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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:52:01 +0200
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Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49BC850@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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> On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org>] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5=
 17:48
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsawg@ietf.org <mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>; =
mud@ietf.org <mailto:mud@ietf.org>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in =
MUD
>=20
> Hi everyone,
>=20
> A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses =
one gap in MUD (there are several).  In a MUD file one can say that one =
wants to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D =
meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =
=E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a =
particular class name of controller.
>=20
> In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and =
populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, =
either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud <https://example.com/mud> or =
a class http://example.com/mudclass1 <http://example.com/mudclass1>.  =
That can be laborious.  To assist, we are examining ways to have a =
controller declare itself as a candidate controller.
>=20
> [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP =
extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s =
declaration? So the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and =
controller, if my understanding is correct.
> I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client =
initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated =
solution.

Can you say a few more words?  I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite =
following you.

Eliot
>=20
>  That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this =
particular device is capable of serving in a particular role.
>=20
> To make that declaration, the device must-
> Form the declaration;
> Find the MUD manager; and
> Send it.
>=20
> Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and =
then place it in various spots.
>=20
> Finding the MUD manager depends on one question:
> Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose =
device that has an app that is intended to be a controller?
>=20
> If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the =
declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension.  If the =
device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. =
 In this case we have two choices:
>=20
> Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this =
doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play.
> Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment.  It is easy =
enough to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a =
mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an =
internal part of the network infrastructure.
>=20
> Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the =
MUD manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the =
user infrastructure, which is a change.
>=20
> One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful =
endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be =
exposed.  But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may =
not.
>=20
> My thinking is that we do this work in two stages.  First handle the =
easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to =
do the app version of this.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Eliot


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" class=3D"">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>OPSAWG [<a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eliot Lear<br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2019</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">6</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">24</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17:48<br class=3D""></span><b=
 class=3D"">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">opsawg@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">mud@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D"">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[OPSAWG] Declaring =
something to be a controller in MUD<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Hi everyone,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">A few of =
us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses one gap in =
MUD (there are several). &nbsp;In a MUD file one can say that one wants =
to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D =
meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =
=E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a =
particular class name of controller.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">In =
either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and =
populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, =
either for MUD URL<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://example.com/mud" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/mud</a>&nbsp;or a class<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://example.com/mudclass1" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">http://example.com/mudclass1</a>. =
&nbsp;That can be laborious. &nbsp;To assist, we are examining ways to =
have a controller declare itself as a candidate controller.<span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qin]: Since =
MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why =
not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the =
RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my =
understanding is correct.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have =
client initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network =
initiated solution.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Can you say a few more words? &nbsp;I=E2=80=99m not =
sure I=E2=80=99m quite following you.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Eliot<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;That at least provides =
a hint to the administrator that this particular device is capable of =
serving in a particular role.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">To make that declaration, the device must-<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Form the =
declaration;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Find the MUD =
manager; and<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Send it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Forming =
the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and then place =
it in various spots.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">Finding the MUD manager depends on one question:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Was the device =
built to be a controller or is it a general purpose device that has an =
app that is intended to be a controller?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">If the =
device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the declaration =
into that devices own MUD file as an extension. &nbsp;If the device is a =
general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. &nbsp;In =
this case we have two choices:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><ul =
type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Either =
create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this doesn=E2=80=99t =
seem very plug and play.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Make =
the declaration directly to the MUD manager.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99=
m going to focus on the latter for the moment. &nbsp;It is easy enough =
to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a =
mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an =
internal part of the network infrastructure.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Let me =
call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the MUD =
manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the user =
infrastructure, which is a change.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">One =
possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful endpoint =
into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be exposed. =
&nbsp;But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may =
not.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">My =
thinking is that we do this work in two stages. &nbsp;First handle the =
easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to =
do the app version of this.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">Thoughts?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">Eliot</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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> On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com =
<mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com =
<mailto:lear@cisco.com>]
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 =
15:52
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com =
<mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com>>
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: opsawg@ietf.org <mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>; =
mud@ietf.org <mailto:mud@ietf.org>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a =
controller in MUD
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com =
<mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org>] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5=
 17:48
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsawg@ietf.org <mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>; =
mud@ietf.org <mailto:mud@ietf.org>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in =
MUD
>=20
> Hi everyone,
>=20
> A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses =
one gap in MUD (there are several).  In a MUD file one can say that one =
wants to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D =
meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =
=E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a =
particular class name of controller.
>=20
> In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and =
populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, =
either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud <https://example.com/mud> or =
a class http://example.com/mudclass1 <http://example.com/mudclass1>.  =
That can be laborious.  To assist, we are examining ways to have a =
controller declare itself as a candidate controller.
>=20
> [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP =
extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s =
declaration? So the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and =
controller, if my understanding is correct.
> I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client =
initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated =
solution.
>=20
> Can you say a few more words?  I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite =
following you.
> [Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with =
controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS =
process, the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned
> To the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to =
the thing, the router or the thing can access controller through =
controller delclartion.
>=20
> If the MUD manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP =
Discovery or DNS process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to =
preconfigure DHCP server with MUD manager information.

I apologize, but I=E2=80=99m not quite following.  Let=E2=80=99s step =
through what I=E2=80=99m trying to solve, and then let=E2=80=99s step =
through your flow.


Device sends a MUD URL X that points to a MUD file that says to permit =
ip access to my-controller.

Now- how do we determine who =E2=80=9Cmy-controller=E2=80=9D for MUD URL =
X is?

Ways to do that:
Ask the administrator (pre-configuration)
Provide the administrator hints
Controller says who it can control (by MUD URLs, etc) or
Device says which controllers (by MUD URL) are good candidates
Other

If it=E2=80=99s the controller, then we can do a RESTful interface.  If =
it=E2=80=99s the device, we already have a communication path.  Nothing =
stops us from doing both.

So now insert your approach.  What steps would you take?

Eliot



>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20
>  That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this =
particular device is capable of serving in a particular role.
>=20
> To make that declaration, the device must-
> Form the declaration;
> Find the MUD manager; and
> Send it.
>=20
> Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and =
then place it in various spots.
>=20
> Finding the MUD manager depends on one question:
> Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose =
device that has an app that is intended to be a controller?
>=20
> If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the =
declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension.  If the =
device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. =
 In this case we have two choices:
>=20
> Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this =
doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play.
> Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment.  It is easy =
enough to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a =
mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an =
internal part of the network infrastructure.
>=20
> Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the =
MUD manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the =
user infrastructure, which is a change.
>=20
> One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful =
endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be =
exposed.  But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may =
not.
>=20
> My thinking is that we do this work in two stages.  First handle the =
easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to =
do the app version of this.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Eliot
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
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class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" class=3D"">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
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0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
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font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Eliot Lear [<a =
href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">mailto:lear@cisco.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=
=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2019</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">7</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">1</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>15:52<br class=3D""></span><b=
 class=3D"">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Qin Wu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D"">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">opsawg@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">mud@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D"">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring =
something to be a controller in MUD<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">OPSAWG [<a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eliot Lear<br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=
=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">2019</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=B9=B4<sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">6</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">24</span>=E6=97=A5<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">17:48<br class=3D""></span><b class=3D"">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=
=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">opsawg@ietf.org</span></a>;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mud@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D"">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">[OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in =
MUD</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Hi everyone,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that =
addresses one gap in MUD (there are several). &nbsp;In a MUD file one =
can say that one wants to access a controller in two ways: either =
"my-controller</span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>meaning a controller that =
services devices of a particular MUD URL or a<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=E2=80=9C<span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">controller</span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>class that =
services devices based on a particular class name of controller.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">In either case, right now the administrator =
has to manually know and populate information, to say - some device =
1.2.3.4 is a controller, either for MUD URL<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://example.com/mud" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/mud</span></a>&nbsp;or a class<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://example.com/mudclass1" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://example.com/mudclass1</span></a>. &nbsp;That can be =
laborious. &nbsp;To assist, we are examining ways to have a controller =
declare itself as a candidate controller.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qin]: Since =
MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why =
not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the =
RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my =
understanding is correct.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I believe this =
is network initiated solution, you might have client initiated solution, =
but probably more complicated than network initiated =
solution.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Can you =
say a few more words? &nbsp;I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite =
following you.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qin]: What I am =
suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s =
declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS process, the =
controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">To the router or switch =
between the thing and MUD manager or return to the thing, the router or =
the thing can access controller through controller delclartion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">If the MUD =
manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP Discovery or DNS =
process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to preconfigure DHCP =
server with MUD manager =
information.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I apologize, but I=E2=80=99m not quite =
following. &nbsp;Let=E2=80=99s step through what I=E2=80=99m trying to =
solve, and then let=E2=80=99s step through your flow.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Device sends a MUD URL X that points to a MUD file that says =
to permit ip access to my-controller.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Now- how do we determine who =
=E2=80=9Cmy-controller=E2=80=9D for MUD URL X is?</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Ways to do that:</div><div =
class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Ask the =
administrator (pre-configuration)</li><li class=3D"">Provide the =
administrator hints</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Controller says =
who it can control (by MUD URLs, etc) or</li><li class=3D"">Device says =
which controllers (by MUD URL) are good candidates</li></ul></ul><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Other</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If it=E2=80=99s the controller, then we =
can do a RESTful interface. &nbsp;If it=E2=80=99s the device, we already =
have a communication path. &nbsp;Nothing stops us from doing =
both.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So now =
insert your approach. &nbsp;What steps would you take?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eliot</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Eliot<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;That at least provides =
a hint to the administrator that this particular device is capable of =
serving in a particular role.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">To make that declaration, the device must-<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><ul =
type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">Form the declaration;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Find =
the MUD manager; and<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Send =
it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Forming the declaration is easy: we can make =
this a YANG grouping and then place it in various spots.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Finding the MUD manager depends on one =
question:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: =
0cm;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Was the device built to be a controller or is =
it a general purpose device that has an app that is intended to be a =
controller?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">If the device was built to be a controller, we =
can simply cram the declaration into that devices own MUD file as an =
extension. &nbsp;If the device is a general purpose computer, things get =
a bit more interesting. &nbsp;In this case we have two choices:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: =
0cm;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Either create a MUD file that points somewhere =
internally - this doesn</span>=E2=80=99<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">t =
seem very plug and play.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Make =
the declaration directly to the MUD manager.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">I</span>=E2=80=99<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">m going to =
focus on the latter for the moment. &nbsp;It is easy enough to create a =
RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism to =
discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal part =
of the network infrastructure.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Let me call this out plainly: letting the app =
itself directly call the MUD manager requires that the MUD manager =
itself become exposed to the user infrastructure, which is a change.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">One possibility to address this is to =
incorporate the new RESTful endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, =
which may already be exposed. &nbsp;But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI =
be in play, which it may not.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">My thinking is that we do this work in two =
stages. &nbsp;First handle the easy case, which is the MUD file =
extension, and then figure out how to do the app version of this.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Thoughts?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Eliot<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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<span itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/InformAction"><span style=3D"=
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s-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:1.4;border:1px Solid #fff;background:#ff=
f;color:#090;font-weight:normal"><strong>You have been invited to the follo=
wing event.</strong></h4><div style=3D"padding:2px"><span itemprop=3D"publi=
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ails &raquo;</a><br></div><h3 style=3D"padding:0 0 6px 0;margin:0;font-fami=
ly:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:16px;font-weight:bold;color:#222"><span itemp=
rop=3D"name">MUD/IoT onboarding</span></h3><table cellpadding=3D"0" cellspa=
cing=3D"0" border=3D"0" summary=3D"Event details"><tr><td style=3D"padding:=
0 1em 10px 0;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#888;white-s=
pace:nowrap;width:90px" valign=3D"top"><div><i style=3D"font-style:normal">=
When</i></div></td><td style=3D"padding-bottom:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-=
serif;font-size:13px;color:#222" valign=3D"top"><div style=3D"text-indent:-=
1px"><time itemprop=3D"startDate" datetime=3D"20190722T123000Z"></time><tim=
e itemprop=3D"endDate" datetime=3D"20190722T143000Z"></time>Mon 2019-07-22 =
08:30 =E2=80=93 10:30 <span style=3D"color:#888">Eastern Time - Toronto</sp=
an></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding:0 1em 10px 0;font-family:Arial,=
Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#888;white-space:nowrap;width:90px" valign=
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=3D"padding-bottom:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#=
222" valign=3D"top"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span itemprop=3D"locat=
ion" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Place"><span itemprop=3D"name"=
 class=3D"notranslate">C2 on 22st floor</span><span dir=3D"ltr"> (<a href=
=3D"https://www.google.com/maps/search/C2+on+22st+floor?hl=3Den" style=3D"c=
olor:#20c;white-space:nowrap" target=3D"_blank" itemprop=3D"map">map</a>)</=
span></span></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding:0 1em 10px 0;font-fami=
ly:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#888;white-space:nowrap;width:90px=
" valign=3D"top"><div><i style=3D"font-style:normal">Calendar</i></div></td=
><td style=3D"padding-bottom:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13=
px;color:#222" valign=3D"top"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px">mud@ietf.org<=
/div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding:0 1em 10px 0;font-family:Arial,Sans=
-serif;font-size:13px;color:#888;white-space:nowrap;width:90px" valign=3D"t=
op"><div><i style=3D"font-style:normal">Who</i></div></td><td style=3D"padd=
ing-bottom:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222" val=
ign=3D"top"><table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0"><tr><td style=3D"pad=
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h:10px"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier =
New,monospace">&#x2022;</span></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;fo=
nt-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-in=
dent:-1px"><div><div style=3D"margin:0 0 0.3em 0"><span itemprop=3D"attende=
e" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><span itemprop=3D"name" =
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e itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/Person"><meta itemprop=3D"name" content=3D"=
mcharlesr@gmail.com"/><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"mcharlesr@gmail.c=
om"/></span><span style=3D"font-size:11px;color:#888"> - organizer</span></=
div></div></div></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:A=
rial,Sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#222;width:10px"><div style=3D"text-in=
dent:-1px"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier New,monospace">&#x2022;</span=
></div></td><td style=3D"padding-right:10px;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:13px;color:#222"><div style=3D"text-indent:-1px"><div><div style=3D=
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f.org</span><meta itemprop=3D"email" content=3D"mud@ietf.org"/></span></div=
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22;font-size:13px;margin:0"><span style=3D"color:#888">Going (mud@ietf.org)=
?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><wbr><strong><span itemprop=3D"potentialaction" i=
temscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAction"><meta itemprop=3D"attend=
ance" content=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAttendance/Yes"/><span itemprop=3D"h=
andler" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/HttpActionHandler"><link it=
emprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpRequestMethod/GET"/><a href=
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n" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/RsvpAction"><meta itemprop=3D"at=
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p=3D"handler" itemscope itemtype=3D"http://schema.org/HttpActionHandler"><l=
ink itemprop=3D"method" href=3D"http://schema.org/HttpRequestMethod/GET"/><=
a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DRESPOND&amp;eid=3D=
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g>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<wbr><a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/e=
vent?action=3DVIEW&amp;eid=3DN2JrcmlwMXFlcHB0dnUyaWFpNzIwa3N2N2IgbXVkQGlldG=
Yub3Jn&amp;tok=3DMTkjbWNoYXJsZXNyQGdtYWlsLmNvbTkzMzcwMjgyYzhjNzhkMTEzZGZkNT=
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0" style=3D"color:#20c;white-space:nowrap" itemprop=3D"url">more options &r=
aquo;</a></p></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"background-color:#f6f6f6;color:#888=
;border-top:1px Solid #ccc;font-family:Arial,Sans-serif;font-size:11px"><p>=
Invitation from <a href=3D"https://www.google.com/calendar/" target=3D"_bla=
nk" style=3D"">Google Calendar</a></p><p>You are receiving this courtesy em=
ail at the account mud@ietf.org because you are an attendee of this event.<=
/p><p>To stop receiving future updates for this event, decline this event. =
Alternatively you can sign up for a Google account at https://www.google.co=
m/calendar/ and control your notification settings for your entire calendar=
.</p><p>Forwarding this invitation could allow any recipient to send a resp=
onse to the organizer and be added to the guest list, or invite others rega=
rdless of their own invitation status, or to modify your RSVP. <a href=3D"h=
ttps://support.google.com/calendar/answer/37135#forwarding">Learn More</a>.=
</p></td></tr></table></div></span></span>
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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Qin and others:

Just to get the ball rolling, I=E2=80=99ve posted today =
draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00.

I think this should help the discussion.

