From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 10 21:33:02 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA05417 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 21:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1B2SBR06957; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 03:28:12 +0100 Received: from eccles.ee.ryerson.ca (eccles.ee.ryerson.ca [141.117.1.2]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1B0B6R06159 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:11:06 +0100 Received: from ee.ryerson.ca ([172.16.30.72]) by eccles.ee.ryerson.ca (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1B0B2bO086017 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 19:11:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jaseem@ee.ryerson.ca) Message-ID: <3E483CF1.8060007@ee.ryerson.ca> From: Muhammad Jaseemuddin Organization: Ryerson University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080404070507070600070808" Subject: [nemo] CFP: IEEE VTC Symposium on IP Mobility 2003 -- Deadline Extended to March 10 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 18:59:45 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080404070507070600070808 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Call for Papers - IP Mobility 2003 IEEE VTC Symposium on IP Mobility October 4-9, 2003 Orlando, FL, USA in Conjunction with IEEE VTC Fall 2003 Submission Deadline Extended: March 10, 2003 Scope ===== Mobility support in IP network has been an area of active research and development. The impacts of mobility and wireless medium at all layers of Internet architecture have generated wide range of interest in the research community. IETF has been working on standardizing protocols for inter-domain and intra-domain mobility, context transfer, routing for network mobility and ad-hoc networks. This symposium is aimed at providing researchers and practitioners a forum for presenting their research at all layers of Internet architecture and sharing experiences. It will provide a unique opportunity to people from academia and industry to exchange their ideas on short-term and long-term research issues. The theme of this symposium is **Support for Network Mobility**. The outcome of the symposium is expected to present a view on how close to reality is IP Mobility and set a direction for research to deal with emerging issues. The papers must discuss issues and solutions related to support for wireless medium and mobility in IP network. The symposium solicits papers related to but not limited to the following areas: * Routing for host (e.g. terminals) and network (e.g. trains, buses) mobility, protocols and performance * New approaches to wide-area and local mobility * Quality of Service models, resource management, and provisioning * Traffic Engineering in mobile wireless IP access networks * Transport protocol design for mobile wireless networks * Security including security threat models, threat analysis and their impact on routing * Application level protocol design and performance * Mobile and wireless applications, their service requirements and performance * Content delivery support in IP network for mobile users * Multicasting for mobile wireless services * Emerging network architectures (e.g. multi-hop ad-hoc network, sensor network) * Internetworking of different network types (e.g. ad-hoc to cellular, wireless LAN to cellular) * Inter-vehicular network architecture * Mobile wireless IP access network deployment and management Posters are also solicited on the projects related to the symposium theme. Submission Instructions ======================= Authors MUST submit an extended abstract (up to 2 pages) through the EDAS web site (http://www.edas.info/), together with a short abstract (approximately 150 words) in the EDAS web site form. Please note that the potential authors should create their own accounts in the EDAS web site (http://www.edas.info/) before submitting paper(s). Although either MS Word or PDF file format is acceptable when submitting the extended abstracts, it is strongly suggested that authors should submit papers using PDF format. The submission(s) should include complete contacting information of the author(s), such as the name, mailing address, telephone and fax numbers, and email address. All submitted papers are subject to peer review. Submissions can also be made using the links of call for technical papers in the conference web site: http://www.vtc2003.org/. Important Dates Extended Abstract Due: March 10, 2003 Acceptance Notification: May 15, 2003 Camera Ready Copy of Full Paper Due: July 15, 2003 Symposium Date: October 4, 2003 Organization ============ Program Co-Chairs: Muhammad Jaseemuddin (jaseem@ee.ryerson.ca) Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering Ryerson University Toronto, Canada Hongyi Li (hyli@nortelnetworks.com) Wireless Technology Lab Nortel Networks Ottawa, Canada Publicity Co-Chair: Junaid Zubairi (junaid.zubairi@fredonia.edu) Department of Mathematics and Computer Science SUNY at Fredonia Fredonia, NY, USA Technical Program Committee =========================== * Ahmed Helmy (U of Southern California, USA) * Abdelsalam Helal (U of Florida, Gainesville, USA) * Govindan Ravindran (Soma Networks, Canada) * Haseeb Akhtar (inCode Telecom group, USA) * Hany Elgebaly (Intel Corporation, USA) * Hesham Soliman (Ericsson, Sweden) * Lars Wolf (TU Braunschweig, Germany) * Michael Wolf (Daimler-Chrysler, Germany) * Raouf Boutaba (U of Waterloo, Canada) * Sajal Das (The U of Texas at Arlington, USA) * Samir R. Das (SUNY at Stony Brook, USA) * Thiery Ernst (Wide, Keio U, Japan) * Yasser Rasheed (Intel Corporation, USA) --------------080404070507070600070808 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="IPMobility_VTC2003.pdf" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="IPMobility_VTC2003.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 JVBERi0xLjMNJeLjz9MNCjYgMCBvYmoNPDwgDS9MaW5lYXJpemVkIDEgDS9PIDggDS9IIFsg MTQxMyAyNDggXSANL0wgMTEyNjcyIA0vRSAxMTA4ODcgDS9OIDEgDS9UIDExMjQzNSANPj4g DWVuZG9iag0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICB4cmVmDTYgNDkgDTAwMDAwMDAwMTYgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDAwMTMyNCAw MDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMDAxNjYxIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwMDE4NjUgMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDAw MjExMSAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMDAyNjAxIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwMDI4MjMgMDAwMDAgbg0K MDAwMDAwMzMwNSAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMDAzNTMzIDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwMDM1NzIgMDAw MDAgbg0KMDAwMDAwMzU5MyAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMDA0NTA1IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAwMDAwMDQ3 MTggMDAwMDAgbg0KMDAwMDAwNDkwNiAwMDAwMCBuDQowMDAwMDA1MTI2IDAwMDAwIG4NCjAw 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for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:40:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D1fBR13601; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:41:11 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D1eYR13576 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:40:34 +0100 From: Alper Yegin To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] AAA and NEMO Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:40:16 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO interaction. Please provide comments.... From network access authentication and authorization perspective, a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, PANA, 802.1x, etc.) In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when the MR moves around. How does accounting get affected by this? A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the MNNs can assume that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept any such fluctuations without explicit notification from the NEMO network. Are these assumptions acceptable? If not, then extensions to current AAA mechanisms might be needed. Thoughts? alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Wed Feb 12 21:16:44 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA21485 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 21:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D2I2R14111; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:18:02 +0100 Received: from ALPHA2.ITS.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha2.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.4]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D2HbR14096 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:17:37 +0100 Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.72]) by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V6.1 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KSE2NORHRK8WZ70B@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> for nemo@nal.motlabs.com; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:17:21 +1100 Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3876512C002; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:17:05 +1100 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (knuth.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.110]) by thwack.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD7A12C026; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:16:42 +1100 (EST) From: Greg Daley Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO To: Alper Yegin Cc: nemo@nal.motlabs.com Reply-to: greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au Message-id: <3E4B0009.5050106@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en, en-us User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020529 References: Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:16:41 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Alper. Thanks for starting this one up. Alper Yegin wrote: > Hello, > > Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO > interaction. Please provide comments.... > > From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the > its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the > MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent > from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this > requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should > not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. I think that this is implicit in systems which do not route-optimize MNN traffic direct from the NEMO. When RO is in place for MNNs though, it may depend on how addresses are being allocated to the MNNs from the access network. Proving the identities of MNNs may be necessary if these devices are required to interact with the router on the MR's link in order to gain the address or (Secure)ND capability for the addresses. Then again, since any ND operations are likely to be proxied, the MR could do this too, with its own identity or the MNN's. If the MR's CoA is the only address visible to the fixed network access router, it really should look similar to a mobile-ip MN. > Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require > auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the > Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, > PANA, 802.1x, etc.) > > In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment > hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with > the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when the MR > moves around. How does accounting get affected by this? I agree that the principle issue is that the MR does AAA with the Access Network. Since the Access Net will not have explicit NEMO support in most cases, I would try to maintain (at best) fixed-network requirements or (at worst) mobile-ip like requirements for the MR on the access link. Not that I think that mobile-ip like requirements are bad, but we can't expect more from the fixed networks. NEMOs may provide indication that they are Networks, in a mobile-ip compatible way, which could allow networks to support them better, or bar access because of service policy and security conerns about evil NEMOs ;). > A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that > MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the > MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the MNNs can assume > that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. > Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept any such fluctuations without > explicit notification from the NEMO network. Are these assumptions > acceptable? If not, then extensions to current AAA mechanisms might be > needed. I think that the relationship between the billing of MR and that of billing the MN may be re-negotiable through the AAA (MNN-MR) system. If the MNN desires further service, and costs change, then it may just be that negotiations for payment break down and the MNN doesn't receive service (or doesn't receive RO service). Both devices would be aware of the change, and would react appropriately. If a NEMOSP wasn't playing nicely, I'm pretty sure that people could find an alternative, or turn off their connection! Of course this issue applies only to those nodes sophisticated enough to negotiate either NEMO or AAA paramters. Some networks will have nodes which can't, or may find this sort of issue unnecessary. > Thoughts? > > alper > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Wed Feb 12 22:40:56 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA23331 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D3g4R14714; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 04:42:04 +0100 Received: from bulls.mei.co.jp (bulls.mei.co.jp [202.224.189.25]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D3fwR14629 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 04:41:58 +0100 Received: by bulls.mei.co.jp (8.12.5/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id h1D3fcPN018295; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:41:38 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id h1D3fbb02633; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:41:37 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/redsox) with ESMTP id h1D3fcM25770; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:41:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from yrpgw1.yrp.mci.mei.co.jp by postman.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.1/3.7Wpl2:mcihub1:03021217) id h1D3fbH05632; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:41:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp by yrpgw1.yrp.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.3/3.7W-GW1) with ESMTP id h1D3fjr14325; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:41:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from [133.183.212.174] by gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-TELECOM) with ESMTP id h1D3faH06281; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:41:36 +0900 (JST) From: Takeshi TANAKA To: Alper Yegin , IETF NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <20030213121647.BD4B.TAKESHI.TANAKA@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.06 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:42:11 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Alper It is a good starting point for discussion about NEMO and AAA. I think usage scenario of NEMO is important when considering NEMO and AAA. I assume this discussion is based on the scenario that MR is providing an ISP service. On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:40:16 -0800 Alper Yegin wrote : > Hello, > > Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO > interaction. Please provide comments.... > > From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the > its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the > MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent > from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this > requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should > not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. > Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require > auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the > Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, > PANA, 802.1x, etc.) I agree. As far as access network does not identify the resources(an IP address) that it provides to MR from the resources it provides to an ipv6 node, current AAA mechanism should serve. > In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment > hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with > the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when the MR > moves around. How does accounting get affected by this? > > A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that > MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the > MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the MNNs can assume > that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. > Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept any such fluctuations without > explicit notification from the NEMO network. Are these assumptions > acceptable? If not, then extensions to current AAA mechanisms might be > needed. I remember one of the requirements for basic support is "routing(binding) management operation must be transparent to MNN". According to this, it is preferable that NEMO isp network does not change its billing policy, either when the billing policy of access network of MR changes, but, that may be what NEMO isp decides. I think AAA mechanism should be able to have the scheme that is capable of change of billing policy at anytime with/without letting MNN know. Regards, Takeshi From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Wed Feb 12 23:34:35 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA24064 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D4a1R14959; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:36:01 +0100 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (seraph3.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D4EKR14866 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 05:14:20 +0100 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCBE6BA07 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.35]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC 8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1D4EAsW008186; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from GR7700006462.grc.nasa.gov (vtcp12.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.245.22]) by apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (8.8.8+Sun/2.20-grc) id XAA11299; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:14:09 -0500 (EST) X-Info: ODIN / NASA Glenn Research Center Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20030212231009.02498d10@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: caivanc@popserve.grc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 To: Alper Yegin From: William D Ivancic Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO Cc: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:14:02 -0500 At 05:40 PM 2/12/2003 -0800, Alper Yegin wrote: >Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO >interaction. Please provide comments.... > > From network access authentication and authorization perspective, >a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the >its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the >MNN and the NEMO..... So, the MNNs can assume >that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. >Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept any such fluctuations without >explicit notification from the NEMO network. Are these assumptions >acceptable? I believe such assumptions are acceptable. I also believe that many and perhaps most NEMOs will be mobile networks that are part of corporate intranets. Thus, they will very likely be force back through the corporate firewall. ======================================= Will Ivancic NASA Glenn Research Center 21000 Brookpark Road MS 54-5 Cleveland, Ohio 44135 Phone +1 (216)433-3494 Fax +1 (216) 433-8705 Yahoo Instant Messenger ID: ivancic http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 00:53:19 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA25265 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 00:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D5u3R15448; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:56:03 +0100 Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D5tiR15438 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:55:44 +0100 Received: from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h1D5tdET003485; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:55:40 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id WAA23533; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:54:18 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr04) with ESMTP id h1D5qP608294; Wed, 12 Feb 2003 23:52:26 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (t_il06_r_port7.corp.mot.com [129.188.171.28]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6EA62EC86; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 06:52:21 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4B407E.2080907@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 07:51:42 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alper Yegin wrote: > In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment > hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with > the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when the MR > moves around. Also, there's no need for MNN to re-do auth/authz when MNN moves inside the same mobile network, of the same MR, right? -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 03:57:08 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA07385 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D8p5R16383; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:51:05 +0100 Received: from shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.130]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D8oBR16373 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 09:50:11 +0100 Received: from localhost (wanwan.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.131]) by shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641785D01D for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:50:02 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20030213.175002.56678941.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com From: Thierry Ernst X-Mailer: Mew version 2.2 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:50:02 +0900 (JST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, Before it shows on the IETF web site, you can get on the NEMO additional web page the IETF NEMO WG requirement draft I promised you a while ago: http://www.nal.motlabs.com/nemo/drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-requirements.txt This is a combination of the requirements drafts, and you are now able to point out missing items and comment on it. Thierry. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 04:26:54 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA07870 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 04:26:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D9S2R17016; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:28:02 +0100 Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D9RVR17006 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:27:31 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h1D9RTET023586 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:27:30 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id CAA16340 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:27:29 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr03) with ESMTP id h1D9RLA08461 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:27:21 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F642EC86 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:27:25 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4B64FD.4F405B94@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:27:25 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, About AAA... Takeshi TANAKA wrote: > On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:40:16 -0800 > Alper Yegin wrote : > > From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > > a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the > > its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the > > MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent > > from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this > > requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should > > not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. > > Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require > > auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the > > Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, > > PANA, 802.1x, etc.) > I agree. I agree too... Just as a side comment I would like to note that, in the general case where the NEMO does not host its own internal AAA infrastucture (i.e. AAA server), auth/authz for VMN entering the NEMO will require signalling to "cross the Internet" two times (NEMO at its current location -> NEMO's Home AAA server -> VMN's Home AAA server) due to the NEMO's current location potentially far from its Home network. This is a different with a regular mobile IP node where the internet will generally be crossed only once. Similarly, if the VMN moves within the NEMO from one AR1 to AR2, re-auth/re-authz at the new AR2 may takes more time if the NEMO's home AAA server is to be contacted... So AAA performance in the NEMO case may be worse than for the simple Mobile-IP case... > > A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that > > MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the > > MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the MNNs can assume > > that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. I think this chaging or not the charging of VMN is a policy decision to be taken by the NEMO (MR). In scenarios where the NEMO (serving as ISP to VMN) is expected to pay more to maintain it connection to the infrastucture it may want to charge VMN a bit more... So I think AAA mechanisms should be able to address re-negociation of charging...to be triggered by the NEMO. Is this a new NEMO-specific requirement? Is this already supported by AAA? Of course, there will be other NEMO scenarios where billing will not be considered (I hope:) Thanks Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 13:32:15 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA21201 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DIISR20986; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:18:28 +0100 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1D9DYR16876 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:13:35 +0100 Received: from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h1D9DWMj020537 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:13:33 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id CAA06458 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 02:12:11 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr04) with ESMTP id h1D9DR614205; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 03:13:27 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D902EC86; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:13:24 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4B61B4.630682E4@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Takeshi TANAKA Cc: Alper Yegin, IETF NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: <20030213121647.BD4B.TAKESHI.TANAKA@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:13:24 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, About AAA... Takeshi TANAKA wrote: > On Wed, 12 Feb 2003 17:40:16 -0800 > Alper Yegin wrote : > > From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > > a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the > > its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the > > MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent > > from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this > > requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should > > not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. > > Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require > > auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the > > Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, > > PANA, 802.1x, etc.) > I agree. I agree too... Just as a side comment I would like to note that, in the general case where the NEMO does not host its own internal AAA infrastucture (i.e. AAA server), auth/authz for VMN entering the NEMO will require signalling to "cross the Internet" two times (NEMO at its current location -> NEMO's Home AAA server -> VMN's Home AAA server) due to the NEMO's current location potentially far from its Home network. This is a different with a regular mobile IP node where the internet will generally be crossed only once. Similarly, if the VMN moves within the NEMO from one AR1 to AR2, re-auth/re-authz at the new AR2 may takes more time if the NEMO's home AAA server is to be contacted... So AAA performance in the NEMO case may be worse than for the simple Mobile-IP case... > > A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that > > MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the > > MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the MNNs can assume > > that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. I think this chaging or not the charging of VMN is a policy decision to be taken by the NEMO (MR). In scenarios where the NEMO (serving as ISP to VMN) is expected to pay more to maintain it connection to the infrastucture it may want to charge VMN a bit more... So I think AAA mechanisms should be able to address re-negociation of charging...to be triggered by the NEMO. Is this a new NEMO-specific requirement? Is this already supported by AAA? Of course, there will be other NEMO scenarios where billing will not be considered (I hope:) Thanks Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 14:34:29 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23049 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DJR3R21393; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:27:03 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DJQbR21383; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:26:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO From: Alper Yegin To: Alexandru Petrescu CC: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E4B407E.2080907@nal.motlabs.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:26:08 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alexandru, > Alper Yegin wrote: >> In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment >> hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with >> the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when the MR >> moves around. > > Also, there's no need for MNN to re-do auth/authz when MNN moves > inside the same mobile network, of the same MR, right? No, actually most probably it'd need that. In an environment where auth/authz is required for basic network access, it should take place each time MNN changes its point of attachment. Maybe a subsequent auth/authz in the same NEMO might take a different form (i.e., some optimizations are possible). But not requiring auth/authz from a MNN that claims it was already granted access in another part of the NEMO opens up security holes. alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 14:37:28 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA23150 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DJb2R21462; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:37:02 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DJaPR21452 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:36:26 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO From: Alper Yegin To: Christophe Janneteau , Takeshi TANAKA CC: IETF NEMO Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E4B61B4.630682E4@motorola.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 11:35:53 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Christophe, >>> From network access authentication and authorization perspective, >>> a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the >>> its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the >>> MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent >>> from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this >>> requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should >>> not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. >>> Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require >>> auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the >>> Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, >>> PANA, 802.1x, etc.) >> I agree. > > I agree too... > Just as a side comment I would like to note that, in the general case > where the NEMO does not host its own internal AAA infrastucture (i.e. > AAA server), auth/authz for VMN entering the NEMO will require > signalling to "cross the Internet" two times (NEMO at its current > location -> NEMO's Home AAA server -> VMN's Home AAA server) due to the > NEMO's current location potentially far from its Home network. This is a > different with a regular mobile IP node where the internet will > generally be crossed only once. If the NEMO wants to authenticate the VMN, I'm not sure why the AAA traffic needs to go through NEMO's Home AAA server. It can directly go to VMN's Home AAA server. Maybe the accounting records are collected at the NEMO's Home AAA server at the end of the day, but this shouldn't be per VMN authentication. > > Similarly, if the VMN moves within the NEMO from one AR1 to AR2, > re-auth/re-authz at the new AR2 may takes more time if the NEMO's home > AAA server is to be contacted... > > So AAA performance in the NEMO case may be worse than for the simple > Mobile-IP case... > >>> A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that >>> MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the >>> MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the MNNs can assume >>> that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. > > I think this chaging or not the charging of VMN is a policy decision to > be taken by the NEMO (MR). In scenarios where the NEMO (serving as ISP > to VMN) is expected to pay more to maintain it connection to the > infrastucture it may want to charge VMN a bit more... > So I think AAA mechanisms should be able to address re-negociation of > charging...to be triggered by the NEMO. Is this a new NEMO-specific > requirement? Is this already supported by AAA? I'm afraid this might boil down to the NEMO initiating a new auth/authz with the new charging parameters with every one of the MNNs... :( This might not require a AAA backend interaction, as NEMO already trust the MNN. So, some local-trust that was established after the latest (or initial) auth/authz can be utilized. > > Of course, there will be other NEMO scenarios where billing will not be > considered (I hope:) And even auth/authz. E.g.: public (free) networks... NEMO should work there too :) alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 15:50:06 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29447 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DKh2R21933; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:43:02 +0100 Received: from penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.47]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DKgvR21923 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:42:57 +0100 Received: from esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se (esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.254.69]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id h1DKgpAv017347; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:42:51 +0100 (MET) Received: by esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <1X36FXX0>; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:42:51 +0100 Message-ID: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5BF@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> From: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" To: "'Alper Yegin'" , nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: RE: [nemo] AAA and NEMO MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:42:49 +0100 Agreed. Hesham > -----Original Message----- > From: Alper Yegin [mailto:alper@docomolabs-usa.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 2:40 AM > To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com > Subject: [nemo] AAA and NEMO > > > Hello, > > Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO > interaction. Please provide comments.... > > From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between > the MR and the > its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the > MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent > from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any > time, and this > requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. > But this should > not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached > to the network. > Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not > necessarily require > auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the > Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs > (Radius, Diameter, > PANA, 802.1x, etc.) > > In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment > hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with > the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when the MR > moves around. How does accounting get affected by this? > > A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that > MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed > down to the > MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the > MNNs can assume > that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. > Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept any such > fluctuations without > explicit notification from the NEMO network. Are these assumptions > acceptable? If not, then extensions to current AAA > mechanisms might be > needed. > > Thoughts? > > alper > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 16:10:03 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00560 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:09:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DLA2R22162; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:10:02 +0100 Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DL9WR22148 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:09:33 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h1DL9DSM026510; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:09:13 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id OAA16539; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:09:22 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr02) with ESMTP id h1DL9Fi17384; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:09:16 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (t-il01-p-port5.corp.mot.com [199.5.169.55]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A176F2EC86; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:09:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4C175F.2060805@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" Cc: "'Alper Yegin'", Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5BF@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5BF@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:08:31 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hesham Soliman (EAB) wrote: > Agreed. What do you agree with Hesham :-) ? >> Hello, >> >> Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO >> interaction. Please provide comments.... >> >> From network access authentication and authorization perspective, >> a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the >> MR and the its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is >> between the MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and >> independent from each other. MR can change its point of >> attachment any time, and this requires new authentication and >> authorization for the MR. But this should not require new >> auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. >> Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily >> require auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of >> atttachment to the Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve >> the needs (Radius, Diameter, PANA, 802.1x, etc.) >> >> In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment >> hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with >> the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when >> the MR moves around. How does accounting get affected by this? >> >> A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that MR is >> subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the >> MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the >> MNNs can assume that the billing parameters stay fixed between >> subsequent auth/authz. Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept >> any such fluctuations without explicit notification from the NEMO >> network. Are these assumptions acceptable? If not, then >> extensions to current AAA mechanisms might be needed. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> alper >> From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 16:16:29 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01251 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DLD2R22189; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:13:02 +0100 Received: from albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.49]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DLCUR22179; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:12:32 +0100 Received: from esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se (esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.254.69]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id h1DLCHKV021466; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:12:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <1X36F50C>; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:12:17 +0100 Message-ID: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5C4@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> From: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" To: "'Alexandru Petrescu'" Cc: "'Alper Yegin'" , nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: RE: [nemo] AAA and NEMO MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:12:13 +0100 > Hesham Soliman (EAB) wrote: > > Agreed. > > What do you agree with Hesham :-) ? => What did it look like ?? :) I agree with the contents of Alper's email. Hesham > > >> Hello, > >> > >> Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO > >> interaction. Please provide comments.... > >> > >> From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > >> a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the > >> MR and the its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is > >> between the MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and > >> independent from each other. MR can change its point of > >> attachment any time, and this requires new authentication and > >> authorization for the MR. But this should not require new > >> auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. > >> Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily > >> require auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of > >> atttachment to the Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve > >> the needs (Radius, Diameter, PANA, 802.1x, etc.) > >> > >> In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment > >> hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with > >> the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when > >> the MR moves around. How does accounting get affected by this? > >> > >> A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that MR is > >> subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the > >> MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the > >> MNNs can assume that the billing parameters stay fixed between > >> subsequent auth/authz. Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept > >> any such fluctuations without explicit notification from the NEMO > >> network. Are these assumptions acceptable? If not, then > >> extensions to current AAA mechanisms might be needed. > >> > >> Thoughts? > >> > >> alper > >> > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 16:19:51 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01904 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DLJ2R22226; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:19:02 +0100 Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DLIXR22216 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:18:34 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h1DLJ25d002308 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:19:04 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr03.mot.com (il06exr03.mot.com [129.188.137.133]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id OAA20291 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:18:20 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr03.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr03) with ESMTP id h1DLIBA01373; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:18:11 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (t-il01-p-port5.corp.mot.com [199.5.169.55]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788D32EC86; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:18:13 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4C197A.2020604@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:17:30 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alper Yegin wrote: > Hi Alexandru, >> Alper Yegin wrote: >> >>> In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment >>> hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But >>> with the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs >>> when the MR moves around. >> >> Also, there's no need for MNN to re-do auth/authz when MNN moves >> inside the same mobile network, of the same MR, right? > > No, actually most probably it'd need that. In an environment where > auth/authz is required for basic network access, it should take > place each time MNN changes its point of attachment. Maybe a > subsequent auth/authz in the same NEMO might take a different form > (i.e., some optimizations are possible). But not requiring > auth/authz from MNN that claims it was already granted access in > another part of the NEMO opens up security holes. Yes, exactly, that was more like an optimization issue. MNN would basically do auth/authz requests each time it changes its attachment point to avoid security risks. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 16:26:02 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA03031 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DLL1R22255; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:21:01 +0100 Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DLK2R22243; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:20:04 +0100 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h1DLJiET010492; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:19:44 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id OAA25521; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 14:19:44 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr02) with ESMTP id h1DLJbi23983; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:19:37 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (t-il01-p-port5.corp.mot.com [199.5.169.55]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 272712EC86; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:19:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4C19CD.6040200@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" Cc: "'Alexandru Petrescu'", "'Alper Yegin'", Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5C4@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5C4@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:18:53 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hesham Soliman (EAB) wrote: > > Hesham Soliman (EAB) wrote: > > > Agreed. > > > > What do you agree with Hesham :-) ? > > => What did it look like ?? :) > I agree with the contents of Alper's email. Me too :-) From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 17:57:04 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA16910 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DMq4R22976; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:52:04 +0100 Received: from ALPHA8.ITS.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha8.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.8]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DMpCR22946; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 23:51:12 +0100 Received: from kapow.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.71]) by vaxh.its.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.2-31 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KSF9Q2463I95ZHZ7@vaxh.its.monash.edu.au>; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:50:38 +1100 Received: from kapow.its.monash.edu.au (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404E02000D; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:50:37 +1100 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (knuth.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.110]) by kapow.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9B620006; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:50:32 +1100 (EST) From: Greg Daley Subject: OT: IETF and `me Too's (was Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO) To: Alexandru Petrescu Cc: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" , "'Alper Yegin'" , nemo@nal.motlabs.com Reply-to: greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au Message-id: <3E4C2138.1070605@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020529 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us References: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5C4@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> <3E4C19CD.6040200@nal.motlabs.com> Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:50:32 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'd like to say that there's no place in IETF for Me too's ! ;-P Greg Alexandru Petrescu wrote: > Hesham Soliman (EAB) wrote: > >> > Hesham Soliman (EAB) wrote: >> > > Agreed. >> > > What do you agree with Hesham :-) ? >> >> => What did it look like ?? :) >> I agree with the contents of Alper's email. > > > Me too :-) > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 18:56:06 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21247 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 18:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DNw2R23627; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:58:02 +0100 Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1DNvuR23617 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:57:56 +0100 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h1DNvrET022379; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:57:53 -0700 (MST) Received: [from az33exr01.mot.com (az33exr01.mot.com [10.64.251.231]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id QAA24034; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:57:52 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by az33exr01.mot.com (8.11.6/az33exr01) with ESMTP id h1DNvnJ23752; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 17:57:49 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (t-il06-z-port5.corp.mot.com [129.188.170.155]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715B62EC86; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 00:57:44 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4C3EDC.3010404@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:57:00 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alper Yegin wrote: > Hello, > > Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO > interaction. Please provide comments.... Here's a short remark, thank you for starting this up. > From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the > its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the > MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent > from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this > requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should > not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. > Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require > auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the > Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, > PANA, 802.1x, etc.) This picture looks very right. If it could fit in the "nested" cases, it would be even better, in case that the "nested mobile networks" requirement still has validity. For example, consider one mobile network 1 attaching to fixed access system. Then mobile network 2 attaches to mobile network 1. Then MNN attaches to mobile network 2. Consider at this point that everything is authenticated/authzed to everything. Now, if the mobile network 1 changes its attachment point (but mobile network 2 doesn't), will the MNN get informed about this? When mobile network 1 does its new auth/authz scheme, will it declare it has the visit of the MNN which is deep beneath it? Will the MNN be aware of this movement of the top mobile network 1? (I mean aware in terms of auth/authz.) Maybe I don't have a clear picture about how this could work, but maybe you have. Again, I am in total agreement of the above paragraph where you describe the two types of auth/authz (inside and outside). I even suggest we have that paragraph somewhere in the requirements, if possible. -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 19:33:39 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA24441 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E0Z3R23911; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:35:03 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E0YXR23897; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:34:33 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO From: Alper Yegin To: Alexandru Petrescu CC: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E4C3EDC.3010404@nal.motlabs.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:34:15 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For example, consider one mobile network 1 attaching to fixed access > system. Then mobile network 2 attaches to mobile network 1. Then MNN > attaches to mobile network 2. Consider at this point that everything > is authenticated/authzed to everything. > > Now, if the mobile network 1 changes its attachment point (but mobile > network 2 doesn't), will the MNN get informed about this? (putting the billing issue aside) I don't think MNN needs to get informed about this. MNN gets its service from network2, and it should not care where network2 or anyone up the chain gets their access service from. But of course MNN should have sufficient trust in the network1 that it won't drag MNN into unsecure corners of the Internet. And, this is like the fixed ISP case. If your local ISP changes its backbone ISP, it doesn't notify you. > When mobile > network 1 does its new auth/authz scheme, will it declare it has the > visit of the MNN which is deep beneath it? With the similar reasoning, I don't think so. > Will the MNN be aware of > this movement of the top mobile network 1? (I mean aware in terms of > auth/authz.) > > Maybe I don't have a clear picture about how this could work, but > maybe you have. Again, I am in total agreement of the above paragraph > where you describe the two types of auth/authz (inside and outside). > I even suggest we have that paragraph somewhere in the requirements, > if possible. So, to recap: This "transparency" is a good thing. But the problem is, it hides possible billing parameter changes that are happening up the chain. In the above example, MR of network1 can be made aware of it as part of the new AAA interaction. But either: - MNNs down the chain should be immune to such changes (i.e., fixed rate), or - We'd lose the transparency by introducing some accounting exchange to all MNNs down the chain. And this in general is undesirable but maybe unavoidable. alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 20:55:13 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA25794 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E1u2R24404; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 02:56:03 +0100 Received: from bulls.mei.co.jp (bulls.mei.co.jp [202.224.189.25]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E1tjR24394 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 02:55:45 +0100 Received: by bulls.mei.co.jp (8.12.5/3.7W/jazz) with ESMTP id h1E1tYWR013509; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:55:34 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/somlx3) with ESMTP id h1E1tYY05921; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:55:34 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/bluejays) with ESMTP id h1E1tYD00188; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:55:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from yrpgw1.yrp.mci.mei.co.jp by postman.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.1/3.7Wpl2:mcihub1:03021217) id h1E1tYH28706; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:55:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp by yrpgw1.yrp.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.3/3.7W-GW1) with ESMTP id h1E1tfb11339; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:55:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from [133.183.212.174] by gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-TELECOM) with ESMTP id h1E1tXH08524; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:55:33 +0900 (JST) From: Takeshi TANAKA To: Alper Yegin , IETF NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO In-Reply-To: References: <3E4C3EDC.3010404@nal.motlabs.com> Message-Id: <20030214102050.028A.TAKESHI.TANAKA@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.06 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 10:56:08 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:34:15 -0800 Alper Yegin wrote : > > For example, consider one mobile network 1 attaching to fixed access > > system. Then mobile network 2 attaches to mobile network 1. Then MNN > > attaches to mobile network 2. Consider at this point that everything > > is authenticated/authzed to everything. > > > > Now, if the mobile network 1 changes its attachment point (but mobile > > network 2 doesn't), will the MNN get informed about this? > > (putting the billing issue aside) I don't think MNN needs to get > informed about this. MNN gets its service from network2, > and it should not care where network2 or anyone up the chain gets > their access service from. I agree. And vice versa, network1 cares about auth of network2, and does not care about auth of MNN by network2. > But of course MNN should have sufficient > trust in the network1 that it won't drag MNN into unsecure corners > of the Internet. I think, in some scenario, network1 trusts network2, but does not trust(know well about) MNN in some scenario. i.e. network1 trusts network2, but does not know well about MNN that is trusted by network2. > And, this is like the fixed ISP case. If your local ISP changes its > backbone ISP, it doesn't notify you. > > > > When mobile > > network 1 does its new auth/authz scheme, will it declare it has the > > visit of the MNN which is deep beneath it? > > With the similar reasoning, I don't think so. > > > Will the MNN be aware of > > this movement of the top mobile network 1? (I mean aware in terms of > > auth/authz.) > > > > Maybe I don't have a clear picture about how this could work, but > > maybe you have. Again, I am in total agreement of the above paragraph > > where you describe the two types of auth/authz (inside and outside). > > I even suggest we have that paragraph somewhere in the requirements, > > if possible. > > So, to recap: This "transparency" is a good thing. But the problem is, it > hides possible billing parameter changes that are happening up the chain. > In the above example, MR of network1 can be made aware of it as part > of the new AAA interaction. But either: > - MNNs down the chain should be immune to such changes (i.e., fixed rate), > or > - We'd lose the transparency by introducing some accounting exchange > to all MNNs down the chain. And this in general is undesirable but maybe > unavoidable. I think the latter. But MNN should be notified accounting exchange only from the network MNN attached to. ----------------------------------------------- Takeshi TANAKA R&D center, Corporate Engineering Division, Panasonic Mobile Communications e-mail: Takeshi.Tanaka@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp phone: +81-46-840-5494 / fax: +81-46-840-5222 ----------------------------------------------- From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 21:51:53 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA27439 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E2r4R24926; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:53:04 +0100 Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E2qeR24901 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:52:40 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h1E2rH5d022518; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:53:18 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id TAA07054; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 19:52:36 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr06.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h1E2qWC20677; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 20:52:33 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (t_il01_b_slip12.corp.mot.com [199.2.172.40]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03ADB2EC86; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:52:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4C67D0.90104@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:51:44 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alper Yegin wrote: >> For example, consider one mobile network 1 attaching to fixed >> access system. Then mobile network 2 attaches to mobile network >> 1. Then MNN attaches to mobile network 2. Consider at this >> point that everything is authenticated/authzed to everything. >> >> Now, if the mobile network 1 changes its attachment point (but >> mobile network 2 doesn't), will the MNN get informed about this? > > (putting the billing issue aside) I don't think MNN needs to get > informed about this. MNN gets its service from network2, and it > should not care where network2 or anyone up the chain gets their > access service from. But of course MNN should have sufficient trust > in the network1 that it won't drag MNN into unsecure corners of > the Internet. And, this is like the fixed ISP case. If your local > ISP changes its backbone ISP, it doesn't notify you. Alper, I think I get the main lines of your argumentation, you're right. Just to say that my local ISP changes its backbone ISP yes, and it's invisible to me. But my ISP doesn't do authorization/authntction to the backbone ISP in the first place either, so the similarity to mobile networks is not very clear. -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 13 22:18:52 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA27993 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E3K3R25340; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:20:03 +0100 Received: from shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.130]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E3JaR25317 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:19:37 +0100 Received: from localhost (wanwan.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.131]) by shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4785D0C6; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:19:16 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20030214.121916.128870054.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com Cc: tj@kniveton.com From: Thierry Ernst In-Reply-To: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 X-Mailer: Mew version 2.2 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] Preparing NEMO Agenda - please sent slot request ASAP Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:19:16 +0900 (JST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, The next IETF meeting is approaching. This mailing list has been more than silent over the past months. There is an old IETF tradition (not much discussion on ML between meetings, strong activity a few weeks before, and keeping silent afterwards), and we (NEMO members) have been very respectful in doing it :-). I myself didn't push for discussions since I was due to release the draft. Now that it's done, I'm relieved from this burden. Anyway, sorry for the delay. So, the object of this mail is to ask you if we need a meeting at San Francisco ? I yes, I need to know if anyone of you is planning to contribute drafts or discussion in the following, which are the most urgent, besides the requirements: - threat analysis - solution for basic support - other ? With this respect, may I ask you to send both TJ and myself request for slots ASAP so that we know how much time we should request (subject, time requested, associated draft is any). At present time, we don't see a need for more than a 1-hour meeting. I will make a slot request Tuesday 18th Feb based on the requests received no later than MONDAY MIDNIGHT. Of course, requests will be accepted after this date, but provided we have time left in the requested slot. Thierry. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 03:22:46 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA13427 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E8O5R27272; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:24:05 +0100 Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E8MwR27260; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:22:58 +0100 Received: from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h1E8MrET011271; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:22:53 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id BAA08489; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:21:29 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr02) with ESMTP id h1E8Mji09081; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 02:22:46 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851F42EC86; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:22:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4CA756.812026B4@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin Cc: Alexandru Petrescu, Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:22:46 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Alper Yegin wrote: > > Also, there's no need for MNN to re-do auth/authz when MNN moves > > inside the same mobile network, of the same MR, right? > > No, actually most probably it'd need that. In an environment where > auth/authz is required for basic network access, it should take > place each time MNN changes its point of attachment. Maybe a > subsequent auth/authz in the same NEMO might take a different form (i.e., > some optimizations are possible). But not requiring auth/authz from a > MNN that claims it was already granted access in another part of the NEMO > opens up security holes. I agree. Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 03:53:38 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA13970 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:53:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E8t3R27590; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:55:03 +0100 Received: from ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.60]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1E8sKR27578 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:54:20 +0100 Received: from xbe-ams-313.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1E8q80A017580; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:52:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from xbe-lon-303.cisco.com ([64.103.98.22]) by xbe-ams-313.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4453); Fri, 14 Feb 2003 09:53:50 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [nemo] Some Threats (related to AAA and NEMO) Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [nemo] Some Threats (related to AAA and NEMO) Thread-Index: AcLTzaYzaT8z2jNMSY+fwaLzakSLHAAMBBSA From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "Takeshi TANAKA" , "Alper Yegin" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Feb 2003 08:53:50.0973 (UTC) FILETIME=[984ADAD0:01C2D406] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by jessica.nal.motlabs.com id h1E8sKR27578 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:53:32 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This discussion comes very close to route optimization, and I'd wish to make sure we all agree that for the moment, we've been doing it in the scope of basic Nemo support, and we limit our investigation to that scope for the time being. In that context, , we all seem to agree with Alper's view. The Mobile Router (2) attaches to an Access Router (1). If the AR (1) is also an other MR - making to (1) a Mobile Access Router - so be it, but it has to be transparent to (2). In the same fashion, (2) is a AR for its VMNs, but they must not need to know it is a MR as well. There's a correlated work to be done on threat analysis. You can't just let someone autoconf an address and then AAA (in a PANA fashion), since the visitor would already be in position to attack at ND level. So we may want to look at existing solutions such as 802.1x, Address Based Keys, Crypto Generated Addresses, variations over PPP/PPPoE, etc... to limit or validate the L2 access a MR gives to its visitors. In the same basic Nemo Context, we plan to tunnel home every packet, even the visitor's ones. So we'll have to consider a potential threat not only to the Mobile Network but to the home as well. As William mentioned "I also believe that many and perhaps most NEMOs will be mobile networks that are part of corporate intranets", home may often be a protected environment. In which case MR MUST implement the security policies of the intranet. In other words, this limits the visitors to well nown parties. Finally, there's also a privacy aspect to consider. The global prefix of the Mobile Network could give away the MR identity just like the EUI-64 could give away visitor's identity if he used it (as opposed to RFC 3041 based address). Maybe in some cases we would tolerate to let somene's traffic through, but in an anonymous fashion for both parties (even if a third party AAA knows us both). What do you think.? > -----Original Message----- > From: Takeshi TANAKA [mailto:Takeshi.Tanaka@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp] > Sent: vendredi 14 février 2003 02:56 > To: Alper Yegin; IETF NEMO > Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO > > > > On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:34:15 -0800 > Alper Yegin wrote : > > > > For example, consider one mobile network 1 attaching to > fixed access > > > system. Then mobile network 2 attaches to mobile network > 1. Then > > > MNN attaches to mobile network 2. Consider at this point that > > > everything is authenticated/authzed to everything. > > > > > > Now, if the mobile network 1 changes its attachment point (but > > > mobile network 2 doesn't), will the MNN get informed about this? > > > > (putting the billing issue aside) I don't think MNN needs to get > > informed about this. MNN gets its service from network2, > and it should > > not care where network2 or anyone up the chain gets their access > > service from. > I agree. > And vice versa, network1 cares about auth of network2, and does not > care about auth of MNN by network2. > > > But of course MNN should have sufficient > > trust in the network1 that it won't drag MNN into unsecure > corners of > > the Internet. > I think, in some scenario, network1 trusts network2, but does not > trust(know well about) MNN in some scenario. > i.e. network1 trusts network2, but does not know well about > MNN that is trusted by network2. > > > And, this is like the fixed ISP case. If your local ISP > changes its > > backbone ISP, it doesn't notify you. > > > > > > > When mobile > > > network 1 does its new auth/authz scheme, will it declare > it has the > > > visit of the MNN which is deep beneath it? > > > > With the similar reasoning, I don't think so. > > > > > Will the MNN be aware of > > > this movement of the top mobile network 1? (I mean aware > in terms of > > > auth/authz.) > > > > > > Maybe I don't have a clear picture about how this could work, but > > > maybe you have. Again, I am in total agreement of the above > > > paragraph where you describe the two types of auth/authz > (inside and > > > outside). I even suggest we have that paragraph somewhere in the > > > requirements, if possible. > > > > So, to recap: This "transparency" is a good thing. But the > problem is, > > it hides possible billing parameter changes that are > happening up the > > chain. In the above example, MR of network1 can be made > aware of it as > > part of the new AAA interaction. But either: > > - MNNs down the chain should be immune to such changes (i.e., fixed > > rate), or > > - We'd lose the transparency by introducing some accounting > exchange > > to all MNNs down the chain. And this in general is undesirable but > > maybe unavoidable. > I think the latter. > But MNN should be notified accounting exchange only from the network > MNN attached to. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Takeshi TANAKA > R&D center, Corporate Engineering Division, > Panasonic Mobile Communications > e-mail: Takeshi.Tanaka@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp > phone: +81-46-840-5494 / fax: +81-46-840-5222 > ----------------------------------------------- > > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 05:12:59 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15273 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:12:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EAE2R28383; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:14:03 +0100 Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EADRR28371 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:13:28 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate5.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate5) with ESMTP id h1EADBBu013077 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:13:16 -0700 (MST) Received: [from az33exr04.mot.com (az33exr04.mot.com [10.64.251.234]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id DAA05116 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:13:20 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by az33exr04.mot.com (8.11.6/az33exr04) with ESMTP id h1EAD5d12123; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:13:05 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808862EC95; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:13:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4CC13A.2958F53@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin Cc: Takeshi TANAKA, IETF NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:13:14 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alper, Alper Yegin wrote: > > Just as a side comment I would like to note that, in the general case > > where the NEMO does not host its own internal AAA infrastucture (i.e. > > AAA server), auth/authz for VMN entering the NEMO will require > > signalling to "cross the Internet" two times (NEMO at its current > > location -> NEMO's Home AAA server -> VMN's Home AAA server) due to the > > NEMO's current location potentially far from its Home network. This is a > > different with a regular mobile IP node where the internet will > > generally be crossed only once. > > If the NEMO wants to authenticate the VMN, I'm not sure why the AAA > traffic needs to go through NEMO's Home AAA server. It can directly > go to VMN's Home AAA server. Maybe the accounting records are > collected at the NEMO's Home AAA server at the end of the day, but > this shouldn't be per VMN authentication. In the above I consider the case where the NEMO is an IP subnet owned (in AAA terminology) by the NEMO's Home domain (i.e. NEMO does not have its own internal AAA server). In such a situation the AAA server managing auth/authz for hosts entering the NEMO will generally be located within the NEMO's Home infrastructure. Right? Now when a VMN enters the NEMO (NEMO being either at Home or attached to a Foreign network and maintaining the bi-directionnal tunnel to its HA), it must be auth/authz by the owner of the NEMO's subnet...this implies contacting the NEMO owner's AAA server..in the NEMO's Home infrastucture. This is because the VMN is actually visiting the administrative domain the NEMO belongs to. Of course, the AAA server in NEMO's Home Domain will have to contact the VMN's Home AAA server to complete the auth/authz procedure. This is regular AAA model I think... Does this make sense or am I missing something? Thanks, Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 05:25:29 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA15511 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 05:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EAR2R28479; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:27:02 +0100 Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EAQ9R28469 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:26:10 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h1EAQi5d026452; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:26:44 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr01.mot.com (il06exr01.mot.com [129.188.137.131]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id DAA08569; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 03:26:03 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr01.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr01) with ESMTP id h1EAPv117099; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:25:58 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D9F2EC8B; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:25:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4CC437.F82AA7E7@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Takeshi TANAKA Cc: Alper Yegin, IETF NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: <3E4C3EDC.3010404@nal.motlabs.com> <20030214102050.028A.TAKESHI.TANAKA@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:25:59 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again, Takeshi TANAKA wrote: > > So, to recap: This "transparency" is a good thing. But the problem is, it > > hides possible billing parameter changes that are happening up the chain. > > In the above example, MR of network1 can be made aware of it as part > > of the new AAA interaction. But either: > > - MNNs down the chain should be immune to such changes (i.e., fixed rate), > > or > > - We'd lose the transparency by introducing some accounting exchange > > to all MNNs down the chain. And this in general is undesirable but maybe > > unavoidable. > I think the latter. > But MNN should be notified accounting exchange only from the network > MNN attached to. This is my current understanding... When MR changes its point of attachement and auth-/authz to the new AP its own charging parameters may vary (e.g. pay more for the same resources). In such a case the MR MAY want to propagate this increase of charge towards its VMN. This is a policy issue, and is similar to the case of two ISP: ISP2 connecting through ISP1 and ISP1 increasing its charges. If the MR decides to propagate the change to VMN, this should naturally take place through the Home AAA instrastucure the NEMO subnet belongs to. Thanks Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 06:02:17 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16011 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EB32R29002; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:03:02 +0100 Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EB25R28984 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:02:05 +0100 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate2.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate2) with ESMTP id h1EB2U5d003325; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:02:31 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id EAA06672; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:01:49 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr04) with ESMTP id h1EAwZ626224; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 04:58:36 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82572EC86; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:58:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4CCBD9.989804DC@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Cc: Takeshi TANAKA, Alper Yegin, Subject: Re: [nemo] Some Threats (related to AAA and NEMO) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 11:58:33 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Salut Pascal, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" wrote: > There's a correlated work to be done on threat analysis. You can't just let someone autoconf an address and then AAA (in a PANA fashion), since the visitor would already be in position to attack at ND level. So we may want to look at existing solutions such as 802.1x, Address Based Keys, Crypto Generated Addresses, variations over PPP/PPPoE, etc... to limit or validate the L2 access a MR gives to its visitors. Yes these threads are valid for a NEMO...as for any fixed IP subnets in my understanding. I think these not-NEMO-specific issues are partly addressed in other WGs (e.g. SEND) and proposed approaches should also be applicable when the IP subnet is mobile (NEMO). In my opinion, NEMO WG should focus on thread that are NEMO-specific... > In the same basic Nemo Context, we plan to tunnel home every packet, even the visitor's ones. So we'll have to consider a potential threat not only to the Mobile Network but to the home as well. I agree. Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 07:09:46 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18829 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1ECB7R29663; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:11:07 +0100 Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EBmDR29418 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 12:48:14 +0100 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA16934; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:44:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200302141144.GAA16934@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: nemo@nal.motlabs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [nemo] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:44:23 -0500 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Mobility Working Group of the IETF. Title : Network Mobility Support Requirements Author(s) : T. Ernst Filename : draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2003-2-13 Network mobility arises when an entire network changes its point of attachment to the Internet and thus its reachability in the topology. The mobile network is viewed as a unit and is connected to the global Internet by one or more mobile routers. In contrast with host mobility support which aims at providing continuous Internet connectivity to mobile hosts only, network mobility support is to provide continuous Internet sessions not only to the mobile router connecting the mobile network to the global Internet, but also to nodes behind the mobile router. The purpose of this document is to list the requirements that must be met by network mobility support solutions in IPv6. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-2-13152827.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-2-13152827.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 08:05:18 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA21517 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 08:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1ED63R30279; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:06:03 +0100 Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1ED5eR30269 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:05:41 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate) with ESMTP id h1ED5bET011378 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:05:38 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id GAA19954 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 06:05:37 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr06.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h1ED2PC00727; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 07:02:25 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576762EC86; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:02:23 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E4CE8DE.A16CF9BC@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thierry Ernst Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-00.txt References: <20030213.175002.56678941.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:02:22 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Thierry, Thanks again for the new integrated requirement draft. I think the draft is now in a very good shape, and should include most (if not all) the requirements discussed during the last months. Here are short editorial comments: o p5, 3rd paragraph: reference to Mobile IPv4 and Mobile IPv6 should be updated. [6] and [7] are not part of the reference list! o p7, bullet about "multicast support": I think the last sentence "Group membership is currently gathered by MLD" could be removed since this statement does not add anything to the requirement. In additions no reference to MLD (IPv6) or IGMP (IPv4) are given... Thanks, Christophe Thierry Ernst wrote: > > Dear all, > > Before it shows on the IETF web site, you can get on the NEMO > additional web page the IETF NEMO WG requirement draft I promised you > a while ago: > > http://www.nal.motlabs.com/nemo/drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-requirements.txt > > This is a combination of the requirements drafts, and you are now able > to point out missing items and comment on it. > > Thierry. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 14 16:10:31 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA05107 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1ELB2R01355; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 22:11:03 +0100 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (seraph3.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1EKrSR01247 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 21:53:29 +0100 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDD06B9D8 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.35]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC 8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1EKrJsW015460 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from GR7700006462.grc.nasa.gov (vtcp2-20.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.246.20]) by apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (8.8.8+Sun/2.20-grc) id PAA03728; Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:53:16 -0500 (EST) X-Info: ODIN / NASA Glenn Research Center Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: caivanc@popserve.grc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com From: William D Ivancic In-Reply-To: <20030214.121916.128870054.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7904285==.ALT" Subject: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:53:08 -0500 --=====================_7904285==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've recently been asked to work with the Aeronautical community to provide= =20 input to their Protocol Specifications. The aeronautical community,=20 similar to the Space community, often adds some requirements that then make= =20 it very difficult to use standard IETF protocols. Instead, some=20 changes are required and then you end up with a proprietary protocol. My=20 experience has lead me to believe that these added requirements are often=20 unnecessary and little thought is put into the end cost and complexity. The following statements were taken from a Draft Communiqu=E9 From ATNP/WGB= =20 to AEEC ADN Working Group. I've voice my opinion to various ATNP/WGB=20 groups members regarding what requirements are absolute necessary. I have=20 also pointed out that the Mobile IPv4 mobile networks I've worked with do= =20 not perform policy based routing and that only one preferred route is taken= =20 when two or more attachment points from the mobile to the fixed network are= =20 available. Does anyone see the need for or anticipate implementing policy base=20 routing or allowing data to flow over more than one link? Not only does=20 this seem more complex, but It seems like a security problem as one would=20 be tying multiple ISPs networks togeather or perhaps an ISP with a=20 Corporate network. Is this in the current requirements document? I didn't= =20 think so. If not, should this at least be addressed as something that is=20 currently required, something that will be addressed in future=20 requirements, or something that will not be allowed? For you information, the aeronautical links are currently 8 kbps=20 shared. Also, to the best of my knowledge, the layer-2 radio systems do=20 not support such links. Everybody listens on the same frequencies and only= =20 one VDL (VHF Data Link) radio per aircraft. Full deployment isn't until=20 2010 or so. In addition, Satellite links which may provide the secondary=20 attachment points will probably provide 50 kpbs to 2 Mbps or better data=20 rates from aircraft to ground and perhaps higher from ground to aircraft. Will (Sorry about all the Acronyms, I don't know what each stands for yet) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D Mobile IP Key Issues ATNP/WG B has raised the following four issues regarding the use of mobile= =20 IP for aircraft. Our response is provided after statement of the ATNP/WG B= =20 as extracted from the referenced document: 1. Connectivity to multiple subnets: Comment: =93International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirement is to permit= =20 aircraft to be able to make concurrent use of more than one air/ground=20 datalink according to a policy based routing scheme that determines which=20 datalink is used for each application. The ICAO OPLINK Panel has specified= =20 the requirements for datalink selection using a hierarchical=20 classification. This requirement is necessary when reliance is placed upon= =20 network availability for air safety. It also acts as a means of mitigating= =20 the effects of Denial of Service attacks and can help provide load=20 balancing over limited bandwidth networks. On the other hand, Mobile IP has been designed to permit the use of a=20 single mobile network at any one time with =93make before break=94= transition=20 between mobile networks. It does not permit simultaneous use other than by= =20 duplicating traffic (ref RFC 3220 4.2.3).=94 Response: We understand and agree with the above comment. We also believe that a=20 similar requirement exists in other airborne applications. At this point we= =20 are investigating various options to satisfy ICAO mobility requirements.=20 Some of these options are: q Incorporate IDRP mobility in IP based networks q Provide input to NEMO specifications q Devise an Aviation specific solution Within the last two years Internet Architecture Board (IAB) has actively=20 supported inclusion of aviation industry requirements within the IETF=20 activities. NEtwork MObility (NEMO) Working Group under IETF has been=20 chartered to address the enhanced support for network mobility that would=20 include multiple points of attachment for a mobile network. We believe that= =20 NEMO, with input from the aviation community, will satisfy the ICAO=20 mobility requirements, including concurrent use of more than one air/ground= =20 datalink according to a policy based routing scheme that determines which=20 datalink is used for each application. --=====================_7904285==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've recently been asked to work with the Aeronautical community to provide input to their Protocol Specifications.  The aeronautical community, similar to the Space community, often adds some requirements that then make it very difficult to use  standard IETF protocols.      Instead, some changes are required and then you end up with a proprietary protocol.  My experience has lead me to believe that these added requirements are often unnecessary and little thought is put into the end cost and complexity. 

