption it is really
> the GFA, instead of assigning a GFA address, and forwarding the registration
> to the assigned GFA.
>
> The above problem arose since FA reads the registration requests sent by MN,
> and forwards them to GFA. In the absence of the message type that would
> enable FA to make a distinction between home registration request (type 1)
> and regional registration request (type 2), the FA does not know where to
> send the request to. The GFA address lies in the Home Agent field in case of
> type 2 and in the careof field in case of type 1 message. If the additional
> type 2 message is not there, FA cannot make the distinction between Home Vs
> Regional Registration Request.
>
> Similar problems will arise at GFA level, since when the GFA reads the
> Registration Requests sent out by FA, and either forwards them to HA (in
> case of Home Registration) or sends the reply back to FA (in case of
> Regional Registration). If the type 2 message type is not there, GFA cannot
> make the distinction between Home and Regional Registration. And it would
> not know whether to send it forward to HA, or to send reply back to FA.
>
> Similar problems will also arise on the way back for Registration Reply
> messages at FA and GFA, if type 4 is not present.
>
> Apart from the problems in the above special cases, I also do not favor
> using anything other than message types to understand what type of
> registration /registration reply it is. The reason is if one uses some other
> characteristics of the packets (in this case, the extensions) other than its
> "type" to identify the type of packets, it is against the spirit of
> assigning the right job to the right field. It may also give us grief down
> the road as it would restrict our freedom to use extensions in different and
> more creative ways in future.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Annika Jonsson" <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
> To: <MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
> Call -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
>
> > Hi Gopal,
> >
> > as Charlie say's, we have discussed this a lot. Here are some of our
> > reasoning. The home and the regional registrations will always differ
> > because of different replay protection and security associations for the
> > authentication extensions. Furthermore, the FA has to be able to handle
> > many different cases: a) normal RFC2002 registration b) home registration
> > through GFA (to prepare for regional registrations) c) home registration
> > with GFA set to zero (to ask that a GFA be assigned) d)regional
> > registration e) regional registration with FA set to zero (in case FA does
> > not advertise itself).
> >
> > Therefore we think that using different message types to separate the
> > handling of the home and the regional registration messages would make it
> > simpler for the FA:s. I can give you one example: The MN is allowed to try
> > to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
> > that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does not
> > know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
> > that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old GFA is
> > the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
> > registration would fail.
> >
> > /Annika
> >
> > At 22:35 2000-10-11 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:
> > >Charlie,
> > >
> > >
> > >1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out
> > requiring new messages, it is
> > >possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
> > >
> > >2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be where
> > the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e,
> in
> > one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there,
> in
> > the regional case
> > >it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if
> > more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
> > >
> > >3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new
> messages
> > are given below:
> > >
> > >                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
> > >                            between regional registrations and home
> > >                            registrations, because when it uses
> > >                            regional registration, the nounces are not
> > >                            synchronized with its home agent;
> > >
> > >                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
> > >                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
> > >                            registration) or to signify the use of an
> > >                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
> > >                            regional registration).
> > >
> > >Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
> > >
> > >more comments below:
> > >
> > >
> > >>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional
> > registration request/reply messages. I think
> > >>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
> > >>
> > >>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
> > >>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
> > >>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
> > >>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
> > >>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
> > >>making extensions to the existing messages would have
> > >>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
> > >>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
> > >
> > >Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
> > >an extension.
> > >
> > >
> > >>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
> > >>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
> > >>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
> > >>levels of hierarchy.
> > >
> > >don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
> > >
> > >moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the
> > home registration also.
> > >
> > >
> > >>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the
> > GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
> > >>> registrations.
> > >>
> > >>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home
> > registration.
> > >
> > >It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the
> > message and the extensions.
> > >
> > >
> > >>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft
> > (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
> > >>
> > >>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've
> alluded
> > to already.
> > >>
> > >>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions.
> Using
> > existing messages with extensions makes
> > >>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing
> > anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
> > >>
> > >>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the
> > implementation
> > >>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not
> have
> > to build
> > >>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have
> > mentioned already,
> > >>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I
> > think that the
> > >
> > >could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Gopal
> > >
> >


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sat Oct 21 18:20:22 2000
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From: Vijay Devarapalli <vijayd@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupport in
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Hi Charlie.

see my comments below


"Charles E. Perkins" wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I would like to mandate (i.e., MUST) the simplest possible
> strategy, to wit:
>
> When calculating the AH checksum, the mobile node performs
> the calculation with all data in place.  This means that,
> during the calculation, the Care-of Address might be in the
> Source IP address field of the IPv6 header, and then the home
> address would be in the Home Address destination option.
>
> Of course, this also means that the node receiving a packet
> with AH will have to follow the same algorithm, which
> basically just means not moving data fields at all.
> The only complication comes when it is necessary to look up
> the appropriate security association for processing either
> AH or ESP.  That lookup, typically indexed by the
> Source IP address of the IPv6 header, would instead have
> to be indexed by the home address in the Home Address
> destination option.  Since that destination option would
> occur in the packet _before_ the security header,
> processing is still very simple.
>

This makes the implementation of the ip_input function difficult for those
packets which carry the Home Address option before the AH. In particular, I
wouldnt know when to exactly replace the CoA with the Home address in the
source of the packet.

Consider the case where a CN/Home Agent receives a BU. The packet could be
like this

        IPv6 header, HA dest hdr, AH, BU dest hdr, TCP hdr.

The ip_input() function most often is a protocol switch which just calls the
corresponding protocol  handler for each protocol header that it encounters.
I need to replace the CoA with home address before I give it to the module
which handles TCP. I have three options

1. do the switch in the BU handling function
2. do the switch in ip_input function before calling the upper layer
functions
3. do the switch in the tcp module.

Consider another case where the packet is

       IPv6 header, HA dest hdr, ICMP

Now I have two options

1. do the switch in ip_input function before calling the upper layer
functions
2. do the switch in the ICMP module

Yet another case could be

       IPv6 hdr, HA dest hdr, Frag hdr, AH, BU, ICMP

In this case I would have to do the switch before the frag header is
processed. Now both the AH module and the BU handler need to be aware for
this.

Therefore the best and the easiest thing to do would be do the switch when
the HA dest hdr is processed. Then AH proceeds normally. The BU handler alone
needs to know where the CoA is stored (could be a pointer / in the HA dest
hdr after the switch)

I would like to propose the following.

On the Mobile Node side

Before AH checksum calculation switch the contents of the source address of
the packet and the Home Address dest option (the source address would be CoA
already). This way the CoA is also protected. This switch is not a big deal
because, most oftenAH implementation would require creating another text
string or mbuf(with mutable fields zeroed out). The checksum is calculated on
this text string. The original mbuf is left intact.

On the CN / Home Agent side

1. Process IPv6 header.
2. Process Home Address option. Do the switch. Store the CoA in the Home
Address option. Maybe use a bit to indicate this.
3. Process AH naturally. Security Association is chosen based on the source
address of the packet.
4. Process BU. Only this module needs to know that the CoA is store in the
Home Address option.
5. Call each protocol handler.

In my opinion, the above makes things easy to implement. Comments are
welcome.

Regards
Vijay


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sun Oct 22 11:34:58 2000
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Date:         Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:32:22 -0500
Reply-To: Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySup
              port in
              IPv6"draft]
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

------_=_NextPart_001_01C03C3D.457067C0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


> Consider the case where a CN/Home Agent receives a BU. The packet could be
> like this
>
>         IPv6 header, HA dest hdr, AH, BU dest hdr, TCP hdr.
[[gm]]  consider this:

        IPv6 header, HA dest hder, AH, BU dest hdr, SIP Invite

How does one know whether the authenitication parameters related to the
binding update are the same as the parameters related to the SIP Invite or
for that matter - any application?

Are we making some assumptions here about business models that perhaps we
shouldn't?

Is it possible to have more than one AH header with different checksum
boundaries?



------_=_NextPart_001_01C03C3D.457067C0
Content-type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of =
&quot;MobilitySupport  in IPv6&quot;draft]</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Consider the case where a CN/Home =
Agent receives a BU. The packet could be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">like this</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv6 header, =
HA dest hdr, AH, BU dest hdr, TCP hdr.</FONT>
<BR><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[[gm]]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> consider this:</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">IPv6 header, HA dest hder, AH, BU dest hdr, SIP =
Invite</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">How does one know =
whether the authenitication parameters related to the binding update =
are the same as the parameters related to the SIP Invite or for that =
matter - any application? </FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Are we making some =
assumptions here about business models that perhaps we shouldn't? =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Is it possible to =
have more than one AH header with different checksum boundaries?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C03C3D.457067C0--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 03:38:36 2000
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Reply-To: Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@ENST-BRETAGNE.FR>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySup
              port in
              IPv6"draft]
X-To:         Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:32:22 CDT. 
              <36FA02BD7083D411BC9E0000F8073E438CEF17@crchy271.us.nortel.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

           IPv6 header, HA dest hder, AH, BU dest hdr, SIP Invite

   How does one know whether the authenitication parameters related to the
   binding update are the same as the parameters related to the SIP Invite or
   for that matter - any application?

   Are we making some assumptions here about business models that perhaps we
   shouldn't?

   Is it possible to have more than one AH header with different checksum
   boundaries?

=> I don't understand the last statement (AH covers the whole packet)
then I don't understand the issue here...

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 04:56:38 2000
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From: Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
              Call-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Tom_K._Weckstr=F6m=22?=" <tweckstr@CC.HUT.FI>
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Hi Tom,

see comments below.

At 23:55 2000-10-21 +0300, Tom K. Weckström wrote:
>Hi,
>
>In my opinion, additional messages makes the protocol partly clearer,
>but partly more complex.
>
>Here are my questions (please point me to the appropriate messages, if
>these questions have already been discussed :)
>
>- Is it possible/needed that a FA does not know the GFA or GFAs above
>it?
>I think FAs and GFAs should have trust relationships = knowledge of
>each other.


Yes, FA:s and GFA:s need to know about each other. That is also stated in
the draft (well, indirectly, since it says that they need to have
established security associations between them).

>
>- Why do we need to add intelligence to the mobile node?
>Having a totally transparent hierarchy is possible. The MN would speak
>standard RFC2002 MIP and would still get the best efficiency in
>registrations through the regionalized handoffs. By defining new
>messages we do add intelligence to MN. It must know what kind of
>registrations to send.
>

Because, as I said in my last mail, the MN needs to know if the
registration request will be processed in the home or in the visited domain
to know which security association and replay protection to use. We didn't
find any way to get around this. But another goal is to support RFC2002
MN:s also. In this draft, they don't get the benefits of the regional
registrations, but they will work.

/Annika

>And my totally subjective opinion:
>  ;-)
>Despite the lively discussion about regionalized handoffs etc., I
>still have not seen many transparent, fast and *implemented*
>approaches. If the ideas in the drafts have been implemented, please
>provide the community some links to the material. Dynamics  - HUT
>Mobile IP has been rocking for 1.5 years now. Dynamics is transparent
>to the Mobile Node and still provides fast handoffs.
>
>Should we write a competing draft? ;-) We didn't do it in the first
>place because we felt it would just slow down the fast handoff design
>process. Unfortunately the process has been unbelievably slow. I am
>really looking forward to a solution in this issue.
>
>Regards,
>        Tom
>
>--
>        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
>                                Helsinki University of Technology
>                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi
>
>http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/
>
>
>Satwant Kaur wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am implementing the Regional Registration
>> (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt), and I agree with Annika that it is
>> important for FA and GFA to be able to make the distinction between the
Home
>> Registration Request (type 1) and Regional Registration Request (type 2)
>> messages. Furthermore, the mobility Agents should also be able to make a
>> distinction between Registration Reply (type 3) and Regional registration
>> reply (type 4).
>>
>> Another case where a similar problem would arise:
>>
>> Suppose MN wants to do Home Registration with a FA who does not advertise
>> itself. MN wants to be assigned a GFA and so it sends a Home Registration
>> Request (type 1) with careof field as 0, and HA address in the Home Agent
>> field.
>>
>> Now, if we do not have additional message types to be able to make a
>> distinction between type 1 and type 2 Registration requests, the FA will
>> have no way of knowing if (1) It is a home Registration with MN asking
to be
>> assigned a GFA for home Registration, or (2) It is a Regional Registration
>> (with FA set to 0, since FA did not advertise itself).
>>
>> FA can (mis)interpret it as type 2 message. It will incorrectly assume that
>> the HA address is really the GFA that the MN wants to register with. It
will
>> then forward the request to its HA address under the assumption it is
really
>> the GFA, instead of assigning a GFA address, and forwarding the
registration
>> to the assigned GFA.
>>
>> The above problem arose since FA reads the registration requests sent by
MN,
>> and forwards them to GFA. In the absence of the message type that would
>> enable FA to make a distinction between home registration request (type 1)
>> and regional registration request (type 2), the FA does not know where to
>> send the request to. The GFA address lies in the Home Agent field in
case of
>> type 2 and in the careof field in case of type 1 message. If the additional
>> type 2 message is not there, FA cannot make the distinction between Home Vs
>> Regional Registration Request.
>>
>> Similar problems will arise at GFA level, since when the GFA reads the
>> Registration Requests sent out by FA, and either forwards them to HA (in
>> case of Home Registration) or sends the reply back to FA (in case of
>> Regional Registration). If the type 2 message type is not there, GFA cannot
>> make the distinction between Home and Regional Registration. And it would
>> not know whether to send it forward to HA, or to send reply back to FA.
>>
>> Similar problems will also arise on the way back for Registration Reply
>> messages at FA and GFA, if type 4 is not present.
>>
>> Apart from the problems in the above special cases, I also do not favor
>> using anything other than message types to understand what type of
>> registration /registration reply it is. The reason is if one uses some
other
>> characteristics of the packets (in this case, the extensions) other than
its
>> "type" to identify the type of packets, it is against the spirit of
>> assigning the right job to the right field. It may also give us grief down
>> the road as it would restrict our freedom to use extensions in different
and
>> more creative ways in future.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Annika Jonsson" <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
>> To: <MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com>
>> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
>> Call -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
>>
>> > Hi Gopal,
>> >
>> > as Charlie say's, we have discussed this a lot. Here are some of our
>> > reasoning. The home and the regional registrations will always differ
>> > because of different replay protection and security associations for the
>> > authentication extensions. Furthermore, the FA has to be able to handle
>> > many different cases: a) normal RFC2002 registration b) home registration
>> > through GFA (to prepare for regional registrations) c) home registration
>> > with GFA set to zero (to ask that a GFA be assigned) d)regional
>> > registration e) regional registration with FA set to zero (in case FA
does
>> > not advertise itself).
>> >
>> > Therefore we think that using different message types to separate the
>> > handling of the home and the regional registration messages would make it
>> > simpler for the FA:s. I can give you one example: The MN is allowed to
try
>> > to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
>> > that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does
not
>> > know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
>> > that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old
GFA is
>> > the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
>> > registration would fail.
>> >
>> > /Annika
>> >
>> > At 22:35 2000-10-11 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:
>> > >Charlie,
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out
>> > requiring new messages, it is
>> > >possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
>> > >
>> > >2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be
where
>> > the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e,
>> in
>> > one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there,
>> in
>> > the regional case
>> > >it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if
>> > more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
>> > >
>> > >3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new
>> messages
>> > are given below:
>> > >
>> > >                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
>> > >                            between regional registrations and home
>> > >                            registrations, because when it uses
>> > >                            regional registration, the nounces are not
>> > >                            synchronized with its home agent;
>> > >
>> > >                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
>> > >                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
>> > >                            registration) or to signify the use of an
>> > >                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
>> > >                            regional registration).
>> > >
>> > >Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
>> > >
>> > >more comments below:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional
>> > registration request/reply messages. I think
>> > >>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
>> > >>
>> > >>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
>> > >>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
>> > >>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
>> > >>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
>> > >>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
>> > >>making extensions to the existing messages would have
>> > >>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
>> > >>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
>> > >
>> > >Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
>> > >an extension.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
>> > >>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
>> > >>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
>> > >>levels of hierarchy.
>> > >
>> > >don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
>> > >
>> > >moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the
>> > home registration also.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the
>> > GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
>> > >>> registrations.
>> > >>
>> > >>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home
>> > registration.
>> > >
>> > >It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the
>> > message and the extensions.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft
>> > (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
>> > >>
>> > >>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've
>> alluded
>> > to already.
>> > >>
>> > >>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions.
>> Using
>> > existing messages with extensions makes
>> > >>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing
>> > anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
>> > >>
>> > >>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the
>> > implementation
>> > >>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not
>> have
>> > to build
>> > >>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have
>> > mentioned already,
>> > >>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I
>> > think that the
>> > >
>> > >could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Regards,
>> > >Gopal
>> > >
>> >
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 11:08:06 2000
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From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupport
              inIPv6"draft]
X-To:         Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Glenn,

You asked:

> [[gm]]  consider this:
>
>         IPv6 header, HA dest hder, AH, BU dest hdr, SIP Invite
>
> How does one know whether the authenitication parameters related to the
> binding update are the same as the parameters related to the SIP Invite or for
> that matter - any application?

AH is for _network layer_ binding.

It does not give any assurance that application is authorized
to offer the services or interactions peculiar to that application.
If there is a way for an application to get installed on a host
that it should not be running on, then that application _can_
"subvert" the network-layer security infrastructure.

Does this answer your question?

> Are we making some assumptions here about business models that perhaps we
> shouldn't?

The distance between business models and network-layer security
is farther than I can usefully comprehend.

> Is it possible to have more than one AH header with different checksum
> boundaries?

Not as far as I know.


Regards,
Charlie P.


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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySup
              port
              inIPv6"draft]
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Hi Charlie,

See below:

> > [[gm]]  consider this:
> >
> >         IPv6 header, HA dest hder, AH, BU dest hdr, SIP Invite
> >
> > How does one know whether the authenitication parameters related to the
> > binding update are the same as the parameters related to the SIP Invite
> or for
> > that matter - any application?
>
> AH is for _network layer_ binding.
>
> It does not give any assurance that application is authorized
> to offer the services or interactions peculiar to that application.
> If there is a way for an application to get installed on a host
> that it should not be running on, then that application _can_
> "subvert" the network-layer security infrastructure.
>
> Does this answer your question?
[[gm]]
What I thinking was that users may have more than one identity and therefore
credentials for authorization. One set of credentials may relate to service
for an application and the other relate to credentials for network layer
access which I believe node mobility should be an integral part of.

> > Are we making some assumptions here about business models that perhaps
> we
> > shouldn't?
>
> The distance between business models and network-layer security
> is farther than I can usefully comprehend.
[[gm]]
The point is simple. I don't think we want to couple ownership and control
of applications to the network access ownership in the IETF.

> > Is it possible to have more than one AH header with different checksum
> > boundaries?
>
> Not as far as I know.
[[gm]]
I think we might need something like this if we plan on sending application
packets that need to be authorized using the credentials from one identity
in the same packet as a binding update that might need authorization using
the credentials from another identity.

A simple IF statement might work. i.e. if the application part needs
authorization using a separate identity then we have to send separate
packets?


> Regards,
> Charlie P.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C03D08.7389D760
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>RE: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of =
&quot;MobilitySupport  inIPv6&quot;draft]</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Charlie,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">See below:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; [[gm]]&nbsp; consider =
this:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
IPv6 header, HA dest hder, AH, BU dest hdr, SIP Invite</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; How does one know whether the =
authenitication parameters related to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; binding update are the same as =
the parameters related to the SIP Invite or for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; that matter - any =
application?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">AH is for _network layer_ =
binding.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It does not give any assurance that =
application is authorized</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to offer the services or interactions =
peculiar to that application.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If there is a way for an application =
to get installed on a host</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that it should not be running on, =
then that application _can_</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot;subvert&quot; the network-layer =
security infrastructure.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Does this answer your question?</FONT>
<BR><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[[gm]]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What I thinking was =
that users may have more than one identity and therefore credentials =
for authorization. One set of credentials may relate to service for an =
application and the other relate to credentials for network layer =
access which I believe node mobility should be an integral part =
of.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Are we making some assumptions =
here about business models that perhaps we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; shouldn't?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The distance between business models =
and network-layer security</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">is farther than I can usefully =
comprehend.</FONT>
<BR><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[[gm]]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The point is =
simple. I don't think we want to couple ownership and control of =
applications to the network access ownership in the IETF.</FONT> </P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Is it possible to have more than =
one AH header with different checksum</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; boundaries?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Not as far as I know.</FONT>
<BR><B><I><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">[[gm]]</FONT></I></B><I></I>&nbsp;<FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I think we might =
need something like this if we plan on sending application packets that =
need to be authorized using the credentials from one identity in the =
same packet as a binding update that might need authorization using the =
credentials from another identity.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A simple IF =
statement might work. i.e. if the application part needs authorization =
using a separate identity then we have to send separate =
packets?</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Charlie P.</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C03D08.7389D760--


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupportinIPv6"draft]
X-To:         Glenn Morrow <gmorrow@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Glenn,

What I think you want can _possibly_ be done using AH,
if the operating system is sufficiently secure, and
the other communication endpoint sufficiently restriced
in the services it is configured to offer.

But it's definitely NOT an issue for Mobile IP, so I
reckon we ought to take it offline.  I am pretty sure
that you can find megabytes of good technical discussion
on this issue if you look at the IPsec mailing list
archives.

Regards,
Charlie P.




> Glenn Morrow wrote:
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> See below:
>
> > [[gm]]  consider this:
> >
> >         IPv6 header, HA dest hder, AH, BU dest hdr, SIP Invite
> >
> > How does one know whether the authenitication parameters related to the
> > binding update are the same as the parameters related to the SIP Invite or
> for
> > that matter - any application?
>
> AH is for _network layer_ binding.
>
> It does not give any assurance that application is authorized
> to offer the services or interactions peculiar to that application.
> If there is a way for an application to get installed on a host
> that it should not be running on, then that application _can_
> "subvert" the network-layer security infrastructure.
>
> Does this answer your question?
> [[gm]]
> What I thinking was that users may have more than one identity and therefore
> credentials for authorization. One set of credentials may relate to service
> for an application and the other relate to credentials for network layer
> access which I believe node mobility should be an integral part of.
>
> > Are we making some assumptions here about business models that perhaps we
> > shouldn't?
>
> The distance between business models and network-layer security
> is farther than I can usefully comprehend.
> [[gm]]
> The point is simple. I don't think we want to couple ownership and control of
> applications to the network access ownership in the IETF.
>
> > Is it possible to have more than one AH header with different checksum
> > boundaries?
>
> Not as far as I know.
> [[gm]]
> I think we might need something like this if we plan on sending application
> packets that need to be authorized using the credentials from one identity in
> the same packet as a binding update that might need authorization using the
> credentials from another identity.
>
> A simple IF statement might work. i.e. if the application part needs
> authorization using a separate identity then we have to send separate packets?
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.