Eliot

> On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com =
<mailto:lear@cisco.com>]
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 =
15:52
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com =
<mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com>>
> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: opsawg@ietf.org <mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>; =
mud@ietf.org <mailto:mud@ietf.org>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a =
controller in MUD
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com =
<mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org>] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eliot Lear
> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5=
 17:48
> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: opsawg@ietf.org <mailto:opsawg@ietf.org>; =
mud@ietf.org <mailto:mud@ietf.org>
> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in =
MUD
>=20
> Hi everyone,
>=20
> A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses =
one gap in MUD (there are several).  In a MUD file one can say that one =
wants to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D =
meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =
=E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D class that services devices based on a =
particular class name of controller.
>=20
> In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and =
populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, =
either for MUD URL https://example.com/mud <https://example.com/mud> or =
a class http://example.com/mudclass1 <http://example.com/mudclass1>.  =
That can be laborious.  To assist, we are examining ways to have a =
controller declare itself as a candidate controller.
>=20
> [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP =
extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s =
declaration? So the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and =
controller, if my understanding is correct.
> I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client =
initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated =
solution.
>=20
> Can you say a few more words?  I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite =
following you.
> [Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with =
controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS =
process, the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned
> To the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to =
the thing, the router or the thing can access controller through =
controller delclartion.
>=20
> If the MUD manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP =
Discovery or DNS process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to =
preconfigure DHCP server with MUD manager information.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>=20
>  That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this =
particular device is capable of serving in a particular role.
>=20
> To make that declaration, the device must-
> Form the declaration;
> Find the MUD manager; and
> Send it.
>=20
> Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and =
then place it in various spots.
>=20
> Finding the MUD manager depends on one question:
> Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose =
device that has an app that is intended to be a controller?
>=20
> If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the =
declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension.  If the =
device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting. =
 In this case we have two choices:
>=20
> Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this =
doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play.
> Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment.  It is easy =
enough to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a =
mechanism to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an =
internal part of the network infrastructure.
>=20
> Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the =
MUD manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the =
user infrastructure, which is a change.
>=20
> One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful =
endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be =
exposed.  But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may =
not.
>=20
> My thinking is that we do this work in two stages.  First handle the =
easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to =
do the app version of this.
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
> Eliot
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Qin =
and others:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Just to =
get the ball rolling, I=E2=80=99ve posted today&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00.</span></div><di=
v class=3D""><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
14px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></font></div><div class=3D"">I =
think this should help the discussion.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eliot<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" class=3D"">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Eliot Lear [<a =
href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">mailto:lear@cisco.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=
=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2019</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">7</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">1</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>15:52<br class=3D""></span><b=
 class=3D"">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Qin Wu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D"">=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">opsawg@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">mud@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D"">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring =
something to be a controller in MUD<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">OPSAWG [<a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eliot Lear<br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=
=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">2019</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E5=B9=B4<sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">6</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">24</span>=E6=97=A5<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">17:48<br class=3D""></span><b class=3D"">=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=
=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">opsawg@ietf.org</span></a>;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mud@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""></span><b =
class=3D"">=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">[OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in =
MUD</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Hi everyone,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that =
addresses one gap in MUD (there are several). &nbsp;In a MUD file one =
can say that one wants to access a controller in two ways: either =
"my-controller</span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>meaning a controller that =
services devices of a particular MUD URL or a<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=E2=80=9C<span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">controller</span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>class that =
services devices based on a particular class name of controller.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">In either case, right now the administrator =
has to manually know and populate information, to say - some device =
1.2.3.4 is a controller, either for MUD URL<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://example.com/mud" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://example.com/mud</span></a>&nbsp;or a class<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://example.com/mudclass1" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://example.com/mudclass1</span></a>. &nbsp;That can be =
laborious. &nbsp;To assist, we are examining ways to have a controller =
declare itself as a candidate controller.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qin]: Since =
MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why =
not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the =
RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my =
understanding is correct.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I believe this =
is network initiated solution, you might have client initiated solution, =
but probably more complicated than network initiated =
solution.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Can you =
say a few more words? &nbsp;I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite =
following you.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">[Qin]: What I am =
suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s =
declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS process, the =
controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">To the router or switch =
between the thing and MUD manager or return to the thing, the router or =
the thing can access controller through controller delclartion.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">If the MUD =
manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP Discovery or DNS =
process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to preconfigure DHCP =
server with MUD manager information.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Eliot<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;That at least provides =
a hint to the administrator that this particular device is capable of =
serving in a particular role.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">To make that declaration, the device must-<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><ul =
type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">Form the declaration;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Find =
the MUD manager; and<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Send =
it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Forming the declaration is easy: we can make =
this a YANG grouping and then place it in various spots.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Finding the MUD manager depends on one =
question:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: =
0cm;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Was the device built to be a controller or is =
it a general purpose device that has an app that is intended to be a =
controller?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">If the device was built to be a controller, we =
can simply cram the declaration into that devices own MUD file as an =
extension. &nbsp;If the device is a general purpose computer, things get =
a bit more interesting. &nbsp;In this case we have two choices:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: =
0cm;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Either create a MUD file that points somewhere =
internally - this doesn</span>=E2=80=99<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">t =
seem very plug and play.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;"><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Make =
the declaration directly to the MUD manager.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></li></ul><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">I</span>=E2=80=99<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">m going to =
focus on the latter for the moment. &nbsp;It is easy enough to create a =
RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism to =
discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal part =
of the network infrastructure.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Let me call this out plainly: letting the app =
itself directly call the MUD manager requires that the MUD manager =
itself become exposed to the user infrastructure, which is a change.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">One possibility to address this is to =
incorporate the new RESTful endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, =
which may already be exposed. &nbsp;But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI =
be in play, which it may not.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">My thinking is that we do this work in two =
stages. &nbsp;First handle the easy case, which is the MUD file =
extension, and then figure out how to do the app version of this.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Thoughts?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: =E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Eliot<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 07:51:50 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Mud] Side meeting at the IETF Montreal - call for agenda items
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 The following draft looks interesting:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lear-opsawg-mud-bw-profile-00

Are there any plans for follow-on work?

(I'd like to bring it up for discussion during the side meeting ).

Regards

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 12:49 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>     > A number of people have contacted me about meeting in Montreal, and
>     > that they wouldn=E2=80=99t be available after Tuesday.  Convenientl=
y, Monday
>     > morning is reserved for side meetings.  I propose we take advantage
> of
>     > this from 9:00 - 10:30 (yes, this bleeds into the 1st session).
>
> It bleeds into teep, and I'm curious about the loops BOF, so I probably
> take
> off at the appointed time.
>
>     > I=E2=80=99ve combined MUD and IoT Onboarding, just to save time, as=
 there is
>     > substantial community overlap.  That=E2=80=99s because the spaces a=
re clearly
>     > related, one being authentication of the device the other being
> network
>     > authorization.
>
> Agreed.
>
>     > This, then, is a call for agenda items.  I have a few of my own, bu=
t
>     > would prefer to hear from others first.  Also, are you ok with the
>     > Monday morning time slot and keeping these activities together?
>
>     > Ps: reminder: side meetings are not =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D anyt=
hing.  Just a
>     > gathering of people with a common interest.  However, the meeting
> will
>     > run under the IPR rules of the IETF, regardless.  All are invited.
>
> So, I'm not sure if you are asking for BRSKI items, or IoT onboarding
> items in general.
>
> 1) Under BRSKI for non-ANIMA ACP uses, there is the question about
> open/closed
>    registrars, and operational considerations of total sales channel
> integration
>    (MASA knows the customers), vs retail integration (no knowledge of
>    customers).  There are probably areas of grey in between that might be
>    worth enumerating.
>
> 2) There is a similar question for MUD, which is how does the MUD
> controller
>    arrive at trust criteria for the signatures.  This is the
>    enterprise/customer side of the above story: do you know who you are
>    buying from?
>    This relates to the discussion we have had about controllers: I think =
if
>    we could pin down the quality of the signatures, we could say more.
>
> 3) MUD Operational considerations for devices that can grow "skills"
>
> Not really a topic exactly: but how do we get towards the point where we
> can test
> MUD/BRSKI integration.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
> --
> Mud mailing list
> Mud@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud
>


--=20
M. Ranganathan

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<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>The following draft looks interesting:<br></div><div><br></div><div><a=
 href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lear-opsawg-mud-bw-profile-00">h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lear-opsawg-mud-bw-profile-00</a></div><di=
v><br></div><div>Are there any plans for follow-on work?</div><div><br></di=
v><div>(I&#39;d like to bring it up for discussion during the side meeting =
).</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div>

</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 12:49 PM Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
cr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; A number of people have contacted me about meeting in Mo=
ntreal, and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; that they wouldn=E2=80=99t be available after Tuesday.=
=C2=A0 Conveniently, Monday<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; morning is reserved for side meetings.=C2=A0 I propose w=
e take advantage of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; this from 9:00 - 10:30 (yes, this bleeds into the 1st se=
ssion).<br>
<br>
It bleeds into teep, and I&#39;m curious about the loops BOF, so I probably=
 take<br>
off at the appointed time.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I=E2=80=99ve combined MUD and IoT Onboarding, just to sa=
ve time, as there is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; substantial community overlap.=C2=A0 That=E2=80=99s beca=
use the spaces are clearly<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; related, one being authentication of the device the othe=
r being network<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; authorization.<br>
<br>
Agreed.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; This, then, is a call for agenda items.=C2=A0 I have a f=
ew of my own, but<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; would prefer to hear from others first.=C2=A0 Also, are =
you ok with the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Monday morning time slot and keeping these activities to=
gether?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Ps: reminder: side meetings are not =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=
=80=9D anything.=C2=A0 Just a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; gathering of people with a common interest.=C2=A0 Howeve=
r, the meeting will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; run under the IPR rules of the IETF, regardless.=C2=A0 A=
ll are invited.<br>
<br>
So, I&#39;m not sure if you are asking for BRSKI items, or IoT onboarding i=
tems in general.<br>
<br>
1) Under BRSKI for non-ANIMA ACP uses, there is the question about open/clo=
sed<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0registrars, and operational considerations of total sales chan=
nel integration<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MASA knows the customers), vs retail integration (no knowledg=
e of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0customers).=C2=A0 There are probably areas of grey in between =
that might be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0worth enumerating.<br>
<br>
2) There is a similar question for MUD, which is how does the MUD controlle=
r<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0arrive at trust criteria for the signatures.=C2=A0 This is the=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0enterprise/customer side of the above story: do you know who y=
ou are<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0buying from?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This relates to the discussion we have had about controllers: =
I think if<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0we could pin down the quality of the signatures, we could say =
more.<br>
<br>
3) MUD Operational considerations for devices that can grow &quot;skills&qu=
ot;<br>
<br>
Not really a topic exactly: but how do we get towards the point where we ca=
n test<br>
MUD/BRSKI integration.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
-- <br>
Mud mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mud@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. Ranganathan <br><br><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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In-Reply-To: <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com>
From: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:51:06 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHiu4JNMrZMX8upAnwEU1qvGie5WTONSsnWU8LfOfYO2Yh+CFg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Cc: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 6:26 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> Qin and others:
>
> Just to get the ball rolling, I=E2=80=99ve posted today
> draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00.
>
> I think this should help the discussion.
>
> Eliot
>

Hello Eliot,

In a similar vein to the question Qin is asking, I have a question (we
could discuss during the upcoming IETF side meeting if you don't have time
to respond now).

What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be a
"controller" for another class and the situation where the device (being
controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE?

If a device with mud URL  https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1 is a
controller for device coffemaker.nist.local, then simply declare an ACE in
the coffeemaker MUD file, with a Model abstraction naming
toothbursh.nist.local :

       {
              "name": "man0-todev",
              "matches": {
                "ietf-mud:mud": {
              "model": "https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1"
                },
                "ipv4": {
                  "protocol": 17
                },
                "udp": {
                  "source-port": {
                    "operator": "eq",
                    "port": 8008
                  }
                }
              }

(similarly in the "frdev")


What is the difference (in behavior) between this and the new mechanism
proposed in the draft?

Thanks, Ranga


>
> On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com <lear@ci=
sco.com>]
> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5=
 15:52
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:* opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller=
 in MUD
>
>
>
>
> On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org <op=
sawg-bounces@ietf.org>]
> *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Eliot Lear
> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=
=A5 17:48
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in =
MUD
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> A few of us are just trying to put out an initial draft that addresses on=
e
> gap in MUD (there are several).  In a MUD file one can say that one wants
> to access a controller in two ways: either "my-controller=E2=80=9D meanin=
g a
> controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or a =E2=80=9Cco=
ntroller=E2=80=9D
>  class that services devices based on a particular class name of
> controller.
>
> In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and
> populate information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, eithe=
r
> for MUD URL https://example.com/mud or a class
> http://example.com/mudclass1.  That can be laborious.  To assist, we are
> examining ways to have a controller declare itself as a candidate
> controller.
>
> [Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP
> extension, why not configure MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declar=
ation? So
> the RESTFUL interface can be defined between NMS and controller, if my
> understanding is correct.
> I believe this is network initiated solution, you might have client
> initiated solution, but probably more complicated than network initiated
> solution.
>
>
> Can you say a few more words?  I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite fol=
lowing you.
> [Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfigures the MUD manager with
> controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, during DHCP process or DNS =
process,
> the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can be returned
> To the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to th=
e
> thing, the router or the thing can access controller through controller
> delclartion.
>
> If the MUD manager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP
> Discovery or DNS process can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to
> preconfigure DHCP server with MUD manager information.
>
> Eliot
>
>
>  That at least provides a hint to the administrator that this particular
> device is capable of serving in a particular role.
>
> To make that declaration, the device must-
>
>    - Form the declaration;
>    - Find the MUD manager; and
>    - Send it.
>
>
> Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping and the=
n
> place it in various spots.
>
> Finding the MUD manager depends on one question:
>
>    - Was the device built to be a controller or is it a general purpose
>    device that has an app that is intended to be a controller?
>
>
> If the device was built to be a controller, we can simply cram the
> declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension.  If the devic=
e
> is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more interesting.  In thi=
s
> case we have two choices:
>
>
>    - Either create a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this
>    doesn=E2=80=99t seem very plug and play.
>    - Make the declaration directly to the MUD manager.
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m going to focus on the latter for the moment.  It is easy enou=
gh to
> create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism =
to
> discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal part =
of
> the network infrastructure.
>
> Let me call this out plainly: letting the app itself directly call the MU=
D
> manager requires that the MUD manager itself become exposed to the user
> infrastructure, which is a change.
>
> One possibility to address this is to incorporate the new RESTful endpoin=
t
> into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already be exposed.  But th=
at
> requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it may not.
>
> My thinking is that we do this work in two stages.  First handle the easy
> case, which is the MUD file extension, and then figure out how to do the
> app version of this.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Eliot
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mud mailing list
> Mud@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud
>


