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[64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Tue, 03 Dec 2019 21:04:09 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|ldaigle@thinkingcat.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Glossy-White: 2e711ca007d83f59_1575407048980_3695889608 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1575407048980:2295283849 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1575407048979 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a96.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a96.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D45F81010; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:04:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=z4HFIHvrUs8IQS X7mLkWO7En7xg=; b=qIUqYQsYoa04QbJHcBntplXpBl9/Iis85M6HNhp9nYgcxz je3QKMvndwUJ2zRtOSmSfcdLgwPeaDJ+4ySb3oQx/gaiAGtkeeERi04P6C96x0Wi YFpERgfCSAw7H+cxfSozCkwx4FQ2OQBz/fQ4uhYyrT5N3li+2y9gtIgcoVxMU= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a96.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6F72781012; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:04:03 -0800 (PST) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a96 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: mops@ietf.org Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:03:52 -0500 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13r5655) Message-ID: <460F2472-5918-45FC-AE9F-C00AB94EDE06@thinkingcat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_F39F15E4-A44F-437B-BC4B-F8145F036EC8_=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] IETF 106 is done; Looking toward IETF 107 Re: Last Call -- Minutes from MOPS at IETF 106 in Singapore X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 21:04:13 -0000 --=_MailMate_F39F15E4-A44F-437B-BC4B-F8145F036EC8_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed; markup=markdown Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi again, I=E2=80=99ve submitted the minutes=20 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/minutes-106-mops-00),= =20 so we can call IETF 106 MOPS, our first meeting, complete. If you missed it, the video is available here: =20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4_k340xT2jM . And, it=E2=80=99s not too soon to look forward to IETF 107! WG scheduli= ng=20 requests are going to be due in January. Then we=E2=80=99ll have about = a=20 month to put together our agenda. Updates on documents will be useful=20 in that timeframe, too. So, as I said in the meeting, review (mentally or with the video above)=20 what we covered in Singapore, and let me know if you have thoughts for=20 topical areas we might want to get into in Vancouver. I=E2=80=99ve alr= eady=20 fingered =E2=80=9CV3=E2=80=9D as a maybe=E2=80=A6 Let me know what else we should be thinking of. Leslie. On 25 Nov 2019, at 11:25, Leslie Daigle wrote: > Hi, > > I=E2=80=99ve copied the current state of the MOPS minutes below. Assum= ing=20 > there are no objections, I will plan to post these on Tuesday,=20 > December 3, 2019. > > If there are errors or omissions, please let me know. > > Thanks, > > Leslie. > > MOPs November 21 2019 - First MOPs WG meeting ever! > Alas, in conflict with TSVWG... > Chairs: Leslie Daigle, Glenn Deen > > > No comments on agenda bash > Intro to WG > > Review of Concrete work itmes > [15min] Draft of edge network operational considerations for streaming=20 > media > - Jake Holland > - draft-jholland-mops-taxonomy > On milestone but not adopted > > Key question: how to calculate the demand vs capacity in a way that=20 > will be useful for communicating today and archiving for posterity > > [] > [Jake] there is a mismatch between the maximum > [Martin Thompson] try to break to where the capacity is important=20 > (last mile, core) > [Dave Oran] is there a correlation between high demand and live=20 > data. > [Glenn Deen] perhaps produce two charts, one for on-demand file to=20 > stream delivery and the other for live. different metrics are=20 > important, latency, BW,.. > [Jake] there is some trext about ABR in the document > [Leslie Daigle] it seems there is interset in the content, need to=20 > see if this is a WG asopt. > > Action > [Leslie] are we in favor of adopting > [Leslie] Some hum for adopting low hum against it. 3 for in the=20 > jabber. > > [Aaron Falk] use known metrics. > [Jake] will be happy to have co-authors. > > > Hum taken to adopt the document - hum appeared to support adoption > > > > ### Updates from elsewhere > > * Updates from other organizations' work > - [15min] Sanjay Mishra - Streaming Video Alliance Labs initiative > slide 3 is the list of the technical WGs > SVA labs open source slide 6 what they did so far in open caching > > [Leslie] did you provide feedback to the CDNI WG, not only brining=20 > new work. > [Sanjay] the WG chiar are aware of what is happening in SVA. > [Aaron] the slide colors are bad > > no more comments and questions > > > > - [5min] Glenn Deen -- reflections from SMPTE 2019 > > Time synchronization is important > [Roni Even]How to synchronize media from different sources e.g.=20 > different cameras with gos clocks. How is the media sent over the IP=20 > network and address the clock resolutions > [Aaron] there is work in ITU on time solution. it is good if we can=20 > capture in MOPS the use case > [Dave] data centers have more precise time and should be taken into=20 > account. use atomic clocks that are now cheap > [Glenn] there is no one way for measuring or distributing time. > [Aaron] what is the focus in Jake's draft, production ,...? > [Leslie] on the edge side > > [Glenn] security and integrity of time distribution is important in=20 > this space and maybe an new area of work/focus > [Aaron] capturing SMPTE operational use cases and issues around=20 > time in draft maybe useful > > > > ### General discussion of issues > * Operational Issues Observed > - [15min] Igor Lubashev -- QUIC and streaming > how to measure delay and loss when the inforamtion is encryptes=20 > (QUIC) > [Spencer Dawkins] first time OPS WG discuss this topic and not in=20 > Transport. Why using similar TCP flow is not enough > [Igor] TCP and UDP applications getting different treatment. > [Bernard Aboba] this assumes similar streaming applications, need=20 > more detail to allow the network to support for example layered media > Spin bit in QUIC V1; support for loss bits may be in a QUIC=20 > extension. > Need feedback from operators about the need for such montoring=20 > tools, were not present in QUIC WG > [Spencer] explict signalling does it involve the endpoint > [Igor] yes. > [Spencer] do not understand how you can measure without involving=20 > the endpoints. This is a good direction, wish we started years ago > [Igor] QUIC is new and scaled up the problem > [Colin Perkins] there is a draft in tsvwg about the effects of=20 > header encryptions, please review the part about the network managment > [Sanjay] this is good, there was feedback from operators and will=20 > continue to follow > [Saker] how do you do without involving endpoints, there is work in=20 > MOSQUE to add explicit signals using proxies > [Emile Stephan] as operator require the monitoring of network, were=20 > involved in spin bit and now working on loss bit. > [Spencer] there was the plus BOF in Berlin talkin about providing=20 > information to on path observers which could not form a WG. > [Emile] do not provide the session keys to the observers. endpoint=20 > support is important > [Colin] in conferencing video there is the RTCP for reporting ftom=20 > the Endpoint. using reports from endpoints can be helpful. > > > General discusion of issues > > [Eric Vyncke, responsible AD] happy with the session > > > AOB > > Thanks to Roni Even for taking notes during the session. > > > High level summary as posted to Operations & Management wiki: > > First meeting as a WG. Discussion of draft-jholland-mops-taxonomy=20 > (edge network operational considerations for streaming media), and=20 > formal adoption as a WG work item. Jake Holland would welcome a=20 > co-author to help move it forward. > > Updates from elsewhere -- Streaming Video Alliance's use of CDNI=20 > protocol work; Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers=20 > (SMPTE) recent meeting highlights -- clear dependencies on reliable=20 > and granular time reporting in operations. > > Issues for streaming operations -- overview of QUIC implications for=20 > networks streaming video. There are extensions proposed in the QUIC=20 > WG, and operators interested in media delivery should go there to=20 > weigh in. > > > --=20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Leslie Daigle > Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises > ldaigle@thinkingcat.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_F39F15E4-A44F-437B-BC4B-F8145F036EC8_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi again,

