From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 01 00:28:38 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: <mip6@ietf.org>,
	<nemo@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:27:17 +1000
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Subject: [nemo] Issue 93 - way forward
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Folks, 

Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on issue 93, the
NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few days ago to discuss how
to address the lack of concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was
to find a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that avoids the
technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of both sides.

The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 

The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases (presence of TLV or
not). To do that two different mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary
of each one below. 

1. Implicit signalling

The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to switch on whether
the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a TLV header. Effectively, the
first byte is the version field of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the
obvious meaning, for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers
that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 means TLV, 4 means
IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like MPLS and it is
considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in our case we use a
specific port number for DSMIP therefore no one who does not implement the
DSMIP spec should receive this. 

So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look something like this:

Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)

Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate that this byte is
used to identify the format of the following information (IP header or TLV)

Type is the message type 
length is the message length

2. Explicit signalling

In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when set, indicates
that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
  IP
  UDP
  TLV
   ...etc
when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to use the
following format:
  IP
  UDP
  ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 

Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default mechanism for
sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send the BU in the current UDP
encapsulation format witohut the TLV but if the request is accepted then
data packets are sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 

In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA and the MN
support the negotiation mechanism and one default format. So, all
implementations have to support the current format of UDP encapsulation as a
base. This allows for interoperability. 

In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in alternative 1,
we only need to define Type and Length fields with one byte reserved.


Hesham






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 01 00:32:35 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: "'Hesham Soliman'" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>, <mip6@ietf.org>,
	<nemo@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 14:31:27 +1000
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
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Sorry, I forgot to mention the obvious, please send your comments ASAP so I
can update the draft. 

Hesham 

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
 > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
 > To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > Subject: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
 > 
 > Folks, 
 > 
 > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
 > issue 93, the
 > NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few days ago 
 > to discuss how
 > to address the lack of concensus on this issue. The aim of 
 > the meeting was
 > to find a way of accomodating both sides with one solution 
 > that avoids the
 > technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of both sides.
 > 
 > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 
 > 
 > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
 > (presence of TLV or
 > not). To do that two different mechanisms were proposed, 
 > I'll list a summary
 > of each one below. 
 > 
 > 1. Implicit signalling
 > 
 > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
 > switch on whether
 > the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a TLV header. 
 > Effectively, the
 > first byte is the version field of the IP header. versions 4 
 > or 6 have the
 > obvious meaning, for the TLV header we can use one of the 
 > version numbers
 > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
 > means TLV, 4 means
 > IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
 > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
 > MPLS and it is
 > considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in our case we use a
 > specific port number for DSMIP therefore no one who does not 
 > implement the
 > DSMIP spec should receive this. 
 > 
 > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
 > something like this:
 > 
 > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 > 
 > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
 > that this byte is
 > used to identify the format of the following information (IP 
 > header or TLV)
 > 
 > Type is the message type 
 > length is the message length
 > 
 > 2. Explicit signalling
 > 
 > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
 > set, indicates
 > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 >   IP
 >   UDP
 >   TLV
 >    ...etc
 > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to use the
 > following format:
 >   IP
 >   UDP
 >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
 > 
 > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
 > mechanism for
 > sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send the BU in 
 > the current UDP
 > encapsulation format witohut the TLV but if the request is 
 > accepted then
 > data packets are sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
 > 
 > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
 > and the MN
 > support the negotiation mechanism and one default format. So, all
 > implementations have to support the current format of UDP 
 > encapsulation as a
 > base. This allows for interoperability. 
 > 
 > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
 > alternative 1,
 > we only need to define Type and Length fields with one byte reserved.
 > 
 > 
 > Hesham
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Mip6 mailing list
 > Mip6@ietf.org
 > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
 > 






From qaloof@info-mass.com Sun Jul 01 00:48:35 2007
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 02 05:59:36 2007
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Issue 93 - way forward
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:58:17 +0300
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From: <Markku.Ala-Vannesluoma@nokia.com>
To: <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>, <mip6@ietf.org>, <nemo@ietf.org>
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Hi,

Nice to see this issue finally moving forward.=20
So in mechanism 1, how would the MN signal the HA when to use TLV? Would
the MN just start using the TLV
option and the HA enables it as well when the first TLV tunneled packet
is received from the MN? How does the MN even
know the HA supports the TLV unless the support in mandated? ICMP error?
Error code in BACK?

I'm leaning towards the explicit signalling. IMHO, having the new flags
in BU/BACK is much cleaner approach.

Cheers,
Markku

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]=20
>Sent: 01 July, 2007 07:27
>To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: [nemo] Issue 93 - way forward
>
>Folks,=20
>
>Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on issue=20
>93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few=20
>days ago to discuss how to address the lack of concensus on=20
>this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find a way of=20
>accomodating both sides with one solution that avoids the=20
>technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of both sides.
>
>The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.=20
>
>The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases=20
>(presence of TLV or not). To do that two different mechanisms=20
>were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below.=20
>
>1. Implicit signalling
>
>The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to=20
>switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a=20
>TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field=20
>of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning,=20
>for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers that=20
>are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 means TLV,=20
>4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.=20
>Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like MPLS=20
>and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in=20
>our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP therefore no=20
>one who does not implement the DSMIP spec should receive this.=20
>
>So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look something=20
>like this:
>
>Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
>
>Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate that=20
>this byte is used to identify the format of the following=20
>information (IP header or TLV)
>
>Type is the message type
>length is the message length
>
>2. Explicit signalling
>
>In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when=20
>set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
>  IP
>  UDP
>  TLV
>   ...etc
>when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to=20
>use the following format:
>  IP
>  UDP
>  ...etc (i.e. no TLV).=20
>
>Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default=20
>mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send=20
>the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut the TLV=20
>but if the request is accepted then data packets are sent as=20
>agreed during the BU/BA exchange.=20
>
>In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA=20
>and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default=20
>format. So, all implementations have to support the current=20
>format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for=20
>interoperability.=20
>
>In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in=20
>alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields=20
>with one byte reserved.
>
>
>Hesham
>
>
>
>




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 02 07:54:45 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: <Markku.Ala-Vannesluoma@nokia.com>,
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Issue 93 - way forward
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 > Nice to see this issue finally moving forward. 
 > So in mechanism 1, how would the MN signal the HA when to 
 > use TLV? Would
 > the MN just start using the TLV
 > option and the HA enables it as well when the first TLV 
 > tunneled packet
 > is received from the MN? How does the MN even
 > know the HA supports the TLV unless the support in mandated? 
 > ICMP error?
 > Error code in BACK?

=> There is no signalling in this option, the packet is just parsed based on
the first byte. If the HA doesn't support the TLV then it would have to send
an ICMP error. You can't send an error in the BA because the error is in the
data flow, which happens after the BU/BA.

 > 
 > I'm leaning towards the explicit signalling. IMHO, having 
 > the new flags
 > in BU/BACK is much cleaner approach.

=> I think it's cleaner too. 

Hesham

 > 
 > Cheers,
 > Markku
 > 
 > >-----Original Message-----
 > >From: ext Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
 > >Sent: 01 July, 2007 07:27
 > >To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > >Subject: [nemo] Issue 93 - way forward
 > >
 > >Folks, 
 > >
 > >Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on issue 
 > >93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few 
 > >days ago to discuss how to address the lack of concensus on 
 > >this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find a way of 
 > >accomodating both sides with one solution that avoids the 
 > >technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of both sides.
 > >
 > >The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 
 > >
 > >The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
 > >(presence of TLV or not). To do that two different mechanisms 
 > >were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below. 
 > >
 > >1. Implicit signalling
 > >
 > >The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
 > >switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a 
 > >TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field 
 > >of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning, 
 > >for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers that 
 > >are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 means TLV, 
 > >4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
 > >Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like MPLS 
 > >and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in 
 > >our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP therefore no 
 > >one who does not implement the DSMIP spec should receive this. 
 > >
 > >So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look something 
 > >like this:
 > >
 > >Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 > >
 > >Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate that 
 > >this byte is used to identify the format of the following 
 > >information (IP header or TLV)
 > >
 > >Type is the message type
 > >length is the message length
 > >
 > >2. Explicit signalling
 > >
 > >In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
 > >set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 > >  IP
 > >  UDP
 > >  TLV
 > >   ...etc
 > >when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to 
 > >use the following format:
 > >  IP
 > >  UDP
 > >  ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
 > >
 > >Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
 > >mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send 
 > >the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut the TLV 
 > >but if the request is accepted then data packets are sent as 
 > >agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
 > >
 > >In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
 > >and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default 
 > >format. So, all implementations have to support the current 
 > >format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for 
 > >interoperability. 
 > >
 > >In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
 > >alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields 
 > >with one byte reserved.
 > >
 > >
 > >Hesham
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > 






From ryug@westmont.edu Mon Jul 02 08:13:56 2007
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Subject: NET blog and risk boring the readers I have here or should I split it onto a new blog for Mac and Rails related content?
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ERMX Grabs Edge Of US Trade With China And Moves Into Nitride Devices!

EntreMetrix Inc. (ERMX)
$0.16

Congress's push to increase trade agreements with China gives ERMX huge
advantage as they enter joint venture to manufacture Nitride Devices for
military, energy and technological solutions in China. This is huge. Get
on ERMX Monday!

chewing on apples-getting healthier everyday.

Does anyone know how good MS's verification on shared files are and what
privileges to be transferred locally are?
For a time it was considered OK, and the government only got involved
when it led to siginificant losses for large numbers of shareholders.
Comparisons have been drawn between Shoulders and Babe Ruth in their
respective sports and I'd say the comparison isn't that far off. For a
full list of the new features and to download the upgrade see the
Parallels site here. I'd also like to mention that Jim Shoulders will be
the first subject of Legends of Rodeo, a new feature here on About
Rodeo. " I'm kind of a dork for mixed-use complexes, and this one looks
really nice, if a bit too much like San Jose's Santana Row.




From mext-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 02 08:46:51 2007
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From: "Jean-Michel Combes" <jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com>
To: "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya@ieee.org>
Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
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Hi Behcet,

2007/6/30, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>:
>
> Hi Jari,
>   In fact HA reliability work is almost over. I think the current draft is
> expected to go for WGLC soon and the subteam is almost closed. I don't think
> it would take Aug 08 to complete this work. HA reliability could be
> completely removed from this charter.

IMHO, I am not so sure. That depends whether you want, concerning the
IPsec failover, a MIP6 WG based solution or a general one (i.e. IFare
work) included the draft.

>
> Kind regards,
>
> Behcet
>

[snip]

Best regards.

JMC.

_______________________________________________
MEXT mailing list
MEXT@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext



From mext-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 02 09:10:41 2007
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From: Wesley Eddy <weddy@grc.nasa.gov>
To: Jean-Michel Combes <jeanmichel.combes@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
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On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 02:46:15PM +0200, Jean-Michel Combes wrote:
> Hi Behcet,
> 
> 2007/6/30, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>:
> >
> >Hi Jari,
> >  In fact HA reliability work is almost over. I think the current draft is
> >expected to go for WGLC soon and the subteam is almost closed. I don't 
> >think
> >it would take Aug 08 to complete this work. HA reliability could be
> >completely removed from this charter.
> 
> IMHO, I am not so sure. That depends whether you want, concerning the
> IPsec failover, a MIP6 WG based solution or a general one (i.e. IFare
> work) included the draft.
> 


I agree.  When I read it last, it seemed like to meet all of its stated
capabilities, the HA reliability work would need to block on the IFARE
work, but perhaps it was just unclear and my understanding was wrong.
Other than this part, it did seem mostly complete to me.  Specifically,
there didn't seem to be detailed enough information on the IPsec state
synchronization mechanism within the hareliability draft itself to
implement both interoperable, and fully-functional solutions.


-- 
Wesley M. Eddy
Verizon Federal Network Systems

_______________________________________________
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On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 11:34:51AM +0200, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> >
> >I understand that the MIPv6 basic RO security isn't IPsec based, but I
> >don't see this as a good reason not to require the NEMO RO to be
> >securable through IPsec.  The MIPv6 RO security wasn't built on IPsec
> >because it was felt that the needed PKI structure didn't exist.  With
> >recent work like BTNS, I believe this concern could be revisited.
> 
> I am not sure BTNS could provide the security required by a nemo ro 
> solution. BAsically BTNS is an unathenticated mode of using IKE/IPSec. 
> The whole point of RO security is proving address/prefix ownership, 
> which is exactly what btns lacks. I mean, btns approach is basically a 
> leap of faith approach, where basically it makes sure that the 
> communication peer remains the same that the one contacted at the 
> begining of the communication. But in nemo RO this is not enough, 
> basically becasue the one that initiated the contact maybe an attakcer 
> trying to hijack a prefix. so, i seriously doubt btns could do the work 
> needed for securing nemo ro....
> 


I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.  RO is for
application flows and the RO security ensures that a node you can talk
to over the HA tunnels is the same node that is claiming to be at some
other topologically-correct address.  My understanding is that the
entire reason IPsec wasn't chosen to secure this is that
pre-configuration of trust anchors or other credentials between MNs and
CNs was seen as impossible; but now BTNS enables SAs to be configured
without this pre-configuration, so IPsec should become viable for RO
security, by my (possibly flawed) reasoning.

If IPsec SAs for application flows are set up using Home Addresses
through the bi-directional tunnel (when necessary, using BTNS PAD
entries), then they should later be able to move to topologically
correct addresses (via multihoming capabilities of MOBIKE).  Can you
clear up what I'm missing here, and what would be wrong with this?

If it isn't a completely braindead idea (and it may be ... I just don't
see why yet, because your previous criticism didn't make sense), I can
add more detail and compare to the current standard.

-- 
Wesley M. Eddy
Verizon Federal Network Systems




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Thread-Topic: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
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Hi Hesham,=20

Speaking of obvious, I guess we need to make sure we word this 'the
first nibble' as opposed to the first byte, since we are talking about
the version which is only the first 4 bits of the payload within UDP :)


> > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
> >   IP
> >   UDP
> >   TLV

Does the tunnel IP mean IPv4 only or do you plan to specify it for both
families? I'm just concerned that we might not be symmetrical, which was
a strong point of your original draft.

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
>Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 9:31 PM
>To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
>
>Sorry, I forgot to mention the obvious, please send your comments ASAP
so I
>can update the draft.
>
>Hesham
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
> > To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on
> > issue 93, the
> > NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few days ago
> > to discuss how
> > to address the lack of concensus on this issue. The aim of
> > the meeting was
> > to find a way of accomodating both sides with one solution
> > that avoids the
> > technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of both sides.
> >
> > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.
> >
> > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases
> > (presence of TLV or
> > not). To do that two different mechanisms were proposed,
> > I'll list a summary
> > of each one below.
> >
> > 1. Implicit signalling
> >
> > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to
> > switch on whether
> > the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a TLV header.
> > Effectively, the
> > first byte is the version field of the IP header. versions 4
> > or 6 have the
> > obvious meaning, for the TLV header we can use one of the
> > version numbers
> > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0
> > means TLV, 4 means
> > IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.
> > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like
> > MPLS and it is
> > considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in our case we use
a
> > specific port number for DSMIP therefore no one who does not
> > implement the
> > DSMIP spec should receive this.
> >
> > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look
> > something like this:
> >
> > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
> >
> > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate
> > that this byte is
> > used to identify the format of the following information (IP
> > header or TLV)
> >
> > Type is the message type
> > length is the message length
> >
> > 2. Explicit signalling
> >
> > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when
> > set, indicates
> > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
> >   IP
> >   UDP
> >   TLV
> >    ...etc
> > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to use
the
> > following format:
> >   IP
> >   UDP
> >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).
> >
> > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default
> > mechanism for
> > sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send the BU in
> > the current UDP
> > encapsulation format witohut the TLV but if the request is
> > accepted then
> > data packets are sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.
> >
> > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA
> > and the MN
> > support the negotiation mechanism and one default format. So, all
> > implementations have to support the current format of UDP
> > encapsulation as a
> > base. This allows for interoperability.
> >
> > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in
> > alternative 1,
> > we only need to define Type and Length fields with one byte
reserved.
> >
> >
> > Hesham
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mip6 mailing list
> > Mip6@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
> >
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Mip6 mailing list
>Mip6@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6




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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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 > Speaking of obvious, I guess we need to make sure we word this 'the
 > first nibble' as opposed to the first byte, since we are 
 > talking about
 > the version which is only the first 4 bits of the payload 
 > within UDP :)

=> Right, once I get a clear idea of which option we're going for we can
name things accordingly. So far there was one preference mentioned for
option 2. Can you say which one you prefer? 

 > 
 > 
 > > > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 > > >   IP
 > > >   UDP
 > > >   TLV
 > 
 > Does the tunnel IP mean IPv4 only or do you plan to specify 
 > it for both
 > families? 

=> To avoid confusion, the text you quoted above was listing the order of
headers not the different tunnel types. But to answer your question, the
tunnel IP would cover both the same way we have it today. So IP/UDP/IP works
regardless of the IP version. I think the same can be done for the TLV but I
suspect people would want to define different types for the Type field. 

Hesham

I'm just concerned that we might not be 
 > symmetrical, which was
 > a strong point of your original draft.
 > 
 > Pascal
 > 
 > >-----Original Message-----
 > >From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
 > >Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 9:31 PM
 > >To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > >Subject: RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
 > >
 > >Sorry, I forgot to mention the obvious, please send your 
 > comments ASAP
 > so I
 > >can update the draft.
 > >
 > >Hesham
 > >
 > > > -----Original Message-----
 > > > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
 > > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
 > > > To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > > > Subject: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
 > > >
 > > > Folks,
 > > >
 > > > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on
 > > > issue 93, the
 > > > NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few days ago
 > > > to discuss how
 > > > to address the lack of concensus on this issue. The aim of
 > > > the meeting was
 > > > to find a way of accomodating both sides with one solution
 > > > that avoids the
 > > > technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of 
 > both sides.
 > > >
 > > > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.
 > > >
 > > > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases
 > > > (presence of TLV or
 > > > not). To do that two different mechanisms were proposed,
 > > > I'll list a summary
 > > > of each one below.
 > > >
 > > > 1. Implicit signalling
 > > >
 > > > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to
 > > > switch on whether
 > > > the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a TLV header.
 > > > Effectively, the
 > > > first byte is the version field of the IP header. versions 4
 > > > or 6 have the
 > > > obvious meaning, for the TLV header we can use one of the
 > > > version numbers
 > > > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0
 > > > means TLV, 4 means
 > > > IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.
 > > > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like
 > > > MPLS and it is
 > > > considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in our 
 > case we use
 > a
 > > > specific port number for DSMIP therefore no one who does not
 > > > implement the
 > > > DSMIP spec should receive this.
 > > >
 > > > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look
 > > > something like this:
 > > >
 > > > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 > > >
 > > > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate
 > > > that this byte is
 > > > used to identify the format of the following information (IP
 > > > header or TLV)
 > > >
 > > > Type is the message type
 > > > length is the message length
 > > >
 > > > 2. Explicit signalling
 > > >
 > > > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when
 > > > set, indicates
 > > > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 > > >   IP
 > > >   UDP
 > > >   TLV
 > > >    ...etc
 > > > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to use
 > the
 > > > following format:
 > > >   IP
 > > >   UDP
 > > >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).
 > > >
 > > > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default
 > > > mechanism for
 > > > sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send the BU in
 > > > the current UDP
 > > > encapsulation format witohut the TLV but if the request is
 > > > accepted then
 > > > data packets are sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.
 > > >
 > > > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA
 > > > and the MN
 > > > support the negotiation mechanism and one default format. So, all
 > > > implementations have to support the current format of UDP
 > > > encapsulation as a
 > > > base. This allows for interoperability.
 > > >
 > > > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in
 > > > alternative 1,
 > > > we only need to define Type and Length fields with one byte
 > reserved.
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > Hesham
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > Mip6 mailing list
 > > > Mip6@ietf.org
 > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
 > > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >_______________________________________________
 > >Mip6 mailing list
 > >Mip6@ietf.org
 > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
 > 






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From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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Subject: [nemo] Re: [MPI]Comments on draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-00.txt
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El 02/07/2007, a las 20:23, Wesley Eddy escribi=F3:

> On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 11:34:51AM +0200, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>>>
>>> I understand that the MIPv6 basic RO security isn't IPsec based, =20
>>> but I
>>> don't see this as a good reason not to require the NEMO RO to be
>>> securable through IPsec.  The MIPv6 RO security wasn't built on =20
>>> IPsec
>>> because it was felt that the needed PKI structure didn't exist.  =20
>>> With
>>> recent work like BTNS, I believe this concern could be revisited.
>>
>> I am not sure BTNS could provide the security required by a nemo ro
>> solution. BAsically BTNS is an unathenticated mode of using IKE/=20
>> IPSec.
>> The whole point of RO security is proving address/prefix ownership,
>> which is exactly what btns lacks. I mean, btns approach is =20
>> basically a
>> leap of faith approach, where basically it makes sure that the
>> communication peer remains the same that the one contacted at the
>> begining of the communication. But in nemo RO this is not enough,
>> basically becasue the one that initiated the contact maybe an =20
>> attakcer
>> trying to hijack a prefix. so, i seriously doubt btns could do the =20=

>> work
>> needed for securing nemo ro....
>>
>
>
> I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.  RO is for
> application flows and the RO security ensures that a node you can talk
> to over the HA tunnels is the same node that is claiming to be at some
> other topologically-correct address.

not only that, but also that the node is the actual owner of the home =20=

address (in some sense). I mean, MIPv6 protects against the so called =20=

time shifted attacks, where the attacker is able to intercept packets =20=

along the path for a short period and then moves and continue with =20
the attack (this is the motivation why the RR check need to be =20
performed periodically)

so, in order to provide proper security for RO we need to provide =20
some form of address/prefix ownership proof.

>   My understanding is that the
> entire reason IPsec wasn't chosen to secure this is that
> pre-configuration of trust anchors or other credentials between MNs =20=

> and
> CNs was seen as impossible;

exactly

> but now BTNS enables SAs to be configured
> without this pre-configuration,

right but doing so, it looses some features and one of such features =20
i what is needed for securing RO afaiu

BTNS lacks of any authentication and data origin proof capabilities =20
and this is a critical feature for securing RO

it would be possible to add such features adding additional stuff =20
(like using CGAs in IKE) but this is certainly not btns and i don't =20
think it worth the complexity and probably some nemo RO specific =20
security solutions make more sense

> so IPsec should become viable for RO
> security, by my (possibly flawed) reasoning.
>
> If IPsec SAs for application flows are set up using Home Addresses
> through the bi-directional tunnel (when necessary, using BTNS PAD
> entries), then they should later be able to move to topologically
> correct addresses (via multihoming capabilities of MOBIKE).  Can you
> clear up what I'm missing here, and what would be wrong with this?
>

that there is no address ownership proof in this scheme
btns does not provides that and mobike assumes a competelly different =20=

scenario. Mobike afaiu, i designed for the roadwarrior case i.e. an =20
endpoint with tunnel mode with a security gateway with preshared =20
trust, whcih would not apply for the any-to-any nemo RO scenario that =20=

we are considering here

just for reference, an excellent description of the address ownership =20=

and time shifted attacks and related RO security background can be =20
found in RFC4225 and for btns applicability scenarios see http://=20
www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-btns-prob-and-applic-05.txt

regards, marcelo

> If it isn't a completely braindead idea (and it may be ... I just =20
> don't
> see why yet, because your previous criticism didn't make sense), I can
> add more detail and compare to the current standard.
>
> --=20
> Wesley M. Eddy
> Verizon Federal Network Systems
>
> #############################################################
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 03 05:56:56 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - concensus call
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Folks, 

Please express a choice, preferrably with reasons for one of the two options
below. I'd really like to get this in the draft before the deadline. 

