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Subject: Re: [MSEC] MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02
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Hi David,

thanks for the comments, more inline:

On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Black_David@emc.com wrote:

> Last week, the authors of this draft asked me to take a look
> at it.  I apologize for these comments coming slightly after
> WG Last Call ends, and thank the authors in advance for their
> patience in waiting for these comments.
>
> Overall, the draft looks good, and I think support for further
> use of these modes is a "good thing".  I have a couple of minor
> comments:
>
> (1) I would add a sentence to either Section 3 (IV formation)
> or section 6 (Security Considerations) to the effect that the
> security properties of these modes do not rely upon
> unpredictability of the initial IV values (IV sequences for
> counter modes tend to be predictable for obvious reasons).
> On initial reading, I was concerned about potential SID
> use of 2 octets out of an 8-octet IV, and such a sentence
> would remove that concern.

Section 2, par 1 ends like this:

"That is, for each key, no IV value can be used more than once. This  
restriction on IV usage is imposed on ESP CTR, ESP GCM, and ESP CCM.  
In cryptographic terms, the IV is a nonce."

Right after that, we could add: "(Note that CBC mode requires IVs that  
are unpredictable.  CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM do not have these  
restrictions.)

I'm fine with adding something in Section 3 or 6 too.   In Section 3  
we could say "Neither the SID nor the SSIV fields need to be  
unpredictable.   The uniqueness requirements described above meet all  
of the security requirements of CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM modes."

Wordsmithing welcome.

>
>
> (2) The first two bullet items in Section 4 are not as clear
> as they could be:
> - It is unclear whether the first requirement applies across
> 	all SAs, or on an SA by SA basis.

Good point.   I suggest something like"

"For each SA for which sender identifiers are used, the GKMS MUST NOT  
give the same sender identifier to more than one active group  
member ... "

>
> - There is almost no discussion about what happens if the
> 	SHOULD in the second bullet is not followed.
> I think the first requirement is on an SA by SA basis (that
> should be stated), and then the explanation of the SHOULD in
> the second requirement can be two-fold:
> - Avoids need to manage SIDs on a per-SA basis in not only
> 	the GKMS, but also the senders (the latter is probably
> 	the more important consideration).
> - Avoids any need to change/issue SIDs when rekeying an SA.
> Only the latter point appears to be mentioned.
>

Sounds good to me.

Thanks again!

David

> Thanks,
> --David
> ----------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
> EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 293-7953             FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786
> black_david@emc.com        Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>

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Subject: Re: [MSEC] MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02
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Hi David,

thanks for the comments, more inline:

On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Black_David@emc.com wrote:

> Last week, the authors of this draft asked me to take a look
> at it.  I apologize for these comments coming slightly after
> WG Last Call ends, and thank the authors in advance for their
> patience in waiting for these comments.
>
> Overall, the draft looks good, and I think support for further
> use of these modes is a "good thing".  I have a couple of minor
> comments:
>
> (1) I would add a sentence to either Section 3 (IV formation)
> or section 6 (Security Considerations) to the effect that the
> security properties of these modes do not rely upon
> unpredictability of the initial IV values (IV sequences for
> counter modes tend to be predictable for obvious reasons).
> On initial reading, I was concerned about potential SID
> use of 2 octets out of an 8-octet IV, and such a sentence
> would remove that concern.

Section 2, par 1 ends like this:

"That is, for each key, no IV value can be used more than once. This  
restriction on IV usage is imposed on ESP CTR, ESP GCM, and ESP CCM.  
In cryptographic terms, the IV is a nonce."

Right after that, we could add: "(Note that CBC mode requires IVs that  
are unpredictable.  CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM do not have these  
restrictions.)

I'm fine with adding something in Section 3 or 6 too.   In Section 3  
we could say "Neither the SID nor the SSIV fields need to be  
unpredictable.   The uniqueness requirements described above meet all  
of the security requirements of CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM modes."

Wordsmithing welcome.

>
>
> (2) The first two bullet items in Section 4 are not as clear
> as they could be:
> - It is unclear whether the first requirement applies across
> 	all SAs, or on an SA by SA basis.

