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Cheers, Lei _______________________________________________ MSEC mailing list MSEC@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec From msec-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 14 08:36:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWAPp-00045z-AR; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:36:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWAPn-00045p-Nn for msec@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:36:55 -0400 Received: from mail72.messagelabs.com ([193.109.255.147]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWAPm-0003Yo-DP for msec@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:36:55 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: L.Liang@surrey.ac.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-3.tower-72.messagelabs.com!1189773413!45263627!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [131.227.102.140] Received: (qmail 20140 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2007 12:36:53 -0000 Received: from ads40.surrey.ac.uk (HELO ads40.surrey.ac.uk) (131.227.102.140) by server-3.tower-72.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 2007 12:36:53 -0000 Received: from EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.136]) by ads40.surrey.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:36:52 +0100 Received: from 131.227.89.115 ([131.227.89.115]) by EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.152]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:36:51 +0000 Received: from ccsrlt115.ee.surrey.ac.uk by exchange.surrey.ac.uk; 14 Sep 2007 13:36:51 +0100 From: lei Liang To: msec@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:36:51 +0100 Message-Id: <1189773411.20190.9.camel@ccsrlt115.ee.surrey.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.2 (2.2.2-5) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2007 12:36:53.0060 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDBB0840:01C7F6CB] X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Subject: [MSEC] recommendation on key and MAC length for TESLA? 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------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7FF14.40ECAD70-- From msec-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 11:42:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZq4l-0004Q1-V6; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:42:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZq4k-0004PX-1r for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:42:22 -0400 Received: from zux006-004-203.adsl.green.ch ([81.6.4.203] helo=mailx.swiss-it.ch) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZq4e-0002sB-LI for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:42:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailx.swiss-it.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1900312C001 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailx.swiss-it.ch Received: from mailx.swiss-it.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailx.swiss-it.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TvqSDDkyC+4 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.24.1.184] (unknown [172.24.1.184]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailx.swiss-it.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C9A58218 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46F7DBB4.7010105@swiss-it.ch> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:45:56 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adrian-Ken_R=FCegsegger?= Organization: secunet SwissIT AG User-Agent: Icedove 1.5.0.12 (X11/20070607) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: msec@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Subject: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection X-BeenThere: msec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multicast Security List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: msec-bounces@ietf.org Hello all, I have a question concerning draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: In the document it is stated that TESLA Authentication is protected from DoS attacks by non-group members through the usage of an external authentication transform using a symmetric-key MAC. 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Regards, Adrian _______________________________________________ MSEC mailing list MSEC@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec From msec-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 11:42:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZq4l-0004Q1-V6; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:42:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZq4k-0004PX-1r for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:42:22 -0400 Received: from zux006-004-203.adsl.green.ch ([81.6.4.203] helo=mailx.swiss-it.ch) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZq4e-0002sB-LI for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:42:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailx.swiss-it.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1900312C001 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailx.swiss-it.ch Received: from mailx.swiss-it.ch ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mailx.swiss-it.ch [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TvqSDDkyC+4 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.24.1.184] (unknown [172.24.1.184]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailx.swiss-it.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C9A58218 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:41:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46F7DBB4.7010105@swiss-it.ch> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:45:56 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Adrian-Ken_R=FCegsegger?