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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : YANG Module for NETCONF Monitoring
	Author(s)       : M. Scott, M. Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-11.txt
	Pages           : 38
	Date            : 2010-02-02

This document defines a NETCONF data model to be used to monitor the
NETCONF protocol.  The monitoring data model includes information
about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks and statistics.  This data
facilitates the management of a NETCONF server.  This document also
defines methods for NETCONF clients to discover data models supported
by a NETCONF server and defines a new NETCONF <get-schema> operation
to retrieve them.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-11.txt

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From andyb@iwl.com  Wed Feb  3 11:03:07 2010
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Subject: [Netconf] netconf-monitoring revision
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Hi,

The revision date and the namespace URI are the same in draft-10 and draft-11.
Please remember to update these fields each time the draft is published.


thanks,
Andy

From mehmet.ersue@nsn.com  Thu Feb  4 02:55:53 2010
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Thread-Topic: NETCONF Monitoring Going to AD Review WAS:FW: [Netconf] I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-11.txt
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=20
Dear NETCONF WG,

we think the new version of the Monitoring draft Mark=20
submitted solves the remaining issues raised on the maillist.=20
We got also positive feedback for this version from key=20
players in the WG.

After having several WGLCs and sufficient discussion on=20
the Monitoring draft the co-chairs think now that version-11=20
of the NETCONF Monitoring draft is ready to go to AD review.

If there are no strong and valid objections by February 12,=20
2010 we are going to start the necessary IETF process to=20
publish this WG item as Proposed Standard.

Mehmet



-----Original Message-----
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Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-11.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group of
the IETF.


	Title           : YANG Module for NETCONF Monitoring
	Author(s)       : M. Scott, M. Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-11.txt
	Pages           : 38
	Date            : 2010-02-02

This document defines a NETCONF data model to be used to monitor the
NETCONF protocol.  The monitoring data model includes information
about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks and statistics.  This data
facilitates the management of a NETCONF server.  This document also
defines methods for NETCONF clients to discover data models supported
by a NETCONF server and defines a new NETCONF <get-schema> operation
to retrieve them.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-11.txt

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
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	Title           : Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)
	Author(s)       : R. Enns, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.txt
	Pages           : 111
	Date            : 2010-02-04

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From bertietf@bwijnen.net  Thu Feb  4 14:06:59 2010
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Subject: [Netconf] PLEASE review: draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.txt
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Dear WG participants,

Could you PLEASE review and comment on this new draft.
We can only make progress if we all stay (get) involved and do the
reviews when a new revision comes out. There are also a set of open
issues remaining I believe. Could the uathors/editors please
post them one by one and describe

- the issue
- a possible solution
- pros/cons

And then WG participants, PLEAS do rect with your  views/comments

Bert and Mehmet
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org=20
  To: i-d-announce@ietf.org=20
  Cc: netconf@ietf.org=20
  Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:15 PM
  Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.txt


  A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
  This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group =
of the IETF.


  Title           : Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)
  Author(s)       : R. Enns, et al.
  Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.txt
  Pages           : 111
  Date            : 2010-02-04

  The Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) defined in this document
  provides mechanisms to install, manipulate, and delete the
  configuration of network devices.  It uses an Extensible Markup
  Language (XML)-based data encoding for the configuration data as well
  as the protocol messages.  The NETCONF protocol operations are
  realized as Remote Procedure Calls (RPC).

  A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.txt

  Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
  ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18882">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear WG participants,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Could you PLEASE review and comment on this new=20
draft.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>We can only make progress if we all stay (get) =
involved and do=20
the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>reviews when a new revision comes out. There are =
also a set of=20
open</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>issues remaining I believe. Could the =
uathors/editors=20
please</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>post them one by one and describe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- the issue</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- a possible solution</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- pros/cons</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And then WG participants, PLEAS do rect with =
your&nbsp;=20
views/comments</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert and Mehmet</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DInternet-Drafts@ietf.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Di-d-announce@ietf.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 04, =
2010 2:15=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Netconf] I-D=20
  Action:draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.txt</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20
  Internet-Drafts directories.<BR>This draft is a work item of the =
Network=20
  Configuration Working Group of the=20
  =
IETF.<BR><BR><BR>Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
  : Network Configuration Protocol=20
  (NETCONF)<BR>Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : R. Enns, =
et=20
  al.<BR>Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :=20
  =
draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.txt<BR>Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  :=20
  =
111<BR>Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
  : 2010-02-04<BR><BR>The Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF) =
defined in=20
  this document<BR>provides mechanisms to install, manipulate, and =
delete=20
  the<BR>configuration of network devices.&nbsp; It uses an Extensible=20
  Markup<BR>Language (XML)-based data encoding for the configuration =
data as=20
  well<BR>as the protocol messages.&nbsp; The NETCONF protocol =
operations=20
  are<BR>realized as Remote Procedure Calls (RPC).<BR><BR>A URL for this =

  Internet-Draft is:<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02=
.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-02.t=
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From mrw@sandstorm.net  Thu Feb  4 14:08:44 2010
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Hi All,

As the editor of this document, I am not aware of _any_ comments  
(positive or negative) on the latest version.

Has anyone reviewed the updates?  Any thoughts, good or bad?  If you  
have any comments, please send them to the list within the next week,  
so that there will be time to update the document again before the  
meeting in Anaheim.

Chairs, if no one has any review comments on this document, perhaps it  
is ready for WG Last Call?

Margaret


On Jan 8, 2010, at 3:27 AM, Bert (IETF) Wijnen wrote:

> WG participants,
>
> pls review and comment on this initial version. Sooner is better  
> than later.
>
> We as WG chairs will work with Dan to update our milestones as  
> agreed at the last
> ietf (and confirmed n the mlist).
>
> Bert
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: 	[Netconf] I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-rfc4742bis-00.txt
> Date: 	Thu, 7 Jan 2010 16:45:01 -0800 (PST)
> From: 	Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> To: 	i-d-announce@ietf.org
> CC: 	netconf@ietf.org
>
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group  
> of the IETF.
>
>
> 	Title           : Using the NETCONF Configuration Protocol over  
> Secure Shell (SSH)
> 	Author(s)       : M. Wasserman, T. Goddard
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-rfc4742bis-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 10
> 	Date            : 2009-12-28
>
> This document describes a method for invoking and running the NETCONF
> protocol within a Secure Shell (SSH) session as an SSH subsystem.
>
> Status of this Memo
>
> This Internet-Draft is submitted to IETF in full conformance with the
> provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.
>
> Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
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>
> This Internet-Draft will expire on July 1, 2010.
>
> Copyright Notice
>
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From mark.scott@ericsson.com  Wed Feb 10 13:07:15 2010
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From: Mark Scott <mark.scott@ericsson.com>
To: "andyb@iwl.com" <andyb@iwl.com>, NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:08:23 -0500
Thread-Topic: [Netconf] netconf-monitoring revision
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I will update these after the WGLC completes (this Friday) and before the A=
D review.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Andy Bierman
Sent: February-03-10 1:58 PM
To: NETCONF
Subject: [Netconf] netconf-monitoring revision

Hi,

The revision date and the namespace URI are the same in draft-10 and draft-=
11.
Please remember to update these fields each time the draft is published.


thanks,
Andy
_______________________________________________
Netconf mailing list
Netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf

From andyb@iwl.com  Wed Feb 10 14:03:41 2010
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Mark Scott wrote:
> I will update these after the WGLC completes (this Friday) and before the AD review.
> 

OK.

I guess there was no interest in adding a capabilities-last-change-time
object at this time.  SNMP experience has shown that these timestamps
are useful to client applications that poll the server to maintain a current
view of potentially large monitoring tables.

IMO, this is a practical, low-cost partial solution to the
'dynamic capabilities' problem.


> Mark

Andy

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andy Bierman
> Sent: February-03-10 1:58 PM
> To: NETCONF
> Subject: [Netconf] netconf-monitoring revision
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The revision date and the namespace URI are the same in draft-10 and draft-11.
> Please remember to update these fields each time the draft is published.
> 
> 
> thanks,
> Andy
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 


From andyb@iwl.com  Fri Feb 12 15:32:29 2010
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Subject: [Netconf] 4741bis: boot without loading running  from startup
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Hi,

This may just be an implementation detail, but maybe not...

