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Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
Review result: Ready

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written
primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF
discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this
review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.

I reviewed this in conjunction with the set of related WG documents on
NETCONF/RESTCONF subscriptions and event notifications.  On this specific
document, I didn't find any issues, though I do have comments that will be send
on other documents in the set, some of which may influence this once, since
they are closely related.


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Subject: [netconf] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-17
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Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
Review result: Ready with Issues

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written
primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF
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When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this
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tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.

I reviewed this in conjunction with the set of related WG documents on
NETCONF/RESTCONF subscriptions and event notifications.  I also have some
comments on other documents in the set, some of which may influence this once,
since they are closely related.

In figure 3, and text on page 11, there is an example with a DiffServ codepoint
value of "10".  This could be interpreted as binary, decimal, hexadecimal, etc.
 It should be clear what the base is supposed to be.  It seemed pretty
ambiguous in this and the related documents, so it's not apparent that an
implementer would be sure to get it right or for it to be compatible.

I have other broad comments on the DSCP usage that will be in review comments
for the subscribed-notifications draft where it is more appropriate.


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Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
Review result: Ready with Issues

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written
primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF
discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this
review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.

I reviewed this in conjunction with the set of related WG documents on
NETCONF/RESTCONF subscriptions and event notifications.   I have comments that
will be sent on other documents in the set, some of which may influence this
once, since they are closely related.

Figure 3 shows a DSCP value of 10, but it isn't clear what the number base is
supposed to be, and this should be specified for this protocol, since many
examples can be found in other material of DSCP values indicated in binary,
decimal, or hexadecimal.

In section 4, the first bullet discusses taking a "priority" and copying it
into a "weighting" field.  Since priority and weight can be different, though
are closely related, this seems a bit confusing.  I think the intention here
for HTTP2 effects that are trying to be achieved should be discussed more so
that it is clear to implementers and users what more specific effects this
should have.


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Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
Review result: Almost Ready

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written
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authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF
discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this
review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.

The document includes a way intended to ask for a particular DiffServ Code
Point (DSCP) value to be used by a publisher.  This is missing some context. 
Why would a subscriber do this?  Is it asking for DSCP values that it assumes
are honored and not bleached or altered all the way between it and the
publisher?  Are there conditions normal for the use of this protocol where that
assumption usually holds?

By asking for a particular DSCP to be set, the subscriber is maybe attempting
to optimize the behavior during some type of overload, where they really want
some notifications quickly, but others aren't as important, and may be fine to
drop and have retransmitted by TCP, etc.  This all seems to be implicit though,
with no deep discussion of what the protocol is attempting to enable with this
option or how it would be productively used.

It seems to be considered fatal if a publisher can't write a requested DSCP
value.  The requests fail with "dscp-unavailable".  This seems too drastic,
since the DSCP is anyways advisory to nodes on the path, and may be altered
anyways.  I'm not sure why this would be considered a fatal issue to the
subscription.

The feature description for "dscp" mischaracterizes it as a pure priority
mechanism, rather than a more general indication of class of service treatment:
 "This feature indicates a publisher supports the placement of suggested
prioritization levels for network transport within notification messages."  It
could be more correct to say something like "This feature indicates that a
publisher supports the ability to set the DiffServ Code Point (DSCP) value in
outgoing packets."

The same comment is applicable in the dscp leaf description on page 45.  It is
mischaracterized as a pure priority mechanism, which is not how the IETF has
defined DSCP.

The weighting feature seems to need a little bit more work.  It allows values
between 0 and 255, and there is some description that bandwidth is supposed to
be allocated somehow proportional to the weighting, but it's not really clear
how this would be done or that it makes sense.   Is it assumed that the
publisher has some fixed bandwidth limit that it's trying to stay within, and
that it can choose messages from streams (based on their size, frequency, etc)
in some way to honor the weights?  What is the method to compute the
proportions?  Is it purely linear?  What if there is no contention?  What if
there is no inherrent bandwidth limit known to the publisher (since generally
there probably wouldn't be)?  The intention and detail of what this is trying
to achieve seems to need to be worked through a bit more to avoid just having a
complex feature that might not really achieve much real result, depending on
how its implemented.

Is there any thought on phase effects, with regard to events that have many
subscribers, causing a large number of simultaneous writes on different
streams?  Overall, there could be low bandwidth utilization for notifications,
but then sudden spikes when there is a coupling in the notifications going out
on multiple streams.  This could lead to some connections seeing losses and
others not, for instance, and there might be a reason to try to dither the
writes or have other logic encouraged to handle surges of outgoing
notifications.  Since the underlying transports are TCP-based, losses will be
recovered eventually, but there could be latency created in the meantime.  This
might motivate some of the QoS features that are cursorily discussed, but its
not clear how they would be effective.



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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>, tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Hi,

I agree with Juergen's view to add possibility of generating keys with an a=
ction that becomes (protected) configuration.

See more below.

/Balazs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:53 PM
> To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
> Cc: Bal=E1zs Kov=E1cs <balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com>; tom petch
> <ietfc@btconnect.com>; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
>=20
> I agree, I think we need to distinguish
>=20
> - upload of keys
> - generation of keys on the box that become (protected) configuration
> - generation of keys on the box that will to into hardware protected
>   storage (and never be accessible)
>=20
> and the creation of a private key that becomes (protected) configuration =
is
> similar to the creation of a user account, where an unused uid is allocat=
ed
> that becomes configuration.
>=20
> /js
>=20
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 08:25:26PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > Hi Balazs,
> >
> > > In some implementations I can understand that backup/restore is via
> YANG interface, but backup/restore is possible by other methods too.  On
> the other hand, the private key material should be created and kept on th=
e
> owner device according to best security practices and certification done =
by
> for example a certificate signing request.
> > >
> > > In that sense the generate-hidden-key action and the CSR creation act=
ion
> are solving the most common need for handling keys, and that is really
> regardless if the key is stored in a TPM, a file system, or centralized K=
MS.
> >
> > True.
> >
> > > I personally was fine with 'hidden' and I was also ok with the curren=
t
> actions, it was only the descriptions that seemed to be restrictive to TP=
M
> usage, thus I was asking some clarification. However, if 'hidden' is not =
true
> this way, then just call it 'generate-key'. Would that then create a bina=
ry
> string for the 'private-key' in operational too instead of 'permanently-h=
idden'
> thus you are referring to a 3rd option?
> >
> > As I understand it, your intention is to have users 1) use actions to g=
enerate
> private keys and CSRs and 2) that the private-key value is otherwise
> inaccessible to the users.   I don't believe you have a concern with the =
keys
> being "configuration" (since the nacm:default-deny-all makes the value
> inaccessible), and that the only bad part with the current model is that =
the
> user has to pass the private key value, which is bad because a) they are
> aware of the private key value and also it's possible that the private ke=
y value
> they generate is poor quality (e.g. having low entropy).

Yes. Correct.=20

> >
> > This is effectively what was defined on page 22 in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-00
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-00> (we moved to
> the current strategy in the next version of that draft where (surprise!) =
the
> enum was called "INACCESSIBLE".   Some more history is here:
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/OtYAlqLmlErfCr3Z4mcXqRvez
> 48
> <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/OtYAlqLmlErfCr3Z4mcXqRve
> z48>.
> >
> > The main problem with this is actions don't typically create configurat=
ion,
> though we certainly could define this action as doing so (i.e., it locks
> <running> when called)...and we might even see ourselves doing this even
> for keys that are *interactively* generated by a cryptographic processor.=
  Of
> course, any keys generated by the vendor during manufacturing (i.e., the
> IDevID key) would still be operational state.
> >
> > In order to support systems that have crypto processors, since it may n=
ot
> be desirable to use the cryptographic processor for all keys, we need eit=
her a
> parameter or another action to direct the system to use the crypto proces=
sor
> to generate the key.
> >
> > Regarding what does "inaccessible" mean, the intention is that the valu=
e is
> not accessible for reasons beyond access control, with this driving use-c=
ase
> being a cryptographic processor.   Since the term (inaccessible) is being=
 used
> in a YANG module, it stands to reason that it applies to all YANG-driven
> interfaces and that there is no statement regarding how it may or may not=
 be
> "inaccessible" in other interfaces.  That said, the goal of YANG modules =
is to
> model reality, not just a view presented by YANG-driven interfaces, and I
> imagine great confusion ensuing if mismatches exist across interfaces.