--=20
M. Ranganathan

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 6:26 AM=
 Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@ci=
sco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div>Qin and others:<div><br></div><div>Just to get the ball rolling=
, I=E2=80=99ve posted today=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:Menlo;font-size=
:14px">draft-lear-opsawg-mud-controller-candidates-00.</span></div><div><fo=
nt face=3D"Menlo"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><br></span></font></div><d=
iv>I think this should help the discussion.</div><div><br></div><div>Eliot<=
br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>Hello Eliot,</div><div=
><br></div><div>In a similar vein to the=20
question Qin is asking, I have a question (we could discuss during the=20
upcoming IETF side meeting if you don&#39;t have time to respond now). <br>=
</div><div><br></div><div>What
 is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be a=20
&quot;controller&quot; for another class and the situation where the device=
 (being controlled) just uses the &quot;model&quot; abstraction in
 an ACE? <br></div><div><br></div><div>If a device with mud URL=C2=A0=20
<a href=3D"https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1">https://toothbrush.nist.lo=
cal/super1</a> is a controller for device=20
coffemaker.nist.local, then simply declare an ACE in the coffeemaker MUD fi=
le, with a Model=20
abstraction naming toothbursh.nist.local :<br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &quot;name&quot;: &quot;man0-todev&quot;,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;matches&quot;: {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;ietf-mud:mud&quot;: {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;model&quot;: &quot;<a href=3D"=
https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1">https://toothbrush.nist.local/super1<=
/a>&quot;<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 },<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;ipv4&quot;: {=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;pr=
otocol&quot;: 17<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 },<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;udp&qu=
ot;: {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &q=
uot;source-port&quot;: {<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;operator&quot;: &quot;eq&quot;,<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;port&q=
uot;: 8008<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 }<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>(s=
imilarly in the &quot;frdev&quot;)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
What is the difference (in behavior) between this and the new mechanism pro=
posed in the draft?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks, Ranga</div></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><di=
v><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 1 Jul 2019, at 10:23, Qin Wu &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">bill.wu@huawei.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661=
570595705Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class=3D"m_895633353402039743=
3gmail-m_4821330661570595705WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;fo=
nt-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;=
letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,=
sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span>=
</b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=
=E9=BB=91,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gm=
ail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Eliot Lear [<a=
 href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:under=
line" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lear@cisco.com</a>]<span class=3D"m_89563335=
34020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
br></span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=
=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4<span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><span class=
=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0</span>2019</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=
=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">7</sp=
an>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">1</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US"><spa=
n class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span>15:52<br></span><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lan=
g=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span class=3D"m_8956333534020=
397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Qin Wu=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decor=
ation:underline" target=3D"_blank">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br></span><b>=
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><sp=
an class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted=
-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purp=
le;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">opsawg@ietf.org</a>;<span c=
lass=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">mud@ietf.org</a><br></span><b>=E4=
=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"><span =
class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-sp=
ace">=C2=A0</span>Re: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MU=
D<u></u><u></u></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br><br><u></u><u></u></=
span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div=
 style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=
=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On 1 Jul 2019, at 09:20, Qin Wu &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank">bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span><=
/div></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div>=
<div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=
=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m=
_4821330661570595705apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">=
=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=
=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">OPSAWG [<a href=3D"mail=
to:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf=
.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_482133066157059=
5705apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E4=BB=A3=
=E8=A1=A8<span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705app=
le-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></span></span></b><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91=
,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">Eliot Lear<br></span><b><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E5=8F=
=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span=
 class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705apple-converted-s=
pace"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=
=E9=BB=91,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif" la=
ng=3D"EN-US">2019</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=
=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">6</sp=
an>=E6=9C=88<span lang=3D"EN-US">24</span>=E6=97=A5<span class=3D"m_8956333=
534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D=
"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">17:48<br></span><b>=E6=94=
=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span class=3D"m_8956=
333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705apple-converted-space"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><a href=3D"mailto:opsaw=
g@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_bla=
nk"><span style=3D"color:purple">opsawg@ietf.org</span></a>;<span class=3D"=
m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decora=
tion:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">mud@ietf.org=
</span></a><br></span><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b=
><span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705apple-conve=
rted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">[=
OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD</span></span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm=
 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"=
EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm=
 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"=
EN-US">Hi everyone,<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div><div style=3D=
"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=
=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">A few of us are just trying to put out an init=
ial draft that addresses one gap in MUD (there are several).=C2=A0 In a MUD=
 file one can say that one wants to access a controller in two ways: either=
 &quot;my-controller</span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"EN-US"><span class=3D"m_8=
956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>meaning a controller that services devices of a particular MUD URL or=
 a<span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705Apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>=E2=80=9C<span lang=3D"EN-US">controller</=
span>=E2=80=9D<span lang=3D"EN-US"><span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmai=
l-m_4821330661570595705Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>class that servi=
ces devices based on a particular class name of controller.<u></u><u></u></=
span></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font=
-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></=
u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
In either case, right now the administrator has to manually know and popula=
te information, to say - some device 1.2.3.4 is a controller, either for MU=
D URL<span class=3D"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705apple-c=
onverted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://example.com/mud" style=3D"c=
olor:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"col=
or:purple">https://example.com/mud</span></a>=C2=A0or a class<span class=3D=
"m_8956333534020397433gmail-m_4821330661570595705apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><a href=3D"http://example.com/mudclass1" style=3D"color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">htt=
p://example.com/mudclass1</span></a>.=C2=A0 That can be laborious.=C2=A0 To=
 assist, we are examining ways to have a controller declare itself as a can=
didate controller.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"=
 lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">[Qin]: Since MUD in RFC8520=
 has already specify DNS extension and DHCP extension, why not configure MU=
D manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration? So the RESTFUL interface c=
an be defined between NMS and controller, if my understanding is correct.</=
span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">I believe this is network initiated solution, you =
might have client initiated solution, but probably more complicated than ne=
twork initiated solution.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Can you =
say a few more words?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99m quite followin=
g you.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">[Qin]: What I am suggesting is NMS preconfig=
ures the MUD manager with controller=E2=80=99s declaration information, dur=
ing DHCP process or DNS process, the controller=E2=80=99s declaration can b=
e returned<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;=
font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">To =
the router or switch between the thing and MUD manager or return to the thi=
ng, the router or the thing can access controller through controller delcla=
rtion.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font=
-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=3D"EN-US">If the MUD man=
ager also needs to be advertised to the thing, DHCP Discovery or DNS proces=
s can be leveraged. In this case, NMS needs to preconfigure DHCP server wit=
h MUD manager information.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Eliot<br><br><u></u><u></u></span></div><blockquote style=3D"=
margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0=
cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)" lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></div></d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0That at least provides a hin=
t to the administrator that this particular device is capable of serving in=
 a particular role.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=
=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=
=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">To make that declaration, the device =
must-<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><ul style=3D"margin-bottom=
:0cm;margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">Form the declaration;<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=
=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Find the MUD manager; and<u></u><u></u><=
/span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Send it.<u></u=
><u></u></span></li></ul><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0c=
m 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D=
"EN-US">Forming the declaration is easy: we can make this a YANG grouping a=
nd then place it in various spots.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div><=
/div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;f=
ont-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Finding the MUD manager=
 depends on one question:<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><ul st=
yle=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=
=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Was the device built to be a controller or =
is it a general purpose device that has an app that is intended to be a con=
troller?<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0=
cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US">If the device was built to be a controller, we can si=
mply cram the declaration into that devices own MUD file as an extension.=
=C2=A0 If the device is a general purpose computer, things get a bit more i=
nteresting.=C2=A0 In this case we have two choices:<u></u><u></u></span></d=
iv></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12=
pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></span></div></div></div><div><ul style=3D"margin-bottom:0cm;margin-top:0c=
m" type=3D"disc"><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;f=
ont-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Either c=
reate a MUD file that points somewhere internally - this doesn</span>=E2=80=
=99<span lang=3D"EN-US">t seem very plug and play.<u></u><u></u></span></li=
><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fo=
nt-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Make the declaration dir=
ectly to the MUD manager.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I</span>=E2=80=99<span lang=3D"EN-=
US">m going to focus on the latter for the moment.=C2=A0 It is easy enough =
to create a RESTful interface for this purpose, but it requires a mechanism=
 to discovered the MUD manager, which up until now has been an internal par=
t of the network infrastructure.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=
=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></di=
v></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font=
-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Let me call this out plain=
ly: letting the app itself directly call the MUD manager requires that the =
MUD manager itself become exposed to the user infrastructure, which is a ch=
ange.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div styl=
e=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"=
><span lang=3D"EN-US">One possibility to address this is to incorporate the=
 new RESTful endpoint into an ANIMA BRSKI join registrar, which may already=
 be exposed.=C2=A0 But that requires that ANIMA BRSKI be in play, which it =
may not.<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=
=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">My thinking is that we do this work in two stages=
.=C2=A0 First handle the easy case, which is the MUD file extension, and th=
en figure out how to do the app version of this.<u></u><u></u></span></div>=
</div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
span></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font=
-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thoughts?<u=
></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm=
 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">Eliot<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:=
=E5=AE=8B=E4=BD=93"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>-- <br>
Mud mailing list<br>
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"m=
_8956333534020397433gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. =
Ranganathan <br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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Cc: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
To: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49BC8F3@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> <CAHiu4JNMrZMX8upAnwEU1qvGie5WTONSsnWU8LfOfYO2Yh+CFg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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Hi Ranga,

> On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to =
be a "controller" for another class and the situation where the device =
(being controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE?


You could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D,

--Apple-Mail=_9AF038A6-CDD0-482A-A20F-519512AB4E8D
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ranga,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mranga@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mranga@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">What is the essential difference =
between a device declaring itself to be a "controller" for another class =
and the situation where the device (being controlled) just uses the =
"model" abstraction in an ACE?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></div></blockquote></d=
iv><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You=
 could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D,&nbsp;</div></body></ht=
ml>=

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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Cc: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
To: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49BC8F3@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <230EB786-36AB-4E79-A6DD-20278E895763@cisco.com> <CAHiu4JNMrZMX8upAnwEU1qvGie5WTONSsnWU8LfOfYO2Yh+CFg@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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Hi Ranga,

Sorry for the pre-mature send.

> On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to =
be a "controller" for another class and the situation where the device =
(being controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE?
>=20

You could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D.  The reason I =
hadn=E2=80=99t thought of that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer =
and model were for NxN communications, and that it might be a hint to =
the NMS to use appropriate scale mechanisms.  But that=E2=80=99s not =
actually in the text.

I think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another reason to think about =
doing this from the controller side: if the standards are open like we =
like them to be, a device may not know who should be the controller for =
a particular device or class.

Eliot

--Apple-Mail=_5FC2D4BD-8A03-40E3-954E-982BC5CFF986
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ranga,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sorry for the =
pre-mature send.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. =
Ranganathan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mranga@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mranga@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">What =
is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be a =
"controller" for another class and the situation where the device (being =
controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You could indeed do this with =
=E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;The reason I hadn=E2=80=99t thought of =
that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer and model were for NxN =
communications, and that it might be a hint to the NMS to use =
appropriate scale mechanisms. &nbsp;But that=E2=80=99s not actually in =
the text.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another reason to think about =
doing this from the controller side: if the standards are open like we =
like them to be, a device may not know who should be the controller for =
a particular device or class.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eliot</div></body></html>=

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In-Reply-To: <FCFACB31-934A-4DED-A522-A6B13B40EA11@cisco.com>
From: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 13:21:56 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHiu4JO-0JMB1UEsH3LwbHVM6bXR+rsnFdB6=3A3ZtX1YHnR6g@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Cc: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mud/8-jdjBGQCZL59UWiNESiKpSuCJY>
Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] Declaring something to be a controller in MUD
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Hello Eliot,

On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 2:10 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Ranga,
>
> Sorry for the pre-mature send.
>
> On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What is the essential difference between a device declaring itself to be =
a
> "controller" for another class and the situation where the device (being
> controlled) just uses the "model" abstraction in an ACE?
>
>
> You could indeed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D.  The reason I hadn=
=E2=80=99t thought of
> that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer and model were for NxN
> communications, and that it might be a hint to the NMS to use appropriate
> scale mechanisms.  But that=E2=80=99s not actually in the text.
>
> I think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another reason to think about d=
oing this
> from the controller side: if the standards are open like we like them to
> be, a device may not know who should be the controller for a particular
> device or class.
>
>
Yes I agree with your reasoning - especially the second part. I think some
wording providing justification for this in the draft would be good  (maybe
even as an addendum to the MUD specification).

Looking forward to further discussion on how applications can become
controllers.

Regards, Ranga

> Eliot
>


--=20
M. Ranganathan

--0000000000007479be058cb5fdb7
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div>Hello Eliot,</div><div><br=
></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr=
">On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 2:10 AM Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisc=
o.com">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Hi Ranga,<di=
v><br></div><div>Sorry for the pre-mature send.<br><div><br><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div>On 1 Jul 2019, at 20:51, M. Ranganathan &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:mranga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mranga@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div=
><br class=3D"gmail-m_4619809254408507825Apple-interchange-newline"><div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none">What is the essential difference between a device declar=
ing itself to be a &quot;controller&quot; for another class and the situati=
on where the device (being controlled) just uses the &quot;model&quot; abst=
raction in an ACE?<span class=3D"gmail-m_4619809254408507825Apple-converted=
-space">=C2=A0</span><br></div><br class=3D"gmail-m_4619809254408507825Appl=
e-interchange-newline"></div></blockquote></div><br></div><div>You could in=
deed do this with =E2=80=9Cmodel=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 The reason I hadn=E2=80=99=
t thought of that was because in my mind, same-manufacturer and model were =
for NxN communications, and that it might be a hint to the NMS to use appro=
priate scale mechanisms.=C2=A0 But that=E2=80=99s not actually in the text.=
</div><div><br></div><div>I think, by the way, that there=E2=80=99s another=
 reason to think about doing this from the controller side: if the standard=
s are open like we like them to be, a device may not know who should be the=
 controller for a particular device or class.</div><div><br></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes I agree with your reasoning - especially =
the second part. I think some wording providing justification for this in t=
he draft would be good=C2=A0 (maybe even as an addendum to the MUD specific=
ation).<br></div><div><br> </div><div>Looking forward to further discussion=
 on how applications can become controllers.<br></div><div><br></div><div>R=
egards, Ranga<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div></div><div>Eliot</div></div></=
blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. Ranganathan <br><br></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 16:48:35 +0200
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Subject: [Mud] Hackathon survey results
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Hi everyone,

Here are the poll results for the Hackathon.  I think we need to do some =
work on reporting and interoperability testing.  I will also be prepared =
to work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined =
in the spec).  The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT.

Eliot



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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Hi everyone,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Here are the poll results for the Hackathon. &nbsp;I think we need to do some work on reporting and interoperability testing. &nbsp;I will also be prepared to work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined in the spec). &nbsp;The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Eliot</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><img apple-inline="yes" id="4172281C-ACE0-4D10-934E-89B41004B5A9" src="cid:22DF3369-F89C-4BF7-9867-57BF83CB4238@cisco.com" class=""></body></html>
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From: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 10:23:08 -0400
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To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] Hackathon survey results
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Hello Eliot,

Thanks for the survey. Please let us know by Wednesday next week if anybody
( i.e. "manufacturers" especially ) have signed up to bring IOT devices for
interop testing so we, the MUD implementers can know whether or not to
bring a lot of gear. I prefer to travel light if nobody signs up. If
anybody does sign up, we should spin up MUD profiles for these devices.

Best regards,

Ranga




On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 10:48 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Here are the poll results for the Hackathon.  I think we need to do some
> work on reporting and interoperability testing.  I will also be prepared to
> work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined in
> the spec).  The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT.
>
> Eliot
>
>
> --
> Mud mailing list
> Mud@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud
>


-- 
M. Ranganathan

--00000000000034ffbc058d1813a3
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello Eliot,</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the =
survey. Please let us know by Wednesday next week if anybody ( i.e. &quot;m=
anufacturers&quot; especially ) have signed up to bring IOT devices for int=
erop testing so we, the MUD implementers can know whether or not to bring a=
 lot of gear. I prefer to travel light if nobody signs up. If anybody does =
sign up, we should spin up MUD profiles for these devices.<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Best regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ranga<br></div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 10:48 AM Eliot =
Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"over=
flow-wrap: break-word;"><div>Hi everyone,</div><div><br></div><div>Here are=
 the poll results for the Hackathon.=C2=A0 I think we need to do some work =
on reporting and interoperability testing.=C2=A0 I will also be prepared to=
 work on controller/mycontroller registration protocol (left undefined in t=
he spec).=C2=A0 The BYIOT requires that people really BYIOT.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Eliot</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><img id=3D"gmail-m_-496=
51827380351712834172281C-ACE0-4D10-934E-89B41004B5A9" src=3D"cid:16bcccd343=
05b206ef61"></div>-- <br>
Mud mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mud@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. Ranganathan <br><br><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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--00000000000034ffbe058d1813a4--


From nobody Mon Jul  8 07:03:32 2019
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From: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:33:03 +0530
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Subject: [Mud] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
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This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS
profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or
TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on
the endpoint, typically malware.


Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.

Cheers,
-Tiru


---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
Revision:       00
Title:          MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices
Document date:  2019-07-08
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          16
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls


Abstract:
   This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model DTLS
   and TLS usage.  This allows a network element to notice abnormal DTLS
   or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software
   running on the endpoint, typically malware.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--000000000000ba6116058d2be7a7
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This draft <a href=3D"https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00">https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a> discusses Manufacturer Usage Descriptio=
n (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS profile on IoT devices. This allows a fir=
ewall to notice abnormal DTLS or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicat=
or of other software running on the endpoint, typically malware.=C2=A0</p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>Comments, suggestions, and questions are mor=
e than welcome.<br><br>Cheers,<br>-Tiru<br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<br></p><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">--=
-------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</spa=
n><br>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18<br>Subject: New Version Notification f=
or draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt<br>To: Tirumaleswar Reddy &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:kondtir@gmail.com">kondtir@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Dan Wing &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:danwing@gmail.com">danwing@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br>=
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT device=
s<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-t=
ls-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to mode=
l DTLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and TLS usage.=C2=A0 This allows a network element to notice a=
bnormal DTLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0running on the endpoint, typically malware.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div></div>

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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, mud@ietf.org
To: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>
References: <156259372138.1051.8615205410511124401.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAFpG3gccU3C905xC+kB0HhfVVMr=mDzh60RvD1Va0cz3X+nnAA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
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I think this is a pretty cool idea.  You should talk about it if you can =
make the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at opsawg.