If a server allows the operator to skip the load NV-stored config
step, and therefore force the running config to contain factory default
settings, and if the :startup capability is not advertised...
then when is the server required to keep the NV-storage in synch
with the running config?

IMO, the server should wait until the operator actually
changes the running config before saving the NV-store version
in this case.

There is 1 relevant sentence in 4741bis, 8.7.1:

   Operations that affect the running configuration will not
   be automatically copied to the startup configuration.

This says that without :startup, the server will automatically
copy to NV-storage *when* an operation that affects the running
config is invoked.



Andy

From andyb@iwl.com  Fri Feb 12 18:20:31 2010
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Hi,

I am trying to understand how all the NETCONF operations
behave in the presence of an access control model,
and I don't think copy-config and nc:operation="replace"
do the right thing, according to the current text.

Consider an operation like backup and restore:

1)
  $backup = get-config(source=running)

2)
  copy-config(source=$backup, target=running)

OR
  edit-config(source=$backup, target=running, default-operation=replace)


One would think this is a 'NO-OP' operation, but what
if $backup contains config data that the user is not authorized
to view?   The ACM will silently skip such child nodes
when generating the get-config reply.

When the same user replaces the entire config,
it is not the same as the original.  According
to rules for replace and copy-config, nodes
missing in source will be deleted in target.

Since this user is not authorized to delete the nodes
it wasn't allowed to view, the copy-config and replace
operation should fail will an access-denied error.

Is this a feature, a bug, or vendor-specific?
IMO, it is not clear that default-operation
can ever be 'replace' unless the user has access
to the entire database.

It is not clear that copy-config should be so fragile either.

It is also a security hole to require non-authorized users
to know the exact database nodes they are not authorized to
know about.

(Oh no! Is he trying to get us to discuss access control
requirements on the mailing list?! :-)


Andy


From johan.rydberg@edgeware.tv  Sat Feb 13 00:29:39 2010
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
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On 2/13/10 3:21 AM, Andy Bierman wrote:
> When the same user replaces the entire config,
> it is not the same as the original.  According
> to rules for replace and copy-config, nodes
> missing in source will be deleted in target.
>    
I can't say what's right or wrong, just tell you how we do it;

Our implementation starts out with doing a copy of the source
dataset.  It then copies the nodes from the target dataset to the
intermediate dataset that the session has not access to read.

We only have access-control on top-level containers.



From andyb@iwl.com  Sat Feb 13 04:03:05 2010
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Cc: NETCONF <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
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Johan Rydberg wrote:
> On 2/13/10 3:21 AM, Andy Bierman wrote:
>> When the same user replaces the entire config,
>> it is not the same as the original.  According
>> to rules for replace and copy-config, nodes
>> missing in source will be deleted in target.
>>    
> I can't say what's right or wrong, just tell you how we do it;
> 
> Our implementation starts out with doing a copy of the source
> dataset.  It then copies the nodes from the target dataset to the
> intermediate dataset that the session has not access to read.
> 

Agreed.

But this is clearly in violation of the standard.
In a replace operation, any nodes deleted from the source
are supposed to be deleted from the target.
This is not how any real systems actually work,
just how the standard is written.

> We only have access-control on top-level containers.
> 

This isn't very robust.
IMO, the standard needs an ACM which
will allow any node (and all its descendants)
to be isolated.

However, the write access needs to work the same
way as read access for 'wildcard' or 'implied' access.
When I ask for access to /foo/*, I am implicitly
asking for only the child nodes of /foo I am authorized to use,
so child node expansion is post-access-control.



Andy

From andyb@iwl.com  Mon Feb 15 08:46:12 2010
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Hi,

I understand that the NETMOD WG thinks it is important
to treat leafs with the YANG default value as if they
MUST NOT exist.  IMO, this should be a vendor choice,
but oh well.

I think the 4741bis draft needs to explain how the
create and delete operation is applied to leafs
containing the schema default value.


   leaf foo {
      type int32;
      default 42;
   }

It is not clear to me when a create operation
on the /foo leaf is expected to succeed and when
it expected to fail with a 'data-exists' error.

   - will it succeed if the server set this to 42?
     we know it will fail if a client already set it to 42.

What about the same question for a delete operation?
Does the server choose based on its 'basic' mode
of the with-defaults capability?  What if this
capability is not supported?  What if the behavior
is not the same for every object in the database?

If I have a module that was defined in SMIv2, XSD, RNG, or
some other DML, then it seems I cannot reliably convert
a default in that data model to YANG default-stmt.
It seems advertising the YANG version instead of the XSD
version will have an impact on NETCONF protocol operations.


Andy



From wjhns1@hardakers.net  Tue Feb 16 10:56:16 2010
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>>>>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:21:49 -0800, Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com> said:

AB> It is not clear that copy-config should be so fragile either.

AB> It is also a security hole to require non-authorized users
AB> to know the exact database nodes they are not authorized to
AB> know about.

For a long time I've tried to describe the problems associated with
combining large bulk operations (copy-config) and small ones
(edit-config) when combined with things like access control and
locking.  Thanks for finding another example problem!

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Cobham Analytic Solutions

From andyb@iwl.com  Tue Feb 16 11:07:16 2010
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:21:49 -0800, Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com> said:
> 
> AB> It is not clear that copy-config should be so fragile either.
> 
> AB> It is also a security hole to require non-authorized users
> AB> to know the exact database nodes they are not authorized to
> AB> know about.
> 
> For a long time I've tried to describe the problems associated with
> combining large bulk operations (copy-config) and small ones
> (edit-config) when combined with things like access control and
> locking.  Thanks for finding another example problem!
> 

I am starting to think that there are some
corner cases where you need a 'root' class of
user with access to everything.  I think the
current NETCONF behavior could be considered OK if this
more restrictive POV was taken.

IMO, the Apache 'virtual host' kind of approach is better,
in order to let the user pretend that a
copy-config or commit is affecting the entire database,
when it is actually just the authorized subset.

BTW, if the NETCONF WG ever starts an access control
model, you might be obliged to help document these
problems! ;-)


Andy

From wjhns1@hardakers.net  Tue Feb 16 15:00:50 2010
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>>>>> On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:09:10 -0800, Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com> said:

AB> I am starting to think that there are some
AB> corner cases where you need a 'root' class of
AB> user with access to everything.  I think the
AB> current NETCONF behavior could be considered OK if this
AB> more restrictive POV was taken.

The other thing I've been saying for a long time both inside and outside
the IETF: "netconf is a great looking protocol, but it's designed for
all-or-nothing access".  IE, it works great if everyone is root.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Cobham Analytic Solutions

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From: Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com>
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:09:10 -0800, Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com> said:
> 
> AB> I am starting to think that there are some
> AB> corner cases where you need a 'root' class of
> AB> user with access to everything.  I think the
> AB> current NETCONF behavior could be considered OK if this
> AB> more restrictive POV was taken.
> 
> The other thing I've been saying for a long time both inside and outside
> the IETF: "netconf is a great looking protocol, but it's designed for
> all-or-nothing access".  IE, it works great if everyone is root.

It is designed so that access control is proprietary
until it is standardized in the future.  Every development cycle,
I (and others) suggest we work on standard access control.
But 5 times in a row, the WG has decided that other things should be
standardized first.



Andy

From mehmet.ersue@nsn.com  Thu Feb 18 01:28:41 2010
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Thread-Topic: Access Control discussion in Anaheim WAS:RE: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
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Hi Andy and Wes,

Thanks for bringing up (again) the issues of acces control.

We as WG-chairs believe that the best way forward is to have an initial
draft that describes some the things/problems you talk about. Sort of a
"problem statement" if you like. It would also be good if the draft
hints=20
at some direction and/or possible solutions.

Then, if you could prepare some slides for the next IETF meeting, that
would allows us to hopefully have a fruitfull discussion.

