Subject: [NEXTEL-1] iDEN TTA Dekolink - MW-TTA-H-3x-BP

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:01:15 -0500

http://cellantenna.com/repeater/Dekolink/Products/MW-TTA-H-3x-BP.html
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iDEN Tower Top Amplifiers
(TTA) Hybrid Combining Type

Model number : MW-TTA-H-3x-BP

Main features:

Expanded cell site coverage.

Advanced VSWR Monitoring.

Increased Battery Life.

Less Co-Channel Interference.

Less Dropped calls.

Low Intermodulation Distortion.

Lightning Protected, Weatherproof
Enclosure.

Compact and lightweight.

Amplifier Bypass.

Click
for information request

System description :

The Tower Top Amplifier (TTA)
box contains three identical and independent antenna Receive/Transmit channels
in duplexed configuration, to be used in a sectorial or omni-directional
antenna structure. Each channel consists of two back-to-back duplexers,
an LNA, a 20 dB directional coupler, a bias tee and lightning protectors.
Installed next to the antenna, each one of the TTA channels is connected
to a Rx/Tx antenna at the Antenna port and to the BTS at the Rx/Tx Port
through coaxial feeder cable. The TTA with VSWR Monitor Option has a dual
directional coupler to monitor the forward and reflected power. When antenna
mismatch (VSWR) exceeds a preset level, the TTA sends coded alarm signal
(serial data) to the PDU through the test coax cable. The PDU decodes this
data and displays VSWR fault for the relevant channel. The TTA unit is
lightning protected, utilizing EMP suppression arrangements by GDT (Gas
Discharge Tube) and transient voltage suppressors. The TTA with the relay
bypass Option has a failsafe transfer switch bypasses the LNA when the
voltage to the TTA is switched off (Bypass Mode).

Tower-mounted amplifier - 3 Channels - Electrical
block diagram:

Product configuration :

TTA MODEL NO.

MW-TTA-H-3-BP

(With Bypass)

MW-TTA-H-3V-BP

(with LNA Bypass & with
VSWR Monitor)

PDU

MW-PDU-3C-B

MW-PDU-3CV-B

PDU (with internal Bias
Tee)

MW-PDU-3CT-B

MW-PDU-3CVT-B

ATTENUATOR BOX

MW-ATT-3

MW-ATT-3

BIAS TEE

MW9070.17.0001

MW9070.17.0001

Frequency range :

DOWN-LINK

UP-LINK

851-866

806-821

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---

From: Jack Daniel <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:07:37 -0800

Marcel,

I'm not sure what triggers you to post advertisements, especially when
they are not newsworthy, but that's your decision.

However, you may have forgotten that I (and others) have posted many
complaints about unethical distributors that have mislead their
customers concrning the legal use of signal boosters, and Cellantenna
was one of the worse offenders. 

It appears Dekolink / Elisra has sank to the lowest level of
distribution.

I respectfully request you remember this when assisting them in their
future advertising. 

Jack Daniel
========================================================

 
Yahoo! Groups Links

---

From: Marcel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:35:25 -0500

> they are not newsworthy, but that's your decision.

Nextel recently purchased over 100 of these TTA's according to an Engineering
manager I spoke to.
He indicated that they are using this unit to reduce co-channel interference
and increase reuse at their Quasi sites.

I was not promoting their BDA's by no means. Several RF Engineers for ConEd
here were wondering about the TTA's Nextel is currently using and were
looking for a TTA solution.

> was one of the worse offenders.

I know-

> I respectfully request you remember this when assisting them in their

I know  that is why I did not reference their BDA.

> Jack Daniel

-

 
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---

From: michael Ackison <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:15:51 -0800 (PST)

what does TTA stand for ??????????????????

Marcel <[email-masked]> wrote:

I know-

-

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From: Marcel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:25:38 -0500

Tower Top Amplifier
It amplifies weak Radio Frequency signals

---

From: michael Ackison <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:42:59 -0800 (PST)

so is that why nextels signal is bad/weak and what are they going to do,are they going to fix it?????

Marcel <[email-masked]> wrote:Tower Top Amplifier 
It amplifies weak Radio Frequency signals 
michael Ackison wrote:  what does TTA stand for ?????????????????? 
Marcel <[email-masked]> wrote:   
I know- 

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---

From: Rick Parrish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:09:32 -0600

Sorry for the TLAs ...