Good point.   I suggest something like"

"For each SA for which sender identifiers are used, the GKMS MUST NOT  
give the same sender identifier to more than one active group  
member ... "

>
> - There is almost no discussion about what happens if the
> 	SHOULD in the second bullet is not followed.
> I think the first requirement is on an SA by SA basis (that
> should be stated), and then the explanation of the SHOULD in
> the second requirement can be two-fold:
> - Avoids need to manage SIDs on a per-SA basis in not only
> 	the GKMS, but also the senders (the latter is probably
> 	the more important consideration).
> - Avoids any need to change/issue SIDs when rekeying an SA.
> Only the latter point appears to be mentioned.
>

Sounds good to me.

Thanks again!

David

> Thanks,
> --David
> ----------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
> EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 293-7953             FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786
> black_david@emc.com        Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
>

_______________________________________________
MSEC mailing list
MSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec


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From nah@alfapress.com.br  Wed Dec 17 12:13:55 2008
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From msec-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 18 01:28:43 2008
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Hello everybody,

For your information...

This 07 version of TESLA includes the latest changes discussed during
Minneapolis meeting (sha-1 to sha-256 migration and IANA repository).
It's therefore ready for a 2nd WGLC.

The I-D:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07.txt
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07

The diff with 06 version:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07.txt

Cheers,

   Aurelien, Sebastien and Vincent


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for          draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:34:38 -0800 (PST)
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
To: vincent.roca@inria.fr
CC: aurelien.francillon@inria.fr, faurite@lcpc.fr


A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07.txt has been successfuly submitted by Vincent Roca and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm
Revision:	 07
Title:		 Use of TESLA in the ALC and NORM Protocols
Creation_date:	 2008-12-18
WG ID:		 msec
Number_of_pages: 65

Abstract:
This document details the TESLA packet source authentication and
packet integrity verification protocol and its integration within the
ALC and NORM content delivery protocols.  This document only
considers the authentication/integrity verification of the packets
generated by the session's sender.  The authentication and integrity
verification of the packets sent by receivers, if any, is out of the
scope of this document.



The IETF Secretariat.

_______________________________________________
MSEC mailing list
MSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec


From msec-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 18 01:28:43 2008
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Hello everybody,

For your information...

This 07 version of TESLA includes the latest changes discussed during
Minneapolis meeting (sha-1 to sha-256 migration and IANA repository).
It's therefore ready for a 2nd WGLC.

The I-D:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07.txt
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07

The diff with 06 version:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07.txt

Cheers,

   Aurelien, Sebastien and Vincent


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for          draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:34:38 -0800 (PST)
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
To: vincent.roca@inria.fr
CC: aurelien.francillon@inria.fr, faurite@lcpc.fr


A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm-07.txt has been successfuly submitted by Vincent Roca and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-ietf-msec-tesla-for-alc-norm
Revision:	 07
Title:		 Use of TESLA in the ALC and NORM Protocols
Creation_date:	 2008-12-18
WG ID:		 msec
Number_of_pages: 65

Abstract:
This document details the TESLA packet source authentication and
packet integrity verification protocol and its integration within the
ALC and NORM content delivery protocols.  This document only
considers the authentication/integrity verification of the packets
generated by the session's sender.  The authentication and integrity
verification of the packets sent by receivers, if any, is out of the
scope of this document.



The IETF Secretariat.

_______________________________________________
MSEC mailing list
MSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec


From msec-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Dec 18 03:02:23 2008
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Subject: Re: [MSEC] MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02
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[Forwarding David Black's latest email.]

From: Black_David@emc.com
Date: December 12, 2008 2:51:14 PM PST
To: <mcgrew@cisco.com>
Cc: <msec@ietf.org>, <bew@cisco.com>, <ldondeti@qualcomm.com>,  
<Black_David@emc.com>
Subject: RE: MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02


David (M),

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Subject: Re: [MSEC] MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02
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[Forwarding David Black's latest email.]

From: Black_David@emc.com
Date: December 12, 2008 2:51:14 PM PST
To: <mcgrew@cisco.com>
Cc: <msec@ietf.org>, <bew@cisco.com>, <ldondeti@qualcomm.com>,  
<Black_David@emc.com>
Subject: RE: MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02


David (M),

(1)dding the note about IVs to the end of the first paragraph
	of Section 2 is a fine thing to do, IMHO.  I would repeat
	that note at the end of the first paragraph of Section 6,
	as it is a security consideration.  Beyond these two, I
	don't see a need to add anything to Section 3.