I see, and agree. With the suggestion to make it mean "inaccessible via YAN=
G interface" I think I rather meant all interface exposed to the same type =
of actor. For example if YANG interface is an external operator interface, =
then the key should of course be consistently inaccessible on all other typ=
e of external operator interface.

> >
> > I agree that the description statement for the "permanently-hidden"
> enumeration can be improved, how about this?
> >
> >     leaf private-key {
> >       nacm:default-deny-all;
> >       type union {
> >         type binary;
> >         type enumeration {
> >           enum permanently-hidden {
> >             description
> >               "The private key is inaccessible due to being
> >                protected by the system (e.g., a cryptographic
> >                hardware module).";
> >           }
> >         }
> >       }
> >       ...
> >     }
> >
> > Notes:
> >
> > 1) I removed the "It is not possible to configure a permanently hidden =
key,
> as a real private key value must be set." text because it was confusing a=
nd
> yet what's intended is self-evident (i.e., the leaf is a union of a value=
 and an
> enum, only one can be passed).
> >

OK.

> > 2) I removed "Permanently hidden keys cannot be archived or backed up."
> text because it was a bit overreaching.  As mentioned, even TPM-protected
> keys can be backed-up/restored if shrouded and the restoration is to the
> same machine.  The more correct statement is "RMA workflows are limited",
> but it doesn't need to be said here.
> >
> >

OK.

> > If the goal is to open up these actions for general use, I think that w=
e
> SHOULD update them to generate *configuration*.   Clearly the intent is t=
hat
> keys are configuration, use of the action should be seen as supporting a =
best
> practice, but otherwise shouldn't change the characteristic that interact=
ively-
> generated keys are configuration.
> >

I'm fine with your proposal. I have no issues with actions generating confi=
guration (but I never followed the discussions about actions and datastores=
) --that is relevant for backup--and we see the example of this keystore us=
e case and also the user management use case Juergen brought up.

> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Kent // contributor
> >
> >
> >
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Wed Apr  3 04:44:38 2019
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Cc: kent+ietf@watsen.net, netconf@ietf.org
From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Hi,

Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> I agree, I think we need to distinguish
> 
> - upload of keys
> - generation of keys on the box that become (protected) configuration
> - generation of keys on the box that will to into hardware protected
>   storage (and never be accessible)

So, the current model supports 1 and 3 above.

Do we have to support 2?  (and what does "(protected) configuration"
mean?  is this different from "configuration"?)

> and the creation of a private key that becomes (protected)
> configuration is similar to the creation of a user account, where an
> unused uid is allocated that becomes configuration.

AFAIK there is no standard model defined that actually do this.

The closest thing we have is the "type" of an interface:

           When an interface entry is created, a server MAY
           initialize the type leaf with a valid value, e.g., if it
           is possible to derive the type from the name of the
           interface.

If private keys are handled like this, then I can accept it.  But we
should NOT introduce special actions/rpcs that manipulate the
configuration.


/martin


> 
> /js
> 
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 08:25:26PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > Hi Balazs,
> > 
> > > In some implementations I can understand that backup/restore is via YANG interface, but backup/restore is possible by other methods too.  On the other hand, the private key material should be created and kept on the owner device according to best security practices and certification done by for example a certificate signing request.
> > > 
> > > In that sense the generate-hidden-key action and the CSR creation action are solving the most common need for handling keys, and that is really regardless if the key is stored in a TPM, a file system, or centralized KMS.
> > 
> > True.
> > 
> > > I personally was fine with 'hidden' and I was also ok with the current actions, it was only the descriptions that seemed to be restrictive to TPM usage, thus I was asking some clarification. However, if 'hidden' is not true this way, then just call it 'generate-key'. Would that then create a binary string for the 'private-key' in operational too instead of 'permanently-hidden' thus you are referring to a 3rd option?
> > 
> > As I understand it, your intention is to have users 1) use actions to generate private keys and CSRs and 2) that the private-key value is otherwise inaccessible to the users.   I don't believe you have a concern with the keys being "configuration" (since the nacm:default-deny-all makes the value inaccessible), and that the only bad part with the current model is that the user has to pass the private key value, which is bad because a) they are aware of the private key value and also it's possible that the private key value they generate is poor quality (e.g. having low entropy).
> > 
> > This is effectively what was defined on page 22 in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-00 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-00> (we moved to the current strategy in the next version of that draft where (surprise!) the enum was called "INACCESSIBLE".   Some more history is here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/OtYAlqLmlErfCr3Z4mcXqRvez48 <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/OtYAlqLmlErfCr3Z4mcXqRvez48>.
> > 
> > The main problem with this is actions don't typically create configuration, though we certainly could define this action as doing so (i.e., it locks <running> when called)...and we might even see ourselves doing this even for keys that are *interactively* generated by a cryptographic processor.  Of course, any keys generated by the vendor during manufacturing (i.e., the IDevID key) would still be operational state.
> > 
> > In order to support systems that have crypto processors, since it may not be desirable to use the cryptographic processor for all keys, we need either a parameter or another action to direct the system to use the crypto processor to generate the key.
> > 
> > Regarding what does "inaccessible" mean, the intention is that the value is not accessible for reasons beyond access control, with this driving use-case being a cryptographic processor.   Since the term (inaccessible) is being used in a YANG module, it stands to reason that it applies to all YANG-driven interfaces and that there is no statement regarding how it may or may not be "inaccessible" in other interfaces.  That said, the goal of YANG modules is to model reality, not just a view presented by YANG-driven interfaces, and I imagine great confusion ensuing if mismatches exist across interfaces.
> > 
> > I agree that the description statement for the "permanently-hidden" enumeration can be improved, how about this?
> > 
> >     leaf private-key {
> >       nacm:default-deny-all;
> >       type union {
> >         type binary;
> >         type enumeration {
> >           enum permanently-hidden {
> >             description
> >               "The private key is inaccessible due to being
> >                protected by the system (e.g., a cryptographic
> >                hardware module).";
> >           }
> >         }
> >       }
> >       ...
> >     }
> > 
> > Notes:
> > 
> > 1) I removed the "It is not possible to configure a permanently hidden key, as a real private key value must be set." text because it was confusing and yet what's intended is self-evident (i.e., the leaf is a union of a value and an enum, only one can be passed).
> > 
> > 2) I removed "Permanently hidden keys cannot be archived or backed up." text because it was a bit overreaching.  As mentioned, even TPM-protected keys can be backed-up/restored if shrouded and the restoration is to the same machine.  The more correct statement is "RMA workflows are limited", but it doesn't need to be said here.
> > 
> > 
> > If the goal is to open up these actions for general use, I think that we SHOULD update them to generate *configuration*.   Clearly the intent is that keys are configuration, use of the action should be seen as supporting a best practice, but otherwise shouldn't change the characteristic that interactively-generated keys are configuration.
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> > 
> > Kent // contributor
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 


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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 01:44:24PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > I agree, I think we need to distinguish
> > 
> > - upload of keys
> > - generation of keys on the box that become (protected) configuration
> > - generation of keys on the box that will to into hardware protected
> >   storage (and never be accessible)
> 
> So, the current model supports 1 and 3 above.
> 
> Do we have to support 2?  (and what does "(protected) configuration"
> mean?  is this different from "configuration"?)