Thanks, 
Hesham

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
 > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
 > To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > Subject: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
 > 
 > Folks, 
 > 
 > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
 > issue 93, the
 > NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few days ago 
 > to discuss how
 > to address the lack of concensus on this issue. The aim of 
 > the meeting was
 > to find a way of accomodating both sides with one solution 
 > that avoids the
 > technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of both sides.
 > 
 > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 
 > 
 > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
 > (presence of TLV or
 > not). To do that two different mechanisms were proposed, 
 > I'll list a summary
 > of each one below. 
 > 
 > 1. Implicit signalling
 > 
 > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
 > switch on whether
 > the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a TLV header. 
 > Effectively, the
 > first byte is the version field of the IP header. versions 4 
 > or 6 have the
 > obvious meaning, for the TLV header we can use one of the 
 > version numbers
 > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
 > means TLV, 4 means
 > IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
 > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
 > MPLS and it is
 > considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in our case we use a
 > specific port number for DSMIP therefore no one who does not 
 > implement the
 > DSMIP spec should receive this. 
 > 
 > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
 > something like this:
 > 
 > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 > 
 > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
 > that this byte is
 > used to identify the format of the following information (IP 
 > header or TLV)
 > 
 > Type is the message type 
 > length is the message length
 > 
 > 2. Explicit signalling
 > 
 > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
 > set, indicates
 > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 >   IP
 >   UDP
 >   TLV
 >    ...etc
 > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to use the
 > following format:
 >   IP
 >   UDP
 >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
 > 
 > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
 > mechanism for
 > sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send the BU in 
 > the current UDP
 > encapsulation format witohut the TLV but if the request is 
 > accepted then
 > data packets are sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
 > 
 > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
 > and the MN
 > support the negotiation mechanism and one default format. So, all
 > implementations have to support the current format of UDP 
 > encapsulation as a
 > base. This allows for interoperability. 
 > 
 > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
 > alternative 1,
 > we only need to define Type and Length fields with one byte reserved.
 > 
 > 
 > Hesham
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Mip6 mailing list
 > Mip6@ietf.org
 > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
 > 






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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - concensus call
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
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Hi Hesham:

Option 1 is fine with me. Note that we could collapse the format and the
type by keeping the type less than x45 which leave ample space to define
many TLVs. We have to define the error case when the HA does not support
a TLV from the MN which is compatible with eth case when the HA supports
only IPv4 and IPv6.

OTOH, option 2 seems to demand that we define the interaction if one end
supports one value of the flag and the other end does not, on top of the
case where a given value for the TLV type is not supported by one party.
Usually that ends up with requesting that the HA supports both and be
more complex.

Do I miss something?

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:56 AM
>To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
>Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - concensus call
>
>Folks,
>
>Please express a choice, preferrably with reasons for one of the two
options
>below. I'd really like to get this in the draft before the deadline.
>
>Thanks,
>Hesham
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
> > To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on
> > issue 93, the
> > NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few days ago
> > to discuss how
> > to address the lack of concensus on this issue. The aim of
> > the meeting was
> > to find a way of accomodating both sides with one solution
> > that avoids the
> > technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of both sides.
> >
> > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.
> >
> > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases
> > (presence of TLV or
> > not). To do that two different mechanisms were proposed,
> > I'll list a summary
> > of each one below.
> >
> > 1. Implicit signalling
> >
> > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to
> > switch on whether
> > the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a TLV header.
> > Effectively, the
> > first byte is the version field of the IP header. versions 4
> > or 6 have the
> > obvious meaning, for the TLV header we can use one of the
> > version numbers
> > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0
> > means TLV, 4 means
> > IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.
> > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like
> > MPLS and it is
> > considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in our case we use
a
> > specific port number for DSMIP therefore no one who does not
> > implement the
> > DSMIP spec should receive this.
> >
> > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look
> > something like this:
> >
> > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
> >
> > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate
> > that this byte is
> > used to identify the format of the following information (IP
> > header or TLV)
> >
> > Type is the message type
> > length is the message length
> >
> > 2. Explicit signalling
> >
> > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when
> > set, indicates
> > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
> >   IP
> >   UDP
> >   TLV
> >    ...etc
> > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to use
the
> > following format:
> >   IP
> >   UDP
> >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).
> >
> > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default
> > mechanism for
> > sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send the BU in
> > the current UDP
> > encapsulation format witohut the TLV but if the request is
> > accepted then
> > data packets are sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.
> >
> > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA
> > and the MN
> > support the negotiation mechanism and one default format. So, all
> > implementations have to support the current format of UDP
> > encapsulation as a
> > base. This allows for interoperability.
> >
> > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in
> > alternative 1,
> > we only need to define Type and Length fields with one byte
reserved.
> >
> >
> > Hesham
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Mip6 mailing list
> > Mip6@ietf.org
> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
> >




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 03 07:20:27 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: "'Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)'" <pthubert@cisco.com>, <mip6@ietf.org>,
	<nemo@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - concensus call
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 > Option 1 is fine with me. Note that we could collapse the 
 > format and the
 > type by keeping the type less than x45 which leave ample 
 > space to define
 > many TLVs. We have to define the error case when the HA does 
 > not support
 > a TLV from the MN which is compatible with eth case when the 
 > HA supports
 > only IPv4 and IPv6.

=> Yes that goes back to the previous comment made about option 1. I think
the error case would have to be an ICMP message because this is an error on
the data path not the signalling path. 

 > 
 > OTOH, option 2 seems to demand that we define the 
 > interaction if one end
 > supports one value of the flag and the other end does not, 

=> No, it doesn't do that, our suggestion from the conference call was to
have 
a base format that MUST always be supported, in addition to the negotiation
mechanism. 
I'll record your preference for option 1 though unless you change it. 

Hesham

 > 
 > >-----Original Message-----
 > >From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
 > >Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 11:56 AM
 > >To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > >Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Issue 93 - concensus call
 > >
 > >Folks,
 > >
 > >Please express a choice, preferrably with reasons for one of the two
 > options
 > >below. I'd really like to get this in the draft before the deadline.
 > >
 > >Thanks,
 > >Hesham
 > >
 > > > -----Original Message-----
 > > > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
 > > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
 > > > To: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > > > Subject: [Mip6] Issue 93 - way forward
 > > >
 > > > Folks,
 > > >
 > > > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on
 > > > issue 93, the
 > > > NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference a few days ago
 > > > to discuss how
 > > > to address the lack of concensus on this issue. The aim of
 > > > the meeting was
 > > > to find a way of accomodating both sides with one solution
 > > > that avoids the
 > > > technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility concerns of 
 > both sides.
 > > >
 > > > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.
 > > >
 > > > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases
 > > > (presence of TLV or
 > > > not). To do that two different mechanisms were proposed,
 > > > I'll list a summary
 > > > of each one below.
 > > >
 > > > 1. Implicit signalling
 > > >
 > > > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to
 > > > switch on whether
 > > > the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a TLV header.
 > > > Effectively, the
 > > > first byte is the version field of the IP header. versions 4
 > > > or 6 have the
 > > > obvious meaning, for the TLV header we can use one of the
 > > > version numbers
 > > > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0
 > > > means TLV, 4 means
 > > > IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.
 > > > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like
 > > > MPLS and it is
 > > > considered a hack by some people on the IESG but in our 
 > case we use
 > a
 > > > specific port number for DSMIP therefore no one who does not
 > > > implement the
 > > > DSMIP spec should receive this.
 > > >
 > > > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look
 > > > something like this:
 > > >
 > > > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 > > >
 > > > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate
 > > > that this byte is
 > > > used to identify the format of the following information (IP
 > > > header or TLV)
 > > >
 > > > Type is the message type
 > > > length is the message length
 > > >
 > > > 2. Explicit signalling
 > > >
 > > > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when
 > > > set, indicates
 > > > that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 > > >   IP
 > > >   UDP
 > > >   TLV
 > > >    ...etc
 > > > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants to use
 > the
 > > > following format:
 > > >   IP
 > > >   UDP
 > > >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).
 > > >
 > > > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default
 > > > mechanism for
 > > > sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always send the BU in
 > > > the current UDP
 > > > encapsulation format witohut the TLV but if the request is
 > > > accepted then
 > > > data packets are sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.
 > > >
 > > > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA
 > > > and the MN
 > > > support the negotiation mechanism and one default format. So, all
 > > > implementations have to support the current format of UDP
 > > > encapsulation as a
 > > > base. This allows for interoperability.
 > > >
 > > > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in
 > > > alternative 1,
 > > > we only need to define Type and Length fields with one byte
 > reserved.
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > Hesham
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > Mip6 mailing list
 > > > Mip6@ietf.org
 > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
 > > >
 > 






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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: DS-MIP6 -
	Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Sri Gundavelli \(sgundave\)" <sgundave@cisco.com>,
	"Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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	Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>,
	Basavaraj Patil <basavaraj.patil@nsn.com>
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Hi Sri:

We went through this KA discussion. Even discussed having an async
message sent by the HA with a short TTL or something so that it would
pass the NAT but not reach the MN, so the MN could be left sleeping and
save battery. But at the end of the day, BU/BA seemed to do the job
quite fine, bringing the value of revalidating the BCE when a simple
ping would be total loss.

Do you have an issue with that? On which side?

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
>Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:29 AM
>To: 'Jari Arkko'
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; 'Mobile IPv6 Mailing List'; 'Henrik Levkowetz';
'Basavaraj Patil'
>Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: DS-MIP6 -
Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
>
>Hi Jari,
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]
>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 2:03 AM
>> To: Sri Gundavelli
>> Cc: 'Basavaraj Patil'; 'Henrik Levkowetz'; nemo@ietf.org;
>> 'Mobile IPv6 Mailing List'
>> Subject: Re: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: DS-MIP6 -
>> Consensus calltoclose issue 93
>>
>> Sri,
>>
>> > 4. Tunnel Keep Alive message
>> >
>> > When DSMIP chose IPv4 UDP transport for NAT traversal,
>> > the need for keepalive messaging between the tunnel
>> > peers for keeping the NAT bindings came up. The authors
>> > of the draft chose to use MIP6 signaling messages BU/BA
>> > as a way to refresh the keepalive messages. IMO, having
>> > a simple keepalive messages is lot more useful than an
>> > expensive BU/BA. Most 3519 implementation today optimize
>> > on this, by eliminating the keepalives when there is
>> > traffic. We cant do such optimizations with BU/BA.
>> >
>>
>> I don't see why not. First of all, you can always skip
>> a keepalive when there is other traffic. Secondly, you
>> can skip the entire contents and send an empty container.
>> Etc.
>>
>
>That's what I meant, when using a KA message, it can always
>be skipped when there is traffic. The KA processing is not
>expensive as compared to the use of BU/BA for the same purpose.
>
>
>> > 6. Why do we need GRE Header ?
>> >
>> > We need GRE tunnel header for various reasons, when ever we
>> > carry multiple streams within a tunnel, the GRE header for its
>> > mature header semantics, the key field and the sequence number
>> > field is useful.
>> >
>>
>> Hmm. Reading on...
>>
>> > We have some NEMO use cases where we use the GRE key to tag
>> > certain MNP flows, and the tunnel peers use these keys as a
>> > form of a selector for differential treatment. Its a color
>> > code.
>> >
>> > Use cases:
>> >
>> > a.) Overlapping private IPv4 addressing support on the MAGs
>> >     (PMIP6 Usage)
>> >
>>
>> From your list, this sounds like the most valid reason. But are
>> there other ways to deal with this? Can you expand on the
>> requirement and describe why there are no other ways to
>> deal with it?
>>
>
>This is for supporting the overlapping private IPv4 address
>scenario. As Vijay was saying, GRE is the most simplest way
>to solve this. It has the proper semantics in the header,
>such as GRE key etc. There are many MIP4 implementations that
>use this mechanism for tagging the flows between the PDSN and
>the HA.
>
>
>> > c.) Carrying other protocol packets (Lets say, IPX packets)
>> >     in a MIP tunnel.
>> >
>>
>> This is not a very convincing use case. We can always encapsulate
>> L2TP etc. inside if we really want to.
>>
>
>The scenario was about using about using MIP tunnel for routing
>other traffic. L2TP cant be used, as it wont provide mobility.
>
>Regards
>Sri




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From: "Sri Gundavelli" <sgundave@cisco.com>
To: "'Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)'" <pthubert@cisco.com>,
	"'Jari Arkko'" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
References: <20070607005358.PNHE23012.oaamta07sl.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005><35912544FC930E49BF20EF16C3EF2765024ACE7B@xmb-hkg-416.apac.cisco.com><004f01c7a8bb$28b99470$1220fea9@amer.cisco.com><467B9059.5090508@piuha.net>
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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: DS-MIP6 -
	Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 01:38:47 -0700
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Hi Pascal,
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 12:57 AM
> To: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave); Jari Arkko
> Cc: nemo@ietf.org; Mobile IPv6 Mailing List; Henrik 
> Levkowetz; Basavaraj Patil
> Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: 
> DS-MIP6 - Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
> 
> Hi Sri:
> 
> We went through this KA discussion. Even discussed having an async
> message sent by the HA with a short TTL or something so that it would
> pass the NAT but not reach the MN, so the MN could be left 
> sleeping and
> save battery. But at the end of the day, BU/BA seemed to do the job
> quite fine, bringing the value of revalidating the BCE when a simple
> ping would be total loss.

My concern with the use of BU/BA message as a tunnel keep alive
mechanism is the processing load on the HA. The amount of checks
the BU message will go through is lot more than a normal keepalive
message would go through, in most implementations, IMO. Each time
a BU is processed, the home agent needs to search for the BCE in its
table for that node and update the lifetime. For a simple keepalive,
this entire search can be skipped, its just a echo back and further
the message can be skipped when there is data traffic. If the home
agent is hosting like 1 to 2 million bindings, we need to pay bit
more attention to this. But, if you guys already thought about this
issue and if you are convinced, the processing load on the HA for a
BU vs a simple KA message is just the same, no issue from my side.

Regards
Sri


 




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 05 08:47:09 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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Folks, 

With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind everyone to express a
choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the contrast between the
amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to assume that a
lot of people who participated before don't care which alternative we go
for. 

So just to be clear, the options are:
Alternative 1
Alternative 2
Don't care

So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2. 

Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow for a seamless
switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. I think that
makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm also less
comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA when the MN
sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I think using
the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner. 

My 2 cents.

Hesham

PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the chairs/AD to make the
decisions for us.  

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
 > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
 > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
 > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
 > 
 > Folks, 
 > 
 > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
 > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference 
 > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of 
 > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find 
 > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that 
 > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility 
 > concerns of both sides.
 > 
 > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 
 > 
 > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
 > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different 
 > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below. 
 > 
 > 1. Implicit signalling
 > 
 > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
 > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a 
 > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field 
 > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning, 
 > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers 
 > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
 > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
 > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
 > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG 
 > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP 
 > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec 
 > should receive this. 
 > 
 > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
 > something like this:
 > 
 > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 > 
 > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
 > that this byte is used to identify the format of the 
 > following information (IP header or TLV)
 > 
 > Type is the message type 
 > length is the message length
 > 
 > 2. Explicit signalling
 > 
 > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
 > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 >   IP
 >   UDP
 >   TLV
 >    ...etc
 > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants 
 > to use the following format:
 >   IP
 >   UDP
 >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
 > 
 > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
 > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always 
 > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut 
 > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are 
 > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
 > 
 > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
 > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default 
 > format. So, all implementations have to support the current 
 > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for 
 > interoperability. 
 > 
 > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
 > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields 
 > with one byte reserved.
 > 
 > 
 > Hesham
 > 






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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: DS-MIP6 -
	Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 14:46:30 +0200
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Thread-Topic: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: DS-MIP6 -
	Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
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From: "Pascal Thubert \(pthubert\)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Sri Gundavelli \(sgundave\)" <sgundave@cisco.com>,
	"Jari Arkko" <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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	Basavaraj Patil <basavaraj.patil@nsn.com>
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Hi Sri:

That's fine, then. I agree there is additional processing on a BU but
then, this revalidates the cache so you get value for the relatively low
CPU increment on the overall message processing from the device driver
up.=20

How often should a BCE be refreshed? How long should a HA keep sending
packets in the void because it does not know the MN is unreachable at
this old CoA? If your deployment permits, that time should be kept short
enough. If it is in the order of a minute, the BU exchange should ensure
that the NAT state is maintained at no additional cost.

That's the tradeoff we ended up agreeing upon. As a result, the draft
does not specify a NAT maintenance mechanism and the whole thing ends up
as a configuration issue; note also that nothing prevents a particular
implementation to add its own secret sauce long as the processing
involved (such as pinging) does not bother a standard endpoint.

Pascal

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
>Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:39 AM
>To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert); 'Jari Arkko'
>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; 'Mobile IPv6 Mailing List'; 'Henrik Levkowetz';
'Basavaraj Patil'
>Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of: DS-MIP6 -
Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
>
>Hi Pascal,
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) [mailto:pthubert@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 12:57 AM
>> To: Sri Gundavelli (sgundave); Jari Arkko
>> Cc: nemo@ietf.org; Mobile IPv6 Mailing List; Henrik
>> Levkowetz; Basavaraj Patil
>> Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] Summary and conclusion of:
>> DS-MIP6 - Consensuscalltoclose issue 93
>>
>> Hi Sri:
>>
>> We went through this KA discussion. Even discussed having an async
>> message sent by the HA with a short TTL or something so that it would
>> pass the NAT but not reach the MN, so the MN could be left
>> sleeping and
>> save battery. But at the end of the day, BU/BA seemed to do the job
>> quite fine, bringing the value of revalidating the BCE when a simple
>> ping would be total loss.
>
>My concern with the use of BU/BA message as a tunnel keep alive
>mechanism is the processing load on the HA. The amount of checks
>the BU message will go through is lot more than a normal keepalive
>message would go through, in most implementations, IMO. Each time
>a BU is processed, the home agent needs to search for the BCE in its
>table for that node and update the lifetime. For a simple keepalive,
>this entire search can be skipped, its just a echo back and further
>the message can be skipped when there is data traffic. If the home
>agent is hosting like 1 to 2 million bindings, we need to pay bit
>more attention to this. But, if you guys already thought about this
>issue and if you are convinced, the processing load on the HA for a
>BU vs a simple KA message is just the same, no issue from my side.
>
>Regards
>Sri
>
>
>




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 05 10:04:22 2007
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Thread-Topic: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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From: "Narayanan, Vidya" <vidyan@qualcomm.com>
To: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>, <mip6@ietf.org>,
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I prefer to use an explicit signaling mechanism (Alt 2) as well. =20

Vidya

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 5:47 AM
> To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
> Subject: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
>=20
> Folks,=20
>=20
> With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind=20
> everyone to express a choice, or a "don't care" about this=20
> issue. Given the contrast between the amount of emails on=20
> this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to assume that a lot=20
> of people who participated before don't care which=20
> alternative we go for.=20
>=20
> So just to be clear, the options are:
> Alternative 1
> Alternative 2
> Don't care
>=20
> So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2.=20
>=20
> Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow=20
> for a seamless switch between the two packet formats on a=20
> per-packet basis. I think that makes things more predictable=20
> for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm also less comfortable with=20
> the generic ICMP error response from the HA when the MN sends=20
> a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I think=20
> using the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner.=20
>=20
> My 2 cents.
>=20
> Hesham
>=20
> PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the=20
> chairs/AD to make the decisions for us. =20
>=20
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]  >=20
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org';=20
> 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  >
>  > Folks,
>  >
>  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on =20
> > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference=20
>  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of  >=20
> concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find =20
> > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that  >=20
> avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility  >=20
> concerns of both sides.
>  >
>  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.=20
>  >
>  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases =20
> > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different  >=20
> mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below.=20
>  >
>  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  >
>  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to =20
> > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or=20
> a  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version=20
> field  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious=20
> meaning,  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version=20
> numbers  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for=20
> instance, 0  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.=20
>  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like =20
> > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG=20
>  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP  >=20
> therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec  >=20
> should receive this.=20
>  >
>  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look  >=20
> something like this:
>  >
>  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)  >  > Format=20
> is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate  > that=20
> this byte is used to identify the format of the  > following=20
> information (IP header or TLV)  >  > Type is the message type=20
>  > length is the message length  >  > 2. Explicit signalling =20
> >  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that,=20
> when  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the=20
> following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   TLV
>  >    ...etc
>  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants=20
>  > to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).=20
>  >
>  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a=20
> default  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can=20
> always  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format=20
> witohut  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data=20
> packets are  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.=20
>  >
>  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the=20
> HA  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one=20
> default  > format. So, all implementations have to support=20
> the current  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This=20
> allows for  > interoperability.=20
>  >
>  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field=20
> in  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length=20
> fields  > with one byte reserved.
>  >
>  >
>  > Hesham
>  >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Mip6 mailing list
> Mip6@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
>=20




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 05 10:24:17 2007
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Thread-Topic: Submitted I-D draft-baldessari-c2ccc-nemo-req-01
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Dear all,

We submitted a new version of the C2C-C automotive requirements for NEMO =
RO.
The draft is attached and also available at =
ftp://kyoto.netlab.nec.de/pub/internet-drafts/draft-baldessari-c2ccc-nemo=
-req-01.txt

There are several changes. We worked on restricting the requirements to =
the ones that are in the RO scope and removed what is unlikely to be =
addressed by the MEXT WG. Further, we compared requirements with the =
ones from aviation industry (draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-00) and outlined =
similar or identical requirements.

Also, the structure of the document has changed. If you want to skip the =
technical approach description, which did not change much, have a look =
directly at Section 5 (RO scenario) and 6 (Requirements). We borrowed =
from draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-00 the style in which requirements are =
listed, which we found particularly good.

Any comment is appreciated.

Best regards,

Roberto

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Roberto Baldessari
Research Staff Member
NEC Laboratories, Network Division, NEC Europe Ltd.
Kurfuerstenanlage 36, D-69115 Heidelberg
Tel.     +49 (0)6221 4342-167
Fax:     +49 (0)6221 4342-55
e-mail:  roberto.baldessari@netlab.nec.de
web:     http://www.netlab.nec.de/

NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office:=20
NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL=20
Registered in England 2832014=20
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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C8C1B2.D4664230--




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 05 11:48:51 2007
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Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:26:44 -0700
From: Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
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Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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I prefer alternative 2.

Vijay

Hesham Soliman wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind everyone to express a
> choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the contrast between the
> amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to assume that a
> lot of people who participated before don't care which alternative we go
> for.
> 
> So just to be clear, the options are:
> Alternative 1
> Alternative 2
> Don't care
> 
> So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2.
> 
> Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow for a seamless
> switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. I think that
> makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm also less
> comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA when the MN
> sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I think using
> the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Hesham
> 
> PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the chairs/AD to make the
> decisions for us. 
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
>  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
>  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  >
>  > Folks,
>  >
>  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on
>  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference
>  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of
>  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find
>  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that
>  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility
>  > concerns of both sides.
>  >
>  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.
>  >
>  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases
>  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different
>  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below.
>  >
>  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  >
>  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to
>  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a
>  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field
>  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning,
>  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers
>  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0
>  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.
>  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like
>  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG
>  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP
>  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec
>  > should receive this.
>  >
>  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look
>  > something like this:
>  >
>  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
>  >
>  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate
>  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the
>  > following information (IP header or TLV)
>  >
>  > Type is the message type
>  > length is the message length
>  >
>  > 2. Explicit signalling
>  >
>  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when
>  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   TLV
>  >    ...etc
>  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants
>  > to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).
>  >
>  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default
>  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always
>  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut
>  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are
>  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.
>  >
>  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA
>  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default
>  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current
>  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for
>  > interoperability.
>  >
>  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in
>  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields
>  > with one byte reserved.
>  >
>  >
>  > Hesham
>  >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mip6 mailing list
> Mip6@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
> 





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	Hesham Soliman <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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--0-5776690-1183651072=:34361
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii

+1.