I=E2=80=99ve submitted the minutes (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/minutes-1= 06-mops-00), so we can call IETF 106 MOPS, our first meeting, complet= e.

If you missed it, the video is available here: h= ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4_k340xT2jM .

And, it=E2=80=99s not too soon to look forward to IETF 10= 7! WG scheduling requests are going to be due in January. Then we=E2=80= =99ll have about a month to put together our agenda. Updates on document= s will be useful in that timeframe, too.

So, as I said in the meeting, review (mentally or with th= e video above) what we covered in Singapore, and let me know if you have = thoughts for topical areas we might want to get into in Vancouver. I=E2= =80=99ve already fingered =E2=80=9CV3=E2=80=9D as a maybe=E2=80=A6

Let me know what else we should be thinking of.

Leslie.

On 25 Nov 2019, at 11:25, Leslie Daigle wrote:

Hi,

I=E2=80=99ve copied the current state of the MOPS minutes= below. Assuming there are no objections, I will plan to post these on T= uesday, December 3, 2019.

If there are errors or omissions, please let me know.

=

Thanks,

Leslie.

MOPs November 21 2019 - First MOPs WG meeting ever!
Alas, in conflict with TSVWG...
Chairs: Leslie Daigle, Glenn Deen

No comments on agenda bash
Intro to WG

Review of Concrete work itmes
[15min] Draft of edge network operational considerations for streaming me= dia
- Jake Holland
- draft-jholland-mops-taxonomy
On milestone but not adopted

Key question: how to calculate the demand vs capacity in = a way that will be useful for communicating today and archiving for poste= rity

[]
[Jake] there is a mismatch between the maximum
[Martin Thompson] try to break to where the capacity is important (las= t mile, core)
[Dave Oran] is there a correlation between high demand and live data.<= br> [Glenn Deen] perhaps produce two charts, one for on-demand file to str= eam delivery and the other for live. different metrics are important, lat= ency, BW,..
[Jake] there is some trext about ABR in the document
[Leslie Daigle] it seems there is interset in the content, need to see= if this is a WG asopt.