Tower Top Amps vs. Tower Base Amps ...

I've long wondered why we don't see more tower or mast mounted RF power 
equipment. Seems like it would be more efficient -

* no heavy hardline to run up the length of the tower;
* energy savings and
* longer life when running on battery back up.

Thoughts anyone?

-rick

 
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---

From: Marcel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:25:55 -0500

Motorola said  years ago that  maintenance  cost were to high over an
extended period. The MTBF on components manufactured by others was too low.

 
Yahoo! Groups Links

---

From: Marcel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:19:18 -0500

This unit amplifies the signal (Uplink) from the Handset to the
Cellsite. The signal  (downlink) from the Cellsite to  the handset  is
unaffected by the TTA except for some insertion loss.

Nextel's coverage problems go back to 1995. They are focused on
providing coverage to the highest revenue areas 1st.

Nextel adds at least 1500 new cell sites per yr. where they go is based
on numerous criterias.

---

From: "Rik Rasmussen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:19:11 -0500

There was at one time a system that put the amps at the top and used fiber
to the ground.

Can't remember who the manufacturer was.

Rik Rasmussen
Two Way Radio Directory
http://twowayradiodirectory.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcel [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 3:26 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [NEXTEL-1] TTAs vs. TBAs
>
>

 
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---

From: Rick Parrish <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:51:11 -0600

>extended period. The MTBF on components manufactured by others was too low.
That's suprises me ...

Hmm ... just to be clear - I'm not talking about putting the entire cell 
site rack up on a pole, just the RF portion. Everything else would be in 
a shack or weatherproof cabinet at ground level.

-rick

 
Yahoo! Groups Links

---

From: Marcel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:29:32 -0500

> a shack or weatherproof cabinet at ground level.

Correct-
This was years ago before RF amps, Filtering, and other components were compact
.
I think it could be done but your Tech would also need to be a Tower Dawg also.
It will now require 2 men (safety) to swap out an amp.

 
Yahoo! Groups Links

---

From: "Gregg Lengling" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:29:46 -0000

It was a system that Andrew was marketing..never saw one installed though.

Gregg R. Lengling, W9DHI, Retired
Administrator http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org
K2/100 S#3075 KX1 S# 57
Politics is the art of appearing candid and completely open, while
concealing as much as possible.   -States: The Bene Gesserit View

-----Original Message-----
From: Rik Rasmussen [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 12:19 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: [NEXTEL-1] TTAs vs. TBAs

Rik Rasmussen
Two Way Radio Directory

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From: Paul J Zawada <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:28:35 -0600

> I know  that is why I did not reference their BDA.

But it is interesting that an outfit that primarily markets stuff to 
consumers (rightly or wrongly) has a piece of base station equipment on 
their web site.   Are they the only distribution channel Elisra could 
find?

If the ConEd guys are looking into TTAs, I'd recommend that they look 
at TX RX...  TX RX revamped their product line a couple of years ago 
and now have some nice offerings.  (And no, Jack didn't ask me to put 
in a plug for them...)

--zawada

 
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---

From: Marcel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:02:02 -0500

Tx/Rx was mt 1st suggestion but they are working on a tight budget .

 
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---

From: Jack Daniel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:18:43 -0800

I'm getting into the discussion late, but in 1992 Decibel products
offered a fiber fed "Lite Link" transmit amp at the top for a short
period. It had 50 to 150 watt 800 MHz band power top amps. 

I don't know why but it wasn't around very long, neither were some other
Decibel fiber fed products.

A company I was with several years earlier actually put so-called linear
amps near the top of a few 400 ft towers. The first problem was it
seemed that amps favored failing in bad weather and trapping lightning,
so you couldn't service them for hours or days and that's not good for a
carrier. We then fabricated a cage and hoisting block contraption that
allowed you to lower and raise the amps from the ground. By the time we
had something that was weather-tight and incorporated very expensive and
reliable 'blind' self-seating RF and power connectors, it was cheaper to
buy larger coax and put power amps at the bottom.

Jack Daniel
===========================================

 
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---

From: Jack Daniel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:20:24 -0800

Marcel, 
It might surprize them but TX RX may have been less expensive. 
Seems a lot of others are raising prices faster than TX RX.
But nothing of quality is cheap.