(2) I agree with your suggestion for the first bullet in Section
	4.  That plus your plan to pick up my suggestions about
	the second bullet should suffice to clarify these bullets.

Thanks,
--David (B)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: David McGrew [mailto:mcgrew@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 1:32 PM
> To: Black, David
> Cc: msec@ietf.org; bew@cisco.com; ldondeti@qualcomm.com
> Subject: Re: MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02
>
> Hi David,
>
> thanks for the comments, more inline:
>
> On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Black_David@emc.com wrote:
>
>
>> Last week, the authors of this draft asked me to take a look
>> at it.  I apologize for these comments coming slightly after
>> WG Last Call ends, and thank the authors in advance for their
>> patience in waiting for these comments.
>>
>> Overall, the draft looks good, and I think support for further
>> use of these modes is a "good thing".  I have a couple of minor
>> comments:
>>
>> (1) I would add a sentence to either Section 3 (IV formation)
>> or section 6 (Security Considerations) to the effect that the
>> security properties of these modes do not rely upon
>> unpredictability of the initial IV values (IV sequences for
>> counter modes tend to be predictable for obvious reasons).
>> On initial reading, I was concerned about potential SID
>> use of 2 octets out of an 8-octet IV, and such a sentence
>> would remove that concern.
>>
>
> Section 2, par 1 ends like this:
>
> "That is, for each key, no IV value can be used more than once. This
> restriction on IV usage is imposed on ESP CTR, ESP GCM, and ESP CCM.
> In cryptographic terms, the IV is a nonce."
>
> Right after that, we could add: "(Note that CBC mode requires
> IVs that
> are unpredictable.  CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM do not have these
> restrictions.)
>
> I'm fine with adding something in Section 3 or 6 too.   In Section 3
> we could say "Neither the SID nor the SSIV fields need to be
> unpredictable.   The uniqueness requirements described above
> meet all
> of the security requirements of CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM modes."
>
> Wordsmithing welcome.
>
>
>>
>>
>> (2) The first two bullet items in Section 4 are not as clear
>> as they could be:
>> - It is unclear whether the first requirement applies across
>> 	all SAs, or on an SA by SA basis.
>>
>
> Good point.   I suggest something like"
>
> "For each SA for which sender identifiers are used, the GKMS
> MUST NOT
> give the same sender identifier to more than one active group
> member ... "
>
>
>>
>> - There is almost no discussion about what happens if the
>> 	SHOULD in the second bullet is not followed.
>> I think the first requirement is on an SA by SA basis (that
>> should be stated), and then the explanation of the SHOULD in
>> the second requirement can be two-fold:
>> - Avoids need to manage SIDs on a per-SA basis in not only
>> 	the GKMS, but also the senders (the latter is probably
>> 	the more important consideration).
>> - Avoids any need to change/issue SIDs when rekeying an SA.
>> Only the latter point appears to be mentioned.
>>
>>
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> David
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> --David
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
>> EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
>> +1 (508) 293-7953             FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786
>> black_david@emc.com        Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>

-- 
Brian Weis
Router/Switch Security Group, ARTG, Cisco Systems
Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
Email: bew@cisco.com

_______________________________________________
MSEC mailing list
MSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec


 Adding the note about IVs to the end of the first paragraph
	of Section 2 is a fine thing to do, IMHO.  I would repeat
	that note at the end of the first paragraph of Section 6,
	as it is a security consideration.  Beyond these two, I
	don't see a need to add anything to Section 3.

(2) I agree with your suggestion for the first bullet in Section
	4.  That plus your plan to pick up my suggestions about
	the second bullet should suffice to clarify these bullets.