It is not that we do not want access control on our charter. It is just=20
that we would like to have some understanding of how we can tackle it,=20
so that we can try to estimate:
- what we must/can deliver
- when we can deliver it
- what is in and what is out of scope.

Without some people putting in an initial effort to get things
documented=20
in an Internet Draft, it seems that we just rehash some issues that only

a very small set of people understand.

Bert and Mehmet

From wjhns1@hardakers.net  Fri Feb 19 09:21:40 2010
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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
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>>>>> On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:43:40 -0800, Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com> said:

>> The other thing I've been saying for a long time both inside and outside
>> the IETF: "netconf is a great looking protocol, but it's designed for
>> all-or-nothing access".  IE, it works great if everyone is root.

AB> It is designed so that access control is proprietary
AB> until it is standardized in the future.

No, you missed the point: access control will be difficult at best to
get right considering the nature of the protocol operations.  You're
seeing some of the issues now as you've just pointed out some of the
difficulties in getting it right or even workable.  The protocol,
intentionally or not, is designed to trust the operators.  As you've
just shown in another example, copy-config and edit-config are dangerous
command to give to someone that doesn't have global root-level access to
everything.  It's inherit in the protocol.  It's not, necessarily, a bad
thing unless you *want* to do role-based access control.  Many
claim that role-based access control isn't used in the wild and we
shouldn't worry about it anyway because 99% of the use case is "everyone
with access is already root".  Though I agree that's true for many
enterprises, I've definitely seen (many) cases where it isn't true.

-- 
Wes Hardaker
Cobham Analytic Solutions

From andyb@iwl.com  Fri Feb 19 09:42:14 2010
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Wes Hardaker wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:43:40 -0800, Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com> said:
> 
>>> The other thing I've been saying for a long time both inside and outside
>>> the IETF: "netconf is a great looking protocol, but it's designed for
>>> all-or-nothing access".  IE, it works great if everyone is root.
> 
> AB> It is designed so that access control is proprietary
> AB> until it is standardized in the future.
> 
> No, you missed the point: access control will be difficult at best to
> get right considering the nature of the protocol operations.  You're
> seeing some of the issues now as you've just pointed out some of the
> difficulties in getting it right or even workable.  The protocol,
> intentionally or not, is designed to trust the operators.  As you've
> just shown in another example, copy-config and edit-config are dangerous
> command to give to someone that doesn't have global root-level access to
> everything.  It's inherit in the protocol.  It's not, necessarily, a bad
> thing unless you *want* to do role-based access control.  Many
> claim that role-based access control isn't used in the wild and we
> shouldn't worry about it anyway because 99% of the use case is "everyone
> with access is already root".  Though I agree that's true for many
> enterprises, I've definitely seen (many) cases where it isn't true.
> 

The NETCONF protocol is still a work in progress.
SNMP was published in August 1988.
There wasn't any access control published
(VACM) until January 1998.

By then, everyone was using a 'public' and 'private'
community strings (sometimes with those exact values!).
Operators wanted to partition read-only and read-write access.
That much of SNMP access control was used.

I disagree that it is too late to add access control to NETCONF.
It is not too late to learn that VACM was an over-engineered
disaster and a simpler approach is needed for NETCONF.
It may not be bullet-proof (e.g., poorly documented vendor RPC
changes some underlying config nodes), but it will be a whole
lot better than nothing.


Andy

From phil@juniper.net  Fri Feb 19 10:22:55 2010
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Andy Bierman writes:
>There wasn't any access control published
>(VACM) until January 1998.

Sure but when will useful[1] access control for SNMP be available? ;^)

Sorry, couldn't resist, but in trying to solve a single problem in
an exhaustive way, VACM makes something that no one wants.  I hope
we can do better for NETCONF.  Perhaps you would be well served to
start with the 10 biggest ACM-related problem scenarios you want
to solve and work forward from there.

Thanks,
 Phil

1: Feel free to replace "useful" with "real-world", "useable",
or "widely deployed".

From andyb@iwl.com  Fri Feb 19 11:15:54 2010
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> Andy Bierman writes:
>> There wasn't any access control published
>> (VACM) until January 1998.
> 
> Sure but when will useful[1] access control for SNMP be available? ;^)
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist, but in trying to solve a single problem in
> an exhaustive way, VACM makes something that no one wants.  I hope
> we can do better for NETCONF.  Perhaps you would be well served to
> start with the 10 biggest ACM-related problem scenarios you want
> to solve and work forward from there.
> 

I just pointed out a 10 year time span between
publication dates.  It is well understood that
VACM is not widely deployed.

The most common form of SNMP access control several
years ago was to simply disable the 'write' community string
with the CLI.  There isn't much need to partition
the read-only data into different access levels.

We should learn from VACM and move on.


> Thanks,
>  Phil


Andy

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Andy Bierman writes:
>We should learn from VACM and move on.

IMHO we should learn this isn't a problem we will solve in the next
little while and our efforts will be better spent on other issues
where we can bear fruit that people will need and use.

Thanks,
 Phil

From andyb@iwl.com  Fri Feb 19 11:35:27 2010
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> Andy Bierman writes:
>> We should learn from VACM and move on.
> 
> IMHO we should learn this isn't a problem we will solve in the next
> little while and our efforts will be better spent on other issues
> where we can bear fruit that people will need and use.
> 

If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.

IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in NETCONF standard.


> Thanks,
>  Phil
> 

Andy

From j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de  Fri Feb 19 12:04:37 2010
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:02:24AM +0100, Wes Hardaker wrote:
 
> The other thing I've been saying for a long time both inside and outside
> the IETF: "netconf is a great looking protocol, but it's designed for
> all-or-nothing access".  IE, it works great if everyone is root.

I do not see it that way. This is similar to a backup of a Unix system
- if you want a full backup, you better have full access to the
filesystem in question. Still, if you are an ordinary user of a Unix
box, it is still meaningful to do a backup of your home directory and
it is also meaningful to restore it. And yes, you would not expect any
other parts to be included in the backup and you would not expect
other parts you do not have access to to change. Can there be odd
cases? Sure, depends to a large extend how you organize the data; if
the logical unit of work is in a subtree, things get simpler. This is
why having a home directory is a perfectly reasonable file system
organization for most users.

In other words, I believe a meaningful solution can be engineered,
even if it might assume some reasonable organization of the config.
(Even VACM assumes or sometimes requires a meaningful organization,
so this is not even something new.)

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1, 28759 Bremen, Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

From bertietf@bwijnen.net  Fri Feb 19 14:59:10 2010
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I have learned from VACM two things:

- We should not over-engineer. We did that with VACM. Nodbody uses/wants =
it,
  It was mainly a theorethical exercise.
- Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way (like just read and =
write acces),
  it is not being used in a simple way... mostly (I think) because we =
overengineered it and
  so it looks/feels compliated to do even the simple thing.

my 2 cents,
Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andy Bierman=20
  To: Phil Shafer=20
  Cc: NETCONF=20
  Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation


  Phil Shafer wrote:
  > Andy Bierman writes:
  >> We should learn from VACM and move on.
  >=20
  > IMHO we should learn this isn't a problem we will solve in the next
  > little while and our efforts will be better spent on other issues
  > where we can bear fruit that people will need and use.
  >=20

  If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
  then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
  Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
  Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.

  IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in NETCONF =
standard.