Jack Daniel
=======================================================

 
Yahoo! Groups Links

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:34:52 -0500

> period. It had 50 to 150 watt 800 MHz band power top amps.

Was this a LMR unit?

Moto's reasoning was from the Cellular group.
What was the emission designator for the unit?
I guess it was and "analog" unit?

> carrier.

That was Moto's thinking too.

> We then fabricated a cage and hoisting block contraption that

I bet it was costly!

 
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---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:41:14 -0500

I will pass it on. I favor TX/RX over any other manufacture!

 
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---

From: Jack Daniel <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 17:09:11 -0800

You're making me dig out my archives of 'interesting but unsuccessful'
products. It amuses me when another generation 'discovers' old ideas,
like 'push to talk'.

Anyway, Decibel had 850-870 and 870-896 MHz versions. Since they also
manufactured stand-alone power amps at the time, I suspect they used the
FCC-TA of an existing amp. 

At the same time they had the "OTR-90" a fiber fed remote site
'extension' targeted at analog cellular (AMPS) , so it reasonable they
were focused on cellular with the tower-top TX amp also.

For the bar bet trivia; they called the fiber optic portion " RLR
(radio-to-light-to-radio)" and claim it was patented.  

About that time they were working on OEM deals with Ortel and that
cpould have been the source of the internal FO subassemblies.

and that's about all I know about the subject.

Whoops, did  I mention the high power amps were fan cooled? 

Jack Daniel
=================================

 
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---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:15:05 -0500

Thanks for the info-

 
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---

From: "Mark Hernandez" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:09:14 +0800

Hi,

I would like to seek technical assistance from you guys who are expert in
Nextel System. Is it possible for the iDEN system be used on VSAT platform?
Is there any limitations doing this? I am proposing with Next Mobile, Inc.
(Phils) the possibility of using their iDEN on our satellite capacity. Is
there an issue in on the latency on the dispatch call?

Thanks,

Mark Andrew Hernandez
Technical Integrator

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Daniel [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 7:20 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [NEXTEL-1] iDEN TTA Dekolink - MW-TTA-H-3x-BP

Marcel,

Jack Daniel

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From: Rick Parrish <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 05:25:12 -0600

Mark Hernandez wrote:

>Is there an issue in on the latency on the dispatch call?
>  
>
[non-expert opinion] I'm guessing by the 6 slot TDMA nature of iDEN 
that, yes, there could be issues.
-rick

 
Yahoo! Groups Links

---

From: Marcelrf <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:59:47 -0500

Craig McCaw (ICO- mobile satellite service ) and Motorola have been working on
integrating  his satellite network with iDEN. Craig claims that he can use his
network to provide "Global Dispatch" using ICO's network. VSAT presents a few
challeges. As you know VSAT satellites are located approximately 23,000 miles
above the equator. A dispacth call round-trip transmission would  travel 23,000
miles to the satellite, 23,000 miles from the satellite to the remote site, and
then as the data acknowledgment is returned, another 46,000 miles on the return
trip. That's a total round trip of about 92,000 miles.

Even at the speed of light, this accounts for more delay (in milliseconds) than
found in a terrestrial network. Each time a data packet is handled by a device
along the path ( “hop”) several milliseconds of latency are induced.  Timing is
a critical issue to assure the proper transfer of voice and data calls between
iDEN sites. To assure proper processing, each site must have highly accurate
time information to provide a timing offset to adjust for the signal
propagation time across the network. The EBTS's use acommon GPS timing pulse.

Since voice and data information could use different paths to travel across the
networks the data would have to be adjusted for time-delay based on the route
the data traveled. If control information takes a longer path than the data or
voice information, there would be a mismatch of information at the destination.
Now this is nothing new Moto has been working to compensate for addional
delays.

Can iDEN tolerate this in its current cunfiguration? Yes, but site timing may
produce some unwanted results. Engineers at Moto have said that iDEN latency
could be as much as 2.5 seconds using a satellite network, however I'm certain
that if ICO/Mototdeploy global dispatch the delays will be minmized.

I see several  major obsticales:

   * Bandwidth / Capacity
   * Pleisiochronous Timing
   * Isochronous Timing
   * Reliability
   * Cost

I'm not a VSAT expert so I'm sure others will have some insight to share on
this topic.
Do some DD on ICO and see what they have been up to. Check the US patent office
for any new developments.