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From: Sotiris Nikoletseas <nikole@cti.gr>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Deadline approaching -- IPDPS Workshop on Mobile
              Computing
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Please accept my apologies if you receive multiple
copies of this message.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
PRELIMINARY CALL FOR PAPERS
1st  International Workshop on
Parallel and Distributed Computing Issues in Wireless Networks and Mobile
Computing
IPDPS 2001 WORKSHOPS
Hyatt Regency San Francisco April 23-27, 2001
URLs:
http://www.ipdps.org
http://www.computing.edu.au/~kumar/ipdpswpim.html
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

General Chair
Sajal K. Das, The University of Texas at Arlington, USA
Program  Co-Chairs
Mohan Kumar, Curtin University of Technology, Perth, Australia and The
University of
Texas at Arlington, USA
Paul Spirakis, Computer Technology Institute, Patras, Greece
*********************************************************
Publicity Co-Chairs
Kwan-Wu Chin, Motorola, Sydney, Australia
Sotiris Nikoletseas, Computer Technology Institute, Patras, Greece
*********************************************************
IMPORTANT DATES:
October 30, 2000            Workshop Paper Due
December 10, 2000       Notification of Acceptance/Rejection
January 15, 2001            Camera-Ready Paper Due

Mobile computing has emerged as an important area of computing today as we
move to the
next millennium. This has been made possible due to the tremendous and
continued growth
of wireless communications and network technology over the past decade,
providing
infrastructures for "anytime anywhere" access to distributed computing
systems and
information repositories. The mobility of users offers new challenges to
seamless
connectivity in a distributed, heterogeneous network of wireline and
wireless
components.  Several techniques and algorithms developed by the parallel and
distributed
computing community can be applied to solve typical wireless networks and
mobile
computing: routing, scheduling, load balancing, cache coherence, information
access, and
QoS provisioning problems. The objective of this workshop is to bring
together
technologists and researchers of international reputation in the areas of
Parallel and
Distributed Computing and Wireless Networks and Mobile Computing in order to
have a
forum for discussions, exchange of ideas and presentations.
Authors are invited to submit original unpublished manuscripts for this
workshop.
Accepted papers will be published in the proceedings (by IEEE CS Press) of
the IPDPS
workshops.

Topics of interest include (but are not limited to):
* Processor Architectures for Mobile and Wearable Computers
* Wireless networks in grid computing applications
* Routing in adhoc networks
* Parallel and distributed techniques for solving problems in mobile
computing
* Distributed techniques for QoS Provisioning in wireless networks
* Distributed caches in mobile computing environments
* Caching, prefetching, pushcaching and replication to enhance information
access in
wireless networks
* Distributed wireless sensor networks
* Routing and location independent information access
* Scheduling issues in mobile computing
* Parallel/distributed algorithms for mobile computing systems
* Distributed Wireless multimedia systems
* Active Networks


SUBMISSION GUIDELINES:
Authors are invited to submit summaries of original unpublished research to
one of the
Workshop Chairs. All submissions will be reviewed by referees. Summaries
should not
exceed ten  (10) single-spaced pages of text using 12-point size type on 8.5
x 11 inch
pages. References, figures, tables, etc. may be included in addition to the
ten pages of
text. The summary should include an abstract of approximately 100 words.
The
corresponding author is requested to include in a cover letter: (1) complete
postal
address; (2) email address; and (3) Phone/fax numbers.

****************************************************************************
***************

Submissions may be by hard copy or by email.  Electronic submissions are
preferred and
should be sent to kumar@cs.curtin.edu.au or spirakis@cti.gr. Authors should
submit the
cover page in ASCII form followed by a PostScript (level 2) file and make
sure that it
will print on a PostScript printer that uses 8.5 x 11 inch (US letter size)
paper.  For
hard copy submissions, authors should submit seven (7) hard copies of their
paper along
with the cover letter to Mohan Kumar or Paul Spirakis.
All manuscripts will be reviewed.  Manuscripts   must be received by October
30, 2000.
Submissions received after the due date or exceeding the length    limit may
not be
considered. Notification of review decisions will be mailed by December 10,
2000.
Camera-ready papers are due January 15, 2001.  Proceedings will be available
at the
Conference.
Workshop Program Co-Chairs
Mohan Kumar
School of Computer Science
Curtin University of Technology
GPO Box U 1987, Perth WA 1987 AUSTRALIA
Fax: +61 8 9266 2819 E-mail: kumar@cs.curtin.edu.au

Paul Spirakis
Director and Senior Researcher
Computer Technology Institute
61 Riga Fereou Str., 26221 Patras, Greece  Patras, Greece
Fax: +30 61 993 973, +30 61 222086 E-mail: spirakis@cti.gr
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Technical Program Committee
Somprakash Bandopadhyay, PWC Global, Calcutta,  India
Stefano Basagni, University of Texas at Dallas, USA
Maurizio Bonuccelli University of Pisa, Italy
Azzedine Boukerche, University of North Texas, USA
Luca Cardelli, Microsoft Research, Cambridge, UK
Kwan-Wu Chin, Motorola Australia
Kee Chaing Chua, National University of Singapore
Marco Conti, Italian National Research Council, Italy
Samir Das, University of Cincinatti, USA
Xiaohua Jia, City University of Hong Kong
Jan van Leeuwen University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
John Lui, The Chinese University of Hong Kong
Marios Mavronicolas, University of Cyprus, Cyprus
Sotiris Nikoletseas, Computer Technology Institute, Greece
Cristina Pinnotti, Italian National Research Council
Don Sannella  University of Edinburgh, Scotland
Martha Steenstrup, BBN Technologies, USA
Mukesh Singhal, Ohio State University, USA
Nitin Vaidya, Texas A&M University, USA
Jie Wu, Florida Atlantic University, USA
Yongbing Zhang  University of Tsukuba, Japan
Albert Zomaya University of Western Australia, Perth Australia
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 12:56:31 2000
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Message-ID:  <DDEMJGLAIECGPHOJGEOKGEPBCAAA.sschmid@comp.lancs.ac.uk>
Date:         Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:51:42 +0100
Reply-To: Stefan Schmid <sschmid@comp.lancs.ac.uk>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Stefan Schmid <sschmid@comp.lancs.ac.uk>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySupport in IPv6" draft
X-To:         vijayd@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <39F213DF.B2223DF7@iprg.nokia.com>
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> On the Mobile Node side
>
> Before AH checksum calculation switch the contents of the source
> address of
> the packet and the Home Address dest option (the source address
> would be CoA
> already). This way the CoA is also protected.

  It seems you aggree with Charlie in that the CoA should be used for the AH
calculation. Or did I get you wrong?

> On the CN / Home Agent side
>
> 1. Process IPv6 header.
> 2. Process Home Address option. Do the switch. Store the CoA in the Home
> Address option. Maybe use a bit to indicate this.
> 3. Process AH naturally. Security Association is chosen based on
> the source address of the packet.

  If so, this does not make sense to me. If you do the "switch" (swapping
CoA with HA) before the AH processing, you could not process the AH
naturally (which would assume the CoA to be in the IPv6 SrcAddr field).

  Anyway, I agree with you that the best place to do the "switch" is when
the Home Address option is processed. However, this implies that the AH
calculation needs to use the CoA in the Home Address Option as IPv6 SrcAddr.
This shouldn't be a problem though.

> 4. Process BU. Only this module needs to know that the CoA is store in the
> Home Address option.
> 5. Call each protocol handler.

Regards,

- Stefan


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 13:14:54 2000
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Reply-To: Vijay Devarapalli <vijayd@iprg.nokia.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Vijay Devarapalli <vijayd@iprg.nokia.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySupport in IPv6" draft
X-To:         Stefan Schmid <sschmid@comp.lancs.ac.uk>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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hi Stefan,

see my comments below

Stefan Schmid wrote:

> > On the Mobile Node side
> >
> > Before AH checksum calculation switch the contents of the source
> > address of
> > the packet and the Home Address dest option (the source address
> > would be CoA
> > already). This way the CoA is also protected.
>
>   It seems you aggree with Charlie in that the CoA should be used for the AH
> calculation. Or did I get you wrong?
>

Well, it is a bit different. The CoA is protected by AH. But the AH module uses
the IPv6 source address (after the switch, the source address contains the Home
address) for choosing the security association.


>  On the CN / Home Agent side
> >
> > 1. Process IPv6 header.
> > 2. Process Home Address option. Do the switch. Store the CoA in the Home
> > Address option. Maybe use a bit to indicate this.
> > 3. Process AH naturally. Security Association is chosen based on
> > the source address of the packet.
>
>   If so, this does not make sense to me. If you do the "switch" (swapping
> CoA with HA) before the AH processing, you could not process the AH
> naturally (which would assume the CoA to be in the IPv6 SrcAddr field).
>

The AH module need not assume anything. It can just go ahead, choose the
security association based on the IPv6 source address and calculate the
checksum over the packet. It need not bother about the contents in the Home
Address destination option.

Hope that clarifies things a bit

Regards
Vijay


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 13:26:23 2000
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Reply-To: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of "MobilitySupport in IPv6" draft
X-To:         Stefan Schmid <sschmid@comp.lancs.ac.uk>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Stefan,

> > Before AH checksum calculation switch the contents of the source
> > address of
> > the packet and the Home Address dest option (the source address
> > would be CoA
> > already). This way the CoA is also protected.
>
>   It seems you aggree with Charlie in that the CoA should be used for the AH
> calculation. Or did I get you wrong?

If you mean that the care-of address should be part of the data
included as input to the AH calculation, I agree.

However, the security association used to perform the calculation
MUST be indexed by the mobile node's home address.

> > On the CN / Home Agent side
> >
> > 1. Process IPv6 header.
> > 2. Process Home Address option. Do the switch. Store the CoA in the Home
> > Address option. Maybe use a bit to indicate this.
> > 3. Process AH naturally. Security Association is chosen based on
> > the source address of the packet.
>
>   If so, this does not make sense to me. If you do the "switch" (swapping
> CoA with HA) before the AH processing, you could not process the AH
> naturally (which would assume the CoA to be in the IPv6 SrcAddr field).

This procedure has the home address in the ip6_src address field
before AH processing begins.  So, AH processing is natural.

>   Anyway, I agree with you that the best place to do the "switch" is when
> the Home Address option is processed. However, this implies that the AH
> calculation needs to use the CoA in the Home Address Option as IPv6 SrcAddr.
> This shouldn't be a problem though.

It is a problem, because then the security association would have to be
renegotiated every time the mobile node moves to a new care-of address.


Regards,
Charlie P.


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Ron Young <ronyoung@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Testing something
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

------_=_NextPart_001_01C03D11.366B8B90
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Just letting everyone know that I am testing a semi-moderated setting on our
mailing list.  This setting allows anyone subscribed to the list to post,
but anyone who is not subscribed must have their post approved by the editor
(me).  We'll see how well this works.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Young   ronyoung@nortelnetworks.com   http://www.nortelnetworks.com/

  You can't spell Nortel without Ron; of course, you can't spell moron
                           without Ron either.


------_=_NextPart_001_01C03D11.366B8B90
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2652.35">
<TITLE>Testing something</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Just letting everyone know that I am testing a =
semi-moderated setting on our mailing list.&nbsp; This setting allows =
anyone subscribed to the list to post, but anyone who is not subscribed =
must have their post approved by the editor (me).&nbsp; We'll see how =
well this works.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=
---------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ron Young&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ronyoung@nortelnetworks.com&nbsp;&nbsp; <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.nortelnetworks.com/" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.nortelnetworks.com/</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; You can't spell Nortel without Ron; of =
course, you can't spell moron</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; without Ron either.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C03D11.366B8B90--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 13:38:27 2000
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Date:         Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:32:55 -0700
Reply-To: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupport in
              IPv6"draft]
X-To:         Vijay Devarapalli <vijayd@iprg.nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello folks,

I understand better now the implementation difficulties
which are caused by leaving the care-of address in the
IPv6 header.

So, I agree with you that we should specify the behavior
you have suggested below, which also is much closer to the
spirit of the existing Internet Draft specification.

I'll use the word "exchange" instead of "switch", since
the latter was misinterpreted in at least one implementation
effort.

I hope this is acceptable, and I am also looking for additional
comments before the next revision is completed.

Regards,
Charlie P.



Vijay Devarapalli wrote:
>
> Hi Charlie.
>
> see my comments below
>
> "Charles E. Perkins" wrote:
>
> > Hello folks,
> >
> > I would like to mandate (i.e., MUST) the simplest possible
> > strategy, to wit:
> >
> > When calculating the AH checksum, the mobile node performs
> > the calculation with all data in place.  This means that,
> > during the calculation, the Care-of Address might be in the
> > Source IP address field of the IPv6 header, and then the home
> > address would be in the Home Address destination option.
> >
> > Of course, this also means that the node receiving a packet
> > with AH will have to follow the same algorithm, which
> > basically just means not moving data fields at all.
> > The only complication comes when it is necessary to look up
> > the appropriate security association for processing either
> > AH or ESP.  That lookup, typically indexed by the
> > Source IP address of the IPv6 header, would instead have
> > to be indexed by the home address in the Home Address
> > destination option.  Since that destination option would
> > occur in the packet _before_ the security header,
> > processing is still very simple.
> >
>
> This makes the implementation of the ip_input function difficult for those
> packets which carry the Home Address option before the AH. In particular, I
> wouldnt know when to exactly replace the CoA with the Home address in the
> source of the packet.
>
> Consider the case where a CN/Home Agent receives a BU. The packet could be
> like this
>
>         IPv6 header, HA dest hdr, AH, BU dest hdr, TCP hdr.
>
> The ip_input() function most often is a protocol switch which just calls the
> corresponding protocol  handler for each protocol header that it encounters.
> I need to replace the CoA with home address before I give it to the module
> which handles TCP. I have three options
>
> 1. do the switch in the BU handling function
> 2. do the switch in ip_input function before calling the upper layer
> functions
> 3. do the switch in the tcp module.
>
> Consider another case where the packet is
>
>        IPv6 header, HA dest hdr, ICMP
>
> Now I have two options
>
> 1. do the switch in ip_input function before calling the upper layer
> functions
> 2. do the switch in the ICMP module
>
> Yet another case could be
>
>        IPv6 hdr, HA dest hdr, Frag hdr, AH, BU, ICMP
>
> In this case I would have to do the switch before the frag header is
> processed. Now both the AH module and the BU handler need to be aware for
> this.
>
> Therefore the best and the easiest thing to do would be do the switch when
> the HA dest hdr is processed. Then AH proceeds normally. The BU handler alone
> needs to know where the CoA is stored (could be a pointer / in the HA dest
> hdr after the switch)
>
> I would like to propose the following.
>
> On the Mobile Node side
>
> Before AH checksum calculation switch the contents of the source address of
> the packet and the Home Address dest option (the source address would be CoA
> already). This way the CoA is also protected. This switch is not a big deal
> because, most oftenAH implementation would require creating another text
> string or mbuf(with mutable fields zeroed out). The checksum is calculated on
> this text string. The original mbuf is left intact.
>
> On the CN / Home Agent side
>
> 1. Process IPv6 header.
> 2. Process Home Address option. Do the switch. Store the CoA in the Home
> Address option. Maybe use a bit to indicate this.
> 3. Process AH naturally. Security Association is chosen based on the source
> address of the packet.
> 4. Process BU. Only this module needs to know that the CoA is store in the
> Home Address option.
> 5. Call each protocol handler.
>
> In my opinion, the above makes things easy to implement. Comments are
> welcome.
>
> Regards
> Vijay


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 13:57:56 2000
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> If you mean that the care-of address should be part of the data
> included as input to the AH calculation, I agree.

  Yep, that's what I meant.

> However, the security association used to perform the calculation
> MUST be indexed by the mobile node's home address.

  Absolutely ... But the address used for the selection of the security
association is "independent" of the address used in the AH calculation.
Therefore using the CoA in the AH calculation and the Home Address for the
SA selection is no problem.

- Stefan


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From: "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@cc.hut.fi>
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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG
              LastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
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Annika

Thanks for your reply.
I am working on a more detailed "review" on the last call draft.
I am sorry for waking up so late to this issue.

I discovered the 'hidden' assumption of RFAs and their GFA knowing
abouit each other from the draft. :-)

I will check the security association issue more closely.
I am not completely convinced that there needs to be a separate
message type for different uses of security associations.
Why couldn't the FAs automatically consider the registration as a home
reg if there is not acceptable sec association used for FA-MN
authentication?

I will send my comment later.
Hopefully not too late. :-/
When does the last call end?

Regards,
        Tom


Annika Jonsson wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> see comments below.
>
> At 23:55 2000-10-21 +0300, Tom K. Weckström wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >In my opinion, additional messages makes the protocol partly clearer,
> >but partly more complex.
> >
> >Here are my questions (please point me to the appropriate messages, if
> >these questions have already been discussed :)
> >
> >- Is it possible/needed that a FA does not know the GFA or GFAs above
> >it?
> >I think FAs and GFAs should have trust relationships = knowledge of
> >each other.
>
> Yes, FA:s and GFA:s need to know about each other. That is also stated in
> the draft (well, indirectly, since it says that they need to have
> established security associations between them).
>
> >
> >- Why do we need to add intelligence to the mobile node?
> >Having a totally transparent hierarchy is possible. The MN would speak
> >standard RFC2002 MIP and would still get the best efficiency in
> >registrations through the regionalized handoffs. By defining new
> >messages we do add intelligence to MN. It must know what kind of
> >registrations to send.
> >
>
> Because, as I said in my last mail, the MN needs to know if the
> registration request will be processed in the home or in the visited domain
> to know which security association and replay protection to use. We didn't
> find any way to get around this. But another goal is to support RFC2002
> MN:s also. In this draft, they don't get the benefits of the regional
> registrations, but they will work.
>
> /Annika
>
> >And my totally subjective opinion:
> >  ;-)
> >Despite the lively discussion about regionalized handoffs etc., I
> >still have not seen many transparent, fast and *implemented*
> >approaches. If the ideas in the drafts have been implemented, please
> >provide the community some links to the material. Dynamics  - HUT
> >Mobile IP has been rocking for 1.5 years now. Dynamics is transparent
> >to the Mobile Node and still provides fast handoffs.
> >
> >Should we write a competing draft? ;-) We didn't do it in the first
> >place because we felt it would just slow down the fast handoff design
> >process. Unfortunately the process has been unbelievably slow. I am
> >really looking forward to a solution in this issue.
> >
> >Regards,
> >        Tom
> >
> >--
> >        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
> >                                Helsinki University of Technology
> >                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi
> >
> >http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/
> >
> >
> >Satwant Kaur wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I am implementing the Regional Registration
> >> (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt), and I agree with Annika that it is
> >> important for FA and GFA to be able to make the distinction between the
> Home
> >> Registration Request (type 1) and Regional Registration Request (type 2)
> >> messages. Furthermore, the mobility Agents should also be able to make a
> >> distinction between Registration Reply (type 3) and Regional registration
> >> reply (type 4).
> >>
> >> Another case where a similar problem would arise:
> >>
> >> Suppose MN wants to do Home Registration with a FA who does not advertise
> >> itself. MN wants to be assigned a GFA and so it sends a Home Registration
> >> Request (type 1) with careof field as 0, and HA address in the Home Agent
> >> field.
> >>
> >> Now, if we do not have additional message types to be able to make a
> >> distinction between type 1 and type 2 Registration requests, the FA will
> >> have no way of knowing if (1) It is a home Registration with MN asking
> to be
> >> assigned a GFA for home Registration, or (2) It is a Regional Registration
> >> (with FA set to 0, since FA did not advertise itself).
> >>
> >> FA can (mis)interpret it as type 2 message. It will incorrectly assume that
> >> the HA address is really the GFA that the MN wants to register with. It
> will
> >> then forward the request to its HA address under the assumption it is
> really
> >> the GFA, instead of assigning a GFA address, and forwarding the
> registration
> >> to the assigned GFA.
> >>
> >> The above problem arose since FA reads the registration requests sent by
> MN,
> >> and forwards them to GFA. In the absence of the message type that would
> >> enable FA to make a distinction between home registration request (type 1)
> >> and regional registration request (type 2), the FA does not know where to
> >> send the request to. The GFA address lies in the Home Agent field in
> case of
> >> type 2 and in the careof field in case of type 1 message. If the additional
> >> type 2 message is not there, FA cannot make the distinction between Home Vs
> >> Regional Registration Request.
> >>
> >> Similar problems will arise at GFA level, since when the GFA reads the
> >> Registration Requests sent out by FA, and either forwards them to HA (in
> >> case of Home Registration) or sends the reply back to FA (in case of
> >> Regional Registration). If the type 2 message type is not there, GFA cannot
> >> make the distinction between Home and Regional Registration. And it would
> >> not know whether to send it forward to HA, or to send reply back to FA.
> >>
> >> Similar problems will also arise on the way back for Registration Reply
> >> messages at FA and GFA, if type 4 is not present.
> >>
> >> Apart from the problems in the above special cases, I also do not favor
> >> using anything other than message types to understand what type of
> >> registration /registration reply it is. The reason is if one uses some
> other
> >> characteristics of the packets (in this case, the extensions) other than
> its
> >> "type" to identify the type of packets, it is against the spirit of
> >> assigning the right job to the right field. It may also give us grief down
> >> the road as it would restrict our freedom to use extensions in different
> and
> >> more creative ways in future.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Annika Jonsson" <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
> >> To: <MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:54 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
> >> Call -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
> >>
> >> > Hi Gopal,
> >> >
> >> > as Charlie say's, we have discussed this a lot. Here are some of our
> >> > reasoning. The home and the regional registrations will always differ
> >> > because of different replay protection and security associations for the
> >> > authentication extensions. Furthermore, the FA has to be able to handle
> >> > many different cases: a) normal RFC2002 registration b) home registration
> >> > through GFA (to prepare for regional registrations) c) home registration
> >> > with GFA set to zero (to ask that a GFA be assigned) d)regional
> >> > registration e) regional registration with FA set to zero (in case FA
> does
> >> > not advertise itself).
> >> >
> >> > Therefore we think that using different message types to separate the
> >> > handling of the home and the regional registration messages would make it
> >> > simpler for the FA:s. I can give you one example: The MN is allowed to
> try
> >> > to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
> >> > that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does
> not
> >> > know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
> >> > that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old
> GFA is
> >> > the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
> >> > registration would fail.
> >> >
> >> > /Annika
> >> >
> >> > At 22:35 2000-10-11 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:
> >> > >Charlie,
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out
> >> > requiring new messages, it is
> >> > >possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
> >> > >
> >> > >2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be
> where
> >> > the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e,
> >> in
> >> > one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there,
> >> in
> >> > the regional case
> >> > >it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if
> >> > more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
> >> > >
> >> > >3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new
> >> messages
> >> > are given below:
> >> > >
> >> > >                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
> >> > >                            between regional registrations and home
> >> > >                            registrations, because when it uses
> >> > >                            regional registration, the nounces are not
> >> > >                            synchronized with its home agent;
> >> > >
> >> > >                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
> >> > >                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
> >> > >                            registration) or to signify the use of an
> >> > >                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
> >> > >                            regional registration).
> >> > >
> >> > >Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
> >> > >
> >> > >more comments below:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional
> >> > registration request/reply messages. I think
> >> > >>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
> >> > >>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
> >> > >>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
> >> > >>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
> >> > >>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
> >> > >>making extensions to the existing messages would have
> >> > >>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
> >> > >>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
> >> > >
> >> > >Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
> >> > >an extension.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
> >> > >>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
> >> > >>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
> >> > >>levels of hierarchy.
> >> > >
> >> > >don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
> >> > >
> >> > >moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the
> >> > home registration also.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the
> >> > GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
> >> > >>> registrations.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home
> >> > registration.
> >> > >
> >> > >It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the
> >> > message and the extensions.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft
> >> > (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've
> >> alluded
> >> > to already.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions.
> >> Using
> >> > existing messages with extensions makes
> >> > >>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing
> >> > anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
> >> > >>
> >> > >>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the
> >> > implementation
> >> > >>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not
> >> have
> >> > to build
> >> > >>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have
> >> > mentioned already,
> >> > >>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I
> >> > think that the
> >> > >
> >> > >could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >Regards,
> >> > >Gopal
> >> > >
> >> >
> >

--
        Tom Weckström           tweckstr@cc.hut.fi
        Korppaanmäentie 16 B 14 Helsinki University of Technology
        00300 Helsinki          Department of Computer Science
        040-5642709             http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~tweckstr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 23 18:21:12 2000
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Hello Tom,

> I discovered the 'hidden' assumption of RFAs and their GFA knowing
> abouit each other from the draft. :-)

It wasn't intended to be hidden.  How can we make it more explicit?