Eliot

> On 8 Jul 2019, at 16:03, tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00> discusses =
Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS profile =
on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or TLS =
usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on =
the endpoint, typically malware.
>=20
> Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.
>=20
> Cheers,
> -Tiru
>=20
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com <mailto:kondtir@gmail.com>>, =
Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com <mailto:danwing@gmail.com>>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to =
the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:           draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
> Revision:       00
> Title:          MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices
> Document date:  2019-07-08
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          16
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt =
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt>
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/>
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00>
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls>
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model =
DTLS
>    and TLS usage.  This allows a network element to notice abnormal =
DTLS
>    or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software
>    running on the endpoint, typically malware.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org =
<http://tools.ietf.org/>.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> --
> Mud mailing list
> Mud@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
think this is a pretty cool idea. &nbsp;You should talk about it if you =
can make the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at =
opsawg.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eliot<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 8 Jul 2019, at 16:03, tirumal reddy &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kondtir@gmail.com" class=3D"">kondtir@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This draft <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a> =
discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS =
profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS =
or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software =
running on the endpoint, typically malware.&nbsp;</div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Comments, suggestions, =
and questions are more than welcome.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Cheers,<br class=3D"">-Tiru<br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- =
Forwarded message ---------<br class=3D"">From: <span dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br class=3D"">Date: =
Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18<br class=3D"">Subject: New Version Notification =
for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt<br class=3D"">To: Tirumaleswar =
Reddy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kondtir@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">kondtir@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Dan Wing &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:danwing@gmail.com" class=3D"">danwing@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">
A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt<br class=3D"">
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to =
the<br class=3D"">
IETF repository.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Name:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls<br class=3D"">
Revision:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;00<br class=3D"">
Title:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT =
devices<br class=3D"">
Document date:&nbsp; 2019-07-08<br class=3D"">
Group:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">
Pages:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16<br class=3D"">
URL:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.=
txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-=
00.txt</a><br class=3D"">
Status:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/</a>=
<br class=3D"">
Htmlized:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a><br=
 class=3D"">
Htmlized:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls=
</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Abstract:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp;This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to =
model DTLS<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp;and TLS usage.&nbsp; This allows a network element to =
notice abnormal DTLS<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp;or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other =
software<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp;running on the endpoint, typically malware.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br class=3D"">
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The IETF Secretariat<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div></div>
-- <br class=3D"">Mud mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Mud@ietf.org" class=3D"">Mud@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Jul  8 15:12:10 2019
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Subject: [Mud] iot-mud-dns operational considerations
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I threw this together while waiting for the DT to process my other
submissions.  (It got rather slow...)
It's very drafty!

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-opsawg-mud-iot-dns-considerations/

I'll just past the intro, which is all there really is!
I'll probably push this at ADD effort, after the BOF is better understood.


1.  Introduction

   [RFC8520] provides a standardized way to describe how a specific
   purpose device makes use of Internet resources.  Access Control Lists
   (ACLs) can be defined in an RFC8520 Manufacturer Usage Description
   (MUD) file that permit a device to access Internet resources by DNS
   name.

   Use of a DNS name rather than IP address in the ACL has many
   advantages: not only does the layer of indirection permit the mapping
   of name to IP address to be changed over time, it also generalizes
   automatically to IPv4 and IPv6 addresses, as well as permitting
   loading balancing of traffic by many different common ways, including
   geography.

   At the MUD policy enforcement point - the firewall - there is a
   problem.  The firewall has only access to the layer-3 headers of the
   packet.  This includes the source and destination IP address, and if
   not encrypted by IPsec, the destination UDP or TCP port number
   present in the transport header.  The DNS name is not present!

   In order to implement this, there must be a mapping between the names
   in the ACLs and layer-3 IP addresses.  The first section of this
   document details a few strategies that are used.

   The second section of this document details how common manufacturer
   anti-patterns get in the way this mapping.

   The third section of this document details how current trends in DNS
   resolution such as public DNS servers, DNS over TLS (DoT), and DNS
   over HTTPS (DoH) cause problems for the strategies employed.  Poor
   interactions with content-distribution networks is a frequent
   pathology that results.

   The fourth section of this document makes a series of recommendations
   ("best current practices") for manufacturers on how to use DNS, and
   IP addresses with specific purpose IoT devices.

   The Privacy Considerations section concerns itself with issues that
   DNS-over-TLS and DNS-over-HTTPS are frequently used to deal with.
   The question is how these concerns apply to IoT devices located
   within a residence or enterprise is dealt with.

   The Security Considerations section covers some of the negative
   outcomes should MUD/firewall managers and IoT manufacturers choose
   not to cooperate.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Mon Jul  8 20:00:19 2019
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From: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
To: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
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From: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:23:00 +0530
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Thanks Eliot, glad to present the draft.

-Tiru

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 20:02, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> I think this is a pretty cool idea.  You should talk about it if you can
> make the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at opsawg.
>
> Eliot
>
> On 8 Jul 2019, at 16:03, tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
> discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS
> profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or
> TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on
> the endpoint, typically malware.
>
> Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.
>
> Cheers,
> -Tiru
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
> Revision:       00
> Title:          MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices
> Document date:  2019-07-08
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          16
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model DTLS
>    and TLS usage.  This allows a network element to notice abnormal DTLS
>    or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software
>    running on the endpoint, typically malware.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> --
> Mud mailing list
> Mud@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud
>
>
>

--0000000000006afc09058d3c87fc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks Eliot, glad to present the draft.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>-Tiru</div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 20:02, Eliot Lear &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>I thi=
nk this is a pretty cool idea.=C2=A0 You should talk about it if you can ma=
ke the side meeting, or otherwise if you can get time at opsawg.<div><br></=
div><div>Eliot<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 8 Jul 2019, at=
 16:03, tirumal reddy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kondtir@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">kondtir@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"m_-776573153154050=
2445gmail-m_-2323667090054278132Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">This draft <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-red=
dy-opswg-mud-tls-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-re=
ddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a> discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) ext=
ension to model (D)TLS profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to no=
tice abnormal DTLS or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other=
 software running on the endpoint, typically malware.=C2=A0</div><div style=
=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=
<br>Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.<br><br>Chee=
rs,<br>-Tiru<br></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>F=
rom: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, 8 Jul =
2019 at 19:18<br>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mu=
d-tls-00.txt<br>To: Tirumaleswar Reddy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kondtir@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">kondtir@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Dan Wing &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:danwing@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">danwing@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br></d=
iv><br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT device=
s<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-t=
ls-00.txt</a><br>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to mode=
l DTLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and TLS usage.=C2=A0 This allows a network element to notice a=
bnormal DTLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0running on the endpoint, typically malware.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div></div>
-- <br>Mud mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">Mud@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud</a><br></div><=
/blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

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From: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:38:59 +0530
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To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
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--0000000000008110da058d3cc006
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi Qin,

Please see inline

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 08:30, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:

> Interesting work, three questions:
>
> 1.       Can the IoT device (D)TLS profile be disclosed to malicious agen=
t or IoT device? If not, how do you prevent these sensitive information lea=
king?
>
> It is not sensitive information, on-path network devices can inspect or
monitor the TLS handshake without acting as a TLS proxy. In TLS
1.3, ClientHello message is not encrypted and few parameters in the
ServerHello message are still visible (such as the chosen cipher).


> 2.       Do you frequently update DTLS profile disclosed to IoT device to=
 prevent malicious agent from snooping?
>
> No, Malware frequently uses its own libraries (SSL config) for its
activities, and malware developers will have to develop malicious agents
per IoT device type, manufacturer and model (which will be several
thousands and practically not possible).

> 3.       How does enterprise firewal use DTLS profile to detect malicious=
 flow or legitimate flow?
>
> If (D)TLS session from the IoT device violates MUD (D)TLS profile,
firewall detects the flow is malicious and blocks it. As you may know,
Enterprise firewalls inspect TLS handshake and are capable of acting as a
(D)TLS proxy (please see
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-camwinget-tls-use-cases-05).

Cheers,
-Tiru

-Qin
>
> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] *=
=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *tirumal reddy
> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5=
 22:03
> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* opsawg@ietf.org; mud@ietf.org
> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for
> draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
>
>
>
> This draft https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
> discusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS
> profile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice abnormal DTLS or
> TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other software running on
> the endpoint, typically malware.
>
>
> Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.
>
> Cheers,
> -Tiru
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>, Dan Wing <danwing@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
> Revision:       00
> Title:          MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT devices
> Document date:  2019-07-08
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          16
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls
>
>
> Abstract:
>    This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to model DTLS
>    and TLS usage.  This allows a network element to notice abnormal DTLS
>    or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software
>    running on the endpoint, typically malware.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>

--0000000000008110da058d3cc006
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Qin,</div><div><br></div><div>Please see inline</d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 08:30, Qin Wu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bill.wu@huawei.com">=
bill.wu@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5724863596276739817WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Interesting work, three que=
stions:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>1.<sp=
an style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Can the I=
oT device (D)TLS profile be disclosed to malicious agent or IoT device? If =
not, how do you prevent these sensitive information leaking?</span></pre></=
div></div></blockquote><div>It is not sensitive information, on-path networ=
k devices can inspect or monitor the TLS handshake without acting as a TLS =
proxy. In TLS 1.3,=C2=A0ClientHello message is not encrypted and few parame=
ters in the ServerHello message are still visible (such as the chosen ciphe=
r).</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div lang=3D"ZH-CN"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5724863596276739817WordSection1"=
><pre style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>2.<sp=
an style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Do you fr=
equently update DTLS profile disclosed to IoT device to prevent malicious a=
gent from snooping?</span></pre></div></div></blockquote><div>No, Malware f=
requently uses its own libraries (SSL config) for its activities, and malwa=
re developers will have to develop malicious agents per IoT device type, ma=
nufacturer and model (which will be several thousands and practically not p=
ossible).=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 lang=3D"ZH-CN"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5724863596276739817WordSection1"><pre=
 style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/pre>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:18pt"><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span>3.<sp=
an style=3D"font:7pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span></span></span><u></u><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font=
-size:10.5pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">How does =
enterprise firewal use DTLS profile to detect malicious flow or legitimate =
flow? </span></pre></div></div></blockquote><div>If (D)TLS session from the=
 IoT device violates MUD (D)TLS profile, firewall detects the flow is malic=
ious and blocks it. As you may know, Enterprise firewalls inspect TLS hands=
hake and are capable of acting as a (D)TLS proxy (please see=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-camwinget-tls-use-cases-05">https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-camwinget-tls-use-cases-05</a>).=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>-Tiru</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN"><div class=3D"gmail-m_=
5724863596276739817WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">-Qin<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=
=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span=
 lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif"> OPSAWG [=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">opsawg-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 </span>
</b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=
=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">tirumal reddy<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif">=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4<span lang=
=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91,sans-serif"> 2019</span><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=
=91,sans-serif">=E5=B9=B4<span lang=3D"EN-US">7</span>=E6=9C=88<span lang=
=3D"EN-US">8</span>=E6=97=A5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 22:03<br>
</span><b>=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US"> <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">opsaw=
g@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mud@ietf.=
org</a><br>
</span><b>=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> [OPSAWG] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tl=
s-00.txt<u></u><u></u></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif">This draft
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a> di=
scusses Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) extension to model (D)TLS prof=
ile on IoT devices. This allows a firewall to notice
 abnormal DTLS or TLS usage, which has been a strong indicator of other sof=
tware running on the endpoint, typically malware.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
Comments, suggestions, and questions are more than welcome.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
-Tiru<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">---------- Forwarded message --=
-------<br>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 19:18<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt<br>
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kondtir@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">kondtir@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Dan Wing &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danwing@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">danwing@gmail.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><b=
r>
<br>
<br>
A new version of I-D, draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Tirumaleswar Reddy and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls<br>
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000<br>
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUD (D)TLS profiles for IoT device=
s<br>
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-07-08<br>
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission<br>
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 16<br>
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00.txt</a><b=
r>
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls/</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls-00</a><br>
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/html/draft-reddy-opswg-mud-tls</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This memo extends Manufacturer Usage Description (MUD) to mode=
l DTLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and TLS usage.=C2=A0 This allows a network element to notice a=
bnormal DTLS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or TLS usage which has been strong indicator of other software=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0running on the endpoint, typically malware.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000008110da058d3cc006--


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Subject: [Mud] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.
I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD
profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.

Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined
(I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word)
that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
learn what went on.

This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterprise
NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I assume, involved
forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we have APIs, we can inform
device as well.

Is this on anyone's radar?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.  Can you show a flow =
that will work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?

Eliot

> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
> Signed PGP part
>=20
> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.
> I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD
> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
>=20
> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined
> (I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word)
> that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device =
to
> learn what went on.
>=20
> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most =
enterprise
> NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I assume, =
involved
> forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we have APIs, we can =
inform
> device as well.
>=20
> Is this on anyone's radar?
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
    > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.  Can you show a flow=
 that will
    > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?

Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated
"VLAN".  I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address
VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.  It's really just a layer-2 ACL.

{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets, nor
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN,
because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged
switches might be on the port anyway.
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}

Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acces=
s/)
would go into a captive portal system.

Such a system would, according to
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)

Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT?

Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a
timer goes off.  (%)

This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi=
ch
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can deliver
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.


    >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> Signed PGP part
    >>
    >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.  I
    >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD
    >> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
    >>
    >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined (I
    >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that
    >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
    >> learn what went on.
    >>
    >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most
    >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I
    >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we ha=
ve
    >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
    >>
    >> Is this on anyone's radar?
    >>
    >> --
    >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
    >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>


=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Subject: [Mud] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal (fwd) Michael Richardson: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Again, a WG whose ML is not the WG name, and there is no alias. ARGH.
Here are some emails that didn't get to captive-portals@ietf.org.
Sorry for the duplication for others.


--==-=-=
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=2966
Content-Description: forwarded message

From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: "opsawg\@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud\@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>,
    capport@ietf.org
Subject: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
In-Reply-To: <CAFpG3gc4ijy+xH7O_9EzpzwcROu3XcTA4xpSAH9P+oyhWQzMyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49CD8C1@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAFpG3gc4ijy+xH7O_9EzpzwcROu3XcTA4xpSAH9P+oyhWQzMyg@mail.gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:41:58 -0400
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.
I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD
profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.

Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined
(I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word)
that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
learn what went on.

This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterprise
NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I assume, involved
forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we have APIs, we can inform
device as well.

Is this on anyone's radar?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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--==-=-=
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=2978
Content-Description: forwarded message

From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
cc: "opsawg\@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud\@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>,
    capport@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
In-Reply-To: <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49CD8C1@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAFpG3gc4ijy+xH7O_9EzpzwcROu3XcTA4xpSAH9P+oyhWQzMyg@mail.gmail.com> <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com>
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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:38:58 -0400
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
    > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.  Can you show a flow=
 that will
    > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?

Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated
"VLAN".  I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address
VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.  It's really just a layer-2 ACL.

{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets, nor
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN,
because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged
switches might be on the port anyway.
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}

Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acces=
s/)
would go into a captive portal system.

Such a system would, according to
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)

Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT?

Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a
timer goes off.  (%)

This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi=
ch
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can deliver
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.


    >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> Signed PGP part
    >>
    >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.  I
    >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD
    >> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
    >>
    >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined (I
    >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that
    >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
    >> learn what went on.
    >>
    >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most
    >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I
    >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we ha=
ve
    >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
    >>
    >> Is this on anyone's radar?
    >>
    >> --
    >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
    >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>


=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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It=E2=80=99s the following part that I=E2=80=99m thinking about:

> On 9 Jul 2019, at 20:38, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
> Such a system would, according to
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/
> receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
> (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
> URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)
>=20
> Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
> appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT?
>=20
> Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
> described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which =
point, it
> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot =
if a
> timer goes off.  (%)
>=20


You are suggesting that a device self-remediate.  Some devices may be =
able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts.  Were I a hacker, I =
would have the device pretend to do just that.  And so this ties =
somewhat to RATS.  I think a MUD extension might be able to help in as =
much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D =
recommendation.

