From nobody Tue May 5 07:11:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1246F3A07AB; Tue, 5 May 2020 07:11:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C61q32s4LAXP; Tue, 5 May 2020 07:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82D7F3A07A7; Tue, 5 May 2020 07:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id e9so2046531iok.9; Tue, 05 May 2020 07:11:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0r+jenEV3F4TT/AlAcUiUoH0Yksn0rIQaneP+YCwwds=; b=QveJPZluGeO5Bc4BzF1Pt4yAzbgRjOO9IHFsvzbsUweMAl3IVmkAyarkMZpPbi16Zp 2gG/F/TZexTsCgJ1gqWasV+qwfHxlmCMiBteFv9BhuHVXl81+slrwcSO0NANTolxgalu HZ5iVhJg0K4lEKBa5SnSFpM3KF4eGQhdu1s2FweLj6j8Xvx+06c9J/IPH/NlncrohITj IupyC/wIeI69bp0LefPPrTfO6AWMi88elKLmz6KzRcMBAC87KNIPgqKNzVJdIS5GjR2/ TT452agbhkrMYgkof+2UjAFSvvKP5c2UCeQ/3W39RmQeympxUqLcdP0E1ZpEpvKCuff7 juvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0r+jenEV3F4TT/AlAcUiUoH0Yksn0rIQaneP+YCwwds=; b=RzW/CyTQPdLv/8OWK6lCwOPIuDJi2XScz1lsY1goAb+JLnrRQBR+fI2AQ6yBd3rDN0 Jd/iE5tZE5vO5yFBOHlFhrKRbLF9aeE6PvX8hSY7sVbyQLRAoazuTyxMn+c3ZSJItmFz qVi2Mns70knSFofYQkb4je31wofgkOTGoNmGlQXExEp88ETF/I4HCVpPHzG626s96/QE eUw+ezHn8O0yGR3oQf2LYcC3jHEvMZ6zPihpf6ouCUZVgiIhUn0azcXME7S9zGLCF2Vm BoJRN1doLSJefgCbXpjmH5leV35NuGWUuw4ZLMJmhzTPrRrZxW+vVjLBEHUjEy2GEQXY awqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaEwV3dC2ldL/xj2qnaep7/NNI1vcgUuq9Q01oYYKEos8vk+bkv /6NwSb/dBRi9J8CsQS2NmQWgcw4S6Ni9ayPzNiaGZnzulpc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ42d5OzDnoT6V3Uso7EK68XlXy3ZbMy3Mhg30cGHta9BNLmjXvxWZpIctviuhgzfdc8zZEfgQ/zHnbobUhx8c= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9a0d:: with SMTP id b13mr3647966jal.60.1588687910722; Tue, 05 May 2020 07:11:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5C294848-824F-4EBC-B690-398754CC6B31@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 10:11:39 -0400 Message-ID: To: gjshep@gmail.com Cc: "Holland, Jake" , MBONED WG , "mops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000093e25d05a4e73a18" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [MBONED] DVB: New Multicast Video Spec X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 14:11:55 -0000 --00000000000093e25d05a4e73a18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jake This is great news with MPEG-DASH and reliable multicast and adaptive bit rate. I actually sent an email below excerpt to QUIC WG related to possibly using QUIC variant to provide reliable multicast email below. So the issue is multicast is uni directional so there is no feedback ACK so you would have to create a variant of QUIC the with data channel over QUIC and side band control channel for the ACK feedback for reliable multicast. This is however outside of the QUIC WG charter so if anything it would be a individual submission but would not get WG adoption. ***email to QUIC WG*** QUIC WG Has anyone ever tried using QUIC with multicastRTP UDP streamed using QUIC transport. Multicast has always been problematic with use on the internet MBONE and even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport for MPEG4 MPEG-TS and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS multicast has struggled with using UDP transport. Multicast has thus required stringent end to end QOS in profile guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drops to avoid dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and buffering. Since QUIC is a secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional flows it would be a perfect fit for multicast. This would be a game changer for multicast as over the internet which you don=E2=80=99t have any QOS guarantee. Kind regards Gyan On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:59 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > Thanks Jake! The ball is starting to roll.. > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:18 PM Holland, Jake 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> Hi mops and mboned participants, >> >> I wanted to let you all know about a new spec that has recently come to = my >> attention from the DVB SDO, detailing a new standard approach to >> delivering >> video over multicast, via reliable delivery of video segments that >> interoperate with DASH players: >> >> >> https://dvb.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/A176_Adaptive-Media-Streaming= -over-IP-Multicast_Mar-2020.pdf >> >> Something to be aware of, and hopefully helpful to some of us. >> >> Best regards, >> Jake >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MBONED mailing list >> MBONED@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned >> > _______________________________________________ > MBONED mailing list > MBONED@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned > --=20 Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --00000000000093e25d05a4e73a18 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jake

This is great news with MPEG-DASH and reliable multicast and adap= tive bit rate.