> I will check the security association issue more closely.
> I am not completely convinced that there needs to be a separate
> message type for different uses of security associations.
> Why couldn't the FAs automatically consider the registration as a home
> reg if there is not acceptable sec association used for FA-MN
> authentication?

Because the mobile node is very likely to want to send a home
registration whenever it feels like renewing its current care-of
address, thereby increasing the lifetime.  We do not want to make
any implicit judgements about type of registration based on the
remaining registratoin lifetime.  That sounds like a really bad idea.

At any time, the mobile node should be allowed to send either a
home registration or a regional registration, subject only to the
constraint that the lifetime of the regional registration should not
exceed the lifetime of the regional registration.

> I will send my comment later.
> Hopefully not too late. :-/
> When does the last call end?

I think formally it might have ended a month ago, but the purpose
after all is to find out if the draft is ready for advancement.  So,
I think it's just fine to ask questions.  So far, the main comments
we have gotten about necessary changes is to put in more details
about running in the mode where the "first" foreign agent becomes
the GFA (what others have called "anchoring").

Other than that, I think we're ready to go depending on your
comments.

Regards,
Charlie P.

Annika Jonsson wrote:

> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > see comments below.
> >
> > At 23:55 2000-10-21 +0300, Tom K. Weckström wrote:
> > >Hi,
> > >
> > >In my opinion, additional messages makes the protocol partly clearer,
> > >but partly more complex.
> > >
> > >Here are my questions (please point me to the appropriate messages, if
> > >these questions have already been discussed :)
> > >
> > >- Is it possible/needed that a FA does not know the GFA or GFAs above
> > >it?
> > >I think FAs and GFAs should have trust relationships = knowledge of
> > >each other.
> >
> > Yes, FA:s and GFA:s need to know about each other. That is also stated in
> > the draft (well, indirectly, since it says that they need to have
> > established security associations between them).
> >
> > >
> > >- Why do we need to add intelligence to the mobile node?
> > >Having a totally transparent hierarchy is possible. The MN would speak
> > >standard RFC2002 MIP and would still get the best efficiency in
> > >registrations through the regionalized handoffs. By defining new
> > >messages we do add intelligence to MN. It must know what kind of
> > >registrations to send.
> > >
> >
> > Because, as I said in my last mail, the MN needs to know if the
> > registration request will be processed in the home or in the visited domain
> > to know which security association and replay protection to use. We didn't
> > find any way to get around this. But another goal is to support RFC2002
> > MN:s also. In this draft, they don't get the benefits of the regional
> > registrations, but they will work.
> >
> > /Annika
> >
> > >And my totally subjective opinion:
> > >  ;-)
> > >Despite the lively discussion about regionalized handoffs etc., I
> > >still have not seen many transparent, fast and *implemented*
> > >approaches. If the ideas in the drafts have been implemented, please
> > >provide the community some links to the material. Dynamics  - HUT
> > >Mobile IP has been rocking for 1.5 years now. Dynamics is transparent
> > >to the Mobile Node and still provides fast handoffs.
> > >
> > >Should we write a competing draft? ;-) We didn't do it in the first
> > >place because we felt it would just slow down the fast handoff design
> > >process. Unfortunately the process has been unbelievably slow. I am
> > >really looking forward to a solution in this issue.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >        Tom
> > >
> > >--
> > >        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
> > >                                Helsinki University of Technology
> > >                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi
> > >
> > >http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/
> > >
> > >
> > >Satwant Kaur wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> I am implementing the Regional Registration
> > >> (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt), and I agree with Annika that it is
> > >> important for FA and GFA to be able to make the distinction between the
> > Home
> > >> Registration Request (type 1) and Regional Registration Request (type 2)
> > >> messages. Furthermore, the mobility Agents should also be able to make a
> > >> distinction between Registration Reply (type 3) and Regional registration
> > >> reply (type 4).
> > >>
> > >> Another case where a similar problem would arise:
> > >>
> > >> Suppose MN wants to do Home Registration with a FA who does not advertise
> > >> itself. MN wants to be assigned a GFA and so it sends a Home Registration
> > >> Request (type 1) with careof field as 0, and HA address in the Home Agent
> > >> field.
> > >>
> > >> Now, if we do not have additional message types to be able to make a
> > >> distinction between type 1 and type 2 Registration requests, the FA will
> > >> have no way of knowing if (1) It is a home Registration with MN asking
> > to be
> > >> assigned a GFA for home Registration, or (2) It is a Regional Registration
> > >> (with FA set to 0, since FA did not advertise itself).
> > >>
> > >> FA can (mis)interpret it as type 2 message. It will incorrectly assume that
> > >> the HA address is really the GFA that the MN wants to register with. It
> > will
> > >> then forward the request to its HA address under the assumption it is
> > really
> > >> the GFA, instead of assigning a GFA address, and forwarding the
> > registration
> > >> to the assigned GFA.
> > >>
> > >> The above problem arose since FA reads the registration requests sent by
> > MN,
> > >> and forwards them to GFA. In the absence of the message type that would
> > >> enable FA to make a distinction between home registration request (type 1)
> > >> and regional registration request (type 2), the FA does not know where to
> > >> send the request to. The GFA address lies in the Home Agent field in
> > case of
> > >> type 2 and in the careof field in case of type 1 message. If the additional
> > >> type 2 message is not there, FA cannot make the distinction between Home Vs
> > >> Regional Registration Request.
> > >>
> > >> Similar problems will arise at GFA level, since when the GFA reads the
> > >> Registration Requests sent out by FA, and either forwards them to HA (in
> > >> case of Home Registration) or sends the reply back to FA (in case of
> > >> Regional Registration). If the type 2 message type is not there, GFA cannot
> > >> make the distinction between Home and Regional Registration. And it would
> > >> not know whether to send it forward to HA, or to send reply back to FA.
> > >>
> > >> Similar problems will also arise on the way back for Registration Reply
> > >> messages at FA and GFA, if type 4 is not present.
> > >>
> > >> Apart from the problems in the above special cases, I also do not favor
> > >> using anything other than message types to understand what type of
> > >> registration /registration reply it is. The reason is if one uses some
> > other
> > >> characteristics of the packets (in this case, the extensions) other than
> > its
> > >> "type" to identify the type of packets, it is against the spirit of
> > >> assigning the right job to the right field. It may also give us grief down
> > >> the road as it would restrict our freedom to use extensions in different
> > and
> > >> more creative ways in future.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Annika Jonsson" <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
> > >> To: <MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com>
> > >> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:54 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
> > >> Call -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
> > >>
> > >> > Hi Gopal,
> > >> >
> > >> > as Charlie say's, we have discussed this a lot. Here are some of our
> > >> > reasoning. The home and the regional registrations will always differ
> > >> > because of different replay protection and security associations for the
> > >> > authentication extensions. Furthermore, the FA has to be able to handle
> > >> > many different cases: a) normal RFC2002 registration b) home registration
> > >> > through GFA (to prepare for regional registrations) c) home registration
> > >> > with GFA set to zero (to ask that a GFA be assigned) d)regional
> > >> > registration e) regional registration with FA set to zero (in case FA
> > does
> > >> > not advertise itself).
> > >> >
> > >> > Therefore we think that using different message types to separate the
> > >> > handling of the home and the regional registration messages would make it
> > >> > simpler for the FA:s. I can give you one example: The MN is allowed to
> > try
> > >> > to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
> > >> > that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does
> > not
> > >> > know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
> > >> > that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old
> > GFA is
> > >> > the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
> > >> > registration would fail.
> > >> >
> > >> > /Annika
> > >> >
> > >> > At 22:35 2000-10-11 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:
> > >> > >Charlie,
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out
> > >> > requiring new messages, it is
> > >> > >possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be
> > where
> > >> > the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e,
> > >> in
> > >> > one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there,
> > >> in
> > >> > the regional case
> > >> > >it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if
> > >> > more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
> > >> > >
> > >> > >3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new
> > >> messages
> > >> > are given below:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
> > >> > >                            between regional registrations and home
> > >> > >                            registrations, because when it uses
> > >> > >                            regional registration, the nounces are not
> > >> > >                            synchronized with its home agent;
> > >> > >
> > >> > >                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
> > >> > >                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
> > >> > >                            registration) or to signify the use of an
> > >> > >                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
> > >> > >                            regional registration).
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >more comments below:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional
> > >> > registration request/reply messages. I think
> > >> > >>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
> > >> > >>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
> > >> > >>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
> > >> > >>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
> > >> > >>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
> > >> > >>making extensions to the existing messages would have
> > >> > >>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
> > >> > >>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
> > >> > >an extension.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
> > >> > >>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
> > >> > >>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
> > >> > >>levels of hierarchy.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the
> > >> > home registration also.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the
> > >> > GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
> > >> > >>> registrations.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home
> > >> > registration.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the
> > >> > message and the extensions.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft
> > >> > (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've
> > >> alluded
> > >> > to already.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions.
> > >> Using
> > >> > existing messages with extensions makes
> > >> > >>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing
> > >> > anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the
> > >> > implementation
> > >> > >>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not
> > >> have
> > >> > to build
> > >> > >>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have
> > >> > mentioned already,
> > >> > >>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I
> > >> > think that the
> > >> > >
> > >> > >could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >Regards,
> > >> > >Gopal
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >
>
> --
>         Tom Weckström           tweckstr@cc.hut.fi
>         Korppaanmäentie 16 B 14 Helsinki University of Technology
>         00300 Helsinki          Department of Computer Science
>         040-5642709             http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~tweckstr


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Hello Charlie,

Here comes my lengthy comments about reg-tunnel-03. Sorry for a long
email, but there were lots of things to comment.
I hope the ASCII graphics is not distorted.
I found quite many issues.
Some of them might be possible to solve with more explanations (maybe
I just did not get the ideas). Some of the issues should be solved in
other ways. More ideas below. Read on.

Regards,
        Tom


COMMENTS TO draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt

Tom Weckström

Legend:
+ = A positive note
- = A negative note, criticism
? = A question
! = Exclamation, either a critical issue or an important suggestion
idea
--> = conclusion mark

Ch 1.
+ Decision power at MN: regional or home registration possible
? Is it always good to let the MN deicde what kind of registration to
use?
? What are the benefits in giving the MN the right to decide?

- Different registration types makes the protocol more complex
  - Changes to std RFC2002 MN
  - Changes to FAs

Ch 3.1
? Is there a possibility to make a HA hierarchy as well?
  If not, why then?
--> Possibly another draft. Could be derived from J.K.Malinen's
thesis.

3.1.1.
? Why only assume two levels of FAs in the visited domain?

? Is the protocol fully flexible in its current form to support
N-level hierarchies? It should be. More comments after Appendix B.

"We assume that there exist established
   security associations between a GFA and the regional foreign
   agents beneath it."
---> This implies the RFAs HAVE to know their GFA.
---> Satwant Kaur's scenario with RFA not knowing the GFA is
impossible.
---> No need for different message types for regional and home
registration.
---> More transparency and simpleness achieved.

3.3.

" If the `I' bit is set, there MUST be at least one care-of address in
the Agent Advertisement message."
"If the `I' bit is set, and there is only one care-of address, it is
   the address of the GFA."
---> If so, there cannot be a situation where GFA is not known at the
     moment of registration. (Provided the address is real, not zero.)

---> The text could be clarified to mention about the relationships of
     the FAs in the hierarchy. Do they all know each other? Do they
     only know who's above and who's below them?.


3.4.1.

+ Setting GFA IP to zero improves flexibility.

"If the `I' bit is set, but the GFA
   address is zero (0), the mobile node MUST check to make sure that
it
   receives a GFA IP address extension as part of any home
registration,
   or else send its home registration using the care-of address of
some
   previously known GFA in the same visited domain."

? This makes the possible topologies more cumbersome.
---> Eg. GFA1, ..., GFA4 are all connected to RFA1 and RFA2 and RFA3
and RFA4.
? Why is this needed? For load balancing type of activities?

? Does the possibility to set GFA address to zero in the request open
new holes in the security?  E.g. Mallory acts as an additional GFA in
the hierarchy and captures MN's reg.reg. coming from RFA1. This gives
a possibility to intrude as a GFA into MIP signaling. However,
additional bonuses are few. And eventually Mallory could set up his
own ISP.

3.4.2.

" If the care-of address field is set to zero, the foreign agent
   assigns a GFA to the mobile node, by some means not described in
   this specification, and adds a GFA IP Address extension to the
   Registration Request message."

? RFA selects the GFA? RFA has no knowledge of GFA conditions (load,
etc.). How could an RFA make the decision? This could be solved with
the topology or by other means, but involves more protocol
intelligence anyway and whence adds to complexity.


"and it SHOULD be protected by an FA-FA Authentication extension."
? Where is FA-FA auth ext described? In another draft, I suppose.


3.5.1.

" it is necessary to distinguish regional registrations from home
   registration.  Thus, we introduce new message types for the
   Regional Registration messages."

? Could we make the distinction by defining that every registration
with a valid MN-FA auth ext is a regional registration? Furthermore,
if there is no MN-FA auth ext or if that extension is invalid, the FAs
forward the message upwards in the hierarchy.
Example: Consider an N-level hierarchy. See image below:

                                 ------
                                 | HA |
                                 ------
                                   |
                               (Internet)
                                   |
                                -------
                                | GFA |
                                -------
                              /         \
                      -------             -------
                      | FA1 |             | FA2 |
                      -------             -------
                       /   \               /   \
                 -------   -------   -------   -------
                 | FA3 |   | FA4 |   | FA5 |   | FA6 |
                 -------   -------   -------   -------
                                  \
                                   \
                                 ------
                                 | MN |
                                 ------

                  Figure 1: Mobility Agent Hierarchy


! Now, if MN is registered to FA4 and changes to FA6, then it sends
the
registration request to FA6 and FA6 does not know the MN-FA auth ext
in the registration neither has it heard of MN before (no mobility
bindings existing for MN). Then FA6 jsut forwards the request upwards
to FA2. FA2 also does not have a clue about MN, so it too forwards the
request upwards. Finally, GFA knows the MN from its bindings and also
can validate the MN-FA auth ext. Eventually, this registration became
regional. Now, if there were no MN-FA auth ext, or if it was invalid,
also the GFA would have forwarded the message - now to the HA.  Maybe
an invalid auth extensions should result in request denial if the MN
is known to the FA (i.e. there is a binding for the MN in the
FA). After all the MN is known, and the authentication does not match.

! Anyway, there seems to be no need for separate regional and home
registration messages. The MN still has the choice to either include
the FA-MN auth ext or leave it away.

! NOTE, that this is directly applicable to N-level hierarchies!


3.5.2.

" The only difference is that there is the GFA IP address instead of
   the address of the home agent."

? Does this mean that the Home Agent field in the RFC2002 compliant
registration request field has the IP addr of GFA? Section
6.1. verified this assumption. This could be more clearly stated
already in section 3.5.2.



4.2.

"By comparing the domain part of the foreign agent NAI with the domain
   part of its own NAI, the mobile node can determine whether it is in
   its home domain or in a visited domain, and whether it has changed
   domain since it last registered."

+ Exactly! Good. :)


6.1.


"
  GFA IP Address
      The IP address of the Gateway Foreign Agent.  (Replaces
       Home Agent field in Registration Request message
       in [9].)

      Care-of Address
                 Care-of address of local foreign agent; MAY be set to
                 zero.
"

? Why should the HA field be replaced? There is the COA field to
be used for the GFA IP addr. The FAs in the hierarchy can use
extensions or directly the source IP of the outer header to get the
address of the "lower" agent in the hierarchy as the registration
traverses upwards.

? Why is the COA field filled with the local COA?  The lowest FA
always knows behind which interface the MN is.  The FA aboe the lowest
FA knows the interface from which the first reg.request came and also
the IP of the lowest FA. This continues from the bottom of the FA tree
to the top, i.e., the GFA. ALL that is needed in MIP sense is the GFA
IP in the COA field and this is for the HA. The hierarchy of FAs
handles the tunneling in the hierarhcy by other means.




A.

" - a mobile node must be able to distinguish between regional
     registrations and home registrations, because when it uses
     regional registration, the nounces are not synchronized with its
     home agent;"

! Dynamics works with nonces also, and it supports regional
registrations. I have to find out how the nonce synchronization is
done in Dynamics. Perhaps the lack of FA-MN auth ext (again) is enough
for the MN to control between home and regional registrations.


B.2.
"
 This process is repeated in each RFA in the hierarchy, until an RFA
   recognizes the mobile node as already registered.  This RFA may be
   the GFA, or any RFA beneath it in the hierarchy.  If the mobile
node
   is already registered with this RFA, the RFA generates a Regional
   Registration Reply and sends it to the next lower-level RFA in the
   hierarchy.  The lifetime field in the Regional Registration Reply
is
   set to the remaining lifetime that was earlier agreed upon between
   the mobile node and the GFA. If the lifetime of the GFA
registration
   has expired, the Regional Registration Request is relayed all the
way
   to the GFA.

   If the hierarchy between the advertising foreign agent and the GFA
is
   announced in the Agent Advertisement, the mobile node may generate
   a Regional Registration Request not destined to the GFA, but to the
   closest RFA with which it can register.
"

? So, if the FA hierarchy is not revealed in the advertisements, then
the regional registrations always go to the GFA?

! There are drawbacks with this approach:

  - The hierarchy is not transparent anymore
    --> A security issue
    --> Needs more functionality in MN

  - The advertisements become some bytes larger because of the
    hierarchy information in them.

  - IF the hierarchy is not revealed, then the GFA is loaded because
    of ALL the regional registrations coming to it.

--> SUGGESTION:

!    Make the MN add a "previous FA NAI" extension to its
registrations
    intended for regional handling. See more info from Jouni Malinen's
    thesis (p. 29-30) available on Dynamics HUT MIP web site. This
    removes the rece condition inherent in for example Dynamics v. 0.5
    which used specific tear down messages. This also keeps the
    hierarhcy completely transparent and does NOT require any complex
    intelligence from the MN, e.g. to claculate the closest "common"
    RFA that could be the target for a regional registration. Adding
    the previous FA NAI extension is very straightforward and does not
    require any additional intelligence from the MN.


B.2.1.

"   recognizes the mobile node as already registered, may generate a
   Regional Registration Reply, not all Regional Registration Requests
   will reach the GFA. Therefore, if old locations are not
deregistered,
   it is possible that tunnels are not correctly redirected when a
   mobile node moves back to a previous foreign agent."

! I think Jouni Malinen solved this issue in his thesis, too. The
solution is tied to the "previous FA NAI extension". Jouni's thesis,
pages 29-30 at least, clarify this solution.



" In case (3), the mobile node sends a Regional Registration Request
to
   its new foreign agent.  If the mobile node does not request smooth
   handoff, the previous foreign agent is not notified.  The Regional
   Registration Request is relayed upwards in the hierarchy until it
   reaches a foreign agent that recognizes the mobile node as already
   registered.  This foreign agent generates a Regional Registration
   Reply and sends it downwards in the hierarchy toward the new
location
   of the mobile node, updating its own visitor list.  At the same
time,
   it also sends a Binding Update with a zero lifetime to the previous
   care-of address it had registered for the mobile node.  The Binding
   Update is authenticated by the FA-FA Authentication extension.
Each
   foreign agent receiving the Binding Update removes the mobile node
   from its visitor lists.  The Binding Update is relayed down to the
   care-of address of the mobile node known to that foreign agent, and
   each foreign agent in the hierarchy receiving this notification
   removes the mobile node from its visitor list.
"

! This results in the race condition I mentioned before. Dynamics v
0.5
had similar kind of message with zero binding lifetime. We called this
a "tear down" message, because it tore down the old bindings and
tunnels. There is a race condition in this, when for example tear down
messages are lost. The state of the FA hierarchy is not up to date a
fter one missed tear down message. Use "previous FA NAI" extension
instead. This, too, has a possible problem, also mentioned in Jouni's
thesis, if the reg.reply is lost and MN moves forward to another FA
that may think it can actually answer the request. This can be soved
as in Jouni's thesis or by only using the NAI of that FA from which we
previously have received a positive reg.reply....


" If the mobile node uses a co-located care-of address for its
regional registration, there is no need to deregister its previous
location when it moves, since regional registrations with a co-located
care-of address are performed directly with the GFA."

