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From: "Tarek Saad (tsaad)" <tsaad@cisco.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org" <draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] working group adoption poll on draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels
Thread-Index: AQHTRP/85dbX584W+UCxGY2NWgHlMaLnBSgAgAq3T4CABtXlAIAGMjKAgAG6kQA=
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 22:44:53 +0000
Message-ID: <A367BFC0-E426-456A-98ED-E37DF9FF027B@cisco.com>
References: <1872ff72-845f-4b85-11a5-f00123223fb5@pi.nu> <2d0dd3b5-1fb9-1435-a1f7-0d04ff98ad49@labn.net> <CA+YzgTutss04yaM2XQ7kti1ja0cwwmKkhZXaCOnFgkvWkYaeNg@mail.gmail.com> <a95540be-9e15-a5dd-a4e6-e6316fc008c2@labn.net> <CA+YzgTvczagArspbWKcSZdj6fymZMSmkitffBpwfKOchHn3-Cg@mail.gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/FWHEzEb9DcZ8SCAUYGMzyeEzGX4>
Subject: Re: [mpls] working group adoption poll on draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
CC: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org" <draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] working group adoption poll on draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels
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Subject: Re: [mpls] working group adoption poll on draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels
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From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 13:04:37 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+YzgTuvt4hiA0D9J1T7rdga_mfYmt4b5icnzP4C+ahL4QkNuQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
Cc: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>,  "draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org" <draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] working group adoption poll on draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels
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Jie, Hi!

Thanks for the follow-up. Please see inline.

Regards,
-Pavan

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 4:02 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Pavan,
>
> Sorry for the delay in response. Please see inline:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram [mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 10:49 PM
> > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
> > Cc: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; mpls@ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
> > <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org;
> > mpls-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [mpls] working group adoption poll on,
> > draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels
> >
> > Jie, Hi!
> >
> > Thanks for the review and for the support. Please see inline for
> responses
> > (prefixed VPB).
> >
> > Regards,
> > -Pavan
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Loa,
> > >
> > > I've read this document and think it provides a useful function for
> reducing the
> > data plane state of RSVP-TE LSPs. Thus I support the adoption.
> > >
> > > I concur with Lou's concern about the TE bandwidth/tspec/rspec
> processing,
> > the impact of shared label on this needs to be specified.
> >
> > [VPB] Please see if my response to Lou adequately addresses your concern.
>
> The proposed text about the mapping between shared label and the bandwidth
> reservations would be a good start, and maybe the consequence of the
> reservation aggregation can also be described.
>

[Pavan] We will add the proposed text.


> > >
> > > I also have some concerns about the automatic delegation process
> described
> > in section 5.3, maybe I need to reread it, but it seems that in some
> cases the
> > mechanism may not result in an appropriate set of delegation nodes. And
> what
> > would happen if the ETLD value in the received PATH message is bigger
> than the
> > maximum number of labels this node can handle? It seems this case was not
> > covered in section 5.3.
> >
> > [VPB] Section 5.3.1 says --
> > "The ETLD MUST be decremented at each non-delegation transit hop by
> either 1
> > or some appropriate number based on the limitations at that hop."
> >
> > The "limitations at that hop" reference is not necessarily limited to the
> > "outbound limitation", it could include the "read limitation" as well.
> Consider a
> > transit hop that can read only 6 labels. If this hop receives an ETLD of
> 8 from the
> > previous-hop, then it could adjust the outgoing ETLD to 5 (thus ensuring
> that it
> > can never receive more label-stack-entries than it can read).
> Wi
> Thanks for the explanation. Yes both the send limitation and read
> limitation need to be taken into consideration. So in many cases decrement
> by some number other than 1 would be needed.
>
> [Pavan] Yes, agree. This is covered by the following statement in the
draft:

The ETLD MUST be decremented at each non-delegation transit hop by
either 1 or some appropriate number based on the limitations at that
hop.

Maybe it is worth mentioning that for transit nodes, the ETLD it sent is
> determined by both the received ETLD from previous hop and its read and
> send limitation in label processing?
>
[Pavan] The current text in the draft leaves sufficient room for this
behavior (and I'm aware of an implementation that does this already) and
also for the behavior where only the "imposition limitation" is taken into
account. That said, we can add some text to make this point clear.


>
> Another point is the ETLD is defined in HOP_ATTRIBUTES subobject, which
> means the transit node will add a new ETLD Attributes TLV for itself,
> rather than modifying the ETLD attribute it received from the previous hop.
> Some update to the description about the ETLD manipulation may be needed to
> reflect this.
>
[Pavan] Yes, as mentioned in the draft, ETLD is just another per-hop
attribute -- RFC7570 procedures come into play. A transit-hop that does not
support this functionality will not record the ETLD. We could possibly add
an Appendix detailing a "sample algorithm" in a later revision (if needed).


> I think all of the above can be done after the adoption.
>
[Pavan] Thanks!


> Best regards,
> Jie
>
> >
> > >
> > > It would be great if the above concerns could be considered either
> before or
> > after the adoption.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Jie
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 11:20 PM
> > > To: mpls@ietf.org
> > > Cc: <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
> > > draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org; mpls-chairs@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [mpls] working group adoption poll on
> > > draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels
> > >
> > > Working Group,
> > >
> > > This is to start a two week poll on adopting
> > > draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels-02 as a MPLS working group
> > document.
> > >
> > > Please send your comments (support/not support) to the mpls working
> group
> > mailing list (mpls@ietf.org). Please give a technical motivation for
> your
> > support/not support, especially if you think that the document should
> not be
> > adopted as a working group document.
> > >
> > > There are three IPR disclosures (though one disclosure seems to be an
> > > update) against this document.
> > >
> > > All the authors have stated on the MPLS wg mailing list that they are
> > > unaware of any other IPRs that those that has been disclosed
> > >
> > > The working group adoption poll ends October 29, 2017.
> > >
> > > /Loa
> > > mpls wg co-chair
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> > > Senior MPLS Expert
> > > Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > mpls mailing list
> > > mpls@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > mpls mailing list
> > > mpls@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>

--089e0820c4389ca1aa055d1719d4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Jie, Hi!<br><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra">Thanks for the follow-up. Please see inline.</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Regards,</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra">-Pavan</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 3, 2017=
 at 4:02 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.do=
ng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Pavan,<br>
<br>
Sorry for the delay in response. Please see inline:<br>
<span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.=
com">vishnupavan@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 10:49 PM<br>
&gt; To: Dongjie (Jimmy) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com">jie.don=
g@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: Loa Andersson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>&gt;; =
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
tg-ads@ietf.org">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.org">draft-sitar=
aman-mpls-rsvp-<wbr>shared-labels@ietf.org</a>;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a><br>
</span><span class=3D"gmail-">&gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] working group adopti=
on poll on,<br>
&gt; draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-<wbr>shared-labels<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jie, Hi!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for the review and for the support. Please see inline for respo=
nses<br>
&gt; (prefixed VPB).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; -Pavan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Dongjie (Jimmy) &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:jie.dong@huawei.com">jie.dong@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Loa,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;ve read this document and think it provides a useful functi=
on for reducing the<br>
&gt; data plane state of RSVP-TE LSPs. Thus I support the adoption.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I concur with Lou&#39;s concern about the TE bandwidth/tspec/rspe=
c processing,<br>
&gt; the impact of shared label on this needs to be specified.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [VPB] Please see if my response to Lou adequately addresses your conce=
rn.<br>
<br>
</span>The proposed text about the mapping between shared label and the ban=
dwidth reservations would be a good start, and maybe the consequence of the=
 reservation aggregation can also be described.<br></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>[Pavan] We will add the proposed text.<br></div><div><br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I also have some concerns about the automatic delegation process =
described<br>
&gt; in section 5.3, maybe I need to reread it, but it seems that in some c=
ases the<br>
&gt; mechanism may not result in an appropriate set of delegation nodes. An=
d what<br>
&gt; would happen if the ETLD value in the received PATH message is bigger =
than the<br>
&gt; maximum number of labels this node can handle? It seems this case was =
not<br>
&gt; covered in section 5.3.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [VPB] Section 5.3.1 says --<br>
&gt; &quot;The ETLD MUST be decremented at each non-delegation transit hop =
by either 1<br>
&gt; or some appropriate number based on the limitations at that hop.&quot;=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The &quot;limitations at that hop&quot; reference is not necessarily l=
imited to the<br>
&gt; &quot;outbound limitation&quot;, it could include the &quot;read limit=
ation&quot; as well. Consider a<br>
&gt; transit hop that can read only 6 labels. If this hop receives an ETLD =
of 8 from the<br>
&gt; previous-hop, then it could adjust the outgoing ETLD to 5 (thus ensuri=
ng that it<br>
&gt; can never receive more label-stack-entries than it can read).<br>
Wi<br>
</span>Thanks for the explanation. Yes both the send limitation and read li=
mitation need to be taken into consideration. So in many cases decrement by=
 some number other than 1 would be needed.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>[Pavan] Yes, agree. This is covered by the following =
statement in the draft:<br><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage">The ETLD MUST be de=
cremented at each non-delegation transit hop by either 1 or some appropriat=
e number based on the limitations at that hop.</pre> </div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Maybe it is worth mentioning that for transit nodes, the ETLD it sent is de=
termined by both the received ETLD from previous hop and its read and send =
limitation in label processing?<br></blockquote><div>[Pavan] The current te=
xt in the draft leaves sufficient room for this behavior (and I&#39;m aware=
 of an implementation that does this already) and also for the behavior whe=
re only the &quot;imposition limitation&quot; is taken into account. That s=
aid, we can add some text to make this point clear.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Another point is the ETLD is defined in HOP_ATTRIBUTES subobject, which mea=
ns the transit node will add a new ETLD Attributes TLV for itself, rather t=
han modifying the ETLD attribute it received from the previous hop. Some up=
date to the description about the ETLD manipulation may be needed to reflec=
t this.<br></blockquote><div>[Pavan] Yes, as mentioned in the draft, ETLD i=
s just another per-hop attribute -- RFC7570 procedures come into play. A tr=
ansit-hop that does not support this functionality will not record the ETLD=
. We could possibly add an Appendix detailing a &quot;sample algorithm&quot=
; in a later revision (if needed).<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I think all of the above can be done after the adoption.<br></blockquote><d=
iv>[Pavan] Thanks! <br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><div class=3D"gmail-h5"><br>
Best regards,<br>
Jie<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; It would be great if the above concerns could be considered eithe=
r before or<br>
&gt; after the adoption.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; Jie<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mpls-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Loa Andersson<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 11:20 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-shared-labels@ietf.or=
g">draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-<wbr>shared-labels@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: [mpls] working group adoption poll on<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-<wbr>shared-labels<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Working Group,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This is to start a two week poll on adopting<br>
&gt; &gt; draft-sitaraman-mpls-rsvp-<wbr>shared-labels-02 as a MPLS working=
 group<br>
&gt; document.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Please send your comments (support/not support) to the mpls worki=
ng group<br>
&gt; mailing list (<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>). Ple=
ase give a technical motivation for your<br>
&gt; support/not support, especially if you think that the document should =
not be<br>
&gt; adopted as a working group document.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; There are three IPR disclosures (though one disclosure seems to b=
e an<br>
&gt; &gt; update) against this document.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; All the authors have stated on the MPLS wg mailing list that they=
 are<br>
&gt; &gt; unaware of any other IPRs that those that has been disclosed<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The working group adoption poll ends October 29, 2017.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; /Loa<br>
&gt; &gt; mpls wg co-chair<br>
&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Loa Andersson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.=
nu</a><br>
&gt; &gt; Senior MPLS Expert<br>
&gt; &gt; Huawei Technologies (consultant)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0phone: <a hre=
f=3D"tel:%2B46%20739%2081%2021%2064" value=3D"+46739812164">+46 739 81 21 6=
4</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; &gt; mpls mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls<=
/a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; &gt; mpls mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls<=
/a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--089e0820c4389ca1aa055d1719d4--


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From: <N.Leymann@telekom.de>
To: <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 09:01:19 +0000
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Subject: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Working Group,

We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group la=
st call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.

This is to start the IPR Poll.

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R=
FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual docu=
ment:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to thi=
s email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. *Th=
e response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document will=
 not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each=
 author and contributor.

If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or con=
tributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR t=
hat has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

Best regards

Nic






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<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div>Working Group,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working gro=
up last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>This is to start the IPR Poll.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?<=
/div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (=
see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual=
 document:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/ipr/2580/</a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond t=
o this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR=
. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document=
 will not advance to the next stage
until a response has been received from each author and contributor.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author o=
r contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any =
IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Best regards</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Nic</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

--_000_3a590768494f45208f2c568b80913b91HE105662emea1cdstintern_--


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From: Chandrasekar Ramachandran <csekar@juniper.net>
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Yes, I'm aware of one IPR that applies to this draft. The IPR has been alre=
ady disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2=
580).

From: N.Leymann@telekom.de [mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de]
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:31 PM
To: mpls-chairs@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.o=
rg
Subject: IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr

Working Group,

We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group la=
st call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.

This is to start the IPR Poll.

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R=
FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual docu=
ment:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2=
/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_ipr_2580_&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DiEQmXlRGWdNbtvVr6ghcatwLYhZUbMF-u63wi=
_-VTtA&m=3D2AOuiLqITt9i39ezaBxJG9BM2vdU6Om4smZ_OrAlCeo&s=3DdLbM2_92cj2Wd2Zk=
QGgJQDudgi994dP7qWKIp4dkJxI&e=3D>

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to thi=
s email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. *Th=
e response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document will=
 not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each=
 author and contributor.

If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or con=
tributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR t=
hat has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

Best regards

Nic






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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Yes, I'm aware of one IPR that applie=
s to this draft. The IPR has been already disclosed in compliance with IETF=
 IPR rules (datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> N.Leymann@telekom.de [mailto:N=
.Leymann@telekom.de]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr=
@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Working Group,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-=
frr for working group last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">This is to start the IPR Poll.<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf=
-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance wi=
th IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed=
 for the individual document:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_ipr_2580_&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh=
63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DiEQmXlRGWdNbtvVr6ghcatwLYhZUb=
MF-u63wi_-VTtA&amp;m=3D2AOuiLqITt9i39ezaBxJG9BM2vdU6Om4smZ_OrAlCeo&amp;s=3D=
dLbM2_92cj2Wd2ZkQGgJQDudgi994dP7qWKIp4dkJxI&amp;e=3D">https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/ipr/2580/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">If you are listed as a document author or contribut=
or please respond to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware =
of any relevant IPR. *The response needs to be
 sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document will not advance to the ne=
xt stage until a response has been received from each author and contributo=
r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not li=
sted as an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if yo=
u are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed
 in conformance with IETF rules.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Nic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BN3PR0501MB13771799024AE8357FF96C8DD9520BN3PR0501MB1377_--


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From: "Pacella, Dante J" <dante.j.pacella@verizon.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:22:20 -0400
Message-ID: <CAMp=MxbfaxQppoMBkiiR_7LAMbTv5a5a4d7sQ3mgtySALLMABw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Chandrasekar Ramachandran <csekar@juniper.net>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [E] RE: IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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--f403045d2c9e0489ca055d28f3e1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am not aware of any additional IPR that applies to this draft.

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Chandrasekar Ramachandran <
csekar@juniper.net> wrote:

> Yes, I'm aware of one IPR that applies to this draft. The IPR has been
> already disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (
> datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580).
>
>
>
> *From:* N.Leymann@telekom.de [mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de]
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:31 PM
> *To:* mpls-chairs@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@
> ietf.org
> *Subject:* IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
>
>
>
> Working Group,
>
>
>
> We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group
> last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.
>
>
>
> This is to start the IPR Poll.
>
>
>
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?
>
>
>
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see
> RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
>
>
> Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual
> document:
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_ipr_2580_&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=
=3DiEQmXlRGWdNbtvVr6ghcatwLYhZUbMF-u63wi_-VTtA&m=3D2AOuiLqITt9i39ezaBxJG9BM=
2vdU6Om4smZ_OrAlCeo&s=3DdLbM2_92cj2Wd2ZkQGgJQDudgi994dP7qWKIp4dkJxI&e=3D>
>
>
>
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR=
.
> *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document
> will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received fro=
m
> each author and contributor.
>
>
>
> If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
> IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
> Nic
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--f403045d2c9e0489ca055d28f3e1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I am not aware of any add=
itional IPR that applies to this draft.</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Chan=
drasekar Ramachandran <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:csekar@junipe=
r.net" target=3D"_blank">csekar@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_7930160093227825166WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yes, I&#39;m aware of one IPR that ap=
plies to this draft. The IPR has been already disclosed in compliance with =
IETF IPR rules (<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580" target=3D"=
_blank">datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580</a><wbr>).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> <a href=3D"mailto:N.Leymann@te=
lekom.de" target=3D"_blank">N.Leymann@telekom.de</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:N.Leymann@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">N.Leymann@telekom.de</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 04, 2017 2:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-c=
hairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@<wbr>ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Working Group,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-=
frr for working group last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">This is to start the IPR Poll.<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf=
-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance wi=
th IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed=
 for the individual document:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url=
?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_ipr_2580_&amp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DHAkYuh=
63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DiEQmXlRGWdNbtvVr6ghcatwLYhZUb=
MF-u63wi_-VTtA&amp;m=3D2AOuiLqITt9i39ezaBxJG9BM2vdU6Om4smZ_OrAlCeo&amp;s=3D=
dLbM2_92cj2Wd2ZkQGgJQDudgi994dP7qWKIp4dkJxI&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>ipr/2580/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">If you are listed as a document author or contribut=
or please respond to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware =
of any relevant IPR. *The response needs to be
 sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document will not advance to the ne=
xt stage until a response has been received from each author and contributo=
r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not li=
sted as an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if yo=
u are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed
 in conformance with IETF rules.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Best regards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Nic<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045d2c9e0489ca055d28f3e1--


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From: Harish Sitaraman <hsitaraman@juniper.net>
To: "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, "tsaad@cisco.com" <tsaad@cisco.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "loa@pi.nu" <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/6DIbrf_Bj4bfoBFTlcLAGehaVH0>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
To: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, "tsaad@cisco.com" <tsaad@cisco.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "loa@pi.nu" <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/HCsLIEOy_AoVfPUoPkZVBgwRTok>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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From nobody Sun Nov  5 20:42:18 2017
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To: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, kireeti.kompella@gmail.com, swallow.ietf@gmail.com, cpignata@cisco.com, naikumar@cisco.com, aldrin.ietf@gmail.com, mach.chen@huawei.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, n.leymann@telekom.de
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8029 (5102)
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Folks,

"Detecting Multiprotocol Label Switched (MPLS) Data-Plane Failures" is
RFC 8129 (not 8029), I think this should be pointing to 8129.

/Loa

On 2017-08-30 18:16, RFC Errata System wrote:
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8029,
> "Detecting Multiprotocol Label Switched (MPLS) Data-Plane Failures".
> 
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5102
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Editorial
> Reported by: Alexander Okonnikov <alexander.okonnikov@gmail.com>
> 
> Section: 3.2.5
> 
> Original Text
> -------------
>     VPN-IPv4 Network Layer Routing Information (NLRI) is defined in
>     [RFC4365].
> 
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>     VPN-IPv4 Network Layer Routing Information (NLRI) is defined in
>     [RFC4364].
> 
> Notes
> -----
> Incorrect reference.
> 
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> RFC8029 (draft-ietf-mpls-rfc4379bis-09)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : Detecting Multiprotocol Label Switched (MPLS) Data-Plane Failures
> Publication Date    : March 2017
> Author(s)           : K. Kompella, G. Swallow, C. Pignataro, Ed., N. Kumar, S. Aldrin, M. Chen
> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> Source              : Multiprotocol Label Switching
> Area                : Routing
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG
> 

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


From nobody Sun Nov  5 21:00:18 2017
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
To: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, kireeti.kompella@gmail.com, swallow.ietf@gmail.com, cpignata@cisco.com, naikumar@cisco.com, aldrin.ietf@gmail.com, mach.chen@huawei.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, n.leymann@telekom.de
Cc: mpls@ietf.org
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Subject: [mpls] Correction --- Re: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8029 (5102)
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Folks,

I'm crossed-eyed, please for get this message.

/Loa

On 2017-11-06 12:42, Loa Andersson wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> "Detecting Multiprotocol Label Switched (MPLS) Data-Plane Failures" is
> RFC 8129 (not 8029), I think this should be pointing to 8129.
> 
> /Loa
> 
> On 2017-08-30 18:16, RFC Errata System wrote:
>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8029,
>> "Detecting Multiprotocol Label Switched (MPLS) Data-Plane Failures".
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> You may review the report below and at:
>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5102
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> Type: Editorial
>> Reported by: Alexander Okonnikov <alexander.okonnikov@gmail.com>
>>
>> Section: 3.2.5
>>
>> Original Text
>> -------------
>>     VPN-IPv4 Network Layer Routing Information (NLRI) is defined in
>>     [RFC4365].
>>
>> Corrected Text
>> --------------
>>     VPN-IPv4 Network Layer Routing Information (NLRI) is defined in
>>     [RFC4364].
>>
>> Notes
>> -----
>> Incorrect reference.
>>
>> Instructions:
>> -------------
>> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> RFC8029 (draft-ietf-mpls-rfc4379bis-09)
>> --------------------------------------
>> Title               : Detecting Multiprotocol Label Switched (MPLS) 
>> Data-Plane Failures
>> Publication Date    : March 2017
>> Author(s)           : K. Kompella, G. Swallow, C. Pignataro, Ed., N. 
>> Kumar, S. Aldrin, M. Chen
>> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>> Source              : Multiprotocol Label Switching
>> Area                : Routing
>> Stream              : IETF
>> Verifying Party     : IESG
>>
> 

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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Subject: Re: [mpls] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06
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Subject: Re: [mpls]  =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-?= =?utf-8?q?ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, "tsaad@cisco.com" <tsaad@cisco.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "loa@pi.nu" <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 16:37:45 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/pPWoGp58k3YoHLzKiweVcbzXi7g>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:56:28 -0800
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To: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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Thanks

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net> wrote:

> Eric,
>
> Thanks for the comments.  See inline below with [CB].  Changes addressing
> these comments can be found here:
>
> https://github.com/cbowers/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/commit/
> b930b3455453e6d50814955154fd1206f06b14c3
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 1:07 PM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org; tsaad@cisco.com;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; loa@pi.nu; mpls@ietf.org
> Subject: Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with
> COMMENT)
>
> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Line 106
>    familiar with the architecture in [RFC7812] to understand how and why
>    the LDP extensions for behavior are needed.
>
> It would actually be helpful to explain this here.
> =====
> [CB]   I changed the first paragraph of the introduction to read.
>
>    This document describes the LDP signaling extensions and associated
>    behavior necessary to support the architecture that defines how IP/
>    LDP Fast-Reroute can use MRTs [RFC7812].  The current document
>    provides a brief description of the MRT-FRR architecture, focusing on
>    the aspects most directly related to LDP signaling.  The complete
>    description and specification of the MRT-FRR architecture can be
>    found in [RFC7812].
>
> A basic description of the architecture already exists in the
> introduction.  This new text makes that clearer.
>
> =======
> Line 430
>    However, should this situation occur, the expected behavior of an LSR
>    receiving these conflicting advertisements is defined as foll If an
>    LSR receives a label mapping advertisement for a rainbow FEC from an
>
> Nit: as follows.
>
> [CB] fixed in a previous commit.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Chris Bowers <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cbowers@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">cbowers@junipe=
r.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Eric,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments.=C2=A0 See inline below with [CB].=C2=A0 Changes ad=
dressing these comments can be found here:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/cbowers/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/commit/b930b3=
455453e6d50814955154fd1206f06b14c3" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://github.com/cbowers/<wbr>draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/<wbr>commit/<wbr>b930=
b3455453e6d50814955154fd12<wbr>06f06b14c3</a><br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Chris<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a=
>]<br>
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 1:07 PM<br>
To: The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org">draft-ietf-mpls-ldp=
-mrt@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:tsaad@cisco.com">tsaad@cisco.com<=
/a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
Subject: Eric Rescorla&#39;s No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (w=
ith COMMENT)<br>
<br>
Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email=
 addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introduc=
tory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/<=
wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.<wbr>html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/dra=
ft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
COMMENT:<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br>
Line 106<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0familiar with the architecture in [RFC7812] to understand how =
and why<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the LDP extensions for behavior are needed.<br>
<br>
It would actually be helpful to explain this here.<br>
</span>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
[CB]=C2=A0 =C2=A0I changed the first paragraph of the introduction to read.=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes the LDP signaling extensions and assoc=
iated<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior necessary to support the architecture that defines ho=
w IP/<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LDP Fast-Reroute can use MRTs [RFC7812].=C2=A0 The current doc=
ument<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0provides a brief description of the MRT-FRR architecture, focu=
sing on<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the aspects most directly related to LDP signaling.=C2=A0 The =
complete<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0description and specification of the MRT-FRR architecture can =
be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0found in [RFC7812].<br>
<br>
A basic description of the architecture already exists in the introduction.=
=C2=A0 This new text makes that clearer.<br>
<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
<span class=3D"">Line 430<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0However, should this situation occur, the expected behavior of=
 an LSR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0receiving these conflicting advertisements is defined as foll =
If an<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LSR receives a label mapping advertisement for a rainbow FEC f=
rom an<br>
<br>
Nit: as follows.<br>
<br>
</span>[CB] fixed in a previous commit.<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e0828e4f8ecdf9e055d542e2a--


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From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, "tsaad@cisco.com" <tsaad@cisco.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "loa@pi.nu" <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, "tsaad@cisco.com" <tsaad@cisco.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "loa@pi.nu" <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/YwbpR4D8uX3FYYNTiW2ogbSjHzA>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, "tsaad@cisco.com" <tsaad@cisco.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "loa@pi.nu" <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Alia Atlas' Recuse on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHTK/uPHLjnzPU2HEOwJuQ+lyw/RaMIJkDQ
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:46:55 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/uq3hSlJrE3YduaZPZHqhKqCERbY>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Alia Atlas' Recuse on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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From nobody Mon Nov  6 12:51:17 2017
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From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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On 11/6/17 14:37, Chris Bowers wrote:
> Adam,
>
> Thanks for the feedback.  See response below with [CB].
>
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Roach [mailto:adam@nostrum.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 4:58 PM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org; tsaad@cisco.com; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; loa@pi.nu; mpls@ietf.org
> Subject: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Section 4.1 defines some reserved bits in the new MRT capability TLV format.
> Typically, we specify that reserved bits are set to 0 on send and ignored on receive, to allow for future definition of a purpose for them.
>
> [CB] MRT capability TLV in this document is an instance of the "Capability Parameter" TLV as defined in RFC 5561.  So the S-bit and the remaining reserved flags are defined in RFC 5561.  This document repeats information from RFC 5561 about the TLV format.  RFC 5561 doesn't explicitly state that these reserved bits are set to 0 on send and ignored on receive.  However, I believe that is the intention of RFC 5561.  I think it might be confusing for the current document to be more precise than RFC5561 is about this point, since 5561 is the document actually defining the "Capability Parameter" TLV.


Thanks. That seems like a reasonable rationale for not adding language 
to this document.

/a


From nobody Mon Nov  6 17:14:44 2017
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
CC: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, Kireeti Kompella <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>, "swallow.ietf@gmail.com" <swallow.ietf@gmail.com>, "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, "aldrin.ietf@gmail.com" <aldrin.ietf@gmail.com>, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, "DEBORAH A BRUNGARD" <db3546@att.com>, Alvaro Retana <aretana@cisco.com>, "n.leymann@telekom.de" <n.leymann@telekom.de>, "alexander.okonnikov@gmail.com" <alexander.okonnikov@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8029 (5102)
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 01:14:38 +0000
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From nobody Tue Nov  7 05:00:17 2017
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From: Balaji Rajagopalan <balajir@juniper.net>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Kireeti Kompella <kireeti@juniper.net>, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, "ginsberg@cisco.com" <ginsberg@cisco.com>
CC: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com>,  "rtg-bfd@ietf.org" <rtg-bfd@ietf.org>, "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)
Thread-Index: AQHTEmO6It6KBy1xuUWF7JOUmCVKk6J/bMuAgAAJToCAB2B3AIAAOi4AgADYioCACJzagIAAwhAAgBV+5ICABOwLgIBeFPKA
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:00:04 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/ctg7dKGPQ5y6ZIpvaSBH8_tX-Dg>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5884 (5085)
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From: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>
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To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>
Cc: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, "tsaad@cisco.com" <tsaad@cisco.com>,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "loa@pi.nu" <loa@pi.nu>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/lEHdvqMTNWAAsM2n8xFjyPzS7EM>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
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--001a114641c271d9ae055d6cb7d0
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Chris:

Hi!

It looks good to me.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

From: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net> <cbowers@juniper.net>
Reply: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net> <cbowers@juniper.net>
Date: November 6, 2017 at 3:10:52 PM
To: Alvaro Retana <aretana@cisco.com> <aretana@cisco.com>, The IESG
<iesg@ietf.org> <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: tsaad@cisco.com <tsaad@cisco.com> <tsaad@cisco.com>, mpls@ietf.org
<mpls@ietf.org> <mpls@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org
<draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org> <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>,
mpls-chairs@ietf.org <mpls-chairs@ietf.org> <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>,
loa@pi.nu <loa@pi.nu> <loa@pi.nu>
Subject:  RE: Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06:
(with COMMENT)

Alvaro,
>
> Thanks for the comment. See responses inline with [CB]. Comments are
> addressed in this diff:
>
>
> https://github.com/cbowers/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/commit/38c71cad758ecec6f41caaccdac38abf20e6ef3b
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:aretana@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 1:49 PM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org; tsaad@cisco.com;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; loa@pi.nu; mpls@ietf.org
> Subject: Alvaro Retana's No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with
> COMMENT)
>
> Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (1) I think that Section 4.4. (Interaction of MRT-related LDP
> advertisements with the MRT topology and computations) would benefit from a
> reference to
> rfc5443 (LDP IGP Synchronization).
> =====
> [CB] Good point. I added the following text to section 4.4.
>
> [RFC5443] "LDP IGP Synchronization" addresses the issue of the LDP
> topology not matching the IGP topology by the advertising the maximum
> IGP cost on links where LDP is not fully operational. This makes the
> IGP topology match the LDP topology. As described in Section 7.3.1
> of [RFC7812], MRT is designed to be compatible with the LDP IGP
> synchronization mechanism. When the IGP advertises the maximum cost
> on a link where LDP is not fully operational, the link is excluded
> from MRT Island formation, which prevents the MRT algorithm from
> creating any paths using that link.
>
> =====
> (2) From Section 5: "The associated LSPs must be created before a failure
> occurs..." Should that be a Normative MUST?
>
> I rewrote the sentence as follows to avoid ambiguity.
>
> In order to provide protection paths which are
> immediately usable by the point of local repair in the event of a
> failure, the associated LSPs need to be created before a failure
> occurs.
>

--001a114641c271d9ae055d6cb7d0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body>Chris:<div><br></div><div>Hi!</div><div><br></div>=
<div>It looks good to me.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></=
div><div>Alvaro.</div><div> <div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"color:black=
"><br>From:=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:black">Chris Bowers</span> <a href=3D=
"mailto:cbowers@juniper.net">&lt;cbowers@juniper.net&gt;</a><br>Reply:=C2=
=A0<span style=3D"color:black">Chris Bowers</span> <a href=3D"mailto:cbower=
s@juniper.net">&lt;cbowers@juniper.net&gt;</a><br>Date:=C2=A0<span style=3D=
"color:black">November 6, 2017 at 3:10:52 PM</span><br>To:=C2=A0<span style=
=3D"color:black">Alvaro Retana</span> <a href=3D"mailto:aretana@cisco.com">=
&lt;aretana@cisco.com&gt;</a>, <span style=3D"color:black">The IESG</span> =
<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">&lt;iesg@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>CC:=C2=A0<spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:tsaad@cisco.com">tsaad@cisco.com<=
/a></span> <a href=3D"mailto:tsaad@cisco.com">&lt;tsaad@cisco.com&gt;</a>, =
<span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a></span> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">&lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;</a>, <spa=
n style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org"=
>draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org</a></span> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-m=
pls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org">&lt;draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org&gt;</a>, <span s=
tyle=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ie=
tf.org</a></span> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">&lt;mpls-chairs@i=
etf.org&gt;</a>, <span style=3D"color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">l=
oa@pi.nu</a></span> <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">&lt;loa@pi.nu&gt;</a><br>S=
ubject:=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:black"> RE: Alvaro Retana&#39;s No Object=
ion on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT) <br></span></div><br> <bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail_quote"><span><div><div></div><div>Alv=
aro,
<br>
<br>Thanks for the comment.  See responses inline with [CB].  Comments are =
addressed in this diff:
<br>
<br><a href=3D"https://github.com/cbowers/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/commit/38=
c71cad758ecec6f41caaccdac38abf20e6ef3b">https://github.com/cbowers/draft-ie=
tf-mpls-ldp-mrt/commit/38c71cad758ecec6f41caaccdac38abf20e6ef3b</a>
<br>
<br>Thanks,
<br>Chris
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Alvaro Retana [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:aretana@cisco.com">aretan=
a@cisco.com</a>] =20
<br>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 1:49 PM
<br>To: The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<br>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org">draft-ietf-mpls=
-ldp-mrt@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:tsaad@cisco.com">tsaad@cisco.com</=
a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu">loa@pi.nu</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpl=
s@ietf.org</a>
<br>Subject: Alvaro Retana&#39;s No Objection on draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06=
: (with COMMENT)
<br>
<br>Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for
<br>draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection
<br>
<br>When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all e=
mail addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this intr=
oductory paragraph, however.)
<br>
<br>
<br>Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-=
criteria.html">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a=
>
<br>for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
<br>
<br>
<br>The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
<br><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>COMMENT:
<br>----------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
<br>(1) I think that Section 4.4. (Interaction of MRT-related LDP advertise=
ments with the MRT topology and computations) would benefit from a referenc=
e to
<br>rfc5443 (LDP IGP Synchronization).
<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
<br>[CB]  Good point.  I added the following text to section 4.4.
<br>
<br>   [RFC5443] &quot;LDP IGP Synchronization&quot; addresses the issue of=
 the LDP
<br>   topology not matching the IGP topology by the advertising the maximu=
m
<br>   IGP cost on links where LDP is not fully operational.  This makes th=
e
<br>   IGP topology match the LDP topology.  As described in Section 7.3.1
<br>   of [RFC7812], MRT is designed to be compatible with the LDP IGP
<br>   synchronization mechanism.  When the IGP advertises the maximum cost
<br>   on a link where LDP is not fully operational, the link is excluded
<br>   from MRT Island formation, which prevents the MRT algorithm from
<br>   creating any paths using that link.
<br>
<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
<br>(2) From Section 5: &quot;The associated LSPs must be created before a =
failure occurs...&quot;  Should that be a Normative MUST?
<br>
<br>I rewrote the sentence as follows to avoid ambiguity.
<br>
<br>                                In order to provide protection paths wh=
ich are
<br>   immediately usable by the point of local repair in the event of a
<br>   failure, the associated LSPs need to be created before a failure
<br>   occurs.
<br></div></div></span></blockquote> <br><div class=3D"bloop_sign"></div>

</div></body></html>

--001a114641c271d9ae055d6cb7d0--


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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
To: sec-ads@ietf.org, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
Cc: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>
References: <2da71163-cf29-cba6-df61-d75a2cfc9c43@gmail.com> <d3b28075-d8c0-c677-1f4b-6ad5ee5539ca@gmail.com> <CAA=duU2PzZLymVZk-PR9B94Pj1WMsHe+TTv51Ukef2MaSg-DbA@mail.gmail.com> <5994f353-5306-0fa8-2d2d-024ebdbb10df@gmail.com> <CAA=duU2YLjSg8Q5PDT+u9cxn9u2xsiPu-imBJrnyL3bfkQFW7A@mail.gmail.com> <7ee4fd77-7d8d-0db2-527e-9cf91d87e634@gmail.com> <CAA=duU3nJsS86udidgkH9jhB9ZD+xaRa2A4MniAVL1BpGE78ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <cf0cb5a4-cc21-97e1-1c26-38974bf9c0be@pi.nu> <51b9e5b4-0a44-1449-a4df-91e4f9df5d6b@pi.nu> <CAA=duU2R9kBMWnRdwPPO49LF1Jc1tyrxvwkyTgaE6SC6jsVruw@mail.gmail.com> <02a50f02-779e-bc39-505c-5a51d066b3f0@pi.nu> <CAA=duU1qV-LiU5pR7VtLLVGtb-8nZHrnUqVyOKpST3-6Dr-Xgw@mail.gmail.com> <ce2c75b6-156d-da80-91d7-b7e6ba2059a0@gmail.com> <CAA=duU1xvV0genbR0CBx2rmpOWUkFmRJX3qrMEp21gTd1HOVww@mail.gmail.com> <f0d553da-0ac4-e794-5cd5-d9cc95063dc6@pi.nu>
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:27:39 +0000
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Subject: [mpls] LDP Security
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To the SEC and RTG ADs,

I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
PALS WG Chairs.

There is a concern shared among the security community and the working 
groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately 
secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its 
messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to 
meet current security requirements.

In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. 
Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:

"LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the 
authenticity and integrity of session messages.

"[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to 
be too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP 
option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) 
could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been 
defined and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP 
message digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 
is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be 
relatively straightforward."

We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 
with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach 
to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is 
currently no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function 
specified. We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, 
implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further 
forward

We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 
7454 that contains the following requirement:

"Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure 
the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP 
MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must 
be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD 
mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD 
is unavailable."

We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP 
security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we 
need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In 
the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as 
a configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work 
is complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to 
issue a further update requiring its use.

Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an 
indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF 
anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.

The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it 
can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and 
which will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the 
convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not 
significantly impact router convergence we simply close one 
vulnerability and open another.

As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need 
to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help 
correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our 
misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the 
recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).

Best regards

The MPLS WG Chairs
The PALS WG Chairs



From nobody Wed Nov  8 10:00:41 2017
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 09:59:44 -0800
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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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--001a1142d0d4432907055d7c76f5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Stewart

Thanks for your note.

My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.

TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
- It uses weak algorithms
- It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)

TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies
the algorithm
issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress
on the key
management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
either of these
technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use). We
should probably
talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to get better any time
soon.

In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
"SHA-256", with
the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.

-Ekr


[0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a huge
improvement.
[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
opportunistic.  That said,
it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
after connection
setup and doesn't require configuration.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
wrote:

> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>
> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
> PALS WG Chairs.
>
> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet
> current security requirements.
>
> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>
> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>
> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to be
> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
> option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example)
> could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined
> and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message
> digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is
> specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
> straightforward."
>
> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5
> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to
> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently
> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified.
> We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations
> will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>
> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC
> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>
> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure
> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP MD5
> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD
> mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
> unavailable."
>
> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we
> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In
> the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a
> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue
> a further update requiring its use.
>
> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>
> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can
> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which
> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly
> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
> another.
>
> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need
> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help
> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).
>
> Best regards
>
> The MPLS WG Chairs
> The PALS WG Chairs
>
>
>

--001a1142d0d4432907055d7c76f5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Stewart<div><br></div><div>Thanks for your note.</div><=
div><br></div><div>My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much l=
ike yours.</div><div><br></div><div>TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major resp=
ects:</div><div>- It uses weak algorithms<br></div><div>- It has a bad nego=
tiation/setuop story (manual key management)</div><div><br></div><div>TCP-A=
O is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies the a=
lgorithm</div><div>issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven&#39=
;t made much progress on the key</div><div>management story, and that seems=
 to be a major impediment to deploying either of these</div><div>technologi=
es (which I am given to understand don&#39;t see a lot of use). We should p=
robably</div><div>talk in Singapore about that, but that&#39;s not going to=
 get better any time soon.</div><div><br></div><div>In the interim, I think=
 the text you have is OK, and &quot;TBD&quot; should read &quot;SHA-256&quo=
t;, with</div><div>the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.</div><=
div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[0] Technic=
ally It has better support for rollover, but this is not a huge improvement=
.</div><div>[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it&#39;s unauthentic=
ated but opportunistic.=C2=A0 That said,</div><div>it would provide defense=
 against attackers who gain access to the link after connection</div><div>s=
etup and doesn&#39;t require configuration.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewa=
rt Bryant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">To the SEC and RTG ADs,<br>
<br>
I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the<br>
PALS WG Chairs.<br>
<br>
There is a concern shared among the security community and the working grou=
ps that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately secured. =
LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its messages, but=
 MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet current securi=
ty requirements.<br>
<br>
In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. Sessio=
n communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:<br>
<br>
&quot;LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the =
authenticity and integrity of session messages.<br>
<br>
&quot;[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some t=
o be too weak for this application.=C2=A0 It also points out that a similar=
 TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example=
) could be deployed.=C2=A0 To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been de=
fined and deployed.=C2=A0 However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP me=
ssage digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is sp=
ecified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively straig=
htforward.&quot;<br>
<br>
We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 wi=
th TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to se=
cure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently n=
o recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified. We=
 are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations will=
 simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward<br>
<br>
We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 745=
4 that contains the following requirement:<br>
<br>
&quot;Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secur=
e the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be i=
mplemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism=
 is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is unavailabl=
e.&quot;<br>
<br>
We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP secu=
rity negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we need t=
o include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the abse=
nce of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a configur=
ation process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is complete.=
 On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue a furthe=
r update requiring its use.<br>
<br>
Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an indefini=
te lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF anticipates updat=
ing the default cryptographic mechanism over time.<br>
<br>
The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can r=
easonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which wil=
l provide adequate security without significantly degrading the convergence=
 time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly impact rout=
er convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open another.<br>
<br>
As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we=C2=A0 ne=
ed to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help=
 correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our misunderstan=
ding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the recommendations =
of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
The PALS WG Chairs<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1142d0d4432907055d7c76f5--


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From: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 12:52:40 -0800
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To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
wrote:

> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security is
> analyzed from all aspects.
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>
>
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <
> rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
> Hi Stewart
>
>
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
>
>
> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>
>
>
> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>
> - It uses weak algorithms
>
> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>
>
>
> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedie=
s
> the algorithm
>
> Issue
>
>
>
> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>
>
>
> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on th=
e
> key
>
> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
> either of these
>
> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>
>
>
> [Uma]: True.
>
>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back
> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP,
> MSDP ..).
>
>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-A=
O
> MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) - https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/
> draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>
>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Joe pu=
t
> together https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-
> ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt
>
>            Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP W=
G (not
> fully sure the reasons on why).
>

Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kinda
didn't progress much.




> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to
> get better any time soon.
>
>
>
> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
> "SHA-256", with
>
> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>
>
>
> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in th=
e
> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>

Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.

-Ekr


>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a hug=
e
> improvement.
>
> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
> opportunistic.  That said,
>
> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
> after connection
>
> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>
> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
> PALS WG Chairs.
>
> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet
> current security requirements.
>
> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>
> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>
> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to b=
e
> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
> option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example)
> could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined
> and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message
> digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is
> specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
> straightforward."
>
> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5
> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach t=
o
> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is current=
ly
> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified.
> We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations
> will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>
> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC
> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>
> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure
> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5
> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD
> mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
> unavailable."
>
> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we
> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In
> the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as =
a
> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to iss=
ue
> a further update requiring its use.
>
> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>
> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can
> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which
> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantl=
y
> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
> another.
>
> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need
> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help
> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).
>
> Best regards
>
> The MPLS WG Chairs
> The PALS WG Chairs
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huaw=
ei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7684488314671430223WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-7684488314671430223__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:#1f497d">Hi Stewart,<u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I would note
</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc6952</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> - where L=
DP security
 is analyzed from all aspects. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Eric,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Quick comments below [Uma]:<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">--</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Freestyle Script&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Uma C.</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Brush Script MT&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-=
chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pa=
ls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec=
-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play is, I think mu=
ch like yours.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key =
management)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for T=
CP-MD5 and so remedies the algorithm<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</span><div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Issue<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 ma=
ndatory list..<u></u><u></u></span></p><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">but not the key management issue [0]. We haven&#39;t=
 made much progress on the key<u></u><u></u></p>
</span></div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to be a major imped=
iment to deploying either of these<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">technologies (which I am given to understand don&#39=
;t see a lot of use).
<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: True.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0But I would indicate =
some effort done few years back regarding key management for pair wise rout=
ing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP, MSDP ..).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0One such proposal is =
by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey &amp; alg=
o. agility) -
</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05<=
/a>=C2=A0
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This also requires so=
me more work with TCP-AO; me &amp; Joe put together
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using=
-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/<=
wbr>id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-<wbr>ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the=
 concluded KARP WG (not fully sure the reasons on why).</span></p></div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, I know that people tr=
ied to do this, but my impression was it kinda didn&#39;t progress much.</d=
iv><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;=
font-size:11pt"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"><br></span></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"=
>=C2=A0</span></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-7684488314671430223WordSection1=
"><div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We should probably<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"> </s=
pan>talk in Singapore about that, but that&#39;s not going to get better an=
y time soon.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and=
 &quot;TBD&quot; should read &quot;SHA-256&quot;, with<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: While the list can be e=
xtended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in the mandatory list in RFC 5926 for=
 MAC.</span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ge=
nerally we&#39;re trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.</div><div=
><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-7684488314=
671430223WordSection1"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support for rollover, =
but this is not a huge improvement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it&#39;s =
unauthenticated but opportunistic.=C2=A0 That said,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it would provide defense against attackers who gain =
access to the link after connection<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">setup and doesn&#39;t require configuration.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</span></div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the SEC and RTG AD=
s,<br>
<br>
I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the<br>
PALS WG Chairs.<br>
<br>
There is a concern shared among the security community and the working grou=
ps that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately secured. =
LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its messages, but=
 MD5 is a hash function that is
 no longer considered to meet current security requirements.<br>
<br>
In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. Sessio=
n communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:<br>
<br>
&quot;LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the =
authenticity and integrity of session messages.<br>
<br>
&quot;[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some t=
o be too weak for this application.=C2=A0 It also points out that a similar=
 TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example=
) could be deployed.=C2=A0 To our knowledge, no
 such TCP option has been defined and deployed.=C2=A0 However, we note that=
 LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and when=
 one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use i=
t would be relatively straightforward.&quot;<br>
<br>
We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 wi=
th TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to se=
cure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently n=
o recommended, mandatory to implement,
 cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that without such a man=
datory function, implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will b=
e no further forward<br>
<br>
We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 745=
4 that contains the following requirement:<br>
<br>
&quot;Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secur=
e the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be i=
mplemented and provided to TCP-AO to
 secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is=
 only to be used when TBD is unavailable.&quot;<br>
<br>
We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP secu=
rity negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we need t=
o include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the abse=
nce of a negotiation protocol, however,
 we need to leave this as a configuration process until such time as the ne=
gotiation protocol work is complete. On completion of a suitable negotiatio=
n protocol we need to issue a further update requiring its use.<br>
<br>
Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an indefini=
te lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF anticipates updat=
ing the default cryptographic mechanism over time.<br>
<br>
The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can r=
easonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which wil=
l provide adequate security without significantly degrading the convergence=
 time of an LSR. Without a function
 that does not significantly impact router convergence we simply close one =
vulnerability and open another.<br>
<br>
As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we=C2=A0 ne=
ed to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help=
 correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our misunderstan=
ding of the existing security mechanisms.
 We also need the recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in t=
he above text).<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
The PALS WG Chairs<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c05e1a6c6da8d055d7ee0eb--


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--089e08221adc5c9a52055d7f2982
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Hi All,

We'd like to move to last call on the RMR document, but first there are a
couple of loose ends we'd like to tie up, specifically, the "Advanced
topics" in the -05 version of the draft.

a) how should the RMR document deal with "half-rings"?

Consider the following half-ring:

    A    B
    |    |
    C----D

Here are some options:
i) the RMR document shouldn't concern itself with this case
ii) create a PW from A to B to complete the ring
ii) instead of creating N LSPs (in this case 4), only create LSPs from A to
B and from B to A.

b) how should the RMR document deal with protecting hub nodes?
i) not deal with it.
ii) use technology akin to PIC edge

We feel that it is important to address both these issues. We are
soliciting your response, either among the options suggested, or
potentially other ideas.

Thanks,
-- 
Kireeti

--089e08221adc5c9a52055d7f2982
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi All,<div><br></div><div>We&#39;d like to move to last c=
all on the RMR document, but first there are a couple of loose ends we&#39;=
d like to tie up, specifically, the &quot;Advanced topics&quot; in the -05 =
version of the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>a) how should the RMR docume=
nt deal with &quot;half-rings&quot;?</div><div><br></div><div>Consider the =
following half-ring:</div><div><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, mono=
space">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A =C2=A0 =C2=A0B</font></div><div><font face=3D"monosp=
ace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</font></div><div><font face=
=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 C----D</font></div><div><br></div><=
div>Here are some options:</div><div>i) the RMR document shouldn&#39;t conc=
ern itself with this case</div><div>ii) create a PW from A to B to complete=
 the ring</div><div>ii) instead of creating N LSPs (in this case 4), only c=
reate LSPs from A to B and from B to A.</div><div><br></div><div>b) how sho=
uld the RMR document deal with protecting hub nodes?</div><div>i) not deal =
with it.</div><div>ii) use technology akin to PIC edge</div><div><br></div>=
<div>We feel that it is important to address both these issues. We are soli=
citing your response, either among the options suggested, or potentially ot=
her ideas.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,<br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_s=
ignature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">Kireeti</div>
</div></div>

--089e08221adc5c9a52055d7f2982--


From nobody Wed Nov  8 13:34:32 2017
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From: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "sec-ads@ietf.org" <sec-ads@ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
Thread-Index: AQHTWLbpcFjTDKhuoEWsKIVkOj1Ru6MLAD6w
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 21:34:20 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
Thread-Index: AQHTWLbpcFjTDKhuoEWsKIVkOj1Ru6MLGRoA///qPtA=
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 22:01:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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From: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 23:50:24 +0000
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 15:52:51 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBPK=ze90qa1qzMsUMVN_=5Pf85Nv6uanEvsV5nVR4v0HA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/6WRJfZJOxmnhL-ZsYHdNPPWFmwo>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
wrote:

> In-line [Uma1]:
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
> *To:* Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security is
> analyzed from all aspects.
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>
>
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <
> rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
> Hi Stewart
>
>
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
>
>
> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>
>
>
> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>
> - It uses weak algorithms
>
> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>
>
>
> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedie=
s
> the algorithm
>
> Issue
>
>
>
> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>
>
>
> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on th=
e
> key
>
> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
> either of these
>
> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>
>
>
> [Uma]: True.
>
>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back
> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP,
> MSDP ..).
>
>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-A=
O
> MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) - https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/
> draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>
>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Joe pu=
t
> together https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-
> ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt
>
>            Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP W=
G (not
> fully sure the reasons on why).
>
>
>
> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kinda
> didn't progress much.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to
> get better any time soon.
>
>
>
> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
> "SHA-256", with
>
> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>
>
>
> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in th=
e
> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>
>
>
> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
>
>
>
> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
>
> 1.       *Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course):* Use TCP-AO
> (instead of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 s=
o the
> =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
>
> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256
> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one
> way from existing stuff or even  #1.
>
I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, just
with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as I
know.

-Ekr


> 3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get all we=
 wanted=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not **mostly**
> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and =
#3
> for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a hug=
e
> improvement.
>
> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
> opportunistic.  That said,
>
> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
> after connection
>
> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>
> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
> PALS WG Chairs.
>
> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet
> current security requirements.
>
> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>
> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>
> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to b=
e
> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
> option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example)
> could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined
> and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message
> digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is
> specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
> straightforward."
>
> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5
> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach t=
o
> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is current=
ly
> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified.
> We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations
> will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>
> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC
> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>
> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure
> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5
> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD
> mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
> unavailable."
>
> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we
> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In
> the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as =
a
> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to iss=
ue
> a further update requiring its use.
>
> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>
> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can
> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which
> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantl=
y
> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
> another.
>
> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need
> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help
> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).
>
> Best regards
>
> The MPLS WG Chairs
> The PALS WG Chairs
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_9201392996604553140WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_9201392996604553140__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;co=
lor:#1f497d">In-line [Uma1]:<u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">--</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Freestyle Script&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Uma C.</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Brush Script MT&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs=
@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-cha=
irs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@i=
etf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-=
ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_9201392996604553140_m_-7684488314671430=
223__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart,</span></a><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I would note
</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc6952</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
 - where LDP security is analyzed from all aspects. </span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Eric,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Quick comments below [Uma]:</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">--</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Uma C.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
pals@ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play is, I think mu=
ch like yours.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key =
management)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for T=
CP-MD5 and so remedies the algorithm<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Issue<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 ma=
ndatory list..</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">but not the key management issue [0]. We haven&#39;t=
 made much progress on the key<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to be a major imped=
iment to deploying either of these<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">technologies (which I am given to understand don&#39=
;t see a lot of use).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: True.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0But I would indicate =
some effort done few years back regarding key management for pair
 wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP, MSDP ..). </span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0One such proposal is =
by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey
 &amp; algo. agility) - </span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>dr=
aft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05</a>=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This also requires so=
me more work with TCP-AO; me &amp; Joe put together
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using=
-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/<=
wbr>id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-<wbr>ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the=
 concluded KARP WG (not fully sure the reasons on why).</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my im=
pression was it kinda didn&#39;t progress much.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We should probably<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">
</span>talk in Singapore about that, but that&#39;s not going to get better=
 any time soon.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and=
 &quot;TBD&quot; should read &quot;SHA-256&quot;, with<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: While the list can be extended=
 - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in the mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Generally we&#39;re trying to move away from SHA-1 t=
owards SHA-256.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma1]: Couple of things:=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_9201392996604553140MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:58.=
5pt">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Nothing to be done (from spec=
 pov of course):</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> Use TCP-AO
 (instead of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so=
 the =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_9201392996604553140MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:58.=
5pt">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As #1 too is not good enough fro=
m your above note - do SHA-256 and live with it (no algorithm agility). Sti=
ll a security benefit in one way from existing
 stuff or even =C2=A0#1.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div>I&#39;m not sure why you say &quot;no algorithm agility&quot;=
. You&#39;d be using AO, just with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CM=
AC is still fine as far as I know.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"=
blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_9201392996604553140WordSection1"><di=
v><div><div><div><p class=3D"m_9201392996604553140MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin-left:58.5pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_9201392996604553140MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:58.=
5pt">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do key management and =E2=80=9Ct=
heoretically=E2=80=9D get all we wanted=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We have been here multiple times; bec=
ause #1 itself is not *<b>mostly</b>* deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) =
if there is any appetite for #2 and #3 for practical
 deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div><span class=3D"">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support for rollover, =
but this is not a huge improvement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it&#39;s =
unauthenticated but opportunistic.=C2=A0 That said,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it would provide defense against attackers who gain =
access to the link after connection<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">setup and doesn&#39;t require configuration.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the SEC and RTG AD=
s,<br>
<br>
I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the<br>
PALS WG Chairs.<br>
<br>
There is a concern shared among the security community and the working grou=
ps that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately secured. =
LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its messages, but=
 MD5 is a hash function that is
 no longer considered to meet current security requirements.<br>
<br>
In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. Sessio=
n communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:<br>
<br>
&quot;LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the =
authenticity and integrity of session messages.<br>
<br>
&quot;[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some t=
o be too weak for this application.=C2=A0 It also points out that a similar=
 TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example=
) could be deployed.=C2=A0 To our knowledge, no
 such TCP option has been defined and deployed.=C2=A0 However, we note that=
 LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and when=
 one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use i=
t would be relatively straightforward.&quot;<br>
<br>
We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 wi=
th TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to se=
cure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently n=
o recommended, mandatory to implement,
 cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that without such a man=
datory function, implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will b=
e no further forward<br>
<br>
We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 745=
4 that contains the following requirement:<br>
<br>
&quot;Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secur=
e the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be i=
mplemented and provided to TCP-AO to
 secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is=
 only to be used when TBD is unavailable.&quot;<br>
<br>
We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP secu=
rity negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we need t=
o include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the abse=
nce of a negotiation protocol, however,
 we need to leave this as a configuration process until such time as the ne=
gotiation protocol work is complete. On completion of a suitable negotiatio=
n protocol we need to issue a further update requiring its use.<br>
<br>
Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an indefini=
te lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF anticipates updat=
ing the default cryptographic mechanism over time.<br>
<br>
The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can r=
easonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which wil=
l provide adequate security without significantly degrading the convergence=
 time of an LSR. Without a function
 that does not significantly impact router convergence we simply close one =
vulnerability and open another.<br>
<br>
As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we=C2=A0 ne=
ed to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help=
 correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our misunderstan=
ding of the existing security mechanisms.
 We also need the recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in t=
he above text).<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
The PALS WG Chairs<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1141671815d758055d8165b4--


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From: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 00:14:12 +0000
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 16:44:28 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBO56DrS9EAUJ2WwD3ucR9+HvDem3AQVVe_CzY55TgXkQQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have TCP-AO
then presumably they have SHA-1.

But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this case,
so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.

-Ekr


On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
wrote:

> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
>
> *To:* Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> In-line [Uma1]:
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
> *To:* Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security is
> analyzed from all aspects.
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>
>
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <
> rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
> Hi Stewart
>
>
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
>
>
> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>
>
>
> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>
> - It uses weak algorithms
>
> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>
>
>
> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedie=
s
> the algorithm
>
> Issue
>
>
>
> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>
>
>
> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on th=
e
> key
>
> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
> either of these
>
> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>
>
>
> [Uma]: True.
>
>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back
> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP,
> MSDP ..).
>
>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-A=
O
> MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) - https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/
> draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>
>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Joe pu=
t
> together https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-
> ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt
>
>            Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP W=
G (not
> fully sure the reasons on why).
>
>
>
> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kinda
> didn't progress much.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to
> get better any time soon.
>
>
>
> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
> "SHA-256", with
>
> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>
>
>
> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in th=
e
> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>
>
>
> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
>
>
>
> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
>
> 1.       *Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course):* Use TCP-AO
> (instead of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 s=
o the
> =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
>
> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256
> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one
> way from existing stuff or even  #1.
>
> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, just
> with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as I
> know.
>
> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
>
>                  But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one MUST
> implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually work
>  (especially - **if** #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
>
>                  Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do negotiatio=
n
> through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> 3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get all we=
 wanted=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not **mostly**
> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and =
#3
> for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a hug=
e
> improvement.
>
> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
> opportunistic.  That said,
>
> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
> after connection
>
> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>
> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
> PALS WG Chairs.
>
> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet
> current security requirements.
>
> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>
> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>
> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to b=
e
> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
> option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example)
> could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined
> and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message
> digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is
> specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
> straightforward."
>
> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5
> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach t=
o
> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is current=
ly
> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified.
> We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations
> will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>
> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC
> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>
> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure
> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5
> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD
> mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
> unavailable."
>
> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we
> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In
> the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as =
a
> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to iss=
ue
> a further update requiring its use.
>
> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>
> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can
> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which
> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantl=
y
> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
> another.
>
> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need
> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help
> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).
>
> Best regards
>
> The MPLS WG Chairs
> The PALS WG Chairs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--94eb2c079026c30986055d821d85
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t understand what you&#39;re getting at here. Ye=
s, if people have TCP-AO then presumably they have SHA-1.<div><br></div><di=
v>But now we&#39;re talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this c=
ase, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.<br=
><div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at =
4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@=
huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_4487282337973396343WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM</span></p><div><div class=
=3D"h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs=
@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-cha=
irs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@i=
etf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-=
ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huaw=
ei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4487282337973396343_m_92013929966045531=
40__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In-line [Uma1]:</span></a><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">--</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Uma C.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
pals@ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_4487282337973396343_m_92013929966045531=
40_m_-768448831467143"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart,</span></a><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I would note
</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952" target=3D"_blank"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc6952</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
 - where LDP security is analyzed from all aspects. </span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Eric,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Quick comments below [Uma]:</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">--</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Uma C.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
pals@ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play is, I think mu=
ch like yours.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key =
management)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for T=
CP-MD5 and so remedies the algorithm<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Issue<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 ma=
ndatory list..</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">but not the key management issue [0]. We haven&#39;t=
 made much progress on the key<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to be a major imped=
iment to deploying either of these<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">technologies (which I am given to understand don&#39=
;t see a lot of use).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: True.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0But I would indicate =
some effort done few years back regarding key management for pair
 wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP, MSDP ..). </span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0One such proposal is =
by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey
 &amp; algo. agility) - </span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>dr=
aft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05</a>=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This also requires so=
me more work with TCP-AO; me &amp; Joe put together
</span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using=
-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/<=
wbr>id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-<wbr>ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt</a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the=
 concluded KARP WG (not fully sure the reasons on why).</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my im=
pression was it kinda didn&#39;t progress much.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We should probably<span style=3D"color:#1f497d">
</span>talk in Singapore about that, but that&#39;s not going to get better=
 any time soon.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and=
 &quot;TBD&quot; should read &quot;SHA-256&quot;, with<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: While the list can be extended=
 - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in the mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Generally we&#39;re trying to move away from SHA-1 t=
owards SHA-256.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma1]: Couple of things:</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4487282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:58.5pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,s=
ans-serif;color:#1f497d">Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course):</spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif;color:#1f497d"> Use TCP-AO (instead of current MD5)
 with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so the =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=
=99 in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_4487282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:58.5pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - d=
o SHA-256 and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit=
 in one way from existing stuff or even =C2=A0#1.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure why you say &quot;no algorithm agil=
ity&quot;. You&#39;d be using AO, just with a different algorithm than SHA-=
1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as I know.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">[Uma2]: Sure, you have it=
, if you use AO;
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0But then =
=C2=A0I am not getting how we can mandate one MUST implement algorithm as s=
uggested below TBD=C2=A0 would actually work =C2=A0(especially - *<b>if</b>=
*
 #1 is already deployed somewhere?)=C2=A0=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Perhaps s=
taying with #1 is the best bet or do negotiation through #3, with already m=
andated and additional stuff.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_4487282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:58.5pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7=
.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D=
 get all we wanted=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">We have been here multiple times; bec=
ause #1 itself is not *<b>mostly</b>* deployed (neither in BGP
 nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and #3 for practical deploymen=
ts. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support for rollover, =
but this is not a huge improvement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it&#39;s =
unauthenticated but opportunistic.=C2=A0 That said,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it would provide defense against attackers who gain =
access to the link after connection<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">setup and doesn&#39;t require configuration.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the SEC and RTG AD=
s,<br>
<br>
I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the<br>
PALS WG Chairs.<br>
<br>
There is a concern shared among the security community and the working grou=
ps that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately secured. =
LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its messages, but=
 MD5 is a hash function that is
 no longer considered to meet current security requirements.<br>
<br>
In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. Sessio=
n communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:<br>
<br>
&quot;LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the =
authenticity and integrity of session messages.<br>
<br>
&quot;[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some t=
o be too weak for this application.=C2=A0 It also points out that a similar=
 TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example=
) could be deployed.=C2=A0 To our knowledge, no
 such TCP option has been defined and deployed.=C2=A0 However, we note that=
 LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and when=
 one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use i=
t would be relatively straightforward.&quot;<br>
<br>
We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 wi=
th TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to se=
cure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently n=
o recommended, mandatory to implement,
 cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that without such a man=
datory function, implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will b=
e no further forward<br>
<br>
We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 745=
4 that contains the following requirement:<br>
<br>
&quot;Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secur=
e the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be i=
mplemented and provided to TCP-AO to
 secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is=
 only to be used when TBD is unavailable.&quot;<br>
<br>
We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP secu=
rity negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we need t=
o include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the abse=
nce of a negotiation protocol, however,
 we need to leave this as a configuration process until such time as the ne=
gotiation protocol work is complete. On completion of a suitable negotiatio=
n protocol we need to issue a further update requiring its use.<br>
<br>
Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an indefini=
te lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF anticipates updat=
ing the default cryptographic mechanism over time.<br>
<br>
The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can r=
easonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which wil=
l provide adequate security without significantly degrading the convergence=
 time of an LSR. Without a function
 that does not significantly impact router convergence we simply close one =
vulnerability and open another.<br>
<br>
As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we=C2=A0 ne=
ed to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help=
 correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our misunderstan=
ding of the existing security mechanisms.
 We also need the recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in t=
he above text).<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
The PALS WG Chairs<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c079026c30986055d821d85--


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From: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:13:37 -0800
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To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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--001a1142e4ccf10165055d828599
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
wrote:

>
>
> >But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this
> case, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.
>
>
>
> As discussed this
>

What is "this"?

-Ekr


> is non-existent as far as AO is concerned (as of today); so if we ought to
> mandate this with TBD language as indicated- first this has to be added and
> assume no body deployed AO.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>

--001a1142e4ccf10165055d828599
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Uma Chunduri <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_4965421134848825082WordSection1">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1f4=
97d">&gt;</span>But now we&#39;re talking about requiring people to have TC=
P-AO in this case, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we =
require AO.<span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As discussed this </span></p><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What is &quot;this&=
quot;?</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div clas=
s=3D"m_4965421134848825082WordSection1"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;co=
lor:#1f497d">is non-existent as far as AO is concerned (as of today); so if=
 we ought to mandate this with TBD language as indicated- first this has to=
 be
 added and assume no body deployed AO. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Uma C.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1142e4ccf10165055d828599--


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From: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
To: "'Eric Rescorla'" <ekr@rtfm.com>, "'Uma Chunduri'" <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: <mpls@ietf.org>, <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, <pals@ietf.org>, <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/MYt--QUevLFbMa5eUvfGGTrXRpk>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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Eric:=20

=20

BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and LDP =
=E2=80=93 but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of =
these protocols on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP =
started, but we did not.=20

=20

Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the DC =
providers say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one =
administration=E2=80=9D.  Another problem is on private lines.    We =
should chat about the networks each of these protocols are actually =
deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to encourage adoption, =
I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really mean =
anything if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it. =20

=20

Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to =
getting people to TCP-AO.  =20

=20

Sue=20

=20

From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
To: Uma Chunduri
Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; =
mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security

=20

I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have =
TCP-AO then presumably they have SHA-1.

=20

But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this =
case, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require =
AO.

=20

-Ekr

=20

=20

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> =
wrote:

From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM


To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org; =
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; =
mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> =
<sec-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security

=20

=20

=20

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> =
wrote:

In-line [Uma1]:

--

Uma C.

=20

From: Eric Rescorla [mailto: <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com> ekr@rtfm.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
To: Uma Chunduri < <mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com> =
uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
Cc: Stewart Bryant < <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com> =
stewart.bryant@gmail.com>;  <mailto:mpls@ietf.org> mpls@ietf.org;  =
<mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; < =
<mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org> rtg-ads@ietf.org> < <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org> =
rtg-ads@ietf.org>;  <mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org> mpls-chairs@ietf.org;  =
<mailto:pals@ietf.org> pals@ietf.org; < <mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org> =
sec-ads@ietf.org> < <mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org> sec-ads@ietf.org>


Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security

=20

=20

=20

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com> =
wrote:

Hi Stewart,

=20

I would note  <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security is analyzed =
from all aspects.=20

=20

Eric,

=20

Quick comments below [Uma]:

=20

--

Uma C.

=20

From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> =
<rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; =
<sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security

=20

Hi Stewart

=20

Thanks for your note.

=20

My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.

=20

TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:

- It uses weak algorithms

- It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)

=20

TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so =
remedies the algorithm

Issue

=20

[Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..

=20

but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on =
the key

management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying =
either of these

technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).=20

=20

[Uma]: True.=20

               But I would indicate some effort done few years back =
regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, =
PCEP, MSDP ..).=20

               One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate =
TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05 =20

               This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Joe =
put together =
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-=
ao-06.txt=20

           Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP =
WG (not fully sure the reasons on why).

=20

Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it =
kinda didn't progress much.

=20

=20

=20

We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to =
get better any time soon.

=20

In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read =
"SHA-256", with

the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.

=20

[Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in =
the mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.

=20

Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.

=20

[Uma1]: Couple of things:

1.       Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): Use TCP-AO =
(instead of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 =
so the =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in Stewart suggesting below is already =
there.=20

2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256 =
and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one =
way from existing stuff or even  #1.

I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, just =
with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as =
I know.

[Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;=20

                 But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one MUST =
implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually work  =
(especially - *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)  =20

                 Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do =
negotiation through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.   =20

=20

-Ekr

=20

3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get all =
we wanted=E2=80=A6.

=20

We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly* =
deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and =
#3 for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any =
ways.

=20

=20

-Ekr

=20

=20

-Ekr

=20

=20

[0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a =
huge improvement.

[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but =
opportunistic.  That said,

it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link =
after connection

setup and doesn't require configuration.

=20

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant =
<stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

To the SEC and RTG ADs,

I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
PALS WG Chairs.

There is a concern shared among the security community and the working =
groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately =
secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its =
messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to =
meet current security requirements.

In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. =
Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:

"LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the =
authenticity and integrity of session messages.

"[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to =
be too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP =
option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) =
could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been =
defined and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP =
message digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 =
is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be =
relatively straightforward."

We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 =
with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach =
to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is =
currently no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function =
specified. We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, =
implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further =
forward

We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC =
7454 that contains the following requirement:

"Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure =
the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP =
MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must =
be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD =
mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD =
is unavailable."

We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP =
security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we =
need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In =
the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as =
a configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work =
is complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to =
issue a further update requiring its use.

Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an =
indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF =
anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.

The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it =
can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and =
which will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the =
convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not =
significantly impact router convergence we simply close one =
vulnerability and open another.

As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need =
to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help =
correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our =
misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the =
recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).

Best regards

The MPLS WG Chairs
The PALS WG Chairs

=20

=20

=20

=20


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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Eric: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and =
LDP =E2=80=93 but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment =
of these protocols on many networks.=C2=A0 I wished we had TCP-AO when =
BGP started, but we did not. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the =
DC providers say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one =
administration=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Another problem is on private =
lines.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0We should chat about the networks each of these =
protocols are actually deployed on.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If you have any insight =
on a way to encourage adoption, I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require =
TCP-AO does not really mean anything if providers and Data Centers do =
not adopt it. =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to =
getting people to TCP-AO. =C2=A0=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Sue <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric =
Rescorla<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri<br><b>Cc:</b> mpls@ietf.org; =
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; &lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;; =
mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; =
&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP =
Security<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I don't =
understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have TCP-AO then =
presumably they have SHA-1.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>But now we're talking about requiring people to have =
TCP-AO in this case, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the =
time we require AO.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, =
Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> Eric =
Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November =
08, 2017 3:53 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Stewart =
Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</a>; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] =
LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Nov =
8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a =
name=3D"m_4487282337973396343_m_9201392996604553"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>In-line [Uma1]:</span><o:p></o:p></a></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Uma C.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> Eric =
Rescorla [mailto:</span><a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>ekr@rtfm.co=
m</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> Uma =
Chunduri &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>uma.chundur=
i@huawei.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&gt;<br><b>=
Cc:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>stewart.bry=
ant@gmail.com</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&gt;; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>mpls@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>pals-chairs=
@tools.ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>rtg-ads@iet=
f.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&gt; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>rtg-ads@iet=
f.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&gt;; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>mpls-chairs=
@ietf.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>; =
</span><a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>pals@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>sec-ads@iet=
f.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&gt; =
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>sec-ads@iet=
f.org</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&gt;</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><br><b>Subje=
ct:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Nov =
8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Hi Stewart,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I would note </span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952" =
target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/rfc6952</span></a><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> - where LDP security is analyzed from all aspects. =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Eric,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Quick comments below [Uma]:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>--</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Uma C.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span=
></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> mpls =
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric =
Rescorla<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</a>; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] =
LDP Security</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi =
Stewart<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks for =
your note.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>My overall =
sense of the state of play is, I think much like =
yours.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>TCP-MD5 is =
inadequate in two major respects:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- It uses =
weak algorithms<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>- It has a =
bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key =
management)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>TCP-AO is =
intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies the =
algorithm<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Issue<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory =
list..</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>but not the =
key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on the =
key<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>management =
story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying either of =
these<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>technologies=
 (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use). =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[Uma]: True. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But I would indicate some effort done few years back =
regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, =
PCEP, MSDP ..). </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate =
TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey &amp; algo. agility) - </span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05" =
target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05</=
a>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me =
&amp; Joe put together </span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-w=
ith-tcp-ao-06.txt" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-usi=
ng-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP WG (not =
fully sure the reasons on =
why).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Yeah, I =
know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kinda didn't =
progress much.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>We should =
probably<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'> </span>talk in Singapore about =
that, but that's not going to get better any time soon.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>In the =
interim, I think the text you have is OK, and &quot;TBD&quot; should =
read &quot;SHA-256&quot;, with<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>the =
fallback being SHA-256 -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 =
in the mandatory list in RFC 5926 for =
MAC.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Generally =
we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[Uma1]: Couple of things:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dm4487282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:58.5pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>1.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course):</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'> Use TCP-AO (instead of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated =
MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so the =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in Stewart suggesting =
below is already there. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dm4487282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:58.5pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>2.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256 and =
live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one way =
from existing stuff or even =
&nbsp;#1.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I'm not =
sure why you say &quot;no algorithm agility&quot;. You'd be using AO, =
just with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as =
far as I know.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>[Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But then &nbsp;I am not getting how we =
can mandate one MUST implement algorithm as suggested below TBD&nbsp; =
would actually work &nbsp;(especially - *<b>if</b>* #1 is already =
deployed somewhere?)&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet =
or do negotiation through #3, with already mandated and additional =
stuff.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Ekr<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3Dm4487282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:58.5pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>3.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get all we =
wanted=E2=80=A6.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not =
*<b>mostly</b>* deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any =
appetite for #2 and #3 for practical deployments. But still it may be =
good to do #2 any ways.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Ekr<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Ekr<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[0] =
Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a huge =
improvement.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>[1] =
tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but =
opportunistic.&nbsp; That said,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>it would =
provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link after =
connection<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>setup and =
doesn't require configuration.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Nov =
8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>To the SEC and =
RTG ADs,<br><br>I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS =
and the<br>PALS WG Chairs.<br><br>There is a concern shared among the =
security community and the working groups that develop the LDP protocol =
that LDP is no longer adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 =
for cryptographic security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash function =
that is no longer considered to meet current security =
requirements.<br><br>In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) =
, List element 2. Session communication carried by TCP the following =
statements is made:<br><br>&quot;LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 =
Signature Option to provide for the authenticity and integrity of =
session messages.<br><br>&quot;[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication =
is now considered by some to be too weak for this application.&nbsp; It =
also points out that a similar TCP option with a stronger hashing =
algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.&nbsp; To our =
knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and deployed.&nbsp; =
However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques =
are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and =
implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively =
straightforward.&quot;<br><br>We note that BGP has already been through =
this process, and replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be =
logical to follow the same approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we =
are able to ascertain, there is currently no recommended, mandatory to =
implement, cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that =
without such a mandatory function, implementations will simply fall back =
to MD5 and we will be no further forward<br><br>We think that the best =
way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 7454 that contains the =
following requirement:<br><br>&quot;Implementations conforming to this =
RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in =
addition to the currently required TCP MD5 Signature Option. =
Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be implemented and =
provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the =
preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is =
unavailable.&quot;<br><br>We are not an experts on this part of the =
stack, but it seems that TCP security negotiation is still work in =
progress. If we are wrong, then we need to include a requirement that =
such negotiation is also required. In the absence of a negotiation =
protocol, however, we need to leave this as a configuration process =
until such time as the negotiation protocol work is complete. On =
completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue a further =
update requiring its use.<br><br>Additionally we should note that no =
cryptographic mechanism has an indefinite lifetime, and that =
implementation should note the IETF anticipates updating the default =
cryptographic mechanism over time.<br><br>The TBD default security =
function will need to be chosen such that it can reasonably be =
implemented on a typical router route processor, and which will provide =
adequate security without significantly degrading the convergence time =
of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly impact router =
convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open =
another.<br><br>As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security =
mechanisms, we&nbsp; need to ask the security area for a review of our =
proposed approach, and help correcting any misunderstanding of the =
security issues or our misunderstanding of the existing security =
mechanisms. We also need the recommendations of a suitable security =
function (TBD in the above text).<br><br>Best regards<br><br>The MPLS WG =
Chairs<br>The PALS WG Chairs<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01D358EF.DD56FD10--



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From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:28:07 +0900
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls]  =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-?= =?utf-8?q?ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Chris,

see below.

> Am 07.11.2017 um 01:14 schrieb Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>:
>=20
> Mirja,
>=20
> Thanks for the feedback.  Responses are inline with [CB].
>=20
> Thanks,
> Chris
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja =
K=C3=BChlewind
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:37 AM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org; =
mpls-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [mpls] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's No Objection on =
draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
>=20
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all =
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this =
introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> 1) I was just wondering if it was considered to just use one flag of =
the reserved field of the multi-topology extension in RFC7307 to =
advertise MRT support, given that MT must always advertised as well...?
>=20
> [CB]  I don't really understand the suggestion.  The document is =
requesting three values from the MPLS Multi-Topology Identifiers =
Registry (defined in RFC 7307). I think that we need all three, MRT-Red, =
MRT-Blue, and Rainbow MRT, for the protocol to work.  The registry has =
64k possible values (with 4k being most useful), of which only 6 are =
currently used.

I was thinking just about the MRT Capability Advertisement (use a flag =
instead of a new TLV Type, namely TBD-MRT-LDP-1). However this is not =
important...

>=20
> Or are you referring to the request for a value from the Label =
Distribution Protocol (LDP) Parameters registry "TLV Type Name Space"?
>=20
> 2) Why would a node withdraw the MRT capability/ when would it send a =
MRT advertisement with S=3D0?
>=20
> [CB]  As an example, a configuration change on the node to no longer =
participate in label distribution for MRT would generally result in a =
withdrawal of the MRT capability, which is done by setting S=3D0.  The =
document currently has a  reference to RFC 5661 "LDP Capabilities" for =
more information on this.  Do you think more text is needed in the =
document to clarify this?

Not necessarily. But it always helps to be rather explicit than =
implicit. It might be good to note that this is send based on things =
like config changes and not based on state changes that are happening =
during usual operation. However, maybe this is more obvious to people =
who are more expert than I am.

Mirja

>=20
> 3) If you update the document, please also see the gen-art review: =
there are many small nits which will probably also be caught by the RFC =
editor but if you can fix them now, that's even better!
>=20
> [CB]  Thanks.  I did that in a separate response.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 11:09:33 -0800
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To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Cc: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>, mpls@ietf.org, pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org,  "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, mpls-chairs@ietf.org, pals@ietf.org,  "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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Yeah, I agree. I don't really have any good ideas how to get people to do
AO. Based on comments I've heard, providers don't see a lot of value,
rightly or wrongly....