The following statements were taken from a Draft Communiqu=E9 From ATNP/WGB to AEEC ADN Working Group.  I've voice my opinion to various ATNP/WGB groups members regarding what requirements are absolute necessary. I have also pointed out  that the Mobile IPv4 mobile networks I've worked with do not perform policy based routing and that only one preferred route is taken when two or more attachment points from the mobile to the fixed network are available. 

Does anyone see the need for  or anticipate implementing policy base routing or allowing data to flow over more than one link?  Not only does this seem more complex, but It seems like a security problem as one would be tying multiple ISPs networks togeather or perhaps an ISP with a Corporate network.  Is this in the current requirements document?  I didn't think so.  If not, should this at least be addressed as something that is currently required, something that will be addressed in future requirements, or something that will not be allowed?

For you information,  the aeronautical links are currently 8 kbps shared.  Also, to the best of my knowledge, the layer-2 radio systems do not support such links.  Everybody listens on the same frequencies and only one VDL (VHF Data Link) radio per aircraft.  Full deployment isn't until 2010 or so.  In addition, Satellite links which may provide the secondary attachment points will probably provide 50 kpbs to 2 Mbps or better data rates from aircraft to ground and perhaps higher from ground to aircraft.

Will

(Sorry about all the Acronyms,  I don't know what each stands for yet)
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
Mobile IP Key Issues

ATNP/WG B has raised the following four issues regarding the use of mobile IP for aircraft.  Our response is provided after statement of the ATNP/WG B as extracted from the referenced document:

1. Connectivity to multiple subnets:

Comment:

=93International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirement is to permit aircraft to be able to make concurrent use of more than one air/ground datalink according to a policy based routing scheme that determines which datalink is used for each application. The ICAO OPLINK Panel has specified the requirements for datalink selection using a hierarchical classification. This requirement is necessary when reliance is placed upon network availability for air safety. It also acts as a means of mitigating the effects of Denial of Service attacks and can help provide load balancing over limited bandwidth networks.