! I would say this is a limitation of your architecture. The GFA MUST
NOT be automatically burdened by this kind of registrations. If this
is not fixed, then we lose a part of the whole idea of using
hierarchies - to distribute and localize the registration handling as
much as possible.








Charlie Perkins wrote:
>
> Hello Tom,
>
> > I discovered the 'hidden' assumption of RFAs and their GFA knowing
> > abouit each other from the draft. :-)
>
> It wasn't intended to be hidden.  How can we make it more explicit?
>
> > I will check the security association issue more closely.
> > I am not completely convinced that there needs to be a separate
> > message type for different uses of security associations.
> > Why couldn't the FAs automatically consider the registration as a home
> > reg if there is not acceptable sec association used for FA-MN
> > authentication?
>
> Because the mobile node is very likely to want to send a home
> registration whenever it feels like renewing its current care-of
> address, thereby increasing the lifetime.  We do not want to make
> any implicit judgements about type of registration based on the
> remaining registratoin lifetime.  That sounds like a really bad idea.
>
> At any time, the mobile node should be allowed to send either a
> home registration or a regional registration, subject only to the
> constraint that the lifetime of the regional registration should not
> exceed the lifetime of the regional registration.
>
> > I will send my comment later.
> > Hopefully not too late. :-/
> > When does the last call end?
>
> I think formally it might have ended a month ago, but the purpose
> after all is to find out if the draft is ready for advancement.  So,
> I think it's just fine to ask questions.  So far, the main comments
> we have gotten about necessary changes is to put in more details
> about running in the mode where the "first" foreign agent becomes
> the GFA (what others have called "anchoring").
>
> Other than that, I think we're ready to go depending on your
> comments.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.

--
        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
                                Helsinki University of Technology
                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi

http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/


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              WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt
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-----Original Message-----
From: Annika Jonsson [mailto:annika.jonsson@ericsson.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 3:58 AM
To: "Tom K. Weckstr=F6m"; Charlie Perkins
Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP]
WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)


------------------
Hi Tom,

I'll try to answer your comments and questions. This mail only deals =
with
the simple ones, more will follow in separate messages...

At 02:02 2000-10-25 +0300, Tom K. Weckstr=F6m wrote:
>
>
>Hello Charlie,
>
>Here comes my lengthy comments about reg-tunnel-03. Sorry for a long
>email, but there were lots of things to comment.
>I hope the ASCII graphics is not distorted.
>I found quite many issues.
>Some of them might be possible to solve with more explanations (maybe
>I just did not get the ideas). Some of the issues should be solved in
>other ways. More ideas below. Read on.
>
>Regards,
>       Tom
>
>
>COMMENTS TO draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt
>
>Tom Weckstr=F6m
>
>Legend:
>+ =3D A positive note
>- =3D A negative note, criticism
>? =3D A question
>! =3D Exclamation, either a critical issue or an important suggestion
>idea
>--> =3D conclusion mark
>

>
>Ch 3.1
>? Is there a possibility to make a HA hierarchy as well?
>  If not, why then?
>--> Possibly another draft. Could be derived from J.K.Malinen's
>thesis.
>

Sure it is, it was included in one of the predecessors to this draft. =
We
felt it would be easier to handle it in separate drafts, and we think =
the
hierarchical FA:s are more important.

>3.1.1.
>? Why only assume two levels of FAs in the visited domain?
>

It's mainly for pedagogic reasons. It makes the description of the =
protocol
easier and clearer, and also we think that is an important scenario. In
this way we first describe the basics of the protocol, and then add the
multiple level hierarchies.

>? Is the protocol fully flexible in its current form to support
>N-level hierarchies? It should be. More comments after Appendix B.
>

It's supposed to be. If not, we would certainly want to know ;-) I'll =
look
at your comments after teh Appendix.


>3.3.
>
>" If the `I' bit is set, there MUST be at least one care-of address in
>the Agent Advertisement message."
>"If the `I' bit is set, and there is only one care-of address, it is
>   the address of the GFA."
>---> If so, there cannot be a situation where GFA is not known at the
>     moment of registration. (Provided the address is real, not zero.)
>

The GFA address in the advertisments can be zero. Will clarify this.

>---> The text could be clarified to mention about the relationships of
>     the FAs in the hierarchy. Do they all know each other? Do they
>     only know who's above and who's below them?.
>

Yes, this should be clarified.

>
>3.4.1.
>
>+ Setting GFA IP to zero improves flexibility.
>
>"If the `I' bit is set, but the GFA
>   address is zero (0), the mobile node MUST check to make sure that
>it
>   receives a GFA IP address extension as part of any home
>registration,
>   or else send its home registration using the care-of address of
>some
>   previously known GFA in the same visited domain."
>
>? This makes the possible topologies more cumbersome.
>---> Eg. GFA1, ..., GFA4 are all connected to RFA1 and RFA2 and RFA3
>and RFA4.
>? Why is this needed? For load balancing type of activities?
>

Yes, we wanted to allow this kind of topology. It can be used for e.g. =
load
balancing, or, it could be that an MN should use a specific GFA for
different reasons.

>? Does the possibility to set GFA address to zero in the request open
>new holes in the security?  E.g. Mallory acts as an additional GFA in
>the hierarchy and captures MN's reg.reg. coming from RFA1. This gives
>a possibility to intrude as a GFA into MIP signaling. However,
>additional bonuses are few. And eventually Mallory could set up his
>own ISP.
>

No, when the reply comes back to the RFA, the FA-FA auth. will fail in =
that
case.

>3.4.2.
>
>" If the care-of address field is set to zero, the foreign agent
>   assigns a GFA to the mobile node, by some means not described in
>   this specification, and adds a GFA IP Address extension to the
>   Registration Request message."
>
>? RFA selects the GFA? RFA has no knowledge of GFA conditions (load,
>etc.). How could an RFA make the decision? This could be solved with
>the topology or by other means, but involves more protocol
>intelligence anyway and whence adds to complexity.
>

We specificaly said: "by some means not described in this =
specification".
It's  not necessarily the RFA that decides, but it must have some way =
of
finding out which GFA to use, of course.=20

>
>"and it SHOULD be protected by an FA-FA Authentication extension."
>? Where is FA-FA auth ext described? In another draft, I suppose.
>

Oohps, will add that.


>3.5.2.
>
>" The only difference is that there is the GFA IP address instead of
>   the address of the home agent."
>
>? Does this mean that the Home Agent field in the RFC2002 compliant
>registration request field has the IP addr of GFA? Section
>6.1. verified this assumption. This could be more clearly stated
>already in section 3.5.2.
>
>

Will clarify.

>
>B.2.
>"
> This process is repeated in each RFA in the hierarchy, until an RFA
>   recognizes the mobile node as already registered.  This RFA may be
>   the GFA, or any RFA beneath it in the hierarchy.  If the mobile
>node
>   is already registered with this RFA, the RFA generates a Regional
>   Registration Reply and sends it to the next lower-level RFA in the
>   hierarchy.  The lifetime field in the Regional Registration Reply
>is
>   set to the remaining lifetime that was earlier agreed upon between
>   the mobile node and the GFA. If the lifetime of the GFA
>registration
>   has expired, the Regional Registration Request is relayed all the
>way
>   to the GFA.
>
>   If the hierarchy between the advertising foreign agent and the GFA
>is
>   announced in the Agent Advertisement, the mobile node may generate
>   a Regional Registration Request not destined to the GFA, but to the
>   closest RFA with which it can register.
>"
>
>? So, if the FA hierarchy is not revealed in the advertisements, then
>the regional registrations always go to the GFA?
>

No. See your quotation above, the first RFA that recognises the MN =
replies
(unless the lifetime has expired). This is regardless of whether
hierarchies are advertised or not.

I'll come back to your other comments later.

Thanks for your feedback!
/Annika

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Annika Jonsson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:annika.jonsson@ericsson.com">mailto:annika.jonsson@ericss=
on.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 3:58 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: &quot;Tom K. Weckstr=F6m&quot;; Charlie =
Perkins</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP]</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This&nbsp; message was&nbsp; originally =
submitted&nbsp; by annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM&nbsp; to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>MOBILE-IP list at&nbsp; =
STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM. If you simply&nbsp; forward it =
back</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to the&nbsp; list, using a&nbsp; mail command =
that&nbsp; generates &quot;Resent-&quot; fields&nbsp; (ask your</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>local user&nbsp; support or&nbsp; consult the&nbsp; =
documentation of your&nbsp; mail program&nbsp; if in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>doubt), it will be distributed and the explanations =
you are now reading will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>removed automatically.&nbsp; If on&nbsp; the =
other&nbsp; hand you&nbsp; edit the&nbsp; contributions you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>receive&nbsp; into a&nbsp; digest,&nbsp; you&nbsp; =
will have&nbsp; to&nbsp; remove&nbsp; this paragraph&nbsp; =
manually.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Finally, you should be able to contact&nbsp; the =
author of this message by using the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>normal &quot;reply&quot; function of your mail =
program.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>---------------- Message requiring your approval (194 =
lines) ------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi Tom,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'll try to answer your comments and questions. This =
mail only deals with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the simple ones, more will follow in separate =
messages...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>At 02:02 2000-10-25 +0300, Tom K. Weckstr=F6m =
wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Hello Charlie,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Here comes my lengthy comments about =
reg-tunnel-03. Sorry for a long</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;email, but there were lots of things to =
comment.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;I hope the ASCII graphics is not =
distorted.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;I found quite many issues.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Some of them might be possible to solve with =
more explanations (maybe</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;I just did not get the ideas). Some of the =
issues should be solved in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;other ways. More ideas below. Read on.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tom</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;COMMENTS TO =
draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Tom Weckstr=F6m</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Legend:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;+ =3D A positive note</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;- =3D A negative note, criticism</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? =3D A question</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;! =3D Exclamation, either a critical issue or an =
important suggestion</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;idea</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;--&gt; =3D conclusion mark</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Ch 3.1</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? Is there a possibility to make a HA hierarchy =
as well?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; If not, why then?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;--&gt; Possibly another draft. Could be derived =
from J.K.Malinen's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;thesis.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sure it is, it was included in one of the =
predecessors to this draft. We</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>felt it would be easier to handle it in separate =
drafts, and we think the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>hierarchical FA:s are more important.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;3.1.1.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? Why only assume two levels of FAs in the =
visited domain?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It's mainly for pedagogic reasons. It makes the =
description of the protocol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>easier and clearer, and also we think that is an =
important scenario. In</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>this way we first describe the basics of the =
protocol, and then add the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>multiple level hierarchies.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? Is the protocol fully flexible in its current =
form to support</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;N-level hierarchies? It should be. More comments =
after Appendix B.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It's supposed to be. If not, we would certainly want =
to know ;-) I'll look</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>at your comments after teh Appendix.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;3.3.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot; If the `I' bit is set, there MUST be at =
least one care-of address in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;the Agent Advertisement message.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot;If the `I' bit is set, and there is only =
one care-of address, it is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; the address of the =
GFA.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;---&gt; If so, there cannot be a situation where =
GFA is not known at the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; moment of registration. =
(Provided the address is real, not zero.)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The GFA address in the advertisments can be zero. =
Will clarify this.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;---&gt; The text could be clarified to mention =
about the relationships of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the FAs in the =
hierarchy. Do they all know each other? Do they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; only know who's above =
and who's below them?.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yes, this should be clarified.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;3.4.1.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;+ Setting GFA IP to zero improves =
flexibility.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot;If the `I' bit is set, but the GFA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; address is zero (0), the mobile =
node MUST check to make sure that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; receives a GFA IP address extension =
as part of any home</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;registration,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; or else send its home registration =
using the care-of address of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; previously known GFA in the same =
visited domain.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? This makes the possible topologies more =
cumbersome.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;---&gt; Eg. GFA1, ..., GFA4 are all connected to =
RFA1 and RFA2 and RFA3</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;and RFA4.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? Why is this needed? For load balancing type of =
activities?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yes, we wanted to allow this kind of topology. It can =
be used for e.g. load</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>balancing, or, it could be that an MN should use a =
specific GFA for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>different reasons.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? Does the possibility to set GFA address to zero =
in the request open</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;new holes in the security?&nbsp; E.g. Mallory =
acts as an additional GFA in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;the hierarchy and captures MN's reg.reg. coming =
from RFA1. This gives</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;a possibility to intrude as a GFA into MIP =
signaling. However,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;additional bonuses are few. And eventually =
Mallory could set up his</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;own ISP.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No, when the reply comes back to the RFA, the FA-FA =
auth. will fail in that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>case.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;3.4.2.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot; If the care-of address field is set to =
zero, the foreign agent</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; assigns a GFA to the mobile node, =
by some means not described in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; this specification, and adds a GFA =
IP Address extension to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Registration Request =
message.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? RFA selects the GFA? RFA has no knowledge of =
GFA conditions (load,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;etc.). How could an RFA make the decision? This =
could be solved with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;the topology or by other means, but involves =
more protocol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;intelligence anyway and whence adds to =
complexity.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We specificaly said: &quot;by some means not =
described in this specification&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>It's&nbsp; not necessarily the RFA that decides, but =
it must have some way of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>finding out which GFA to use, of course. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot;and it SHOULD be protected by an FA-FA =
Authentication extension.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? Where is FA-FA auth ext described? In another =
draft, I suppose.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Oohps, will add that.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;3.5.2.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot; The only difference is that there is the =
GFA IP address instead of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; the address of the home =
agent.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? Does this mean that the Home Agent field in =
the RFC2002 compliant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;registration request field has the IP addr of =
GFA? Section</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;6.1. verified this assumption. This could be =
more clearly stated</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;already in section 3.5.2.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Will clarify.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;B.2.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This process is repeated in each RFA in the =
hierarchy, until an RFA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; recognizes the mobile node as =
already registered.&nbsp; This RFA may be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; the GFA, or any RFA beneath it in =
the hierarchy.&nbsp; If the mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;node</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; is already registered with this =
RFA, the RFA generates a Regional</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Registration Reply and sends it to =
the next lower-level RFA in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; hierarchy.&nbsp; The lifetime field =
in the Regional Registration Reply</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; set to the remaining lifetime that =
was earlier agreed upon between</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; the mobile node and the GFA. If the =
lifetime of the GFA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;registration</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; has expired, the Regional =
Registration Request is relayed all the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;way</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the GFA.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; If the hierarchy between the =
advertising foreign agent and the GFA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; announced in the Agent =
Advertisement, the mobile node may generate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; a Regional Registration Request not =
destined to the GFA, but to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; closest RFA with which it can =
register.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;? So, if the FA hierarchy is not revealed in the =
advertisements, then</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;the regional registrations always go to the =
GFA?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No. See your quotation above, the first RFA that =
recognises the MN replies</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(unless the lifetime has expired). This is =
regardless of whether</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>hierarchies are advertised or not.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'll come back to your other comments later.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks for your feedback!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>/Annika</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Kwan-Wu Chin [mailto:kwchin@arc.corp.mot.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:27 AM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Subject: DATELINE EXTENSION: IPDPS-2001 Workshop on PDC Issues in WNMC


------------------
Dear Collegues,

  Sorry if you received multiple copies of this
CFP.

Dateline Extended: ** 10th November 2000 **

Cheers
Kwan
Motorola Australia Research Centre (MARC)

------------------------------- CFP ------------------------------
                    1st  International Workshop on
                   Parallel and Distributed Computing
                     Issues in Wireless Networks and
                           Mobile Computing

IPDPS 2001 WORKSHOPS
April 23-27, 2001
Hyatt Regency
San Francisco Airport
*******************************************************************
General Chair
Sajal K. Das, The University of Texas at Arlington, USA

Program  Co-Chairs
Mohan J. Kumar, Curtin University of Technology, Perth, Australia
                and The University of Texas at  Arlington, USA
Paul Spirakis, Computer Technology Institute, Patras, Greece
*********************************************************************
Mobile computing has emerged as an important area of computing today as
we move to the next millennium. This has been made possible due to the
tremendous and continued growth of wireless communications and network
technology over the past decade, providing infrastructures for "anytime
anywhere" access to distributed computing systems and information
repositories. The mobility of users offers new challenges to seamless
connectivity in a distributed, heterogeneous network of wireline and
wireless components.  Several techniques and algorithms developed by the
parallel and distributed computing community can be applied to solve
typical  wireless networks and  mobile computing : routing, scheduling,
load balancing, cache coherence, information access, and QoS
provisioning problems. The objective of this workshop is to bring
together technologists and researchers of international reputation in
the areas of Parallel and Distributed Computing and Wireless Networks
and Mobile Computing in order to have a forum for  discussions, exchange
of ideas  and presentations.
Authors are invited to submit original unpublished manuscripts for for
this workshop. Accepted papers will be published in the proceedings of
the IPDPS workshops

Topics of interest include (but are not limited to):
* Processor Architectures for Mobile and Wearable Computers
* Wireless networks in grid computing applications
* Routing in adhoc networks
* Parallel and distributed techniques for solving problems in mobile
  computing
* Distributed techniques for QoS Provisioning in wireless networks
* Distributed caches in mobile computing environments
* Caching, prefetching, pushcaching and replication to enhance
  information access in wireless networks
* Distributed wireless sensor networks
* Routing and location independent information access
* Scheduling issues in mobile computing
* Parallel/distributed algorithms for mobile computing systems
* Distributed Wireless multimedia systems
* Active Networks


SUBMISSION GUIDELINES:
Authors are invited to submit summaries of original unpublished research
to one opf the the Workshop Chairs.  All submissions will be reviewed by
referees. Summaries should not exceed ten  (10) single-spaced pages of
text using 12 point size type on 8.5 x 11 inch pages. References,
figures, tables, etc. may be included in addition to the ten  pages of
text. The summary should include an abstract of approximately 100
words.  The corresponding author is requested to include in a cover
letter: (1) complete postal address; (2) email address; (3) phone
number; and (4) fax number. Submissions may be by hard copy or by
email.  Electronic submissions are preferred and should be sent to
kumar@cs.curtin.edu.au or spirakis@cti.gr. Authors should submit the
cover page in ASCII form followed by a PostScript (level 2) file and
make sure that it will print on a PostScript printer that uses 8.5 x 11
inch (US letter size) paper.  For hard copy submissions, authors should
submit seven (7) hard copies of their paper along with the cover letter
to Mohan Kumar or Paul Spirakis.
All  manuscripts  will be reviewed.  Manuscripts   must be received by
October 30, 2000.  Submissions received after the  due date or exceeding
the  length    limit may not  be    considered. Notification of review
decisions will be mailed by December 10, 2000. Camera-ready papers are
due January  15, 2001.  Proceedings will  be available at the
Conference.
*********************************************************************
IMPORTANT DATES:
November 10,  2000         Workshop Paper Due (Extended)
December 10,  2000         Notification of Acceptance/Rejection
January  15,  2001         Camera-Ready Paper Due
*********************************************************************
Workshop Program Co-Chairs
Mohan Kumar
School of Computer Science
Curtin University of Technology
GPO Box U 1987, Perth WA 1987
AUSTRALIA
Fax: +61 8 9266 2819
E-mail: kumar@cs.curtin.edu.au

and

Paul Spirakis
Director and Senior Researcher
Computer Technology Institute
61 Riga Fereou Str., 26221 Patras, Greece
Patras, Greece
Fax: +30 61 993 973, +30 61 222086
E-mail: spirakis@cti.gr
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Technical Program Committee
------------------------------

Maurizio Bonuccelli University of Pisa, Italy
Azzedine Boukerche, University of North Texas, USA
Luca Cardelli, Microsoft Research, Cambridge, UK
Kwan-Wu Chin, Motorola Australia Research Centre
Kee Chaing Chua, National University of Singapore
Marco Conti, Italian National Research Council, Italy
Samir Das, University of Cincinatti, USA
Xiaohua Jia, City University of Hong Kong
Jan van Leeuwen University of Utrecht, The Netherlands
John Lui, The Chinese University of Hong Kong
Marios Mavronicolas, University of Cyprus, Cyprus
Cristina Pinnotti, Italian National Research Council
Sotiris Nikoletseas Computer Technology Institute, Greece
Don Sannella  University of Edinburgh, Scotland
Mukesh Singhal, Ohio State University, USA
Nitin Vaidya, Texas A&M University, USA
Yongbing Zhang  University of Tsukuba, Japan
Martha Steenstrup, BBN Technologies, USA
Albert Zomaya, University of Western Australia, Perth, Australia
Somprakash Bandopadhyay, PWC Global, Calcutta, India
Stefano Basagni, University of Texas at Dallas, USA


Steering Commitee (Under creation)
------------------------------
Victor Bahl, Microsoft, Seattle, USA
Kalyan Basu, Nortel Networks, Richardson, USA
Andrew Campbell, Columbia University, USA
Imrich Chlamtac, The University of Texas at Dallas
Sajal Das, The University of Texas at Arlington, USA

Publicity Co-Chairs:
------------------------------
Kwan-Wu Chin, Motorola Australia Research Centre
Sotiris Nikoletseas Computer Technology Institute