I actuall= y sent an email below excerpt to QUIC WG related to possibly using QUIC var= iant to provide reliable multicast email below.=C2=A0 So the issue is multi= cast is uni directional so there is no feedback ACK so you would have to cr= eate a variant of QUIC the with data channel over QUIC and side band contro= l channel for the ACK feedback for reliable multicast.=C2=A0 This is howeve= r outside of the QUIC WG charter so if anything it would be a individual su= bmission but would not get WG adoption.

***email to QUIC WG***

QUIC=C2=A0WG

Has anyone ev= er tried using=C2=A0QUIC=C2=A0with=C2=A0mult= icastRTP UDP streamed using=C2=A0QUIC=C2=A0transp= ort.
=
Multicast=C2=A0has always been problemati= c with use on the internet MBONE and even on intranets due the unreliable U= DP RTP transport for MPEG4 MPEG-TS and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs a= nd HLS=C2=A0multicast=C2=A0has struggled with using UDP = transport.

Multicast=C2=A0has thus required st= ringent end to end QOS in profile guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by ho= p PHB to ensue no drops to avoid dropping of I frame resulting in client fr= ozen window and buffering.

Since=C2=A0QUIC=C2= =A0is a secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional flows it woul= d be a perfect fit for=C2=A0multicast. =C2=A0

= This would be a game changer for=C2=A0multicast=C2=A0as = over the internet which you don=E2=80=99t have any QOS guarantee.


Kind regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:59 AM = Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Thanks = Jake! The ball is starting to roll..

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:18 PM Hollan= d, Jake <jholland=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi mops and mboned participants,

I wanted to let you all know about a new spec that has recently come to my<= br> attention from the DVB SDO, detailing a new standard approach to delivering=
video over multicast, via reliable delivery of video segments that
interoperate with DASH players:

https://dvb.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/A176_Adaptive-Media-Streaming= -over-IP-Multicast_Mar-2020.pdf

Something to be aware of, and hopefully helpful to some of us.

Best regards,
Jake


_______________________________________________
MBONED mailing list
MBONED@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
_______________________________________________
MBONED mailing list
MBONED@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology= =C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20= 904

Phone: 301 502-1347

<= font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com



--00000000000093e25d05a4e73a18-- From nobody Tue May 5 09:38:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338473A09BA for ; Tue, 5 May 2020 09:38:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thinkingcat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8FrEBEnsVxkE for ; Tue, 5 May 2020 09:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from azure.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (azure.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBE2F3A095A for ; 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Tue, 5 May 2020 09:38:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=thinkingcat.com; h=from:to :subject:date:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=thinkingcat.com; bh=1c3tOtwhuQhKci HRqfidMkSfusc=; b=qi/qaRtvTVXeC28fkWMHjnwsCsnBYuXp/YCjkDt6eL586P +fCX2kis53YKprT23yM7UzjuuwAX6XlJ40+mpz8wZENhEK1rzkt0cnrRKo/ZcCYW 0eZmPMdyqG2vUPetR/w5kmW0HuyN8PepWufLFNTZi5bWfbeEbbrmh4XTv6s6I= Received: from [192.168.1.57] (vtelinet-216-66-102-83.vermontel.net [216.66.102.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ldaigle@thinkingcat.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D8AD7B4B61; Tue, 5 May 2020 09:38:42 -0700 (PDT) X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a87 From: "Leslie Daigle" To: mops@ietf.org Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 12:38:33 -0400 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <261201F1-02FA-4CA5-8C01-8088BAA70257@thinkingcat.com> References: <158857581528.28405.17372040856513106617@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_MailMate_AAAB16C6-2140-4D25-99AA-5CED0C45984C_=" X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrjeeigdellecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhephffvufffoffkfhggtgfgsegrkehmreertdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfnfgvshhlihgvucffrghighhlvgdfuceolhgurghighhlvgesthhhihhnkhhinhhgtggrthdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeehudffhfejieeujeekfeffkeefueehudevvdeuheegteffjeetledtueevhfelnecuffhomhgrihhnpehsuhhrvhgvhihmohhnkhgvhidrtghomhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecukfhppedvudeirdeiiedruddtvddrkeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplgduledvrdduieekrddurdehjegnpdhinhgvthepvdduiedrieeirddutddvrdekfedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthhepfdfnvghslhhivgcuffgrihhglhgvfdcuoehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhmpdhnrhgtphhtthhopehluggrihhglhgvsehthhhinhhkihhnghgtrghtrdgtohhm Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Mops] Fwd: Reminder: Survey on planning for possible online IETF meetings X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 16:38:53 -0000 --=_MailMate_AAAB16C6-2140-4D25-99AA-5CED0C45984C_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You=E2=80=99ve perhaps heard this on other WG lists =E2=80=94 but, Alissa= has=20 rightly asked WG chairs to make sure everyone has seen the call for=20 input to the survey on possible future virtual IETF meetings. The IETF ExecDir=E2=80=99s e-mail is copied below, with the explanation a= nd=20 link for the survey itself. Please do contribute, so we can make sure=20 that any future virtual IETFs (and, by extension, virtual MOPS WG=20 meetings) are as well constructed as possible. Leslie. --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: > From: IETF Executive Director > To: IETF Announcement List > Subject: Reminder: Survey on planning for possible online IETF=20 > meetings > Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 00:03:35 -0700 > > This is a reminder that we need the IETF community to help us plan for=20 > the possibility that one or more upcoming IETF meetings in 2020 and=20 > possibly 2021 may not be able to go ahead in person. You can help us=20 > with this by filling out the following survey: > > https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5328FFJ > > So far we have 114 responses and we would ideally like 500 or more. > > The survey contains the following pages and will take 15-20 minutes to=20 > complete: > > 1. Welcome > 2. Online IETF 107 and the subsequent virtual interims > 3. Replacing a cancelled in-person meeting > 4. Online meeting format and timezone > 5. Replicating humming > 6. Replicating the hallway environment > 7. Fees > 8. Thanks and anything else > > We run the survey in anonymous mode which means that we only see data=20 > that you explicitly provide. > > Thank you in advance for your help. > > --=20 > Alissa Cooper, IETF Chair > Jay Daley, IETF Executive Director > Colin Perkins, IRTF Chair > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --=_MailMate_AAAB16C6-2140-4D25-99AA-5CED0C45984C_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You=E2=80=99ve perhaps heard this on other WG lists =E2=80= =94 but, Alissa has rightly asked WG chairs to make sure everyone has see= n the call for input to the survey on possible future virtual IETF meetin= gs.