  > Thanks,
  >  Phil
  >=20

  Andy
  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----



  Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
  Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com=20
  Versie: 9.0.733 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2697 - datum van uitgifte: =
02/19/10 08:34:00

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have learned from VACM two things:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- We should not over-engineer. We did that with =
VACM. Nodbody=20
uses/wants it,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; It was mainly a theorethical =
exercise.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way =
(like just=20
read and write acces),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; it is not being used in a simple way... =
mostly (I=20
think) because we overengineered it and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; so it looks/feels compliated to do even the =
simple=20
thing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>my 2 cents,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dandyb@iwl.com href=3D"mailto:andyb@iwl.com">Andy =
Bierman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dphil@juniper.net =

  href=3D"mailto:phil@juniper.net">Phil Shafer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">NETCONF</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 19, 2010 =
8:37=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] NETCONF =
replace=20
  operation</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Phil Shafer wrote:<BR>&gt; Andy Bierman =
writes:<BR>&gt;&gt; We=20
  should learn from VACM and move on.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; IMHO we should =
learn this=20
  isn't a problem we will solve in the next<BR>&gt; little while and our =
efforts=20
  will be better spent on other issues<BR>&gt; where we can bear fruit =
that=20
  people will need and use.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>If NETCONF is going to be a =
real=20
  replacement/supplement to CLI<BR>then it needs at least some of the =
ACM=20
  features used in CLI.<BR>Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI =
access=20
  control.<BR>Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and =
everybody=20
  else.<BR><BR>IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in =
NETCONF=20
  standard.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Thanks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Phil<BR>&gt;=20
  =
<BR><BR>Andy<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netcon=
f=20
  mailing list<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR>
  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P><BR>Geen virus gevonden in het =
binnenkomende-bericht.<BR>Gecontroleerd=20
  door AVG - <A href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A> <BR>Versie: =
9.0.733 /=20
  Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2697 - datum van uitgifte: 02/19/10=20
08:34:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_21DE_01CAB1BF.B6F28F20--


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Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
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Hi -

I think the "overengineered" aspects of VACM really have nothing at all
to do with formulating access control policy, but were instead thought
(at least by their proponents) to be ways to make things "easier" or
"more efficient" for particular uses cases.  But they just get in the
way of understanding the normal cases.  Two specific examples:
  - "prefix matching" for contexts
  - the vacmViewTreeFamilyMask

Both of these can dramatically reduce the number of entries needed
for complex policies, and the size of policies was a big concern when
VACM was developed.  The flip side is that these two features both
make the MIB harder to understand, and require substantial intelligence
on the part of the security administrator application to put to optimal
use.  Configuring these by hand is madness, but that appears to be
what at least some folks still try to do.

The lesson, I think, is that NETCONF should be explicit in its expectations
regarding how access control policy configurations will be created and
administered.

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bert Wijnen (IETF)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net>
To: "Phil Shafer" <phil@juniper.net>; "Andy Bierman" <andyb@iwl.com>
Cc: "NETCONF" <netconf@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation


I have learned from VACM two things:

- We should not over-engineer. We did that with VACM. Nodbody uses/wants it,
  It was mainly a theorethical exercise.
- Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way (like just read and write acces),
  it is not being used in a simple way... mostly (I think) because we overengineered it and
  so it looks/feels compliated to do even the simple thing.

my 2 cents,
Bert
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andy Bierman 
  To: Phil Shafer 
  Cc: NETCONF 
  Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation


  Phil Shafer wrote:
  > Andy Bierman writes:
  >> We should learn from VACM and move on.
  > 
  > IMHO we should learn this isn't a problem we will solve in the next
  > little while and our efforts will be better spent on other issues
  > where we can bear fruit that people will need and use.
  > 

  If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
  then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
  Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
  Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.

  IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in NETCONF standard.


  > Thanks,
  >  Phil
  > 

  Andy
  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf



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From phil@juniper.net  Sat Feb 20 07:34:27 2010
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Andy Bierman writes:
>If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
>then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
>Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
>Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.

Given that:

(a) operators want something simple
(b) operators already use the CLI
(c) operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control
(d) operators have their ACM model already set up for the CLI users

the simplest path would be for the on-box NETCONF ACM to mirror the
CLI ACM mechanism.  If you can't touch a config knob via the CLI,
you can't touch it via the API.  If you can't see a config knob in
the CLI, you can't see it in the API.  The operator wants a single
cohesive ACM model for the entire box, not one for the CLI and one
for the API.

If my RANCID login needs read access to the full config, then my
application that performs backups can use this same login without
the operator even needing to understand a different ACM model.

This is my view and the way the XML API in JUNOS has always worked.
This gives operators a level of comfort in using the API, knowing
they are not opening anything that isn't already accessible.

Regardless of how simple a model you think you can build, reusing
what's already there (understood, configured, deployed, working)
makes more sense.  This is the same reasoning that led us to use
ssh instead of rolling our own login mechanism.  ssh (keys, agents,
etc) are already in use, so we couldn't have made anything simpler.

If you see the need for a new ACM model for NETCONF, please feel
free to write a draft with specific ideas.  Until we have something
concrete to discuss, can we please lay this topic to rest (one more
time)?

Thanks,
 Phil

From phil@juniper.net  Sat Feb 20 07:43:27 2010
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To: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
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Wes Hardaker writes:
>As you've
>just shown in another example, copy-config and edit-config are dangerous
>command to give to someone that doesn't have global root-level access to
>everything.  It's inherit in the protocol.

I can't disagree more.  "edit-config" is no more dangerous than
"load" in the CLI.  If the user isn't allowed to delete something
and attempts to, it's an error.  If you want to backup the full
config, then you need to give your user access to the full config.
If you arrange to only backup part of the config, then you'll only
restore that part of the config.  This is not dangerous or an error
in protocol design.

Thanks,
 Phil

From andyb@iwl.com  Sat Feb 20 07:46:38 2010
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Phil Shafer wrote:
> Andy Bierman writes:
>> If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
>> then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
>> Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
>> Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.
> 
> Given that:
> 
> (a) operators want something simple
> (b) operators already use the CLI
> (c) operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control
> (d) operators have their ACM model already set up for the CLI users
> 
> the simplest path would be for the on-box NETCONF ACM to mirror the
> CLI ACM mechanism.  If you can't touch a config knob via the CLI,
> you can't touch it via the API.  If you can't see a config knob in
> the CLI, you can't see it in the API.  The operator wants a single
> cohesive ACM model for the entire box, not one for the CLI and one
> for the API.
> 
> If my RANCID login needs read access to the full config, then my
> application that performs backups can use this same login without
> the operator even needing to understand a different ACM model.
> 
> This is my view and the way the XML API in JUNOS has always worked.
> This gives operators a level of comfort in using the API, knowing
> they are not opening anything that isn't already accessible.
> 
> Regardless of how simple a model you think you can build, reusing
> what's already there (understood, configured, deployed, working)
> makes more sense.  This is the same reasoning that led us to use
> ssh instead of rolling our own login mechanism.  ssh (keys, agents,
> etc) are already in use, so we couldn't have made anything simpler.
> 
> If you see the need for a new ACM model for NETCONF, please feel
> free to write a draft with specific ideas.  Until we have something
> concrete to discuss, can we please lay this topic to rest (one more
> time)?
> 

This applies to any and every new work item, right?
IMO, we should be using the mailing list (like
we are right now) to discuss access control requirements.
You say we have other more important work to do.
Where are the drafts?  What work are you talking about?


IMO, Wes is mostly correct -- the NETCONF standard
has all-or-nothing access, and this is not suitable for
all systems. It's kind of like the IPFIX vendors who
want to run over UDP and do not care that the IETF wants
a more congestion-friendly transport for IPFIX.


> Thanks,
>  Phil
> 

Andy


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I have learned from VACM two things:

- We should not over-engineer. We did that with VACM. Nodbody uses/wants =
it,
  It was mainly a theorethical exercise.
- Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way (like just read and =
write acces),
  it is not being used in a simple way... mostly (I think) because we =
overengineered it and
  so it looks/feels compliated to do even the simple thing.

my 2 cents,
Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andy Bierman=20
  To: Phil Shafer=20
  Cc: NETCONF=20
  Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation


  Phil Shafer wrote:
  > Andy Bierman writes:
  >> We should learn from VACM and move on.
  >=20
  > IMHO we should learn this isn't a problem we will solve in the next
  > little while and our efforts will be better spent on other issues
  > where we can bear fruit that people will need and use.
  >=20

  If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
  then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
  Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
  Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.

  IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in NETCONF =
standard.