Eliot

> This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end =
point, which
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can =
deliver
> via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.
>=20
>=20
>>> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Signed PGP part
>>>=20
>>> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.  =
I
>>> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD
>>> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
>>>=20
>>> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined =
(I
>>> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) that
>>> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
>>> learn what went on.
>>>=20
>>> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most
>>> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I
>>> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we =
have
>>> APIs, we can inform device as well.
>>>=20
>>> Is this on anyone's radar?
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>>> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:13:06 -0400
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>, capport@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mud/TGj4XMNFcHiryeakm9KlvzF3yBY>
Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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The current draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
Assumes that the "quarantined device" can access a subset of the ACE's
allowed to the "unquarantined" device.
However, I can think of a scenario where this does not have to be the case.
I'd propose to generalize this.

i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for normal operation and one for
quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a subset of
regular access).

Use case:

Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH access (port 22 is
not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some external agent (or
human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue.  The fix could involve
copying new firmware.

Does this make sense?

Another thing that is missing currently is how to "clear" the quarantine
state at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we want
to make that portable.

Regards,

Ranga


On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>     > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.  Can you show a fl=
ow that
> will
>     > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?
>
> Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated
> "VLAN".  I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address
> VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.  It's really just a layer-2 ACL.
>
> {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets,
> nor
> can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN,
> because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged
> switches might be on the port anyway.
> One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}
>
> Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
> all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acc=
ess/
> )
> would go into a captive portal system.
>
> Such a system would, according to
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/
> receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
> (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
> URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)
>
> Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
> appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT?
>
> Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
> described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, =
it
> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a
> timer goes off.  (%)
>
> This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point,
> which
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can
> deliver
> via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.
>
>
>     >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca=
>
>     >> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Signed PGP part
>     >>
>     >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.
> I
>     >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's M=
UD
>     >> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
>     >>
>     >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined
> (I
>     >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) tha=
t
>     >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
>     >> learn what went on.
>     >>
>     >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most
>     >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I
>     >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we
> have
>     >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
>     >>
>     >> Is this on anyone's radar?
>     >>
>     >> --
>     >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software
> Works
>     >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
> --
> Mud mailing list
> Mud@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud
>


--=20
M. Ranganathan

--0000000000007f53ed058d4532ca
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The current draft <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/</a></div><div>Assumes that the &quot;quar=
antined device&quot; can access a subset of the ACE&#39;s allowed to the &q=
uot;unquarantined&quot; device.</div><div>However, I can think of a scenari=
o where this does not have to be the case. I&#39;d propose to generalize th=
is.</div><div><br></div><div>i.e. There are two sets of ACL&#39;s - one for=
 normal operation and one for quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access i=
s not necessarily a subset of regular access).<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>Use case:</div><div><br></div><div>Under normal circumstances, the device =
does not need SSH access (port 22 is not open). However, if the device is m=
isbehaving some external agent (or human maybe) logs in and investigates th=
e issue.=C2=A0 The fix could involve copying new firmware.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Does this=C2=A0make sense?</div><div><br></div><div>Another thing =
that is missing currently is how to &quot;clear&quot; the quarantine state =
at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we want to ma=
ke that portable.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div=
><div>Ranga<br></div><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richar=
dson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+i=
etf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><br>
Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.=C2=A0 C=
an you show a flow that will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?<=
br>
<br>
Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated<b=
r>
&quot;VLAN&quot;.=C2=A0 I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it&#39;=
s a &quot;MAC-address<br>
VLAN&quot;, not an 802.1Q thing.=C2=A0 It&#39;s really just a layer-2 ACL.<=
br>
<br>
{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it&#39;s packets=
, nor<br>
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can&#39;t do a &quot;port-based&q=
uot; VLAN,<br>
because wifi has no ports, and we don&#39;t really know how many unmanaged<=
br>
switches might be on the port anyway.<br>
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}<br>
<br>
Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,<br>
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quaran=
tined-access/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-access/</a>)<br>
would go into a captive portal system.<br>
<br>
Such a system would, according to<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture=
/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-ietf-capport-architecture/</a><br>
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.<br>
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a<br>
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)<br>
<br>
Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the<br>
appropriate &quot;you might be captive&quot; ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIG=
HT?<br>
<br>
Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API<br>
described at: <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cappor=
t-api/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-capport-api/</a><br>
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it=
<br>
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a<b=
r>
timer goes off.=C2=A0 (%)<br>
<br>
This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi=
ch<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/</a> can deliver<br>
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman=
.ca</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Signed PGP part<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking =
about CAPPORT.=C2=A0 I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; have been working on what to do when an IoT device v=
iolates it&#39;s MUD<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around th=
is.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device =
is quarantined (I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; really think it should be &quot;quaranteed&quot;, bu=
t that&#39;s not a word) that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; the capport controls and APIs should be available to=
 the device to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; learn what went on.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; This is not new, I think that this as been the appro=
ach of most<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; enterprise NEA systems upon encountering &quot;infec=
tion&quot;.=C2=A0 This has, I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human=
.=C2=A0 But, if we have<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; APIs, we can inform device as well.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Is this on anyone&#39;s radar?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; --<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@=
sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman So=
ftware Works<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mud mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mud@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"m=
_1471223997451039206gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. =
Ranganathan <br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div>

--0000000000007f53ed058d4532ca--


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From: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:16:39 -0400
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:13 PM M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:

> The current draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api=
/
>


Wrong reference, I meant


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acces=
s/

(sorry for extra email load).

Assumes that the "quarantined device" can access a subset of the ACE's
> allowed to the "unquarantined" device.
> However, I can think of a scenario where this does not have to be the
> case. I'd propose to generalize this.
>
> i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for normal operation and one for
> quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a subset o=
f
> regular access).
>
> Use case:
>
> Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH access (port 22
> is not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some external agent (=
or
> human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue.  The fix could involve
> copying new firmware.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> Another thing that is missing currently is how to "clear" the quarantine
> state at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we wa=
nt
> to make that portable.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ranga
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>>     > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.  Can you show a f=
low that
>> will
>>     > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?
>>
>> Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolate=
d
>> "VLAN".  I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address
>> VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.  It's really just a layer-2 ACL.
>>
>> {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets,
>> nor
>> can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN,
>> because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged
>> switches might be on the port anyway.
>> One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}
>>
>> Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
>> all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-ac=
cess/
>> )
>> would go into a captive portal system.
>>
>> Such a system would, according to
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/
>> receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
>> (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
>> URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)
>>
>> Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
>> appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT?
>>
>> Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
>> described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
>> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point,
>> it
>> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if =
a
>> timer goes off.  (%)
>>
>> This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point,
>> which
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can
>> deliver
>> via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.
>>
>>
>>     >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.c=
a
>> >
>>     >> wrote:
>>     >>
>>     >> Signed PGP part
>>     >>
>>     >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about
>> CAPPORT.  I
>>     >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's
>> MUD
>>     >> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
>>     >>
>>     >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantine=
d
>> (I
>>     >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) th=
at
>>     >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device t=
o
>>     >> learn what went on.
>>     >>
>>     >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most
>>     >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, =
I
>>     >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we
>> have
>>     >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
>>     >>
>>     >> Is this on anyone's radar?
>>     >>
>>     >> --
>>     >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software
>> Works
>>     >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mud mailing list
>> Mud@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud
>>
>
>
> --
> M. Ranganathan
>
>

--=20
M. Ranganathan

--00000000000026dcba058d453f0e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:13 PM M. Ranganathan &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mranga@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mranga@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div>The current draft <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-capport-api/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-ietf-capport-api/</a></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div><div>Wrong reference, I meant <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-q=
uarantined-access/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-m=
ud-quarantined-access/</a></div><div><br></div><div>(sorry for extra email =
load).<br></div><div> <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Assumes that the &quot;quarantined device&quot=
; can access a subset of the ACE&#39;s allowed to the &quot;unquarantined&q=
uot; device.</div><div>However, I can think of a scenario where this does n=
ot have to be the case. I&#39;d propose to generalize this.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>i.e. There are two sets of ACL&#39;s - one for normal operation a=
nd one for quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a=
 subset of regular access).<br></div><div><br></div><div>Use case:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH a=
ccess (port 22 is not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some ext=
ernal agent (or human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue.=C2=A0 The =
fix could involve copying new firmware.</div><div><br></div><div>Does this=
=C2=A0make sense?</div><div><br></div><div>Another thing that is missing cu=
rrently is how to &quot;clear&quot; the quarantine state at the enforcement=
 point. This would need an API defintion of we want to make that portable.<=
br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ranga<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:39 PM Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<br>
Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.=C2=A0 C=
an you show a flow that will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?<=
br>
<br>
Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated<b=
r>
&quot;VLAN&quot;.=C2=A0 I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it&#39;=
s a &quot;MAC-address<br>
VLAN&quot;, not an 802.1Q thing.=C2=A0 It&#39;s really just a layer-2 ACL.<=
br>
<br>
{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it&#39;s packets=
, nor<br>
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can&#39;t do a &quot;port-based&q=
uot; VLAN,<br>
because wifi has no ports, and we don&#39;t really know how many unmanaged<=
br>
switches might be on the port anyway.<br>
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}<br>
<br>
Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,<br>
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quaran=
tined-access/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-access/</a>)<br>
would go into a captive portal system.<br>
<br>
Such a system would, according to<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture=
/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-ietf-capport-architecture/</a><br>
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.<br>
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a<br>
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)<br>
<br>
Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the<br>
appropriate &quot;you might be captive&quot; ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIG=
HT?<br>
<br>
Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API<br>
described at: <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cappor=
t-api/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-capport-api/</a><br>
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it=
<br>
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a<b=
r>
timer goes off.=C2=A0 (%)<br>
<br>
This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi=
ch<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/</a> can deliver<br>
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman=
.ca</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Signed PGP part<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking =
about CAPPORT.=C2=A0 I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; have been working on what to do when an IoT device v=
iolates it&#39;s MUD<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around th=
is.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device =
is quarantined (I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; really think it should be &quot;quaranteed&quot;, bu=
t that&#39;s not a word) that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; the capport controls and APIs should be available to=
 the device to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; learn what went on.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; This is not new, I think that this as been the appro=
ach of most<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; enterprise NEA systems upon encountering &quot;infec=
tion&quot;.=C2=A0 This has, I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human=
.=C2=A0 But, if we have<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; APIs, we can inform device as well.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Is this on anyone&#39;s radar?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; --<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@=
sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman So=
ftware Works<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Mud mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Mud@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"m=
_-7723599627848756393gmail-m_2018162547828010057m_1471223997451039206gmail_=
signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. Ranganathan <br><br></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"m=
_-7723599627848756393gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M.=
 Ranganathan <br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div>

--00000000000026dcba058d453f0e--


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From: "Montgomery, Douglas (Fed)" <dougm@nist.gov>
To: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "capport@ietf.org" <capport@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:33:26 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mud/h1rOb7GRqi3UndWe9Ll04QBq0N0>
Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Subject: Re: [Mud] Side meeting at the IETF Montreal - call for agenda items
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Good conversation to have in Montreal.

> On 30 Jun 2019, at 18:49, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
> Signed PGP part
>=20
> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>> A number of people have contacted me about meeting in Montreal, and
>> that they wouldn=E2=80=99t be available after Tuesday.  Conveniently, =
Monday
>> morning is reserved for side meetings.  I propose we take advantage =
of
>> this from 9:00 - 10:30 (yes, this bleeds into the 1st session).
>=20
> It bleeds into teep, and I'm curious about the loops BOF, so I =
probably take
> off at the appointed time.
>=20
>> I=E2=80=99ve combined MUD and IoT Onboarding, just to save time, as =
there is
>> substantial community overlap.  That=E2=80=99s because the spaces are =
clearly
>> related, one being authentication of the device the other being =
network
>> authorization.
>=20
> Agreed.
>=20
>> This, then, is a call for agenda items.  I have a few of my own, but
>> would prefer to hear from others first.  Also, are you ok with the
>> Monday morning time slot and keeping these activities together?
>=20
>> Ps: reminder: side meetings are not =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D =
anything.  Just a
>> gathering of people with a common interest.  However, the meeting =
will
>> run under the IPR rules of the IETF, regardless.  All are invited.
>=20
> So, I'm not sure if you are asking for BRSKI items, or IoT onboarding =
items in general.
>=20
> 1) Under BRSKI for non-ANIMA ACP uses, there is the question about =
open/closed
>   registrars, and operational considerations of total sales channel =
integration
>   (MASA knows the customers), vs retail integration (no knowledge of
>   customers).  There are probably areas of grey in between that might =
be
>   worth enumerating.
>=20
> 2) There is a similar question for MUD, which is how does the MUD =
controller
>   arrive at trust criteria for the signatures.  This is the
>   enterprise/customer side of the above story: do you know who you are
>   buying from?
>   This relates to the discussion we have had about controllers: I =
think if
>   we could pin down the quality of the signatures, we could say more.
>=20
> 3) MUD Operational considerations for devices that can grow "skills"
>=20
> Not really a topic exactly: but how do we get towards the point where =
we can test
> MUD/BRSKI integration.
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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--=-=-=
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Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
    > It=E2=80=99s the following part that I=E2=80=99m thinking about:


...

    >> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which po=
int, it
    >> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot=
 if a
    >> timer goes off.  (%)

    > You are suggesting that a device self-remediate.  Some devices may be
    > able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts.  Were I a hacker, I
    > would have the device pretend to do just that.  And so this ties
    > somewhat to RATS.  I think a MUD extension might be able to help in as
    > much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D recommendat=
ion.

Yes, so a full attack on the IoT device would do what you describe.
A partial attack might miss messing this.  A reboot might clear out the
malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot firmware) that
would permit new firmware to be loaded.

Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine would require either
attestation or human intervention.  But, if the device now has good firmwar=
e,
it would be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal.

=2D-
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect =
  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [


=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
    > would an ICMP "administratively prohibited" not be a sufficient
    > signal? Sure, things can be made much more complex, but I doubt that
    > devices will try to actively investigate why they can't communicate

Probably good enough.  Some wanted a more specific signal.

It's intended to just be a signal to go ask the captive portal API
if the device is captive.

    > (and implement additional protocols for this) if all they can do at
    > the end is to change the color of an led or simply shut-off (i.e.,
    > stop assuming its a temporary network issue and reduce/stop probing
    > effort).

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Subject: [Mud] different modes for MUD files
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{starting a new thread with a new subject line}

M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:
    > The current draft https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
    > Assumes that the "quarantined device" can access a subset of the ACE's
    > allowed to the "unquarantined" device.
    > However, I can think of a scenario where this does not have to be the case.
    > I'd propose to generalize this.

    > i.e. There are two sets of ACL's - one for normal operation and one for
    > quarantined access. (i.e. quarantine access is not necessarily a subset of
    > regular access).

I can agree with the idea.

    > Use case:

    > Under normal circumstances, the device does not need SSH access (port 22 is
    > not open). However, if the device is misbehaving some external agent (or
    > human maybe) logs in and investigates the issue.  The fix could involve
    > copying new firmware.

    > Does this make sense?

Yes, but I'd like to term this the "debug" or "diagnostic" access.
I suggest that this is easily done by switching MUD files in/out.
Rather than try to create profiles within A mud file, I suggest multiple mud
files.
What we should do is to create references to alternate profiles that could be used.

    > Another thing that is missing currently is how to "clear" the quarantine
    > state at the enforcement point. This would need an API defintion of we want
    > to make that portable.

Yes, that does require an API.  The SHG project has developed one, but the
document is stale.  It can't be the device that invokes the API, it must be
be the operator.


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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Montgomery, Douglas (Fed) <dougm@nist.gov> wrote:
    > Most of the devices I think of as actual IoT devices have no direct
    > UI/shell.  Your only interaction with them after initial
    > =E2=80=9Cinstall/configure=E2=80=9D is through their cloud web servic=
e interface.

That's true for many devices, but not all.
Even light bulbs have output interfaces :-)

    > Having said that I think your model is fine.

Good.

    > I would suggest detecting device reboot would be one signal to clear
    > quarantine state.  Since MUD =E2=80=9Cmisbehavior=E2=80=9D is mostly =
instantaneously
    > detectable (1 packet), I am not that concerned that the device might
    > reboot for others reasons and still be infected.

Device reboot probably needs an attestation to be believed.

    > One might keep a counter and a time stamp of quarantine clears and if
    > you a device had N MUD violations after quarantine clears in X time,
    > lock it down in quarantine or completely take it off line.

Reasonable, but in the space of quality of implementation, I think.