My understanding is that this is being done. Protected configuration
means that the private key becomes configuration (config true) but the
private config true key is protected via nacm:default-deny-all.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 07:12:36 -0700
Cc: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, httpbis-chairs@ietf.org, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, netconf@ietf.org
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References: <01000169bf4bb1d5-f6fc0ffc-70e0-439d-9b96-59540b334d0f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <CAOdDvNrgFgjp6uvUPS1EDzS_ZUBwsr06dvWY7gH+fmSabkpa-Q@mail.gmail.com> <01000169cb48a8fe-2012b30c-b858-4b9f-aeea-7c22802b96d9-000000@email.amazonses.com> <CAOdDvNrE4QKfC+-XsaTS_tg8vGbMZqF=iFBn1iKJMW5UvumqjQ@mail.gmail.com> <01000169cc22f874-10931e3c-eedd-41f9-a0e6-ff051c7d2002-000000@email.amazonses.com> <CAOdDvNrQvUUUbwfF0XtC0R_7EfF9k02S1ZYHJy-c12enBBOeTQ@mail.gmail.com> <01000169def07790-5f902f1b-ddce-438b-8e05-d4b7e82818bc-000000@email.amazonses.com> <CAOdDvNoDFoa30tJ8XDz482_38rw8+ajwW4+dSx7s_psoFY7ukQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/D6XyKmMPAGyfzhBSskx_I24PVWs>
Subject: Re: [netconf] time to meet today after 5pm
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What started as a thread to figure out how to handle Kent=E2=80=99s I-D on H=
TTP configuration for RESTCONF, has resulted in an extensive discussion on t=
he model itself. This discussion belongs to the WG mailing list, and as such=
 I am adding the WG to the discussion.

See inline

> On Apr 4, 2019, at 6:09 AM, Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Kent, I am indeed a YANG novice. I apologize if that continues to add t=
o the confusion. At least I know a thing or two about HTTP :)
>=20
> it seems one of the high level problems we have is that restconf is using H=
TTP as a stateful connection oriented transport, when you simply cannot defi=
ne an http application that way. see 4.10 of bcp56bis https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-httpbis-bcp56bis/?include_text=3D1 .. this in turn cre=
ates your need for tcp keep alive configurations.. because restconf state re=
sides at least partially in the connection rather than statelessly in the ex=
changes, do I have that right?
>=20
> I would strongly advise staying away from the term keep-alive. It is a dep=
recated term of art that is not exactly what you are trying to do at the HTT=
P level. In the past it has both been a header field as well as a token on t=
he Connection header - and it seems you are describing some kind of message e=
xchange?
>=20
> on the client side..   module ietf-http-client {
> [..]
>             the aliveness of the HTTP server.  An unresponsive
>             HTTP server is dropped after approximately max-wait
>             * max-attempts seconds.";
>=20
>  what is the point of max-attempts? In what scenarios does N+1 generate a r=
eply that N does not due to connectivity timeout?
> isn't the server dropped after max-wait * (max-attempts + 1) seconds.. bec=
ause you use the max-wait timeout to trigger the first test
> as well as timeout the final test?
>=20
>              "Sets the amount of time in seconds after which if no
>               data has been received from the HTTP server, a HTTP
>=20
> what is data? TCP? HTTP protocol elements like HTTP/2 SETTINGS frames? HTT=
P headers? HTTP message bodies in all or part? HTTP
> message bodies to a particular one of your keep-alive requests? any of the=
m? all of them?  The answers are different if you're trying to
> test e2e.
>=20
> what message is supposed to the sent to the server? any guidance? and for t=
he server:
>=20
>              "Sets the amount of time in seconds after which if no
>               data has been received from the HTTP client, a HTTP
>               level message will be sent to test the aliveness of
>               the HTTP client.";
>=20
> I don't understand what kind of message is initiated by the HTTP server, a=
t least in a version portable fashion, to accomplish this.
>=20
>=20
>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:44 PM Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> But we must do something, this is a real issue.  We have to be able to co=
nfigure RESTCONF clients and servers.
>=20
> It sounds like this is a restconf yang model, not a base http yang model.

The intent has been to describe the minimum number of HTTP parameters for th=
e explicit configuration of RESTCONF client/server.=20

But based on this thread, I am assuming that the chairs for httpbis WG do no=
t regard the parameters or the approach to achieve =E2=80=9Cpersistence=E2=80=
=9D either correct or part of the HTTP protocol. While it casts doubt on the=
 proposed solution, it is now a decision for the NETCONF WG to decide whethe=
r they want to recast the draft as a RESTCONF HTTP module or go back to the d=
rawing board.

Thanks.

>=20
>>> Keepalives as well are a really tricky topic.. the mechanism you are usi=
ng is not really used on the Internet much these days and when it is used it=
 is used to manage persistence, not really timeouts and NAT rebindings which=
 I think is what you're getting at... I can think of 3 other techniques that=
 are used to try and manage rebindings.
>>=20
>> Actually, "managing persistence" is exactly what we're trying to achieve h=
ere.  Our show-stopping driving use-case regards RESTCONF Call Home (RFC 807=
1) and, in particular, point "S7" on page 8 of that document, without which a=
 remote device may become a "brick" and require a technician to perform on-s=
ite repair.
>=20
> please see the bcp56bis reference I made as well as the opening to 7230. H=
TTP is a stateless protocol, applications that are using it cannot be built a=
round other assumptions about the thransport - they lack version portability=
 and don't survive integration into the ecosystem of libraries, firewalls, r=
outers, load balancers, etc that are the strongest reason to base applicatio=
ns on http.
> =20
>>=20
>>> I'm also a little concerned about the thinking in the other protocols di=
scussion - http the protocol carries a variety of schemes beyond http:// and=
 https:// and that probably needs to be explored.
>>=20
>> Could you provide an example?  I'm aware that there are many other URI sc=
hemes (ldap, mailto, etc.), but they are not HTTP.  Are you saying there are=
 some URI schemes (e.g., "myhttp:") that are like an application-layer proto=
col on top of HTTP?   Or do you mean that HTTP may have different transport b=
indings besides TCP and TLS?  =20
>=20
> ftp:// ws:// wss:// are the most common schemes carried on http other than=
 http:// and https://. but the protocol is can carry most of what you can st=
ructure as a URI and content.
> =20
>>=20
>>> Which brings me to my question about what HTTP implementations might wan=
t to co-author. That wasn't meant as some kind of Not-Invented-Here comment.=
. rather it was trying to see if we are solving an interop problem or engagi=
ng in hope based standardization. HTTPbis tries hard to pursue work that ena=
bles interoperation between at least 2 parties that wish to interoperate and=
 that at least some part of that group of implementations is driving the sta=
ndard. I'm having trouble figuring out who those HTTP parties are here and I=
'm cautious about proceeding without that.
>>=20
>> As mentioned before, this work began as an effort to define the configura=
tion models for RESTCONF clients and servers.  The desire to have a *standar=
ds-based* way to do this is especially supported when thinking about deployi=
ng networks of heterogeneous devices to perform zerotouch bootstrapping (thi=
nk autonomic networking). =20
>>=20
>=20
> then perhaps a restconf yang model is what you are defining?
> =20
>>=20
>> With regards to the HTTP configuration model, it's not so much *if* there=
 will be an HTTP model, but to what extent you (your WG) would like to or de=
mand to be part of the effort to define it.   As the HTTP domain experts, an=
d we being the YANG experts, the ideal scenario is for us to strike a collab=
oration.   In particular, given that we're trying to put an end to this near=
ly 5-year long effort, we politely request that you give us the blessing to p=
roceed roughly as planned (i.e., defining a minimal skeleton with as many "f=
eature" statements as needed).   We envision this as a very short engagement=
 (Last Call immediately after Montreal), after which the HTTP model would li=
kely only be touched again when needed.  If history is a guide, I'd guess th=
at might not happen for 3-5 years.
>>=20
>> Would a collaboration be okay?  If yes, then is there someone in particul=
ar that I (as a contributor/author) can buddy up with in HTTPBIS to get expe=
rt-level advice?
>>=20
>=20
> This puts us in a tough spot. The -00 draft does not do a good job of desc=
ribing HTTP so I don't feel we can endorse it. The working group has an exte=
nsive set of adopted drafts right now and I don't believe it is the right pr=
iority to put this in front of them too in order to put the work in to make i=
t appropriately expressive - it would distract from the priorities the group=
 has decided on.
>=20
> What do you think of recasting this as a model limited to restconf based a=
pplications?
>=20
> -Patrick