Regards,

Behcet

----- Original Message ----
From: Vijay Devarapalli <vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com>
To: Hesham Soliman <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
Cc: nemo@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2007 10:26:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward

I prefer alternative 2.

Vijay

Hesham Soliman wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind everyone to express a
> choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the contrast between the
> amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to assume that a
> lot of people who participated before don't care which alternative we go
> for.
> 
> So just to be clear, the options are:
> Alternative 1
> Alternative 2
> Don't care
> 
> So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2.
> 
> Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow for a seamless
> switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. I think that
> makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm also less
> comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA when the MN
> sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I think using
> the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner.
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Hesham
> 
> PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the chairs/AD to make the
> decisions for us. 
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
>  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
>  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  >
>  > Folks,
>  >
>  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on
>  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference
>  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of
>  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find
>  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that
>  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility
>  > concerns of both sides.
>  >
>  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.
>  >
>  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases
>  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different
>  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below.
>  >
>  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  >
>  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to
>  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a
>  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field
>  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning,
>  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers
>  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0
>  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.
>  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like
>  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG
>  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP
>  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec
>  > should receive this.
>  >
>  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look
>  > something like this:
>  >
>  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
>  >
>  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate
>  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the
>  > following information (IP header or TLV)
>  >
>  > Type is the message type
>  > length is the message length
>  >
>  > 2. Explicit signalling
>  >
>  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when
>  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   TLV
>  >    ...etc
>  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants
>  > to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).
>  >
>  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default
>  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always
>  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut
>  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are
>  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.
>  >
>  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA
>  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default
>  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current
>  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for
>  > interoperability.
>  >
>  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in
>  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields
>  > with one byte reserved.
>  >
>  >
>  > Hesham
>  >
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mip6 mailing list
> Mip6@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
> 


_______________________________________________
Mip6 mailing list
Mip6@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6





--0-5776690-1183651072=:34361
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:14pt"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 14pt;">+1.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Behcet<br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Vijay Devarapalli &lt;vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com&gt;<br>To: Hesham Soliman &lt;Hesham@elevatemobile.com&gt;<br>Cc: nemo@ietf.org; mip6@ietf.org<br>Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2007 10:26:44 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward<br><br><div>I prefer alternative 2.<br><br>Vijay<br><br>Hesham Soliman wrote:<br>&gt; Folks,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind everyone to express a<br>&gt; choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the contrast between the<br>&gt; amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to assume
 that a<br>&gt; lot of people who participated before don't care which alternative we go<br>&gt; for.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; So just to be clear, the options are:<br>&gt; Alternative 1<br>&gt; Alternative 2<br>&gt; Don't care<br>&gt; <br>&gt; So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow for a seamless<br>&gt; switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. I think that<br>&gt; makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm also less<br>&gt; comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA when the MN<br>&gt; sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I think using<br>&gt; the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; My 2 cents.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Hesham<br>&gt; <br>&gt; PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the chairs/AD to make the<br>&gt; decisions for us. <br>&gt; <br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;
 -----Original Message-----<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Subject: Issue 93 - way forward<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Folks,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; concerns of both sides.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; The following is a summary of what we agreed
 on in the meeting.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; 1. Implicit signalling<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Jari mentioned
 that this is used by other protocols like<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; should receive this.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; something like this:<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Format (1byte) Type (1byte)&nbsp;&nbsp;Length (2 bytes)<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; that this byte is used to identify the format of the<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; following information (IP header or TLV)<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Type is the message type<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; length is the message
 length<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; 2. Explicit signalling<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; UDP<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; TLV<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...etc<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; to use the following format:<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; UDP<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...etc (i.e. no TLV).<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format
 witohut<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; format. So, all implementations have to support the current<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; interoperability.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; with one byte reserved.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; Hesham<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;
 _______________________________________________<br>&gt; Mip6 mailing list<br>&gt; Mip6@ietf.org<br>&gt; <a target="_blank" href="https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6">https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6</a><br>&gt; <br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Mip6 mailing list<br>Mip6@ietf.org<br><a target="_blank" href="https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6">https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6</a><br></div></div><br></div></div></body></html>
--0-5776690-1183651072=:34361--




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Subject: RE: [nemo] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 11:04:43 -0500
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From: "Ahmad Muhanna" <amuhanna@nortel.com>
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	<nemo@ietf.org>
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Since option 1 is contained and the proposed processing is very specific
to the case at hand, I support option 1.
That way we preserve one bit in the BU.

Regards,
Ahmad
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:47 AM
> To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
> Subject: [nemo] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
>=20
> Folks,=20
>=20
> With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind=20
> everyone to express a choice, or a "don't care" about this=20
> issue. Given the contrast between the amount of emails on=20
> this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to assume that a lot=20
> of people who participated before don't care which=20
> alternative we go for.=20
>=20
> So just to be clear, the options are:
> Alternative 1
> Alternative 2
> Don't care
>=20
> So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2.=20
>=20
> Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow=20
> for a seamless switch between the two packet formats on a=20
> per-packet basis. I think that makes things more predictable=20
> for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm also less comfortable with=20
> the generic ICMP error response from the HA when the MN sends=20
> a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I think=20
> using the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner.=20
>=20
> My 2 cents.
>=20
> Hesham
>=20
> PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the=20
> chairs/AD to make the decisions for us. =20
>=20
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]  >=20
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org';=20
> 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  >
>  > Folks,
>  >
>  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on =20
> > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference=20
>  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of  >=20
> concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find =20
> > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that  >=20
> avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility  >=20
> concerns of both sides.
>  >
>  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.=20
>  >
>  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases =20
> > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different  >=20
> mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below.=20
>  >
>  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  >
>  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to =20
> > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or=20
> a  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version=20
> field  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious=20
> meaning,  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version=20
> numbers  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for=20
> instance, 0  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.=20
>  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like =20
> > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG=20
>  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP  >=20
> therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec  >=20
> should receive this.=20
>  >
>  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look  >=20
> something like this:
>  >
>  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)  >  > Format=20
> is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate  > that=20
> this byte is used to identify the format of the  > following=20
> information (IP header or TLV)  >  > Type is the message type=20
>  > length is the message length  >  > 2. Explicit signalling =20
> >  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that,=20
> when  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the=20
> following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   TLV
>  >    ...etc
>  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants=20
>  > to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).=20
>  >
>  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a=20
> default  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can=20
> always  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format=20
> witohut  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data=20
> packets are  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.=20
>  >
>  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the=20
> HA  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one=20
> default  > format. So, all implementations have to support=20
> the current  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This=20
> allows for  > interoperability.=20
>  >
>  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field=20
> in  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length=20
> fields  > with one byte reserved.
>  >
>  >
>  > Hesham
>  >=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




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Subject: [nemo] RE: IETF NEMO inputs
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All

The document looks great.  My comments are mostly communication usage
expansion as we look at new concepts coming from the airlines and
airports.

Final comments are below.

Wes, my thanks to you for serving as the document editor!

Take care
Terry

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Section 1 Paragraph 3 "For decades...
This paragraph needs to make it clear that at least the aircraft will
have a minimum of three networks on it and will under NO circumstances
consist of a single network nor will the multiple networks be provided
by a single service provider.  Multiple onboard independent networks for
commercial aircraft are required in order for the aircraft to comply
with regulatory and legal requirements.

Section 2.1.1 Suggested sentences for the last paragraph following first
sentence:
"...requests and grants.  Future ATS communications are likely to
include longer messages and higher message frequencies for postional
awareness communication of all vehicles in motion at the airport and all
aircraft within a thirty mile range during flight.  In addition, these
communications are likely to include vehicle trajectories as well as
absolute position data."

Section 2.1.2
Airline message trafficing may include detailed electronic passenger
manifests, passenger ticketing/re-booking traffic, and complete
electronic baggage manifests.  When bandwidth is available, though
mainly at the terminal, "airplane health information" data transfers
into the 10 or low hundreds of megabytes are likely; and in future, it
is expected that the In-Flight Entertain systems (IFE) may receive movie
refreshes running in the gigabytes.

Section 2.1.3
We do know that several service providers are planning on offering
passenger Internet access during flight as DSL type rates, just as
Connexion-by-Boeing did.  In addition, several airlines have plans to
offer onboard cellular service to their passengers (not saying I like it
but notheless...); some of these may utilize VoIP services.

Section 4.1
We may want to note that large airports will be especially challenged by
the RO configurations due to the number of airline involved, the number
of service providers, and the high volume new ROs as aircraft arrive and
depart.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wesley Eddy [mailto:weddy@grc.nasa.gov]
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 7:44 AM
> To: wivancic@grc.nasa.gov; Davis, Terry L;
kelly.kitchens@baesystems.com;
> andy.colon@faa.gov; eivan.cerasi@eurocontrol.int
> Cc: Kerczewski, Robert J. (GRC-PRA0); Rafael.Apaza@faa.gov; Gib
Winter;
> bdimond@grc.nasa.gov
> Subject: IETF NEMO inputs
>=20
> Gentlemen:
>=20
> This is a friendly reminder that the cutoff for submitting updated
IETF
> Internet-Drafts is the morning of July 9th.  Attached is the working
> copy of the draft update that I plan to submit on NEMO Route
Optimization
> requirements for aeronautics.  I believe this will soon become a
working
> group item of the new MEXT working group, after the Chicago IETF
meeting
> this month, as it is on the proposed charter with November 2007 as the
> target date for submission to the RFC Editor for publication as an
RFC.
> By December 2007, an initial draft solution to meet those requirements
> is intended to become a MEXT working group item, with later
publication
> as an RFC after approval by the working group.
>=20
> If you have any inputs, please provide them by the 4 PM EST on the 5th
> so that I have enough time to include them before the submission
cutoff.
> Even a simple ACK that says it looks okay as-is would be useful.
Sorry
> if this catches some of you at an inopportune time due to US holidays.
> Thanks for your help!
>=20
> I've also been coordinating with the automotive (C2CCC) industry
people
> who are also looking for a NEMO RO solution, and planning at least a
> short informal meeting with them in Chicago for any of us from aero
that
> make it to the IETF meeting.  They seem to be at about the same stage
of
> work that we are (RO requirements understood, but no in-depth
evaluation
> of potential RO solutions and downselection has been made yet).  We're
> planning to share results as they develop, and hopefully find a
solution
> that's suitable for both industries.  I plan to similarly coordinate
> with the "personal mobile router" folks, if it seems to make sense.
>=20
> If anyone else from the ICAO group is interested in attending the IETF
> meeting, you can contact me for some details, tips, and information.
> Will and I, at least, will be there.  I would highly recommend reading
> the "Tao of the IETF" (RFC 4677) before going:
> http://www.ietf.org/tao.html
>=20
> --
> Wesley M. Eddy
> Verizon Federal Network Systems




From mext-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 05 13:15:14 2007
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Hi.
Sorry for how late these comments are.

It has come up in another discussion that there is ambiguity about to
what extent it is appropriate for mext to be changing the IPsec
protocols as a user of those protocols.

I have no problem with mext defining new payloads to use IKE to
configure some mobile IPV6 paramaters.  I'm concerned though about
basically any changes beyond that.


I think this should be clarified in the charter.



_______________________________________________
MEXT mailing list
MEXT@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext



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Subject: [MEXT] Re: WG Review: Mobility EXTensions for IPv6 (mext)
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Yes, I agree that this should be clarified. Sam, let
me work on text with you and then we can post the
suggestion to the list.

Jari

Sam Hartman kirjoitti:
> Hi.
> Sorry for how late these comments are.
>
> It has come up in another discussion that there is ambiguity about to
> what extent it is appropriate for mext to be changing the IPsec
> protocols as a user of those protocols.
>
> I have no problem with mext defining new payloads to use IKE to
> configure some mobile IPV6 paramaters.  I'm concerned though about
> basically any changes beyond that.
>
>
> I think this should be clarified in the charter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   


_______________________________________________
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From: Wesley Eddy <weddy@grc.nasa.gov>
To: "Davis, Terry L" <terry.l.davis@boeing.com>
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On Thu, Jul 05, 2007 at 09:12:29AM -0700, Davis, Terry L wrote:
> All
> 
> The document looks great.  My comments are mostly communication usage
> expansion as we look at new concepts coming from the airlines and
> airports.
> 
> Final comments are below.


Thanks; I'll work these changes in today, and they'll show up in the 01
version that I'll submit before the IETF cut-off.

-- 
Wesley M. Eddy
Verizon Federal Network Systems





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From: "Sri Gundavelli" <sgundave@cisco.com>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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Hesham,

Sorry for the late reply on this.

Can you confirm, for option#2, the flag will be present in
the Binding Acknowledgment ? 

Thanks
Sri

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 5:47 AM
> To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
> Subject: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
> 
> Folks, 
> 
> With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind 
> everyone to express a
> choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the 
> contrast between the
> amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to 
> assume that a
> lot of people who participated before don't care which 
> alternative we go
> for. 
> 
> So just to be clear, the options are:
> Alternative 1
> Alternative 2
> Don't care
> 
> So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2. 
> 
> Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow 
> for a seamless
> switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. 
> I think that
> makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm 
> also less
> comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA 
> when the MN
> sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I 
> think using
> the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner. 
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Hesham
> 
> PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the 
> chairs/AD to make the
> decisions for us.  
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
>  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
>  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  > 
>  > Folks, 
>  > 
>  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
>  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference 
>  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of 
>  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find 
>  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that 
>  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility 
>  > concerns of both sides.
>  > 
>  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 
>  > 
>  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
>  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different 
>  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below. 
>  > 
>  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  > 
>  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
>  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a 
>  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field 
>  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning, 
>  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers 
>  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
>  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
>  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
>  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG 
>  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP 
>  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec 
>  > should receive this. 
>  > 
>  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
>  > something like this:
>  > 
>  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
>  > 
>  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
>  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the 
>  > following information (IP header or TLV)
>  > 
>  > Type is the message type 
>  > length is the message length
>  > 
>  > 2. Explicit signalling
>  > 
>  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
>  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   TLV
>  >    ...etc
>  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants 
>  > to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
>  > 
>  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
>  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always 
>  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut 
>  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are 
>  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
>  > 
>  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
>  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default 
>  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current 
>  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for 
>  > interoperability. 
>  > 
>  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
>  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields 
>  > with one byte reserved.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > Hesham
>  > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mip6 mailing list
> Mip6@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 05 17:48:25 2007
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Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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Sri Gundavelli wrote:
> Hesham,
> 
> Sorry for the late reply on this.
> 
> Can you confirm, for option#2, the flag will be present in
> the Binding Acknowledgment ?

The flag would need to be echoed back in the binding acknowledgment.

Vijay

> 
> Thanks
> Sri
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
>  > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 5:47 AM
>  > To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
>  > Subject: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
>  >
>  > Folks,
>  >
>  > With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind
>  > everyone to express a
>  > choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the
>  > contrast between the
>  > amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to
>  > assume that a
>  > lot of people who participated before don't care which
>  > alternative we go
>  > for.
>  >
>  > So just to be clear, the options are:
>  > Alternative 1
>  > Alternative 2
>  > Don't care
>  >
>  > So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2.
>  >
>  > Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow
>  > for a seamless
>  > switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis.
>  > I think that
>  > makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm
>  > also less
>  > comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA
>  > when the MN
>  > sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I
>  > think using
>  > the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner.
>  >
>  > My 2 cents.
>  >
>  > Hesham
>  >
>  > PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the
>  > chairs/AD to make the
>  > decisions for us. 
>  >
>  >  > -----Original Message-----
>  >  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com]
>  >  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
>  >  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  >  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  >  >
>  >  > Folks,
>  >  >
>  >  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on
>  >  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference
>  >  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of
>  >  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find
>  >  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that
>  >  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility
>  >  > concerns of both sides.
>  >  >
>  >  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting.
>  >  >
>  >  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases
>  >  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different
>  >  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below.
>  >  >
>  >  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  >  >
>  >  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to
>  >  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a
>  >  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field
>  >  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning,
>  >  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers
>  >  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0
>  >  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6.
>  >  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like
>  >  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG
>  >  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP
>  >  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec
>  >  > should receive this.
>  >  >
>  >  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look
>  >  > something like this:
>  >  >
>  >  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
>  >  >
>  >  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate
>  >  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the
>  >  > following information (IP header or TLV)
>  >  >
>  >  > Type is the message type
>  >  > length is the message length
>  >  >
>  >  > 2. Explicit signalling
>  >  >
>  >  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when
>  >  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
>  >  >   IP
>  >  >   UDP
>  >  >   TLV
>  >  >    ...etc
>  >  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants
>  >  > to use the following format:
>  >  >   IP
>  >  >   UDP
>  >  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV).
>  >  >
>  >  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default
>  >  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always
>  >  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut
>  >  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are
>  >  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange.
>  >  >
>  >  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA
>  >  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default
>  >  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current
>  >  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for
>  >  > interoperability.
>  >  >
>  >  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in
>  >  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields
>  >  > with one byte reserved.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > Hesham
>  >  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Mip6 mailing list
>  > Mip6@ietf.org
>  > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mip6 mailing list
> Mip6@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
> 





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for high house prices".
The company has redesigned its Streamline and iClear iPod cases for the
iPhone.




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 05 23:00:06 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: "'Sri Gundavelli'" <sgundave@cisco.com>, <mip6@ietf.org>, <nemo@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 12:58:57 +1000
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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Yes it has to be present in the BA. 

Hesham 

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Sri Gundavelli [mailto:sgundave@cisco.com] 
 > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 4:33 AM
 > To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > Subject: RE: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
 > 
 > Hesham,
 > 
 > Sorry for the late reply on this.
 > 
 > Can you confirm, for option#2, the flag will be present in
 > the Binding Acknowledgment ? 
 > 
 > Thanks
 > Sri
 > 
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
 > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 5:47 AM
 > > To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > > Subject: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
 > > 
 > > Folks, 
 > > 
 > > With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind 
 > > everyone to express a
 > > choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the 
 > > contrast between the
 > > amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to 
 > > assume that a
 > > lot of people who participated before don't care which 
 > > alternative we go
 > > for. 
 > > 
 > > So just to be clear, the options are:
 > > Alternative 1
 > > Alternative 2
 > > Don't care
 > > 
 > > So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2. 
 > > 
 > > Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow 
 > > for a seamless
 > > switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. 
 > > I think that
 > > makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm 
 > > also less
 > > comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA 
 > > when the MN
 > > sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I 
 > > think using
 > > the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner. 
 > > 
 > > My 2 cents.
 > > 
 > > Hesham
 > > 
 > > PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the 
 > > chairs/AD to make the
 > > decisions for us.  
 > > 
 > >  > -----Original Message-----
 > >  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
 > >  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
 > >  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
 > >  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
 > >  > 
 > >  > Folks, 
 > >  > 
 > >  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
 > >  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference 
 > >  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of 
 > >  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find 
 > >  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that 
 > >  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility 
 > >  > concerns of both sides.
 > >  > 
 > >  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 
 > >  > 
 > >  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
 > >  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different 
 > >  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each 
 > one below. 
 > >  > 
 > >  > 1. Implicit signalling
 > >  > 
 > >  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
 > >  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a 
 > >  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field 
 > >  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning, 
 > >  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers 
 > >  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
 > >  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
 > >  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
 > >  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG 
 > >  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP 
 > >  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec 
 > >  > should receive this. 
 > >  > 
 > >  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
 > >  > something like this:
 > >  > 
 > >  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 > >  > 
 > >  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
 > >  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the 
 > >  > following information (IP header or TLV)
 > >  > 
 > >  > Type is the message type 
 > >  > length is the message length
 > >  > 
 > >  > 2. Explicit signalling
 > >  > 
 > >  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
 > >  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
 > >  >   IP
 > >  >   UDP
 > >  >   TLV
 > >  >    ...etc
 > >  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants 
 > >  > to use the following format:
 > >  >   IP
 > >  >   UDP
 > >  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
 > >  > 
 > >  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
 > >  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always 
 > >  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut 
 > >  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are 
 > >  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
 > >  > 
 > >  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
 > >  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default 
 > >  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current 
 > >  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for 
 > >  > interoperability. 
 > >  > 
 > >  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
 > >  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields 
 > >  > with one byte reserved.
 > >  > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > Hesham
 > >  > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > 
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Mip6 mailing list
 > > Mip6@ietf.org
 > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
 > 






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 06 00:48:47 2007
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From: Chan-Wah Ng <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: IETF NEMO WG <nemo@ietf.org>
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Subject: [nemo] NEMO Consumer Electronics Requirements
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Hello all,

I have submitted a draft for NEMO RO Requirements from the Consumer
Electronics perspective, but apparently I'd used an earlier version of
xml2rfc resulting in some outdated wordings being used ... bottom line
is: it may not get published in time for Chicago.

In the meantime, the draft can be retrieved from any of the following
sites:

http://www.mobilenetworks.org/~chanwah/draft-ng-nemo-ce-req-00.txt
http://www.freewebs.com/cwng/nemo/draft-ng-nemo-ce-req-00.txt

/rgds
/cwng




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 06 01:20:22 2007
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From: Jean Lorchat <lorchat@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
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Subject: [nemo] Re: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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Dear all,

We are taking care of a Linux implementation of the DSMIP draft.
 From our point of view, alternative 1 seems better because
it does not require a kind of new state on the HA for
DSMIP operation. We did not think about issues related to changing
the encapsulated protocol (v4/v6/TLV) on a per-packet basis though.

Jean
(Nautilus6 Project)

Hesham Soliman wrote:
> Folks, 
> 
> With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind everyone to express a
> choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the contrast between the
> amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to assume that a
> lot of people who participated before don't care which alternative we go
> for. 
> 
> So just to be clear, the options are:
> Alternative 1
> Alternative 2
> Don't care
> 
> So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2. 
> 
> Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow for a seamless
> switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. I think that
> makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm also less
> comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA when the MN
> sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I think using
> the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner. 
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Hesham
> 
> PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the chairs/AD to make the
> decisions for us.  
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
>  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
>  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  > 
>  > Folks, 
>  > 
>  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
>  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference 
>  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of 
>  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find 
>  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that 
>  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility 
>  > concerns of both sides.
>  > 
>  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in the meeting. 
>  > 
>  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
>  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different 
>  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each one below. 
>  > 
>  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  > 
>  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
>  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a 
>  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field 
>  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning, 
>  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers 
>  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
>  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
>  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
>  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG 
>  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP 
>  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec 
>  > should receive this. 
>  > 
>  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
>  > something like this:
>  > 
>  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
>  > 
>  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
>  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the 
>  > following information (IP header or TLV)
>  > 
>  > Type is the message type 
>  > length is the message length
>  > 
>  > 2. Explicit signalling
>  > 
>  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
>  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   TLV
>  >    ...etc
>  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants 
>  > to use the following format:
>  >   IP
>  >   UDP
>  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
>  > 
>  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
>  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always 
>  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut 
>  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are 
>  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
>  > 
>  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
>  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default 
>  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current 
>  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for 
>  > interoperability. 
>  > 
>  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
>  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields 
>  > with one byte reserved.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > Hesham
>  > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Mip6 mailing list
> Mip6@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
> 




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 06 04:21:19 2007
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From: "Sri Gundavelli" <sgundave@cisco.com>
To: "'Hesham Soliman'" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>, <mip6@ietf.org>,
	<nemo@ietf.org>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
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I agree Option#2 is cleaner and also disallowing encap mode
switch over on a per packet basis might be a good idea.