-Ekr


On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

> Eric:
>
>
>
> BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and LDP =
=E2=80=93
> but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of these
> protocols on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP started, but
> we did not.
>
>
>
> Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the DC pr=
oviders
> say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one administration=E2=80=9D.  Another=
 problem is on private
> lines.    We should chat about the networks each of these protocols are
> actually deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to encourage
> adoption, I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really mea=
n anything
> if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.
>
>
>
> Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to
> getting people to TCP-AO.
>
>
>
> Sue
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
> *To:* Uma Chunduri
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
> I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have TCP-A=
O
> then presumably they have SHA-1.
>
>
>
> But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this case,
> so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
>
>
> *To:* Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> In-line [Uma1]:
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
> *To:* Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security is
> analyzed from all aspects.
>
>
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>
>
>
> --
>
> Uma C.
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <
> rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org=
>
> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>
>
> Hi Stewart
>
>
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
>
>
> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>
>
>
> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>
> - It uses weak algorithms
>
> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>
>
>
> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedie=
s
> the algorithm
>
> Issue
>
>
>
> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>
>
>
> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on th=
e
> key
>
> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
> either of these
>
> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>
>
>
> [Uma]: True.
>
>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back
> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP,
> MSDP ..).
>
>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-A=
O
> MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) - https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/
> draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>
>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Joe pu=
t
> together https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-
> ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt
>
>            Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP W=
G (not
> fully sure the reasons on why).
>
>
>
> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kinda
> didn't progress much.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to
> get better any time soon.
>
>
>
> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
> "SHA-256", with
>
> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>
>
>
> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in th=
e
> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>
>
>
> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
>
>
>
> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
>
> 1.       *Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course):* Use TCP-AO
> (instead of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 s=
o the
> =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
>
> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256
> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one
> way from existing stuff or even  #1.
>
> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, just
> with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as I
> know.
>
> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
>
>                  But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one MUST
> implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually work
>  (especially - **if** #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
>
>                  Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do negotiatio=
n
> through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> 3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get all we=
 wanted=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not **mostly**
> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and =
#3
> for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a hug=
e
> improvement.
>
> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
> opportunistic.  That said,
>
> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
> after connection
>
> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>
> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
> PALS WG Chairs.
>
> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet
> current security requirements.
>
> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>
> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>
> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to b=
e
> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
> option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example)
> could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined
> and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message
> digest techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is
> specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
> straightforward."
>
> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5
> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach t=
o
> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is current=
ly
> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified.
> We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations
> will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>
> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC
> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>
> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure
> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP M=
D5
> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD
> mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
> unavailable."
>
> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we
> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In
> the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as =
a
> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to iss=
ue
> a further update requiring its use.
>
> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>
> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can
> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which
> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantl=
y
> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
> another.
>
> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need
> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help
> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).
>
> Best regards
>
> The MPLS WG Chairs
> The PALS WG Chairs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Yeah, I agree. I don&#39;t really have any good ideas how =
to get people to do AO. Based on comments I&#39;ve heard, providers don&#39=
;t see a lot of value, rightly or wrongly....<div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div>=
<div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:shares@ndzh.com" target=3D"_blank">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"bl=
ue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_3699366348160519146WordSection1"><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Eric: <u></u><u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">BGP and LDP would =
be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and LDP =E2=80=93 but there =
are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of these protocols on many =
networks.=C2=A0 I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP started, but we did not. <u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f49=
7d">Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the DC =
providers say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one administration=E2=80=9D.=
=C2=A0 Another problem is on private lines.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0We should cha=
t about the networks each of these protocols are actually deployed on.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0If you have any insight on a way to encourage adoption, I=E2=80=
=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really mean anything if provi=
ders and Data Centers do not adopt it. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Going from SHA-1 to SHA-=
256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to getting people to TCP-AO. =C2=
=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:=
#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:#1f497d">Sue <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:m=
pls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Be=
half Of </b>Eric Rescorla<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a=
>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</a>; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;</span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP S=
ecurity<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t =
understand what you&#39;re getting at here. Yes, if people have TCP-AO then=
 presumably they have SHA-1.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">But now we&#39;re =
talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this case, so we should tr=
y to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.<u></u><u></u></p><div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 P=
M, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> Eric Resc=
orla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com=
</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM</span><u></u><u=
></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@hu=
awei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart=
.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@tools.=
ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg=
-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [=
mpls] LDP Security<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left=
:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top=
:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><a name=3D"m_3699366348160519146_m_4487282337973396343_m_920139299660455=
3"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">In-line [Uma1]:</span><u></u><u></u></a></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">--</span><u></u><u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Uma C.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"> Eric Rescorla [mailto:</span><a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">ekr@rtfm.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">] <br><b>Sent:=
</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> Uma Chunduri &lt;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Stew=
art Bryant &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</span></a><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;;=
 </span><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">mpl=
s@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">; </span><a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@to=
ols.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</sp=
an></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;">; &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">rtg-ads@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &lt;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">rt=
g-ads@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;; </span><a href=3D"mailto:mpls-c=
hairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</span><=
/a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;">; </span><a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;">pals@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">; &lt;</span><a href=3D"=
mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">sec-ads@ietf.org</s=
pan></a><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt; &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">sec-ads@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&gt;</=
span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><b>Subject:</b>=
 Re: [mpls] LDP Security<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-=
left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin=
-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I would note </span><a h=
ref=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>rfc6952</span></a><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f4=
97d"> - where LDP security is analyzed from all aspects. </span><u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Eric,</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Q=
uick comments below [Uma]:</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">--</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Uma C.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [ma=
ilto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric Rescorla<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday=
, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM<br><b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpl=
s@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpl=
s-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"m=
ailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<b=
r><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Stewa=
rt<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<u></u><u></u></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like you=
rs.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major re=
spects:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It uses weak a=
lgorithms<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It has a bad=
 negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)<u></u><u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so =
remedies the algorithm<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=
ssue<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497=
d">[Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">but not the key management issue [0]. We h=
aven&#39;t made much progress on the key<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to be a major impediment =
to deploying either of these<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">technologies (which I am given to understand don&#39;t see a lot of us=
e). <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497=
d">[Uma]: True. </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0But I would indicate some effort done few =
years back regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, L=
DP, PCEP, MSDP ..). </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0One such proposal is by extending IKEv2=
 to negotiate TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey &amp; algo. agility) - </sp=
an><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05</a>=
=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me &amp; Joe =
put together </span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chundu=
ri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.=
org/archive/<wbr>id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-<wbr>ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt=
</a> <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Note the =
above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP WG (not fully sure the =
reasons on why).</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquo=
te><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression=
 was it kinda didn&#39;t progress much.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color=
:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:=
none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:=
4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">We should probably<span style=3D"color:#1f497d=
"> </span>talk in Singapore about that, but that&#39;s not going to get bet=
ter any time soon.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;colo=
r:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and &quot;TBD&quot; shoul=
d read &quot;SHA-256&quot;, with<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<u></u><u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Uma]: While the l=
ist can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in the mandatory list in =
RFC 5926 for MAC.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><=
div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Generally we&#39;re trying to move awa=
y from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Uma1]: Couple of things:</span><=
u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"m_3699366348160519146m4487282337973396343m9201=
392996604553140msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:58.5pt"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Noth=
ing to be done (from spec pov of course):</span></b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f49=
7d"> Use TCP-AO (instead of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KD=
Fs =E2=80=93 so the =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in Stewart suggesting below is al=
ready there. </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"m_3699366348160519146m448=
7282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:=
58.5pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;=
color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;colo=
r:#1f497d">As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256 a=
nd live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one way=
 from existing stuff or even =C2=A0#1.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div><div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure why you say &quot;no algorithm agility&quot;. =
You&#39;d be using AO, just with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC=
 is still fine as far as I know.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">[Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use =
AO; </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f49=
7d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0But then =C2=A0I am not getting how we can=
 mandate one MUST implement algorithm as suggested below TBD=C2=A0 would ac=
tually work =C2=A0(especially - *<b>if</b>* #1 is already deployed somewher=
e?)=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Perhaps staying with #1 is the=
 best bet or do negotiation through #3, with already mandated and additiona=
l stuff.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u=
></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1=
.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"m_36=
99366348160519146m4487282337973396343m9201392996604553140msolistparagraph" =
style=3D"margin-left:58.5pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">3.</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </=
span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoreticall=
y=E2=80=9D get all we wanted=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&=
quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">We have been here multiple time=
s; because #1 itself is not *<b>mostly</b>* deployed (neither in BGP nor in=
 LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and #3 for practical deployments. But=
 still it may be good to do #2 any ways.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:sol=
id #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0=
pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this=
 is not a huge improvement.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it&#39;s unauthenticated but=
 opportunistic.=C2=A0 That said,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the =
link after connection<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">se=
tup and doesn&#39;t require configuration.<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stew=
art.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #c=
ccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;ma=
rgin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12.0pt">To the SEC and RTG ADs,<br><br>I am sending the following me=
ssage on behalf of the MPLS and the<br>PALS WG Chairs.<br><br>There is a co=
ncern shared among the security community and the working groups that devel=
op the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately secured. LDP currently=
 relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its messages, but MD5 is a has=
h function that is no longer considered to meet current security requiremen=
ts.<br><br>In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List elemen=
t 2. Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:=
<br><br>&quot;LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide =
for the authenticity and integrity of session messages.<br><br>&quot;[RFC23=
85] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to be too wea=
k for this application.=C2=A0 It also points out that a similar TCP option =
with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could be d=
eployed.=C2=A0 To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and de=
ployed.=C2=A0 However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message digest=
 techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and =
implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively straightforward.&q=
uot;<br><br>We note that BGP has already been through this process, and rep=
laced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same ap=
proach to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is=
 currently no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function s=
pecified. We are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implemen=
tations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward<br><=
br>We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC =
7454 that contains the following requirement:<br><br>&quot;Implementations =
conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions car=
rying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP MD5 Signature Option. F=
urthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be implemented and provide=
d to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred opti=
on, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is unavailable.&quot;<br><br>We are=
 not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP security n=
egotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we need to incl=
ude a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the absence of=
 a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a configuration =
process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is complete. On co=
mpletion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue a further upda=
te requiring its use.<br><br>Additionally we should note that no cryptograp=
hic mechanism has an indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should no=
te the IETF anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over t=
ime.<br><br>The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such t=
hat it can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, a=
nd which will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the=
 convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly=
 impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open anoth=
er.<br><br>As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, =
we=C2=A0 need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approac=
h, and help correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our m=
isunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the recom=
mendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).<br><br>=
Best regards<br><br>The MPLS WG Chairs<br>The PALS WG Chairs<u></u><u></u><=
/p></blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
</div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>=
</div><br></div>

--001a114d9a28c9a6e2055d918dba--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 15:09:08 -0500
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>, mpls@ietf.org,  pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>,  mpls-chairs <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, pals@ietf.org,  "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/PS7zDb_ZBj_Gf-1hc1gQxkul36s>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I agree. I don't really have any good ideas how to get people to do
> AO. Based on comments I've heard, providers don't see a lot of value,
> rightly or wrongly....

I know Alia has been talking about a possible Linux implementation to
drive the way.  I agree with EKR on other points and have been
following along.

Best,
Kathleen
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>>
>>
>> BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and LDP=
 =E2=80=93
>> but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of these proto=
cols
>> on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP started, but we did n=
ot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the DC p=
roviders
>> say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one administration=E2=80=9D.  Anothe=
r problem is on private
>> lines.    We should chat about the networks each of these protocols are
>> actually deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to encourage
>> adoption, I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really me=
an anything
>> if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to
>> getting people to TCP-AO.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sue
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
>> To: Uma Chunduri
>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have TCP-=
AO
>> then presumably they have SHA-1.
>>
>>
>>
>> But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this case=
,
>> so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
>>
>>
>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.or=
g>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> In-line [Uma1]:
>>
>> --
>>
>> Uma C.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.or=
g>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Stewart,
>>
>>
>>
>> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security is
>> analyzed from all aspects.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric,
>>
>>
>>
>> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Uma C.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
>> To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
>> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.o=
rg>
>> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Stewart
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your note.
>>
>>
>>
>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>>
>>
>>
>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>>
>> - It uses weak algorithms
>>
>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>>
>>
>>
>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedi=
es
>> the algorithm
>>
>> Issue
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>>
>>
>>
>> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on t=
he
>> key
>>
>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
>> either of these
>>
>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma]: True.
>>
>>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back
>> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP=
,
>> MSDP ..).
>>
>>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-=
AO
>> MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) -
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>>
>>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Joe p=
ut
>> together
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp=
-ao-06.txt
>>
>>            Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KARP =
WG (not
>> fully sure the reasons on why).
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kind=
a
>> didn't progress much.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to
>> get better any time soon.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
>> "SHA-256", with
>>
>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in t=
he
>> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
>>
>> 1.       Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): Use TCP-AO (inste=
ad
>> of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so the =
=E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in
>> Stewart suggesting below is already there.
>>
>> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256
>> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one=
 way
>> from existing stuff or even  #1.
>>
>> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, just
>> with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as =
I
>> know.
>>
>> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
>>
>>                  But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one MUST
>> implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually work  (especi=
ally
>> - *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
>>
>>                  Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do negotiati=
on
>> through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>> 3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get all w=
e wanted=E2=80=A6.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly*
>> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and=
 #3
>> for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a hu=
ge
>> improvement.
>>
>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
>> opportunistic.  That said,
>>
>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
>> after connection
>>
>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>
>> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>> PALS WG Chairs.
>>
>> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
>> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
>> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
>> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to mee=
t
>> current security requirements.
>>
>> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
>> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>>
>> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
>> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>>
>> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to =
be
>> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP op=
tion
>> with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could b=
e
>> deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and
>> deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message digest
>> techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified an=
d
>> implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively straightforward=
."
>>
>> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5
>> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach =
to
>> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is curren=
tly
>> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified=
. We
>> are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations wi=
ll
>> simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>>
>> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC
>> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>>
>> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure
>> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP =
MD5
>> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
>> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mecha=
nism
>> is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
>> unavailable."
>>
>> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
>> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we
>> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In=
 the
>> absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a
>> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work i=
s
>> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to is=
sue
>> a further update requiring its use.
>>
>> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
>> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
>> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>>
>> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it ca=
n
>> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which
>> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
>> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significant=
ly
>> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
>> another.
>>
>> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need
>> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help
>> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
>> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
>> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> The MPLS WG Chairs
>> The PALS WG Chairs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Thu Nov  9 15:02:15 2017
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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: mpls@ietf.org, pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, mpls-chairs <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, pals@ietf.org, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
References: <2da71163-cf29-cba6-df61-d75a2cfc9c43@gmail.com> <02a50f02-779e-bc39-505c-5a51d066b3f0@pi.nu> <CAA=duU1qV-LiU5pR7VtLLVGtb-8nZHrnUqVyOKpST3-6Dr-Xgw@mail.gmail.com> <ce2c75b6-156d-da80-91d7-b7e6ba2059a0@gmail.com> <CAA=duU1xvV0genbR0CBx2rmpOWUkFmRJX3qrMEp21gTd1HOVww@mail.gmail.com> <f0d553da-0ac4-e794-5cd5-d9cc95063dc6@pi.nu> <15335748-e900-280d-554f-24c55c0f3ba5@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOr5x=98nXeBCT8O-wjk90ga1F3EVk2ktMYoAj9Q8tRkg@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBO6msQuxGLtWp4HDQAGtubOp-33Gt+uip5P3y2-icnRqg@mail.gmail.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854135191D6@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <CABcZeBPK=ze90qa1qzMsUMVN_=5Pf85Nv6uanEvsV5nVR4v0HA@mail.gmail.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685413519209@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <CABcZeBO56DrS9EAUJ2WwD3ucR9+HvDem3AQVVe_CzY55TgXkQQ@mail.gmail.com> <002101d35919$c6295b90$527c12b0$@ndzh.com> <CABcZeBMqYCaq_g+dP_Q4rFjQgS_oG+iYtDg=qp1e9Rc4yZ9U9A@mail.gmail.com> <CAHbuEH4mewYdnuOvxRhfgsBBmf+goZt-iwdAge8GeLAcEBB9Fw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b8e4f56f-c49b-23b3-72c2-58dbd1de3188@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 23:02:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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Another data point is that for a long time operators only turned on MD5 
for the
link state protocols to get a better checksum, not because they perceived
a threat.

There is security at different levels, for example MACsec, which has the 
advantage
of securing the customer traffic from pervasive monitoring as well as 
securing the
routing layer. Additionally it is common for customer traffic gets put 
straight
into MPLS and so cannot be used as an attack vector.

- Stewart


On 09/11/2017 20:09, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>> Yeah, I agree. I don't really have any good ideas how to get people to do
>> AO. Based on comments I've heard, providers don't see a lot of value,
>> rightly or wrongly....
> I know Alia has been talking about a possible Linux implementation to
> drive the way.  I agree with EKR on other points and have been
> following along.
>
> Best,
> Kathleen
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>>> Eric:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and LDP –
>>> but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of these protocols
>>> on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP started, but we did not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers – where the DC providers
>>> say “It’s all under one administration”.  Another problem is on private
>>> lines.    We should chat about the networks each of these protocols are
>>> actually deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to encourage
>>> adoption, I’d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really mean anything
>>> if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to
>>> getting people to TCP-AO.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
>>> To: Uma Chunduri
>>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have TCP-AO
>>> then presumably they have SHA-1.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this case,
>>> so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
>>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> In-line [Uma1]:
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Uma C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
>>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
>>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Stewart,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security is
>>> analyzed from all aspects.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Uma C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
>>> To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
>>> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Stewart
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your note.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>>>
>>> - It uses weak algorithms
>>>
>>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies
>>> the algorithm
>>>
>>> Issue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on the
>>> key
>>>
>>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
>>> either of these
>>>
>>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Uma]: True.
>>>
>>>                 But I would indicate some effort done few years back
>>> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP,
>>> MSDP ..).
>>>
>>>                 One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-AO
>>> MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) -
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>>>
>>>                 This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Joe put
>>> together
>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt
>>>
>>>             Note the above didn’t progress in the concluded KARP WG (not
>>> fully sure the reasons on why).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kinda
>>> didn't progress much.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to
>>> get better any time soon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
>>> "SHA-256", with
>>>
>>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn’t see SHA256 in the
>>> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
>>>
>>> 1.       Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): Use TCP-AO (instead
>>> of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs – so the ‘TBD’ in
>>> Stewart suggesting below is already there.
>>>
>>> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-256
>>> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one way
>>> from existing stuff or even  #1.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, just
>>> with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as I
>>> know.
>>>
>>> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
>>>
>>>                   But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one MUST
>>> implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually work  (especially
>>> - *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
>>>
>>>                   Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do negotiation
>>> through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 3.       Do key management and “theoretically” get all we wanted….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly*
>>> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and #3
>>> for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a huge
>>> improvement.
>>>
>>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
>>> opportunistic.  That said,
>>>
>>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
>>> after connection
>>>
>>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>>
>>> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>>> PALS WG Chairs.
>>>
>>> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
>>> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
>>> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
>>> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet
>>> current security requirements.
>>>
>>> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
>>> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>>>
>>> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
>>> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>>>
>>> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to be
>>> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP option
>>> with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could be
>>> deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and
>>> deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message digest
>>> techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and
>>> implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively straightforward."
>>>
>>> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5
>>> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to
>>> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently
>>> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified. We
>>> are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations will
>>> simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>>>
>>> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC
>>> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>>>
>>> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure
>>> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP MD5
>>> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
>>> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism
>>> is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
>>> unavailable."
>>>
>>> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
>>> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we
>>> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the
>>> absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a
>>> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
>>> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue
>>> a further update requiring its use.
>>>
>>> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
>>> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
>>> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>>>
>>> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can
>>> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which
>>> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
>>> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly
>>> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
>>> another.
>>>
>>> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need
>>> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help
>>> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
>>> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
>>> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> The MPLS WG Chairs
>>> The PALS WG Chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 23:15:25 -0800
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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, mpls@ietf.org,  pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>,  mpls-chairs <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, pals@ietf.org,  "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Another data point is that for a long time operators only turned on MD5
> for the
> link state protocols to get a better checksum, not because they perceived
> a threat.
>

FWIW, I agree that MD5 is a fine checksum.

-Ekr


>
> There is security at different levels, for example MACsec, which has the
> advantage
> of securing the customer traffic from pervasive monitoring as well as
> securing the
> routing layer. Additionally it is common for customer traffic gets put
> straight
> into MPLS and so cannot be used as an attack vector.
>
> - Stewart
>
>
>
> On 09/11/2017 20:09, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I agree. I don't really have any good ideas how to get people to =
do
>>> AO. Based on comments I've heard, providers don't see a lot of value,
>>> rightly or wrongly....
>>>
>> I know Alia has been talking about a possible Linux implementation to
>> drive the way.  I agree with EKR on other points and have been
>> following along.
>>
>> Best,
>> Kathleen
>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Eric:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and
>>>> LDP =E2=80=93
>>>> but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of these
>>>> protocols
>>>> on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP started, but we did
>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the DC=
 providers
>>>> say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one administration=E2=80=9D.  Anot=
her problem is on private
>>>> lines.    We should chat about the networks each of these protocols ar=
e
>>>> actually deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to encourage
>>>> adoption, I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really =
mean
>>>> anything
>>>> if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to
>>>> getting people to TCP-AO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
>>>> To: Uma Chunduri
>>>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>>>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have
>>>> TCP-AO
>>>> then presumably they have SHA-1.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this
>>>> case,
>>>> so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Ekr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
>>>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>>>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <
>>>> sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In-line [Uma1]:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Uma C.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
>>>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>>>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;
>>>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;
>>>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <
>>>> sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com=
>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Stewart,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security
>>>> is
>>>> analyzed from all aspects.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eric,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Uma C.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
>>>> To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
>>>> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <
>>>> sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>>> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Stewart
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your note.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>>>>
>>>> - It uses weak algorithms
>>>>
>>>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so
>>>> remedies
>>>> the algorithm
>>>>
>>>> Issue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on
>>>> the
>>>> key
>>>>
>>>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
>>>> either of these
>>>>
>>>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Uma]: True.
>>>>
>>>>                 But I would indicate some effort done few years back
>>>> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP,
>>>> PCEP,
>>>> MSDP ..).
>>>>
>>>>                 One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate
>>>> TCP-AO
>>>> MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) -
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>>>>
>>>>                 This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me & Jo=
e
>>>> put
>>>> together
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ik
>>>> ev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt
>>>>
>>>>             Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded KA=
RP WG (not
>>>> fully sure the reasons on why).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it
>>>> kinda
>>>> didn't progress much.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going =
to
>>>> get better any time soon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
>>>> "SHA-256", with
>>>>
>>>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in=
 the
>>>> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
>>>>
>>>> 1.       Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): Use TCP-AO
>>>> (instead
>>>> of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so the =
=E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in
>>>> Stewart suggesting below is already there.
>>>>
>>>> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do SHA-25=
6
>>>> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in
>>>> one way
>>>> from existing stuff or even  #1.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, ju=
st
>>>> with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far a=
s
>>>> I
>>>> know.
>>>>
>>>> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
>>>>
>>>>                   But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one MU=
ST
>>>> implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually work
>>>> (especially
>>>> - *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
>>>>
>>>>                   Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do
>>>> negotiation
>>>> through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Ekr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get all=
 we wanted=E2=80=A6.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly*
>>>> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2
>>>> and #3
>>>> for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Ekr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Ekr
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a
>>>> huge
>>>> improvement.
>>>>
>>>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
>>>> opportunistic.  That said,
>>>>
>>>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
>>>> after connection
>>>>
>>>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <
>>>> stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>>>
>>>> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>>>> PALS WG Chairs.
>>>>
>>>> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working
>>>> groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately
>>>> secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its
>>>> messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to
>>>> meet
>>>> current security requirements.
>>>>
>>>> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
>>>> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>>>>
>>>> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the
>>>> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>>>>
>>>> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some t=
o
>>>> be
>>>> too weak for this application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
>>>> option
>>>> with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could
>>>> be
>>>> deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and
>>>> deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message dige=
st
>>>> techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified
>>>> and
>>>> implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
>>>> straightforward."
>>>>
>>>> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced M=
D5
>>>> with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approac=
h
>>>> to
>>>> secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is
>>>> currently
>>>> no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function
>>>> specified. We
>>>> are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations
>>>> will
>>>> simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>>>>
>>>> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RF=
C
>>>> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>>>>
>>>> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secur=
e
>>>> the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TC=
P
>>>> MD5
>>>> Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be
>>>> implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD
>>>> mechanism
>>>> is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
>>>> unavailable."
>>>>
>>>> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP
>>>> security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then =
we
>>>> need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required.
>>>> In the
>>>> absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a
>>>> configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work
>>>> is
>>>> complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to
>>>> issue
>>>> a further update requiring its use.
>>>>
>>>> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
>>>> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
>>>> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>>>>
>>>> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it
>>>> can
>>>> reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and whi=
ch
>>>> will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the
>>>> convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not
>>>> significantly
>>>> impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open
>>>> another.
>>>>
>>>> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  ne=
ed
>>>> to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and he=
lp
>>>> correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
>>>> misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the
>>>> recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text=
).
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> The MPLS WG Chairs
>>>> The PALS WG Chairs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Stewart Bryant <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Another =
data point is that for a long time operators only turned on MD5 for the<br>
link state protocols to get a better checksum, not because they perceived<b=
r>
a threat.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>FWIW, I agree that MD5 is a f=
ine checksum.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
There is security at different levels, for example MACsec, which has the ad=
vantage<br>
of securing the customer traffic from pervasive monitoring as well as secur=
ing the<br>
routing layer. Additionally it is common for customer traffic gets put stra=
ight<br>
into MPLS and so cannot be used as an attack vector.<span class=3D"HOEnZb">=
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
- Stewart</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/11/2017 20:09, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtf=
m.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Yeah, I agree. I don&#39;t really have any good ideas how to get people to =
do<br>
AO. Based on comments I&#39;ve heard, providers don&#39;t see a lot of valu=
e,<br>
rightly or wrongly....<br>
</blockquote>
I know Alia has been talking about a possible Linux implementation to<br>
drive the way.=C2=A0 I agree with EKR on other points and have been<br>
following along.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Kathleen<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shares@nd=
zh.com" target=3D"_blank">shares@ndzh.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Eric:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and LDP =
=E2=80=93<br>
but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of these protocol=
s<br>
on many networks.=C2=A0 I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP started, but we did=
 not.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the DC prov=
iders<br>
say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one administration=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 Anot=
her problem is on private<br>
lines.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We should chat about the networks each of these protoco=
ls are<br>
actually deployed on.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If you have any insight on a way to encou=
rage<br>
adoption, I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really mean =
anything<br>
if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to<br>
getting people to TCP-AO.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Sue<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM<br>
To: Uma Chunduri<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <=
a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@=
tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</=
a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t understand what you&#39;re getting at here. Yes, if people have=
 TCP-AO<br>
then presumably they have SHA-1.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
But now we&#39;re talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this cas=
e,<br>
so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require AO.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chun=
duri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM<br>
<br>
<br>
To: Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_=
blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>;<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs=
@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</=
a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.=
org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-a=
ds@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chun=
duri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
In-line [Uma1]:<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Uma C.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM<br>
To: Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chunduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_=
blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>;<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs=
@tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.=
org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@ietf.org</=
a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.=
org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-a=
ds@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:uma.chu=
nduri@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">uma.chunduri@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi Stewart,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I would note <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rf<wbr>c6952</a> - where=
 LDP security is<br>
analyzed from all aspects.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Eric,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Quick comments below [Uma]:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
Uma C.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla<br>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM<br>
To: Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <=
a href=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals-chairs@=
tools.ietf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">rtg-ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rtg-ads@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-cha=
irs@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">pals@i=
etf.org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-=
ads@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sec-ads@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Stewart<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks for your note.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:<br>
<br>
- It uses weak algorithms<br>
<br>
- It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies<=
br>
the algorithm<br>
<br>
Issue<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
but not the key management issue [0]. We haven&#39;t made much progress on =
the<br>
key<br>
<br>
management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying<br>
either of these<br>
<br>
technologies (which I am given to understand don&#39;t see a lot of use).<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Uma]: True.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 But I would indicat=
e some effort done few years back<br>
regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, PCEP,<b=
r>
MSDP ..).<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 One such proposal i=
s by extending IKEv2 to negotiate TCP-AO<br>
MKTs (which can give rekey &amp; algo. agility) -<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-mahesh-k=
arp-rkmp-05</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This also requires =
some more work with TCP-AO; me &amp; Joe put<br>
together<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-=
with-tcp-ao-06.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/archive/i<wbr>d/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ik<wbr>ev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt<=
/a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Note the above didn=E2=80=99t pro=
gress in the concluded KARP WG (not<br>
fully sure the reasons on why).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it kinda<b=
r>
didn&#39;t progress much.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that&#39;s not going t=
o<br>
get better any time soon.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and &quot;TBD&quot; should=
 read<br>
&quot;SHA-256&quot;, with<br>
<br>
the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 in the<=
br>
mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Generally we&#39;re trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[Uma1]: Couple of things:<br>
<br>
1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): =
Use TCP-AO (instead<br>
of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so the =E2=
=80=98TBD=E2=80=99 in<br>
Stewart suggesting below is already there.<br>
<br>
2.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As #1 too is not good enough from your above n=
ote - do SHA-256<br>
and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in one wa=
y<br>
from existing stuff or even=C2=A0 #1.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m not sure why you say &quot;no algorithm agility&quot;. You&#39;d be=
 using AO, just<br>
with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as far as I<b=
r>
know.<br>
<br>
[Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 But then=C2=
=A0 I am not getting how we can mandate one MUST<br>
implement algorithm as suggested below TBD=C2=A0 would actually work=C2=A0 =
(especially<br>
- *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps stay=
ing with #1 is the best bet or do negotiation<br>
through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
3.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=
=E2=80=9D get all we wanted=E2=80=A6.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly*<br>
deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2 and #3=
<br>
for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 any ways.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
[0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a huge<=
br>
improvement.<br>
<br>
[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it&#39;s unauthenticated but<br>
opportunistic.=C2=A0 That said,<br>
<br>
it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link<br>
after connection<br>
<br>
setup and doesn&#39;t require configuration.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewar=
t.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
To the SEC and RTG ADs,<br>
<br>
I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the<br>
PALS WG Chairs.<br>
<br>
There is a concern shared among the security community and the working<br>
groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately<br>
secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its<br>
messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet<b=
r>
current security requirements.<br>
<br>
In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.<br>
Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:<br>
<br>
&quot;LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the<=
br>
authenticity and integrity of session messages.<br>
<br>
&quot;[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some t=
o be<br>
too weak for this application.=C2=A0 It also points out that a similar TCP =
option<br>
with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could be<b=
r>
deployed.=C2=A0 To our knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and<b=
r>
deployed.=C2=A0 However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP message dige=
st<br>
techniques are available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and<b=
r>
implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively straightforward.&q=
uot;<br>
<br>
We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5<br=
>
with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to<=
br>
secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently=
<br>
no recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified. W=
e<br>
are concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations will<=
br>
simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward<br>
<br>
We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC<br>
7454 that contains the following requirement:<br>
<br>
&quot;Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secur=
e<br>
the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP MD5=
<br>
Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be<br>
implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanis=
m<br>
is the preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is<br>
unavailable.&quot;<br>
<br>
We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP<br>
security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we<br=
>
need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In th=
e<br>
absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a<br>
configuration process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is<b=
r>
complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue=
<br>
a further update requiring its use.<br>
<br>
Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an<br>
indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF<br>
anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.<br>
<br>
The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can<b=
r>
reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which<br=
>
will provide adequate security without significantly degrading the<br>
convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly<=
br>
impact router convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open<br>
another.<br>
<br>
As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we=C2=A0 ne=
ed<br>
to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help<br=
>
correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our<br>
misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also need the<br>
recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the above text).<br=
>
<br>
Best regards<br>
<br>
The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
The PALS WG Chairs<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1142d0d4b121a5055d9bb133--


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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 16:21:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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To: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm]  LDP Security
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Hi, all,

I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to
include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be extensible.

I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on
extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters and
keys, but it stalled twice:

M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U. Chunduri,
A. Tian, J. Touch, “Negotiation for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in
IKEv2 <http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt>,”
(RFC in progress), Nov. 2013.

U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO
<http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt>,”
(RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.

AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues with its
use outside routing environments where keys are already considered
sufficiently managed.

However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no
implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a new
solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be a
significant waste of time.

Joe


On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:
>
> +TCPM
>
>  
>
> Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak up
> at the upcoming TCPM meeting.
>
>  
>
> The addition of SHA-256 has been discussed in TCPM already (see
> draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not much energy and no
> interest from potential TCP-AO implementers or users.
>
>  
>
> Michael
>
> (TCPM co-chair)
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM
> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org;
> <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>  
>
> Hi Stewart
>
>  
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
>  
>
> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>
>  
>
> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>
> - It uses weak algorithms
>
> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>
>  
>
> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so
> remedies the algorithm
>
> issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much
> progress on the key
>
> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
> either of these
>
> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
> We should probably
>
> talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to get better any
> time soon.
>
>  
>
> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
> "SHA-256", with
>
> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>
>  
>
> -Ekr
>
>  
>
>  
>
> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a
> huge improvement.
>
> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
> opportunistic.  That said,
>
> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
> after connection
>
> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>
>  
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant
> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>
>     I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>     PALS WG Chairs.
>
>     There is a concern shared among the security community and the
>     working groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer
>     adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic
>     security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no
>     longer considered to meet current security requirements.
>
>     In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element
>     2. Session communication carried by TCP the following statements
>     is made:
>
>     "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for
>     the authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>
>     "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by
>     some to be too weak for this application.  It also points out that
>     a similar TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
>     SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such
>     TCP option has been defined and deployed.  However, we note that
>     LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available,
>     and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented,
>     upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively straightforward."
>
>     We note that BGP has already been through this process, and
>     replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow
>     the same approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to
>     ascertain, there is currently no recommended, mandatory to
>     implement, cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that
>     without such a mandatory function, implementations will simply
>     fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>
>     We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar
>     to RFC 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>
>     "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to
>     secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently
>     required TCP MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD
>     cryptographic mechanism must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO
>     to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option,
>     and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is unavailable."
>
>     We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that
>     TCP security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are
>     wrong, then we need to include a requirement that such negotiation
>     is also required. In the absence of a negotiation protocol,
>     however, we need to leave this as a configuration process until
>     such time as the negotiation protocol work is complete. On
>     completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue a
>     further update requiring its use.
>
>     Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
>     indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
>     anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>
>     The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that
>     it can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route
>     processor, and which will provide adequate security without
>     significantly degrading the convergence time of an LSR. Without a
>     function that does not significantly impact router convergence we
>     simply close one vulnerability and open another.
>
>     As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms,
>     we  need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed
>     approach, and help correcting any misunderstanding of the security
>     issues or our misunderstanding of the existing security
>     mechanisms. We also need the recommendations of a suitable
>     security function (TBD in the above text).
>
>     Best regards
>
>     The MPLS WG Chairs
>     The PALS WG Chairs
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


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    <p>Hi, all,</p>
    <p>I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to
      include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be
      extensible.</p>
    <p>I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on
      extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters
      and keys, but it stalled twice:</p>
    <p>M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U.
      Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
        href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt">Negotiation
        for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in IKEv2</a>,” (RFC in
      progress), Nov. 2013.</p>
    <p>U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt">Using
        IKEv2 with TCP-AO</a>,” (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.</p>
    <p>AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues
      with its use outside routing environments where keys are already
      considered sufficiently managed.</p>
    <p>However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no
      implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a
      new solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be
      a significant waste of time.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Joe<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael
      (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText">+TCPM <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO
          on the TCPM list, or speak up at the upcoming TCPM meeting.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">The addition of SHA-256 has been
          discussed in TCPM already (see draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but
          so far there was not much energy and no interest from
          potential TCP-AO implementers or users.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">(TCPM co-chair)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
                </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">pals@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play
                is, I think much like yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major
                respects:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">- It has a bad negotiation/setuop
                story (manual key management)<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in
                replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies the algorithm<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">issue but not the key management
                issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on the key<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to
                be a major impediment to deploying either of these<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">technologies (which I am given to
                understand don't see a lot of use). We should probably<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">talk in Singapore about that, but
                that's not going to get better any time soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the text you
                have is OK, and "TBD" should read "SHA-256", with<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt;
                SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support
                for rollover, but this is not a huge improvement.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal
                here as it's unauthenticated but opportunistic.  That
                said,<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">it would provide defense against
                attackers who gain access to the link after connection<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">setup and doesn't require
                configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM,
                Stewart Bryant &lt;<a
                  href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the
                  SEC and RTG ADs,<br>
                  <br>
                  I am sending the following message on behalf of the
                  MPLS and the<br>
                  PALS WG Chairs.<br>
                  <br>
                  There is a concern shared among the security community
                  and the working groups that develop the LDP protocol
                  that LDP is no longer adequately secured. LDP
                  currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of
                  its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no
                  longer considered to meet current security
                  requirements.<br>
                  <br>
                  In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) ,
                  List element 2. Session communication carried by TCP
                  the following statements is made:<br>
                  <br>
                  "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to
                  provide for the authenticity and integrity of session
                  messages.<br>
                  <br>
                  "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now
                  considered by some to be too weak for this
                  application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
                  option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
                  SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our
                  knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and
                  deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever
                  TCP message digest techniques are available, and when
                  one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented,
                  upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
                  straightforward."<br>
                  <br>
                  We note that BGP has already been through this
                  process, and replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I
                  would be logical to follow the same approach to secure
                  LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain,
                  there is currently no recommended, mandatory to
                  implement, cryptographic function specified. We are
                  concerned that without such a mandatory function,
                  implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we
                  will be no further forward<br>
                  <br>
                  We think that the best way forward is to publish a
                  draft similar to RFC 7454 that contains the following
                  requirement:<br>
                  <br>
                  "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement
                  TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in
                  addition to the currently required TCP MD5 Signature
                  Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism
                  must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure
                  LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred
                  option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
                  unavailable."<br>
                  <br>
                  We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but
                  it seems that TCP security negotiation is still work
                  in progress. If we are wrong, then we need to include
                  a requirement that such negotiation is also required.
                  In the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we
                  need to leave this as a configuration process until
                  such time as the negotiation protocol work is
                  complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation
                  protocol we need to issue a further update requiring
                  its use.<br>
                  <br>
                  Additionally we should note that no cryptographic
                  mechanism has an indefinite lifetime, and that
                  implementation should note the IETF anticipates
                  updating the default cryptographic mechanism over
                  time.<br>
                  <br>
                  The TBD default security function will need to be
                  chosen such that it can reasonably be implemented on a
                  typical router route processor, and which will provide
                  adequate security without significantly degrading the
                  convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that
                  does not significantly impact router convergence we
                  simply close one vulnerability and open another.<br>
                  <br>
                  As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security
                  mechanisms, we  need to ask the security area for a
                  review of our proposed approach, and help correcting
                  any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
                  misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms.
                  We also need the recommendations of a suitable
                  security function (TBD in the above text).<br>
                  <br>
                  Best regards<br>
                  <br>
                  The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
                  The PALS WG Chairs<br>
                  <br>
                  <o:p></o:p></p>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
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</pre>
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From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
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In-Reply-To: <4f634e7c-f3b9-f0ab-abc7-80ec1062b52a@strayalpha.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:11:57 +0800
Cc: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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References: <2da71163-cf29-cba6-df61-d75a2cfc9c43@gmail.com> <5994f353-5306-0fa8-2d2d-024ebdbb10df@gmail.com> <CAA=duU2YLjSg8Q5PDT+u9cxn9u2xsiPu-imBJrnyL3bfkQFW7A@mail.gmail.com> <7ee4fd77-7d8d-0db2-527e-9cf91d87e634@gmail.com> <CAA=duU3nJsS86udidgkH9jhB9ZD+xaRa2A4MniAVL1BpGE78ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <cf0cb5a4-cc21-97e1-1c26-38974bf9c0be@pi.nu> <51b9e5b4-0a44-1449-a4df-91e4f9df5d6b@pi.nu> <CAA=duU2R9kBMWnRdwPPO49LF1Jc1tyrxvwkyTgaE6SC6jsVruw@mail.gmail.com> <02a50f02-779e-bc39-505c-5a51d066b3f0@pi.nu> <CAA=duU1qV-LiU5pR7VtLLVGtb-8nZHrnUqVyOKpST3-6Dr-Xgw@mail.gmail.com> <ce2c75b6-156d-da80-91d7-b7e6ba2059a0@gmail.com> <CAA=duU1xvV0genbR0CBx2rmpOWUkFmRJX3qrMEp21gTd1HOVww@mail.gmail.com> <f0d553da-0ac4-e794-5cd5-d9cc95063dc6@pi.nu> <15335748-e900-280d-554f-24c55c0f3ba5@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOr5x=98nXeBCT8O-wjk90ga1F3EVk2ktMYoAj9Q8tRkg@mail.gmail.com> <AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <4f634e7c-f3b9-f0ab-abc7-80ec1062b52a@strayalpha.com>
To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/uebo9NrHcI1rx8RXB6USkNlYmoY>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm]  LDP Security
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Joe,

There=92s no problem with updating, the problem is with adoption...

Regards,
Jeff

> On Nov 11, 2017, at 08:48, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to include/req=
uire other algorithms. It was intended to be extensible.
>=20
> I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on extension=
s to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters and keys, but it stal=
led twice:
>=20
> M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U. Chunduri, A. T=
ian, J. Touch, =93Negotiation for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in IKEv2=
,=94 (RFC in progress), Nov. 2013.
>=20
> U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, =93Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO,=94 (RFC in pro=
gress), Feb. 2014.
>=20
> AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues with its us=
e outside routing environments where keys are already considered sufficientl=
y managed.
>=20
> However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no implementatio=
ns available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a new solution simply to=
 avoid implementing an existing one would be a significant waste of time.
> Joe
>=20
>> On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:
>> +TCPM
>> =20
>> Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak up at=
 the upcoming TCPM meeting.
>> =20
>> The addition of SHA-256 has been discussed in TCPM already (see draft-nay=
ak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not much energy and no interest from p=
otential TCP-AO implementers or users.
>> =20
>> Michael
>> (TCPM co-chair)
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM
>> To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ad=
s@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ad=
s@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>> =20
>> Hi Stewart
>> =20
>> Thanks for your note.
>> =20
>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>> =20
>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>> - It uses weak algorithms
>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>> =20
>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedie=
s the algorithm
>> issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress=
 on the key
>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying ei=
ther of these
>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use). We s=
hould probably
>> talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to get better any time=
 soon.
>> =20
>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read "S=
HA-256", with
>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>> =20
>> -Ekr
>> =20
>> =20
>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a hug=
e improvement.
>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but oppor=
tunistic.  That said,
>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link af=
ter connection
>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>> =20
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>=20
>> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>> PALS WG Chairs.
>>=20
>> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working gr=
oups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately secured.=
 LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its messages, but=
 MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet current securit=
y requirements.
>>=20
>> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. Sess=
ion communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>>=20
>> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the aut=
henticity and integrity of session messages.
>>=20
>> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to b=
e too weak for this                   application.  It also points out that a=
 similar TCP                   option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it c=
ites                   SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowl=
edge, no such TCP option has been defined and deployed.  However, we note th=
at LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and whe=
n one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use i=
t would be relatively straightforward."
>>=20
>> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 w=
ith TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to se=
cure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently no=
 recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified. We a=
re concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations will si=
mply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>>=20
>> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 7=
454 that contains the following requirement:
>>=20
>> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure t=
he TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP MD5 S=
ignature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be implem=
ented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is th=
e preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is unavailable."
>>=20
>> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP se=
curity negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we need t=
o include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the absen=
ce of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a configurat=
ion process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is complete. On=
 completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue a further up=
date requiring its use.
>>=20
>> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an indefi=
nite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF anticipates upda=
ting the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>>=20
>> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can=
 reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which wi=
ll provide adequate security without significantly degrading the convergence=
 time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly impact route=
r convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open another.
>>=20
>> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need t=
o ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help corr=
ecting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our misunderstanding o=
f the existing security mechanisms. We also need the recommendations of a su=
itable security function (TBD in the above text).
>>=20
>> Best regards
>>=20
>> The MPLS WG Chairs
>> The PALS WG Chairs
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> tcpm mailing list
>> tcpm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Joe,<div><br></div><div>There=E2=80=99s no p=
roblem with updating, the problem is with adoption...<br><br><div id=3D"Appl=
eMailSignature">Regards,<div>Jeff</div></div><div><br>On Nov 11, 2017, at 08=
:48, Joe Touch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:touch@strayalpha.com">touch@strayalpha.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
>
 =20
 =20
    <p>Hi, all,</p>
    <p>I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to
      include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be
      extensible.</p>
    <p>I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on
      extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters
      and keys, but it stalled twice:</p>
    <p>M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U.
      Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://www.isi.edu/to=
uch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt">Negotiation
        for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in IKEv2</a>,=E2=80=9D (RFC in=

      progress), Nov. 2013.</p>
    <p>U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://www.isi.ed=
u/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt">Using
        IKEv2 with TCP-AO</a>,=E2=80=9D (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.</p>
    <p>AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues
      with its use outside routing environments where keys are already
      considered sufficiently managed.</p>
    <p>However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no
      implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a
      new solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be
      a significant waste of time.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Joe<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael
      (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B=
393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com">
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      <div class=3D"WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">+TCPM <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO
          on the TCPM list, or speak up at the upcoming TCPM meeting.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The addition of SHA-256 has been
          discussed in TCPM already (see draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but
          so far there was not much energy and no interest from
          potential TCP-AO implementers or users.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">(TCPM co-chair)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls
                [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:mpls-boun=
ces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
                </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:stewart.br=
yant@gmail.com">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" h=
ref=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ie=
tf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>;
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:mpls-ch=
airs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviate=
d" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org">pals@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ie=
tf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play
                is, I think much like yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major
                respects:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<o:p></o:p></p=
>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It has a bad negotiation/setuop
                story (manual key management)<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in
                replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies the algorithm<o:p></=
o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">issue but not the key management
                issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on the key<o:p></o:=
p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to
                be a major impediment to deploying either of these<o:p></o:p=
></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">technologies (which I am given to
                understand don't see a lot of use). We should probably<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">talk in Singapore about that, but
                that's not going to get better any time soon.<o:p></o:p></p>=

            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the text you
                have is OK, and "TBD" should read "SHA-256", with<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt;
                SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support
                for rollover, but this is not a huge improvement.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal
                here as it's unauthenticated but opportunistic.&nbsp; That
                said,<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">it would provide defense against
                attackers who gain access to the link after connection<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">setup and doesn't require
                configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM,
                Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;
                wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the=

                  SEC and RTG ADs,<br>
                  <br>
                  I am sending the following message on behalf of the
                  MPLS and the<br>
                  PALS WG Chairs.<br>
                  <br>
                  There is a concern shared among the security community
                  and the working groups that develop the LDP protocol
                  that LDP is no longer adequately secured. LDP
                  currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of
                  its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no
                  longer considered to meet current security
                  requirements.<br>
                  <br>
                  In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) ,
                  List element 2. Session communication carried by TCP
                  the following statements is made:<br>
                  <br>
                  "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to
                  provide for the authenticity and integrity of session
                  messages.<br>
                  <br>
                  "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now
                  considered by some to be too weak for this
                  application.&nbsp; It also points out that a similar TCP
                  option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
                  SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.&nbsp; To our
                  knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and
                  deployed.&nbsp; However, we note that LDP can use whatever=

                  TCP message digest techniques are available, and when
                  one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented,
                  upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
                  straightforward."<br>
                  <br>
                  We note that BGP has already been through this
                  process, and replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I
                  would be logical to follow the same approach to secure
                  LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain,
                  there is currently no recommended, mandatory to
                  implement, cryptographic function specified. We are
                  concerned that without such a mandatory function,
                  implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we
                  will be no further forward<br>
                  <br>
                  We think that the best way forward is to publish a
                  draft similar to RFC 7454 that contains the following
                  requirement:<br>
                  <br>
                  "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement
                  TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in
                  addition to the currently required TCP MD5 Signature
                  Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism
                  must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure
                  LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred
                  option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
                  unavailable."<br>
                  <br>
                  We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but
                  it seems that TCP security negotiation is still work
                  in progress. If we are wrong, then we need to include
                  a requirement that such negotiation is also required.
                  In the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we
                  need to leave this as a configuration process until
                  such time as the negotiation protocol work is
                  complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation
                  protocol we need to issue a further update requiring
                  its use.<br>
                  <br>
                  Additionally we should note that no cryptographic
                  mechanism has an indefinite lifetime, and that
                  implementation should note the IETF anticipates
                  updating the default cryptographic mechanism over
                  time.<br>
                  <br>
                  The TBD default security function will need to be
                  chosen such that it can reasonably be implemented on a
                  typical router route processor, and which will provide
                  adequate security without significantly degrading the
                  convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that
                  does not significantly impact router convergence we
                  simply close one vulnerability and open another.<br>
                  <br>
                  As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security
                  mechanisms, we&nbsp; need to ask the security area for a
                  review of our proposed approach, and help correcting
                  any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
                  misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms.
                  We also need the recommendations of a suitable
                  security function (TBD in the above text).<br>
                  <br>
                  Best regards<br>
                  <br>
                  The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
                  The PALS WG Chairs<br>
                  <br>
                  <o:p></o:p></p>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:tcpm@ietf.org">tcpm@iet=
f.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/tcpm">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>mpls mailing list</span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/mpls</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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Cc: "'Uma Chunduri'" <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "'mpls-chairs'" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, <pals@ietf.org>, <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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Kathleen and Eric:=20

I agree that getting linux implementations with TCP-AO is one avenue to =
drive things into product.   Any ideas on getting more deployment for =
routing security - is really important.   Pushing both small and large =
gains (TCP-AO, registration) will help us continually increase the =
security.  =20

Sue=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2017 3:09 PM
To: Eric Rescorla
Cc: Susan Hares; Uma Chunduri; mpls@ietf.org; =
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs; =
pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I agree. I don't really have any good ideas how to get people to =

> do AO. Based on comments I've heard, providers don't see a lot of=20
> value, rightly or wrongly....

I know Alia has been talking about a possible Linux implementation to =
drive the way.  I agree with EKR on other points and have been following =
along.

Best,
Kathleen
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
>>
>> Eric:
>>
>>
>>
>> BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP and=20
>> LDP =E2=80=93 but there are issues with customer pick-up and =
deployment of=20
>> these protocols on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP =
started, but we did not.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the =
DC=20
>> providers say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one =
administration=E2=80=9D.  Another problem is on private
>> lines.    We should chat about the networks each of these protocols =
are
>> actually deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to encourage
>> adoption, I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really =
mean=20
>> anything if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared to =

>> getting people to TCP-AO.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sue
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
>> To: Uma Chunduri
>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;=20
>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have=20
>> TCP-AO then presumably they have SHA-1.
>>
>>
>>
>> But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this=20
>> case, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we require =
AO.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri=20
>> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
>>
>>
>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;=20
>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;=20
>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>=20
>> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri=20
>> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> In-line [Uma1]:
>>
>> --
>>
>> Uma C.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
>> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; mpls@ietf.org;=20
>> pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>;=20
>> mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>=20
>> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri=20
>> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Stewart,
>>
>>
>>
>> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP security =

>> is analyzed from all aspects.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric,
>>
>>
>>
>> Quick comments below [Uma]:
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Uma C.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
>> To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>=20
>> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org;=20
>> <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Stewart
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your note.
>>
>>
>>
>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>>
>>
>>
>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>>
>> - It uses weak algorithms
>>
>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>>
>>
>>
>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so=20
>> remedies the algorithm
>>
>> Issue
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
>>
>>
>>
>> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress=20
>> on the key
>>
>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to=20
>> deploying either of these
>>
>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma]: True.
>>
>>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back=20
>> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP,=20
>> PCEP, MSDP ..).
>>
>>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate=20
>> TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) -
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
>>
>>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me &=20
>> Joe put together=20
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-
>> tcp-ao-06.txt
>>
>>            Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded =
KARP WG=20
>> (not fully sure the reasons on why).
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it=20
>> kinda didn't progress much.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going =

>> to get better any time soon.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should=20
>> read "SHA-256", with
>>
>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 =
in the=20
>> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
>>
>>
>>
>> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
>>
>> 1.       Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): Use TCP-AO =
(instead
>> of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so the =
=E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99=20
>> in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
>>
>> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do =
SHA-256
>> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit in=20
>> one way from existing stuff or even  #1.
>>
>> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO,=20
>> just with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine as =

>> far as I know.
>>
>> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
>>
>>                  But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one=20
>> MUST implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually work  =

>> (especially
>> - *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
>>
>>                  Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do=20
>> negotiation through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>> 3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get =
all we wanted=E2=80=A6.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly*=20
>> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for #2=20
>> and #3 for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2 =
any ways.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a =

>> huge improvement.
>>
>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but=20
>> opportunistic.  That said,
>>
>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the=20
>> link after connection
>>
>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant=20
>> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>
>> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the PALS =

>> WG Chairs.
>>
>> There is a concern shared among the security community and the=20
>> working groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer=20
>> adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic=20
>> security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no=20
>> longer considered to meet current security requirements.
>>
>> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2.
>> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is =
made:
>>
>> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the =

>> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>>
>> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some=20
>> to be too weak for this application.  It also points out that a=20
>> similar TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites SHA-1=20
>> as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP=20
>> option has been defined and deployed.  However, we note that LDP can=20
>> use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and when=20
>> one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to =
use it would be relatively straightforward."
>>
>> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced=20
>> MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same=20
>> approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain,=20
>> there is currently no recommended, mandatory to implement,=20
>> cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that without such=20
>> a mandatory function, implementations will simply fall back to MD5=20
>> and we will be no further forward
>>
>> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to=20
>> RFC
>> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>>
>> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to=20
>> secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently=20
>> required TCP MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic =

>> mechanism must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP=20
>> messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is only=20
>> to be used when TBD is unavailable."
>>
>> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that=20
>> TCP security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong,=20
>> then we need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also=20
>> required. In the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we need=20
>> to leave this as a configuration process until such time as the=20
>> negotiation protocol work is complete. On completion of a suitable=20
>> negotiation protocol we need to issue a further update requiring its =
use.
>>
>> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an=20
>> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF=20
>> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>>
>> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it =

>> can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor,=20
>> and which will provide adequate security without significantly=20
>> degrading the convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that=20
>> does not significantly impact router convergence we simply close one=20
>> vulnerability and open another.
>>
>> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we =20
>> need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach,=20
>> and help correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or=20
>> our misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also=20
>> need the recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in the =
above text).
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> The MPLS WG Chairs
>> The PALS WG Chairs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 3:58 AM

> Kathleen and Eric:
>
> I agree that getting linux implementations with TCP-AO is one avenue
to drive things into product.   Any ideas on getting more deployment for
routing security - is really important.   Pushing both small and large
gains (TCP-AO, registration) will help us continually increase the
security.
>

After a lifetime of trying to forestall disasters, and failing, only to
have clients say afterwards 'I wish we had listened to you', my
conclusion is that the disaster has to happen first; only then will
users be motivated enough to incur the cost, the hassle of changing
their ways.

I see this with systems and networks, and I hear of just such a case
which led to the present level of security being added to BGP.

What we should - must - do is ensure that when disaster strikes, and
users are motivated, then the specifications are ready; two stalled
I-Ds, as was mentioned up-thread, is not ready.

Tom Petch

> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2017 3:09 PM
>

> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, I agree. I don't really have any good ideas how to get people
to
> > do AO. Based on comments I've heard, providers don't see a lot of
> > value, rightly or wrongly....
>
> I know Alia has been talking about a possible Linux implementation to
drive the way.  I agree with EKR on other points and have been following
along.
>
> Best,
> Kathleen
> >
> > -Ekr
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Eric:
> >>
> >> BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP
and
> >> LDP – but there are issues with customer pick-up and deployment of
> >> these protocols on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP
started, but we did not.
> >>
> >> Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers – where the DC
> >> providers say “It’s all under one administration”.  Another problem
is on private
> >> lines.    We should chat about the networks each of these protocols
are
> >> actually deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to
encourage
> >> adoption, I’d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not really mean
> >> anything if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.
> >>
> >> Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared
to
> >> getting people to TCP-AO.
> >>
> >> Sue
> >>
> >> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric
Rescorla
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
> >> To: Uma Chunduri
> >>
> >> I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have
> >> TCP-AO then presumably they have SHA-1.
> >>
> >> But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this
> >> case, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we
require AO.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri
> >> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
> >>
> >> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri
> >> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> In-line [Uma1]:
> >>
> >> Uma C.
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri
> >> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Stewart,
> >>
> >> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP
security
> >> is analyzed from all aspects.
> >>
> >> Eric,
> >>
> >> Quick comments below [Uma]:
> >>
> >> Uma C.
> >>
> >> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric
Rescorla
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
> >>
> >> Hi Stewart
> >>
> >> Thanks for your note.
> >>
> >> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
> >>
> >> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
> >>
> >> - It uses weak algorithms
> >>
> >> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
> >>
> >> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so
> >> remedies the algorithm
> >>
> >> Issue
> >>
> >> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
> >>
> >> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress
> >> on the key
> >>
> >> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to
> >> deploying either of these
> >>
> >> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of
use).
> >>
> >> [Uma]: True.
> >>
> >>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back
> >> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP,
> >> PCEP, MSDP ..).
> >>
> >>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate
> >> TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) -
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
> >>
> >>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me &
> >> Joe put together
> >>
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-
> >> tcp-ao-06.txt
> >>
> >>            Note the above didn’t progress in the concluded KARP WG
> >> (not fully sure the reasons on why).
> >>
> >> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it
> >> kinda didn't progress much.
> >>
> >> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not
going
> >> to get better any time soon.
> >>
> >> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should
> >> read "SHA-256", with
> >>
> >> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
> >>
> >> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn’t see SHA256 in the
> >> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
> >>
> >> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
> >>
> >> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
> >>
> >> 1.       Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): Use TCP-AO
(instead
> >> of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs – so the ‘TBD’
> >> in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
> >>
> >> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do
SHA-256
> >> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit
in
> >> one way from existing stuff or even  #1.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO,
> >> just with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine
as
> >> far as I know.
> >>
> >> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
> >>
> >>                  But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one
> >> MUST implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually
work
> >> (especially
> >> - *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
> >>
> >>                  Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do
> >> negotiation through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >> 3.       Do key management and “theoretically” get all we wanted….
> >>
> >> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly*
> >> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for
#2
> >> and #3 for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2
any ways.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not
a
> >> huge improvement.
> >>
> >> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
> >> opportunistic.  That said,
> >>
> >> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the
> >> link after connection
> >>
> >> setup and doesn't require configuration.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant
> >> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
> >>
> >> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
PALS
> >> WG Chairs.
> >>
> >> There is a concern shared among the security community and the
> >> working groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer
> >> adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic
> >> security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no
> >> longer considered to meet current security requirements.
> >>
> >> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element
2.
> >> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is
made:
> >>
> >> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for
the
> >> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
> >>
> >> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by
some
> >> to be too weak for this application.  It also points out that a
> >> similar TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
SHA-1
> >> as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP
> >> option has been defined and deployed.  However, we note that LDP
can
> >> use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and when
> >> one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP
to use it would be relatively straightforward."
> >>
> >> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and
replaced
> >> MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same
> >> approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to
ascertain,
> >> there is currently no recommended, mandatory to implement,
> >> cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that without
such
> >> a mandatory function, implementations will simply fall back to MD5
> >> and we will be no further forward
> >>
> >> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to
> >> RFC
> >> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
> >>
> >> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to
> >> secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently
> >> required TCP MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD
cryptographic
> >> mechanism must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP
> >> messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is
only
> >> to be used when TBD is unavailable."
> >>
> >> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that
> >> TCP security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are
wrong,
> >> then we need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also
> >> required. In the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we
need
> >> to leave this as a configuration process until such time as the
> >> negotiation protocol work is complete. On completion of a suitable
> >> negotiation protocol we need to issue a further update requiring
its use.
> >>
> >> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
> >> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
> >> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
> >>
> >> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that
it
> >> can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor,
> >> and which will provide adequate security without significantly
> >> degrading the convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that
> >> does not significantly impact router convergence we simply close
one
> >> vulnerability and open another.
> >>
> >> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we
> >> need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed
approach,
> >> and help correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or
> >> our misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also
> >> need the recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in
the above text).
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >>
> >> The MPLS WG Chairs
> >> The PALS WG Chairs


From nobody Sat Nov 11 08:06:36 2017
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Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm]  LDP Security
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On 11/10/2017 7:11 PM, Jeff Tantsura wrote:
> Joe,
>
> There’s no problem with updating, the problem is with adoption...

Sure, but I hope designing a new solution isn't assumed to be the best
way to achieve that. tcpinc showed that it's easy to get it wrong (it
may provide help to TCP content, but "TCP security" it isn't).

Joe


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From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
To: "'t.petch'" <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "'Kathleen Moriarty'" <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "'Eric Rescorla'" <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: <mpls@ietf.org>, <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "'mpls-chairs'" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, <pals@ietf.org>, <sec-ads@ietf.org>
References: <2da71163-cf29-cba6-df61-d75a2cfc9c43@gmail.com> <CAA=duU1qV-LiU5pR7VtLLVGtb-8nZHrnUqVyOKpST3-6Dr-Xgw@mail.gmail.com> <ce2c75b6-156d-da80-91d7-b7e6ba2059a0@gmail.com> <CAA=duU1xvV0genbR0CBx2rmpOWUkFmRJX3qrMEp21gTd1HOVww@mail.gmail.com> <f0d553da-0ac4-e794-5cd5-d9cc95063dc6@pi.nu> <15335748-e900-280d-554f-24c55c0f3ba5@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOr5x=98nXeBCT8O-wjk90ga1F3EVk2ktMYoAj9Q8tRkg@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBO6msQuxGLtWp4HDQAGtub Op-33Gt+uip5P3 y2-icnRqg@mail.gmail.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F5726854135191D6@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <CABcZeBPK=ze90qa1qzMsUMVN_=5Pf85Nv6uanEvsV5nVR4v0HA@mail.gmail.com> <25B4902B1192E84696414485F572685413519209@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <CABcZeBO56DrS9EAUJ2WwD3ucR9+HvDem3AQVVe_CzY55TgXkQQ@mail.gmail.com> <002101d35919$c6295b90$527c12b0$@ndzh.com> <CABcZeBMqYCaq_g+dP_Q4rFjQgS_oG+iYtDg=qp1e9Rc4yZ9U9A@mail.gmail.com> <CAHbuEH4mewYdnuOvxRhfgsBBmf+goZt-iwdAge8GeLAcEBB9Fw@mail.gmail.com> <041301d35aa1$6b091c30$411b5490$@ndzh.com> <01a d01d35aed$421b 22e0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
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Tom:

+1.    Wise words.  My father-in-law gave this same advice to the =
researchers at Corning.  Their projects - such as fiber optics went from =
"prototypes" to massive deployments with aid from standards + =
appropriate fixes.   =20

Sue=20


-----Original Message-----
From: t.petch [mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com]=20
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 7:40 AM
To: Susan Hares; 'Kathleen Moriarty'; 'Eric Rescorla'
Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; rtg-ads@ietf.org; =
'mpls-chairs'; pals@ietf.org; sec-ads@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Hares" <shares@ndzh.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 3:58 AM

> Kathleen and Eric:
>
> I agree that getting linux implementations with TCP-AO is one avenue
to drive things into product.   Any ideas on getting more deployment for
routing security - is really important.   Pushing both small and large
gains (TCP-AO, registration) will help us continually increase the =
security.
>

After a lifetime of trying to forestall disasters, and failing, only to =
have clients say afterwards 'I wish we had listened to you', my =
conclusion is that the disaster has to happen first; only then will =
users be motivated enough to incur the cost, the hassle of changing =
their ways.

I see this with systems and networks, and I hear of just such a case =
which led to the present level of security being added to BGP.

What we should - must - do is ensure that when disaster strikes, and =
users are motivated, then the specifications are ready; two stalled =
I-Ds, as was mentioned up-thread, is not ready.

Tom Petch

> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathleen Moriarty [mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2017 3:09 PM
>

> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, I agree. I don't really have any good ideas how to get people
to
> > do AO. Based on comments I've heard, providers don't see a lot of=20
> > value, rightly or wrongly....
>
> I know Alia has been talking about a possible Linux implementation to
drive the way.  I agree with EKR on other points and have been following =
along.
>
> Best,
> Kathleen
> >
> > -Ekr
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Eric:
> >>
> >> BGP and LDP would be more secure if TCP-AO deployed with all BGP
and
> >> LDP =E2=80=93 but there are issues with customer pick-up and =
deployment of=20
> >> these protocols on many networks.  I wished we had TCP-AO when BGP
started, but we did not.
> >>
> >> Some of the least secure BGP is in data centers =E2=80=93 where the =
DC=20
> >> providers say =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=99s all under one =
administration=E2=80=9D.  Another problem
is on private
> >> lines.    We should chat about the networks each of these protocols
are
> >> actually deployed on.   If you have any insight on a way to
encourage
> >> adoption, I=E2=80=99d love to hear it. Require TCP-AO does not =
really mean=20
> >> anything if providers and Data Centers do not adopt it.
> >>
> >> Going from SHA-1 to SHA-256 on a TCP-AO is simple upgrade compared
to
> >> getting people to TCP-AO.
> >>
> >> Sue
> >>
> >> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric
Rescorla
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 7:44 PM
> >> To: Uma Chunduri
> >>
> >> I don't understand what you're getting at here. Yes, if people have =

> >> TCP-AO then presumably they have SHA-1.
> >>
> >> But now we're talking about requiring people to have TCP-AO in this =

> >> case, so we should try to move them to SHA-256 at the time we
require AO.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Uma Chunduri=20
> >> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 3:53 PM
> >>
> >> To: Uma Chunduri <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Uma Chunduri=20
> >> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> In-line [Uma1]:
> >>
> >> Uma C.
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 12:53 PM
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Uma Chunduri=20
> >> <uma.chunduri@huawei.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Stewart,
> >>
> >> I would note https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6952 - where LDP
security
> >> is analyzed from all aspects.
> >>
> >> Eric,
> >>
> >> Quick comments below [Uma]:
> >>
> >> Uma C.
> >>
> >> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric
Rescorla
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:00 AM
> >>
> >> Hi Stewart
> >>
> >> Thanks for your note.
> >>
> >> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
> >>
> >> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
> >>
> >> - It uses weak algorithms
> >>
> >> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
> >>
> >> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so=20
> >> remedies the algorithm
> >>
> >> Issue
> >>
> >> [Uma]: Yes, if we go with RFC 5926 mandatory list..
> >>
> >> but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress =

> >> on the key
> >>
> >> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to=20
> >> deploying either of these
> >>
> >> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of
use).
> >>
> >> [Uma]: True.
> >>
> >>                But I would indicate some effort done few years back =

> >> regarding key management for pair wise routing protocols (BGP, LDP, =

> >> PCEP, MSDP ..).
> >>
> >>                One such proposal is by extending IKEv2 to negotiate =

> >> TCP-AO MKTs (which can give rekey & algo. agility) -
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05
> >>
> >>                This also requires some more work with TCP-AO; me &=20
> >> Joe put together
> >>
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-
> >> tcp-ao-06.txt
> >>
> >>            Note the above didn=E2=80=99t progress in the concluded =
KARP WG=20
> >> (not fully sure the reasons on why).
> >>
> >> Yeah, I know that people tried to do this, but my impression was it =

> >> kinda didn't progress much.
> >>
> >> We should probably talk in Singapore about that, but that's not
going
> >> to get better any time soon.
> >>
> >> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should=20
> >> read "SHA-256", with
> >>
> >> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
> >>
> >> [Uma]: While the list can be extended - I didn=E2=80=99t see SHA256 =
in the=20
> >> mandatory list in RFC 5926 for MAC.
> >>
> >> Generally we're trying to move away from SHA-1 towards SHA-256.
> >>
> >> [Uma1]: Couple of things:
> >>
> >> 1.       Nothing to be done (from spec pov of course): Use TCP-AO
(instead
> >> of current MD5) with the RFC 5926 mandated MACs/KDFs =E2=80=93 so =
the =E2=80=98TBD=E2=80=99
> >> in Stewart suggesting below is already there.
> >>
> >> 2.       As #1 too is not good enough from your above note - do
SHA-256
> >> and live with it (no algorithm agility). Still a security benefit
in
> >> one way from existing stuff or even  #1.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure why you say "no algorithm agility". You'd be using AO, =

> >> just with a different algorithm than SHA-1. AES-CMAC is still fine
as
> >> far as I know.
> >>
> >> [Uma2]: Sure, you have it, if you use AO;
> >>
> >>                  But then  I am not getting how we can mandate one=20
> >> MUST implement algorithm as suggested below TBD  would actually
work
> >> (especially
> >> - *if* #1 is already deployed somewhere?)
> >>
> >>                  Perhaps staying with #1 is the best bet or do=20
> >> negotiation through #3, with already mandated and additional stuff.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >> 3.       Do key management and =E2=80=9Ctheoretically=E2=80=9D get =
all we wanted=E2=80=A6.
> >>
> >> We have been here multiple times; because #1 itself is not *mostly* =

> >> deployed (neither in BGP nor in LDP) if there is any appetite for
#2
> >> and #3 for practical deployments. But still it may be good to do #2
any ways.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not
a
> >> huge improvement.
> >>
> >> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but =

> >> opportunistic.  That said,
> >>
> >> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the=20
> >> link after connection
> >>
> >> setup and doesn't require configuration.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant=20
> >> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
> >>
> >> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
PALS
> >> WG Chairs.
> >>
> >> There is a concern shared among the security community and the=20
> >> working groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer=20
> >> adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic=20
> >> security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no=20
> >> longer considered to meet current security requirements.
> >>
> >> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element
2.
> >> Session communication carried by TCP the following statements is
made:
> >>
> >> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for
the
> >> authenticity and integrity of session messages.
> >>
> >> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by
some
> >> to be too weak for this application.  It also points out that a=20
> >> similar TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
SHA-1
> >> as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP=20
> >> option has been defined and deployed.  However, we note that LDP
can
> >> use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and when=20
> >> one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP
to use it would be relatively straightforward."
> >>
> >> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and
replaced
> >> MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same=20
> >> approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to
ascertain,
> >> there is currently no recommended, mandatory to implement,=20
> >> cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that without
such
> >> a mandatory function, implementations will simply fall back to MD5=20
> >> and we will be no further forward
> >>
> >> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to =

> >> RFC
> >> 7454 that contains the following requirement:
> >>
> >> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to=20
> >> secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently=20
> >> required TCP MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD
cryptographic
> >> mechanism must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP=20
> >> messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option, and MD5 is
only
> >> to be used when TBD is unavailable."
> >>
> >> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that=20
> >> TCP security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are
wrong,
> >> then we need to include a requirement that such negotiation is also =

> >> required. In the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we
need
> >> to leave this as a configuration process until such time as the=20
> >> negotiation protocol work is complete. On completion of a suitable=20
> >> negotiation protocol we need to issue a further update requiring
its use.
> >>
> >> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an=20
> >> indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF=20
> >> anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
> >>
> >> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that
it
> >> can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor,=20
> >> and which will provide adequate security without significantly=20
> >> degrading the convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that=20
> >> does not significantly impact router convergence we simply close
one
> >> vulnerability and open another.
> >>
> >> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we=20
> >> need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed
approach,
> >> and help correcting any misunderstanding of the security issues or=20
> >> our misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms. We also=20
> >> need the recommendations of a suitable security function (TBD in
the above text).
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >>
> >> The MPLS WG Chairs
> >> The PALS WG Chairs



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Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm]  LDP Security
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Joe:=20

No - the mentioning of deployment issues was just background on =
discussion and an expression of my personal angst on this topic.=20

Sue Hares=20
-----Original Message-----
From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 11:06 AM
To: Jeff Tantsura
Cc: mpls@ietf.org; Eric Rescorla; tcpm@ietf.org; =
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; =
pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm] LDP Security



On 11/10/2017 7:11 PM, Jeff Tantsura wrote:
> Joe,
>
> There=E2=80=99s no problem with updating, the problem is with =
adoption...

Sure, but I hope designing a new solution isn't assumed to be the best =
way to achieve that. tcpinc showed that it's easy to get it wrong (it =
may provide help to TCP content, but "TCP security" it isn't).

Joe

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Subject: [mpls] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-yang-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Multiprotocol Label Switching WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for MPLS LDP
        Authors         : Kamran Raza
                          Rajiv Asati
                          Xufeng Liu
                          Santosh Esale
                          Xia Chen
                          Himanshu Shah
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-yang-03.txt
	Pages           : 76
	Date            : 2017-11-12

Abstract:
   This document describes a YANG data model for Multi-Protocol Label
   Switching (MPLS) Label Distribution Protocol (LDP).  This model also
   serves as the base model that is augmented to define Multipoint LDP
   (mLDP) model.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-yang-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-yang-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-yang-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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Subject: [mpls] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Multiprotocol Label Switching WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for MPLS mLDP
        Authors         : Kamran Raza
                          Sowmya Krishnaswamy
                          Xufeng Liu
                          Santosh Esale
                          Loa Andersson
                          Jeff Tantsura
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-03.txt
	Pages           : 58
	Date            : 2017-11-12

Abstract:
   This document describes a YANG data model for Multi-Protocol Label
   Switching (MPLS) Multipoint Label Distribution Protocol (mLDP).  The
   mLDP data model augments the LDP data model.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
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From nobody Mon Nov 13 00:26:59 2017
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From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 03:26:54 -0500
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To: N.Leymann@telekom.de
Cc: mpls-chairs@ietf.org, IETF MPLS List <mpls@ietf.org>,  draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/AYsmFk9TS6e_yAMKJMZNP-Ir3d8>
Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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--f403045d24f672ac8b055dd908cd
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Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft. The IPR has been
disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules.
datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580

Regards,
-Pavan

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 5:01 AM, <N.Leymann@telekom.de> wrote:

> Working Group,
>
> We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group
> last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.
>
> This is to start the IPR Poll.
>
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?
>
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see
> RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
> Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual
> document:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/
>
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.
> *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document
> will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from
> each author and contributor.
>
> If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
> IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
> Best regards
>
> Nic
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--f403045d24f672ac8b055dd908cd
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Yes, I&#39;m aware of IPR th=
at applies to this draft. The IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IET=
F IPR rules.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href=3D"http://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/ipr/2580" target=3D"_blank">datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580</a>=
<wbr><br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<br></span></div><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:=
rgb(31,73,125)">-Pavan<br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 5:01 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">N.Leymann@telek=
om.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">






<div>
<font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">
<div>Working Group,</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working gro=
up last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>This is to start the IPR Poll.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?<=
/div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (=
see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual=
 document:</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>ipr/2580/</a></div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond t=
o this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR=
. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document=
 will not advance to the next stage
until a response has been received from each author and contributor.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author o=
r contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any =
IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Best regards</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Nic</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</span></font>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045d24f672ac8b055dd908cd--


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To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
References: <2da71163-cf29-cba6-df61-d75a2cfc9c43@gmail.com> <CAA=duU2YLjSg8Q5PDT+u9cxn9u2xsiPu-imBJrnyL3bfkQFW7A@mail.gmail.com> <7ee4fd77-7d8d-0db2-527e-9cf91d87e634@gmail.com> <CAA=duU3nJsS86udidgkH9jhB9ZD+xaRa2A4MniAVL1BpGE78ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <cf0cb5a4-cc21-97e1-1c26-38974bf9c0be@pi.nu> <51b9e5b4-0a44-1449-a4df-91e4f9df5d6b@pi.nu> <CAA=duU2R9kBMWnRdwPPO49LF1Jc1tyrxvwkyTgaE6SC6jsVruw@mail.gmail.com> <02a50f02-779e-bc39-505c-5a51d066b3f0@pi.nu> <CAA=duU1qV-LiU5pR7VtLLVGtb-8nZHrnUqVyOKpST3-6Dr-Xgw@mail.gmail.com> <ce2c75b6-156d-da80-91d7-b7e6ba2059a0@gmail.com> <CAA=duU1xvV0genbR0CBx2rmpOWUkFmRJX3qrMEp21gTd1HOVww@mail.gmail.com> <f0d553da-0ac4-e794-5cd5-d9cc95063dc6@pi.nu> <15335748-e900-280d-554f-24c55c0f3ba5@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOr5x=98nXeBCT8O-wjk90ga1F3EVk2ktMYoAj9Q8tRkg@mail.gmail.com> <AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <4f634e7c-f3b9-f0ab-abc7-80ec1062b52a@strayalpha.com> <697AC959-60C2-401D-9E64-D88E16F35EBB@gmail.com>
From: Ignas Bagdonas <ibagdona.ietf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1817bcab-e088-b822-bf6d-07e52b9fb998@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 09:24:00 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm] LDP Security
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An operator’s view here. Addressing multiple points in a single message 
here.

Yes, the issue is with adoption. It is not being adopted because the 
problem solution does not necessary address the actual problem.

Taking BGP as an example (and most of this applies to LDP as well) – we 
need to differentiate what security means in BGP context. Is it BGP 
transport security – the confidentiality of BGP messages exchanged 
between the peers (which MD5 or AO can address), or BGP information 
security – whether the peer is authorized to advertise a prefix and with 
what attributes (to which the presence or absence of MD5 and AO is 
orthogonal).

Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a substitute for 
practical operational hygiene. If you have right confidentiality 
mechanism for BGP transport but do not implement proper edge filtering – 
you will run into problems. Not because there will be a compromise of 
BGP session transport, but because there will be a variety of DoS forms 
on the BGP component itself and the platform on which it is running. 
Proper edge filtering plus TTL validation is good enough and simple 
enough to be universally deployed, and MD5 option is used to validate 
that you are indeed speaking to the same peer to which you were speaking 
before the maintenance window, it is a form of a strong checksum. AO or 
BGP over TLS (dare I to say that :-) ) does nothing to address the BGP 
information security aspects of who is or is not allowed to advertise 
certain types of BGP routing information – which is the source of 
virtually all of practical (and successful) attacks happening in BGP 
context. This is the reason why AO or some other strong cryptographic 
mechanism for BGP transport session is not on the top of the list of 
operational worries, if at that list at all. RPKI family of solutions 
tries to address the BGP information security part. It tries, not 
necessary addresses it in a practical way. But that is above the session 
level security problems.

Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a substitute for 
proper network design. Taking the DC example, if the attack vector is 
based on the tenant’s ability to interfere with BGP sessions used for 
controlling the topology that does not belong to the tenant – that is a 
broken network design, and it should be fixed first before trying to fix 
BGP itself. BGP is not at fault here, the design of the network that 
does not allow for sufficient isolation between entities is. No protocol 
is able to fix the design problems by itself.

This does not mean that AO or some other transport security mechanism is 
not relevant or not needed. At least the solution for key rollover that 
is better than manual synchronization over phone is definitely of value.