The IETF ExecDir=E2=80=99s e-mail is copied below, with t= he explanation and link for the survey itself. Please do contribute, so = we can make sure that any future virtual IETFs (and, by extension, virtua= l MOPS WG meetings) are as well constructed as possible.

Leslie.

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

Forwarded message:

F= rom: IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org>
To: IETF Announcement List <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Subject: Reminder: Survey on planning for possible online IETF meetings Date: Mon, 04 May 2020 00:03:35 -0700

This is a reminder that we need the IETF community to help us plan for th= e possibility that one or more upcoming IETF meetings in 2020 and possibl= y 2021 may not be able to go ahead in person. You can help us with this = by filling out the following survey:

= https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5328FFJ

So far we have 114 responses and we would ideally like 500 or more.

The survey contains the following pages and will take 15-20 minutes to co= mplete:

1. Welcome
2. Online IETF 107 and the subsequent virtual interims
3. Replacing a cancelled in-person meeting
4. Online meeting format and timezone
5. Replicating humming
6. Replicating the hallway environment
7. Fees
8. Thanks and anything else

We run the survey in anonymous mode which means that we only see data tha= t you explicitly provide.

Thank you in advance for your help.

--
Alissa Cooper, IETF Chair
Jay Daley, IETF Executive Director
Colin Perkins, IRTF Chair