On the other hand, Mobile IP has been designed to permit the use of a single mobile network at any one time with =93make before break=94 transitio= n between mobile networks. It does not permit simultaneous use other than by duplicating traffic (ref RFC 3220 4.2.3).=94

Response:

We understand and agree with the above comment. We also believe that a similar requirement exists in other airborne applications. At this point we are investigating various options to satisfy ICAO mobility requirements. Some of these options are:

q       Incorporate IDRP mobility in IP based networks
q       Provide input to NEMO specifications
q       Devise an Aviation specific solution


Within the last two years Internet Architecture Board (IAB) has actively supported inclusion of aviation industry requirements within the IETF activities. NEtwork MObility (NEMO) Working Group under IETF has been chartered to address the enhanced support for network mobility that would include multiple points of attachment for a mobile network. We believe that NEMO, with input from the aviation community, will satisfy the ICAO mobility requirements, including concurrent use of more than one air/ground datalink according to a policy based routing scheme that determines which datalink is used for each application.
--=====================_7904285==.ALT-- From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Sun Feb 16 18:18:58 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00985 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 2003 18:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1GNJ8R24551; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:19:09 +0100 Received: from ALPHA6.ITS.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha6.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.25]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1GNIfR24539 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:18:42 +0100 Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.72]) by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V6.1 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KSJHKL06EU94NUM7@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> for nemo@nal.motlabs.com; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:18:26 +1100 Received: from thwack.its.monash.edu.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6027312C007; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:18:26 +1100 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (knuth.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.110]) by thwack.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id E455612C005; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:18:13 +1100 (EST) From: Greg Daley Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements To: William D Ivancic Cc: nemo@nal.motlabs.com Reply-to: greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au Message-id: <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en, en-us User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020529 References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:18:10 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello Will, Current basic NEMO specifications are aimed at individual hosts not perceiving the link on which their data flows, nor that the link is moving at all. The mobile router or HA may be able to allocate data to individual tunnels MR(Addr1)->HA or MR(Addr2)->HA and allocation of flows to these and the reverse tunnels (from HA->MR) may be able to be established using an integrated QoS signalling scheme (such as RSVP). This is a policy routing issue, which is not solely mobility related. It should be possible though to investigate the effects of movement on resource reservation re/allocation in the case of movement. It may be that the QoS signalling issues are analogous to those in transient networks, or equivalent to host based schemes since the MR is likely to be the gateway for all NEMO traffic, and understands the QoS requirements of the hosts. Anyone have ideas? Greg From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 17 09:28:55 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA22890 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1HEU5R29037; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:30:05 +0100 Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1HEThR29023 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:29:43 +0100 Received: from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by motgate5.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate5) with ESMTP id h1HETGqc028054; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:29:17 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id HAA19464; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 07:27:59 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr06.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h1HEQDC07242; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:26:14 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E2D2EC86; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:26:11 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cc: William D Ivancic, Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:26:11 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Daley wrote: [...] > Anyone have ideas? Hi Greg how are you, ideas plenty. I think that aeronautics requirements are important should be refined and included in the requirements document. It's also that it might be that aeronautics requirements fit very well within the current requirements, but we need to identify that. One could note that requirements from several other fields have been suggested until now, and they are not yet reflected in the requirements draft. For example, aeronautics, MESA and automotive types of requirements have been suggested until now. I guess we could try to see if they could be refined and integrated together in the requirements document. That is also to say that currently the draft mentions ITS (Intelligent Transportation System) in paragraph two of section 1. What is ITS? Does ITS consider usage of IP technologies? Is there a "competitor" to ITS? -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 17 17:05:02 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02655 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1HM64R30581; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:06:05 +0100 Received: from ALPHA8.ITS.MONASH.EDU.AU (alpha8.its.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.8]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1HM5lR30571; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:05:48 +0100 Received: from kapow.its.monash.edu.au ([130.194.1.71]) by vaxh.its.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.2-31 #39306) with ESMTP id <01KSKTA2GYQ49BVJ0S@vaxh.its.monash.edu.au>; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:04:21 +1100 Received: from kapow.its.monash.edu.au (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A962000C; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:04:21 +1100 (EST) Received: from eng.monash.edu.au (knuth.eng.monash.edu.au [130.194.252.110]) by kapow.its.monash.edu.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AAA20009; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:03:51 +1100 (EST) From: Greg Daley Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements To: Alexandru Petrescu Cc: William D Ivancic , nemo@nal.motlabs.com Reply-to: greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au Message-id: <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> Organization: Monash University MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020529 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:03:49 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Alex, ITS is a way of using computation systems to provide information about vehicular traffic flow, origin-destination path statistics and monitoring of unusual/emergency traffic events. I think that ITS is a broad field, rather than a specific technology. ITS can rely on many different technologies: for example, inductive loop instrumentation embedded in road surfaces and visual recognition techniques. I know of some projects in france which have been using GSM systems as instrumentation for determining speeds and volumes of user flows. Similar analogies may be made with IP networks. If we have a list of interested parties/documents, should we approach a group/groups requirements doc, maybe a bit similar to the 3GPP-IPv6wg reqs? Should this be accounted for in the base reqs? I'm inclined to believe that the reqs should not be combined with the basic NEMO reqs, since we're not sure that the application areas will all be covered with basic NEMO (low-latency communications for example). Greg Alexandru Petrescu wrote: > Greg Daley wrote: > [...] > >> Anyone have ideas? > > > Hi Greg how are you, ideas plenty. > > I think that aeronautics requirements are important should be refined > and included in the requirements document. It's also that it might be > that aeronautics requirements fit very well within the current > requirements, but we need to identify that. > > One could note that requirements from several other fields have been > suggested until now, and they are not yet reflected in the > requirements draft. > > For example, aeronautics, MESA and automotive types of requirements > have been suggested until now. I guess we could try to see if they > could be refined and integrated together in the requirements document. > > That is also to say that currently the draft mentions ITS (Intelligent > Transportation System) in paragraph two of section 1. What is ITS? > Does ITS consider usage of IP technologies? Is there a "competitor" > to ITS? > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 17 20:47:50 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05910 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1I1m4R31260; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:48:05 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1I1lgR31246 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:47:42 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] Some Threats (related to AAA and NEMO) From: Alper Yegin To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Takeshi TANAKA CC: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by jessica.nal.motlabs.com id h1I1lgR31246 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:35:30 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > There's a correlated work to be done on threat analysis. You can't just let > someone autoconf an address and then AAA (in a PANA fashion), since the > visitor would already be in position to attack at ND level. Currently we are planning to design PANA so that it can even operate using unspecified IP address on the client side, hence attacks based on ND should not be an issue. > So we may want to > look at existing solutions such as 802.1x, Address Based Keys, Crypto > Generated Addresses, variations over PPP/PPPoE, etc... to limit or validate > the L2 access a MR gives to its visitors. I think this requires same amount of work as simple node accessing the network: initial client authentication (e.g.:PPP, 802.1x, PANA); per-packet authentication, integrity and replay protection (e.g.: secure phy, L2 ciphers where available, IPsec otherwise), ND security (i.e., SEND). > > In the same basic Nemo Context, we plan to tunnel home every packet, even the > visitor's ones. So we'll have to consider a potential threat not only to the > Mobile Network but to the home as well. This is a good point. This is like a VPN. > > As William mentioned "I also believe that many and perhaps most NEMOs will be > mobile networks that are part of corporate intranets", home may often be a > protected environment. In which case MR MUST implement the security policies > of the intranet. In other words, this limits the visitors to well nown > parties. > > Finally, there's also a privacy aspect to consider. The global prefix of the > Mobile Network could give away the MR identity just like the EUI-64 could give > away visitor's identity if he used it (as opposed to RFC 3041 based address). > Maybe in some cases we would tolerate to let somene's traffic through, but in > an anonymous fashion for both parties (even if a third party AAA knows us > both). The global prefix of MR will be from the home network of NEMO. I am missing how this might result in privacy issues... alper > > What do you think.? > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Takeshi TANAKA [mailto:Takeshi.Tanaka@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp] >> Sent: vendredi 14 février 2003 02:56 >> To: Alper Yegin; IETF NEMO >> Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO >> >> >> >> On Thu, 13 Feb 2003 16:34:15 -0800 >> Alper Yegin wrote : >> >>>> For example, consider one mobile network 1 attaching to >> fixed access >>>> system. Then mobile network 2 attaches to mobile network >> 1. Then >>>> MNN attaches to mobile network 2. Consider at this point that >>>> everything is authenticated/authzed to everything. >>>> >>>> Now, if the mobile network 1 changes its attachment point (but >>>> mobile network 2 doesn't), will the MNN get informed about this? >>> >>> (putting the billing issue aside) I don't think MNN needs to get >>> informed about this. MNN gets its service from network2, >> and it should >>> not care where network2 or anyone up the chain gets their access >>> service from. >> I agree. >> And vice versa, network1 cares about auth of network2, and does not >> care about auth of MNN by network2. >> >>> But of course MNN should have sufficient >>> trust in the network1 that it won't drag MNN into unsecure >> corners of >>> the Internet. >> I think, in some scenario, network1 trusts network2, but does not >> trust(know well about) MNN in some scenario. >> i.e. network1 trusts network2, but does not know well about >> MNN that is trusted by network2. >> >>> And, this is like the fixed ISP case. If your local ISP >> changes its >>> backbone ISP, it doesn't notify you. >>> >>> >>>> When mobile >>>> network 1 does its new auth/authz scheme, will it declare >> it has the >>>> visit of the MNN which is deep beneath it? >>> >>> With the similar reasoning, I don't think so. >>> >>>> Will the MNN be aware of >>>> this movement of the top mobile network 1? (I mean aware >> in terms of >>>> auth/authz.) >>>> >>>> Maybe I don't have a clear picture about how this could work, but >>>> maybe you have. Again, I am in total agreement of the above >>>> paragraph where you describe the two types of auth/authz >> (inside and >>>> outside). I even suggest we have that paragraph somewhere in the >>>> requirements, if possible. >>> >>> So, to recap: This "transparency" is a good thing. But the >> problem is, >>> it hides possible billing parameter changes that are >> happening up the >>> chain. In the above example, MR of network1 can be made >> aware of it as >>> part of the new AAA interaction. But either: >>> - MNNs down the chain should be immune to such changes (i.e., fixed >>> rate), or >>> - We'd lose the transparency by introducing some accounting >> exchange >>> to all MNNs down the chain. And this in general is undesirable but >>> maybe unavoidable. >> I think the latter. >> But MNN should be notified accounting exchange only from the network >> MNN attached to. >> >> ----------------------------------------------- >> Takeshi TANAKA >> R&D center, Corporate Engineering Division, >> Panasonic Mobile Communications >> e-mail: Takeshi.Tanaka@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp >> phone: +81-46-840-5494 / fax: +81-46-840-5222 >> ----------------------------------------------- >> >> > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 17 20:49:54 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05943 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 20:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1I1oxR31283; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:50:59 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1I1lhR31250 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 02:47:43 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO From: Alper Yegin To: Christophe Janneteau CC: Takeshi TANAKA , IETF NEMO Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E4CC13A.2958F53@motorola.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:19:03 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Christophe, > In the above I consider the case where the NEMO is an IP subnet owned > (in AAA terminology) by the NEMO's Home domain > (i.e. NEMO does not have its own internal AAA server). right. But it has to have AAA client (in its Network Access Servers), and it may have some AAA agents (relay or redirect agents). These AAA agents can help forward the AAA traffic to right AAA server. > In such a situation the AAA server > managing auth/authz for hosts entering the NEMO will generally be > located within the NEMO's Home infrastructure. Right? > Now when a VMN enters the NEMO (NEMO being either at Home or attached to > a Foreign network and maintaining the bi-directionnal tunnel to its HA), > it must be auth/authz by the owner of the NEMO's subnet...this implies > contacting the NEMO owner's AAA server..in the NEMO's Home > infrastucture. This is because the VMN is actually visiting the > administrative domain the NEMO belongs to. Of course, the AAA server in > NEMO's Home Domain will have to contact the VMN's Home AAA server to > complete the auth/authz procedure. This is regular AAA model I think... > Does this make sense or am I missing something? The AAA agents in the NEMO can help the AAA traffic be directed to the VMN's AAA server without going through NEMO's home AAA server. alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 17 22:05:31 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07341 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1I335R31594; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 04:03:06 +0100 Received: from bulls.mei.co.jp (bulls.mei.co.jp [202.224.189.25]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1I32tR31584 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 04:02:55 +0100 Received: by bulls.mei.co.jp (8.12.5/3.7W/bulls) with ESMTP id h1I32bhJ000454; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:02:37 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id h1I32eO02245; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:02:40 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/redsox) with ESMTP id h1I32cl17590; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:02:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from yrpgw1.yrp.mci.mei.co.jp by postman.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.1/3.7Wpl2:mcihub1:03021718) id h1I32bD07133; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:02:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp by yrpgw1.yrp.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.3/3.7W-GW1) with ESMTP id h1I32kL11496; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:02:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from [133.183.212.174] by gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7W-TELECOM) with ESMTP id h1I32aH05832; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:02:36 +0900 (JST) From: Takeshi TANAKA To: Alper Yegin , IETF NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO In-Reply-To: References: <3E4CC13A.2958F53@motorola.com> Message-Id: <20030218113542.FC86.TAKESHI.TANAKA@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.06 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:03:15 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alper, On Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:19:03 -0800 Alper Yegin wrote : > Hi Christophe, > > > In the above I consider the case where the NEMO is an IP subnet owned > > (in AAA terminology) by the NEMO's Home domain > > > (i.e. NEMO does not have its own internal AAA server). > right. But it has to have AAA client (in its Network Access Servers), > and it may have some AAA agents (relay or redirect agents). > These AAA agents can help forward the AAA traffic to right AAA server. > > > In such a situation the AAA server > > managing auth/authz for hosts entering the NEMO will generally be > > located within the NEMO's Home infrastructure. Right? > > Now when a VMN enters the NEMO (NEMO being either at Home or attached to > > a Foreign network and maintaining the bi-directionnal tunnel to its HA), > > it must be auth/authz by the owner of the NEMO's subnet...this implies > > contacting the NEMO owner's AAA server..in the NEMO's Home > > infrastucture. This is because the VMN is actually visiting the > > administrative domain the NEMO belongs to. Of course, the AAA server in > > NEMO's Home Domain will have to contact the VMN's Home AAA server to > > complete the auth/authz procedure. This is regular AAA model I think... > > Does this make sense or am I missing something? > > The AAA agents in the NEMO can help the AAA traffic be directed to the > VMN's AAA server without going through NEMO's home AAA server. I think it depends on AAA policy of AAA agent on the NEMO. AAA traffic from the AAA agent(should be AAA client) on the NEMO will be directed to the VMN's AAA server if the agent has policy to proxy it to VMN's AAA server. The traffic from the agent will go through NEMO's home AAA server if the agent has AAA policy only with NEMO's home AAA server and NEMO's home AAA server has AAA policy to proxy it to VMN's AAA server. But I think the AAA agent on the NEMO has to process AAA traffic in the same way as while the NEMO is at home. > > alper > Regards, Takeshi From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 06:25:49 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25403 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 06:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IBNLR03405; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:23:21 +0100 Received: from penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.47]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IBMOR03395 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:22:25 +0100 Received: from esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se (esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.254.69]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id h1IBM6Aw026116 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:22:15 +0100 (MET) Received: by esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:22:06 +0100 Message-ID: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5F0@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> From: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [nemo] comments on requirements draft Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:21:59 +0100 Hi Thierry/all, Some comments on the requirements draft. Apologies if any othis was already discussed. Technical --------- Section 4: Performance transparency. Perhaps it's better to describe the seamlessness requirement in relative terms to MIP. I.e. the mobility will be as seamless as MIP can make it. Because after all MIPv6 (without optimisations) will not be seamless at all and we don't want to be responsible for that in nemo. Network mobility transparency. Shouldn't the 'should' in the last line be a 'must'? Scalability. I'm not sure I get this requirement, is this measurable? Backward compatibility. I don't mind having this solution work with FMIPv6 (perhaps you should expand this term or write it as a reference) but I think we might get basic support before FMIPv6! On R12: the draft does not mention any requirements on access selection by the MR in the case where the mobile network is multihomed. There are two cases I can think of: 1. The MR decides (unilaterally) to forward some flows on one interface and others on a different one. This is particularly possible when there is only one MR with multiple interfaces. 2. Some exchange of information between the MR and nemo-aware MNNs results in a preferred interface for certain flows originating from certain MNNs. So what is the requirement?` something like: "The solution should allow nemo-aware MNNs to request that certain flows be forwarded on certain interfaces and provide some recommendations that allow MRs to select the right interface(s) for other MNNs." On R15: Is this really needed? I would think that we want the solution to be transparent to the routing infrastructure on the home and visited links. But this requirement is mandating running routing protocols over the tunnel. I'm not sure that the requirements draft should get into the specifics of the solution space. It already does with the bidirectional tunnel but this is a high level direction and is in the charter. Editorial --------- - You might want to reference the terminology draft before the introduction since you already use terms like MR/MNNs in the intro - In many places you mention the 'IP layer level'. I think that 'level' is superfluous. - Remove '...' from R10. - Any reason why R13.3's keyword is not upper case? Also shouldn't R13.X be R12.X (like the way R14 is done)? From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 11:09:18 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA00933 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:09:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IGA6R04621; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:10:06 +0100 Received: from motgate3.mot.com (motgate3.mot.com [144.189.100.103]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IG9pR04607; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:09:51 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate3.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate3) with ESMTP id h1IG9KSM003147; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:09:25 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id JAA02262; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 09:09:32 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr02) with ESMTP id h1IG9Oi20687; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:09:25 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E776D2EC86; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:09:25 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E525AB6.1070908@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cc: Alexandru Petrescu, William D Ivancic, Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:09:26 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Daley wrote: > I think that ITS is a broad field, rather than a specific > technology. ITS can rely on many different technologies: for > example, inductive loop instrumentation embedded in road surfaces > and visual recognition techniques. Aha, I see what you mean. When I'm asking about ITS using IP technologies is exactly for that kind of communication. For example, is ITS going to assign an IP address to the bumper of your car, another IP address to my bumper and run an UDP application on your bumper that sends the distance to my bumper (the distance as seen by your bumper). Then a sort of election takes place and both my bumper and your bumper decide we're too close, so your car accelerates, my car de-celerates. A similar thing happens between a plane taking off and a plane landing: if too close, the former goes down the latter goes up. This scenario assumes that bumpers have IP addresses. Now, even if this assumption is true, there we still need to see whether it fits in the network mobility scenarios. The above scenario fits better a manet(-to-be), not much the NEMO approach. A NEMO-fitting scenario would be that your bumper is reachable at a permanent home address; when your bumper gets too close to my bumper, it would first present itself "HELO" with its permanent home address. Then my bumper would write to that permanent home address telling it being too close. Note, that if my bumper and if your bumper are in a close relation somehow, travelling together, then, after the vehicles have been distanced, I would care about where you are, hoping you didn't take an alternate route. So my bumper would send an UDP message to your bumper asking "WHEREIS", again towards the same permanent home address. Also, an even more credible scenario is car manufacturer upgrading software inside the vehicle, without a need for the vehicle to get an appointment to a service center: devices in the car have a permanent home address, reachable whenever the vehicle can connect to the Internet. That excellently fits the "parts replacement" scenario for many manufactureres and for NEMO as well. Remark this is all imaginary scenario (I have no affiliation to ITS), but this could fit the network mobility because there are several devices with IP addresses and in a moving network. Aeronautics could come up with similar scenarios. This is also to say that there is potentially much more to using IP technologies in a vehicle, than just giving access to Web for user laptops. > I know of some projects in france which have been using GSM systems > as instrumentation for determining speeds and volumes of user > flows. Similar analogies may be made with IP networks. Aha, I know about one project in Switzerland for SMART cars (that is a very small car, like the ones driving in golf field) where you get off the car, you click the button "park yourself", and the car parks itself between two other cars in the parking. Remember the "park" command of MS-DOS parking the disk heads :-) Still that doesn't use IP addresses for bumpers. > If we have a list of interested parties/documents, should we > approach a group/groups requirements doc, maybe a bit similar to > the 3GPP-IPv6wg reqs? Should this be accounted for in the base reqs > > > > I'm inclined to believe that the reqs should not be combined with > the basic NEMO reqs, since we're not sure that the application > areas will all be covered with basic NEMO (low-latency > communications for example). I tend to agree, so maybe we should remove ITS from draft-requirements, but try to find out which are the scenarios that are being considered both by ITS and by aeronautics and by 3gpp that do need IP addresses and IP connectivity. And since William came up with such an aeronautics scenario, we should consider it in more detail. -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 11:22:12 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA01086 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IGN2R04676; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:23:02 +0100 Received: from mx4.thebiz.net (mx4.thebiz.net [216.238.0.23]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id h1IGMQR04666 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:22:26 +0100 Received: (qmail 50964 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2003 11:22:24 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO stu.critical.com) (216.230.224.199) by mx4.thebiz.net with SMTP; 18 Feb 2003 11:22:24 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.0.20030218011610.00a04540@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: stu/mail.borg.com@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com From: "Stuart W. Card" Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements In-Reply-To: <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 01:23:32 -0500 At 09:03 AM 2/18/2003 +1100, Greg Daley wrote: >... ITS is a way of using computation systems >to provide information about vehicular >traffic flow, origin-destination path >statistics and monitoring of unusual/emergency >traffic events. > >I think that ITS is a broad field... > >If we have a list of interested parties/documents... I would be happy to participate in a sub-group focused on aeronautics (in my case, Air Force) requirements for NEMO. I agree there are some oddities that come up here more frequently than elsewhere: for instance, multiple radio link technologies with _very_ different characteristics (VHF LOS only when near airports, UHF SATCOM everywhere but with 250 mS single-hop speed of light lag, etc.). This is in addition to traffic profiles (at least for the most essential traffic) very different from standard Internet access. Etc. Stuart W. Card, Chief Scientist & VP, Critical Technologies Inc. Mohawk Valley Engineers Executive Council 2002 Company of the Year! Suite 400 Technology Center, 4th Floor 1001 Broad St, Utica NY 13501 315-793-0248 x141 FAX -9710 www.critical.com From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 12:00:45 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01934 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:00:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IH13R04859; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:01:03 +0100 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IH0lR04836 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:00:47 +0100 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h1IH0jd9022261; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:00:46 -0700 (MST) Received: [from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id KAA25636; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:00:45 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h1IGwIh28636; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:58:18 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B65B2EC95; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:57:33 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E5265FD.6070902@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William D Ivancic Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:57:33 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi William. I understand that the requirements below come from a body/organization strongly considering IP connectivity for for flying vehicle. Sorry for my naming scheme, please replace substitute for the right terms. Also please note I'm a totally clueless about the aeronautics field. I understand that it is assumed that a mobile network could be deployed in a flying vehicle that flies above the ground and that connects to different IP subnets lying on the ground. I understand that the IP subnets lying on the ground could be offering Access Routers (AR). Those two subnets on the ground could be very much associated to the Foreign Networks concepts of Mobile IPv4. Then, each time a flying vehicle connects to an Access Router, a Mobile Router in that vehicle will obtain a new Care-of Address. But we also need to identify in the aeronautics scenario, where is the home network. In this landscape, one might be tempted to associate the home network to the ground, like "Earth is Home". However, maybe a finer association would be that the home network is a certain airbase, for example the Control Center, or something at a fixed location, where the HA is placed, and different than the subnetworks providing the ARs. > 1. Connectivity to multiple subnets: > > Comment: > > “International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirement is to > permit aircraft to be able to make concurrent use of more than one > air/ground datalink according to a policy based routing scheme > that determines which datalink is used for each application. So, I understand that a MR would need simultaneous connectivity to two or more ground datalinks (AR). This could fit the multi-homing requirement in the requirements draft: the mobile network in the flying network could either have two mobile routers, each connected to one AR on the ground, or could have one mobile router with two interfaces, each interface attached to one AR on the ground. Multiple links to ground could provide reliability and implicitly safety under the form of a guaranteed link to ground. > On the other hand, Mobile IP has been designed to permit the use of > a single mobile network at any one time with “make before break” > transition between mobile networks. I understand the first occurence of the word mobile network, but not the second. Maybe, the second occurence is a confusion: for example the word "mobile network" is in wide use in the telecom community to stand for a fixed network that supports mobile terminals moving around that fixed network. Is this the intended meaning? > We understand and agree with the above comment. We also believe > that a similar requirement exists in other airborne applications. > At this point we are investigating various options to satisfy ICAO > mobility requirements. Some of these options are: > > q Incorporate IDRP mobility in IP based networks William, why suggesting IDRP, is this the Inter-Domain Routing Protocol (somehow equivalent to BGP)? What would be the scheme of IDRP work together with Mobile IP? I'm asking because one might be tempted to understand this as a mobile network whose MR does routing (IDRP) interactions with the visited ground network? -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 14:16:35 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05567 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:16:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJE3R05571; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:14:03 +0100 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (seraph3.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJDJR05561; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:13:20 +0100 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E9D6BA71; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.35]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC 8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1IJDAsW014628; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from GR7700006462.grc.nasa.gov (tb2-78.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.2.78]) by apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (8.8.8+Sun/2.20-grc) id OAA17793; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:13:09 -0500 (EST) X-Info: ODIN / NASA Glenn Research Center Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20030218132700.02b54228@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: caivanc@popserve.grc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 To: Alexandru Petrescu From: William D Ivancic Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Cc: William D Ivancic , In-Reply-To: <3E5265FD.6070902@nal.motlabs.