  > Thanks,
  >  Phil
  >=20

  Andy
  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----



  Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
  Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com=20
  Versie: 9.0.733 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2697 - datum van uitgifte: =
02/19/10 08:34:00

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18882">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have learned from VACM two things:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- We should not over-engineer. We did that with =
VACM. Nodbody=20
uses/wants it,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; It was mainly a theorethical =
exercise.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way =
(like just=20
read and write acces),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; it is not being used in a simple way... =
mostly (I=20
think) because we overengineered it and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; so it looks/feels compliated to do even the =
simple=20
thing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>my 2 cents,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dandyb@iwl.com href=3D"mailto:andyb@iwl.com">Andy =
Bierman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dphil@juniper.net =

  href=3D"mailto:phil@juniper.net">Phil Shafer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">NETCONF</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 19, 2010 =
8:37=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] NETCONF =
replace=20
  operation</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Phil Shafer wrote:<BR>&gt; Andy Bierman =
writes:<BR>&gt;&gt; We=20
  should learn from VACM and move on.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; IMHO we should =
learn this=20
  isn't a problem we will solve in the next<BR>&gt; little while and our =
efforts=20
  will be better spent on other issues<BR>&gt; where we can bear fruit =
that=20
  people will need and use.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>If NETCONF is going to be a =
real=20
  replacement/supplement to CLI<BR>then it needs at least some of the =
ACM=20
  features used in CLI.<BR>Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI =
access=20
  control.<BR>Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and =
everybody=20
  else.<BR><BR>IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in =
NETCONF=20
  standard.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Thanks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Phil<BR>&gt;=20
  =
<BR><BR>Andy<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netcon=
f=20
  mailing list<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR>
  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P><BR>Geen virus gevonden in het =
binnenkomende-bericht.<BR>Gecontroleerd=20
  door AVG - <A href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A> <BR>Versie: =
9.0.733 /=20
  Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2697 - datum van uitgifte: 02/19/10=20
08:34:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From dromasca@avaya.com  Sun Feb 21 01:56:36 2010
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Thread-Topic: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, "NETCONF" <netconf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
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I agree with Randy and Bert. I would add that the principal problem with
VACM was that the document or documents that describe it did not make a
good enough job in explaining how VACM is to be used in the simpler and
most common use cases, and what the complexity added for the special
cases brings and why it is special. I hope that we can learn and avoid
such mistakes with NETCONF access control.=20

Dan
(speaking as contributor)

=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 2:42 AM
> To: NETCONF
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
>=20
> Hi -
>=20
> I think the "overengineered" aspects of VACM really have=20
> nothing at all to do with formulating access control policy,=20
> but were instead thought (at least by their proponents) to be=20
> ways to make things "easier" or "more efficient" for=20
> particular uses cases.  But they just get in the way of=20
> understanding the normal cases.  Two specific examples:
>   - "prefix matching" for contexts
>   - the vacmViewTreeFamilyMask
>=20
> Both of these can dramatically reduce the number of entries=20
> needed for complex policies, and the size of policies was a=20
> big concern when VACM was developed.  The flip side is that=20
> these two features both make the MIB harder to understand,=20
> and require substantial intelligence on the part of the=20
> security administrator application to put to optimal use. =20
> Configuring these by hand is madness, but that appears to be=20
> what at least some folks still try to do.
>=20
> The lesson, I think, is that NETCONF should be explicit in=20
> its expectations regarding how access control policy=20
> configurations will be created and administered.
>=20
> Randy
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bert Wijnen (IETF)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net>
> To: "Phil Shafer" <phil@juniper.net>; "Andy Bierman" <andyb@iwl.com>
> Cc: "NETCONF" <netconf@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
>=20
>=20
> I have learned from VACM two things:
>=20
> - We should not over-engineer. We did that with VACM. Nodbody=20
> uses/wants it,
>   It was mainly a theorethical exercise.
> - Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way (like=20
> just read and write acces),
>   it is not being used in a simple way... mostly (I think)=20
> because we overengineered it and
>   so it looks/feels compliated to do even the simple thing.
>=20
> my 2 cents,
> Bert
>   ----- Original Message -----=20
>   From: Andy Bierman=20
>   To: Phil Shafer=20
>   Cc: NETCONF=20
>   Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:37 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
>=20
>=20
>   Phil Shafer wrote:
>   > Andy Bierman writes:
>   >> We should learn from VACM and move on.
>   >=20
>   > IMHO we should learn this isn't a problem we will solve=20
> in the next
>   > little while and our efforts will be better spent on other issues
>   > where we can bear fruit that people will need and use.
>   >=20
>=20
>   If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
>   then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
>   Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
>   Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.
>=20
>   IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in=20
> NETCONF standard.
>=20
>=20
>   > Thanks,
>   >  Phil
>   >=20
>=20
>   Andy
>   _______________________________________________
>   Netconf mailing list
>   Netconf@ietf.org
>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
>=20
>=20
>=20
>   Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
>   Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com=20
>   Versie: 9.0.733 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2697 - datum van=20
> uitgifte: 02/19/10 08:34:00
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
>=20
>=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > Netconf mailing list
> > Netconf@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>=20

From mehmet.ersue@nsn.com  Sun Feb 21 06:35:28 2010
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From: "Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)" <mehmet.ersue@nsn.com>
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Subject: [Netconf] Entry for Netconf in IetfOperations
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Hi All,

I think we should discuss shortly before we change=20
the entry for NETCONF on IetfOutcomes page
(at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/misc/outcomes/wiki/IetfOperations).=20
Any opinions?

Mehmet


IETF Origin: No	=09

Years to Develop: 3 years (from 2003) =20

Date Issued: December 2006  =20

Adoption: 0  (outcome still pending)

Target Segment: operators, NMS vendors,
configuration management

RFCs:	4741-4744, 5277, 5539, 5717=09

Comments: based on JunoScript,
use of YANG as modeling language

From andyb@iwl.com  Sun Feb 21 07:47:05 2010
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Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I think we should discuss shortly before we change 
> the entry for NETCONF on IetfOutcomes page
> (at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/misc/outcomes/wiki/IetfOperations). 
> Any opinions?
> 

looks good to me; 0 == outcome still pending.

For those people looking for an almost meaningless
summary of work they know nothing about, it is just fine.


> Mehmet

Andy


> 
> IETF Origin: No		
> 
> Years to Develop: 3 years (from 2003)  
> 
> Date Issued: December 2006   
> 
> Adoption: 0  (outcome still pending)
> 
> Target Segment: operators, NMS vendors,
> configuration management
> 
> RFCs:	4741-4744, 5277, 5539, 5717	
> 
> Comments: based on JunoScript,
> use of YANG as modeling language
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 


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On 2010-02-21 15:37 PM, Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich) wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I think we should discuss shortly before we change
> the entry for NETCONF on IetfOutcomes page
> (at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/misc/outcomes/wiki/IetfOperations).
> Any opinions?
>
> Mehmet
>
>
> IETF Origin: No		
>
> Years to Develop: 3 years (from 2003)
>
> Date Issued: December 2006
>
> Adoption: 0  (outcome still pending)

  Are there any guiding criteria for "gained significant usefulness"?

> Target Segment: operators, NMS vendors,
> configuration management

  And "network equipment providers".

> RFCs:	4741-4744, 5277, 5539, 5717	
>
> Comments: based on JunoScript,
> use of YANG as modeling language
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From wjhns1@hardakers.net  Mon Feb 22 07:09:36 2010
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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
To: andyb@iwl.com
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Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:11:33 -0800
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>>>>> On Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:44:47 -0800, Andy Bierman <andyb@iwl.com> said:

AB> I disagree that it is too late to add access control to NETCONF.

You seem to be in the habit of reading a lot of things from the
statements I make.  Maybe I'm not projecting my thoughts well.  I
suspect, however, that defining access control may require protocol
modifications.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Cobham Analytic Solutions

From wjhns1@hardakers.net  Mon Feb 22 07:17:42 2010
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From: Wes Hardaker <wjhns1@hardakers.net>
To: "Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net>
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>>>>> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:00:29 +0100, "Bert Wijnen (IETF)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net> said:

BW> - We should not over-engineer. We did that with VACM. Nodbody uses/wants it,
BW> It was mainly a theorethical exercise.

Well, I'm not about to say that I've been happy with how the VACM is
defined, needs-to-be-implemented or needs-to-be-used.  I actually
started designing a different ACM years ago that I thought would better
meet the needs of what I found people wanted to do.