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com

>=20

--Apple-Mail-52B2AC0F-F923-49C1-B3B8-711B82CDDA81
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">What started as a thread to figure out how t=
o handle Kent=E2=80=99s I-D on HTTP configuration for RESTCONF, has resulted=
 in an extensive discussion on the model itself. This discussion belongs to t=
he WG mailing list, and as such I am adding the WG to the discussion.<div><b=
r></div><div>See inline<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Apr 4, 2019, at 6:09 AM, P=
atrick McManus &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcmanus@ducksong.com">mcmanus@ducksong.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Kent, I am indeed a YANG novice. I apolo=
gize if that continues to add to the confusion. At least I know a thing or t=
wo about HTTP :)<div><br></div><div>it seems one of the high level problems w=
e have is that restconf is using HTTP as a stateful connection oriented tran=
sport, when you simply cannot define an http application that way. see 4.10 o=
f bcp56bis&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-httpb=
is-bcp56bis/?include_text=3D1">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-h=
ttpbis-bcp56bis/?include_text=3D1</a>&nbsp;.. this in turn creates your need=
 for tcp keep alive configurations.. because restconf state resides at least=
 partially in the connection rather than statelessly in the exchanges, do I h=
ave that right?</div><div><br></div><div>I would strongly advise staying awa=
y from the term keep-alive. It is a deprecated term of art that is not exact=
ly what you are trying to do at the HTTP level. In the past it has both been=
 a header field as well as a token on the Connection header - and it seems y=
ou are describing some kind of message exchange?</div><div><br></div><div><p=
re class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margi=
n-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"monospace, mo=
nospace">on the client side..   module ietf-http-client {
</font></pre>[..]</div><div><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:=
13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0=
)">            the aliveness of the HTTP server.  An unresponsive
            HTTP server is dropped after approximately max-wait
            * max-attempts seconds.";</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" styl=
e=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;=
color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:=
13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0=
)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> what is the point of max-att=
empts? In what scenarios does N+1 generate a reply that N does not due to co=
nnectivity timeout?<br></font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:r=
gb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">isn't the server drop=
ped after max-wait * (max-attempts + 1) seconds.. because you use the max-wa=
it timeout to trigger the first test</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage=
" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before=
:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">as well a=
s timeout the final test?</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"=
font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.33=
33px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">  =
           "Sets the amount of time in seconds after which if no
              data has been received from the HTTP server, a HTTP
<br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-t=
op:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"a=
rial, helvetica, sans-serif">what is data? TCP? HTTP protocol elements like H=
TTP/2 SETTINGS frames? HTTP headers? HTTP message bodies in all or part? HTT=
P</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D=
"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">message bodies to a particular one of your ke=
ep-alive requests? any of them? all of them?  The answers are different if y=
ou're trying to
</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D=
"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">test e2e.</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-new=
page" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-be=
fore:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>=
</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D=
"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">what message is supposed to the sent to the s=
erver? any guidance? and for the server:</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-new=
page" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-be=
fore:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br>=
</font></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><pre class=3D=
"gmail-newpage" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page"=
>             "Sets the amount of time in seconds after which if no
              data has been received from the HTTP client, a HTTP
              level message will be sent to test the aliveness of
              the HTTP client.";</pre></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" sty=
le=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page=
;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size=
:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I don't understand what kind=
 of message is initiated by the HTTP server, at least in a version portable f=
ashion, to accomplish this.</font></pre></div><div><br></div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 2, 20=
19 at 6:44 PM Kent Watsen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent%2Bietf@watsen.net">kent=
+ietf@watsen.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div><div>But we must do something, this is a real issue.&nbsp; We=
 have to be able to configure RESTCONF clients and servers.</div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It sounds like this is a restconf yang mod=
el, not a base http yang model.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div>The intent has been to describe the minimum number of HTTP parameters=
 for the explicit configuration of RESTCONF client/server.&nbsp;<div><br></d=
iv><div>But based on this thread, I am assuming that the chairs for httpbis W=
G do not regard the parameters or the approach to achieve =E2=80=9Cpersisten=
ce=E2=80=9D either correct or part of the HTTP protocol. While it casts doub=
t on the proposed solution, it is now a decision for the NETCONF WG to decid=
e whether they want to recast the draft as a RESTCONF HTTP module or go back=
 to the drawing board.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks.<br><div><br><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Keepaliv=
es as well are a really tricky topic.. the mechanism you are using is not re=
ally used on the Internet much these days and when it is used it is used to m=
anage persistence, not really timeouts and NAT rebindings which I think is w=
hat you're getting at... I can think of 3 other techniques that are used to t=
ry and manage rebindings. </div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Actually, "=
managing persistence" is exactly what we're trying to achieve here.&nbsp; Ou=
r show-stopping driving use-case regards RESTCONF Call Home (RFC 8071) and, i=
n particular, point "S7" on page 8 of that document, without which a remote d=
evice may become a "brick" and require a technician to perform on-site repai=
r.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>please see the bcp56bis=
 reference I made as well as the opening to 7230. HTTP is a stateless protoc=
ol, applications that are using it cannot be built around other assumptions a=
bout the thransport - they lack version portability and don't survive integr=
ation into the ecosystem of libraries, firewalls, routers, load balancers, e=
tc that are the strongest reason to base applications on http.</div><div>&nb=
sp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"over=
flow-wrap: break-word;"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div>I'm also a little concerned about the thinking in the other protoc=
ols discussion - http the protocol carries a variety of schemes beyond http:=
// and https:// and that probably needs to be explored.</div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Could you provide an example?&nbsp; I'm aware t=
hat there are many other URI schemes (ldap, mailto, etc.), but they are not H=
TTP.&nbsp; Are you saying there are some URI schemes (e.g., "myhttp:") that a=
re like an application-layer protocol on top of HTTP? &nbsp; Or do you mean t=
hat HTTP may have different transport bindings besides TCP and TLS? &nbsp;&n=
bsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>ftp:// ws:// wss:// a=
re the most common schemes carried on http other than http:// and https://. b=
ut the protocol is can carry most of what you can structure as a URI and con=
tent.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Which brings me to my question a=
bout what HTTP implementations might want to co-author. That wasn't meant as=
 some kind of Not-Invented-Here comment.. rather it was trying to see if we a=
re solving an interop problem or engaging in hope based standardization. HTT=
Pbis tries hard to pursue work that enables interoperation between at least 2=
 parties that wish to interoperate and that at least some part of that group=
 of implementations is driving the standard. I'm having trouble figuring out=
 who those HTTP parties are here and I'm cautious about proceeding without t=
hat.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As mentioned be=
fore, this work began as an effort to define the configuration models for RE=
STCONF clients and servers.&nbsp; The desire to have a *standards-based* way=
 to do this is especially supported when thinking about deploying networks o=
f heterogeneous devices to perform zerotouch bootstrapping (think autonomic n=
etworking). &nbsp;</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>then perhaps a restconf yang model is what you are defining?</div><d=
iv>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div></div><div><br></div><div>With regard=
s to the HTTP configuration model, it's not so much *if* there will be an HT=
TP model, but to what extent you (your WG) would like to or demand to be par=
t of the effort to define it. &nbsp; As the HTTP domain experts, and we bein=
g the YANG experts, the ideal scenario is for us to strike a collaboration. &=
nbsp; In particular, given that we're trying to put an end to this nearly 5-=
year long effort, we politely request that you give us the blessing to proce=
ed roughly as planned (i.e., defining a minimal skeleton with as many "featu=
re" statements as needed). &nbsp; We envision this as a very short engagemen=
t (Last Call immediately after Montreal), after which the HTTP model would l=
ikely only be touched again when needed.&nbsp; If history is a guide, I'd gu=
ess that might not happen for 3-5 years.</div><div><br></div><div>Would a co=
llaboration be okay?&nbsp; If yes, then is there someone in particular that I=
 (as a contributor/author) can buddy up with in HTTPBIS to get expert-level a=
dvice?</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This=
 puts us in a tough spot. The -00 draft does not do a good job of describing=
 HTTP so I don't feel we can endorse it. The working group has an extensive s=
et of adopted drafts right now and I don't believe it is the right priority t=
o put this in front of them too in order to put the work in to make it appro=
priately expressive - it would distract from the priorities the group has de=
cided on.</div><div><br></div><div>What do you think of recasting this as a m=
odel limited to restconf based applications?</div><div><br></div><div>-Patri=
ck</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span style=3D"backgro=
und-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Mahesh Jethanandani</span><div><span sty=
le=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanan=
dani@gmail.com">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a></span></div><div><span style=3D"=
background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
<br></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 17:38:28 +0200
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On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 4:33 PM Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:

>
> I don't think this is correct.  In what way do you think RESTCONF
> tries to use HTTP as a stateful transport?
>
>
below


>
> > >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:44 PM Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
>
> > >> Actually, "managing persistence" is exactly what we're trying to
> > >> achieve here.  Our show-stopping driving use-case regards RESTCONF
> > >> Call Home (RFC 8071) and, in particular, point "S7" on page 8 of that
> > >> document, without which a remote device may become a "brick" and
> > >> require a technician to perform on-site repair.
>

also, in an exchange that wasn't copied to the wg,:

> To give a concrete example, there may be a device, deployed behind a NAT,
requiring a persistent management connection to its controller
application.  Because the device is behind a NAT, it MUST initiate the
connection (the controller cannot) and, thus the device MUST ensure
aliveness of the connection to the controller (the controller *needs* the
device-initiated connection to be up in order to send commands to the
device).   In case the controller disappears, perhaps due to its
data-center being hit by a meteor, the device must promptly detect to loss
and initiate reconnection to another controller.



>

--0000000000001389980585b62a70
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 4:33 PM Martin=
 Bjorklund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I don&#39;t think this is correct.=C2=A0 In what way do you think RESTCONF<=
br>
tries to use HTTP as a stateful transport?<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>below</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:44 PM Kent Watsen &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:kent%2Bietf@watsen.net" target=3D"_blank">kent+ietf@watsen.net</a>&gt;<=
br><br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Actually, &quot;managing persistence&quot; is exactly what we=
&#39;re trying to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; achieve here.=C2=A0 Our show-stopping driving use-case regard=
s RESTCONF<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Call Home (RFC 8071) and, in particular, point &quot;S7&quot;=
 on page 8 of that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; document, without which a remote device may become a &quot;br=
ick&quot; and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; require a technician to perform on-site repair.<br></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>also, in an exchange that wasn&#39;t copied to the w=
g,:</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; To give a concrete example, there may be =
a device, deployed behind a NAT, requiring a persistent management connecti=
on to its controller application.=C2=A0 Because the device is behind a NAT,=
 it MUST initiate the connection (the controller cannot) and, thus the devi=
ce MUST ensure aliveness of the connection to the controller (the controlle=
r *needs* the device-initiated connection to be up in order to send command=
s to the device). =C2=A0 In case the controller disappears, perhaps due to =
its data-center being hit by a meteor, the device must promptly detect to l=
oss and initiate reconnection to another controller.</div><span class=3D"gm=
ail-im" style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)"><br class=3D"gmail-Apple-interchange-n=
ewline"></span><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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>> and the creation of a private key that becomes (protected)
>> configuration is similar to the creation of a user account, where an
>> unused uid is allocated that becomes configuration.
> 
> AFAIK there is no standard model defined that actually do this.

Mostly true, though one might claim that <edit-config> is an example 
of an RPC that modifies configuration.


> The closest thing we have is the "type" of an interface:
> 
>           When an interface entry is created, a server MAY
>           initialize the type leaf with a valid value, e.g., if it
>           is possible to derive the type from the name of the
>           interface.
> 
> If private keys are handled like this, then I can accept it.  

This is not what is being asked for here.


> But we
> should NOT introduce special actions/rpcs that manipulate the
> configuration.


Why not?  Not that it's a valid justification, but vendors do it already.
What would it take to make it be not "special"?   Would adding a
standard (yang-next?) "modifies-configuration" leaf to the action/rpc
definition suffice?

FWIW, I do agree with Balazs, and argued as much a couple years
ago, that the current approach is not best practice.  That said, I'm
more interested in the general-purpose use of rpcs/actions this way.

We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are the
specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?


Kent // contributor



--Apple-Mail=_66F9B161-BC13-4EDA-ABF7-1A2A87CAA7BC
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">and the =
creation of a private key that becomes (protected)<br =
class=3D"">configuration is similar to the creation of a user account, =
where an<br class=3D"">unused uid is allocated that becomes =
configuration.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">AFAIK there is =
no standard model defined that actually do this.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Mostly =
true, though one might claim that &lt;edit-config&gt; is an =
example&nbsp;</div><div>of an RPC that modifies =
configuration.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The closest =
thing we have is the "type" of an interface:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When an =
interface entry is created, a server MAY<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;initialize =
the type leaf with a valid value, e.g., if it<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;is possible =
to derive the type from the name of the<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;interface.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If private keys are handled like this, then I =
can accept it. &nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This is not what is being asked for =
here.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">But we<br =
class=3D"">should NOT introduce special actions/rpcs that manipulate =
the<br class=3D"">configuration.</div></div></blockquote></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Why not? &nbsp;Not that it's a valid =
justification, but vendors do it already.</div><div>What would it take =
to make it be not "special"? &nbsp; Would adding a</div><div>standard =
(yang-next?) "modifies-configuration" leaf to the =
action/rpc</div><div>definition suffice?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>FWIW, I do agree with Balazs, and argued as much a =
couple years</div><div>ago, that the current approach is not best =
practice. &nbsp;That said, I'm</div><div>more interested in the =
general-purpose use of rpcs/actions this way.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>We have always said no, but the reasoning is =
unclear. &nbsp;What are the</div><div>specific objections and is there =
anyway to alleviate them?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Kent // contributor</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_66F9B161-BC13-4EDA-ABF7-1A2A87CAA7BC--


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To: Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>
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On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 05:38:28PM +0200, Patrick McManus wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 4:33 PM Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I don't think this is correct.  In what way do you think RESTCONF
> > tries to use HTTP as a stateful transport?

[...]

> To give a concrete example, there may be a device, deployed behind a NAT,
> requiring a persistent management connection to its controller
> application.  Because the device is behind a NAT, it MUST initiate the
> connection (the controller cannot) and, thus the device MUST ensure
> aliveness of the connection to the controller (the controller *needs* the
> device-initiated connection to be up in order to send commands to the
> device).   In case the controller disappears, perhaps due to its
> data-center being hit by a meteor, the device must promptly detect to loss
> and initiate reconnection to another controller.

The issue here seems to be a NAT requiring state, not the RESTCONF
protocol itself requiring state.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> 
> 
> We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are the
> specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?
>

If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
(or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
generic implementations.

Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with special
purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic client
libraries.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Hi Kent,

Inline with [RW]

From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
Sent: 04 April 2019 17:23
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden




and the creation of a private key that becomes (protected)
configuration is similar to the creation of a user account, where an
unused uid is allocated that becomes configuration.

AFAIK there is no standard model defined that actually do this.

Mostly true, though one might claim that <edit-config> is an example
of an RPC that modifies configuration.

[RW]
But in this case, the updated configuration is provided by the client, not =
the server.  I.e. it is clear which entity owns the configuration, and is t=
he "source of truth".


The closest thing we have is the "type" of an interface:

          When an interface entry is created, a server MAY
          initialize the type leaf with a valid value, e.g., if it
          is possible to derive the type from the name of the
          interface.

If private keys are handled like this, then I can accept it.

This is not what is being asked for here.



But we
should NOT introduce special actions/rpcs that manipulate the
configuration.

Why not?  Not that it's a valid justification, but vendors do it already.
What would it take to make it be not "special"?   Would adding a
standard (yang-next?) "modifies-configuration" leaf to the action/rpc
definition suffice?

FWIW, I do agree with Balazs, and argued as much a couple years
ago, that the current approach is not best practice.  That said, I'm
more interested in the general-purpose use of rpcs/actions this way.

We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are the
specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?

[RW]
I think that is bad practice for a server to inject configuration into <run=
ning>.  It makes it ambiguous as to which entity really owns the configurat=
ion.   I think that what is in <running> should be owned by the client, not=
 the server.  I'm not saying that nobody does this, but I don't believe tha=
t it is the cleanest solution.

I'm OK with a server injecting configuration between <running> and <intende=
d>, and using NACM to prevent that value from being read back from <intende=
d>.