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:13:09 -0500 Alexandru At 05:57 PM 2/18/2003 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:..... >>1. Connectivity to multiple subnets: >>Comment: >>"International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirement is to >> permit aircraft to be able to make concurrent use of more than one >> air/ground datalink according to a policy based routing scheme that >> determines which datalink is used for each application. > >So, I understand that a MR would need simultaneous connectivity to >two or more ground datalinks (AR). This could fit the multi-homing >requirement in the requirements draft: Correct, but is policy-based routing or load balancing part of this requirement. I don't see it and I don't think is should be - at least for the basic support. "R12: The solution MUST function for multi-homed mobile networks. More precisely: R13.1: The solution MUST support mobile networks with multiple MRs, R13.2: The solution MUST support MR with multiple interfaces, R13.3: The solution must support MR with multiple global addresses on an egress interface." >Multiple links to ground could provide reliability and implicitly >safety under the form of a guaranteed link to ground. > >>On the other hand, Mobile IP has been designed to permit the use of >> a single mobile network at any one time with "make before break" >> transition between mobile networks. > >I understand the first occurence of the word mobile network, but not >the second. Maybe, the second occurence is a confusion: for example >the word "mobile network" is in wide use in the telecom community to >stand for a fixed network that supports mobile terminals moving around >that fixed network. Is this the intended meaning? Yes, I believe so. >>We understand and agree with the above comment. We also believe that a >>similar requirement exists in other airborne applications. At this point >>we are investigating various options to satisfy ICAO >> mobility requirements. Some of these options are: >>q Incorporate IDRP mobility in IP based networks > >William, why suggesting IDRP, is this the Inter-Domain Routing >Protocol (somehow equivalent to BGP)? This is the suggestion of a small group in the aeronautics community. I have not studied the details of how they may want to use IDRP with mobile networks. These statements were taken from an Aeronautics document. The aeronautics community is small and the amount of networking people is smaller with lots of politics involved. They are also very ISO oriented today rather than IETF but are moving toward the IETF because of econimics and scale. I suspect that the reason for considering IDRP is taken from ISO/IEC 10747: "The methods of this protocol differ from those generally adopted for an intra-domain routeing protocol because they emphasize the interdependencies between efficient route calculation and the preservation of legal, contractual, and administrative concerns. This protocol calculates routes which will be efficient, loop-free, and in compliance with the domain's local routeing policies. IDRP may be used when routeing domains do not fully trust each other; it imposes no upper limit on the number of routeing domains that can participate in this protocol; and it provides isolation between its operations and the internal operations of each routeing domain." I suspect very little consideration has been given to router convergence times, the amount of bandwidth required to run IDRP, and the practicality of injecting routes into other's networks. However, for the latter case, the aeronautics community may feel they will own their own private network - at least on a country by country basis. A private network is expensive, but doable. In addition, it solves many security problems. Will From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 14:29:34 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA05985 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJQ2R05632; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:26:02 +0100 Received: from seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (seraph3.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.12]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJPqR05622 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:25:52 +0100 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by seraph3.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7FD96BA77 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.35]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC 8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1IJPjsW018058; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from GR7700006462.grc.nasa.gov (tb2-78.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.2.78]) by apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (8.8.8+Sun/2.20-grc) id OAA24358; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:25:45 -0500 (EST) X-Info: ODIN / NASA Glenn Research Center Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20030218141600.02b44e90@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: caivanc@popserve.grc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 To: "Stuart W. Card" From: William D Ivancic Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Cc: nemo@nal.motlabs.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030218011610.00a04540@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 14:25:45 -0500 At 01:23 AM 2/18/2003 -0500, Stuart W. Card wrote: >At 09:03 AM 2/18/2003 +1100, Greg Daley wrote: > > >I would be happy to participate in a sub-group focused >on aeronautics (in my case, Air Force) requirements for >NEMO. I agree there are some oddities that come up here >more frequently than elsewhere: for instance, multiple >radio link technologies with _very_ different characteristics >(VHF LOS only when near airports, UHF SATCOM everywhere but >with 250 mS single-hop speed of light lag, etc.). This is >in addition to traffic profiles (at least for the most >essential traffic) very different from standard Internet >access. Etc. I'm not so sure this is very different from standard Internet and tools that are available. Local QoS off the mobile router is doable today with TOS or diff serve bits and queue management. I can ensure that higher priority packets get the bandwidth first. I've run mobile-ipv4 at up to 3 seconds RTT delay with not problem. It begins to fall apart at higher delays due to security timers - protect against replay. So 250mS single-hop shouldn't be a problem. I've also run across multiple diverse links with no problem. I haven't done policy-based routing, however. I believe the aeronautics community wants such a policy so they can have command and control on the VHF link with other information running on the UHF or Ku-Band or L-Band Satcom link. I am not convinced that such complexity is necessary or truly provides much benefit in an operational system. Will From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 15:00:18 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06803 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJu2R05776; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:56:02 +0100 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJt1R05758 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:55:02 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h1IJt0d9015677; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:55:00 -0700 (MST) Received: [from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA24135; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:55:00 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h1IJtfh15696; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:55:42 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50AC2EC86; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:54:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E528F90.2080000@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William D Ivancic Cc: William D Ivancic, Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements References: <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <5.1.1.5.2.20030218132700.02b54228@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20030218132700.02b54228@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:54:56 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William D Ivancic wrote: > Alexandru > > At 05:57 PM 2/18/2003 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:..... > >>> 1. Connectivity to multiple subnets: Comment: "International >>> Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirement is to permit >>> aircraft to be able to make concurrent use of more than one >>> air/ground datalink according to a policy based routing scheme >>> that determines which datalink is used for each application. >> >> >> So, I understand that a MR would need simultaneous connectivity >> to two or more ground datalinks (AR). This could fit the >> multi-homing requirement in the requirements draft: > > > Correct, but is policy-based routing or load balancing part of this > requirement. I don't see it and I don't think is should be - at > least for the basic support. > > "R12: The solution MUST function for multi-homed mobile networks. > More precisely: R13.1: The solution MUST support mobile networks > with multiple MRs, R13.2: The solution MUST support MR with > multiple interfaces, R13.3: The solution must support MR with > multiple global addresses on an egress interface." I see, so the multi-homing is important. > This is the suggestion of a small group in the aeronautics > community. I have not studied the details of how they may want to > use IDRP with mobile networks. These statements were taken from an > Aeronautics document. The aeronautics community is small and the > amount of networking people is smaller with lots of politics > involved. > They are also very ISO oriented today rather than IETF but are > moving toward the IETF because of econimics and scale. I see, I had the opportunity sometimes to meet ISO, ADA and B people. It's often very good to talk to them. > "The methods of this protocol differ from those generally adopted > for an intra-domain routeing protocol because they emphasize the > interdependencies between efficient route calculation and the > preservation of legal, contractual, and administrative concerns. > This protocol calculates routes which will be efficient, loop-free, > and in compliance with the domain's local routeing policies. IDRP > may be used when routeing domains do not fully trust each other; it > imposes no upper limit on the number of routeing domains that can > participate in this protocol; and it provides isolation between its > operations and the internal operations of each routeing domain." > > I suspect very little consideration has been given to router > convergence times, the amount of bandwidth required to run IDRP, > and the practicality of injecting routes into other's networks. > However, for the latter case, the aeronautics community may feel > they will own their own private network - at least on a country by > country basis. A private network is expensive, but doable. In > addition, it solves many security problems. Yes, a small large private network is expensive (in all terms) but doable if commitment high enough. A small large private network has many advantages, like, among others, the highest possibly level of security and almost highest imaginable provable level of guarantees of well functioning. In that case however, I do not have a clear picture of why Mobile IP is required, I'm trying to clarify (for myself, not in the NEMO context) what are the advantages that Mobile IP would bring to the picture, but maybe this is off-topic here. In a small private network, maybe IDRP or BGP or other dynamic routing protocols are enough. Overall, from the aeronautics requirements, I understand that multi-homing is the only common requirement with NEMO, which is a good thing that NEMO potentially has to offer to aeronautics, I believe. -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 15:02:47 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA06871 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJx3R05813; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:59:03 +0100 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1IJw9R05801 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:58:09 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h1IJw7d9016589; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:58:07 -0700 (MST) Received: [from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA25510; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 12:58:07 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h1IJwnh17730; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 13:58:49 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3608A2EC86; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:58:04 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E52904C.6070604@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William D Ivancic Cc: "Stuart W. Card", Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements References: <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> <5.1.1.5.2.20030218141600.02b44e90@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20030218141600.02b44e90@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:58:04 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William D Ivancic wrote: > I've run mobile-ipv4 at up to 3 seconds RTT delay with not problem. > What is this RTT between? Is it between MN and HA or between MN and a CN? Or is it between MN and CN through the HA? If yes, how many IP hops are there between HA and CN? Just curious. -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 18:50:55 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA11908 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1INW4R06803; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 00:32:04 +0100 Received: from stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com [130.76.96.56]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1INV0R06793 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 00:31:01 +0100 Received: from slb-av-02.boeing.com ([129.172.13.7]) by stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id RAA13500 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:30:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from slb-hub-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-02.boeing.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/MBS-AV-02) with ESMTP id PAA25067 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:30:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NW-13P.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nw-13p.nw.nos.boeing.com [192.42.229.47]) by slb-hub-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id h1INUr812928 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from xch-nw-12.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.42.226.98]) by XCH-NW-13P.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:30:52 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Thread-Index: AcLXa3oIXkLJvuT+TEmT/dFk6+diBwANSmXw From: "EXT-Harkness, Duane" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Feb 2003 23:30:52.0284 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6B0B3C0:01C2D7A5] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by jessica.nal.motlabs.com id h1INV0R06793 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:30:51 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stuart and Will, I think you will find considerable support from members the aviation community for a sub group focused on aeronautical requirements for NEMO. I am particularly interested in the application of NEMO for the Aeronautical Telecommunications Network (ATN). As you know, the current ICAO Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs) for ATN are derived from OSI protocols. While no one questions the need for ATN, as Will points out numerous organizations are actively investigating how IP might supplement or even provide an alternative to OSI in meeting the goals of ATN. IMHO, the most challenging ATN requirements are network mobility, multi-homing, policy-based routing and ultra-high availability. The current ATN solution is based in part on hierarchical OSI addressing, CLNP security labels and IDRP routing policy. Any IP solution must provide analogous capabilities and NEMO seems like the right place to start for network mobility. I'd be more than happy to participate in an aeronautical requirements sub-group. Let me know how I can help get this started. Duane Harkness Senior Network Engineer Avaliant, LLC On contract to Boeing Air Traffic Management Disclaimer: This message is for technical discussion purposes only. It does not represent the official position of the Boeing Company. -----Original Message----- From: Stuart W. Card [mailto:stu@critical.com] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 10:24 PM To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements At 09:03 AM 2/18/2003 +1100, Greg Daley wrote: >... ITS is a way of using computation systems >to provide information about vehicular >traffic flow, origin-destination path >statistics and monitoring of unusual/emergency >traffic events. > >I think that ITS is a broad field... > >If we have a list of interested parties/documents... I would be happy to participate in a sub-group focused on aeronautics (in my case, Air Force) requirements for NEMO. I agree there are some oddities that come up here more frequently than elsewhere: for instance, multiple radio link technologies with _very_ different characteristics (VHF LOS only when near airports, UHF SATCOM everywhere but with 250 mS single-hop speed of light lag, etc.). This is in addition to traffic profiles (at least for the most essential traffic) very different from standard Internet access. Etc. Stuart W. Card, Chief Scientist & VP, Critical Technologies Inc. Mohawk Valley Engineers Executive Council 2002 Company of the Year! Suite 400 Technology Center, 4th Floor 1001 Broad St, Utica NY 13501 315-793-0248 x141 FAX -9710 www.critical.com From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 19:55:01 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13211 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J0p3R07187; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:51:03 +0100 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J0nwR07165; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:49:58 +0100 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id QAA11739; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h1J0nnK04122; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:49:49 -0800 X-mProtect: <200302190049> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (205.226.2.111, claiming to be "kniveton.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpd32XYCc; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:49:47 PST Message-ID: <3E52D4AC.63662F1F@kniveton.com> From: "T.J. Kniveton" Organization: NOKIA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greg.daley@eng.monash.edu.au CC: Alexandru Petrescu , William D Ivancic , nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements References: <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 16:49:48 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks.. Greg Daley wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > ITS is a way of using computation systems > to provide information about vehicular > traffic flow, origin-destination path > statistics and monitoring of unusual/emergency > traffic events. > > I think that ITS is a broad field, rather than > a specific technology. ITS can rely on many different > technologies: for example, inductive > loop instrumentation embedded in road surfaces and > visual recognition techniques. > I know of some projects in france which have been > using GSM systems as instrumentation for determining > speeds and volumes of user flows. > Similar analogies may be made with IP networks. > > If we have a list of interested parties/documents, > should we approach a group/groups requirements doc, > maybe a bit similar to the 3GPP-IPv6wg reqs? > Should this be accounted for in the base reqs? > > I'm inclined to believe that the reqs should not > be combined with the basic NEMO reqs, since we're > not sure that the application areas will all be covered > with basic NEMO (low-latency communications for example). This approach would probably be best; we would like to consider all potentially germaine applications of mobile routers and embody the reasonable ones in the requirements draft. All other input and future needs can be dealt with as special cases or other documents..otherwise, we will be stuck in a holding pattern. TJ From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 20:35:21 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA14360 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 20:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J1X2R07387; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 02:33:02 +0100 Received: from slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com [130.76.64.48]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J1WMR07377; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 02:32:23 +0100 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com ([192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id RAA28776; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-hub-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/MBS-AV-02) with ESMTP id TAA06469; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:32:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-01.nw.nos.boeing.com [192.33.62.231]) by blv-hub-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id h1J1WHW22743; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from xch-nw-12.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.42.226.98]) by XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:31:56 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Subject: RE: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Thread-Index: AcLXcYvs0Fi900qTSSmdSYSR4zmZGwAQrEAw From: "EXT-Harkness, Duane" To: "Alexandru Petrescu" , "William D Ivancic" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2003 01:31:56.0112 (UTC) FILETIME=[B044E500:01C2D7B6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by jessica.nal.motlabs.com id h1J1WMR07377 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:31:55 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >> On the other hand, Mobile IP has been designed to permit the use of >> a single mobile network at any one time with “make before break” >> transition between mobile networks. > >I understand the first occurence of the word mobile network, but not >the second. Maybe, the second occurence is a confusion: for example >the word "mobile network" is in wide use in the telecom community to >stand for a fixed network that supports mobile terminals moving around >that fixed network. Is this the intended meaning? I believe ICAO uses "mobile subnetwork" in the broader sense. The ATN SARPs define it as: "A subnetwork connecting a mobile system with another system not resident in the same mobile platform. These subnetworks tend to use free-radiating media (e.g. VHF/UHF radio, D band satellite or D band secondary surveillance radar) rather than contained media (e.g. wire or coaxial cable); thus they exhibit broadcast capabilities in the truest sense." Duane Harkness Senior Network Engineer Avaliant, LLC On contract to Boeing Air Traffic Management Disclaimer: This message is for technical discussion purposes only. It does not represent the official position of the Boeing Company. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 18 22:03:25 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA16064 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 22:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J2x3R07695; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 03:59:04 +0100 Received: from blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com (blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com [130.76.32.69]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J2w4R07685; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 03:58:04 +0100 Received: from blv-av-02.boeing.com ([192.42.227.217]) by blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com (8.9.2/8.8.5-M2) with ESMTP id SAA09737; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-hub-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-02.boeing.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/MBS-AV-02) with ESMTP id SAA26462; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-01.nw.nos.boeing.com [192.33.62.231]) by blv-hub-01.boeing.com (8.11.3/8.11.3/MBS-LDAP-01) with ESMTP id h1J2vnW22220; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from xch-nw-12.nw.nos.boeing.com ([192.42.226.98]) by XCH-NWBH-01.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:57:30 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6334.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Thread-Index: AcLXhV/a+977TVLtSIaEss5ab2q3owAM6z8Q From: "EXT-Harkness, Duane" To: "William D Ivancic" , "Alexandru Petrescu" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2003 02:57:30.0131 (UTC) FILETIME=[A4620630:01C2D7C2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by jessica.nal.motlabs.com id h1J2w4R07685 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:57:29 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >>At this point > >>we are investigating various options to satisfy ICAO > >> mobility requirements. Some of these options are: > >> Incorporate IDRP mobility in IP based networks > > > >William, why suggesting IDRP, is this the Inter-Domain Routing > >Protocol (somehow equivalent to BGP)? > > > This is the suggestion of a small group in the aeronautics > community. I have not studied the details of how they may > want to use IDRP with mobile networks. In ATN, the aircraft networks and the ground service provider networks are treated as seperate and distinct routing domains. The airborne MR and the AR on the ground each function as an OSI Boundary Intermediate System (BIS). When the MR connects to the AR over a wireless air-to-ground link, an IDRP session is established and routing information is exchanged. Network mobility is achieved by a combination of structured addressing (mobile network prefixes are distinct from fixed network prefixes), a hierarchical routing architecture consisting of routing 'islands', enhanced IDRP route propagation and the extensive use of default routes. Since IDRP is functionally similar to BGP, Chris Wargo has suggested [see RFC 3002] that it might be possible to duplicate the ATN mobility scheme directly in IP using BGP. I'm not sure how this might fit into a NEMO-based solution, but it's certainly an intersting idea. Question: Has the issue of mobile autonomous systems been discussed yet? Duane Harkness Senior Network Engineer Avaliant, LLC On contract to Boeing Air Traffic Management Disclaimer: This message is for technical discussion purposes only. It does not represent the official position of the Boeing Company. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Wed Feb 19 04:38:22 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA17015 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 04:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J9XDR09400; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:33:16 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1J9WWR09387 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:32:33 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO From: Alper Yegin To: Takeshi TANAKA , IETF NEMO Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20030218113542.FC86.TAKESHI.TANAKA@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:32:15 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, >> The AAA agents in the NEMO can help the AAA traffic be directed to the >> VMN's AAA server without going through NEMO's home AAA server. > I think it depends on AAA policy of AAA agent on the NEMO. Yes it does. My comment was in response to Christophe's message: Just as a side comment I would like to note that, in the general case where the NEMO does not host its own internal AAA infrastucture (i.e. AAA server), auth/authz for VMN entering the NEMO will require signalling to "cross the Internet" two times (NEMO at its current location -> NEMO's Home AAA server -> VMN's Home AAA server) due to the NEMO's current location potentially far from its Home network. This is a different with a regular mobile IP node where the internet will generally be crossed only once. So, it doesn't "have to" cross the Internet twice. And if the right policy is not used, even Mobile IP with roaming would incur the same sub-optimal path for AAA authentication. This is a deployment issue. > > AAA traffic from the AAA agent(should be AAA client) on the NEMO > will be directed to the VMN's AAA server if the agent has policy > to proxy it to VMN's AAA server. > The traffic from the agent will go through NEMO's home AAA server > if the agent has AAA policy only with NEMO's home AAA server and > NEMO's home AAA server has AAA policy to proxy it to VMN's AAA server. > > But I think the AAA agent on the NEMO has to process AAA traffic > in the same way as while the NEMO is at home. alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Wed Feb 19 19:22:45 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA13815 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1K0MAR29513; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:22:11 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1K0LRR29503 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:21:28 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] comments on requirements draft From: Alper Yegin To: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5F0@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 16:21:08 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On R12: the draft does not mention any requirements > on access selection by the MR in the case where > the mobile network is multihomed. There are two > cases I can think of: > > 1. The MR decides (unilaterally) to forward some > flows on one interface and others on a different > one. This is particularly possible when there is only > one MR with multiple interfaces. > > 2. Some exchange of information between the MR > and nemo-aware MNNs results in a preferred interface > for certain flows originating from certain MNNs. > > So what is the requirement?` something like: > "The solution should allow nemo-aware MNNs to request > that certain flows be forwarded on certain interfaces > and provide some recommendations that allow MRs to > select the right interface(s) for other MNNs." This sounds like a traffic engineering optimization, that any multi-homed network can use. While it's not specific to multi-homed "NEMO", probably the benefits of such a capability is higher here since MR's links vary greater in their characteristics and they come and go more often. IMHO, this is an additional optimization/feature that can be considered later, not for the initial NEMO protocol. alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 20 03:21:59 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04046 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 03:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1K8MSw01045; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:22:29 +0100 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1K8LMw01035 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:21:22 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by ftpbox.mot.com (Motorola/Ftpbox) with ESMTP id h1K8LK0r015947 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:21:20 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id BAA18892 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:21:20 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr06.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h1K8LHC22294; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 02:21:17 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr03-0108.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.175]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968D02EC86; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:21:15 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E548FFB.43914B8D@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] comments on requirements draft References: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF5F0@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:21:15 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hesham, "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" wrote: > Network mobility transparency. Shouldn't the 'should' in > the last line be a 'must'? yes and no :) This is my understanding: - It is a MUST for the basic mode as specified in section 5/R06 - However section 4 deals with general guidelines for both basic and extended mode. So the SHOULD here is to leave the door open for MNN to take part in RO for instance....This "should" could be changed to a "must" once requirements for the extended mode will be produced... Bye, Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 20 09:42:59 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16056 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 09:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1KEh5w03640; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:43:05 +0100 Received: from laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.17]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1KEg5w03622 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:42:05 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [193.52.74.194]) by laposte.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h1KEfuh13634; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:41:56 +0100 Received: from givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (localhost.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [127.0.0.1]) by givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1KEdIof032077; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:39:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from dupont@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr) Message-Id: <200302201439.h1KEdIof032077@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> From: Francis Dupont To: William D Ivancic cc: nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:53:08 EST. <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) at enst-bretagne.fr Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 15:39:18 +0100 In your previous mail you wrote: I've recently been asked to work with the Aeronautical community to provide input to their Protocol Specifications. The aeronautical community, similar to the Space community, often adds some requirements that then make it very difficult to use standard IETF protocols. Instead, some changes are required and then you end up with a proprietary protocol. My experience has lead me to believe that these added requirements are often unnecessary and little thought is put into the end cost and complexity. => fine. The following statements were taken from a Draft Communique From ATNP/WGB to AEEC ADN Working Group. I've voice my opinion to various ATNP/WGB groups members regarding what requirements are absolute necessary. I have also pointed out that the Mobile IPv4 mobile networks I've worked with do not perform policy based routing and that only one preferred route is taken when two or more attachment points from the mobile to the fixed network are available. => policy routing is not a NEMO problem at all. It is not standard in the Internet by many routers support it (Cisco, Juniper for instance). It can have performance problems but I believe this will be never a concern in your context. Does anyone see the need for or anticipate implementing policy base routing => it is implemented. or allowing data to flow over more than one link? => this is another problem. Do you need data of the same stream to flow over more than one link or not? Do you prefer layer 2 solutions (PPP-MP, RFC 1990)? etc. Mobile IP Key Issues 1. Connectivity to multiple subnets: Comment: International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirement is to permit aircraft to be able to make concurrent use of more than one air/ground datalink according to a policy based routing scheme that determines which datalink is used for each application. The ICAO OPLINK Panel has specified the requirements for datalink selection using a hierarchical classification. This requirement is necessary when reliance is placed upon network availability for air safety. It also acts as a means of mitigating the effects of Denial of Service attacks and can help provide load balancing over limited bandwidth networks. => It seems you'd like PPP-MP or similar stuff. On the other hand, Mobile IP has been designed to permit the use of a single mobile network at any one time with "make before break" transition between mobile networks. It does not permit simultaneous use other than by duplicating traffic (ref RFC 3220 4.2.3). => I disagree. If you have multiple home addresses (and home agents), you can use multiple mobile networks. Look at the multiple interface stuff to (draft-montavont-mobileip-mmi-00.txt). Some of these options are: q Incorporate IDRP mobility in IP based networks => I already saw this idea some years ago. A priori this is not a bad idea (when IDRP/CLNS are replaced by BGP/IP) but near all implementations are not prepared to join or quit adjacencies, or to work well with a high level of route flapping (i.e., this implies unusual operational constraints). BTW this seems to be out of the scope of NEMO. Regards Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr PS: air links are very slow compared to core links so a more traditional solution based on tunelling should work. The problem is planes can move very far so perhaps the best is a combinaison of both solutions? From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 20 13:28:58 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA24423 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1KIU3T29587; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:30:03 +0100 Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1KITNT29573 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:29:23 +0100 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1KIT4SQ015138; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:29:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from thomasm-u1.cisco.com (thomasm-u1.cisco.com [128.107.140.53]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.1-GA) with ESMTP id ABP74107; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (thomasm@localhost) by thomasm-u1.