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Kwan-Wu Chin [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:kwchin@arc.corp.mot.com">mailto:kwchin@arc.corp.mot.com</=
A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:27 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: DATELINE EXTENSION: IPDPS-2001 Workshop on =
PDC Issues in WNMC</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This&nbsp; message&nbsp; was&nbsp; originally&nbsp; =
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<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>MOBILE-IP list at&nbsp; =
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>---------------- Message requiring your approval (154 =
lines) ------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dear Collegues,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; Sorry if you received multiple copies of =
this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>CFP.&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Dateline Extended: ** 10th November 2000 **</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kwan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Motorola Australia Research Centre (MARC)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------- CFP =
------------------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1st&nbsp; =
International Workshop on</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Parallel and Distributed =
Computing </FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Issues in =
Wireless Networks and</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mobile Computing</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>IPDPS 2001 WORKSHOPS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>April 23-27, 2001</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hyatt Regency</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>San Francisco Airport</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>***************************************************************=
****</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>General Chair</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sajal K. Das, The University of Texas at Arlington, =
USA</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Program&nbsp; Co-Chairs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mohan J. Kumar, Curtin University of Technology, =
Perth, Australia</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and The University of Texas at&nbsp; =
Arlington, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Paul Spirakis, Computer Technology Institute, =
Patras, Greece</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>***************************************************************=
******</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mobile computing has emerged as an important area of =
computing today as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>we move to the next millennium. This has been made =
possible due to the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>tremendous and continued growth of wireless =
communications and network</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>technology over the past decade, providing =
infrastructures for &quot;anytime</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>anywhere&quot; access to distributed computing =
systems and information</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>repositories. The mobility of users offers new =
challenges to seamless</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>connectivity in a distributed, heterogeneous network =
of wireline and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>wireless components.&nbsp; Several techniques and =
algorithms developed by the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>parallel and distributed computing community can be =
applied to solve</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>typical&nbsp; wireless networks and&nbsp; mobile =
computing : routing, scheduling,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>load balancing, cache coherence, information access, =
and QoS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>provisioning problems. The objective of this =
workshop is to bring</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>together technologists and researchers of =
international reputation in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the areas of Parallel and Distributed Computing and =
Wireless Networks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and Mobile Computing in order to have a forum =
for&nbsp; discussions, exchange</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of ideas&nbsp; and presentations.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Authors are invited to submit original unpublished =
manuscripts for for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>this workshop. Accepted papers will be published in =
the proceedings of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the IPDPS workshops</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Topics of interest include (but are not limited =
to):</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Processor Architectures for Mobile and Wearable =
Computers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Wireless networks in grid computing =
applications</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Routing in adhoc networks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Parallel and distributed techniques for solving =
problems in mobile</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; computing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Distributed techniques for QoS Provisioning in =
wireless networks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Distributed caches in mobile computing =
environments</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Caching, prefetching, pushcaching and replication =
to enhance</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp; information access in wireless =
networks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Distributed wireless sensor networks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Routing and location independent information =
access</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Scheduling issues in mobile computing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Parallel/distributed algorithms for mobile =
computing systems</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Distributed Wireless multimedia systems</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>* Active Networks</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>SUBMISSION GUIDELINES:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Authors are invited to submit summaries of original =
unpublished research</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to one opf the the Workshop Chairs.&nbsp; All =
submissions will be reviewed by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>referees. Summaries should not exceed ten&nbsp; (10) =
single-spaced pages of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>text using 12 point size type on 8.5 x 11 inch =
pages. References,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>figures, tables, etc. may be included in addition to =
the ten&nbsp; pages of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>text. The summary should include an abstract of =
approximately 100</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>words.&nbsp; The corresponding author is requested =
to include in a cover</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>letter: (1) complete postal address; (2) email =
address; (3) phone</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>number; and (4) fax number. Submissions may be by =
hard copy or by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>email.&nbsp; Electronic submissions are preferred =
and should be sent to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>kumar@cs.curtin.edu.au or spirakis@cti.gr. Authors =
should submit the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>cover page in ASCII form followed by a PostScript =
(level 2) file and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>make sure that it will print on a PostScript printer =
that uses 8.5 x 11</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>inch (US letter size) paper.&nbsp; For hard copy =
submissions, authors should</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>submit seven (7) hard copies of their paper along =
with the cover letter</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>to Mohan Kumar or Paul Spirakis.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>All&nbsp; manuscripts&nbsp; will be reviewed.&nbsp; =
Manuscripts&nbsp;&nbsp; must be received by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>October 30, 2000.&nbsp; Submissions received after =
the&nbsp; due date or exceeding</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the&nbsp; length&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; limit may =
not&nbsp; be&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; considered. Notification of =
review</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>decisions will be mailed by December 10, 2000. =
Camera-ready papers are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>due January&nbsp; 15, 2001.&nbsp; Proceedings =
will&nbsp; be available at the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Conference.</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>***************************************************************=
******</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>IMPORTANT DATES:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>November 10,&nbsp; =
2000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Workshop Paper Due =
(Extended)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>December 10,&nbsp; =
2000&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Notification of =
Acceptance/Rejection</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>January&nbsp; 15,&nbsp; =
2001&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Camera-Ready Paper =
Due</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>***************************************************************=
******</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Workshop Program Co-Chairs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mohan Kumar</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>School of Computer Science</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Curtin University of Technology</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>GPO Box U 1987, Perth WA 1987</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>AUSTRALIA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: +61 8 9266 2819</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>E-mail: kumar@cs.curtin.edu.au</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>and</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Paul Spirakis</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Director and Senior Researcher</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Computer Technology Institute</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>61 Riga Fereou Str., 26221 Patras, Greece</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Patras, Greece</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax: +30 61 993 973, +30 61 222086</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>E-mail: spirakis@cti.gr</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
+</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Technical Program Committee</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Maurizio Bonuccelli University of Pisa, Italy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Azzedine Boukerche, University of North Texas, =
USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Luca Cardelli, Microsoft Research, Cambridge, =
UK</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kwan-Wu Chin, Motorola Australia Research =
Centre</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kee Chaing Chua, National University of =
Singapore</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Marco Conti, Italian National Research Council, =
Italy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Samir Das, University of Cincinatti, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Xiaohua Jia, City University of Hong Kong</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Jan van Leeuwen University of Utrecht, The =
Netherlands</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>John Lui, The Chinese University of Hong Kong</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Marios Mavronicolas, University of Cyprus, =
Cyprus</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cristina Pinnotti, Italian National Research =
Council</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sotiris Nikoletseas Computer Technology Institute, =
Greece</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Don Sannella&nbsp; University of Edinburgh, =
Scotland</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mukesh Singhal, Ohio State University, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Nitin Vaidya, Texas A&amp;M University, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yongbing Zhang&nbsp; University of Tsukuba, =
Japan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Martha Steenstrup, BBN Technologies, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Albert Zomaya, University of Western Australia, =
Perth, Australia</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Somprakash Bandopadhyay, PWC Global, Calcutta, =
India</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Stefano Basagni, University of Texas at Dallas, =
USA</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Steering Commitee (Under creation)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Victor Bahl, Microsoft, Seattle, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kalyan Basu, Nortel Networks, Richardson, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Andrew Campbell, Columbia University, USA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Imrich Chlamtac, The University of Texas at =
Dallas</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sajal Das, The University of Texas at Arlington, =
USA</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Publicity Co-Chairs:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>------------------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Kwan-Wu Chin, Motorola Australia Research =
Centre</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sotiris Nikoletseas Computer Technology =
Institute</FONT>
</P>

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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 26 08:45:23 2000
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Approved-By:  Ron Young <ronyoung@NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Ron Young <ronyoung@nortelnetworks.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] FW: question about Mobility Support in IPv6
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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-----Original Message-----
From: jcliu@itri.org.tw [mailto:jcliu@itri.org.tw]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:16 AM
To: MOBILE-IP
Subject: question about Mobility Support in IPv6


I have a question about establishing forwarding from a previous
care-of-address (10.9 in draft-ietf-mobileip-ipv6-12.txt).
I know this section describes how to forward packet as mobile node from a
foreign network to another foreign network.

In MIPv4, the previous foreign agent can buffer packets and send to  mobile
node as mobile node move to another foreign. This operatio can delete
packets loss.
But in MIPv6, there is no foreign agent.
The MIPv6 draft said "the mobile node sends a Binding Update to any home
agent on the link on which the previous care-of-address is located,
indicating this previous acre-of-address as the home address for the
binding"
Assumption in hard handoff situation, the home agent in the above descrition
can buffer packets and send to mobile node as like foreign agent in MIPv4??
But maybe before 1 second, correspending node send packets directly to
mobile node.
after 1 second, the mobile node moves from the foreign network to another
foreign network.
Who can buufer these packets during 1 second??
I am confuse about this operation during movement betwork foreign networks.


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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> jcliu@itri.org.tw
[mailto:jcliu@itri.org.tw]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:16
AM<BR><B>To:</B> MOBILE-IP<BR><B>Subject:</B> question about Mobility Support in
IPv6<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I have a question about establishing forwarding from a
previous care-of-address (10.9 in draft-ietf-mobileip-ipv6-12.txt).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I know this section describes how to forward packet as mobile
node from a foreign network to another foreign network.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>In MIPv4, the previous foreign agent can buffer packets and
send to&nbsp; mobile node as mobile node move to another foreign. This operatio
can delete packets loss. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But in MIPv6, there is no foreign agent. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The MIPv6 draft&nbsp;said "the mobile node sends a Binding
Update to any home agent on the link on which the previous care-of-address is
located, indicating this previous acre-of-address as the home address for the
binding"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Assumption in hard handoff situation, the home agent&nbsp;in
the above&nbsp;descrition can buffer packets and send to mobile node as
like&nbsp;foreign agent in MIPv4??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But&nbsp;maybe before 1 second, correspending node send
packets directly to mobile node.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>after 1 second, the mobile node moves from the foreign network
to another foreign network.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Who can buufer these packets during 1 second??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I am confuse about this operation during movement betwork
foreign networks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C03F4A.19458490--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 26 10:09:08 2000
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Reply-To: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: DATELINE EXTENSION: IPDPS-2001 Workshop on
              PDCIssues in
              WNMC
X-To:         Ron Young <ronyoung@nortelnetworks.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Ron,

In this case, the cure has been far worse than the disease.
Now, I cannot tell who sent the e-mail, and I can't select
on that field.

Moreover, I would rather not have to read through:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kwan-Wu Chin [mailto:kwchin@arc.corp.mot.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:27 AM
> To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Subject: DATELINE EXTENSION: IPDPS-2001 Workshop on PDC Issues in WNMC
>
> This  message  was  originally  submitted  by  kwchin@ARC.CORP.MOT.COM  to
> the
> MOBILE-IP list at  STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM. If you simply  forward it
> back
> to the  list, using a  mail command that  generates "Resent-" fields  (ask
> your
> local user  support or  consult the  documentation of your  mail program  if
> in
> doubt), it will be distributed and the explanations you are now reading will
> be
> removed automatically.  If on  the other  hand you  edit the  contributions
> you
> receive  into a  digest,  you  will have  to  remove  this paragraph
> manually.
> Finally, you should be able to contact  the author of this message by using
> the
> normal "reply" function of your mail program.
>
> ---------------- Message requiring your approval (154 lines)

before I get to read anything of actual interest.

I hope this can be fixed.  I don't love spam, but it's far better
than this alternative.

Regards,
Charlie P.


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Patrice Calhoun <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] FW: DATELINE EXTENSION: IPDPS-2001 Workshop on
              PDCIssues in              WNMC
X-To:         "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  "Your message with ID" <39F83A0C.6C63E155@iprg.nokia.com>

There is unfortunately no real great solution to eliminating SPAM. On my
mailing lists, I restrict postings to people that are subscribed to the list.
Of course, the problem that we are seeing is that some people have subscribed
using their aliases (e.g. pcalhoun@eng.sun.com, as opposed to
pat.calhoun@eng.sun.com). Such people can no longer post, unless they change
their subscription parameters on the list.

So, I would propose the following:
1. Let messages bounce if the sender is not on the list. Do not forward such
e-mails to the list yourself (it is rather confusing). It is agravating for
the sender, but they'll get over it once they get their subscription changed.
2. Let the list members worry about changing their own subscription
information.

my 2 cents,

PatC


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From: Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@era.ericsson.se>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Tom_K._Weckstr=F6m=22?=" <tweckstr@cc.hut.fi>,
              Charlie Perkins <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
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Hello Tom,

here is part two of my answer to your comments. (if you didn't see the
first one, it's probably because I sent it from the wrong address, and it
went via the moderator)

These comments are all about the issue of different message types for
regional registrations. Summary: I still think it's the best way. See my
arguments below.

/Annika

At 02:02 2000-10-25 +0300, Tom K. Weckström wrote:
>
>
>Hello Charlie,
>
>Here comes my lengthy comments about reg-tunnel-03. Sorry for a long
>email, but there were lots of things to comment.
>I hope the ASCII graphics is not distorted.
>I found quite many issues.
>Some of them might be possible to solve with more explanations (maybe
>I just did not get the ideas). Some of the issues should be solved in
>other ways. More ideas below. Read on.
>
>Regards,
>       Tom
>
>
>COMMENTS TO draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt
>
>Tom Weckström
>
>Legend:
>+ = A positive note
>- = A negative note, criticism
>? = A question
>! = Exclamation, either a critical issue or an important suggestion
>idea
>--> = conclusion mark
>
>Ch 1.
>+ Decision power at MN: regional or home registration possible
>? Is it always good to let the MN deicde what kind of registration to
>use?
>? What are the benefits in giving the MN the right to decide?
>
>- Different registration types makes the protocol more complex
>  - Changes to std RFC2002 MN
>  - Changes to FAs
>

It has nothing to do with benefits. As I see it it is a _necessity_ for the
MN to know who will process the registration, the HA or an FA, because it
needs to know what security association to use (I feel I am repeating
myself;-). It is possible that it could be solved by having the MN add both
the home and the visited authentication and both the home and the visited
replay protection (in case of nounces), and then let the network take the
actual decision, but that introduces even more complexity in the MN. 

<snip...>

>"We assume that there exist established
>   security associations between a GFA and the regional foreign
>   agents beneath it."
>---> This implies the RFAs HAVE to know their GFA.
>---> Satwant Kaur's scenario with RFA not knowing the GFA is
>impossible.
>---> No need for different message types for regional and home
>registration.
>---> More transparency and simpleness achieved.
>

You are right, but my example still holds! I will repeat it here:

"The MN is allowed to try
to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does not
know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old GFA is
the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
registration would fail."


<snip...>

>3.5.1.
>
>" it is necessary to distinguish regional registrations from home
>   registration.  Thus, we introduce new message types for the
>   Regional Registration messages."
>
>? Could we make the distinction by defining that every registration
>with a valid MN-FA auth ext is a regional registration? Furthermore,
>if there is no MN-FA auth ext or if that extension is invalid, the FAs
>forward the message upwards in the hierarchy.
>Example: Consider an N-level hierarchy. See image below:
>
>                                 ------
>                                 | HA |
>                                 ------
>                                   |
>                               (Internet)
>                                   |
>                                -------
>                                | GFA |
>                                -------
>                              /         \
>                      -------             -------
>                      | FA1 |             | FA2 |
>                      -------             -------
>                       /   \               /   \
>                 -------   -------   -------   -------
>                 | FA3 |   | FA4 |   | FA5 |   | FA6 |
>                 -------   -------   -------   -------
>                                  \
>                                   \
>                                 ------
>                                 | MN |
>                                 ------
>
>                  Figure 1: Mobility Agent Hierarchy
>
>
>! Now, if MN is registered to FA4 and changes to FA6, then it sends
>the
>registration request to FA6 and FA6 does not know the MN-FA auth ext
>in the registration neither has it heard of MN before (no mobility
>bindings existing for MN). Then FA6 jsut forwards the request upwards
>to FA2. FA2 also does not have a clue about MN, so it too forwards the
>request upwards. Finally, GFA knows the MN from its bindings and also
>can validate the MN-FA auth ext. Eventually, this registration became
>regional. Now, if there were no MN-FA auth ext, or if it was invalid,
>also the GFA would have forwarded the message - now to the HA.  Maybe
>an invalid auth extensions should result in request denial if the MN
>is known to the FA (i.e. there is a binding for the MN in the
>FA). After all the MN is known, and the authentication does not match.
>
>! Anyway, there seems to be no need for separate regional and home
>registration messages. The MN still has the choice to either include
>the FA-MN auth ext or leave it away.
>
>! NOTE, that this is directly applicable to N-level hierarchies!
>
>

I agree, it could be done in this way, but you still need a change to an
RFC2002 MN, since it will always include the MN-FA auth. ext if it has an
SA with the FA (that is mandatory). Secondly, one argument that persuaded
us that different message types is a "cleaner" solution is that we didn't
like the idea to use e.g. the auth. ext. to let an FA decide what it
"thinks" that the MN wants. This is why: normally if the authentication
fails, this error should be reported back to the MN and no registration be
made. The authentication could fail for several reasons! It feels wrong,
both "decisionwise" and "securitywise", to use this failure to authenticate
the message as an indication of something that the MN wants the FA to do.

<snip...>



>
>
>6.1.
>
>
>"
>  GFA IP Address
>      The IP address of the Gateway Foreign Agent.  (Replaces
>       Home Agent field in Registration Request message
>       in [9].)
>
>      Care-of Address
>                 Care-of address of local foreign agent; MAY be set to
>                 zero.
>"
>
>? Why should the HA field be replaced? There is the COA field to
>be used for the GFA IP addr. The FAs in the hierarchy can use
>extensions or directly the source IP of the outer header to get the
>address of the "lower" agent in the hierarchy as the registration
>traverses upwards.
>
>? Why is the COA field filled with the local COA?  The lowest FA
>always knows behind which interface the MN is.  The FA aboe the lowest
>FA knows the interface from which the first reg.request came and also
>the IP of the lowest FA. This continues from the bottom of the FA tree
>to the top, i.e., the GFA. ALL that is needed in MIP sense is the GFA
>IP in the COA field and this is for the HA. The hierarchy of FAs
>handles the tunneling in the hierarhcy by other means.
>
>

Why use extensions when we don't have to? In a regional registration the HA
address is not needed, so we reuse that field. Actually, the GFA kind of
acts as a "local HA", so doing it in this way makes it very consistent with
RFC2002.

>
>
>A.
>
>" - a mobile node must be able to distinguish between regional
>     registrations and home registrations, because when it uses
>     regional registration, the nounces are not synchronized with its
>     home agent;"
>
>! Dynamics works with nonces also, and it supports regional
>registrations. I have to find out how the nonce synchronization is
>done in Dynamics. Perhaps the lack of FA-MN auth ext (again) is enough
>for the MN to control between home and regional registrations.
>
>

It would be interesting to see your solution.

<snip...>


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From: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@cisco.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@era.ericsson.se>
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At 05:55 PM 26/10/00 +0200, Annika Jonsson wrote:
>Hello Tom,
>
>here is part two of my answer to your comments. (if you didn't see the
>first one, it's probably because I sent it from the wrong address, and it
>went via the moderator)
>
>These comments are all about the issue of different message types for
>regional registrations. Summary: I still think it's the best way. See my
>arguments below.
>
>/Annika
>
>At 02:02 2000-10-25 +0300, Tom K. Weckström wrote:
>>
>>
>>Hello Charlie,
>>
>>Here comes my lengthy comments about reg-tunnel-03. Sorry for a long
>>email, but there were lots of things to comment.
>>I hope the ASCII graphics is not distorted.
>>I found quite many issues.
>>Some of them might be possible to solve with more explanations (maybe
>>I just did not get the ideas). Some of the issues should be solved in
>>other ways. More ideas below. Read on.
>>
>>Regards,
>>       Tom
>>
>>
>>COMMENTS TO draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt
>>
>>Tom Weckström
>>
>>Legend:
>>+ = A positive note
>>- = A negative note, criticism
>>? = A question
>>! = Exclamation, either a critical issue or an important suggestion
>>idea
>>--> = conclusion mark
>>
>>Ch 1.
>>+ Decision power at MN: regional or home registration possible
>>? Is it always good to let the MN deicde what kind of registration to
>>use?
>>? What are the benefits in giving the MN the right to decide?
>>
>>- Different registration types makes the protocol more complex
>>  - Changes to std RFC2002 MN
>>  - Changes to FAs
>>
>
>It has nothing to do with benefits. As I see it it is a _necessity_ for the
>MN to know who will process the registration, the HA or an FA, because it
>needs to know what security association to use (I feel I am repeating
>myself;-). It is possible that it could be solved by having the MN add both
>the home and the visited authentication and both the home and the visited

You need not do this (adding two authentications) . Because, if you knew to
 send a reg registration, then the
mobile knows which security association and reply to use, and the network can 
validate that. May be I am missing something.

Since you are saying it (the decision to use new messages) has nothing to do with benifits, if 
what you said above is not true, then we should use the extension method.

Thanks
-Gopal


>replay protection (in case of nounces), and then let the network take the
>actual decision, but that introduces even more complexity in the MN. 


><snip...>
>
>>"We assume that there exist established
>>   security associations between a GFA and the regional foreign
>>   agents beneath it."
>>---> This implies the RFAs HAVE to know their GFA.
>>---> Satwant Kaur's scenario with RFA not knowing the GFA is
>>impossible.
>>---> No need for different message types for regional and home
>>registration.
>>---> More transparency and simpleness achieved.
>>
>
>You are right, but my example still holds! I will repeat it here:
>
>"The MN is allowed to try
>to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
>that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does not
>know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
>that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old GFA is
>the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
>registration would fail."
>
>
><snip...>
>
>>3.5.1.
>>
>>" it is necessary to distinguish regional registrations from home
>>   registration.  Thus, we introduce new message types for the
>>   Regional Registration messages."
>>
>>? Could we make the distinction by defining that every registration
>>with a valid MN-FA auth ext is a regional registration? Furthermore,
>>if there is no MN-FA auth ext or if that extension is invalid, the FAs
>>forward the message upwards in the hierarchy.
>>Example: Consider an N-level hierarchy. See image below:
>>
>>                                 ------
>>                                 | HA |
>>                                 ------
>>                                   |
>>                               (Internet)
>>                                   |
>>                                -------
>>                                | GFA |
>>                                -------
>>                              /         \
>>                      -------             -------
>>                      | FA1 |             | FA2 |
>>                      -------             -------
>>                       /   \               /   \
>>                 -------   -------   -------   -------
>>                 | FA3 |   | FA4 |   | FA5 |   | FA6 |
>>                 -------   -------   -------   -------
>>                                  \
>>                                   \
>>                                 ------
>>                                 | MN |
>>                                 ------
>>
>>                  Figure 1: Mobility Agent Hierarchy
>>
>>
>>! Now, if MN is registered to FA4 and changes to FA6, then it sends
>>the
>>registration request to FA6 and FA6 does not know the MN-FA auth ext
>>in the registration neither has it heard of MN before (no mobility
>>bindings existing for MN). Then FA6 jsut forwards the request upwards
>>to FA2. FA2 also does not have a clue about MN, so it too forwards the
>>request upwards. Finally, GFA knows the MN from its bindings and also
>>can validate the MN-FA auth ext. Eventually, this registration became
>>regional. Now, if there were no MN-FA auth ext, or if it was invalid,
>>also the GFA would have forwarded the message - now to the HA.  Maybe
>>an invalid auth extensions should result in request denial if the MN
>>is known to the FA (i.e. there is a binding for the MN in the
>>FA). After all the MN is known, and the authentication does not match.
>>
>>! Anyway, there seems to be no need for separate regional and home
>>registration messages. The MN still has the choice to either include
>>the FA-MN auth ext or leave it away.
>>
>>! NOTE, that this is directly applicable to N-level hierarchies!
>>
>>
>
>I agree, it could be done in this way, but you still need a change to an
>RFC2002 MN, since it will always include the MN-FA auth. ext if it has an
>SA with the FA (that is mandatory). Secondly, one argument that persuaded
>us that different message types is a "cleaner" solution is that we didn't
>like the idea to use e.g. the auth. ext. to let an FA decide what it
>"thinks" that the MN wants. This is why: normally if the authentication
>fails, this error should be reported back to the MN and no registration be
>made. The authentication could fail for several reasons! It feels wrong,
>both "decisionwise" and "securitywise", to use this failure to authenticate
>the message as an indication of something that the MN wants the FA to do.
>
><snip...>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>6.1.
>>
>>
>>"
>>  GFA IP Address
>>      The IP address of the Gateway Foreign Agent.  (Replaces
>>       Home Agent field in Registration Request message
>>       in [9].)
>>
>>      Care-of Address
>>                 Care-of address of local foreign agent; MAY be set to
>>                 zero.
>>"
>>
>>? Why should the HA field be replaced? There is the COA field to
>>be used for the GFA IP addr. The FAs in the hierarchy can use
>>extensions or directly the source IP of the outer header to get the
>>address of the "lower" agent in the hierarchy as the registration
>>traverses upwards.
>>
>>? Why is the COA field filled with the local COA?  The lowest FA
>>always knows behind which interface the MN is.  The FA aboe the lowest
>>FA knows the interface from which the first reg.request came and also
>>the IP of the lowest FA. This continues from the bottom of the FA tree
>>to the top, i.e., the GFA. ALL that is needed in MIP sense is the GFA
>>IP in the COA field and this is for the HA. The hierarchy of FAs
>>handles the tunneling in the hierarhcy by other means.
>>
>>
>
>Why use extensions when we don't have to? In a regional registration the HA
>address is not needed, so we reuse that field. Actually, the GFA kind of
>acts as a "local HA", so doing it in this way makes it very consistent with
>RFC2002.
>
>>
>>
>>A.
>>
>>" - a mobile node must be able to distinguish between regional
>>     registrations and home registrations, because when it uses
>>     regional registration, the nounces are not synchronized with its
>>     home agent;"
>>
>>! Dynamics works with nonces also, and it supports regional
>>registrations. I have to find out how the nonce synchronization is
>>done in Dynamics. Perhaps the lack of FA-MN auth ext (again) is enough
>>for the MN to control between home and regional registrations.
>>
>>
>
>It would be interesting to see your solution.
>
><snip...>


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From: Gopal Dommety <gdommety@cisco.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Charlie Perkins <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
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At 03:15 PM 23/10/00 -0700, Charlie Perkins wrote:
>Hello Tom,
>
>> I discovered the 'hidden' assumption of RFAs and their GFA knowing
>> abouit each other from the draft. :-)
>
>It wasn't intended to be hidden.  How can we make it more explicit?