I'm OK with the server just reporting the default system allocated value in=
 <operational>, again protected by NACM if appropriate.

Thanks,
Rob



Kent // contributor



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<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Kent,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Inline wit=
h [RW]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> =
netconf &lt;netconf-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Watsen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 April 2019 17:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Martin Bjorklund &lt;mbj@tail-f.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> netconf@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and the creation of a private key that becomes (prot=
ected)<br>
configuration is similar to the creation of a user account, where an<br>
unused uid is allocated that becomes configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
AFAIK there is no standard model defined that actually do this.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mostly true, though one might claim that &lt;edit-co=
nfig&gt; is an example&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">of an RPC that modifies configuration.<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[RW]
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But in this case, the updated c=
onfiguration is provided by the client, not the server.&nbsp; I.e. it is cl=
ear which entity owns the configuration, and is the
 &#8220;source of truth&#8221;.</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The closest thing we have is the &quot;type&quot; of=
 an interface:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When an interfa=
ce entry is created, a server MAY<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;initialize the =
type leaf with a valid value, e.g., if it<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;is possible to =
derive the type from the name of the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;interface.<br>
<br>
If private keys are handled like this, then I can accept it. &nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is not what is being asked for here.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But we<br>
should NOT introduce special actions/rpcs that manipulate the<br>
configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Why not? &nbsp;Not that it's a valid justification, =
but vendors do it already.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What would it take to make it be not &quot;special&q=
uot;? &nbsp; Would adding a<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">standard (yang-next?) &quot;modifies-configuration&q=
uot; leaf to the action/rpc<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">definition suffice?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">FWIW, I do agree with Balazs, and argued as much a c=
ouple years<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ago, that the current approach is not best practice.=
 &nbsp;That said, I'm<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">more interested in the general-purpose use of rpcs/a=
ctions this way.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear=
. &nbsp;What are the<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate=
 them?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[RW]
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I think that is bad practice fo=
r a server to inject configuration into &lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; It makes it =
ambiguous as to which entity really owns the configuration.&nbsp;
 &nbsp;I think that what is in &lt;running&gt; should be owned by the clien=
t, not the server.&nbsp; I&#8217;m not saying that nobody does this, but I =
don&#8217;t believe that it is the cleanest solution.<o:p></o:p></span></i>=
</b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m OK with a server inje=
cting configuration between &lt;running&gt; and &lt;intended&gt;, and using=
 NACM to prevent that value from being read back from &lt;intended&gt;.<o:p=
></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I&#8217;m OK with the server ju=
st reporting the default system allocated value in &lt;operational&gt;, aga=
in protected by NACM if appropriate.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<br>
Rob<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kent // contributor<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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To: Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] time to meet today after 5pm
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> I don't think this is correct.  In what way do you think RESTCONF
> tries to use HTTP as a stateful transport?
>=20
>=20
> below
> =20
>=20
> > >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:44 PM Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net =
<mailto:kent%2Bietf@watsen.net>>
>=20
> > >> Actually, "managing persistence" is exactly what we're trying to
> > >> achieve here.  Our show-stopping driving use-case regards =
RESTCONF
> > >> Call Home (RFC 8071) and, in particular, point "S7" on page 8 of =
that
> > >> document, without which a remote device may become a "brick" and
> > >> require a technician to perform on-site repair.
>=20
> also, in an exchange that wasn't copied to the wg,:
>=20
> > To give a concrete example, there may be a device, deployed behind a =
NAT, requiring a persistent management connection to its controller =
application.  Because the device is behind a NAT, it MUST initiate the =
connection (the controller cannot) and, thus the device MUST ensure =
aliveness of the connection to the controller (the controller *needs* =
the device-initiated connection to be up in order to send commands to =
the device).   In case the controller disappears, perhaps due to its =
data-center being hit by a meteor, the device must promptly detect to =
loss and initiate reconnection to another controller.


To be clear, RESTCONF is not trying to use HTTP as a stateful protocol, =
but it is ideal to try to keep RESTCONF Call Home connections up, as =
described above.   Per the "S7" reference, devices SHOULD use RFC 6520 =
(the TLS heartbeat extension).   This would keep the *stateful* =
transport (TLS) up but, unfortunately, OpenSSL doesn't want to implement =
it (worst, they just removed the DTLS code, =
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/4856 =
<https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/4856>, despite Ben Kaduk and =
myself stating value).

The thinking behind this thread is that maybe some traffic could run on =
top of TLS (i.e., at the HTTP layer), to do the same and, if not, then =
maybe we could do it at the RESTCONF layer.  [FWIW, you might recall =
NETCONF/RESTCONF keepalives discusseded at the IETF 103 meeting.]

Patrick, if HTTP keepalive is not possible, then lets strike the =
"keepalive" parts from the ietf-http-client and ietf-http-server models, =
leaving it to implementations to lean more heavily on their TLS =
suppliers to implement RFC 6520, or fallback to unprotected TCP =
keepalives (which is what the BBF/Nokia said they would be doing for =
expediency).  Regarding the rest, let me clean the remaining bits (i.e., =
post a -01) and present them to you again then.

For everyone else, this email thread is from last week when Mahesh and I =
were trying to meet with the HTTPBIS chairs to discuss the =
http-client-server draft under adoption poll.  We wanted to proactively =
engage HTTPBIS rather than have any surprises, such as the exchange with =
TCPM.   Our hope is that we can come to an agreement, like the one =
struck with TCPM, whereby domain experts in each WG co-author a =
bare-minimum grouping that enables our 5-year chartered work effort to =
come to an end.  With regards to Last Call, we can do it joint Last =
Call, if desired.   For longterm maintenance of the YANG model, we're =
happy to turn it over to the domain-specific WG, though we don't have =
any need or expectation for an update, the bare-minimum is sufficient.

Kent // pick a hat




--Apple-Mail=_B1714681-2C8F-47AC-B660-D84677E432D8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I don't think this is correct.&nbsp; =
In what way do you think RESTCONF<br class=3D"">
tries to use HTTP as a stateful transport?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">below</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br class=3D"">
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 6:44 PM Kent Watsen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kent%2Bietf@watsen.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">kent+ietf@watsen.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">
&gt; &gt;&gt; Actually, "managing persistence" is exactly what we're =
trying to<br class=3D"">
&gt; &gt;&gt; achieve here.&nbsp; Our show-stopping driving use-case =
regards RESTCONF<br class=3D"">
&gt; &gt;&gt; Call Home (RFC 8071) and, in particular, point "S7" on =
page 8 of that<br class=3D"">
&gt; &gt;&gt; document, without which a remote device may become a =
"brick" and<br class=3D"">
&gt; &gt;&gt; require a technician to perform on-site repair.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">also, in an exchange that wasn't copied to the wg,:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&gt; To give a concrete =
example, there may be a device, deployed behind a NAT, requiring a =
persistent management connection to its controller application.&nbsp; =
Because the device is behind a NAT, it MUST initiate the connection (the =
controller cannot) and, thus the device MUST ensure aliveness of the =
connection to the controller (the controller *needs* the =
device-initiated connection to be up in order to send commands to the =
device). &nbsp; In case the controller disappears, perhaps due to its =
data-center being hit by a meteor, the device must promptly detect to =
loss and initiate reconnection to another =
controller.</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To be clear, RESTCONF is =
not trying to use HTTP as a stateful protocol, but it is ideal to try to =
keep RESTCONF Call Home connections up, as described above. &nbsp; Per =
the "S7" reference, devices SHOULD use RFC 6520 (the TLS&nbsp;heartbeat =
extension). &nbsp; This would keep the *stateful* transport (TLS) up =
but, unfortunately, OpenSSL doesn't want to implement it (worst, they =
just removed the DTLS code,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/4856" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/openssl/openssl/issues/4856</a>, despite =
Ben Kaduk and myself stating value).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The thinking behind this thread is that =
maybe some traffic could run on top of TLS (i.e., at the HTTP layer), to =
do the same and, if not, then maybe we could do it at the RESTCONF =
layer. &nbsp;[FWIW, you might recall NETCONF/RESTCONF keepalives =
discusseded at the IETF 103 meeting.]</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Patrick, if HTTP keepalive is not =
possible, then lets strike the "keepalive" parts from the =
ietf-http-client and ietf-http-server models, leaving it to =
implementations to lean more heavily on their TLS suppliers to implement =
RFC 6520, or fallback to unprotected TCP keepalives (which is what the =
BBF/Nokia said they would be doing for expediency). &nbsp;Regarding the =
rest, let me clean the remaining bits (i.e., post a -01) and present =
them to you again then.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">For everyone else, this email thread is from last week when =
Mahesh and I were trying to meet with the HTTPBIS chairs to discuss the =
http-client-server draft under adoption poll. &nbsp;We wanted to =
proactively engage HTTPBIS rather than have any surprises, such as the =
exchange with TCPM. &nbsp; Our hope is that we can come to an agreement, =
like the one struck with TCPM, whereby domain experts in each WG =
co-author a bare-minimum grouping that enables our 5-year chartered work =
effort to come to an end. &nbsp;With regards to Last Call, we can do it =
joint Last Call, if desired. &nbsp; For longterm maintenance of the YANG =
model, we're happy to turn it over to the domain-specific WG, though we =
don't have any need or expectation for an update, the bare-minimum is =
sufficient.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent=
 // pick a hat</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
References: <VI1PR07MB47351FF76BBF6C56AC6E64B5835E0@VI1PR07MB4735.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <01000169cb20ec39-94187bed-9312-4e19-a91f-466db763ee7e-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190329205316.tcjzicuythyd4gvm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20190403.134424.1377386644961079970.mbj@tail-f.com> <01000169e929781e-b0dcb6b3-af41-4f9c-ba52-ac4afb7164d4-000000@email.amazonses.com> <a668ce8a370049769a82eb1250f139e3@XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com>
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> [RW]
> I think that is bad practice for a server to inject configuration into =
<running>.  It makes it ambiguous as to which entity really owns the =
configuration.   I think that what is in <running> should be owned by =
the client, not the server.  I=E2=80=99m not saying that nobody does =
this, but I don=E2=80=99t believe that it is the cleanest solution.
>=20