=2D-
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{my appologies for still getting captive-portal vs captive-portals@ wrong}

John Romkey <romkey@romkey.com> wrote:
    >> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>>> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which =
point, it
    >>>> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just rebo=
ot if a
    >>>> timer goes off.  (%)
    >>
    >>> You are suggesting that a device self-remediate.  Some devices may =
be
    >>> able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts.  Were I a hacker,=
 I
    >>> would have the device pretend to do just that.  And so this ties
    >>> somewhat to RATS.  I think a MUD extension might be able to help in=
 as
    >>> much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D recommend=
ation.
    >>
    >> Yes, so a full attack on the IoT device would do what you describe.
    >> A partial attack might miss messing this.  A reboot might clear out =
the
    >> malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot firmware=
) that
    >> would permit new firmware to be loaded.
    >>
    >> Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine would require either
    >> attestation or human intervention.  But, if the device now has good =
firmware,
    >> it would be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal.

    > I believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device
    > that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It
    > shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D s=
ignal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even
    > try to talk to it.

That's a reasonable view.
The question is: what next?
                   draft-richardson-shg-un-quarantine-00
tries to discuss this.

    > Let the firewall which is implementing MUD notify the user about the
    > problem. Let the device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the us=
er that
    > the device is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the
    > firewall might have a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud servic=
e, but I
    > wouldn=E2=80=99t hamstring the initial version of MUD with an attempt=
 to do
    > that.

I fully expect any notifications out should be done by the firewall.
There are two issues I'm trying to address:
  1) there will be false positives from use of MUD.  Manufacturers will
     screw up, DNS mappings will be updated out of sync with firmware, etc.
     If it is too painful to diagnose and fix, then MUD will get disabled by
     operators (ISPs, who will get the call), or by end users.

  2) not every user of a device will get the notifications.
     So devices with displays (think: thermostats, refridgerators, SIP phon=
es,
     TV sets, etc.) whether they have real malware on them, or false
     positives should be able to indicate that they are offline.
     This matters a lot if you are trying to dial 911 on a broken phone,
     and you aren't the person with the app that gets the notifications
     from the firewall.

Putting them behind the captive-portal API when quarantined lets them get
exactly the kind of information they want.  It also helps them when they
turned on where there really is a captive-portal.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, captive-portal@ietf.org, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Hi John,

>=20
> I believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device =
that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D =
signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even try to talk to it.
>=20

It=E2=80=99s important to tease out the device model here a bit.  If the =
device is a single processor unit, I can only but agree with you.  =
However, if there is a TPM/TEE present, things get a bit grayer.  It is =
possible that even a device with a TEE could have been compromised.  =
This could have happened through a classic bug in some unprotected code, =
like a web server.  If code within the TEE is able to detect that it has =
been messed with, then it is possible it might want to remediate.  It is =
then up to the process in the TEE to communicate to some sort of remote =
attestation service to demonstrate that the system is in a nominal =
state, and up to the RATS server to believe that system or not.

But I must say that this would not my first use of MUD ;-)

Eliot


> Let the firewall which is implementing MUD notify the user about the =
problem. Let the device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the user =
that the device is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the =
firewall might have a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, =
but I wouldn=E2=80=99t hamstring the initial version of MUD with an =
attempt to do that.
> 	- john romkey
> 	https;//romkey.com <http://romkey.com/>
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_B69F180E-96CB-48D1-85C9-5922A856905C
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
John,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">I believe strongly that =
the only safe thing you can do with a device that=E2=80=99s been in any =
way compromised is completely isolate it.It shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to =
send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t =
even try to talk to it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>It=E2=80=
=99s important to tease out the device model here a bit. &nbsp;If the =
device is a single processor unit, I can only but agree with you. =
&nbsp;However, if there is a TPM/TEE present, things get a bit grayer. =
&nbsp;It is possible that even a device with a TEE could have been =
compromised. &nbsp;This could have happened through a classic bug in =
some unprotected code, like a web server. &nbsp;If code within the TEE =
is able to detect that it has been messed with, then it is possible it =
might want to remediate. &nbsp;It is then up to the process in the TEE =
to communicate to some sort of remote attestation service to demonstrate =
that the system is in a nominal state, and up to the RATS server to =
believe that system or not.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>But I =
must say that this would not my first use of MUD ;-)</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Eliot</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Let the firewall which is =
implementing MUD notify the user about the problem. Let the device=E2=80=99=
s app or cloud services notify the user that the device is offline. =
Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the firewall might have a way to =
notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, but I wouldn=E2=80=99t =
hamstring the initial version of MUD with an attempt to do =
that.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- john romkey</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>https;//<a href=3D"http://romkey.com/" =
class=3D"">romkey.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_B69F180E-96CB-48D1-85C9-5922A856905C--

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>, <capport@ietf.org>
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References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49CD8C1@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAFpG3gc4ijy+xH7O_9EzpzwcROu3XcTA4xpSAH9P+oyhWQzMyg@mail.gmail.com> <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Michael,

would an ICMP "administratively prohibited" not be a sufficient
signal? Sure, things can be made much more complex, but I doubt that
devices will try to actively investigate why they can't communicate
(and implement additional protocols for this) if all they can do at
the end is to change the color of an led or simply shut-off (i.e.,
stop assuming its a temporary network issue and reduce/stop probing
effort).

/js

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 02:38:58PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>     > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.  Can you show a =
flow that will
>     > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?
>=20
> Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolat=
ed
> "VLAN".  I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-addres=
s
> VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.  It's really just a layer-2 ACL.
>=20
> {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets=
, nor
> can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN,
> because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged
> switches might be on the port anyway.
> One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}
>=20
> Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
> all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-a=
ccess/)
> would go into a captive portal system.
>=20
> Such a system would, according to
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/
> receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
> (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
> URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)
>=20
> Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
> appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT?
>=20
> Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
> described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point=
, it
> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if=
 a
> timer goes off.  (%)
>=20
> This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point,=
 which
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can del=
iver
> via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.
>=20
>=20
>     >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.=
ca>
>     >> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Signed PGP part
>     >>
>     >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPOR=
T.  I
>     >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's=
 MUD
>     >> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
>     >>
>     >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantin=
ed (I
>     >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) t=
hat
>     >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device =
to
>     >> learn what went on.
>     >>
>     >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most
>     >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has,=
 I
>     >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if w=
e have
>     >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
>     >>
>     >> Is this on anyone's radar?
>     >>
>     >> --
>     >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software W=
orks
>     >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>=20
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20
>=20



> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg


--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: John Romkey <romkey@romkey.com>
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Cc: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, captive-portal@ietf.org, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
References: <B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAA49CD8C1@nkgeml513-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAFpG3gc4ijy+xH7O_9EzpzwcROu3XcTA4xpSAH9P+oyhWQzMyg@mail.gmail.com> <4486.1562683318@localhost> <7534958E-E1A6-470D-B4BB-6B88CD27B54C@cisco.com> <27334.1562697538@localhost> <EE6AC0E8-0596-4B58-AA38-003078BF4B23@cisco.com> <18178.1562719763@localhost>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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> On Jul 9, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
>>> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which =
point, it
>>> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot =
if a
>>> timer goes off.  (%)
>=20
>> You are suggesting that a device self-remediate.  Some devices may be
>> able to eventually do that, but I have my doubts.  Were I a hacker, I
>> would have the device pretend to do just that.  And so this ties
>> somewhat to RATS.  I think a MUD extension might be able to help in =
as
>> much as one could imagine a =E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D =
recommendation.
>=20
> Yes, so a full attack on the IoT device would do what you describe.
> A partial attack might miss messing this.  A reboot might clear out =
the
> malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot firmware) =
that
> would permit new firmware to be loaded.
>=20
> Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine would require either
> attestation or human intervention.  But, if the device now has good =
firmware,
> it would be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal.

I believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device =
that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D =
signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even try to talk to it.

Let the firewall which is implementing MUD notify the user about the =
problem. Let the device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the user =
that the device is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the =
firewall might have a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, =
but I wouldn=E2=80=99t hamstring the initial version of MUD with an =
attempt to do that.
	- john romkey
	https;//romkey.com <http://romkey.com/>


--Apple-Mail=_EABAD983-EB6E-4F93-A1D3-3C6FB9586844
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jul 9, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At =
which point, it<br class=3D"">can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware =
upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a<br class=3D"">timer goes off. =
&nbsp;(%)<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">You are suggesting that =
a device self-remediate. &nbsp;Some devices may be<br class=3D"">able to =
eventually do that, but I have my doubts. &nbsp;Were I a hacker, I<br =
class=3D"">would have the device pretend to do just that. &nbsp;And so =
this ties<br class=3D"">somewhat to RATS. &nbsp;I think a MUD extension =
might be able to help in as<br class=3D"">much as one could imagine a =
=E2=80=9Cremediation=E2=80=9D recommendation.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Yes, so a full attack on the IoT =
device would do what you describe.<br class=3D"">A partial attack might =
miss messing this. &nbsp;A reboot might clear out the<br =
class=3D"">malware, or might mitigate it enough (such as going to boot =
firmware) that<br class=3D"">would permit new firmware to be loaded.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes, getting completely out of the quarantine =
would require either<br class=3D"">attestation or human intervention. =
&nbsp;But, if the device now has good firmware,<br class=3D"">it would =
be able to send the "please unquarantine me" signal.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">I=
 believe strongly that the only safe thing you can do with a device =
that=E2=80=99s been in any way compromised is completely isolate it.It =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to send an =E2=80=9Cunquarantine=E2=80=9D =
signal. You shouldn=E2=80=99t even try to talk to it.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Let the firewall which =
is implementing MUD notify the user about the problem. Let the =
device=E2=80=99s app or cloud services notify the user that the device =
is offline. Possibly in a later evolution of MUD the firewall might have =
a way to notify the device=E2=80=99s cloud service, but I wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 hamstring the initial version of MUD with an attempt to do =
that.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- john romkey</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>https;//<a href=3D"http://romkey.com" =
class=3D"">romkey.com</a></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_EABAD983-EB6E-4F93-A1D3-3C6FB9586844--


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From: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:14:40 -0400
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Subject: [Mud] mudmaker ICMP support?
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Mudmaker  leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice.  Was this intentional or
simply a matter of not having enough time to add it?

Thanks,

Ranga

-- 
M. Ranganathan

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Mudmaker=C2=A0 leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice.=
=C2=A0 Was this intentional or simply a matter of not having enough time to=
 add it? <br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks, <br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>Ranga<br></div><div><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"=
 data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. R=
anganathan <br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [Mud] mudmaker ICMP support?
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Reason I am asking the question is to know if one would expect to see ICMP
ACE's in a MUD profile (i.e.  would you expect a manufacturer to specify
ICMP ACE's in a MUD profile?)

Thanks,

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:14 PM M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mudmaker  leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice.  Was this intentional or
> simply a matter of not having enough time to add it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ranga
>
> --
> M. Ranganathan
>
>

-- 
M. Ranganathan

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Reason I am asking the question is to know if one wou=
ld expect to see ICMP ACE&#39;s in a MUD profile (i.e.=C2=A0 would you expe=
ct a manufacturer to specify ICMP ACE&#39;s in a MUD profile?)</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Thanks,<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 1:14 PM M. Ranganatha=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mranga@gmail.com">mranga@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div>Mudmaker=C2=A0 leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice.=C2=A0 Was this in=
tentional or simply a matter of not having enough time to add it? <br></div=
><div><br></div><div>Thanks, <br></div><div><br></div><div>Ranga<br></div><=
div><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail-m_-6678082601354668781gmail_=
signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. Ranganathan <br><br></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>M. Ranganathan <br><br><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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> On 11 Jul 2019, at 19:14, M. Ranganathan <mranga@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Mudmaker  leaves out ICMP as a protocol choice.  Was this intentional =
or simply a matter of not having enough time to add it?

It=E2=80=99s allowed.  See Page 13, middle of the page, what ACL model =
features are recommended.

Eliot

>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Ranga
>=20
> --
> M. Ranganathan
>=20
> --
> Mud mailing list
> Mud@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mud


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I have a beta version of a new MUD maker for those who would like to =
take a look.  It=E2=80=99s at https://mudmaker.org/beta.  If you would =
like to make changes, feel free to submit PRs to =
https://github.com/elear/mud.

Eliot

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Subject: [Dumpsterfire] Vulnerabilities found in GE anesthesia machines
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Via RISKS Digest 31.33:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/vulnerabilities-found-in-ge-anesthesia-machin=
es/

GE recommends not connecting vulnerable anesthesia machines to hospital
networks.

Security researchers have discovered vulnerabilities in two models of
hospital anesthesia machines manufactured by General Electric (GE).

The two devices found to be vulnerable are GE Aestiva and GE Aespire
-- models 7100 and 7900. According to researchers from CyberMDX, a
healthcare cybersecurity firm, the vulnerabilities reside in the two
devices' firmware.

CyberMDX said attackers on the same network as the devices -- a
hospital's network -- can send remote commands that can alter devices'
settings.

The researcher claims the commands can be used to make unauthorized
adjustments to the anesthetic machines' gas composition, such as
modifying the concentration of oxygen, CO2, N2O, and other anesthetic
agents, or the gas' barometric pressure.

Cheers,

-- =

Jos=E9 Mar=EDa (Chema) Mateos || https://rinzewind.org

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Subject: [Mud] As we start hacking tomorrow...
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=E2=80=A6 we can think about continuing our hacking at RIPE.

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https://labs.ripe.net/Members/becha/iot-hackathon-at-ripe-79-in-rotterdam

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From nobody Sun Jul 21 07:48:24 2019
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From: Lucas Estienne <Lucas.Estienne@cira.ca>
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Hi,

Here's the library we worked on during the hackathon to generate mud files:
https://github.com/lstn/muddy
https://pypi.org/project/muddy/
pip3 install muddy

It comes with a cli (muddy make  ...) however the actual logic to make it w=
ork isn't implemented yet... if someone wants to make a PR for that :)

Lucas





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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here&#8217;s the library we worked on during the hac=
kathon to generate mud files:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/lstn/muddy">https://gi=
thub.com/lstn/muddy</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://pypi.org/project/muddy/">https://=
pypi.org/project/muddy/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">pip3 install muddy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It comes with a cli (muddy make &nbsp;&#8230;) howev=
er the actual logic to make it work isn&#8217;t implemented yet&#8230; if s=
omeone wants to make a PR for that
<span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings">J</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lucas <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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9:00am Room C2 on the 21st Floor

Agenda:
Results of the Hackathon
New drafts this time around and changes to old ones
Skills for MUD files
non-ANIMA ACP different forms of integration
Trust model for MUD signatures
Other stuff

Eliot

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">9:00am Room C2 on the 21st Floor<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Agenda:</div><div class=""><ul class="MailOutline"><li class="">Results of the Hackathon</li><li class="">New drafts this time around and changes to old ones</li><li class="">Skills for MUD files</li><li class="">non-ANIMA ACP different forms of integration</li><li class="">Trust model for MUD signatures</li><li class="">Other stuff</li></ul><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class="">Eliot</div></body></html>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [Captive-portals] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal (fwd) Michael Richardson: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Most discussion has, co-chair hat off, be circling around some minimal
working API mechanism to get things started.

That said, one could easily imagine, for example, something as simple as an
additional API boolean key,

    "quarantined": true|false,

Perhaps once there's some experience with 7710bis+API implementation...