At the same time, I agree with Jean and Ahmad, it does not
introduce additional states, keeps the implementation simple.
We went over the flows as how the MN would ask for a specific
enap mode, in the presence/absence of NAT, in all cases
the explicit request appeared to be redundant, as the
acceptance of a specific encap mode and the NAT detection,
seem to implicitly dictate if TLV is required or not.

Its a tough call, but I'll go for Option#2. Just to keep
predictability in the operation and keep things explicit.

Sri




 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 7:59 PM
> To: 'Sri Gundavelli'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
> 
> Yes it has to be present in the BA. 
> 
> Hesham 
> 
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Sri Gundavelli [mailto:sgundave@cisco.com] 
>  > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 4:33 AM
>  > To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
>  > Subject: RE: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
>  > 
>  > Hesham,
>  > 
>  > Sorry for the late reply on this.
>  > 
>  > Can you confirm, for option#2, the flag will be present in
>  > the Binding Acknowledgment ? 
>  > 
>  > Thanks
>  > Sri
>  > 
>  > > -----Original Message-----
>  > > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
>  > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 5:47 AM
>  > > To: 'Hesham Soliman'; mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
>  > > Subject: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - way forward
>  > > 
>  > > Folks, 
>  > > 
>  > > With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind 
>  > > everyone to express a
>  > > choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the 
>  > > contrast between the
>  > > amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to 
>  > > assume that a
>  > > lot of people who participated before don't care which 
>  > > alternative we go
>  > > for. 
>  > > 
>  > > So just to be clear, the options are:
>  > > Alternative 1
>  > > Alternative 2
>  > > Don't care
>  > > 
>  > > So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2. 
>  > > 
>  > > Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow 
>  > > for a seamless
>  > > switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. 
>  > > I think that
>  > > makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm 
>  > > also less
>  > > comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA 
>  > > when the MN
>  > > sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I 
>  > > think using
>  > > the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner. 
>  > > 
>  > > My 2 cents.
>  > > 
>  > > Hesham
>  > > 
>  > > PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the 
>  > > chairs/AD to make the
>  > > decisions for us.  
>  > > 
>  > >  > -----Original Message-----
>  > >  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
>  > >  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
>  > >  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
>  > >  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Folks, 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
>  > >  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference 
>  > >  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of 
>  > >  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find 
>  > >  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that 
>  > >  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility 
>  > >  > concerns of both sides.
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in 
> the meeting. 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
>  > >  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different 
>  > >  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each 
>  > one below. 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > 1. Implicit signalling
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
>  > >  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a 
>  > >  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field 
>  > >  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning, 
>  > >  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers 
>  > >  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
>  > >  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
>  > >  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
>  > >  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG 
>  > >  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP 
>  > >  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec 
>  > >  > should receive this. 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
>  > >  > something like this:
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
>  > >  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the 
>  > >  > following information (IP header or TLV)
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Type is the message type 
>  > >  > length is the message length
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > 2. Explicit signalling
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
>  > >  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the 
> following format:
>  > >  >   IP
>  > >  >   UDP
>  > >  >   TLV
>  > >  >    ...etc
>  > >  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants 
>  > >  > to use the following format:
>  > >  >   IP
>  > >  >   UDP
>  > >  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
>  > >  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always 
>  > >  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut 
>  > >  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are 
>  > >  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
>  > >  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default 
>  > >  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current 
>  > >  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for 
>  > >  > interoperability. 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
>  > >  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields 
>  > >  > with one byte reserved.
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > Hesham
>  > >  > 
>  > > 
>  > > 
>  > > 
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Mip6 mailing list
>  > > Mip6@ietf.org
>  > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
>  > 




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 06 04:48:21 2007
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Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:47:40 +0200
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Chan-Wah Ng wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I have submitted a draft for NEMO RO Requirements from the Consumer 
> Electronics perspective, but apparently I'd used an earlier version
> of xml2rfc resulting in some outdated wordings being used ... bottom
> line is: it may not get published in time for Chicago.
> 
> In the meantime, the draft can be retrieved from any of the following
>  sites:
> 
> http://www.mobilenetworks.org/~chanwah/draft-ng-nemo-ce-req-00.txt 
> http://www.freewebs.com/cwng/nemo/draft-ng-nemo-ce-req-00.txt

Hi, thanks for this draft.

Regarding the sections on Personal Mobile Routers (PMR) and PMR in a car
(sec 2.1 and 2.2).

I find the two descriptions very relevant for NEMO and I think there is
a real need for these scenarios to be acommodated with IP protocols.

For PMR, I wanted to suggest citing the following:

    [x] Devarapalli, V., "Personal Mobile Router", Slide presentation
        at NEMO Working Group meeting, 67th IETF, San Diego, USA,
        November 2006.
        (on March 15th, 2007 it was available at
         http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/06nov/slides/nemo-2.pdf)

    draft-wakikawa-manemo-problem-statement-00.txt describes among
    others, section 3.4 Crowd of Personal Mobile Routers.

    Unpublished draft "MANEMO Configuration Problems"
    http://tinyurl.com/2z6ln describes Personal Mobile Router usecase in
    section 3.3

Thanks again for this draft,

Alex

> 
> /rgds /cwng
> 
> 


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Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:37:43 +0200
From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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Dear all,

Please send to TJ and I your requests for a slot during the NEMO WG
meeting and provide the following information:

- Name of speaker
- Title of presentation
- Requested time
- associated draft (if any, and preferably)
- Motivations for this slot

The NEMO WG will meet in Chicago and we have to give priority to the following:
- complete existing documents
- collect requirements from the Aviation industry, the Automotive industry and personal mobile router industry

Other requests will be considered based on time availability.


FYI, the NEMO WG meeting has been scheduled as follow:
----------------------------------------------
NEMO Session 1 (1 hour)
Thursday, Morning Session I 0900-1130
Room Name: Red Lacquar
----------------------------------------------


Regards,
Thierry Ernst.

-- 
Thierry ERNST, PhD 
INRIA Rocquencourt France Project-Team IMARA / JRU LARA
http://www.lara.prd.fr +33 1 39 63 59 30 (office)
-- 
The coming end of the IPv4 world: http://penrose.uk6x.com




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Subject: [nemo] update to aero-reqs draft
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I just submitted an update to the draft on aeronautical requirements for
NEMO route optimization.  Until it gets put onto the IETF website, you
can find a copy here:
http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~weddy/shared/nemo/draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-01.txt

Colorized comparison to the previous version is here:
http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~weddy/shared/nemo/aero-reqs-00-to-01-diff.html

This update incorporates comments from ICAO participants, Eurocontrol,
avionics vendors, and others from the MPI and NEMO mailing lists.  I
think this has undergone enough review and approval from aviation
industry people to be adopted as a working group item here (MEXT?) after
the IETF meeting.

-- 
Wesley M. Eddy
Verizon Federal Network Systems




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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 07 07:29:33 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] RE: Issue 93 - resolution
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Ok, it looks like we're going with alternative 2. Thanks for all your input.

I'll submit the draft this weekend with this issue's resolution included. 

I talked to Jari about what to do with his review of issue 73 and he
suggested I submit the draft with all the other issues fixed. So whenever he
comes back with a resolution for it I can update the draft and announce it
on the list (i.e. even if I submit another version after the deadline). We
don't have any other outstanding issues. 

Thanks,
Hesham

 >  > > Folks, 
 >  > > 
 >  > > With the deadline fast approaching, I'd like to remind 
 >  > > everyone to express a
 >  > > choice, or a "don't care" about this issue. Given the 
 >  > > contrast between the
 >  > > amount of emails on this issue before Vs now, I'm inclined to 
 >  > > assume that a
 >  > > lot of people who participated before don't care which 
 >  > > alternative we go
 >  > > for. 
 >  > > 
 >  > > So just to be clear, the options are:
 >  > > Alternative 1
 >  > > Alternative 2
 >  > > Don't care
 >  > > 
 >  > > So far we had one opinion for alt 1 and another for alt 2. 
 >  > > 
 >  > > Personally, I prefer 2 because it's clearer and doesn't allow 
 >  > > for a seamless
 >  > > switch between the two packet formats on a per-packet basis. 
 >  > > I think that
 >  > > makes things more predictable for tunnel setup at the HA. I'm 
 >  > > also less
 >  > > comfortable with the generic ICMP error response from the HA 
 >  > > when the MN
 >  > > sends a packet in a format that is not supported by the HA. I 
 >  > > think using
 >  > > the BU to signal which format should be used is cleaner. 
 >  > > 
 >  > > My 2 cents.
 >  > > 
 >  > > Hesham
 >  > > 
 >  > > PS: If we get a lot of "don't care" then I'll ask the 
 >  > > chairs/AD to make the
 >  > > decisions for us.  
 >  > > 
 >  > >  > -----Original Message-----
 >  > >  > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:Hesham@elevatemobile.com] 
 >  > >  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 2:27 PM
 >  > >  > To: 'mip6@ietf.org'; 'nemo@ietf.org'
 >  > >  > Subject: Issue 93 - way forward
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > Folks, 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > Some of the people involved in the recent discussions on 
 >  > >  > issue 93, the NETLMM chairs and the AD had a teleconference 
 >  > >  > a few days ago to discuss how to address the lack of 
 >  > >  > concensus on this issue. The aim of the meeting was to find 
 >  > >  > a way of accomodating both sides with one solution that 
 >  > >  > avoids the technical inefficiency/lack of flexibility 
 >  > >  > concerns of both sides.
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > The following is a summary of what we agreed on in 
 > the meeting. 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > The agreement was to define a way of handling both cases 
 >  > >  > (presence of TLV or not). To do that two different 
 >  > >  > mechanisms were proposed, I'll list a summary of each 
 >  > one below. 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > 1. Implicit signalling
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > The idea is to use the first byte after the UDP header to 
 >  > >  > switch on whether the following header is IP (v4 or v6) or a 
 >  > >  > TLV header. Effectively, the first byte is the version field 
 >  > >  > of the IP header. versions 4 or 6 have the obvious meaning, 
 >  > >  > for the TLV header we can use one of the version numbers 
 >  > >  > that are not used today like 0 or 1. So for instance, 0 
 >  > >  > means TLV, 4 means IPv4, and 6 means IPv6. 
 >  > >  > Jari mentioned that this is used by other protocols like 
 >  > >  > MPLS and it is considered a hack by some people on the IESG 
 >  > >  > but in our case we use a specific port number for DSMIP 
 >  > >  > therefore no one who does not implement the DSMIP spec 
 >  > >  > should receive this. 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > So, when using this alternative, the TLV would look 
 >  > >  > something like this:
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > Format (1byte) Type (1byte)  Length (2 bytes)
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > Format is just a bad name I use in this email to indicate 
 >  > >  > that this byte is used to identify the format of the 
 >  > >  > following information (IP header or TLV)
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > Type is the message type 
 >  > >  > length is the message length
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > 2. Explicit signalling
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > In this mechanism we define a new flag in the BU that, when 
 >  > >  > set, indicates that the MN/MR wants to use the 
 > following format:
 >  > >  >   IP
 >  > >  >   UDP
 >  > >  >   TLV
 >  > >  >    ...etc
 >  > >  > when the flag is cleared, it indicates the the MN/MR wants 
 >  > >  > to use the following format:
 >  > >  >   IP
 >  > >  >   UDP
 >  > >  >   ...etc (i.e. no TLV). 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > Obviously when using this mechanism there must be a default 
 >  > >  > mechanism for sending the BU itself. I.e., we can always 
 >  > >  > send the BU in the current UDP encapsulation format witohut 
 >  > >  > the TLV but if the request is accepted then data packets are 
 >  > >  > sent as agreed during the BU/BA exchange. 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > In either solution we will have to mandate that both the HA 
 >  > >  > and the MN support the negotiation mechanism and one default 
 >  > >  > format. So, all implementations have to support the current 
 >  > >  > format of UDP encapsulation as a base. This allows for 
 >  > >  > interoperability. 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > In this alternative there is no need for the Format field in 
 >  > >  > alternative 1, we only need to define Type and Length fields 
 >  > >  > with one byte reserved.
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > 
 >  > >  > Hesham
 >  > >  > 
 >  > > 
 >  > > 
 >  > > 
 >  > > _______________________________________________
 >  > > Mip6 mailing list
 >  > > Mip6@ietf.org
 >  > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mip6
 >  > 






From xeqcd@elior.com Sat Jul 07 07:57:45 2007
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--------------000803060508060304030406--




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VPSN WILL MOVE LIKE A COMET AND ITS ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER! Watch this
SUPERNOVA closely MONDAY!

VISION AIRSHIPS INC
Symbol: VPSN
Price: $0.021

BANGKOK, THAILAND, July 2007
Advertising Agencies Ready to Ink Deals!

The company wishes to announce that it is in final negotiations for
representation with some of the world's largest advertising agencies to
market and reserve the blimps for there clients.

VPSN THE RISING STAR, IS SET FOR SUPERNOVA STATUS ON MONDAY!

There is a great deal of beta carotene, vitamin C and calcium in
spinach.

When asked whether he agreed with Mr Wigley on the specific cabinet
posts, Mr Jones said it was an interesting position which he would
consider during discussions.

So whilst it may have some benefits for people suffering from ADHD, it
was originally used for other purposes. At times, I experienced
significant physical discomfort. At first, I took little notice but then
the scaly patches and the itching began.
Tom Nuckels owns LpVitamins.

Mr Morgan said: "I'm very pleased that Plaid Cymru have agreed the
coalition deal.

If your BP reading is high, you'll be asked to come back for repeat
blood pressure checks.

Many people have it and don't even suspect it.

Sometimes the condition got worse and then improved so I was then able
to identify a number of things that produced flare-ups including
infections, stress, and climate changes.

"I will be meeting with Ieuan Wyn Jones in due course in order to form a
stable government which will deliver a progressive agenda for Wales.

It was prescribed to help people in weight and dietary control.




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 08 22:50:09 2007
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From: Chan-Wah Ng <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Thank you, Alex, for the references.  Will add them in the next version.

In the other news, the Internet Draft Secretary actually accepted my new
version with the corrected boilerplate past the -00 deadline ;) so here
is the forwarded Internet Draft Announcement.

/rgds
/cwng


-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ng-nemo-ce-req-00.txt
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:15:01 -0400

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.


	Title		: Consumer Electronics Requirements for Network Mobility Route Optimization
	Author(s)	: C. Ng
	Filename	: draft-ng-nemo-ce-req-00.txt
	Pages		: 12
	Date		: 2007-7-6
	
   This document illustrates different deployments of Network Mobility
   (NEMO) from the consumer electronics perspective.  From these
   deployments, a set of requirements is deduced for Route Optimization
   (RO) with NEMO.


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Mobility Working Group of the IETF.

                                                                                           
        Title           : NEMO Management Information Base
        Author(s)       : S. Gundavelli, et al.
        Filename        : draft-ietf-nemo-mib-03.txt
        Pages           : 42
        Date            : 2007-07-09
                                                                                           
This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB),
the network mobility support (NEMO) MIB, for use with network
management protocols in the Internet community.  In particular, the
NEMO MIB will be used to monitor and control a mobile ipv6 node with
NEMO functionality.
                                                                                           
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 09 05:33:28 2007
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Hi,

	We've just submitted an update of the I-D that describes or NEMO RO
proposal: MIRON (MIPv6 Route Optimisation for NEMO). Until it appears on
the I-D repository, it can be downloaded from the following location:

http://www.it.uc3m.es/cjbc/papers/draft-bernardos-nemo-miron-01.txt

	This version includes an analysis (in an appendix) of how our proposed
solution fits each of the Aeronautics NEMO RO requirements
(draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-01.txt).

	Comments would be appreciated.

	The abstract of the I-D is copied below:

   The Network Mobility Basic Support protocol enables networks to roam
   and attach to different access networks without disrupting the
   ongoing sessions that nodes of the network may have.  By extending
   the Mobile IPv6 support to Mobile Routers, nodes of the network are
   not required to support any kind of mobility, since packets must go
   through the Mobile Router-Home Agent (MRHA) bi-directional tunnel.
   Communications from/to a mobile network have to traverse the Home
   Agent, and therefore better paths may be available.  Additionally,
   this solution adds packet overhead, due to the encapsulation.

   This document describes an approach to the Route Optimisation for
   NEMO, called Mobile IPv6 Route Optimisation for NEMO (MIRON).  MIRON
   enables mobility-agnostic nodes within the mobile network to directly
   communicate (i.e. without traversing the MRHA bi-directional tunnel)
   with Correspondent Nodes.  The solution is based on the Mobile Router
   performing the Mobile IPv6 Route Optimisation signalling on behalf of
   the nodes of the mobile network.

   This document (in an appendix) also analyses how MIRON fits each of
   the NEMO RO Aeronautics requirements.

	Kind Regards,

	Carlos J.

--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 09 08:06:37 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: "'Ahmad Muhanna'" <amuhanna@nortel.com>, <mip6@ietf.org>, <nemo@ietf.org>
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Ahmad, 

Sorry for the late reply and thanks for the comments. I included your
comments below. One response though: 


 > SUGGESTION:
 > ===========
 > Finally, probably this suggestion is a little too late in 
 > the game and
 > have been discussed earlier, but since the MN is roaming in 
 > an IPv4 only
 > foreign network, SHOULD not we make it optional to the MN to request
 > that only an IPv4 HoA to be allocated. This would save 
 > resources at the
 > HA.

=> Not if we're using MIPv6 for signalling. MIPv6 requires the use of the
HoA and SAs are built based on that. So we can't send the :: address in the
BU. I don't think the resources at the HA are a big deal. HAs can be
increased if it's an issue for the operator. 

Hesham







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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 23:37:22 +1000
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Subject: [nemo] new DSMIP draft
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Folks, 

Until the draft is announced you can find it here:
http://www.elevatemobile.com/ietf/draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt

There are some id nits that I plan to handle with WGLC, I'm transferring it
to xml now. 

Hesham






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From: "Ivancic, William D. (GRC-RCN0)" <william.d.ivancic@nasa.gov>
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 09 16:59:29 2007
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Update on MIRON I-D (draft-bernardos-nemo-miron-01.txt)
From: Carlos =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jes=FAs?= Bernardos Cano <cjbc@it.uc3m.es>
To: "Ivancic, William D. (GRC-RCN0)" <william.d.ivancic@nasa.gov>
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Hi William,

	Thanks for your interest on our solution.

	You have raised several interesting questions. Below, we try to address
some of them. In an appendix of the I-D, we have analysed how MIRON fits
the requirements of Aeronautics (based on
draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-01.txt) and there you can find some additional
information about most of the questions you raised.

El lun, 09-07-2007 a las 13:10 -0500, Ivancic, William D. (GRC-RCN0)
escribi=F3:
> Carlos,
>=20
> I have a couple of questions regarding MIRON.
>=20
> How does allowing the MR to proxy for LNNs scale?

	Regarding the impact on the global routing tables, very well, since
MIRON does not impact them in any way.
Regarding the signalling load, we did some maths in the appendix of the
I-D and with 9.6 kbps, MIRON would be able to optimise about 1500 LFN-CN
flows.
>=20
> Does allowing the MR to proxy for LNNs result in binding update storms
> during network transisions?

	Since the MR performs all the MIPv6 signalling on behalf of LFNs for
those LFN-CN flows that are required to be optimised, this might result
that a number of BUs is sent when the NEMO moves. This is the same that
would happen today in cellular telephony networks when users in a train
move and their phones need to perform a handover to a different radio
cell.
>=20
> How does this work in a multi-homed mobile network?  (Perhaps a
> monami6 related questions, but monami6, nemo and mip6 will soon be
> combined.)

	MIRON is compatible with MONAMI6 multiple-CoA registration solution. In
principle, since MIRON its based on MIPv6 RO, any extensions to support
multihoming, could be applied to MIRON as well.

>=20
> How does allowing the MR to proxy for LNNs effect Ipsec traffic
> between LNNs and CNs?

	ESP is supported. AH is not fully supported.
>=20
> The draft indicates code was tested in some sort of test network.  Are
> there any papers or links to results.  I am interested in how many
> LNNs and CNs were used in the test deployment.


	Reference [17] in the I-D provides some of the results we obtained.
However, the tests that we performed were not focused on handover
performance.

	Kind Regards,

	Carlos

   [17]  Calderon, M., Bernardos, C., Bagnulo, M., Soto, I., and A. de
         la Oliva, "MIRON: Mobile IPv6 Route Optimization for NEMO",
         IEEE Journal on Selected Areas in Communications (J-SAC), issue
         on Mobile Routers and Network Mobility, Volume 24, Number 9,
         pp. 1702-1716 , September 2006.


> Will
>=20
> ******************************
> William D. Ivancic
> Phone 216-433-3494
> Fax 216-433-8705
> Lab 216-433-2620
> Mobile 440-503-4892
> http://roland.grc.nasa.gov/~ivancic
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano [mailto:cjbc@it.uc3m.es]
> > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:33 AM
> > To: IETF NEMO WG
> > Cc: Marcelo Bagnulo; Mar=EDa Calder=F3n; Ignacio Soto Campos
> > Subject: [nemo] Update on MIRON I-D
> > (draft-bernardos-nemo-miron-01.txt)
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >       We've just submitted an update of the I-D that
> > describes or NEMO RO
> > proposal: MIRON (MIPv6 Route Optimisation for NEMO). Until it
> > appears on the I-D repository, it can be downloaded from the
> > following location:
> >
> > http://www.it.uc3m.es/cjbc/papers/draft-bernardos-nemo-miron-01.txt
> >
> >.....
>=20
>=20
--=20
=A1AS=D3CIATE! Gratis para estudiantes  http://www.telematica.ws
 Carlos Jes=FAs Bernardos Cano     http://www.netcoms.net
 GPG FP: D29B 0A6A 639A A561 93CA  4D55 35DC BA4D D170 4F67

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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 10 07:39:02 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
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	<mip6@ietf.org>,
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] new DSMIP draft
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Hi Karen,

 > 
 > A few comments:
 > 
 > To me, there is some confusion in the draft as to whether 
 > RH type 2 and HAO DST-OPT are used when MIPv6 signaling messages
 > are encapsulated in IPv4.
 > 
 > I think, that you now want to say that these are not used (?)
 > Therefore the HAO DST-OPT have disappeared from Packet format A. in
 > Section 4.2 - 
 > Right ?

=> Well, since we're forced to use the HoA in the src address field, the HAO
becomes redundant, so yes, that's true.

 > 
 > If so, the RH type 2 should also disappear from Packet Format B, same
 > section (?)

=> Yes, it's a slip in the text.

 > 
 > For clarity I think that it could be good to add a few lines 
 > somewhere
 > emphasizing this general difference to [MIPv6]. I.e., not only are we
 > encapsulating
 > in IPv4, RH and DST-OPT have also disappeared. 

=> ok.

 > 
 > A long the same lines, I think that the last part of section 2.3.2.1
 > needs 
 > updating, Ipv4-mapped addresses are no longer used - right ?

=> I thought I did that, hmm, I'll take a look.

 > 
 > Finally, Section 2.2 on Mobile Prefix Solicitations and 
 > Advertisements
 > doesn't say 
 > whether these messages are sent with DST-OPT and RH. Such is 
 > a MUST in
 > [MIPv6] and therefore
 > it would be good to clarify whether we keep them here or not.

=> Yes.

 > 
 > Also in Section 2.2., I do not understand the reference:   
 > 
 >    "Securing such messages would require the mobile node to have
 > security
 >    association with the home agent, using IPsec (AH or ESP) 
 > and based on
 >    the mobile node's IPv4 care-of address as described in [MIPv6]."
 > 
 > - ??
 > 

=> This particular text is about 3 years old. At the time, I think my
intention was to highlight that if the MN is in an IPv4 network and strictly
follows the security requirements for those messages, which may be exchanged
before the MN discovers its home address, then the IPv4 HoA may have to be
used. That might be tricky with IPv4 and especially when NATs are present. 


