Subject: [mpowr] RE: [Solutions] Further work on WG (chair) roles - MPOWR WG proposal

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:05:48 -0500

Hi Pete,

> I thought I heard a good deal of comment that shifting some 
> *responsibility* to the chairs was a good idea. On the other hand, I 
> agree: I certainly heard no consensus about shifting *authority*.

Are you talking about the comments that people made at the plenary
microphone?  The response to the Minneapolis plenary straw poll?  Or 
comments that you've heard elsewhere?

I don't believe that it would be meaningful to say that the IETF
has consensus about a concept as vague as moving responsibility
or authority in any particular direction.  But, based on the results
of the plenary poll, there did seem to be significant support for 
the IESG's proposal to move more authority and responsibility to WG 
chairs.

There were also some excellent points raised regarding the specifics
of the proposal, and we are actively tuning our proposed direction
based on community feedback.

Margaret

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From: [email-masked] (Scott Bradner)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:07:44 -0500 (EST)

> But, based on the results
> of the plenary poll, there did seem to be significant support for=20
> the IESG's proposal to move more authority and responsibility to WG=20
> chairs.

I disagree with this conclusion

I did not see such a consensus nor did I hear any hint of such a consensus
in talking to people during the meeting

Scott

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From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 23:30:09 +0100

> in talking to people during the meeting

I agree with Margaret's statement. I looked around when the poll was
taken, and there seemed to be significant support for the IESG's
proposal.

There's been a few voices opposing this very loudly on the solutions
and problem-statemen lists, but most people I've been in contact with
have - on being asked about their position on this - indicated support.

The impression I get is that many people support this, a few oppose it,
but are much more vociferous.

	Henrik

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From: Melinda Shore <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:48:47 -0500

> but are much more vociferous.

I think there's general support for the idea of moving more work/
responsibility to the chairs, but when we start talking about the
substance of a proposal support start to break down pretty quickly.
It's not that there's objection to the broadly-stated ideal, but
that right now it's difficult to say how to do it well, and proposals
for doing it badly are obviously not going to garner all that much 
support
(but some!).

Melinda

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From: Dave Crocker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:58:21 -0800

Margaret,

MWnc> I don't believe that it would be meaningful to say that the IETF
MWnc> has consensus about a concept as vague as moving responsibility
MWnc> or authority in any particular direction.  But, based on the results
MWnc> of the plenary poll, there did seem to be significant support for 
MWnc> the IESG's proposal to move more authority and responsibility to WG 
MWnc> chairs.

Given your response to Scott, the additional point to make is that:

      "Based on the results of the plenary poll, there also did seem to be
      significant support for _not_ moving more "authority" to working group
      chairs.

This is not a small matter of "tuning" the IESG proposal. It represents
a fundamental disagreement with the authority aspects of the model the
IESG proposed.

Please recall that a major concern raised in the Problems working group
was with to much concentration of power.  Authority is power.  We solve
nothing by taking too much power concentrated into ADs and moving it to
Chairs.  In fact, we exacerbate things significantly, since Chairs are
chosen through an opaque mechanism and -- more significantly -- are
certain to be have less experience than ADs.

d/
--
 Dave Crocker <dcrocker-at-brandenburg-dot-com>
 Brandenburg InternetWorking <www.brandenburg.com>
 Sunnyvale, CA  USA <tel:+1.408.246.8253>