However, I will say that the comments surrounding "it has been deployed
or isn't being used" aren't anywhere near correct.  Based on the user
population I deal with, it's being used very very heavily.  And many do
use exclusion/inclusion trees to get what they want.  That being said,
they're often very confused when they start and that's definitely a problem.
-- 
Wes Hardaker
Cobham Analytic Solutions

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon Feb 22 13:33:54 2010
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Subject: [Netconf] Fw: Announcing Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 (March, 2010, Anaheim, CA)
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Hi -

Does anyone think that Netconf would find use in this, or is
the thinking still that Netconf's usage would be limited to
routers, bridges, and the like?

If the NIST definition is correct, then the supporting  access
control model(s) would need to be rather expressive.

Randy

> From: "Dave CROCKER" <dhc2@dcrocker.net>
> To: "Melinda Shore" <shore@arsc.edu>
> Cc: <clouds@ietf.org>; "David Chadwick" <d.w.chadwick@kent.ac.uk>; <ietf@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Announcing Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 (March, 2010, Anaheim,CA)
> 
> 
> On 2/22/2010 12:59 PM, Melinda Shore wrote:
> > On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> >> My thought exactly. The distinction between cloud computing and open grid
> >> computing is very small (or possibly zero)
> >
> > With all due respect, Brian, it's really not. With cloud
> > computing you're typically dealing with multitenanting issues
> > and a bunch of other layer 8-9 stuff that tends (of necessity)
> > to be reflected down the stack, and I think I can see an
> > argument for cloud computing belonging in the RAI space,
> > or at least having substantial overlap.
> 
> 
> Having recently gone through the exercise of trying to understand what these 
> different terms actually meant, I discovered that the underlying problem is that 
> you are both right, as are a variety of other people who have other views...
> 
> As already noted, the term 'cloud' is now used in many different ways, including 
> as a synonym for 'network' and for 'Internet', even amongst technical folk. 
> (Really.)
> 
> There are some people who have very specific and nuanced technical definitions, 
> including distinguishing cloud from grid.  But no set of definitions seems to 
> have a broad base of support.
> 
> For defining 'cloud', one group I'm participating in decided it was happy with 
> the NIST language:
> 
>     <http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SNS/cloud-computing/cloud-def-v15.doc>
...


From andyb@iwl.com  Mon Feb 22 19:43:57 2010
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Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
> 
> Does anyone think that Netconf would find use in this, or is
> the thinking still that Netconf's usage would be limited to
> routers, bridges, and the like?
> 

I'll bite -- and recycle some electrons...

When I first brought up the idea that unix .conf files might
be applicable to NETCONF, I was laughed out of
the room.  We didn't have YANG then.

The real issue isn't NETCONF, but rather NETCONF/YANG.

Any idiot can design an XML protocol to ask a structured
question and get a structured response.  The interesting
question is "Do you have an expressive schema language
for all possible content that allows the protocol work
to be automated, and all configuration files to be validated off-line?"

That extra layer of abstraction -- the use
of any formal data modeling language at all,
seems to be the part that is completely lacking
in most 1-off solutions.

The favored design seems to be to use an example
configuration file with comments in it instead.
There is only 1 protocol operation to consider (load config).

At some point in the future, when YANG is finally published,
NETCONF might be of interest outside the NM area, but probably
not until then.

> If the NIST definition is correct, then the supporting  access
> control model(s) would need to be rather expressive.
> 

I wish them good luck with that.
Ignore the KISS Principle at your own risk. ;-)


> Randy
> 


Andy

From calle@tail-f.com  Mon Feb 22 22:13:22 2010
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Randy,

We have experiences with real applications of NETCONF outside the realm
of network elements.

The various management activities I've seen for "the cloud" (both
internal to vendors and in emerging standard activities) seems to be
coming from the enterprise programming side and be leaning heavily
on SOA (WSDL, SOAP) and REST technologies.

Having said that I think there defnitely is a role to play for NETCONF
for the packet/frame infrastructure of "the cloud". Many types of
provisioning scenarios includes making fairly complex changes the
configuration state of N network boxes (where N > 2). This is an area
where NETCONF shines with its formal modeling language, and validation
and transaction components.

On 2010-02-22 22:40 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
> Does anyone think that Netconf would find use in this, or is
> the thinking still that Netconf's usage would be limited to
> routers, bridges, and the like?
>
> If the NIST definition is correct, then the supporting  access
> control model(s) would need to be rather expressive.
>
> Randy
>
>> From: "Dave CROCKER"<dhc2@dcrocker.net>
>> To: "Melinda Shore"<shore@arsc.edu>
>> Cc:<clouds@ietf.org>; "David Chadwick"<d.w.chadwick@kent.ac.uk>;<ietf@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: Announcing Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 (March, 2010, Anaheim,CA)
>>
>>
>> On 2/22/2010 12:59 PM, Melinda Shore wrote:
>>> On Feb 22, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>> My thought exactly. The distinction between cloud computing and open grid
>>>> computing is very small (or possibly zero)
>>>
>>> With all due respect, Brian, it's really not. With cloud
>>> computing you're typically dealing with multitenanting issues
>>> and a bunch of other layer 8-9 stuff that tends (of necessity)
>>> to be reflected down the stack, and I think I can see an
>>> argument for cloud computing belonging in the RAI space,
>>> or at least having substantial overlap.
>>
>>
>> Having recently gone through the exercise of trying to understand what these
>> different terms actually meant, I discovered that the underlying problem is that
>> you are both right, as are a variety of other people who have other views...
>>
>> As already noted, the term 'cloud' is now used in many different ways, including
>> as a synonym for 'network' and for 'Internet', even amongst technical folk.
>> (Really.)
>>
>> There are some people who have very specific and nuanced technical definitions,
>> including distinguishing cloud from grid.  But no set of definitions seems to
>> have a broad base of support.
>>
>> For defining 'cloud', one group I'm participating in decided it was happy with
>> the NIST language:
>>
>>      <http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SNS/cloud-computing/cloud-def-v15.doc>
> ...
>
> _______________________________________________
> Netconf mailing list
> Netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


From andyb@iwl.com  Mon Feb 22 22:35:41 2010
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Hi,

I would like some time at the IETF #77 NETCONF meeting
to discuss this draft and NETCONF access control in general.
That is, if there is time at the end of the meeting,
after all the chartered work items have been discussed.


thanks,
Andy



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : Network Configuration Protocol Access Control Model
	Author(s)       : A. Bierman
	Filename        : draft-bierman-netconf-access-control-00.txt
	Pages           : 46
	Date            : 2010-02-22

The standardization of network configuration interfaces for use with
the NETCONF protocol requires a structured and secure operating
environment, which promotes human usability and multi-vendor
interoperability.  There is a need for standard mechanisms to
restrict NETCONF protocol access for particular users to a pre-
configured subset of all available NETCONF operations and content.
This document discusses requirements for a suitable access control
model, and provides one solution which meets these requirements.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bierman-netconf-access-control-00.txt

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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon Feb 22 23:15:52 2010
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Hi -

> From: "Carl Moberg" <calle@tail-f.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: <netconf@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Fw: Announcing Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 (March, 2010, Anaheim, CA)
...
> We have experiences with real applications of NETCONF outside the realm
> of network elements.
> 
> The various management activities I've seen for "the cloud" (both
> internal to vendors and in emerging standard activities) seems to be
> coming from the enterprise programming side and be leaning heavily
> on SOA (WSDL, SOAP) and REST technologies.
> 
> Having said that I think there defnitely is a role to play for NETCONF
> for the packet/frame infrastructure of "the cloud". Many types of
> provisioning scenarios includes making fairly complex changes the
> configuration state of N network boxes (where N > 2). This is an area
> where NETCONF shines with its formal modeling language, and validation
> and transaction components.
...

Care to share any "lessons learned" with access control models to support
this environment?  I think it would be helpful to have both minimum requirements,
as well as cases of "we thought we'd need such-and-such, but it turned out
to be overkill."