Would help if you could make this assumption explicit.

thanks
Gopal




>> I will check the security association issue more closely.
>> I am not completely convinced that there needs to be a separate
>> message type for different uses of security associations.
>> Why couldn't the FAs automatically consider the registration as a home
>> reg if there is not acceptable sec association used for FA-MN
>> authentication?
>
>Because the mobile node is very likely to want to send a home
>registration whenever it feels like renewing its current care-of
>address, thereby increasing the lifetime.  We do not want to make
>any implicit judgements about type of registration based on the
>remaining registratoin lifetime.  That sounds like a really bad idea.
>
>At any time, the mobile node should be allowed to send either a
>home registration or a regional registration, subject only to the
>constraint that the lifetime of the regional registration should not
>exceed the lifetime of the regional registration.
>
>> I will send my comment later.
>> Hopefully not too late. :-/
>> When does the last call end?
>
>I think formally it might have ended a month ago, but the purpose
>after all is to find out if the draft is ready for advancement.  So,
>I think it's just fine to ask questions.  So far, the main comments
>we have gotten about necessary changes is to put in more details
>about running in the mode where the "first" foreign agent becomes
>the GFA (what others have called "anchoring").
>
>Other than that, I think we're ready to go depending on your
>comments.
>
>Regards,
>Charlie P.
>
>Annika Jonsson wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Hi Tom,
>> >
>> > see comments below.
>> >
>> > At 23:55 2000-10-21 +0300, Tom K. Weckström wrote:
>> > >Hi,
>> > >
>> > >In my opinion, additional messages makes the protocol partly clearer,
>> > >but partly more complex.
>> > >
>> > >Here are my questions (please point me to the appropriate messages, if
>> > >these questions have already been discussed :)
>> > >
>> > >- Is it possible/needed that a FA does not know the GFA or GFAs above
>> > >it?
>> > >I think FAs and GFAs should have trust relationships = knowledge of
>> > >each other.
>> >
>> > Yes, FA:s and GFA:s need to know about each other. That is also stated in
>> > the draft (well, indirectly, since it says that they need to have
>> > established security associations between them).
>> >
>> > >
>> > >- Why do we need to add intelligence to the mobile node?
>> > >Having a totally transparent hierarchy is possible. The MN would speak
>> > >standard RFC2002 MIP and would still get the best efficiency in
>> > >registrations through the regionalized handoffs. By defining new
>> > >messages we do add intelligence to MN. It must know what kind of
>> > >registrations to send.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Because, as I said in my last mail, the MN needs to know if the
>> > registration request will be processed in the home or in the visited domain
>> > to know which security association and replay protection to use. We didn't
>> > find any way to get around this. But another goal is to support RFC2002
>> > MN:s also. In this draft, they don't get the benefits of the regional
>> > registrations, but they will work.
>> >
>> > /Annika
>> >
>> > >And my totally subjective opinion:
>> > >  ;-)
>> > >Despite the lively discussion about regionalized handoffs etc., I
>> > >still have not seen many transparent, fast and *implemented*
>> > >approaches. If the ideas in the drafts have been implemented, please
>> > >provide the community some links to the material. Dynamics  - HUT
>> > >Mobile IP has been rocking for 1.5 years now. Dynamics is transparent
>> > >to the Mobile Node and still provides fast handoffs.
>> > >
>> > >Should we write a competing draft? ;-) We didn't do it in the first
>> > >place because we felt it would just slow down the fast handoff design
>> > >process. Unfortunately the process has been unbelievably slow. I am
>> > >really looking forward to a solution in this issue.
>> > >
>> > >Regards,
>> > >        Tom
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
>> > >                                Helsinki University of Technology
>> > >                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi
>> > >
>> > >http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Satwant Kaur wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> Hello,
>> > >>
>> > >> I am implementing the Regional Registration
>> > >> (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt), and I agree with Annika that it is
>> > >> important for FA and GFA to be able to make the distinction between the
>> > Home
>> > >> Registration Request (type 1) and Regional Registration Request (type 2)
>> > >> messages. Furthermore, the mobility Agents should also be able to make a
>> > >> distinction between Registration Reply (type 3) and Regional registration
>> > >> reply (type 4).
>> > >>
>> > >> Another case where a similar problem would arise:
>> > >>
>> > >> Suppose MN wants to do Home Registration with a FA who does not advertise
>> > >> itself. MN wants to be assigned a GFA and so it sends a Home Registration
>> > >> Request (type 1) with careof field as 0, and HA address in the Home Agent
>> > >> field.
>> > >>
>> > >> Now, if we do not have additional message types to be able to make a
>> > >> distinction between type 1 and type 2 Registration requests, the FA will
>> > >> have no way of knowing if (1) It is a home Registration with MN asking
>> > to be
>> > >> assigned a GFA for home Registration, or (2) It is a Regional Registration
>> > >> (with FA set to 0, since FA did not advertise itself).
>> > >>
>> > >> FA can (mis)interpret it as type 2 message. It will incorrectly assume that
>> > >> the HA address is really the GFA that the MN wants to register with. It
>> > will
>> > >> then forward the request to its HA address under the assumption it is
>> > really
>> > >> the GFA, instead of assigning a GFA address, and forwarding the
>> > registration
>> > >> to the assigned GFA.
>> > >>
>> > >> The above problem arose since FA reads the registration requests sent by
>> > MN,
>> > >> and forwards them to GFA. In the absence of the message type that would
>> > >> enable FA to make a distinction between home registration request (type 1)
>> > >> and regional registration request (type 2), the FA does not know where to
>> > >> send the request to. The GFA address lies in the Home Agent field in
>> > case of
>> > >> type 2 and in the careof field in case of type 1 message. If the additional
>> > >> type 2 message is not there, FA cannot make the distinction between Home Vs
>> > >> Regional Registration Request.
>> > >>
>> > >> Similar problems will arise at GFA level, since when the GFA reads the
>> > >> Registration Requests sent out by FA, and either forwards them to HA (in
>> > >> case of Home Registration) or sends the reply back to FA (in case of
>> > >> Regional Registration). If the type 2 message type is not there, GFA cannot
>> > >> make the distinction between Home and Regional Registration. And it would
>> > >> not know whether to send it forward to HA, or to send reply back to FA.
>> > >>
>> > >> Similar problems will also arise on the way back for Registration Reply
>> > >> messages at FA and GFA, if type 4 is not present.
>> > >>
>> > >> Apart from the problems in the above special cases, I also do not favor
>> > >> using anything other than message types to understand what type of
>> > >> registration /registration reply it is. The reason is if one uses some
>> > other
>> > >> characteristics of the packets (in this case, the extensions) other than
>> > its
>> > >> "type" to identify the type of packets, it is against the spirit of
>> > >> assigning the right job to the right field. It may also give us grief down
>> > >> the road as it would restrict our freedom to use extensions in different
>> > and
>> > >> more creative ways in future.
>> > >>
>> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> From: "Annika Jonsson" <annika.jonsson@ERICSSON.COM>
>> > >> To: <MOBILE-IP@standards.nortelnetworks.com>
>> > >> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:54 AM
>> > >> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] WG Last
>> > >> Call -(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hi Gopal,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > as Charlie say's, we have discussed this a lot. Here are some of our
>> > >> > reasoning. The home and the regional registrations will always differ
>> > >> > because of different replay protection and security associations for the
>> > >> > authentication extensions. Furthermore, the FA has to be able to handle
>> > >> > many different cases: a) normal RFC2002 registration b) home registration
>> > >> > through GFA (to prepare for regional registrations) c) home registration
>> > >> > with GFA set to zero (to ask that a GFA be assigned) d)regional
>> > >> > registration e) regional registration with FA set to zero (in case FA
>> > does
>> > >> > not advertise itself).
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Therefore we think that using different message types to separate the
>> > >> > handling of the home and the regional registration messages would make it
>> > >> > simpler for the FA:s. I can give you one example: The MN is allowed to
>> > try
>> > >> > to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
>> > >> > that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does
>> > not
>> > >> > know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
>> > >> > that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old
>> > GFA is
>> > >> > the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
>> > >> > registration would fail.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > /Annika
>> > >> >
>> > >> > At 22:35 2000-10-11 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:
>> > >> > >Charlie,
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >1.  If you can perform a global registration via the hierarchy with out
>> > >> > requiring new messages, it is
>> > >> > >possible to do regional reg without introducing the new messages.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >2. The difference between the reg and global registration should be
>> > where
>> > >> > the registration finally gets processed and reg reply is generated (i.e,
>> > >> in
>> > >> > one case the it goes through the GFA to the HA and gets processed there,
>> > >> in
>> > >> > the regional case
>> > >> > >it is processed by the common GFA between the old and the new paths - if
>> > >> > more than two levels of hierarchy is employed)..
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >3. The reasons you have given in the Appendix for introducing new
>> > >> messages
>> > >> > are given below:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >                -  a mobile node must be able to distinguish
>> > >> > >                            between regional registrations and home
>> > >> > >                            registrations, because when it uses
>> > >> > >                            regional registration, the nounces are not
>> > >> > >                            synchronized with its home agent;
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >                         -  a mobile node can use a zero care-of
>> > >> > >                            address either to request a GFA (in a home
>> > >> > >                            registration) or to signify the use of an
>> > >> > >                            unspecified regional foreign agent (in a
>> > >> > >                            regional registration).
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >Both these can be equally easily handled with the extensions approach.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >more comments below:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >>> 1. What is the fundamental reason for introducing  new  regional
>> > >> > registration request/reply messages. I think
>> > >> > >>> this is unnecessary introduction of new message types.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>We puzzled over this for quite a while, more than one time.
>> > >> > >>There is discussion about the reasons for the change in
>> > >> > >>Appendix A. We think that processing is very much more
>> > >> > >>natural for the case when there are separate message types,
>> > >> > >>instead of extensions to the existing messages.  Clearly,
>> > >> > >>making extensions to the existing messages would have
>> > >> > >>the effect of introducing a lot of additional case analysis
>> > >> > >>into existing code for handling RFC 2002 registration
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >Could you give concrete examples of the cases that cannot be handled by
>> > >> > >an extension.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >>messages.  There are other reasons, as mentioned in the
>> > >> > >>draft appendix, related to allowing for non-disclosure of
>> > >> > >>foreign agent hierarchies.  This is especially true for multiple
>> > >> > >>levels of hierarchy.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >don't see why multiple hierarchies is a problem.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >moreover, if we are employing multiple hierarchies, if will apply to the
>> > >> > home registration also.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >>>  a) You are using extensions for the initial registration through the
>> > >> > GFA. You could as well use the extensions for achieving regional
>> > >> > >>> registrations.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>That is different, because the initial registration _is_ a home
>> > >> > registration.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >It should not be, other than the fact who is supposed to processes the
>> > >> > message and the extensions.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >>> b) In fact your version 02 of the draft
>> > >> > (draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-02.txt) does not have these new messages.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>We couldn't make it work very well that way in all cases, as I've
>> > >> alluded
>> > >> > to already.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>> Unless there is a good reason, I think you should use extensions.
>> > >> Using
>> > >> > existing messages with extensions makes
>> > >> > >>> implementation easier and cleaner (we have seen that in implementing
>> > >> > anchor handoff draft draft-dommety-mobileip-anchor-handoff-02.txt).
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>On the contrary, I really think that using new messages makes the
>> > >> > implementation
>> > >> > >>easier and cleaner, exactly because then the implementation does not
>> > >> have
>> > >> > to build
>> > >> > >>up as much global state and case analysis.  Furthermore, as I have
>> > >> > mentioned already,
>> > >> > >>there are cases that cannot be handled as easily with extensions.  I
>> > >> > think that the
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >could you provide concrete examples of what cases cannot be handeled?
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >Regards,
>> > >> > >Gopal
>> > >> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >
>>
>> --
>>         Tom Weckström           tweckstr@cc.hut.fi
>>         Korppaanmäentie 16 B 14 Helsinki University of Technology
>>         00300 Helsinki          Department of Computer Science
>>         040-5642709             http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~tweckstr


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 26 14:53:33 2000
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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
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Hello Gopal,

At 05:55 PM 26/10/00 +0200, Annika Jonsson wrote:

>> It has nothing to do with benefits. As I see it it is a _necessity_ for the
>> MN to know who will process the registration, the HA or an FA, because it
>> needs to know what security association to use (I feel I am repeating
>> myself;-). It is possible that it could be solved by having the MN add both
>> the home and the visited authentication and both the home and the visited

Gopal Dommety wrote:

> You need not do this (adding two authentications).  Because, if you knew to
> send a reg registration, then the  mobile knows which security association
> and reply to use, and the network can validate that.  May be I am missing
> something.

If the mobile node sends a home registration, then it needs to use
the security association with the home agent.

If the mobile node sends a regional registration, then it needs to
use the security association with the regional mobility agent
(e.g., GFA).

The mobile node does know which security association to use,
depending on which kind of registration it is performing.

What does it mean, "the network can validate that"?

> Since you are saying it (the decision to use new messages) has nothing
> to do with benifits, if what you said above is not true, then we should
> use the extension method.

The decision has to do with protocol correctness, feature availability,
and enabling natural processing techniques for the mobile entities.
I think this is the bottom line on what others have said.

Regards,
Charlie P.


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 26 16:04:19 2000
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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
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Hello Tom,

At 02:02 2000-10-25 +0300, Tom K. Weckström wrote:

> "and it SHOULD be protected by an FA-FA Authentication extension."
> ? Where is FA-FA auth ext described? In another draft, I suppose.

This is a subtype of the Mobile IP Generalized Authentication,
which is described in draft-ietf-mobileip-challenge-13.txt,
as mentioned in section 7.  The referenced draft has, I think,
passed through Last Call and is awaiting publication -- but I
might be wrong on this.

We should put more cross-references in.

Regards,
Charlie P.


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From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi folks,

     just a reminder that we're taking requests for slots in the Mobile IP
meeting.   Let us know the name of the presenter, the name of
the I-D, and the amount of time requested.

Thanks,
Phil


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@cc.hut.fi>
Organization: HUT
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@era.ericsson.se>
X-cc:         Charlie Perkins <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
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Hi,

I am slowly starting to "buy" the idea of separate message types for
regional and home registrations... More comments below.

I am waiting your reply about the other issues I mentioned. Here is a
brief checklist of issues not handled in this email (or in your
reply).

        - Revealing the hierarchy in advertisements
                        vs
        - Using previous FA NAI extensions


        * Limiting the solution to 2 levels
                        vs
        * Making generic solution that is ready for N-levels.


        o Forcing registrations from co-located COA to GFA
                        vs
        o Always using the optimal RFA for handling the registrations


        x Possibility to use HA hirarchies (possibly another draft).



Annika Jonsson wrote:
>
> These comments are all about the issue of different message types for
> regional registrations. Summary: I still think it's the best way. See my
> arguments below.
>
> /Annika
> >
> >COMMENTS TO draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt
> >

>
> It has nothing to do with benefits. As I see it it is a _necessity_ for the
> MN to know who will process the registration, the HA or an FA, because it
> needs to know what security association to use (I feel I am repeating
> myself;-). It is possible that it could be solved by having the MN add both
> the home and the visited authentication and both the home and the visited
> replay protection (in case of nounces), and then let the network take the
> actual decision, but that introduces even more complexity in the MN.
>
> <snip...>
>
> >"We assume that there exist established
> >   security associations between a GFA and the regional foreign
> >   agents beneath it."
> >---> This implies the RFAs HAVE to know their GFA.
> >---> Satwant Kaur's scenario with RFA not knowing the GFA is
> >impossible.
> >---> No need for different message types for regional and home
> >registration.
> >---> More transparency and simpleness achieved.
> >
>
> You are right, but my example still holds! I will repeat it here:
>
> "The MN is allowed to try
> to do a regional registration to the GFA it has been using, even though
> that GFA is not advertised by the new FA. In this case, if the FA does not
> know this GFA it must send back an error to the MN. If the FA didn't know
> that this was a regional registration, it would assume that the old GFA is
> the MN:s HA, and that this was a normal RFC2002 registration, and the
> registration would fail."

Yes, MN needs to be able to control what kind of registration it
requests.

Your problem in the example above comes from a case where you would
use GFA's IP in the HA field and only one type of registration
message. That is the wrong way, we both know that.

We end up to two alternatives already presented, but I write them here
to make WG "voting" easier:

A)      Use separate message types for regional and home registrations.
        Use FA IP in the "HA field" of the regional registration.
        Actually, if this is a separate message type, then the RFC's
        sepcification is not misused, because we are talking about an
        entiryl new message here. :)

B)      Use only one registration request message type.
        Add FA-MN auth.ext. to registration, if regional registration
        is requested. Always use HA IP in its field.
        The registration can still be forwarded up to HA, if FAs decide so.
        MN will know the "destiny" of the registration only when regreply
        arrives. (with Home auth ext. or with foreign auth ext.)


> <snip...>
>
> >3.5.1.
> >
> >" it is necessary to distinguish regional registrations from home
> >   registration.  Thus, we introduce new message types for the
> >   Regional Registration messages."
> >
> >? Could we make the distinction by defining that every registration
> >with a valid MN-FA auth ext is a regional registration? Furthermore,
> >if there is no MN-FA auth ext or if that extension is invalid, the FAs
> >forward the message upwards in the hierarchy.
> >Example: Consider an N-level hierarchy. See image below:
> >
> >                                 ------
> >                                 | HA |
> >                                 ------
> >                                   |
> >                               (Internet)
> >                                   |
> >                                -------
> >                                | GFA |
> >                                -------
> >                              /         \
> >                      -------             -------
> >                      | FA1 |             | FA2 |
> >                      -------             -------
> >                       /   \               /   \
> >                 -------   -------   -------   -------
> >                 | FA3 |   | FA4 |   | FA5 |   | FA6 |
> >                 -------   -------   -------   -------
> >                                  \
> >                                   \
> >                                 ------
> >                                 | MN |
> >                                 ------
> >
> >                  Figure 1: Mobility Agent Hierarchy
> >
> >
> >! Now, if MN is registered to FA4 and changes to FA6, then it sends
> >the
> >registration request to FA6 and FA6 does not know the MN-FA auth ext
> >in the registration neither has it heard of MN before (no mobility
> >bindings existing for MN). Then FA6 jsut forwards the request upwards
> >to FA2. FA2 also does not have a clue about MN, so it too forwards the
> >request upwards. Finally, GFA knows the MN from its bindings and also
> >can validate the MN-FA auth ext. Eventually, this registration became
> >regional. Now, if there were no MN-FA auth ext, or if it was invalid,
> >also the GFA would have forwarded the message - now to the HA.  Maybe
> >an invalid auth extensions should result in request denial if the MN
> >is known to the FA (i.e. there is a binding for the MN in the
> >FA). After all the MN is known, and the authentication does not match.
> >
> >! Anyway, there seems to be no need for separate regional and home
> >registration messages. The MN still has the choice to either include
> >the FA-MN auth ext or leave it away.
> >
> >! NOTE, that this is directly applicable to N-level hierarchies!
> >
> >
>
> I agree, it could be done in this way, but you still need a change to an
> RFC2002 MN, since it will always include the MN-FA auth. ext if it has an
> SA with the FA (that is mandatory). Secondly, one argument that persuaded
> us that different message types is a "cleaner" solution is that we didn't
> like the idea to use e.g. the auth. ext. to let an FA decide what it
> "thinks" that the MN wants. This is why: normally if the authentication
> fails, this error should be reported back to the MN and no registration be
> made. The authentication could fail for several reasons! It feels wrong,
> both "decisionwise" and "securitywise", to use this failure to authenticate
> the message as an indication of something that the MN wants the FA to do.

Couple of additional comments:

- Changes to RFC2002 MN would still be needed - True. We need an MN
taht can leave the foreign euth ext away on purpose to force
registration to HA (when we are using approach B above).

- It would be good that a RFC2002 MN would be using regional
registrations by default when adding the MN-FA auth.ext. by default.
As an Internet user I would be concerned, if a proposed standard would
not act optimally, but rather consumed bandwidth from the Internet
with its non-optimal registration sequences.

- "Failure to authenticate" would for me be: there was a foreign auth
ext. but we could not verify its authenticity.
--> Direct regreply with correct reason code to MN.