 > It is also here said that
 > 
 >    "If this effect
 >    is not desired, the mobile node can base the SA on the 
 > information in
 >    the inner header (i.e. using the home agent's IPv6 address, the
 >    mobile node's home address and the ICMP protocol number). Such
 >    security association would use transport mode ESP protection."
 > 
 > Why should this be ESP transport, do you want to say IPv4, IPv6, ESP,
 > ICMP - as in [MIPv6]
 > had we no RH/DST-OPT, 

=> Right.

   and specifically NOT:
 > 
 > Ipv4, ESP, IPv6, ICMP.

=> Well, this format won't work if a NAT is present. Or do you mean
IPv4/UDP/ESP/...etc? 

Hesham







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--------------020004060100080306050806--




From pegqx@sprintpcs.com Tue Jul 10 10:27:22 2007
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Subject: has created a downloadable pdf that explains the ins and outs of iPods.
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VPSN Has Wild Day as Stock climbs $0.019 (90.48%) GAIN!

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The templates allow publishers to display their RSS feeds as HTML web
pages. Prepare Questions in Advance  Prepare a list of questions prior
to the interview, contemplate possible follow-up questions based on the
expected responses.

The iPod tutorial is designed to even help advanced iPod users to take
advantage of the iPods more advanced and complex features. Once you have
determined individuals that will appeal to your target audience contact
potential interviewees and arrange a time to conduct the interview.

htm Looking for Innovative RSS Ideas? Pair it up with it's sister
product FeedForAll and you can easily publish your podcast as well. The
Shareware Industry Awards were created as a way to honor the very best
programs marketed using the "shareware" marketing model.

Question: Are there any size limitations to podcasts?

I give it my highest recommendation.
The music is licensed in such a way that podcasters can purchase a
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radio play time, that is, until now. It is easiest if you use the same
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Create a list of notes along with the questions that are accessible
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Professors are using podcasts to instruct students and get their
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files along with their feed. Export your work to several popular audio
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com  NEW iPod Tutorial  NotePage has sponsored a free iPod tutorial that
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FeedForAll Mac is software that allows publishers and webmasters to
create, edit and publish: RSS feeds, podcasts and videocasts.




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 11 11:30:48 2007
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Hi Folks,
   We would like to hear your comments on this document as well. This 
document is a significant update to ipv6 neighbor discovery and we would 
like some more eyeballs. Please spare some time from your busy schedule 
to give it a look.

Thanks
Suresh

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WGLC for draft-ietf-dna-protocol-06.txt
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 15:47:24 -0400
From: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>
To: Dna <dna@eng.monash.edu.au>
CC: Greg Daley <Greg.Daley@eng.monash.edu.au>,  Jari Arkko 
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>

This mail starts a 2 week working group Last Call for comments for the
following dna working group document

draft-ietf-dna-protocol-06.txt

to be sent to the IESG for consideration as a Standards Track RFC.

Please review the document carefully, and send your feedback to the
list. Please also indicate whether or not you believe that this
document is ready to go to the IESG.

The last call will end on 2007/07/18.

Cheers
Suresh & Greg





From snn@fau.edu Thu Jul 12 03:09:33 2007
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at New York University.




From rrgp@kirche-alt-lichtenberg.de Fri Jul 13 00:13:38 2007
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SZSN Expands To Become 3rd Largest Agricultural Seed Provider!

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SZSN is expanding. Recent acquisitions put it in the top 3 Seed
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Subsequent investigations showed that the government illegally favored
Pro-Vida when distributing funds and that the N.
Desert, sea, and mountains converge in the peninsula to create an
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myriad of different birds migrating there from North America, making San
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cannot account for a large percentage of the resources it received. We
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The week-long conference began with three days of meeting in the capital
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it never happens again.
But it also involves not a few obstacles. In particular, he pointed to
lack of clarity in the contracts as to whether the transnational
companies could record Bolivia's gas reserves as theirs on the stock
exchange. "We need to wage a different war, one against violence against
women and girls and against the culture of impunity that protects the
perpetuators and their accomplices.




From ziart@rockisland.com Fri Jul 13 12:38:25 2007
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--------------070703000105000706060103--




From pxtpl@aeraenergy.com Mon Jul 16 12:55:59 2007
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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 17 03:48:12 2007
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] I-D
	ACTION:draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt 
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Hi Hesham,

The new version has the IPv4-mapped IPv6 address text changed according
to the new IPv4 CoA option except
in a couple of occasions.

Section 2.3.2.2

"All entries MUST point to the mobile node's IPv4 care-of address
included=20
in the source address of the IPv6 packet and represented as an
IPv4-mapped IPv6 address."

Section 4.2

"When the home agent receives the encapsulated binding update it=20
compares the IPv4 address of the source address field in the=20
IPv4 header with the IPv4 address in the source address of the IPv6
header."

Was it so that the TLV would never be used in BU/BACK or is it allowed
after the initial binding has been created? This could be clarified in
section 4.1.

Cheers,
Markku

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext mip6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mip6-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>Sent: 12 July, 2007 20:16
>To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>Cc: mip6@ietf.org
>Subject: [Mip6] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt=20
>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20
>Internet-Drafts directories.
>This draft is a work item of the Mobility for IPv6 Working=20
>Group of the IETF.
>
>	Title		: Mobile IPv6 support for dual stack=20
>Hosts and Routers (DSMIPv6)
>	Author(s)	: H. Soliman
>	Filename	: draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt
>	Pages		: 27
>	Date		: 2007-7-12
>=09
>The current Mobile IPv6 and NEMO specifications support IPv6 only.
>   This specification extends those standards to allow the registration
>   of IPv4 addresses and prefixes, respectively, and the transport of
>   both IPv4 and IPv6 packets over the tunnel to the HA. This
>   specification also allows the Mobile Node to roam over both IPv6 and
>   IPv4, including the case where Network Address Translation=20
>is present
>   on the path between the mobile node and its home agent.
>
>A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4trav
ersal-05.txt
>
>To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a=20
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>You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
>to change your subscription settings.
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login=20
>with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail=20
>address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=20
>"get draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt".
>
>A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20
>http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or=20
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
>Send a message to:
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>=09
>NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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>	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
>	how to manipulate these messages.
>
>Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail=20
>reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20
>version of the Internet-Draft.
>




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 17 03:54:37 2007
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From: "Hesham Soliman" <Hesham@elevatemobile.com>
To: <Markku.Ala-Vannesluoma@nokia.com>
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Subject: [nemo] RE: [Mip6] I-D
	ACTION:draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt 
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Hi Markku, 

It wasn't intentional, I thought I changed them but obviously I missed those
two. I'll fix it up i nthe next rev. 

Thanks,
Hesham 

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Markku.Ala-Vannesluoma@nokia.com 
 > [mailto:Markku.Ala-Vannesluoma@nokia.com] 
 > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 5:48 PM
 > To: Hesham@elevatemobile.com
 > Cc: mip6@ietf.org; nemo@ietf.org
 > Subject: RE: [Mip6] I-D 
 > ACTION:draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt 
 > 
 > Hi Hesham,
 > 
 > The new version has the IPv4-mapped IPv6 address text 
 > changed according
 > to the new IPv4 CoA option except
 > in a couple of occasions.
 > 
 > Section 2.3.2.2
 > 
 > "All entries MUST point to the mobile node's IPv4 care-of address
 > included 
 > in the source address of the IPv6 packet and represented as an
 > IPv4-mapped IPv6 address."
 > 
 > Section 4.2
 > 
 > "When the home agent receives the encapsulated binding update it 
 > compares the IPv4 address of the source address field in the 
 > IPv4 header with the IPv4 address in the source address of the IPv6
 > header."
 > 
 > Was it so that the TLV would never be used in BU/BACK or is 
 > it allowed
 > after the initial binding has been created? This could be 
 > clarified in
 > section 4.1.
 > 
 > Cheers,
 > Markku
 > 
 > >-----Original Message-----
 > >From: ext mip6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mip6-bounces@ietf.org] 
 > >Sent: 12 July, 2007 20:16
 > >To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
 > >Cc: mip6@ietf.org
 > >Subject: [Mip6] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt 
 > >
 > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line 
 > >Internet-Drafts directories.
 > >This draft is a work item of the Mobility for IPv6 Working 
 > >Group of the IETF.
 > >
 > >	Title		: Mobile IPv6 support for dual stack 
 > >Hosts and Routers (DSMIPv6)
 > >	Author(s)	: H. Soliman
 > >	Filename	: draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt
 > >	Pages		: 27
 > >	Date		: 2007-7-12
 > >	
 > >The current Mobile IPv6 and NEMO specifications support IPv6 only.
 > >   This specification extends those standards to allow the 
 > registration
 > >   of IPv4 addresses and prefixes, respectively, and the 
 > transport of
 > >   both IPv4 and IPv6 packets over the tunnel to the HA. This
 > >   specification also allows the Mobile Node to roam over 
 > both IPv6 and
 > >   IPv4, including the case where Network Address Translation 
 > >is present
 > >   on the path between the mobile node and its home agent.
 > >
 > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
 > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4trav
 > ersal-05.txt
 > >
 > >To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a 
 > >message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word 
 > >unsubscribe in the body of the message. 
 > >You can also visit 
 > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
 > >to change your subscription settings.
 > >
 > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login 
 > >with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail 
 > >address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then 
 > >"get draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt".
 > >
 > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in 
 > >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or 
 > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
 > >
 > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
 > >
 > >Send a message to:
 > >	mailserv@ietf.org.
 > >In the body type:
 > >	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt".
 > >	
 > >NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
 > >	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
 > >	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
 > >	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
 > >	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant 
 > >mail readers
 > >	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
 > >	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
 > >	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
 > >	how to manipulate these messages.
 > >
 > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail 
 > >reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII 
 > >version of the Internet-Draft.
 > >
 > 






From lqf@co.fulton.ga.us Tue Jul 17 04:14:21 2007
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Message-ID: <469C7A54.7000104@co.fulton.ga.us>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:14:12 +0200
From: Chapman Q. Gwendoline <lqf@co.fulton.ga.us>
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--------------010104010602070505040808--




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Subject: [nemo] RFC 4885 on Network Mobility Support Terminology
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.



        

        RFC 4885



        Title:      Network Mobility Support Terminology 

        Author:     T. Ernst, H-Y. Lach

        Status:     Informational

        Date:       July 2007

        Mailbox:    thierry.ernst@inria.fr, 

                    hong-yon.lach@motorola.com

        Pages:      19

        Characters: 37967

        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None



        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-06.txt



        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4885.txt



This document defines a terminology for discussing network mobility

(NEMO) issues and solution requirements.  This memo provides information 

for the Internet community.



This document is a product of the Network Mobility

Working Group of the IETF.





INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 

It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution

of this memo is unlimited.



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...








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Subject: [nemo] RFC 4886 on Network Mobility Support Goals and Requirements
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.



        

        RFC 4886



        Title:      Network Mobility Support Goals and 

                    Requirements 

        Author:     T. Ernst

        Status:     Informational

        Date:       July 2007

        Mailbox:    thierry.ernst@inria.fr

        Pages:      13

        Characters: 29083

        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None



        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-nemo-requirements-06.txt



        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4886.txt



Network mobility arises when a router connecting a network to the

Internet dynamically changes its point of attachment to the Internet

thereby causing the reachability of the said network to be changed in

relation to the fixed Internet topology.  Such a type of network is

referred to as a mobile network.  With appropriate mechanisms,

sessions established between nodes in the mobile network and the

global Internet can be maintained after the mobile router changes its

point of attachment.  This document outlines the goals expected from

network mobility support and defines the requirements that must be

met by the NEMO Basic Support solution.  This memo provides information 

for the Internet community.



This document is a product of the Network Mobility

Working Group of the IETF.





INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 

It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution

of this memo is unlimited.



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The RFC Editor Team

USC/Information Sciences Institute



...








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Subject: [nemo] RFC 4887 on Network Mobility Home Network Models
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.



        

        RFC 4887



        Title:      Network Mobility Home Network Models 

        Author:     P. Thubert, R. Wakikawa,

                    V. Devarapalli

        Status:     Informational

        Date:       July 2007

        Mailbox:    pthubert@cisco.com, 

                    ryuji@sfc.wide.ad.jp, 

                    vijay.devarapalli@azairenet.com

        Pages:      19

        Characters: 40372

        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None



        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-nemo-home-network-models-06.txt



        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4887.txt



This paper documents some of the usage patterns and the associated

issues when deploying a Home Network for Network Mobility (NEMO)-

enabled Mobile Routers, conforming to the NEMO Basic Support.  The

aim here is specifically to provide some examples of organization of

the Home Network, as they were discussed in NEMO-related mailing

lists.  This memo provides information for the Internet community.



This document is a product of the Network Mobility

Working Group of the IETF.





INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 

It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution

of this memo is unlimited.



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...








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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.



        

        RFC 4888



        Title:      Network Mobility Route Optimization Problem 

                    Statement 

        Author:     C. NgUC Davis, P. Thubert,

                    M. Watari, F. Zhao

        Status:     Informational

        Date:       July 2007

        Mailbox:    chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com, 

                    pthubert@cisco.com, 

                    watari@kddilabs.jp,  fanzhao@ucdavis.edu

        Pages:      26

        Characters: 56756

        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None



        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-nemo-ro-problem-statement-03.txt



        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4888.txt



With current Network Mobility (NEMO) Basic Support, all

communications to and from Mobile Network Nodes must go through the

bi-directional tunnel established between the Mobile Router and Home

Agent when the mobile network is away.  This sub-optimal routing

results in various inefficiencies associated with packet delivery,

such as increased delay and bottleneck links leading to traffic

congestion, which can ultimately disrupt all communications to and

from the Mobile Network Nodes.  Additionally, with nesting of Mobile

Networks, these inefficiencies get compounded, and stalemate

conditions may occur in specific dispositions.  This document

investigates such problems and provides the motivation behind Route

Optimization (RO) for NEMO.  This memo provides information for the 

Internet community.



This document is a product of the Network Mobility

Working Group of the IETF.





INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 

It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution

of this memo is unlimited.



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The RFC Editor Team

USC/Information Sciences Institute



...








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Subject: [nemo] RFC 4889 on Network Mobility Route Optimization Solution
	Space Analysis
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.



        

        RFC 4889



        Title:      Network Mobility Route Optimization Solution 

                    Space Analysis 

        Author:     C. Ng, F. Zhao,

                    M. Watari, P. Thubert

        Status:     Informational

        Date:       July 2007

        Mailbox:    chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com, 

                    fanzhao@ucdavis.edu, 

                    watari@kddilabs.jp,  pthubert@cisco.com

        Pages:      38

        Characters: 95880

        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None



        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-nemo-ro-space-analysis-03.txt



        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4889.txt



With current Network Mobility (NEMO) Basic Support, all

communications to and from Mobile Network Nodes must go through the

Mobile Router and Home Agent (MRHA) tunnel when the mobile network is

away.  This results in increased length of packet route and increased

packet delay in most cases.  To overcome these limitations, one might

have to turn to Route Optimization (RO) for NEMO.  This memo

documents various types of Route Optimization in NEMO and explores

the benefits and tradeoffs in different aspects of NEMO Route

Optimization.  This memo provides information for the Internet community.



This document is a product of the Network Mobility

Working Group of the IETF.





INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 

It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution

of this memo is unlimited.



This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.

Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list

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unlimited distribution.



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RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC

Authors, for further information.





The RFC Editor Team

USC/Information Sciences Institute



...








From mext-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 21 16:35:17 2007
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Folks,

This is a status update about the merged working group.
The IESG has approved the charter pending a few edits
from me (Sam's issue among other things).

However, I have run out of time to get the WG setup before
this meeting. The one thing missing is deciding who the
chairs are. As a result, I have asked the current chairs to
run the three slots we have in IETF-69.

I also plan to use the week to talk to the potential candidates
for chairs, from both the set of current chairs as well as
new candidates. I have a some names in mind and some
have contacted me about this. If there is anyone who feels
they are interested, please contact me so that we can talk
during the week. I plan to make the decision right after the
IETF.

Jari


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From mext-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 21 16:37:56 2007
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	<729b68be0707020546i27e6f377s2f60b9ec1032582f@mail.gmail.com>
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If we still need to do the WGLC, I think we should include the
item in the charter.

Jari

Jean-Michel Combes kirjoitti:
> Hi Behcet,
>
> 2007/6/30, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> Hi Jari,
>>   In fact HA reliability work is almost over. I think the current
>> draft is
>> expected to go for WGLC soon and the subteam is almost closed. I
>> don't think
>> it would take Aug 08 to complete this work. HA reliability could be
>> completely removed from this charter.
>
> IMHO, I am not so sure. That depends whether you want, concerning the
> IPsec failover, a MIP6 WG based solution or a general one (i.e. IFare
> work) included the draft.
>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Behcet
>>
>
> [snip]
>
> Best regards.
>
> JMC.
>
>


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From mext-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 21 17:50:31 2007
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Wesley,

> I agree.  When I read it last, it seemed like to meet all of its stated
> capabilities, the HA reliability work would need to block on the IFARE
> work, but perhaps it was just unclear and my understanding was wrong.
> Other than this part, it did seem mostly complete to me.  Specifically,
> there didn't seem to be detailed enough information on the IPsec state
> synchronization mechanism within the hareliability draft itself to
> implement both interoperable, and fully-functional solutions.
>   
The IPsec sync is outside the charter. The next revision of the
charter text tries to make this clear (and at the same time
address the issue that Sam raised).

(But its another question of whether the WG wants to normatively
refer to an IPsec sync specification. If so, at this time they would be
referring to work that has not even been chartered yet, so you'd
want to be careful that you don't insert such a dependency lightly.)

Jari



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From: RYUJI WAKIKAWA <ryuji.wakikawa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 07:57:00 +0900
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Hi Jean-Michel

On 2007/07/02, at 21:46, Jean-Michel Combes wrote:

> Hi Behcet,
>
> 2007/6/30, Behcet Sarikaya <behcetsarikaya@yahoo.com>:
>>
>> Hi Jari,
>>   In fact HA reliability work is almost over. I think the current  
>> draft is
>> expected to go for WGLC soon and the subteam is almost closed. I  
>> don't think
>> it would take Aug 08 to complete this work. HA reliability could be
>> completely removed from this charter.
>
> IMHO, I am not so sure. That depends whether you want, concerning the
> IPsec failover, a MIP6 WG based solution or a general one (i.e. IFare
> work) included the draft.

IPsec failover is assumed only for the HA virtual switch case.
There is no mechanism available so far in IETF.
And we don't think the MIP6 WG is the right place to specify the  
ipsec failover.
We already had consensus on this point in MIP6 WG.
As soon as solution(IFARE?) are available, we can update the HA  
reliability to support that.

regards,
ryuji


>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Behcet
>>
>
> [snip]
>
> Best regards.
>
> JMC.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MEXT mailing list
> MEXT@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext


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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 23 11:51:39 2007
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Dear all,

Here is the agenda in its almost final state. Please make sure you read the drafts listed on it.

NEMO WG Chairs.


NEMO WG meeting Agenda, IETF69 July 22-27 2007 Chicago
Chairs: Thierry Ernst & TJ Kniveton

===
NEMO WG page: http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/nemo-charter.html
NEMO Additional Page: http://www.mobilenetworks.org/nemo/
NEMO Status Page: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/nemo/
===

THURSDAY, July 26, 2007 
0900-1130 Morning Session I - Monroe


1. Welcome, agenda bashing ....................................... 05 mins
   Chairs 

2. WG documents status  .......................................... 10 mins
   Chairs

   http://tools.ietf.org/wg/nemo/
 
   NEMO Management Information Base
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-mib-03.txt
 
3. Use Case Personal Mobile Router ............................... 15 mins

   Consumer Electronics NEMO RO Deployments and Requirements
   Chan-Wah Ng

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ng-nemo-ce-req-00.txt

4. Use Case Automotive ........................................... 15 mins
   Update of NEMO Route Optimization Requirements from the automitive industry
   Roberto Baldessari

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-baldessari-c2ccc-nemo-req-01.txt

5. Use Case Aeronautic (1/2) ..................................... 15 mins   
   Summary of discussion and issues for the aeronautic use case
   William D. Ivancic

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-01.txt

6. Use Case Aeronautic (2/2) ..................................... 15 mins    
   Mobile IPv6 Route Optimisation for Network Mobility (MIRON): 
   How this solution fits the Aeronautics requirements?
   Carlos J. Bernardos

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bernardos-nemo-miron-01.txt 
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-01.txt

7. Elimination of Proxy NDP from Home Agent Operations .......... 15 mins
   Ryuji Wakikawa

   Informational document related to the home network models document. 
   The document lists potential operational issues about the HA 
   intercepting packets without proxy ND and gives tips.
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wakikawa-mip6-no-ndp-01



-- version 2007-07-23 11.00 Chicago






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 23 13:00:19 2007
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I am in the process of turning  "Multi-Domained, Multi-Homed Mobile
Networks," draft-ivancic-mobile-platforms-problem-00.txt into a general
paper and NASA report so that it is forever documented.  The ID has
expired, but can be found at:
http://www.multicasttech.com/mpi/draft-ivancic-mobile-platforms-problem-
00.txt

This document describes numerous problems associated with deployment of
multi-homed mobile platforms consisting of multiple networks and
traversing large geographical areas.  The purpose of this document is to
provide insight to real-world deployment issues and provides information
to working groups that are addressing many issues related to
multi-homing, policy-base routing, route optimization and mobile
security. =20

If so desired by the working group and the area chairs I would be
willing to work it into a informational RFC.
If yes,  "Should this be an individual submission or working group
submission?"



Will Ivancic=20




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 23 19:36:39 2007
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Dear Roberto,

Very well written and instructive document.

Please find inline some comments on it (comments start with =>)


       C2C-C Consortium Requirements for NEMO Route Optimization
                   draft-baldessari-c2ccc-nemo-req-01


2.  Terminology

   The following terms used in this document are defined in the Mobile
   IPv6 protocol specification [2]:

   o  Home Agent (HA)

   o  Home Address (HoA)

=> These are defined in [2] but it is superceded by [8] where HA and
HoA are listed.


   The following terms used in this document are defined in the NEMO
   Route Optimization Space Analysis document [6]:


   o  Correspondent Router (CR)

   o  Correspondent Entity (CE)

=> These are defined in [2] but it is superceded by [8] where CR and CE
are listed.


   The following new terms are used in this document:

   o  Application Unit (AU): a portable or built-in device connected
      temporarily or permanently to the vehicle OBU.  It is assumed that
      AUs support a standard TCP/IPv6 protocol stack, optionally
      enhanced with IP Mobility support.  With respect to the NEMO
      terminology, an AU is a generic MNN.

=> Why AUs would be enhanced with IP mobility support ? If you are
considering hand-held devices, may be this should be added as a
justification.

      
   Vehicles' OBUs and stationary units along the road, termed road-side
   units (RSUs), form an ad hoc network.  

=> Is this necessarily the case ? (having read all the draft, this
seems to be required from the point of view of the C2C-CC, but taking
the OBU from a more generic stand point ?)

3.2.  Protocol Architecture

   The protocol stack currently considered by C2C-CC for OBUs is
   depicted in Figure 2.