= Organization: secunet SwissIT AG User-Agent: Icedove 1.5.0.12 (X11/20070607) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: msec@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Subject: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection X-BeenThere: msec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multicast Security List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: msec-bounces@ietf.org Hello all, I have a question concerning draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: In the document it is stated that TESLA Authentication is protected from DoS attacks by non-group members through the usage of an external authentication transform using a symmetric-key MAC. It is my understanding that this is not entirely true since it leaves the system vulnerable to replay-attacks to some extent (even from outsiders). All operations that have to be performed before evaluating the TESLA MAC and checking the sequence number, will have to be done even for replayed packets. This would also include the steps incured by the external authentication transform. Could this lead to a *true* DoS attack or is the computational overhead negligible? For smaller groups it is possible to use the IPsec anti-replay protection (ESP sequence numbers) and keep track of each senders state but as noted in other documents this does not scale to larger groups. draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-extensions-06, Appendix 3 says that IPsec anti-replay protection should be disabled in large-scale any-sender multicast scenarios. Can TESLA help mitigate the replay-attack problem in situations where ESP sequence numbering is not feasible and if so in what way? Regards, Adrian _______________________________________________ MSEC mailing list MSEC@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec From msec-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 13:27:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZri3-0002UA-Of; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:03 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZri2-0002Hp-E7 for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:02 -0400 Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZri1-0000b0-Ss for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:02 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,292,1186372800"; d="scan'208";a="132846713" Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Sep 2007 13:27:01 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8OHR18J021239; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:01 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8OHQxYq001032; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:27:01 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20c.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.57]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:26:56 -0400 Received: from 10.32.254.210 ([10.32.254.210]) by xmb-rtp-20c.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.57]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:26:56 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.4.060510 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:27:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection From: mcgrew To: Adrian-Ken R=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=egsegger , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection Thread-Index: Acf+0CMqYbzi3mrDEdyd0AAUUQnMFg== In-Reply-To: <46F7DBB4.7010105@swiss-it.ch> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2007 17:26:56.0471 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B1A4E70:01C7FED0] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1799; t=1190654821; x=1191518821; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mcgrew@cisco.com; z=From:=20mcgrew=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[MSEC]=20draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00=3A=20regardin g=20anti-replay=0A=20protection |Sender:=20 |To:=20Adrian-Ken=20R=3D?ISO-8859-1?B?/A=3D=3D?=3Degsegger=20,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20; bh=RnB4bWlBnTKicXEKDe7Esdcb1F7nl+DQcDSaL5O1Jo8=; b=GQv7RRKHr8On+GRQOVtgj5Gxkgy9tE0H1vk146awP0nNBBmHBm4hVTF9wfK+qwN3IPzeNTVp uObGSLb1Wk8m0vt7g7VN91U2ipdzNQcgfK88s7uuzIvXqTHSYDKJU1un; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=mcgrew@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: X-BeenThere: msec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multicast Security List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: msec-bounces@ietf.org Hi Adrian, I think that the group-keyed MAC protects the TESLA receivers' buffers from getting full of junk messages; in other words, it protects against memory exhaustion, rather than excessive computation. David On 9/24/07 8:45 AM, "Adrian-Ken R=FCegsegger" wrote= : > Hello all, >=20 > I have a question concerning draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: >=20 > In the document it is stated that TESLA Authentication is protected from > DoS attacks by non-group members through the usage of an external > authentication transform using a symmetric-key MAC. >=20 > It is my understanding that this is not entirely true since it leaves > the system vulnerable to replay-attacks to some extent (even from > outsiders). All operations that have to be performed before evaluating > the TESLA MAC and checking the sequence number, will have to be done > even for replayed packets. This would also include the steps incured by > the external authentication transform. Could this lead to a *true* DoS > attack or is the computational overhead negligible? >=20 > For smaller groups it is possible to use the IPsec anti-replay > protection (ESP sequence numbers) and keep track of each senders state > but as noted in other documents this does not scale to larger groups. > draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-extensions-06, Appendix 3 says that IPsec > anti-replay protection should be disabled in large-scale any-sender > multicast scenarios. >=20 > Can TESLA help mitigate the replay-attack problem in situations where > ESP sequence numbering is not feasible and if so in what way? >=20 > Regards, > Adrian >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > MSEC mailing list > MSEC@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec _______________________________________________ MSEC mailing list MSEC@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec From msec-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 13:27:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZri3-0002UA-Of; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:03 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZri2-0002Hp-E7 for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:02 -0400 Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZri1-0000b0-Ss for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:02 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,292,1186372800"; d="scan'208";a="132846713" Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Sep 2007 13:27:01 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8OHR18J021239; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:27:01 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8OHQxYq001032; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:27:01 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-20c.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.57]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:26:56 -0400 Received: from 10.32.254.210 ([10.32.254.210]) by xmb-rtp-20c.