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

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Delivered-To: mops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BF33A0C6C; Tue, 5 May 2020 17:12:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XSzfqxzqWk7d; Tue, 5 May 2020 17:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 20:12:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Holland, Jake" Cc: "gjshep@gmail.com" , MBONED WG , "mops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000033d4e705a4ef9ef5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Mops] [MBONED] DVB: New Multicast Video Spec X-BeenThere: mops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Media OPerationS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 May 2020 00:12:25 -0000 --00000000000033d4e705a4ef9ef5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Jake for all the informational links and feedback. Kind regards Gyan On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 5:07 PM Holland, Jake wrote: > Hi Gyan, > > > > Thanks for sending the note about that. I hadn=E2=80=99t been watching t= he QUIC > list, and I think there=E2=80=99s a few things to mention in response tha= t might be > more in-scope for mops and mboned than for QUIC: > > > > 1. > > QUIC for RTP got some consideration a few years back (without the > multicast angle). You might want to read an old thread or 2 discussing t= he > idea, like this one: > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/discuss-webrtc/aRvnniKe-88 > > > > AFAICT, the concept ended up reformulated as webtransport + webcodecs, > which is an active set of coupled projects that looks like it might go > somewhere.[1] > > > > 2. > > Coming back to multicast (particularly the reliable multicast point you > mentioned), there=E2=80=99s some interesting work from the BBC on reliabl= e > transport using a multicast QUIC variant. You might be interested to tak= e > a look at these: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast-06 > > https://github.com/bbc/nghq > > > > To me it seems a fine option for application-level generalized object > transport, and I made some changes along the way to AMBI > (draft-ietf-mboned-ambi) to make sure that I think it can cover the > transport-layer authenticity concerns that are briefly mentioned in the > quic-http-mcast doc, as well as the other protocols that get carried over > multicast UDP. > > > > To generalize that a bit, a solution I=E2=80=99ve seen written several di= fferent > ways is using reliable transport with FEC plus unicast repair as a fallba= ck. > > > > Certainly in Akamai=E2=80=99s LMS product we that, and I think the Cablel= abs > NORM-based approach[2] does also, and I=E2=80=99m pretty sure the DVB-mAB= R approach > does as well, in addition to providing for protocol flexibility (DVB > mentions support for FLUTEv1 and ATSC-ROUTE, which I gather is based on > FLUTEv2, but also I get the idea that they=E2=80=99d be delighted to supp= ort the > BBC=E2=80=99s QUIC-based protocol too, especially since it=E2=80=99s got = some of the same > authors). > > > > This plethora of UDP-based options (also including the existing MPEG-TS > and RTP uses, plus the several other proprietary protocols) is a big part > of why I wanted to handle unidirectional transport-level authentication i= n > a generic way at the UDP layer or lower. > > > > All these protocols seem to have some active use and some potential for > the future, and mostly I just want internet multicast to become actually > viable to use widely for transport to end users, regardless of which > application layer ends up being best in everybody=E2=80=99s deployments. > > > > HTH. > > > > Best regards, > > Jake > > > > [1] A few possibly-useful links to follow if you=E2=80=99re interested i= n > webtransport+webcodecs: > > https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/webtrans/about/ > > https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webcodecs-proposal/3662 > > https://github.com/w3c/media-and-entertainment/issues/25 ) > > > > [2] Cablelabs NORM spec: > > > https://community.cablelabs.com/wiki/plugins/servlet/cablelabs/alfresco/d= ownload?id=3D3edb1609-17ff-4844-87ed-124314a73e7c > > > > PS: If I read all the specs right, none of the FLUTE- or NORM- based > implementations do anything like what the IETF FLUTE or NORM docs specify > for feedback and rate control, but they did use the packet framing from > those docs. > > > > (This was top-posted in response to the message below. I have no further > comments added to the below text, but left the prior message included for > context.) > > > > > > *From: *Gyan Mishra > *Date: *Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 7:11 AM > *To: *"gjshep@gmail.com" > *Cc: *"Holland, Jake" , MBONED WG , > "mops@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [MBONED] DVB: New Multicast Video Spec > > > > Jake > > > > This is great news with MPEG-DASH and reliable multicast and adaptive bit > rate. > > > > I actually sent an email below excerpt to QUIC WG related to possibly > using QUIC variant to provide reliable multicast email below. So the iss= ue > is multicast is uni directional so there is no feedback ACK so you would > have to create a variant of QUIC the with data channel over QUIC and side > band control channel for the ACK feedback for reliable multicast. This i= s > however outside of the QUIC WG charter so if anything it would be a > individual submission but would not get WG adoption. > > > > ***email to QUIC WG*** > > > > QUIC WG > > > > Has anyone ever tried using QUIC with multicastRTP UDP streamed using QUI= C > transport. > > > > Multicast has always been problematic with use on the internet MBONE and > even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport for MPEG4 MPEG-TS > and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS multicast has struggled > with using UDP transport. > > > > Multicast has thus required stringent end to end QOS in profile > guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drops to avoid > dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and buffering. > > > > Since QUIC is a secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional > flows it would be a perfect fit for multicast. > > > > This would be a game changer for multicast as over the internet which you > don=E2=80=99t have any QOS guarantee. > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > Gyan > > > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:59 AM Greg Shepherd wrote: > > Thanks Jake! The ball is starting to roll.. > > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:18 PM Holland, Jake 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hi mops and mboned participants, > > I wanted to let you all know about a new spec that has recently come to m= y > attention from the DVB SDO, detailing a new standard approach to deliveri= ng > video over multicast, via reliable delivery of video segments that > interoperate with DASH players: > > > https://dvb.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/A176_Adaptive-Media-Streaming-= over-IP-Multicast_Mar-2020.pdf > > > Something to be aware of, and hopefully helpful to some of us. > > Best regards, > Jake > > > _______________________________________________ > MBONED mailing list > MBONED@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned > > > _______________________________________________ > MBONED mailing list > MBONED@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned > > > -- > > Gyan Mishra > > Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > > > --=20 Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --00000000000033d4e705a4ef9ef5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Jake for all the informational links and feedback.= =C2=A0=C2=A0

Kind regards

Gyan<= /div>

On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 5:07 PM Holland, Jake <jholland@akamai.com> wrote:

Hi Gyan,

=C2=A0

Thanks for sending the note about that.=C2=A0 I hadn= =E2=80=99t been watching the QUIC list, and I think there=E2=80=99s a few t= hings to mention in response that might be more in-scope for mops and mbone= d than for QUIC:

=C2=A0

1.

QUIC for RTP got some consideration a few years back= (without the multicast angle).=C2=A0 You might want to read an old thread = or 2 discussing the idea, like this one:

https://groups.google.com/foru= m/#!topic/discuss-webrtc/aRvnniKe-88

=C2=A0

AFAICT, the concept ended up reformulated as webtran= sport + webcodecs, which is an active set of coupled projects that looks li= ke it might go somewhere.[1]

=C2=A0

2.

Coming back to multicast (particularly the reliable = multicast point you mentioned), there=E2=80=99s some interesting work from = the BBC on reliable transport using a multicast QUIC variant.=C2=A0 You mig= ht be interested to take a look at these:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-par= due-quic-http-mcast-06

https://github.com/bbc/nghq

=C2=A0

To me it seems a fine option for application-level g= eneralized object transport, and I made some changes along the way to AMBI = (draft-ietf-mboned-ambi) to make sure that I think it can cover the transpo= rt-layer authenticity concerns that are briefly mentioned in the quic-http-mcast doc, as well as the other pro= tocols that get carried over multicast UDP.