               +--------------------+------------------+
               |                    |                  |
               |       C2C-CC       |     IP-based     |
               |    Applications    |   Applications   |
               |                    |                  |
               +--------------------+------------------+
               |                    |    TCP/UDP/...   |
               |  C2C-CC Transport  +------------------+
               |                    |                  |
               +--------------------+-----+    IPv6    |
               |                          |            |
               |      C2C-CC Network      |            |
               |                          |            |
               +--------------------+-----+------------+
               |      Modified      |  Standard WLAN   |
               |    IEEE 802.11p    | IEEE 802.11a/b/g |
               +--------------------+------------------+

                       Figure 2: OBU Protocol Stack

=> Wouldn't is be useful to also show on another figure the protocol
stack at the AU and the RSU (if it differs). 


3.3.  IPv6 Deployment


   o  On the IEEE 802.11a/b/g interface directly: in this method, IPv6
      headers are sent directly to the wireless LAN interface as
      specified by [5].

=> This is not the RFC you had in mind. 

   The following informational list briefly summarizes currently
   discussed design concepts:

   o  vehicles use only IPv6 addresses with as host part an EUI-64
      identifier derived from the MAC address.  

=> I wonder why this constraint ? Why not using random generation of
the host id part ?


   o  when infrastructure access is not available, OBUs use addresses
      with as prefix part a predefined IPv6 prefix (either reserved for
      C2C-C communications or a general purpose one);

=> "when infrastructure access is not available": it depends if you mean
"infrastructure access not always available", or "infrastructure access
never available". If the former, you could remove "when infrastructure
access is not available" because OBUs would always use the same prefix

4.1. Scope of NEMO

   As it does not seem realistic that every car owner will also
   subscribe for such a service [Home Agent]

=> Why not ? It can (and should IMHO) be required in the C2C-CC
architecture

4.2.2.  Peer-to-peer Applications

   In this set of use cases, the same applications should be able to run
   in V2V and V2I mode.  As applications should not be aware of routing
   nor addressing issues, they should use the same identifier for
   sessions and users (e.g. cars/drivers/passengers) independently of
   the communications mode.  Possible approaches are either to adopt
   resolution mechanisms or actually maintain the same network
   identifier in both V2V and V2I modes.  This could be achieved for
   example generalizing the concept of Mobile Network Prefix (MNP) and
   allowing a Mobile Router (OBU) to use it for V2V communications in
   absence of attachment points.  By means of enforcing limited lifetime
   for IPv6 prefixes and due to the isolation of VANET clusters from the
   infrastructure (in V2V), this use of MNP should not introduce routing
   inconsistencies.

=> For this particular paragraph, I think you need to explain how it
fits with NEMO.


5.  NEMO Route Optimization Scenarios

   With respect to the classification of NEMO Route Optimization
   scenarios described in [6], the non-nested NEMO RO case (Section 3.1)
   is considered as the most important for the C2C-CC deployment.  In
   fact, MIPv6-enabled AUs (i.e.  VMNs) and nested Network Mobility are
   not considered in the C2C-CC use cases.

=> Please check my comment about AU in the terminology section. The wording "optionally enhanced with IP mobility support" in definition of AU is not consistent with the above statement.

   The requirements defined in this document refer to RO between MR and
   CR (Correspondent Router).  According to C2C-CC use cases, the CR can
   be:

=> Here (and everywhere above in the remaining parts of this draft), I
would suggest to use CN, or CE. Currently, there is no reasons to
assume that RO would be performed with a CR.

   In the first case, the connectivity to the infrastructure is
   available only for short time intervals.  Vehicles' applications
   exchange data packets with nodes in the infrastructure in form of
   short bursts, containing for example traffic updates or information
   about local points of interests.  In this situation, providing prompt
   and reliable communication is more important than achieving optimal
   routing or highest available throughput.  In particular, the
   additional delay for RO establishment with every CRs can have a
   considerable negative impact.  Furthermore, in some situations the
   path through MR-HA tunnel might be considered more reliable and
   trustworthy than a direct one to the CR.  In particular, the tunnel
   allows the MR to hide its CoA from the CR which results in a location
   privacy protection.  Therefore:

=> It's not for granted in the case where the CN would be immediately
behind the RSU. The path through the HA would be considerably longer
and is obviously less trustworthy than the MR-HA tunnel (the path
MR-AR-CN compares with the path MR-AR-...-HA-HA-...-AR-CN)


6.2.  Req 2 - MNN IPsec

   A RO technique SHOULD allow MNNs connected to the MR to use IPsec as
   if they were connected to a regular access router.

   This requirement comes from the fact that no assumption can be made
   on pre-existing trust relationships between passenger devices and the
   OBU.  Therefore, passenger devices (assumed to run IPv6 without
   Mobility Support) should be able to use full IPsec functionalities
   when connecting to the infrastructure via a MR.

=> This requirement doesn't make much sense to me. Each IPv6 node is
supposed to support IPsec, so it is guaranteed that MNN won't  be
prevented from using IPsec.


6.4.  Req 4 - Privacy Protection

   A RO technique MUST not require that the MNP is revealed to all nodes
   in the visited network.  Instead, a RO technique MUST allow for
   revealing the MNP only to selected nodes in the visited network.
   Furthermore, a RO technique SHOULD allow that MNP and HoA are not
   exchanged as clear text.

=> It should be "MUST allow" (since you wrote about "allowance").


6.5.  Req 5 - Multihoming

   A RO technique MUST allow a MR to be simultaneously connected to
   multiple access networks, having multiple prefixes and Care-Of
   Addresses in a MONAMI6 context.

   In other words, it is required that a RO technique can be used on
   multiple communication technologies.  Assuming that mechanisms for
   registering and handling multiple CoAs are provided from the MONAMI6
   work, NEMO RO should be usable for every available CoA.

   This requirement is also specified in [9].

6.6.  Req 6 - Coexistence with Sub-IPv6 RO

   A RO technique MUST allow for coexistence in the same OBU with a RO
   technique offered by the sub-IPv6 C2C-CC Network layer.  The OBU MUST
   be able to choose which technique to use when both are simultaneously
   available.

=> What about the HA ? 


=> In line with section 5, I think that a requirement "Delay in RO
establishment" is missing in section 6. i.e. the RO mechanism should be
fast enough to adapt to CoA change in order to fit with VANET needs.

=> I would suggest to check if the listed RO requirements match all of
RFC 4886 design goals. For instance, signaling overhead, transparency,
etc. The C2C-CC may have specific considerations.



10.2.  Informative References

   [8]   Ernst, T. and H. Lach, "Network Mobility Support Terminology",
         draft-ietf-nemo-terminology-06 (work in progress),
         November 2006.

=> This document should be in the normative section since the
terminology is a norm (though the document is in the "Informational"
track).

Thierry.


On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 16:25:08 +0200
"Roberto Baldessari" <Roberto.Baldessari@netlab.nec.de> wrote:

>
>Dear all,
>
>We submitted a new version of the C2C-C automotive requirements for NEMO RO.
>The draft is attached and also available at ftp://kyoto.netlab.nec.de/pub/internet-drafts/draft-baldessari-c2ccc-nemo-req-01.txt
>
>There are several changes. We worked on restricting the requirements to the ones that are in the RO scope and removed what is unlikely to be addressed by the MEXT WG. Further, we compared requirements with the ones from aviation industry (draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-00) and outlined similar or identical requirements.
>
>Also, the structure of the document has changed. If you want to skip the technical approach description, which did not change much, have a look directly at Section 5 (RO scenario) and 6 (Requirements). We borrowed from draft-eddy-nemo-aero-reqs-00 the style in which requirements are listed, which we found particularly good.
>
>Any comment is appreciated.
>




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 09:01:00 2007
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Hi,

Thomas Clausen presented a short introduction of a Mobile Router in the
Autoconf-MANEMO meeting. He also explained the interface roles Ingress and
Egress.
I prefer the term _interface roles_ over _interface types_. However, I
wonder this new term is accepted by the NEMO WG and if the impact is fully
understood. For example, we have to find out if the roles are mutually
exclusive. 
A related issue is allowing the egress interface to act as a router
interface when attached to a foreign link; as this contradicts with NEMO
Basic Support.
I suggest an impact analysis document on this issue is written.
 
Teco.






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 10:56:08 2007
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Subject: Re: [nemo] Interface roles: ingress and egress
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Hello, 

On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 15:01 +0200, Teco_Boot wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Thomas Clausen presented a short introduction of a Mobile Router in the
> Autoconf-MANEMO meeting. He also explained the interface roles Ingress and
> Egress.
> I prefer the term _interface roles_ over _interface types_. However, I
> wonder this new term is accepted by the NEMO WG and if the impact is fully
> understood. For example, we have to find out if the roles are mutually
> exclusive. 

I kind of agree with the _interface role_ terminology, as I do not
believe the ingress and egress types are mutually exclusive.

In the multihoming issues draft (soon to be RFC), we have included in
the Appendix C a suggestion for MR to listen to its ingress interface
for other MRs, and if its original egress link is down, try to attach to
said other MRs using its ingress interface.

I believe you are looking at this from a MANEMO perspective, and my
description above is using a more "traditional" approach, but I think it
wasn't that different from a higher layer.

/rgds
/cwng

> A related issue is allowing the egress interface to act as a router
> interface when attached to a foreign link; as this contradicts with NEMO
> Basic Support.

> I suggest an impact analysis document on this issue is written.
>  
> Teco.
> 
> 
> 




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Hui,
> May I  conform one thing here: (please allow me cc ifare)
> IFARE will consider different IP address for GW, is this correct?
I think that was the goal of IFARE. Then again, we don't
have an IFARE WG at the moment, so we are speculating.

Jari


_______________________________________________
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>Thomas Clausen presented a short introduction of a Mobile Router in the
>Autoconf-MANEMO meeting. He also explained the interface roles Ingress and
>Egress.
>I prefer the term _interface roles_ over _interface types_. However, I
>wonder this new term is accepted by the NEMO WG and if the impact is fully
>understood. For example, we have to find out if the roles are mutually
>exclusive. 

Well, MANEMO can define the roles of the interface as it wish, it
doesn't change how NEMO see things. In any case, the NEMO terminology
is set up and published, and a different view from MANEMO doesn't cause
inconsistencies.

>A related issue is allowing the egress interface to act as a router
>interface when attached to a foreign link; as this contradicts with NEMO
>Basic Support.

I don't see a contradiction here. NEMO Basic Support just says that
packets must be encapsulated to the HA. But the Mobile Router is not
obliged to perform a NEMO Basic Support function.

>I suggest an impact analysis document on this issue is written.

I think this should be done within MANEMO problem statement.

Thierry.




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I believe this version has all the edits that I needed to
get in. Sam was OK with this as well.

----

Mobility EXTensions for IPv6 (MEXT)

Chair(s):
TBD

Internet Area Director(s):
Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Mark Townsley <townsley@cisco.com>

Internet Area Advisor:
Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>

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Description of Working Group:

Mobile IPv6 specifies routing support which permits an IPv6 host to
continue using its home address as it moves around the Internet,
enabling continuity of sessions. Mobile IPv6 supports transparency
above the IP layer, including maintenance of active transport level
sessions. In addition, NEMO network mobility mechanisms built on top
of Mobile IPv6 allow managing the mobility of an entire network, as it
changes its point of attachment to the Internet. The base
specifications consist of:

o RFC 3775
o RFC 3963
o RFC 4877

The MEXT Working Group continues the work of the MIP6, NEMO, and
MONAMI6 Working Groups.

The primary goal of MEXT will be to (A) enhance base IPv6 mobility by
continuing work on developments that are required for wide-scale
deployments and specific deployment scenarios.  Additionally, (B) the
working group will ensure that any issues identified by implementation
and interoperability experience are addressed, and that the base
specifications are maintained. (C) The group will also produce
informational documentation, such as design rationale documents or
description of specific issues within the protocol.

Deployment considerations call for (A.1) solutions to enable
dual-stack operation, (A.2) mechanisms to support high-availability
home agents, (A.3) allowing the use of multiple interfaces in mobile
nodes, (A.4) ways to employ Mobile IPv6 in the presence of firewalls,
(A.5) address the specific needs of automotive and aviation
communities for route optimisation in network mobility, and (A.6)
support for AAA is needed as a continuation of earlier work on
bootstrapping.

Work items related to large scale deployment include:

(A.1) A Solution for MIP6 session continuity for dual stack hosts which
      attach to IPv4 access networks. Additionally provide a mechanism
      for carrying IPv4 packets via the Home agent for MIP6 capable
      dual-stack hosts.

(A.2) A protocol based solution for enhancing the reliability of home
      agents and a method to force a host to switch home agents.

      A mechanism to force an MN to switch the HA that is currently
      serving it. This is required in deployments where the HA needs to
      be taken offline for maintenance.

(A.3) Use of multiple interfaces.

      Today, the protocols do not provide suppport for simultaneous
      differentiated use of multiple access technologies. Several
      proposals exist for such support, and some of them have been
      implemented and tested.
   
      When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
      simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a
      single network interface, the mobile host/router would end up
      with multiple Care-of Addresses (CoAs). In addition, the Home
      Agent might be attached to multiple network interfaces, or to a
      single network interface with multiple prefixes, hence resulting
      in the option to use multiple IP addresses for the Home
      Agent. This could result in the possibility of using a multitude
      of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent address,
      CoA} and a number of associated issues: establishment, selection
      and modification of multiple simultaneous tunnels.
   
      The objective of the WG is to produce a clear problem statement
      and to produce standard track specifications to the problems
      associated with the simultaneous use of multiple addresses for
      either mobile hosts using Mobile IPv6 or mobile routers using
      NEMO Basic Support and their variants (FMIPv6, HMIPv6,
      etc). Where the effects of having multiple prefixes on a single
      interface is identical to the effects of having multiple
      interfaces each with a single prefix, the WG will consider a
      generalized approach to cater for multiple prefixes available to
      a mobile host/router.

      The WG uses existing tunneling mechanisms defined for Mobile
      IPv6. The involved nodes need to select which tunnel instance
      to use when multiple ones are available due to multiple
      addresses on either end. But the WG does not plan to define a
      new mechanism for this, but rather document how to use existing
      mechanisms based upon preferences or policies. In particular,
      the WG will consider that a tunnel is alive as long as packets
      can be exchanged with the corresponding peer. In addition, local
      information, such as interface up/down events, or other failure
      detection mechanisms can be used to quickly detect failure of
      tunnel(s).
   
      Deliverables related to this include
   
      - A document explaining the motivations for a node using multiple
        interfaces and the scenarios where it may end up with multiple
        global addresses on its interfaces [Informational]
   
      - An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for
        mobile hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses and Home
        Agent addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are specific to
        Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
   
      - A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple
        Care-of Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard
        Track].
   
      - A "Flow/binding policies exchange" solution for an exchange of
        policies from the mobile host/router to the Home Agent and from the
        Home Agent to the mobile host/router influencing the choice of the
        Care-of Address and Home Agent address. The solution involves two
        specifications, one for the policy format and another for its
        transport [both Standard Track].
      
(A.4) Work on solutions to deal with firewalls and the problems that
      firewalls cause as identified in RFC 4487.

(A.5) Route optimization of network mobility.

      Three use cases have been identified for this. These are called
      the Aviation case, the Automotive case, and the Personal Mobile
      Router (consumer electronics) case, though the actual technical
      problems are characterized by the type of movements and
      environments more than by the specific industry using the
      technology. The group will explore these cases to gather
      requirements and proceed with solving the open issues.
   
      (1) Airline and spacecraft community, who are deploying NEMO for
      control systems, as well as Internet connectivity and
      entertainment systems. This use case is characterized by fast (~
      1000 km/h) moving objects over large distances (across
      continents). The main technical problem is that tunneling-based
      solutions imply a roundtrip to another continent and that BGP
      based solutions imply significant churn in the global Internet
      routing table.
   
      (2) Automotive industry who are deploying NEMO for in-car
      communication, entertainment, and data gathering, possible
      control systems use, and communication to roadside devices. This
      use case is characterized by moderately fast (~ 100-300 km/h)
      moving objects that employ local or cellular networks for
      connectivity.
   
      (3) Personal Mobile Routers, which are consumer devices that
      allow the user to bring a NEMO network with the user while
      mobile, and communicate with peer NEMO Basic Support nodes
      and nodes served by them.
   
      After gathering the requirements for these types of deployments,
      the working group will evaluate what type of route optimization
      needs to be performed (if any), and formulate a solution to
      those problems.
   
      If no requirements for those scenarios can be collected by the
      deadline, it will be assumed that the work is premature, and
      that type of deployment will be dropped from the WG.
   
      The group will only consider airline and spacecraft solutions
      that combine tunneling solutions for small movements with either
      federated tunnel servers or slowly changing end host prefixes.
      The group will only consider personal mobile router requirements
      about optimized routes to another mobile router belonging to the
      same operator. The group will only consider automotive industry
      requirements to allow MR-attached hosts to directly access the
      network where MR has attached to. Work on automotive and
      personal mobile router solutions requires rechartering.

      The WG will not consider extensions to routing protocols. The
      group will not consider general multi-homing problems that are
      not related to the deployment and maintenance of Mobile IPv6 or
      NEMO Basic Support protocols. The group will also not consider
      general route optimization, or other problems that are not
      related to the deployment and maintenance of NEMO Basic Support
      protocols. Similarly, the group will not consider or rely on the
      results of general routing architecture, Internet architecture,
      or identifier-locator split issues that are discussed in
      separate, long term efforts elsewhere in the IETF. Finally, the
      group will not consider solutions that require changes from
      correspondent nodes in the general Internet

(A.6) Bootstrapping mechanisms developed earlier in the MIP6 WG
      require AAA support for Mobile IPv6. Part of this work is
      already being done in the DIME WG, but the MEXT WG is chartered
      to complete a design for RADIUS.


Work items related to base specification maintenance include:

(B.1) Create and maintain issue lists that are generated on the basis
      of implementation and interoperability experience. Address
      specific issues with specific updates or revisions of the base
      specification. One specific area of concern that should be
      analyzed and addressed relates to multilink subnets.

      This work item relates only to corrections and
      clarifications. The working group shall not revisit design
      decisions or change the protocol.

(B.2) Update the IANA considerations of RFC 3775 to allow extensions for
      experimental purposes as well passing of optional vendor-specific
      information.

(B.3) Finish working group documents that are currently in process, and
      submit for RFC. This includes prefix delegation protocol mechanism
      for network mobility, and a MIB for NEMO Basic Support.


Work items related to informational documentation include:

(C.1) Produce a design rationale that documents the historical
      thinking behind the introduction of an alternative security
      mechanism, the Authentication Protocol (RFC 4285).

The group employs IPsec and IKE as a security mechanism. The group
shall refrain, however, from making generic extensions to these
protocols. Any proposed extension must be reviewed by the ADs
before it can be accepted as a part of a work item.

Goals and Milestones:

Aug 2007    Submit -00 draft on Route Optimization Needs for Aircraft
and Spacecraft Deployments
Aug 2007    Submit -00 draft on Route Optimization Needs for Automobile
and Highway Deployments
Aug 2007    Submit Multiple CoA Registration to IESG

Sep 2007    Submit I-D 'Motivation for Authentication I-D' to IESG for
publication as Informational.
Sep 2007    Submit I-D 'Mobile IPv6 Dual-Stack Operation' to IESG for
publication as a Proposed Standard.

Oct 2007    Submit I-D 'Mobile IPv6 Vendor Specific Option' to IESG for
publication as a Proposed Standard
Oct 2007    Submit -00 draft on Route Optimization needs for Personal
Mobile Router

Nov 2007    Submit final doc on Route Optimization Needs for Aircraft
and Spacecraft Deployments, for Informational
Nov 2007    Submit I-D 'Goals for AAA HA Interface' to IESG for
publication as Informational.

Dec 2007    Submit -00 draft for solution to aircraft/spacecraft problem
Dec 2007    Submit I-D 'Mobile IPv6 Experimental Allocations' to IESG
for publication as a Proposed Standard.
Dec 2007    Submit the final doc on Prefix Delegation for NEMO to the
IESG, for Proposed Standard

Jan 2008    Submit final doc on Route Optimization Needs for Automobile
and Highway Deployments, for Informational
Jan 2008    Submit final doc on Route Optimization needs for Personal
Mobile Router, for Informational

Feb 2008    Submit the I-D 'RADIUS Mobile IPv6 Support' to IESG for
publication as a proposed standard.
Feb 2008    Determine how to proceed with remaining automotive/Personal
Mobile Router solutions

Mar 2008    Submit the final doc on MIB for NEMO Basic Support to the
IESG, for Proposed Standard
Mar 2008    Submit I-D 'Mobile IPv6 Operation with Firewalls' to IESG
for publication as Informational.

Apr 2008    Submit Flow/binding policy format to IESG, for Proposed Standard
Apr 2008    Submit Flow/binding policy transport to IESG, for Proposed
Standard
Apr 2008    Submit I-D 'Mobility Header Home Agent Switch Message' to
IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard.

May 2008    Submit final doc for solution to aircraft/spacecraft problem
to the IESG, for Proposed Standard
May 2008    Recharter to work on the remaining automotive/Personal
Mobile Router solutions

Jul 2008    Submit Multiple Interfaces Motivations and Scenario to IESG,
for Informational
Jul 2008    Submit Analysis of the use of Multiple Simultaneous Care-of
Addresses and Home Agent addresses, for Informational

Aug 2008    Submit I-D(s) related to specific updates and corrections of
RFC 3775 to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard.
Aug 2008    Submit I-D 'Home agent reliability' to IESG for publication
as a Proposed Standard.


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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:03:33 2007
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From: "Teco_Boot" <teco@inf-net.nl>
To: <chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com>
Subject: RE: [nemo] Interface roles: ingress and egress
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:04:20 +0200
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Thanks for the quick response.
I think it is described in B.2 Re-Establishment of Bi-Directional Tunnels in
draft-ietf-nemo-multihoming-issues-07.
I'll come back on the mutual exclusive issue.
Teco


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chan-Wah Ng [mailto:chanwah.ng@sg.panasonic.com]
> Sent: dinsdag 24 juli 2007 16:55
> To: Teco_Boot
> Cc: nemo@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [nemo] Interface roles: ingress and egress
> 
> Hello,
> 
> On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 15:01 +0200, Teco_Boot wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thomas Clausen presented a short introduction of a Mobile Router in the
> > Autoconf-MANEMO meeting. He also explained the interface roles Ingress
> and
> > Egress.
> > I prefer the term _interface roles_ over _interface types_. However, I
> > wonder this new term is accepted by the NEMO WG and if the impact is
> fully
> > understood. For example, we have to find out if the roles are mutually
> > exclusive.
> 
> I kind of agree with the _interface role_ terminology, as I do not
> believe the ingress and egress types are mutually exclusive.
> 
> In the multihoming issues draft (soon to be RFC), we have included in
> the Appendix C a suggestion for MR to listen to its ingress interface
> for other MRs, and if its original egress link is down, try to attach to
> said other MRs using its ingress interface.
> 
> I believe you are looking at this from a MANEMO perspective, and my
> description above is using a more "traditional" approach, but I think it
> wasn't that different from a higher layer.
> 
> /rgds
> /cwng
> 
> > A related issue is allowing the egress interface to act as a router
> > interface when attached to a foreign link; as this contradicts with NEMO
> > Basic Support.
> 
> > I suggest an impact analysis document on this issue is written.
> >
> > Teco.
> >
> >
> >





From mext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:51:28 2007
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To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
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Hi Jari and all,

I am sorry I should have commented the charter earlier, but here are 
some thoughts. We will take some time at the monami6 meeting on 
Wednesday to discuss those.

    - I was wondering how multiple HA addresses is linked to multiple 
home addresses allocated to mobile hosts. When talking about multiple 
interfaces (item A.3), the charter mainly talks about multiple CoAs and 
multiple HA addresses. However, in the current documents that we have in 
the Monami6 WG, we focus more on multiple CoAs and multiple HoAs. For 
example, the current working group document 
draft-ietf-monami6-multiplecoa-03.txt proposes a mechanism to bind 
multiple CoAs to a single HoA, not a single HA address as written in the 
MEXT charter ("A protocol extension to support the registration of 
multiple Care-of Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard Track].")