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 14:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Again, a WG whose ML is not the WG name, and there is no alias. ARGH.
> Here are some emails that didn't get to captive-portals@ietf.org.
> Sorry for the duplication for others.
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> To: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>,
> capport@ietf.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:41:58 -0400
> Subject: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
>
> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.
> I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's MUD
> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
>
> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined
> (I really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word)
> that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
> learn what went on.
>
> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterpris=
e
> NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I assume, involved
> forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we have APIs, we can inform
> device as well.
>
> Is this on anyone's radar?
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
> Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "mud@ietf.org" <mud@ietf.org>,
> capport@ietf.org
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:38:58 -0400
> Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive
> portal
>
> Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>     > I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.  Can you show a fl=
ow that
> will
>     > work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?
>
> Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated
> "VLAN".  I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it's a "MAC-address
> VLAN", not an 802.1Q thing.  It's really just a layer-2 ACL.
>
> {We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it's packets,
> nor
> can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can't do a "port-based" VLAN,
> because wifi has no ports, and we don't really know how many unmanaged
> switches might be on the port anyway.
> One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}
>
> Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,
> all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-acc=
ess/
> )
> would go into a captive portal system.
>
> Such a system would, according to
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture/
> receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.
> (While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a
> URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)
>
> Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the
> appropriate "you might be captive" ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIGHT?
>
> Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API
> described at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-api/
> to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, =
it
> can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a
> timer goes off.  (%)
>
> This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point,
> which
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/ can
> deliver
> via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.
>
>
>     >> On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca=
>
>     >> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Signed PGP part
>     >>
>     >> Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.
> I
>     >> have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it's M=
UD
>     >> profile.  There are a bunch of issues around this.
>     >>
>     >> Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined
> (I
>     >> really think it should be "quaranteed", but that's not a word) tha=
t
>     >> the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to
>     >> learn what went on.
>     >>
>     >> This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most
>     >> enterprise NEA systems upon encountering "infection".  This has, I
>     >> assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human.  But, if we
> have
>     >> APIs, we can inform device as well.
>     >>
>     >> Is this on anyone's radar?
>     >>
>     >> --
>     >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software
> Works
>     >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Captive-portals mailing list
> Captive-portals@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/captive-portals
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Most discussion has, co-chair hat off, be circling around =
some minimal working API mechanism to get things started.<div><br></div><di=
v>That said, one could easily imagine, for example, something as simple as=
=C2=A0an additional API boolean key,</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 &quot;quarantined&quot;: true|false,</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps once=
 there&#39;s some experience with 7710bis+API implementation...</div></div>=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue=
, 9 Jul 2019 at 14:41, Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@=
sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Again, a WG whose ML is not the WG name, and there is no alias. ARGH.<br>
Here are some emails that didn&#39;t get to <a href=3D"mailto:captive-porta=
ls@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">captive-portals@ietf.org</a>.<br>
Sorry for the duplication for others.<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=C2=A0Michael R=
ichardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">=
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br>To:=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">opsawg@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:o=
psawg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">opsawg@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mud@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mud@ietf.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D=
"mailto:capport@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">capport@ietf.org</a><br>Cc:=C2=
=A0<br>Bcc:=C2=A0<br>Date:=C2=A0Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:41:58 -0400<br>Subject:=
=C2=A0putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal<br><br>
Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking about CAPPORT.<br>
I have been working on what to do when an IoT device violates it&#39;s MUD<=
br>
profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around this.<br>
<br>
Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device is quarantined<br>
(I really think it should be &quot;quaranteed&quot;, but that&#39;s not a w=
ord)<br>
that the capport controls and APIs should be available to the device to<br>
learn what went on.<br>
<br>
This is not new, I think that this as been the approach of most enterprise<=
br>
NEA systems upon encountering &quot;infection&quot;.=C2=A0 This has, I assu=
me, involved<br>
forced HTTP proxies to inform human.=C2=A0 But, if we have APIs, we can inf=
orm<br>
device as well.<br>
<br>
Is this on anyone&#39;s radar?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From:=C2=A0Michael R=
ichardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">=
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br>To:=C2=A0Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc:=C2=A0&quot;=
<a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">opsawg@ietf.org</a>&qu=
ot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">opsawg@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mud@ietf=
.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mud@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mud@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:capport@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">cappo=
rt@ietf.org</a><br>Bcc:=C2=A0<br>Date:=C2=A0Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:38:58 -0400=
<br>Subject:=C2=A0Re: [OPSAWG] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a cap=
tive portal<br><br>
Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I=E2=80=99m not quite certain how it would work.=C2=A0 C=
an you show a flow that will<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; work for an IoT device (e.g., headless and no display)?<=
br>
<br>
Device gets quarantined, and the MUD-controller moves it into an isolated<b=
r>
&quot;VLAN&quot;.=C2=A0 I put air/scare quotes around VLAN, because it&#39;=
s a &quot;MAC-address<br>
VLAN&quot;, not an 802.1Q thing.=C2=A0 It&#39;s really just a layer-2 ACL.<=
br>
<br>
{We have no way to force the mishaving device into tagging it&#39;s packets=
, nor<br>
can we force it onto some other ESSID. We can&#39;t do a &quot;port-based&q=
uot; VLAN,<br>
because wifi has no ports, and we don&#39;t really know how many unmanaged<=
br>
switches might be on the port anyway.<br>
One might map this onto a IEEE 802.1Q VLAN across a backbone}<br>
<br>
Instead of just dropping all traffic for a device in this category,<br>
all traffic (other than excepted traffic if you implement<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quaran=
tined-access/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-richardson-shg-mud-quarantined-access/</a>)<br>
would go into a captive portal system.<br>
<br>
Such a system would, according to<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-architecture=
/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-ietf-capport-architecture/</a><br>
receive a message when it initiates connections which are not allowed.<br>
(While the capport WG contemplated an ICMP unreachable message with a<br>
URI in it at one point, that is not the current design)<br>
<br>
Actually, I have no idea from reviewing the documentation what the<br>
appropriate &quot;you might be captive&quot; ICMP is now.. THERE IS ONE RIG=
HT?<br>
<br>
Once the IoT device gets such a message, it can use the API<br>
described at: <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cappor=
t-api/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-capport-api/</a><br>
to retrieve a JSON object telling it that it is captive. At which point, it=
<br>
can flash a LED, or attempt a firmware upgrade, or maybe just reboot if a<b=
r>
timer goes off.=C2=A0 (%)<br>
<br>
This requires that the IoT device get the captive portal API end point, whi=
ch<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-capport-rfc7710bis/</a> can deliver<br>
via DHCPv4/v6 or RA.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; On 9 Jul 2019, at 16:41, Michael Richardson &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman=
.ca</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Signed PGP part<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Between editing drafts yesterday, I got to thinking =
about CAPPORT.=C2=A0 I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; have been working on what to do when an IoT device v=
iolates it&#39;s MUD<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; profile.=C2=A0 There are a bunch of issues around th=
is.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Yesterday, it occured to me that when such a device =
is quarantined (I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; really think it should be &quot;quaranteed&quot;, bu=
t that&#39;s not a word) that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; the capport controls and APIs should be available to=
 the device to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; learn what went on.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; This is not new, I think that this as been the appro=
ach of most<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; enterprise NEA systems upon encountering &quot;infec=
tion&quot;.=C2=A0 This has, I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; assume, involved forced HTTP proxies to inform human=
.=C2=A0 But, if we have<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; APIs, we can inform device as well.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Is this on anyone&#39;s radar?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; --<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@=
sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman So=
ftware Works<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Captive-portals mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Captive-portals@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Captive-porta=
ls@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/captive-portals" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/captive-p=
ortals</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000001be4ce058e28a124--


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Subject: [Mud] updates to diagram
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I have updated the dia/svg version of the diagram that Eliot put on the
screen, but some were too far away to see.

There is also an asciio version, but I think that I will maintain the pretty
version only.   The key changes is that I inserted RFC8572 and RFC8366
labels.

I will think about how to insert BRSKI-TEEP.

It is at:
  https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap

https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/technology-compo=
nents.svg

https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/building-block-d=
iagram.txt

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [=20
=09



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From: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
To: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>
cc: "M. Ranganathan" <mranga@gmail.com>, mud@ietf.org
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Comments: In-reply-to tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com> message dated "Tue, 21 May 2019 12:33:12 +0530."
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Subject: Re: [Mud] Simplified Quarantine model
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tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com> wrote:
    > How do you identify an attacker is using the victim device's MAC and =
IP
    > address to send attack traffic (e.g. SYN flood) ?

On wired, this has to be protected by using a managed switch and
then locking ports down to mac addresses.

On wireless, one needs unique PSKs (or Enterprise WPA), which then one can
identify which device is which, and lock the MAC address down.

Of course, all this fails if the devices are expected to randomize the L2
address.

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
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=09

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Subject: Re: [Mud] [Captive-portals] putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal (fwd) Michael Richardson: putting quarantined IoT devices behind a captive portal
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Erik Kline <ek@loon.com> wrote:
    > Most discussion has, co-chair hat off, be circling around some minimal
    > working API mechanism to get things started.

    > That said, one could easily imagine, for example, something as simple
    > as an additional API boolean key,

    > "quarantined": true|false,

I think that I want to implement exactly this then.

This means providing the API info in the DHCPv4 to all devices, but
for many devices, even though there is no restriction at all.=20

A concern that was recently raised is attackers that might attempt to
impersonate other devices (same L2/L3 address), and do things to trigger
quarantine.  Once you train the users to unquarantine without thinking...

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [=20
=09

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From: tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:25:50 +0530
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
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On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 04:37, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:

>
> tirumal reddy <kondtir@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > How do you identify an attacker is using the victim device's MAC and
> IP
>     > address to send attack traffic (e.g. SYN flood) ?
>
> On wired, this has to be protected by using a managed switch and
> then locking ports down to mac addresses.
>
> On wireless, one needs unique PSKs (or Enterprise WPA), which then one can
> identify which device is which, and lock the MAC address down.
>
> Of course, all this fails if the devices are expected to randomize the L2
> address.
>

Yes, the problem is in Home networks and Enterprise networks already use
various techniques to detect MAC spoofing.

-Tiru


>
> --
> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh
> networks [
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network
> architect  [
> ]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on
> rails    [
>
>

--000000000000ce8a77058e66f632
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 04:37, Michael Ric=
hardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca">mcr@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><br>
tirumal reddy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kondtir@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ko=
ndtir@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; How do you identify an attacker is using the victim devi=
ce&#39;s MAC and IP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; address to send attack traffic (e.g. SYN flood) ?<br>
<br>
On wired, this has to be protected by using a managed switch and<br>
then locking ports down to mac addresses.<br>
<br>
On wireless, one needs unique PSKs (or Enterprise WPA), which then one can<=
br>
identify which device is which, and lock the MAC address down.<br>
<br>
Of course, all this fails if the devices are expected to randomize the L2<b=
r>
address.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, the problem is in Home ne=
tworks and Enterprise networks already use various techniques to detect MAC=
 spoofing.</div><div><br></div><div>-Tiru</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- <br>
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o=
dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me=
sh networks [ <br>
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [ <br>
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">=
mcr@sandelman.ca</a>=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.sandelman.ca/" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.sandelman.ca/</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [ <br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000ce8a77058e66f632--


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Kent, thanks for the updates.
I will adjust the diagram as you suggest!

I have abandonned the enrollment-roadmap document, and I moved it to
the iot-dir wiki at:

  https://trac.ietf.org/trac/int/wiki/EnrollmentRoadmap

but, the wiki doesn't really help people to edit/update/maintain the diagra=
m,
so it is still in github. I'll change the github to indicate the text is
no longer live.

If you want to update the text in the wiki directly, that would
be appreciated.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:
    > The diagram has the label "NETCONF", but this is confusing...while
    > produced by the NETCONF WG, the solution itself does not depend on the
    > NETCONF=20
    > protocol (though it MAY bootstrap a secure NETCONF session) From a pr=
otocol
    > perspective, it might be more appropriate to have HTTP, or REST, or e=
ven
    > RESTCONF. That said, I think the label "SZTP" is best, as that is the
    > acronyms used in the RFC.

For lack of a better term, I'll change "NETCONF" to "SZTP (netconf)"

    > I'm unsure about what is implied by the label MASA. If just the acron=
ym as
    > defined in the voucher draft, then there should be an arrow pointing =
to
    > the SZTP box as well. However, if it implies a functional component
    > (protocol API), then there should be another box called "OVIS"
    > (ownership voucher=20
    > issuance service) that points to the SZTP box.

My intention of the MASA box is that it involves itself in the middle
three items, but not the left-most "ultra-contrained bootstrap"

I have added an equivalent box and marked it "OVIS"

    > Lastly, the bottom row appears to capture statefulness of the
    > connection to MASA.

No, it's not connection to the MASA, the MASA box is just at the bottom
in order to not overlap.   The statefulness is intended to be the
transport that is under the boxes above.
That is, BRSKI is:

     JSON-voucher -over-
     CMS          -over-
     TCP          -over-
     circuit-level

while 6tisch-zero-touch is:
      CBOR              -over-
      COSE              -over-
      EDHOC/LAKE        -over-
      OSCORE            -over-
      stateless CoAP proxy

    > FWIW, the SZTP solution doesn't necessitate a MASA
    > at the time of the=20
    > bootstrapping event. To be clearer, the pledge MAY send a nonce to a =
local
    > SZTP server, which MAY in turn use that nonce to retrieve an ephemeral
    > voucher from a MASA/OVIS system.

Agreed... I'm in general assuming that it could be USB/sneaker-net.
I don't know how to represent this well.


=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [=20
=09

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From: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:53:45 -0400
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/add/FQK97atvwzcGy38LIcvRxFLZBks>
Subject: Re: [Add] My longer list of questions [from partial distribution at
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On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 11:06 AM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Jul 26, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.co=
m>
> wrote:
>
>
>    - One approach to enforcing the policy has a larger scope than the OS.
>    It is to view DoH itself as the problem, and ask, how can we put the D=
oH
>    genie (djinn) back in the bottle?
>
> The djinn was never in the bottle in the first place. If this discussion
> is going to continue to entertain the fantasy that malware isn=E2=80=99t =
already
> doing this, it=E2=80=99s not likely to be very useful.
>

One important distinction about malware "doing this": prior to the scenario
where DoH (to an independently-operated resolver) was used, it was possible
to detect this malware activity by correlation between DNS queries and TLS
connections.

In order to establish a TLS connection, the client app needs to do a DNS
query to identify the IP address of the server to which it plans to connect=
..

A hypothetical anti-malware system with integration to the DNS query feed,
would be aware of specific clients requesting specific DNS records, and the
TTLs of the responses.

Connections not conforming to tuples of (current time, client IP, server
IP, TTL expiry time) would be detectable and alert-able. (Additional
information on connections' SNI and servers' names allows much greater
accuracy, but if/when ESNI happens, this signal goes away.)

In an environment where DNS resolver choice cannot be detected or enforced,
negates this model, particularly if all DNS query traffic becomes
unobservable to the hypothetical anti-malware system.

This is a change to the threat detection and blocking environment, and
exists only when encrypted DNS is commingled with HTTPS traffic.

Brian

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 11:06 AM Ted =
Lemon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mellon@fugue.com">mellon@fugue.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
..8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">On Jul 26, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Brian Dickson &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian=
..peter.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><ul><li>One approa=
ch to enforcing the policy has a larger scope than the OS. It is to view Do=
H itself as the problem, and ask, how can we put the DoH genie (djinn) back=
 in the bottle?</li></ul></div></div>
</div></blockquote><div>The djinn was never in the bottle in the first plac=
e. If this discussion is going to continue to entertain the fantasy that ma=
lware isn=E2=80=99t already doing this, it=E2=80=99s not likely to be very =
useful.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>One important disti=
nction about malware &quot;doing this&quot;: prior to the scenario where Do=
H (to an independently-operated resolver) was used, it was possible to dete=
ct this malware activity by correlation between DNS queries and TLS connect=
ions.</div><div><br></div><div>In order to establish a TLS connection, the =
client app needs to do a DNS query to identify the IP address of the server=
 to which it plans to connect.</div><div><br></div><div>A hypothetical anti=
-malware system with integration to the DNS query feed, would be aware of s=
pecific clients requesting specific DNS records, and the TTLs of the respon=
ses.</div><div><br></div><div>Connections not conforming to tuples of (curr=
ent time, client IP, server IP, TTL expiry time) would be detectable and al=
ert-able. (Additional information on connections&#39; SNI and servers&#39; =
names allows much greater accuracy, but if/when ESNI happens, this signal g=
oes away.)</div><div><br></div><div>In an environment where DNS resolver ch=
oice cannot be detected or enforced, negates this model, particularly if al=
l DNS query traffic becomes unobservable to the hypothetical anti-malware s=
ystem.</div><div><br></div><div>This is a change to the threat detection an=
d blocking environment, and exists only when encrypted DNS is commingled wi=
th HTTPS traffic.</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><div>=C2=A0</div></di=
v></div>

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Add mailing list
Add@ietf.org
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Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
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From nobody Sun Jul 28 09:09:07 2019
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Hi Michael,

Cool diagram.  A few comments:

The diagram has the label "NETCONF", but this is confusing...while =
produced by the NETCONF WG, the solution itself does not depend on the =
NETCONF protocol (though it MAY bootstrap a secure NETCONF session)  =
=46rom a protocol perspective, it might be more appropriate to have =
HTTP, or REST, or even RESTCONF.  That said, I think the label "SZTP" is =
best, as that is the acronyms used in the RFC.

I'm unsure about what is implied by the label MASA.  If just the acronym =
as defined in the voucher draft, then there should be an arrow pointing =
to the SZTP box as well.  However, if it implies a functional component =
(protocol API), then there should be another box called "OVIS" =
(ownership voucher issuance service) that points to the SZTP box.