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.57]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:26:56 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.2.4.060510 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:27:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection From: mcgrew To: Adrian-Ken R=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=egsegger , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection Thread-Index: Acf+0CMqYbzi3mrDEdyd0AAUUQnMFg== In-Reply-To: <46F7DBB4.7010105@swiss-it.ch> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2007 17:26:56.0471 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B1A4E70:01C7FED0] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1799; t=1190654821; x=1191518821; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=mcgrew@cisco.com; z=From:=20mcgrew=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[MSEC]=20draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00=3A=20regardin g=20anti-replay=0A=20protection |Sender:=20 |To:=20Adrian-Ken=20R=3D?ISO-8859-1?B?/A=3D=3D?=3Degsegger=20,=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20; bh=RnB4bWlBnTKicXEKDe7Esdcb1F7nl+DQcDSaL5O1Jo8=; b=GQv7RRKHr8On+GRQOVtgj5Gxkgy9tE0H1vk146awP0nNBBmHBm4hVTF9wfK+qwN3IPzeNTVp uObGSLb1Wk8m0vt7g7VN91U2ipdzNQcgfK88s7uuzIvXqTHSYDKJU1un; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=mcgrew@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: X-BeenThere: msec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multicast Security List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: msec-bounces@ietf.org Hi Adrian, I think that the group-keyed MAC protects the TESLA receivers' buffers from getting full of junk messages; in other words, it protects against memory exhaustion, rather than excessive computation. David On 9/24/07 8:45 AM, "Adrian-Ken R=FCegsegger" wrote= : > Hello all, >=20 > I have a question concerning draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: >=20 > In the document it is stated that TESLA Authentication is protected from > DoS attacks by non-group members through the usage of an external > authentication transform using a symmetric-key MAC. >=20 > It is my understanding that this is not entirely true since it leaves > the system vulnerable to replay-attacks to some extent (even from > outsiders). All operations that have to be performed before evaluating > the TESLA MAC and checking the sequence number, will have to be done > even for replayed packets. This would also include the steps incured by > the external authentication transform. Could this lead to a *true* DoS > attack or is the computational overhead negligible? >=20 > For smaller groups it is possible to use the IPsec anti-replay > protection (ESP sequence numbers) and keep track of each senders state > but as noted in other documents this does not scale to larger groups. > draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-extensions-06, Appendix 3 says that IPsec > anti-replay protection should be disabled in large-scale any-sender > multicast scenarios. >=20 > Can TESLA help mitigate the replay-attack problem in situations where > ESP sequence numbering is not feasible and if so in what way? >=20 > Regards, > Adrian >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > MSEC mailing list > MSEC@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec _______________________________________________ MSEC mailing list MSEC@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec From msec-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 23:34:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia1AE-0002lf-LC; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia1AD-0002lZ-EF for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:45 -0400 Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu ([128.2.129.23]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia1AC-0000qD-QT for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:45 -0400 Received: from FINCH.ECE.CMU.EDU (FINCH.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.134.180]) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18772C3; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:44:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Perrig To: mcgrew Subject: Re: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: msec@ietf.org X-BeenThere: msec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multicast Security List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: msec-bounces@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We worked on a new approach to provide efficient replay protection in=20 broadcast environments. Although the protocol is described in the context= =20 of sensor networks, it is also applicable to the Internet. Please take a look at our MiniSec-B protocol in Section 6: http://sparrow.ece.cmu.edu/group/pub/luk_mezzour_perrig_miniSec.pdf Our general MiniSec project page is available at: http://sparrow.ece.cmu.edu/group/minisec.html The contribution of the work is to make the storage overhead for replay=20 protection dependent on the network bandwidth and not on the number of=20 senders, hence achieving scalability to large groups. In summary, TESLA combined with MiniSec-B would provide the replay=20 protectcion you're looking for. Best wishes, Adrian > Hi Adrian, >=20 > I think that the group-keyed MAC protects the TESLA receivers' buffers = from > getting full of junk messages; in other words, it protects against memo= ry > exhaustion, rather than excessive computation. >=20 > David >=20 > On 9/24/07 8:45 AM, "Adrian-Ken R=C3=BCegsegger" wrote: >=20 > > Hello all, > >=20 > > I have a question concerning draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: > >=20 > > In the document it is stated that TESLA Authentication is protected f= rom > > DoS attacks by non-group members through the usage of an external > > authentication transform using a symmetric-key MAC. > >=20 > > It is my understanding that this is not entirely true since it leaves > > the system vulnerable to replay-attacks to some extent (even from > > outsiders). All operations that have to be performed before evaluatin= g > > the TESLA MAC and checking the sequence number, will have to be done > > even for replayed packets. This would also include the steps incured = by > > the external authentication transform. Could this lead to a *true* Do= S > > attack or is the computational overhead negligible? > >=20 > > For smaller groups it is possible to use the IPsec anti-replay > > protection (ESP sequence numbers) and keep track of each senders stat= e > > but as noted in other documents this does not scale to larger groups. > > draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-extensions-06, Appendix 3 says that IPsec > > anti-replay protection should be disabled in large-scale any-sender > > multicast scenarios. > >=20 > > Can TESLA help mitigate the replay-attack problem in situations where > > ESP sequence numbering is not feasible and if so in what way? > >=20 > > Regards, > > Adrian > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > MSEC mailing list > > MSEC@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec >=20 > _______________________________________________ > MSEC mailing list > MSEC@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec >=20 --41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MSEC mailing list MSEC@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec --41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514-- From msec-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 23:34:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia1AE-0002lf-LC; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia1AD-0002lZ-EF for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:45 -0400 Received: from bache.ece.cmu.edu ([128.2.129.23]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia1AC-0000qD-QT for msec@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:45 -0400 Received: from FINCH.ECE.CMU.EDU (FINCH.ECE.CMU.EDU [128.2.134.180]) by bache.ece.cmu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18772C3; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:44:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Perrig To: mcgrew Subject: Re: [MSEC] draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: regarding anti-replay protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: msec@ietf.org X-BeenThere: msec@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Multicast Security List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: msec-bounces@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We worked on a new approach to provide efficient replay protection in=20 broadcast environments. Although the protocol is described in the context= =20 of sensor networks, it is also applicable to the Internet. Please take a look at our MiniSec-B protocol in Section 6: http://sparrow.ece.cmu.edu/group/pub/luk_mezzour_perrig_miniSec.pdf Our general MiniSec project page is available at: http://sparrow.ece.cmu.edu/group/minisec.html The contribution of the work is to make the storage overhead for replay=20 protection dependent on the network bandwidth and not on the number of=20 senders, hence achieving scalability to large groups. In summary, TESLA combined with MiniSec-B would provide the replay=20 protectcion you're looking for. Best wishes, Adrian > Hi Adrian, >=20 > I think that the group-keyed MAC protects the TESLA receivers' buffers = from > getting full of junk messages; in other words, it protects against memo= ry > exhaustion, rather than excessive computation. >=20 > David >=20 > On 9/24/07 8:45 AM, "Adrian-Ken R=C3=BCegsegger" wrote: >=20 > > Hello all, > >=20 > > I have a question concerning draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-tesla-00: > >=20 > > In the document it is stated that TESLA Authentication is protected f= rom > > DoS attacks by non-group members through the usage of an external > > authentication transform using a symmetric-key MAC. > >=20 > > It is my understanding that this is not entirely true since it leaves > > the system vulnerable to replay-attacks to some extent (even from > > outsiders). All operations that have to be performed before evaluatin= g > > the TESLA MAC and checking the sequence number, will have to be done > > even for replayed packets. This would also include the steps incured = by > > the external authentication transform. Could this lead to a *true* Do= S > > attack or is the computational overhead negligible? > >=20 > > For smaller groups it is possible to use the IPsec anti-replay > > protection (ESP sequence numbers) and keep track of each senders stat= e > > but as noted in other documents this does not scale to larger groups. > > draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-extensions-06, Appendix 3 says that IPsec > > anti-replay protection should be disabled in large-scale any-sender > > multicast scenarios. > >=20 > > Can TESLA help mitigate the replay-attack problem in situations where > > ESP sequence numbering is not feasible and if so in what way? > >=20 > > Regards, > > Adrian > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > MSEC mailing list > > MSEC@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec >=20 > _______________________________________________ > MSEC mailing list > MSEC@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec >=20 --41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ MSEC mailing list MSEC@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec --41989254-1949279999-1190691850=:2514-- From Earlfernando@simsgems.com Tue Sep 25 22:36:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaMku-0003jr-Sp for msec-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:36:04 -0400 Received: from cablelink35-2.intercable.net ([207.248.35.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaMkk-00027F-JT for msec-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:36:02 -0400 Received: from hogar ([101.167.66.52] helo=hogar) by [207.248.35.2] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1owHls-000LLV-JF for msec-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:36:38 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c7ffe6$0021bb00$0223f8cf@hogar> From: "Earl fernando" To: Subject: akhotana Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:36:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7FFBC.174BB300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7FFBC.174BB300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://lamqma.com/ Compliments msec-archive No girls laugh at me now Earl fernando ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7FFBC.174BB300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Compliments msec-archive
No girls laugh at me now
Earl fernando
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Good night msec-archive