However, I think that multiple HA addresses do not imply that the node 
will have multiple HoAs, and vice versa (multiple HoAs do not imply that 
we have multiple HA addresses) (please correct me if I am wrong). I 
think that to fully consider the problem of multihomed MN in MobileIPv6 
/ NEMO, we should consider multiple CoAs, multiple HoAs, and multiple HA 
addresses. So I propose the following changes to the charter:

* 2nd paragraph in (A.3) Use of multiple interfaces.
from
When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces 
simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single 
network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple 
Care-of Addresses (CoAs). In addition, the Home Agent might be attached 
to multiple network interfaces, or to a single network interface with 
multiple prefixes, hence resulting in the option to use multiple IP 
addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the possibility of 
using a multitude
of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA} and 
a number of associated issues: establishment, selection and modification 
of multiple simultaneous tunnels.

to

When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces 
simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single 
network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple 
Care-of Addresses (CoAs) or multiple home addresses.
In addition, the Home Agent might be attached to multiple networks 
through multiple interfaces, or receive multiple IPv6 prefixes on a 
single network interface, hence resulting in the option to use multiple 
IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the possibility of 
using a multitude of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent 
address, CoA} and a number of associated issues: establishment, 
selection and modification of multiple simultaneous tunnels.

* deliverable 2:
from
- An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for
mobile hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses and Home
Agent addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are specific to
Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].

To
An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for mobile 
hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses, Home Agent 
addresses and Home addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are 
specific to Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].

* Deliverable 3:
from
A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of 
Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard Track].
TO
A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of 
Addresses to a single home address [Standard Track].

    - I have another issue with the fourth deliverable of this section 
A3. The current charter says in A3:

A "Flow/binding policies exchange" solution for an exchange of
policies from the mobile host/router to the Home Agent and from the
Home Agent to the mobile host/router influencing the choice of the
Care-of Address and Home Agent address. The solution involves two
specifications, one for the policy format and another for its
transport [both Standard Track].

I think this goal is not very clear and would need to be clarified. I 
can read here three different goals, which are:
    (1) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the CoA
    (2) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the HA address
    (3) Specify a generic format to describe the policies

I think that (1) should be re-written to "Policies enforcement from the 
mobile host/routerto the HA to influence the choice of the CoA." I 
suggest that because the mobile host/router is the only one to know the 
addresses that are mapped to its interfaces. What we need, is a protocol 
to indicate to the HA which CoA to use at the HA for a specific flow. 
The policies set up (e.g., I want VoIP over your Wifi interface) was 
always out of scope of the work in monami6.

(2) isn't it HA switching work?

(3) Can't we add an additional item to make clear that we will have 2 
documents?

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From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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Subject: Re: [MEXT] charter - final version
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Please find inline a couple more comments before it is published.

>Mobility EXTensions for IPv6 (MEXT)

>Description of Working Group:
>
>Mobile IPv6 specifies routing support which permits an IPv6 host to

The charter is alternatively using Mobile IPv6 / MIP6. I would suggest
adding the abbreviation the first time it is mentioned: "Mobile IPb6
(MIP6).

>continue using its home address as it moves around the Internet,
>enabling continuity of sessions. Mobile IPv6 supports transparency
>above the IP layer, including maintenance of active transport level
>sessions. In addition, NEMO network mobility mechanisms built on top
>of Mobile IPv6 allow managing the mobility of an entire network, as it

NEMO + network mobility = pleonasm. Change "NEMO network mobility
mechanisms" to "Network mobility (NEMO) mechanisms 

I would also remove "built on top of Mobile IPv6" as it would suggest
there is a dependance between MIPv6 and NEMO, which is not the case.
Both protocols are based on the same concepts and use the same
mechanisms.

>o RFC 3775
>o RFC 3963
>o RFC 4877

I would add the title of the RFC, not only the number. What about RFC
3776 ? 

Regarding NEMO, shouldn't we also add somewhere on the charter RFC 4885
to RFC 4889 as the newbie wouldn't have any hint they exist ? These are
important informational documents to justify the work being done and
the direction of the WG (something that is always missing in WG
charters).


>The MEXT Working Group continues the work of the MIP6, NEMO, and
>MONAMI6 Working Groups.

I would add "former" before MIP6, NEMO & MONANI6 WGs

>Deployment considerations call for (A.1) solutions to enable
>dual-stack operation, (A.2) mechanisms to support high-availability
>home agents, (A.3) allowing the use of multiple interfaces in mobile
>nodes, (A.4) ways to employ Mobile IPv6 in the presence of firewalls,

Mobile IPv6 => Mobile IPv6/NEMO 

>(A.5) address the specific needs of automotive and aviation
>communities for route optimisation in network mobility, and (A.6)
>support for AAA is needed as a continuation of earlier work on
>bootstrapping.
>
>Work items related to large scale deployment include:
>
>(A.1) A Solution for MIP6 session continuity for dual stack hosts which

MIP6 session => MIP6/NEMO session 


>      attach to IPv4 access networks. Additionally provide a mechanism
>      for carrying IPv4 packets via the Home agent for MIP6 capable
>      dual-stack hosts.

MIP6/NEMO capable 

>
>(A.2) A protocol based solution for enhancing the reliability of home
>      agents and a method to force a host to switch home agents.

host => host/router

>      A mechanism to force an MN to switch the HA that is currently
>      serving it. This is required in deployments where the HA needs to
>      be taken offline for maintenance.


No more comments on the remaining text.


Thanks,
Thierry

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From mext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 16:32:10 2007
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Nicolas,

I have not sent this forward yet, so there is time to make
edits.

However, as I recall the Monami6 chartering process, the
decision to not focus on multiple home addresses was done
deliberately. That is, the use of multiple home addresses
is very close to the generic multihoming problem and it
seemed inappropriate to try to address that in a mobility
working group.

So, while I agree that the current text is not the best
possible one, I'm not sure the new text is right either...

Jari

> I am sorry I should have commented the charter earlier, but here are
> some thoughts. We will take some time at the monami6 meeting on
> Wednesday to discuss those.
>
>    - I was wondering how multiple HA addresses is linked to multiple
> home addresses allocated to mobile hosts. When talking about multiple
> interfaces (item A.3), the charter mainly talks about multiple CoAs
> and multiple HA addresses. However, in the current documents that we
> have in the Monami6 WG, we focus more on multiple CoAs and multiple
> HoAs. For example, the current working group document
> draft-ietf-monami6-multiplecoa-03.txt proposes a mechanism to bind
> multiple CoAs to a single HoA, not a single HA address as written in
> the MEXT charter ("A protocol extension to support the registration of
> multiple Care-of Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard
> Track].")
>
> However, I think that multiple HA addresses do not imply that the node
> will have multiple HoAs, and vice versa (multiple HoAs do not imply
> that we have multiple HA addresses) (please correct me if I am wrong).
> I think that to fully consider the problem of multihomed MN in
> MobileIPv6 / NEMO, we should consider multiple CoAs, multiple HoAs,
> and multiple HA addresses. So I propose the following changes to the
> charter:
>
> * 2nd paragraph in (A.3) Use of multiple interfaces.
> from
> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
> Care-of Addresses (CoAs). In addition, the Home Agent might be
> attached to multiple network interfaces, or to a single network
> interface with multiple prefixes, hence resulting in the option to use
> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
> possibility of using a multitude
> of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA}
> and a number of associated issues: establishment, selection and
> modification of multiple simultaneous tunnels.
>
> to
>
> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
> Care-of Addresses (CoAs) or multiple home addresses.
> In addition, the Home Agent might be attached to multiple networks
> through multiple interfaces, or receive multiple IPv6 prefixes on a
> single network interface, hence resulting in the option to use
> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
> possibility of using a multitude of bi-directional tunnels between
> pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA} and a number of associated issues:
> establishment, selection and modification of multiple simultaneous
> tunnels.
>
> * deliverable 2:
> from
> - An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for
> mobile hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses and Home
> Agent addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are specific to
> Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>
> To
> An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for mobile
> hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses, Home Agent
> addresses and Home addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are
> specific to Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>
> * Deliverable 3:
> from
> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
> Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard Track].
> TO
> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
> Addresses to a single home address [Standard Track].
>
>    - I have another issue with the fourth deliverable of this section
> A3. The current charter says in A3:
>
> A "Flow/binding policies exchange" solution for an exchange of
> policies from the mobile host/router to the Home Agent and from the
> Home Agent to the mobile host/router influencing the choice of the
> Care-of Address and Home Agent address. The solution involves two
> specifications, one for the policy format and another for its
> transport [both Standard Track].
>
> I think this goal is not very clear and would need to be clarified. I
> can read here three different goals, which are:
>    (1) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the CoA
>    (2) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the HA address
>    (3) Specify a generic format to describe the policies
>
> I think that (1) should be re-written to "Policies enforcement from
> the mobile host/routerto the HA to influence the choice of the CoA." I
> suggest that because the mobile host/router is the only one to know
> the addresses that are mapped to its interfaces. What we need, is a
> protocol to indicate to the HA which CoA to use at the HA for a
> specific flow. The policies set up (e.g., I want VoIP over your Wifi
> interface) was always out of scope of the work in monami6.
>
> (2) isn't it HA switching work?
>
> (3) Can't we add an additional item to make clear that we will have 2
> documents?
>
>


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From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 16:58:14 2007
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Hi,

Can someone please volunteer to be a jabber scribe and someone else 
volunteer to take minutes for the NEMO meeting tomorrow morning?

Thanks,
TJ




From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 17:18:36 2007
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Subject: RE: [nemo] Submitted I-D draft-baldessari-c2ccc-nemo-req-01
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Dear Thierry,

thanks a lot for the comments, see inline mine.

>=20
>    The following new terms are used in this document:
>=20
>    o  Application Unit (AU): a portable or built-in device connected
>       temporarily or permanently to the vehicle OBU.  It is=20
> assumed that
>       AUs support a standard TCP/IPv6 protocol stack, optionally
>       enhanced with IP Mobility support.  With respect to the NEMO
>       terminology, an AU is a generic MNN.
>=20
> =3D> Why AUs would be enhanced with IP mobility support ? If=20
> you are considering hand-held devices, may be this should be=20
> added as a justification.
>=20

[Roberto] Right. In fact this is not consistence with RO Scenario =
section and will be removed in next version.

>      =20
>    Vehicles' OBUs and stationary units along the road, termed=20
> road-side
>    units (RSUs), form an ad hoc network. =20
>=20
> =3D> Is this necessarily the case ? (having read all the draft,=20
> this seems to be required from the point of view of the=20
> C2C-CC, but taking the OBU from a more generic stand point ?)
>=20

[Roberto] Agreed. "form an ad hoc network" to be removed in next =
version.

> 3.2.  Protocol Architecture
>=20
>    The protocol stack currently considered by C2C-CC for OBUs is
>    depicted in Figure 2.
>=20
>                +--------------------+------------------+
>                |                    |                  |
>                |       C2C-CC       |     IP-based     |
>                |    Applications    |   Applications   |
>                |                    |                  |
>                +--------------------+------------------+
>                |                    |    TCP/UDP/...   |
>                |  C2C-CC Transport  +------------------+
>                |                    |                  |
>                +--------------------+-----+    IPv6    |
>                |                          |            |
>                |      C2C-CC Network      |            |
>                |                          |            |
>                +--------------------+-----+------------+
>                |      Modified      |  Standard WLAN   |
>                |    IEEE 802.11p    | IEEE 802.11a/b/g |
>                +--------------------+------------------+
>=20
>                        Figure 2: OBU Protocol Stack
>=20
> =3D> Wouldn't is be useful to also show on another figure the=20
> protocol stack at the AU and the RSU (if it differs).=20
>=20

[Roberto] we'll put a figure in next version or at least a brief =
description of AU and RSU stack in the text.

>=20
> 3.3.  IPv6 Deployment
>=20
>=20
>    o  On the IEEE 802.11a/b/g interface directly: in this method, IPv6
>       headers are sent directly to the wireless LAN interface as
>       specified by [5].
>=20
> =3D> This is not the RFC you had in mind.=20

[Roberto] Uhm, I think it is.
We wanted to cite how IPv6 is transmitted on IEEE 802.11a/b/g. As far as =
I know, IEEE 802.11 MAC by default provides transmission of Ethernet =
Type II headers (14 Bytes [src|dst|proto type]). In the end, it provides =
a kind of Ethernet abstraction layer. So, I think that RFC 2464 applies =
to 802.11-based technology.

>=20
>    The following informational list briefly summarizes currently
>    discussed design concepts:
>=20
>    o  vehicles use only IPv6 addresses with as host part an EUI-64
>       identifier derived from the MAC address. =20
>=20
> =3D> I wonder why this constraint ? Why not using random=20
> generation of the host id part ?
>=20

[Roberto] I clarified this offline. The draft here refers to the egress =
iface. C2C uses only EUI-64 identifier derived from the MAC address in =
order to avoid IPv6 to MAC address resolution via NS/NA.

>=20
>    o  when infrastructure access is not available, OBUs use addresses
>       with as prefix part a predefined IPv6 prefix (either=20
> reserved for
>       C2C-C communications or a general purpose one);
>=20
> =3D> "when infrastructure access is not available": it depends=20
> if you mean "infrastructure access not always available", or=20
> "infrastructure access never available". If the former, you=20
> could remove "when infrastructure access is not available"=20
> because OBUs would always use the same prefix
>=20

[Roberto] Ok, rephrasing in the text is needed.=20

> 4.1. Scope of NEMO
>=20
>    As it does not seem realistic that every car owner will also
>    subscribe for such a service [Home Agent]
>=20
> =3D> Why not ? It can (and should IMHO) be required in the=20
> C2C-CC architecture
>=20

[Roberto] I'll rephrase this. The point here was that it is not expected =
that every car with C2C stack will also run NEMO. C2C is concerned about =
costs and there will be differentiation among cars level, e.g. basic and =
extended systems. Nevertheless, the phrase might sound strange in this =
context.

> 4.2.2.  Peer-to-peer Applications
>=20
>    In this set of use cases, the same applications should be=20
> able to run
>    in V2V and V2I mode.  As applications should not be aware=20
> of routing
>    nor addressing issues, they should use the same identifier for
>    sessions and users (e.g. cars/drivers/passengers) independently of
>    the communications mode.  Possible approaches are either to adopt
>    resolution mechanisms or actually maintain the same network
>    identifier in both V2V and V2I modes.  This could be achieved for
>    example generalizing the concept of Mobile Network Prefix (MNP) and
>    allowing a Mobile Router (OBU) to use it for V2V communications in
>    absence of attachment points.  By means of enforcing=20
> limited lifetime
>    for IPv6 prefixes and due to the isolation of VANET=20
> clusters from the
>    infrastructure (in V2V), this use of MNP should not=20
> introduce routing
>    inconsistencies.
>=20
> =3D> For this particular paragraph, I think you need to explain=20
> how it fits with NEMO.
>=20
>=20

[Roberto] We'll address this in next version.

>=20
>    The requirements defined in this document refer to RO=20
> between MR and
>    CR (Correspondent Router).  According to C2C-CC use cases,=20
> the CR can
>    be:
>=20
> =3D> Here (and everywhere above in the remaining parts of this=20
> draft), I would suggest to use CN, or CE. Currently, there is=20
> no reasons to assume that RO would be performed with a CR.
>=20

[Roberto] Yes. this is very important.=20
After re-thinking I agree. to summarize, RO is between MR and CE. CE can =
be:
1) a NEMO MR
2) a router (not a MR) implementing NEMO RO
3) a CN, i.e. IPv6 host
4) a MIPv6 CN

case 4) does not have such a high priority in automotive, because in the =
identified use cases the MR will mainly talk to newly deployed nodes. =
Anyway, if RO is provided also for 4), it is definitely beneficial.

>    In the first case, the connectivity to the infrastructure is
>    available only for short time intervals.  Vehicles' applications
>    exchange data packets with nodes in the infrastructure in form of
>    short bursts, containing for example traffic updates or information
>    about local points of interests.  In this situation,=20
> providing prompt
>    and reliable communication is more important than achieving optimal
>    routing or highest available throughput.  In particular, the
>    additional delay for RO establishment with every CRs can have a
>    considerable negative impact.  Furthermore, in some situations the
>    path through MR-HA tunnel might be considered more reliable and
>    trustworthy than a direct one to the CR.  In particular, the tunnel
>    allows the MR to hide its CoA from the CR which results in=20
> a location
>    privacy protection.  Therefore:
>=20
> =3D> It's not for granted in the case where the CN would be=20
> immediately behind the RSU. The path through the HA would be=20
> considerably longer and is obviously less trustworthy than=20
> the MR-HA tunnel (the path MR-AR-CN compares with the path=20
> MR-AR-...-HA-HA-...-AR-CN)
>=20
>=20

[Roberto] Fine. As you pointed out, a good way to address this is to add =
a requirement about maximum allowed delay due to RO establishment. If =
providing numbers is not feasible, the requirement will be more generic =
but still valid.
The point that in some cases (e.g. exchange of very few packets) =
establishing RO is not a good idea, is still valid.

> 6.2.  Req 2 - MNN IPsec
>=20
>    A RO technique SHOULD allow MNNs connected to the MR to=20
> use IPsec as
>    if they were connected to a regular access router.
>=20
>    This requirement comes from the fact that no assumption can be made
>    on pre-existing trust relationships between passenger=20
> devices and the
>    OBU.  Therefore, passenger devices (assumed to run IPv6 without
>    Mobility Support) should be able to use full IPsec functionalities
>    when connecting to the infrastructure via a MR.
>=20
> =3D> This requirement doesn't make much sense to me. Each IPv6=20
> node is supposed to support IPsec, so it is guaranteed that=20
> MNN won't  be prevented from using IPsec.
>=20
>=20

[Roberto] If full IPsec support is understood among RO solution =
designers, then the requirement can be removed. If not, the requirement =
has the benefit to make them aware of something they might not consider. =


I would pose this as a question during the session. My default choice =
would be to keep it, but pointing out in the text that it is added for =
sake of clearness.

> 6.4.  Req 4 - Privacy Protection
>=20
>    A RO technique MUST not require that the MNP is revealed=20
> to all nodes
>    in the visited network.  Instead, a RO technique MUST allow for
>    revealing the MNP only to selected nodes in the visited network.
>    Furthermore, a RO technique SHOULD allow that MNP and HoA are not
>    exchanged as clear text.
>=20
> =3D> It should be "MUST allow" (since you wrote about "allowance").
>=20
>=20

[Roberto] ok.

> 6.5.  Req 5 - Multihoming
>=20
>    A RO technique MUST allow a MR to be simultaneously connected to
>    multiple access networks, having multiple prefixes and Care-Of
>    Addresses in a MONAMI6 context.
>=20
>    In other words, it is required that a RO technique can be used on
>    multiple communication technologies.  Assuming that mechanisms for
>    registering and handling multiple CoAs are provided from=20
> the MONAMI6
>    work, NEMO RO should be usable for every available CoA.
>=20
>    This requirement is also specified in [9].
>=20
> 6.6.  Req 6 - Coexistence with Sub-IPv6 RO
>=20
>    A RO technique MUST allow for coexistence in the same OBU with a RO
>    technique offered by the sub-IPv6 C2C-CC Network layer. =20
> The OBU MUST
>    be able to choose which technique to use when both are=20
> simultaneously
>    available.
>=20
> =3D> What about the HA ?=20
>=20

[Roberto] HA would not be aware of sub-IPv6 RO. This might raise =
administrative issues. I don't think that they are in the scope of RO =
design. If you refer to security issues, they would be fixed by means of =
C2C-CC security functionalities.

>=20
> =3D> In line with section 5, I think that a requirement "Delay=20
> in RO establishment" is missing in section 6. i.e. the RO=20
> mechanism should be fast enough to adapt to CoA change in=20
> order to fit with VANET needs.
>=20

[Roberto]already addressed.


> =3D> I would suggest to check if the listed RO requirements=20
> match all of RFC 4886 design goals. For instance, signaling=20
> overhead, transparency, etc. The C2C-CC may have specific=20
> considerations.
>=20
>=20

[Roberto] ok.



Roberto




From mext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 17:30:51 2007
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Dear Jari,

I fully agree with Nicolas opinion about the multiple HoAs.

We will assume a general situation in where a mobile node with three
heterogeneous interfaces such as 802.11, CDMA, and 802.16e. In this
situation, we will also assume that each technology is provided in different
service provider. Then each interface has own home address for supporting
connectivity to own subscribers.

Therefore, there are so several issues to clarify in this situation as like
according to the draft of "mip6 analysis" such as registration to given home
agent, synchronizations between multiple home agents, and so on. 

Regarding a position of Administrators for each different L2 technologies,
the issues of multiple home agents and addresses should be handled. And I
think that the issues are belonging to mobility extension work.

Regarding
Taewan.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:32 AM
> To: Nicolas Montavont
> Cc: mext@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
> 
> 
> Nicolas,
> 
> I have not sent this forward yet, so there is time to make
> edits.
> 
> However, as I recall the Monami6 chartering process, the
> decision to not focus on multiple home addresses was done
> deliberately. That is, the use of multiple home addresses
> is very close to the generic multihoming problem and it
> seemed inappropriate to try to address that in a mobility
> working group.
> 
> So, while I agree that the current text is not the best
> possible one, I'm not sure the new text is right either...
> 
> Jari
> 
> > I am sorry I should have commented the charter earlier, but here are
> > some thoughts. We will take some time at the monami6 meeting on
> > Wednesday to discuss those.
> >
> >    - I was wondering how multiple HA addresses is linked to multiple
> > home addresses allocated to mobile hosts. When talking about multiple
> > interfaces (item A.3), the charter mainly talks about multiple CoAs
> > and multiple HA addresses. However, in the current documents that we
> > have in the Monami6 WG, we focus more on multiple CoAs and multiple
> > HoAs. For example, the current working group document
> > draft-ietf-monami6-multiplecoa-03.txt proposes a mechanism to bind
> > multiple CoAs to a single HoA, not a single HA address as written in
> > the MEXT charter ("A protocol extension to support the registration of
> > multiple Care-of Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard
> > Track].")
> >
> > However, I think that multiple HA addresses do not imply that the node
> > will have multiple HoAs, and vice versa (multiple HoAs do not imply
> > that we have multiple HA addresses) (please correct me if I am wrong).
> > I think that to fully consider the problem of multihomed MN in
> > MobileIPv6 / NEMO, we should consider multiple CoAs, multiple HoAs,
> > and multiple HA addresses. So I propose the following changes to the
> > charter:
> >
> > * 2nd paragraph in (A.3) Use of multiple interfaces.
> > from
> > When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
> > simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
> > network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
> > Care-of Addresses (CoAs). In addition, the Home Agent might be
> > attached to multiple network interfaces, or to a single network
> > interface with multiple prefixes, hence resulting in the option to use
> > multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
> > possibility of using a multitude
> > of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA}
> > and a number of associated issues: establishment, selection and
> > modification of multiple simultaneous tunnels.
> >
> > to
> >
> > When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
> > simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
> > network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
> > Care-of Addresses (CoAs) or multiple home addresses.
> > In addition, the Home Agent might be attached to multiple networks
> > through multiple interfaces, or receive multiple IPv6 prefixes on a
> > single network interface, hence resulting in the option to use
> > multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
> > possibility of using a multitude of bi-directional tunnels between
> > pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA} and a number of associated issues:
> > establishment, selection and modification of multiple simultaneous
> > tunnels.
> >
> > * deliverable 2:
> > from
> > - An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for
> > mobile hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses and Home
> > Agent addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are specific to
> > Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
> >
> > To
> > An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for mobile
> > hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses, Home Agent
> > addresses and Home addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are
> > specific to Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
> >
> > * Deliverable 3:
> > from
> > A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
> > Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard Track].
> > TO
> > A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
> > Addresses to a single home address [Standard Track].
> >
> >    - I have another issue with the fourth deliverable of this section
> > A3. The current charter says in A3:
> >
> > A "Flow/binding policies exchange" solution for an exchange of
> > policies from the mobile host/router to the Home Agent and from the
> > Home Agent to the mobile host/router influencing the choice of the
> > Care-of Address and Home Agent address. The solution involves two
> > specifications, one for the policy format and another for its
> > transport [both Standard Track].
> >
> > I think this goal is not very clear and would need to be clarified. I
> > can read here three different goals, which are:
> >    (1) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the CoA
> >    (2) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the HA address
> >    (3) Specify a generic format to describe the policies
> >
> > I think that (1) should be re-written to "Policies enforcement from
> > the mobile host/routerto the HA to influence the choice of the CoA." I
> > suggest that because the mobile host/router is the only one to know
> > the addresses that are mapped to its interfaces. What we need, is a
> > protocol to indicate to the HA which CoA to use at the HA for a
> > specific flow. The policies set up (e.g., I want VoIP over your Wifi
> > interface) was always out of scope of the work in monami6.
> >
> > (2) isn't it HA switching work?
> >
> > (3) Can't we add an additional item to make clear that we will have 2
> > documents?
> >
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MEXT mailing list
> MEXT@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext


_______________________________________________
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From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
To: mext@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
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>I have not sent this forward yet, so there is time to make
>edits.
>
>However, as I recall the Monami6 chartering process, the
>decision to not focus on multiple home addresses was done
>deliberately. That is, the use of multiple home addresses
>is very close to the generic multihoming problem and it
>seemed inappropriate to try to address that in a mobility
>working group.
>
>So, while I agree that the current text is not the best
>possible one, I'm not sure the new text is right either...