Ignas


On 11/11/2017 03:11, Jeff Tantsura wrote:
> Joe,
>
> There’s no problem with updating, the problem is with adoption...
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
> On Nov 11, 2017, at 08:48, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com 
> <mailto:touch@strayalpha.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hi, all,
>>
>> I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to 
>> include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be extensible.
>>
>> I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on 
>> extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters and 
>> keys, but it stalled twice:
>>
>> M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U. 
>> Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “Negotiation for Keying Pairwise Routing 
>> Protocols in IKEv2 
>> <http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt>,” (RFC 
>> in progress), Nov. 2013.
>>
>> U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO 
>> <http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt>,” 
>> (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.
>>
>> AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues with 
>> its use outside routing environments where keys are already 
>> considered sufficiently managed.
>>
>> However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no 
>> implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a 
>> new solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be a 
>> significant waste of time.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>> On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:
>>>
>>> +TCPM
>>>
>>> Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak 
>>> up at the upcoming TCPM meeting.
>>>
>>> The addition of SHA-256 has been discussed in TCPM already (see 
>>> draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not much energy and 
>>> no interest from potential TCP-AO implementers or users.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> (TCPM co-chair)
>>>
>>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM
>>> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> 
>>> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; 
>>> <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>
>>> Hi Stewart
>>>
>>> Thanks for your note.
>>>
>>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>>>
>>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>>>
>>> - It uses weak algorithms
>>>
>>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>>>
>>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so 
>>> remedies the algorithm
>>>
>>> issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much 
>>> progress on the key
>>>
>>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to 
>>> deploying either of these
>>>
>>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of 
>>> use). We should probably
>>>
>>> talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to get better any 
>>> time soon.
>>>
>>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should 
>>> read "SHA-256", with
>>>
>>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not 
>>> a huge improvement.
>>>
>>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but 
>>> opportunistic.  That said,
>>>
>>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the 
>>> link after connection
>>>
>>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant 
>>> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>>
>>>     I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>>>     PALS WG Chairs.
>>>
>>>     There is a concern shared among the security community and the
>>>     working groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no
>>>     longer adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for
>>>     cryptographic security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash
>>>     function that is no longer considered to meet current security
>>>     requirements.
>>>
>>>     In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List
>>>     element 2. Session communication carried by TCP the following
>>>     statements is made:
>>>
>>>     "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide
>>>     for the authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>>>
>>>     "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by
>>>     some to be too weak for this application.  It also points out
>>>     that a similar TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it
>>>     cites SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowledge,
>>>     no such TCP option has been defined and deployed. However, we
>>>     note that LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are
>>>     available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and
>>>     implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
>>>     straightforward."
>>>
>>>     We note that BGP has already been through this process, and
>>>     replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to
>>>     follow the same approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we
>>>     are able to ascertain, there is currently no recommended,
>>>     mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified. We are
>>>     concerned that without such a mandatory function,
>>>     implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no
>>>     further forward
>>>
>>>     We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar
>>>     to RFC 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>>>
>>>     "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to
>>>     secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the
>>>     currently required TCP MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the
>>>     TBD cryptographic mechanism must be implemented and provided to
>>>     TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the
>>>     preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
>>>     unavailable."
>>>
>>>     We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems
>>>     that TCP security negotiation is still work in progress. If we
>>>     are wrong, then we need to include a requirement that such
>>>     negotiation is also required. In the absence of a negotiation
>>>     protocol, however, we need to leave this as a configuration
>>>     process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
>>>     complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we
>>>     need to issue a further update requiring its use.
>>>
>>>     Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has
>>>     an indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the
>>>     IETF anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism
>>>     over time.
>>>
>>>     The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such
>>>     that it can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route
>>>     processor, and which will provide adequate security without
>>>     significantly degrading the convergence time of an LSR. Without
>>>     a function that does not significantly impact router convergence
>>>     we simply close one vulnerability and open another.
>>>
>>>     As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms,
>>>     we  need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed
>>>     approach, and help correcting any misunderstanding of the
>>>     security issues or our misunderstanding of the existing security
>>>     mechanisms. We also need the recommendations of a suitable
>>>     security function (TBD in the above text).
>>>
>>>     Best regards
>>>
>>>     The MPLS WG Chairs
>>>     The PALS WG Chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> tcpm mailing list
>>> tcpm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


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    <p>An operator’s view here. Addressing multiple points in a single
      message here. <br>
      <br>
      Yes, the issue is with adoption. It is not being adopted because
      the problem solution does not necessary address the actual
      problem. <br>
      <br>
      Taking BGP as an example (and most of this applies to LDP as well)
      – we need to differentiate what security means in BGP context. Is
      it BGP transport security – the confidentiality of BGP messages
      exchanged between the peers (which MD5 or AO can address), or BGP
      information security – whether the peer is authorized to advertise
      a prefix and with what attributes (to which the presence or
      absence of MD5 and AO is orthogonal). <br>
      <br>
      Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a
      substitute for practical operational hygiene. If you have right
      confidentiality mechanism for BGP transport but do not implement
      proper edge filtering – you will run into problems. Not because
      there will be a compromise of BGP session transport, but because
      there will be a variety of DoS forms on the BGP component itself
      and the platform on which it is running. Proper edge filtering
      plus TTL validation is good enough and simple enough to be
      universally deployed, and MD5 option is used to validate that you
      are indeed speaking to the same peer to which you were speaking
      before the maintenance window, it is a form of a strong checksum.
      AO or BGP over TLS (dare I to say that :-) ) does nothing to
      address the BGP information security aspects of who is or is not
      allowed to advertise certain types of BGP routing information –
      which is the source of virtually all of practical (and successful)
      attacks happening in BGP context. This is the reason why AO or
      some other strong cryptographic mechanism for BGP transport
      session is not on the top of the list of operational worries, if
      at that list at all. RPKI family of solutions tries to address the
      BGP information security part. It tries, not necessary addresses
      it in a practical way. But that is above the session level
      security problems. <br>
      <br>
      Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a
      substitute for proper network design. Taking the DC example, if
      the attack vector is based on the tenant’s ability to interfere
      with BGP sessions used for controlling the topology that does not
      belong to the tenant – that is a broken network design, and it
      should be fixed first before trying to fix BGP itself. BGP is not
      at fault here, the design of the network that does not allow for
      sufficient isolation between entities is. No protocol is able to
      fix the design problems by itself. <br>
      <br>
      This does not mean that AO or some other transport security
      mechanism is not relevant or not needed. At least the solution for
      key rollover that is better than manual synchronization over phone
      is definitely of value. <br>
      <br>
      Ignas<br>
      <br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/11/2017 03:11, Jeff Tantsura
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:697AC959-60C2-401D-9E64-D88E16F35EBB@gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      Joe,
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>There’s no problem with updating, the problem is with
        adoption...<br>
        <br>
        <div id="AppleMailSignature">Regards,
          <div>Jeff</div>
        </div>
        <div><br>
          On Nov 11, 2017, at 08:48, Joe Touch &lt;<a
            href="mailto:touch@strayalpha.com" moz-do-not-send="true">touch@strayalpha.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div>
            <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
              charset=utf-8">
            <p>Hi, all,</p>
            <p>I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating
              TCP-AO to include/require other algorithms. It was
              intended to be extensible.</p>
            <p>I agree with the issue of key management. There was some
              work on extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage
              TCP-AO parameters and keys, but it stalled twice:</p>
            <p>M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman,
              U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
                href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt"
                moz-do-not-send="true">Negotiation for Keying Pairwise
                Routing Protocols in IKEv2</a>,” (RFC in progress), Nov.
              2013.</p>
            <p>U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt"
                moz-do-not-send="true">Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO</a>,”
              (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.</p>
            <p>AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the
              issues with its use outside routing environments where
              keys are already considered sufficiently managed.</p>
            <p>However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are
              no implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT).
              Designing a new solution simply to avoid implementing an
              existing one would be a significant waste of time.<br>
            </p>
            <p>Joe<br>
            </p>
            <br>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf,
              Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com">
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                <p class="MsoPlainText">+TCPM <o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">Please free to discuss changes
                  to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak up at the
                  upcoming TCPM meeting.<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">The addition of SHA-256 has been
                  discussed in TCPM already (see
                  draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not
                  much energy and no interest from potential TCP-AO
                  implementers or users.<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">(TCPM co-chair)<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
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                    <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
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                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [<a
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                          href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                        <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
                        <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00
                        PM<br>
                        <b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant <a
                          class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
                        <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a
                          class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>;
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>;
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:pals@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">pals@ietf.org</a>; <a
                          class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                        <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state
                        of play is, I think much like yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two
                        major respects:<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">- It has a bad
                        negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a
                        drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies
                        the algorithm<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">issue but not the key
                        management issue [0]. We haven't made much
                        progress on the key<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">management story, and that
                        seems to be a major impediment to deploying
                        either of these<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">technologies (which I am
                        given to understand don't see a lot of use). We
                        should probably<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">talk in Singapore about that,
                        but that's not going to get better any time
                        soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the
                        text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
                        "SHA-256", with<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256
                        -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better
                        support for rollover, but this is not a huge
                        improvement.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of
                        orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
                        opportunistic.  That said,<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">it would provide defense
                        against attackers who gain access to the link
                        after connection<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">setup and doesn't require
                        configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27
                        AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                      <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                        #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                        6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the SEC and
                          RTG ADs,<br>
                          <br>
                          I am sending the following message on behalf
                          of the MPLS and the<br>
                          PALS WG Chairs.<br>
                          <br>
                          There is a concern shared among the security
                          community and the working groups that develop
                          the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer
                          adequately secured. LDP currently relies on
                          MD5 for cryptographic security of its
                          messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is
                          no longer considered to meet current security
                          requirements.<br>
                          <br>
                          In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1
                          (Spoofing) , List element 2. Session
                          communication carried by TCP the following
                          statements is made:<br>
                          <br>
                          "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature
                          Option to provide for the authenticity and
                          integrity of session messages.<br>
                          <br>
                          "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is
                          now considered by some to be too weak for this
                          application.  It also points out that a
                          similar TCP option with a stronger hashing
                          algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could
                          be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP
                          option has been defined and deployed. 
                          However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP
                          message digest techniques are available, and
                          when one stronger than MD5 is specified and
                          implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be
                          relatively straightforward."<br>
                          <br>
                          We note that BGP has already been through this
                          process, and replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC
                          7454. I would be logical to follow the same
                          approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we
                          are able to ascertain, there is currently no
                          recommended, mandatory to implement,
                          cryptographic function specified. We are
                          concerned that without such a mandatory
                          function, implementations will simply fall
                          back to MD5 and we will be no further forward<br>
                          <br>
                          We think that the best way forward is to
                          publish a draft similar to RFC 7454 that
                          contains the following requirement:<br>
                          <br>
                          "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST
                          implement TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions
                          carrying LDP in addition to the currently
                          required TCP MD5 Signature Option.
                          Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism
                          must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to
                          secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the
                          preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used
                          when TBD is unavailable."<br>
                          <br>
                          We are not an experts on this part of the
                          stack, but it seems that TCP security
                          negotiation is still work in progress. If we
                          are wrong, then we need to include a
                          requirement that such negotiation is also
                          required. In the absence of a negotiation
                          protocol, however, we need to leave this as a
                          configuration process until such time as the
                          negotiation protocol work is complete. On
                          completion of a suitable negotiation protocol
                          we need to issue a further update requiring
                          its use.<br>
                          <br>
                          Additionally we should note that no
                          cryptographic mechanism has an indefinite
                          lifetime, and that implementation should note
                          the IETF anticipates updating the default
                          cryptographic mechanism over time.<br>
                          <br>
                          The TBD default security function will need to
                          be chosen such that it can reasonably be
                          implemented on a typical router route
                          processor, and which will provide adequate
                          security without significantly degrading the
                          convergence time of an LSR. Without a function
                          that does not significantly impact router
                          convergence we simply close one vulnerability
                          and open another.<br>
                          <br>
                          As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on
                          security mechanisms, we  need to ask the
                          security area for a review of our proposed
                          approach, and help correcting any
                          misunderstanding of the security issues or our
                          misunderstanding of the existing security
                          mechanisms. We also need the recommendations
                          of a suitable security function (TBD in the
                          above text).<br>
                          <br>
                          Best regards<br>
                          <br>
                          The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
                          The PALS WG Chairs<br>
                          <br>
                          <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
              <br>
              <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tcpm@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">tcpm@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm</a>
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
            <span>mpls mailing list</span><br>
            <span><a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a></span><br>
            <span><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls"
                moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></span><br>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:59:40 +0800
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Cc: Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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Mirja,

With respect to the second comment, since the behavior is defined in
RFC5661, in this case I think it is better to not be more explicit in this
document because it might confuse matters and be interpreted as specifying
behavior that is in some way different from RFC5661.

If it is OK with you, I will close out these two items without making
changes to the current text.

Thanks,
Chris

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) <ietf@kuehlewind.ne=
t
> wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> see below.
>
> > Am 07.11.2017 um 01:14 schrieb Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>:
> >
> > Mirja,
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback.  Responses are inline with [CB].
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja K=C3=BChle=
wind
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:37 AM
> > To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> > Cc: mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org;
> mpls-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: [mpls] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's No Objection on
> draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
> >
> > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.
> html
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 1) I was just wondering if it was considered to just use one flag of th=
e
> reserved field of the multi-topology extension in RFC7307 to advertise MR=
T
> support, given that MT must always advertised as well...?
> >
> > [CB]  I don't really understand the suggestion.  The document is
> requesting three values from the MPLS Multi-Topology Identifiers Registry
> (defined in RFC 7307). I think that we need all three, MRT-Red, MRT-Blue,
> and Rainbow MRT, for the protocol to work.  The registry has 64k possible
> values (with 4k being most useful), of which only 6 are currently used.
>
> I was thinking just about the MRT Capability Advertisement (use a flag
> instead of a new TLV Type, namely TBD-MRT-LDP-1). However this is not
> important...
>
> >
> > Or are you referring to the request for a value from the Label
> Distribution Protocol (LDP) Parameters registry "TLV Type Name Space"?
> >
> > 2) Why would a node withdraw the MRT capability/ when would it send a
> MRT advertisement with S=3D0?
> >
> > [CB]  As an example, a configuration change on the node to no longer
> participate in label distribution for MRT would generally result in a
> withdrawal of the MRT capability, which is done by setting S=3D0.  The
> document currently has a  reference to RFC 5661 "LDP Capabilities" for mo=
re
> information on this.  Do you think more text is needed in the document to
> clarify this?
>
> Not necessarily. But it always helps to be rather explicit than implicit.
> It might be good to note that this is send based on things like config
> changes and not based on state changes that are happening during usual
> operation. However, maybe this is more obvious to people who are more
> expert than I am.
>
> Mirja
>
> >
> > 3) If you update the document, please also see the gen-art review: ther=
e
> are many small nits which will probably also be caught by the RFC editor
> but if you can fix them now, that's even better!
> >
> > [CB]  Thanks.  I did that in a separate response.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mpls mailing list
> > mpls@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Mirja,<br><br>With respect to the second comment, sin=
ce the behavior is defined in RFC5661, in this case I think it is better to=
 not be more explicit in this document because it might confuse matters and=
 be interpreted as specifying behavior that is in some way different from R=
FC5661.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><div>If it is OK with you, I will cl=
ose out these two items without making changes to the current text.<br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>Thanks,<br></div>Chris<br><div><div><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Mi=
rja Kuehlewind (IETF) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@kuehlewi=
nd.net" target=3D"_blank">ietf@kuehlewind.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Chris,<br>
<br>
see below.<br>
<span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
&gt; Am 07.11.2017 um 01:14 schrieb Chris Bowers &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cbow=
ers@juniper.net">cbowers@juniper.net</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Mirja,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks for the feedback.=C2=A0 Responses are inline with [CB].<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Chris<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mpls-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mirja K=C3=BChlewind<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:37 AM<br>
&gt; To: The IESG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iesg@ietf.org">iesg@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org">draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.<wbr>org=
</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [mpls] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind&#39;s No Objection on draft-ietf-=
mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt; draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all =
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this int=
roductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss=
-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/i=
esg/<wbr>statement/discuss-criteria.<wbr>html</a><br>
&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br=
>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/=
draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; ------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>=
----------<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1) I was just wondering if it was considered to just use one flag of t=
he reserved field of the multi-topology extension in RFC7307 to advertise M=
RT support, given that MT must always advertised as well...?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [CB]=C2=A0 I don&#39;t really understand the suggestion.=C2=A0 The doc=
ument is requesting three values from the MPLS Multi-Topology Identifiers R=
egistry (defined in RFC 7307). I think that we need all three, MRT-Red, MRT=
-Blue, and Rainbow MRT, for the protocol to work.=C2=A0 The registry has 64=
k possible values (with 4k being most useful), of which only 6 are currentl=
y used.<br>
<br>
</span>I was thinking just about the MRT Capability Advertisement (use a fl=
ag instead of a new TLV Type, namely TBD-MRT-LDP-1). However this is not im=
portant...<br>
<span class=3D"gmail-"><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Or are you referring to the request for a value from the Label Distrib=
ution Protocol (LDP) Parameters registry &quot;TLV Type Name Space&quot;?<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 2) Why would a node withdraw the MRT capability/ when would it send a =
MRT advertisement with S=3D0?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [CB]=C2=A0 As an example, a configuration change on the node to no lon=
ger participate in label distribution for MRT would generally result in a w=
ithdrawal of the MRT capability, which is done by setting S=3D0.=C2=A0 The =
document currently has a=C2=A0 reference to RFC 5661 &quot;LDP Capabilities=
&quot; for more information on this.=C2=A0 Do you think more text is needed=
 in the document to clarify this?<br>
<br>
</span>Not necessarily. But it always helps to be rather explicit than impl=
icit. It might be good to note that this is send based on things like confi=
g changes and not based on state changes that are happening during usual op=
eration. However, maybe this is more obvious to people who are more expert =
than I am.<br>
<span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Mirja<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><div class=3D"gmail-h5"><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 3) If you update the document, please also see the gen-art review: the=
re are many small nits which will probably also be caught by the RFC editor=
 but if you can fix them now, that&#39;s even better!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [CB]=C2=A0 Thanks.=C2=A0 I did that in a separate response.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; mpls mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><b=
r>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>

--001a114fb5026d6393055dda5588--


From nobody Mon Nov 13 06:10:40 2017
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To: Ignas Bagdonas <ibagdona.ietf@gmail.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 06:10:21 -0800
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm] LDP Security
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On 11/13/2017 1:24 AM, Ignas Bagdonas wrote:
>
> An operator’s view here. Addressing multiple points in a single
> message here.
>
> Yes, the issue is with adoption. It is not being adopted because the
> problem solution does not necessary address the actual problem.
>
> Taking BGP as an example (and most of this applies to LDP as well) –
> we need to differentiate what security means in BGP context. Is it BGP
> transport security – the confidentiality of BGP messages exchanged
> between the peers (which MD5 or AO can address), or BGP information
> security – whether the peer is authorized to advertise a prefix and
> with what attributes (to which the presence or absence of MD5 and AO
> is orthogonal).
>
I had thought it was widely understood that there are two components to
protecting BGP:

        - TCP-AO - to protect the TCP connections from attack and
authenticate the endpoint pairs
        - BGPsec - to validate the authenticity of relayed prefix
advertisements and ensure its legitimacy

Is there a third aspect that isn't included here that you feel is
missing? Or do you feel one of these inadequate in performing *the
function it is designed for*?

Joe



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From: "Tarek Saad (tsaad)" <tsaad@cisco.com>
To: "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
Thread-Index: AdNUg1Cpe5dA+Y+xRUqVbHS1g/VoIAINOgYA
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 14:47:52 +0000
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:08:39 +0800
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Subject: [mpls] BFD in Segment Routed networks with MPLS data plane
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Dear SPRING WG,
the draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/> will be
presented today at MPLS WG meeting (Afternoon Session I). We welcome your
participation, comments, questions and suggestions at the mike and on the
mailing list (please address to both SPRING and MPLS WGs).

Regards,
Greg

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear SPRING WG,<div>the=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/">draft-mirsky-spring-bfd</a>=C2=A0w=
ill be presented today at MPLS WG meeting (Afternoon Session I). We welcome=
 your participation, comments, questions and suggestions at the mike and on=
 the mailing list (please address to both SPRING and MPLS WGs).</div><div><=
br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div>

--f403045f84389e6a7c055de7ddcd--


From nobody Mon Nov 13 22:56:55 2017
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:56:43 -0000
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Subject: [mpls] Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
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Hi Wim,
A couple of observations on the question you raised at the mic...

An entropy value can be preserved e2e, but it is by no means necessary to do so.

This shows at three points in a network...

1. UDP tunnel ends, new UDP tunnel starts
This the "normal" case. It is possible to conceive of storing the entropy value
and re-using it (but I don't think I would implement that). Each UDP tunnel is a
new tunnel and gets its own entropy value. Of course, if there is already an EL
in the stack, that can be extracted.

2. Previous hop is native MPLS-SR, next hop is UDP tunnel
This case is just like the tunnel between two islands (first use case). The UDP
entropy value can be pulled from an EL if one is in the stack or can be
generated locally. This is just 7510.

3. UDP tunnel ends, next hop is native MPLS-SR
This case is just like the tunnel between two islands (first use case). The
MPLS-SR entropy value might already be in an EL in the stack in which case,
nothing to do. Or an EL might need to be made in which case it could be stored
from the incoming UDP or freshly generated. This, too, is just as 7510.

The crunch is that if you are worried about making an entropy value at a transit
node (for example because it would involve too much processing or exceed the
RLD) then your head end should add an EL that will survive e2e because (as
noted) the SR stack persists just as normal for MPLS-SR.

Does that help?
I think we thought this was unnecessary to expose in the text, but if you think
adding this explanation would be useful, we can do it.

Thanks,
Adrian



From nobody Mon Nov 13 22:57:49 2017
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I send my second question on draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt according to co-chair's request
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Hi all,

My second question is what's the difference between the second MPLS-based S=
FC approach (draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt) and the MPLS-SR-based SFC approa=
ch (draft-xu-mpls-service-chaining) from the technology perspective.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=


From nobody Mon Nov 13 23:07:23 2017
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Xuxiaohu'" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] I send my second question on draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt according to co-chair's request
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Hi,

Yes, good question.

Both drafts describe a label stacking approach where two labels are used at each
hop.
The major difference is in how metadata is handled.
draft-xu-mpls-service-chaining uses an NSH at the bottom of the stack to
encapsulate the metadata. This has the benefit of re-using an existing
mechanism/encoding and also the benefit of placing the metadata in the same
packet as the user data. There are also some drawbacks as mentioned in the SFC
meeting: the particular concerns are about packet size and disruption,
encapsulation rules (is a control word used to make it clear that the NSH is
there and prevent accidental inspection of the NSH?), and interpretation of the
other NSH fields (e.g., what does the SI field in the NSH mean? what happens if
the NSH TTL is zero).

Do you see any other differences?

Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xuxiaohu
> Sent: 14 November 2017 06:58
> To: mpls@ietf.org
> Subject: [mpls] I send my second question on draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt
> according to co-chair's request
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> My second question is what's the difference between the second MPLS-based
> SFC approach (draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt) and the MPLS-SR-based SFC approach
> (draft-xu-mpls-service-chaining) from the technology perspective.
> 
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


From nobody Mon Nov 13 23:12:43 2017
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] I send my second question on draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt according to co-chair's request
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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
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From nobody Mon Nov 13 23:23:35 2017
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Henderickx, Wim \(Nokia - BE/Antwerp\)'" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
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OK, we'll add text.

And I think the message is "more or less" (TM) unchanged from the =
behavior for native MPLS-SR.

A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
> [mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com]
> Sent: 14 November 2017 07:15
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; mpls@ietf.org
> Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; jdrake@juniper.net; Jeff Tantsura
> Subject: Re: Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
>=20
> Adrian, good.
> My point is we should specify the behaviour in the draft.
> Your take is the ingress node of the SR-TE LSP should insert an =
entropy label in
> the stack based on RLD capabilities even though SRoUDP is used.
> Only when you use SRoUDP all the way we can avoid adding the entropy =
label.
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 14/11/2017, 14:56, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
>     Hi Wim,
>     A couple of observations on the question you raised at the mic...
>=20
>     An entropy value can be preserved e2e, but it is by no means =
necessary to do
> so.
>=20
>     This shows at three points in a network...
>=20
>     1. UDP tunnel ends, new UDP tunnel starts
>     This the "normal" case. It is possible to conceive of storing the =
entropy value
>     and re-using it (but I don't think I would implement that). Each =
UDP tunnel is a
>     new tunnel and gets its own entropy value. Of course, if there is =
already an EL
>     in the stack, that can be extracted.
>=20
>     2. Previous hop is native MPLS-SR, next hop is UDP tunnel
>     This case is just like the tunnel between two islands (first use =
case). The UDP
>     entropy value can be pulled from an EL if one is in the stack or =
can be
>     generated locally. This is just 7510.
>=20
>     3. UDP tunnel ends, next hop is native MPLS-SR
>     This case is just like the tunnel between two islands (first use =
case). The
>     MPLS-SR entropy value might already be in an EL in the stack in =
which case,
>     nothing to do. Or an EL might need to be made in which case it =
could be stored
>     from the incoming UDP or freshly generated. This, too, is just as =
7510.
>=20
>     The crunch is that if you are worried about making an entropy =
value at a transit
>     node (for example because it would involve too much processing or =
exceed the
>     RLD) then your head end should add an EL that will survive e2e =
because (as
>     noted) the SR stack persists just as normal for MPLS-SR.
>=20
>     Does that help?
>     I think we thought this was unnecessary to expose in the text, but =
if you think
>     adding this explanation would be useful, we can do it.
>=20
>     Thanks,
>     Adrian
>=20
>=20
>=20



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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
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From nobody Mon Nov 13 23:31:08 2017
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Xuxiaohu'" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>
References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047AF93@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com>,  <0e0501d35d17$2e8efc70$8bacf550$@olddog.co.uk> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047AFD2@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] I send my second question on draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt according to co-chair's request
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> [Xiaohu] Another difference I noticed that you rename the node segment label
> as context label :)

Oh yes.
Actually, there are two good reasons for that. The first is to reach parity with
the encoding for the label swapping approach. The second is to observe that
there would be other interpretations of an exposed context label (i.e., when an
SFF pops the two labels and finds the next "context label" that might be a node
segment label and it might be something else).

Oh, by the way, anycast sids may be pretty handy in SFC.

Adrian


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From nobody Tue Nov 14 00:35:11 2017
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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Henderickx, Wim \(Nokia - BE/Antwerp\)'" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>
References: <0df801d35d15$bd7dc8f0$38795ad0$@olddog.co.uk> <4879222B-FDB4-4CFB-899E-C622F392EE83@nokia.com> <0e0c01d35d19$76c4a240$644de6c0$@olddog.co.uk> <3BFDC77B-4BA7-47F1-B7F4-BC7696597B42@nokia.com>
In-Reply-To: <3BFDC77B-4BA7-47F1-B7F4-BC7696597B42@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 08:16:37 -0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
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Yeah, OK.
The point is we *do* use src port for entropy on the UDP tunnel, but we =
have to drag that value from somewhere or create it.

We'll throw some text together.

A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
> [mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com]
> Sent: 14 November 2017 07:31
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; mpls@ietf.org
> Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; jdrake@juniper.net; 'Jeff Tantsura'
> Subject: Re: Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
>=20
> I agree but the draft claims we can do src udp port for entropy label =
and hence
> people might forget this. Hence why I believe its important to define =
this
> behaviour explicitly.
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 14/11/2017, 15:23, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
>     OK, we'll add text.
>=20
>     And I think the message is "more or less" (TM) unchanged from the =
behavior
> for native MPLS-SR.
>=20
>     A
>=20
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
>     > [mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com]
>     > Sent: 14 November 2017 07:15
>     > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; mpls@ietf.org
>     > Cc: stewart.bryant@gmail.com; jdrake@juniper.net; Jeff Tantsura
>     > Subject: Re: Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
>     >
>     > Adrian, good.
>     > My point is we should specify the behaviour in the draft.
>     > Your take is the ingress node of the SR-TE LSP should insert an =
entropy label
> in
>     > the stack based on RLD capabilities even though SRoUDP is used.
>     > Only when you use SRoUDP all the way we can avoid adding the =
entropy
> label.
>     >
>     >
>     > On 14/11/2017, 14:56, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> =
wrote:
>     >
>     >     Hi Wim,
>     >     A couple of observations on the question you raised at the =
mic...
>     >
>     >     An entropy value can be preserved e2e, but it is by no means =
necessary to
> do
>     > so.
>     >
>     >     This shows at three points in a network...
>     >
>     >     1. UDP tunnel ends, new UDP tunnel starts
>     >     This the "normal" case. It is possible to conceive of =
storing the entropy
> value
>     >     and re-using it (but I don't think I would implement that). =
Each UDP tunnel
> is a
>     >     new tunnel and gets its own entropy value. Of course, if =
there is already an
> EL
>     >     in the stack, that can be extracted.
>     >
>     >     2. Previous hop is native MPLS-SR, next hop is UDP tunnel
>     >     This case is just like the tunnel between two islands (first =
use case). The
> UDP
>     >     entropy value can be pulled from an EL if one is in the =
stack or can be
>     >     generated locally. This is just 7510.
>     >
>     >     3. UDP tunnel ends, next hop is native MPLS-SR
>     >     This case is just like the tunnel between two islands (first =
use case). The
>     >     MPLS-SR entropy value might already be in an EL in the stack =
in which case,
>     >     nothing to do. Or an EL might need to be made in which case =
it could be
> stored
>     >     from the incoming UDP or freshly generated. This, too, is =
just as 7510.
>     >
>     >     The crunch is that if you are worried about making an =
entropy value at a
> transit
>     >     node (for example because it would involve too much =
processing or exceed
> the
>     >     RLD) then your head end should add an EL that will survive =
e2e because (as
>     >     noted) the SR stack persists just as normal for MPLS-SR.
>     >
>     >     Does that help?
>     >     I think we thought this was unnecessary to expose in the =
text, but if you
> think
>     >     adding this explanation would be useful, we can do it.
>     >
>     >     Thanks,
>     >     Adrian
>     >
>     >
>     >
>=20
>=20
>=20



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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Henderickx, Wim \(Nokia - BE/Antwerp\)'" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "'Xuxiaohu'" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, <mpls@ietf.org>
References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047AF93@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <0e0501d35d17$2e8efc70$8bacf550$@olddog.co.uk> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047AFD2@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1071885B-85B2-4DFF-BEFC-20987B6CA79D@nokia.com>
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 08:16:37 -0000
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Agree with you about "NSH in MPLS" encapsulation. Needs specification.

The control plane discussion is (I think) and SR vs swapping discussion. =
The CP can be used for NSH or MPLS swapping (noting that NSH is a =
swapping paradigm).

The CP can (and should) be used to describe what happens at each hop =
(i.e., NSH, MPLS, foo). IIRC that is in the BESS draft.

And you may note that I support the BESS draft :-)

A

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
> [mailto:wim.henderickx@nokia.com]
> Sent: 14 November 2017 07:30
> To: Xuxiaohu; adrian@olddog.co.uk; mpls@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [mpls] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: I send my second question on =
draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-
> 02.txt according to co-chair's request
>=20
> In general, there is a 3rd approach which should be added to the =
discussion here.
> The 3rd approach is doing all in the control plane and use MPLS/SPRING =
as a way
> to get from one SFF to another. Example: =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-
> bess-service-chaining-03
>=20
> Can we discuss why complicating the data plane for this is a good idea =
and what
> value it brings over doing it in control plane.
>=20
> Irrespective of this we will need a way to encapsulate NSH with MPLS =
transport
> and how we signal, this irrespective of the above
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 14/11/2017, 15:12, "mpls on behalf of Xuxiaohu" =
<mpls-bounces@ietf.org on
> behalf of xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>     ________________________________________
>     =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Adrian Farrel [adrian@olddog.co.uk]
>     =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: =
2017=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8814=E6=97=A5 15:07
>     =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xuxiaohu; mpls@ietf.org
>     =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [mpls] I send my second question on =
draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt
> according to co-chair's request
>=20
>     Hi,
>=20
>     Yes, good question.
>=20
>     Both drafts describe a label stacking approach where two labels =
are used at
> each
>     hop.
>     The major difference is in how metadata is handled.
>     draft-xu-mpls-service-chaining uses an NSH at the bottom of the =
stack to
>     encapsulate the metadata. This has the benefit of re-using an =
existing
>     mechanism/encoding and also the benefit of placing the metadata in =
the same
>     packet as the user data. There are also some drawbacks as =
mentioned in the
> SFC
>     meeting: the particular concerns are about packet size and =
disruption,
>     encapsulation rules (is a control word used to make it clear that =
the NSH is
>     there and prevent accidental inspection of the NSH?), and =
interpretation of the
>     other NSH fields (e.g., what does the SI field in the NSH mean? =
what happens if
>     the NSH TTL is zero).
>=20
>     [Xiaohu] Thanks a lot for your clarification about the difference.
>=20
>     Do you see any other differences?
>=20
>     [Xiaohu] Another difference I noticed that you rename the node =
segment label
> as context label :)
>=20
>     Best regards,
>     Xiaohu
>=20
>     Adrian
>=20
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xuxiaohu
>     > Sent: 14 November 2017 06:58
>     > To: mpls@ietf.org
>     > Subject: [mpls] I send my second question on =
draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt
>     > according to co-chair's request
>     >
>     > Hi all,
>     >
>     > My second question is what's the difference between the second =
MPLS-
> based
>     > SFC approach (draft-farrel-mpls-sfc-02.txt) and the =
MPLS-SR-based SFC
> approach
>     > (draft-xu-mpls-service-chaining) from the technology =
perspective.
>     >
>     > Best regards,
>     > Xiaohu
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > mpls mailing list
>     > mpls@ietf.org
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>     _______________________________________________
>     mpls mailing list
>     mpls@ietf.org
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>=20



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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Entropy in MPLS-SR-over-UDP
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From: "Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:43:55 +0800
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org>,  The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls]  =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-?= =?utf-8?q?ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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That was just a comment. Just do the right thing=E2=80=A6

> Am 13.11.2017 um 17:59 schrieb Chris Bowers =
<chrisbowers.ietf@gmail.com>:
>=20
> Mirja,
>=20
> With respect to the second comment, since the behavior is defined in =
RFC5661, in this case I think it is better to not be more explicit in =
this document because it might confuse matters and be interpreted as =
specifying behavior that is in some way different from RFC5661. =20
>=20
> If it is OK with you, I will close out these two items without making =
changes to the current text.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Chris
>=20
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind (IETF) =
<ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>=20
> see below.
>=20
> > Am 07.11.2017 um 01:14 schrieb Chris Bowers <cbowers@juniper.net>:
> >
> > Mirja,
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback.  Responses are inline with [CB].
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja =
K=C3=BChlewind
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:37 AM
> > To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> > Cc: mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt@ietf.org; =
mpls-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: [mpls] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's No Objection on =
draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: (with COMMENT)
> >
> > Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-06: No Objection
> >
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this introductory paragraph, however.)
> >
> >
> > Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >
> >
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/
> >
> >
> >
> > =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 1) I was just wondering if it was considered to just use one flag of =
the reserved field of the multi-topology extension in RFC7307 to =
advertise MRT support, given that MT must always advertised as well...?
> >
> > [CB]  I don't really understand the suggestion.  The document is =
requesting three values from the MPLS Multi-Topology Identifiers =
Registry (defined in RFC 7307). I think that we need all three, MRT-Red, =
MRT-Blue, and Rainbow MRT, for the protocol to work.  The registry has =
64k possible values (with 4k being most useful), of which only 6 are =
currently used.
>=20
> I was thinking just about the MRT Capability Advertisement (use a flag =
instead of a new TLV Type, namely TBD-MRT-LDP-1). However this is not =
important...
>=20
> >
> > Or are you referring to the request for a value from the Label =
Distribution Protocol (LDP) Parameters registry "TLV Type Name Space"?
> >
> > 2) Why would a node withdraw the MRT capability/ when would it send =
a MRT advertisement with S=3D0?
> >
> > [CB]  As an example, a configuration change on the node to no longer =
participate in label distribution for MRT would generally result in a =
withdrawal of the MRT capability, which is done by setting S=3D0.  The =
document currently has a  reference to RFC 5661 "LDP Capabilities" for =
more information on this.  Do you think more text is needed in the =
document to clarify this?
>=20
> Not necessarily. But it always helps to be rather explicit than =
implicit. It might be good to note that this is send based on things =
like config changes and not based on state changes that are happening =
during usual operation. However, maybe this is more obvious to people =
who are more expert than I am.
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
> >
> > 3) If you update the document, please also see the gen-art review: =
there are many small nits which will probably also be caught by the RFC =
editor but if you can fix them now, that's even better!
> >
> > [CB]  Thanks.  I did that in a separate response.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mpls mailing list
> > mpls@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>=20


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, 'Xuxiaohu' <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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From: Ina Minei <inaminei@google.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 11:11:40 +0100
Message-ID: <CAG4Q_atyAOTg3bziY6sJAjXRdzLJ-bURE5bUF+O_K6NTUmrUVQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Tarek Saad (tsaad)" <tsaad@cisco.com>
Cc: "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/dU0p0yfZWmjaPdWSTnAQ-9BRcNM>
Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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--94eb2c0c3ce806119a055dee9d2e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I am not aware of any additional IPR other than what was disclosed and that
applies to this draft.

ina

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Tarek Saad (tsaad) <tsaad@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I am not aware of any additional IPR other than what was disclosed and
> that applies to this draft.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Tarek
>
>
>
> *From: *"N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>
> *Date: *Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:01 AM
> *To: *"mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <
> mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <
> draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
> *Resent-From: *<alias-bounces@ietf.org>
> *Resent-To: *<csekar@juniper.net>, <inaminei@google.com>, <
> dante.j.pacella@verizon.com>, Tarek Saad <tsaad@cisco.com>
> *Resent-Date: *Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:01 AM
>
>
>
> Working Group,
>
>
>
> We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group
> last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.
>
>
>
> This is to start the IPR Poll.
>
>
>
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?
>
>
>
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see
> RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
>
>
> Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual
> document:
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/
>
>
>
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR.
> *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document
> will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from
> each author and contributor.
>
>
>
> If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
> IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
>
>
> Nic
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--94eb2c0c3ce806119a055dee9d2e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:16px">I am not aware of any addit=
ional IPR other than what was disclosed and that applies to this draft.</sp=
an><br><div><span style=3D"font-size:16px"><br></span></div><div><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:16px">ina</span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Tarek Saad (tsaa=
d) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tsaad@cisco.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">tsaad@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_1955985319498174129WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi all,<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I am not aware of a=
ny additional IPR other than what was disclosed and that applies to this dr=
aft.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Regards,<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Tarek<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&quot;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:N.Leymann@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">N.Leymann@telekom.de</a>&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">N.Leymann@te=
lekom.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:01 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpl=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-mp=
ls-ri-rsvp-frr@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-mpl=
s-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@<wbr>=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject: </b>IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr<br>
</span><b>Resent-From: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alias-bounces@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">alias-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Resent-To: </b>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:csekar@juniper.net" target=3D"_blan=
k">csekar@juniper.net</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:inaminei@google.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">inaminei@google.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dante.j=
.pacella@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">dante.j.pacella@verizon.com</a>&gt;=
, Tarek Saad &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tsaad@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">tsaad=
@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Resent-Date: </b>Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:01 AM<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Working Group,<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">We are currently prepar=
ing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group last call. We will do an =
IPR poll prior to the wglc.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">This is to start the IP=
R Poll.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Are you aware of any IP=
R that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">If so, has this IPR bee=
n disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 an=
d 5378 for more details).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Please note that there =
is already one IPR disclosed for the individual document:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><a href=3D"https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
<wbr>ipr/2580/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">If you are listed as a =
document author or contributor please respond to this email regardless of w=
hether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. *The response needs to be =
sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The
 document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been rece=
ived from each author and contributor.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">If you are on the MPLS =
WG email list but are not listed as an author or contributor, then please e=
xplicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been di=
sclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Best regards<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Nic<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0c3ce806119a055dee9d2e--


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Reply-To: huubatwork@gmail.com
To: mpls@ietf.org
References: <CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Huub van Helvoort <huubatwork@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] RMR updates
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hello Kireeti,<br>
      <br>
      You wrote:<br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">We'd like to move to last call on the RMR document,
        but first there are a couple of loose ends we'd like to tie up,
        specifically, the "Advanced topics" in the -05 version of the
        draft.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>a) how should the RMR document deal with "half-rings"?</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Consider the following half-ring:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><font face="monospace, monospace">    A    B</font></div>
        <div><font face="monospace, monospace">    |    |</font></div>
        <div><font face="monospace, monospace">    C----D</font></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <font face="monospace, monospace">To me this is the same as a linear
      topology:<br>
      A--C--D--B<br>
      <br>
      A ring topology is a closed loop.<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Here are some options:</div>
        <div>i) the RMR document shouldn't concern itself with this case</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    yes, because it is not a ring<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>ii) create a PW from A to B to complete the ring</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    no, closing the ring should be at lower layers<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>ii) instead of creating N LSPs (in this case 4), only
          create LSPs from A to B and from B to A.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    maybe, but with the requirement that these two LSPs shall not pass<br>
    through nodes C and D to avoid single points of failure <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>b) how should the RMR document deal with protecting hub
          nodes?</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    they should be considered to be "normal" ring nodes and protected as
    such<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>i) not deal with it.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    no<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>ii) use technology akin to PIC edge</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    I am not familiar with this.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABRz93VbAs6L-yo=WvibnujJfy_aW50qEbbTLszRCnJ5qBfRJA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>We feel that it is important to address both these issues.
          We are soliciting your response, either among the options
          suggested, or potentially other ideas.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    My 0.02€<br>
    <br>
    Best regards, Huub.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
================================================================
Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...</pre>
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From nobody Tue Nov 14 05:32:59 2017
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From: Markus Jork <mjork@juniper.net>
To: "N.Leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/FleFn7Or81909d2RIVnnkp_u8rw>
Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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I am a contributor to the I-D. Yes, I am aware of IPR that applies to draft=
-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr. It has been disclosed according to IETF IPR rules a=
t the already mentioned URL:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/

-Markus


From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of N.Leymann@telekom.de
Sent: Saturday, November 4, 2017 5:01 AM
To: mpls-chairs@ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.o=
rg
Subject: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr

Working Group,
=A0
We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group la=
st call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.
=A0
This is to start the IPR Poll.
=A0
Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?
=A0
If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R=
FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
=A0
Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual docu=
ment:
=A0
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org=
_ipr_2580_&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3Df=
LFDAppNmRUU27kEecTbOmTq2DbWEvpk5Bi3b4So-iU&m=3DWKtkVGydYvnreJeI8rx6XvN0B13I=
WCL8vtipZ9KGzPo&s=3DNVsctBY4iPEKmw-fR1cvjReM5QTxy7Ychphn-Tz0EOY&e=3D
=A0
If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to thi=
s email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. *Th=
e response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document will=
 not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each=
 author and contributor.
=A0
If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or con=
tributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR t=
hat has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
=A0
Best regards
=A0
Nic
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0
=A0


From nobody Tue Nov 14 13:48:01 2017
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Subject: [mpls] I-D Action: draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Multiprotocol Label Switching WG of the IETF.

        Title           : LDP Extensions to Support Maximally Redundant Trees
        Authors         : Alia Atlas
                          Kishore Tiruveedhula
                          Chris Bowers
                          Jeff Tantsura
                          IJsbrand Wijnands
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-07.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2017-11-14

Abstract:
   This document specifies extensions to the Label Distribution
   Protocol(LDP) to support the creation of label-switched paths for
   Maximally Redundant Trees (MRT).  A prime use of MRTs is for unicast
   and multicast IP/LDP Fast-Reroute, which we will refer to as MRT-FRR.

   The sole protocol extension to LDP is simply the ability to advertise
   an MRT Capability.  This document describes that extension and the
   associated behavior expected for LSRs (Label Switching Routers) and
   LERs (Label Edge Routers) advertising the MRT Capability.

   MRT-FRR uses LDP multi-topology extensions and requires three
   different multi-topology IDs to be allocated from the MPLS MT-ID
   space.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mpls-ldp-mrt-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From: "Faisal Iqbal (faiqbal)" <faiqbal@cisco.com>
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg@ietf.org" <draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Re: I-D Action: draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg-06.txt
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:27:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] I-D Action: draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg-06.txt
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--_000_005300d0a6d84a448fab94dfc6e9759fXCHRTP013ciscocom_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Dear Authors,
Thank you for initiating the work on Yang Model for LSP Ping and sharing yo=
ur draft. I have gone through the document and find it very useful and impo=
rtant work item. Please see below for some comments on the document. I'm st=
ill a beginner in Yang modeling so I apologize if I'm missing something obv=
ious or well-understood.

Sec 3.1 - I think the document aims to specify various existing MPLS OAM ta=
rgets (including P2MP) through a combination of target-fec-type and target-=
fec structure. Is my understanding correct?

Sec 3.1 - I did not find a way to specify some important parameters in the =
container control-info that operators can use to control echo request path =
or other parameters. Specifically:

i.                 Operator should be allowed to specify RSVP interface by =
tunnel name as well. For some operators, name may be more meaningful than t=
unnel number.

ii.                A field to provide a destination address in 127/8 range.

iii.               An option to specify a range of destination addresses to=
 test e.g. give destination start address 127.0.0.1 and end address 127.0.0=
.8, system will initiate 8 echo requests correspondingly.

iv.               Given that TTL is a field in the container control-info, =
I feel that operator should be given an option to specify whether or not to=
 use Downstream Detailed Mapping (DDMAP) TLV, or even the deprecated DSMAP =
TLV.

v.                Operator should also be allowed to specify DDMAP TLV sub-=
TLV fields such as the presence, type, and size of multipath TLV.

Sec 3.3 - I had following questions about the result-info structure.

i.                 If the echo reply contains a TLV (e.g. DDMAP TLV for req=
uest to a transit node), how will we communicate that information to the us=
er? Operator may use LSP Ping to identify downstream path(s) from a particu=
lar downstream node.

ii.                What does probe-index refer to?

Sec 6 - For target-fec-type, is there a way for operator to specify a parti=
cular control plane or FEC (as defined in RFC-8029 e.g. LDP, Generic FEC et=
c.) to be used for echo request?

Does this document only tackle LSP Ping operation? Would other echo request=
 operations such as LSP Traceroute for LSP path discovery be documented sep=
arately?

Some minor editorial comments below.
-"Model presented in [RFC4560];" instead of "Model presented in[RFC4560] ;"=
 in Section 1.2
-Text in Section 3 should read "...and result information for multiple inst=
ances of LSP-Ping test." Instead of "...and result information for multi in=
stances of LSP-Ping test."
- "IETF Multiprotocol" instead of ""IETF Multiprotocl" in Section 6.
-Description for enum success should read "The test probe is successful" in=
stead "The test probe is successed"
-Description for leaf sum-of-squares in Section 6 should read "replies" ins=
tead of "replys"

Regards,
Faisal Iqbal

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Authors,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you for initiating the work on Yang Model for =
LSP Ping and sharing your draft. I have gone through the document and find =
it very useful and important work item. Please see below for some comments =
on the document. I&#8217;m still a beginner
 in Yang modeling so I apologize if I&#8217;m missing something obvious or =
well-understood.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.1 &#8211; I think the document aims to specify=
 various existing MPLS OAM targets (including P2MP) through a combination o=
f target-fec-type and target-fec structure. Is my understanding correct?<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.1 &#8211; I did not find a way to specify some=
 important parameters in the container control-info that operators can use =
to control echo request path or other parameters. Specifically:<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;=
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">i.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Operator should be allowed to specify RSVP interfac=
e by tunnel name as well. For some operators, name may be more meaningful t=
han tunnel number.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;=
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">ii.<span style=3D"font=
:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>A field to provide a destination address in 127/8 r=
ange.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;=
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">iii.<span style=3D"fon=
t:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>An option to specify a range of destination address=
es to test e.g. give destination start address 127.0.0.1 and end address 12=
7.0.0.8, system will initiate 8 echo requests correspondingly.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;=
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">iv.<span style=3D"font=
:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Given that TTL is a field in the container control-=
info, I feel that operator should be given an option to specify whether or =
not to use Downstream Detailed Mapping (DDMAP) TLV, or even the deprecated =
DSMAP TLV.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;=
mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">v.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Operator should also be allowed to specify DDMAP TL=
V sub-TLV fields such as the presence, type, and size of multipath TLV.<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.3 &#8211; I had following questions about the =
result-info structure.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;=
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">i.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>If the echo reply contains a TLV (e.g. DDMAP TLV fo=
r request to a transit node), how will we communicate that information to t=
he user? Operator may use LSP Ping to identify downstream path(s) from a pa=
rticular downstream node.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.5in;=
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">ii.<span style=3D"font=
:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>What does probe-index refer to?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 6 &#8211; For target-fec-type, is there a way fo=
r operator to specify a particular control plane or FEC (as defined in RFC-=
8029 e.g. LDP, Generic FEC etc.) to be used for echo request?<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does this document only tackle LSP Ping operation? W=
ould other echo request operations such as LSP Traceroute for LSP path disc=
overy be documented separately?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some minor editorial comments below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-&#8220;Model presented in [RFC4560];&#8221; instead=
 of &#8220;Model presented in[RFC4560] ;&#8221; in Section 1.2<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Text in Section 3 should read &#8220;&#8230;and res=
ult information for multiple instances of LSP-Ping test.&#8221; Instead of =
&#8220;&#8230;and result information for multi instances of LSP-Ping test.&=
#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- &quot;IETF Multiprotocol&#8221; instead of &#8220;=
&quot;IETF Multiprotocl&#8221; in Section 6.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Description for enum success should read &#8220;The=
 test probe is successful&#8221; instead &#8220;The test probe is successed=
&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Description for leaf sum-of-squares in Section 6 sh=
ould read &#8220;replies&#8221; instead of &#8220;replys&#8221;<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Faisal Iqbal<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_005300d0a6d84a448fab94dfc6e9759fXCHRTP013ciscocom_--


From nobody Tue Nov 14 19:39:42 2017
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From: Sandra Murphy <sandy@tislabs.com>
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Subject: [mpls] RFC5036 and "exceeds" / "reaches" limits on send and receive
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I am reading RFC5036, the LDP spec.

I=E2=80=99m finding the language about the loop detection to be a bit =
ambiguous.

The text varies as to whether a loop is detected when something =
=E2=80=9Cexceeds=E2=80=9D the limit or when something =E2=80=9Creaches=E2=80=
=9D the limit.

Some examples below.

I read the algorithms in the Appendix as requiring a check for =
=E2=80=9Cexceeds=E2=80=9D on receipt, but no check for either =
=E2=80=9Cexceeds=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Creaches=E2=80=9D on send. I =
don=E2=80=99t see a requirement when sending any message to check the =
hop count or the path vector length to see if it has reached/exceeded =
the limit.  [The Appendix A procedure descriptions are said to take =
precedence over any description in the text.]

Does that mean that an LSR might send a message that was doomed to be =
rejected upon receipt?  Is that the intent?

For the hop count in particular - the hop count field, if I read the =
spec correctly, is one octet, so a maximum value of 255.  I have not =
found a requirement that the =E2=80=9Cconfigured maximum value=E2=80=9D =
for the hop count MUST be strictly less than the Hop Count TLV=E2=80=99s =
largest possible hop count value.

So if an LSR is propagating a Label Request message that had a hop count =
of 255, it should increment the hop count when sending to its neighbor.  =
What happens then - what value is sent?  I don=E2=80=99t see this =
covered in the Appendix=E2=80=99s algorithms, and the text is ambiguous.

If an LSR is checking to see if a received message=E2=80=99s Hop Count =
TLV has a HC Value that exceeds the =E2=80=9Cconfigured maximum =
value=E2=80=9D, and the configured maximum value is configured to be =
255, would the test ever succeed?

I figure I=E2=80=99ve missed something fundamental, as implementors =
would have to have figured this out.  And the usual configured maximum =
values are not going to push either limit.  But still, it would be good =
to understand.

Thanks.

=E2=80=94Sandy

Some examples of =E2=80=9Cexceeds=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Creaches=E2=80=9D


Section 2.8.2, p 26

      If R receives a Label Mapping message from its next hop with a Hop
      Count TLV that exceeds the configured maximum value, or with a
      Path Vector TLV containing its own LSR Id or that exceeds the
      maximum allowable length, then R detects that the corresponding
      LSP contains a loop.

Section 3.4.4.1, p 40

   If an LSR receives a message containing a Hop Count TLV, it MUST
   check the hop count value to determine whether the hop count has
   exceeded its configured maximum allowable value.  If so, it MUST
   behave as if the containing message has traversed a loop by sending a
   Notification message signaling Loop Detected in reply to the sender
   of the message.


Section 2.8, p 23

                                               an LSR that detects a
         Path Vector has reached the maximum length behaves as if the
         containing message has traversed a loop.

         An LSR that detects a Hop Count has reached a configured
         maximum value behaves as if the containing message has
         traversed a loop.

<In this case, there=E2=80=99s no indication if the LSR is checking the =
maximum on receipt of
a message or on sending after having incremented the value.>

Section 3.4.5.1.1, p 42

   Note that a Label Request message with a Path Vector TLV is forwarded
   until:

      1. A loop is found,

      2. The LSP egress is reached, or

      3. The maximum Path Vector limit or maximum Hop Count limit is
         reached.  This is treated as if a loop had been detected.=


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Hi Kireeti, et. al,
I concur with Huub in regard to leaving half-ring (or arc) outside of scope
of RMR document.
I suspect that PIC stands for prefix-independent convergence (edge)
<https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/example/bgp-pic-e=
dge.html>.
I think a'la PIC approach may be mentioned in RMR docuemnt but I don't see
the benefit of making it part of the standard solution.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 7:34 PM, Huub van Helvoort <huubatwork@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello Kireeti,
>
> You wrote:
>
> We'd like to move to last call on the RMR document, but first there are a
> couple of loose ends we'd like to tie up, specifically, the "Advanced
> topics" in the -05 version of the draft.
>
> a) how should the RMR document deal with "half-rings"?
>
> Consider the following half-ring:
>
>     A    B
>     |    |
>     C----D
>
> To me this is the same as a linear topology:
> A--C--D--B
>
> A ring topology is a closed loop.
>
> Here are some options:
> i) the RMR document shouldn't concern itself with this case
>
> yes, because it is not a ring
>
> ii) create a PW from A to B to complete the ring
>
> no, closing the ring should be at lower layers
>
> ii) instead of creating N LSPs (in this case 4), only create LSPs from A
> to B and from B to A.
>
> maybe, but with the requirement that these two LSPs shall not pass
> through nodes C and D to avoid single points of failure
>
>
> b) how should the RMR document deal with protecting hub nodes?
>
> they should be considered to be "normal" ring nodes and protected as such
>
> i) not deal with it.
>
> no
>
> ii) use technology akin to PIC edge
>
> I am not familiar with this.
>
> We feel that it is important to address both these issues. We are
> soliciting your response, either among the options suggested, or
> potentially other ideas.
>
> My 0.02=E2=82=AC
>
> Best regards, Huub.
>
>
> --
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Kireeti, et. al,<div>I concur with Huub in regard to le=
aving half-ring (or arc) outside of scope of RMR document.</div><div>I susp=
ect that PIC stands for<a href=3D"https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_=
US/junos/topics/example/bgp-pic-edge.html"> prefix-independent convergence =
(edge)</a>. I think a&#39;la PIC approach may be mentioned in RMR docuemnt =
but I don&#39;t see the benefit of making it part of the standard solution.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 7:34 PM=
, Huub van Helvoort <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huubatwork@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">huubatwork@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div class=3D"m_682910151052876511moz-cite-prefix">Hello Kireeti,<br>
      <br>
      You wrote:<br>
      <br>
    </div><span class=3D"">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">We&#39;d like to move to last call on the RMR docume=
nt,
        but first there are a couple of loose ends we&#39;d like to tie up,
        specifically, the &quot;Advanced topics&quot; in the -05 version of=
 the
        draft.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>a) how should the RMR document deal with &quot;half-rings&quot=
;?</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Consider the following half-ring:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0B</font></div>
        <div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|</font></div>
        <div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 C----D</font=
></div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </span><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">To me this is the same as a =
linear
      topology:<br>
      A--C--D--B<br>
      <br>
      A ring topology is a closed loop.<br>
      <br>
    </font><span class=3D"">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>Here are some options:</div>
        <div>i) the RMR document shouldn&#39;t concern itself with this cas=
e</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    yes, because it is not a ring<span class=3D""><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>ii) create a PW from A to B to complete the ring</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    no, closing the ring should be at lower layers<span class=3D""><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>ii) instead of creating N LSPs (in this case 4), only
          create LSPs from A to B and from B to A.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    maybe, but with the requirement that these two LSPs shall not pass<br>
    through nodes C and D to avoid single points of failure <br><span class=
=3D"">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>b) how should the RMR document deal with protecting hub
          nodes?</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    they should be considered to be &quot;normal&quot; ring nodes and prote=
cted as
    such<span class=3D""><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>i) not deal with it.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    no<span class=3D""><br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>ii) use technology akin to PIC edge</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    I am not familiar with this.<span class=3D""><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div>We feel that it is important to address both these issues.
          We are soliciting your response, either among the options
          suggested, or potentially other ideas.</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote></span>
    My 0.02=E2=82=AC<br>
    <br>
    Best regards, Huub.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class=3D"m_682910151052876511moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<wbr>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<wbr>=3D=3D=3D=3D
Always remember that you are unique...just like everyone else...</pre>
  </font></span></div>


<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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To: pals@ietf.org, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
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Copying the thread to MPLS to include them in the discussion.

Please will copy future discussion to MPLS on this topic.

Thanks

Stewart


On 15/11/2017 06:14, Shah, Himanshu wrote:
>
> Hi Sasha –
>
> I understand that and I do not want to belabor my point.
>
> So just to clarify my point, you can view MS-PW as “PW-LSP”
>
> with S-PE as “PW-LSR”. In that context, ELI/EL below PW label,
>
> makes sense.
>
> FAT PW RFC predates the ELI/EL, but if that was not the case,
>
> ELI/EL easily would have been used as the solution the way I describe 
> above.
>
> But that is all water under the bridge.
>
> So, let us move on.
>
> On the follow on topic on the guideline,
>
> Where we say “when both are supported ONLY ONE (ELI/EL or FAT label) 
> SHOULD be used”.
>
> Since FAT label does not protect from ECMP based on DPI beyond PW CW, 
> BOTH schemes are
>
> required since FAT label suffers same mis-ordering consequences.
>
> In addition, S-PE MUST preserve and/or regenerate ELI/EL above PW label,
>
> If WG chose to provide guidelines on how to avoid mi-ordering in the 
> presence of such switches.
>
> /Thanks,/
>
> /Himanshu/
>
> *From: *"Alexander com>" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM
> *To: *"pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>
> Himanshu,
>
> Of course EL/ELI can be placed anywhere in the stack. But it can only 
> be inserted if the Egress LSR for the tunnel supports it. And in MS-PW 
> each S-PE terminates the tunnel LSP.
>
> From my POV flow labels are the ONLY right mechanism for adding 
> entropy to MS-PWs end-to-end.
>
> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Shah, Himanshu <hshah@ciena.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 15, 2017 3:24:54 AM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein; pals@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>
> Hi Shasha,
>
> You are correct about how it is written in RFC 6790.
>
> I did talk to Kireeti briefly in the hallway about placement of ELI/EL 
> and MS-PW.
>
> He also did say the same but he also said that it does not matter 
> where you place it,
>
> as far as processing of the ELI/EL, would work irrespective.
>
> MS-PW technology throws the monkey ranch.
>
> One could just support 6790 and not 6391 for PW if ELI/EL placed below 
> PW label.
>
> It solves preservation of entropy across S-PE, nicely.
>
> /Thanks,/
>
> /Himanshu/
>
> *From: *"Alexander com>" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 8:14 PM
> *To: *"pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>
> Himamshu and all,
>
> I respetfully disagree.
>
> As I see it, RFC 6790 in Section 4.2 Ingress LSR" inambiguously states 
> that EL and ELI, if used, between thr TL and "application label" (if 
> spplication lsbel is used). It also specifies, that EL and ELI are 
> only pushed on an incoming packet if the tunnel egress LSR has 
> signaled that it can handle EL on the specific tunnel LSP it terminates.
>
> To me this means that in the case of a MS-PW, EL and ELI CANNOT 
> preserved by an S-PE. Whether they can be generated by an SPE is 
> another story.
>
> FAT labels, on the contrary, are always the BoS labels and thrrfore 
> are preserved by SPEs of a MS-PW.
>
> Did I miss something substantial?
>
> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Pals <pals-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Shah, Himanshu 
> <hshah@ciena.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:30:13 AM
> *To:* pals@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>
> /The PALS WG discussions yesterday at the IETF100, we discussed the 
> competing/
>
> /FAT PW and ELI/EL for the PW and its fate at S-PE./
>
> //
>
> /I mentioned this at Mike but got lost in subsequent discussions./
>
> //
>
> /FAT PW label as well as ELI/EL for PW (based on microflow within PW) 
> resides/
>
> /below PW label. Thus, @ingress PE, once microflow is identified, 
> either ELI/EL/
>
> /or FAT PW label is pushed./
>
> //
>
> /@S-PE, PW label swap does not have to preserve the ELI/EL while doing 
> PW label swapping,/
>
> /BECAUSE it is already below the PW label, just like how FAT PW label 
> would be./
>
> //
>
> /I confirmed this from our data plane engineer./
>
> /(we can check with Kireeti as well)/
>
> //
>
> /I would like to know if other vendors are doing this differently??/
>
> //
>
> /Given this is true, for the switches that do DPI past PW control word 
> for ECMP, /
>
>   * /FAT PW label would suffer the same misordering as no FAT PW label/
>   * /However, ELI/EL would NOT – because of the presence of ELI/
>
> //
>
> /Thanks,/
>
> /Himanshu/
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
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    <p>Copying the thread to MPLS to include them in the discussion.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Please will copy future discussion to MPLS on this topic.</p>
    <p>Thanks<br>
    </p>
    <p>Stewart<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 15/11/2017 06:14, Shah, Himanshu
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Hi Sasha –<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">I understand that and I
            do not want to belabor my point.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">So just to clarify my
            point, you can view MS-PW as “PW-LSP”
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">with S-PE as “PW-LSR”. In
            that context, ELI/EL below PW label,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">makes sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">FAT PW RFC predates the
            ELI/EL, but if that was not the case,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">ELI/EL easily would have
            been used as the solution the way I describe above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">But that is all water
            under the bridge.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">So, let us move on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">On
            the follow on topic on the guideline,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">Where
            we say “when both are supported ONLY ONE (ELI/EL or FAT
            label) SHOULD be used”.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">Since
            FAT label does not protect from ECMP based on DPI beyond PW
            CW, BOTH schemes are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">required
            since FAT label suffers same mis-ordering consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">In
            addition, S-PE MUST preserve and/or regenerate ELI/EL above
            PW label,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">If
            WG chose to provide guidelines on how to avoid mi-ordering
            in the presence of such switches.</span><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Himanshu</span></i><span
            style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
            MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
              style="color:black">"Alexander com&gt;"
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">"pals@ietf.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">&lt;pals@ietf.org&gt;</a>, "Shah,
              Himanshu" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hshah@ciena.com">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Himanshu,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Of
              course EL/ELI can be placed anywhere in the stack. But it
              can only be inserted if the Egress LSR for the tunnel
              supports it. And in MS-PW each S-PE terminates the tunnel
              LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From
              my POV flow labels are the ONLY right mechanism for adding
              entropy to MS-PWs end-to-end.
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thump
                typed by Sasha Vainshtein<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt">
            <hr size="2" align="center" width="98%">
          </span></div>
        <div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">From:</span></b><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> Shah, Himanshu
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hshah@ciena.com">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 15, 2017 3:24:54 AM<br>
              <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">pals@ietf.org</a><br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW</span><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt">
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Hi Shasha,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">You are correct about
                how it is written in RFC 6790.
              </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">I did talk to Kireeti
                briefly in the hallway about placement of ELI/EL and
                MS-PW.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">He also did say the
                same but he also said that it does not matter where you
                place it,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">as far as processing
                of the ELI/EL, would work irrespective.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">MS-PW technology
                throws the monkey ranch.
              </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">One could just
                support 6790 and not 6391 for PW if ELI/EL placed below
                PW label.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">It solves
                preservation of entropy across S-PE, nicely.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Thanks,</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Himanshu</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="font-family:&quot;Trebuchet
                MS&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span
                  style="color:black">"Alexander com&gt;"
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 8:14 PM<br>
                  <b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">"pals@ietf.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">&lt;pals@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                  "Shah, Himanshu" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hshah@ciena.com">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Himamshu
                  and all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I
                  respetfully disagree.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">As
                  I see it, RFC 6790 in Section 4.2 Ingress LSR"
                  inambiguously states that EL and ELI, if used, between
                  thr TL and "application label" (if spplication lsbel
                  is used). It also specifies, that EL and ELI are only
                  pushed on an incoming packet if the tunnel egress LSR
                  has signaled that it can handle EL on the specific
                  tunnel LSP it terminates.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">To
                  me this means that in the case of a MS-PW, EL and ELI
                  CANNOT preserved by an S-PE. Whether they can be
                  generated by an SPE is another story.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">FAT
                  labels, on the contrary, are always the BoS labels and
                  thrrfore are preserved by SPEs of a MS-PW.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Did
                  I miss something substantial?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thump
                    typed by Sasha Vainshtein</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
              align="center"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">
                <hr size="2" align="center" width="98%">
              </span></div>
            <div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">From:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> Pals
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pals-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;pals-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> on behalf of Shah,
                  Himanshu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:hshah@ciena.com">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:30:13 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">pals@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW</span><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">The
                      PALS WG discussions yesterday at the IETF100, we
                      discussed the competing</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">FAT
                      PW and ELI/EL for the PW and its fate at S-PE.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">I
                      mentioned this at Mike but got lost in subsequent
                      discussions.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">FAT
                      PW label as well as ELI/EL for PW (based on
                      microflow within PW) resides</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">below
                      PW label. Thus, @ingress PE, once microflow is
                      identified, either ELI/EL</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">or
                      FAT PW label is pushed.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">@S-PE,
                      PW label swap does not have to preserve the ELI/EL
                      while doing PW label swapping,</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">BECAUSE
                      it is already below the PW label, just like how
                      FAT PW label would be.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">I
                      confirmed this from our data plane engineer.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">(we
                      can check with Kireeti as well)</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">I
                      would like to know if other vendors are doing this
                      differently??</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Given
                      this is true, for the switches that do DPI past PW
                      control word for ECMP,
                    </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
                  <li class="MsoNormal"
                    style="color:#0432FF;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0
                    level1 lfo1">
                    <i><span
                        style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif">FAT
                        PW label would suffer the same misordering as no
                        FAT PW label</span></i><o:p></o:p></li>
                  <li class="MsoNormal"
                    style="color:#0432FF;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0
                    level1 lfo1">
                    <i><span
                        style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif">However,
                        ELI/EL would NOT – because of the presence of
                        ELI</span></i><o:p></o:p></li>
                </ul>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
                      style="font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF"> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Thanks,</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Consolas&quot;,sans-serif;color:#0432FF">Himanshu</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
                <br>
                This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only
                and contains information which is
                <br>
                CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI
                Telecom. If you have received this
                <br>
                transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone
                or fax, and then delete the original
                <br>
                and all copies thereof.<br>
___________________________________________________________________________</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
            <br>
            This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and
            contains information which is
            <br>
            CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If
            you have received this
            <br>
            transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or
            fax, and then delete the original
            <br>
            and all copies thereof.<br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Pals mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Pals@ietf.org">Pals@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pals">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pals</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 18:06:38 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] RMR updates
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Subject: Re: [mpls] RMR updates
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Hi Kireeti,

 

Keep it out of scoop.

 

Thanks,

Jeff

From: mpls <mpls-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kireeti Kompella <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 05:13
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Subject: [mpls] RMR updates

 

Hi All,

 

We'd like to move to last call on the RMR document, but first there are a couple of loose ends we'd like to tie up, specifically, the "Advanced topics" in the -05 version of the draft.

 

a) how should the RMR document deal with "half-rings"?

 

Consider the following half-ring:

 

    A    B

    |    |

    C----D

 

Here are some options:

i) the RMR document shouldn't concern itself with this case

ii) create a PW from A to B to complete the ring

ii) instead of creating N LSPs (in this case 4), only create LSPs from A to B and from B to A.

 

b) how should the RMR document deal with protecting hub nodes?

i) not deal with it.

ii) use technology akin to PIC edge

 

We feel that it is important to address both these issues. We are soliciting your response, either among the options suggested, or potentially other ideas.

 

Thanks,
-- 

Kireeti

_______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls 


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<html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schema=
s-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/20=
04/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta name=3DTitle c=
ontent=3D""><meta name=3DKeywords content=3D""><meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type conte=
nt=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 1=
5 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954=
F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0p=
t'>Hi Kireeti,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:14.0pt'>Keep it out of scoop.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'bord=
er:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:bla=
ck'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>mpls &lt;mpl=
s-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Kireeti Kompella &lt;kireeti.kompella@gm=
ail.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 05:13<br><b>To: </=
b>&quot;mpls@ietf.org&quot; &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[mpls] =
RMR updates<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:.5in'>Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:.5in'>We'd like to move to last call on the RMR document, but first there a=
re a couple of loose ends we'd like to tie up, specifically, the &quot;Advan=
ced topics&quot; in the -05 version of the draft.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>a) how should the RMR document de=
al with &quot;half-rings&quot;?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Consider the following half-ring:<o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family=
:"monospace",serif'>&nbsp; &nbsp; A &nbsp; &nbsp;B</span><o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:=
"monospace",serif'>&nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span><o:p></o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"=
monospace",serif'>&nbsp; &nbsp; C----D</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Here are some options:<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>i) the RMR document s=
houldn't concern itself with this case<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>ii) create a PW from A to B to complete the =
ring<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>ii=
) instead of creating N LSPs (in this case 4), only create LSPs from A to B =
and from B to A.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'>b) how should the RMR document deal with protecting hub nodes?<o:p=
></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>i) not dea=
l with it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5=
in'>ii) use technology akin to PIC edge<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>We feel that it is important to address bot=
h these issues. We are soliciting your response, either among the options su=
ggested, or potentially other ideas.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Thanks,<br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Kireeti<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>____________________________________=
___________ mpls mailing list mpls@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/mpls <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

--B_3593613999_209514835--



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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:09:38 +0800
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To: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring@ietf.org
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Subject: [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Shraddha,
thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
questions I'd like to discuss:

   - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
   Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
   special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
   would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
   - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
   course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
   particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
   propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to
   trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
   out-band to the predefined Collector.
   - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.
   In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as
   long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope,
   you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters.
   I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
   operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of
   the measurement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,
Greg

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333p=
x">Shraddha,</span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:13.3333px=
">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these q=
uestions I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></div><div><ul><li>Have you thought=
 of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR =
Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, on=
e for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the bit=
 for C flag.<br></li><li>And how you envision to collect the counters along=
 the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counte=
rs for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition=
 I&#39;d propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose =
label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timest=
amp out-band to the predefined Collector.<br></li><li>And the last, have yo=
u considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerati=
ons you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of=
 statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn =
off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer gr=
anularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perha=
ps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and tri=
gger release of counters.</li></ul><div>Regards,</div></div><div>Greg</div>=
</div>

--089e082ef6c405ab28055e07bba3--


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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 18:23:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Shahram Davari <shahram.davari@broadcom.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
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	charset=utf-8

Himanshu

We can=E2=80=99t consider the PW label as PW-LSP, even though there is a =
PW label swapping at S-PE.  At most you can consider it
as PW-LSP only at the S-PE but not at the Terminating PE.

We can=E2=80=99t do it is because we need to get packet processing =
context from PW label such as the Payload Type (IP, Ethernet, etc.), =
Existence of CW, and whether we are doing PHP or not, etc. If we assume =
PW-LSP then we can=E2=80=99t get any of these information from PW label.

So I really object to using ELI/EL below PW label.  Existing HW that =
complies to RFCs can=E2=80=99t support this.

Thx
Shahram

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 12:06 AM, Stewart Bryant =
<stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Copying the thread to MPLS to include them in the discussion.
>=20
> Please will copy future discussion to MPLS on this topic.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Stewart
>=20
>=20
> On 15/11/2017 06:14, Shah, Himanshu wrote:
>> Hi Sasha =E2=80=93
>> =20
>> I understand that and I do not want to belabor my point.
>> So just to clarify my point, you can view MS-PW as =E2=80=9CPW-LSP=E2=80=
=9D
>> with S-PE as =E2=80=9CPW-LSR=E2=80=9D. In that context, ELI/EL below =
PW label,
>> makes sense.
>> =20
>> FAT PW RFC predates the ELI/EL, but if that was not the case,
>> ELI/EL easily would have been used as the solution the way I describe =
above.
>> =20
>> But that is all water under the bridge.
>> So, let us move on.
>> =20
>> On the follow on topic on the guideline,
>> Where we say =E2=80=9Cwhen both are supported ONLY ONE (ELI/EL or FAT =
label) SHOULD be used=E2=80=9D.
>> =20
>> Since FAT label does not protect from ECMP based on DPI beyond PW CW, =
BOTH schemes are
>> required since FAT label suffers same mis-ordering consequences.
>> In addition, S-PE MUST preserve and/or regenerate ELI/EL above PW =
label,
>> If WG chose to provide guidelines on how to avoid mi-ordering in the =
presence of such switches.
>> =20
>> Thanks,
>> Himanshu
>> =20
>> From: "Alexander com>" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> =
<mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM
>> To: "pals@ietf.org" <mailto:pals@ietf.org> <pals@ietf.org> =
<mailto:pals@ietf.org>, "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com> =
<mailto:hshah@ciena.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>> =20
>> Himanshu,
>> Of course EL/ELI can be placed anywhere in the stack. But it can only =
be inserted if the Egress LSR for the tunnel supports it. And in MS-PW =
each S-PE terminates the tunnel LSP.
>>=20
>> =46rom my POV flow labels are the ONLY right mechanism for adding =
entropy to MS-PWs end-to-end.
>>=20
>> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>> =20
>> From: Shah, Himanshu <hshah@ciena.com> <mailto:hshah@ciena.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 3:24:54 AM
>> To: Alexander Vainshtein; pals@ietf.org <mailto:pals@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>> =20
>> Hi Shasha,
>> =20
>> You are correct about how it is written in RFC 6790.
>> =20
>> I did talk to Kireeti briefly in the hallway about placement of =
ELI/EL and MS-PW.
>> He also did say the same but he also said that it does not matter =
where you place it,
>> as far as processing of the ELI/EL, would work irrespective.
>> =20
>> MS-PW technology throws the monkey ranch.
>> One could just support 6790 and not 6391 for PW if ELI/EL placed =
below PW label.
>> It solves preservation of entropy across S-PE, nicely.
>> =20
>> Thanks,
>> Himanshu
>> =20
>> From: "Alexander com>" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> =
<mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 8:14 PM
>> To: "pals@ietf.org" <mailto:pals@ietf.org> <pals@ietf.org> =
<mailto:pals@ietf.org>, "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com> =
<mailto:hshah@ciena.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>> =20
>> Himamshu and all,
>> I respetfully disagree.
>>=20
>> As I see it, RFC 6790 in Section 4.2 Ingress LSR" inambiguously =
states that EL and ELI, if used, between thr TL and "application label" =
(if spplication lsbel is used). It also specifies, that EL and ELI are =
only pushed on an incoming packet if the tunnel egress LSR has signaled =
that it can handle EL on the specific tunnel LSP it terminates.
>>=20
>> To me this means that in the case of a MS-PW, EL and ELI CANNOT =
preserved by an S-PE. Whether they can be generated by an SPE is another =
story.
>>=20
>> FAT labels, on the contrary, are always the BoS labels and thrrfore =
are preserved by SPEs of a MS-PW.
>>=20
>> Did I miss something substantial?
>>=20
>> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>> =20
>> From: Pals <pals-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:pals-bounces@ietf.org> on =
behalf of Shah, Himanshu <hshah@ciena.com> <mailto:hshah@ciena.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 5:30:13 AM
>> To: pals@ietf.org <mailto:pals@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [Pals] ELI/EL for the PW
>> =20
>> The PALS WG discussions yesterday at the IETF100, we discussed the =
competing
>> FAT PW and ELI/EL for the PW and its fate at S-PE.
>> =20
>> I mentioned this at Mike but got lost in subsequent discussions.
>> =20
>> FAT PW label as well as ELI/EL for PW (based on microflow within PW) =
resides
>> below PW label. Thus, @ingress PE, once microflow is identified, =
either ELI/EL
>> or FAT PW label is pushed.
>> =20
>> @S-PE, PW label swap does not have to preserve the ELI/EL while doing =
PW label swapping,
>> BECAUSE it is already below the PW label, just like how FAT PW label =
would be.
>> =20
>> I confirmed this from our data plane engineer.
>> (we can check with Kireeti as well)
>> =20
>> I would like to know if other vendors are doing this differently??
>> =20
>> Given this is true, for the switches that do DPI past PW control word =
for ECMP,
>> FAT PW label would suffer the same misordering as no FAT PW label
>> However, ELI/EL would NOT =E2=80=93 because of the presence of ELI
>> =20
>> Thanks,
>> Himanshu
>>=20
>> =
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>>=20
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>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and =
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>>=20
>>=20
>> =
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>>=20
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains =
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>> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have =
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>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and =
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>>=20
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>=20
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--Apple-Mail=_48882BA7-9DEB-4BBC-9CFC-E466CB29647B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Himanshu<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We=
 can=E2=80=99t consider the PW label as PW-LSP, even though there is a =
PW label swapping at S-PE. &nbsp;At most you can consider it</div><div =
class=3D"">as PW-LSP only at the S-PE but not at the Terminating =
PE.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We can=E2=80=
=99t do it is because we need to get packet processing context from PW =
label such as the Payload Type (IP, Ethernet, etc.), Existence of CW, =
and whether we are doing PHP or not, etc. If we assume PW-LSP then we =
can=E2=80=99t get any of these information from PW label.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So I really object to =
using ELI/EL below PW label. &nbsp;Existing HW that complies to RFCs =
can=E2=80=99t support this.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Thx</div><div class=3D"">Shahram</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 15, 2017, at 12:06 AM, Stewart Bryant =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">Copying the thread to MPLS to include them in the =
discussion.<br class=3D""></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Please will copy =
future discussion to MPLS on this topic.</p><p style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Thanks<br =
class=3D""></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Stewart<br class=3D""></p><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">On 15/11/2017 06:14, Shah, =
Himanshu wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:A756C03C-90E3-4BEC-95C0-B07836C8AE5E@ciena.com" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Hi Sasha =
=E2=80=93<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">I understand that and =
I do not want to belabor my point.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">So just to clarify my =
point, you can view MS-PW as =E2=80=9CPW-LSP=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">with S-PE as =E2=80=9CPW-LSR=E2=80=9D. In that context, =
ELI/EL below PW label,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">makes sense.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">FAT PW RFC predates the ELI/EL, but if that =
was not the case,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">ELI/EL easily would have been used as the =
solution the way I describe above.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">But that is all water under the bridge.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">So, let us move on.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">On the follow on topic on the guideline,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">Where we say =E2=80=9Cwhen both are supported ONLY ONE =
(ELI/EL or FAT label) SHOULD be used=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">Since FAT label does not protect from ECMP =
based on DPI beyond PW CW, BOTH schemes are<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">required since FAT label suffers same mis-ordering =
consequences.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">In addition, S-PE MUST preserve and/or =
regenerate ELI/EL above PW label,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">If WG chose to provide =
guidelines on how to avoid mi-ordering in the presence of such =
switches.</span><span class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Consolas, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Consolas, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" =
class=3D"">Himanshu</span></i><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"Alexander com&gt;"<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" =
href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, November 15, =
2017 at 1:48 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">"pals@ietf.org"</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;pals@ietf.org&gt;</a>, "Shah, Himanshu"<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:hshah@ciena.com" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for =
the PW<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Himanshu,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Of course EL/ELI can be placed anywhere in the =
stack. But it can only be inserted if the Egress LSR for the tunnel =
supports it. And in MS-PW each S-PE terminates the tunnel LSP.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">=46rom my POV flow labels are the ONLY right =
mechanism for adding entropy to MS-PWs end-to-end.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thump typed by Sasha =
Vainshtein<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" =
align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><hr size=3D"2" align=3D"center" =
width=3D"98%" class=3D""></span></div><div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Shah, Himanshu<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:hshah@ciena.com" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, November 15, =
2017 3:24:54 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Alexander Vainshtein;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">pals@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for the =
PW</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Hi =
Shasha,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">You are correct about =
how it is written in RFC 6790.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">I did talk to Kireeti briefly in the hallway about placement =
of ELI/EL and MS-PW.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">He also did say the =
same but he also said that it does not matter where you place =
it,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">as far as processing of the ELI/EL, would =
work irrespective.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">MS-PW technology =
throws the monkey ranch.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">One could just support =
6790 and not 6391 for PW if ELI/EL placed below PW label.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">It solves preservation of entropy across S-PE, =
nicely.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">Thanks,</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Consolas, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">Himanshu</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"Alexander com&gt;"<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" =
href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, November 14, =
2017 at 8:14 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">"pals@ietf.org"</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;pals@ietf.org&gt;</a>, "Shah, Himanshu"<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:hshah@ciena.com" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Pals] ELI/EL for =
the PW</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Himamshu and =
all,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I respetfully =
disagree.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">As I see it, RFC 6790 in =
Section 4.2 Ingress LSR" inambiguously states that EL and ELI, if used, =
between thr TL and "application label" (if spplication lsbel is used). =
It also specifies, that EL and ELI are only pushed on an incoming packet =
if the tunnel egress LSR has signaled that it can handle EL on the =
specific tunnel LSP it terminates.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">To me this means that in the case of a MS-PW, EL =
and ELI CANNOT preserved by an S-PE. Whether they can be generated by an =
SPE is another story.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">FAT labels, on the contrary, are always the BoS labels and =
thrrfore are preserved by SPEs of a MS-PW.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Did I miss something substantial?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thump typed by Sasha =
Vainshtein</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt;" class=3D""><hr size=3D"2" align=3D"center" width=3D"98%" =
class=3D""></span></div><div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Pals<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:pals-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;pals-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>on behalf of Shah, =
Himanshu<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:hshah@ciena.com" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">&lt;hshah@ciena.com&gt;</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, November 14, 2017 =
5:30:13 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">pals@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Pals] ELI/EL for the =
PW</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Consolas, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">The PALS WG =
discussions yesterday at the IETF100, we discussed the =
competing</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">FAT PW and ELI/EL for =
the PW and its fate at S-PE.</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Consolas, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Consolas, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">I mentioned =
this at Mike but got lost in subsequent discussions.</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">FAT PW label as well as ELI/EL for PW =
(based on microflow within PW) resides</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">below PW label. Thus, @ingress PE, once =
microflow is identified, either ELI/EL</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">or FAT PW label is pushed.</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">@S-PE, PW label swap does not have to =
preserve the ELI/EL while doing PW label swapping,</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">BECAUSE it is already below the PW label, =
just like how FAT PW label would be.</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">I confirmed this from our data plane =
engineer.</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">(we can check with =
Kireeti as well)</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Consolas, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:=
 Consolas, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">I would like =
to know if other vendors are doing this differently??</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">Given this is true, for the switches that =
do DPI past PW control word for ECMP,</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; =
margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(4, 50, 255);"><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Consolas, sans-serif;" class=3D"">FAT PW label would suffer the same =
misordering as no FAT PW label</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">However, ELI/EL would NOT =E2=80=93 because of the presence =
of ELI</span></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Consolas, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">Thanks,</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Consolas, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(4, 50, 255);" class=3D"">Himanshu</span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
____________<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">This e-mail message is =
intended for the recipient only and contains information which is<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">CONFIDENTIAL =
and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have received =
this<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or =
fax, and then delete the original<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">and all =
copies thereof.<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
____________</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
____________<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">This e-mail message is =
intended for the recipient only and contains information which is<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">CONFIDENTIAL =
and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have received =
this<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or =
fax, and then delete the original<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">and all =
copies thereof.<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
____________<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><br class=3D""><fieldset =
class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br class=3D""><pre wrap=3D"" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________
Pals mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Pals@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">Pals@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pals" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pals</a>
</pre></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:15:30 +0800
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/5ZPVB64Uy8GPKn4YOX8kT-2NS7s>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Zafar

I don=E2=80=99t think you can assert that fails to comply with the SR arch. T=
here is nothing they are doing that cannot be captured in Netflix/IPFIX and S=
R needs to work with IPFIX.