Randy


From bwijnen@bwijnen.net  Fri Feb 19 14:55:34 2010
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation
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I have learned from VACM two things:

- We should not over-engineer. We did that with VACM. Nodbody uses/wants =
it,
  It was mainly a theorethical exercise.
- Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way (like just read and =
write acces),
  it is not being used in a simple way... mostly (I think) because we =
overengineered it and
  so it looks/feels compliated to do even the simple thing.

my 2 cents,
Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andy Bierman=20
  To: Phil Shafer=20
  Cc: NETCONF=20
  Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 8:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Netconf] NETCONF replace operation


  Phil Shafer wrote:
  > Andy Bierman writes:
  >> We should learn from VACM and move on.
  >=20
  > IMHO we should learn this isn't a problem we will solve in the next
  > little while and our efforts will be better spent on other issues
  > where we can bear fruit that people will need and use.
  >=20

  If NETCONF is going to be a real replacement/supplement to CLI
  then it needs at least some of the ACM features used in CLI.
  Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI access control.
  Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and everybody else.

  IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in NETCONF =
standard.


  > Thanks,
  >  Phil
  >=20

  Andy
  _______________________________________________
  Netconf mailing list
  Netconf@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----



  Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
  Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com=20
  Versie: 9.0.733 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2697 - datum van uitgifte: =
02/19/10 08:34:00

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have learned from VACM two things:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- We should not over-engineer. We did that with =
VACM. Nodbody=20
uses/wants it,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; It was mainly a theorethical =
exercise.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- Even though VACM can be configerd in a simple way =
(like just=20
read and write acces),</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; it is not being used in a simple way... =
mostly (I=20
think) because we overengineered it and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp; so it looks/feels compliated to do even the =
simple=20
thing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>my 2 cents,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dandyb@iwl.com href=3D"mailto:andyb@iwl.com">Andy =
Bierman</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dphil@juniper.net =

  href=3D"mailto:phil@juniper.net">Phil Shafer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">NETCONF</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 19, 2010 =
8:37=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Netconf] NETCONF =
replace=20
  operation</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Phil Shafer wrote:<BR>&gt; Andy Bierman =
writes:<BR>&gt;&gt; We=20
  should learn from VACM and move on.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; IMHO we should =
learn this=20
  isn't a problem we will solve in the next<BR>&gt; little while and our =
efforts=20
  will be better spent on other issues<BR>&gt; where we can bear fruit =
that=20
  people will need and use.<BR>&gt; <BR><BR>If NETCONF is going to be a =
real=20
  replacement/supplement to CLI<BR>then it needs at least some of the =
ACM=20
  features used in CLI.<BR>Some operators use Radius and TACACS+ for CLI =
access=20
  control.<BR>Some just use 2 types of passwords -- root user and =
everybody=20
  else.<BR><BR>IMO, we should support these CLI access control modes in =
NETCONF=20
  standard.<BR><BR><BR>&gt; Thanks,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; Phil<BR>&gt;=20
  =
<BR><BR>Andy<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Netcon=
f=20
  mailing list<BR><A =
href=3D"mailto:Netconf@ietf.org">Netconf@ietf.org</A><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/netconf</A><BR>
  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P><BR>Geen virus gevonden in het =
binnenkomende-bericht.<BR>Gecontroleerd=20
  door AVG - <A href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A> <BR>Versie: =
9.0.733 /=20
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : YANG Module for NETCONF Monitoring
	Author(s)       : M. Scott, M. Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt
	Pages           : 38
	Date            : 2010-02-23

This document defines a NETCONF data model to be used to monitor the
NETCONF protocol.  The monitoring data model includes information
about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks and statistics.  This data
facilitates the management of a NETCONF server.  This document also
defines methods for NETCONF clients to discover data models supported
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Subject: [Netconf] The Term Schema WAS:FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt
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=20
Hi All,

just before we go to AD review there is one issue we=20
should clarify and get the WG consensus.

-> Where is the correct place to define the term "schema"?

Originally we had this in Monitoring draft.
Based on Juergen's proposal to do it in YANG Mark deleted=20
in the Monitoring draft.

The new proposal is to define it in 4741bis since it is=20
a basic term, which can be used in different NETCONF-related=20
documents. I as a contributor support if it is done in 4741bis.

Please state your opinion by choosing one of the options=20
by Feb 26 EOB PT.

Mehmet


-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of ext Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:15 PM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group of
the IETF.


	Title           : YANG Module for NETCONF Monitoring
	Author(s)       : M. Scott, M. Bjorklund
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt
	Pages           : 38
	Date            : 2010-02-23

This document defines a NETCONF data model to be used to monitor the
NETCONF protocol.  The monitoring data model includes information
about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks and statistics.  This data
facilitates the management of a NETCONF server.  This document also
defines methods for NETCONF clients to discover data models supported
by a NETCONF server and defines a new NETCONF <get-schema> operation
to retrieve them.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt

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From bertietf@bwijnen.net  Tue Feb 23 13:08:55 2010
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] The Term Schema WAS:FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt
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I am fine with describing Schema in RFC4741bis

Bert
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ersue, Mehmet (NSN - DE/Munich)=20
  To: netconf@ietf.org=20
  Cc: ext Bert (IETF) Wijnen=20
  Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:51 PM
  Subject: The Term Schema WAS:FW: [Netconf] I-D =
Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt



  Hi All,

  just before we go to AD review there is one issue we=20
  should clarify and get the WG consensus.

  -> Where is the correct place to define the term "schema"?

  Originally we had this in Monitoring draft.
  Based on Juergen's proposal to do it in YANG Mark deleted=20
  in the Monitoring draft.

  The new proposal is to define it in 4741bis since it is=20
  a basic term, which can be used in different NETCONF-related=20
  documents. I as a contributor support if it is done in 4741bis.

  Please state your opinion by choosing one of the options=20
  by Feb 26 EOB PT.

  Mehmet


  -----Original Message-----
  From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On
  Behalf Of ext Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
  Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:15 PM
  To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
  Cc: netconf@ietf.org
  Subject: [Netconf] I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt

  A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
  directories.
  This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration Working Group =
of
  the IETF.


  Title           : YANG Module for NETCONF Monitoring
  Author(s)       : M. Scott, M. Bjorklund
  Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt
  Pages           : 38
  Date            : 2010-02-23

  This document defines a NETCONF data model to be used to monitor the
  NETCONF protocol.  The monitoring data model includes information
  about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks and statistics.  This data
  facilitates the management of a NETCONF server.  This document also
  defines methods for NETCONF clients to discover data models supported
  by a NETCONF server and defines a new NETCONF <get-schema> operation
  to retrieve them.

  A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
  =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt

  Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
  ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

  Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
  implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
  Internet-Draft.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----



  Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
  Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com=20
  Versie: 9.0.733 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2705 - datum van uitgifte: =
02/23/10 08:34:00

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18882">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am fine with describing Schema in =
RFC4741bis</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Bert</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dmehmet.ersue@nsn.com =
href=3D"mailto:mehmet.ersue@nsn.com">Ersue, Mehmet=20
  (NSN - DE/Munich)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dnetconf@ietf.org =