=C2=A0

To generalize that a bit, a solution I=E2=80=99ve se= en written several different ways is using reliable transport with FEC plus= unicast repair as a fallback.

=C2=A0

Certainly in Akamai=E2=80=99s LMS product we that, a= nd I think the Cablelabs NORM-based approach[2] does also, and I=E2=80=99m = pretty sure the DVB-mABR approach does as well, in addition to providing fo= r protocol flexibility (DVB mentions support for FLUTEv1 and ATSC-ROUTE, which I gather is based on FLUTEv2, but also I get the ide= a that they=E2=80=99d be delighted to support the BBC=E2=80=99s QUIC-based = protocol too, especially since it=E2=80=99s got some of the same authors).<= u>

=C2=A0

This plethora of UDP-based options (also including t= he existing MPEG-TS and RTP uses, plus the several other proprietary protoc= ols) is a big part of why I wanted to handle unidirectional transport-level= authentication in a generic way at the UDP layer or lower.

=C2=A0

All these protocols seem to have some active use and= some potential for the future, and mostly I just want internet multicast t= o become actually viable to use widely for transport to end users, regardle= ss of which application layer ends up being best in everybody=E2=80=99s deployments.

=C2=A0

HTH.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Jake

=C2=A0

[1]=C2=A0 A few possibly-useful links to follow if y= ou=E2=80=99re interested in webtransport+webcodecs:

https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-p= roposal/3508

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/webtrans/about/

https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webcodecs-proposa= l/3662

https://github.com/w3c/media-and-enterta= inment/issues/25 )

=C2=A0

[2] Cablelabs NORM spec:

https://community.cablelabs.com/wiki/plugins/serv= let/cablelabs/alfresco/download?id=3D3edb1609-17ff-4844-87ed-124314a73e7c

=C2=A0

PS: If I read all the specs right, none of the FLUTE= - or NORM- based implementations do anything like what the IETF FLUTE or NO= RM docs specify for feedback and rate control, but they did use the packet = framing from those docs.

=C2=A0

(This was top-posted in response to the message belo= w. I have no further comments added to the below text, but left the prior m= essage included for context.)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: = Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com= >
Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 7:11 AM
To: "gjsh= ep@gmail.com" <gjshep@gmail.com>
Cc: "Holland, Jake" <jholland@akamai.com>, MBONED WG <mboned@ietf.org>, &quo= t;mops@ietf.org"= ; <mops@ietf.org&= gt;
Subject: Re: [MBONED] DVB: New Multicast Video Spec

=C2=A0

Jake

=C2=A0

This is great news with MPEG-DASH and reliable multi= cast and adaptive bit rate.

=C2=A0

I actually sent an email below excerpt to QUIC WG re= lated to possibly using QUIC variant to provide reliable multicast email be= low.=C2=A0 So the issue is multicast is uni directional so there is no feed= back ACK so you would have to create a variant of QUIC the with data channel over QUIC and side band control chan= nel for the ACK feedback for reliable multicast.=C2=A0 This is however outs= ide of the QUIC WG charter so if anything it would be a individual submissi= on but would not get WG adoption.

=C2=A0

***email to QUIC WG***

=C2=A0

QUIC=C2=A0WG

=C2=A0=

Has anyone ever = tried using=C2=A0QUIC=C2=A0with=C2=A0multicastRTP UDP streamed using=C2=A0QUIC=C2=A0transport.<= u>

=C2=A0=

Multicast=C2=A0has always been problematic with use on th= e internet MBONE and even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport= for MPEG4 MPEG-TS and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS=C2=A0multicast=C2=A0has stru= ggled with using UDP transport.

=C2=A0=

Multicast=C2=A0has thus required stringent end to end QOS= in profile guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drop= s to avoid dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and buffering.

=C2=A0=

Since=C2=A0QUIC=C2=A0is a= secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional flows it would be a = perfect fit for=C2=A0multicast. =C2=A0

=C2=A0=

This would be a = game changer for=C2=A0multicast=C2=A0as over the internet which you don=E2=80=99t ha= ve any QOS guarantee.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kind regards=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Gyan

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:59 AM Greg Shepherd <<= a href=3D"mailto:gjshep@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gjshep@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

Thanks Jake! The ball is starting to roll..

=C2=A0

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 12:18 PM Holland, Jake <j= holland=3D= 40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi mops and mboned participants,

I wanted to let you all know about a new spec that has recently come to my<= br> attention from the DVB SDO, detailing a new standard approach to delivering=
video over multicast, via reliable delivery of video segments that
interoperate with DASH players:

https://dvb.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/= 03/A176_Adaptive-Media-Streaming-over-IP-Multicast_Mar-2020.pdf

Something to be aware of, and hopefully helpful to some of us.