Stewart



> On 16 Nov 2017, at 2:23 am, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
> =20
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstrac=
t of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-=
segment-routing-13, which states:
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while ma=
intaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=

> =20
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.
> =20
> Thanks
> =20
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
> =20
> =20
> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-h=
egde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls=
@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths
> =20
> Hi Shraddha,
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these qu=
estions I'd like to discuss:
> Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path I=
dentifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have t=
o lose the bit for C flag.
> And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flow=
 (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band=
 mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to sen=
d counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Co=
llector.
> And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In S=
calability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long=
 as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you m=
ay have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I thin=
k that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators=
. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measur=
ement and trigger release of counters.
> Regards,
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div>Zafar</div><div><br></div><=
div>I don=E2=80=99t think you can assert that fails to comply with the SR ar=
ch. There is nothing they are doing that cannot be captured in Netflix/IPFIX=
 and SR needs to work with IPFIX.</div><div><br></div><div>Stewart</div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 16 Nov 2017, at 2:23 am, Zafar Ali (za=
li) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a=
 snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topo=
logical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to t=
he SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress n=
odes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It a=
lso makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the=
 procedure very complex and unscalable.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:=
 </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf o=
f Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;, "<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=
Shraddha,</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank yo=
u for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions I'=
d like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Ide=
ntifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special purp=
ose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to=
 lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0=
 level1 lfo1">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a Co=
ntroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flow (=
SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band m=
echanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with th=
e timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sca=
lability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long a=
s collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may=
 have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow gr=
anularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may b=
e used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.=
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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<div style=3D"">Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficien=
t from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority ob=
ject. Hence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whi=
ch states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Fro=
m: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;spring-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g&quot; &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;mpls@ietf.org&quot; &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;spring@ietf.org&qu=
ot; &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black=
">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">thank =
you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions=
 I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for=
 each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in additi=
on I'd propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as=
 long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

But no new labels are needed.

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
you.

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

cheers,
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--94eb2c1b4fe82dc69f055e10592d
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<div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not fo=
rwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But no new lab=
els are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">See on i=
ngress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual=
 packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the=
 packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.</div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides this method also seamless=
ly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the p=
acket content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-<wbr>routing-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:31:23 +0800
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/PZh_vIrggNGd6u2Fd3fGBXuKXs8>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Robert,
you proposal is similar to idea of Synonymous Labels
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00>but I'm
afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPLS
stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state in
the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
> cheers,
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>

--94eb2c1a5e709703a7055e106a05
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>you proposal is similar to idea of <a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00">Synonymou=
s Labels </a>but I&#39;m afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require=
 that the whole SR MPLS stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And t=
hat will create state in the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of cou=
rse.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:=
26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.=
net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is a=
ccounting state not forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">But no new labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match=
 of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the=
 very same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting req=
uired for you.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides t=
his method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SF=
s do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
 type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v class=3D"h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-7729177119527706386m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span class=3D"">______________________________<wbr>_______=
__________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1a5e709703a7055e106a05--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:34:06 +0100
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Greg,

There is zero labels of any sort in my proposal needed. Just basic netflow.

best
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:31, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Robert,
> you proposal is similar to idea of Synonymous Labels
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00>but I'm
> afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPLS
> stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state =
in
> the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote=
:
>
>> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>>
>> But no new labels are needed.
>>
>> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the field=
s
>> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
>> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required fo=
r
>> you.
>>
>> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as lon=
g
>> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>>
>> cheers,
>> r.
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Xiaohu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>>
>>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f
>>> or-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>>
>>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>>> procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also
>>> makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find th=
e
>>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Shraddha,
>>>
>>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>>
>>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both
>>>    SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but reque=
st two
>>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifi=
er
>>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for =
the
>>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose la=
bel, to
>>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that i=
s on
>>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush =
off
>>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granular=
ity
>>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be=
 used
>>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters=
.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mpls mailing list
>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>
>>>
>

--001a114b2f284c27ff055e10746e
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<div dir=3D"auto">Greg,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There =
is zero labels of any sort in my proposal needed. Just basic netflow.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">best</div><div dir=3D"auto">r=
.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On N=
ov 16, 2017 10:31, &quot;Greg Mirsky&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>you proposal =
is similar to idea of <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpl=
s-sfl-framework-00" target=3D"_blank">Synonymous Labels </a>but I&#39;m afr=
aid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPLS stac=
k must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state in the=
 transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">rober=
t@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwardi=
ng state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But no new labels ar=
e needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">See on ingress=
 you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packe=
t. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packe=
ts on egress and you have path accounting required for you.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides this method also seamlessly w=
orks over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the packe=
t content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_8296646812037645241h5">=
On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@=
huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D=
"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D=
"m_8296646812037645241h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-f<wbr>or-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpl<wbr>s@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf<wbr>.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_8296646812037645241m_-7729177119527706386m_1173985651965020=
512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
mpls mailing list<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:27:41 +0800
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Dear All,
I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they
will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
discussion of what measurement method to use.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>

--94eb2c1aa9b053d16b055e105dee
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>I cannot imagine that operators will agree t=
o deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and t=
roubleshoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the ear=
ly adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be suffi=
cient to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly desc=
ribes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal=
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discus=
s whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1518408483082348852WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-<wbr>routing-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1aa9b053d16b055e105dee--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:36:49 +0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmUZGTEcQEUn+CBk0BUj2jKwbVqhOv44qm7TMwXUcY=xXg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/GH2JYLfJ9eFdGc5xHSJlHHhTc1A>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Robert,
consider number of ACL filters one has to configure just in case the
particular SR flow comes along. Yes, that works but there are other costs
to pay. The proposed approach has some very attractive, IMHO, qualities.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> There is zero labels of any sort in my proposal needed. Just basic netflo=
w.
>
> best
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:31, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert,
>> you proposal is similar to idea of Synonymous Labels
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00>but I'm
>> afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR MPL=
S
>> stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create state=
 in
>> the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state=
.
>>>
>>> But no new labels are needed.
>>>
>>> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the
>>> fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the ver=
y
>>> same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting requi=
red
>>> for you.
>>>
>>> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as
>>> long as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> r.
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>>>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>>>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Xiaohu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>>>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>>>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>>>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>>>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>>>
>>>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>>>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om>;
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-heg
>>>> de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>>>> >;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>>>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labe=
ls in
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>>>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>>>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>>>
>>>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path whil=
e
>>>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>>>> procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also
>>>> makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find t=
he
>>>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>>>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>>>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>>>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shraddha,
>>>>
>>>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have thes=
e
>>>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>>>
>>>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both
>>>>    SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but requ=
est two
>>>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identif=
ier
>>>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for=
 the
>>>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'=
d
>>>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose l=
abel, to
>>>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestam=
p
>>>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that =
is on
>>>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush=
 off
>>>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granula=
rity
>>>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may b=
e used
>>>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counter=
s.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mpls mailing list
>>>> mpls@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>>>
>>>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>consider number of ACL filters one has to c=
onfigure just in case the particular SR flow comes along. Yes, that works b=
ut there are other costs to pay. The proposed approach has some very attrac=
tive, IMHO, qualities.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</di=
v></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, N=
ov 16, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Greg,<div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There is zero labels of any sort in my pr=
oposal needed. Just basic netflow.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">best</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div di=
r=3D"auto">r.</div></font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"=
h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 20=
17 10:31, &quot;Greg Mirsky&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attri=
bution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,<div>you =
proposal is similar to idea of <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-ietf-mpls-sfl-framework-00" target=3D"_blank">Synonymous Labels </a>but I&=
#39;m afraid it will not scale for SR-MPLS as it require that the whole SR =
MPLS stack must consist of such synonymous labels. And that will create sta=
te in the transient nodes in the data plane, IMHO of course.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszu=
k <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not=
 forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But no new =
labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">See o=
n ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of act=
ual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of =
the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides this method also seaml=
essly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with th=
e packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_1992155412616582=
018m_8296646812037645241h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_1992155412616582018m_8296646812037645241h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-f<wbr>or-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpl<wbr>s@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf<wbr>.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1992155412616582018m_8296646812037645241m_-7729177119527706=
386m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: ShaoWen Ma <mashaowen@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:43:07 +0800
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Robert and all,

  SPRING try to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that's the design
principal for whole network.
  and Shraddha just want to add back per flow Traffic statistics as
request, which will only applied to interested flow.

  if you check the label stack for traffic statistics, that might be get
some processing trouble to handle:
{300|200|100} with another label stack such as {400|300|200|100} on the
same nodes.

  so path id do have it's value if customer want to check specific flow, by
not impact all packet process on the transit router.

Best Regards
Shaowen Ma


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
> cheers,
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

--94eb2c07077a829566055e1094cd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Robert and all,<br><br></div>=C2=A0 SPRING tr=
y to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that&#39;s the design principal=
 for whole network. <br></div><div>=C2=A0 and Shraddha just want to add bac=
k per flow Traffic statistics as request, which will only applied to intere=
sted flow. <br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 if you check the label stac=
k for traffic statistics, that might be get some processing trouble to hand=
le:</div><div>{300|200|100} with another label stack such as {400|300|200|1=
00} on the same nodes.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 so path id do =
have it&#39;s value if customer want to check specific flow, by not impact =
all packet process on the transit router. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Bes=
t Regards</div><div>Shaowen Ma=C2=A0 <br></div>=C2=A0 <br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:=
26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.=
net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This is a=
ccounting state not forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">But no new labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match=
 of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the=
 very same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting req=
uired for you.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides t=
his method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SF=
s do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
 type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v class=3D"h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_7401593907779805725m_1173985651965020512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span class=3D"">______________________________<wbr>_______=
__________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br=
>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--001a114b2f288d3196055e10951a
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This discussion is about a form of iOAM in SR-MPLS . To your point where in
mpls architecture in general there is provisioning for iOAM ?

And last time I check mpls is still used here and there ;)

Good news is that SRv6 is natively solving this by keeping the SID stacks
intact to the egress.

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:36, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--001a114b2f288d3196055e10951a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">This discussion is about a form of iOAM in SR-MPLS . To y=
our point where in mpls architecture in general there is provisioning for i=
OAM ?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And last time I check mp=
ls is still used here and there ;)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">Good news is that SRv6 is natively solving this by keeping the S=
ID stacks intact to the egress.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 10:36, &quot;Greg Mirsky&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deplo=
y network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubles=
hoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adop=
ters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient t=
o support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes t=
he problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes =
is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss wheth=
er the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can cont=
inue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"m_9004451241199430862h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_9004451241199430862m_1518408483082348852WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>

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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:47:13 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Robert,

=20

HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.

An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import prop=
erty of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt whe=
n business need arises. =C2=A0

=20

Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as=
 a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=
=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first pa=
cket in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that =
is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record=
.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@r=
aszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

=20

But no new labels are needed.

=20

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields o=
f actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields=
 of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.

=20

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long a=
s such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

=20

cheers,

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20



=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
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_______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@=
ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Rober=
t,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>=
HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>An arch=
itecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import property of =
a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt when busine=
ss need arises. =C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:14.0pt'>Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (=
here encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup w=
ould yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet =
is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the c=
ounter ID that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into ac=
counting record.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'=
font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top=
:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span><=
/b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;spring-bounces@ietf=
.org&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br><b>Date: </=
b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, sprin=
g &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali=
)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<b=
r><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>The architecture is fine. This is acc=
ounting state not forwarding state.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>But no new labels are needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>See on ingress you apply sr la=
bel stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all you nee=
d is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egress and y=
ou have path accounting required for you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Besides this method also seamlessly works=
 over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the packet con=
tent of those tuples.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma=
rgin-left:.5in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:.5in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><block=
quote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in=
 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=
.5in'>Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my p=
oint of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence =
we would have to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu <br><b=
r><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.=
0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E<=
/span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>M<span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692=
" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Minc=
ho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=
=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=
=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",seri=
f'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=
=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMin=
gLiU",serif'><br></span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Busi=
ness Development Dept<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top=
:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Im=
age><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zaf=
ar Ali (zali)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-h=
egde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:1=
5.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</=
span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b>=
<b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5p=
t'>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> <=
/span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
argin-left:.5in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;margin-left:.5in'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a sni=
ppet from abstract of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which states:<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the=
 SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margi=
n-left:.5in'>In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the=
 procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also make=
s controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedu=
re very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p=
></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&=
nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-ma=
rgin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:au=
to;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bot=
tom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'=
>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org=
</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, No=
vember 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde=
-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quo=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Hi&nbsp;<span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>thank you for very we=
ll written and thought through draft. I have these questions I'd like to dis=
cuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;=
mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt =
"Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></spa=
n>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path I=
dentifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have =
to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.2=
5in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.=
0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR><=
/span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course=
, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular=
 flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in=
-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR t=
o send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefin=
ed Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l=
0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New=
 Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>And the =
last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability=
 Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long as collec=
tion of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to=
 turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that fin=
er granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, p=
erhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and =
trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards,<=
o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
/div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><br>____________________=
___________________________<br>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@iet=
f.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/m=
pls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>_=
______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring <o:p></o:p></p></div></b=
ody></html>

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To: ShaoWen Ma <mashaowen@gmail.com>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring@ietf.org, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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I am not suggesting checking any label stack.

All info comes from packet behind label stack. Just like it is read on
ingress when/before you apply stack the same can be done on egress where
there is no more stack at all any more.

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:43, "ShaoWen Ma" <mashaowen@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Robert and all,

  SPRING try to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that's the design
principal for whole network.
  and Shraddha just want to add back per flow Traffic statistics as
request, which will only applied to interested flow.

  if you check the label stack for traffic statistics, that might be get
some processing trouble to handle:
{300|200|100} with another label stack such as {400|300|200|100} on the
same nodes.

  so path id do have it's value if customer want to check specific flow, by
not impact all packet process on the transit router.

Best Regards
Shaowen Ma


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
> cheers,
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f
>> or-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels=
 in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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<div dir=3D"auto">I am not suggesting checking any label stack.<div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">All info comes from packet behind label s=
tack. Just like it is read on ingress when/before you apply stack the same =
can be done on egress where there is no more stack at all any more.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</=
div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov =
16, 2017 10:43, &quot;ShaoWen Ma&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mashaowen@gmai=
l.com">mashaowen@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquo=
te class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Robert and all,<br><br></div>=
=C2=A0 SPRING try to get rid of per flow forwarding status. that&#39;s the =
design principal for whole network. <br></div><div>=C2=A0 and Shraddha just=
 want to add back per flow Traffic statistics as request, which will only a=
pplied to interested flow. <br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 if you chec=
k the label stack for traffic statistics, that might be get some processing=
 trouble to handle:</div><div>{300|200|100} with another label stack such a=
s {400|300|200|100} on the same nodes.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0 so path id do have it&#39;s value if customer want to check specific fl=
ow, by not impact all packet process on the transit router. <br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div>Shaowen Ma=C2=A0 <br></div>=C2=A0 <br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=
=3D"quoted-text">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Robert Raszuk <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@=
raszuk.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv class=3D"elided-text"><div dir=3D"auto">The architecture is fine. This i=
s accounting state not forwarding state.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">But no new labels are needed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some matc=
h of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on th=
e very same fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting re=
quired for you.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Besides =
this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such S=
Fs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">cheers,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=
=3D"m_-4855945027626226455h5">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-4855945027626226455h5">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from =
my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. H=
ence we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-f<wbr>or-sr-paths=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpl<wbr>s@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf<wbr>.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-4855945027626226455m_7401593907779805725m_1173985651965020=
512WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segm=
ent-routin<wbr>g-13</a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&g=
t; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;, &=
quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier+Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for eac=
h case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I=
&#39;d propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintaine=
d as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div></div>
<br></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/spring</a><br=
>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:50:36 +0100
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To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.

Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the =
point.
>
> An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import
> property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to
> adapt when business need arises.
>
>
>
> Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (h=
ere encoded as a
> label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an
> =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet=
 is the first
> packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID
> that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accountin=
g
> record.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
> *To: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls
> <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
>
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
>
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
>
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
>
>
> cheers,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
> =C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both =
SR
> Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
> special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
> would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>
> =C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
> course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
> particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
> propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, =
to
> trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
> out-band to the predefined Collector.
>
> =C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per f=
low.
> In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as
> long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope=
,
> you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters=
.
> I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
> operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end o=
f
> the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
> _______________________________________________ spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--94eb2c075610510788055e10af9d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">As explained it is not needed to get all information requ=
ired per path.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes you may hav=
e N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 10:=
47, &quot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com=
">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vl=
ink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-5348562060348780013WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">HW=
 counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the poin=
t.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Keeping semantics =
aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as a lab=
el) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=80=
=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the =
first packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter=
 ID that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into account=
ing record.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black=
">Jeff</span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert=
 Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@r=
aszuk.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><=
b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;<br><b>=
Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">The architectur=
e is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.<u></u><u></u></p>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">But no new=
 labels are needed.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">See on ingress you apply sr label stack ba=
sed on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all you need is to do =
accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egress and you have pa=
th accounting required for you.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Besides this method also seaml=
essly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with th=
e packet content of those tuples.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">cheers,<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">O=
n Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></p><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padd=
ing:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=
.5in">Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from=
 my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. =
Hence we would have to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu=
 <br><br><br><br><u></u><u></u></p><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center=
" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-align:center"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%=
" align=3D"center"></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br></span>M<span style=3D"font=
-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-139=
10161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaoh=
u@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=
=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span=
><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=
</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span=
><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8=
</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br></span>Pr=
oducts &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0p=
t;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image"><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt">=
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif"=
>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"=
>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;M=
S Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special=
 purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<=
u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.5in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family=
:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5i=
n;line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</span></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in=
">Hi, <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">T=
his draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract =
of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13</a>, which states:<u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=E2=80=9CSR allo=
ws to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flo=
w state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <u></u><u></u>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">In addition to creatin=
g states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data p=
lane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and =
error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. =
<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Tha=
nks<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Rega=
rds =E2=80=A6 Zafar <u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-=
top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">F=
rom: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>W=
ednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mail=
to:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>or=
g</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accou=
nting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Su=
bject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<w=
br>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;c=
olor:black">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I ha=
ve these questions I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.=
0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span d=
ir=3D"LTR"></span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label f=
or both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but requ=
est two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identif=
ier would not have to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times N=
ew Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span=
>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a =
Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular fl=
ow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use =
in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LS=
R to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the pred=
efined Collector.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:1.0in"><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span=
>=C2=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0 </span=
></span></span><u></u><span dir=3D"LTR"></span>And the last, have you consi=
dered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you=
&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of statis=
tics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn off/on =
the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granulari=
ty, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the =
flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger re=
lease of counters.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-left:.5in">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Greg<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><=
/div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1=
2.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><br>______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a=
><u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:.5in">______________________________<wbr>_________________ spr=
ing mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a> <u></u=
><u></u></p></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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<div style=3D"">I fully agree with you that OAM tools are important. <br>
<br>
I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the s=
ame terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label usag=
e due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Greg Mirsky</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@c=
isco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-=
sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spr=
ing&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 10:27:55</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lack=
s critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network. T=
rue, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they =
will likely request that the OAM
 toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this =
work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow beh=
avior at internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First=
 let's discuss whether the case
 and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to dis=
cussion of what measurement method to use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Greg</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my p=
oint of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence=
 we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-139101=
61692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draf=
t-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>or=
g</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 02:24:10</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_1518408483082348852WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Fro=
m: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&=
gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black=
">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">thank =
you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions=
 I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Have you thought of using=
 not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Iden=
tifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for=
 each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">And how you envision to collect the counters along t=
he path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters=
 for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in additi=
on I'd propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as=
 long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node
 scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old co=
unters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be usefu=
l for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the e=
nd of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:08:58 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <7EAFDDD7-2248-4AAD-BBD0-B463AF5CC253@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+b+ERkNqQqCLyPhKLaZuMp0jAyOFW7FTb=0QKsOyRy10auyrA@mail.gmail.com> <E4E0C34F-27A7-43A3-BACE-2EFDB3D8600C@gmail.com> <CA+b+ERmyzCw+VkcVqMmnOPbmf8aE0Sp2kbicomAL7hGtCO8Phg@mail.gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/aqa2oX0w1YSL0ln-nRF6aWR-nuM>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) cou=
nters per LSP.

Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: <rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, sp=
ring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco=
.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-sprin=
g-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.

=20

Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?

=20

thx

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Robert,

=20

HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.

An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import prop=
erty of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt whe=
n business need arises. =20

=20

Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as=
 a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=
=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first pa=
cket in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that =
is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record=
.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@r=
aszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

=20

But no new labels are needed.

=20

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields o=
f actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields=
 of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.

=20

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long a=
s such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

=20

cheers,

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20


=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

_______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@=
ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Today=
, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) counters =
per LSP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0=
pt'>Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black=
'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:=
3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.=
0pt;color:black'>&lt;rraszuk@gmail.com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;ro=
bert@raszuk.net&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>=
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Xuxia=
ohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, =
spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali =
(zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&=
gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-h=
egde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>As explained it is not needed to=
 get all information required per path.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so =
what is the problem ?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in'>thx<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin=
-left:.5in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &quot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p><=
/p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-lef=
t:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>HW counters are rather precious res=
ources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5i=
n'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>An architecture is not an immutable object=
, on contrary, a very import property of a good architecture is flexibility =
and agility, ability to adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Keeping semanti=
cs aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as a label) that u=
niquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D=
, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow=
. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and co=
uld be resolved by a management layer into accounting record.</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>=
Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;bor=
der-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><=
b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Ras=
zuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net=
</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><b>To: </b>=
Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;=
Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0i=
n'>The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.<=
o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-mar=
gin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:1.0in'>But no new labels are needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margi=
n-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>See on ing=
ress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual pa=
cket. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the pac=
kets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
1.0in'>Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as =
long as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.<o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-mar=
gin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:1.0in'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>r.<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;=
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mar=
gin-left:1.0in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt=
;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0=
in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-a=
lt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'>Concur. Although it has some=
 values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network simplicity s=
hould be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make some comprom=
ise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu <br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'm=
argin-left:.5in'><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-left:.5in;t=
ext-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div></div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.=
0in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>M<span style=3D'font-famil=
y:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank"=
>+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com=
</a><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span =
style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:Sim=
Sun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><=
span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS=
 Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br>=
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development =
Dept<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.=
0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=
SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (zali)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</=
span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [mpls]=
 [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15=
.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span><=
/b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5=
pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;line-h=
eight:15.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. =
I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, wh=
ich states:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;=
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow=
 through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the i=
ngress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>In addition to creating states at transit =
and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it uns=
calable. It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summar=
y, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Thanks<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:a=
uto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 =
Zafar <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto=
;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-=
left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B=
5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;=
color:black'>spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<b=
r><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;=
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org=
</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose la=
bels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-=
bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:1.0in'>Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</spa=
n> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso=
-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;col=
or:black'>thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have =
these questions I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>=
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Ide=
ntifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special purp=
ose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to=
 lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font=
-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>And how you envision to colle=
ct the counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for al=
l counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SI=
D). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another sp=
ecial purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow wi=
th the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>=
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sca=
lability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long a=
s collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may=
 have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think =
that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. =
Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurem=
ent and trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>=
Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin=
-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Greg<o:p></o:p><=
/p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-al=
t:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><br>_________________________=
______________________<br>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</=
a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-marg=
in-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>______________=
_________________________________ spring mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/spring</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></b=
ody></html>

--B_3593675341_1877785126--



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From: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXoVQQtsEGKn4wUCvuuDCLNT9DKMWTlAAgAAD0nA=
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:11:19 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/5CCD9iCoqQbu0A4sM1PUoXnV6mY>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From nobody Wed Nov 15 19:12:09 2017
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From nobody Wed Nov 15 19:16:18 2017
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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Working Group,

We are currently preparing draft draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label 
for a second wglc.

Part of this preparation is to do a final IPR poll.

Note that we opted to repeat the IPR poll even though we did an IPR poll 
at first wglc, there are two reasons (1) it is 18 months since the first
wglc and, (2) my archive of the responses from the last IPR poll is
(blush) not complete or they are broken.

This mail is to start the IPR poll.

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to 
draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label?

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

There are three IPR disclosures against draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-
label.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant
IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The
document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been
received from each author and contributor.

If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.


/Loa
  mpls wg co-chair
-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64



From nobody Wed Nov 15 19:21:32 2017
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div style=3D""><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Cheers=
,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">&lt;rraszuk@gmail.=
com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in">Co=
ncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wou=
ld have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in; text-a=
lign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</s=
pan> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</spa=
n><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-13910161692=
</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=
=B8</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=CD=F8</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=C2=E7=D5=BD</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=C2=D4=D3=EB</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=
=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=D6=F7</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=
=CC=E2</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</spa=
n></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through d=
raft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><b=
r>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
_______________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 03:35:07 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div style=3D""><br>
The beauty of MPLS-SR is less states are required. To keep it as beautiful =
as possible, it'd better for us to overcome the impulsion of adding more an=
d more complicated functions.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Mach Chen</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gre=
gimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-a=
ccounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-=
sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:29:12</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Hi Zafar,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Given that SR supports SID Binding, states only maintained at in=
gress is not very true.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; colo=
r:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0cm 0cm 0c=
m 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org; mpls@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi, </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whi=
ch states:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a fl=
ow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at th=
e ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error pru=
ne. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </span></p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0c=
m 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; c=
olor:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spr=
ing &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US">
</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; colo=
r:black">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have =
these questions I'd like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of=
 using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Pat=
h Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels, o=
ne for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.</span></li><li class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the cou=
nters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counter=
s or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). =
But in addition I'd propose
 to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigge=
r the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to =
the predefined Collector.</span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counte=
rs per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are =
maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on th=
e
 node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some o=
ld counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be =
useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal =
the end of the measurement and trigger
 release of counters.</span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 04:01:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<body bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">IMHO, OAM is a fundamental function that is for an operator to ru=
nning their SR network.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">I hope we=A1=AFd better not repeat the philosophy debate here. We=
 should focus on the specific use case/requirement/technologies.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Xuxiaohu
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; Zafar Ali (zali); Greg Mirsky; draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; mpls; spring<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"><br>
The beauty of MPLS-SR is less states are required. To keep it as beautiful =
as possible, it'd better for us to overcome the impulsion of adding more an=
d more complicated functions.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2<span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span>=A3=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E</span>=A3=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span>=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8<span lang=3D"EN-US">-</sp=
an>=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">Mach Chen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco=
.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregim=
irsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;=
mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=
=CE=CC=E5">2017-11-16 11:29:12<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=CB=CE=CC=E5"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Hi Zafar,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Given that SR supports SID Binding, states only maintained at ing=
ress is not very true.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Best regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Mach</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">
mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whi=
ch states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a fl=
ow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at th=
e ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error pru=
ne. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =A1=AD Zafar <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;co=
lor:black">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spri=
ng &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com=
">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color=
:black">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have t=
hese questions I'd like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN-=
US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two sp=
ecial purpose labels, one for each case. Then
 the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:=
p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the pa=
th? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for =
the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID).
 But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another spec=
ial purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow wit=
h the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li=
><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. =
In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as=
 long as collection of statistics is enabled.
 If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection t=
o flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow gra=
nularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may =
be used to signal the end of the
 measurement and trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2922AE4DDdggeml510mbschi_--


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From: "Chengli (IP Technology Research)" <chengli13@huawei.com>
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>,  Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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From: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Pals] [mpls]  ELI/EL for the PW
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [Pals]   ELI/EL for the PW
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--_000_754FC568CFA54DC08A5CED99563F2E4Ccienacom_--


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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:24:25 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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Loa,

I=E2=80=99m not aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-l=
abel.

Cheers,
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: mpls <mpls-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 11:16
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Cc: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-=
entropy-label@ietf.org>
Subject: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label

    Are you aware of any IPR that applies to=20
    draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label?



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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:36:37 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+b+ERkNqQqCLyPhKLaZuMp0jAyOFW7FTb=0QKsOyRy10auyrA@mail.gmail.com> <E4E0C34F-27A7-43A3-BACE-2EFDB3D8600C@gmail.com> <CA+b+ERmyzCw+VkcVqMmnOPbmf8aE0Sp2kbicomAL7hGtCO8Phg@mail.gmail.com> <7EAFDDD7-2248-4AAD-BBD0-B463AF5CC253@gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D1EE@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3593680601_1614002086
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ATM would give us event better visibility ;-)

=20

I=E2=80=99m not advocating for a particular solution, nor expressing my liking of=
 anything proposed, just stating that there a business need, especially for =
those, migrating from RSVP-TE to SR.

There=E2=80=99s big difference between per LSP (not per flow) networking state an=
d accounting in a system=E2=80=A6

=20

Perhaps obvious =E2=80=93 the value of an architecture is not in its abstract bea=
uty (which I fully appreciate) but in its usability and value created.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 11:21
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.n=
et>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20


If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?


=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Jeff Tantsura

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Robert Raszuk<robert@raszuk.net>

=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>;Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;=
spring<spring@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 11:09:13

=20

Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) cou=
nters per LSP.

Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: <rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, sp=
ring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco=
.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-sprin=
g-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.

=20

Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?

=20

thx

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Robert,

=20

HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.

An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import prop=
erty of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt whe=
n business need arises. =20

=20

Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as=
 a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=
=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first pa=
cket in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that =
is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record=
.

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@r=
aszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mp=
ls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.

=20

But no new labels are needed.

=20

See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields o=
f actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same fields=
 of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for you.

=20

Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long a=
s such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.

=20

cheers,

r.

=20

On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20

=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg


_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

_______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@=
ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>ATM w=
ould give us event better visibility ;-)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>I=E2=80=99m not advocating for a particular =
solution, nor expressing my liking of anything proposed, just stating that t=
here a business need, especially for those, migrating from RSVP-TE to SR.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>There=E2=80=
=99s big difference between per LSP (not per flow) networking state and accoun=
ting in a system=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:14.0pt'>Perhaps obvious =E2=80=93 the value of an architecture is not in =
its abstract beauty (which I fully appreciate) but in its usability and valu=
e created.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14=
.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
14.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:14.0pt'>Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:soli=
d #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-=
left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt=
;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 11:21<br><b>To: </b>Jeff Ta=
ntsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;, Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&=
gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spri=
ng@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &l=
t;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subje=
ct: </b>RE: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;marg=
in-left:.5in'><br>If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state =
is needed?<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter><=
/div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margi=
n-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif=
'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></=
span>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86=
-13910161692">+86-13910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",=
serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a=
><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun=
'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mi=
ncho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></s=
pan>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dep=
t<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt=
;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Jeff Tantsura<o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-heigh=
t:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">ro=
bert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zal=
i@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS M=
incho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Sim=
Sun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",=
serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 11:09=
:13<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;li=
ne-height:15.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:14.0pt'>Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end=
 platforms) counters per LSP.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Having the same functional=
ity with SR seems rather logical.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-=
top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </sp=
an></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&lt;rraszuk@gmail.com&gt; =
on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursda=
y, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br><b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@=
gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsk=
y &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mp=
ls@ietf.org&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] =
Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths=
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in=
'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0i=
n'>As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.<o=
:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>Yes you may =
have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?<o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>thx<o:p></o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &qu=
ot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant=
.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;=
border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;=
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Robert,</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>HW counters are rather preciou=
s resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the point.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>An architec=
ture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import property of a go=
od architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to adapt when business n=
eed arises. &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Keeping =
semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (here encoded as a label)=
 that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter=
 hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet is the first packet in t=
he flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique=
 and could be resolved by a management layer into accounting record.</span><=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></=
o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt=
 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;=
color:black'>spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br><b>D=
ate: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br><b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt=
;<br><b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>The architecture is fine. This is accou=
nting state not forwarding state.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>But no new labels are needed.<o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>See on ingress you apply sr =
label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all you n=
eed is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egress and=
 you have path accounting required for you.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Besides this method also seamlessly w=
orks over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess with the packet=
 content of those tuples.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>r.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'>Concur.=
 Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of view.=
 Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have=
 to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xiaohu <br><br><o:p></o:p>=
</p><div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><div class=3DM=
soNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 =
width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'><s=
pan style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS M=
incho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13=
910161692</a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br=
><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'=
font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=
=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span st=
yle=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho=
",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D'font-family:"PMingLiU",serif'><br></span>=
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pad=
ding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (zali)</span><o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-heig=
ht:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [mpls] [spring=
] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5=
in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=
=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-=
left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in=
'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstrac=
t of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet=
f-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which states:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through a=
ny topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nod=
es to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>In=
 addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also=
 affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller jo=
b much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex=
 and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Than=
ks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>=
spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </=
b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mail=
to:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.o=
rg</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>than=
k you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these question=
s I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:2.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7=
</span><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nb=
sp; </span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both =
SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two s=
pecial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would =
not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D=
'margin-left:2.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</sp=
an><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; =
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particula=
r flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR =
to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefi=
ned Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:2.0in'><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol'>=C2=B7</span><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp; </span>And the last, h=
ave you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Consid=
erations you've stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of=
 statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn o=
ff/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer gran=
ularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps =
the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger=
 release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.5in'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:1.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0=
pt;margin-left:1.5in'><br>_______________________________________________<br=
>mpls mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ie=
tf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockq=
uote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.5in'>______________=
_________________________________ spring mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:spring=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/spring</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></body></html>

--B_3593680601_1614002086--




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From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <wim.henderickx@nokia.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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From nobody Wed Nov 15 21:35:43 2017
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Mach Chen'" <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "'Jeff Tantsura'" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, "'Robert Raszuk'" <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: "'draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths'" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "'spring'" <spring@ietf.org>, "'mpls'" <mpls@ietf.org>, "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" <zali@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 05:35:09 -0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Let's unpick a couple of things...
=20
1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking =
about peer SR-path accounting
2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a =
marker in the packets
3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the =
network
But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is =
good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they =
are necessary.
To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or =
consider ECMP.
=20
This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP =
networks.
=20
Adrian
=20

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<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>Let's unpick a couple =
of things...<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>1. This work is not =
talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR-path =
accounting<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>2. ipfix on its own =
does not cut it because you still have to put a marker in the =
packets<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>3. Yes, SR assumes =
there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the =
network<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>But this third point =
causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is good, but we want to =
do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are =
necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>To get the full =
picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or consider =
ECMP.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:#1F497D'>This discussion will =
not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP =
networks.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-=
bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_12FD_01D35E9C.AD55B220--


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From: Kireeti Kompella <kireeti.kompella@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 13:35:35 +0800
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/5yLO322-jSn7e5K-XxvDfnMvI8s>
Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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I am not aware of any undisclosed IPR that applies to this draft.

Kireeti.

> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:16, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
>=20
> Working Group,
>=20
> We are currently preparing draft draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label for a=
 second wglc.
>=20
> Part of this preparation is to do a final IPR poll.
>=20
> Note that we opted to repeat the IPR poll even though we did an IPR poll a=
t first wglc, there are two reasons (1) it is 18 months since the first
> wglc and, (2) my archive of the responses from the last IPR poll is
> (blush) not complete or they are broken.
>=20
> This mail is to start the IPR poll.
>=20
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-la=
bel?
>=20
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>=20
> There are three IPR disclosures against draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-
> label.
>=20
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant
> IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The
> document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been
> received from each author and contributor.
>=20
> If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
> IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>=20
>=20
> /Loa
> mpls wg co-chair
> --=20
>=20
>=20
> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> Senior MPLS Expert
> Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>=20
>=20


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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: mpls-chairs <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 05:53:50 +0000
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<div style=3D""><br>
Hi cochairs,<br>
<br>
I'm aware an IPR related to section 10.1. Single EL at the bottom of the st=
ack. This approach is considered and but is rejected in the current version=
. Hence I wonder whether such IPR should be declared as well.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B=
5C4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Loa Andersson</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.or=
g">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>mpls-chairs&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-chairs=
@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;;draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-labe=
l&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org">draft=
-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>[mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-en=
tropy-label</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:16:49</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Working Group,<br>
<br>
We are currently preparing draft draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label <br>
for a second wglc.<br>
<br>
Part of this preparation is to do a final IPR poll.<br>
<br>
Note that we opted to repeat the IPR poll even though we did an IPR poll <b=
r>
at first wglc, there are two reasons (1) it is 18 months since the first<br=
>
wglc and, (2) my archive of the responses from the last IPR poll is<br>
(blush) not complete or they are broken.<br>
<br>
This mail is to start the IPR poll.<br>
<br>
Are you aware of any IPR that applies to <br>
draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label?<br>
<br>
If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules<br>
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).<br>
<br>
There are three IPR disclosures against draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-<br>
label.<br>
<br>
If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to<br>
this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant<br>
IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The<br>
document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been<br>
received from each author and contributor.<br>
<br>
If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or<br>
contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any<br=
>
IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<br>
<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
&nbsp; mpls wg co-chair<br>
-- <br>
<br>
<br>
Loa Andersson&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; email: loa@pi.nu<br>
Senior MPLS Expert<br>
Huawei Technologies (consultant)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; phone: &#43;46 739=
 81 21 64<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
mpls@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><br>
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXoVCpRmkO+MSSkq89DdRnV01KaMVyDQAgAAFIgCAAImJ7IAAM149
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:25:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<div style=3D""><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:21:46</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D""><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Cheers=
,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">&lt;rraszuk@gmail.=
com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in">Co=
ncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wou=
ld have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in; text-a=
lign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</s=
pan> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</spa=
n><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-13910161692=
</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=
=B8</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=CD=F8</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=C2=E7=D5=BD</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=C2=D4=D3=EB</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=
=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=D6=F7</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=
=CC=E2</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</spa=
n></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through d=
raft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><b=
r>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
_______________________ spring mailing list
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 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,  Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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<div style=3D"">Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it's worthwhile to=
 consider how to address this business demand by using the unified SR appro=
ach (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-mpls-04-=
draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/).
 More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry t=
he path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to ad=
dress the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Gre=
g Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 14:25:32</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D""><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pa=
ths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:21:46</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D""><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2 Xuxiaohu<br>
M=A3=BA<a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E=A3=BA<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8-=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=
=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #B5C=
4DF; font-size:14px; line-height:20px; padding:8px">
<div><b>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rob=
ert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawe=
i.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
pring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels i=
n draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Cheers=
,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">&lt;rraszuk@gmail.=
com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;=
, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt; color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in">Co=
ncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wou=
ld have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in; text-a=
lign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</s=
pan> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</spa=
n><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-13910161692=
</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
<br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=
=B8</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=CD=F8</=
span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=C2=E7=D5=BD</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=C2=D4=D3=EB</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:SimSun">=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;PMingLiU&quot;,serif"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:s=
olid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=
=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=D6=F7</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=
=CC=E2</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS M=
incho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</spa=
n></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in; line-height:15.0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar </p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt; color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt; color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through d=
raft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt; font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; f=
ont-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt; margin-left:1.0in"><b=
r>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
_______________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Well I still do not think we need anything new on the wire for this but
apparently half folks here do not get it ;)

So for those who need it we can just insert 8 octets of vxlan between label
stack and packet and use vnid as path id.

thx
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 14:46, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it's worthwhile to consider how
> to address this business demand by using the unified SR approach (
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-
> 100-mpls-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/).
> More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry
> the path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to
> address the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Xuxiaohu
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.=
com>;Robert Raszuk<
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A *draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-s=
r-paths<draft-
> hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>;Gre=
g
> Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 14:25:32
>
>
> s/per flow/per path.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Xuxiaohu
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.=
com>;Robert Raszuk<
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A *draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-s=
r-paths<draft-
> hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;Greg Mirsky<
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>;spring<spring@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<
> zali@cisco.com>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 11:21:46
>
>
> If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Jeff Tantsura
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Robert Raszuk<robert@raszuk.net>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A *Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>;Greg Mirsky<g=
regimirsky@gmail.com>;
> spring<spring@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;Zafar Ali (zali)<
> zali@cisco.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-
> hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels =
in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 11:09:13
>
> Today, if you run RSVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platfo=
rms)
> counters per LSP.
>
> Having the same functionality with SR seems rather logical.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> *From: *<rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net=
>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50
> *To: *Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
,
> spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <
> zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> As explained it is not needed to get all information required per path.
>
>
>
> Yes you may have N:1 mapping of flows to path so what is the problem ?
>
>
>
> thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s beside the =
point.
>
> An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very import
> property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to
> adapt when business need arises.
>
>
>
> Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metadata (h=
ere encoded as a
> label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup would yield an
> =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter creation if the packet=
 is the first
> packet in the flow. Value of the label would be hashed in the counter ID
> that is unique and could be resolved by a management layer into accountin=
g
> record.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26
> *To: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls
> <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>,
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> The architecture is fine. This is accounting state not forwarding state.
>
>
>
> But no new labels are needed.
>
>
>
> See on ingress you apply sr label stack based on some match of the fields
> of actual packet. So all you need is to do accounting on the very same
> fields of the packets on egress and you have path accounting required for
> you.
>
>
>
> Besides this method also seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long
> as such SFs do not mess with the packet content of those tuples.
>
>
>
> cheers,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, "Xuxiaohu" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
> =C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both =
SR
> Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
> special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
> would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>
> =C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
> course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
> particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
> propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, =
to
> trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
> out-band to the predefined Collector.
>
> =C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per f=
low.
> In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as
> long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope=
,
> you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters=
.
> I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
> operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end o=
f
> the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
> _______________________________________________ spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Well I still do not think we need anything new on the wir=
e for this but apparently half folks here do not get it ;)<div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So for those who need it we can just insert 8 =
octets of vxlan between label stack and packet and use vnid as path id.</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Nov 16, 2017 14:46, &quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@hua=
wei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">




<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it&#39;s worthwhile to consid=
er how to address this business demand by using the unified SR approach (<a=
 href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-mpls=
-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>meeting/100/materials/slides-<wbr>1=
00-mpls-04-draft-xu-mpls-<wbr>unified-source-routing-<wbr>instruction-ietf1=
00/</a>).
 More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry t=
he path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to ad=
dress the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.<=
wbr>com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>mpls=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 14:25:32</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Xuxiaohu</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Jeff Tantsura&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.<=
wbr>com</a>&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsky&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">m=
p<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 11:21:46</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Jeff Tantsura</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;</=
div>
<div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A </b>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>Greg Mir=
sky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">m<wbr>pls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cis=
co.com</a>&gt;;draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-f=
or-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose=
 labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 11:09:13</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-7956128838195332161WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=E2=80=99d get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP=
.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,=
</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>&gt; on behalf=
 of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank=
">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregim=
irsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<=
wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-tr=
affic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=E2=80=99s besid=
e the point.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. =C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =E2=80=93 what=E2=80=99s needed, is a metad=
ata (here encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lo=
okup would yield an =E2=80=9Ccounter hit=E2=80=9D, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>account=
ing-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>=
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">Con=
cur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point=
 of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we =
would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-al=
ign:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=
=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif=
"><br>
</span>M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</=
span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com<=
/a><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=
=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&=
quot;,serif">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=
=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=
=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=
=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;PMingLiU&quot;,serif=
"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept</p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none;border-top:so=
lid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=
=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E9=
=A2=98</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mi=
ncho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=E2=80=9CSR allows to en=
force a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state =
only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar =
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through dr=
aft. I have these questions I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two spe=
cial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would n=
ot have to lose the bit for C flag.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=C2=B7</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintai=
ned as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node =
scope, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><br=
>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
______<wbr>_________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--94eb2c0756101f4117055e144628
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Adrian

I do not agree with with #2 .. no marker of any sort is needed.

And debugging LDP networks is no different then debugging IP networks so
sure some who are used to ATM/Frame Relay find it very hard to troubleshoot.

Best
r.


On Nov 16, 2017 13:35, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

Let's unpick a couple of things...



1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about
peer SR-path accounting

2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marker
in the packets

3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the network

But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is
good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are
necessary.

To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or
consider ECMP.



This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP
networks.



Adrian

--94eb2c0756101f4117055e144628
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Adrian<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
I do not agree with with #2 .. no marker of any sort is needed.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And debugging LDP networks is no di=
fferent then debugging IP networks so sure some who are used to ATM/Frame R=
elay find it very hard to troubleshoot.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">Best</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 13:35, &quot;Adrian =
Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgc=
olor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"=
m_-1428235729880054663WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#1f497d">Let&#39;s unpick a couple of things...<u></u><u></u></span></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. This wor=
k is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR-pat=
h accounting<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
color:#1f497d">2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have t=
o put a marker in the packets<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) =
state per SR-path in the network<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">But this third point causes a tension: w=
e want to use SR because it is good, but we want to do transit node diagnos=
tics because (frankly) they are necessary.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">To get the full picture of why=
 they are necessary read the draft, or consider ECMP.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">This discu=
ssion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP networks.<font=
 color=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></p><font color=3D"#888888">=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Adrian<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></font></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>=
</div></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Folks,

This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.

Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
per path in transit nodes.

Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it
with RSVP-TE.

SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never
intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.

So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
around.

Thx
r.


On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

Greg,

I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that ability=
 to
measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
require OAM function for SR.



I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_te=
xt=3D1>
draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.

The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
implementation report
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-repor=
t-00>
draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.



I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.



Regards,

Sasha



Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>

Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com



*From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
*Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
*To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
*Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
*Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths



Dear All,

I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they
will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
discussion of what measurement method to use.



Regards,

Greg



On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
would have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu



------------------------------

=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)

*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.or=
g
>

*=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels =
in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

*=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10



Hi,



This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract
of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while mai=
ntaining
per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D



In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
procedure very complex and unscalable.



Thanks



Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar





*From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
gregimirsky@gmail.com>
*Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
*To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.or=
g"
<mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
*Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
accounting-for-sr-paths



Hi Shraddha,

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
questions I'd like to discuss:

   - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
   Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two
   special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
   would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
   - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
   course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the
   particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
   propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label,=
 to
   trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
   out-band to the predefined Collector.
   - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.
   In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained=
 as
   long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e,
   you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counter=
s.
   I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for
   operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end =
of
   the measurement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all w=
hat we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Now out of the sudden I see=
 requirement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Well you can do it today w=
ith SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds a=
bility for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection orie=
nted protocol nor architecture.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go =
and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in tran=
sit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other=
 way around.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">r.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, &quot;Alexander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitel=
e.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8433015125869636717WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p><div cla=
ss=3D"elided-text">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div>
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 08:25:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 16:33:10 +0800
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: Xiaohu Xu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Zafar, et.al,
as I'm the one who have started the thread I'd like to clarify and
reiterate my point Performance measurements are required not only e2e but
on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on that, then we are
ready to discuss how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.

Regards, Greg

On Nov 16, 2017 4:25 PM, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> I also agree that it=E2=80=99s not a question on requirement but about a =
procedure
> (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR
> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement. We can solv=
e
> this problem without breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a dra=
ft
> before the next IETF.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM
> *To: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc=
ounting-for-sr-paths
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> I fully agree with you that OAM tools are important.
>
> I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the
> same terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label
> usage due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>;draft-hegd=
e-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 10:27:55
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose lab=
els in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>

--94eb2c1ce7fa709b10055e157872
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Zafar, <a href=3D"http://et.al">et.al</a>,=C2=A0<div d=
ir=3D"auto">as I&#39;m the one who have started the thread I&#39;d like to =
clarify and reiterate my point Performance measurements are required not on=
ly e2e but on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on that, =
then we are ready to discuss how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Regards, Greg=C2=A0</div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16,=
 2017 4:25 PM, &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisc=
o.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_5851228013806798694WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Folks, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I also agree that it=E2=80=99s not a question on req=
uirement but about a procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR Architecture, highly unscalable and complic=
ated to implement. We can solve this problem without
 breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a draft before the next IET=
F. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Xuxiaohu &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wb=
r>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traf=
fic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, spring &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">I fully agree with yo=
u that OAM tools are important.
<br>
<br>
I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the s=
ame terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label usag=
e due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxia=
ohu<br>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com<=
/a><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=
=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&=
quot;,serif">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=
=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=
=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=
=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span>=
</b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=
=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=
=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-<wbr>=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draf=
t-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E9=A2=98</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 10:27:55<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxia=
ohu<br>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=EF=BC=9A</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com<=
/a><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=
=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&=
quot;,serif">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E7=BB=9C=
=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=
=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E5=
=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span>=
</b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=
=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E9=A2=98</span></b><b=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:0in">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c1ce7fa709b10055e157872--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:15:07 +0800
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Sasha,
many thanks.
I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
(regrettably expired):

   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.


I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document
is useful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And
the document will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion
that PM may be performed both e2e and over SPME.


Regards,

Greg


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha,<div>many thanks.</div><div>I&#39;d point to <a h=
ref=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03"=
>SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</div><div><pre class=3D"gma=
il-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)">   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet=
 loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</pre><pre class=3D=
"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin=
-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica=
, sans-serif" style=3D"">I think that our discussion indicates that OAM req=
uirements document is useful at least for as long as we&#39;re developing O=
AM toolset. And the document will benefit from clarification to reflect our=
 discussion that PM may be performed both e2e and over SPME.</font></pre><p=
re class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D""><br></fo=
nt></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom=
:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D=
"">Regards,</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-=
serif" style=3D"">Greg</font></pre></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Va=
inshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecite=
le.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-2858281648368226202WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><di=
v class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<br clear=3D"both">
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__________<br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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__________<br>
</div>


</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11401f6a74f644055e160e8a--


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Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/Ol6y8gG5-UsiHdwXiIbpImQri0c>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--_000_LEXPR01MB00947008F11422802AE2FFE39C2E0LEXPR01MB0094DEUP_--


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From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" <acee@cisco.com>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
CC: mpls-chairs <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
Thread-Index: AQHTXolQRV3XpH61aUuJiq3/TA3IOKMW1UwA///rA4A=
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:38:55 +0000
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Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Greg,

It is easy to support req 13 counters but those are interface counters
without history to which sr-mpls path it belongs.

SR-MPLS is *NOT* connection oriented and since you are poping domain wide
labels you have no path history in transit nodes.

So if anyone here now attempts to make SR-MPLS to become connection
oriented and carry and inspect per path ID in transit nodes this is
fundamental change.

Perhaps SR-MPLS spec should explicitely clarify in version 12 that this is
not the intended objective of sr-mpls.

thx
r.


On Nov 16, 2017 17:15, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sasha,
many thanks.
I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
(regrettably expired):

   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.


I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document
is useful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And
the document will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion
that PM may be performed both e2e and over SPME.


Regards,

Greg


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>


_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
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--94eb2c1cb82ce7f5d7055e16773f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Greg,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I=
t is easy to support req 13 counters but those are interface counters witho=
ut history to which sr-mpls path it belongs.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">SR-MPLS is *NOT* connection oriented and since you are=
 poping domain wide labels you have no path history in transit nodes.</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So if anyone here now attempt=
s to make SR-MPLS to become connection oriented and carry and inspect per p=
ath ID in transit nodes this is fundamental change.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps SR-MPLS spec should explicitely clarify=
 in version 12 that this is not the intended objective of sr-mpls.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16,=
 2017 17:15, &quot;Greg Mirsky&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmai=
l.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockq=
uote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha,<div>many thanks.</div><div>I&#=
39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-o=
am-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably e=
xpired):</div><div><pre class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-newpage" style=
=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
   REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
            Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
            probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</pre><pre class=3D=
"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-t=
op:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"m_-80997=
77619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I think that our =
discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is useful at least for =
as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the document will benefit =
from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be performed both =
e2e and over SPME.</font></pre><pre class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-ne=
wpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font fa=
ce=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></pre><pre class=3D"m_-80997=
77619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Regards,</font></=
pre><pre class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, san=
s-serif">Greg</font></pre></div></div><div class=3D"elided-text"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:1=
1 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexande=
r.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<w=
br>com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399m_-2858281648368226202WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. <u></u>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.c<wbr>om</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><di=
v class=3D"m_-8099777619497475399h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=
=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp<w=
br>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segment-routin<wbr>g-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<br clear=3D"both">
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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</div>


</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:50:58 +0000
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Subject: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "xuxiaohu@huawei.com" <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "gregimirsky@gmail.com" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 01:56:34 2017
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:56:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:00:17 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 18:18:54 +0800
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To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Sasha,
completely agree that the current version of the #13 does not reflect the
use case at hand. Thus my suggestion to edit #13, update the Requirements
document to reflect the use case and keep the SR OAM requirements document
alive, not necessary to publish, for similar occasions.
In regards to SPME, Dave's wording is perfect and I withdraw mine.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> I do not think that the quoted requirement from the SR OAM Requirements
> draft is relevant for this discussion, because, from my POV, it does not
> refer to *ability to measure* *actual traffic carried in a specific SR-TE
> LSP across a specific link in the transit node*. And this is actually
> what draft-hegde is all about.
>
>
>
> I also do not see how SPME (an ill-begotten MPLS-TP construct) is relevan=
t
> for this discussion.
>
>
>
> As for the added state in transit node: From mu POV ability to recognize
> specific SR-TE Path ID in the label stack of a packet and to update the
> counters allocated to this SR-TE Path is a forwarding plane state.
>
>
>
> My 2c,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:15 AM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>=
;
> Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
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>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
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--94eb2c074a2095d01c055e16f2e6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sasha,<div>completely agree that the current version of=
 the #13 does not reflect the use case at hand. Thus my suggestion to edit =
#13, update the Requirements document to reflect the use case and keep the =
SR OAM requirements document alive, not necessary to publish, for similar o=
ccasions.</div><div>In regards to SPME, Dave&#39;s wording is perfect and I=
 withdraw mine.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, =
2017 at 5:46 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein=
@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-418559395824718156WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I do not think that the quoted requir=
ement from the SR OAM Requirements draft is relevant for this discussion, b=
ecause, from my POV, it does not refer to
<b><i>ability to measure</i></b> <b><i>actual traffic carried in a specific=
 SR-TE LSP across a specific link in the transit node</i></b>. And this is =
actually what draft-hegde is all about.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I also do not see how SPME (an ill-be=
gotten MPLS-TP construct) is relevant for this discussion.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As for the added state in transit nod=
e: From mu POV ability to recognize specific SR-TE Path ID in the label sta=
ck of a packet and to update the counters allocated
 to this SR-TE Path is a forwarding plane state.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">My 2c,<u></u><u></u></span></p><span =
class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:=
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ec=
itele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Greg Mirsky [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 11:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Xuxiaohu=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huaw=
ei.com</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">M=
ichael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-s=
pring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase=
@<wbr>ietf.org</a><br>
</span></span></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring=
] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.<u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br=
>
M<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a>
<br>
E<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=
=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E4=
=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=
=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quo=
t;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Micro=
soft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quo=
t;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any top=
ological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to=
 the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
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CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
</div></div></div>


</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
To: <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
CC: <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, <spring@ietf.org>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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--_000_LEXPR01MB00940EBA6B17C737022F5F529C2E0LEXPR01MB0094DEUP_--


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From: <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXj7mzZMLUil1+kqoV5nACrL66aMWMYiAgAAGKoCAAGAygIAAAxkAgAAzpHA=
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:48:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/N4CoHZqh5rpdvcQgq4fdCFDzVGs>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Dave,

Two main fundamental points:

1.

Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
egress) of a given domain ?

SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from there
over disjoined path to native path.

How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?

2.

To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled
to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.

Thx,
R.


On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com=
>
wrote:

> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
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> _______________
>
>
>
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--f403045f16a2699eec055e176083
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Dave,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small">1.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to e=
nd (ingress to egress) of a given domain ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is =
most beauty of SR that you can add one label to forward packets to differen=
t node in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flow=
ing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">How in those deployment cases all of tho=
se discussions here even apply ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">2.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">To=
 make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are tightly=
 coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled to eac=
h other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In those ca=
ses there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R.</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.=
allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_3051534911904765766WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achi=
eved with pairwise measurement points).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Are transit measurement points required as wel=
l=E2=80=A6..<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Goro=
khovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-u=
secase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.=
org</a>;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following
 questions:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25=
in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-S=
R?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25=
in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-=
SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_3051534911904765766MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25=
in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed =
for MPLS-SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>many thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=
=A0 SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet<u></u><u></=
u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using A=
ctive (using synthetic<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data s=
tream) mode.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vai=
nshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_=
blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure
 traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OA=
M function for SR.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><span><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to =
deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and tro=
ubleshoot the network.
 True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even the=
y will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their o=
perational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and wh=
y ability to quantify the flow behavior
 at internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&=
#39;s discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and vali=
d. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>Concur. Althoug=
h it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Ne=
twork simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence
 we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
>
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an><span> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86=
-13910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&q=
uot;,sans-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=
=A1=88</span><span>-</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:=
&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=
=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><span=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am qu=
oting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=9C</span><span>SR allows=
 to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaining
 per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span lang=3D"ZH=
-CN">=E2=80=9D </span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>In addition to creating states at transit and =
egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscal=
able. It also makes
 controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedu=
re very complex and unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;color:black">Shraddha,</span><span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR P=
ath Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two spec=
ial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would
 not have to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particul=
ar flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to
 use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger t=
he LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the=
 predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.=
 In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintain=
ed as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node s=
cope,
 you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters.=
 I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for o=
perators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of t=
he measurement and trigger release
 of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
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CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:52:59 +0100
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To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */

Dave,

Two main fundamental points:

1.

Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
egress) of a given domain ?

SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from there
over disjoined path to native path.

How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?

2.

To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled
to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.

Thx,
R.

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com=
>
wrote:

> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><div class=3D"gmail_default">/* resendi=
ng and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=C2=A0</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Dave,</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Two mai=
n fundamental points:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default">1.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths=
 are end to end (ingress to egress) of a given domain ?</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">SR does not require e=
nd to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR that you can add one lab=
el to forward packets to different node in SPF topology and you make sure t=
hat traffic will be natively flowing from there over disjoined path to nati=
ve path.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here ev=
en apply ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default">2.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR se=
gments are tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are =
not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit =
nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Thx,</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default">R.</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David All=
an I <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-84672208534897471WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in=
">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achi=
eved with pairwise measurement points).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in=
">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Are transit measurement points required as wel=
l=E2=80=A6..<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Goro=
khovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-u=
secase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.=
org</a>;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following
 questions:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>1.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-S=
R?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>2.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-=
SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-84672208534897471MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d"><span>3.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Rom=
an&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed =
for MPLS-SR?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>many thanks.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-sr-oam-requirement-03" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=
=A0 SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet<u></u><u></=
u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using A=
ctive (using synthetic<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data s=
tream) mode.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vai=
nshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_=
blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure
 traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OA=
M function for SR.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><span><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><span><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I cannot imagine that operators will agree to =
deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and tro=
ubleshoot the network.
 True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even the=
y will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their o=
perational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and wh=
y ability to quantify the flow behavior
 at internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&=
#39;s discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and vali=
d. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>Concur. Althoug=
h it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Ne=
twork simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence
 we would have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
>
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an><span> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86=
-13910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=
=EF=BC=9A</span><span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&q=
uot;,sans-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=
=A1=88</span><span>-</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:=
&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=
=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><span=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am qu=
oting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=9C</span><span>SR allows=
 to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaining
 per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span lang=3D"ZH=
-CN">=E2=80=9D </span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>In addition to creating states at transit and =
egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscal=
able. It also makes
 controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedu=
re very complex and unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;color:black">Shraddha,</span><span>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR P=
ath Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two spec=
ial purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would
 not have to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particul=
ar flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to
 use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger t=
he LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the=
 predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0in">
<span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow.=
 In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintain=
ed as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node s=
cope,
 you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters.=
 I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for o=
perators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of t=
he measurement and trigger release
 of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
CC: spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/YNHGrbp-D-lqnwtJy9l8qvBq_sc>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 03:43:52 2017
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
Thread-Index: AQHTXsB2OKe08a4/AEeSgx6LvofQhqMWxNWAgAAPzICAAApZMA==
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:43:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">We are dealing with an SR network in which the data plane is MPLS rath=
er than IP.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Xuxiaohu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;; Robert Raszuk &lt=
;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;; spring &lt;spring@i=
etf.org&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;; mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.or=
g&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">Just an idea occurring in my mind: Maybe it'=
s worthwhile to consider how to address this business demand by using the u=
nified SR approach (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/mat=
erials/slides-100-mpls-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-=
ietf100/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/slides-100-mpl=
s-04-draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction-ietf100/</a>).
 More specifically, use the source port of the UDP tunnel header to carry t=
he path identity, just like the idea of using the unified SR approach to ad=
dress the load-balancing issue associated with the MPLS-SR.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Xuxiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Jeff Tantsur=
a&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">m=
pls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Gre=
g Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
4:25:32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><br>
s/per flow/per path.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Xuxiaohu<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Jeff Tantsur=
a&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;;Robert Raszuk&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.ne=
t</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Greg
 Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
;Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
1:21:46<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><br>
If so, why not directly use RSVP-TE if the per flow state is needed?<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Jeff Tantsur=
a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Robert Raszu=
k&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Xuxiaohu&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mir=
sky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;Zafar
 Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
1:09:13<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Today, if you run R=
SVP-TE, you=A1=AFd get (at least on high end platforms) counters per LSP.</=
span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Having the same fun=
ctionality with SR seems rather logical.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:rraszuk@gmail.com">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:50<br>
<b>To: </b>Jeff Tantsura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jef=
ftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org"=
>spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"=
>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">As explained it is not ne=
eded to get all information required per path.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Yes you may have N:1 mapp=
ing of flows to path so what is the problem ?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">thx<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">r.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:47, &q=
uot;Jeff Tantsura&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com">jeff=
tant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">HW counters are rather precious resources, but that=A1=AFs beside t=
he point.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">An architecture is not an immutable object, on contrary, a very imp=
ort property of a good architecture is flexibility and agility, ability to =
adapt when business need arises. &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">Keeping semantics aside =A8C what=A1=AFs needed, is a metadata (her=
e encoded as a label) that uniquely identifies a path, where FIB lookup wou=
ld yield an =A1=B0counter hit=A1=B1, potentially counter
 creation if the packet is the first packet in the flow. Value of the label=
 would be hashed in the counter ID that is unique and could be resolved by =
a management layer into accounting record.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;color:black">Jeff</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
14.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:26<br>
<b>To: </b>Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;, mpls &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">The architecture is fine=
. This is accounting state not forwarding state.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">But no new labels are ne=
eded.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">See on ingress you apply=
 sr label stack based on some match of the fields of actual packet. So all =
you need is to do accounting on the very same fields of the packets on egre=
ss and you have path accounting required
 for you.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Besides this method also=
 seamlessly works over non sr capable SFs as long as such SFs do not mess w=
ith the packet content of those tuples.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">r.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">On Nov 16, 2017 10:05, &=
quot;Xuxiaohu&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">
Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we w=
ould have to make some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=D0=
=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span> Xuxiaohu<span style=3D"font-family:PMingLiU"><br>
</span>M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,ser=
if">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a>
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E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=
=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:SimSun">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=
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ont-family:PMingLiU"><br>
</span>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development=
 Dept<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=
=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&qu=
ot;,serif">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;sp=
ring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&qu=
ot;,serif">=D6=F7</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:SimSun">=CC=E2</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;,serif">=A3=BA</span></b><b=
><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><b><s=
pan lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=
=E4=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;line-height:15.0pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">This draft breaks the SR=
 architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture docu=
ment
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFbw&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DErmkx05sbKf8rezSgTWtbNoRU0NCkfX8LQAVXujS=
OTc&amp;s=3Def3tcju6yWwGb7J7MfjMpJVL5O0J7NJUr8vaEBuI1fk&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">=A1=B0SR allows to enfor=
ce a flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state onl=
y at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=A1=B1
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">In addition to creating =
states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data pla=
ne and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and er=
ror prune. In summary, I find the procedure
 very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards =A1=AD Zafar <o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;color:black">Shraddha,</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;color:black">thank you for very well written and thought through dr=
aft. I have these questions I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR =
Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two=
 special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier wou=
ld not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cour=
se, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particu=
lar flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose t=
o use in-band mechanism, perhaps another
 special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flo=
w with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol">=A1=A4</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;
</span>And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow=
. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained =
as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scop=
e, you may have to turn off/on the
 collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity,=
 per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flo=
w itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger relea=
se of counters.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">Greg<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFbw&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DErmkx05sbKf8rezSgTWtbNoRU0NCkfX8LQAVXujSOTc&amp;s=3D5JJv1iTKb6YIcmmJ0E1W=
zZUxH3HkU_zOJc4SXRJNKas&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">________________________=
_______________________ spring mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a> <a=
 href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_spring&amp;d=3DDwMFbw&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DErmkx05sbKf8rezSgTWtbNoRU0NCkfX8LQAVXujSOTc&amp;s=3DhIyKCff30sGs4zIHazkj=
krYLg5FkJADEIEMtEoD0xdA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:53:05 +0100
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, mpls@ietf.org, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/PsZrk7vNjCQ0sSPzzPDu7kvRk3g>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Hi John,

If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal without
putting anything new on the wire.

Best,
r.

On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_mpls&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoC=
I&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswc=
GOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-PJ9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&e=3D=
>
>
>
>

--94eb2c1cb82c64d1aa055e1843a0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Hi John,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If =
so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal without put=
ting anything new on the wire.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Best,</div><div dir=3D"auto">r.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0 We developed this draft in response to r=
equests from our
 customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on a node in =
the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=
=C2=A0 In this situation, they need to be able to know which ingress nodes =
using which SR segment lists are sending
 traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sendi=
ng on each of its SR segment lists.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from that interfa=
ce in a controlled manner. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF to=
pology and you make sure that traffic will be
 natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled=
 to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically
 in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more
 sense. I would ask the following questions:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.25in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.=
0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.25in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.=
0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.25in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.=
0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0=
cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIV=
UWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through a=
ny topological path while maintaining per-flow
 state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><span lang=
=3D"ZH-CN">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-P=
J9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c1cb82c64d1aa055e1843a0--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/UEE9EKqByqNJYCEaOCqLUwOlyig>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 04:05:33 2017
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "Alexander Vainshtein" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
Thread-Index: AQHTXsB2OKe08a4/AEeSgx6LvofQhqMWxNWAgAAi3XA=
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:05:01 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/OgHb97-QWr4xtQe-WPtJvd9BfI0>
Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "Greg Mirsky" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:54:34 +0000
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/wyNU8_tlUSssy7bl5hEKwfJLO7M>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/_jK2r7HlzdZXbVy_u_mPbWjJzb4>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:32:17 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/FrA4xVLQ_mNAStrnisvRIJgvN-U>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">This I completely agree with, however, given that we have had similar =
counters in LSRs since the advent of MPLS/RSVP-TE I am not sure this is a =
=A1=B0complicated function=A1=B1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">Yours Irrespectively,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US">John<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN=
-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Xuxiaohu<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 15, 2017 10:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen &lt;mach.chen@huawei.com&gt;; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;zal=
i@cisco.com&gt;; Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;; draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounti=
ng-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;; mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;; spring
 &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><br>
The beauty of MPLS-SR is less states are required. To keep it as beautiful =
as possible, it'd better for us to overcome the impulsion of adding more an=
d more complicated functions.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692">&#43=
;86-13910161692</a> <br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=A3=BA</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">x=
uxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN">=CD=F8=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=
=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Mach Chen<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Zafar Ali (z=
ali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;Greg Mirsk=
y&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@=
ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">Re: [spring]=
 Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun">2017-11-16 1=
1:29:12<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Hi Za=
far,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Given=
 that SR supports SID Binding, states only maintained at ingress is not ver=
y true.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Best =
regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">Mach<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:#1F497D">&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 2:24 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">
mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFbw&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DH0f4eGIEJx8dGGNmVC6odbGYPjUtSzVjG1nidDV8=
1W4&amp;s=3D_uDfZ91-H1J1EfZbUnB1bCKToDMryuq30oQd8aOBquQ&amp;e=3D">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which=
 states:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A1=B0SR allows to enforce a flow through any topolo=
gical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=A1=B1
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =A1=AD Zafar <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">spring &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beh=
alf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@iet=
f.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I'd like to discuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Have you thought =
of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR P=
ath Identifier&#43;Source SID cases but request two special purpose labels,=
 one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
 would not have to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">And how you envision to collect t=
he counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all c=
ounters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier&#43;Source =
SID). But in addition I'd
 propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, t=
o trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-=
band to the predefined Collector.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">And the last, have you considered ability t=
o flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that=
 counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If=
 that is on
 the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off so=
me old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would=
 be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to sig=
nal the end of the measurement and
 trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
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CC: <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, <spring@ietf.org>, <robert@raszuk.net>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--_000_LEXPR01MB009434D438EFF03A231212779C2E0LEXPR01MB0094DEUP_--


From nobody Thu Nov 16 04:38:31 2017
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
Thread-Index: AQHTXsB2OKe08a4/AEeSgx6LvofQhqMWxNWAgAAPzICAAApZMIAABnGAgAALvpA=
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/5sYxAmZrw4408d2JZe8zMjGB1b0>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 04:46:14 2017
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: ShaoWen Ma <mashaowen@gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:22:22 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:44:14 +0000
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/B3VHMCzbfFJSgMJv1DbHJVRFt1I>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Shah, Himanshu" <hshah@ciena.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/n3QjWYxRwJBZStV-zouEsVUEw5o>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:43:46 +0100
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Hi John,

I think I did but let me restate ...

Imagine we have a network like below:


R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
            |
R5 --- R6


R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two
SR-MPLS paths:

P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4

(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).

So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... it
can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those
with respect to each path they take.

Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.

So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
(nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count which
are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exact
count of traffic per ingress segment chain.

In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
exact the same type of offline data correlation.

Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add labels
and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router's CLI to
get this data on the routers itself ?

Thx,
R.









On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> Or even just an extended email.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved withou=
t
> changing anything on the wire?
>
> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal withou=
t
> putting anything new on the wire.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_mpls&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoC=
I&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswc=
GOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-PJ9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&e=3D=
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>

--001a11491d2a39ff8d055e19cf79
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi John,</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">I think I did but let me restate ...</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Imagine we have a network like below:=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R5 --- R6</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">R1 and =
R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two SR-MPLS =
paths:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,h=
elvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">P1 - R1-R=
2-R3-R4</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetic=
a,sans-serif;font-size:small">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for i=
llustration).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So=
 on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... it ca=
n be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those wit=
h respect to each path they take.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So now we have all count=
ers needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2 (nor need to carry them in=
 the packets) as based on the tuples count which are used on ingress for ma=
pping we can correlate in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingre=
ss segment chain.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with ex=
act the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline=
 so bad that we must add labels and modify all hardware to be able to have =
comfort of using router&#39;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Thx,</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@junipe=
r.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_671809827882275110WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@<wbr>ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; John E Drake=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper=
.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the wire?<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6=
302" value=3D"+97239266302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" value=3D"+972549266302" target=3D"_blank"=
>+972-549266302</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0
 We developed this draft in response to requests from our customers that, a=
s described in our draft, have an interface on a node in the interior of an=
 SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=C2=A0 In this sit=
uation, they need to be able to know
 which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to th=
at interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each of =
its SR segment lists.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from
 that interface in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node
 in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing fr=
om there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are
 not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit=
 nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more
 sense. I would ask the following questions:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0=
cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIV=
UWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only
 at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D</span><span>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=A6</span>=
 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
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</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11491d2a39ff8d055e19cf79--


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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--001a114734aea0770e055e19f0d9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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> Hi,
>
>
>
> We are dealing with an SR network in which the data plane is MPLS rather
> than IP.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>

=E2=80=8BI think this is very important to stop here for a moment and discu=
ss ...
What is MPLS data plane ?

MPLS data plane can be connection less (constructed with LDP or IGP
extensions of domain wide labels) - that is really an IP based control
plane which controls the forwarding modulo tunnels to specific nodes
(SR-MPLS, GRE, VXLAN etc ....)

MPLS data plane can also be connection oriented (example using RSVP-TE=E2=
=80=8B)
which setup LSP across the network. Does not reserve nor guarantee anything
in the data plane (only if well done in the control plane - which btw some
folks still do not believe after so many years :-).

So here we are now really trying to take connection oriented model and push
it to connecton less paradigm.

Very bizarre ...

=E2=80=8BBest,
Robert.=E2=80=8B

--001a114734aea0770e055e19f0d9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_5105546781386434497WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">We are dealing with an=
 SR network in which the data plane is MPLS rather than IP.<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John</span></p></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BI t=
hink this is very important to stop here for a moment and discuss ... What =
is MPLS data plane ?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">M=
PLS data plane can be connection less (constructed with LDP or IGP extensio=
ns of domain wide labels) - that is really an IP based control plane which =
controls the forwarding modulo tunnels to specific nodes (SR-MPLS, GRE, VXL=
AN etc ....)=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">MPL=
S data plane can also be connection oriented (example using RSVP-TE=E2=80=
=8B) which setup LSP across the network. Does not reserve nor guarantee any=
thing in the data plane (only if well done in the control plane - which btw=
 some folks still do not believe after so many years :-).=C2=A0</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So here we are now really trying =
to take connection oriented model and push it to connecton less paradigm.=
=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Very bizarre ..=
.=C2=A0</div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=E2=80=8BBest,</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small">Robert.=E2=80=8B</div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

--001a114734aea0770e055e19f0d9--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 22:39:06 +0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmUxpqJad89C0oRoqPoTjUvu_K3CFZqyEaD-Fexv8x0L3w@mail.gmail.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>,  "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--001a113f22001e4981055e1a9574
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Hi John,
if network doesn't use payload information to handle ECMP then performance
measurement using RFC 8169-style or pure active OAM based on RFC 6374 will
certainly work. But if it is DPI-based hashing for ECMP, then there cannot
be guarantee that packets with GAL/G-ACh follow the same path as regular
packets. Of course, one can use GAL/G-ACh encapsulation as a tunnel, as
normal case and then do any sort of measurements.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 7:59 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Ruediger,
>
>
>
> There is also the possibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH
> containing the SR Segment List Id.  This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s s=
uggestion
> of using a VXLAN header.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM
> *To:* adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Adrian,
>
>
>
> to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an analysis may help to fin=
d a
> useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect traffic statistics als=
o for
> packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortest end to end path. There=E2=
=80=99s no simple
> howto, I think.
>
>
>
> For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add special labels to the s=
tack.
> What other options are there?
>
> -        Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stack only.
>
> -        Accounting of an n-label stack.
>
> -        Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID Labels and
> Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit the numb=
er
> of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labels carryi=
ng
> global routing information.
>
> -        A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label into the
> stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintained. One
> might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces the
> label stack carrying routing information relevant for the path. That woul=
d
> simplify accounting, but it requires suitable IGP functionality.
>
>
>
> None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (and simpler) ones I
> didn=E2=80=99t come upon?
>
>
>
> Regards, Ruediger
>
>
>
> *Von:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>] =
*Im
> Auftrag von *Adrian Farrel
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35
> *An:* 'Mach Chen' <mach.chen@huawei.com>; 'Jeff Tantsura' <
> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* 'draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths' <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; 'spring' <
> spring@ietf.org>; 'Zafar Ali (zali)' <zali@cisco.com>; 'mpls' <
> mpls@ietf.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Let's unpick a couple of things...
>
>
>
> 1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking abou=
t
> peer SR-path accounting
>
> 2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marke=
r
> in the packets
>
> 3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the netwo=
rk
>
> But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is
> good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they a=
re
> necessary.
>
> To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or
> consider ECMP.
>
>
>
> This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP
> networks.
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--001a113f22001e4981055e1a9574
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi John,<div>if network doesn&#39;t use payload informatio=
n to handle ECMP then performance measurement using RFC 8169-style or pure =
active OAM based on RFC 6374 will certainly work. But if it is DPI-based ha=
shing for ECMP, then there cannot be guarantee that packets with GAL/G-ACh =
follow the same path as regular packets. Of course, one can use GAL/G-ACh e=
ncapsulation as a tunnel, as normal case and then do any sort of measuremen=
ts.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 a=
t 7:59 PM, John E Drake <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juni=
per.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-6184090405600078515WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Ruediger,<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">There is also the poss=
ibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH containing the SR Segment L=
ist Id.=C2=A0 This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s suggestion of using a VXL=
AN header. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b><a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.=
Geib@telekom.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@=
olddog.co.uk</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"=
_blank">zali@cisco.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">Adrian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an ana=
lysis may help to find a useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect=
 traffic statistics also for packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortes=
t end to end path. There=E2=80=99s no simple howto, I think.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add sp=
ecial labels to the stack. What other options are there?<u></u><u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stac=
k only.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting of an n-label stack.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID L=
abels and Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit =
the number of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labe=
ls carrying global routing information.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label =
into the stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintain=
ed. One might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces =
the label stack carrying routing
 information relevant for the path. That would simplify accounting, but it =
requires suitable IGP functionality. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><span class=3D=
"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (a=
nd simpler) ones I didn=E2=80=99t come upon?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards, Ruediger<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Von:</b> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Adrian Farrel<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35<br>
<b>An:</b> &#39;<span lang=3D"DE">Mach Chen&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach=
.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Jeff=
 Tantsura&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Robert Raszuk&#39; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&#39=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; &#39;spring&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 &#39;Zafar Ali (zali)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; &#39;mpls&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Let&#39=
;s unpick a couple of things...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. This=
 work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR=
-path accounting<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">2. ipfi=
x on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marker in the =
packets<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Yes,=
 SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the network<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">But thi=
s third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is good, but w=
e want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are necessary.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">To get =
the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or consider ECMP=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">This di=
scussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP networks.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Adrian<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113f22001e4981055e1a9574--


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To: "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "Robert Raszuk" <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:46:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
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CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "draft-cheng-spring-path-segment@ietf.org" <draft-cheng-spring-path-segment@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Sri <sriganeshkini@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:01:33 -0800
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Cc: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, mpls-chairs <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label <draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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Hello,

I am not aware of any IPR related to the draft.