We're not talking about the server doing something on its own accord =
here; this would be a direct result of a client request.  Abstractly, =
such can be considered configuration as legitimate as configuration =
provided by any other means.

Kent // contributor





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lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D""><div =
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1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt" class=3D""><div class=3D""><b class=3D"" =
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12pt;"><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">[RW]</span></i></b><br class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:#1F497D" class=3D"">I think that is bad practice for a server to inject =
configuration into &lt;running&gt;.&nbsp; It makes it ambiguous as to =
which entity really owns the configuration.&nbsp;
 &nbsp;I think that what is in &lt;running&gt; should be owned by the =
client, not the server.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m not saying that nobody does =
this, but I don=E2=80=99t believe that it is the cleanest =
solution.</span></i></b></p><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>We're not talking about the server doing something =
on its own accord here; this would be a direct result of a client =
request. &nbsp;Abstractly, such can be considered configuration as =
legitimate as configuration provided by any other means.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Kent // contributor</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><style class=3D""><!--
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
References: <VI1PR07MB47351FF76BBF6C56AC6E64B5835E0@VI1PR07MB4735.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <01000169cb20ec39-94187bed-9312-4e19-a91f-466db763ee7e-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190329205316.tcjzicuythyd4gvm@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20190403.134424.1377386644961079970.mbj@tail-f.com> <01000169e929781e-b0dcb6b3-af41-4f9c-ba52-ac4afb7164d4-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190404164929.fsfga7s4izn7ucx5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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>> We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are the
>> specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?
>> 
> 
> If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
> (or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
> generic implementations.
> 
> Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with special
> purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic client
> libraries.

Fair, so what can we do to ensure this doesn't spiral out of control?

Clearly there is some line being crossed here (a Security best practice)
that is driving this.   Could we add that such use MUST only be done in 
order to resolve a Security best practice?

That said, I think your fear is unwarranted.  I do not believe that folks
would rush to defined 1000s of RPCs.   It seems that such use would
be done only in extenuating circumstances.

And, besides, so what?  Why do we care if people do stupid things?
Do we feel that our obligation to prevent people from doing stupid
things is more important than enabling people to do smart things?

Kent


--Apple-Mail=_42BBDE71-24DE-4B4B-AEA9-78100B02031F
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">We have =
always said no, but the reasoning is unclear. &nbsp;What are the<br =
class=3D"">specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">If editing of all =
configuration can be done with a single edit-data<br class=3D"">(or =
edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable<br =
class=3D"">generic implementations.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Once =
you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with special<br =
class=3D"">purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic =
client<br class=3D"">libraries.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Fair, so what can we do to ensure this doesn't spiral out of =
control?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Clearly=
 there is some line being crossed here (a Security best =
practice)</div><div class=3D"">that is driving this. &nbsp; Could we add =
that such use MUST only be done in&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">order to =
resolve a Security best practice?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That said, I think your fear is =
unwarranted. &nbsp;I do not believe that folks</div><div class=3D"">would =
rush to defined 1000s of RPCs. &nbsp; It seems that such use =
would</div><div class=3D"">be done only in extenuating =
circumstances.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And, besides, so what? &nbsp;Why do we care if people do =
stupid things?</div><div class=3D"">Do we feel that our obligation to =
prevent people from doing stupid</div><div class=3D"">things is more =
important than enabling people to do smart things?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_42BBDE71-24DE-4B4B-AEA9-78100B02031F--


From nobody Thu Apr  4 10:46:30 2019
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To: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are the
> > specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?
> >
> 
> If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
> (or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
> generic implementations.
> 
> Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with special
> purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic client
> libraries.

And you can no longer create all required config in one transaction;
you have to split it into sending multiple special-purpose actions.
Perhaps also in a certain order, that you have to figure out somehow,
since config might have refererences to other partf of the config
etc.

You can no longer restore a backup with just a copy-config.

So I don't think the reasoning is unclear at all.


/martin


From nobody Thu Apr  4 11:21:41 2019
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
References: <20190403.134424.1377386644961079970.mbj@tail-f.com> <01000169e929781e-b0dcb6b3-af41-4f9c-ba52-ac4afb7164d4-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190404164929.fsfga7s4izn7ucx5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20190404.194623.1178346313710501110.mbj@tail-f.com>
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> On Apr 4, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:
> 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are the
>>> specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?
>>> 
>> 
>> If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
>> (or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
>> generic implementations.
>> 
>> Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with special
>> purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic client
>> libraries.
> 
> And you can no longer create all required config in one transaction;
> you have to split it into sending multiple special-purpose actions.
> Perhaps also in a certain order, that you have to figure out somehow,
> since config might have refererences to other partf of the config
> etc.
> 
> You can no longer restore a backup with just a copy-config.
> 
> So I don't think the reasoning is unclear at all.


This is a good start to a list of limitations that could be added to
a description statement.  Let people decide.  In this case, not a 
big deal.