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/CISCO.WS.1.2) id KAA07840; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:29:03 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15957.7791.400106.62629@thomasm-u1.cisco.com> To: Francis Dupont Cc: William D Ivancic , nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements In-Reply-To: <200302201439.h1KEdIof032077@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <200302201439.h1KEdIof032077@givry.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr> X-Mailer: VM 6.72 under 21.1 (patch 6) "Big Bend" XEmacs Lucid X-Face: &,heK/V66p?[2!i|tVn,9lN0TUvEv7:9FzXREj/AuzN4mu!4x[/Z4t{V}~L]+Sk @RFNnJEg~WZ/(8<`5a),-7ukALWa^&?&D2R0CSG3kO5~#6JxLF\d,g">$%B!0w{W)qIhmwhye104zd bUcI'1! Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:29:03 -0800 (PST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Francis really captures technically my non-technical discomfort with having a more confined effort for requirements gathering. My fear is that such an effort could lead to a rather stovepiped set of requirements that are preceding from assumptions that aren't properly checked. My personal feeling is that input from the aeronautics community would be *extremely* valuable, but think that a mutual learning experience would be a much better way to achieve that. Another way to put this, if general NEMO requirements doesn't fit the needs for the aeronautics community, it would be a very good thing to have everybody on the same page as to what the explicit engineering tradeoffs so we can partition the problem space. That's at least as important as cataloging the requirements. Mike Francis Dupont writes: > In your previous mail you wrote: > > I've recently been asked to work with the Aeronautical community to provide > input to their Protocol Specifications. The aeronautical community, > similar to the Space community, often adds some requirements that then make > it very difficult to use standard IETF protocols. Instead, some > changes are required and then you end up with a proprietary protocol. My > experience has lead me to believe that these added requirements are often > unnecessary and little thought is put into the end cost and complexity. > > => fine. > > The following statements were taken from a Draft Communique From ATNP/WGB > to AEEC ADN Working Group. I've voice my opinion to various ATNP/WGB > groups members regarding what requirements are absolute necessary. I have > also pointed out that the Mobile IPv4 mobile networks I've worked with do > not perform policy based routing and that only one preferred route is taken > when two or more attachment points from the mobile to the fixed network are > available. > > => policy routing is not a NEMO problem at all. It is not standard in > the Internet by many routers support it (Cisco, Juniper for instance). > It can have performance problems but I believe this will be never a > concern in your context. > > Does anyone see the need for or anticipate implementing policy base > routing > > => it is implemented. > > or allowing data to flow over more than one link? > > => this is another problem. Do you need data of the same stream to > flow over more than one link or not? Do you prefer layer 2 solutions > (PPP-MP, RFC 1990)? etc. > > Mobile IP Key Issues > > 1. Connectivity to multiple subnets: > > Comment: > > International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) requirement is to permit > aircraft to be able to make concurrent use of more than one air/ground > datalink according to a policy based routing scheme that determines which > datalink is used for each application. The ICAO OPLINK Panel has specified > the requirements for datalink selection using a hierarchical > classification. This requirement is necessary when reliance is placed upon > network availability for air safety. It also acts as a means of mitigating > the effects of Denial of Service attacks and can help provide load > balancing over limited bandwidth networks. > > => It seems you'd like PPP-MP or similar stuff. > > On the other hand, Mobile IP has been designed to permit the use of a > single mobile network at any one time with "make before break" > transition between mobile networks. It does not permit simultaneous > use other than by duplicating traffic (ref RFC 3220 4.2.3). > > => I disagree. If you have multiple home addresses (and home agents), > you can use multiple mobile networks. Look at the multiple interface > stuff to (draft-montavont-mobileip-mmi-00.txt). > > Some of these options are: > > q Incorporate IDRP mobility in IP based networks > > => I already saw this idea some years ago. A priori this is not a bad > idea (when IDRP/CLNS are replaced by BGP/IP) but near all implementations > are not prepared to join or quit adjacencies, or to work well with > a high level of route flapping (i.e., this implies unusual operational > constraints). BTW this seems to be out of the scope of NEMO. > > Regards > > Francis.Dupont@enst-bretagne.fr > > PS: air links are very slow compared to core links so a more traditional > solution based on tunelling should work. The problem is planes can move > very far so perhaps the best is a combinaison of both solutions? From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 20 14:32:10 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA26699 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1KJX4T30157; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:33:04 +0100 Received: from penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.47]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1KJWBT30143 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:32:11 +0100 Received: from esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se (esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.254.69]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id h1KJWAAv000356; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:32:10 +0100 (MET) Received: by esealnt610.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:32:09 +0100 Message-ID: <4DA6EA82906FD511BE2F00508BCF053807FEF641@Esealnt861.al.sw.ericsson.se> From: "Hesham Soliman (EAB)" To: "'Alper Yegin'" , nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: RE: [nemo] comments on requirements draft MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:32:04 +0100 > > This sounds like a traffic engineering optimization, > that any multi-homed network can use. While it's > not specific to multi-homed "NEMO", probably the benefits of > such a capability is higher here since MR's links vary > greater in their characteristics and they come and go > more often. => Exactly. > > IMHO, this is an additional optimization/feature that > can be considered later, not for the initial NEMO protocol. => I don't have an opinion on when it should be considered. My point is there is nothing in the requirements draft on this. Hesham From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Thu Feb 20 22:07:35 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA07488 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1L314T03806; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:01:04 +0100 Received: from mailsrv.psl.com.sg (mailsrv.psl.com.sg [202.14.153.3]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1L30XT03770 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 04:00:34 +0100 Received: from tchaikovsky.psl.com.sg (beethoven.psl.com.sg [10.81.113.99]) by mailsrv.psl.com.sg (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h1L2rgZ26613; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:53:43 +0800 (SGT) Received: by tchaikovsky.psl.com.sg (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 65C1010E95DA; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:24:32 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO From: Chan-Wah Ng To: Alper Yegin Cc: nemo@nal.motlabs.com In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Panasonic Singapore Laboratories Message-Id: <1045797872.1687.42.camel@beethoven> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1- Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: 21 Feb 2003 11:24:32 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Alper and the rest, Pardon my late response, I was trying to catch up with the mailing list after a holiday. Allow me to summarize from what I have read thus far. There are two main area of AAA discussions here: (1) VMN moving with a mobile network. I think the issue is pretty much settled : VMN is required to perform auth/authz whenever it change its point of attachment. However, it might be an interesting research problem to see if there are ways to speed up the auth/authz porcess within the current AAA infrastructure, gconsidering the fact that auth/authz of VMN in a mobile network would typically require, as previous posts stated, crossing the Internet twice. (2) MR chaning its point of attachment. The issue is whether MNNs need to be notified (or even auth/authz need to be carried out) when the MR they attched to changes its point of attachment to the Internet. Reason for not notifying the MNNs is simple: it violates the transparency principle. Reason for notifying the MNNs: there is a policy/accounting change when MR changes its point of attachment. My personal view on this is that the service provide of the MR should have factored the possible change of policies under normal operation of the MR and provide a consistent policy to VMNs that are using the MR's service. Does that make sense? Anyway, this scenario is actually described in the AAA Usage Scenarios Draft (draft-ng-nemo-aaa-use-00.txt). It is great to discuss this further and hopefully the group can reach a consensus on the above two issues so that I can update the draft. Comments? On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 09:40, Alper Yegin wrote: > Hello, > > Here is an attempt to initiate discussions around AAA and NEMO > interaction. Please provide comments.... > > >From network access authentication and authorization perspective, > a NEMO network has two type of interactions. One is between the MR and the > its point of atttachment to the Internet. The other is between the > MNN and the NEMO. These can be viewed as separate and independent > from each other. MR can change its point of attachment any time, and this > requires new authentication and authorization for the MR. But this should > not require new auth/authz for the MNNs currently attached to the network. > Similarly, MNNs can come and go, but this should not necessarily require > auth/authz actions between the MR and its point of atttachment to the > Internet. The current AAA toolset should serve the needs (Radius, Diameter, > PANA, 802.1x, etc.) > > In a simple mobile IP case, MN changes its point of attachment > hence goes through full AAA with the new access network. But with > the NEMO model, there is no need to do auth/authz of MNNs when the MR > moves around. How does accounting get affected by this? > > A movement of MR might change the charging parameters that > MR is subject to. If such fluctuations are not to be passed down to the > MNNs, the current model of separate AAA stays valid. So, the MNNs can assume > that the billing parameters stay fixed between subsequent auth/authz. > Or, another assumption can be, MNNs accept any such fluctuations without > explicit notification from the NEMO network. Are these assumptions > acceptable? If not, then extensions to current AAA mechanisms might be > needed. > > Thoughts? > > alper -- Chan-Wah Ng Panasonic Singapore Laboratories From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 21 06:14:26 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA25923 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 06:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1LB5gT09566; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:05:53 +0100 Received: from chamomile.mlab.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp ([133.11.236.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id h1LB3vT09550 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:03:59 +0100 Received: (qmail 20207 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2003 11:03:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sunflower.mlab.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) (192.168.1.1) by 133.11.236.1 with SMTP; 21 Feb 2003 11:03:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 5277 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2003 11:03:38 -0000 Received: from sunflower.mlab.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp (HELO MORI-T30.mlab.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp) (192.168.1.1) by sunflower.mlab.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2003 11:03:38 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.7.2.20030221200335.04153cd0@localhost> X-Sender: mori@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2-Jr2 To: nemo@nal.motlabs.com From: Hiroyuki Morikawa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [nemo] CFP: MobiCom 2003 -- Paper registration due March 5, 2003 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:03:37 +0900 CALL FOR PAPERS MobiCom 2003 The Ninth Annual International Conference on Mobile Computing and Networking September 14-19, 2003 San Diego, California, USA http://www.sigmobile.org/mobicom/2003/ Sponsored by ACM SIGMOBILE ACM MobiCom 2003, the Ninth Annual International Conference on Mobile Computing and Networking, is the ninth in a series of annual conferences sponsored by ACM SIGMOBILE dedicated to addressing the challenges in the areas of mobile computing and wireless and mobile networking. The MobiCom conference series serves as the premier international forum addressing networks, systems, algorithms, and applications that support the symbiosis of mobile computers and wireless networks. MobiCom is a highly selective, single-track conference focusing on all issues in mobile computing and wireless and mobile networking at the link layer and above. MobiCom 2003 will be held September 14-19, 2003, at the Westin Horton Plaza Hotel in beautiful, sunny San Diego, California. PAPERS: Authors are invited to submit full papers presenting new research related to the theory or practice of mobile computing and networking. All submissions must describe original research, not published or currently under review for another conference or journal. Areas of interest include, but are not limited to: - Applications and computing services supporting mobile users - Architectures, protocols, and algorithms to cope with mobility, limited bandwidth, or intermittent connectivity - Database and data management issues in mobile computing - Operating system and middleware support for mobile computing and networking - Distributed systems aspects of mobile computing - New mobile and wireless applications - Integration and interworking of wired and wireless networks - Performance of mobile and wireless networks and systems - Location-dependent applications and protocols - Security and privacy of mobile/wireless systems - Mobile ad hoc and sensor networks - Wireless multimedia systems - Algorithms and protocols for power management and control - Service creation and management environments for mobile/wireless systems The program committee will referee all papers, and accepted papers will be published in the conference proceedings. Papers of particular merit will be proposed for publication in the ACM/Kluwer Wireless Networks (WINET) and Mobile Networks and Applications (MONET) journals. CHALLENGES PAPERS: The conference also solicits short papers (maximum of 8 pages) that challenge the mobile computing community with revolutionary new technologies or visionary applications. Such papers should provide stimulating ideas or grand visions that may open up exciting avenues of far-reaching future research; descriptions of new products or simple evolution of existing work are not appropriate as Challenges Papers. Challenges Papers will be reviewed and should be submitted using the normal submission procedure but must be clearly identified as intended as Challenges Papers. SUBMISSION INSTRUCTIONS: All paper submissions will be handled electronically. Authors should prepare a Portable Document Format (PDF) or PostScript version of their full paper. Papers must be no longer than 15 pages (8 pages for Challenges submissions), in font size no smaller than 10 points, and must fit properly on US "Letter"-sized paper (8.5x11 inches) with reasonable margins. Detailed instructions on the paper submission procedure and format are available on the conference web pages. All papers being submitted must be registered by March 12, 2003. The paper submission deadline is then March 12, 2003. All submitted papers will be judged based on their quality through double-blind reviewing, where the identities of the authors are withheld from the reviewers. Authors' names must not appear in the paper or in the PostScript or PDF file. Submitted papers (or substantially similar papers) must not be currently under review for any other publication. Please direct any questions about the paper submission process to the Program Co-Chairs at mobicom_pcchairs@acm.org. TUTORIALS: Proposals for tutorials are solicited. Evaluation of tutorial proposals will be based on the expertise and experience of the instructors, and on the relevance of the subject matter. Potential instructors are requested to submit a tutorial proposal of at most 5 pages, including a biographical sketch, to the Tutorial Co-Chairs by April 7, 2003. PANELS: Panels are solicited that examine innovative, controversial, or otherwise provocative issues of interest. Panel proposals should not exceed 3 pages, including biographical sketches of the panelists. Potential panel organizers should contact the Panel Co-Chairs by April 21, 2003. RESEARCH DEMOS AND EXHIBITS: Proposals for research demos are solicited. Proposals should not exceed 3 pages and should include a description of the demo and equipment to be used. Send proposals to the Research Demo Chair by July 26, 2003. We are also planning an Expo featuring exhibits of the latest mobile computing products and services. BEST STUDENT PAPER AWARD: Papers with a student as a primary author will be considered for the Best Student Paper award, with a cash award of $1000 USD. Students must indicate with their submission that they would like to be considered for this award. IMPORTANT DATES: Paper registration deadline: March 5, 2003 Paper submission deadline: March 12, 2003 Notification of acceptance: June 16, 2003 Camera-ready version due: July 18, 2003 All papers being submitted to MobiCom 2003 must be registered by 11:59 PM PST (US Pacific timezone) March 5, 2003. The deadline for actually then submitting all registered papers is 11:59 PM PST (US Pacific timezone) March 12, 2003. These are firm deadlines. GENERAL CHAIR: David B. Johnson Rice University dbj@cs.rice.edu PROGRAM CO-CHAIRS: Anthony D. Joseph University of California, Berkeley adj@eecs.berkeley.edu Nitin H. Vaidya University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign nhv@uiuc.edu For a complete list of Organizing and Program Committee members, please refer to the web pages at http://www.sigmobile.org/mobicom/2003/. FOR MORE INFORMATION: Please contact the General Chair or Program Co-Chairs for more information. For information on ACM SIGMOBILE and the MobiCom series of conferences, see http://www.sigmobile.org/ or contact mobicom_info@acm.org. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 21 18:53:19 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA18884 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:53:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1LNs5T12857; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:54:05 +0100 Received: from fridge.docomolabs-usa.com (fwuser@key1.docomolabs-usa.com [216.98.102.225]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1LNrsT12847 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 00:53:54 +0100 Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO From: Alper Yegin To: Chan-Wah Ng CC: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1045797872.1687.42.camel@beethoven> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:53:36 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chan-Wah, Just a quick note... > (1) VMN moving with a mobile network. > > I think the issue is pretty much settled : VMN is required to perform > auth/authz whenever it change its point of attachment. However, it > might be an interesting research problem to see if there are ways to > speed up the auth/authz porcess within the current AAA infrastructure, > gconsidering the fact that auth/authz of VMN in a mobile network would > typically require, as previous posts stated, crossing the Internet > twice. I hope we agreed that the nature of NEMO does not necessarily create such sub-optimal auth/authz process. The potential optimization (i.e, fast re-authentication) should be the same as what people are attempting for fixed access networks as well. Any roaming client can take advantage of such optimizations, regardless of whether their access network is also roaming. But because of the increased number of "moving parts", these optimizations' benefits are amplified in the NEMO case, I think. alper From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 21 19:20:49 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA19394 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1M0M2T12975; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:22:02 +0100 Received: from seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (seraph2.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.11]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1M0L5T12965; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:21:05 +0100 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by seraph2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFBA689DE; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.35]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC 8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1M0KvsW025816; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from GR7700006462.grc.nasa.gov (vtcp2-20.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.246.20]) by apataki-fi.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (8.8.8+Sun/2.20-grc) id TAA22985; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:20:55 -0500 (EST) X-Info: ODIN / NASA Glenn Research Center Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20030221191354.02a98070@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: caivanc@popserve.grc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 To: Alexandru Petrescu From: William D Ivancic Subject: Re: [nemo] Aeronautics Requirements Cc: "Stuart W. Card" , In-Reply-To: <3E52904C.6070604@nal.motlabs.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20030218141600.02b44e90@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E515C45.9090100@eng.monash.edu.au> <20030213.191328.13064188.ernst@sfc.wide.ad.jp> <5.1.1.5.2.20030214150056.024bef98@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> <3E501C32.10604@eng.monash.edu.au> <3E50F103.5030607@nal.motlabs.com> <5.1.1.5.2.20030218141600.02b44e90@popserve.grc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:20:50 -0500 Alexandru, I forwarded you question to my colleague, Dave Stewart, who did much of the testing. Place the delay between the MR and FA and between the FA and HA. We used and Adtech SX14. To place the delay between the FA and MR, we needed to put some routers that we used to match interfaces into bridge mode. Dave's response is below. Sorry I didn't get back sooner, but I wanted to make sure I gave you a correct and complete answer. >Dave, > >Refresh my memory, we tried the Adtech between the FA and MR, but also, I >think we had it between the FA and HA for a while. Correct? Yes, it was one ot the first tests we performed, way back when. We had the Adtech between HA - FA and between MR - FA. In either case, the MD5 hashing failed when the RTT approached 3 seconds. It did not make a difference whether the delay was evenly split or all on one side of the link or the other. As I recall, Kent (Kent Leung of Cisco Systems) thought he could tweak the registration to fix this, but we felt 3 seconds were enough. At 08:58 PM 2/18/2003 +0100, Alexandru Petrescu wrote: >William D Ivancic wrote: >>I've run mobile-ipv4 at up to 3 seconds RTT delay with not problem. > >What is this RTT between? Is it between MN and HA or between MN and a >CN? Or is it between MN and CN through the HA? If yes, how many IP >hops are there between HA and CN? Just curious. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Sat Feb 22 12:49:42 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA13753 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1MHoPT17376; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:50:26 +0100 Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1MHnYT17362 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:49:35 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h1MHn9G1019396; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:49:09 -0700 (MST) Received: [from az33exr03.mot.com (az33exr03.mot.com [10.64.251.233]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id KAA18584; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:49:06 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by az33exr03.mot.com (8.11.6/az33exr03) with ESMTP id h1MHn1Z18349; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:49:02 -0600 Received: from motorola.com (zfr24-sr2-22.corp.mot.com [140.101.145.22]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2CE2EC86; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:48:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E57B80A.1D224E08@motorola.com> From: Christophe Janneteau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alper Yegin Cc: Chan-Wah Ng, Subject: Re: [nemo] AAA and NEMO References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 18:48:58 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alper and Chan-Wah, Alper Yegin wrote: > > (1) VMN moving with a mobile network. > > > > I think the issue is pretty much settled : VMN is required to perform > > auth/authz whenever it change its point of attachment. However, it > > might be an interesting research problem to see if there are ways to > > speed up the auth/authz porcess within the current AAA infrastructure, > > gconsidering the fact that auth/authz of VMN in a mobile network would > > typically require, as previous posts stated, crossing the Internet > > twice. > > I hope we agreed that the nature of NEMO does not necessarily create such > sub-optimal auth/authz process. The potential optimization (i.e, fast > re-authentication) should be the same as what people are attempting > for fixed access networks as well. Any roaming client can take advantage of > such optimizations, regardless of whether their access network is also > roaming. But because of the increased number of "moving parts", these > optimizations' benefits are amplified in the NEMO case, I think. I agree, fast re-auth mechanisms are even more critical in the NEMO context that in the fixed context... Christophe From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 24 06:21:00 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA07911 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 06:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1OBL7T05574; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:21:10 +0100 Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1OBKKT05564 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:20:20 +0100 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h1OBKDG1027302 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 04:20:14 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr02.mot.com (il06exr02.mot.com [129.188.137.132]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id EAA03540 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 04:20:15 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr02) with ESMTP id h1OBGx518654 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 05:16:59 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BB22EC86 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:17:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E59FF2D.9040707@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nemo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] comments on draft-wakikawa-nemo-basic-00.txt Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:17:01 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to authors of draft-wakikawa-nemo-basic-00.txt. I understand the draft is up for discussion, so here are comments. Please take them as constructive, I do like the draft but I'm trying to figure it out better, thank you. First, thank you for providing this detailed description. Its novel aspects show that there are indeed many new potential solutions for the NEMO problem space, even if only within the basic sub-space. Overall, I understand that the main new aspects to be considered are three: assigning the HoA to the MR's ingress interface (not the egress), the two-step search in the binding cache by HA, and the assumption of delegation of prefixes from HA to MR. There might be more, but those are what I understood. In general, I have many positive remarks to many aspects of the description but I won't mention because I agree. I'll mention the points I find questionable, but feel free to disagree and educate me. "1. MR acquisition of Mobile Network Prefix: At the beginning, MR MUST have a mobile network prefix delegated from its HA.Dynamic HA discovery can be used to discover the HA address by MR. MR can also have a statically configured HA before starting any operations." To me, the word "delegation", is "prefix delegation" as in DHCPv6 prefix delegation. In that case, the DHCPv6 server delegates and that server might be different than the HA. Of course "delegation" may mean something else, like a result of zerouter-bof. The statement above links HA discovery to HA prefix delegation, in a "use" manner, which I do not think should be the case: HA discovery and prefix-delegation/assignment should be independent operations. "6. HA tunneling packets addressed to Mobile Network: The HA intercepts and tunnels all packets destined to the MR's mobile network prefix by IP-in-IP encapsulation." I think more attention should be paid to the way HA intercepts packets addressed to all nodes behind MR (when HA uses prefixes in its bc). The idea is that currently, a Mobile IPv6 HA for hosts takes the home address in the bc and does a periodic NA for it, putting its own L2 address. With a prefix, it would mean taking all addresses within that prefix and dooo NAAA forrr eachhh addressss. Or am I wrong? Later in the draft: "While MR is away from HA link, HA intercepts packets destined to the registered mobile network prefix." Maybe you have a more detailed view on how HA intercepts packets destined to the registered mobile network prefix. Is it something like HA snoops at those packets? Or is it more like HA uses unsolicited broadcasted NA to pretend having MNN's L3 address? "1 HA searches a binding cache database with 128-bit prefix length as Mobile IPv6. "2 HA searches a binding cache database with a registered prefix length in a prefix binding only if a prefix length is available (i.e. the binding is a prefix binding)." I think more detailed info should be given about this search. Or maybe an Annex. For example, what happens if search 1 finds something, will the 2nd search be performed. Also, the logic of "longest-prefix match" means that a /128 search will be performed anyways by step2, so why splitting it in two. I might be wrong, but the description is necessary to go into more detail. Section 5.4 "Types of tunnelled packets to HA": "- Routing Messages of Mobile Network Prefix MR MAY tunnel any routing messages of its mobile network prefix. - Multicast Routing Message MR MUST tunnel all control messages of multicast routing protocols [9] [17] to HA." There is a sort of potential redundancy, or inconsistency or incoherency here. Most routing messages in IPv6 (say a RIPng update) are mostly multicasted. So, if all multicast routing messages MUST be tunneled, then the first item in the list above becomes irrelevant. It is true that not all messages are multicasted. For example, an "advertising" type of message will be multicasted, while a a more "request" type of message will be directly unicasted. So, if "advertising" messages are tunneled but not the "request" messages (a freedom given by the MAY) then the routing protocol might not work as before. "When MR is attached to a HA link, on the other hand, the HA SHOULD route packets to the mobile network according to general IP routing." Agree, but see below, there's a potential contradiction. "The HA MAY NOT have exact routing entries for the mobile network prefix, but it knows the next-hop address of the mobile network prefix from the registered prefix binding. If the MR-CoA is configured by one of the HA's prefix, the MR-CoA becomes on-link at HA link. The HA should route packets to the next-hop address (MR-CoA) of the registered prefix binding." It is acknowledged above above that "general IP routing" is used between HA and MR when MR is at home. It is also acknowledged somewhere in the draft that when MR is at home, there won't be tunnels between MR and HA. However, the paragraph right above indicates that routing between MR and HA when MR at home happens according to an entry that is the prefix binding, in the binding cache, i.e. Mobile IPv6, i.e. not "general IP routing". For example, assume that MR stays at home for an extended while. Then it will not change its CoA, thus won't send BU's, thus the prefix entry in the binding cache expires, thus unreachable. We most certainly don't want this. Of course, this again might revolve around binding cache and routing table concepts, and what is where and so on. Section 6.3. Types of Tunneled Packets to MR: "HA MAY tunnel any routing information obtained by routing protocols. While away from HA link, MR MUST NOT accept any routing messages tunneled by the HA. " Wouldn't this prohibit running any dynamic routing protocol between MR and its home domain, when MR is away from home? Is this the intended meaning? "Also, the MR SHOULD NOT accept any routing messages to update its routing table except for default routes at a visiting link. This would imply that MR MAY accept routing messages to update its routing table with default routes, those messages being received from the visited link, thus routing interactions with the visited domain? Or is it that HA sends route updates to MR, MR is away from home, and HA tells the MR which are the default routes in the visited link? Thank you for the security overview, it looks reasonable, with quirks (what exactly is prefix delegation? what are the threats? how are these threats prevented?) Thanks again for the draft. -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 24 18:27:51 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA00082 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1ONS5T08609; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:28:05 +0100 Received: from mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (mailhost.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.12]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1ONRvT08599 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 00:27:57 +0100 Received: from darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (darkstar.iprg.nokia.com [205.226.5.69]) by mailhost.iprg.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3-GLGS) with ESMTP id PAA26419 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Delivered-For: Received: (from root@localhost) by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com (8.11.0/8.11.0-DARKSTAR) id h1ONRh513832 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:27:43 -0800 X-mProtect: <200302242327> Nokia Silicon Valley Messaging Protection Received: from UNKNOWN (172.18.141.68, claiming to be "iprg.nokia.com") by darkstar.iprg.nokia.com smtpdQslNoH; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:27:05 PST Message-ID: <3E5AAA48.4000703@iprg.nokia.com> From: Cedric Westphal User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nemo References: <3E59FF2D.9040707@nal.motlabs.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [nemo] CFP: ASWN 2003. Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 15:27:04 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry if you receive multiple copies of this.
Here is the call for papers for ASWN 2003, that might
interest some of the people on this list. Bern is very scenic
in the summer, fwiw, and close (1h drive) to France, Germany,
and 2h to Italy.