You are right, this is resulting from the MonAmi6 chartering process. 

The problem is that a CoA is bound to a particular HoA, not the HA
address, so we cannot skip dealing with the HoA. 

Not dealing with all of the cases bring inconsistancy between the
charter and the documents. I'm in favor of clarity in the charter and
the problem statements. Regarding the solutions, I think everyone will
understand that the group is not going to work on issues dealt with
Shim6 or other groups.

Thierry


>Jari
>
>> I am sorry I should have commented the charter earlier, but here are
>> some thoughts. We will take some time at the monami6 meeting on
>> Wednesday to discuss those.
>>
>>    - I was wondering how multiple HA addresses is linked to multiple
>> home addresses allocated to mobile hosts. When talking about multiple
>> interfaces (item A.3), the charter mainly talks about multiple CoAs
>> and multiple HA addresses. However, in the current documents that we
>> have in the Monami6 WG, we focus more on multiple CoAs and multiple
>> HoAs. For example, the current working group document
>> draft-ietf-monami6-multiplecoa-03.txt proposes a mechanism to bind
>> multiple CoAs to a single HoA, not a single HA address as written in
>> the MEXT charter ("A protocol extension to support the registration of
>> multiple Care-of Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard
>> Track].")
>>
>> However, I think that multiple HA addresses do not imply that the node
>> will have multiple HoAs, and vice versa (multiple HoAs do not imply
>> that we have multiple HA addresses) (please correct me if I am wrong).
>> I think that to fully consider the problem of multihomed MN in
>> MobileIPv6 / NEMO, we should consider multiple CoAs, multiple HoAs,
>> and multiple HA addresses. So I propose the following changes to the
>> charter:
>>
>> * 2nd paragraph in (A.3) Use of multiple interfaces.
>> from
>> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
>> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
>> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
>> Care-of Addresses (CoAs). In addition, the Home Agent might be
>> attached to multiple network interfaces, or to a single network
>> interface with multiple prefixes, hence resulting in the option to use
>> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
>> possibility of using a multitude
>> of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA}
>> and a number of associated issues: establishment, selection and
>> modification of multiple simultaneous tunnels.
>>
>> to
>>
>> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
>> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
>> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
>> Care-of Addresses (CoAs) or multiple home addresses.
>> In addition, the Home Agent might be attached to multiple networks
>> through multiple interfaces, or receive multiple IPv6 prefixes on a
>> single network interface, hence resulting in the option to use
>> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
>> possibility of using a multitude of bi-directional tunnels between
>> pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA} and a number of associated issues:
>> establishment, selection and modification of multiple simultaneous
>> tunnels.
>>
>> * deliverable 2:
>> from
>> - An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for
>> mobile hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses and Home
>> Agent addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are specific to
>> Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>>
>> To
>> An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for mobile
>> hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses, Home Agent
>> addresses and Home addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are
>> specific to Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>>
>> * Deliverable 3:
>> from
>> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
>> Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard Track].
>> TO
>> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
>> Addresses to a single home address [Standard Track].
>>
>>    - I have another issue with the fourth deliverable of this section
>> A3. The current charter says in A3:
>>
>> A "Flow/binding policies exchange" solution for an exchange of
>> policies from the mobile host/router to the Home Agent and from the
>> Home Agent to the mobile host/router influencing the choice of the
>> Care-of Address and Home Agent address. The solution involves two
>> specifications, one for the policy format and another for its
>> transport [both Standard Track].
>>
>> I think this goal is not very clear and would need to be clarified. I
>> can read here three different goals, which are:
>>    (1) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the CoA
>>    (2) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the HA address
>>    (3) Specify a generic format to describe the policies
>>
>> I think that (1) should be re-written to "Policies enforcement from
>> the mobile host/routerto the HA to influence the choice of the CoA." I
>> suggest that because the mobile host/router is the only one to know
>> the addresses that are mapped to its interfaces. What we need, is a
>> protocol to indicate to the HA which CoA to use at the HA for a
>> specific flow. The policies set up (e.g., I want VoIP over your Wifi
>> interface) was always out of scope of the work in monami6.
>>
>> (2) isn't it HA switching work?
>>
>> (3) Can't we add an additional item to make clear that we will have 2
>> documents?
>>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>MEXT mailing list
>MEXT@ietf.org
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext
>


-- 
Thierry ERNST, PhD 
INRIA Rocquencourt France Project-Team IMARA / JRU LARA
http://www.lara.prd.fr +33 1 39 63 59 30 (office)
-- 
The coming end of the IPv4 world: http://penrose.uk6x.com

_______________________________________________
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Correction - can we have a scribe volunteer for the *Thursday* morning 
meeting?

(Must be jetlag..)

Thanks
TJ

T.J. Kniveton wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can someone please volunteer to be a jabber scribe and someone else 
> volunteer to take minutes for the NEMO meeting tomorrow morning?
>
> Thanks,
> TJ
>
>





From mext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 18:07:49 2007
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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:07:26 -0500
From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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To: Taewan You <twyou@etri.re.kr>
Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
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There is no question that the issues exist. The argument
was that this is not the right place to deal with them.

Jari

Taewan You kirjoitti:
> Dear Jari,
>
> I fully agree with Nicolas opinion about the multiple HoAs.
>
> We will assume a general situation in where a mobile node with three
> heterogeneous interfaces such as 802.11, CDMA, and 802.16e. In this
> situation, we will also assume that each technology is provided in different
> service provider. Then each interface has own home address for supporting
> connectivity to own subscribers.
>
> Therefore, there are so several issues to clarify in this situation as like
> according to the draft of "mip6 analysis" such as registration to given home
> agent, synchronizations between multiple home agents, and so on. 
>
> Regarding a position of Administrators for each different L2 technologies,
> the issues of multiple home agents and addresses should be handled. And I
> think that the issues are belonging to mobility extension work.
>
> Regarding
> Taewan.
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:32 AM
>> To: Nicolas Montavont
>> Cc: mext@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [MEXT] new charter version
>>
>>
>> Nicolas,
>>
>> I have not sent this forward yet, so there is time to make
>> edits.
>>
>> However, as I recall the Monami6 chartering process, the
>> decision to not focus on multiple home addresses was done
>> deliberately. That is, the use of multiple home addresses
>> is very close to the generic multihoming problem and it
>> seemed inappropriate to try to address that in a mobility
>> working group.
>>
>> So, while I agree that the current text is not the best
>> possible one, I'm not sure the new text is right either...
>>
>> Jari
>>
>>     
>>> I am sorry I should have commented the charter earlier, but here are
>>> some thoughts. We will take some time at the monami6 meeting on
>>> Wednesday to discuss those.
>>>
>>>    - I was wondering how multiple HA addresses is linked to multiple
>>> home addresses allocated to mobile hosts. When talking about multiple
>>> interfaces (item A.3), the charter mainly talks about multiple CoAs
>>> and multiple HA addresses. However, in the current documents that we
>>> have in the Monami6 WG, we focus more on multiple CoAs and multiple
>>> HoAs. For example, the current working group document
>>> draft-ietf-monami6-multiplecoa-03.txt proposes a mechanism to bind
>>> multiple CoAs to a single HoA, not a single HA address as written in
>>> the MEXT charter ("A protocol extension to support the registration of
>>> multiple Care-of Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard
>>> Track].")
>>>
>>> However, I think that multiple HA addresses do not imply that the node
>>> will have multiple HoAs, and vice versa (multiple HoAs do not imply
>>> that we have multiple HA addresses) (please correct me if I am wrong).
>>> I think that to fully consider the problem of multihomed MN in
>>> MobileIPv6 / NEMO, we should consider multiple CoAs, multiple HoAs,
>>> and multiple HA addresses. So I propose the following changes to the
>>> charter:
>>>
>>> * 2nd paragraph in (A.3) Use of multiple interfaces.
>>> from
>>> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
>>> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
>>> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
>>> Care-of Addresses (CoAs). In addition, the Home Agent might be
>>> attached to multiple network interfaces, or to a single network
>>> interface with multiple prefixes, hence resulting in the option to use
>>> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
>>> possibility of using a multitude
>>> of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA}
>>> and a number of associated issues: establishment, selection and
>>> modification of multiple simultaneous tunnels.
>>>
>>> to
>>>
>>> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
>>> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
>>> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
>>> Care-of Addresses (CoAs) or multiple home addresses.
>>> In addition, the Home Agent might be attached to multiple networks
>>> through multiple interfaces, or receive multiple IPv6 prefixes on a
>>> single network interface, hence resulting in the option to use
>>> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
>>> possibility of using a multitude of bi-directional tunnels between
>>> pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA} and a number of associated issues:
>>> establishment, selection and modification of multiple simultaneous
>>> tunnels.
>>>
>>> * deliverable 2:
>>> from
>>> - An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for
>>> mobile hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses and Home
>>> Agent addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are specific to
>>> Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>>>
>>> To
>>> An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for mobile
>>> hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses, Home Agent
>>> addresses and Home addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are
>>> specific to Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>>>
>>> * Deliverable 3:
>>> from
>>> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
>>> Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard Track].
>>> TO
>>> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
>>> Addresses to a single home address [Standard Track].
>>>
>>>    - I have another issue with the fourth deliverable of this section
>>> A3. The current charter says in A3:
>>>
>>> A "Flow/binding policies exchange" solution for an exchange of
>>> policies from the mobile host/router to the Home Agent and from the
>>> Home Agent to the mobile host/router influencing the choice of the
>>> Care-of Address and Home Agent address. The solution involves two
>>> specifications, one for the policy format and another for its
>>> transport [both Standard Track].
>>>
>>> I think this goal is not very clear and would need to be clarified. I
>>> can read here three different goals, which are:
>>>    (1) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the CoA
>>>    (2) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the HA address
>>>    (3) Specify a generic format to describe the policies
>>>
>>> I think that (1) should be re-written to "Policies enforcement from
>>> the mobile host/routerto the HA to influence the choice of the CoA." I
>>> suggest that because the mobile host/router is the only one to know
>>> the addresses that are mapped to its interfaces. What we need, is a
>>> protocol to indicate to the HA which CoA to use at the HA for a
>>> specific flow. The policies set up (e.g., I want VoIP over your Wifi
>>> interface) was always out of scope of the work in monami6.
>>>
>>> (2) isn't it HA switching work?
>>>
>>> (3) Can't we add an additional item to make clear that we will have 2
>>> documents?
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> MEXT mailing list
>> MEXT@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext
>>     
>
>
>
>   


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From mext-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:01:14 2007
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Hi Jari,

Jari Arkko wrote:
> Nicolas,
>
> I have not sent this forward yet, so there is time to make
> edits.
>
> However, as I recall the Monami6 chartering process, the
> decision to not focus on multiple home addresses was done
> deliberately. That is, the use of multiple home addresses
> is very close to the generic multihoming problem and it
> seemed inappropriate to try to address that in a mobility
> working group.
>   
I remember and still agree. I think that it is not the job of monami6 
(and MEXT) to propose solutions for multiple HoA management.
> So, while I agree that the current text is not the best
> possible one, I'm not sure the new text is right either...
>   
However I think that we can (and should) enhance the text, without 
proposing more work that we are actually doing in Monami6 (and follow in 
MEXT). For example, the item 3 (registration of multiple CoA) is 
definitely the registration of multiple CoA to a single home address, 
and not for a single HA address as we have now in the charter.

The other changes I proposed (on the multiple HoAs issue) mainly 
concerns the problem statement document and does not suggest to deal 
with the problem in this working group. Indeed, in the problem statement 
document we suggest either to use other multihoming protocol (such as 
shim6), or to be able to register a HoA as a CoA in specific configuration.

Regards,
Nicolas
> Jari
>
>   
>> I am sorry I should have commented the charter earlier, but here are
>> some thoughts. We will take some time at the monami6 meeting on
>> Wednesday to discuss those.
>>
>>    - I was wondering how multiple HA addresses is linked to multiple
>> home addresses allocated to mobile hosts. When talking about multiple
>> interfaces (item A.3), the charter mainly talks about multiple CoAs
>> and multiple HA addresses. However, in the current documents that we
>> have in the Monami6 WG, we focus more on multiple CoAs and multiple
>> HoAs. For example, the current working group document
>> draft-ietf-monami6-multiplecoa-03.txt proposes a mechanism to bind
>> multiple CoAs to a single HoA, not a single HA address as written in
>> the MEXT charter ("A protocol extension to support the registration of
>> multiple Care-of Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard
>> Track].")
>>
>> However, I think that multiple HA addresses do not imply that the node
>> will have multiple HoAs, and vice versa (multiple HoAs do not imply
>> that we have multiple HA addresses) (please correct me if I am wrong).
>> I think that to fully consider the problem of multihomed MN in
>> MobileIPv6 / NEMO, we should consider multiple CoAs, multiple HoAs,
>> and multiple HA addresses. So I propose the following changes to the
>> charter:
>>
>> * 2nd paragraph in (A.3) Use of multiple interfaces.
>> from
>> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
>> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
>> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
>> Care-of Addresses (CoAs). In addition, the Home Agent might be
>> attached to multiple network interfaces, or to a single network
>> interface with multiple prefixes, hence resulting in the option to use
>> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
>> possibility of using a multitude
>> of bi-directional tunnels between pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA}
>> and a number of associated issues: establishment, selection and
>> modification of multiple simultaneous tunnels.
>>
>> to
>>
>> When a mobile host/router uses multiple network interfaces
>> simultaneously, or when multiple prefixes are available on a single
>> network interface, the mobile host/router would end up with multiple
>> Care-of Addresses (CoAs) or multiple home addresses.
>> In addition, the Home Agent might be attached to multiple networks
>> through multiple interfaces, or receive multiple IPv6 prefixes on a
>> single network interface, hence resulting in the option to use
>> multiple IP addresses for the Home Agent. This could result in the
>> possibility of using a multitude of bi-directional tunnels between
>> pairs of {Home Agent address, CoA} and a number of associated issues:
>> establishment, selection and modification of multiple simultaneous
>> tunnels.
>>
>> * deliverable 2:
>> from
>> - An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for
>> mobile hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses and Home
>> Agent addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are specific to
>> Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>>
>> To
>> An analysis document explaining what are the limitations for mobile
>> hosts using multiple simultaneous Care-of Addresses, Home Agent
>> addresses and Home addresses using Mobile IPv6, whether issues are
>> specific to Mobile IPv6 or not [Informational].
>>
>> * Deliverable 3:
>> from
>> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
>> Addresses at a given Home Agent address [Standard Track].
>> TO
>> A protocol extension to support the registration of multiple Care-of
>> Addresses to a single home address [Standard Track].
>>
>>    - I have another issue with the fourth deliverable of this section
>> A3. The current charter says in A3:
>>
>> A "Flow/binding policies exchange" solution for an exchange of
>> policies from the mobile host/router to the Home Agent and from the
>> Home Agent to the mobile host/router influencing the choice of the
>> Care-of Address and Home Agent address. The solution involves two
>> specifications, one for the policy format and another for its
>> transport [both Standard Track].
>>
>> I think this goal is not very clear and would need to be clarified. I
>> can read here three different goals, which are:
>>    (1) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the CoA
>>    (2) Exchange policies to influence the choice of the HA address
>>    (3) Specify a generic format to describe the policies
>>
>> I think that (1) should be re-written to "Policies enforcement from
>> the mobile host/routerto the HA to influence the choice of the CoA." I
>> suggest that because the mobile host/router is the only one to know
>> the addresses that are mapped to its interfaces. What we need, is a
>> protocol to indicate to the HA which CoA to use at the HA for a
>> specific flow. The policies set up (e.g., I want VoIP over your Wifi
>> interface) was always out of scope of the work in monami6.
>>
>> (2) isn't it HA switching work?
>>
>> (3) Can't we add an additional item to make clear that we will have 2
>> documents?
>>
>>
>>     


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext



From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:01:59 2007
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I can volunteer for this.

Regards
Marshall

On Jul 24, 2007, at 6:00 PM, T.J. Kniveton wrote:

> Correction - can we have a scribe volunteer for the *Thursday*  
> morning meeting?
>
> (Must be jetlag..)
>
> Thanks
> TJ
>
> T.J. Kniveton wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Can someone please volunteer to be a jabber scribe and someone  
>> else volunteer to take minutes for the NEMO meeting tomorrow morning?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> TJ
>>
>>
>
>





From mext-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 25 13:13:05 2007
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To: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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Thierry,

Thanks for your comments. Inline:

> The charter is alternatively using Mobile IPv6 / MIP6. I would suggest
> adding the abbreviation the first time it is mentioned: "Mobile IPb6
> (MIP6).
>   

Yes. Needs fixing.

>> continue using its home address as it moves around the Internet,
>> enabling continuity of sessions. Mobile IPv6 supports transparency
>> above the IP layer, including maintenance of active transport level
>> sessions. In addition, NEMO network mobility mechanisms built on top
>> of Mobile IPv6 allow managing the mobility of an entire network, as it
>>     
>
> NEMO + network mobility = pleonasm. Change "NEMO network mobility
> mechanisms" to "Network mobility (NEMO) mechanisms 
>   

Ok.

> I would also remove "built on top of Mobile IPv6" as it would suggest
> there is a dependance between MIPv6 and NEMO, which is not the case.
> Both protocols are based on the same concepts and use the same
> mechanisms.
>   

Now I lost you. Here's what RFC 3963 says in the abstract: "The protocol is
an extension of Mobile IPv6 and ..."

>> o RFC 3775
>> o RFC 3963
>> o RFC 4877
>>     
>
> I would add the title of the RFC, not only the number.

OK.

> What about RFC
> 3776 ? 
>   

Taken over by 4877, or at least that is imho the one that
we should focus on.

> Regarding NEMO, shouldn't we also add somewhere on the charter RFC 4885
> to RFC 4889 as the newbie wouldn't have any hint they exist ? These are
> important informational documents to justify the work being done and
> the direction of the WG (something that is always missing in WG
> charters).
>   

The list is not intended to be exhaustive but point to the main documents.
>
>   
>> The MEXT Working Group continues the work of the MIP6, NEMO, and
>> MONAMI6 Working Groups.
>>     
>
> I would add "former" before MIP6, NEMO & MONANI6 WGs
>   

Ok.

>   
>> Deployment considerations call for (A.1) solutions to enable
>> dual-stack operation, (A.2) mechanisms to support high-availability
>> home agents, (A.3) allowing the use of multiple interfaces in mobile
>> nodes, (A.4) ways to employ Mobile IPv6 in the presence of firewalls,
>>     
>
> Mobile IPv6 => Mobile IPv6/NEMO 
>   

OK.

>> (A.5) address the specific needs of automotive and aviation
>> communities for route optimisation in network mobility, and (A.6)
>> support for AAA is needed as a continuation of earlier work on
>> bootstrapping.
>>
>> Work items related to large scale deployment include:
>>
>> (A.1) A Solution for MIP6 session continuity for dual stack hosts which
>>     
>
> MIP6 session => MIP6/NEMO session 
>   

OK.

>
>   
>>      attach to IPv4 access networks. Additionally provide a mechanism
>>      for carrying IPv4 packets via the Home agent for MIP6 capable
>>      dual-stack hosts.
>>     
>
> MIP6/NEMO capable 
>   

OK...

>   
>> (A.2) A protocol based solution for enhancing the reliability of home
>>      agents and a method to force a host to switch home agents.
>>     
>
> host => host/router
>   

OK.

>   
>>      A mechanism to force an MN to switch the HA that is currently
>>      serving it. This is required in deployments where the HA needs to
>>      be taken offline for maintenance.
>>     
>
>
> No more comments on the remaining text.
>   

Thanks.

Jari


_______________________________________________
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https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext



From mext-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 25 18:30:07 2007
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From: Thierry Ernst <thierry.ernst@inria.fr>
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>> I would also remove "built on top of Mobile IPv6" as it would suggest
>> there is a dependance between MIPv6 and NEMO, which is not the case.
>> Both protocols are based on the same concepts and use the same
>> mechanisms.
>>   
>
>Now I lost you. Here's what RFC 3963 says in the abstract: "The protocol is
>an extension of Mobile IPv6 and ..."

OK, but I wasn't the one who wrote it otherwise this sentence would
have been turned in a different way ;-)

>> What about RFC
>> 3776 ? 
>>   
>
>Taken over by 4877, or at least that is imho the one that
>we should focus on.

OK
>
>> Regarding NEMO, shouldn't we also add somewhere on the charter RFC 4885
>> to RFC 4889 as the newbie wouldn't have any hint they exist ? These are
>> important informational documents to justify the work being done and
>> the direction of the WG (something that is always missing in WG
>> charters).
>>   
>
>The list is not intended to be exhaustive but point to the main documents.

Sure, but RFC 3963 was published long time before the other documents,
so one reading RFC 3963 won't have a clue about the other RFCs if one
haven't follow the history behind MEXT. This is were IETF WG charter
pages are lacking (reference to prior published work when it was not
published but the same group. Since MEXT is new, all the history behind
MIP6 and NEMP WGs will be unknown to the newbie. How to improve this ?

May be one way is to keep the NEMO, MIP6 and MONAMI6 WG chartes for
historical purposes, and have a pointer from the new charter. But this
is something we don't do currently, so I don't expect the MEXT charter
to do it as it would have to be discussed with the IETF secretariat or
whowever.


To conclude, I would like to thank Jari who has done most of the work
of merging the 3 charters into 1. Thanks also for having kicked us up
many times to meet deadlines ;-)

Thierry.


 

_______________________________________________
MEXT mailing list
MEXT@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext



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Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> I can volunteer for this.
Thanks. Anyone else?






From nemo-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 30 17:57:23 2007
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Hi folks,

The NEMO MIB version 3 was submitted on July 9th, and the authors feel 
that it is ready. We are issuing a working group last call that will be 
active for two weeks. Please submit any comments on the document to the 
NEMO mailing list.

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-nemo-mib-03.txt

Thanks,
TJ & Thierry





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