Subject: [NEXTEL-1] Nextel Gets a Failing Grade

From: "lialarm" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:19:26 -0000

Nextel Gets a Failing Grade

Lets face it, Nextel failed to supply service on Thursday August 14. 
Many emergency service company relied on NEXTEL to communicate with 
there field technicians. As soon as the lights went out at 4PM so did 
the NEXTEL service while Verizion and ATT service where still 
available. Most subscribers pay NEXTEL thousands of dollars for their 
service and were completely out of communication. A fill scale 
investigation should be launched into why the system failed so 
quickly. If necessary a class action law suite should commenced. We 
need to wake up NEXTEL to prevent this form occurring again. 

[email-masked]

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From: "meijin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:34:20 -0500

I am not trying to call you a liar...but I would really like to know your
location when you say that Nextel lost power as soon as the regular power
system went out. I know of no sites that went out that quickly anywhere in
the Nextel coverage area. I would really like to look into this and bring my
boss on board if necessary to look into it. If you would send me the
specifics, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

Michael

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:07:56 -0400

Mike (meijin ),

Are you kidding? Sprint immediately lost (12)  T1's  feeding Nextel sites in Manhattan alone at the beginning of the
black out.  No T1- No Cellsite! Also see my previous report from the Nextel engineers in Westchester.

---

From: "meijin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:35:48 -0500

No Marcel, I am not kidding.

I usually enjoy this list quite a bit. However, it really bothers me when
some idiot slams Nextel for things that are out of their control. It reminds
me when of 9/11 when I was working in technical support and this woman from
NY called and was complaining about her cell phone not able to make a call.
Jeez...two planes just took out the "Twin Towers". Do you happen to think
that it may cause some issues with cellular service?!?

The person who made the original post wants a class action law suit to see
why Nextel lost some service when the power went out? Well...and your point
is what? As you say, Sprint went down. And Nextel is supposed to do what?
You think no other service provider was effected? I have a handful of
stories that talk about every cellular provider having the same thing happen
to them. It was not a Nextel issue.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: [NEXTEL-1] Nextel Gets a Failing Grade

> Mike (meijin ),
>
> Are you kidding? Sprint immediately lost (12)  T1's  feeding Nextel sites
in Manhattan alone at the beginning of the

---

From: Jack Daniel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:35:42 -0700

I thank you for voicing the truth about Nextel system unreliability.

But what kind of idiots does Nextel take everyone else for?

Nextel themselves has made system dependability and survivability during
unusual events and emergencies 'their issue' and is now getting the
special attention they deserve as a result.

Only Nextel has focused so strongly to promote their services as
suitable for public safety, first-responder, interoperability solutions.

You KNOW Nextel is a vulnerable to power failures and breaks in central
controller links as any other cellular company, BUT Nextel don't market
their services that way. In fact one recent news release boasted Nextel
was no longer dependent upon telco links, inferring some higher grade of
dependability.

Nextel wants to be treated as superior to their competition when not put
to the test and expect the sympathy of being equally weak when they fail
to deliver.

Nextel wants to be half-pregnant in many of their dealings. Ain't no
such thing.

Maybe the public safety community should take this as a preview of how
Nextel will react in other matters in the future. 

But I may be wrong............
Jack Daniel
==================================== 

meijin wrote:
> > > I am not trying to call you a liar...but I would really like to
> know
> your
> > > location when you say that Nextel lost power as soon as the
> regular
> power
> > > system went out. I know of no sites that went out that quickly
> anywhere
> in
> > > the Nextel coverage area. I would really like to look into this
> and
> bring my
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---

From: "meijin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:05:29 -0500

Jack:

I do not work for marketing, so I cannot speak to how Nextel markets service
to any sector of the market. However, I do know what the SLA's for public
saftey customers are as well as enterprise level in-building customers.
Outages such as what happened are covered in the contract and were dealt
with the way they were supposed to be based on the contract.

If, in fact, someone from Nextel put out a presser saying what you have
stated, then they are an idiot. I would not argue that point. But, I have
seen "reporters" take a presser and comment on it totally different than
what was actually said.

My response was to the exactly what the person said.

One of the main points being simply this...ALL cellular providers were
effected. Period. The degrees will vary in different locations, but they
were still ALL effected.

Thanks for the response.

Michael

---

From: Jack Daniel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:54:34 -0700

Micheal,

I understand you are looking at this from a technical angle and I think
we are in agreement about the type of service one can expect from a
cellular system. 

No one who views this from a technical angle really doesn't expect
Nextel to be much different than other cellular services, overall.

But those who are not technical are influenced and develop perceptions
based on advertisments and presentations that sometimes gloss over or
minimize some limitations. That's to be expected to some degree because
that's what ads do.