- Lack of the auth ext. would not mean "failure", but the FA would
forward the request onwards.


> >? Why should the HA field be replaced?
>
> Why use extensions when we don't have to? In a regional registration the HA
> address is not needed, so we reuse that field. Actually, the GFA kind of
> acts as a "local HA", so doing it in this way makes it very consistent with
> RFC2002.

We come back to options A and B.
As I said, using GFA IP in the new message in option A is OK, since it
is not anymore a RFC2002 registration request but a new type of
request.

> >A.
> >
> >" - a mobile node must be able to distinguish between regional
> >     registrations and home registrations, because when it uses
> >     regional registration, the nounces are not synchronized with its
> >     home agent;"
> >
> >! Dynamics works with nonces also, and it supports regional
> >registrations. I have to find out how the nonce synchronization is
> >done in Dynamics. Perhaps the lack of FA-MN auth ext (again) is enough
> >for the MN to control between home and regional registrations.


I discussed with Jouni. Dynamics can uses nonces for home
registrations, i.e., registration requests without MN-FA auth ext. but
only timestamps are used in registrations with FA-MN auth. ext. This
eliminates the possibility of uncontrolled nonce asynchronization.

> It would be interesting to see your solution.

:-)
Download Dynamics from the URL in my signature.
You are also welcome to visit Finland to see it work.
Unfortunately we do not have any conference papers in pipeline or
budget to travel to WG meetings.

Best regards,
                Tom

--
        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
                                Helsinki University of Technology
                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi

http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/


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From: Johnny Matta <matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Status of draft
              <draft-fhns-rsvp-support-in-mipv6-00.txt>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hello,

Can someone please give me a follow-up on draft =
<draft-fhns-rsvp-support-in-mipv6-00.txt> (November 98, Expires May 99)? =
Is there other work currently underway addressing the issues of RSVP =
integration with Mobile IP?
How about DiffServ issues with Mobile IP?

Thank you.

Johnny M MATTA
Research Engineer
DoCoMo Communications Laboratories USA, Inc.
Email: matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com
Phone: 1-408-451-4727
Fax: 1-408-573-1090
181 Metro Drive Suite 300
San Jose, CA 95110


------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01C03F5B.3CE8AFB0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can someone please give me a follow-up =
on draft=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&lt;draft-fhns-rsvp-support-in-mipv6-00.txt&gt;=20
(November 98, Expires May 99)? Is there other work currently underway =
addressing=20
the issues of RSVP integration with Mobile IP?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>How about DiffServ issues with Mobile=20
IP?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Johnny M MATTA<BR>Research =
Engineer<BR>DoCoMo=20
Communications Laboratories USA, Inc.<BR>Email: </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Phone:=20
1-408-451-4727<BR>Fax: 1-408-573-1090<BR>181 Metro Drive Suite =
300<BR>San Jose,=20
CA 95110<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01C03F5B.3CE8AFB0--


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 26 18:43:10 2000
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From: Jonathan Trostle <jtrostle@cisco.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder
X-To:         Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <DFF2EFB82ADBD311B4BB00508B6F0C5C0176D1E1@il27exm03.cig.mot .com>

I have a draft in this area that I will submit before Nov. 17. What is the deadline for submitting a request for a slot?

Thanks,
Jonathan

At 03:10 PM 10/26/00 -0500, Roberts Philip-qa3445 wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>     just a reminder that we're taking requests for slots in the Mobile IP
>meeting.   Let us know the name of the presenter, the name of
>the I-D, and the amount of time requested.
>
>Thanks,
>Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 26 20:43:59 2000
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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder
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Dear Phil.

On 17 Oct, I sumitted an ID named

                     "SGM Support in Mobile IP"
          <draft-lee-sgm-support-mobileip-00.txt>

and I'm waiting for the approvals from Mobile IP WG chairs as a
WG discussion topic.

If it is approved, I'd like to request a time slot in San Diego meeting.

   Presenter: Jiwoong Lee
   Name of ID: SGM Support in Mobile IP
   Time: 6min

Thank you. Please give me any kind of comment.

Regards,
Jiwoong Lee




----- Original Message -----
From: "Roberts Philip-qa3445" <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
To: <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 5:10 AM
Subject: [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder


> Hi folks,
>
>      just a reminder that we're taking requests for slots in the Mobile IP
> meeting.   Let us know the name of the presenter, the name of
> the I-D, and the amount of time requested.
>
> Thanks,
> Phil


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Thu Oct 26 21:13:08 2000
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From: Marcello Lioy <lioy@qualcomm.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] The prefix length extension
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This may seem a naive question but here goes anyway:

How can the addresses in a router advertisement message have different
prefix lengths?  Shouldn't the addresses that are advertised in these
messages all be on interfaces on the subnet in question?  Doesn't that
imply that they all have the same network prefix length?

What am I missing?

Also why doesn't the prefix length extension refer to the care-of-addresses
rather than the router addresses?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcello Lioy                                          Voice:   x18220
AA-318A                                                Pager: 635-0867


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From: Foo Chun Choong <ccfoo@sparrow.ee.nus.edu.sg>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] Status of draft
              <draft-fhns-rsvp-support-in-mipv6-00.txt>
X-To:         Johnny Matta <matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  <00b401c03f95$e950af70$186015ac@NTTD2GMTPW5TAN>

Hi Johnny,

There was some work addressing RSVP integration with MIPv4 here in NUS.
Do check out http://mip.ee.nus.edu.sg for documents and more details.
Basically, we used "Tunnel Support for RSVP" to enable resource
reservation support within the MIPv4 tunnel. A similar scheme was also
introduced by UCLA.

Best regards,
Foo Chun Choong,
Open Source Software Lab,
National University of Singapore
http://opensource.nus.edu.sg

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Johnny Matta wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> Can someone please give me a follow-up on draft <draft-fhns-rsvp-support-in-mipv6-00.txt> (November 98, Expires May 99)? Is there other work currently underway addressing the issues of RSVP integration with Mobile IP?
> How about DiffServ issues with Mobile IP?
>
> Thank you.
>
> Johnny M MATTA
> Research Engineer
> DoCoMo Communications Laboratories USA, Inc.
> Email: matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com
> Phone: 1-408-451-4727
> Fax: 1-408-573-1090
> 181 Metro Drive Suite 300
> San Jose, CA 95110
>
>


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FYI.

Thank you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

To: IETF-Announce: ;
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-lee-sgm-support-mobileip-00.txt
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 06:31:54 -0400
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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.


 Title  : SGM support in Mobile IP
 Author(s) : J. Lee
 Filename : draft-lee-sgm-support-mobileip-00.txt
 Pages  : 14
 Date  : 17-Oct-00

In the current version of mobile IP a home agent converts a
incoming generic multicast datagram to multiple unicast-
encapsulated datagrams addressed to each mobile node. This kind of
multicast handling logically works, while suffering from the
performance degradation. Small Group Multicast (SGM) is a newly
developed multicast protocol whose level 3.5 header carries
multiple unicast destination addresses [2]. SGM support in mobile
IP enables the home agent to forward a generic multicast datagram
to a foreign agent with one SGM datagram, eliminating the severe
performance degradation.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lee-sgm-support-mobileip-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in,
type "cd internet-drafts" and then
 "get draft-lee-sgm-support-mobileip-00.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
 mailserv@ietf.org.
In the body type:
 "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-lee-sgm-support-mobileip-00.txt".

NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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<ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lee-sgm-support-mobileip-00.txt>
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Fri Oct 27 04:03:25 2000
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From: Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@era.ericsson.se>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Gopal Dommety <gdommety@cisco.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

At 10:23 2000-10-26 -0700, Gopal Dommety wrote:

>>>Ch 1.
>>>+ Decision power at MN: regional or home registration possible
>>>? Is it always good to let the MN deicde what kind of registration to
>>>use?
>>>? What are the benefits in giving the MN the right to decide?
>>>
>>>- Different registration types makes the protocol more complex
>>>  - Changes to std RFC2002 MN
>>>  - Changes to FAs
>>>
>>
>>It has nothing to do with benefits. As I see it it is a _necessity_ for the
>>MN to know who will process the registration, the HA or an FA, because it
>>needs to know what security association to use (I feel I am repeating
>>myself;-). It is possible that it could be solved by having the MN add both
>>the home and the visited authentication and both the home and the visited
>
>You need not do this (adding two authentications) . Because, if you knew to
> send a reg registration, then the
>mobile knows which security association and reply to use, and the network
can
>validate that. May be I am missing something.
>
>Since you are saying it (the decision to use new messages) has nothing to
do with benifits, if
>what you said above is not true, then we should use the extension method.
>


Hi Gopal,

you missunderstood me. I was answering Toms question, and what I meant is:
it is not a "benefit" that the MN decides wich kind of registration it is,
it is necessary (which you agree on). To the question of whether the MN
should indicate this decision with message types or extensions, I still
think it is a great "benefit" that this is done with message types (see my
other comments to Tom).

/Annika

>Thanks
>-Gopal
>
>


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From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] v4 fast handoff drafts
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi folks,

        the v4 fast handoff design team completed its work some time ago now and submitted 2 drafts to the mailing list:
draft-calhoun-mobileip-proactive-fa-02.txt
draft-elmalki-mobileip-fast-handoffs-03.txt

        The design team was unable to reach a consensus on which of these to recommend to the working group to be the working group item for v4 fast handoff.  We anticipated more discussion from the working group, but only saw a few emails and those from people who were on the design team.

        So the chairs would like to solicit the working group for input about which of these two drafts it would like to see as a working group item for fast handoff.   Please review the drafts carefully and provide comments to the list.  We'd ideally like to be able to get some closure before San Diego.

Phil and Raj


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Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Annika Jonsson <annika.jonsson@era.ericsson.se>,
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Hi Annik and WG.

My comments to Annikas first reply, which I somehow managed not to
receive.
Thanks Annika for resending it to me.

Annika Jonsson wrote:
> >>Ch 3.1
> >>? Is there a possibility to make a HA hierarchy as well?
> >>  If not, why then?
> >>--> Possibly another draft. Could be derived from J.K.Malinen's
> >>thesis.
> >>
> >
> >Sure it is, it was included in one of the predecessors to this draft. We
> felt it would be easier to handle it in separate drafts, and we think the
> hierarchical FA:s are more important.

Agreed. This could be handled in another draft. There could also be a
draft about using private addresses in FAs and HAs in the hierarchies
and a solution for allowing duplicate private home addresses for MNs
from different home organizations. These are all solved in Jouni
Malinen's thesis from March/2000. Check it from Dynamics web site (in
signature).


> >>3.1.1.
> >>? Why only assume two levels of FAs in the visited domain?
> >>
> >
> It's mainly for pedagogic reasons. It makes the description of the
> protocol easier and clearer, and also we think that is an important
> scenario. In this way we first describe the basics of the protocol, and
> then add the multiple level hierarchies.

Annika, I have to disagree. Simplifying issues in design may result in
a solution that can not be easily extended - at least not without
breaking backwards compatibility.

Additionally, a 2-level case is just an exception in a hierarchical
environment. I claim one needs to have at least a 3-level example to
demonstrate the different kind of scenarios of regional registrations.
        1. GFA handling the registration (also in 2-level case)
        2. Lowest FA handling the registration (also in 2-level case)
        3. Some intermediate FA handling the registration
           (NOT in the 2-level case)
           Here "intermediate" means any FA between lowest FA and GFA.

So, please improve the draft to handle N-level hierarchies as simply
as 2-level hierarhies, and demonstrate at least the three above
mentioned examples in the draft.

My suggestion is to leave Appendix B to more advanced hierarhcy
discussions if necessary and to include N-level aspect to the actrual
chapters.

> >>3.4.1.
> >>? This makes the possible topologies more cumbersome.
> >>---> Eg. GFA1, ..., GFA4 are all connected to RFA1 and RFA2 and RFA3
> >>and RFA4.
> >>? Why is this needed? For load balancing type of activities?
> >>
> >
> >Yes, we wanted to allow this kind of topology. It can be used for e.g.
> load balancing, or, it could be that an MN should use a specific GFA for
> different reasons.

Ok. Good. No objections on that. :-)


> >>? Does the possibility to set GFA address to zero in the request open
> >>new holes in the security?  E.g. Mallory acts as an additional GFA in
> >>the hierarchy and captures MN's reg.reg. coming from RFA1. This gives
> >>a possibility to intrude as a GFA into MIP signaling. However,
> >>additional bonuses are few. And eventually Mallory could set up his
> >>own ISP.
> >>
> >
> >No, when the reply comes back to the RFA, the FA-FA auth. will fail in
> that case.


You are right.


> >>3.4.2.
> >>
> >>" If the care-of address field is set to zero, the foreign agent
> >>   assigns a GFA to the mobile node, by some means not described in
> >>   this specification, and adds a GFA IP Address extension to the
> >>   Registration Request message."
> >>
> >>? RFA selects the GFA? RFA has no knowledge of GFA conditions (load,
> >>etc.). How could an RFA make the decision? This could be solved with
> >>the topology or by other means, but involves more protocol
> >>intelligence anyway and whence adds to complexity.
> >>
> >
> >We specificaly said: "by some means not described in this specification".
> It's  not necessarily the RFA that decides, but it must have some way of
> finding out which GFA to use, of course.

Please be careful. If some sort of support for this is build to MN
according to the draft/becoming RFC but the mechanism is not in place
for selecting GFA, what will happen then? Have you already planned an
registration erro message for that? ;) Something like: "Feature not
supported".


> >>B.2.
(quotation deleted, see draft, Chapt B.2.)

> >>? So, if the FA hierarchy is not revealed in the advertisements, then
> >>the regional registrations always go to the GFA?

> No. See your quotation above, the first RFA that recognises the MN replies
> (unless the lifetime has expired). This is regardless of whether
> hierarchies are advertised or not.

How do you assure that the bindings in the FA hierarchy remain
consistent when regional registrations are performed in the
"intermediate FAs"?

I read about the reg.reply with zero lifetime down to the "old" FA of
the MN (and the FAs residing on the path between the "old FA" and the
"intermediate FA"). As I told, we called this a "tear down" message
back in Dynamics 0.5 a year ago, but the solution has a race condition
that makes the state of the FA hierarchy inconsistent when packets are
lost and results in severe problems. This is why I recommended the
"previous FA NAI" extension approach that tackles the problem. More
info from Jouni's thesis, or I can explain the solution if desired.

> >Thanks for your feedback!
Thanks, it is great to be able to give the feedback and possibly
improve the becoming RFC. :-)

Best regards,
                Tom

--
        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
                                Helsinki University of Technology
                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi

http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/


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Approved-By:  Satwant Kaur <wizkid11@XNET.COM>
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Date:         Sat, 28 Oct 2000 23:34:18 -0500
Reply-To: Satwant Kaur <wizkid11@xnet.com>
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From: Satwant Kaur <wizkid11@xnet.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom_K._Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@cc.hut.fi>
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Hi Annika, Tom and WG,

In this email I would like to comment on Tom's suggestion regarding number
of levels of FA in the hierarchy.

I understand what Tom has said about having a minimal number of 3 levels for
a base case of Hierarchical FA, namely GFA, intermediate FA, lowest FA. I
can see that GFA is unique in the sense it is the only agent in Foreign
Domain that talks to HA directly, and lowest FA is unique in the sense that
it the only Agent that talks to MN directly. Thus intermediate FA is a
different entity from both of these since its role is to pass on
registration reply/requests to other and open up and build tunnels. And so
you want to start with a 3 level scenario of one intermediate FA that can be
scaled up by just adding more of intermediate FA's.

I had initially thought that way too. But, I want to share what I have
started seeing as I am in the process of implementing the roles for these
agents. Please feel free to point whatever mistakes I may have made in my
understanding:

In RFC 2002, we had just two Agents, one in Home network and one in Foreign
Network, namely HA and FA, one the transmitter and other the receiver
(depending on the direction the packets are going). We needed at least two
because we want one of our Agents at both link layer endpoints, HA to grab
the packets meant for the MN at link layer, and FA to be able to deliver the
packets to MN via link layer.

From that stance of having two endpoints of a tunnel, the authors of this
draft have discussed a paradigm shift in allowing intermediate nodes whose
link layer positions don't matter (as we don't care if they are on Home
Subnet or Foreign Subnet). They are just some 'positions' on the route
between HA and FA so as to optimize the travel distance/number of signals
that are sent to enable transparent communications of world with MN.

I think GFA is distinct from both FA and HA, since-

(1) As I said there is no restriction on which link layer it is. HA has to
be on the same link layer as MN's Home Address, and FA has to be on same
link layer that MN is now at.

(2) It is the entity that does BOTH encapsulation and decapsulation of the
same packets. HA encapsulates incoming packets to MN but decapsulates
outgoing packets. Similarly, FA encapsulates outgoing  packets from MN but
decapsulates incoming packets.

Thus GFA is first level of intermediateness between HA and FA by itself.
Therefore, I am saying that in a minimal setup of Regional Registration we
have to have GFA in addition to nodes in RFC 2002 since it is so different
than HA or FA.

On the other hand, an intermediate FA, although is an additional level, is
not really as distinct from GFA in the above two respects. And I consider it
the second level of intermediation.

Also regarding intermediate FA,
1. It is not needed even. One can have a decent Regional Registration
without it.
2. It is similar to GFA in terms of being an intermediate node between HA
and FA, having no link layer restriction, and having to do both
encapsulation and decapsulation of same packets.

In my mind, the first intermediate level of mediation between FA and HA has
already been provided by the GFA.

All further levels will be providing yet another level, and may be
considered as an appendix.

Therefore, I am advocating what exists in the draft, and what Tom has called
a 2 level hierarchy as a base case for hierarchical FA. I think the base
case is having the first intermediate FA, called GFA. Any other FA's
addition can be handled in appendix, and can be built on the model proposed
in this draft.

Regards,
Satwant


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom K. Weckström" <tweckstr@cc.hut.fi>
To: <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)


> Hi Annik and WG.
>
> My comments to Annikas first reply, which I somehow managed not to
> receive.
> Thanks Annika for resending it to me.
>
> Annika Jonsson wrote:
> > >>Ch 3.1
> > >>? Is there a possibility to make a HA hierarchy as well?
> > >>  If not, why then?
> > >>--> Possibly another draft. Could be derived from J.K.Malinen's
> > >>thesis.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Sure it is, it was included in one of the predecessors to this draft.
We
> > felt it would be easier to handle it in separate drafts, and we think
the
> > hierarchical FA:s are more important.
>
> Agreed. This could be handled in another draft. There could also be a
> draft about using private addresses in FAs and HAs in the hierarchies
> and a solution for allowing duplicate private home addresses for MNs
> from different home organizations. These are all solved in Jouni
> Malinen's thesis from March/2000. Check it from Dynamics web site (in
> signature).
>
>
> > >>3.1.1.
> > >>? Why only assume two levels of FAs in the visited domain?
> > >>
> > >
> > It's mainly for pedagogic reasons. It makes the description of the
> > protocol easier and clearer, and also we think that is an important
> > scenario. In this way we first describe the basics of the protocol, and
> > then add the multiple level hierarchies.
>
> Annika, I have to disagree. Simplifying issues in design may result in
> a solution that can not be easily extended - at least not without
> breaking backwards compatibility.
>
> Additionally, a 2-level case is just an exception in a hierarchical
> environment. I claim one needs to have at least a 3-level example to
> demonstrate the different kind of scenarios of regional registrations.
>         1. GFA handling the registration (also in 2-level case)
>         2. Lowest FA handling the registration (also in 2-level case)
>         3. Some intermediate FA handling the registration
>            (NOT in the 2-level case)
>            Here "intermediate" means any FA between lowest FA and GFA.
>
> So, please improve the draft to handle N-level hierarchies as simply
> as 2-level hierarhies, and demonstrate at least the three above
> mentioned examples in the draft.
>
> My suggestion is to leave Appendix B to more advanced hierarhcy
> discussions if necessary and to include N-level aspect to the actrual
> chapters.
>
> > >>3.4.1.
> > >>? This makes the possible topologies more cumbersome.
> > >>---> Eg. GFA1, ..., GFA4 are all connected to RFA1 and RFA2 and RFA3
> > >>and RFA4.
> > >>? Why is this needed? For load balancing type of activities?
> > >>
> > >
> > >Yes, we wanted to allow this kind of topology. It can be used for e.g.
> > load balancing, or, it could be that an MN should use a specific GFA for
> > different reasons.
>
> Ok. Good. No objections on that. :-)
>
>
> > >>? Does the possibility to set GFA address to zero in the request open
> > >>new holes in the security?  E.g. Mallory acts as an additional GFA in
> > >>the hierarchy and captures MN's reg.reg. coming from RFA1. This gives
> > >>a possibility to intrude as a GFA into MIP signaling. However,
> > >>additional bonuses are few. And eventually Mallory could set up his
> > >>own ISP.
> > >>
> > >
> > >No, when the reply comes back to the RFA, the FA-FA auth. will fail in
> > that case.
>
>
> You are right.
>
>
> > >>3.4.2.
> > >>
> > >>" If the care-of address field is set to zero, the foreign agent
> > >>   assigns a GFA to the mobile node, by some means not described in
> > >>   this specification, and adds a GFA IP Address extension to the
> > >>   Registration Request message."
> > >>
> > >>? RFA selects the GFA? RFA has no knowledge of GFA conditions (load,
> > >>etc.). How could an RFA make the decision? This could be solved with
> > >>the topology or by other means, but involves more protocol
> > >>intelligence anyway and whence adds to complexity.
> > >>
> > >
> > >We specificaly said: "by some means not described in this
specification".
> > It's  not necessarily the RFA that decides, but it must have some way of
> > finding out which GFA to use, of course.
>
> Please be careful. If some sort of support for this is build to MN
> according to the draft/becoming RFC but the mechanism is not in place
> for selecting GFA, what will happen then? Have you already planned an
> registration erro message for that? ;) Something like: "Feature not
> supported".
>
>
> > >>B.2.
> (quotation deleted, see draft, Chapt B.2.)
>
> > >>? So, if the FA hierarchy is not revealed in the advertisements, then
> > >>the regional registrations always go to the GFA?
>
> > No. See your quotation above, the first RFA that recognises the MN
replies
> > (unless the lifetime has expired). This is regardless of whether
> > hierarchies are advertised or not.
>
> How do you assure that the bindings in the FA hierarchy remain
> consistent when regional registrations are performed in the
> "intermediate FAs"?
>
> I read about the reg.reply with zero lifetime down to the "old" FA of
> the MN (and the FAs residing on the path between the "old FA" and the
> "intermediate FA"). As I told, we called this a "tear down" message
> back in Dynamics 0.5 a year ago, but the solution has a race condition
> that makes the state of the FA hierarchy inconsistent when packets are
> lost and results in severe problems. This is why I recommended the
> "previous FA NAI" extension approach that tackles the problem. More
> info from Jouni's thesis, or I can explain the solution if desired.
>
> > >Thanks for your feedback!
> Thanks, it is great to be able to give the feedback and possibly
> improve the becoming RFC. :-)
>
> Best regards,
>                 Tom
>
> --
>         Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
>                                 Helsinki University of Technology
>                                 dynamics@cs.hut.fi
>
> http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Sun Oct 29 06:18:55 2000
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From: "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@cc.hut.fi>
Organization: HUT
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         Satwant Kaur <wizkid11@xnet.com>,
              Annika.Jonsson@era.ericsson.se, "Charles E. Perkins" 
              <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
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Hello Satwant and others.