Xu, my understanding is that IPR on approaches that are rejected need not
be declared.

Thanks
Sri

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

>
> Hi cochairs,
>
> I'm aware an IPR related to section 10.1. Single EL at the bottom of the
> stack. This approach is considered and but is rejected in the current
> version. Hence I wonder whether such IPR should be declared as well.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
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=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *Loa Andersson
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A *mpls<mpls@ietf.org>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A *mpls-chairs<mpls-chairs@ietf.org>;draft-iet=
f-mpls-spring-
> entropy-label<draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org>
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A *[mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-e=
ntropy-label
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A *2017-11-16 11:16:49
>
> Working Group,
>
> We are currently preparing draft draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
> for a second wglc.
>
> Part of this preparation is to do a final IPR poll.
>
> Note that we opted to repeat the IPR poll even though we did an IPR poll
> at first wglc, there are two reasons (1) it is 18 months since the first
> wglc and, (2) my archive of the responses from the last IPR poll is
> (blush) not complete or they are broken.
>
> This mail is to start the IPR poll.
>
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to
> draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label?
>
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>
> There are three IPR disclosures against draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-
> label.
>
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant
> IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The
> document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been
> received from each author and contributor.
>
> If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
> IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>
>
> /Loa
>   mpls wg co-chair
> --
>
>
> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> Senior MPLS Expert
> Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<div><br></div><div>I am not aware of any IPR relate=
d to the draft.<div><br></div><div>Xu, my understanding is that IPR on appr=
oaches that are rejected need not be declared.</div><div><br></div><div>Tha=
nks</div><div>Sri</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:53 PM, Xuxiaohu <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div>
<div>
<div><br>
Hi cochairs,<br>
<br>
I&#39;m aware an IPR related to section 10.1. Single EL at the bottom of th=
e stack. This approach is considered and but is rejected in the current ver=
sion. Hence I wonder whether such IPR should be declared as well.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr style=3D"border-top:dotted 1px">
=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu<br>
M=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692=
</a> <br>
E=EF=BC=9A<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu=
@huawei.com</a><br>
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8<br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<b=
r>
<br>
</div>
<div name=3D"x_AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b=
5c4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>Loa Andersson</div>
<div><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A </b>mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A </b>mpls-chairs&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mp=
ls-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-chairs@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;dra=
ft-ietf-mpls-spring-<wbr>entropy-label&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-mpls=
-spring-entropy-label@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-mpls-<wbr>spri=
ng-entropy-label@ietf.org</a>&gt;</div>
<div><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A </b>[mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-=
spring-<wbr>entropy-label</div>
<div><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A </b>2017-11-16 11:16:49</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
<div class=3D"m_4140791160430070251PlainText"><div><div class=3D"h5">Workin=
g Group,<br>
<br>
We are currently preparing draft draft-ietf-mpls-spring-<wbr>entropy-label =
<br>
for a second wglc.<br>
<br>
Part of this preparation is to do a final IPR poll.<br>
<br>
Note that we opted to repeat the IPR poll even though we did an IPR poll <b=
r>
at first wglc, there are two reasons (1) it is 18 months since the first<br=
>
wglc and, (2) my archive of the responses from the last IPR poll is<br>
(blush) not complete or they are broken.<br>
<br>
This mail is to start the IPR poll.<br>
<br>
Are you aware of any IPR that applies to <br>
draft-ietf-mpls-spring-<wbr>entropy-label?<br>
<br>
If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules<br>
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).<br>
<br>
There are three IPR disclosures against draft-ietf-mpls-spring-<wbr>entropy=
-<br>
label.<br>
<br>
If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to<br>
this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant<br>
IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The<br>
document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been<br>
received from each author and contributor.<br>
<br>
If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or<br>
contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any<br=
>
IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.<br>
<br>
<br>
/Loa<br>
=C2=A0 mpls wg co-chair<br>
-- <br>
<br>
<br>
Loa Andersson=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<wbr>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 email: <a href=3D"mailto:loa@pi.nu" target=3D"_blank">loa@pi.nu</=
a><br>
Senior MPLS Expert<br>
Huawei Technologies (consultant)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 phone: +46 739 81 =
21 64<br>
<br>
<br></div></div><span class=3D"">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
</span></div>
</span></font>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045c4f045a5f06055e1c9471--


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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/06uEtpC7U9uj27i9M8pdJ0uu-kQ>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 01:37:50 +0100
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, mpls@ietf.org,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/KRXp2UmTa6WOuN4tepVxOKIBFuE>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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How the same packet can be received (or generated) by both R1 and R5 from
other domains or sources ?

If network would do that it is likely to get reordered ins't it ? At least
l3+l4 tuple should identify packets without any problem. If this is vpn
packets in transit let's also add vpn label.

Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 00:51, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> Upon reflection, the same question can be asked of R4.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* John E Drake
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:34 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ which SR segment list a packet is
> associated?  E.g., the tuples in a packet from either R1 or R5 will be th=
e
> same.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com <rraszuk@gmail.com>] =
*On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> I think I did but let me restate ...
>
>
>
> Imagine we have a network like below:
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
>
>             |
>
> R5 --- R6
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two
> SR-MPLS paths:
>
>
>
> P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
>
> P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4
>
>
>
> (I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).
>
>
>
> So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... i=
t
> can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those
> with respect to each path they take.
>
>
>
> Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.
>
>
>
> So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
> (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whic=
h
> are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exac=
t
> count of traffic per ingress segment chain.
>
>
>
> In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
> exact the same type of offline data correlation.
>
>
>
> Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add
> labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router=
's
> CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Or even just an extended email.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved withou=
t
> changing anything on the wire?
>
> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal withou=
t
> putting anything new on the wire.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail=
man_listinfo_mpls&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoC=
I&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswc=
GOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-PJ9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&e=3D=
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
> delete the original
> and all copies thereof.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
>
>

--94eb2c1b4fe85e5314055e22f2c9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">How the same packet can be received (or generated) by bot=
h R1 and R5 from other domains or sources ?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">If network would do that it is likely to get reordered ins&#3=
9;t it ? At least l3+l4 tuple should identify packets without any problem. =
If this is vpn packets in transit let&#39;s also add vpn label.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, =
2017 00:51, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.n=
et">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Upon reflection, the same question ca=
n be asked of R4.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> John E Drake
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sp=
ring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ wh=
ich SR segment list a packet is associated?=C2=A0 E.g., the tuples in a pac=
ket from either R1 or R5 will be the same.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a=
> [<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:rraszuk@gm=
ail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sprin=
g &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Hi John,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">I think I did but let me restate ...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Imagine we have a network like below:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R5 --- R6<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have =
two SR-MPLS paths:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ..=
. it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record th=
ose with respect to each path they take.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor =
P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with=
 exact the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add l=
abels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router&#3=
9;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@<wbr>ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the
 wire?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0
 We developed this draft in response to requests from our customers that, a=
s described in our draft, have an interface on a node in the interior of an=
 SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=C2=A0 In this sit=
uation, they need to be able to know
 which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to th=
at interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each of =
its SR segment lists.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from
 that interface in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node
 in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing fr=
om there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are
 not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit=
 nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=A0</span><=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more
 sense. I would ask the following questions:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-3916500457056651104m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMF=
aQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0=
cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIV=
UWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an
 SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function for SR.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge
 and be the early adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM t=
oolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this wo=
rk clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behav=
ior at internal nodes is important
 for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discuss whether the case =
and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to disc=
ussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></=
b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"Z=
H-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microso=
ft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the
 SR domain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=
=80=9D</span> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error
 prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable. <u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=A6</span>=
 Zafar <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-=
bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beha=
lf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path Id=
entifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a C=
ontroller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flo=
w (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special
 purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with t=
he timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u></u><u></u></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">
And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Sc=
alability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counters are maintained as =
long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, =
you may have to turn off/on the collection
 to flush off some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow g=
ranularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself ma=
y be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of count=
ers.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-P=
J9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c1b4fe85e5314055e22f2c9--


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From: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/3VCvAd9N3RrivybNmLpFdI8dB2s>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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I concur with John.<br>
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<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" c=
olor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> John E Drake &lt;jd=
rake@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein; mpls@ietf.org; spring; David Allan I<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w=
/ which SR segment list=20a packet is associated?&nbsp; E.g., the tuples i=
n a packet from either R1 or R5 will be the same.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto=
:rraszuk@gmail.com]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;jdrake@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;; =
mpls@ietf.org; spring &lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;; David Allan I &lt;david.i.a=
llan@ericsson.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Hi John,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">I think I did but let me restate ...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Imagine we have a network like below:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R5 --- R6</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You hav=
e two SR-MPLS paths:&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).&nbsp;</sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">So on each ingress=20we need to map packets to SR paths by some matc=
h ... it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we reco=
rd those with respect to each path they take.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 no=
r P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count =
which are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.&nbs=
p;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes wi=
th exact the same type of offline data correlation.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add=
 labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router=
's CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">R.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Or even just an extend=
ed email.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Yours Irrespectively,<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">John</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vain=
shtein [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D=
"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.or=
g</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spr=
ing@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@er=
icsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">=
jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Do you plan to post a =
draft that explains how this can be achieved without changing anything on =
the wire?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Without such a draft i=
t is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-39266302<=
/a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-54926630=
2</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex=
ander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.or=
g</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spr=
ing@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@er=
icsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance =
measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi John,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">If so I stand by my msgs stating that yo=
u can accomplish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drak=
e&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake=
@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC=201.0pt; paddi=
ng:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0i=
n; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I think you=A1=AFre ri=
ght that =A1=AESR Path Id=A1=AF is the wrong term and that it should be =A1=
=AESR Segment List Id=A1=AF.&nbsp; We developed this draft in response to =
requests
 from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on =
a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given=
 threshold.&nbsp; In this situation, they need to be able to know which in=
gress nodes using which SR segment lists
 are sending traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress n=
odes is sending on each of its SR segment lists.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">This will allow the SR=
 segment lists in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away f=
rom that interface in a controlled manner. &nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Yours Irrespectively,<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpl=
s@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measureme=
nt for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of r=
ecipients */&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Dave,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Two main fundamental points:&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">1.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end=
 (ingress to egress) of a given domain ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is mos=
t beauty of SR that you can add one label to forward packets to different =
node in SPF topology and you make sure that traffic
 will be natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.&n=
bsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions he=
re even apply ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">2.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR =
segments are tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments a=
re not coupled to each other and in fact can be chosen
 dynamically in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PA=
TH at all.&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif">R.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David =
Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank=
">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in;=
 margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">I=A1=AFd rephrase this to be a bit mo=
re solution agnostic=A1=AD.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise=
 measurement points).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=A1=AD..</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points witho=
ut e2e measurement points strikes me as bizarre=A1=AD.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.=
Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sp=
ring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ec=
itele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement=
 for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Hi all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I agree with Sasha and=
 Greg here!</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I think the first thin=
g we need to agree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will mak=
e more sense. I would ask the following questions:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f; color:#1F497D">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; color:#1F497D">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif; color:#1F497D">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f; color:#1F497D">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; color:#1F497D">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif; color:#1F497D">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471mso=
listparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-seri=
f; color:#1F497D">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt; color:#1F497D">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sa=
ns-serif; color:#1F497D">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Best regards,</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt; padding:0in 0in 0=
in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D=
"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.=
org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpl=
s; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi Sasha,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">many thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I'd point to <a href=3D"https://urldefen=
se.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2D=
spring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6=
Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvB=
SMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUx=
KQrlwTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; REQ#13:&nbsp; SR OAM MUST ha=
ve the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Delay or Delay variation using Active (using syn=
thetic</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:black"=
>I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may b=
e performed both e2e and over SPME.</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:black"=
>Regards,</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:black"=
>Greg</span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexand=
er Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Greg,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I concur with your pos=
ition: let=A1=AFs first &nbsp;of all agree that ability to measure traffic=
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require
 OAM function for SR.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrac=
ker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3=
D1&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;=
r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNi=
swcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK=
63Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases ther=
e. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">The only time measurem=
ents are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie=
tf.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3D=
CRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcG=
OWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&=
amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.&nbs=
p; Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not releva=
nt, IMHO, for this discussion.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">I have added the autho=
rs of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-39266302<=
/a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Cell:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"tel:&#43;972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">&#43;972-54926630=
2</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">Email:&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex=
ander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif; color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font=
-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@iet=
f.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_=
blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</=
a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sp=
ring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">=
zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-=
spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Dear All,</p>
<div>
<p=20class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I cannot imagine that operators will a=
gree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performanc=
e and troubleshoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be=
 the early adopters but even they will likely
 request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational n=
eeds. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability t=
o quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient =
network operation. First let's discuss
 whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiao=
hu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@h=
uawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in;=
 margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it =
has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network si=
mplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make =
some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu </p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2</span> Xux=
iaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=A3=BA</=
span><a href=3D"tel:&#43;86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">&#43;86-1391016=
1692</a>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=A3=BA</=
span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hua=
wei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,s=
ans-serif">=B2=FA=C6=B7=D3=EB=BD=E2=BE=F6=B7=BD=B0=B8</span>-<span lang=3D=
"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=CD=F8</span><span lan=
g=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif=
">=C2=E7=D5=BD=C2=D4=D3=EB=D2=B5=CE=F1=B7=A2=D5=B9=B2=BF</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<=
/p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none; border-top:=
solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=CA=D5=BC=FE=
=C8=CB=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=

</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;=
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dr=
aft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpl=
s&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=D6=F7</sp=
an></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=CC=E2=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lan=
g=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pu=
rpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN=
" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt; font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>=

</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I=
 am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie=
tf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&=
amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT=
-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVU=
WOKbHng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, whic=
h states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,sans-serif">=A1=B0</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any to=
pological path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes =
to the SR domain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif=
">=A1=B1</span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">In addition to creating states at transi=
t and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it=
 unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In =
summary, I find the procedure very complex
 and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Regards <span style=3D"font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
=A1=AD</span> Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </s=
pan></b><span style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behal=
f of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde=
-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a=
>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spr=
ing@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traf=
fic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
 color:black">Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; color:b=
lack">thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have th=
ese questions I'd like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Have you thought of using not one speci=
al purpose label for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier&#43;So=
urce SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each case. =
Then the SR Path Identifier would not have
 to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">And ho=
w you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a Contro=
ller may query LSR for all counters or=20counters for the particular flow =
(SR Path Identifier&#43;Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in=
-band
 mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to s=
end counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">And the last, have you=
 considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerati=
ons you've stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of st=
atistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may
 have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I thin=
k that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operato=
rs. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the me=
asurement and trigger release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><br>
__________________________________________________________________________=
_<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform=
ation which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have rece=
ived this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then =
delete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
__________________________________________________________________________=
_</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBX=
eMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&am=
p;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6R=
cA-PJ9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><br>
__________________________________________________________________________=
_<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform=
ation which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have rece=
ived this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then =
delete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
__________________________________________________________________________=
_</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
__________________________________________________________________________=
_<BR>
<BR>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform=
ation which is <BR>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:10:20 +0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmXjFPpdb6M88wWMH6wRM-ekV+t5s3u8-oSS0HCE5nECrA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>,  "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/J7wGHMqVGCcnJRGHhfEGrlP9OD4>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Dear All,
we may have lead ourselves into the woods with Readable Label Depth (RLD)
limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of the header into the fast memory
for processing. I believe that the number of bytes is 128. If that is the
case, then what is the RLD limit? If even existing nodes are capable to *pa=
rse
SR-MPLS stack* to detect special purpose label at the BoS, then there's no
apparent need to insert SR Path Indicator more than once. Or we can use
GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointed.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

> I concur with John.
>
>
> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein; mpls@ietf.org; spring; David Allan I
>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ which SR segment list a packet is
> associated?  E.g., the tuples in a packet from either R1 or R5 will be th=
e
> same.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Rober=
t
> Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> I think I did but let me restate ...
>
>
>
> Imagine we have a network like below:
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
>
>             |
>
> R5 --- R6
>
>
>
>
>
> R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have two
> SR-MPLS paths:
>
>
>
> P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
>
> P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4
>
>
>
> (I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).
>
>
>
> So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ... i=
t
> can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record those
> with respect to each path they take.
>
>
>
> Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.
>
>
>
> So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
> (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whic=
h
> are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exac=
t
> count of traffic per ingress segment chain.
>
>
>
> In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
> exact the same type of offline data correlation.
>
>
>
> Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add
> labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router=
's
> CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Or even just an extended email.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Robert,
>
> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved withou=
t
> changing anything on the wire?
>
> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal withou=
t
> putting anything new on the wire.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> r.
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wro=
ng term and that it
> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft =
in response to
> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is
> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to know
> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on each
> of its SR segment lists.
>
>
>
> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Two main fundamental points:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
>
>
> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
> egress) of a given domain ?
>
>
>
> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from the=
re
> over disjoined path to native path.
>
>
>
> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>
>
>
> 2.
>
>
>
> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupl=
ed
> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>
>
>
> Thx,
>
> R.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise
> measurement points).
>
>
>
> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>
>
>
> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes me
> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>
>
>
> The view from here
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;
> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for
> MPLS-SR is needed?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>
>
>
> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then discus=
s
> the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following questions:
>
>
>
> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Sasha,
>
> many thanks.
>
> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYu=
h63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3=
HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrlw=
TmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
> (regrettably expired):
>
>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>
>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>
>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>
>
>
> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is u=
seful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the documen=
t will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be =
performed both e2e and over SPME.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDwM=
FaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LG=
hEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMFa=
Q&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhE=
WH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D=
QfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rs=
uhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBS=
MRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9h=
akXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
> which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>
> ____________________________________________________________
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> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
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> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
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> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
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> received this
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--94eb2c1cdc00260265055e243d93
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>we may have lead ourselves into the woods wi=
th Readable Label Depth (RLD) limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of th=
e header into the fast memory for processing. I believe that the number of =
bytes is 128. If that is the case, then what is the RLD limit? If even exis=
ting nodes are capable to <u>parse SR-MPLS stack</u> to detect special purp=
ose label at the BoS, then there&#39;s no apparent need to insert=C2=A0<spa=
n style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=
=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D"">SR Path Indicator more than on=
ce. Or we can use GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointed.</font></span></div><div><=
span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font fac=
e=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D""><br></font></span></div><div>=
<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font fa=
ce=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D"">Regards,</font></span></div>=
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" style=3D"">Greg</font></span></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, No=
v 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">






<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
I concur with John.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein</div>
<br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_-4615693144740630833divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"C=
alibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>=
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; spring; David Allan I<div><div class=3D"h5"><br=
>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</div></div></font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ wh=
ich SR segment list a packet is associated?=C2=A0 E.g., the tuples in a pac=
ket from either R1 or R5 will be the same.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> <a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rr=
aszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sp=
ring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Hi John,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">I think I did but let me restate ...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Imagine we have a network like below:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R5 --- R6</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have =
two SR-MPLS paths:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).=C2=A0</span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ..=
. it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record th=
ose with respect to each path they take.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor =
P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with=
 exact the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add l=
abels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router&#3=
9;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a=
>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@<wbr>ecitele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the wire?</span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0 We developed this draft in response to r=
equests
 from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on a=
 node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given t=
hreshold.=C2=A0 In this situation, they need to be able to know which ingre=
ss nodes using which SR segment lists
 are sending traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress no=
des is sending on each of its SR segment lists.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from that interfa=
ce in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF to=
pology and you make sure that traffic
 will be natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled=
 to each other and in fact can be chosen
 dynamically in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PAT=
H at all.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following questions:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110m-7505799169563733429m=
-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2D=
sr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBX=
eMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp=
;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQ=
rHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require
 OAM function for SR.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely
 request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational ne=
eds. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to =
quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient net=
work operation. First let&#39;s discuss
 whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we ca=
n continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu </p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept</=
p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none;border-top:so=
lid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-C=
N" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=
=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.=
<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</sp=
an></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;=
Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span =
lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR d=
omain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D<=
/span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex
 and unscalable. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards <span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">
=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar </p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirs=
ky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">Have you thought of using not one special purpose l=
abel for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases bu=
t request two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path I=
dentifier would not have
 to lose the bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And how you envisi=
on to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may quer=
y LSR for all counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identif=
ier+Source SID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use in-band
 mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to se=
nd counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined =
Collector.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And the last, have you considered ab=
ility to flush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve =
stated that counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is =
enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may
 have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think=
 that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators=
. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measu=
rement and trigger release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
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__________<br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
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and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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I would like to ask a fundamental question here.

Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
MPLS-LDP as well?

If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.

At least some of the methods described here would work for both.

Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, 
that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
understand to be the original goal.

- Stewart

On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The 
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be 
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the 
> SR path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put 
> into the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is 
> enable or not. With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label stack 
> onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress 
> LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
> states on every node.
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) 
> has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE 
> without adding too much complexity).
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
> the forwarding plane…
>
> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy 
> label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and 
> hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe 
> tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That 
> starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Stephane
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Folks,
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
> nodes.
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
> measure per path in transit nodes.
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
> do it with RSVP-TE.
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
> the other way around.
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability to 
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is 
> a require OAM function for SR.
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
> implementation report 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
> discussion.
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters 
> but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient 
> to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly 
> describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at 
> internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First 
> let's discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and 
> valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method 
> to use.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Xiaohu
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>     Hi,
>
>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>     abstract of SR Architecture document
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>     which states:
>
>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>     domain.”
>
>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary,
>     I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Regards … Zafar
>
>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>     *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi Shraddha,
>
>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>         bit for C flag.
>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>         the predefined Collector.
>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is
>         enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn
>         off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think
>         that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful
>         for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to
>         signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains 
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> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and 
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> and all copies thereof.
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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    <br>
    I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
    <br>
    Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
    MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
    <br>
    If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
    general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
    <br>
    At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
    <br>
    Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
    used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which
    I understand to be the original goal. <br>
    <br>
    - Stewart<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2922B1DEF@dggeml510-mbs.china.huawei.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you have
            to pay some cost. The difference is how large the cost is,
            one, two or multiple labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A
            single label (could be local or global) is inserted
            immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
            there is only one label, the path label could be put into
            the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
            measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not affect
            the entropy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                  Michael Gorokhovsky;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali
                  (zali)<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                  labels in
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
              any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress
              to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node
              does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
              operational point of  view, what we do today is that we
              collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the
              label stack onto the routing with an external tool to get
              the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of
              the flows on the links.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
              the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
              (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
              (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without adding
              too much complexity).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
              worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put the
              complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer to
              move the complexity to an external tool that can do
              correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it
              in the forwarding plane…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve
              getting that we do not have this for LDP and we know the
              limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
              sure mandatory to get !
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
              solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with a
              solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
              replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from
              being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was
              looking for potential use case optimizations). So in a
              network running entropy label and this mechanism, a router
              will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another
              special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there
              will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That
              starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Stephane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
              lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
              <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
              <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
              <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
              Gorokhovsky; <a
                href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true">
                draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar
              Ali (zali)<br>
              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                    started and the requirements reported clearly stated
                    that all what we need is the ability to account per
                    path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of the
                    sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                    measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can do
                    it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you
                    can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                    replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                    SR-MPLS never intended to become connection oriented
                    protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I recommend
                    we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                    and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end
                    path accounting in transit nodes then come back here
                    to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
                    around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                      2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                        href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                          let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                          measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                          specific transit node is a require OAM
                          function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">I have looked up the
                          <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                            SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                          find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                        <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">The only time measurements are
                          mentioned is a reference to an
                          <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                            expired implementation report</a> draft
                          discussing delay measurements.  Since delay
                          measurements are in any case based on
                          synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                          (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                          relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                          SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Office:
                          <a href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Cell:     
                          <a href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US">Email:  
                          <a
                            href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                          lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                            href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                          <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28
                          AM<br>
                          <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                          <b>Cc:</b>
                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                          &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                          spring &lt;<a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                          Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:zali@cisco.com" target="_blank"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                          mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                          purpose labels in
                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                operators will agree to deploy network
                                that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor
                                performance and troubleshoot the
                                network. True, some will brave the
                                challenge and be the early adopters but
                                even they will likely request that the
                                OAM toolbox be sufficient to support
                                their operational needs. I see that this
                                work clearly describes the problem and
                                why ability to quantify the flow
                                behavior at internal nodes is important
                                for efficient network operation. First
                                let's discuss whether the case and
                                requirement towards OAM is real and
                                valid. Then we can continue to
                                discussion of what measurement method to
                                use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                  href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <blockquote
                              style="border:none;border-left:solid
                              #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                      lang="EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                      has some values, it's not
                                      cost-efficient from my point of
                                      view. Network simplicity should be
                                      the first priority object. Hence
                                      we would have to make some
                                      compromise.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Best regards,<br>
                                      Xiaohu <br>
                                      <br>
                                      <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  <div class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="text-align:center"
                                    align="center"><span lang="EN-US">
                                      <hr size="2" align="center"
                                        width="100%">
                                    </span></div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">徐小虎</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                      M</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><a
                                        href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                      <br>
                                      E</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><a
                                        href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                    </span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">产品与解决方案</span><span lang="EN-US">-</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                      Gothic&quot;">网</span><span
                                      style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><br>
                                      Products &amp; Solutions-Network
                                      Strategy &amp; Business
                                      Development Dept<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                  #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0cm
                                  0cm" name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                          JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
                                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                          JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">题：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls] [spring]
                                        Special purpose labels in
                                        draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                          JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                        </span></b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                      style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">Hi,
                                            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">This draft
                                            breaks the SR architecture.
                                            I am quoting a snippet from
                                            abstract of SR Architecture
                                            document
                                            <a
                                              href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                            which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">“SR allows to
                                            enforce a flow through any
                                            topological path while
                                            maintaining per-flow state
                                            only at the ingress nodes to
                                            the SR domain.”
                                            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">In addition to
                                            creating states at transit
                                            and egress nodes, the
                                            procedure also affects the
                                            data plane and makes it
                                            unscalable. It also makes
                                            controller job much harder
                                            and error prune. In summary,
                                            I find the procedure very
                                            complex and unscalable.
                                            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                              Zafar
                                              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        <div
                                          style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                          #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                          0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                style="color:black"
                                                lang="EN-US">From:
                                              </span></b><span
                                              style="color:black"
                                              lang="EN-US">spring &lt;<a
href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                              on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                              &lt;<a
                                                href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                              <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                              November 15, 2017 at 11:10
                                              AM<br>
                                              <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                              &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                              "<a
                                                href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                              &lt;<a
                                                href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                              "<a
                                                href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                              &lt;<a
                                                href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                              <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                              Special purpose labels in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                        </div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                              lang="EN-US">
                                              <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                well written and thought
                                                through draft. I have
                                                these questions I'd like
                                                to discuss:</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <ul type="disc">
                                              <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                level1 lfo3">
                                                <span lang="EN-US">Have
                                                  you thought of using
                                                  not one special
                                                  purpose label for both
                                                  SR Path Identifier and
                                                  SR Path
                                                  Identifier+Source SID
                                                  cases but request two
                                                  special purpose
                                                  labels, one for each
                                                  case. Then the SR Path
                                                  Identifier would not
                                                  have to lose the bit
                                                  for C flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                level1 lfo3">
                                                <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                  how you envision to
                                                  collect the counters
                                                  along the path? Of
                                                  course, a Controller
                                                  may query LSR for all
                                                  counters or counters
                                                  for the particular
                                                  flow (SR Path
                                                  Identifier+Source
                                                  SID). But in addition
                                                  I'd propose to use
                                                  in-band mechanism,
                                                  perhaps another
                                                  special purpose label,
                                                  to trigger the LSR to
                                                  send counters of the
                                                  same flow with the
                                                  timestamp out-band to
                                                  the predefined
                                                  Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                level1 lfo3">
                                                <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                  the last, have you
                                                  considered ability to
                                                  flush counters per
                                                  flow. In Scalability
                                                  Considerations you've
                                                  stated that counters
                                                  are maintained as long
                                                  as collection of
                                                  statistics is enabled.
                                                  If that is on the node
                                                  scope, you may have to
                                                  turn off/on the
                                                  collection to flush
                                                  off some old counters.
                                                  I think that finer
                                                  granularity, per flow
                                                  granularity would be
                                                  useful for operators.
                                                  Again, perhaps the
                                                  flow itself may be
                                                  used to signal the end
                                                  of the measurement and
                                                  trigger release of
                                                  counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                            </ul>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
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                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                      lang="EN-US"><br>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:45:59 +0800
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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Cc: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
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Hi MAch,
thank you for the update. Will continue looking for the common solution.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Not all devices have that capability, I would prefer to a solution that
> will require less extra labels.
> Mach
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Greg Mirsky
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Alexander Vainshtein,
> *=E6=8A=84 =E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A*spring,Robert Raszuk,mpls@ietf.org,
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A*2017-11-17 10:10:41
> *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A*Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SP=
ME performance
> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>
> Dear All,
> we may have lead ourselves into the woods with Readable Label Depth (RLD)
> limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of the header into the fast memor=
y
> for processing. I believe that the number of bytes is 128. If that is the
> case, then what is the RLD limit? If even existing nodes are capable to *=
parse
> SR-MPLS stack* to detect special purpose label at the BoS, then there's
> no apparent need to insert SR Path Indicator more than once. Or we can
> use GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointed.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vainshtein <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
>> I concur with John.
>>
>>
>> Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk
>> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein; mpls@ietf.org; spring; David Allan I
>>
>> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ which SR segment list a packet is
>> associated?  E.g., the tuples in a packet from either R1 or R5 will be t=
he
>> same.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Robe=
rt
>> Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM
>> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Cc:* Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;
>> mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think I did but let me restate ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Imagine we have a network like below:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4
>>
>>             |
>>
>> R5 --- R6
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have tw=
o
>> SR-MPLS paths:
>>
>>
>>
>> P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4
>>
>> P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4
>>
>>
>>
>> (I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).
>>
>>
>>
>> So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ...
>> it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record
>> those with respect to each path they take.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.
>>
>>
>>
>> So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor P2
>> (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch
>> are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate in offline tool the exa=
ct
>> count of traffic per ingress segment chain.
>>
>>
>>
>> In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with
>> exact the same type of offline data correlation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add
>> labels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using route=
r's
>> CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote=
:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> Or even just an extended email.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
>> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> Do you plan to post a draft that explains how this can be achieved
>> without changing anything on the wire?
>>
>> Without such a draft it is a bit difficult to compare the solutions:-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>>
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>=
]
>> *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM
>> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
>> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; spring <spring@ietf.org>; David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance
>> measurement for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>>
>> If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomplish your goal
>> without putting anything new on the wire.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> r.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, "John E Drake" <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wr=
ong term and that it
>> should be =E2=80=98SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.  We developed this draft=
 in response to
>> requests from our customers that, as described in our draft, have an
>> interface on a node in the interior of an SR network whose utilization i=
s
>> above a given threshold.  In this situation, they need to be able to kno=
w
>> which ingress nodes using which SR segment lists are sending traffic to
>> that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sending on eac=
h
>> of its SR segment lists.
>>
>>
>>
>> This will allow the SR segment lists in question to be adjusted in order
>> to steer traffic away from that interface in a controlled manner.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours Irrespectively,
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM
>> *To:* David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
>> *Cc:* mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
>> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> /* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave,
>>
>>
>>
>> Two main fundamental points:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to
>> egress) of a given domain ?
>>
>>
>>
>> SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of SR
>> that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF
>> topology and you make sure that traffic will be natively flowing from th=
ere
>> over disjoined path to native path.
>>
>>
>>
>> How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply ?
>>
>>
>>
>> 2.
>>
>>
>>
>> To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are
>> tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coup=
led
>> to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically in transit nodes. In
>> those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> R.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I <
>> david.i.allan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>> I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution agnostic=E2=80=A6.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.       Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with
>> pairwise measurement points).
>>
>>
>>
>> 2.       Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measurement points strikes m=
e
>> as bizarre=E2=80=A6.
>>
>>
>>
>> The view from here
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Mach Chen
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM
>> *To:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Alexander Vainshtein <
>> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
>> spring@ietf.org>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; Michael Gorokhovsky <
>> Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org=
;
>> Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
>> *Subject:* [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement
>> for MPLS-SR is needed?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with Sasha and Greg here!
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the first thing we need to agree on the requirements, then
>> discuss the solution will make more sense. I would ask the following
>> questions:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.       Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>>
>> 2.       Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>>
>> 3.       Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mach
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM
>> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; spring; mpls;
>> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
>> (zali)
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Sasha,
>>
>> many thanks.
>>
>> I'd point to SR OAM Requirements
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkY=
uh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup=
3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DO9dIUxKQrl=
wTmypTpQrHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&e=3D>
>> (regrettably expired):
>>
>>    REQ#13:  SR OAM MUST have the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet
>>
>>             Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synthetic
>>
>>             probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is =
useful at least for as long as we're developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtein <
>> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abil=
ity to
>> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
>> require OAM function for SR.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf=
.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1&d=3DDw=
MFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5L=
GhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q&e=3D>
>> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>>
>> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
>> implementation report
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&d=3DDwMF=
aQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGh=
EWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=
=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&e=3D>
>> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in an=
y
>> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
>> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>>
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
>> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org=
>
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
>> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
>> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even t=
hey
>> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
>> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem an=
d
>> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
>> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case an=
d
>> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
>> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my
>> point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object.
>> Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=
=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=
=E9=83=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>>
>> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com=
>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
>> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>>
>> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labe=
ls in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
>> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_h=
tml_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63r=
suhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvB=
SMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9=
hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&e=3D>,
>> which states:
>>
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=
=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedur=
e
>> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
>> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
>> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
>> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
>> questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request t=
wo
>>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifie=
r
>>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he
>>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose lab=
el, to
>>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is=
 on
>>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush o=
ff
>>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granulari=
ty
>>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be =
used
>>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is
>> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
>> received this
>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and the=
n
>> delete the original
>> and all copies thereof.
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mai=
lman_listinfo_mpls&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzo=
CI&r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-PJ9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&e=
=3D>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is
>> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
>> received this
>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and the=
n
>> delete the original
>> and all copies thereof.
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
>> information which is
>> CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have
>> received this
>> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and the=
n
>> delete the original
>> and all copies thereof.
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> _______________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>
>>
>

--94eb2c1a08789fba30055e24bc5b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi MAch,<div>thank you for the update. Will continue looki=
ng for the common solution.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Gre=
g</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, No=
v 17, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Mach Chen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
ach.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div>

<div>Hi Greg,<br>
<br>
Not all devices have that capability, I would prefer to a solution that wil=
l require less extra labels.</div>
<div></div>
<div>Mach</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border-top:1px solid #b5c=
4df;font-size:14px;line-height:20px;padding:8px">
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=
</b>Greg Mirsky</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=
</b>Alexander Vainshtein,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E6=8A=84=E2=80=83=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A=
</b>spring,Robert Raszuk,<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>mpls@ietf.org</a>,</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</b>2017-=
11-17 10:10:41</div>
<div style=3D"word-break:break-all"><b>=E4=B8=BB=E2=80=83=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A=
</b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement f=
or MPLS-SR is needed?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,
<div>we may have lead ourselves into the woods with Readable Label Depth (R=
LD) limit. AFAIK, NPUs read number of bytes of the header into the fast mem=
ory for processing. I believe that the number of bytes is 128. If that is t=
he case, then what is the RLD limit?
 If even existing nodes are capable to <u>parse SR-MPLS stack</u> to detect=
 special purpose label at the BoS, then there&#39;s no apparent need to ins=
ert=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">SR
 Path Indicator more than once. Or we can use GAL/G-ACh, as John had pointe=
d.</font></span></div>
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>
</font></span></div>
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Regards,</font></span></div>
<div><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,253,245);color:rgb(0,0,0)"><fo=
nt face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Greg</font></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Alexander Vains=
htein <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">A=
lexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
I concur with John.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction:ltr;margin:0;padding:0;font-family:san=
s-serif;font-size:11pt;color:black">
Thump typed by Sasha Vainshtein</div>
<br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833divRplyFwdMsg" dir=
=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font=
-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.=
net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 1:33:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; spring; David Allan I
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</div>
</div>
</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761h5">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">How do R6, R2, and R3 determine w/ wh=
ich SR segment list a packet is associated?=C2=A0 E.g., the tuples in a pac=
ket from either R1 or R5 will be the same.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gmail.com</a=
> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rraszuk@gm=
ail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@=
ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt=
;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>; sprin=
g &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Hi John,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">I think I did but let me restate ...</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Imagine we have a network like below:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 --- R2 --- R3 --- R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R5 --- R6</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R1 and R5 are ingress of SR-MPLS domain and R4 is an egress. You have =
two SR-MPLS paths:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P1 - R1-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">P2 - R5-R6-R2-R3-R4</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">(I know those are SPTs but this is just for illustration).=C2=A0</span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So on each ingress we need to map packets to SR paths by some match ..=
. it can be based on the dst IP, src/dst IP, port # etc ... So we record th=
ose with respect to each path they take.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Now we also record on R4 the same set of tuples.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">So now we have all counters needed without asking R4 to report P1 nor =
P2 (nor need to carry them in the packets) as based on the tuples count whi=
ch are used on ingress for mapping we can correlate
 in offline tool the exact count of traffic per ingress segment chain.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">In fact we can also derive per path stats even from transit nodes with=
 exact the same type of offline data correlation.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Does anyone see any issue ? Is going offline so bad that we must add l=
abels and modify all hardware to be able to have comfort of using router&#3=
9;s CLI to get this data on the routers itself ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 1:39 PM, John E Drake &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a=
>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Or even just an extended email.</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Alexander Vainshtein [mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@e<wbr>citele.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D=
"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;;
 John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Do you plan to post a draft that expl=
ains how this can be achieved without changing anything on the wire?</span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Without such a draft it is a bit diff=
icult to compare the solutions:-)</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or<wbr>g<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sprin=
g@ietf.org</a>&gt;; David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@erics=
son.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance m=
easurement for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi John,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If so I stand by my msgs stating that you can accomp=
lish your goal without putting anything new on the wire.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">r.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 16, 2017 19:43, &quot;John E Drake&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Robert,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think you=E2=80=99re right that =E2=
=80=98SR Path Id=E2=80=99 is the wrong term and that it should be =E2=80=98=
SR Segment List Id=E2=80=99.=C2=A0 We developed this draft in response to r=
equests from our
 customers that, as described in our draft, have an interface on a node in =
the interior of an SR network whose utilization is above a given threshold.=
=C2=A0 In this situation, they need to be able to know which ingress nodes =
using which SR segment lists are sending
 traffic to that interface and how much traffic each ingress nodes is sendi=
ng on each of its SR segment lists.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">This will allow the SR segment lists =
in question to be adjusted in order to steer traffic away from that interfa=
ce in a controlled manner. =C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Allan I &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" =
target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measuremen=
t for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">/* resending and I got suppressed due to exceeding # of recipients */=
=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Dave,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Two main fundamental points:=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">1.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Is there any assumption that SR-MPLS paths are end to end (ingress to =
egress) of a given domain ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">SR does not require end to end paths. In fact this is most beauty of S=
R that you can add one label to forward packets to different node in SPF to=
pology and you make sure that traffic will be
 natively flowing from there over disjoined path to native path.=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">How in those deployment cases all of those discussions here even apply=
 ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">2.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">To make a construct of a SR PATH you must assume that SR segments are =
tightly coupled. And this is very bad as by design segments are not coupled=
 to each other and in fact can be chosen dynamically
 in transit nodes. In those cases there is no concept of SR PATH at all.=C2=
=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Thx,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">R.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:56 AM, David Allan I &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.all=
an@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d rephrase this to be a bit more solution=
 agnostic=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Is E2E PM required. (and this can only be achieved with pairwise me=
asurement points).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif">Are transit measurement points required as well=E2=80=A6..</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">BTW transmit measurement points without e2e measure=
ment points strikes me as bizarre=E2=80=A6.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">The view from here</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Dave</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> spring [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.or<wbr>g<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mach Chen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Alexander Vainshtein &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Va=
inshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;; Michael Gorokhovsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecit=
ele.com" target=3D"_blank">Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [spring] Whether both E2E and SPME performance measurement =
for MPLS-SR is needed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi all,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I agree with Sasha and Greg here!</sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I think the first thing we need to ag=
ree on the requirements, then discuss the solution will make more sense. I =
would ask the following questions:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">1.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only E2E PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">2.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Is only SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8256473535066497761m_-4615693144740630833m671809827882275110=
m-7505799169563733429m-84672208534897471msolistparagraph" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.25in">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#1f497d">3.</span><span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:#1f497d">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1f497d">Are both E2E and SPME PM needed for MPLS-SR?</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Mach</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 5:15 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; spring;=
 mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Sasha,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">many thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d point to <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proof=
point.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2D=
sr-2Doam-2Drequirement-2D03&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBX=
eMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp=
;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DO9dIUxKQrlwTmypTpQ=
rHJI2ctXc1U5kWcUB1yEsqPsA&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Requirements</a> (regrettably expired):</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 REQ#13:=C2=A0 SR OAM MUST hav=
e the ability to measure Packet loss, Packet</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Delay or Delay variation using Active (using synth=
etic</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probe) and Passive (using data stream) mode.</span=
></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">I=
 think that our discussion indicates that OAM requirements document is usef=
ul at least for as long as we&#39;re developing OAM toolset. And the docume=
nt will benefit from clarification to reflect our discussion that PM may be=
 performed both e2e and over SPME.</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">R=
egards,</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">G=
reg</span></pre>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Alexander Vainshtei=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I concur with your position: let=E2=
=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to measure traffic carried by=
 an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM function
 for SR.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have looked up the
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatrack=
er.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Doam-2Dusecase_-3Finclude-5Ftext-3D1=
&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=
=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNisw=
cGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DZBzVsWlwT1TW-rc8hRIu2oXOGTGFWyN8oEpwHOiK63Q=
&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The only time measurements are mentio=
ned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dleipnitz-2Dspring-2Dpms-2Dimplementation-2Dreport-2D00&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DC=
RB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOW=
r8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3DQfQBqcrZK7iG73fzIFm7Pt92DgaVOiHkhujytZ0q_zo&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I have added the authors of the SR OA=
M Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear All,</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy=
 network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troublesh=
oot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopt=
ers but even they will likely request
 that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I s=
ee that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify=
 the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network ope=
ration. First let&#39;s discuss whether
 the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can contin=
ue to discussion of what measurement method to use.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Concur. Although it h=
as some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my point of view. Network =
simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we would have to make=
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu </p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</sp=
an> Xuxiaohu<br>
M<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</a=
>
<br>
E<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A=
</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@hu=
awei.com</a><br>
<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</=
span>-<span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=
=BD=91</span><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Microsoft Jhen=
gHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=
=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept</=
p>
</div>
<div name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image" style=3D"border:none;border-top:so=
lid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-C=
N" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=
=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<w=
br>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for-sr-paths@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp<w=
br>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</sp=
an></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;=
Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-serif">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span =
lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spring] Special pur=
pose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft JhengHei&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:10</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting =
a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.iet=
f.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dspring-2Dsegment-2Drouting-2D13&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5=
LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKb=
Hng&amp;s=3DxKKBtL1_7pyQ6k9hakXPemUtJJc9c8wKgw2FgwYttIg&amp;e=3D" target=3D=
"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segment-routin<wbr>g-13<=
/a>, which states:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-=
serif">=E2=80=9C</span>SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological =
path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR d=
omain.<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=9D<=
/span>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In addition to creating states at transit and egress=
 nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. =
It also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I fin=
d the procedure very complex and unscalable.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards <span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">=E2=80=A6</span> Zafar
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirs=
ky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black"=
>Shraddha,</span>
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black">thank y=
ou for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions =
I&#39;d like to discuss:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">Have you thought of using not one special purpose l=
abel for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases bu=
t request two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path I=
dentifier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And how you envision to collec=
t the counters along the path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for al=
l counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source S=
ID). But in addition I&#39;d propose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters=
 of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<=
/li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">And the last, have you considered ability to fl=
ush counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that=
 counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If=
 that is on the node scope, you may have to
 turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that fi=
ner granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again,=
 perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement a=
nd trigger release of counters.</li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_mpls&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeM=
K-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DCRB2tJiQePk0cT-h5LGhEWH-s_xXXup3HzvBSMRj5VE&amp;m=
=3DNMHWJAxk35ikFsOqNiswcGOWr8RLMKDjZIVUWOKbHng&amp;s=3D08NHkgGh3s2IUy6RcA-P=
J9m6Un8j-FQd_zZABnvAz9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear=3D"both">
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is
<br>
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this
<br>
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original
<br>
and all copies thereof.<br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1a08789fba30055e24bc5b--


From nobody Thu Nov 16 18:48:59 2017
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Subject: [mpls] Fwd: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Date: 	Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000
From: 	Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
To: 	Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, stephane.litkowski@orange.com 
<stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, 
Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: 	mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils 
<cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael 
Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, 
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
<draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>




I would like to ask a fundamental question here.

Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
MPLS-LDP as well?

If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.

At least some of the methods described here would work for both.

Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, 
that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
understand to be the original goal.

- Stewart

On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The 
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be 
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the 
> SR path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put 
> into the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is 
> enable or not. With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label stack 
> onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress 
> LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
> states on every node.
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) 
> has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE 
> without adding too much complexity).
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
> the forwarding plane…
>
> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy 
> label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and 
> hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe 
> tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That 
> starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Stephane
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Folks,
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
> nodes.
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
> measure per path in transit nodes.
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
> do it with RSVP-TE.
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
> the other way around.
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability to 
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is 
> a require OAM function for SR.
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
> implementation report 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
> discussion.
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters 
> but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient 
> to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly 
> describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at 
> internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First 
> let's discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and 
> valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method 
> to use.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Xiaohu
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>     Hi,
>
>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>     abstract of SR Architecture document
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>     which states:
>
>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>     domain.”
>
>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary,
>     I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Regards … Zafar
>
>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>     *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi Shraddha,
>
>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>         bit for C flag.
>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>         the predefined Collector.
>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is
>         enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn
>         off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think
>         that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful
>         for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to
>         signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>
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    <p>Resenting with fewer names recipients<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-forward-container">S<br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0"
        cellpadding="0" border="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td>Stewart Bryant <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td>Mach Chen <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com">&lt;mach.chen@huawei.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">&lt;stephane.litkowski@orange.com&gt;</a>, Robert Raszuk
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:robert@raszuk.net">&lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;</a>, Alexander Vainshtein
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
            <td>mpls <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org">&lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;</a>, spring
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:spring@ietf.org">&lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Clarence Filsfils
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com">&lt;cfilsfil@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org">&lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
              Michael Gorokhovsky
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com">&lt;Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">&lt;draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Zafar Ali
              (zali) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:zali@cisco.com">&lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <br>
      I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
      <br>
      Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
      MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
      <br>
      If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
      general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
      <br>
      At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
      <br>
      Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
      used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
      which I understand to be the original goal. <br>
      <br>
      - Stewart<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you
              have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
              cost is, one, two or multiple labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much easier.
              A single label (could be local or global) is inserted
              immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
              there is only one label, the path label could be put into
              the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
              measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
              affect the entropy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
            1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                    Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                    Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                    labels in
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
                any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                transit node does not have the knowledge of the source.
                From an operational point of  view, what we do today is
                that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
                project the label stack onto the routing with an
                external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic
                including the mapping of the flows on the links.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
                the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
                (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
                adding too much complexity).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
                worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put
                the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer
                to move the complexity to an external tool that can do
                correlations or whatever operations rather than getting
                it in the forwarding plane…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to
                solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
                sure mandatory to get ! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with
                a solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
                replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but
                I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
                in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a
                router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
                another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow
                there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…).
                That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding
                plane. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Stephane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                  href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                Gorokhovsky; <a
                  href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">
                  draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                labels in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                      started and the requirements reported clearly
                      stated that all what we need is the ability to
                      account per path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of the
                      sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                      measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can
                      do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                      you can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                      replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                      SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                      oriented protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I recommend
                      we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                      and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to
                      end path accounting in transit nodes then come
                      back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the
                      other way around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                        2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                            let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                            measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                            specific transit node is a require OAM
                            function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have looked up the <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"> SR
                              OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                            find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                          <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">The only time measurements are
                            mentioned is a reference to an <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                              expired implementation report</a> draft
                            discussing delay measurements.  Since delay
                            measurements are in any case based on
                            synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                            (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                            relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                            SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Office: <a
                              href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Cell:      <a
                              href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Email:   <a
                              href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                            4:28 AM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Cc:</b>
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                            &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            spring &lt;<a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                            mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                            purpose labels in
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                  operators will agree to deploy network
                                  that lacks critical OAM tools to
                                  monitor performance and troubleshoot
                                  the network. True, some will brave the
                                  challenge and be the early adopters
                                  but even they will likely request that
                                  the OAM toolbox be sufficient to
                                  support their operational needs. I see
                                  that this work clearly describes the
                                  problem and why ability to quantify
                                  the flow behavior at internal nodes is
                                  important for efficient network
                                  operation. First let's discuss whether
                                  the case and requirement towards OAM
                                  is real and valid. Then we can
                                  continue to discussion of what
                                  measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                  10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <blockquote
                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                        lang="EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                        has some values, it's not
                                        cost-efficient from my point of
                                        view. Network simplicity should
                                        be the first priority object.
                                        Hence we would have to make some
                                        compromise.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Best regards,<br>
                                        Xiaohu <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    <div class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="text-align:center"
                                      align="center"><span lang="EN-US">
                                        <hr size="2" align="center"
                                          width="100%"> </span></div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">徐小虎</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                        M</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><a
                                          href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                        <br>
                                        E</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><a
                                          href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                          target="_blank"
                                          moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                      </span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">产品与解决方案</span><span lang="EN-US">-</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                        Gothic&quot;">网</span><span
                                        style="font-family:&quot;Microsoft
JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><br>
                                        Products &amp; Solutions-Network
                                        Strategy &amp; Business
                                        Development Dept<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div
                                    style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                    #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0cm
                                    0cm"
                                    name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">题：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                          [spring] Special purpose
                                          labels in
                                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                          02:24:10</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Hi, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">This draft
                                              breaks the SR
                                              architecture. I am quoting
                                              a snippet from abstract of
                                              SR Architecture document <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                              which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">“SR allows to
                                              enforce a flow through any
                                              topological path while
                                              maintaining per-flow state
                                              only at the ingress nodes
                                              to the SR domain.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">In addition
                                              to creating states at
                                              transit and egress nodes,
                                              the procedure also affects
                                              the data plane and makes
                                              it unscalable. It also
                                              makes controller job much
                                              harder and error prune. In
                                              summary, I find the
                                              procedure very complex and
                                              unscalable. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                                Zafar <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div
                                            style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                            #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                            0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                  style="color:black"
                                                  lang="EN-US">From: </span></b><span
                                                style="color:black"
                                                lang="EN-US">spring &lt;<a
href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                November 15, 2017 at
                                                11:10 AM<br>
                                                <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                Special purpose labels
                                                in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                  well written and
                                                  thought through draft.
                                                  I have these questions
                                                  I'd like to discuss:</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <ul type="disc">
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Have
                                                    you thought of using
                                                    not one special
                                                    purpose label for
                                                    both SR Path
                                                    Identifier and SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID cases but
                                                    request two special
                                                    purpose labels, one
                                                    for each case. Then
                                                    the SR Path
                                                    Identifier would not
                                                    have to lose the bit
                                                    for C flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And how
                                                    you envision to
                                                    collect the counters
                                                    along the path? Of
                                                    course, a Controller
                                                    may query LSR for
                                                    all counters or
                                                    counters for the
                                                    particular flow (SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID). But in
                                                    addition I'd propose
                                                    to use in-band
                                                    mechanism, perhaps
                                                    another special
                                                    purpose label, to
                                                    trigger the LSR to
                                                    send counters of the
                                                    same flow with the
                                                    timestamp out-band
                                                    to the predefined
                                                    Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And the
                                                    last, have you
                                                    considered ability
                                                    to flush counters
                                                    per flow. In
                                                    Scalability
                                                    Considerations
                                                    you've stated that
                                                    counters are
                                                    maintained as long
                                                    as collection of
                                                    statistics is
                                                    enabled. If that is
                                                    on the node scope,
                                                    you may have to turn
                                                    off/on the
                                                    collection to flush
                                                    off some old
                                                    counters. I think
                                                    that finer
                                                    granularity, per
                                                    flow granularity
                                                    would be useful for
                                                    operators. Again,
                                                    perhaps the flow
                                                    itself may be used
                                                    to signal the end of
                                                    the measurement and
                                                    trigger release of
                                                    counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              </ul>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
                          <br>
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___________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                        lang="EN-US"><br>
                        _______________________________________________<br>
                        mpls mailing list<br>
                        <a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
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                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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            <pre><span lang="EN-US">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          </div>
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        <br>
        <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
        <br>
        <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>
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--------------283F62D2CADC21A0E15E3DDC--


From nobody Thu Nov 16 18:50:17 2017
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, rjs@rob.sh, "Siva Sivabalan (msiva)" <msiva@cisco.com>, gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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Siva, Rob and Gunther,

Friendly reminder, I miss your responses to this IPR poll.

/Loa

On 2017-11-16 11:15, Loa Andersson wrote:
> Working Group,
> 
> We are currently preparing draft draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label 
> for a second wglc.
> 
> Part of this preparation is to do a final IPR poll.
> 
> Note that we opted to repeat the IPR poll even though we did an IPR poll 
> at first wglc, there are two reasons (1) it is 18 months since the first
> wglc and, (2) my archive of the responses from the last IPR poll is
> (blush) not complete or they are broken.
> 
> This mail is to start the IPR poll.
> 
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to 
> draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label?
> 
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
> (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
> 
> There are three IPR disclosures against draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-
> label.
> 
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
> this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant
> IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The
> document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been
> received from each author and contributor.
> 
> If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
> contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
> IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
> 
> 
> /Loa
>   mpls wg co-chair

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:58:07 +0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <BF74F59A-1D47-4F17-B258-4497D4C3D863@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D106@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <EF064624-CF4D-4B88-823E-DAB9957B9336@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi,

=20

Some comments after reading the thread:

=20

/*rtgwg-chair hat on

I wonder, who are the mighty =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D who are better than unworthy =E2=80=9Cthem=E2=
=80=9D? =C2=A0I find the wording rather unfortunate=20

*/

=20

=20

The problem statement =E2=80=93 Uniquely identify at any given node: (SID stack, =
*) or (*, source) or (SID stack, source)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data plane =E2=80=93 metadata encoding (label(s), VNID, no=
ne, etc)

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Control plane =E2=80=93 capability adv, context adv, poten=
tially divided over flooding facility (IGP/BGP) and an NBI (BGP-LS/PCEP)

=20

If we agree, there=E2=80=99s a problem to solve, we review every proposal made, p=
ros/cons analysis.

If there=E2=80=99s none =E2=80=93 we move on.

=20

Thoughts?

=20

Cheers,

Jeff =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

From: mpls <mpls-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@ci=
sco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 16:25
To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <m=
pls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Folks,=20

=20

I also agree that it=E2=80=99s not a question on requirement but about a procedur=
e (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR Arc=
hitecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement. We can solve this=
 problem without breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a draft befo=
re the next IETF.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.or=
g>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-t=
raffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=20

I fully agree with you that OAM tools are important.=20

I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft would enconter the s=
ame terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR entropy label usage=
 due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations.=20

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20




=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Xuxiaohu<xuxiaohu@huawei.com>

=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)<zali@cisco.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accou=
nting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.o=
rg>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 10:27:55

=20

Dear All,=20

I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks cri=
tical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network. True, s=
ome will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will li=
kely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational=
 needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability t=
o quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient ne=
twork operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement toward=
s OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurem=
ent method to use.

=20

Regards,

Greg

=20

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:

Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point =
of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we wo=
uld have to make some compromise.

Best regards,
Xiaohu=20




=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8
Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10

=20

Hi,=20

=20

This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract=
 of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-s=
egment-routing-13, which states:

=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while maintaini=
ng per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=20

=20

In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure a=
lso affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controller=
 job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very comp=
lex and unscalable.=20

=20

Thanks

=20

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20

=20

=20

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsk=
y@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-he=
gde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@=
ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths

=20

Hi Shraddha,=20

thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these que=
stions I'd like to discuss:

=C2=B7  Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Pat=
h Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special=
 purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not ha=
ve to lose the bit for C flag.

=C2=B7  And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course,=
 a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular =
flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-=
band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to=
 send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefine=
d Collector.

=C2=B7  And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. I=
n Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as l=
ong as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, yo=
u may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I t=
hink that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operat=
ors. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the mea=
surement and trigger release of counters.

Regards,

Greg

=20

_______________________________________________ mpls mailing list mpls@ietf=
.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Hi,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Some=
 comments after reading the thread:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>/*rtgwg-chair hat on<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>I wonder, who are the might=
y =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D who are better than unworthy =E2=80=9Cthem=E2=80=9D? =C2=A0I find the wording rat=
her unfortunate <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:14.0pt'>*/<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:14.0pt'>The problem statement =E2=80=93 Uniquely identify at any given node:=
 (SID stack, *) or (*, source) or (SID stack, source)<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Data=
 plane =E2=80=93 metadata encoding (label(s), VNID, none, etc)<o:p></o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 C=
ontrol plane =E2=80=93 capability adv, context adv, potentially divided over flood=
ing facility (IGP/BGP) and an NBI (BGP-LS/PCEP)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>If we agree, there=E2=80=99s a proble=
m to solve, we review every proposal made, pros/cons analysis.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>If there=E2=80=99s none =
=E2=80=93 we move on.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:14.0pt'>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'=
font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Jeff =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:n=
one;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>=
From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>mpls &lt;mpls-bo=
unces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of &quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.=
com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 16:25<br><b>To: </b>X=
uxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei.com&gt;, Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&g=
t;<br><b>Cc: </b>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;draf=
t-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&gt;, spring &lt;spri=
ng@ietf.org&gt;, mpls &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [mpls] [s=
pring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-s=
r-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5i=
n'>Hi Folks, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I also agree th=
at it=E2=80=99s not a question on requirement but about a procedure (in draft-hegd=
e-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR Architecture, highl=
y unscalable and complicated to implement. We can solve this problem without=
 breaking the SR architecture. We plan to write a draft before the next IETF=
. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font=
-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Time=
s New Roman",serif'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-t=
op:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span=
></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Xuxiaohu &lt;xuxiaohu@huawei=
.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 9:54 PM<br><b>To: <=
/b>Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;Zafar Ali (=
zali)&quot; &lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths &lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org&g=
t;, &quot;mpls@ietf.org&quot; &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;, spring &lt;spring@ietf.=
org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in dra=
ft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin=
-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>I fully agree with you that OAM tools are i=
mportant. <br><br>I just felt that the approach as proposed in the draft wou=
ld enconter the same terrible issues as those associated with the MPLS-SR en=
tropy label usage due to RLD and MSD hardware limitations. <br><br>Best rega=
rds,<br>Xiaohu <br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=
=3Dcenter style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" a=
lign=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS =
Mincho",serif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mi=
ncho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692">+86-13910161692</a> <br=
>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailto:xuxi=
aohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'=
>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=
=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=
=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>Product=
s &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div><p class=3DMsoNormal sty=
le=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;fo=
nt-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> =
</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</s=
pan></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.5pt'>Xuxiaohu&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com">xuxiaohu@huawei.co=
m</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"M=
S Mincho",serif'>=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </sp=
an></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (zali)&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:za=
li@cisco.com">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-f=
or-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-=
paths@ietf.org">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0p=
t'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span=
></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><=
span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>R=
e: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acco=
unting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font=
-family:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </spa=
n></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 10:27:55</span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><span=
 style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Dear All, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I cannot imagine that operators will agr=
ee to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance an=
d troubleshoot the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the e=
arly adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be suff=
icient to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly desc=
ribes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal =
nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whet=
her the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can cont=
inue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05=
 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;b=
order-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;m=
argin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;m=
argin-left:.5in'>Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficien=
t from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority obj=
ect. Hence we would have to make some compromise.<br><br>Best regards,<br>Xi=
aohu <br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcente=
r></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",se=
rif'>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span> Xuxiaohu<br>M<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",seri=
f'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910161692</=
a> <br>E<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span><a href=3D"mailt=
o:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br><span styl=
e=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span>-<span style=3D'font-family=
:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=BD=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:SimSun'>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98</span>=
<span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E</span><span style=3D'font-f=
amily:SimSun'>=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91</span><span style=3D'font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E5=B1=
=95=E9=83=A8</span><br>Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Deve=
lopment Dept<o:p></o:p></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B=
5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0in 0in 0in' name=3DAnyOffice-Background-Image><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Zafar Ali (z=
ali)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.=
5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Min=
cho",serif'>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span=
></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spri=
ng-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-tr=
affic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sp=
ring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=E4=B8=BB</span></b>=
<b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:SimSun'>=E9=A2=98</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"MS Mincho",serif'>=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Re: [m=
pls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mar=
gin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-fami=
ly:SimSun'>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'> </span></b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>2017-11-16 02:24:10</span><o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;line-height:15.0pt'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;=
margin-left:.5in'>Hi, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-to=
p-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:aut=
o;margin-left:.5in'>This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a sn=
ippet from abstract of SR Architecture document <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" target=3D"_blank">https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>, which states:<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topol=
ogical path while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to th=
e SR domain.=E2=80=9D <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;marg=
in-left:.5in'>In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, th=
e procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also mak=
es controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the proced=
ure very complex and unscalable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ms=
o-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:a=
uto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black=
'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>spring &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, N=
ovember 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br><b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde=
-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegd=
e-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &q=
uot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left=
:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Hi&nbsp;<span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Shraddha,</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margi=
n-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>thank you for very w=
ell written and thought through draft. I have these questions I'd like to di=
scuss:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt=
 "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></sp=
an>Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path =
Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special p=
urpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have=
 to lose the bit for C flag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.=
25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7=
.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR>=
</span>And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of cours=
e, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particula=
r flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use i=
n-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR =
to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefi=
ned Collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:=
l1 level1 lfo3'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>=C2=B7<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times Ne=
w Roman"'>&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><span dir=3DLTR></span>And the=
 last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In Scalabilit=
y Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long as colle=
ction of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have t=
o turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that fi=
ner granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, =
perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and=
 trigger release of counters.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Regards,=
<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>Greg<o:p></o:p></p></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal s=
tyle=3D'margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________ mpls=
 mailing list mpls@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls <o:p>=
</o:p></p></div></body></html>

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Subject: Re: [mpls] Fwd: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Stewart,

Is there any real vendor support and real production deployment of rfc5586 =
?

Is there any data on the max label depth such channel may be hidden under
yet still visible to forwarding hardware ?

Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:

> Resenting with fewer names recipients
> S
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000
> From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com=
>
> To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com> <mach.chen@huawei.com>,
> stephane.litkowski@orange.com <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
> <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.
> com> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
> CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org> <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
> <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>
> <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael
> Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
> <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
> <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
> <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Zafar Ali (zali)
> <zali@cisco.com> <zali@cisco.com>
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general
> MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used,
> that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understa=
nd
> to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
>
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
> path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the
> stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or no=
t.
> With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSP=
s,
> so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
> operational point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow
> statistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
> with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including
> the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
>
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states
> on every node.
>
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes,
> where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rath=
er
> prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlation=
s
> or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6
>
> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have
> this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what
> Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
> cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being
> sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential
> use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this
> mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
> another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a
> third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big =
overhead
> for the forwarding plane.
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths;
> Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
> what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>
>
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
> per path in transit nodes.
>
>
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do
> it with RSVP-TE.
>
>
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
>
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
> basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
> nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other w=
ay
> around.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>
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<div dir=3D"auto">Stewart,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is =
there any real vendor support and real production deployment of rfc5586 ?</=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is there any data on the =
max label depth such channel may be hidden under yet still visible to forwa=
rding hardware ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, &quot;Stewart Bryant&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20

   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Resenting with fewer names recipients<br>
    </p>
    <div class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-forward-container">S<br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-email-headers-table" cellspa=
cing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td>Stewart Bryant <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-lin=
k-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;=
stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td>Mach Chen <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc=
2396E" href=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;mach.chen=
@huawei.com&gt;</a>,
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">stephane.litk=
owski@orange.com</a>
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;stephane.li=
tkowski@orange.<wbr>com&gt;</a>, Robert Raszuk
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">&lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;</=
a>, Alexander Vainshtein
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;Alexande=
r.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap valign=3D"BASELINE" align=3D"RIGHT">CC: </th>
            <td>mpls <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E=
" href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;</a>=
, spring
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;</a>, =
Clarence Filsfils
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;cfilsfil@cisco.com&gt;=
</a>,
              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">&lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.<wbr>org&gt;</a>,
              Michael Gorokhovsky
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;Michael.G=
orokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a>,
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draf=
t-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>
              <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">&lt;dr=
aft-ietf-spring-oam-<wbr>usecase@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Zafar Ali
              (zali) <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E=
" href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">&lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;</=
a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
     =20
      <br>
      I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
      <br>
      Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
      MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
      <br>
      If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
      general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
      <br>
      At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
      <br>
      Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
      used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
      which I understand to be the original goal. <br>
      <br>
      - Stewart<br>
      <br>
      <div class=3D"m_8539926704528025668moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:=
46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
       =20
       =20
       =20
       =20
        <div class=3D"m_8539926704528025668WordSection1">
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Hi Stephane,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
If you want to do transit measurement, you
              have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
              cost is, one, two or multiple labels.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
For E2E measurement, it could be much easier.
              A single label (could be local or global) is inserted
              immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
              there is only one label, the path label could be put into
              the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
              measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
              affect the entropy.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Best regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
Mach<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
          <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padd=
ing:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">From:<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> mpls [<a class=3D"m_85399267045280256=
68moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b><a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668mo=
z-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
;
                    Michael Gorokhovsky; <a class=3D"m_8539926704528025668m=
oz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                    Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                    labels in
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
                any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                transit node does not have the knowledge of the source.
                From an operational point of=C2=A0 view, what we do today i=
s
                that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
                project the label stack onto the routing with an
                external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic
                including the mapping of the flows on the links.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
                the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
                (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
                adding too much complexity).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
                worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put
                the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer
                to move the complexity to an external tool that can do
                correlations or whatever operations rather than getting
                it in the forwarding plane=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to
                solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
                sure mandatory to get ! <u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with
                a solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
                replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but
                I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
                in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a
                router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
                another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow
                there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=
=A6).
                That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding
                plane. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Brgds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
">Stephane<u></u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecas=
e@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
                  draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths;
                Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                labels in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread
                      started and the requirements reported clearly
                      stated that all what we need is the ability to
                      account per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of th=
e
                      sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                      measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can
                      do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                      you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                      replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                      SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                      oriented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommen=
d
                      we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                      and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to
                      end path accounting in transit nodes then come
                      back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the
                      other way around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
                </div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16,
                        2017 16:12, &quot;Alexander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexand=
er.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">I concur with your position:
                            let=E2=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that abi=
lity to
                            measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                            specific transit node is a require OAM
                            function for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">I have looked up the <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank"> SR
                              OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                            find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                          <span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">The only time measurements are
                            mentioned is a reference to an <a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00" =
target=3D"_blank">
                              expired implementation report</a> draft
                            discussing delay measurements.=C2=A0 Since dela=
y
                            measurements are in any case based on
                            synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                            (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                            relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                            SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Regards,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Office: <a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+=
972-39266302</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-=
926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@eci=
tele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibr=
i&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                            4:28 AM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxia=
ohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Cc:</b>
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths
                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-tr=
affic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;
                            spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cis=
co.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                            mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                            purpose labels in
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dea=
r All,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=
 cannot imagine that
                                  operators will agree to deploy network
                                  that lacks critical OAM tools to
                                  monitor performance and troubleshoot
                                  the network. True, some will brave the
                                  challenge and be the early adopters
                                  but even they will likely request that
                                  the OAM toolbox be sufficient to
                                  support their operational needs. I see
                                  that this work clearly describes the
                                  problem and why ability to quantify
                                  the flow behavior at internal nodes is
                                  important for efficient network
                                  operation. First let&#39;s discuss whethe=
r
                                  the case and requirement towards OAM
                                  is real and valid. Then we can
                                  continue to discussion of what
                                  measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">R=
egards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">G=
reg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">O=
n Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                  10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                              <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:=
solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:=
5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                        has some values, it&#39;s not
                                        cost-efficient from my point of
                                        view. Network simplicity should
                                        be the first priority object.
                                        Hence we would have to make some
                                        compromise.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Best regards,<br>
                                        Xiaohu <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    <div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-=
align:center" align=3D"center"><span lang=3D"EN-US">
                                        <hr size=3D"2" align=3D"center" wid=
th=3D"100%"> </span></div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
bottom:12.0pt"><span>=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                        M</span><span>=EF=BC=9A</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-13910=
161692</a>
                                        <br>
                                        E</span><span>=EF=BC=9A</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                      </span><span>=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=
=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span>=
<span>=E7=BD=91</span><span>=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=
=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
                                        Products &amp; Solutions-Network
                                        Strategy &amp; Business
                                        Development Dept<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:soli=
d #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Ima=
ge">
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
" lang=3D"EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-=
<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Goth=
ic&quot;">=E4=B8=BB</span></b><b><span>=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                          [spring] Special purpose
                                          labels in
                                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>a=
ccounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-=
height:15.0pt"><b><span>=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" lang=3D=
"EN-US">2017-11-16
                                          02:24:10</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-he=
ight:15.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">Hi, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">This draft
                                              breaks the SR
                                              architecture. I am quoting
                                              a snippet from abstract of
                                              SR Architecture document <a h=
ref=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>,
                                              which states:<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to
                                              enforce a flow through any
                                              topological path while
                                              maintaining per-flow state
                                              only at the ingress nodes
                                              to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D <u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">In addition
                                              to creating states at
                                              transit and egress nodes,
                                              the procedure also affects
                                              the data plane and makes
                                              it unscalable. It also
                                              makes controller job much
                                              harder and error prune. In
                                              summary, I find the
                                              procedure very complex and
                                              unscalable. <u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6
                                                Zafar <u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          <div style=3D"border:none;border-=
top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span=
 style=3D"color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">From: </span></b><span style=3D"color=
:black" lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                November 15, 2017 at
                                                11:10 AM<br>
                                                <b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<w=
br>org</a>&quot;
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt=
;,
                                                &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpl=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spr=
ing@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&quot;
                                                &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sprin=
g@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                Special purpose labels
                                                in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black" la=
ng=3D"EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"> <u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang=3D"EN-US">thank you for very
                                                  well written and
                                                  thought through draft.
                                                  I have these questions
                                                  I&#39;d like to discuss:<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <ul type=3D"disc">
                                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal"> <s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">Have
                                                    you thought of using
                                                    not one special
                                                    purpose label for
                                                    both SR Path
                                                    Identifier and SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID cases but
                                                    request two special
                                                    purpose labels, one
                                                    for each case. Then
                                                    the SR Path
                                                    Identifier would not
                                                    have to lose the bit
                                                    for C flag.<u></u><u></=
u></span></li>
                                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal"> <s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">And how
                                                    you envision to
                                                    collect the counters
                                                    along the path? Of
                                                    course, a Controller
                                                    may query LSR for
                                                    all counters or
                                                    counters for the
                                                    particular flow (SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID). But in
                                                    addition I&#39;d propos=
e
                                                    to use in-band
                                                    mechanism, perhaps
                                                    another special
                                                    purpose label, to
                                                    trigger the LSR to
                                                    send counters of the
                                                    same flow with the
                                                    timestamp out-band
                                                    to the predefined
                                                    Collector.<u></u><u></u=
></span></li>
                                                <li class=3D"MsoNormal"> <s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US">And the
                                                    last, have you
                                                    considered ability
                                                    to flush counters
                                                    per flow. In
                                                    Scalability
                                                    Considerations
                                                    you&#39;ve stated that
                                                    counters are
                                                    maintained as long
                                                    as collection of
                                                    statistics is
                                                    enabled. If that is
                                                    on the node scope,
                                                    you may have to turn
                                                    off/on the
                                                    collection to flush
                                                    off some old
                                                    counters. I think
                                                    that finer
                                                    granularity, per
                                                    flow granularity
                                                    would be useful for
                                                    operators. Again,
                                                    perhaps the flow
                                                    itself may be used
                                                    to signal the end of
                                                    the measurement and
                                                    trigger release of
                                                    counters.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></li>
                                              </ul>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
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__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    </div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
                        ______________________________<wbr>________________=
_<br>
                        mpls mailing list<br>
                        <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
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></u><u></u></span></p>
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                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>__=
____________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_______=
_______________________<wbr>_<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuv=
ent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent=
 donc<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copie=
s sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le s=
ignaler<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ain=
si que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&=
#39;alteration,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite s=
i ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span>=
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 11:09:16 +0800
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To: "Faisal Iqbal (faiqbal)" <faiqbal@cisco.com>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  "draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg@ietf.org" <draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg@ietf.org>
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Hi Faisal,
many thanks for your detailed and thoughtful comments, suggestions. I'll
read it all very carefully once get out of IETF meeting adrenaline rush
(early next week). In the meantime, thank you and looking forward to work
with you on the model.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Faisal Iqbal (faiqbal) <faiqbal@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Dear Authors,
>
> Thank you for initiating the work on Yang Model for LSP Ping and sharing
> your draft. I have gone through the document and find it very useful and
> important work item. Please see below for some comments on the document.
> I=E2=80=99m still a beginner in Yang modeling so I apologize if I=E2=80=
=99m missing
> something obvious or well-understood.
>
>
>
> Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I think the document aims to specify various existing M=
PLS OAM
> targets (including P2MP) through a combination of target-fec-type and
> target-fec structure. Is my understanding correct?
>
>
>
> Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I did not find a way to specify some important paramete=
rs in the
> container control-info that operators can use to control echo request pat=
h
> or other parameters. Specifically:
>
> i.                 Operator should be allowed to specify RSVP interface
> by tunnel name as well. For some operators, name may be more meaningful
> than tunnel number.
>
> ii.                A field to provide a destination address in 127/8
> range.
>
> iii.               An option to specify a range of destination addresses
> to test e.g. give destination start address 127.0.0.1 and end address
> 127.0.0.8, system will initiate 8 echo requests correspondingly.
>
> iv.               Given that TTL is a field in the container
> control-info, I feel that operator should be given an option to specify
> whether or not to use Downstream Detailed Mapping (DDMAP) TLV, or even th=
e
> deprecated DSMAP TLV.
>
> v.                Operator should also be allowed to specify DDMAP TLV
> sub-TLV fields such as the presence, type, and size of multipath TLV.
>
>
>
> Sec 3.3 =E2=80=93 I had following questions about the result-info structu=
re.
>
> i.                 If the echo reply contains a TLV (e.g. DDMAP TLV for
> request to a transit node), how will we communicate that information to t=
he
> user? Operator may use LSP Ping to identify downstream path(s) from a
> particular downstream node.
>
> ii.                What does probe-index refer to?
>
>
>
> Sec 6 =E2=80=93 For target-fec-type, is there a way for operator to speci=
fy a
> particular control plane or FEC (as defined in RFC-8029 e.g. LDP, Generic
> FEC etc.) to be used for echo request?
>
>
>
> Does this document only tackle LSP Ping operation? Would other echo
> request operations such as LSP Traceroute for LSP path discovery be
> documented separately?
>
>
>
> Some minor editorial comments below.
>
> -=E2=80=9CModel presented in [RFC4560];=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CMode=
l presented in[RFC4560]
> ;=E2=80=9D in Section 1.2
>
> -Text in Section 3 should read =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and result information f=
or multiple
> instances of LSP-Ping test.=E2=80=9D Instead of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and res=
ult information for multi
> instances of LSP-Ping test.=E2=80=9D
>
> - "IETF Multiprotocol=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9C"IETF Multiprotocl=E2=
=80=9D in Section 6.
>
> -Description for enum success should read =E2=80=9CThe test probe is succ=
essful=E2=80=9D
> instead =E2=80=9CThe test probe is successed=E2=80=9D
>
> -Description for leaf sum-of-squares in Section 6 should read =E2=80=9Cre=
plies=E2=80=9D
> instead of =E2=80=9Creplys=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Faisal Iqbal
>

--089e082ef6c4ec746d055e250f93
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Faisal,<div>many thanks for your detailed and thoughtfu=
l comments, suggestions. I&#39;ll read it all very carefully once get out o=
f IETF meeting adrenaline rush (early next week). In the meantime, thank yo=
u and looking forward to work with you on the model.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Faisal Iqbal (faiqbal=
) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:faiqbal@cisco.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">faiqbal@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Authors,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you for initiating the work on Yang Model for =
LSP Ping and sharing your draft. I have gone through the document and find =
it very useful and important work item. Please see below for some comments =
on the document. I=E2=80=99m still a beginner
 in Yang modeling so I apologize if I=E2=80=99m missing something obvious o=
r well-understood.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I think the document aims to speci=
fy various existing MPLS OAM targets (including P2MP) through a combination=
 of target-fec-type and target-fec structure. Is my understanding correct?<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I did not find a way to specify so=
me important parameters in the container control-info that operators can us=
e to control echo request path or other parameters. Specifically:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.7=
5in">
<u></u><span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Operator should be allowed to specify RSVP interface b=
y tunnel name as well. For some operators, name may be more meaningful than=
 tunnel number.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.7=
5in">
<u></u><span>ii.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>A field to provide a destination address in 127/8 rang=
e.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.7=
5in">
<u></u><span>iii.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>An option to specify a range of destination addresses =
to test e.g. give destination start address 127.0.0.1 and end address 127.0=
.0.8, system will initiate 8 echo requests correspondingly.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.7=
5in">
<u></u><span>iv.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Given that TTL is a field in the container control-inf=
o, I feel that operator should be given an option to specify whether or not=
 to use Downstream Detailed Mapping (DDMAP) TLV, or even the deprecated DSM=
AP TLV.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.7=
5in">
<u></u><span>v.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Operator should also be allowed to specify DDMAP TLV s=
ub-TLV fields such as the presence, type, and size of multipath TLV.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.3 =E2=80=93 I had following questions about th=
e result-info structure.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.7=
5in">
<u></u><span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>If the echo reply contains a TLV (e.g. DDMAP TLV for r=
equest to a transit node), how will we communicate that information to the =
user? Operator may use LSP Ping to identify downstream path(s) from a parti=
cular downstream node.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8489394882457652800MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:.7=
5in">
<u></u><span>ii.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>What does probe-index refer to?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 6 =E2=80=93 For target-fec-type, is there a way =
for operator to specify a particular control plane or FEC (as defined in RF=
C-8029 e.g. LDP, Generic FEC etc.) to be used for echo request?<u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does this document only tackle LSP Ping operation? W=
ould other echo request operations such as LSP Traceroute for LSP path disc=
overy be documented separately?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some minor editorial comments below.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-=E2=80=9CModel presented in [RFC4560];=E2=80=9D ins=
tead of =E2=80=9CModel presented in[RFC4560] ;=E2=80=9D in Section 1.2<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Text in Section 3 should read =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and=
 result information for multiple instances of LSP-Ping test.=E2=80=9D Inste=
ad of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and result information for multi instances of LSP-P=
ing test.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- &quot;IETF Multiprotocol=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=
=80=9C&quot;IETF Multiprotocl=E2=80=9D in Section 6.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Description for enum success should read =E2=80=9CT=
he test probe is successful=E2=80=9D instead =E2=80=9CThe test probe is suc=
cessed=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Description for leaf sum-of-squares in Section 6 sh=
ould read =E2=80=9Creplies=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Creplys=E2=80=9D<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Faisal Iqbal<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e082ef6c4ec746d055e250f93--


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From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
Thread-Index: AQHTXj70Q7+fGT1teEWvdiTu0xFRa6MVvC+AgAAGKoCAAGAzgIAAAxgAgAAotgCAAMaCkIAARL4AgACO3YA=
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 03:17:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] Fwd: Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> Is there any real vendor support and real production deployment of 
> rfc5586 ?