One example is a Nextel 'Interoperability' advertisement placed in
several non-technical public safety publications recently.

Throughout the whole document reliability and suitability for first
responders and use in emergencies of any size and kind are repeated
again and again. 

In the third paragraph the word 'supplemental' appears one time. I agree
it's a supplemental device, just as a FRS radio would be a supplemental
device.

The following release example appeared in several magazines including
Mobile Government and Government Technology;

http://www.govtech.net/govcenter/solcenter/?id=53622

I respectfully submit this is an unbalanced and perhaps misleading
presentation relative to the reliability and robustness provided to
first responders.

But I may be wrong........
Jack Daniel
====================================

meijin wrote:
> > > I usually enjoy this list quite a bit. However, it really bothers
> me
> when
> > > some idiot slams Nextel for things that are out of their control.
> It
> reminds
> > > me when of 9/11 when I was working in technical support and this
> woman
> from
> > > NY called and was complaining about her cell phone not able to
> make a
> call.
> > > Jeez...two planes just took out the "Twin Towers". Do you happen
> to
> think
> > > The person who made the original post wants a class action law
> suit to
> see
> > > why Nextel lost some service when the power went out? Well...and
> your
> point
> > > is what? As you say, Sprint went down. And Nextel is supposed to
> do
> what?
> > > stories that talk about every cellular provider having the same
> thing
> happen
> > > > Are you kidding? Sprint immediately lost (12)  T1's  feeding
> Nextel
> > > sites
> > > > black out.  No T1- No Cellsite! Also see my previous report from
> the
> > > Nextel engineers in Westchester.
> > > >
> > > > meijin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > boss on board if necessary to look into it. If you would send
> me
> > > the
> > > > > > Lets face it, Nextel failed to supply service on Thursday
> August
> > > 14.
> > > > > > Many emergency service company relied on NEXTEL to
> communicate
> > > with
> > > > > > there field technicians. As soon as the lights went out at
> 4PM
> > > so did
> > > > > > available. Most subscribers pay NEXTEL thousands of dollars
> for
> > > their
> > > > > > quickly. If necessary a class action law suite should
> commenced.
> > > We
>                        ADVERTISEMENT
>                         [click here]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:55:50 -0400

> No Marcel, I am not kidding.

Ok-

>
> I usually enjoy this list quite a bit.

I'm glad you do.

> However, it really bothers me when

First, let me commend you for your dedication to your employer, Timmy should be proud to have you on the "Front Line"
.

Second,  I understand your frustration, however redundancy is a large part of any network. In this case it was
certainly lacking and It was beyond Nextel's control as the system was designed. (Time for a redesign)

Third, As you know NO group has followed Nextel's  activities since 1999 more closely than us here at Nextel-1. The
comments from Jack and others are legitimate.

Nextel has deliberately targeted "Public Safety" users as potential customers. I'm not going to post the dozens of
examples of this since we all know it is true. Nextel has touted their network as better than other CMRS. Public
Safety has bought this perception because of Nextel's marketing practices. Nextel was put to the test and it failed.
Sure we can blame Sprint, MCI, the Hot Dog man, etc.....

Us (the hard-core iDEN group) know Nextel's vulnerabilities. We have discussed it in-depth dozens of times.
The Black-Out is absolute proof of this.

Your network is only as good as the design behind.  Nextel's system failed like everyone's else, because of the design
level. Before you say you can not design a "bullet-proof" network look at Nextel's competitor SouthernLinc- (iDEN
Provider) The almost BULLET-PROOF ESMR Provider.

1) ALL sites have Generator Back-up

2) SouthernLinc (Southern Company)  has the 2nd  largest "Wired Network" in the entire Southeast.  The system
features TRIPLE REDUNDANCY in some parts of their network. SouthernLinc connects most of their sites Via
their own T1's or Point-To-Point Microwave.

3) SouthernLinc's has many of their Cellsites located at their secure power facilities.

4) SouthernLinc MSO's & RSO's  are  located at 24 hr manned facilities.

> It reminds

It was not the Towers alone that caused the outage it was a ripple effect, VZ switch, Sprint's fiber,
MCI's Microwave, etc.

> why Nextel lost some service when the power went out?

Maybe-

> Well...and your point

Redesign the network with redundancy.

>
> You think no other service provider was effected?

But none of them are being touted as a Public Safety device.

> I have a handful of
> to them.

I'm sure-

> It was not a Nextel issue.
>

With the system designed as it stands.
Looks like a time for redesign.
I  already heard Timmy is calling for a "Design Review".
Capex will increase next year.