ASWN 2003 is the third workshop on Applications and Services in Wireless Networks. The first two events were held in France, and in 2003 the workshop will take place in the capital of Switzerland. ASWN 2003 aims at investigating new developments in wireless networks focusing on applications and services. The workshop will provide three-day presentations of invited and regular papers from manufacturers, academia, and services providers. Authors are invited to submit full technical papers on both theoretical and practical aspects of the ambit of the workshop.Tutorial proposals are also requested.


Topics

Specific areas of interest in Applications and Services on Wireless Networks include, but are not limited to, the following topics:

  • Media Distribution over Wireless Networks
  • New Data Services for Wireless Network
  • Audio-visual Applications for Home and Business
  • Inter Domain and Inter System Mobility
  • QoS Profiling and Pricing, end-to-end QoS
  • Security and AAA Aspects
  • Nomadic Services, Interface Management
  • Mobile ad-hoc Networks, Multihop Wireless Networks
  • Wireless Local Loop Technologies
  • Wireless Personal Area Networks
  • Software Radios
  • Enabling Technologies and Architectures, 3G and beyond
  • Service Development, Validation & Test
  • Service Creation and Discovery
  • Location-based Services
  • Middleware for Mobile Applications and Services
  • Mobile Multimedia
  • Performance of Mobile/Wireless Networks and Systems
  • Mobile Service Interworking
  • Context and Ambient Awareness
  • Cooperative Networks

Papers

Prospective authors are invited to submit for review, papers that neither have been previously published nor are under review by another conference or journal. Priority will be given for original contributions describing recent and innovative research results or developments in the scope of the workshop.
Papers must be written in English in two-column format, using font no smaller than 10 points and not exceed 10 pages. Only PDF and PostScript formats will be accepted, and all submissions will be handled electronically. Further details on submission procedures will be described soon on the workshop main page as Instructions for submission


Tutorials

Proposals for tutorials including content description and CV of the presenter should be sent to the Local Arrangements Chair.


Publications

Accepted papers will be published in the conference proceedings. Additionally, the best papers of the workshop will be considered for publication in a special issue of Elsevier's Computer Communications Journal.