Yes. It is used in PWs and MPLS-TP.  But it is only looked at by the 
egress PE.

>
> Is there any data on the max label depth such channel may be hidden 
> under yet still visible to forwarding hardware ?

Not that I know, but it was designed to be used only by the receiving PE 
where the number of labels would  normally be 3 or less (normally no 
more than LSP, PW, GAL).

If you are really asking about how far into the packet can we put a path 
marker that is visible to a p-router, then asking how into the packet 
can IPFIX work might be an alternative way to gather the information you 
need.

- Stewart


On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> Is there any real vendor support and real production deployment of 
> rfc5586 ?
>
> Is there any data on the max label depth such channel may be hidden 
> under yet still visible to forwarding hardware ?
>
> Thx
> R.
>
> On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com 
> <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Resenting with fewer names recipients
>
>     S
>     -------- Forwarded Message --------
>     Subject: 	Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>     Date: 	Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000
>     From: 	Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>     <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>     To: 	Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
>     <mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com>, stephane.litkowski@orange.com
>     <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>     <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>     <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk
>     <robert@raszuk.net> <mailto:robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander
>     Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>     CC: 	mpls <mpls@ietf.org> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>, spring
>     <spring@ietf.org> <mailto:spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils
>     <cfilsfil@cisco.com> <mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com>,
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,
>     Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>
>     <mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>,
>     draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
>     <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, Zafar Ali (zali)
>     <zali@cisco.com> <mailto:zali@cisco.com>
>
>
>
>
>     I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
>     Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
>     MPLS-LDP as well?
>
>     If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
>     general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
>     At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
>     Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
>     used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
>     which I understand to be the original goal.
>
>     - Stewart
>
>     On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Stephane,
>>
>>     If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost.
>>     The difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>>
>>     For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label
>>     (could be local or global) is inserted immediately follow the
>>     last label of the SR path. Since there is only one label, the
>>     path label could be put into the stack at the beginning, no
>>     matter whether the measurement is enable or not. With this, it
>>     will not affect the entropy.
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>
>>     Mach
>>
>>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>>     *stephane.litkowski@orange.com <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>>     *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>>     *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael
>>     Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali)
>>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get
>>     paths statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is
>>     based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge
>>     of the source. From an operational point of  view, what we do
>>     today is that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
>>     project the label stack onto the routing with an external tool to
>>     get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of
>>     the flows on the links.
>>
>>     Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and
>>     has states on every node.
>>
>>     Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS
>>     dataplane) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP
>>     does in SRTE without adding too much complexity).
>>
>>     Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ?
>>     If yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats
>>     issue I would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external
>>     tool that can do correlations or whatever operations rather than
>>     getting it in the forwarding plane…
>>
>>     IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do
>>     not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>>
>>     However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>>
>>     The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it
>>     mimics what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar
>>     and at the same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided
>>     entropy is far from being sufficient (this is not the goal I
>>     know, but I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
>>     in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a router
>>     will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another special
>>     label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third
>>     one to look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be a big
>>     overhead for the forwarding plane.
>>
>>     Brgds,
>>
>>     Stephane
>>
>>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert
>>     Raszuk
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>>     *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>>     *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
>>     draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>;
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
>>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Folks,
>>
>>     This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated
>>     that all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic
>>     on egress nodes.
>>
>>     Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
>>     measure per path in transit nodes.
>>
>>     Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you
>>     can do it with RSVP-TE.
>>
>>     SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
>>     SR-MPLS never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor
>>     architecture.
>>
>>     So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
>>     and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path
>>     accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for the
>>     same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.
>>
>>     Thx
>>
>>     r.
>>
>>     On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein"
>>     <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Greg,
>>
>>     I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that
>>     ability to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific
>>     transit node is a require OAM function for SR.
>>
>>     I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
>>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1>
>>     draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>>
>>     The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
>>     expired implementation report
>>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00>
>>     draft discussing delay measurements. Since delay measurements are
>>     in any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
>>     (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for
>>     this discussion.
>>
>>     I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Sasha
>>
>>     Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>>     Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>>     Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>>
>>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>>     *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
>>     *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;
>>     spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali
>>     (zali) <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls
>>     <mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Dear All,
>>
>>     I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that
>>     lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot
>>     the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early
>>     adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox
>>     be sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this
>>     work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify
>>     the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient
>>     network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
>>     requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue
>>     to discussion of what measurement method to use.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Greg
>>
>>     On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com
>>     <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient
>>         from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first
>>         priority object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>>         Best regards,
>>         Xiaohu
>>
>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>         徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>>         M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>>         E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>>         产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>>         Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>>         *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>>
>>         *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>         <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>
>>         *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>         *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet
>>         from abstract of SR Architecture document
>>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13
>>         <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13>,
>>         which states:
>>
>>         “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path
>>         while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to
>>         the SR domain.”
>>
>>         In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes,
>>         the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it
>>         unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and
>>         error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex
>>         and unscalable.
>>
>>         Thanks
>>
>>         Regards … Zafar
>>
>>         *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>>         <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>         *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>         *To:
>>         *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>>         <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>>         "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org
>>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>         *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>         Hi Shraddha,
>>
>>         thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I
>>         have these questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>           * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label
>>             for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source
>>             SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for
>>             each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to
>>             lose the bit for C flag.
>>           * And how you envision to collect the counters along the
>>             path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all
>>             counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path
>>             Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to
>>             use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose
>>             label, to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same
>>             flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.
>>           * And the last, have you considered ability to flush
>>             counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've
>>             stated that counters are maintained as long as collection
>>             of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope,
>>             you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off
>>             some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per
>>             flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again,
>>             perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of
>>             the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Greg
>>
>>
>>     ___________________________________________________________________________
>>
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>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERm5xp56juAw+qw2jKgw5h8=ybphoAt=1ASm15rgHRYVMg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="auto">Stewart,
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any real vendor support and real
          production deployment of rfc5586 ?</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Yes. It is used in PWs and MPLS-TP.  But it is only looked at by the
    egress PE.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERm5xp56juAw+qw2jKgw5h8=ybphoAt=1ASm15rgHRYVMg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="auto">
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any data on the max label depth such
          channel may be hidden under yet still visible to forwarding
          hardware ?</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Not that I know, but it was designed to be used only by the
    receiving PE where the number of labels would  normally be 3 or less
    (normally no more than LSP, PW, GAL).<br>
    <br>
    If you are really asking about how far into the packet can we put a
    path marker that is visible to a p-router, then asking how into the
    packet can IPFIX work might be an alternative way to gather the
    information you need.<br>
    <br>
    - Stewart<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/11/2017 03:00, Robert Raszuk
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERm5xp56juAw+qw2jKgw5h8=ybphoAt=1ASm15rgHRYVMg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="auto">Stewart,
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any real vendor support and real
          production deployment of rfc5586 ?</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Is there any data on the max label depth such
          channel may be hidden under yet still visible to forwarding
          hardware ?</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Thx</div>
        <div dir="auto">R.</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 03:49, "Stewart Bryant"
          &lt;<a href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br type="attribution">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
              <p>Resenting with fewer names recipients<br>
              </p>
              <div class="m_8539926704528025668moz-forward-container">S<br>
                -------- Forwarded Message --------
                <table
                  class="m_8539926704528025668moz-email-headers-table"
                  cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
                  <tbody>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">Subject: </th>
                      <td>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
                        draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
                      <td>Fri, 17 Nov 2017 02:45:18 +0000</td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">From: </th>
                      <td>Stewart Bryant <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a></td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">To: </th>
                      <td>Mach Chen <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;mach.chen@huawei.com&gt;</a>,
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;stephane.litkowski@orange.<wbr>com&gt;</a>,
                        Robert Raszuk <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:robert@raszuk.net"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;</a>,
                        Alexander Vainshtein <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a></td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE"
                        align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
                      <td>mpls <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                        spring <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;spring@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                        Clarence Filsfils <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:cfilsfil@cisco.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;cfilsfil@cisco.com&gt;</a>,
                        draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org&gt;</a>,
                        Michael Gorokhovsky <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.<wbr>com&gt;</a>,
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>
                        <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;draft-ietf-spring-oam-<wbr>usecase@ietf.org&gt;</a>,
                        Zafar Ali (zali) <a
                          class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:zali@cisco.com" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;zali@cisco.com&gt;</a></td>
                    </tr>
                  </tbody>
                </table>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
                <br>
                Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we
                need it for MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
                <br>
                If we need it for both, then we need to have this
                discussion in a general MPLS context and not in an
                MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
                <br>
                At least some of the methods described here would work
                for both.<br>
                <br>
                Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal
                paths are used, that only tells us the approximate path,
                not the hotspot which I understand to be the original
                goal. <br>
                <br>
                - Stewart<br>
                <br>
                <div class="m_8539926704528025668moz-cite-prefix">On
                  16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div class="m_8539926704528025668WordSection1">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit
                        measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
                        difference is how large the cost is, one, two or
                        multiple labels.</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be
                        much easier. A single label (could be local or
                        global) is inserted immediately follow the last
                        label of the SR path. Since there is only one
                        label, the path label could be put into the
                        stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
                        measurement is enable or not. With this, it will
                        not affect the entropy.</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">Best regards,</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US">Mach</span></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                    <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                      1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
                          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                                class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-freetext"
                                href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                              <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                                class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target="_blank"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                              6:49 PM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander
                              Vainshtein<br>
                              <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence
                              Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths;
                              Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                                class="m_8539926704528025668moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                              Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring]
                              Special purpose labels in
                              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Hi,</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI
                          command on any router to get paths statistics
                          for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is
                          based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node does not
                          have the knowledge of the source. From an
                          operational point of  view, what we do today
                          is that we collect netflow statistics on core
                          routers, we project the label stack onto the
                          routing with an external tool to get the
                          Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the
                          mapping of the flows on the links.</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such
                          statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on
                          every node.</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that
                          SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has
                          limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what
                          RSVP does in SRTE without adding too much
                          complexity).</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit
                          node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where
                          do we accept to put the complexity ? For a
                          stats issue I would rather prefer to move the
                          complexity to an external tool that can do
                          correlations or whatever operations rather
                          than getting it in the forwarding plane…</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have”
                          problem to solve getting that we do not have
                          this for LDP and we know the limitations of
                          SR-TE MPLS.</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE
                          LSP are for sure mandatory to get ! </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the
                          proposed solution is that it mimics what
                          Entropy label does with a solution which is
                          similar and at the same time cannot replace
                          entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                          from being sufficient (this is not the goal I
                          know, but I was looking for potential use case
                          optimizations). So in a network running
                          entropy label and this mechanism, a router
                          will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then
                          find another special label to build the stats
                          (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to
                          look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be
                          a big overhead for the forwarding plane. </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Brgds,</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US">Stephane</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                          lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                            href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                          <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                          <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                          <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls;
                          Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                            href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                            draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>;
                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths;
                          Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                          purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,</span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This
                                thread started and the requirements
                                reported clearly stated that all what we
                                need is the ability to account per path
                                traffic on egress nodes.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now
                                out of the sudden I see requirement
                                popping up to be able to measure per
                                path in transit nodes.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well
                                you can do it today with SRv6 if your
                                hardware allows or you can do it with
                                RSVP-TE.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS
                                is replacing LDP and adds ability for
                                limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended
                                to become connection oriented protocol
                                nor architecture.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I
                                recommend we take a step back here. Or
                                if you like first go and fix basic MPLS
                                LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path
                                accounting in transit nodes then come
                                back here to ask for the same in
                                SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On
                                  Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander
                                  Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</span></p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">I concur with your
                                      position: let’s first  of all
                                      agree that ability to measure
                                      traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in
                                      a specific transit node is a
                                      require OAM function for SR.</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">I have looked up the
                                      <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"> SR OAM
                                        Use Cases</a> draft, and I did
                                      not find any relevant use cases
                                      there. </span> <span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">The only time
                                      measurements are mentioned is a
                                      reference to an <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"> expired
                                        implementation report</a> draft
                                      discussing delay measurements. 
                                      Since delay measurements are in
                                      any case based on synthetic
                                      traffic, and are always end-to-end
                                      (one-way or two-way), this
                                      reference is not relevant, IMHO,
                                      for this discussion.</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">I have added the
                                      authors of the SR OAM Use Cases
                                      draft to tis thread.</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Office: <a
                                        href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Cell:      <a
                                        href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US">Email:   <a
                                        href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"
                                      lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                        lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                      lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                                        href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                                      <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November
                                      16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
                                      <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Cc:</b>
                                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths
                                      &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;
                                      spring &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                                      Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                                      mpls &lt;<a
                                        href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls]
                                      [spring] Special purpose labels in
                                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                      lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                          lang="EN-US">Dear All,</span></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">I cannot
                                            imagine that operators will
                                            agree to deploy network that
                                            lacks critical OAM tools to
                                            monitor performance and
                                            troubleshoot the network.
                                            True, some will brave the
                                            challenge and be the early
                                            adopters but even they will
                                            likely request that the OAM
                                            toolbox be sufficient to
                                            support their operational
                                            needs. I see that this work
                                            clearly describes the
                                            problem and why ability to
                                            quantify the flow behavior
                                            at internal nodes is
                                            important for efficient
                                            network operation. First
                                            let's discuss whether the
                                            case and requirement towards
                                            OAM is real and valid. Then
                                            we can continue to
                                            discussion of what
                                            measurement method to use.</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">Greg</span></p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16,
                                            2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu
                                            &lt;<a
                                              href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                            wrote:</span></p>
                                        <blockquote
                                          style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                          #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm
                                          0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Concur.
                                                  Although it has some
                                                  values, it's not
                                                  cost-efficient from my
                                                  point of view. Network
                                                  simplicity should be
                                                  the first priority
                                                  object. Hence we would
                                                  have to make some
                                                  compromise.<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Best regards,<br>
                                                  Xiaohu <br>
                                                  <br>
                                                </span></p>
                                              <div class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="text-align:center"
                                                align="center"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">
                                                  <hr size="2"
                                                    align="center"
                                                    width="100%"> </span></div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span>徐小虎</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                                  M</span><span>：</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><a
                                                    href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                                  <br>
                                                  E</span><span>：</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><a
                                                    href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                                </span><span>产品与解决方案</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">-</span><span>网</span><span>络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><br>
                                                  Products &amp;
                                                  Solutions-Network
                                                  Strategy &amp;
                                                  Business Development
                                                  Dept</span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div
                                              style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                              #b5c4df
                                              1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm
                                              0cm 0cm"
                                              name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span>发件人：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">Zafar
                                                    Ali (zali)</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">Greg
                                                    Mirsky&lt;<a
                                                      href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                      target="_blank"
                                                      moz-do-not-send="true">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span>题：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">Re:
                                                    [mpls] [spring]
                                                    Special purpose
                                                    labels in
                                                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="line-height:15.0pt"><b><span>时间：</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                                    lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                                    02:24:10</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="line-height:15.0pt"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt" lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">Hi,
                                                      </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">This
                                                        draft breaks the
                                                        SR architecture.
                                                        I am quoting a
                                                        snippet from
                                                        abstract of SR
                                                        Architecture
                                                        document <a
                                                          href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13</a>,
                                                        which states:</span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">“SR
                                                        allows to
                                                        enforce a flow
                                                        through any
                                                        topological path
                                                        while
                                                        maintaining
                                                        per-flow state
                                                        only at the
                                                        ingress nodes to
                                                        the SR domain.”
                                                      </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US">In
                                                        addition to
                                                        creating states
                                                        at transit and
                                                        egress nodes,
                                                        the procedure
                                                        also affects the
                                                        data plane and
                                                        makes it
                                                        unscalable. It
                                                        also makes
                                                        controller job
                                                        much harder and
                                                        error prune. In
                                                        summary, I find
                                                        the procedure
                                                        very complex and
                                                        unscalable. </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Thanks</span></p>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Regards
                                                          … Zafar </span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                        lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    <div
                                                      style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                                      #b5c4df
                                                      1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                                      0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="color:black" lang="EN-US">From: </span></b><span
                                                          style="color:black"
                                                          lang="EN-US">spring
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                          on behalf of
                                                          Greg Mirsky
                                                          &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                          November 15,
                                                          2017 at 11:10
                                                          AM<br>
                                                          <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>"
                                                          &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
                                                          "<a
                                                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<a
                                                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a
                                                          href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                          <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                          Special
                                                          purpose labels
                                                          in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">
                                                        </span></p>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                          well written
                                                          and thought
                                                          through draft.
                                                          I have these
                                                          questions I'd
                                                          like to
                                                          discuss:</span><span
                                                          lang="EN-US"></span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <ul type="disc">
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal">
                                                          <span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Have
                                                          you thought of
                                                          using not one
                                                          special
                                                          purpose label
                                                          for both SR
                                                          Path
                                                          Identifier and
                                                          SR Path
                                                          Identifier+Source
                                                          SID cases but
                                                          request two
                                                          special
                                                          purpose
                                                          labels, one
                                                          for each case.
                                                          Then the SR
                                                          Path
                                                          Identifier
                                                          would not have
                                                          to lose the
                                                          bit for C
                                                          flag.</span></li>
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal">
                                                          <span
                                                          lang="EN-US">And
                                                          how you
                                                          envision to
                                                          collect the
                                                          counters along
                                                          the path? Of
                                                          course, a
                                                          Controller may
                                                          query LSR for
                                                          all counters
                                                          or counters
                                                          for the
                                                          particular
                                                          flow (SR Path
Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band
                                                          mechanism,
                                                          perhaps
                                                          another
                                                          special
                                                          purpose label,
                                                          to trigger the
                                                          LSR to send
                                                          counters of
                                                          the same flow
                                                          with the
                                                          timestamp
                                                          out-band to
                                                          the predefined
                                                          Collector.</span></li>
                                                          <li
                                                          class="MsoNormal">
                                                          <span
                                                          lang="EN-US">And
                                                          the last, have
                                                          you considered
                                                          ability to
                                                          flush counters
                                                          per flow. In
                                                          Scalability
                                                          Considerations
                                                          you've stated
                                                          that counters
                                                          are maintained
                                                          as long as
                                                          collection of
                                                          statistics is
                                                          enabled. If
                                                          that is on the
                                                          node scope,
                                                          you may have
                                                          to turn off/on
                                                          the collection
                                                          to flush off
                                                          some old
                                                          counters. I
                                                          think that
                                                          finer
                                                          granularity,
                                                          per flow
                                                          granularity
                                                          would be
                                                          useful for
                                                          operators.
                                                          Again, perhaps
                                                          the flow
                                                          itself may be
                                                          used to signal
                                                          the end of the
                                                          measurement
                                                          and trigger
                                                          release of
                                                          counters.</span></li>
                                                        </ul>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><span
                                                          lang="EN-US">Greg</span></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </blockquote>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                          lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls@ietf.org,  Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>,  Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>,  Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>,  "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>,  "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Folks,

LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet
takes is well known.

What is there to record at each transit router hop other then what you
already have today from basic netflow counters ?

Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, th=
e
> requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
> *To:* Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; Alexander
> Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general
> MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used,
> that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understa=
nd
> to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
>
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
> path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the
> stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or no=
t.
> With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSP=
s,
> so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
> operational point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow
> statistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
> with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including
> the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
>
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states
> on every node.
>
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes,
> where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rath=
er
> prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlation=
s
> or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6
>
> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have
> this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what
> Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
> cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being
> sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential
> use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this
> mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
> another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a
> third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big =
overhead
> for the forwarding plane.
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths;
> Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
> what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>
>
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
> per path in transit nodes.
>
>
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do
> it with RSVP-TE.
>
>
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
>
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
> basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
> nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other w=
ay
> around.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<
> spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/
> draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
> This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains
> information which is
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> received this
> transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then
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>
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
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>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________=
________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid=
entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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>
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>
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>

--94eb2c1b4fe8ce17d4055e254b32
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">LDP L=
SPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet takes=
 is well known.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">What is =
there to record at each transit router hop other then what you already have=
 today from basic netflow counters ?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, &quot;Mach Chen=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4059884648803605259WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Indeed, th=
e same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requiremen=
ts that I heard are from MPLS-SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Stewart Bryant [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.b=
ryant@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; Robert Raszuk; Alexander V=
ainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr=
>accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf=
-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-useca=
se@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
<br>
Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-LDP=
 as well?<br>
<br>
If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general M=
PLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
<br>
At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
<br>
Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, th=
at only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand t=
o be the original goal.
<br>
<br>
- Stewart<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stephan=
e,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you wan=
t to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The difference is h=
ow large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">For E2E me=
asurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be local or globa=
l) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
 path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the =
stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not.=
 With this, it will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr=
>accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes today =
we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths statistics for LD=
P (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs,
 so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an opera=
tional point of=C2=A0 view, what we do today is that we collect netflow sta=
tistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with a=
n external tool to get the Ingress to
 Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Now for RS=
VP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on every no=
de.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Robert men=
tioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE=
 features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
 adding too much complexity).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thus, is i=
t a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we a=
ccept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather
 prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations=
 or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">IMO, that=
=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve getting that w=
e do not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">However, I=
ngress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The main d=
rawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what Entropy lab=
el does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
 cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suf=
ficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use c=
ase optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanis=
m, a router will need to find the
 ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe=
 tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). =
That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Brgds,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Stephane</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread started and the req=
uirements reported clearly stated that all what we need is the ability to a=
ccount per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of the sudden I see req=
uirement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can do it today with S=
Rv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and ad=
ds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection =
oriented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommend we take a step b=
ack here. Or if you like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per =
end to end path accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for =
the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
 around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, &quot;Al=
exander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Greg,</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I concur w=
ith your position: let=E2=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to m=
easure traffic
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM functi=
on for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have loo=
ked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The only t=
ime measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have add=
ed the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Regards,</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sasha</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I cannot imagine that operators=
 will agree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor perf=
ormance and troubleshoot the network. True, some will
 brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will likely re=
quest that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs=
. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to qua=
ntify the flow behavior at internal
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discus=
s whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 A=
M, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my po=
int of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence =
we would have to make
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-1=
3910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank=
">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=
=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=
=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for=
-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"=
>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spri=
ng] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24=
:10</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a=
 flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at=
 the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much
 harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and =
unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">than=
k you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questio=
ns I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose labe=
l for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but r=
equest two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Iden=
tifier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the=
 path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters f=
or the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#=
39;d propose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters=
 of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<=
u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush cou=
nters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counte=
rs are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that i=
s on the node scope, you may have to turn
 off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer g=
ranularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perh=
aps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and tr=
igger release of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
<br>
This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>___________________=
___________<wbr>_<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir=
 des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<u></u>=
<u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autor=
isation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<u></=
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les p=
ieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alterati=
on,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message=
 a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">This message and its attachments may contain conf=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
___<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">mpls mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--94eb2c1b4fe8ce17d4055e254b32--


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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, "Alexander Vainshtein" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "Michael Gorokhovsky" <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/EO75XEfGz9waE6PlmFzrDzNHZWA>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 04:02:16 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/xqG9KT0WFC_aL6yJ-bpBcWEAw1c>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From nobody Thu Nov 16 20:07:53 2017
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From: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>, "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>, "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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References: <12fc01d35e9c$ad540470$07fc0d50$@olddog.co.uk> <LEXPR01MB0094E212D3765DA6BA1AAEC49C2E0@LEXPR01MB0094.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE> <MWHPR05MB3551B49226876BE7FD0EA584C72E0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <E6C17D2345AC7A45B7D054D407AA205C68FD8F26@eusaamb105.ericsson.se> <MWHPR05MB3551810B278B964DD7822526C72F0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com>
From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 12:53:52 +0800
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To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
Cc: David Allan I <david.i.allan@ericsson.com>,  "Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>,  "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "zali@cisco.com" <zali@cisco.com>,  "robert@raszuk.net" <robert@raszuk.net>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/BSyTpWMpeDSbgmrMilaF91drXVo>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi John, et. al,
GAL may be placed anywhere in the stack, not only at the BoS. That was
re-affirmed by RFC 6423 that extended applicability of the GAL to PWs. Thus
GAL indicates that the ACH immediately follows the label stack, i.e. what
ever label has S bit set. Resulting from that, I think, we may set GAL
multiple times in SR-MPLS stack to work around the RLD syndrome. Yes, it is
bump-in-a-wire with ACH.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 12:02 PM, John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net> wrote:

> Dave,
>
>
>
> I think the EoS bit is set in the GAL.  I.e., there would be a small fixe=
d
> size identifier between the stack and the payload.  As I indicated it=E2=
=80=99s
> just a suggestion.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* David Allan I [mailto:david.i.allan@ericsson.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:26 PM
> *To:* John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>; Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>; adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Would not the concept of
>
>
>
> <forwarding labels><GAL><id>(EOS set)<payload>
>
>
>
> Get a bit strange?  We are simply swapping one reserved label for another=
=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 *On
> Behalf Of *John E Drake
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:00 PM
> *To:* Ext - Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>;
> adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Ruediger,
>
>
>
> There is also the possibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH
> containing the SR Segment List Id.  This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s s=
uggestion
> of using a VXLAN header.
>
>
>
> Yours Irrespectively,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM
> *To:* adrian@olddog.co.uk
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org;
> spring@ietf.org; robert@raszuk.net; mpls@ietf.org; zali@cisco.com
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Adrian,
>
>
>
> to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an analysis may help to fin=
d a
> useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect traffic statistics als=
o for
> packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortest end to end path. There=E2=
=80=99s no simple
> howto, I think.
>
>
>
> For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add special labels to the s=
tack.
> What other options are there?
>
> -        Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stack only.
>
> -        Accounting of an n-label stack.
>
> -        Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID Labels and
> Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit the numb=
er
> of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labels carryi=
ng
> global routing information.
>
> -        A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label into the
> stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintained. One
> might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces the
> label stack carrying routing information relevant for the path. That woul=
d
> simplify accounting, but it requires suitable IGP functionality.
>
>
>
> None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (and simpler) ones I
> didn=E2=80=99t come upon?
>
>
>
> Regards, Ruediger
>
>
>
> *Von:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org>] =
*Im
> Auftrag von *Adrian Farrel
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35
> *An:* 'Mach Chen' <mach.chen@huawei.com>; 'Jeff Tantsura' <
> jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>
> *Cc:* 'draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths' <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; 'spring' <
> spring@ietf.org>; 'Zafar Ali (zali)' <zali@cisco.com>; 'mpls' <
> mpls@ietf.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Let's unpick a couple of things...
>
>
>
> 1. This work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking abou=
t
> peer SR-path accounting
>
> 2. ipfix on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marke=
r
> in the packets
>
> 3. Yes, SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the netwo=
rk
>
> But this third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is
> good, but we want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they a=
re
> necessary.
>
> To get the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or
> consider ECMP.
>
>
>
> This discussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP
> networks.
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--94eb2c1a656cf51ca4055e2685e5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi John, et. al,<div>GAL may be placed anywhere in the sta=
ck, not only at the BoS. That was re-affirmed by RFC 6423 that extended app=
licability of the GAL to PWs. Thus GAL indicates that the ACH immediately f=
ollows the label stack, i.e. what ever label has S bit set. Resulting from =
that, I think, we may set GAL multiple times in SR-MPLS stack to work aroun=
d the RLD syndrome. Yes, it is bump-in-a-wire with ACH.</div><div><br></div=
><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 12:02 PM, John E Drake <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drake@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7984411085068244073WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Dave,<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">I think the EoS bit is=
 set in the GAL.=C2=A0 I.e., there would be a small fixed size identifier b=
etween the stack and the payload.=C2=A0 As I indicated it=E2=80=99s just a =
suggestion.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> David Allan I [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:david.i.allan@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">david.i.allan@<wbr>ericsson.=
com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> John E Drake &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrake@juniper.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrake@juniper.net</a>&gt;; Ext - <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@=
telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de<=
/a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a><span class=3D""><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting=
-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=
=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
</span><b>Subject:</b> RE: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in=
 draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would not the concept of <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;forwarding labels&gt;&lt;GAL&gt;&lt;id&gt;(EOS s=
et)&lt;payload&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Get a bit strange?=C2=A0 We are simply swapping one =
reserved label for another=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounce=
s@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John E Drake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 8:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ext - <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@teleko=
m.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.u=
k</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">za=
li@cisco.com</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">
robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">m=
pls@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Ruediger,<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">There is also the poss=
ibility of using a GAL w/ a new fixed size GACH containing the SR Segment L=
ist Id.=C2=A0 This is similar to Robert=E2=80=99s suggestion of using a VXL=
AN header. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Yours Irrespectively,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">John<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
</span><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0=
in 0in 4.0pt"><span class=3D"">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_=
blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@=
olddog.co.uk</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>; =
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
spring@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>robert@raszuk.net</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali=
@cisco.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE">Adrian,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to me, there=E2=80=99s no ideal solution. But an ana=
lysis may help to find a useful solution. There=E2=80=99s a need to collect=
 traffic statistics also for packets which don=E2=80=99t follow the shortes=
t end to end path. There=E2=80=99s no simple howto, I think.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the time being, I=E2=80=99d prefer not to add sp=
ecial labels to the stack. What other options are there?<u></u><u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting at the router pushing a relevant label stac=
k only.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Accounting of an n-label stack.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Acoounting of a subset of labels only (e.g. Node-SID L=
abels and Anycast-SID, but not ADJ-SID). The idea is a compromise to limit =
the number of counters be maintained. Consider accounting of the top 2 labe=
ls carrying global routing information.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>A special label. Shradda proposes to put such a label =
into the stack. The labels present there prior to the addition are maintain=
ed. One might think about a single top label which identifies and replaces =
the label stack carrying routing
 information relevant for the path. That would simplify accounting, but it =
requires suitable IGP functionality. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><span class=3D=
"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None of the options sounds simple. Are there more (a=
nd simpler) ones I didn=E2=80=99t come upon?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards, Ruediger<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Von:</b> spring [<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.<wbr>org</a>]
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Adrian Farrel<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 16. November 2017 06:35<br>
<b>An:</b> &#39;<span lang=3D"DE">Mach Chen&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach=
.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Jeff=
 Tantsura&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; &#39;Robert Raszuk&#39; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&#39=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; &#39;spring&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spri=
ng@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 &#39;Zafar Ali (zali)&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; &#39;mpls&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [spring] [mpls] redux: Special purpose labels in draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Let&#39=
;s unpick a couple of things...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">1. This=
 work is not talking about per-flow accounting, it is talking about peer SR=
-path accounting<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">2. ipfi=
x on its own does not cut it because you still have to put a marker in the =
packets<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">3. Yes,=
 SR assumes there is no (i.e. zero) state per SR-path in the network<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">But thi=
s third point causes a tension: we want to use SR because it is good, but w=
e want to do transit node diagnostics because (frankly) they are necessary.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">To get =
the full picture of why they are necessary read the draft, or consider ECMP=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">This di=
scussion will not be unfamiliar to those who tried to debug LDP networks.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Adrian<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:56:30 +0800
Cc: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls@ietf.org, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>,  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
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References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <AM4PR03MB171328C37B726DE4AFF862D39D2E0@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CA+b+ERkYZpdGS90VBH202yXbDeaEcyHk3UWNW+NUKS-WrkHAOg@mail.gmail.com> <25654_1510829327_5A0D6D0F_25654_230_1_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF921EABF115@OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2922B1DEF@dggeml510-mbs.china.huawei.com> <d36c2887-3722-b9ab-76fa-aecca77f0018@gmail.com> <F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2922B5C80@dggeml510-mbs.china.huawei.com> <CA+b+ERmr3OKeM9DxaovbTTK+MuLSwdBGb+viP+xsGZym55QNxg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/2GUhh4l-1FOZLiH0FKlxan6dcYE>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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> On 17 Nov 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>=20
> Folks,
>=20
> LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet=
 takes is well known.
>=20
Yes but ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr s=
tack to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better tr=
affic spread.

> What is there to record at each transit router hop other then what you alr=
eady have today from basic netflow counters ?
=20
The traffic source.

Stewart


>=20
> Thx
> R.
>=20
>> On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:
>> Hi Stewart,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, th=
e requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>>=20
>> Mach
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]=20
>> Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
>> To: Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; Alexander Va=
inshtein
>> Cc: mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;=
 Zafar Ali (zali)
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>>=20
>> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-L=
DP as well?
>>=20
>> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general=
 MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>>=20
>> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>>=20
>> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, t=
hat only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand t=
o be the original goal.=20
>>=20
>> - Stewart
>>=20
>> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Stephane,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The dif=
ference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be lo=
cal or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR path.=
 Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the stack a=
t the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not. With th=
is, it will not affect the entropy.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>>=20
>> Mach
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of stephane.litkowski=
@orange.com
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>> To: Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>> Cc: mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accountin=
g-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org;=
 Zafar Ali (zali)
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths stati=
stics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a t=
ransit node does not have the knowledge of the source. =46rom an operational=
 point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow statistics on c=
ore routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with an external to=
ol to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flo=
ws on the links.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states=
 on every node.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without ad=
ding too much complexity).
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, w=
here do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather p=
refer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations or=
 whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=80=A6=

>>=20
>> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE M=
PLS.
>>=20
>> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what=
 Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time ca=
nnot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suffici=
ent (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use case o=
ptimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a r=
outer will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label=
 to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and=
 a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding=
 plane.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Brgds,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Stephane
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>> To: Alexander Vainshtein
>> Cc: spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spri=
ng-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;=
 Zafar Ali (zali)
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Folks,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all=
 what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure p=
er path in transit nodes.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do i=
t with RSVP-TE.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS nev=
er intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix b=
asic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit nodes t=
hen come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.=

>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Thx
>>=20
>> r.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecite=
le.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Greg,
>>=20
>> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a=
 require OAM function for SR.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases draft, and I did not find any relev=
ant use cases there.
>>=20
>> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired imp=
lementation report draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measure=
ments are in any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (=
one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussi=
on.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Sasha
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Office: +972-39266302
>>=20
>> Cell:      +972-549266302
>>=20
>> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>> To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>> Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-sprin=
g-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <spring@ietf.org>; Zafar=
 Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring=
-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Dear All,
>>=20
>> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks c=
ritical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network. True,=
 some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will l=
ikely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operationa=
l needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability t=
o quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient ne=
twork operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement toward=
s OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurem=
ent method to use.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Greg
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we w=
ould have to make some compromise.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
>> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692=20
>> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
>> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=
=A8
>> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>=20
>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Zafar Ali (zali)
>>=20
>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>;d=
raft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.or=
g>
>>=20
>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in=
 draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstra=
ct of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring=
-segment-routing-13, which states:
>>=20
>> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while m=
aintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D=

>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure=
 also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes controll=
er job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very co=
mplex and unscalable.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Thanks
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimir=
sky@gmail.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>> To: "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-=
hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpl=
s@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac=
counting-for-sr-paths
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>=20
>> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these q=
uestions I'd like to discuss:
>>=20
>> Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR Path I=
dentifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request two special pu=
rpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have t=
o lose the bit for C flag.
>> And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of course, a=
 Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for the particular fl=
ow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-ba=
nd mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to s=
end counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined C=
ollector.
>> And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per flow. In S=
calability Considerations you've stated that counters are maintained as long=
 as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you m=
ay have to turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I thin=
k that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators=
. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measur=
ement and trigger release of counters.
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Greg
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _________________________________________________________________________=
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 17 No=
v 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net">=
robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
><div dir=3D"auto">Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">LDP L=
SPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet takes i=
s well known.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
>Yes but ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr=
 stack to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better t=
raffic spread.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v dir=3D"auto">What is there to record at each transit router hop other then=
 what you already have today from basic netflow counters ?</div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div>The traffic source.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Stewart</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thx</div><div dir=3D"au=
to">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.co=
m">mach.chen@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4059884648803605259WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp=
;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Indeed, the s=
ame idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requirements t=
hat I heard are from MPLS-SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp=
;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regards=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp=
;<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</=
span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ta=
homa&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Stewart Bryant [mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.bryant=
@gmail.<wbr>com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vai=
nshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>=
accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-s=
pring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@=
<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><=
br>
I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
<br>
Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-LDP a=
s well?<br>
<br>
If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general MP=
LS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
<br>
At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
<br>
Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, tha=
t only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand to b=
e the original goal.
<br>
<br>
- Stewart<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stephane,=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you want t=
o do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The difference is how l=
arge the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">For E2E meas=
urement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be local or global) i=
s inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
 path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the s=
tack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not. W=
ith this, it will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regards=
,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=3D=
"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>=
accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes today we=
 do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths statistics for LDP (=
I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs,
 so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. =46rom an oper=
ational point of&nbsp; view, what we do today is that we collect netflow sta=
tistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with an=
 external tool to get the Ingress to
 Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Now for RSVP=
, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Robert menti=
oned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE fe=
atures (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
 adding too much complexity).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thus, is it a=
 problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accep=
t to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather
 prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations o=
r whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=80=A6=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">IMO, that=E2=
=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve getting that we do=
 not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">However, Ing=
ress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The main dra=
wback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what Entropy label d=
oes with a solution which is similar and at the same time
 cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suff=
icient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use cas=
e optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a=
 router will need to find the
 ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe t=
omorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). Tha=
t starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Brgds,</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Stephane</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-=
<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread started and the requ=
irements reported clearly stated that all what we need is the ability to acc=
ount per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of the sudden I see requ=
irement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can do it today with SR=
v6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and add=
s ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection or=
iented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommend we take a step ba=
ck here. Or if you like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per en=
d to end path accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for the=
 same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
 around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexande=
r Vainshtein" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Greg,</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I concur wit=
h your position: let=E2=80=99s first &nbsp;of all agree that ability to meas=
ure traffic
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM functio=
n for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have looke=
d up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?i=
nclude_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.=
 </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The only tim=
e measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementat=
ion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.&nbsp;=
 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, and ar=
e always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IM=
HO, for this discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have added=
 the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Regards,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sasha</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cell:&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Email:&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexan=
der.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">&nbsp;</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpl=
s-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf=
.<wbr>org</a>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">za=
li@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-sp=
ring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I cannot imagine that operators w=
ill agree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor perform=
ance and troubleshoot the network. True, some will
 brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will likely req=
uest that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs. I=
 see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantif=
y the flow behavior at internal
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whe=
ther the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can con=
tinue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM=
, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xuxi=
aohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm=
 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bo=
ttom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">C=
oncur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my point of=
 view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we woul=
d have to make
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-139=
10161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">=
xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=
=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span><=
span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=
=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=91=
=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)<=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"=
>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">draft-<wbr>hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<wbr>spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=B8=
=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=
=93">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [sprin=
g] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-=
sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=B6=
=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24:=
10</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"E=
N-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archite=
cture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"=
 target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-spring-segment-<wbr>routing-13</=
a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a f=
low through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at th=
e ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states a=
t transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and ma=
kes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much
 harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and u=
nscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Gre=
g Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">greg=
imirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-p=
aths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-=
for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-tra=
ffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-=
traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.<wbr>org</a>&gt;,
 "<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>" &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<=
a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>" &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffi=
c-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">thank=
 you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questions=
 I'd like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose label=
 for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but req=
uest two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identif=
ier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the p=
ath? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for t=
he particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd prop=
ose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters o=
f the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush coun=
ters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are=
 maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is on th=
e node scope, you may have to turn
 off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer gr=
anularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perhap=
s the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and trigg=
er release of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>, "stephane.litkowski@orange.com" <stephane.litkowski@orange.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, Clarence Filsfils <cfilsfil@cisco.com>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Michael Gorokhovsky <Michael.Gorokhovsky@ecitele.com>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Mach

The hotspot avoidance idea woud seem to apply to both SR and reguar LDP 
since you can always manipulate the EL modify the ECMP split. If you had 
SR that would be more direct, but EL change would be applicable to 
legacy networks. Since instrumentation could be via IPFIX prettyy much 
any P-router can support this.

Stewart


On 17/11/2017 03:17, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stewart,
>
> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, 
> the requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
> *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
> *To:* Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; 
> Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
> general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are 
> used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
> understand to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
>     Hi Stephane,
>
>     If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost.
>     The difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>     For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label
>     (could be local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last
>     label of the SR path. Since there is only one label, the path
>     label could be put into the stack at the beginning, no matter
>     whether the measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
>     affect the entropy.
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     Mach
>
>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>     *stephane.litkowski@orange.com <mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com>
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>     *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>     *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael
>     Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali)
>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi,
>
>     Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get
>     paths statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is
>     based on MP2P LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge
>     of the source. From an operational point of  view, what we do
>     today is that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
>     project the label stack onto the routing with an external tool to
>     get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the
>     flows on the links.
>
>     Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has
>     states on every node.
>
>     Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS
>     dataplane) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP
>     does in SRTE without adding too much complexity).
>
>     Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If
>     yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue
>     I would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool
>     that can do correlations or whatever operations rather than
>     getting it in the forwarding plane…
>
>     IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do
>     not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
>     However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>     The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it
>     mimics what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar
>     and at the same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided
>     entropy is far from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know,
>     but I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So in a
>     network running entropy label and this mechanism, a router will
>     need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label
>     to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to
>     look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be a big overhead for
>     the forwarding plane.
>
>     Brgds,
>
>     Stephane
>
>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert
>     Raszuk
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>     *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>     *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
>     draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>;
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Folks,
>
>     This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated
>     that all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic
>     on egress nodes.
>
>     Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
>     measure per path in transit nodes.
>
>     Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you
>     can do it with RSVP-TE.
>
>     SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
>     SR-MPLS never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor
>     architecture.
>
>     So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
>     and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path
>     accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for the
>     same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.
>
>     Thx
>
>     r.
>
>     On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein"
>     <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
>     Greg,
>
>     I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that
>     ability to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific
>     transit node is a require OAM function for SR.
>
>     I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1>
>     draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
>     The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
>     expired implementation report
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00>
>     draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are
>     in any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
>     (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for
>     this discussion.
>
>     I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Sasha
>
>     Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
>     Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
>     Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>     <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
>     *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>     *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
>     *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;
>     spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali
>     (zali) <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls
>     <mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Dear All,
>
>     I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that
>     lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot
>     the network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early
>     adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be
>     sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this
>     work clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the
>     flow behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network
>     operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement
>     towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion
>     of what measurement method to use.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>     On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com
>     <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>         Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient
>         from my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first
>         priority object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>         Best regards,
>         Xiaohu
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>         M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>         E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>         产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>         Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>         *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>         *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>         <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>         *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>         *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>         Hi,
>
>         This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet
>         from abstract of SR Architecture document
>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>         which states:
>
>         “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path
>         while maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to
>         the SR domain.”
>
>         In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes,
>         the procedure also affects the data plane and makes it
>         unscalable. It also makes controller job much harder and error
>         prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and
>         unscalable.
>
>         Thanks
>
>         Regards … Zafar
>
>         *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>         <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>         *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>         *To:
>         *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>         <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>         <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>         "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>         <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org
>         <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>         *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>         draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>         Hi Shraddha,
>
>         thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I
>         have these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>           * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label
>             for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source
>             SID cases but request two special purpose labels, one for
>             each case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to
>             lose the bit for C flag.
>           * And how you envision to collect the counters along the
>             path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all
>             counters or counters for the particular flow (SR Path
>             Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd propose to use
>             in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose label,
>             to trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with
>             the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.
>           * And the last, have you considered ability to flush
>             counters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've
>             stated that counters are maintained as long as collection
>             of statistics is enabled. If that is on the node scope,
>             you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush off
>             some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per
>             flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again,
>             perhaps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of
>             the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>         Regards,
>
>         Greg
>
>
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    <p>Hi Mach</p>
    <p>The hotspot avoidance idea woud seem to apply to both SR and
      reguar LDP since you can always manipulate the EL modify the ECMP
      split. If you had SR that would be more direct, but EL change
      would be applicable to legacy networks. Since instrumentation
      could be via IPFIX prettyy much any P-router can support this.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Stewart<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/11/2017 03:17, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
    </div>
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Hi Stewart,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR
            and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requirements that I heard are
            from MPLS-SR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
            lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"
                  lang="EN-US"> Stewart Bryant
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>;
                  Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                  Michael Gorokhovsky;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali
                  (zali)<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                  labels in
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
              lang="EN-US"><br>
              I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
              <br>
              Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we
              need it for MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
              <br>
              If we need it for both, then we need to have this
              discussion in a general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR
              specific context.<br>
              <br>
              At least some of the methods described here would work for
              both.<br>
              <br>
              Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal
              paths are used, that only tells us the approximate path,
              not the hotspot which I understand to be the original
              goal.
              <br>
              <br>
              - Stewart<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46,
                Mach Chen wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you
                have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
                cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span
                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much
                easier. A single label (could be local or global) is
                inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
                path. Since there is only one label, the path label
                could be put into the stack at the beginning, no matter
                whether the measurement is enable or not. With this, it
                will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Best regards,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Mach</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                        lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                        href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                        href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                      Michael Gorokhovsky;
                      <a
                        href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                      Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                      purpose labels in
                      draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                      lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Hi,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command
                  on any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                  Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                  transit node does not have the knowledge of the
                  source. From an operational point of  view, what we do
                  today is that we collect netflow statistics on core
                  routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
                  with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP
                  traffic including the mapping of the flows on the
                  links.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics
                  as the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                  (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE
                  features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE
                  without adding too much complexity).</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node
                  stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept
                  to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would
                  rather prefer to move the complexity to an external
                  tool that can do correlations or whatever operations
                  rather than getting it in the forwarding plane…</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to
                  solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                  know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are
                  for sure mandatory to get !
                </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                  solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does
                  with a solution which is similar and at the same time
                  cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy
                  is far from being sufficient (this is not the goal I
                  know, but I was looking for potential use case
                  optimizations). So in a network running entropy label
                  and this mechanism, a router will need to find the
                  ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to
                  build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a third
                  one to look at and a fourth one…). That starts to be a
                  big overhead for the forwarding plane.
                </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Brgds,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US">Stephane</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                  lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                    href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                  Gorokhovsky; <a
                    href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">
                    draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                  Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                  labels in
                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                        started and the requirements reported clearly
                        stated that all what we need is the ability to
                        account per path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of
                        the sudden I see requirement popping up to be
                        able to measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can
                        do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                        you can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                        replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE.
                        But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                        oriented protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I
                        recommend we take a step back here. Or if you
                        like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to
                        allow per end to end path accounting in transit
                        nodes then come back here to ask for the same in
                        SR-MPLS. Not the other way around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                          2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                            moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                          wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                              let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                              measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in
                              a specific transit node is a require OAM
                              function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">I have looked up the
                              <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did
                              not find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                            <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">The only time measurements
                              are mentioned is a reference to an
                              <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                expired implementation report</a> draft
                              discussing delay measurements.  Since
                              delay measurements are in any case based
                              on synthetic traffic, and are always
                              end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this
                              reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this
                              discussion.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of
                              the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Office:
                              <a href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Cell:     
                              <a href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US">Email:  
                              <a
                                href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                              lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                                lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                                href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                              <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                              4:28 AM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                              <b>Cc:</b>
                              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                              &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                              spring &lt;<a
                                href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                              Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                                href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                              mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring]
                              Special purpose labels in
                              draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                              lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                    operators will agree to deploy
                                    network that lacks critical OAM
                                    tools to monitor performance and
                                    troubleshoot the network. True, some
                                    will brave the challenge and be the
                                    early adopters but even they will
                                    likely request that the OAM toolbox
                                    be sufficient to support their
                                    operational needs. I see that this
                                    work clearly describes the problem
                                    and why ability to quantify the flow
                                    behavior at internal nodes is
                                    important for efficient network
                                    operation. First let's discuss
                                    whether the case and requirement
                                    towards OAM is real and valid. Then
                                    we can continue to discussion of
                                    what measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                    lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                    10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                      href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                    wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                <blockquote
                                  style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                  #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                          lang="EN-US">Concur. Although
                                          it has some values, it's not
                                          cost-efficient from my point
                                          of view. Network simplicity
                                          should be the first priority
                                          object. Hence we would have to
                                          make some compromise.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Best regards,<br>
                                          Xiaohu <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <br>
                                          <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      <div class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="text-align:center"
                                        align="center"><span
                                          lang="EN-US">
                                          <hr size="2" align="center"
                                            width="100%">
                                        </span></div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">徐小虎</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
                                          M</span><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><a
                                            href="tel:+86-13910161692"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">+86-13910161692</a>
                                          <br>
                                          E</span><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">：</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><a
                                            href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
                                        </span><span
                                          style="font-family:宋体">产品与解决方案</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US">-</span><span
                                          style="font-family:&quot;MS
                                          Gothic&quot;">网</span><span
                                          style="font-family:宋体">络战略与业务发展部</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><br>
                                          Products &amp;
                                          Solutions-Network Strategy
                                          &amp; Business Development
                                          Dept<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div
                                      style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                      #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm
                                      0cm 0cm"
                                      name="AnyOffice-Background-Image">
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:宋体">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali
                                            (zali)</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                              target="_blank"
                                              moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:宋体">题：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                            [spring] Special purpose
                                            labels in
                                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:宋体">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                              style="font-size:10.5pt">
                                            </span></b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                            lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                            02:24:10</span><span
                                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Hi,
                                                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">This draft
                                                breaks the SR
                                                architecture. I am
                                                quoting a snippet from
                                                abstract of SR
                                                Architecture document
                                                <a
                                                  href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                                which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">“SR allows
                                                to enforce a flow
                                                through any topological
                                                path while maintaining
                                                per-flow state only at
                                                the ingress nodes to the
                                                SR domain.”
                                                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">In addition
                                                to creating states at
                                                transit and egress
                                                nodes, the procedure
                                                also affects the data
                                                plane and makes it
                                                unscalable. It also
                                                makes controller job
                                                much harder and error
                                                prune. In summary, I
                                                find the procedure very
                                                complex and unscalable.
                                                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                                  Zafar
                                                  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div
                                              style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                              #B5C4DF
                                              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm
                                              0cm 0cm">
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">From:
                                                  </span></b><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">spring
                                                  &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                  on behalf of Greg
                                                  Mirsky &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                  <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                  November 15, 2017 at
                                                  11:10 AM<br>
                                                  <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                                  &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                  "<a
                                                    href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                                  &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                  "<a
                                                    href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                                  &lt;<a
                                                    href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                    target="_blank"
                                                    moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                  <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                  Special purpose labels
                                                  in
                                                  draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span lang="EN-US">
                                                  <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US">thank you for very well written
                                                    and thought through
                                                    draft. I have these
                                                    questions I'd like
                                                    to discuss:</span><span
                                                    lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <ul type="disc">
                                                  <li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                    level1 lfo3">
                                                    <span lang="EN-US">Have
                                                      you thought of
                                                      using not one
                                                      special purpose
                                                      label for both SR
                                                      Path Identifier
                                                      and SR Path
                                                      Identifier+Source
                                                      SID cases but
                                                      request two
                                                      special purpose
                                                      labels, one for
                                                      each case. Then
                                                      the SR Path
                                                      Identifier would
                                                      not have to lose
                                                      the bit for C
                                                      flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                  <li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                    level1 lfo3">
                                                    <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                      how you envision
                                                      to collect the
                                                      counters along the
                                                      path? Of course, a
                                                      Controller may
                                                      query LSR for all
                                                      counters or
                                                      counters for the
                                                      particular flow
                                                      (SR Path
                                                      Identifier+Source
                                                      SID). But in
                                                      addition I'd
                                                      propose to use
                                                      in-band mechanism,
                                                      perhaps another
                                                      special purpose
                                                      label, to trigger
                                                      the LSR to send
                                                      counters of the
                                                      same flow with the
                                                      timestamp out-band
                                                      to the predefined
                                                      Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                  <li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                    level1 lfo3">
                                                    <span lang="EN-US">And
                                                      the last, have you
                                                      considered ability
                                                      to flush counters
                                                      per flow. In
                                                      Scalability
                                                      Considerations
                                                      you've stated that
                                                      counters are
                                                      maintained as long
                                                      as collection of
                                                      statistics is
                                                      enabled. If that
                                                      is on the node
                                                      scope, you may
                                                      have to turn
                                                      off/on the
                                                      collection to
                                                      flush off some old
                                                      counters. I think
                                                      that finer
                                                      granularity, per
                                                      flow granularity
                                                      would be useful
                                                      for operators.
                                                      Again, perhaps the
                                                      flow itself may be
                                                      used to signal the
                                                      end of the
                                                      measurement and
                                                      trigger release of
                                                      counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                </ul>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                    style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                      lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
___________________________________________________________________________<br>
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                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                          lang="EN-US"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <pre><span lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="EN-US">pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
              <pre><span lang="EN-US">a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:宋体"
                lang="EN-US"><br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US">mpls mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
            <pre><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:宋体" lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        </div>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Stewart,

Cariden Mate based on the topology and netflow computes accurate live
trafic matrix from src to dst and includes transit points for years.

It even estimates load upon failure of a node or a link.

The entire discussion here clearly does not consider or is just not aware
about tools available for a long time for IP and LDP networks capacity
planning.

And when we rolled out RSVP-TE 17 years back Cariden proved that their
accuracy of adjusting the IGP metric to wisely distribute the traffic
across domain is almost as good (95% if I recall correctly) as entire
RSVP-TE machinery.

Ref:

https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=3Dt&source=3Dweb&rct=3Dj&url=3Dhttp://ripe=
61.ripe.net/presentations/156-ripe61-bcp-planning-and-te.pdf&ved=3D0ahUKEwj=
F59nKtsXXAhUGKY8KHZpPB9gQFggnMAE&usg=3DAOvVaw3QvoSRcs1lFFrj1LEylTft

So before we load set of new requirements on forwarding plane please let's
at least be aware on what is possible today without those new hardware
extensions.

Many thx,
Robert.


On Nov 17, 2017 13:56, "Stewart Bryant" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:



On 17 Nov 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Folks,

LDP LSPs follow pure dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet
takes is well known.

Yes but ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr
stack to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better
traffic spread.

What is there to record at each transit router hop other then what you
already have today from basic netflow counters ?


The traffic source.

Stewart



Thx
R.

On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, "Mach Chen" <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Stewart,
>
>
>
> Indeed, the same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, th=
e
> requirements that I heard are from MPLS-SR.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM
> *To:* Mach Chen; stephane.litkowski@orange.com; Robert Raszuk; Alexander
> Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general
> MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used,
> that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understa=
nd
> to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>
> Hi Stephane,
>
>
>
> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The
> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>
>
>
> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be
> local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
> path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the
> stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or no=
t.
> With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mach
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-account=
ing-for-sr-paths;
> Michael Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali
> (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSP=
s,
> so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an
> operational point of  view, what we do today is that we collect netflow
> statistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing
> with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic including
> the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
>
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states
> on every node.
>
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes,
> where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rath=
er
> prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlation=
s
> or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6
>
> IMO, that=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve get=
ting that we do not have
> this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
>
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what
> Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
> cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being
> sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential
> use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this
> mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
> another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow there will be a
> third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). That starts to be a big =
overhead
> for the forwarding plane.
>
>
>
> Brgds,
>
>
>
> Stephane
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky;
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accoun=
ting-for-sr-paths;
> Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that all
> what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress nodes.
>
>
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to measure
> per path in transit nodes.
>
>
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can do
> it with RSVP-TE.
>
>
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
>
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and fix
> basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in transit
> nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other w=
ay
> around.
>
>
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" <
> Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let=E2=80=99s first  of all agree that abili=
ty to
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a
> require OAM function for SR.
>
>
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_=
text=3D1>
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired
> implementation report
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-rep=
ort-00>
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in any
> case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end (one-way or
> two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.
>
>
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell:      +972-549266302 <+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com
>
>
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>; spring <
> spring@ietf.org>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that lacks
> critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the network.
> True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even th=
ey
> will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their
> operational needs. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and
> why ability to quantify the flow behavior at internal nodes is important
> for efficient network operation. First let's discuss whether the case and
> requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to
> discussion of what measurement method to use.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from my poin=
t
> of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence we
> would have to make some compromise.
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E Xuxiaohu
> M=EF=BC=9A+86-13910161692
> E=EF=BC=9Axuxiaohu@huawei.com
> =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88-=E7=BD=91=
=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=
=83=A8
> Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Zafar Ali (zali)
>
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A* Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com>=
;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
> ounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-
> for-sr-paths@ietf.org>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org>;spring<spring@ietf.org>
>
> *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose label=
s in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> *=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A* 2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
> abstract of SR Architecture document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr
> aft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13, which states:
>
> =E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
> maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
>
> In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the procedure
> also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It also makes
> controller job much harder and error prune. In summary, I find the
> procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
> *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "
> mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Shraddha,
>
> thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these
> questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>    - Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for both SR
>    Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but request tw=
o
>    special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Identifier
>    would not have to lose the bit for C flag.
>    - And how you envision to collect the counters along the path? Of
>    course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters for th=
e
>    particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I'd
>    propose to use in-band mechanism, perhaps another special purpose labe=
l, to
>    trigger the LSR to send counters of the same flow with the timestamp
>    out-band to the predefined Collector.
>    - And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters per
>    flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that counters are
>    maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that is =
on
>    the node scope, you may have to turn off/on the collection to flush of=
f
>    some old counters. I think that finer granularity, per flow granularit=
y
>    would be useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be u=
sed
>    to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> _______________
>
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Stewart,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto=
">Cariden Mate based on the topology and netflow computes accurate live tra=
fic matrix from src to dst and includes transit points for years.</div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It even estimates load upon failu=
re of a node or a link.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
The entire discussion here clearly does not consider or is just not aware a=
bout tools available for a long time for IP and LDP networks capacity plann=
ing.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And when we rolled =
out RSVP-TE 17 years back Cariden proved that their accuracy of adjusting t=
he IGP metric to wisely distribute the traffic across domain is almost as g=
ood (95% if I recall correctly) as entire RSVP-TE machinery.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Ref:=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><a href=3D"https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=3Dt&am=
p;source=3Dweb&amp;rct=3Dj&amp;url=3Dhttp://ripe61.ripe.net/presentations/1=
56-ripe61-bcp-planning-and-te.pdf&amp;ved=3D0ahUKEwjF59nKtsXXAhUGKY8KHZpPB9=
gQFggnMAE&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3QvoSRcs1lFFrj1LEylTft">https://www.google.com.sg=
/url?sa=3Dt&amp;source=3Dweb&amp;rct=3Dj&amp;url=3Dhttp://ripe61.ripe.net/p=
resentations/156-ripe61-bcp-planning-and-te.pdf&amp;ved=3D0ahUKEwjF59nKtsXX=
AhUGKY8KHZpPB9gQFggnMAE&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3QvoSRcs1lFFrj1LEylTft</a></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So before we load set of new req=
uirements on forwarding plane please let&#39;s at least be aware on what is=
 possible today without those new hardware extensions.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Many thx,</div><div dir=3D"auto">Robert.</di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, =
2017 13:56, &quot;Stewart Bryant&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant=
@gmail.com">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"=
><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"quoted-text"><div=
></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 17 Nov 2017, at 11:26 am, Robert Raszuk &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">Folks,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">LDP LSPs follow pure=
 dst based IGP SPT. So for each ip dst the path packet takes is well known.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>Yes b=
ut ... it is subjected to ecmp and just as you may wish to tune the sr stac=
k to avoid a hotspot, so you might wish to tune the EL to get a better traf=
fic spread.</div><div class=3D"quoted-text"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">What is there to record at each tra=
nsit router hop other then what you already have today from basic netflow c=
ounters ?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div></div><div>The tra=
ffic source.</div><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Stewart</div>=
</font><div class=3D"elided-text"><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Th=
x</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 17, 2017 04:18, &quot;Mach Chen&quot; &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mach.chen@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">mach.chen@huawei.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-356306197941050220m_-4059884648803605259WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stewart=
,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Indeed, th=
e same idea can apply to both MPLS-SR and MPLS-LDP. For now, the requiremen=
ts that I heard are from MPLS-SR.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:=
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext"> Stewart Bryant [mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">stewart.b=
ryant@gmail.c<wbr>om</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 17, 2017 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mach Chen; <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a>; Robert Raszuk; Alexander V=
ainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<=
wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf=
-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-spring-oam-useca=
se@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
<br>
Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for MPLS-LDP=
 as well?<br>
<br>
If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a general M=
PLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
<br>
At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
<br>
Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are used, th=
at only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I understand t=
o be the original goal.
<br>
<br>
- Stewart<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen =
wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi Stephan=
e,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you wan=
t to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The difference is h=
ow large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">For E2E me=
asurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could be local or globa=
l) is inserted immediately follow the last label of the SR
 path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be put into the =
stack at the beginning, no matter whether the measurement is enable or not.=
 With this, it will not affect the entropy.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Best regar=
ds,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Mach</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com" target=
=3D"_blank">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<=
wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Michael Gorokhovsky;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Yes today =
we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths statistics for LD=
P (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs,
 so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. From an opera=
tional point of=C2=A0 view, what we do today is that we collect netflow sta=
tistics on core routers, we project the label stack onto the routing with a=
n external tool to get the Ingress to
 Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Now for RS=
VP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has states on every no=
de.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Robert men=
tioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE=
 features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
 adding too much complexity).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Thus, is i=
t a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we a=
ccept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather
 prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that can do correlations=
 or whatever operations rather than getting it in the forwarding plane=E2=
=80=A6</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">IMO, that=
=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cnice to have=E2=80=9D problem to solve getting that w=
e do not have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">However, I=
ngress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The main d=
rawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics what Entropy lab=
el does with a solution which is similar and at the same time
 cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far from being suf=
ficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking for potential use c=
ase optimizations). So in a network running entropy label and this mechanis=
m, a router will need to find the
 ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe=
 tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one=E2=80=A6). =
That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Brgds,</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Stephane</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> mpls [<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
<b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; <a href=3D=
"mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@<wbr>ietf.org</a>; draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Folks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This thread started and the req=
uirements reported clearly stated that all what we need is the ability to a=
ccount per path traffic on egress nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Now out of the sudden I see req=
uirement popping up to be able to measure per path in transit nodes.<u></u>=
<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Well you can do it today with S=
Rv6 if your hardware allows or you can do it with RSVP-TE.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and ad=
ds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS never intended to become connection =
oriented protocol nor architecture.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So I recommend we take a step b=
ack here. Or if you like first go and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per =
end to end path accounting in transit nodes then come back here to ask for =
the same in SR-MPLS. Not the other way
 around.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thx<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">r.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, &quot;Al=
exander Vainshtein&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.<wbr>com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Greg,</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I concur w=
ith your position: let=E2=80=99s first =C2=A0of all agree that ability to m=
easure traffic
 carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is a require OAM functi=
on for SR.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have loo=
ked up the
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?=
include_text=3D1" target=3D"_blank">
SR OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there=
. </span>
<span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The only t=
ime measurements are mentioned is a reference to an
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementa=
tion-report-00" target=3D"_blank">
expired implementation report</a> draft discussing delay measurements.=C2=
=A0 Since delay measurements are in any case based on synthetic traffic, an=
d are always end-to-end (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevan=
t, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I have add=
ed the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Regards,</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Sasha</spa=
n><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Office:
<a href=3D"tel:+972%203-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-39266302</a></span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Cell:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"tel:+972%2054-926-6302" target=3D"_blank">+972-549266302</a></sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Email:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com" target=3D"_blank">Alexa=
nder.Vainshtein@ecitele.c<wbr>om</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</sp=
an><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&=
quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 mpls [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mp=
ls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@i=
etf.org</a><wbr>&gt;; spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">z=
ali@cisco.com</a>&gt;; mpls &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I cannot imagine that operators=
 will agree to deploy network that lacks critical OAM tools to monitor perf=
ormance and troubleshoot the network. True, some will
 brave the challenge and be the early adopters but even they will likely re=
quest that the OAM toolbox be sufficient to support their operational needs=
. I see that this work clearly describes the problem and why ability to qua=
ntify the flow behavior at internal
 nodes is important for efficient network operation. First let&#39;s discus=
s whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and valid. Then we c=
an continue to discussion of what measurement method to use.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 A=
M, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">xu=
xiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
Concur. Although it has some values, it&#39;s not cost-efficient from my po=
int of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority object. Hence =
we would have to make
 some compromise.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Xiaohu <br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"> Xuxiaohu<br>
M</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"tel:+86-13910161692" target=3D"_blank">+86-1=
3910161692</a>
<br>
E</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=EF=BC=9A</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank=
">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E4=
=B8=8E=E8=A7=A3=E5=86=B3=E6=96=B9=E6=A1=88</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">-</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E7=BD=91</span><span =
style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E7=BB=9C=E6=88=98=E7=95=A5=E4=B8=
=8E=E4=B8=9A=E5=8A=A1=E5=8F=91=E5=B1=95=E9=83=A8</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
><br>
Products &amp; Solutions-Network Strategy &amp; Business Development Dept<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:6.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm" name=3D"AnyOffice-Background-Image">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E5=8F=
=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Zafar Ali (zali)=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E6=
=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Greg Mirsky&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;;<wbr>draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-heg<wbr>de-spring-traffic-accounting-<wbr>for=
-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mp<wbr>ls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@<wbr>ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span lang=3D=
"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E4=
=B8=BB</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93">=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"=
>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">Re: [mpls] [spri=
ng] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-fo=
r-sr-paths</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=E6=97=
=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">2017-11-16 02:24=
:10</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"line-height:15.0pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This draft breaks the SR archit=
ecture. I am quoting a snippet from abstract of SR Architecture document
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr<wbr>aft-ietf-spring-segment-routin<wbr>g-13<=
/a>, which states:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=E2=80=9CSR allows to enforce a=
 flow through any topological path while maintaining per-flow state only at=
 the ingress nodes to the SR domain.=E2=80=9D
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to creating states =
at transit and egress nodes, the procedure also affects the data plane and =
makes it unscalable. It also makes controller job much
 harder and error prune. In summary, I find the procedure very complex and =
unscalable.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US">spring &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">g=
regimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-fo=
r-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>co=
unting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:draft-heg=
de-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft=
-hegde-spring-traffic-ac<wbr>counting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a><wbr>&gt;,
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Shraddha,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">than=
k you for very well written and thought through draft. I have these questio=
ns I&#39;d like to discuss:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Have you thought of using not one special purpose labe=
l for both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID cases but r=
equest two special purpose labels, one for each case. Then the SR Path Iden=
tifier would not have to lose the
 bit for C flag.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And how you envision to collect the counters along the=
 path? Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or counters f=
or the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source SID). But in addition I&#=
39;d propose to use in-band mechanism,
 perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to send counters=
 of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to the predefined Collector.<=
u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">And the last, have you considered ability to flush cou=
nters per flow. In Scalability Considerations you&#39;ve stated that counte=
rs are maintained as long as collection of statistics is enabled. If that i=
s on the node scope, you may have to turn
 off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think that finer g=
ranularity, per flow granularity would be useful for operators. Again, perh=
aps the flow itself may be used to signal the end of the measurement and tr=
igger release of counters.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Greg<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
______________________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>_____=
__________<br>
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This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
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__________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
________________<wbr>______________________________<wbr>___________________=
___________<wbr>_<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir=
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on,<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
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 a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">______________________________<wbr>______________=
___<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US">mpls mailing list<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">mpls@ietf.org</a><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/mpls</a>=
<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c1b4fe89cbadf055e2bcebd--


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To: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <AM4PR03MB171328C37B726DE4AFF862D39D2E0@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CA+b+ERkYZpdGS90VBH202yXbDeaEcyHk3UWNW+NUKS-WrkHAOg@mail.gmail.com> <25654_1510829327_5A0D6D0F_25654_230_1_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF921EABF115@OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
From: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
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Subject: [mpls] measurement requirements (was Re: [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
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Hi,

first thank you Shraddha for bringing the topic of traffic measurement 
to the lists.
And thanks to Stephane for focusing on the - from my point of view - 
most important aspects.

Apparently you can have different requirement for traffic measurement 
and based on those you'll need more or less complex solutions. And then 
you can often place different degree of complexity and different points.

While I don't know everybody's measurement requirements I can name those 
from an operator of a large multi protocol backbone that bears many 
different services on a global scale. Tools for network simulation and 
optimization like those mentioned by Robert - but not limited to that 
particular tool - appear to have the same basic requirement:

  - On a given topology, which can be the whole MPLS cloud, or as well a 
"core" like subtopology, you need an end-to-end traffic matrix in order 
to be able to simulate the exact traffic distribution to that topology 
and for possible changes, be it network remodeling or traffic 
engineering optimizations.

  - At least for our network the design goal was always to keep 
complexity for the forwarding nodes as low as possible. Neccessary 
complexity should better be moved to external tools that do the traffic 
matric calculation and network simulation. Even though we always had a 
strong focus on traffic measurement we never wanted to change the actual 
forwarding just for the sake of measurement.

What this really means is that we don't need to measure every single 
path an every node. Thus the current proposal is quite over-engineered 
for our purpose (and probably overly complex).

If we look at current MPLS-LDP networks, contemporary devices have 
enough means for ende-to-end traffic matrix measurements. Regardless of 
whether they are called "MPLS counters" or "LDP traffic statistics": 
there are per-FEC counters and they are well-suited, when taken from 
alle involved routers, to exactly get the traffic matrix. And there are 
usually counters at head ends of traffic enigneering tunnels of any 
kind, so that you always can verify the effect of related traffic 
engineering measures.

Per-FEC counters do not require additinal state in routers. They merely 
require a counter for every FIB entry they need to have anyways.

Do we need a requirements document to get the same for SR?

Other ideas for getting the traffic matrix are welcome, just please 
don't add more complexity on the forwarding machinery, e.g. don't add 
more labels than really needed.

Best regards, Martin


Am 16.11.17 um 11:48 schrieb stephane.litkowski@orange.com:
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label stack 
> onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to Egress 
> LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>
> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
> states on every node.
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) 
> has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE 
> without adding too much complexity).
>
> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
> the forwarding plane…
>
> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>
> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>
> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running entropy 
> label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the ELI/EL and 
> hash, then find another special label to build the stats (maybe 
> tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…). That 
> starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>
> Brgds,
>
> Stephane
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Folks,
>
> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
> nodes.
>
> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
> measure per path in transit nodes.
>
> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
> do it with RSVP-TE.
>
> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>
> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
> the other way around.
>
> Thx
>
> r.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability to 
> measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node is 
> a require OAM function for SR.
>
> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>
> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
> implementation report 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
> discussion.
>
> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sasha
>
> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>
> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>
> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>
> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
> Dear All,
>
> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early adopters 
> but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be sufficient 
> to support their operational needs. I see that this work clearly 
> describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow behavior at 
> internal nodes is important for efficient network operation. First 
> let's discuss whether the case and requirement towards OAM is real and 
> valid. Then we can continue to discussion of what measurement method 
> to use.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Xiaohu
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     徐小虎 Xuxiaohu
>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>
>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>
>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>
>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>
>     Hi,
>
>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet from
>     abstract of SR Architecture document
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>     which states:
>
>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>     domain.”
>
>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In summary,
>     I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Regards … Zafar
>
>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>     *To: *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>     Hi Shraddha,
>
>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>
>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>         bit for C flag.
>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>         the predefined Collector.
>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics is
>         enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to turn
>         off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I think
>         that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be useful
>         for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be used to
>         signal the end of the measurement and trigger release of counters.
>
>     Regards,
>
>     Greg
>
>
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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <AM4PR03MB171328C37B726DE4AFF862D39D2E0@AM4PR03MB1713.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com> <CA+b+ERkYZpdGS90VBH202yXbDeaEcyHk3UWNW+NUKS-WrkHAOg@mail.gmail.com> <25654_1510829327_5A0D6D0F_25654_230_1_9E32478DFA9976438E7A22F69B08FF921EABF115@OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2922B1DEF@dggeml510-mbs.china.huawei.com> <d36c2887-3722-b9ab-76fa-aecca77f0018@gmail.com>
From: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Stewart,

a quick comment on this, from an operator's point of view: Yes, we do 
need the same measurements for LDP as well as for SR.

The exact kind of counter may be debatable. From what we have now, 
per-FEC counters (per-SID for SR) on every node seem like the best 
practical and existing solution.