Lastly, the bottom row appears to capture statefulness of the connection =
to MASA.  FWIW, the SZTP solution doesn't necessitate a MASA at the time =
of the bootstrapping event.  To be clearer, the pledge MAY send a nonce =
to a local SZTP server, which MAY in turn use that nonce to retrieve an =
ephemeral voucher from a MASA/OVIS system.

Also, I skimmed the enrollment-roadmap draft and found a couple the =
SZTP-related sections needing fixing:


Section 5 (call-home ssh/tls/usbkey):

NEW:

   SZTP assumes that the pledge can access a "source of bootstrapping=20
   information", which is unbounded, though the draft defines four: =
removable
   storage devices (e.g., USB key), DNS/mDNS, DHCP v4/v6, and SZTP
   bootstrap server (i.e., HTTPS).   Pledges MAY have well-known SZTP
   bootstrap servers preconfigured during manufacturing, which entails
   Internet connectivity).

   The end-state of the bootstrapping process is the pledge running an =
initial=20
   configuration that may configure the pledge to either open ports to =
accept
   inbound management connections, or cause the pledge to proactively =
initiate
   outbound call home management connections (e.g., RFC 8071).



And also Section 7.1 (NETCONF):

NEW

   SZTP is defined in RFC 8572.

   SZTP provides the pledge an initial configuration via a mix of =
sources
   including removable storage devices (e.g., USB Key,  DHCPv4, DHCPv6,
   mDNS, and SZTP bootstrap servers).  Ownership vouchers are only
   required when the pledge is otherwise unable to trust the network=20
   (e.g., using built-in anchors). =20

   The initial configuration can be any valid configuration, but =
typically it is
   the minimal necessary to enable the pledge to establish connectivity =
to
   its owner's  controller/NMS application.  The pledge MAY open ports =
for=20
   inbound management connections, but it is more typical for the pledge
   to initiate a call home connection (e.g., RFC 8071).

   SZTP is seen as an updated version of TR-69 by some, appropriate
   for configuration of residential appliances which are drop-shiped by
   ISPs or other service providers to homes.  It is also used for other
   deployments including, e.g., campus, retail, kiosks, satellite =
offices.



Kent



> On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I have updated the dia/svg version of the diagram that Eliot put on =
the
> screen, but some were too far away to see.
>=20
> There is also an asciio version, but I think that I will maintain the =
pretty
> version only.   The key changes is that I inserted RFC8572 and RFC8366
> labels.
>=20
> I will think about how to insert BRSKI-TEEP.
>=20
> It is at:
>  https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap
>=20
> =
https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/technology-comp=
onents.svg
>=20
> =
https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/building-block-=
diagram.txt
>=20
> --=20
> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh =
networks [=20
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network =
architect  [=20
> ]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on =
rails    [=20
> =09
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Iot-onboarding mailing list
> Iot-onboarding@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iot-onboarding


--Apple-Mail=_D6666BF6-9A8C-4D76-8753-E68750DFBBA5
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	charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi Michael,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cool diagram. &nbsp;A few comments:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The diagram has the label "NETCONF", =
but this is confusing...while produced by the NETCONF WG, the solution =
itself does not depend on the NETCONF protocol (though it MAY bootstrap =
a secure NETCONF session) &nbsp;=46rom a protocol perspective, it might =
be more appropriate to have HTTP, or REST, or even RESTCONF. &nbsp;That =
said, I think the label "SZTP" is best, as that is the acronyms used in =
the RFC.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm =
unsure about what is implied by the label MASA. &nbsp;If just the =
acronym as defined in the voucher draft, then there should be an arrow =
pointing to the SZTP box as well. &nbsp;However, if it implies a =
functional component (protocol API), then there should be another box =
called "OVIS" (ownership voucher issuance service) that points to the =
SZTP box.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Lastly, the bottom row appears to capture statefulness of the =
connection to MASA. &nbsp;FWIW, the SZTP solution doesn't necessitate a =
MASA at the time of the bootstrapping event. &nbsp;To be clearer, the =
pledge MAY send a nonce to a local SZTP server, which MAY in turn use =
that nonce to retrieve an ephemeral voucher from a MASA/OVIS =
system.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, =
I skimmed the enrollment-roadmap draft and found a couple the =
SZTP-related sections needing fixing:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Section 5 (call-home ssh/tls/usbkey):<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">NEW:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;SZTP assumes that the =
pledge can access a "source of bootstrapping&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;information", which is unbounded, though the =
draft defines four: removable</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;storage =
devices (e.g., USB key), DNS/mDNS, DHCP v4/v6, and SZTP</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;bootstrap server (i.e., HTTPS). &nbsp; Pledges =
MAY have well-known SZTP</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;bootstrap =
servers preconfigured during manufacturing, which entails</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;Internet connectivity).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;The end-state of the =
bootstrapping process is the pledge running an initial&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;configuration that may configure =
the&nbsp;pledge&nbsp;to either open ports to accept</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;inbound management connections, or cause the =
pledge to proactively initiate</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;outbound call home management connections (e.g., RFC =
8071).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And =
also Section 7.1 (NETCONF):</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">NEW</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;SZTP is =
defined in RFC 8572.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;SZTP provides the pledge an initial configuration&nbsp;via a mix =
of sources</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;including removable storage =
devices (e.g., USB Key, &nbsp;DHCPv4, DHCPv6,</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;mDNS, and SZTP bootstrap servers). &nbsp;Ownership vouchers are =
only</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;required when the pledge is =
otherwise unable to trust the network&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;(e.g., using built-in anchors). &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;The initial configuration =
can be any valid configuration, but typically it is</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;the minimal necessary to enable the pledge to =
establish connectivity to</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;its owner's =
&nbsp;controller/NMS application. &nbsp;The&nbsp;pledge&nbsp;MAY open =
ports for&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;inbound management =
connections, but it is more typical for the pledge</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;to initiate a call home connection (e.g., RFC =
8071).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;SZTP is seen as an updated version of TR-69 by some, =
appropriate<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;for configuration of residential =
appliances which are drop-shiped by<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;ISPs or =
other service providers to homes. &nbsp;It is also used for =
other</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;deployments including, e.g., =
campus, retail, kiosks, satellite offices.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Kent</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Michael =
Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I have updated the dia/svg version of the diagram that Eliot =
put on the<br class=3D"">screen, but some were too far away to see.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There is also an asciio version, but I think =
that I will maintain the pretty<br class=3D"">version only. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;The key changes is that I inserted RFC8572 and RFC8366<br =
class=3D"">labels.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I will think about how =
to insert BRSKI-TEEP.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It is at:<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/technol=
ogy-components.svg" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/tech=
nology-components.svg</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">https://github.com/anima-wg/enrollment-roadmap/blob/master/buil=
ding-block-diagram.txt<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- <br class=3D"">] =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;Never tell me the odds! =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| ipv6 mesh networks [ <br class=3D"">] =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| network architect &nbsp;[ =
<br class=3D"">] &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mcr@sandelman.ca =
&nbsp;http://www.sandelman.ca/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;ruby on rails =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[ <br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">-- <br class=3D"">Iot-onboarding mailing list<br =
class=3D"">Iot-onboarding@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iot-onboarding<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_D6666BF6-9A8C-4D76-8753-E68750DFBBA5--


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Subject: [Mud] a place MUD would have helped --- US security cameras
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btw: I don't think it's actually fair to single-out cameras from a single
     country. I haven't read the Act (nor am I likely to), but it imagine
     if it had used positive language like, "the country of origin and
     the manufacturing firm MUST be easily identifiable on packaging
     and via firmware provided information, such as RFC8520"

{I am taking everything Bloomberg writes with a medium sized grain of salt,
after the spy chip story.}

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-10/banned-chinese-security-=
cameras-are-almost-impossible-to-remove says:

   But thousands of the devices are still in place and chances are most won=
=E2=80=99t
   be removed before the Aug. 13 deadline. A complex web of supply chain
   logistics and licensing agreements make it almost impossible to know
   whether a security camera is actually made in China or contains componen=
ts
   that would violate U.S. rules.=20=20

   The National Defense Authorization Act, or NDAA, which outlines the budg=
et
   and spending for the Defense Department each year, included an amendment
   for fiscal 2019 that would ensure federal agencies do not purchase
   Chinese-made surveillance cameras. The amendment singles out Zhejiang
   Dahua Technology Co. and Hangzhou Hikvision Digital Technology Co., both
   of which have raised security concerns with the U.S. government and
   surveillance industry.

   ...

I wrote on the IoTSF basecamp in the thread about this:

   It's amazing, but hardly surprising.  The lack of comprehension of among
   the (US) supply chain of the risks of relabelling has been going on for
   decades.  Swapping internal components (even moving to completely
   different CPUs) without changing the label on the outside is something
   that many US based suppliers of equipment including Cisco/Linksys, Norte=
l,
   Polycom, Belkin, etc. have done repeatedly to the frustration of their
   customers who want to do simple things like just upgrade firmware
   regularly.=20

   If Honeywell doesn't know what they sold, then they can hardly be expect=
ed
   to comply to needs to issue CVEs, etc. which suggests that both the cust=
omer
   and the supplier had no plans at all to ever think about firmware update=
s to the
   devices.  Were I in charge, I'd be firing/demoting people in the *govern=
ment*
   who did this procurement, and not just cancelling contracts but going for
   breach of contract.=20=20=20

  Let me suggest some ways in which this could have been prevented. (You'll
  hardly be surprised at my self-promotion, but I'm working in this area for
  a reason...)  Two key and usefully intertwined technologies: had RFC8520
  (MUD) been required for the cameras, then the MUD URL presented by the
  *firmware* might have sliced through all relabelling BS, and would
  identified the product relatively well.

  If a proper onboarding system had been used that transferred ownership
  control to the legal owner, then that could   have resulted in a clear
  IDevID reference to the manufacturer, and through the onboarding process,=
 an=20
  actual inventory of devices.  The "BRSKI"
  (draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra) system that I'm a key author of=
=20
  is one such system; there were two talks at last year's IoTSF on BRSKI.
  BRSKI is one of the better ways to pass the MUD URL on.=20=20=20

  Firmware attestation is also important, not because it detects malicious
  firmware like was shipped by Dahua (honestly, how is that not a death
  sentence for the company?) , but because it forces the manufacturer of the
  firmware to identify itself.=20

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect =
  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [


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To: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" <jclarke@cisco.com>
References: <D9AF7D6E-7434-4AE4-A2A5-26CD52C2FE20@cisco.com> <849DED7F-6701-4B26-9645-0B076A224C05@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] The future of MUD work
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On the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me.  It=E2=80=99d be a =
very small working group ;-) If others are interested, they should speak =
up.

> On 30 Jul 2019, at 11:09, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Signed PGP part
> Hi Joe,
>=20
>> On 29 Jul 2019, at 23:44, Joe Clarke (jclarke) <jclarke@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> OpsAWG members and our Ops ADs, it was discussed in opsawg at IETF =
105 that with the amount of MUD work being proposed (and discussions =
happening outside of opsawg) that perhaps MUD should evolve into its own =
WG.  Some cons to this approached were discussed (maybe it would be too =
heavy-weight with a charter, milestones, etc.).  However, I wanted to =
take this conversation to the list so we can close on it publicly.
>>=20
>> Speaking as WG co-chair, I am happy to continue to support the MUD =
work in opsawg, but I want to make sure the WG feels compelled to work =
on it; and I want to make sure the full community that is interested in =
MUD can follow and discuss items here.  That said, it was mentioned in =
105 that perhaps a bigger =E2=80=9Con-boarding=E2=80=9D set of work =
would be better served in its own WG.  I think if the scope of MUD grows =
beyond the definition and its extensions (as we=E2=80=99ve been seeing =
the work progress thus far) it might be better served in its own WG =
space.
>>=20
>> Thoughts?
>=20
> I think it is probably time for at least one WG to spring from OPSAWG. =
 We didn=E2=80=99t really complete the agenda at the IETF, and a good =
reason of that was MUD.  There are at least four active drafts on that =
one subject, one of which we didn=E2=80=99t really talk about =
(bw-profile).  For me it=E2=80=99s a matter of what can reasonably be =
coded, tested, and be useful for manufacturers.  In as much as we can =
bring a bit more focus to manufacturers by offering them more of a venue =
for discussion, the additional WG would be welcome.  On the other hand, =
if we find that we=E2=80=99re not making progress, or if we progress =
extensions quickly, we can close the WG and continue the mailing list, =
and move back to OPSAWG.  I don=E2=80=99t see a MUD working group as a =
long term activity (famous last words), but targeted more at producing =
the necessary for broader adoption and then going out of business.
>=20
> Eliot
>=20
>>=20
>> Joe
>> _______________________________________________
>> OPSAWG mailing list
>> OPSAWG@ietf.org <mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg>
>=20
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me. &nbsp;It=E2=80=99d be a =
very small working group ;-) If others are interested, they should speak =
up.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 30 Jul 2019, at 11:09, Eliot Lear &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com" class=3D"">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"protected-part" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D"protected-title">Signed PGP =
part</div><div class=3D"protected-content">Hi Joe,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On 29 Jul 2019, at =
23:44, Joe Clarke (jclarke) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jclarke@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">jclarke@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">OpsAWG members and our Ops ADs, it was discussed in opsawg at =
IETF 105 that with the amount of MUD work being proposed (and =
discussions happening outside of opsawg) that perhaps MUD should evolve =
into its own WG. &nbsp;Some cons to this approached were discussed =
(maybe it would be too heavy-weight with a charter, milestones, etc.). =
&nbsp;However, I wanted to take this conversation to the list so we can =
close on it publicly.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Speaking as WG =
co-chair, I am happy to continue to support the MUD work in opsawg, but =
I want to make sure the WG feels compelled to work on it; and I want to =
make sure the full community that is interested in MUD can follow and =
discuss items here. &nbsp;That said, it was mentioned in 105 that =
perhaps a bigger =E2=80=9Con-boarding=E2=80=9D set of work would be =
better served in its own WG. &nbsp;I think if the scope of MUD grows =
beyond the definition and its extensions (as we=E2=80=99ve been seeing =
the work progress thus far) it might be better served in its own WG =
space.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thoughts?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I think it is probably time for =
at least one WG to spring from OPSAWG. &nbsp;We didn=E2=80=99t really =
complete the agenda at the IETF, and a good reason of that was MUD. =
&nbsp;There are at least four active drafts on that one subject, one of =
which we didn=E2=80=99t really talk about (bw-profile). &nbsp;For me =
it=E2=80=99s a matter of what can reasonably be coded, tested, and be =
useful for manufacturers. &nbsp;In as much as we can bring a bit more =
focus to manufacturers by offering them more of a venue for discussion, =
the additional WG would be welcome. &nbsp;On the other hand, if we find =
that we=E2=80=99re not making progress, or if we progress extensions =
quickly, we can close the WG and continue the mailing list, and move =
back to OPSAWG. &nbsp;I don=E2=80=99t see a MUD working group as a long =
term activity (famous last words), but targeted more at producing the =
necessary for broader adoption and then going out of business.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Eliot<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Joe<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">OPSAWG mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:OPSAWG@ietf.org" class=3D"">OPSAWG@ietf.org</a><br =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><iframe=
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From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Cc: "Joe Clarke (jclarke)" <jclarke@cisco.com>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "ops-ads@ietf.org" <ops-ads@ietf.org>, mud@ietf.org
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mud] [OPSAWG] The future of MUD work
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On Jul 31, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me.  It=E2=80=99d be a =
very small working group ;-) If others are interested, they should speak =
up.

I don=E2=80=99t think I would necessarily initiate work, but I suspect =
if there were a MUD WG I would show up for it and review documents.  The =
fact that MUD is in OPSAWG has meant that I don=E2=80=99t go because =
that=E2=80=99s not a WG I normally go to, and I didn=E2=80=99t realize =
that was where the MUD work was happening.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Jul 31, 2019, at 4:45 AM, Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com"=
 class=3D"">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">On the other hand, it shouldn=E2=80=99t just be me. =
&nbsp;It=E2=80=99d be a very small working group ;-) If others are =
interested, they should speak up.</span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t =
think I would necessarily initiate work, but I suspect if there were a =
MUD WG I would show up for it and review documents. &nbsp;The fact that =
MUD is in OPSAWG has meant that I don=E2=80=99t go because that=E2=80=99s =
not a WG I normally go to, and I didn=E2=80=99t realize that was where =
the MUD work was happening.</div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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