  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Dbertietf@bwijnen.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:bertietf@bwijnen.net">ext Bert (IETF) Wijnen</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 23, =
2010 9:51=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> The Term Schema =
WAS:FW:=20
  [Netconf] I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><BR>Hi All,<BR><BR>just before we go to AD review there =
is one=20
  issue we <BR>should clarify and get the WG consensus.<BR><BR>-&gt; =
Where is=20
  the correct place to define the term "schema"?<BR><BR>Originally we =
had this=20
  in Monitoring draft.<BR>Based on Juergen's proposal to do it in YANG =
Mark=20
  deleted <BR>in the Monitoring draft.<BR><BR>The new proposal is to =
define it=20
  in 4741bis since it is <BR>a basic term, which can be used in =
different=20
  NETCONF-related <BR>documents. I as a contributor support if it is =
done in=20
  4741bis.<BR><BR>Please state your opinion by choosing one of the =
options=20
  <BR>by Feb 26 EOB PT.<BR><BR>Mehmet<BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR>From: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org">netconf-bounces@ietf.org</A>=20
  [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On<BR>Behalf Of ext <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</A><BR>=
Sent:=20
  Tuesday, February 23, 2010 9:15 PM<BR>To: <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</A><BR>Cc: =
<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">netconf@ietf.org</A><BR>Subject: =
[Netconf] I-D=20
  Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt<BR><BR>A New =
Internet-Draft is=20
  available from the on-line Internet-Drafts<BR>directories.<BR>This =
draft is a=20
  work item of the Network Configuration Working Group of<BR>the=20
  =
IETF.<BR><BR><BR>Title&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;=20
  : YANG Module for NETCONF=20
  Monitoring<BR>Author(s)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; : M. =
Scott, M.=20
  Bjorklund<BR>Filename&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :=20
  =
draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt<BR>Pages&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  : =
38<BR>Date&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
  : 2010-02-23<BR><BR>This document defines a NETCONF data model to be =
used to=20
  monitor the<BR>NETCONF protocol.&nbsp; The monitoring data model =
includes=20
  information<BR>about NETCONF datastores, sessions, locks and =
statistics.&nbsp;=20
  This data<BR>facilitates the management of a NETCONF server.&nbsp; =
This=20
  document also<BR>defines methods for NETCONF clients to discover data =
models=20
  supported<BR>by a NETCONF server and defines a new NETCONF =
&lt;get-schema&gt;=20
  operation<BR>to retrieve them.<BR><BR>A URL for this Internet-Draft =
is:<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring=
-12.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netconf-monitorin=
g-12.txt</A><BR><BR>Internet-Drafts=20
  are also available by anonymous FTP at:<BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-=
drafts/</A><BR><BR>Below=20
  is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail =
reader<BR>implementation=20
  to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of =
the<BR>Internet-Draft.<BR>
  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P><BR>Geen virus gevonden in het =
binnenkomende-bericht.<BR>Gecontroleerd=20
  door AVG - <A href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A> <BR>Versie: =
9.0.733 /=20
  Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/2705 - datum van uitgifte: 02/23/10=20
08:34:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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"Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net> wrote:
> I am fine with describing Schema in RFC4741bis

+1


/martin

From dromasca@avaya.com  Wed Feb 24 05:37:47 2010
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>, <bertietf@bwijnen.net>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] The Term Schema WAS:FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt
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+1=20

Dan
(speaking as contributor)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund
> Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2010 11:17 PM
> To: bertietf@bwijnen.net
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] The Term Schema WAS:FW: I-D=20
> Action:draft-ietf-netconf-monitoring-12.txt
>=20
> "Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net> wrote:
> > I am fine with describing Schema in RFC4741bis
>=20
> +1
>=20
>=20
> /martin
> _______________________________________________
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>=20

From calle@tail-f.com  Thu Feb 25 07:28:08 2010
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Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] Fw: Announcing Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 (March, 2010, Anaheim, CA)
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On 2010-02-23 8:22 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: "Carl Moberg"<calle@tail-f.com>
>> To: "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>> Cc:<netconf@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Fw: Announcing Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 (March, 2010, Anaheim, CA)
> ...
>> We have experiences with real applications of NETCONF outside the realm
>> of network elements.
>>
>> The various management activities I've seen for "the cloud" (both
>> internal to vendors and in emerging standard activities) seems to be
>> coming from the enterprise programming side and be leaning heavily
>> on SOA (WSDL, SOAP) and REST technologies.
>>
>> Having said that I think there defnitely is a role to play for NETCONF
>> for the packet/frame infrastructure of "the cloud". Many types of
>> provisioning scenarios includes making fairly complex changes the
>> configuration state of N network boxes (where N>  2). This is an area
>> where NETCONF shines with its formal modeling language, and validation
>> and transaction components.
> ...
>
> Care to share any "lessons learned" with access control models to support
> this environment?  I think it would be helpful to have both minimum requirements,
> as well as cases of "we thought we'd need such-and-such, but it turned out
> to be overkill."

  My response was perhaps more to the question about experience
  with non-router/bridge experience in general than with specific
  focus on access control.

  However, my simple input on the application of NETCONF on the
  infrastructure part of "cloud" deployments (which, in my mind, is an
  operational model) is that it seems to have the same expectations on
  the network as any "service oriented" network in the service provider
  world. For example a network that provides end-customer VPNs:
   - One set of people, support systems and checklists/processes that
     work on keeping the network running smoothly and ready for service
     (IS-IS is stable, full iBGP visibility for VPLS, etc) - The NOC team
   - Another set of people, support systems and checklists that
     provisions customer-oriented "services", e.g. makes sure that all
     involved PE-routers are automatically and correctly configured
     for customer VPNs - The Service Provisioning team

  The NOC team typically and historically require full access to all
  configurables in the box and with the exception of some internal
  hierarchy (e.g. specific security clearance needed to reconfigure
  access control or standard filters) there no strong reason to change
  this.

  The Service Provisioning team on the other hand expects the networ
  to be up and stable and provisions services on the boxes through
  "APIs" (CLI-scrapers today) and have no reason to touch anything but
  the configuration parameters that are related to the provisioned
  services.

  In the cloud world, the "services" are "computational loads" and the
  big difference may be that the frequency of change can be quite high
  with the level of self-management/open APIs proposed by some of the
  participating companies.

  With this type of simple scenario I think the access control model
  can be made fairly simple (NOC->superuser, Services->Limited view
  of configurables and operationf). I like what I have seen in Andy's
  draft this far (one quick glance through it) and I think it makes for
  a good starting point for the discussion.

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Thu Feb 25 11:28:41 2010
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Hi -

> From: "Carl Moberg" <calle@tail-f.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: <netconf@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Netconf] Fw: Announcing Clouds bar BoF during IETF-77 (March, 2010, Anaheim, CA)
...
>   However, my simple input on the application of NETCONF on the
>   infrastructure part of "cloud" deployments (which, in my mind, is an
>   operational model) is that it seems to have the same expectations on
>   the network as any "service oriented" network in the service provider
>   world. For example a network that provides end-customer VPNs:
>    - One set of people, support systems and checklists/processes that
>      work on keeping the network running smoothly and ready for service
>      (IS-IS is stable, full iBGP visibility for VPLS, etc) - The NOC team
>    - Another set of people, support systems and checklists that
>      provisions customer-oriented "services", e.g. makes sure that all
>      involved PE-routers are automatically and correctly configured
>      for customer VPNs - The Service Provisioning team
> 
>   The NOC team typically and historically require full access to all
>   configurables in the box and with the exception of some internal
>   hierarchy (e.g. specific security clearance needed to reconfigure
>   access control or standard filters) there no strong reason to change
>   this.
> 
>   The Service Provisioning team on the other hand expects the networ
>   to be up and stable and provisions services on the boxes through
>   "APIs" (CLI-scrapers today) and have no reason to touch anything but
>   the configuration parameters that are related to the provisioned
>   services.
> 
>   In the cloud world, the "services" are "computational loads" and the
>   big difference may be that the frequency of change can be quite high
>   with the level of self-management/open APIs proposed by some of the
>   participating companies.
> 
>   With this type of simple scenario I think the access control model
>   can be made fairly simple (NOC->superuser, Services->Limited view
>   of configurables and operationf). I like what I have seen in Andy's
>   draft this far (one quick glance through it) and I think it makes for
>   a good starting point for the discussion.

Following up for clarification...

(1) When you write "Services->Limited view", does that mean that
all members of the "Service Provisioning team" have exactly the
same access rights to exactly the same bits of information?

(2) Where does the customer fit in this model?

Randy


From mark.scott@ericsson.com  Fri Feb 26 10:46:50 2010
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+1

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Martin Bjorklund
Sent: February-23-10 4:17 PM
To: bertietf@bwijnen.net
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netconf] The Term Schema WAS:FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-netcon=
f-monitoring-12.txt

"Bert Wijnen \(IETF\)" <bertietf@bwijnen.net> wrote:
> I am fine with describing Schema in RFC4741bis

+1


/martin
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