Best regards, Martin


Am 17.11.17 um 03:45 schrieb Stewart Bryant:
>
> I would like to ask a fundamental question here.
>
> Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for 
> MPLS-LDP as well?
>
> If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a 
> general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.
>
> At least some of the methods described here would work for both.
>
> Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are 
> used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot which I 
> understand to be the original goal.
>
> - Stewart
>
> On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:
>>
>> Hi Stephane,
>>
>> If you want to do transit measurement, you have to pay some cost. The 
>> difference is how large the cost is, one, two or multiple labels.
>>
>> For E2E measurement, it could be much easier. A single label (could 
>> be local or global) is inserted immediately follow the last label of 
>> the SR path. Since there is only one label, the path label could be 
>> put into the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the 
>> measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not affect the entropy.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mach
>>
>> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
>> *stephane.litkowski@orange.com
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM
>> *To:* Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein
>> *Cc:* mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils; 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Michael 
>> Gorokhovsky; draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Yes today we do not have any CLI command on any router to get paths 
>> statistics for LDP (I mean Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P 
>> LSPs, so a transit node does not have the knowledge of the source. 
>> From an operational point of  view, what we do today is that we 
>> collect netflow statistics on core routers, we project the label 
>> stack onto the routing with an external tool to get the Ingress to 
>> Egress LDP traffic including the mapping of the flows on the links.
>>
>> Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as the LSP is P2P and has 
>> states on every node.
>>
>> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS 
>> dataplane) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP 
>> does in SRTE without adding too much complexity).
>>
>> Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats) worth to be solved ? If 
>> yes, where do we accept to put the complexity ? For a stats issue I 
>> would rather prefer to move the complexity to an external tool that 
>> can do correlations or whatever operations rather than getting it in 
>> the forwarding plane…
>>
>> IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to solve getting that we do not 
>> have this for LDP and we know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.
>>
>> However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for sure mandatory to get !
>>
>> The main drawback I see with the proposed solution is that it mimics 
>> what Entropy label does with a solution which is similar and at the 
>> same time cannot replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far 
>> from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but I was looking 
>> for potential use case optimizations). So in a network running 
>> entropy label and this mechanism, a router will need to find the 
>> ELI/EL and hash, then find another special label to build the stats 
>> (maybe tomorrow there will be a third one to look at and a fourth 
>> one…). That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding plane.
>>
>> Brgds,
>>
>> Stephane
>>
>> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23
>> *To:* Alexander Vainshtein
>> *Cc:* spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael Gorokhovsky; 
>> draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>; 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths; Zafar Ali (zali)
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> This thread started and the requirements reported clearly stated that 
>> all what we need is the ability to account per path traffic on egress 
>> nodes.
>>
>> Now out of the sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to 
>> measure per path in transit nodes.
>>
>> Well you can do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or you can 
>> do it with RSVP-TE.
>>
>> SR-MPLS is replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But SR-MPLS 
>> never intended to become connection oriented protocol nor architecture.
>>
>> So I recommend we take a step back here. Or if you like first go and 
>> fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to end path accounting in 
>> transit nodes then come back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not 
>> the other way around.
>>
>> Thx
>>
>> r.
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" 
>> <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
>> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> I concur with your position: let’s first  of all agree that ability 
>> to measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a specific transit node 
>> is a require OAM function for SR.
>>
>> I have looked up the SR OAM Use Cases 
>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1> 
>> draft, and I did not find any relevant use cases there.
>>
>> The only time measurements are mentioned is a reference to an expired 
>> implementation report 
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00> 
>> draft discussing delay measurements.  Since delay measurements are in 
>> any case based on synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end 
>> (one-way or two-way), this reference is not relevant, IMHO, for this 
>> discussion.
>>
>> I have added the authors of the SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sasha
>>
>> Office: +972-39266302 <tel:+972%203-926-6302>
>>
>> Cell: +972-549266302 <tel:+972%2054-926-6302>
>>
>> Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com 
>> <mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
>>
>> *From:*mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:28 AM
>> *To:* Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>>
>> *Cc:* draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths 
>> <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>; 
>> spring <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; Zafar Ali (zali) 
>> <zali@cisco.com <mailto:zali@cisco.com>>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in 
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I cannot imagine that operators will agree to deploy network that 
>> lacks critical OAM tools to monitor performance and troubleshoot the 
>> network. True, some will brave the challenge and be the early 
>> adopters but even they will likely request that the OAM toolbox be 
>> sufficient to support their operational needs. I see that this work 
>> clearly describes the problem and why ability to quantify the flow 
>> behavior at internal nodes is important for efficient network 
>> operation. First let's discuss whether the case and requirement 
>> towards OAM is real and valid. Then we can continue to discussion of 
>> what measurement method to use.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com 
>> <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Concur. Although it has some values, it's not cost-efficient from
>>     my point of view. Network simplicity should be the first priority
>>     object. Hence we would have to make some compromise.
>>
>>     Best regards,
>>     Xiaohu
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     徐小虎Xuxiaohu
>>     M：+86-13910161692 <tel:+86-13910161692>
>>     E：xuxiaohu@huawei.com <mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
>>     产品与解决方案-网络战略与业务发展部
>>     Products & Solutions-Network Strategy & Business Development Dept
>>
>>     *发件人：***Zafar Ali (zali)
>>
>>     *收件人：***Greg Mirsky<gregimirsky@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>;mpls<mpls@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>;spring<spring@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>
>>     *主**题：***Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     *时间：***2017-11-16 02:24:10
>>
>>     Hi,
>>
>>     This draft breaks the SR architecture. I am quoting a snippet
>>     from abstract of SR Architecture document
>>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13,
>>     which states:
>>
>>     “SR allows to enforce a flow through any topological path while
>>     maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress nodes to the SR
>>     domain.”
>>
>>     In addition to creating states at transit and egress nodes, the
>>     procedure also affects the data plane and makes it unscalable. It
>>     also makes controller job much harder and error prune. In
>>     summary, I find the procedure very complex and unscalable.
>>
>>     Thanks
>>
>>     Regards … Zafar
>>
>>     *From: *spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky
>>     <gregimirsky@gmail.com <mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
>>     *Date: *Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:10 AM
>>     *To:
>>     *"draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>"
>>     <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>>,
>>     "mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>" <mpls@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>>, "spring@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:spring@ietf.org>" <spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>
>>     *Subject: *[spring] Special purpose labels in
>>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>>
>>     Hi Shraddha,
>>
>>     thank you for very well written and thought through draft. I have
>>     these questions I'd like to discuss:
>>
>>       * Have you thought of using not one special purpose label for
>>         both SR Path Identifier and SR Path Identifier+Source SID
>>         cases but request two special purpose labels, one for each
>>         case. Then the SR Path Identifier would not have to lose the
>>         bit for C flag.
>>       * And how you envision to collect the counters along the path?
>>         Of course, a Controller may query LSR for all counters or
>>         counters for the particular flow (SR Path Identifier+Source
>>         SID). But in addition I'd propose to use in-band mechanism,
>>         perhaps another special purpose label, to trigger the LSR to
>>         send counters of the same flow with the timestamp out-band to
>>         the predefined Collector.
>>       * And the last, have you considered ability to flush counters
>>         per flow. In Scalability Considerations you've stated that
>>         counters are maintained as long as collection of statistics
>>         is enabled. If that is on the node scope, you may have to
>>         turn off/on the collection to flush off some old counters. I
>>         think that finer granularity, per flow granularity would be
>>         useful for operators. Again, perhaps the flow itself may be
>>         used to signal the end of the measurement and trigger release
>>         of counters.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Greg
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________________________
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    Hi Stewart,<br>
    <br>
    a quick comment on this, from an operator's point of view: Yes, we
    do need the same measurements for LDP as well as for SR.<br>
    <br>
    The exact kind of counter may be debatable. From what we have now,
    per-FEC counters (per-SID for SR) on every node seem like the best
    practical and existing solution.<br>
    <br>
    Best regards, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 17.11.17 um 03:45 schrieb Stewart
      Bryant:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:d36c2887-3722-b9ab-76fa-aecca77f0018@gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <br>
      I would like to ask a fundamental question here.<br>
      <br>
      Do we need transit counters for only MPLS-SR, or do we need it for
      MPLS-LDP as well?<br>
      <br>
      If we need it for both, then we need to have this discussion in a
      general MPLS context and not in an MPLS-SR specific context.<br>
      <br>
      At least some of the methods described here would work for both.<br>
      <br>
      Also WRT the proposal to do ingress collection, if nodal paths are
      used, that only tells us the approximate path, not the hotspot
      which I understand to be the original goal. <br>
      <br>
      - Stewart<br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/11/2017 14:46, Mach Chen wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
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          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Hi Stephane,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">If you want to do transit measurement, you
              have to pay some cost. The difference is how large the
              cost is, one, two or multiple labels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">For E2E measurement, it could be much easier.
              A single label (could be local or global) is inserted
              immediately follow the last label of the SR path. Since
              there is only one label, the path label could be put into
              the stack at the beginning, no matter whether the
              measurement is enable or not. With this, it will not
              affect the entropy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US">Mach<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
              lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
            1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
            <div>
              <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                      lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                    lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b><a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:stephane.litkowski@orange.com"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a><br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:49 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Robert Raszuk; Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> mpls; spring; Clarence Filsfils;
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                    Michael Gorokhovsky; <a
                      class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                      href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                    Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                    labels in
                    draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Yes today we do not have any CLI command on
                any router to get paths statistics for LDP (I mean
                Ingress to Egress) as LDP is based on MP2P LSPs, so a
                transit node does not have the knowledge of the source.
                From an operational point of  view, what we do today is
                that we collect netflow statistics on core routers, we
                project the label stack onto the routing with an
                external tool to get the Ingress to Egress LDP traffic
                including the mapping of the flows on the links.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Now for RSVP, we do have such statistics as
                the LSP is P2P and has states on every node.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE
                (especially with MPLS dataplane) has limited TE features
                (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
                adding too much complexity).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Thus, is it a problem (transit node stats)
                worth to be solved ? If yes, where do we accept to put
                the complexity ? For a stats issue I would rather prefer
                to move the complexity to an external tool that can do
                correlations or whatever operations rather than getting
                it in the forwarding plane…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">IMO, that’s a “nice to have” problem to
                solve getting that we do not have this for LDP and we
                know the limitations of SR-TE MPLS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">However, Ingress stats per SRTE LSP are for
                sure mandatory to get ! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">The main drawback I see with the proposed
                solution is that it mimics what Entropy label does with
                a solution which is similar and at the same time cannot
                replace entropy label as the provided entropy is far
                from being sufficient (this is not the goal I know, but
                I was looking for potential use case optimizations). So
                in a network running entropy label and this mechanism, a
                router will need to find the ELI/EL and hash, then find
                another special label to build the stats (maybe tomorrow
                there will be a third one to look at and a fourth one…).
                That starts to be a big overhead for the forwarding
                plane. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Brgds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US">Stephane<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                  lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                lang="EN-US"> mpls [<a
                  href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Raszuk<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017 16:23<br>
                <b>To:</b> Alexander Vainshtein<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> spring; Clarence Filsfils; mpls; Michael
                Gorokhovsky; <a
                  href="mailto:draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">
                  draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org</a>;
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths;
                Zafar Ali (zali)<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose
                labels in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">This thread
                      started and the requirements reported clearly
                      stated that all what we need is the ability to
                      account per path traffic on egress nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Now out of the
                      sudden I see requirement popping up to be able to
                      measure per path in transit nodes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Well you can
                      do it today with SRv6 if your hardware allows or
                      you can do it with RSVP-TE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">SR-MPLS is
                      replacing LDP and adds ability for limited TE. But
                      SR-MPLS never intended to become connection
                      oriented protocol nor architecture.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So I recommend
                      we take a step back here. Or if you like first go
                      and fix basic MPLS LDP LSPs to allow per end to
                      end path accounting in transit nodes then come
                      back here to ask for the same in SR-MPLS. Not the
                      other way around.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thx<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">r.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Nov 16,
                        2017 16:12, "Alexander Vainshtein" &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Greg,</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I concur with your position:
                            let’s first  of all agree that ability to
                            measure traffic carried by an SR-TE LSP in a
                            specific transit node is a require OAM
                            function for SR.</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have looked up the <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase/?include_text=1"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"> SR
                              OAM Use Cases</a> draft, and I did not
                            find any relevant use cases there. </span>
                          <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">The only time measurements are
                            mentioned is a reference to an <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-leipnitz-spring-pms-implementation-report-00"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                              expired implementation report</a> draft
                            discussing delay measurements.  Since delay
                            measurements are in any case based on
                            synthetic traffic, and are always end-to-end
                            (one-way or two-way), this reference is not
                            relevant, IMHO, for this discussion.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">I have added the authors of the
                            SR OAM Use Cases draft to tis thread.</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Regards,</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Sasha</span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Office: <a
                              href="tel:+972%203-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-39266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Cell:      <a
                              href="tel:+972%2054-926-6302"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">+972-549266302</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US">Email:   <a
                              href="mailto:Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com</a></span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"
                            lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                              lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"
                            lang="EN-US"> mpls [mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                            <b>On Behalf Of </b>Greg Mirsky<br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 16, 2017
                            4:28 AM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Cc:</b>
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
                            &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            spring &lt;<a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
                            Zafar Ali (zali) &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:zali@cisco.com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;;
                            mpls &lt;<a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] [spring] Special
                            purpose labels in
                            draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                            lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US">Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">I cannot imagine that
                                  operators will agree to deploy network
                                  that lacks critical OAM tools to
                                  monitor performance and troubleshoot
                                  the network. True, some will brave the
                                  challenge and be the early adopters
                                  but even they will likely request that
                                  the OAM toolbox be sufficient to
                                  support their operational needs. I see
                                  that this work clearly describes the
                                  problem and why ability to quantify
                                  the flow behavior at internal nodes is
                                  important for efficient network
                                  operation. First let's discuss whether
                                  the case and requirement towards OAM
                                  is real and valid. Then we can
                                  continue to discussion of what
                                  measurement method to use.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                  lang="EN-US">On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at
                                  10:05 AM, Xuxiaohu &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:xuxiaohu@huawei.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">xuxiaohu@huawei.com</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                              <blockquote
                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                                        lang="EN-US">Concur. Although it
                                        has some values, it's not
                                        cost-efficient from my point of
                                        view. Network simplicity should
                                        be the first priority object.
                                        Hence we would have to make some
                                        compromise.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Best regards,<br>
                                        Xiaohu <br>
                                        <br>
                                        <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">发件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Zafar Ali (zali)</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">收件人：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Greg Mirsky&lt;<a
href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;;draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths&lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;;mpls&lt;<a
                                            href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                            target="_blank"
                                            moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;;spring&lt;<a
href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">主</span></b><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">题：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">Re: [mpls]
                                          [spring] Special purpose
                                          labels in
                                          draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Microsoft
                                            JhengHei&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">时间：</span></b><b><span
                                            style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><span
                                          style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                          lang="EN-US">2017-11-16
                                          02:24:10</span><span
                                          lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:15.0pt"><span
                                        style="font-size:10.5pt"
                                        lang="EN-US"> </span><span
                                        lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">Hi, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">This draft
                                              breaks the SR
                                              architecture. I am quoting
                                              a snippet from abstract of
                                              SR Architecture document <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13"
                                                target="_blank"
                                                moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-13</a>,
                                              which states:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">“SR allows to
                                              enforce a flow through any
                                              topological path while
                                              maintaining per-flow state
                                              only at the ingress nodes
                                              to the SR domain.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US">In addition
                                              to creating states at
                                              transit and egress nodes,
                                              the procedure also affects
                                              the data plane and makes
                                              it unscalable. It also
                                              makes controller job much
                                              harder and error prune. In
                                              summary, I find the
                                              procedure very complex and
                                              unscalable. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Regards …
                                                Zafar <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                                            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                              lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          <div
                                            style="border:none;border-top:solid
                                            #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
                                            0cm 0cm 0cm">
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
                                                  style="color:black"
                                                  lang="EN-US">From: </span></b><span
                                                style="color:black"
                                                lang="EN-US">spring &lt;<a
href="mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
                                                on behalf of Greg Mirsky
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Date: </b>Wednesday,
                                                November 15, 2017 at
                                                11:10 AM<br>
                                                <b>To: </b>"<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
href="mailto:draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
                                                "<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>"
                                                &lt;<a
                                                  href="mailto:spring@ietf.org"
                                                  target="_blank"
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
                                                <b>Subject: </b>[spring]
                                                Special purpose labels
                                                in
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                lang="EN-US">Hi </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Shraddha,</span><span
                                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">thank you for very
                                                  well written and
                                                  thought through draft.
                                                  I have these questions
                                                  I'd like to discuss:</span><span
                                                  lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <ul type="disc">
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Have
                                                    you thought of using
                                                    not one special
                                                    purpose label for
                                                    both SR Path
                                                    Identifier and SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID cases but
                                                    request two special
                                                    purpose labels, one
                                                    for each case. Then
                                                    the SR Path
                                                    Identifier would not
                                                    have to lose the bit
                                                    for C flag.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And how
                                                    you envision to
                                                    collect the counters
                                                    along the path? Of
                                                    course, a Controller
                                                    may query LSR for
                                                    all counters or
                                                    counters for the
                                                    particular flow (SR
                                                    Path
                                                    Identifier+Source
                                                    SID). But in
                                                    addition I'd propose
                                                    to use in-band
                                                    mechanism, perhaps
                                                    another special
                                                    purpose label, to
                                                    trigger the LSR to
                                                    send counters of the
                                                    same flow with the
                                                    timestamp out-band
                                                    to the predefined
                                                    Collector.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                                <li class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
                                                  level1 lfo3"> <span
                                                    lang="EN-US">And the
                                                    last, have you
                                                    considered ability
                                                    to flush counters
                                                    per flow. In
                                                    Scalability
                                                    Considerations
                                                    you've stated that
                                                    counters are
                                                    maintained as long
                                                    as collection of
                                                    statistics is
                                                    enabled. If that is
                                                    on the node scope,
                                                    you may have to turn
                                                    off/on the
                                                    collection to flush
                                                    off some old
                                                    counters. I think
                                                    that finer
                                                    granularity, per
                                                    flow granularity
                                                    would be useful for
                                                    operators. Again,
                                                    perhaps the flow
                                                    itself may be used
                                                    to signal the end of
                                                    the measurement and
                                                    trigger release of
                                                    counters.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
                                              </ul>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                    lang="EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div>
                                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                                  lang="EN-US">Greg<o:p></o:p></span></p>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
                                lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
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                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
                        lang="EN-US"><br>
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            <pre><span lang="EN-US">_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 06:12:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] measurement requirements (was Re: [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 06:33:49 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] measurement requirements (was Re: Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: "'spring'" <spring@ietf.org>, "'mpls'" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Thanks for helping me break my resolution to leave this thread alone :-(

>>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) =
that breaks SR
>>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.=20
>>
>> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions, =
above?=20
>
> Please note that in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:=20
>
> =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special label, read
>        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter against =
such
>        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.=20

Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of maintaining =
many counters and updating them at line speed.

Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accounting in =
networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match the packet that follows.=20

Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack and =
hashing on the header of the payload.

Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results from =
a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can't have all three.
That hardware can't perform transit accounting with fine granularity =
(although you have promised us a solution within the next four months).

> =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each =
segment in the SR
>        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x times! =
This is a=20
>        serious a scaling issue. =20

John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or =
misreading of our draft.=20
The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as John =
did, that this is our own term).=20
That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a =
pointer to the text.

Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case where =
the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label =
option is applied. So, while what you say is true, it is clearly (and =
wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  =
4-label stack is actually a problem.

> =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node =
capability and
>       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the =
controller
>       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes.=20

In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the =
capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label =
reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.

The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a =
small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to =
enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.=20
If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a small =
RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* =
means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network =
the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.

It seems to me that:
- Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a flag =
per node
   (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
- Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significant =
scaling issue.

Cheer,
Adrian


From nobody Sun Nov 19 09:59:57 2017
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From: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "rjs@rob.sh" <rjs@rob.sh>, "Siva Sivabalan (msiva)" <msiva@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 12:20:03 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/xjlyFAVF1D6qMAuCrDwNh-H4kYE>
Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-spring-entropy-label
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From: Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] RFC5036 and "exceeds" / "reaches" limits on send and receive
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Subject: Re: [mpls] RFC5036 and "exceeds" / "reaches" limits on send and receive
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] RFC5036 and "exceeds" / "reaches" limits on send and receive
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Subject: Re: [mpls] RFC5036 and "exceeds" / "reaches" limits on send and receive
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: "'spring'" <spring@ietf.org>, "'mpls'" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 23:36:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 23:40:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 16:03:53 -0800
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Zafar,
I don't see how managing, using passive OAM, i.e. counting fly-by packets,
at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equated to breaking "no-forwarding state
at transient LSR" model.I believe that practical is as important as
aesthetic and that network cannot be operated without comprehensive OAM
tool box. Of course, every tool in the box is optional and will not be
deployed unless the need arises. If we agree on that, perhaps we can
discuss new requirement to be added to the SR OAM Requirements document.
And then, then consider how to address such requirement. I believe that two
options were mentioned in the thread:

   - described in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
   special purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purpos=
e
   label) and up to two labels;
   - use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat similar to approach used in RFC
   8169).

Regards,
Greg


On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Adrian,
>
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
> follow-up on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be
> happy to have a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
> that breaks SR
>     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>     >>
>     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions,
> above?
>     >
>     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >
>     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the spe=
cial
> label, read
>     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
> against such
>     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>
> >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
> maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.
>
> >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accountin=
g
> in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
> match the packet that follows.
>
> >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack
> and hashing on the header of the payload.
>
> >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results
> from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally
> you can't have all three.
>
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
> operations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no stat=
es at the
> transit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, the
> draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93=
 thereby
> creating yet additional states in the network for accounting reasons (see
> more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed f=
or
> SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls for simplification of the network no=
t adding
> complexity in the network fabric. Please also note that a network may hav=
e
> a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling
> limitations.
>
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
> network. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
> proposed in the document; I am quoting from the draft.
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure all
>    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>
> <snip>
>
>     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each s=
egment in
> the SR
>     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
> times! This is a
>     >        serious a scaling issue.
>
> >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
> misreading of our draft.
> >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
> John did, that this is our own term).
> >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a
> pointer to the text.
>
> >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case
> where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label
> option is applied. So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and
> wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that
> 4-label stack is actually a problem.
>
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3
> labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios
> are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>
>   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  The
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stack
>    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>
>  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all th=
e
>    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document.
>    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>
> > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capabil=
ity and
>     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the
> controller
>     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes=
.
>
> >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the
> capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label
> reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.
>
> >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a
> small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to
> enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
> small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that*
> means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network
> the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.
>
> >    It seems to me that:
> >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
> flag per node
> >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significan=
t
> scaling issue.
>
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in the
> draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases
> every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from th=
e
> draft).
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in the
>    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MU=
ST
>    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>    support them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are remove=
d
>    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
>    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>
> In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
>    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of the
>    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=80=
=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing t=
he
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
>    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable of
>    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platform=
s do
>    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
>    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths are
>    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress software=
 need to also
> create/ install sub-paths.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>

--94eb2c1aa9b04879e5055e72f02a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Zafar,<div>I don&#39;t see how managing, using passive =
OAM, i.e. counting fly-by packets, at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equate=
d to breaking &quot;no-forwarding state at transient LSR&quot; model.I beli=
eve that practical is as important as aesthetic and that network cannot be =
operated without comprehensive OAM tool box. Of course, every tool in the b=
ox is optional and will not be deployed unless the need arises. If we agree=
 on that, perhaps we can discuss new requirement to be added to the SR OAM =
Requirements document. And then, then consider how to address such requirem=
ent. I believe that two options were mentioned in the thread:</div><div><ul=
><li>described in=C2=A0draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths s=
pecial purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purpose la=
bel) and up to two labels;</li><li>use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat simila=
r to approach used in RFC 8169).</li></ul><div>Regards,</div></div><div>Gre=
g</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
<br>
Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and follow-up=
 on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to hav=
e a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
<br>
On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>ac=
counting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated =
to implement.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to justify any o=
f your assertions, above?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs to be able=
 to recognize the special label, read<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identification la=
bel and update the counter against such<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable o=
f maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used fo=
r accounting in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stac=
k and then match the packet that follows.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bott=
om of stack and hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usual=
ly results from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. G=
enerally you can&#39;t have all three.<br>
<br>
</span>The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such op=
erations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states a=
t the transit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, =
the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=
=93 thereby creating yet additional states in the network for accounting re=
asons (see more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is d=
esigned for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls for simplification of the =
network not adding complexity in the network fabric. Please also note that =
a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dime=
nsion for scaling limitations.<br>
<br>
The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the networ=
k. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propose=
d in the document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in this document for traffic accounting and with nod=
e-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make s=
ure all<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to push (up to=
) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means that label s=
tack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling issue.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstandi=
ng or misreading of our draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (n=
oting as John did, that this is our own term).<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or=
 provide a pointer to the text.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies only w=
ith the single case where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *an=
d* the three label option is applied. So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true,=
 it is clearly (and wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it =
is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
<br>
</span>There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up =
to 3 labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenari=
os are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=C2=A0 The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the labe=
l stack<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this do=
cument.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on =
the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple bloc=
ks of SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=
=9D<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of transit n=
ode capability and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional per-path l=
abels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to maintain such in=
formation for the transit nodes.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care =
about the capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose=
 label reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is when =
there is a small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controll=
er to enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit node=
s with a small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and=
 *that* means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the ne=
twork the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: =
adding a flag per node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any scal=
ing behavior.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not=
 significant scaling issue.<br>
<br>
</span>The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for addi=
ng complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in th=
e draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases =
every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the =
draft).<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place=
 in the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack is decided based on whether the node where the special l=
abel<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do no=
t<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node im=
posing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capabl=
e of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path=
-Stats<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC)=
 of the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bott=
om of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels S=
HOULD be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be fo=
und at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is cap=
able of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware platf=
orms do<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a=
 large<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitation s=
ub-paths are<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to =
these<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress =
software need to also create/ install sub-paths.<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c1aa9b04879e5055e72f02a--


From nobody Mon Nov 20 17:31:29 2017
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From: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
To: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: The link to draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction is unavaiable
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 01:31:08 +0000
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Subject: [mpls] The link to draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction is unavaiable
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Hi co-chairs,

I just noticed that draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction has be=
en moved to Working Group Documents list. However the link is unavailable. =
Would you please fix the problem?

Best regards,
Xiaohu


From nobody Mon Nov 20 18:19:34 2017
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] The link to draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction is unavaiable
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Xiaohu,

I just tried to open the documen from the wg page, it workw just fine.
Can you check again?

/Loa

On 2017-11-21 09:31, Xuxiaohu wrote:
> Hi co-chairs,
> 
> I just noticed that draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction has been moved to Working Group Documents list. However the link is unavailable. Would you please fix the problem?
> 
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
> 

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


From nobody Mon Nov 20 18:36:59 2017
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From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org" <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>
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Subject: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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Working Group, authors,

We have started to prepare the the draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-
framework for working group adoption, prior to the wgap we need to do
an IPR poll.

This mail starts this IPR poll.

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-shen-mpls-egress-
protection-framework?

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

There one IPR disclosures against draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-
framework.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to
this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant
IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The
document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been
received from each author and contributor.

If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or
contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any
IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.


/Loa
  mpls wg co-chair

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


From nobody Mon Nov 20 19:07:23 2017
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 03:06:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 19:53:20 -0800
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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/Jv2zj4FdcfMiqDnmLZi2iwzXWwU>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Zafar,
"overloading existing special label"? AFAIK, MPLS WG created Extended
Special Label exactly for cases like we're discussing.
Of course, alternative proposal for SR-MPLS use case will be most helpful.
As description of GAL-ACH based proposal. Stay tuned.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 7:06 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Overloading existing special label, optimizing stack overheads in
> draft-hegde, etc. will not change the architectural direction of the
> proposal.
>
>
>
> I feel additional discussion on this thread will be non-productive. Marti=
n
> Horneffer, Robert Raszuk, Stephane Litkowski and others have shared from
> their operation experiences; their input cannot be ignored by the vendors=
.
> They and others have outlined some alternatives. We need to follow-up on
> additional documentation (on the alternatives including existing counters=
)
> to help us converge. Please stay tuned.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, November 20, 2017 at 7:03 PM
> *To: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
> *Cc: *"adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mpls@ietf.org" <
> mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>
>
>
> Hi Zafar,
>
> I don't see how managing, using passive OAM, i.e. counting fly-by packets=
,
> at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equated to breaking "no-forwarding stat=
e
> at transient LSR" model.I believe that practical is as important as
> aesthetic and that network cannot be operated without comprehensive OAM
> tool box. Of course, every tool in the box is optional and will not be
> deployed unless the need arises. If we agree on that, perhaps we can
> discuss new requirement to be added to the SR OAM Requirements document.
> And then, then consider how to address such requirement. I believe that t=
wo
> options were mentioned in the thread:
>
>    - described in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
>    special purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purp=
ose
>    label) and up to two labels;
>    - use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat similar to approach used in RFC
>    8169).
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
> follow-up on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be
> happy to have a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths)
> that breaks SR
>     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>     >>
>     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions,
> above?
>     >
>     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >
>     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the spe=
cial
> label, read
>     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
> against such
>     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>
> >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
> maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.
>
> >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accountin=
g
> in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
> match the packet that follows.
>
> >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack
> and hashing on the header of the payload.
>
> >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results
> from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally
> you can't have all three.
>
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
> operations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no stat=
es at the
> transit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, the
> draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93=
 thereby
> creating yet additional states in the network for accounting reasons (see
> more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed f=
or
> SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls for simplification of the network no=
t adding
> complexity in the network fabric. Please also note that a network may hav=
e
> a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling
> limitations.
>
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
> network. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
> proposed in the document; I am quoting from the draft.
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure all
>    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>
> <snip>
>
>     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each s=
egment in
> the SR
>     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
> times! This is a
>     >        serious a scaling issue.
>
> >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
> misreading of our draft.
> >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
> John did, that this is our own term).
> >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a
> pointer to the text.
>
> >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case
> where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label
> option is applied. So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and
> wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that
> 4-label stack is actually a problem.
>
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3
> labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios
> are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>
>   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  The
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stack
>    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>
>  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all th=
e
>    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document.
>    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>
> > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capabil=
ity and
>     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the
> controller
>     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes=
.
>
> >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the
> capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label
> reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.
>
> >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a
> small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to
> enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
> small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that*
> means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network
> the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.
>
> >    It seems to me that:
> >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
> flag per node
> >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significan=
t
> scaling issue.
>
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in the
> draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases
> every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from th=
e
> draft).
>
> =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in the
>    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MU=
ST
>    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>    support them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are remove=
d
>    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
>    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>
> In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
>    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of the
>    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=80=
=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>
> =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing t=
he
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
>    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable of
>    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>
> =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platform=
s do
>    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
>    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths are
>    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress software=
 need to also
> create/ install sub-paths.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Zafar,<div>&quot;overloading existing special label&quo=
t;? AFAIK, MPLS WG created Extended Special Label exactly for cases like we=
&#39;re discussing.</div><div>Of course, alternative proposal for SR-MPLS u=
se case will be most helpful. As description of GAL-ACH based proposal. Sta=
y tuned.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at=
 7:06 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cis=
co.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8827683343826013304WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Greg, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Overloading existing special label, optimizing stack=
 overheads in draft-hegde, etc. will not change the architectural direction=
 of the proposal.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I feel additional discussion on this thread will be =
non-productive. Martin Horneffer, Robert Raszuk, Stephane Litkowski and oth=
ers have shared from their operation experiences; their input cannot be ign=
ored by the vendors. They and others
 have outlined some alternatives. We need to follow-up on additional docume=
ntation (on the alternatives including existing counters) to help us conver=
ge. Please stay tuned.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Greg Mirsky &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, November 20, 2017 at 7:03 PM<span class=3D""><br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Zafar Ali (zali)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
</span><b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_b=
lank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.=
uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:=
mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;, spring &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>&gt;<sp=
an class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-s=
pring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Zafar, <u></u><u></u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t see how managing, using passive OAM, i.e=
. counting fly-by packets, at transient SR-MPLS nodes can be equated to bre=
aking &quot;no-forwarding state at transient LSR&quot; model.I believe that=
 practical is as important as aesthetic and that
 network cannot be operated without comprehensive OAM tool box. Of course, =
every tool in the box is optional and will not be deployed unless the need =
arises. If we agree on that, perhaps we can discuss new requirement to be a=
dded to the SR OAM Requirements
 document. And then, then consider how to address such requirement. I belie=
ve that two options were mentioned in the thread:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0in">
described in=C2=A0draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths s=
pecial purpose label (actually it may end up be extended special purpose la=
bel) and up to two labels;<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-left:0in">
use GAL and ACH (perhaps somewhat similar to approach used in RFC 8169).<u>=
</u><u></u></li></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Zafar Ali (zali) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Adrian,<br>
<br>
Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
<br>
Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and follow-up=
 on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to hav=
e a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
<br>
On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adria=
n@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>ac=
counting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated =
to implement.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to justify any o=
f your assertions, above?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>acco=
unting-for-sr-paths:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs to be able=
 to recognize the special label, read<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identification la=
bel and update the counter against such<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable o=
f maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used fo=
r accounting in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stac=
k and then match the packet that follows.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bott=
om of stack and hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usual=
ly results from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. G=
enerally you can&#39;t have all three.<br>
<br>
The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such operation=
s but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the t=
ransit/ egress nodes. In the context of label stack size explosion, the dra=
ft also talks about needs to break an SR
 Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additional states in th=
e network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the following)=
. Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture calls=
 for simplification of the network not adding complexity
 in the network fabric. Please also note that a network may have a large nu=
mber of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling limitations=
.<br>
<br>
The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the networ=
k. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propose=
d in the document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0described in this document for traffic accounting and with nod=
e-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make s=
ure all<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to push (up to=
) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means that label s=
tack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling issue.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstandi=
ng or misreading of our draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (n=
oting as John did, that this is our own term).<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or=
 provide a pointer to the text.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies only w=
ith the single case where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *an=
d* the three label option is applied. So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true,=
 it is clearly (and wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of
 impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is actually a problem.=
<br>
<br>
There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 la=
bels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are =
not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=C2=A0 The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the labe=
l stack<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this do=
cument.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on =
the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple bloc=
ks of SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=
=9D<br>
<br>
&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of transit n=
ode capability and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional per-path l=
abels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to maintain such in=
formation for the transit nodes.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care =
about the capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose=
 label reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is when =
there is a small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controll=
er to enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit node=
s with a small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and=
 *that* means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the ne=
twork the special purpose label will rise to
 the top of the stack.<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: =
adding a flag per node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any scal=
ing behavior.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not=
 significant scaling issue.<br>
<br>
The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding comp=
lexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in the draft=
, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases every t=
ime a path needs to be computed
 (quoting some of the cases from the draft).<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place=
 in the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stack is decided based on whether the node where the special l=
abel<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do no=
t<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node im=
posing<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capabl=
e of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path=
-Stats<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC)=
 of the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the =
nodes<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accountin=
g.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensi=
ons<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bott=
om of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels S=
HOULD be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be fo=
und at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is cap=
able of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
<br>
=E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware platf=
orms do<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a=
 large<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitation s=
ub-paths are<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to =
these<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress =
software need to also create/ install sub-paths.<br>
<br>
&lt;snip&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
mpls mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e082ef6c4e1c90b055e76246d--


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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Yes, I am aware of the IPR that applies to this draft.

The IPR has been already disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules - datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580

On Nov 04 09:01 AM, N.Leymann@telekom.de wrote:
> Working Group,
> 
> We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.
> 
> This is to start the IPR Poll.
> 
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?
> 
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
> 
> Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual document:
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_ipr_2580_&d=DwIFAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=GIehbDpQlo31lSi6WbnEkA&m=fdm4Ho1PimzFwwwNctqwaNPDHS9yx_-zmsNZ3Yf6sLc&s=Z7q0sKABQl7p1TjBlgbB_37QMGe7MAxvuoMS9wcdlRs&e=
> 
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and contributor.
> 
> If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Nic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 05:58:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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--_000_A068811EBB8A4247917499DEBE27FF45ciscocom_--


From nobody Tue Nov 21 05:30:11 2017
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From: Yimin Shen <yshen@juniper.net>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org" <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:30:02 +0000
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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org" <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:11:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" <zali@cisco.com>
Cc: "'spring'" <spring@ietf.org>, "'mpls'" <mpls@ietf.org>
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D106@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <EF064624-CF4D-4B88-823E-DAB9957B9336@cisco.com> <MWHPR05MB35512AD68B9CE96E8A5E7255C72E0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <A9BFDECC-84A4-42E6-83CD-D09A2D48BA75@cisco.com> <189901d36076$aa76b4b0$ff641e10$@olddog.co.uk> <0EAD8CC9-8C65-4A78-896B-D96F42230020@cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <0EAD8CC9-8C65-4A78-896B-D96F42230020@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi,

I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything =
productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to =
be nailed down.

Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express =
that maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the =
SR architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This =
seems to be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the =
manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful =
architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.

So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I =
assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say =
what you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably =
where you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count =
packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.=20

That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not =
desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to =
the SR paths that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you =
is to say whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
- not a concern in network management
- can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
   transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
   traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
   nodes).

But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft =
also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths =
that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of =
the landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft =
doesn't introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.

Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems =
to have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original =
statement of "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?

Cheers,
Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
> Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
> Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths
>=20
> Hi Adrian,
>=20
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>=20
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and =
follow-up on the
> next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a =
webEx call
> and discuss it further, offline.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>=20
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>     >>> procedure (in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that
> breaks SR
>     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>     >>
>     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your =
assertions, above?
>     >
>     > Please note that in =
draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >
>     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special label, read
>     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter =
against such
>     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of =
maintaining many
> counters and updating them at line speed.
>=20
> >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for =
accounting in
> networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match
> the packet that follows.
>=20
> >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of =
stack and
> hashing on the header of the payload.
>=20
> >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually =
results from a
> trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can't
> have all three.
>=20
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such =
operations but
> regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the =
transit/ egress nodes.
> In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks =
about needs to
> break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet =
additional states in the
> network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the =
following).
> Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture =
calls for
> simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network =
fabric. Please
> also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby =
creating
> another dimension for scaling limitations.
>=20
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the =
network.
> The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure =
proposed in the
> document; I am quoting from the draft.
>=20
> =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure =
all
>    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for =
each segment in the SR
>     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x =
times! This is a
>     >        serious a scaling issue.
>=20
> >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or =
misreading
> of our draft.
> >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as =
John did,
> that this is our own term).
> >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide =
a pointer to
> the text.
>=20
> >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single =
case where the
> imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option =
is applied.
> So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) =
exaggerating the
> severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually =
a problem.
>=20
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to =
3 labels) to
> be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not =
uncommon.
> The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
x`x>=20
>   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  =
The
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label =
stack
>    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>=20
>  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all =
the
>    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this =
document.
>    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the =
top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node =
capability and
>     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., =
the controller
>     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit =
nodes.
>=20
> >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about =
the capabilities
> of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the =
top of the
> stack it has to be able to handle it.
>=20
> >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is =
a small RLD.
> That information may need to be known by the controller to enable =
correct ECMP
> behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a =
small RLD then
> the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that =
the
> controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special =
purpose
> label will rise to the top of the stack.
>=20
> >    It seems to me that:
> >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a =
flag per node
> >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not =
significant scaling
> issue.
>=20
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in =
the draft,
> controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases =
every time a
> path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>=20
> =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in =
the
>    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>=20
>=20
> =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router =
MUST
>    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>    support them. =E2=80=9C
>=20
> =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are =
removed
>    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node =
imposing
>    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the =
SR-Path-Stats
>    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of =
the
>    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for =
accounting.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of =
removing the
>    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found =
at
>    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable =
of
>    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>=20
> =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware =
platforms do
>    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a =
large
>    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths =
are
>    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress =
software need to also create/
> install sub-paths.
>=20
> <snip>
>=20
>=20



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From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:34:10 +0100
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To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Adrian,

I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is much
bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use
SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and
different perspectives of its participants.

So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no more
then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradigm
(same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of
IGP segments.

*The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*

Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to add
only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distribution
objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy
with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it (to
build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a good
idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last IGP
segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EPE
but this is different app).

In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code and
only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to end
for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.

Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and
MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But
this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.

With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from how
SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. It is
just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyone is
using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks regardless
if this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster scale they
are building :).

Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the
value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments
when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My
recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which
after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces)
and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.

Cheers,
Robert.


On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
> productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to =
be
> nailed down.
>
> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express that
> maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR
> architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems =
to
> be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the
> manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful
> architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.
>
> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I
> assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say wha=
t
> you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where
> you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packet=
s
> per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>
> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?)
> to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths
> that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say
> whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
> - not a concern in network management
> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>    nodes).
>
> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft
> also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths tha=
t
> are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the
> landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
> introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>
> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems to
> have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement o=
f
> "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>
> Cheers,
> Adrian
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> > accounting-for-sr-paths
> >
> > Hi Adrian,
> >
> > Some comments are provided in-line.
> >
> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
> follow-up on the
> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a
> webEx call
> > and discuss it further, offline.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
> >
> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-path=
s)
> that
> > breaks SR
> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
> >     >>
> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions=
,
> above?
> >     >
> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
> accounting-for-sr-paths:
> >     >
> >     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the s=
pecial
> label, read
> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
> against such
> >     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
> >
> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
> maintaining many
> > counters and updating them at line speed.
> >
> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
> accounting in
> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
> match
> > the packet that follows.
> >
> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of
> stack and
> > hashing on the header of the payload.
> >
> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually result=
s
> from a
> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you
> can't
> > have all three.
> >
> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
> operations but
> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tra=
nsit/
> egress nodes.
> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abou=
t
> needs to
> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet addition=
al states
> in the
> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
> following).
> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture cal=
ls for
> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network
> fabric. Please
> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby
> creating
> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
> >
> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
> network.
> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
> proposed in the
> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
> >
> > =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
> >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure al=
l
> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each=
 segment
> in the SR
> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
> times! This is a
> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
> >
> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
> misreading
> > of our draft.
> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
> John did,
> > that this is our own term).
> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide =
a
> pointer to
> > the text.
> >
> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case
> where the
> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option
> is applied.
> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
> exaggerating the
> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually =
a
> problem.
> >
> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to =
3
> labels) to
> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not
> uncommon.
> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
> x`x>
> >   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  Th=
e
> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stac=
k
> >    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
> >
> >  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all =
the
> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document=
.
> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the to=
p
> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capab=
ility and
> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the
> controller
> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit
> nodes.
> >
> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the
> capabilities
> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the
> top of the
> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
> >
> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is =
a
> small RLD.
> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable
> correct ECMP
> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
> small RLD then
> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that t=
he
> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special
> purpose
> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
> >
> > >    It seems to me that:
> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
> flag per node
> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
> significant scaling
> > issue.
> >
> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in
> the draft,
> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases every
> time a
> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
> >
> > =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in th=
e
> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
> >
> >
> > =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router =
MUST
> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
> >    support them. =E2=80=9C
> >
> > =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are remo=
ved
> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
> >    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of th=
e
> >    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=
=80=9D
> >
> > =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
> >    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
> >
> > =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing=
 the
> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable o=
f
> >    removing them. =E2=80=9C
> >
> > =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platfo=
rms do
> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths ar=
e
> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
> >    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress softwa=
re need to also
> create/
> > install sub-paths.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi Adrian,</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">I am not going to defend beauty of any architectur=
e. I think there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practic=
e someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this litt=
le thread and different perspectives of its participants.=C2=A0</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and the=
re is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no more then hints on how to steer the p=
ackets within connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with le=
ss encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments.=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><b><br></b></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b>The less SIDs you add to th=
e packet the better !</b>=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small">Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controlle=
r) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic dis=
tribution objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-T=
E analogy with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can=
 do it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make i=
t a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that l=
ast IGP segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception=
 of EPE but this is different app).</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE ship=
ping code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traff=
ic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot =
bypass.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Now as f=
ar as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and MPLS-LDP net=
works and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But this is not=
 really related to SR-MPLS architecture.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small">With that I think the draft makes set of assumptio=
ns which are far from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it =
rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of BGP for data ce=
nters ... now everyone is using BGP for all data centers or even other type=
s of networks regardless if this is even applicable or best choice for a gi=
ven cluster scale they are building :).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small">Counters are great, more counters are even better, =
but I fail to see the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via spe=
cific IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via given =
IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS W=
G first (which after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels i=
n IGP replaces) and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">=
Robert.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farr=
el <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_=
blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything productive=
, but there are a couple of things you&#39;re raising that need to be naile=
d down.<br>
<br>
Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express that m=
aintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR archit=
ecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a =
debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the manageability of =
the network. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love a beautiful architecture, but o=
nly if the network can be operated successfully.<br>
<br>
So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I ass=
ume that you don&#39;t have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say what=
 you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where =
you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packets =
per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.<br>
<br>
That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?) t=
o count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths th=
at generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether=
 the problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
- not a concern in network management<br>
- can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes).<br>
<br>
But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that &quot;the draft=
 also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths&quot;. Sub-paths=
 that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of t=
he landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn&#39=
;t introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
<br>
Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems to h=
ave gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement of &=
quot;increased by up to 3x&quot; was an exaggeration?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Adrian<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com">zali@=
cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;spring&#39;; &#39;mpls&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-<br>
&gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
&gt;<br>
</span><div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and foll=
ow-up on the<br>
&gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a=
 webEx call<br>
&gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths) that<br>
&gt; breaks SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and co=
mplicated to implement.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to jus=
tify any of your assertions, above?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs =
to be able to recognize the special label, read<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identif=
ication label and update the counter against such<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=
=80=9D.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capa=
ble of maintaining many<br>
&gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process us=
ed for accounting in<br>
&gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match<br>
&gt; the packet that follows.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the=
 bottom of stack and<br>
&gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This =
usually results from a<br>
&gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can&#39;t<br>
&gt; have all three.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such oper=
ations but<br>
&gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/ egress nodes.<br>
&gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abo=
ut needs to<br>
&gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal states in the<br>
&gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the followi=
ng).<br>
&gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for<br>
&gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fab=
ric. Please<br>
&gt; also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby c=
reating<br>
&gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the n=
etwork.<br>
&gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propo=
sed in the<br>
&gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 described in this document for traffic accounting and wit=
h node-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to m=
ake sure all<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to p=
ush (up to) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means th=
at label stack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling i=
ssue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunders=
tanding or misreading<br>
&gt; of our draft.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Pa=
th (noting as John did,<br>
&gt; that this is our own term).<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retra=
ct or provide a pointer to<br>
&gt; the text.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies o=
nly with the single case where the<br>
&gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option=
 is applied.<br>
&gt; So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) ex=
aggerating the<br>
&gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is act=
ually a problem.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to=
 3 labels) to<br>
&gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not =
uncommon.<br>
&gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
</div></div>x`x&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CThe head-=
end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the=
 label stack<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when no=
t all the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the network support the extensions defined in th=
is document.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get expose=
d on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple=
 blocks of SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=
=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of tran=
sit node capability and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional =
per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to mainta=
in such information for the transit nodes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to =
care about the capabilities<br>
&gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the=
 top of the<br>
&gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is =
when there is a small RLD.<br>
&gt; That information may need to be known by the controller to enable corr=
ect ECMP<br>
&gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit=
 nodes with a small RLD then<br>
&gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that =
the<br>
&gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special =
purpose<br>
&gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrai=
ned: adding a flag per node<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any=
 scaling behavior.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD i=
s not significant scaling<br>
&gt; issue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding=
<br>
&gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in =
the draft,<br>
&gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y time a<br>
&gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the =
place in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stack is decided based on whether the node where the spec=
ial label<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that =
do not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when they are found at the top of the label stack, the no=
de imposing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are c=
apable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR=
-Path-Stats<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (=
RLDC) of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the=
 bottom of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Lab=
els SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 placed at a point in the label stack such that they will =
be found at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that i=
s capable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware =
platforms do<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., impos=
ing a large<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitat=
ion sub-paths are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocate=
d to these<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ing=
ress software need to also create/<br>
&gt; install sub-paths.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br=
>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113c383c0367a5055e827350--


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From: Minto Jeyananth <minto@juniper.net>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org" <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
Thread-Index: AQHTYnGcFHqHAGPQmEmU4BJ0Yi/gOqMet7WA
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 19:46:00 +0000
Message-ID: <C76EBE6D-84A1-44F3-9D15-924B6DE4147C@juniper.net>
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From: Hannes Gredler <hannes@rtbrick.com>
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:19:27 +0100
Cc: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org" <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>,  "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
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To: Minto Jeyananth <minto@juniper.net>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/lji30GI4Ms8uHOq3eMljgCANhWU>
Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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i am not aware of any undisclosed IPR - /hannes

> On 21 Nov 2017, at 20:46, Minto Jeyananth <minto@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
> I am not aware of any undisclosed IPR that applies to draft-shen-mpls-egre=
ss-protection-framework
>=20
>=20
> -minto=20
>=20
> On 11/20/17, 6:37 PM, "Loa Andersson" <loa@pi.nu> wrote:
>=20
>    Working Group, authors,
>=20
>    We have started to prepare the the draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-
>    framework for working group adoption, prior to the wgap we need to do
>    an IPR poll.
>=20
>    This mail starts this IPR poll.
>=20
>    Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-shen-mpls-egress-
>    protection-framework?
>=20
>    If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
>    (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).
>=20
>    There one IPR disclosures against draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-
>    framework.
>=20
>    If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to=

>    this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant
>    IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS WG mailing list.* The
>    document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been
>    received from each author and contributor.
>=20
>    If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or=

>    contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of an=
y
>    IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.
>=20
>=20
>    /Loa
>      mpls wg co-chair
>=20
>    --=20
>=20
>=20
>    Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
>    Senior MPLS Expert
>    Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>=20
>=20


From nobody Tue Nov 21 17:21:12 2017
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From: Jiangyuanlong <jiangyuanlong@huawei.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org" <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 01:21:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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From: <C.Michel@telekom.de>
To: <loa@pi.nu>, <mpls@ietf.org>, <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework.
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From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
CC: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D106@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <EF064624-CF4D-4B88-823E-DAB9957B9336@cisco.com> <MWHPR05MB35512AD68B9CE96E8A5E7255C72E0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <A9BFDECC-84A4-42E6-83CD-D09A2D48BA75@cisco.com> <189901d36076$aa76b4b0$ff641e10$@olddog.co.uk> <0EAD8CC9-8C65-4A78-896B-D96F42230020@cisco.com> <01de01d362f2$14766ef0$3d634cd0$@olddog.co.uk> <CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com>
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--_000_EF691E26AC7C406892E1966DDF6F4171ciscocom_--


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To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Comments inline:


On 20/11/2017 23:36, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote:
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Some comments are provided in-line.
>
> Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and follow-up on the next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a webEx call and discuss it further, offline.

No, some of us would  like to resolve the issue since it raises 
interesting architectural issues with SR.

>
> Thanks
>
> Regards … Zafar
>
> On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>      
>      >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that breaks SR
>      >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>      >>
>      >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertions, above?
>      >
>      > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:
>      >
>      > •    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the special label, read
>      >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter against such
>      >        “states”.
>      
>>     Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of maintaining many counters and updating them at line speed.
>      
>>     Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accounting in networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then match the packet that follows.
>      
>>     Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of stack and hashing on the header of the payload.
>      
>>     Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually results from a trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you can't have all three.
> The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such operations but regarding breaking the very beauty of SR – no states at the transit/ egress nodes.

Well, it's more about minimum state. Zero state at egress only applies 
for some classes of traffic.

Whilst the intent is for zero state in the transit nodes, this cannot be 
at the expense of not being able to manage the network.

> In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths – thereby creating yet additional states in the network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the following). Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN – the architecture calls for simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fabric.

No. SR is not and never has been solely for SDN. On day one there was 
the concept that the ingress could compute the path.


> Please also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby creating another dimension for scaling limitations.
>
> The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the network. The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure proposed in the document; I am quoting from the draft.
>
> “When using extensions
>     described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>     protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure all
>     the nodes in the network support the extension.”

If all nodes support this (as recommended), then all nodes support it so 
it works during re-route. Indeed this is more important during reroute 
since that is when you expect hot spots to form.

The dynamic counter concept is no different to dynamic counters needed 
in IPFIX, so it is a concept that a lot of routers already have.


>
> <snip>
>    
>      > •    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR
>      >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x times! This is a
>      >        serious a scaling issue.
>      

Maybe there needs to be a change in the text, but what is required is 
three labels per ingress being monitored. This is something where SR 
really introduces confusion for the OAM systems and we need to work this 
through. In "classic" MPLS each label represented a layer in the 
network. SR breaks that model, with sadly little comment on this in the 
architecture. So we do need to think this through a bit, and understand 
whether we need to have a rule stating that there can only be one source 
identifier in the stack - meaning that SI can only be BoS and that if 
you want to record the source when you introduce a new layer you need to 
terminate the old stack and start a new one.

>>     John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or misreading of our draft.
>>     The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as John did, that this is our own term).
>>     That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide a pointer to the text.
>      
>>     Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single case where the imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option is applied. So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) exaggerating the severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually a problem.
>   
> There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not uncommon. The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>     
>    “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>     in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  The
>     SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label stack
>     of a packet.”
>
>   “It is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all the
>     nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this document.
>     In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>     of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>     Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.”
>
>> •    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capability and
>      >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the controller
>      >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit nodes.
>      
>>     In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about the capabilities of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the top of the stack it has to be able to handle it.
>      
>>     The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is a small RLD. That information may need to be known by the controller to enable correct ECMP behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>>     If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a small RLD then the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that the controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special purpose label will rise to the top of the stack.
>      
>>     It seems to me that:
>>     - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a flag per node
>>        (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>>     - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not significant scaling issue.
>    
> The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding complexity to the controller/ ingress node.

As far as I can tell the complexity is exactly the same as the 
complexity needed to insert the EL. Indeed you probably insert the 
labels at the same time,
and I suppose we should consider having a combined EL/SI SPL.

> As you noted above and in the draft, controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases every time a path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>     
> “When the head-end node
>     inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in the
>     stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>     gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.”
>
>
> “While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST
>     ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>     support them. “
>
> “Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed
>     when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposing
>     the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>     stripping the labels.”
>
> In RLDC limitation cases, “To support traffic
>     accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stats
>     Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of the
>     nodes in the SR path.”
>
> “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>     in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.”
>
> “The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>     of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     defined in this document.”
>
> “If the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the
>     SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>     the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>     placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found at
>     the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable of
>     removing them. “
>
> “SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platforms do
>     not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a large
>     number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths are
>     created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>     sub-paths.” … which means controller/ ingress software need to also create/ install sub-paths.
>    
> <snip>

These look like exactly the same considerations needed for EL.

Now we need to consider what happens if we have a node that does not 
support
the required depth. In both cases the result is the same - the feature 
is not
supported, but the packet is correctly forwarded. In this case it will mean
that there is an unmonitored part of the network. That is not so bad in 
that
you can at least figure out the region in the network where this happened.
In the case of the same limitation and the EL system the result may well be
a traffic overload as there is little entropy in an SR label stack.

- Stewart


From nobody Wed Nov 22 02:00:34 2017
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To: Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3048EDFA@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com>
From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] The link to draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction is unavaiable
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Works OK here, but note that like its twin it is a CANDIDATE for 
adoption, it is not a working group document.

- Stewart

On 21/11/2017 01:31, Xuxiaohu wrote:
> Hi co-chairs,
>
> I just noticed that draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction has been moved to Working Group Documents list. However the link is unavailable. Would you please fix the problem?
>
> Best regards,
> Xiaohu
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


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From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@huawei.com>
To: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org" <draft-shen-mpls-egress-protection-framework@ietf.org>
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To: mpls@ietf.org, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Xuxiaohu <xuxiaohu@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] The link to draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction is unavaiable
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Stewart,

I think that the issue Xiaohu found is this:

There are (for every wg) two pages that lists documents for mpls they are

https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mpls/documents/
this is the list that is IETF official and the only page the mpls wg
uses. It correctly treat all our RFCs, WG IDs and related documents.
It correctly list  draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction
as a candidate for wg adoption.

Then there are https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mpls

That page mangles up some documents, most often (but not always) because
there is something wrong in the template or meta data.
draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction is an example of such a
document.

However, the solution is simpe
. don't use https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mpls
- use https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mpls/documents/

I don't think it is worthwhile trying to fix problem with the old set
of web pages, migrate to the new!

/Loa


On 2017-11-22 18:00, Stewart Bryant wrote:
> 
> Works OK here, but note that like its twin it is a CANDIDATE for 
> adoption, it is not a working group document.
> 
> - Stewart
> 
> On 21/11/2017 01:31, Xuxiaohu wrote:
>> Hi co-chairs,
>>
>> I just noticed that draft-xu-mpls-unified-source-routing-instruction 
>> has been moved to Working Group Documents list. However the link is 
>> unavailable. Would you please fix the problem?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Xiaohu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

-- 


Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
Senior MPLS Expert
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64


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From: "Mike Taillon (mtaillon)" <mtaillon@cisco.com>
To: "n.leymann@telekom.de" <N.Leymann@telekom.de>
CC: "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 13:13:51 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] IPR poll on draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr
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Hi

I am not aware of any additional IPR that applies to this draft.

-mike

On Nov 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, n.leymann@telekom.de<mailto:n.leymann@telekom.d=
e> <N.Leymann@telekom.de<mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de>> wrote:

Working Group,

We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for working group la=
st call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.

This is to start the IPR Poll.

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr?

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R=
FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).

Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the individual docu=
ment:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please respond to thi=
s email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. *Th=
e response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* The document will=
 not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each=
 author and contributor.

If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as an author or con=
tributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aware of any IPR t=
hat has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rules.

Best regards

Nic





_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org<mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hi
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I am not aware of any additional IPR that applies to this d=
raft.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">-mike</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Nov 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:n.leymann@tel=
ekom.de" class=3D"">
n.leymann@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:N.Leymann@telekom.de" class=
=3D"">N.Leymann@telekom.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2" style=3D"font-style: norm=
al; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;=
 text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: no=
rmal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Working Group,</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">We are currently preparing draft-ietf-mpls-ri-rsvp-frr for =
working group last call. We will do an IPR poll prior to the wglc.</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">This is to start the IPR Poll.</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-mpls-ri=
-rsvp-frr?</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF =
IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details).</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">Please note that there is already one IPR disclosed for the=
 individual document:</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/" class=3D=
"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2580/</a></div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">If you are listed as a document author or contributor pleas=
e respond to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any r=
elevant IPR. *The response needs to be sent to the MPLS wg mailing list.* T=
he document will not advance to the
 next stage until a response has been received from each author and contrib=
utor.</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">If you are on the MPLS WG email list but are not listed as =
an author or contributor, then please explicitly respond only if you are aw=
are of any IPR that has not yet been disclosed in conformance with IETF rul=
es.</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">Best regards</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">Nic</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
</span></font><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-=
style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spaci=
ng: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; whit=
e-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">_____________________________=
__________________</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12=
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one; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px=
;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norma=
l; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display:=
 inline !important;" class=3D"">mpls
 mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" cl=
ass=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
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x; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=
=3D"">mpls@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px=
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r-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"=
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" style=3D"font-family=
: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal=
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tart; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-strok=
e-width: 0px;" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></d=
iv>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
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To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D106@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <EF064624-CF4D-4B88-823E-DAB9957B9336@cisco.com> <MWHPR05MB35512AD68B9CE96E8A5E7255C72E0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <A9BFDECC-84A4-42E6-83CD-D09A2D48BA75@cisco.com> <189901d36076$aa76b4b0$ff641e10$@olddog.co.uk> <0EAD8CC9-8C65-4A78-896B-D96F42230020@cisco.com> <01de01d362f2$14766ef0$3d634cd0$@olddog.co.uk> <CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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+1

In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that Robert 
got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly agree with 
the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.

BR, Martin

Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert Raszuk:
> Hi Adrian,
>
> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is 
> much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will 
> use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread 
> and different perspectives of its participants.
>
> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no 
> more then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less 
> paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via 
> one or more of IGP segments.
> *
> *
> *The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*
>
> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to 
> add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic 
> distribution objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like 
> a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only 
> that you can do it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your 
> domain) does not make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I 
> see any pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to 
> domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is different app).
>
> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code 
> and only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic 
> end to end for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot 
> spot bypass.
>
> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and 
> MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very 
> useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.
>
> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far 
> from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather 
> problematic. It is just like draft describing use of BGP for data 
> centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all data centers or even 
> other types of networks regardless if this is even applicable or best 
> choice for a given cluster scale they are building :).
>
> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see 
> the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP 
> segments when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP 
> topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS 
> WG first (which after all is one example where flooding domain wide 
> labels in IGP replaces) and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk 
> <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
>     productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that
>     need to be nailed down.
>
>     Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
>     express that maintaining counters in the network goes against the
>     beauty of the SR architecture because it means holding state at
>     transit nodes. This seems to be a debate about the perfection of
>     an architecture versus the manageability of the network. Don't get
>     me wrong, I love a beautiful architecture, but only if the network
>     can be operated successfully.
>
>     So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way
>     down. I assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it
>     seems to say what you are saying about the statelessness of SR.
>     Section 2 is probably where you start to be unhappy: it sets an
>     objective (to be able to count packets per flow) and sets some
>     requirements on any solution.
>
>     That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not
>     desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign those
>     counts to the SR paths that generated those packet flows. So the
>     challenge for you is to say whether the problem described in
>     Figure 1 is:
>     - not a concern in network management
>     - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>        transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>        traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>        nodes).
>
>     But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the
>     draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths".
>     Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID
>     are just part of the landscape and (of course) thy have to be
>     coped with. The draft doesn't introduce sub-paths, it just
>     observes that they exist.
>
>     Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier
>     seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you
>     original statement of "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>
>     Cheers,
>     Adrian
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com
>     <mailto:zali@cisco.com>]
>     > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>     > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>
>     > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>     > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
>     > accounting-for-sr-paths
>     >
>     > Hi Adrian,
>     >
>     > Some comments are provided in-line.
>     >
>     > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die
>     and follow-up on the
>     > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to
>     have a webEx call
>     > and discuss it further, offline.
>     >
>     > Thanks
>     >
>     > Regards … Zafar
>     >
>     > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk
>     <mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>> wrote:
>     >
>     > <snip>
>     >
>     >     >>> procedure (in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths) that
>     > breaks SR
>     >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to
>     implement.
>     >     >>
>     >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your
>     assertions, above?
>     >     >
>     >     > Please note that in
>     draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths:
>     >     >
>     >     > •    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the
>     special label, read
>     >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the
>     counter against such
>     >     >        “states”.
>     >
>     > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
>     maintaining many
>     > counters and updating them at line speed.
>     >
>     > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
>     accounting in
>     > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and
>     then match
>     > the packet that follows.
>     >
>     > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom
>     of stack and
>     > hashing on the header of the payload.
>     >
>     > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually
>     results from a
>     > trade between low cost, high performance, and features.
>     Generally you can't
>     > have all three.
>     >
>     > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform
>     such operations but
>     > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR – no states at the
>     transit/ egress nodes.
>     > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also
>     talks about needs to
>     > break an SR Path into sub-paths – thereby creating yet
>     additional states in the
>     > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
>     following).
>     > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN – the architecture
>     calls for
>     > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the
>     network fabric. Please
>     > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path,
>     thereby creating
>     > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>     >
>     > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in
>     the network.
>     > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
>     proposed in the
>     > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>     >
>     > “When using extensions
>     >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>     >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make
>     sure all
>     >    the nodes in the network support the extension.”
>     >
>     > <snip>
>     >
>     >     > •    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each
>     segment in the SR
>     >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up
>     to 3x times! This is a
>     >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>     >
>     > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding
>     or misreading
>     > of our draft.
>     > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path
>     (noting as John did,
>     > that this is our own term).
>     > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or
>     provide a pointer to
>     > the text.
>     >
>     > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the
>     single case where the
>     > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label
>     option is applied.
>     > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
>     exaggerating the
>     > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that 4-label stack is
>     actually a problem.
>     >
>     > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels
>     (up to 3 labels) to
>     > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios
>     are not uncommon.
>     > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>     x`x>
>     >   “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the
>     nodes
>     >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for
>     accounting.  The
>     >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the
>     label stack
>     >    of a packet.”
>     >
>     >  “It is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all the
>     >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this
>     document.
>     >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on
>     the top
>     >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks
>     of SR-
>     >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.”
>     >
>     > > •    The controller needs to keep track of transit node
>     capability and
>     >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly.
>     I.e., the controller
>     >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the
>     transit nodes.
>     >
>     > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care
>     about the capabilities
>     > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label
>     reaches the top of the
>     > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>     >
>     > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when
>     there is a small RLD.
>     > That information may need to be known by the controller to
>     enable correct ECMP
>     > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>     > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes
>     with a small RLD then
>     > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means
>     that the
>     > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the
>     special purpose
>     > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>     >
>     > >    It seems to me that:
>     > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained:
>     adding a flag per node
>     > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>     > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
>     significant scaling
>     > issue.
>     >
>     > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for
>     adding
>     > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above
>     and in the draft,
>     > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following
>     cases every time a
>     > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the
>     draft).
>     >
>     > “When the head-end node
>     >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the
>     place in the
>     >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special
>     label
>     >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.”
>     >
>     >
>     > “While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST
>     >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>     >    support them. “
>     >
>     > “Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed
>     >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node
>     imposing
>     >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are
>     capable of
>     >    stripping the labels.”
>     >
>     > In RLDC limitation cases, “To support traffic
>     >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the
>     SR-Path-Stats
>     >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability
>     (RLDC) of the
>     >    nodes in the SR path.”
>     >
>     > “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>     >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the
>     nodes
>     >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.”
>     >
>     > “The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>     >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>     >    defined in this document.”
>     >
>     > “If the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the
>     >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the
>     bottom of
>     >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>     >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be
>     found at
>     >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is
>     capable of
>     >    removing them. “
>     >
>     > “SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware
>     platforms do
>     >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing
>     a large
>     >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation
>     sub-paths are
>     >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to
>     these
>     >    sub-paths.” … which means controller/ ingress software need
>     to also create/
>     > install sub-paths.
>     >
>     > <snip>
>     >
>     >
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     spring mailing list
>     spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring>
>
>
>
>
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    +1<br>
    <br>
    In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that
    Robert got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly
    agree with the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.<br>
    <br>
    BR, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert
      Raszuk:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi
          Adrian,</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I
          am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think
          there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in
          practice someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root
          cause for this little thread and different perspectives of its
          participants. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So
          SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs
          are no more then hints on how to steer the packets within
          connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with
          less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b><br>
          </b></div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><b>The
            less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b> </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Yes
          that requires to be smart (or to have smart central
          controller) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish
          the network traffic distribution objectives. I clearly see
          folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs,
          but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it
          (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not
          make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any
          pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to
          domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is
          different app).</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In
          fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping
          code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all
          unicast traffic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used
          it for FRR or for hot spot bypass. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Now
          as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks
          and MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is
          very useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS
          architecture. </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">With
          that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far
          from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it
          rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of
          BGP for data centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all
          data centers or even other types of networks regardless if
          this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
          scale they are building :). </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Counters
          are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see
          the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific
          IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via
          given IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for
          MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example
          where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then
          SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div>
        <div class="gmail_default"
          style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian
          Farrel <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target="_blank"
              moz-do-not-send="true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
            <br>
            I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield
            anything productive, but there are a couple of things you're
            raising that need to be nailed down.<br>
            <br>
            Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
            express that maintaining counters in the network goes
            against the beauty of the SR architecture because it means
            holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a debate
            about the perfection of an architecture versus the
            manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a
            beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be
            operated successfully.<br>
            <br>
            So, we should start at the top of the document and work our
            way down. I assume that you don't have any issues with
            Section 1: it seems to say what you are saying about the
            statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you start
            to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count
            packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any
            solution.<br>
            <br>
            That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or
            not desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign
            those counts to the SR paths that generated those packet
            flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether the
            problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
            - not a concern in network management<br>
            - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
               transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting<br>
               traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at
            transit<br>
               nodes).<br>
            <br>
            But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that
            "the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into
            sub-paths". Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansion
            of a Binding SID are just part of the landscape and (of
            course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
            introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
            <br>
            Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a
            multiplier seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just
            agree that you original statement of "increased by up to 3x"
            was an exaggeration?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers,<br>
            Adrian<br>
            <span class=""><br>
              &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
              &gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a
                href="mailto:zali@cisco.com" moz-do-not-send="true">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
              &gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
              &gt; To: <a href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"
                moz-do-not-send="true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
              &gt; Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'<br>
              &gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<br>
              &gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
              &gt;<br>
            </span>
            <div>
              <div class="h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering
                tread die and follow-up on the<br>
                &gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will
                be happy to have a webEx call<br>
                &gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Thanks<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Regards … Zafar<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" &lt;<a
                  href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths)
                that<br>
                &gt; breaks SR<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable
                and complicated to implement.<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt;&gt; [JD]  Do you have any evidence to
                justify any of your assertions, above?<br>
                &gt;     &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt; Please note that in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths:<br>
                &gt;     &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt; •    The transit node needs to be able to
                recognize the special label, read<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        the SR Path Identification label
                and update the counter against such<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        “states”.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Possibly worth noting that existing devices
                are capable of maintaining many<br>
                &gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Several people have noted that ipfix is a
                process used for accounting in<br>
                &gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom
                of stack and then match<br>
                &gt; the packet that follows.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve
                finding the bottom of stack and<br>
                &gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Some hardware cannot perform either
                mechanism. This usually results from a<br>
                &gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and
                features. Generally you can't<br>
                &gt; have all three.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able
                to perform such operations but<br>
                &gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR – no
                states at the transit/ egress nodes.<br>
                &gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the
                draft also talks about needs to<br>
                &gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths – thereby creating
                yet additional states in the<br>
                &gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on
                this in the following).<br>
                &gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN – the
                architecture calls for<br>
                &gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity
                in the network fabric. Please<br>
                &gt; also note that a network may have a large number of
                SR Path, thereby creating<br>
                &gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node
                protection in the network.<br>
                &gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to
                implement procedure proposed in the<br>
                &gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “When using extensions<br>
                &gt;    described in this document for traffic
                accounting and with node-<br>
                &gt;    protection enabled in the network, it is
                RECOMMENDED to make sure all<br>
                &gt;    the nodes in the network support the extension.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;     &gt; •    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3
                Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        Path. That means that label stack
                is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
                &gt;     &gt;        serious a scaling issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    John asked for evidence and you provided a
                misunderstanding or misreading<br>
                &gt; of our draft.<br>
                &gt; &gt;    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels
                per SR Path (noting as John did,<br>
                &gt; that this is our own term).<br>
                &gt; &gt;    That is not what you say, so perhaps you
                could retract or provide a pointer to<br>
                &gt; the text.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies
                only with the single case where the<br>
                &gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the
                three label option is applied.<br>
                &gt; So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and
                wilfully?) exaggerating the<br>
                &gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that 
                4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; There are many scenarios that will require
                SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to<br>
                &gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These
                scenarios are not uncommon.<br>
                &gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            x`x&gt;<br>
            <div class="HOEnZb">
              <div class="h5">&gt;   “The head-end node SHOULD insert
                the SR-<br>
                &gt;    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier
                for accounting.  The<br>
                &gt;    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple
                times in the label stack<br>
                &gt;    of a packet.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;  “It is possible to partially deploy this feature
                when not all the<br>
                &gt;    nodes in the network support the extensions
                defined in this document.<br>
                &gt;    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT
                get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;    of the label stack at a node that does not
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;    defined in this document.  This may require
                multiple blocks of SR-<br>
                &gt;    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet
                header.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt; •    The controller needs to keep track of
                transit node capability and<br>
                &gt;     &gt;       push the additional per-path labels,
                accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
                &gt;     &gt;       also needs to maintain such
                information for the transit nodes.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    In most cases, the controller/ingress only
                needs to care about the capabilities<br>
                &gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special
                purpose label reaches the top of the<br>
                &gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    The only time when the transit node issue
                arises is when there is a small RLD.<br>
                &gt; That information may need to be known by the
                controller to enable correct ECMP<br>
                &gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
                &gt; &gt;    If there is a desire to enable accounting
                at transit nodes with a small RLD then<br>
                &gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and
                *that* means that the<br>
                &gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the
                network the special purpose<br>
                &gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;    It seems to me that:<br>
                &gt; &gt;    - Controllers are not particularly resource
                constrained: adding a flag per node<br>
                &gt; &gt;       (or even per link!) would not break any
                scaling behavior.<br>
                &gt; &gt;    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside
                the RLD is not significant scaling<br>
                &gt; issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling
                but was for adding<br>
                &gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you
                noted above and in the draft,<br>
                &gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the
                following cases every time a<br>
                &gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the
                cases from the draft).<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “When the head-end node<br>
                &gt;    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label
                stack, the place in the<br>
                &gt;    stack is decided based on whether the node where
                the special label<br>
                &gt;    gets exposed is capable of popping those
                labels.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the
                head-end router MUST<br>
                &gt;    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the
                nodes that do not<br>
                &gt;    support them. “<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats
                labels are removed<br>
                &gt;    when they are found at the top of the label
                stack, the node imposing<br>
                &gt;    the label stack (the ingress) must know which
                nodes are capable of<br>
                &gt;    stripping the labels.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; In RLDC limitation cases, “To support traffic<br>
                &gt;    accounting in such cases it is necessary to
                insert the SR-Path-Stats<br>
                &gt;    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth
                Capability (RLDC) of the<br>
                &gt;    nodes in the SR path.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
                &gt;    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier
                for accounting.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;    of the label stack at a node that does not
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;    defined in this document.”<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “If the egress has not indicated that it is capable
                of removing the<br>
                &gt;    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be
                placed at the bottom of<br>
                &gt;    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats
                Labels SHOULD be<br>
                &gt;    placed at a point in the label stack such that
                they will be found at<br>
                &gt;    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR
                path that is capable of<br>
                &gt;    removing them. “<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; “SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some
                hardware platforms do<br>
                &gt;    not support creating such large label stacks
                (i.e., imposing a large<br>
                &gt;    number of labels at once).  To overcome this
                limitation sub-paths are<br>
                &gt;    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are
                allocated to these<br>
                &gt;    sub-paths.” … which means controller/ ingress
                software need to also create/<br>
                &gt; install sub-paths.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class="HOEnZb">
              <div class="h5">spring mailing list<br>
                <a href="mailto:spring@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">spring@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring"
                  rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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References: <CA+RyBmUHAkuA3o-LpHhMwCbkh0k+emt9OZ3B8Njj2h=jaasTZw@mail.gmail.com> <3B1EE673-044F-4E47-9C56-6FF360905C58@cisco.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047CEC9@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <CA+RyBmVC2OjEs-=1WsL13eBmycZtnYnM8ybSdmWhGPByLKNQfA@mail.gmail.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE3047D106@NKGEML515-MBS.china.huawei.com> <EF064624-CF4D-4B88-823E-DAB9957B9336@cisco.com> <MWHPR05MB35512AD68B9CE96E8A5E7255C72E0@MWHPR05MB3551.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <A9BFDECC-84A4-42E6-83CD-D09A2D48BA75@cisco.com> <189901d36076$aa76b4b0$ff641e10$@olddog.co.uk> <0EAD8CC9-8C65-4A78-896B-D96F42230020@cisco.com> <01de01d362f2$14766ef0$3d634cd0$@olddog.co.uk> <CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com> <a928b0a7-726c-a885-ba3d-3aedb255ca64@nic.dtag.de>
To: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/ggGaIhigG4U5J8Na7i3Dl59cqGI>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Wrt architecture - don=92t think one has to fit all needs. While some migrat=
e to SR from IP/LDP environment and pretty happy with what they have got tod=
ay, others come from a heavy traffic engineered one, with per LSP/node count=
ers that are mandatory from a network management prospective(and I believe t=
hat initial discussion had been triggered by such need).
There=92s no free lunch, additional requirements wrt counters will inevitabl=
y create more state, however if one doesn=92t need it, it must not be impose=
d.
If one is willing to deal(pay) with complexity - why shouldn=92t the technol=
ogy facilitate it?


Regards,
Jeff

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de> wrote:
>=20
> +1
>=20
> In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that Robert got g=
ood network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly agree with the observ=
ations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.
>=20
> BR, Martin
>=20
>> Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert Raszuk:
>> Hi Adrian,
>>=20
>> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is muc=
h bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use SR-MP=
LS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and different p=
erspectives of its participants.=20
>>=20
>> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no mo=
re then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradigm (s=
ame as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP s=
egments.=20
>>=20
>> The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !=20
>>=20
>> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to ad=
d only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distribution=
 objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy w=
ith EROs,           but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can d=
o it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a=
 good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last I=
GP segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EP=
E but this is different app).
>>=20
>> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code an=
d only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to end=
 for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.=20
>>=20
>> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and MP=
LS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But th=
is is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.=20
>>=20
>> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from h=
ow SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. It i=
s just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyone is=
 using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks regardless i=
f this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster scale they are b=
uilding :).=20
>>=20
>> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the v=
alue for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments when w=
e are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My recommend=
ation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is=
 one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then SR-=
MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Robert.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wro=
te:
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything product=
ive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to be nailed d=
own.
>>>=20
>>> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express tha=
t maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR arch=
itecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a=
 debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the manageability of t=
he network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful architecture, but only if=
 the network can be operated successfully.
>>>=20
>>> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I a=
ssume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say what yo=
u are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you s=
tart to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packets per fl=
ow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>>>=20
>>> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?=
) to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths t=
hat generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether=
 the problem described in Figure 1 is:
>>> - not a concern in network management
>>> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>>>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>>>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>>>    nodes).
>>>=20
>>> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft a=
lso talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths that ar=
e achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the landsc=
ape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't introduce s=
ub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>>>=20
>>> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems t=
o have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement of=
 "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Adrian
>>>=20
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
>>> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>>> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>>> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-
>>> > accounting-for-sr-paths
>>> >
>>> > Hi Adrian,
>>> >
>>> > Some comments are provided in-line.
>>> >
>>> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and foll=
ow-up on the
>>> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a=
 webEx call
>>> > and discuss it further, offline.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks
>>> >
>>> > Regards =85 Zafar
>>> >
>>> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> >
>>> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs) that
>>> > breaks SR
>>> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>>> >     >>
>>> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your assertion=
s, above?
>>> >     >
>>> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr=
-paths:
>>> >     >
>>> >     > =95    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the specia=
l label, read
>>> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter a=
gainst such
>>> >     >        =93states=94.
>>> >
>>> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of mainta=
ining many
>>> > counters and updating them at line speed.
>>> >
>>> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for accoun=
ting in
>>> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then m=
atch
>>> > the packet that follows.
>>> >
>>> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of st=
ack and
>>> > hashing on the header of the payload.
>>> >
>>> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually resul=
ts from a
>>> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you c=
an't
>>> > have all three.
>>> >
>>> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such oper=
ations but
>>> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =96 no states at the transit/=
 egress nodes.
>>> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abo=
ut needs to
>>> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =96 thereby creating yet additional st=
ates in the
>>> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the followi=
ng).
>>> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =96 the architecture calls fo=
r
>>> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fab=
ric. Please
>>> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby c=
reating
>>> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>>> >
>>> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the n=
etwork.
>>> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propo=
sed in the
>>> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>>> >
>>> > =93When using extensions
>>> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>>> >    protection enabled in the network, it is                 RECOMMENDE=
D to make sure all
>>> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=94
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> >
>>> >     > =95    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for each segm=
ent in the SR
>>> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x t=
imes! This is a
>>> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>>> >
>>> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or mi=
sreading
>>> > of our draft.
>>> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as=
 John did,
>>> > that this is our own term).
>>> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide=
 a pointer to
>>> > the text.
>>> >
>>> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single cas=
e where the
>>> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option=
 is applied.
>>> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) exagger=
ating the
>>> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that                  4-label s=
tack is actually a problem.
>>> >
>>> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to=
 3 labels) to
>>> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not u=
ncommon.
>>> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>>> x`x>
>>> >   =93The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes=

>>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  T=
he
>>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label sta=
ck
>>> >    of a packet.=94
>>> >
>>> >  =93It is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all the
>>> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this documen=
t.
>>> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the t=
op
>>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>>> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>>> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=94
>>> >
>>> > > =95    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capability=
 and
>>> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., th=
e controller
>>> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit no=
des.
>>> >
>>> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about th=
e capabilities
>>> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the=
 top of the
>>> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>>> >
>>> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is=
 a small RLD.
>>> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable corr=
ect ECMP
>>> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>>> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a=
 small RLD then
>>> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that t=
he
>>> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special p=
urpose
>>> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>>> >
>>> > >    It seems to me that:
>>> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a=
 flag per node
>>> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>>> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not signifi=
cant scaling
>>> > issue.
>>> >
>>> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding=

>>> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in t=
he draft,
>>> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y time a
>>> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>>> >
>>> > =93When the head-end node
>>> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in t=
he
>>> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>>> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=94
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > =93While inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router MUST
>>> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>>> >    support them. =93
>>> >
>>> > =93Because it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are removed
>>> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposin=
g
>>> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>>> >    stripping the labels.=94
>>> >
>>> > In RLDC limitation cases, =93To support traffic
>>> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stat=
s
>>> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of t=
he
>>> >    nodes in the SR path.=94
>>> >
>>> > =93The head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes=

>>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=94=

>>> >
>>> > =93The special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>>> >    defined in this document.=94
>>> >
>>> > =93If the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removing the
>>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of=

>>> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>>> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found a=
t
>>> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable o=
f
>>> >    removing them. =93
>>> >
>>> > =93SR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platforms d=
o
>>> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a larg=
e
>>> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths a=
re
>>> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these=

>>> >    sub-paths.=94 =85 which means controller/ ingress software need to a=
lso create/
>>> > install sub-paths.
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

--Apple-Mail-91F36F8B-24C1-4295-AA5B-B74AE51768D1
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Wrt architecture - don=E2=80=99t think one h=
as to fit all needs. While some migrate to SR from IP/LDP environment and pr=
etty happy with what they have got today, others come from a heavy traffic e=
ngineered one, with per LSP/node counters that are mandatory from a network m=
anagement prospective(and I believe that initial discussion had been trigger=
ed by such need).<div>There=E2=80=99s no free lunch, additional requirements=
 wrt counters will inevitably create more state, however if one doesn=E2=80=99=
t need it, it must not be imposed.</div><div>If one is willing to deal(pay) w=
ith complexity - why shouldn=E2=80=99t the technology facilitate it?</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Regards,<div>Jeff</div>=
</div><div><br>On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Martin Horneffer &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:maho@nic.dtag.de">maho@nic.dtag.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
>
 =20
 =20
    +1<br>
    <br>
    In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that
    Robert got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly
    agree with the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.<br>
    <br>
    BR, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert
      Raszuk:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:CA+b+ERmkHZe9BU-JZLWpOEcwAhPqx72Sw=
4-NyLgVjhzzfySdCQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Hi
          Adrian,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">I
          am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think
          there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in
          practice someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root
          cause for this little thread and different perspectives of its
          participants.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">So
          SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs
          are no more then hints on how to steer the packets within
          connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with
          less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><b><br>
          </b></div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><b>The
            less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b>&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Yes
          that requires to be smart (or to have smart central
          controller) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish
          the network traffic distribution objectives. I clearly see
          folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs,
          but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it
          (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not
          make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any
          pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to
          domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is
          different app).</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">In
          fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping
          code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all
          unicast traffic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used
          it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Now
          as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks
          and MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is
          very useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS
          architecture.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">With
          that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far
          from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it
          rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of
          BGP for data centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all
          data centers or even other types of networks regardless if
          this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
          scale they are building :).&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Counters
          are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see
          the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific
          IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via
          given IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for
          MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example
          where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then
          SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian
          Farrel <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk=
" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</sp=
an>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
            <br>
            I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield
            anything productive, but there are a couple of things you're
            raising that need to be nailed down.<br>
            <br>
            Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
            express that maintaining counters in the network goes
            against the beauty of the SR architecture because it means
            holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a debate
            about the perfection of an architecture versus the
            manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a
            beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be
            operated successfully.<br>
            <br>
            So, we should start at the top of the document and work our
            way down. I assume that you don't have any issues with
            Section 1: it seems to say what you are saying about the
            statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you start
            to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count
            packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any
            solution.<br>
            <br>
            That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or
            not desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign
            those counts to the SR paths that generated those packet
            flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether the
            problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
            - not a concern in network management<br>
            - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
            &nbsp; &nbsp;transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of countin=
g<br>
            &nbsp; &nbsp;traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic=
 at
            transit<br>
            &nbsp; &nbsp;nodes).<br>
            <br>
            But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that
            "the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into
            sub-paths". Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansion
            of a Binding SID are just part of the landscape and (of
            course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
            introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
            <br>
            Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a
            multiplier seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just
            agree that you original statement of "increased by up to 3x"
            was an exaggeration?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers,<br>
            Adrian<br>
            <span class=3D""><br>
              &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
              &gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cis=
co.com" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
              &gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
              &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" moz-do-not-sen=
d=3D"true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
              &gt; Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'<br>
              &gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<br>
              &gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
              &gt;<br>
            </span>
            <div>
              <div class=3D"h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering
                tread die and follow-up on the<br>
                &gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will
                be happy to have a webEx call<br>
                &gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Thanks<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&g=
t;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths)
                that<br>
                &gt; breaks SR<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly un=
scalable
                and complicated to implement.<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&gt; [JD]&nbsp; Do you have any e=
vidence to
                justify any of your assertions, above?<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; Please note that in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<wbr>accounting-for-sr-paths:<br>=

                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =E2=80=A2&nbsp; &nbsp; The tran=
sit node needs to be able to
                recognize the special label, read<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the S=
R Path Identification label
                and update the counter against such<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =E2=80=
=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Possibly worth noting that existing d=
evices
                are capable of maintaining many<br>
                &gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Several people have noted that ipfix i=
s a
                process used for accounting in<br>
                &gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom
                of stack and then match<br>
                &gt; the packet that follows.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) invo=
lve
                finding the bottom of stack and<br>
                &gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Some hardware cannot perform either
                mechanism. This usually results from a<br>
                &gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and
                features. Generally you can't<br>
                &gt; have all three.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able
                to perform such operations but<br>
                &gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no
                states at the transit/ egress nodes.<br>
                &gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the
                draft also talks about needs to<br>
                &gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creat=
ing
                yet additional states in the<br>
                &gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on
                this in the following).<br>
                &gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the
                architecture calls for<br>
                &gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity
                in the network fabric. Please<br>
                &gt; also note that a network may have a large number of
                SR Path, thereby creating<br>
                &gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node
                protection in the network.<br>
                &gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to
                implement procedure proposed in the<br>
                &gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; described in this document for traffic
                accounting and with node-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; protection enabled in the network, it is
                RECOMMENDED to make sure all<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the nodes in the network support the exten=
sion.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; =E2=80=A2&nbsp; &nbsp; The draf=
t proposes to push (up to) 3
                Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Path=
. That means that label stack
                is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; seri=
ous a scaling issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; John asked for evidence and you provi=
ded a
                misunderstanding or misreading<br>
                &gt; of our draft.<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; The document proposes adding 2 or 3 l=
abels
                per SR Path (noting as John did,<br>
                &gt; that this is our own term).<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; That is not what you say, so perhaps y=
ou
                could retract or provide a pointer to<br>
                &gt; the text.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Thus, "increased up to 3x times" appl=
ies
                only with the single case where the<br>
                &gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the
                three label option is applied.<br>
                &gt; So, while&nbsp; what you say is true, it is clearly (an=
d
                wilfully?) exaggerating the<br>
                &gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that&nbsp;
                4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; There are many scenarios that will require
                SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to<br>
                &gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These
                scenarios are not uncommon.<br>
                &gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            x`x&gt;<br>
            <div class=3D"HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"h5">&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;=E2=80=9CThe head-end node S=
HOULD insert
                the SR-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label s=
tack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Iden=
tifier
                for accounting.&nbsp; The<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multip=
le
                times in the label stack<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this f=
eature
                when not all the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; nodes in the network support the extension=
s
                defined in this document.<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; In such scenarios, the special labels MUST=
 NOT
                get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; of the label stack at a node that does not=

                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; defined in this document.&nbsp; This may r=
equire
                multiple blocks of SR-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the pa=
cket
                header.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2&nbsp; &nbsp; The controller needs to kee=
p track of
                transit node capability and<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;push t=
he additional per-path labels,
                accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;also n=
eeds to maintain such
                information for the transit nodes.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; In most cases, the controller/ingress=
 only
                needs to care about the capabilities<br>
                &gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special
                purpose label reaches the top of the<br>
                &gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; The only time when the transit node i=
ssue
                arises is when there is a small RLD.<br>
                &gt; That information may need to be known by the
                controller to enable correct ECMP<br>
                &gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; If there is a desire to enable accoun=
ting
                at transit nodes with a small RLD then<br>
                &gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and
                *that* means that the<br>
                &gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the
                network the special purpose<br>
                &gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; It seems to me that:<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - Controllers are not particularly re=
source
                constrained: adding a flag per node<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(or even per link!) woul=
d not break any
                scaling behavior.<br>
                &gt; &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - Adding another flag to the IGP alon=
gside
                the RLD is not significant scaling<br>
                &gt; issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling
                but was for adding<br>
                &gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you
                noted above and in the draft,<br>
                &gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the
                following cases every time a<br>
                &gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the
                cases from the draft).<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the la=
bel
                stack, the place in the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; stack is decided based on whether the node=
 where
                the special label<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; gets exposed is capable of popping those
                labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the
                head-end router MUST<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; ensure that the labels are not exposed to t=
he
                nodes that do not<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats=

                labels are removed<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; when they are found at the top of the labe=
l
                stack, the node imposing<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the label stack (the ingress) must know wh=
ich
                nodes are capable of<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<b=
r>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; accounting in such cases it is necessary t=
o
                insert the SR-Path-Stats<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Labels within the Readable Label Stack Dep=
th
                Capability (RLDC) of the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label s=
tack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Iden=
tifier
                for accounting.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the=
 top<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; of the label stack at a node that does not=

                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is cap=
able
                of removing the<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT b=
e
                placed at the bottom of<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the label stack.&nbsp; In this case the SR=
-Path-Stats
                Labels SHOULD be<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; placed at a point in the label stack such t=
hat
                they will be found at<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; the top of stack by the latest node in the=
 SR
                path that is capable of<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.&nbsp;=
 Some
                hardware platforms do<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; not support creating such large label stac=
ks
                (i.e., imposing a large<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; number of labels at once).&nbsp; To overco=
me this
                limitation sub-paths are<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; created within the network, and Binding-SI=
Ds are
                allocated to these<br>
                &gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means c=
ontroller/ ingress
                software need to also create/<br>
                &gt; install sub-paths.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class=3D"HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"h5">spring mailing list<br>
                <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">=
spring@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring=
@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/spring">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

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___________________________</span><br><span>mpls mailing list</span><br><spa=
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Cc: Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de>, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>,  mpls <mpls@ietf.org>,  spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Jeff,

> however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it must not be imposed.