Best regards,
Jake


_______________________________________________
MBONED mailing list
MBONED@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mbon= ed

_______________________________________________
MBONED mailing list
MBONED@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mbon= ed

--

Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0<= u>

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishr= a@verizon.com

=C2=A0

=C2=A0



--

Gyan=C2=A0 Mi= shra

Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20904=

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



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charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the minutes feedback, Spencer! FYI for everyone =E2=80=94 Kyle updated and posted the minutes on the dat= a=20 tracker site, so we are now complete for the virtual interim meeting. Leslie. P.S.: Because you wanted to go look: =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-mops-01/session/mops On 22 Apr 2020, at 10:45, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > Hi, Kyle, > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 7:52 AM Kyle Rose wrote: > >> I've pasted the draft minutes from our Ides of April interim below.=20 >> Thanks >> again to Olufemi Komolafe for volunteering! Please review and provide >> clarifications and/or corrections to the chairs. Otherwise, we'll be >> posting the minutes to the data tracker in a week at which point it=20 >> will be >> part of your Permanent Record. >> > > Thanks for the excellent start on minutes. I have a couple of notes=20 > below. > > Best, > > Spencer > > >> Kyle >> >> >> >> >> >> Media OPerationS (MOPS) WG >> >> April 2020 Virtual Interim >> Wednesday, April 15, 2020 20h00UTC-21h30UTC >> >> Webex details below >> >> Agenda >> >> Intro >> >> Agenda Bashing [5min] chair(s) >> >> Review of concrete work items: >> >> [15min] Draft of edge network operational considerations for=20 >> streaming >> media >> Jake Holland >> draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons >> Github -=20 >> https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons >> Accepting comments via GitHub issues >> Presented update on draft >> Discussion on =E2=80=9CSoliciting Contributions - Proposed Template=E2= =80=9D >> + have in current draft or perhaps produce new draft (BCP?) >> Matt Stock: Like template and sees potential >> Jake Holland: Appreciates feedback. Potential to write diffrent=20 >> BCPs, >> targeted at diffrent audience >> Spencer Dawkins: Aim is for draft to not only call out potential bad >> things but rather try to be actionable, hence why mitigations are=20 >> solicited >> Glenn Deen: +1 on collecting mitigations and sees potential in this >> highlighting potential areas of interest/work. Mitigations are only a=20 >> first >> step, and where there are really egregious problems the mitigation=20 >> may be a >> temporary approach and the issue may trigger additional work relevant=20 >> to >> the IETF. >> Matt Stock: Mitigations may not be black/white but rather may involve >> tradeoffs which should be called out to inform decision-making >> Leslie Daigle: Maybe collect the issues as a starting point >> Spencer Dawkins: Thanks to both Glenn and Matt for these excellent >> suggestions >> > Updates from elsewhere >> >> Updates from other work >> [15min] Sanjay Mishra - anything from SVA Open Caching WG >> Described significant impact COVID-19 having on video traffic seeing=20 >> by >> carriers >> Discussed ongoing and potential work of interest in SVA and potential=20 >> new >> working groups >> Glenn Deen: Recent work in SVA working group on media use cases for >> multicast streaming that may be of interest >> Jake Holland: Work looks interesting. What does engagement with SVA=20 >> look >> like? SVA members commenting on IETF mailing list? Interested to=20 >> hear more >> about the multicast work >> Sanjay Mishra: Perhaps bring back updates/proble statements etc from=20 >> SVA >> to IETF, IETF can work on these items and perhaps SVA consumes the=20 >> output >> Spencer Dawkins: Thanks for discussion on COVID-19 impact on video >> traffic. >> > > This could be "Thanks for discussion on COVID-19 impact on video=20 > traffic, > with references. draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons now has a section on > "Unpredictable Usage Profiles", and the authors have been talking=20 > about > mentioning COVID-19 as well. > > >> Glenn Deen: Address potential issue regarding IPR raised by Jake=20 >> Holland. >> There should be no issues - SVA docs are published on the web for all=20 >> to >> read and IP issues shouldn't enter into MOPS working with SVA use=20 >> csses. If >> still concerned, please come talk to glenn.deen@nbcuni.com - I'm on=20 >> the >> SVA board. >> >> >> >> [5min] Glenn Deen -- anything further re SMPTE >> >> >> [15min] Maxim Sharabayko SRT =E2=80=94 see >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sh arabayko-mops-srt/ , posted=20 >> on >> MOPS mailing list >> Overview of potential benefits SRT >> Jake Holland: Questions about protocol and operational use. Suitable=20 >> for >> contribution/distribution or livestreaming to end-users? >> Max Sharabayko: SRT is well-suited for media >> Marc Cymontkowski: Use of UDP means not SRT is not direct >> What other protocols were considered and what was deficient about=20 >> them? >> Marc Cymontkowski: Original goal was to transmit live stream over=20 >> public >> internet. Came to problem with clean slate and started with UDP and=20 >> added >> enhancements to make it more suited for real-time traffic. >> Kyle Rose: With hindsight, starting off with RTP may have been a=20 >> better >> option at the start, a few years ago. >> Glenn Deen: Comcast use SRT significantly and so keen for this work=20 >> to >> succeed. What are the current priorities for RTP? >> Marc Cymontkowski: Redundancy, balancing data of multiple links, >> congestion control >> Glenn Denn: Congestion control of interest - as playing nicely with=20 >> the >> network is in everyone's best interest >> Leslie Daigle: Potential interest in this WG in this protocol. =20 >> Detailed >> protocol machinery discussions will be done in other WGs but MOPS=20 >> interested >> Spencer Dawkins: An Independent Stream draft on SRT as it exists=20 >> today >> will be of great value to MOPS, because we would have a good=20 >> reference for >> the protocol as we start to make recommendations on use of SRT for >> streaming operators. That was the recommendation for a first step=20 >> from >> Dispatch discussion on SRT as I understood it, although the current=20 >> IESG >> might change that recommendation. >> > > My last sentence would be clearer as "That was the recommendation for=20 > a > first step from Dispatch discussion on SRT as I understood it,=20 > although the > final direction would be up to the responsible area directors".. > >> >> Alex Gouaillard: Discussion in other WGs regarding SRT, especially >> concerns regarding security >> - When presented at IETF dispatch, concerned were expressed by long=20 >> time >> IETF contributors like Eric Rescorla, Colin Perkins, Martin Thompson >> discussion here: >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/ekMWlMXch132tvri2BwrnnU= Lzuw/ >> - The question was just about the status of those discussions as,=20 >> given >> the position of the people asking with respect to security, media >> transport, QUIC, SRTP, at IETF, those questions will come back at one=20 >> point. >> - One of the question raised on the Dispatch thread was also, why at=20 >> mops >> and not in ART, since it looks more in scope for the later. >> > > that's probably "for the latter". > > >> - Another question was regarding security definition (eric/martin) >> - another question, more generic, is why a new protocol when it looks=20 >> like >> webrtc / QUIC are a good match to the announced goal (nat traversal,=20 >> TLS >> 1.3, CC, BWE, ...) >> =3D> discussion on dispatch would have concluded by a request for a >> document, and thus is pending this document availability. >> >> >> >> Operational Issues Observed >> [15min] Jake Holland =E2=80=94 Experience making the world safe for=20 >> interdomain >> multicast >> Discussed some of the challenges/opportunities with interdomain=20 >> multicast >> Outlined goals for 2020 & eager to collaborate in trials/POCs so=20 >> please >> reach out if interested >> Leslie Daigle: Interesting overview >> >> >> AOB >> [10min] Liaison Statement from SC 29/WG 11 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 N=20 >> 18620) >> Spencer Dawkins: Spoke to Stephan Wegner, the IAB liaison manager for=20 >> SC >> 29/WG 11, on Monday; he had no further updates beyond what was in the >> original liaison statement they sent to IETF. >> >> Leslie Daigle: Git repo set up for WG >> Kyle Rose: Repo will be used when documents are adopted. Not=20 >> mandatory >> but convenient for collaboration. Will send URL on list shortly >> >> >> -- >> Mops mailing list >> Mops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops >> > --=20 > Mops mailing list > Mops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- Leslie Daigle Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises ldaigle@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- --=_MailMate_8C0F7854-D86C-4CF5-9FE5-22A9F27C65C8_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for the minutes feedback, Spencer!