Thanks,
--David (B)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: David McGrew [mailto:mcgrew@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 1:32 PM
> To: Black, David
> Cc: msec@ietf.org; bew@cisco.com; ldondeti@qualcomm.com
> Subject: Re: MSEC WGLC on draft-ietf-msec-ipsec-group-counter-modes-02
>
> Hi David,
>
> thanks for the comments, more inline:
>
> On Dec 9, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Black_David@emc.com wrote:
>
>
>> Last week, the authors of this draft asked me to take a look
>> at it.  I apologize for these comments coming slightly after
>> WG Last Call ends, and thank the authors in advance for their
>> patience in waiting for these comments.
>>
>> Overall, the draft looks good, and I think support for further
>> use of these modes is a "good thing".  I have a couple of minor
>> comments:
>>
>> (1) I would add a sentence to either Section 3 (IV formation)
>> or section 6 (Security Considerations) to the effect that the
>> security properties of these modes do not rely upon
>> unpredictability of the initial IV values (IV sequences for
>> counter modes tend to be predictable for obvious reasons).
>> On initial reading, I was concerned about potential SID
>> use of 2 octets out of an 8-octet IV, and such a sentence
>> would remove that concern.
>>
>
> Section 2, par 1 ends like this:
>
> "That is, for each key, no IV value can be used more than once. This
> restriction on IV usage is imposed on ESP CTR, ESP GCM, and ESP CCM.
> In cryptographic terms, the IV is a nonce."
>
> Right after that, we could add: "(Note that CBC mode requires
> IVs that
> are unpredictable.  CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM do not have these
> restrictions.)
>
> I'm fine with adding something in Section 3 or 6 too.   In Section 3
> we could say "Neither the SID nor the SSIV fields need to be
> unpredictable.   The uniqueness requirements described above
> meet all
> of the security requirements of CTR, GCM, GMAC, and CCM modes."
>
> Wordsmithing welcome.
>
>
>>
>>
>> (2) The first two bullet items in Section 4 are not as clear
>> as they could be:
>> - It is unclear whether the first requirement applies across
>> 	all SAs, or on an SA by SA basis.
>>
>
> Good point.   I suggest something like"
>
> "For each SA for which sender identifiers are used, the GKMS
> MUST NOT
> give the same sender identifier to more than one active group
> member ... "
>
>
>>
>> - There is almost no discussion about what happens if the
>> 	SHOULD in the second bullet is not followed.
>> I think the first requirement is on an SA by SA basis (that
>> should be stated), and then the explanation of the SHOULD in
>> the second requirement can be two-fold:
>> - Avoids need to manage SIDs on a per-SA basis in not only
>> 	the GKMS, but also the senders (the latter is probably
>> 	the more important consideration).
>> - Avoids any need to change/issue SIDs when rekeying an SA.
>> Only the latter point appears to be mentioned.
>>
>>
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> David
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> --David
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
>> EMC Corporation, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
>> +1 (508) 293-7953             FAX: +1 (508) 293-7786
>> black_david@emc.com        Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>

-- 
Brian Weis
Router/Switch Security Group, ARTG, Cisco Systems
Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
Email: bew@cisco.com

_______________________________________________
MSEC mailing list
MSEC@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/msec


From ligbvv@alixdavies.com  Thu Dec 18 10:42:24 2008
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From Wendy77@att.com  Thu Dec 18 13:50:55 2008
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still Looking for a great gift?

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From natriumlippen@amateurmatch.com  Fri Dec 19 03:05:37 2008
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From lobal@accept.com.br  Fri Dec 19 06:17:21 2008
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From meiuyy@aandmsoundsys.com  Fri Dec 19 08:31:11 2008
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From networkbacktrackingrounder@access.co.jp  Sat Dec 20 01:09:30 2008
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From johan.zwering@akzonobel.com  Sat Dec 20 10:16:16 2008
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From joanna.wojciechowska@agora.pl  Sat Dec 20 13:10:34 2008
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From kontaktformular@allgaeuer-makler.de  Mon Dec 22 09:56:45 2008
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From nen@accor-services.be  Mon Dec 22 10:23:14 2008
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From nayagan@afterwork.com  Mon Dec 22 13:02:23 2008
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From jennifer.roman@afwa.af.mil  Tue Dec 23 05:13:42 2008
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From members@21minutefitness.com  Wed Dec 24 03:55:14 2008
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From kjones@accredhome.com  Sun Dec 28 21:16:30 2008
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From mheffernan@afwlaw.com  Mon Dec 29 00:17:41 2008
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From j_malrachna@ahlawat.com  Mon Dec 29 10:09:24 2008
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From maurizio.sterpetti@agrileasing.it  Mon Dec 29 10:56:09 2008
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From melmar@agt.net  Tue Dec 30 07:54:03 2008
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From jeh@aktivryg.dk  Tue Dec 30 13:10:20 2008
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From leo@alphy.net  Tue Dec 30 16:19:42 2008
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