Sorry but ASICs do not work that way ... They are not software with options
which one can enable or not based on their wish of the day.

But if you issue a RFC which complicates things and imposes new hardware
requirements those will result in an avalanche effect on the technology in
question. And I would be very supportive of adding more management and
accounting ability if there would not be already a way to accomplish the
same as described previously in this thread.

Cheers,
Robert.


On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Wrt architecture - don=E2=80=99t think one has to fit all needs. While so=
me
> migrate to SR from IP/LDP environment and pretty happy with what they hav=
e
> got today, others come from a heavy traffic engineered one, with per
> LSP/node counters that are mandatory from a network management
> prospective(and I believe that initial discussion had been triggered by
> such need).
> There=E2=80=99s no free lunch, additional requirements wrt counters will
> inevitably create more state, however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it =
must not
> be imposed.
> If one is willing to deal(pay) with complexity - why shouldn=E2=80=99t th=
e
> technology facilitate it?
>
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
> On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Martin Horneffer <maho@nic.dtag.de> wrote:
>
> +1
>
> In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that Robert got
> good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly agree with the
> observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.
>
> BR, Martin
>
> Am 21.11.17 um 19:34 schrieb Robert Raszuk:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is muc=
h
> bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use
> SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and
> different perspectives of its participants.
>
> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no
> more then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradi=
gm
> (same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of
> IGP segments.
>
> *The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*
>
> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to ad=
d
> only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distributio=
n
> objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analog=
y
> with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it (=
to
> build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a good
> idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last IGP
> segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EP=
E
> but this is different app).
>
> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code an=
d
> only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to en=
d
> for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.
>
> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and
> MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. B=
ut
> this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.
>
> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from
> how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. =
It
> is just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyon=
e
> is using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks
> regardless if this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
> scale they are building :).
>
> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the
> value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments
> when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My
> recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which
> after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replace=
s)
> and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
>> productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to=
 be
>> nailed down.
>>
>> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express tha=
t
>> maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR
>> architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems=
 to
>> be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the
>> manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful
>> architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.
>>
>> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I
>> assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say wh=
at
>> you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably wher=
e
>> you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packe=
ts
>> per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>>
>> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?=
)
>> to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR path=
s
>> that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say
>> whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
>> - not a concern in network management
>> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>>    nodes).
>>
>> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft
>> also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths th=
at
>> are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the
>> landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
>> introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>>
>> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems t=
o
>> have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement =
of
>> "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
>> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
>> > accounting-for-sr-paths
>> >
>> > Hi Adrian,
>> >
>> > Some comments are provided in-line.
>> >
>> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
>> follow-up on the
>> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a
>> webEx call
>> > and discuss it further, offline.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>> >
>> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs)
>> that
>> > breaks SR
>> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>> >     >>
>> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your
>> assertions, above?
>> >     >
>> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths:
>> >     >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special
>> label, read
>> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
>> against such
>> >     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>> >
>> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
>> maintaining many
>> > counters and updating them at line speed.
>> >
>> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
>> accounting in
>> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
>> match
>> > the packet that follows.
>> >
>> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of
>> stack and
>> > hashing on the header of the payload.
>> >
>> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually
>> results from a
>> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you
>> can't
>> > have all three.
>> >
>> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
>> operations but
>> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/
>> egress nodes.
>> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks
>> about needs to
>> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal
>> states in the
>> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
>> following).
>> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for
>> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network
>> fabric. Please
>> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby
>> creating
>> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>> >
>> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
>> network.
>> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
>> proposed in the
>> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>> >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure a=
ll
>> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for eac=
h segment
>> in the SR
>> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
>> times! This is a
>> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>> >
>> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
>> misreading
>> > of our draft.
>> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
>> John did,
>> > that this is our own term).
>> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide
>> a pointer to
>> > the text.
>> >
>> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single cas=
e
>> where the
>> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option
>> is applied.
>> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
>> exaggerating the
>> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually
>> a problem.
>> >
>> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to
>> 3 labels) to
>> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not
>> uncommon.
>> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>> x`x>
>> >   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  T=
he
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label sta=
ck
>> >    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the
>> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this documen=
t.
>> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the t=
op
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capa=
bility and
>> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., th=
e
>> controller
>> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit
>> nodes.
>> >
>> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about th=
e
>> capabilities
>> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the
>> top of the
>> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>> >
>> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is
>> a small RLD.
>> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable
>> correct ECMP
>> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
>> small RLD then
>> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that
>> the
>> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special
>> purpose
>> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>> >
>> > >    It seems to me that:
>> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
>> flag per node
>> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
>> significant scaling
>> > issue.
>> >
>> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
>> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in
>> the draft,
>> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y
>> time a
>> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in t=
he
>> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST
>> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>> >    support them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved
>> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposin=
g
>> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>> >    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stat=
s
>> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of t=
he
>> >    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=
=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found a=
t
>> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable =
of
>> >    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platf=
orms do
>> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a larg=
e
>> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths a=
re
>> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>> >    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress softw=
are need to also
>> create/
>> > install sub-paths.
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing listspring@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/s=
pring
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>

--001a113c383cf36ffc055e98d82a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Jeff,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
2.8px">&gt; however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it must not be imposed.=
</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"=
font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Sorry but ASICs do not work =
that way ... They are not software with options which one can enable or not=
 based on their wish of the day.=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif=
;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.=
8px">But if you issue a RFC which complicates things and imposes new hardwa=
re requirements those will result in an avalanche effect on the technology =
in question. And I would be very supportive of adding more management and a=
ccounting ability if there would not be already a way to accomplish the sam=
e as described previously in this thread.=C2=A0</span></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></spa=
n></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font=
-size:12.8px">Cheers,</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Robert.</span></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></spa=
n></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Jeff Tantsura <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto=
">Wrt architecture - don=E2=80=99t think one has to fit all needs. While so=
me migrate to SR from IP/LDP environment and pretty happy with what they ha=
ve got today, others come from a heavy traffic engineered one, with per LSP=
/node counters that are mandatory from a network management prospective(and=
 I believe that initial discussion had been triggered by such need).<div>Th=
ere=E2=80=99s no free lunch, additional requirements wrt counters will inev=
itably create more state, however if one doesn=E2=80=99t need it, it must n=
ot be imposed.</div><div>If one is willing to deal(pay) with complexity - w=
hy shouldn=E2=80=99t the technology facilitate it?</div><div><br></div><div=
><br><div id=3D"m_-1706617167193872311AppleMailSignature">Regards,<div>Jeff=
</div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Nov 22, 2017, at 08:33, Mart=
in Horneffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maho@nic.dtag.de" target=3D"_blank">maho=
@nic.dtag.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    +1<br>
    <br>
    In other words, I confirm from an operators point of view that
    Robert got good network desing goals quite right. I also perfectly
    agree with the observations concerning the use of RSVP in the past.<br>
    <br>
    BR, Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.11.17 um 19:=
34 schrieb Robert
      Raszuk:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Hi
          Adrian,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">I
          am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think
          there is much bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in
          practice someone will use SR-MPLS and I think this is the root
          cause for this little thread and different perspectives of its
          participants.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">So
          SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs
          are no more then hints on how to steer the packets within
          connection less paradigm (same as IP tunnel so to say with
          less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP segments.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><b><br>
          </b></div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><b>The
            less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b>=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Yes
          that requires to be smart (or to have smart central
          controller) to add only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish
          the network traffic distribution objectives. I clearly see
          folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs,
          but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it
          (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not
          make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see any
          pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to
          domain egress node (with the exception of EPE but this is
          different app).</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">In
          fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping
          code and only very few networks ever deployed it for all
          unicast traffic end to end for many reasons. Most folks used
          it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Now
          as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks
          and MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is
          very useful. But this is not really related to SR-MPLS
          architecture.=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">With
          that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far
          from how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it
          rather problematic. It is just like draft describing use of
          BGP for data centers ... now everyone is using BGP for all
          data centers or even other types of networks regardless if
          this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
          scale they are building :).=C2=A0</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Counters
          are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see
          the value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific
          IGP segments when we are already counting packets arriving via
          given IGP topology. My recommendation would be to solve it for
          MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example
          where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then
          SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small">Robert.</div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian
          Farrel <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.u=
k" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
            <br>
            I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield
            anything productive, but there are a couple of things you&#39;r=
e
            raising that need to be nailed down.<br>
            <br>
            Probably the most important of these is the concern that you
            express that maintaining counters in the network goes
            against the beauty of the SR architecture because it means
            holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a debate
            about the perfection of an architecture versus the
            manageability of the network. Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love a
            beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be
            operated successfully.<br>
            <br>
            So, we should start at the top of the document and work our
            way down. I assume that you don&#39;t have any issues with
            Section 1: it seems to say what you are saying about the
            statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where you start
            to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count
            packets per flow) and sets some requirements on any
            solution.<br>
            <br>
            That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or
            not desirable?) to count packets in an SR network and assign
            those counts to the SR paths that generated those packet
            flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether the
            problem described in Figure 1 is:<br>
            - not a concern in network management<br>
            - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
            =C2=A0 =C2=A0transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counti=
ng<br>
            =C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffi=
c at
            transit<br>
            =C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes).<br>
            <br>
            But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that
            &quot;the draft also talks about needs to break an SR Path into
            sub-paths&quot;. Sub-paths that are achieved through an expansi=
on
            of a Binding SID are just part of the landscape and (of
            course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn&#39;t
            introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.<br>
            <br>
            Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a
            multiplier seems to have gotten out of hand. Why not just
            agree that you original statement of &quot;increased by up to 3=
x&quot;
            was an exaggeration?<br>
            <br>
            Cheers,<br>
            Adrian<br>
            <span><br>
              &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
              &gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@ci=
sco.com" target=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
              &gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
              &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_bl=
ank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br>
              &gt; Cc: &#39;spring&#39;; &#39;mpls&#39;<br>
              &gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels
              in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-<br>
              &gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
              &gt;<br>
            </span>
            <div>
              <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering
                tread die and follow-up on the<br>
                &gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will
                be happy to have a webEx call<br>
                &gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Thanks<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk<=
/a>&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths)
                that<br>
                &gt; breaks SR<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly u=
nscalable
                and complicated to implement.<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any=
 evidence to
                justify any of your assertions, above?<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that in
                draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths:<br=
>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The tra=
nsit node needs to be able to
                recognize the special label, read<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the=
 SR Path Identification label
                and update the counter against such<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=
=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing =
devices
                are capable of maintaining many<br>
                &gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix=
 is a
                process used for accounting in<br>
                &gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom
                of stack and then match<br>
                &gt; the packet that follows.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) inv=
olve
                finding the bottom of stack and<br>
                &gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either
                mechanism. This usually results from a<br>
                &gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and
                features. Generally you can&#39;t<br>
                &gt; have all three.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able
                to perform such operations but<br>
                &gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no
                states at the transit/ egress nodes.<br>
                &gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the
                draft also talks about needs to<br>
                &gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby crea=
ting
                yet additional states in the<br>
                &gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on
                this in the following).<br>
                &gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the
                architecture calls for<br>
                &gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity
                in the network fabric. Please<br>
                &gt; also note that a network may have a large number of
                SR Path, thereby creating<br>
                &gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node
                protection in the network.<br>
                &gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to
                implement procedure proposed in the<br>
                &gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 described in this document for traffic
                accounting and with node-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection enabled in the network, it is
                RECOMMENDED to make sure all<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the nodes in the network support the exte=
nsion.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The dra=
ft proposes to push (up to) 3
                Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pat=
h. That means that label stack
                is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ser=
ious a scaling issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you prov=
ided a
                misunderstanding or misreading<br>
                &gt; of our draft.<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 =
labels
                per SR Path (noting as John did,<br>
                &gt; that this is our own term).<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps=
 you
                could retract or provide a pointer to<br>
                &gt; the text.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times=
&quot; applies
                only with the single case where the<br>
                &gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the
                three label option is applied.<br>
                &gt; So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true, it is clearly (a=
nd
                wilfully?) exaggerating the<br>
                &gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0
                4-label stack is actually a problem.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; There are many scenarios that will require
                SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to 3 labels) to<br>
                &gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These
                scenarios are not uncommon.<br>
                &gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            x`x&gt;<br>
            <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311h5">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=
=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert
                the SR-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label=
 stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Ide=
ntifier
                for accounting.=C2=A0 The<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multi=
ple
                times in the label stack<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this=
 feature
                when not all the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the network support the extensio=
ns
                defined in this document.<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In such scenarios, the special labels MUS=
T NOT
                get exposed on the top<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does no=
t
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may =
require
                multiple blocks of SR-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the p=
acket
                header.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to ke=
ep track of
                transit node capability and<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push=
 the additional per-path labels,
                accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also=
 needs to maintain such
                information for the transit nodes.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingres=
s only
                needs to care about the capabilities<br>
                &gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special
                purpose label reaches the top of the<br>
                &gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node =
issue
                arises is when there is a small RLD.<br>
                &gt; That information may need to be known by the
                controller to enable correct ECMP<br>
                &gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accou=
nting
                at transit nodes with a small RLD then<br>
                &gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and
                *that* means that the<br>
                &gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the
                network the special purpose<br>
                &gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly r=
esource
                constrained: adding a flag per node<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) wou=
ld not break any
                scaling behavior.<br>
                &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alo=
ngside
                the RLD is not significant scaling<br>
                &gt; issue.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling
                but was for adding<br>
                &gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you
                noted above and in the draft,<br>
                &gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the
                following cases every time a<br>
                &gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the
                cases from the draft).<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the l=
abel
                stack, the place in the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stack is decided based on whether the nod=
e where
                the special label<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 gets exposed is capable of popping those
                labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the
                head-end router MUST<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ensure that the labels are not exposed to=
 the
                nodes that do not<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stat=
s
                labels are removed<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when they are found at the top of the lab=
el
                stack, the node imposing<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack (the ingress) must know w=
hich
                nodes are capable of<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<=
br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 accounting in such cases it is necessary =
to
                insert the SR-Path-Stats<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Labels within the Readable Label Stack De=
pth
                Capability (RLDC) of the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label=
 stack
                such that the nodes<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Ide=
ntifier
                for accounting.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on th=
e top<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does no=
t
                support the extensions<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is ca=
pable
                of removing the<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT =
be
                placed at the bottom of<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the S=
R-Path-Stats
                Labels SHOULD be<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 placed at a point in the label stack such=
 that
                they will be found at<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the top of stack by the latest node in th=
e SR
                path that is capable of<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=
=A0 Some
                hardware platforms do<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support creating such large label sta=
cks
                (i.e., imposing a large<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overc=
ome this
                limitation sub-paths are<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 created within the network, and Binding-S=
IDs are
                allocated to these<br>
                &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means=
 controller/ ingress
                software need to also create/<br>
                &gt; install sub-paths.<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                &gt;<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311HOEnZb">
              <div class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311h5">spring mailing list<b=
r>
                <a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring=
@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istin=
fo/spring</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311mimeAttachmentHeader"></fiel=
dset>
      <br>
      <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
spring mailing list
<a class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:=
spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"m_-1706617167193872311moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/<wbr>listinfo/spring</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote></div></div><span class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><s=
pan>mpls mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
<wbr>listinfo/mpls</a></span><br></div></blockquote></span></div></div></bl=
ockquote></div><br></div>

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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>
CC: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org" <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 04:02:00 +0000
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
CC: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
CC: draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths <draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-spring-oam-usecase@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [spring] [mpls] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 04:24:17 +0000
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:54:10 -0800
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, spring <spring@ietf.org>,  "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-paths
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Hi Carlos.
you've stated: "Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data
plane realization. IPFIX for the rest."
Do you believe that this combination, iOAM and IPFIX, addresses all SR
requirements towards OAM? That there's no need for any other tool in the SR
OAM toolbox?

Regards,
Greg

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 8:11 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> [Sorry for jumping late to this thread! A couple of quick observations.]
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> . I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with ERO=
s
>
>
> [and]
>
> On Nov 16, 2017, at 5:48 AM, stephane.litkowski@orange.com wrote:
>
>
> Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS dataplane) ha=
s
> limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE without
> adding too much complexity).
>
>
> I think this is the key, let=E2=80=99s not ATM-ify the OAM uses for SR (M=
PLS or
> IPv6).
>
> On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Especially iOAM is very useful.
>
>
> Yes!
>
> Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data plane
> realization. IPFIX for the rest.
>
> On Nov 16, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Zafar, et.al,
> as I'm the one who have started the thread I'd like to clarify and
> reiterate my point Performance measurements are required not only e2e but
> on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on that, then we a=
re
> ready to discuss how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.
>
>
> I believe trying to RSVP-TE-ify the path characteristics, or inventing
> SR-MPLS-TP is not a good idea.
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94
> Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com
>
> On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is muc=
h
> bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use
> SR-MPLS and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and
> different perspectives of its participants.
>
> So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no
> more then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradi=
gm
> (same as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of
> IGP segments.
>
> *The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !*
>
> Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to ad=
d
> only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distributio=
n
> objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analog=
y
> with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally wrong. Only that you can do it (=
to
> build SR-MPLS paths all the way via your domain) does not make it a good
> idea. No where in SR architecture I see any pre-asssumption that last IGP
> segment will be connected to domain egress node (with the exception of EP=
E
> but this is different app).
>
> In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code an=
d
> only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to en=
d
> for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.
>
> Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and
> MPLS-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. B=
ut
> this is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.
>
> With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from
> how SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. =
It
> is just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyon=
e
> is using BGP for all data centers or even other types of networks
> regardless if this is even applicable or best choice for a given cluster
> scale they are building :).
>
> Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the
> value for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments
> when we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My
> recommendation would be to solve it for MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which
> after all is one example where flooding domain wide labels in IGP replace=
s)
> and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same solution.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything
>> productive, but there are a couple of things you're raising that need to=
 be
>> nailed down.
>>
>> Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express tha=
t
>> maintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR
>> architecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems=
 to
>> be a debate about the perfection of an architecture versus the
>> manageability of the network. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful
>> architecture, but only if the network can be operated successfully.
>>
>> So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I
>> assume that you don't have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say wh=
at
>> you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably wher=
e
>> you start to be unhappy: it sets an objective (to be able to count packe=
ts
>> per flow) and sets some requirements on any solution.
>>
>> That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?=
)
>> to count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR path=
s
>> that generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say
>> whether the problem described in Figure 1 is:
>> - not a concern in network management
>> - can be solved by other means without counting traffic at
>>    transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting
>>    traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit
>>    nodes).
>>
>> But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that "the draft
>> also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths". Sub-paths th=
at
>> are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of the
>> landscape and (of course) thy have to be coped with. The draft doesn't
>> introduce sub-paths, it just observes that they exist.
>>
>> Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems t=
o
>> have gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement =
of
>> "increased by up to 3x" was an exaggeration?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Adrian
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:zali@cisco.com]
>> > Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36
>> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>> > Cc: 'spring'; 'mpls'
>> > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in
>> draft-hegde-spring-traffic-
>> > accounting-for-sr-paths
>> >
>> > Hi Adrian,
>> >
>> > Some comments are provided in-line.
>> >
>> > Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and
>> follow-up on the
>> > next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a
>> webEx call
>> > and discuss it further, offline.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
>> >
>> > On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     >>> procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-accounting-for-sr-pat=
hs)
>> that
>> > breaks SR
>> >     >>> Architecture, highly unscalable and complicated to implement.
>> >     >>
>> >     >> [JD]  Do you have any evidence to justify any of your
>> assertions, above?
>> >     >
>> >     > Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic-acc
>> ounting-for-sr-paths:
>> >     >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The transit node needs to be able to recognize the =
special
>> label, read
>> >     >        the SR Path Identification label and update the counter
>> against such
>> >     >        =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=80=9D.
>> >
>> > >    Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capable of
>> maintaining many
>> > counters and updating them at line speed.
>> >
>> > >    Several people have noted that ipfix is a process used for
>> accounting in
>> > networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then
>> match
>> > the packet that follows.
>> >
>> > >    Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the bottom of
>> stack and
>> > hashing on the header of the payload.
>> >
>> > >    Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This usually
>> results from a
>> > trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you
>> can't
>> > have all three.
>> >
>> > The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such
>> operations but
>> > regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/
>> egress nodes.
>> > In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks
>> about needs to
>> > break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal
>> states in the
>> > network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the
>> following).
>> > Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for
>> > simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network
>> fabric. Please
>> > also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby
>> creating
>> > another dimension for scaling limitations.
>> >
>> > The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the
>> network.
>> > The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure
>> proposed in the
>> > document; I am quoting from the draft.
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions
>> >    described in this document for traffic accounting and with node-
>> >    protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to make sure a=
ll
>> >    the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >     > =E2=80=A2    The draft proposes to push (up to) 3 Labels for eac=
h segment
>> in the SR
>> >     >        Path. That means that label stack is increased up to 3x
>> times! This is a
>> >     >        serious a scaling issue.
>> >
>> > >    John asked for evidence and you provided a misunderstanding or
>> misreading
>> > of our draft.
>> > >    The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Path (noting as
>> John did,
>> > that this is our own term).
>> > >    That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retract or provide
>> a pointer to
>> > the text.
>> >
>> > >    Thus, "increased up to 3x times" applies only with the single cas=
e
>> where the
>> > imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option
>> is applied.
>> > So, while  what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?)
>> exaggerating the
>> > severity of impact, and it is doubtful that  4-label stack is actually
>> a problem.
>> >
>> > There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to
>> 3 labels) to
>> > be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not
>> uncommon.
>> > The following scenarios as noted in the draft.
>> x`x>
>> >   =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.  T=
he
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the label sta=
ck
>> >    of a packet.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >  =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when not all=
 the
>> >    nodes in the network support the extensions defined in this documen=
t.
>> >    In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the t=
op
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.  This may require multiple blocks of SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > > =E2=80=A2    The controller needs to keep track of transit node capa=
bility and
>> >     >       push the additional per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., th=
e
>> controller
>> >     >       also needs to maintain such information for the transit
>> nodes.
>> >
>> > >    In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to care about th=
e
>> capabilities
>> > of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the
>> top of the
>> > stack it has to be able to handle it.
>> >
>> > >    The only time when the transit node issue arises is when there is
>> a small RLD.
>> > That information may need to be known by the controller to enable
>> correct ECMP
>> > behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.
>> > >    If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit nodes with a
>> small RLD then
>> > the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that
>> the
>> > controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special
>> purpose
>> > label will rise to the top of the stack.
>> >
>> > >    It seems to me that:
>> > >    - Controllers are not particularly resource constrained: adding a
>> flag per node
>> > >       (or even per link!) would not break any scaling behavior.
>> > >    - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD is not
>> significant scaling
>> > issue.
>> >
>> > The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding
>> > complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in
>> the draft,
>> > controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y
>> time a
>> > path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node
>> >    inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the place in t=
he
>> >    stack is decided based on whether the node where the special label
>> >    gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST
>> >    ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that do not
>> >    support them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved
>> >    when they are found at the top of the label stack, the node imposin=
g
>> >    the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are capable of
>> >    stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic
>> >    accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR-Path-Stat=
s
>> >    Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (RLDC) of t=
he
>> >    nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-
>> >    Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that the nodes
>> >    in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for accounting.=E2=
=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top
>> >    of the label stack at a node that does not support the extensions
>> >    defined in this document.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the
>> >    SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the bottom of
>> >    the label stack.  In this case the SR-Path-Stats Labels SHOULD be
>> >    placed at a point in the label stack such that they will be found a=
t
>> >    the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that is capable =
of
>> >    removing them. =E2=80=9C
>> >
>> > =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.  Some hardware platf=
orms do
>> >    not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., imposing a larg=
e
>> >    number of labels at once).  To overcome this limitation sub-paths a=
re
>> >    created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocated to these
>> >    sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ingress softw=
are need to also
>> create/
>> > install sub-paths.
>> >
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Carlos.<div>you&#39;ve stated: &quot;<span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.8px">Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data pla=
ne realization. IPFIX for the rest.&quot;</span></div><div><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px">Do you believe that this combination, iOAM and IPFIX, addr=
esses all SR requirements towards OAM? That there&#39;s no need for any oth=
er tool in the SR OAM toolbox?</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Regards,</span=
></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Greg</span></div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at =
8:11 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
[Sorry for jumping late to this thread! A couple of quick observations.]
<span class=3D""><div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">=C2=A0</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy with EROs<=
/div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</span><div>[and]</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div>On Nov 16, 2017, at 5:48 AM, <a href=3D"mailto:stephane.litkowski@oran=
ge.com" target=3D"_blank">
stephane.litkowski@orange.com</a> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:11pt">=C2=A0</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:11pt">Robert mentioned correctly that SR-TE (especially with MPLS datapla=
ne) has limited TE features (we cannot mimic all what RSVP does in SRTE wit=
hout adding too
 much complexity).</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482WordSection1">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,serif">
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><div>I think this is the key, let=E2=80=99s not ATM-ify the OAM uses=
 for SR (MPLS or IPv6).</div><span class=3D"">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">=C2=A0</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr"></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</span><div><span class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Especially iOAM is very useful.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div></span>
Yes!=C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Because it piggy-backs on data without altering the data plane realiza=
tion. IPFIX for the rest.<span class=3D""><br>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>On Nov 16, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
>
<br class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Hi Zafar,=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://et.al/" target=3D"_blank=
">et.al</a>,=C2=A0
<div dir=3D"auto">as I&#39;m the one who have started the thread I&#39;d li=
ke to clarify and reiterate my point Performance measurements are required =
not only e2e but on a span, i.e. SPME, using MPLS-TO lingo. If we agree on =
that, then we are ready to discuss
 how to support these measurements in SR-MPLS.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I believe trying to RSVP-TE-ify the path characteristics,=
 or inventing SR-MPLS-TP is not a good idea.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Thanks,</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
=E2=80=94<br>
Carlos Pignataro,=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
">carlos@cisco.com</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rober=
t@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Hi Adrian,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
I am not going to defend beauty of any architecture. I think there is much =
bigger fundamental misunderstanding how in practice someone will use SR-MPL=
S and I think this is the root cause for this little thread and different p=
erspectives of its participants.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
So SR-MPLS is not RSVP-TE and there is no EROs. The set of SIDs are no more=
 then hints on how to steer the packets within connection less paradigm (sa=
me as IP tunnel so to say with less encap overhead) via one or more of IGP =
segments.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<b><br>
</b></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<b>The less SIDs you add to the packet the better !</b>=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Yes that requires to be smart (or to have smart central controller) to add =
only a very few labels/SIDs to accomplish the network traffic distribution =
objectives. I clearly see folks thinking of SR-MPLS like a RSVP-TE analogy =
with EROs, but this is IMO fundamentally
 wrong. Only that you can do it (to build SR-MPLS paths all the way via you=
r domain) does not make it a good idea. No where in SR architecture I see a=
ny pre-asssumption that last IGP segment will be connected to domain egress=
 node (with the exception of EPE
 but this is different app).</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
In fact as some may recall we are 17 years after RSVP-TE shipping code and =
only very few networks ever deployed it for all unicast traffic end to end =
for many reasons. Most folks used it for FRR or for hot spot bypass.=C2=A0<=
/div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Now as far as OAM sure it is great to have it both for IP networks and MPLS=
-LDP networks and SR-MPLS networks. Especially iOAM is very useful. But thi=
s is not really related to SR-MPLS architecture.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
With that I think the draft makes set of assumptions which are far from how=
 SR-MPLS should be deployed and this does make it rather problematic. It is=
 just like draft describing use of BGP for data centers ... now everyone is=
 using BGP for all data centers
 or even other types of networks regardless if this is even applicable or b=
est choice for a given cluster scale they are building :).=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Counters are great, more counters are even better, but I fail to see the va=
lue for yet again counting traffic arriving via specific IGP segments when =
we are already counting packets arriving via given IGP topology. My recomme=
ndation would be to solve it for
 MPLS-LDP in MPLS WG first (which after all is one example where flooding d=
omain wide labels in IGP replaces) and then SR-MPLS will inherit the same s=
olution.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Cheers,</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
Robert.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 6:56 PM, Adrian Farrel <=
span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.=
co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi,<br>
<br>
I understand that you doubt that this thread will yield anything productive=
, but there are a couple of things you&#39;re raising that need to be naile=
d down.<br>
<br>
Probably the most important of these is the concern that you express that m=
aintaining counters in the network goes against the beauty of the SR archit=
ecture because it means holding state at transit nodes. This seems to be a =
debate about the perfection of an
 architecture versus the manageability of the network. Don&#39;t get me wro=
ng, I love a beautiful architecture, but only if the network can be operate=
d successfully.<br>
<br>
So, we should start at the top of the document and work our way down. I ass=
ume that you don&#39;t have any issues with Section 1: it seems to say what=
 you are saying about the statelessness of SR. Section 2 is probably where =
you start to be unhappy: it sets an
 objective (to be able to count packets per flow) and sets some requirement=
s on any solution.<br>
<br>
That is, I think you believe that it is not necessary (or not desirable?) t=
o count packets in an SR network and assign those counts to the SR paths th=
at generated those packet flows. So the challenge for you is to say whether=
 the problem described in Figure
 1 is:<br>
- not a concern in network management<br>
- can be solved by other means without counting traffic at<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0transit nodes (Note Well that other ways of counting<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0traffic at transit nodes are still counting traffic at transit=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes).<br>
<br>
But one other point I want to pick up on is your claim that &quot;the draft=
 also talks about needs to break an SR Path into sub-paths&quot;. Sub-paths=
 that are achieved through an expansion of a Binding SID are just part of t=
he landscape and (of course) thy have to be
 coped with. The draft doesn&#39;t introduce sub-paths, it just observes th=
at they exist.<br>
<br>
Lastly, the conversation on the number of labels as a multiplier seems to h=
ave gotten out of hand. Why not just agree that you original statement of &=
quot;increased by up to 3x&quot; was an exaggeration?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Adrian<br>
<span><br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Zafar Ali (zali) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zali@cisco.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">zali@cisco.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: 20 November 2017 23:36<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@ol=
ddog.co.uk</a><br>
&gt; Cc: &#39;spring&#39;; &#39;mpls&#39;<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Special purpose labels in draft-hegde-spr=
ing-traffic-<br>
&gt; accounting-for-sr-paths<br>
&gt;<br>
</span>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482h5">&gt; Hi Adrian,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Some comments are provided in-line.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that, we all want to let this lingering tread die and foll=
ow-up on the<br>
&gt; next steps noted during this email exchange. I will be happy to have a=
 webEx call<br>
&gt; and discuss it further, offline.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 11/18/17, 9:08 AM, &quot;Adrian Farrel&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
adrian@olddog.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure (in draft-hegde-spring-traff=
ic-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths) that<br>
&gt; breaks SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Architecture, highly unscalable and co=
mplicated to implement.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; [JD]=C2=A0 Do you have any evidence to jus=
tify any of your assertions, above?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Please note that in draft-hegde-spring-traffic=
-acc<wbr>ounting-for-sr-paths:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The transit node needs =
to be able to recognize the special label, read<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the SR Path Identif=
ication label and update the counter against such<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cstates=E2=
=80=9D.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Possibly worth noting that existing devices are capa=
ble of maintaining many<br>
&gt; counters and updating them at line speed.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Several people have noted that ipfix is a process us=
ed for accounting in<br>
&gt; networks. That approach may have to find the bottom of stack and then =
match<br>
&gt; the packet that follows.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Other approaches (e.g., to ECMP) involve finding the=
 bottom of stack and<br>
&gt; hashing on the header of the payload.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some hardware cannot perform either mechanism. This =
usually results from a<br>
&gt; trade between low cost, high performance, and features. Generally you =
can&#39;t<br>
&gt; have all three.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The question is not about if the hardware is able to perform such oper=
ations but<br>
&gt; regarding breaking the very beauty of SR =E2=80=93 no states at the tr=
ansit/ egress nodes.<br>
&gt; In the context of label stack size explosion, the draft also talks abo=
ut needs to<br>
&gt; break an SR Path into sub-paths =E2=80=93 thereby creating yet additio=
nal states in the<br>
&gt; network for accounting reasons (see more detail on this in the followi=
ng).<br>
&gt; Furthermore, SR-MPLS is designed for SDN =E2=80=93 the architecture ca=
lls for<br>
&gt; simplification of the network not adding complexity in the network fab=
ric. Please<br>
&gt; also note that a network may have a large number of SR Path, thereby c=
reating<br>
&gt; another dimension for scaling limitations.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The proposed procedure also does not work for node protection in the n=
etwork.<br>
&gt; The draft essentially calls for ALL nodes to implement procedure propo=
sed in the<br>
&gt; document; I am quoting from the draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen using extensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 described in this document for traffic accounting and wit=
h node-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection enabled in the network, it is RECOMMENDED to m=
ake sure all<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the nodes in the network support the extension.=E2=80=9D<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The draft proposes to p=
ush (up to) 3 Labels for each segment in the SR<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path. That means th=
at label stack is increased up to 3x times! This is a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 serious a scaling i=
ssue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 John asked for evidence and you provided a misunders=
tanding or misreading<br>
&gt; of our draft.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The document proposes adding 2 or 3 labels per SR Pa=
th (noting as John did,<br>
&gt; that this is our own term).<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That is not what you say, so perhaps you could retra=
ct or provide a pointer to<br>
&gt; the text.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thus, &quot;increased up to 3x times&quot; applies o=
nly with the single case where the<br>
&gt; imposed label stack has exactly one label *and* the three label option=
 is applied.<br>
&gt; So, while=C2=A0 what you say is true, it is clearly (and wilfully?) ex=
aggerating the<br>
&gt; severity of impact, and it is doubtful that=C2=A0 4-label stack is act=
ually a problem.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are many scenarios that will require SR-Path-Stats Labels (up to=
 3 labels) to<br>
&gt; be present multiple times in the label stack. These scenarios are not =
uncommon.<br>
&gt; The following scenarios as noted in the draft.<br>
</div>
</div>
x`x&gt;<br>
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482h5">&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CThe head-=
end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels may be present multiple times in the=
 label stack<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of a packet.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CIt is possible to partially deploy this feature when no=
t all the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the network support the extensions defined in th=
is document.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In such scenarios, the special labels MUST NOT get expose=
d on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=C2=A0 This may require multiple=
 blocks of SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels to be inserted in the packet header.=E2=
=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The controller needs to keep track of tran=
sit node capability and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0push the additional =
per-path labels, accordingly. I.e., the controller<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also needs to mainta=
in such information for the transit nodes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In most cases, the controller/ingress only needs to =
care about the capabilities<br>
&gt; of the egress nodes. That is, if the special purpose label reaches the=
 top of the<br>
&gt; stack it has to be able to handle it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only time when the transit node issue arises is =
when there is a small RLD.<br>
&gt; That information may need to be known by the controller to enable corr=
ect ECMP<br>
&gt; behavior, and it is distributed in the IGP.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If there is a desire to enable accounting at transit=
 nodes with a small RLD then<br>
&gt; the Path ID can be inserted higher up the stack and *that* means that =
the<br>
&gt; controller has to be sensitive as to where in the network the special =
purpose<br>
&gt; label will rise to the top of the stack.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to me that:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Controllers are not particularly resource constrai=
ned: adding a flag per node<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(or even per link!) would not break any=
 scaling behavior.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Adding another flag to the IGP alongside the RLD i=
s not significant scaling<br>
&gt; issue.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The comment here was not so much related to scaling but was for adding=
<br>
&gt; complexity to the controller/ ingress node. As you noted above and in =
the draft,<br>
&gt; controller/ Ingress node needs to worry about the following cases ever=
y time a<br>
&gt; path needs to be computed (quoting some of the cases from the draft).<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhen the head-end node<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 inserts the SR-Path-Stats labels in the label stack, the =
place in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stack is decided based on whether the node where the spec=
ial label<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 gets exposed is capable of popping those labels.=E2=80=9D=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CWhile inserting the SR-Path-Stats labels, the head-end router=
 MUST<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ensure that the labels are not exposed to the nodes that =
do not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CBecause it is necessary that the SR-Path-Stats labels are rem=
oved<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when they are found at the top of the label stack, the no=
de imposing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack (the ingress) must know which nodes are c=
apable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the labels.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In RLDC limitation cases, =E2=80=9CTo support traffic<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 accounting in such cases it is necessary to insert the SR=
-Path-Stats<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Labels within the Readable Label Stack Depth Capability (=
RLDC) of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes in the SR path.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe head-end node SHOULD insert the SR-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Path-Stats Labels at a depth in the label stack such that=
 the nodes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the SR path can access the SR-Path-Identifier for acco=
unting.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CThe special labels MUST NOT get exposed on the top<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the label stack at a node that does not support the ex=
tensions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in this document.=E2=80=9D<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CIf the egress has not indicated that it is capable of removin=
g the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SR-Path-Stats Labels, then they MUST NOT be placed at the=
 bottom of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the label stack.=C2=A0 In this case the SR-Path-Stats Lab=
els SHOULD be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 placed at a point in the label stack such that they will =
be found at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the top of stack by the latest node in the SR path that i=
s capable of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 removing them. =E2=80=9C<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =E2=80=9CSR paths may require large label stacks.=C2=A0 Some hardware =
platforms do<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not support creating such large label stacks (i.e., impos=
ing a large<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number of labels at once).=C2=A0 To overcome this limitat=
ion sub-paths are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 created within the network, and Binding-SIDs are allocate=
d to these<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sub-paths.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 which means controller/ ing=
ress software need to also create/<br>
&gt; install sub-paths.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;snip&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<div class=3D"m_-1795313693025414482h5">spring mailing list<br>
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 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/spring</a><br=
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
spring mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">spring@ietf.org</a><br=
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring" target=3D"_blank">=
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CC: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 18:07:38 -0800
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To: "Faisal Iqbal (faiqbal)" <faiqbal@cisco.com>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>,  "draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg@ietf.org" <draft-zheng-mpls-lsp-ping-yang-cfg@ietf.org>
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Hi Faisal,
apologies for the delay to respond to your thorough review of the MPLS LSP
ping data model and great comments. Please find my answers and notes
in-line and tagged GIM>>.
I'm looking forward to be working with you as co-author on this draft. Hope
you'll agree.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Faisal Iqbal (faiqbal) <faiqbal@cisco.com>
wrote:

> Dear Authors,
>
> Thank you for initiating the work on Yang Model for LSP Ping and sharing
> your draft. I have gone through the document and find it very useful and
> important work item. Please see below for some comments on the document.
> I=E2=80=99m still a beginner in Yang modeling so I apologize if I=E2=80=
=99m missing
> something obvious or well-understood.
>
>
>
> Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I think the document aims to specify various existing M=
PLS OAM
> targets (including P2MP) through a combination of target-fec-type and
> target-fec structure. Is my understanding correct?
>
GIM>> Yes, you're absolutely correct.

>
>
> Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I did not find a way to specify some important paramete=
rs in the
> container control-info that operators can use to control echo request pat=
h
> or other parameters. Specifically:
>
> i.                 Operator should be allowed to specify RSVP interface
> by tunnel name as well. For some operators, name may be more meaningful
> than tunnel number.
>
GIM>> I think we may use tunnel-ref and tunnel-p2mp-ref defined
in draft-ietf-teas-yang-te.
GIM>> And extending your suggestion, should it be for other FECs, for
example, static?

> ii.                A field to provide a destination address in 127/8
> range.
>
> iii.               An option to specify a range of destination addresses
> to test e.g. give destination start address 127.0.0.1 and end address
> 127.0.0.8, system will initiate 8 echo requests correspondingly.
>
GIM>> I like the idea to provide optional controls over entropy of LSP
Ping. These may be useful not only for LSP Ping but BFD over MPLS LSP.

> iv.               Given that TTL is a field in the container
> control-info, I feel that operator should be given an option to specify
> whether or not to use Downstream Detailed Mapping (DDMAP) TLV, or even th=
e
> deprecated DSMAP TLV.
>
> v.                Operator should also be allowed to specify DDMAP TLV
> sub-TLV fields such as the presence, type, and size of multipath TLV.
>
GIM>> Agree. And what the defaults could be?

>
>
> Sec 3.3 =E2=80=93 I had following questions about the result-info structu=
re.
>
> i.                 If the echo reply contains a TLV (e.g. DDMAP TLV for
> request to a transit node), how will we communicate that information to t=
he
> user? Operator may use LSP Ping to identify downstream path(s) from a
> particular downstream node.
>
> ii.                What does probe-index refer to?
>
GIM>> Index of an LSP ping within a test session.

>
>
> Sec 6 =E2=80=93 For target-fec-type, is there a way for operator to speci=
fy a
> particular control plane or FEC (as defined in RFC-8029 e.g. LDP, Generic
> FEC etc.) to be used for echo request?
>
GIM>> It must be extended, agreed. I think it is r/w. Not?


> Does this document only tackle LSP Ping operation? Would other echo
> request operations such as LSP Traceroute for LSP path discovery be
> documented separately?
>
GIM>> Great observation! Traceroute should be supported. Path discovery?

>
>
Some minor editorial comments below.
>
> -=E2=80=9CModel presented in [RFC4560];=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CMode=
l presented in[RFC4560]
> ;=E2=80=9D in Section 1.2
>
> -Text in Section 3 should read =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and result information f=
or multiple
> instances of LSP-Ping test.=E2=80=9D Instead of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and res=
ult information for multi
> instances of LSP-Ping test.=E2=80=9D
>
> - "IETF Multiprotocol=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9C"IETF Multiprotocl=E2=
=80=9D in Section 6.
>
> -Description for enum success should read =E2=80=9CThe test probe is succ=
essful=E2=80=9D
> instead =E2=80=9CThe test probe is successed=E2=80=9D
>
> -Description for leaf sum-of-squares in Section 6 should read =E2=80=9Cre=
plies=E2=80=9D
> instead of =E2=80=9Creplys=E2=80=9D
>
GIM>> Thank you, Faisal. Will include in the next update.


>
>
> Regards,
>
> Faisal Iqbal
>

--94eb2c1ce7fa97aca7055f15993e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Faisal,<div>apologies for the delay to respond to your =
thorough review of the MPLS LSP ping data model and great comments. Please =
find my answers and notes in-line and tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div>I&#39;m=
 looking forward to be working with you as co-author on this draft. Hope yo=
u&#39;ll agree.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 a=
t 2:27 PM, Faisal Iqbal (faiqbal) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:f=
aiqbal@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">faiqbal@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467WordSection1=
">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Authors,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you for initiating the work on Yang Model for =
LSP Ping and sharing your draft. I have gone through the document and find =
it very useful and important work item. Please see below for some comments =
on the document. I=E2=80=99m still a beginner
 in Yang modeling so I apologize if I=E2=80=99m missing something obvious o=
r well-understood.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I think the document aims to speci=
fy various existing MPLS OAM targets (including P2MP) through a combination=
 of target-fec-type and target-fec structure. Is my understanding correct?<=
/p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, you&#39;re absolutely cor=
rect.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467=
WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.1 =E2=80=93 I did not find a way to specify so=
me important parameters in the container control-info that operators can us=
e to control echo request path or other parameters. Specifically:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>i.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Operator should be allowed to specify RSVP interface b=
y tunnel name as well. For some operators, name may be more meaningful than=
 tunnel number.</p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I think we may=
 use tunnel-ref and tunnel-p2mp-ref defined in=C2=A0draft-ietf-teas-yang-te=
.</div><div>GIM&gt;&gt; And extending your suggestion, should it be for oth=
er FECs, for example, static?</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_=
8644172320422360467WordSection1"><p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_=
8644172320422360467MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in"><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>ii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>A field to provide a destination address in 127/8 rang=
e.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>iii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-=
weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-fam=
ily:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>An option to specify a range of destination addresses =
to test e.g. give destination start address 127.0.0.1 and end address 127.0=
.0.8, system will initiate 8 echo requests correspondingly.</p></div></div>=
</blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I like the idea to provide optional controls =
over entropy of LSP Ping. These may be useful not only for LSP Ping but BFD=
 over MPLS LSP.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_864417232=
0422360467WordSection1"><p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_864417232=
0422360467MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>iv.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Given that TTL is a field in the container control-inf=
o, I feel that operator should be given an option to specify whether or not=
 to use Downstream Detailed Mapping (DDMAP) TLV, or even the deprecated DSM=
AP TLV.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>v.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>Operator should also be allowed to specify DDMAP TLV s=
ub-TLV fields such as the presence, type, and size of multipath TLV.</p></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Agree. And what the defaults could b=
e?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467W=
ordSection1"><p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467M=
soListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 3.3 =E2=80=93 I had following questions about th=
e result-info structure.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>i.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-famil=
y:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>If the echo reply contains a TLV (e.g. DDMAP TLV for r=
equest to a transit node), how will we communicate that information to the =
user? Operator may use LSP Ping to identify downstream path(s) from a parti=
cular downstream node.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagra=
ph" style=3D"margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>ii.<span style=3D"font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:7pt;line-height:normal;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span><u></u>What does probe-index refer to?</p></div></div></block=
quote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Index of an LSP ping within a test session.</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div cla=
ss=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467WordSection1"><p cla=
ss=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467MsoListParagraph" st=
yle=3D"margin-left:0.75in"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sec 6 =E2=80=93 For target-fec-type, is there a way =
for operator to specify a particular control plane or FEC (as defined in RF=
C-8029 e.g. LDP, Generic FEC etc.) to be used for echo request?</p></div></=
div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; It must be extended, agreed. I think it i=
s r/w. Not?</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644=
172320422360467WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<br>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does this document only tackle LSP Ping operation? W=
ould other echo request operations such as LSP Traceroute for LSP path disc=
overy be documented separately?</p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt=
; Great observation! Traceroute should be supported. Path discovery?</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div c=
lass=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-435688810=
7399098995gmail-m_8644172320422360467WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some minor editorial comments below.<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-=E2=80=9CModel presented in [RFC4560];=E2=80=9D ins=
tead of =E2=80=9CModel presented in[RFC4560] ;=E2=80=9D in Section 1.2<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Text in Section 3 should read =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and=
 result information for multiple instances of LSP-Ping test.=E2=80=9D Inste=
ad of =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6and result information for multi instances of LSP-P=
ing test.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- &quot;IETF Multiprotocol=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=
=80=9C&quot;IETF Multiprotocl=E2=80=9D in Section 6.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Description for enum success should read =E2=80=9CT=
he test probe is successful=E2=80=9D instead =E2=80=9CThe test probe is suc=
cessed=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Description for leaf sum-of-squares in Section 6 sh=
ould read =E2=80=9Creplies=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Creplys=E2=80=9D</p>=
</div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you, Faisal. Will include i=
n the next update.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-4356888107399098995gma=
il-m_8644172320422360467WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Faisal Iqbal<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c1ce7fa97aca7055f15993e--


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--_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C9279817B152NKGEML515MBXchi_--


From nobody Thu Nov 30 00:36:38 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Multiprotocol Label Switching WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Label Switched Path (LSP) Ping/Trace Multipath Support for Link Aggregation Group (LAG) Interfaces
        Authors         : Nobo Akiya
                          George Swallow
                          Stephane Litkowski
                          Bruno Decraene
                          John E. Drake
                          Mach(Guoyi) Chen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2017-11-30

Abstract:
   This document defines an extension to the MPLS Label Switched Path
   (LSP) Ping and Traceroute as specified in RFC 8029.  The extension
   allows the MPLS LSP Ping and Traceroute to discover and exercise
   specific paths of Layer 2 (L2) Equal-Cost Multipath (ECMP) over Link
   Aggregation Group (LAG) interfaces.

   This document updates RFC8029.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-lag-multipath-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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--089e082fe404551112055f301e5e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

/* While the draft is in IDR I am adding MPLS WG here as the discussion is
really about MPLS-TE and not BGP */

Hi,

I looked at draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt and would like to share
few comments on it.

The draft defines extension to BGP-LS in order for the node to signal
extended admin groups of a links in the TE domain relaxing the current
limit of 32 bits.

Observations:

1. Is the draft only applicable to MPLS-TE or also to SR networks ? If the
latter the title needs to be changed.

2. While it is usually considered good to have more then less of anything
let's look at the bigger picture and the consequences of this proposal in
respect to its current applicability of MPLS-TE:

Signalling of 32 affinity bits of the link is just a tiny piece of the full
picture. In MPLS-TE networks those bits are signaled in SESSION_ATTRIBUTE
of RSVP-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209 section 4.7

Signalling more then 32 bits will just not fit the current space hence
fundamental set of RSVP-TE (aka MPLS-TE) operation are broken.

Likewise most of the CSPF implementations would also need to modified to
accomodate for BGP signalled extened affinity bits.

IMO if there is real need to have more then 32 admin groups per link in a
TE domain the right process would be to extend IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFCs
for it.

Moreover as we know RSVP-TE or SR-TE while can steer packets via
constrained paths do not guarantee any interface level reservations or
packet prioritization. Those are control plane driven features.

As such one could also notice that with the extened set of link affinity
classes there is real need to also extend QoS of each network element to
offer more then 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise in the event of congestion
it is likely that packets assumed to be classified into one admin group
will likely compete for bandwith in the same queue with packets classified
into different group.

So while I do not have concerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have
bigger picture observations which I believe need to be addressed and need
to become formal references in this document before we proceed on it in IDR
any further.

Cheers,
Robert.

--089e082fe404551112055f301e5e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">/* While the draft is in IDR I am addin=
g MPLS WG here as the discussion is really about MPLS-TE and not BGP */</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi,</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif;font-size:small">I looked at=C2=A0draft-ietf-idr-eag-distrib=
ution-05.txt and would like to share few comments on it.=C2=A0</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">The draft defines extension to BGP=
-LS in order for the node to signal extended admin groups of a links in the=
 TE domain relaxing the current limit of 32 bits.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helv=
etica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Observations:</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small">1. Is the draft only applicable to MPLS-TE or als=
o to SR networks ? If the latter the title needs to be changed.=C2=A0</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">2. While it is usually cons=
idered good to have more then less of anything let&#39;s look at the bigger=
 picture and the consequences of this proposal in respect to its current ap=
plicability of MPLS-TE:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">Signalling of 32 affinity bits of the link is just a tiny piece of=
 the full picture. In MPLS-TE networks those bits are signaled in SESSION_A=
TTRIBUTE of RSVP-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209 section 4.7</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Signalling more then 32 bits will jus=
t not fit the current space hence fundamental set of RSVP-TE (aka MPLS-TE) =
operation are broken.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall">Likewise most of the CSPF implementations would also need to modified=
 to accomodate for BGP signalled extened affinity bits.=C2=A0</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">IMO if there is real need to have m=
ore then 32 admin groups per link in a TE domain the right process would be=
 to extend IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFCs for it.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small">Moreover as we know RSVP-TE or SR-TE while c=
an steer packets via constrained paths do not guarantee any interface level=
 reservations or packet prioritization. Those are control plane driven feat=
ures.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">As such on=
e could also notice that with the extened set of link affinity classes ther=
e is real need to also extend QoS of each network element to offer more the=
n 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise in the event of congestion it is likely th=
at packets assumed to be classified into one admin group will likely compet=
e for bandwith in the same queue with packets classified into different gro=
up.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">So while I do not =
have concerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have bigger picture observa=
tions which I believe need to be addressed and need to become formal refere=
nces in this document before we proceed on it in IDR any further.</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"=
>Robert.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div>

--089e082fe404551112055f301e5e--


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 02:20:11 -0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
CC: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt
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Subject: Re: [mpls] [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt
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Robert,

=20

The draft provides BGP-LS facility for RFC7308 that extends RFCs 3630 and 5=
305 (AG->EAG), aka link coloring, nothing to do with BW reservations or pack=
et prioritization.

RFC7308 was necessary to provide interoperable solution, if I recall correc=
tly, around 2013, in order to signal EAGs - Junos was using TLV138 while XR =
Sub-TLV 252. Your comment about modifications needed is about 5 years late=E2=80=
=A6

There was a need for more than 32, that came in a form of feature requests =
=E2=98=BA

You might not believe it =E2=80=93 but there are still networks running RSVP-TE a=
t a rather large scale.

=20

I agree =E2=80=93 a wider look is necessary, but BGP-LS might not be the first pl=
ace to start.

=20

Hope this clarifies.

=20

Thanks,

Jeff

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.=
net>
Date: Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 01:46
To: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt

=20

/* While the draft is in IDR I am adding MPLS WG here as the discussion is =
really about MPLS-TE and not BGP */

=20

Hi,

=20

I looked at draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt and would like to share =
few comments on it.=20

=20

The draft defines extension to BGP-LS in order for the node to signal exten=
ded admin groups of a links in the TE domain relaxing the current limit of 3=
2 bits.=20

=20

Observations:

=20

1. Is the draft only applicable to MPLS-TE or also to SR networks ? If the =
latter the title needs to be changed.=20

=20

2. While it is usually considered good to have more then less of anything l=
et's look at the bigger picture and the consequences of this proposal in res=
pect to its current applicability of MPLS-TE:=20

=20

Signalling of 32 affinity bits of the link is just a tiny piece of the full=
 picture. In MPLS-TE networks those bits are signaled in SESSION_ATTRIBUTE o=
f RSVP-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209 section 4.7

=20

Signalling more then 32 bits will just not fit the current space hence fund=
amental set of RSVP-TE (aka MPLS-TE) operation are broken.=20

=20

Likewise most of the CSPF implementations would also need to modified to ac=
comodate for BGP signalled extened affinity bits.=20

=20

IMO if there is real need to have more then 32 admin groups per link in a T=
E domain the right process would be to extend IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFCs fo=
r it.=20

=20

Moreover as we know RSVP-TE or SR-TE while can steer packets via constraine=
d paths do not guarantee any interface level reservations or packet prioriti=
zation. Those are control plane driven features.=20

=20

As such one could also notice that with the extened set of link affinity cl=
asses there is real need to also extend QoS of each network element to offer=
 more then 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise in the event of congestion it is l=
ikely that packets assumed to be classified into one admin group will likely=
 compete for bandwith in the same queue with packets classified into differe=
nt group.

=20

So while I do not have concerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have bigg=
er picture observations which I believe need to be addressed and need to bec=
ome formal references in this document before we proceed on it in IDR any fu=
rther.

=20

Cheers,

Robert.

=20

_______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.o=
rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr=20


--B_3594853212_1744931488
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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954=
F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0p=
t'>Robert,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14=
.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
14.0pt'>The draft provides BGP-LS facility for RFC7308 that extends RFCs 363=
0 and 5305 (AG-&gt;EAG), aka link coloring, nothing to do with BW reservatio=
ns or packet prioritization.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>RFC7308 was necessary to provide interoperable solut=
ion, if I recall correctly, around 2013, in order to signal EAGs - Junos was=
 using TLV138 while XR Sub-TLV 252. Your comment about modifications needed =
is about 5 years late=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>There was a need for more than 32, that came in a form o=
f feature requests </span><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Apple C=
olor Emoji"'>=E2=98=BA</span><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>You might not believe it =E2=
=80=93 but there are still networks running RSVP-TE at a rather large scale.<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>I agre=
e =E2=80=93 a wider look is necessary, but BGP-LS might not be the first place to =
start.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0=
pt'>Hope this clarifies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;b=
order-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From:=
 </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Idr &lt;idr-bounces@i=
etf.org&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<br><b>Date:=
 </b>Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 01:46<br><b>To: </b>idr wg &lt;idr@ietf.=
org&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;mpls@ietf.org&quot; &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>=
Subject: </b>[Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'=
font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>/* While the draft is in ID=
R I am adding MPLS WG here as the discussion is really about MPLS-TE and not=
 BGP */<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-lef=
t:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'=
><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hi,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I looked at&nbsp;draft-ietf-id=
r-eag-distribution-05.txt and would like to share few comments on it.&nbsp;<=
o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>=
<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>The draft defines ext=
ension to BGP-LS in order for the node to signal extended admin groups of a =
links in the TE domain relaxing the current limit of 32 bits.&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Observations:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>1. Is the draft only applicable to M=
PLS-TE or also to SR networks ? If the latter the title needs to be changed.=
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left=
:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>=
<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>2. While it is=
 usually considered good to have more then less of anything let's look at th=
e bigger picture and the consequences of this proposal in respect to its cur=
rent applicability of MPLS-TE:&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al",sans-serif'>Signalling of 32 affinity bits of the link is just a tiny pi=
ece of the full picture. In MPLS-TE networks those bits are signaled in SESS=
ION_ATTRIBUTE of RSVP-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209 section 4.7<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-=
size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Signalling more then 32 bits wil=
l just not fit the current space hence fundamental set of RSVP-TE (aka MPLS-=
TE) operation are broken.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"A=
rial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",s=
ans-serif'>Likewise most of the CSPF implementations would also need to modi=
fied to accomodate for BGP signalled extened affinity bits.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>IMO if there is real need to ha=
ve more then 32 admin groups per link in a TE domain the right process would=
 be to extend IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFCs for it.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Moreover as we know RSVP-TE or SR-TE whil=
e can steer packets via constrained paths do not guarantee any interface lev=
el reservations or packet prioritization. Those are control plane driven fea=
tures.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margi=
n-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:=
.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>As such =
one could also notice that with the extened set of link affinity classes the=
re is real need to also extend QoS of each network element to offer more the=
n 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise in the event of congestion it is likely tha=
t packets assumed to be classified into one admin group will likely compete =
for bandwith in the same queue with packets classified into different group.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'=
><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>So while I do not ha=
ve concerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have bigger picture observatio=
ns which I believe need to be addressed and need to become formal references=
 in this document before we proceed on it in IDR any further.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Robert.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________=
________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/idr <o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

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Subject: Re: [mpls] [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt
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Jeff,

Both RFC3630 & RFC5305 define 4 octet administrative groups. I just checked
and non of them is updated formally by RFC7308.

My comment applies equally to RFC7308 and to your draft. It is really not
my fault that RFC7308 went through as is.

Defining only extension for longer then 4 octets admin groups for
interfaces in an MPLS-TE domain is presenting myopic view on how those
extensions are to be used in practice within SESSION_ATTRIBUTE object.

If you say that your extension are to be used only by controller I rest my
case. But as written today they can not just work in practice with base
RSVP-TE specification.

Best,
R.

PS. The comments about lack of bw reservation and qos was not related to yr
draft. It was to provide bigger picture of the problem at hand. But you are
welcome to disregard it :).





On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> The draft provides BGP-LS facility for RFC7308 that extends RFCs 3630 and
> 5305 (AG->EAG), aka link coloring, nothing to do with BW reservations or
> packet prioritization.
>
> RFC7308 was necessary to provide interoperable solution, if I recall
> correctly, around 2013, in order to signal EAGs - Junos was using TLV138
> while XR Sub-TLV 252. Your comment about modifications needed is about 5
> years late=E2=80=A6
>
> There was a need for more than 32, that came in a form of feature request=
s
> =E2=98=BA
>
> You might not believe it =E2=80=93 but there are still networks running R=
SVP-TE at
> a rather large scale.
>
>
>
> I agree =E2=80=93 a wider look is necessary, but BGP-LS might not be the =
first
> place to start.
>
>
>
> Hope this clarifies.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff
>
> *From: *Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <
> robert@raszuk.net>
> *Date: *Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 01:46
> *To: *idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
> *Cc: *"mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt
>
>
>
> /* While the draft is in IDR I am adding MPLS WG here as the discussion i=
s
> really about MPLS-TE and not BGP */
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I looked at draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt and would like to
> share few comments on it.
>
>
>
> The draft defines extension to BGP-LS in order for the node to signal
> extended admin groups of a links in the TE domain relaxing the current
> limit of 32 bits.
>
>
>
> Observations:
>
>
>
> 1. Is the draft only applicable to MPLS-TE or also to SR networks ? If th=
e
> latter the title needs to be changed.
>
>
>
> 2. While it is usually considered good to have more then less of anything
> let's look at the bigger picture and the consequences of this proposal in
> respect to its current applicability of MPLS-TE:
>
>
>
> Signalling of 32 affinity bits of the link is just a tiny piece of the
> full picture. In MPLS-TE networks those bits are signaled in
> SESSION_ATTRIBUTE of RSVP-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209 section 4.7
>
>
>
> Signalling more then 32 bits will just not fit the current space hence
> fundamental set of RSVP-TE (aka MPLS-TE) operation are broken.
>
>
>
> Likewise most of the CSPF implementations would also need to modified to
> accomodate for BGP signalled extened affinity bits.
>
>
>
> IMO if there is real need to have more then 32 admin groups per link in a
> TE domain the right process would be to extend IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFC=
s
> for it.
>
>
>
> Moreover as we know RSVP-TE or SR-TE while can steer packets via
> constrained paths do not guarantee any interface level reservations or
> packet prioritization. Those are control plane driven features.
>
>
>
> As such one could also notice that with the extened set of link affinity
> classes there is real need to also extend QoS of each network element to
> offer more then 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise in the event of congestion
> it is likely that packets assumed to be classified into one admin group
> will likely compete for bandwith in the same queue with packets classifie=
d
> into different group.
>
>
>
> So while I do not have concerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have
> bigger picture observations which I believe need to be addressed and need
> to become formal references in this document before we proceed on it in I=
DR
> any further.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
>

--001a11424216333691055f33db87
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Jeff,</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if;font-size:small">Both RFC3630 &amp; RFC5305 define 4 octet administrativ=
e groups. I just checked and non of them is updated formally by RFC7308.=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">My comment applies=
 equally to RFC7308 and to your draft. It is really not my fault that RFC73=
08 went through as is.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small">Defining only extension for longer then 4 octets admin groups for =
interfaces in an MPLS-TE domain is presenting myopic view on how those exte=
nsions are to be used in practice within SESSION_ATTRIBUTE object.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">If you say that your ext=
ension are to be used only by controller I rest my case. But as written tod=
ay they can not just work in practice with base RSVP-TE specification.=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,=
sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Best,</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small">R.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">PS. The=
 comments about lack of bw reservation and qos was not related to yr draft.=
 It was to provide bigger picture of the problem at hand. But you are welco=
me to disregard it :).=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 30,=
 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Tantsura <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:je=
fftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=
=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"m_6261680831137=
081567m_-7827509696150584290WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Robert,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">The draft provides BGP-LS f=
acility for RFC7308 that extends RFCs 3630 and 5305 (AG-&gt;EAG), aka link =
coloring, nothing to do with BW reservations or packet prioritization.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"=
>RFC7308 was necessary to provide interoperable solution, if I recall corre=
ctly, around 2013, in order to signal EAGs - Junos was using TLV138 while X=
R Sub-TLV 252. Your comment about modifications needed is about 5 years lat=
e=E2=80=A6<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:14.0pt">There was a need for more than 32, that came in a form of f=
eature requests </span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ap=
ple Color Emoji&quot;">=E2=98=BA</span><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0p=
t">You might not believe it =E2=80=93 but there are still networks running =
RSVP-TE at a rather large scale.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">I agree =E2=80=93 a wider=
 look is necessary, but BGP-LS might not be the first place to start.<u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:14.0pt">Hope this clarifies.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0pt">Jeff<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;p=
adding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"=
><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Idr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert=
 Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@r=
aszuk.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 01:46<br><=
b>To: </b>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[Idr] draft-ietf-=
idr-eag-distributio<wbr>n-05.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div cl=
ass=3D"m_6261680831137081567h5"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-left:.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">/* While the draft is in IDR I am adding MPLS WG =
here as the discussion is really about MPLS-TE and not BGP */<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
sans-serif">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">I looked at=C2=A0draft-ietf-idr-ea=
g-distribu<wbr>tion-05.txt and would like to share few comments on it.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">The draft defines extension to BGP-LS in order=
 for the node to signal extended admin groups of a links in the TE domain r=
elaxing the current limit of 32 bits.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Observ=
ations:<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&q=
uot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-fami=
ly:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">1. Is the draft only applicable to MPLS-TE=
 or also to SR networks ? If the latter the title needs to be changed.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">2. While it is usually considered good to have=
 more then less of anything let&#39;s look at the bigger picture and the co=
nsequences of this proposal in respect to its current applicability of MPLS=
-TE:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Signalling of 32 affinity bits of the =
link is just a tiny piece of the full picture. In MPLS-TE networks those bi=
ts are signaled in SESSION_ATTRIBUTE of RSVP-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209=
 section 4.7<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Signalling more then 32 bits will jus=
t not fit the current space hence fundamental set of RSVP-TE (aka MPLS-TE) =
operation are broken.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Likewise most of the C=
SPF implementations would also need to modified to accomodate for BGP signa=
lled extened affinity bits.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">IMO if there is =
real need to have more then 32 admin groups per link in a TE domain the rig=
ht process would be to extend IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFCs for it.=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left=
:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-s=
erif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Moreover as we know RSVP-TE or SR-TE while can steer =
packets via constrained paths do not guarantee any interface level reservat=
ions or packet prioritization. Those are control plane driven features.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">As such one could also notice that with the ex=
tened set of link affinity classes there is real need to also extend QoS of=
 each network element to offer more then 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise in =
the event of congestion it is likely that packets assumed to be classified =
into one admin group will likely compete for bandwith in the same queue wit=
h packets classified into different group.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">So whil=
e I do not have concerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have bigger pict=
ure observations which I believe need to be addressed and need to become fo=
rmal references in this document before we proceed on it in IDR any further=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,s=
ans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Robert.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-left:.5in">______________________________<wbr>_________________ =
Idr mailing list <a href=3D"mailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf=
.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/idr</a> <u></u><u></u></p>=
</div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 06:54:40 -0800
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
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Robert,

=20

Thanks for your comments, please see inline

=20

Cheers,

Jeff

=20

From: <rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 06:13
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt

=20

Jeff,

=20

Both RFC3630 & RFC5305 define 4 octet administrative groups. I just checked=
 and non of them is updated formally by RFC7308.=20

[jeff] it doesn=E2=80=99t, it extends

=20

My comment applies equally to RFC7308 and to your draft. It is really not m=
y fault that RFC7308 went through as is.=20

[jeff] there should be 6-7 implementations of 7308 in the shipping products=
.

=20

Defining only extension for longer then 4 octets admin groups for interface=
s in an MPLS-TE domain is presenting myopic view on how those extensions are=
 to be used in practice within SESSION_ATTRIBUTE object.=20

[jeff] you are mixing state distribution with LSP setup=E2=80=A6 color(bitmask) i=
s a property of a link and on itself has nothing to do with RSVP-TE. The nam=
e of 7308 reflects realities of the time it was written, however.. it is not=
 limited to.

=20

If you say that your extension are to be used only by controller I rest my =
case. But as written today they can not just work in practice with base RSVP=
-TE specification.=20

[jeff] AG/EAG provide additional meta-data about the link in a graph and co=
uld be used by any consumer of that data, being PCE/SDNc/any_cool_acronym_of=
_the_day=20

=20

Best,

R.

=20

PS. The comments about lack of bw reservation and qos was not related to yr=
 draft. It was to provide bigger picture of the problem at hand. But you are=
 welcome to disregard it :).=20

[jeff] I really appreciate your comments and don=E2=80=99t mean to disregard them=
, resolution of color semantics could be done in any way to express business=
 logic

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> w=
rote:

Robert,

=20

The draft provides BGP-LS facility for RFC7308 that extends RFCs 3630 and 5=
305 (AG->EAG), aka link coloring, nothing to do with BW reservations or pack=
et prioritization.

RFC7308 was necessary to provide interoperable solution, if I recall correc=
tly, around 2013, in order to signal EAGs - Junos was using TLV138 while XR =
Sub-TLV 252. Your comment about modifications needed is about 5 years late=E2=80=
=A6

There was a need for more than 32, that came in a form of feature requests =
=E2=98=BA

You might not believe it =E2=80=93 but there are still networks running RSVP-TE a=
t a rather large scale.

=20

I agree =E2=80=93 a wider look is necessary, but BGP-LS might not be the first pl=
ace to start.

=20

Hope this clarifies.

=20

Thanks,

Jeff

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.=
net>
Date: Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 01:46
To: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt

=20

/* While the draft is in IDR I am adding MPLS WG here as the discussion is =
really about MPLS-TE and not BGP */

=20

Hi,

=20

I looked at draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt and would like to share =
few comments on it.=20

=20

The draft defines extension to BGP-LS in order for the node to signal exten=
ded admin groups of a links in the TE domain relaxing the current limit of 3=
2 bits.=20

=20

Observations:

=20

1. Is the draft only applicable to MPLS-TE or also to SR networks ? If the =
latter the title needs to be changed.=20

=20

2. While it is usually considered good to have more then less of anything l=
et's look at the bigger picture and the consequences of this proposal in res=
pect to its current applicability of MPLS-TE:=20

=20

Signalling of 32 affinity bits of the link is just a tiny piece of the full=
 picture. In MPLS-TE networks those bits are signaled in SESSION_ATTRIBUTE o=
f RSVP-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209 section 4.7

=20

Signalling more then 32 bits will just not fit the current space hence fund=
amental set of RSVP-TE (aka MPLS-TE) operation are broken.=20

=20

Likewise most of the CSPF implementations would also need to modified to ac=
comodate for BGP signalled extened affinity bits.=20

=20

IMO if there is real need to have more then 32 admin groups per link in a T=
E domain the right process would be to extend IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFCs fo=
r it.=20

=20

Moreover as we know RSVP-TE or SR-TE while can steer packets via constraine=
d paths do not guarantee any interface level reservations or packet prioriti=
zation. Those are control plane driven features.=20

=20

As such one could also notice that with the extened set of link affinity cl=
asses there is real need to also extend QoS of each network element to offer=
 more then 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise in the event of congestion it is l=
ikely that packets assumed to be classified into one admin group will likely=
 compete for bandwith in the same queue with packets classified into differe=
nt group.

=20

So while I do not have concerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have bigg=
er picture observations which I believe need to be addressed and need to bec=
ome formal references in this document before we proceed on it in IDR any fu=
rther.

=20

Cheers,

Robert.

=20

_______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.o=
rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr=20

=20


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--></style></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><di=
v class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Rober=
t,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>=
Thanks for your comments, please see inline<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:black'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:blac=
k'>Jeff</span><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div st=
yle=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;=
color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&lt=
;rraszuk@gmail.com&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;robert@raszuk.net&gt;<=
br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 06:13<br><b>To: </b>Jeff Tant=
sura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>idr wg &lt;idr@ietf.org&g=
t;, &quot;mpls@ietf.org&quot; &lt;mpls@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [=
Idr] draft-ietf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Jeff,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:=
"Arial",sans-serif'>Both RFC3630 &amp; RFC5305 define 4 octet administrative=
 groups. I just checked and non of them is updated formally by RFC7308.&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>[jeff] it doesn=E2=80=99t, it=
 extends<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-le=
ft:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in=
'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>My comment a=
pplies equally to RFC7308 and to your draft. It is really not my fault that =
RFC7308 went through as is.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",san=
s-serif'>[jeff] there should be 6-7 implementations of 7308 in the shipping =
products.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5i=
n'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Defining on=
ly extension for longer then 4 octets admin groups for interfaces in an MPLS=
-TE domain is presenting myopic view on how those extensions are to be used =
in practice within SESSION_ATTRIBUTE object.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Arial",sans-serif'>[jeff] you are mixing state distribution with LSP =
setup=E2=80=A6 color(bitmask) is a property of a link and on itself has nothing to=
 do with RSVP-TE. The name of 7308 reflects realities of the time it was wri=
tten, however.. it is not limited to.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif'>If you say that your extension are to be used only by contr=
oller I rest my case. But as written today they can not just work in practic=
e with base RSVP-TE specification.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al",sans-serif'>[jeff] AG/EAG provide additional meta-data about the link in=
 a graph and could be used by any consumer of that data, being PCE/SDNc/any_=
cool_acronym_of_the_day <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",s=
ans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'=
margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-ser=
if'>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-l=
eft:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>R.<o=
:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><=
span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>PS. The comments about=
 lack of bw reservation and qos was not related to yr draft. It was to provi=
de bigger picture of the problem at hand. But you are welcome to disregard i=
t :).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'=
><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>[jeff] I real=
ly appreciate your comments and don=E2=80=99t mean to disregard them, resolution o=
f color semantics could be done in any way to express business logic<o:p></o=
:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0p=
t;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Jeff Ta=
ntsura &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jefftant=
.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;=
border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;=
margin-right:0in'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt=
'>Robert,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.=
0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-al=
t:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:1=
4.0pt'>The draft provides BGP-LS facility for RFC7308 that extends RFCs 3630=
 and 5305 (AG-&gt;EAG), aka link coloring, nothing to do with BW reservation=
s or packet prioritization.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>RFC7308 was necessary to provide interoperable soluti=
on, if I recall correctly, around 2013, in order to signal EAGs - Junos was =
using TLV138 while XR Sub-TLV 252. Your comment about modifications needed i=
s about 5 years late=E2=80=A6</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D=
'font-size:14.0pt'>There was a need for more than 32, that came in a form of=
 feature requests </span><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Apple Co=
lor Emoji"'>=E2=98=BA</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-to=
p-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:14.0pt'>You might not believe it =E2=80=93 but there are still networks running=
 RSVP-TE at a rather large scale.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'>=
<span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>I agree =E2=80=93 a wider look is necessary, but BG=
P-LS might not be the first place to start.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-lef=
t:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-l=
eft:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Hope this clarifies.</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Thanks,</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bot=
tom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt'>Jeff</span><o:=
p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3=
.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-marg=
in-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color=
:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Idr &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Thursday, November 30=
, 2017 at 01:46<br><b>To: </b>idr wg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mpls@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[Idr] draft-i=
etf-idr-eag-distribution-05.txt</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;m=
argin-left:1.0in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><=
span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>/* While the dr=
aft is in IDR I am adding MPLS WG here as the discussion is really about MPL=
S-TE and not BGP */</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:=
1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;<=
/span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt=
:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:1=
2.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>I looked at&nbsp;draft-ietf-idr-eag-di=
stribution-05.txt and would like to share few comments on it.&nbsp;</span><o=
:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;ms=
o-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin=
-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>T=
he draft defines extension to BGP-LS in order for the node to signal extende=
d admin groups of a links in the TE domain relaxing the current limit of 32 =
bits.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-ma=
rgin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D=
'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"=
Arial",sans-serif'>Observations:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-lef=
t:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp=
;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-a=
lt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>1. Is the draft only applicable to M=
PLS-TE or also to SR networks ? If the latter the title needs to be changed.=
&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font=
-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial=
",sans-serif'>2. While it is usually considered good to have more then less =
of anything let's look at the bigger picture and the consequences of this pr=
oposal in respect to its current applicability of MPLS-TE:&nbsp;</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-le=
ft:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Sign=
alling of 32 affinity bits of the link is just a tiny piece of the full pict=
ure. In MPLS-TE networks those bits are signaled in SESSION_ATTRIBUTE of RSV=
P-PATH msg as defined in RFC3209 section 4.7</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:aut=
o;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Signalling more then 32 =
bits will just not fit the current space hence fundamental set of RSVP-TE (a=
ka MPLS-TE) operation are broken.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mar=
gin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif=
'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Likewise most of the CSPF imp=
lementations would also need to modified to accomodate for BGP signalled ext=
ened affinity bits.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
 style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in=
'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</span=
><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto=
;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt=
;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>IMO if there is real need to have more then=
 32 admin groups per link in a TE domain the right process would be to exten=
d IGP as well as RSVP-TE RFCs for it.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto=
;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-s=
erif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=
=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Moreover as we know RSVP-=
TE or SR-TE while can steer packets via constrained paths do not guarantee a=
ny interface level reservations or packet prioritization. Those are control =
plane driven features.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.=
0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.=
0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>As such one could also notice that with =
the extened set of link affinity classes there is real need to also extend Q=
oS of each network element to offer more then 32 diffserv classes. Otherwise=
 in the event of congestion it is likely that packets assumed to be classifi=
ed into one admin group will likely compete for bandwith in the same queue w=
ith packets classified into different group.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:aut=
o;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-=
serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>So while I do not have c=
oncerns to define such TLV in BGP-LS I do have bigger picture observations w=
hich I believe need to be addressed and need to become formal references in =
this document before we proceed on it in IDR any further.</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:=
"Arial",sans-serif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0i=
n'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Cheers,</sp=
an><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:au=
to;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0=
pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Robert.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;=
margin-left:1.0in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-se=
rif'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'=
>_______________________________________________ Idr mailing list <a href=3D"m=
ailto:Idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Idr@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/idr</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></body><=
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