FYI for everyone =E2=80=94 Kyle updated and posted the mi= nutes on the data tracker site, so we are now complete for the virtual in= terim meeting.

Leslie.
P.S.: Because you wanted to go look: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2020-mops-01/session/mops

On 22 Apr 2020, at 10:45, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<= /p>

Hi, Kyle,=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at = 7:52 AM Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org<= /a>> wrote:


=C2=A0
Kyle
=




Media OPeratio= nS (MOPS) WG

April 2020 Virtual Interim
Wednesday, April 15, 20= 20 20h00UTC-21h30UTC

Webex details below

Agenda

Intr= o

Agenda Bashing [5min] chair(s)

Review of concrete work it= ems:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
[15min] Draft of edge network operational cons= iderations for streaming media
Jake Holland
draft-ietf-mops-streami= ng-opcons
Github - https://github.com/ietf-wg-mo= ps/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons
Accepting comments via GitHub = issues
Presented update on draft
Discussion on =E2=80=9CSoliciting= Contributions - Proposed Template=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+ have= in current draft or perhaps produce new draft (BCP?)
Matt Stock: Like= template and sees potential
Jake Holland: Appreciates feedback.=C2=A0= Potential to write diffrent BCPs, targeted at diffrent audience
Spenc= er Dawkins: Aim is for draft to not only call out potential bad things bu= t rather try to be actionable, hence why mitigations are solicited
Gle= nn Deen: +1 on collecting mitigations and sees potential in this highligh= ting potential areas of interest/work. Mitigations are only a first step,= and where there are really egregious problems the mitigation may be a te= mporary approach and the issue may trigger additional work relevant to th= e IETF. =C2=A0
Matt Stock: Mitigations may not be black/white but rath= er may involve tradeoffs which should be called out to inform decision-ma= king
Leslie Daigle: Maybe collect the issues as a starting point
Sp= encer Dawkins: Thanks to both Glenn and Matt for these excellent suggesti= ons
Updates from el= sewhere