Action
[Leslie] are we in favor of adopting
[Leslie] Some hum for adopting low hum against it. 3 for in the jabber= =2E

[Aaron Falk] use known metrics.
[Jake] will be happy to have co-authors.

Hum taken to adopt the document - hum appeared to suppor= t adoption

Updates from elsewhere

  • Updates from other organizations' work

    • [15min] Sanjay Mishra - Streaming Video Alliance Labs initiative slide 3 is the list of the technical WGs SVA labs open source slide 6 what they did so far in open caching

    [Leslie] did you provide feedback to the CDNI WG, not onl= y brining new work.
    [Sanjay] the WG chiar are aware of what is happening in SVA.
    [Aaron] the slide colors are bad

    no more comments and questions
    - [5min] Glenn Deen -- reflections from SMPTE 2019

    Time synchronization is important
    [Roni Even]How to synchronize media from different sources e.g. different= cameras with gos clocks. How is the media sent over the IP network and a= ddress the clock resolutions
    [Aaron] there is work in ITU on time solution. it is good if we can captu= re in MOPS the use case
    [Dave] data centers have more precise time and should be taken into accou= nt. use atomic clocks that are now cheap
    [Glenn] there is no one way for measuring or distributing time.
    [Aaron] what is the focus in Jake's draft, production ,...?
    [Leslie] on the edge side

    [Glenn] security and integrity of time distribution is im= portant in this space and maybe an new area of work/focus
    [Aaron] capturing SMPTE operational use cases and issues around time in d= raft maybe useful

General discussion of issues

  • Operational Issues Observed
    • [15min] Igor Lubashev -- QUIC and streaming how to measure delay and loss when the inforamtion is encryptes (QUIC) [Spencer Dawkins] first time OPS WG discuss this topic and not in Transpo= rt. Why using similar TCP flow is not enough [Igor] TCP and UDP applications getting different treatment. [Bernard Aboba] this assumes similar streaming applications, need more de= tail to allow the network to support for example layered media Spin bit in QUIC V1; support for loss bits may be in a QUIC extension. Need feedback from operators about the need for such montoring tools, wer= e not present in QUIC WG [Spencer] explict signalling does it involve the endpoint [Igor] yes. [Spencer] do not understand how you can measure without involving the end= points. This is a good direction, wish we started years ago [Igor] QUIC is new and scaled up the problem [Colin Perkins] there is a draft in tsvwg about the effects of header enc= ryptions, please review the part about the network managment [Sanjay] this is good, there was feedback from operators and will continu= e to follow [Saker] how do you do without involving endpoints, there is work in MOSQU= E to add explicit signals using proxies [Emile Stephan] as operator require the monitoring of network, were invol= ved in spin bit and now working on loss bit. [Spencer] there was the plus BOF in Berlin talkin about providing informa= tion to on path observers which could not form a WG. [Emile] do not provide the session keys to the observers. endpoint suppor= t is important [Colin] in conferencing video there is the RTCP for reporting ftom the En= dpoint. using reports from endpoints can be helpful.

General discusion of issues

[Eric Vyncke, responsible AD] happy with the session

AOB

Thanks to Roni Even for taking notes during the session.<= /p>

High level summary as posted to Operations & Manageme= nt wiki:

First meeting as a WG. Discussion of draft-jholland-mops= -taxonomy (edge network operational considerations for streaming media), = and formal adoption as a WG work item. Jake Holland would welcome a co-a= uthor to help move it forward.

Updates from elsewhere -- Streaming Video Alliance's use = of CDNI protocol work; Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers= (SMPTE) recent meeting highlights -- clear dependencies on reliable and = granular time reporting in operations.

Issues for streaming operations -- overview of QUIC impli= cations for networks streaming video. There are extensions proposed in t= he QUIC WG, and operators interested in media delivery should go there to= weigh in.

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

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Sun, 8 Dec 2019 11:23:49 +0000 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: "mops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Change in the MOPS chairs Thread-Index: AQHVrbn22AWt/Q/GU0u9GUGofsCn0Q== Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 11:23:49 +0000 Message-ID: <6E0E1CF2-542F-46FE-8E7D-EED3FC496F2C@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evyncke@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c8:1001::93] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2c6e9729-e09c-4d29-b1c5-08d77bd11906 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1417: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-forefront-prvs: 0245702D7B x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(346002)(396003)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(376002)(199004)(189003)(99286004)(478600001)(2906002)(2616005)(6506007)(186003)(102836004)(71190400001)(71200400001)(91956017)(316002)(5660300002)(66556008)(58126008)(66946007)(66446008)(76116006)(66476007)(64756008)(36756003)(6916009)(33656002)(5640700003)(6486002)(54896002)(6512007)(4744005)(86362001)(81166006)(8676002)(1730700003)(81156014)(8936002); 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