You have valid points. I agree on all you say about the roles of
different agents. And GFA really is the first level of
"intermediateness" when thinking from you point of view.

BUT:

Thinking from the regionality point of view, GFA is the zero level,
because it is not intermediate from the regionality point of view.
If the registrations go to the HA, they are not regionalized, and thus
HA can not be considered as level zero from the regionality point of
view. As Annika said, GFA is sort of a replacement for a HA. This is
also said in our paper presented in MoMuC99. We called this idea
"distribution of mobility agent functionality", because a part of HA's
functionality is distributed to FA's (namely the functionality to
reply to registration requests).

The important example I would like to see in the draft is the example
of FAs handling a consistent state information throughout the FA
topology. To clarify this operation, I would vote for a 3-level FA
hierarchy example. I admit, that even this state example could be
simplified to a 2-level example, but I see it would be misleading in
two ways: it is more trivial and it urges thinking of only 2-level
hierarchies. 2-level hierarchies are likely to be the most used
topologies, but as networks grow and needs arise for even more
regionalized registrations, deeper FA topologies may gain importance.

Let me explain.
Again, I use the example hierarchy:


                                 ------
                                 | HA |
                                 ------
                                   |
                               (Internet)
                                   |
                                -------
                                | GFA |
                                -------
                              /         \
                      -------             -------
                      | FA1 |             | FA2 |
                      -------             -------
                       /   \               /   \
                 -------   -------   -------   -------
                 | FA3 |   | FA4 |   | FA5 |   | FA6 |
                 -------   -------   -------   -------
                                  \
                                   \
                                 ------
                                 | MN |
                                 ------

In the initial situation in the figure, IFA (FA1) is the intermediate
FA on a path from HA to MN, GFA has its own special name and role, and
LFA (FA4) is the lowest FA on a path from HA to MN. MN has registered
with a home registration and has received a reply through FA4 (LFA).

Now, consider a situation, in which MN changes its lowest FA (the FA
to which it sends its registrations) in the following order:
-- FA4, FA3, FA6, FA5, FA4,...

Now, what entities send the regional registration reply to MN?
In the corresponding order:
-- FA1, FA1, GFA, FA2, GFA,...

Now, also FA1 and FA2, and even GFA may send agent advertisements.
MN could also roam vertically and register like this:
-- FA4, FA1, FA2, FA3, FA2, FA6, FA1

And the FA sending the registration reply would be:
-- FA1, FA1, GFA, GFA, GFA, FA2, GFA

These (or similar) are important examples that should be handled in
the draft for example to justify the use of "previous FA NAI"
extension. For example, in the latter example, changing from FA1 to
FA2 and to FA3 would result in error, if a "tear down" message from
GFA to FA1 was lost after the FA1-->FA2 transition. In that case, the
registration reply associated with the FA2-->FA3 transition would be
handled by FA1 leaving GFA unaware of the change, i.e., GFA would
still route the packets for MN to FA2.

When using "previous FA NAI" extension, FA3 would know that the
previous FA, FA2, is not under it and would delegate the
responsibility to FA1. FA1 would also notice that FA2 is not beneath
it in the hierarchy, and would delegate the registration to GFA, which
would be able to handle the registration correctly. This solution
requires the FAs to be aware of other FAs below them in the hierarchy.
This is solved with a specific automatic "FA registration protocol"
also designed by Jouni Malinen in his thesis and implemented in
Dynamics - HUT Mobile IP v0.7. Of course, also manual configuration
could be used.

Tear down could be used *in addition* to the "previous FA NAI"
extension. The role of the previous FA NAI extension is to make the
state of the hierarchy consistent and the role of the tear down
message would be just to release the resources from FA2. E.g., FA2
could have had the maximum number of mobility bindings and it would
have been unable to serve new MNs before the timeout of the already
useless binding. Tear down would then release the resources for other
MNs.

It is not possible to show examples like this with a 2-level FA
hierarchy. A significantly simpler scenario could be shown, though.
What do you think, would the simpler scenario be enough to demonstrate
the issues involved in FA hierarchies deeply enough to help the
implementors avoid failures in coding their implementations? I think
guidance to implementors is one of the most important missions of RFCs
(and drafts). Would the simpler scenario also demonstrate the
solution's capability to extend to any level FA hierarchies?
Furthermore, if someone has thought these - to me quite nontrivial -
issues through, I think the conclusions should be included to a draft
that describes the solution and not to hide them so that everyone
would need to re-think the issues and re-invent the solution for
3-level hierarchies.

I agree, that a simplistic case could be handled in the main text and
3-level considerations could be left to Appendix, if length of the
document becomes an issue, for example. However, these scenarios and
the operation of the system elements are so important for the whole
concept of regional registrations that I would rather write them to
the actual part of the draft, not Appendix.

Regards,
        Tom

Satwant Kaur wrote:
>
> Hi Annika, Tom and WG,
>
> In this email I would like to comment on Tom's suggestion regarding number
> of levels of FA in the hierarchy.
>
> I understand what Tom has said about having a minimal number of 3 levels for
> a base case of Hierarchical FA, namely GFA, intermediate FA, lowest FA. I
> can see that GFA is unique in the sense it is the only agent in Foreign
> Domain that talks to HA directly, and lowest FA is unique in the sense that
> it the only Agent that talks to MN directly. Thus intermediate FA is a
> different entity from both of these since its role is to pass on
> registration reply/requests to other and open up and build tunnels. And so
> you want to start with a 3 level scenario of one intermediate FA that can be
> scaled up by just adding more of intermediate FA's.
>
> I had initially thought that way too. But, I want to share what I have
> started seeing as I am in the process of implementing the roles for these
> agents. Please feel free to point whatever mistakes I may have made in my
> understanding:
>
> In RFC 2002, we had just two Agents, one in Home network and one in Foreign
> Network, namely HA and FA, one the transmitter and other the receiver
> (depending on the direction the packets are going). We needed at least two
> because we want one of our Agents at both link layer endpoints, HA to grab
> the packets meant for the MN at link layer, and FA to be able to deliver the
> packets to MN via link layer.
>
> >From that stance of having two endpoints of a tunnel, the authors of this
> draft have discussed a paradigm shift in allowing intermediate nodes whose
> link layer positions don't matter (as we don't care if they are on Home
> Subnet or Foreign Subnet). They are just some 'positions' on the route
> between HA and FA so as to optimize the travel distance/number of signals
> that are sent to enable transparent communications of world with MN.
>
> I think GFA is distinct from both FA and HA, since-
>
> (1) As I said there is no restriction on which link layer it is. HA has to
> be on the same link layer as MN's Home Address, and FA has to be on same
> link layer that MN is now at.
>
> (2) It is the entity that does BOTH encapsulation and decapsulation of the
> same packets. HA encapsulates incoming packets to MN but decapsulates
> outgoing packets. Similarly, FA encapsulates outgoing  packets from MN but
> decapsulates incoming packets.
>
> Thus GFA is first level of intermediateness between HA and FA by itself.
> Therefore, I am saying that in a minimal setup of Regional Registration we
> have to have GFA in addition to nodes in RFC 2002 since it is so different
> than HA or FA.
>
> On the other hand, an intermediate FA, although is an additional level, is
> not really as distinct from GFA in the above two respects. And I consider it
> the second level of intermediation.
>
> Also regarding intermediate FA,
> 1. It is not needed even. One can have a decent Regional Registration
> without it.
> 2. It is similar to GFA in terms of being an intermediate node between HA
> and FA, having no link layer restriction, and having to do both
> encapsulation and decapsulation of same packets.
>
> In my mind, the first intermediate level of mediation between FA and HA has
> already been provided by the GFA.
>
> All further levels will be providing yet another level, and may be
> considered as an appendix.
>
> Therefore, I am advocating what exists in the draft, and what Tom has called
> a 2 level hierarchy as a base case for hierarchical FA. I think the base
> case is having the first intermediate FA, called GFA. Any other FA's
> addition can be handled in appendix, and can be built on the model proposed
> in this draft.
>
> Regards,
> Satwant


--
        Tom Weckström           Dynamics group
                                Helsinki University of Technology
                                dynamics@cs.hut.fi

http://www.cs.hut.fi/Research/Dynamics/


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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupportinIPv6"draft]
X-To:         charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:24:13 PDT. 
              <39F4662D.EA8DD1E4@iprg.nokia.com>

I agree, IPsec doesn't provide user authentication (ie. IPsec is not radius)
or application level authentication (ie. IPsec is not PGP). IPsec provides
only device strong authentication which is required by mobility...

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


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From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] [Fwd: Re: [MOBILE-IP] New version of
              "MobilitySupport in
              IPv6"draft]
X-To:         "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:32:55 PDT. 
              <39F47647.CE0A588C@iprg.nokia.com>

 In your previous mail you wrote:

   I'll use the word "exchange" instead of "switch", since
   the latter was misinterpreted in at least one implementation
   effort.

=> misinterpretation MUST be avoided!

   I hope this is acceptable, and I am also looking for additional
   comments before the next revision is completed.

=> you already know my opinion, field exchange is a bit simpler than
more abstract way to deal with both home and care-of addresses.
Of course both must be protected and it is easier to protect them
directly (ie. in ICV and not via SA match) in place (ie. one as the
source, one in the home address option).

Regards

Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr


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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Mon Oct 30 17:56:57 2000
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From: "Powell, Ken" <Ken.Powell@compaq.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM" <charliep@IPRG.NOKIA.COM>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi Charlie,

> Hello John,
>
<snip>
>
> Your suggestion:
>
> > - Require that a home agent's router advertisements always
> contain all
> > of the prefixes on the network that are valid for home or
> CO addresses.
>
> seems to solve the problem with least harm.  I particularly think
> it compares well with another alternative which was suggested,
> according to which the mobile node would have to assume that every
> advertising home agent was its own home agent.  I think the strategy
> above will introduce less traffic on the wireless link.

This will also simplify the requirements in section 9.7 of
draft-ietf-mobileip-ipv6-12.txt. Specifically:

  "The home agent determines these conditions based on its own
   configuration as a router AND BASED ON THE ROUTER ADVERTISEMENTS
   THAT IT RECEIVES ON THE HOME LINK."

The part in caps implies significant extra work on the part of the
mobile agent to track what other routers on the home subnet advertise
and relay that information to the mobile nodes. If you adopt John's
proposal, would it make sense to remove this requirement?

>
> I also agree with previous statements that renumbering should happen
> gently.  In the context of your suggestion, this would mean that the
> deprecated prefix would be carried by agent advertisements for quite
> a while.  I think that whatever is specified in the Neighbor Discovery
> draft SHOULD cover the required time durations for deprecated
> addresses,
> but I didn't go check the wording before sending this message.  If it
> is not sufficient there, then we should make some explicit parameter
> value specifications in the Mobile IPv6 draft.

Default valid address lifetime in the ND spec is 30 days,
preferred lifetime is 7 days. This implies to me that if
I start a renumbering process today, I can reasonably expect
that no system will be configured with the old addresses
after 30 days when the valid lifetimes expire. This makes
sense for the gentle renumbering approach. But I would not
build a product to always rely on gentle. There is another
option.

The ND and stateless address autoconfiguration specs allow
renumbering to happen in two hours without IPsec, and less with
IPsec. Of course deleting addresses abruptly like this will
disrupt the network, but I don't think that is always a bad
thing. For example, I'm not worried about service disruption
when I renumber the network in my lab or my home, I just want
to get the job done quickly and hopefully easily.

IMHO, mobile IPv6 should handle:

  1) Careful renumbering, takes a month, minimal disruption
     to applications and users.

  2) Quick renumbering, short period of network down time
     expected. Existing connections will fail, but can be
     re-established with little effort.

> > Of course, the danger here is that the network could be
> misconfigured so
> > that home agents are not advertising all prefixes.  This would be
> > sub-optimal (mobility would be uses when it is not needed),
> but wouldn't
> > prevent the mobile node from communicating.
>
> A lot of things can go wrong if the network is misconfigured!
>
> Maybe we can put mandatory requirements in the draft so that such
> misconfigurations go against explicitly stated MUSTs.  Your help
> in determining some correct wording would be appreciated.

Using words like MUST on network configurations seems odd to
me. Would it make sense to state configuration limitations as
a fact; then, mandate that home agents MUST (SHOULD?) check for
inconsistencies in received router advertisements and report any
errors?

Ken


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Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] The first MPLS exhibition
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The first MPLS exhibition ever organized will take place during MPLS =
World
in Paris.=20
Three exhibiting options are available.
Please visit:
http://www.upperside.fr/congress/exhi.htm

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The first MPLS exhibition ever =
organized will take=20
place during MPLS World<BR>in Paris. <BR>Three exhibiting options are=20
available.<BR>Please visit:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.upperside.fr/congress/exhi.htm">http://www.upperside.f=
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From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 31 08:53:27 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
Organization: Nokia Research Center
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] WGLastCall-(draft-ietf-mobileip-reg-tunnel-03.txt)
X-To:         "Tom K. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Weckstr=F6m?=" <tweckstr@cc.hut.fi>
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              Annika.Jonsson@era.ericsson.se, Eva Gustafsson 
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Hello Tom,

I have studied your examples, and I have two overall
comments.

It seems to me that using the Previous Foreign Agent
Notification (PFAN) extension (from the Route Optimization
draft) solves the problems that you posed.  This message
forces an acknowledgement from the previous foreign agent
after it receives the Binding Update.  Thus, the mobile
node has a way to know its registration status at previous
foreign agents.  All along, we tried to make the regional
registration draft coexist well with the Binding Update
mechanism specified in the Route Optimization draft, while
still remaining sufficiently independent so that the
regional registration draft could be considered separately.

Do you agree that this is a good solution?

I am very tempted to agree with you about the need to
insure that regional registration messages work with multilevel
hierarchies.  And, in fact, I think that the messages in the
current draft do work in multilevel hierarchies.  We all
thought about this problem of multi-level hierarchies many
times, and that was a partial motivation for using different
message types.  However, if you see any particular place where
there is any existing problem in the protocol, where the
regional messages would not work for the multi-level hierarchy,
please let us know.

For convenience, I have reproduced your example hierarchy
and mobility patterns below.  I think that, given PFAN,
the existing draft solves your concerns, but again if I am
wrong I hope you will help us find out what is still wrong.

Regards,
Charlie P.



> Again, I use the example hierarchy:
>
>                                  ------
>                                  | HA |
>                                  ------
>                                    |
>                                (Internet)
>                                    |
>                                 -------
>                                 | GFA |
>                                 -------
>                               /         \
>                       -------             -------
>                       | FA1 |             | FA2 |
>                       -------             -------
>                        /   \               /   \
>                  -------   -------   -------   -------
>                  | FA3 |   | FA4 |   | FA5 |   | FA6 |
>                  -------   -------   -------   -------
>                                   \
>                                    \
>                                  ------
>                                  | MN |
>                                  ------
>
> In the initial situation in the figure, IFA (FA1) is the intermediate
> FA on a path from HA to MN, GFA has its own special name and role, and
> LFA (FA4) is the lowest FA on a path from HA to MN. MN has registered
> with a home registration and has received a reply through FA4 (LFA).
>
> Now, consider a situation, in which MN changes its lowest FA (the FA
> to which it sends its registrations) in the following order:
> -- FA4, FA3, FA6, FA5, FA4,...
>
> Now, what entities send the regional registration reply to MN?
> In the corresponding order:
> -- FA1, FA1, GFA, FA2, GFA,...
>
> Now, also FA1 and FA2, and even GFA may send agent advertisements.
> MN could also roam vertically and register like this:
> -- FA4, FA1, FA2, FA3, FA2, FA6, FA1
>
> And the FA sending the registration reply would be:
> -- FA1, FA1, GFA, GFA, GFA, FA2, GFA


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Approved-By:  "Powell, Ken" <Ken.Powell@COMPAQ.COM>
Message-ID:  <C99A689B0CB9D111AF3F0000F8062CCD08FB83A7@zkoexc2.zko.dec.com>
Date:         Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:39:09 -0500
Reply-To: "Powell, Ken" <Ken.Powell@compaq.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Powell, Ken" <Ken.Powell@compaq.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@iol.unh.edu>
X-cc:         ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Sorry for the delay, still catching up on
this thread.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John F. Leser [mailto:jfl@iol.unh.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 11:11 AM
> To: Thomas Eklund
> Cc: Francis Dupont; MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM;
> ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com
> Subject: Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection

<snip>

> - Require that a home agent's router advertisements always contain all
> of the prefixes on the network that are valid for home or CO
> addresses.

I like the idea and think it makes sense for stateless address
autoconfiguration, but how would it work with other address
configuration methods like DHCPv6? Does this put restrictions
on where DHCPv6 could be used?


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 31 10:55:21 2000
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Date:         Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:53:46 -0600
Reply-To: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Hi,

        as you know you've got to submit your draft before Nov 17.  You probably also know the working group agendas are due at the start of December, but we'd like to hear about it before then.  Raj and I will agree on a date beyond which we won't take requests and let you know.

Phil


> ----------
> From:         Jonathan Trostle
> Sent:         Friday, October 27, 2000 6:43 AM
> To:   Roberts Philip-qa3445; MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Cc:   jtrostle@cisco.com
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder
>
> I have a draft in this area that I will submit before Nov. 17. What is the deadline for submitting a request for a slot?
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>
> At 03:10 PM 10/26/00 -0500, Roberts Philip-qa3445 wrote:
> >Hi folks,
> >
> >     just a reminder that we're taking requests for slots in the Mobile IP
> >meeting.   Let us know the name of the presenter, the name of
> >the I-D, and the amount of time requested.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Phil
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 31 12:20:57 2000
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Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: Roberts Philip-qa3445 <Philip_Roberts-qa3445@email.mot.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

We'd like to have all requests by Nov 17 the cutoff date for new drafts.  But we'll consider requests up to Nov 29th.  That will give Raj and I a little time to coordinate before we send in the agenda for the agenda cutoff date.   Of course we always leave a little time for agenda bashing at the start of the meeting.



> ----------
> From:         Jonathan Trostle
> Sent:         Friday, October 27, 2000 6:43 AM
> To:   Roberts Philip-qa3445; MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM
> Cc:   jtrostle@cisco.com
> Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] san diego reminder
>
> I have a draft in this area that I will submit before Nov. 17. What is the deadline for submitting a request for a slot?
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>
> At 03:10 PM 10/26/00 -0500, Roberts Philip-qa3445 wrote:
> >Hi folks,
> >
> >     just a reminder that we're taking requests for slots in the Mobile IP
> >meeting.   Let us know the name of the presenter, the name of
> >the I-D, and the amount of time requested.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Phil
>
>


From owner-mobile-ip@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM  Tue Oct 31 13:28:44 2000
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Date:         Tue, 31 Oct 2000 13:26:38 -0500
Reply-To: "Powell, Ken" <Ken.Powell@compaq.com>
Sender: "IP Routing for Wireless/Mobile Hosts (mobile-ip)"              <MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM>
From: "Powell, Ken" <Ken.Powell@compaq.com>
Subject:      Re: [MOBILE-IP] MIPv6 node location detection
X-To:         "John F. Leser" <jfl@iol.unh.edu>,
              "ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com" <ipng@sunroof.eng.sun.com>,
              "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@iprg.nokia.com>
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

Following upon a comment I made yesterday about John Leser's
proposal...

> > - Require that a home agent's router advertisements always
> > contain all of the prefixes on the network that are valid
> > for home or CO addresses.

<snip>

> Would it make sense to state configuration limitations as
> a fact; then, mandate that home agents MUST (SHOULD?) check
> for inconsistencies in received router advertisements and
> report any errors?

I was thinking that in addition to the consistency
checks required by RFC 2461 section 6.2.7, the
following specific checks SHOULD be made on a home
agent when it receives a Router Advertisement on the
home subnet:

 1) If the M or O flag is set in the received Router
    Advertisement, verify the corresponding bit is
    set in the home agents own router advertisements.

 2) Verify all prefixes received in the Prefix
    Information option are included in the home agent's
    own AdvPrefixList.

 3) If the value of the L or A flag of a received
    prefix is set, verify the corresponding flag in
    the home agent's AdvPrefixList is also set.

The R flag in received Prefix Information option
should be ignored by the home agent.

Any inconsistencies SHOULD be logged to system or
network management.

Ken


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From: Johnny Matta <matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com>
Subject:      [MOBILE-IP] Integration of Mobile IP and MPLS - Issues and
              Current Work
X-cc:         mpls@uu.net
To: MOBILE-IP@STANDARDS.NORTELNETWORKS.COM

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0436F.7219ACD0
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Hello,

This is to ask for references on the integration of Mobile IP and MPLS =
in terms of analysis of issues and current work. Has there been more =
documents besides the draft "Integration of Mobile IP and MPLS" =
<draft-zhong-mobile-ip-mpls-01.txt>?

Thank you.

Johnny M MATTA
Research Engineer
DoCoMo Communications Laboratories USA, Inc.
Email: matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com
Phone: 1-408-451-4727
Fax: 1-408-573-1090
181 Metro Drive Suite 300
San Jose, CA 95110


------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0436F.7219ACD0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is to ask for references on the =
integration of=20
Mobile IP and MPLS in terms of analysis of issues and current work. Has =
there=20
been more documents besides the draft "</FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Integration of Mobile IP and MPLS"=20
&lt;draft-zhong-mobile-ip-mpls-01.txt&gt;?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Johnny M MATTA<BR>Research =
Engineer<BR>DoCoMo=20
Communications Laboratories USA, Inc.<BR>Email: </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>matta@dcl.docomo-usa.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Phone:=20
1-408-451-4727<BR>Fax: 1-408-573-1090<BR>181 Metro Drive Suite =
300<BR>San Jose,=20
CA 95110<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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