Updates from other work
[15min] Sanjay Mishra - anythin= g from SVA Open Caching WG
Described significant impact COVID-19 havin= g on video traffic seeing by carriers
Discussed ongoing and potential= work of interest in SVA and potential new working groups
Glenn Deen: = Recent work in SVA working group on media use cases for multicast streami= ng that may be of interest
Jake Holland: Work looks interesting.=C2=A0= What does engagement with SVA look like?=C2=A0 SVA members commenting on= IETF mailing list? Interested to hear more about the multicast work
S= anjay Mishra: Perhaps bring back updates/proble statements etc from SVA t= o IETF, IETF can work on these items and perhaps SVA consumes the output<= br>Spencer Dawkins: Thanks for discussion on COVID-19 impact on video tra= ffic.=C2=A0

This could be= "Thanks for discussion on COVID-19 impact on video traffic, with re= ferences. draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons now has a section on "Unp= redictable Usage Profiles", and the authors have been talking about = mentioning COVID-19 as well.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Glenn Deen: Address potential issue regarding IPR raised by Ja= ke Holland.=C2=A0 There should be no issues - SVA docs are published on t= he web for all to read and IP issues shouldn't enter into MOPS workin= g with SVA use csses. If still concerned, please come talk to glenn.deen@nbcuni.com= - I'm on the SVA board.



[5min] Glenn Deen -- anything= further re SMPTE


[15min] Maxim Sharabayko SRT =E2=80=94 seehttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sh arabayko-mops-srt/ , poste= d on MOPS mailing list
Overview of potential benefits SRT
Jake Holl= and: Questions about protocol and operational use.=C2=A0 Suitable for con= tribution/distribution or livestreaming to end-users?
Max Sharabayko: = SRT is well-suited for media
Marc Cymontkowski: Use of UDP means not S= RT is not direct
What other protocols were considered and what was def= icient about them?
Marc Cymontkowski: Original goal was to transmit li= ve stream over public internet. Came to problem with clean slate and star= ted with UDP and added enhancements to make it more suited for real-time = traffic. =C2=A0
Kyle Rose: With hindsight, starting off with RTP may h= ave been a better option at the start, a few years ago.
Glenn Deen: Co= mcast use SRT significantly and so keen for this work to succeed.=C2=A0 W= hat are the current priorities for RTP?
Marc Cymontkowski: Redundancy,= balancing data of multiple links, congestion control
Glenn Denn: Cong= estion control of interest - as playing nicely with the network is in eve= ryone's best interest
Leslie Daigle: Potential interest in this WG= in this protocol.=C2=A0 Detailed protocol machinery discussions will be = done in other WGs but MOPS interested
Spencer Dawkins: An Independent = Stream draft on SRT as it exists today will be of great value to MOPS, be= cause we would have a good reference for the protocol as we start to make= recommendations on use of SRT for streaming operators. That was the reco= mmendation for a first step from Dispatch discussion on SRT as I understo= od it, although the current IESG might change that recommendation.

My last sentence would be clear= er as "That was the recommendation for a first step from Dispatch di= scussion on SRT as I understood it, although the final direction would be= up to the responsible area directors"..

Alex Gouaillard: Discussion in other WGs regarding SRT, especi= ally concerns regarding security
- When presented at IETF dispatch, co= ncerned were expressed by long time IETF contributors like Eric Rescorla,= Colin Perkins, Martin Thompson
discussion here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/ekMWlMXch132tv= ri2BwrnnULzuw/
- The question was just about the status of those d= iscussions as, given the position of the people asking with respect to se= curity, media transport, QUIC, SRTP, at IETF, those questions will come b= ack at one point.
- One of the question raised on the Dispatch thread = was also, why at mops and not in ART, since it looks more in scope for th= e later.

that's proba= bly "for the latter".=C2=A0
=C2=A0
- Another question was regarding security definition (eric/= martin)
- another question, more generic, is why a new protocol when i= t looks like webrtc / QUIC are a good match to the announced goal (nat tr= aversal, TLS 1.3, CC, BWE, ...)
=3D> discussion on dispatch would h= ave concluded by a request for a document, and thus is pending this docum= ent availability.



Operational Issues Observed
[15min] J= ake Holland =E2=80=94 Experience making the world safe for interdomain mu= lticast
Discussed some of the challenges/opportunities with interdomai= n multicast
Outlined goals for 2020 & eager to collaborate in tria= ls/POCs so please reach out if interested
Leslie Daigle: Interesting o= verview


AOB
[10min] =C2=A0Liaison Statement from SC 29/WG 1= 1 to IETF MOPS WG (SC 29 N 18620)
Spencer Dawkins: Spoke to Stephan We= gner, the IAB liaison manager for SC 29/WG 11, on Monday; he had no furth= er updates beyond what was in the original liaison statement they sent to= IETF.

Leslie Daigle: Git repo set up for WG
Kyle Rose: Repo wi= ll be used when documents are adopted.=C2=A0 Not mandatory but convenient= for collaboration.=C2=A0 Will send URL on list shortly


=
--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--
Mops mailing list
Mops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mops

--

Leslie Daigle
Principal, ThinkingCat Enterprises

ldaigle@thinkingcat.com

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Events without label "editorial"

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ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

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