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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C8011A.D6FAFE90-- From phoenix@data-power.com Thu Sep 27 18:33:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib1vb-00081k-Ne for msec-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:33:52 -0400 Received: from [41.251.5.1] (helo=xxzqvj) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib1vV-0000WV-Cs for msec-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:33:46 -0400 Received: (qmail 7638 invoked from network); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:27:17 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO bcd) (191.39.176.80) by xxzqvj with SMTP; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:27:17 +0200 Message-ID: <46FC1225.2070305@data-power.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:27:17 +0200 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: msec-archive@ietf.org Subject: 30 seconds could save you hundreds. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 Get all your pharmaceutical needs filled online and in one place. http://sonisur.com/ From maggy@autoid-expo.com Fri Sep 28 04:01:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbAme-0005b9-3o for msec-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:01:12 -0400 Received: from [195.135.239.4] (helo=[195.135.239.4]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbAmP-0006DV-UE for msec-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:00:58 -0400 Received: from MI ([155.106.151.2] helo=MI) by [195.135.239.4] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1vIrfS-000GIR-TX for msec-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:01:30 +0400 Message-ID: <000801c801a5$b253b100$04ef87c3@MI> From: "maggy Rauramo" To: Subject: shoal Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:00:55 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C801C7.3967C200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C801C7.3967C200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is = expected to arrive soon. For those of you who currently own this company this will be great news. For those that don't currently own this company, you need to get in on = this now. The company recently traded as high as .13 and with any significant news = should be able to see (if not exceed) those prices again. Contact your broker now, = don't miss this opportunity in D M X C! ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C801C7.3967C200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Hi To msec-archive
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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C802A9.E06BF840-- From alek@bsb.ab.ca Sat Sep 29 21:24:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbnXW-0005gu-7n for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:24:10 -0400 Received: from dslb-084-056-116-208.pools.arcor-ip.net ([84.56.116.208] helo=[84.56.77.130]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbnXR-0002y0-9U for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:24:08 -0400 Received: from skunkmachine ([197.130.25.93]:29037 "EHLO skunkmachine" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by dslb-084-056-124-220.pools.arcor-ip.net with ESMTP id S22WUQCUVULHHNBK (ORCPT ); Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:25:59 +0200 Message-ID: <000401c80300$d1c178e0$dc7c3854@skunkmachine> From: "alek Farberov" To: Subject: attualus Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:25:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80311.954A48E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80311.954A48E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello msec-archive Urgent alert. Look at DM XC! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Get it at monday ausweisp avarecal atteuden aulualsi ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80311.954A48E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello msec-archive
Urgent alert.
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ausweisp
avarecal
atteuden
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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80311.954A48E0-- From Limin_benincasa@aka-spot.net Sun Sep 30 08:01:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbxUO-0005A8-20 for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 08:01:36 -0400 Received: from [151.65.118.93] (helo=[151.65.114.115]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbxUK-00014v-K9 for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 08:01:34 -0400 Received: from Jennifer1976 ([170.140.138.5] helo=Jennifer1976) by [151.65.114.115] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1RHyPo-000ZXS-Iq for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:33:26 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c80355$a2f1fad0$73724197@Jennifer1976> From: "Limin benincasa" To: msec-archive@ietf.org Subject: 1kcarc Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:32:52 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c80355$a2f1fad0$73724197@Jennifer1976> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Good day msec-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 1imaim 1thereto 1rellim 1fireman From prjaffe1961@freegiftworld.com Sun Sep 30 11:22:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0cQ-00085f-A0 for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:22:06 -0400 Received: from [88.246.172.65] (helo=dsl88-246-44097.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0cM-0007mz-OH for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:22:04 -0400 Received: from [86.59.147.55] (helo=yvvsj) by dsl88-246-44097.ttnet.net.tr with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1JH0-0002f6-5X; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:27:13 +0300 Message-ID: <46FFBF26.2010003@freegiftworld.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:22:14 +0300 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: msec-archive@ietf.org Subject: This is the next must have item Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Production Facility Nearly Maxed As New Porsche Designed Yacht Hits Market Fearless International FRLE.OB Current: $0.32 Fearless International released the Porsche Designed "Fearless 28" as the feature yacht this year in Miami. The consumer market has been pouring in orders, pushing production to 75% of capacity. Magazines like Yacht Magazine, Cigar Aficionado, Boating World, GQ, and Bloomberg Markets have rated it nothing less than incredible. If you do nothing else this weekend, go to the fearlessyachts dot com website and see this in action on the video. After you have check this out we know you will agree it will be one of the hottest stocks this year. Grab it Monday. From Eui-Galok@maillistcompany.com Sun Sep 30 22:26:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcAzQ-0004jw-O2 for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:26:32 -0400 Received: from anice-157-1-63-144.w90-36.abo.wanadoo.fr ([90.36.78.144]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcAz2-0002Zm-Q3 for msec-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:26:09 -0400 Received: from thc ([194.161.122.171]:20769 "EHLO thc" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [90.36.78.144] with ESMTP id S22RTYRKBXKMDOLK (ORCPT ); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 04:29:05 +0200 Message-ID: <9137A908.E76353C7@maillistcompany.com> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 04:28:54 +0200 From: "Eui Galok" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: msec-archive@ietf.org Subject: auerndes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Good day msec-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 atverven aufgestu attahopi aulupeko