From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Mon Feb 24 22:40:54 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA05372 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1P3f7T09945; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 04:41:07 +0100 Received: from mail.ict.ac.cn ([159.226.39.4]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id h1P3e6T09933 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 04:40:06 +0100 Message-Id: <200302250340.h1P3e6T09933@jessica.nal.motlabs.com> Received: (qmail 1656 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2003 03:25:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO zwj) (159.226.39.104) by 159.226.39.4 with SMTP; 25 Feb 2003 03:25:06 -0000 From: "Zhang Wenjie" To: "nemo@nal.motlabs.com" X-mailer: Foxmail 4.2 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by jessica.nal.motlabs.com id h1P3e6T09933 Subject: [nemo] a question about "Node behind the MR" Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 11:40:1 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does "Node behind the MR"(draft-ernst-nemo-terminology-01.txt) include FNs in the mobile network, except MNNs defined in the draft? Thanks! Zhang Wenjie zwj@ict.ac.cn ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡2003-02-25 From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 25 03:15:03 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA19946 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 03:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1P8F5T11554; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:15:05 +0100 Received: from shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp [203.178.142.130]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1P8EVT11542; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:14:32 +0100 Received: from monster.sfc.wide.ad.jp.sfc.wide.ad.jp (unknown [202.3.228.202]) by shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD7A5D01E; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:14:18 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: From: Ryuji Wakikawa To: petrescu@nal.motlabs.com Cc: nemo@nal.motlabs.com Subject: Re: [nemo] comments on draft-wakikawa-nemo-basic-00.txt In-Reply-To: <3E59FF2D.9040707@nal.motlabs.com> References: <3E59FF2D.9040707@nal.motlabs.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.8.1 (Something) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 Emacs/20.7 (i386--freebsd) MULE/4.1 (AOI) Organization: Keio University MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:14:16 +0900 Hello Alex. > In general, I have many positive remarks to many aspects of the > description but I won't mention because I agree. I'll mention the > points I find questionable, but feel free to disagree and educate me. > > "1. MR acquisition of Mobile Network Prefix: At the beginning, MR > MUST have a mobile network prefix delegated from its HA.Dynamic > HA discovery can be used to discover the HA address by MR. MR > can also have a statically configured HA before starting any > operations." > > To me, the word "delegation", is "prefix delegation" as in DHCPv6 > prefix delegation. In that case, the DHCPv6 server delegates and that > server might be different than the HA. Of course "delegation" may > mean something else, like a result of zerouter-bof. I do not assume any protocol for delegating prefix. Of course, DHCPv6 can be a protocol for this, but I did not consider this part enough to discuss in the draft. The point is that HA MUST know the information about set of MR and the delegated prefix. My explanation may not be appropriate at this text. > The statement above links HA discovery to HA prefix delegation, in a > "use" manner, which I do not think should be the case: HA discovery > and prefix-delegation/assignment should be independent operations. I agree on this. I want to say MR may be able to use a HA address which is obtained during HA discovery operation for trigger of prefix-delegation operation. (sending some request to the address) Other example: If MR uses DHCPv6 for prefix-delegation, MR may know HA address (HA discovery) during prefix-delegation operation. > "6. HA tunneling packets addressed to Mobile Network: The HA > intercepts and tunnels all packets destined to the MR's mobile > network prefix by IP-in-IP encapsulation." > > I think more attention should be paid to the way HA intercepts packets > addressed to all nodes behind MR (when HA uses prefixes in its bc). > The idea is that currently, a Mobile IPv6 HA for hosts takes the home > address in the bc and does a periodic NA for it, putting its own L2 > address. With a prefix, it would mean taking all addresses within > that prefix and dooo NAAA forrr eachhh addressss. Or am I wrong? > Later in the draft: > "While MR is away from HA link, HA intercepts packets destined to > the registered mobile network prefix." > > Maybe you have a more detailed view on how HA intercepts packets > destined to the registered mobile network prefix. Is it something > like HA snoops at those packets? Or is it more like HA uses > unsolicited broadcasted NA to pretend having MNN's L3 address? Since HA is an end-router for the prefix on the Internet (i.e. advertising mobile network prefix by routing protocol), HA will receive all packets destined to a mobile network prefix. During IP forwarding procedure, HA looks up binding cache and finds a prefix binding. Therefore, HA can tunnel all these packets to MR. > "1 HA searches a binding cache database with 128-bit prefix > length as Mobile IPv6. > > "2 HA searches a binding cache database with a registered prefix > length in a prefix binding only if a prefix length is > available (i.e. the binding is a prefix binding)." > > I think more detailed info should be given about this search. Or > maybe an Annex. For example, what happens if search 1 finds > something, will the 2nd search be performed. Also, the logic of > "longest-prefix match" means that a /128 search will be performed > anyways by step2, so why splitting it in two. I might be wrong, but > the description is necessary to go into more detail. If HA serves multiple mobile network prefixes (one is a:b::/64, and another is a::/48), then this HA first search binding cache with 128-bit length(search-1). After that, HA may do "search-2" twice time for 64 and then for 48. Whenever HA finds a binding, it stops search. q> Section 5.4 "Types of tunnelled packets to HA": > "- Routing Messages of Mobile Network Prefix > MR MAY tunnel any routing messages of its mobile network > prefix. > > - Multicast Routing Message > MR MUST tunnel all control messages of multicast routing > protocols [9] [17] to HA." > > There is a sort of potential redundancy, or inconsistency or > incoherency here. Most routing messages in IPv6 (say a RIPng update) > are mostly multicasted. So, if all multicast routing messages MUST be > tunneled, then the first item in the list above becomes irrelevant. Multicast Routing Message indicates messages of "mrouted" (IP multicast routing, PIM etc), but not messages of IP routing (OSPF, RIPng). MR MAY tunnel any RIPng messages regardless of multicasting. MR MUST tunnel any PIM messages regardless of multicasting. > It is true that not all messages are multicasted. For example, an > "advertising" type of message will be multicasted, while a a more > "request" type of message will be directly unicasted. So, if > "advertising" messages are tunneled but not the "request" messages (a > freedom given by the MAY) then the routing protocol might not work as > before. This is true though.... > "When MR is attached to a HA link, on the other hand, the HA SHOULD > route packets to the mobile network according to general IP > routing." > > Agree, but see below, there's a potential contradiction. > > "The HA MAY NOT have exact routing entries for the mobile network > prefix, but it knows the next-hop address of the mobile network > prefix from the registered prefix binding. If the MR-CoA is > configured by one of the HA's prefix, the MR-CoA becomes on-link > at HA link. The HA should route packets to the next-hop address > (MR-CoA) of the registered prefix binding." > > It is acknowledged above above that "general IP routing" is used > between HA and MR when MR is at home. It is also acknowledged > somewhere in the draft that when MR is at home, there won't be tunnels > between MR and HA. However, the paragraph right above indicates that > routing between MR and HA when MR at home happens according to an > entry that is the prefix binding, in the binding cache, i.e. Mobile > IPv6, i.e. not "general IP routing". > > For example, assume that MR stays at home for an extended while. Then > it will not change its CoA, thus won't send BU's, thus the prefix > entry in the binding cache expires, thus unreachable. We most > certainly don't want this. In this protocol, there is no notion of deregistered BU. MR MUST always sends BU to HA even if MR is at home. MR also sends BU periodically not to expire the registered binding at HA. > Of course, this again might revolve around binding cache and routing > table concepts, and what is where and so on. > > Section 6.3. Types of Tunneled Packets to MR: > "HA MAY tunnel any routing information obtained by routing > protocols. While away from HA link, MR MUST NOT accept any > routing messages tunneled by the HA. " > > Wouldn't this prohibit running any dynamic routing protocol between MR > and its home domain, when MR is away from home? Is this the intended > meaning? This "MUST NOT" is typo...This must change to "MAY". Thanks for pointing out. > "Also, the MR SHOULD NOT accept any routing messages to update > its routing table except for default routes at a visiting link. > > This would imply that MR MAY accept routing messages to update its > routing table with default routes, those messages being received from > the visited link, thus routing interactions with the visited domain? When MR attach to the visiting domain, MR behaves as a node. Get RA from a router and configure IP address and default route. This expression is also unappropriate. MR does not acquire the default route by routing protocol. I will fix this in next version. Thanks a lot! Best Regards, ryuji ps. Here is our current status of this protocol. We have already implemented core parts of this protocol. It works fine as a prototype :-) Nested mobility (VMN at NEMO) is also working. We are going to demonstrate this systems on March 12 at our campus. If somebody is interested in this demo, please contact me. sorry for _local_ announcement at this ML. From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 25 03:25:19 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA20141 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 03:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1P8R2T11623; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:27:02 +0100 Received: from jazz.mei.co.jp (jazz.mei.co.jp [202.224.189.26]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1P8QOT11612 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 09:26:25 +0100 Received: by jazz.mei.co.jp (8.12.5/3.7W/kings) with ESMTP id h1P8QHsa020057 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:26:17 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail-gw.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/somlx1) with ESMTP id h1P8QHw04416 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:26:17 +0900 (JST) Received: by mail.jp.panasonic.com (8.11.6/3.7W/redsox) with ESMTP id h1P8QHb20088 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:26:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp by postman.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.1/3.7Wpl2:mcihub1:03022017) id h1P8QGf08673; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:26:16 +0900 (JST) Received: from [133.183.212.174] by gaugin.telecom.mci.mei.co.jp (8.11.6/3.7Wpre-TELECOM(gaugin)) with ESMTP id h1P8QFj07876 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:26:15 +0900 (JST) From: Takeshi TANAKA To: IETF NEMO Subject: Re: [nemo] comments on draft-wakikawa-nemo-basic-00.txt In-Reply-To: <3E59FF2D.9040707@nal.motlabs.com> References: <3E59FF2D.9040707@nal.motlabs.com> Message-Id: <20030225161354.32D0.TAKESHI.TANAKA@yrp.mci.mei.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.06 Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 17:26:59 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Wakikawa-san et al. authors, Thank you for the detailed draft. I also felt even basic NEMO solution has many poteltial solution, and have some comments on the draft. On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 12:17:01 +0100 Alexandru Petrescu wrote : > Hello to authors of draft-wakikawa-nemo-basic-00.txt. I understand > the draft is up for discussion, so here are comments. Please take > them as constructive, I do like the draft but I'm trying to figure it > out better, thank you. > > First, thank you for providing this detailed description. Its novel > aspects show that there are indeed many new potential solutions for > the NEMO problem space, even if only within the basic sub-space. > > Overall, I understand that the main new aspects to be considered are > three: assigning the HoA to the MR's ingress interface (not the > egress), the two-step search in the binding cache by HA, and the > assumption of delegation of prefixes from HA to MR. There might be > more, but those are what I understood. > > In general, I have many positive remarks to many aspects of the > description but I won't mention because I agree. I'll mention the > points I find questionable, but feel free to disagree and educate me. > > "1. MR acquisition of Mobile Network Prefix: At the beginning, MR > MUST have a mobile network prefix delegated from its HA.Dynamic > HA discovery can be used to discover the HA address by MR. MR > can also have a statically configured HA before starting any > operations." > > To me, the word "delegation", is "prefix delegation" as in DHCPv6 > prefix delegation. In that case, the DHCPv6 server delegates and that > server might be different than the HA. Of course "delegation" may > mean something else, like a result of zerouter-bof. > > The statement above links HA discovery to HA prefix delegation, in a > "use" manner, which I do not think should be the case: HA discovery > and prefix-delegation/assignment should be independent operations. > > "6. HA tunneling packets addressed to Mobile Network: The HA > intercepts and tunnels all packets destined to the MR's mobile > network prefix by IP-in-IP encapsulation." > > I think more attention should be paid to the way HA intercepts packets > addressed to all nodes behind MR (when HA uses prefixes in its bc). > The idea is that currently, a Mobile IPv6 HA for hosts takes the home > address in the bc and does a periodic NA for it, putting its own L2 > address. With a prefix, it would mean taking all addresses within > that prefix and dooo NAAA forrr eachhh addressss. Or am I wrong? I think this part "how packets to mobile router are relayed to a home agent", is one of the most important part in the NEMO basic support. As Alexandru said, packets addressed to mobile router is relayed to HA from border router since HA is proxying ND for the mobile router, but packets addressed to mobile router can not be relayed to MNN. I think this has been discussed before, and in the discussion, one of the approach is "manually configure a border router on the home link to make a routing entry to relay packets to mobile network prefix to home address of mobile router". > Section 5.4 "Types of tunnelled packets to HA": > "- Routing Messages of Mobile Network Prefix > MR MAY tunnel any routing messages of its mobile network > prefix. > > - Multicast Routing Message > MR MUST tunnel all control messages of multicast routing > protocols [9] [17] to HA." > > There is a sort of potential redundancy, or inconsistency or > incoherency here. Most routing messages in IPv6 (say a RIPng update) > are mostly multicasted. So, if all multicast routing messages MUST be > tunneled, then the first item in the list above becomes irrelevant. And RIPng messages uses link-local address for its source address. Regards, Takeshi > It is true that not all messages are multicasted. For example, an > "advertising" type of message will be multicasted, while a a more > "request" type of message will be directly unicasted. So, if > "advertising" messages are tunneled but not the "request" messages (a > freedom given by the MAY) then the routing protocol might not work as > before. > > "When MR is attached to a HA link, on the other hand, the HA SHOULD > route packets to the mobile network according to general IP > routing." > > Agree, but see below, there's a potential contradiction. > > "The HA MAY NOT have exact routing entries for the mobile network > prefix, but it knows the next-hop address of the mobile network > prefix from the registered prefix binding. If the MR-CoA is > configured by one of the HA's prefix, the MR-CoA becomes on-link > at HA link. The HA should route packets to the next-hop address > (MR-CoA) of the registered prefix binding." > > It is acknowledged above above that "general IP routing" is used > between HA and MR when MR is at home. It is also acknowledged > somewhere in the draft that when MR is at home, there won't be tunnels > between MR and HA. However, the paragraph right above indicates that > routing between MR and HA when MR at home happens according to an > entry that is the prefix binding, in the binding cache, i.e. Mobile > IPv6, i.e. not "general IP routing". > > For example, assume that MR stays at home for an extended while. Then > it will not change its CoA, thus won't send BU's, thus the prefix > entry in the binding cache expires, thus unreachable. We most > certainly don't want this. > > Of course, this again might revolve around binding cache and routing > table concepts, and what is where and so on. > > Section 6.3. Types of Tunneled Packets to MR: > "HA MAY tunnel any routing information obtained by routing > protocols. While away from HA link, MR MUST NOT accept any > routing messages tunneled by the HA. " > > Wouldn't this prohibit running any dynamic routing protocol between MR > and its home domain, when MR is away from home? Is this the intended > meaning? > > "Also, the MR SHOULD NOT accept any routing messages to update > its routing table except for default routes at a visiting link. > > This would imply that MR MAY accept routing messages to update its > routing table with default routes, those messages being received from > the visited link, thus routing interactions with the visited domain? > > Or is it that HA sends route updates to MR, MR is away from home, and > HA tells the MR which are the default routes in the visited link? > Thank you for the security overview, it looks reasonable, with quirks > (what exactly is prefix delegation? what are the threats? how are > these threats prevented?) > > Thanks again for the draft. > > -- > Message Classification: GBU > From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Tue Feb 25 07:36:21 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA27816 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1PCZ8T12665; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:35:09 +0100 Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1PCY4T12650 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:34:05 +0100 Received: from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate4.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate4) with ESMTP id h1PCXtTP019374; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 05:33:56 -0700 (MST) Received: [from il06exr06.mot.com (il06exr06.mot.com [129.188.137.136]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id FAA13092; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 05:33:57 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by il06exr06.mot.com (8.11.6/il06exr06) with ESMTP id h1PCXrd15542; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:33:54 -0600 Received: from nal.motlabs.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C3DD2EC86; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:33:52 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E5B62AF.7010801@nal.motlabs.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryuji Wakikawa Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] comments on draft-wakikawa-nemo-basic-00.txt References: <3E59FF2D.9040707@nal.motlabs.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 13:33:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ryuji, Ryuji Wakikawa wrote: >> Maybe you have a more detailed view on how HA intercepts packets >> destined to the registered mobile network prefix. Is it >> something like HA snoops at those packets? Or is it more like HA >> uses unsolicited broadcasted NA to pretend having MNN's L3 >> address? > > Since HA is an end-router for the prefix on the Internet (i.e. > advertising mobile network prefix by routing protocol), HA will > receive all packets destined to a mobile network prefix. During IP > forwarding procedure, HA looks up binding cache and finds a prefix > binding. Therefore, HA can tunnel all these packets to MR. Aha, I see. In that case, yes, it will work. But this reasoning practically eliminates the possibility of having an HA on the same link, different than the BR. I'm not saying HA MUST be separated from BR; I'm just saying that this is the consequence. Another thing that I'm not sure it will work with this forced BR/HA reasoning is whether another fixed router attached to the home link can talk to the MR when MR is not at home. Call this router FR. An FR is not connecting the home link to the Internet, it connects the home link to another link in the home domain. When FR talks to MR and MR is at home, FR uses some routing entries in its routing table to reach the MR. When FR talks to MR and MR is not at home, the traffic from FR will not go to the egress interface of the BR, but directly to MR. So, if the BR/HA does not do unsolicited NA for MR, it will not get a chance to intercept packets addressed to MR, so then FR can not reach MR. But on another hand, of course, an administrator can manually play with entries on FR to reach the egress interface of BR/HA and your "snooping" scheme would work. But yet on another hand, firewalling on BR would probably block some things. Overall, I guess I'm proposing to continue using "intercepting" based on unsolicited NAs and consider less "snooping" at packets that go through HA and that have not dst=HA. What do you think. >> For example, assume that MR stays at home for an extended while. >> Then it will not change its CoA, thus won't send BU's, thus the >> prefix entry in the binding cache expires, thus unreachable. We >> most certainly don't want this. > > In this protocol, there is no notion of deregistered BU. MR MUST > always sends BU to HA even if MR is at home. MR also sends BU > periodically not to expire the registered binding at HA. So we're right to conclude that MR periodically sends BU to HA even when MR is at home. Now, do you know of a routing protocol that periodically sends updates to neighboring routers when MR is at home? I guess some do? >> Wouldn't this prohibit running any dynamic routing protocol >> between MR and its home domain, when MR is away from home? Is >> this the intended meaning? > > > This "MUST NOT" is typo...This must change to "MAY". Thanks for > pointing out. Ah yes, that makes sense. -- Message Classification: GBU From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Wed Feb 26 02:20:19 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA16713 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 02:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1Q7G4T17997; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:16:04 +0100 Received: from motgate5.mot.com (motgate5.mot.com [144.189.100.105]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1PE0BT13247 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:00:12 +0100 Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate5.mot.com (Motorola/Motgate5) with ESMTP id h1PDxoUY027610 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 06:59:51 -0700 (MST) Received: [from az33exr02.mot.com (az33exr02.mot.com [10.64.251.232]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id HAA22448 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 07:00:05 -0700 (MST)] Received: from thorgal.crm.mot.com (thorgal.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.1]) by az33exr02.mot.com (8.11.6/az33exr02) with ESMTP id h1PE0jh17469; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 08:00:46 -0600 Received: from crm.mot.com (test9.crm.mot.com [140.101.173.239]) by thorgal.crm.mot.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696DC2EC86; Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:59:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <3E5B76DC.3060804@crm.mot.com> From: Alexandru Petrescu Organization: Motorola Labs - Paris User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3a) Gecko/20021212 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zhang Wenjie Cc: Subject: Re: [nemo] a question about "Node behind the MR" References: <200302250340.h1P3e6T09933@jessica.nal.motlabs.com> In-Reply-To: <200302250340.h1P3e6T09933@jessica.nal.motlabs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 14:59:56 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zhang Wenjie wrote: > Does "Node behind the MR"(draft-ernst-nemo-terminology-01.txt) > include FNs in the mobile network, except MNNs defined in the > draft? Thanks! Hello Zhang. I would suppose it very much depends on the context where you want to use the phrasing "node behind an MR". Node behind an MR could designate a Fixed Node fixed in the mobile network (i.e. Local Fixed Node), or a Mobile Node that moves around but still inside the Mobile Network (i.e. MNN/VMN as you say). In all cases, "behind MR" supposedly means "in the mobile network". Of course, it depends where you look from, or what perspective you take. This supposes that viewer looks from the outside the mobile network: the first thing it sees is a Mobile Router, and behind the MR it sees a node behind MR. If viewer is inside the mobile network, what s/he sees is a Mobile Router and behind the MR s/he sees the AR, so the AR is behind the MR. Maybe the terminology is not clear enough with respect to this. -- Message Classification: MIUO From nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Wed Feb 26 09:04:01 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05537 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1QE57T19955; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:05:07 +0100 Received: from hotmail.com (oe73.pav2.hotmail.com [64.4.36.207]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1QE4NT19943 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 15:04:24 +0100 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 26 Feb 2003 06:04:16 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [61.187.56.10] From: "hotmail" To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01C2DDE1.97466BB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: 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(localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1R2A6T24324; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 03:10:06 +0100 Received: from mailsrv.psl.com.sg (mailsrv.psl.com.sg [202.14.153.3]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h1R29UT24310 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 03:09:32 +0100 Received: from tchaikovsky.psl.com.sg (beethoven.psl.com.sg [10.81.113.99]) by mailsrv.psl.com.sg (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id h1R231A19464 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:03:01 +0800 (SGT) Received: by tchaikovsky.psl.com.sg (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D5E4A10E95DA; Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:34:58 +0800 (SGT) From: Chan-Wah Ng To: IETF-NEMO Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: Panasonic Singapore Laboratories Message-Id: <1046313298.1702.7.camel@beethoven> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.1- Subject: [nemo] New draft on multihoming scenarios Sender: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: nemo-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: nemo@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Mobile networks discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: 27 Feb 2003 10:34:58 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, Before the draft actually appear on the IETF repository, I'll like to inform the group of the new draft submitted discussing issues on multihoming in mobile network. You should be able to access the draft using the following URL: http://www.psl.com.sg/draft-ng-nemo-multihoming-issues-00.txt This draft first describe various different configuration of multihomed mobile network, and some deployment examples. Next, we identify issues that arise in supporting multihomed mobile network, and discusses some possible approaches to facilitate multi-homing. The objective of this document is to precipitate discussions in the working group in issues regarding multihoming in NEMO. Hence all comments and inputs are welcomed and greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- Chan-Wah Ng Panasonic Singapore Laboratories From test-admin@nal.motlabs.com Fri Feb 28 23:11:32 2003 Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (dns1.nal.motlabs.com [195.212.111.242]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21835 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2003 23:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from jessica.nal.motlabs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by jessica.nal.motlabs.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h214DLT20350 for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 05:13:22 +0100 Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 05:13:22 +0100 Message-Id: <200303010413.h214DLT20350@jessica.nal.motlabs.com> Subject: nal.motlabs.com mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@jessica.nal.motlabs.com To: nemo-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes X-Ack: no Sender: test-admin@nal.motlabs.com Errors-To: test-admin@nal.motlabs.com X-BeenThere: test@nal.motlabs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your nal.motlabs.com mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, nemo-request@nal.motlabs.com) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@jessica.nal.motlabs.com. Thanks! Passwords for nemo-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- nemo@nal.motlabs.com pupafo http://www.nal.motlabs.com/mailman/options/nemo/nemo-archive%40lists.ietf.org