Kent // contributor


 
--Apple-Mail=_1265E9FB-671B-4055-972E-AFF176A56699
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 4, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Martin Bjorklund &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" class=3D"">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at =
04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">We have always =
said no, but the reasoning is unclear. &nbsp;What are the<br =
class=3D"">specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">If editing of all =
configuration can be done with a single edit-data<br class=3D"">(or =
edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable<br =
class=3D"">generic implementations.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Once =
you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with special<br =
class=3D"">purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic =
client<br class=3D"">libraries.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">And you can no longer create all required config in one =
transaction;<br class=3D"">you have to split it into sending multiple =
special-purpose actions.<br class=3D"">Perhaps also in a certain order, =
that you have to figure out somehow,<br class=3D"">since config might =
have refererences to other partf of the config<br class=3D"">etc.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">You can no longer restore a backup with just a =
copy-config.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So I don't think the reasoning =
is unclear at all.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is =
a good start to a list of limitations that could be added to</div><div =
class=3D"">a description statement. &nbsp;Let people decide. &nbsp;In =
this case, not a&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">big deal.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent // =
contributor</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Apr  5 02:12:56 2019
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From: <jonathan@hansfords.net>
To: "'Per Hedeland'" <per@hedeland.org>, "'Martin Bjorklund'" <mbj@tail-f.com>
Cc: <mferguson@amsl.com>, <bclaise@cisco.com>, <rob.enns@gmail.com>, <iesg@ietf.org>, <netconf@ietf.org>, <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, "'Juergen Schoenwaelder'" <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "'Andy Bierman'" <andy@yumaworks.com>, "'Robert Wilton'" <rwilton@cisco.com>
References: <20140113155326.2E4B97FC396@rfc-editor.org> <74C3A7F7-B338-4B9F-AD61-66F39EA43FC9@amsl.com> <34e64e9f-f3a0-9c4f-9860-e69e120e926c@hedeland.org> <20190221.142233.540619960445664842.mbj@tail-f.com> <fbc906bc-f003-417a-1113-0c4d6f213841@hedeland.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/NbQgeElc5fuGjw4VQncntfJtDu0>
Subject: Re: [netconf] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC6241 (3821)
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Hi,

Apologies for taking so long to reply. I have been out of the loop for some=

time. And apologies for not involving the mailing list. The RFC Errata page=

states, "Note: To report an error in an existing erratum, please contact th=
e
RFC Editor", so that is what I did. Maybe the note could be a bit more
informative for those not au fait with all the correct procedures to follow=

within the IETF.

Further, I concur only the <persist> parameter affects persistence, and not=

the <persist-id> parameter. Apologies again.

I am trying to understand the correct behaviour of clients and servers with=

persistent confirmed commits, and in particular the persistence of locks an=
d
configuration changes following a session termination. The reason is that I=

have dealt with some elements that always restart when their configuration
changes, and I want to understand what is and isn't possible in that
scenario with NETCONF (RFC 6241). It would be helpful if someone could
confirm (or otherwise) my thoughts below. We intend to support :candidate
but not :writable-running.

THE PERSISTENCE OF A CONFIRMED COMMIT FOLLOWING SESSION TERMINATION

Section 8.3.5.2 :candidate <lock> and <unlock> states:

    When a client fails with outstanding changes to the candidate
    configuration, recovery can be difficult.  To facilitate easy
    recovery, any outstanding changes are discarded when the lock is
    released, whether explicitly with the <unlock> operation or
    implicitly from session failure.

Section 8.4.1 :confirmed-commit states:

    If the session issuing the confirmed commit is terminated for any
    reason before the confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore
    the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit was
    issued, unless the confirmed commit also included a <persist>
    element.

    If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
    expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state
    before the confirmed commit was issued.

The first paragraph from Section 8.4.1 mentions a corner case not covered i=
n
Section 8.3.5.2. Assuming the description of that corner case to be correct=
,
it would be useful if an Erratum was raised on Section 8.3.5.2 to also
mention the corner case (see below).

The second paragraph from Section 8.4.1 makes it clear a device reboot will=

revert the server to the configuration before the start of the confirmed
commit. So, on reboot, the device needs to determine whether a confirmed
commit was ongoing and, if it was, ignore both <startup> (if supported) and=

<running>, and revert <running>. So if there is any device that reboots whe=
n
its configuration changes, persistent confirmed commits WILL NOT survive th=
e
reboot and, if :writable-running is not supported, a standard <commit>
should be used instead. For all other causes of session termination, a
persistent confirmed commit WILL persist.

THE PERSISTENCE OF LOCKS FOLLOWING SESSION TERMINATION

Section 7.5 <lock> states:
    A lock MUST NOT be granted if any of the following conditions is
    true:

    *  A lock is already held by any NETCONF session or another
       entity.

    *  The target configuration is <candidate>, it has already been
       modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled
       back.

    *  The target configuration is <running>, and another NETCONF
       session has an ongoing confirmed commit (Section 8.4).

    The server MUST respond with either an <ok> element or an
    <rpc-error>.

    A lock will be released by the system if the session holding the
    lock is terminated for any reason.

In the netconf WG email thread "[Netconf] Is there a problem with confirmed=

commits?", I summarised my understanding of the above as, "it seems the
persist-id can be considered a de facto lock on both <candidate> and
<running> that is released on a confirming <commit>, a timeout on the
confirmed <commit> or a <cancel-commit>. Unlike other locks, this "lock"
could be shared between clients by sharing the persist-id." However, on
further examination it appears the lock on <candidate> will not persist if
the session terminates after a confirmed commit but before the confirming
commit, as all the changes currently in <candidate> will have been
committed. So is the intention for <candidate> to be not lockable for the
same duration as <running> during a confirmed commit? If so, it would be
useful if an Erratum was raised on Section 7.5 to clarify (see below).
However, since <edit-config> and <copy-config> operations with <candidate>
as the target cannot include the persist-id, there is no way for any sessio=
n
to update <candidate> during a persistent confirmed commit following sessio=
n
termination.

SOME OTHER CLARIFICATIONS SOUGHT

Section 7.5 <lock> states:

    If the lock is already held, the <error-tag> element will be 
    "lock-denied" and the <error-info> element will include the 
    <session-id> of the lock owner.  If the lock is held by a non- 
    NETCONF entity, a <session-id> of 0 (zero) is included.  Note that
    any other entity performing a lock on even a partial piece of a 
    target will prevent a NETCONF lock (which is global) from being 
    obtained on that target.

How should the error be reported if the lock is an implicit lock due to a
persistent confirmed commit that has survived session termination? I have
proposed a couple of alternatives as Errata below.

Section 8.4.4.1 <cancel-commit> states:
    Cancels an ongoing confirmed commit.  If the <persist-id>
    parameter is not given, the <cancel-commit> operation MUST be
    issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit.

With a persistent confirmed commit, does a <cancel-commit> issues on the
same session that issued the confirmed commit require the <persist-id>
parameter?

FINAL THOUGHTS

In Section 7.5 <lock> it states:
    When the lock is acquired, the server MUST prevent any changes to
    the locked resource other than those requested by this session.
    SNMP and CLI requests to modify the resource MUST fail with an
    appropriate error.

It seems to me this is the same behaviour the server should exhibit with an=

ongoing confirmed commit (except, maybe, wrt <candidate>). If that is the
case, it would be useful if an Erratum was raised on Section 8.4.1 to
clarify (see below).

PROPOSED ERRATA

Sections 7.5, 8.3.5.2 and 8.4.1

In Section 7.5:

OLD:
    When the lock is acquired, the server MUST prevent any changes to
    the locked resource other than those requested by this session.
    SNMP and CLI requests to modify the resource MUST fail with an
    appropriate error.

    :

    A lock MUST NOT be granted if any of the following conditions is
    true:
    *  A lock is already held by any NETCONF session or another
       entity.

    *  The target configuration is <candidate>, it has already been 
       modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled
       back. 

    :

    If the lock is already held, the <error-tag> element will be 
    "lock-denied" and the <error-info> element will include the 
    <session-id> of the lock owner.  If the lock is held by a non- 
    NETCONF entity, a <session-id> of 0 (zero) is included.  Note that
    any other entity performing a lock on even a partial piece of a 
    target will prevent a NETCONF lock (which is global) from being 
    obtained on that target.
 
In Section 8.3.5.2:

OLD:
    When a client fails with outstanding changes to the candidate
    configuration, recovery can be difficult.  To facilitate easy
    recovery, any outstanding changes are discarded when the lock is
    released, whether explicitly with the <unlock> operation or
    implicitly from session failure.

In Section 8.4.1:

OLD:
    If the session issuing the confirmed commit is terminated for any
    reason before the confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore
    the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit was
    issued, unless the confirmed commit also included a <persist>
    element.

It should say:

In Section 7.5:

NEW:
    When the lock is acquired, the server MUST prevent any changes to
    the locked resource other than those requested by this session.
    SNMP and CLI requests to modify the resource MUST fail with an
    appropriate error.

    :
    A lock MUST NOT be granted if any of the following conditions is
    true:
    *  A lock is already held by any NETCONF session or another
       entity.

    *  The target configuration is <candidate>, it has already been
       modified, and these changes have not been committed or rolled
       back, or another NETCONF session has an ongoing confirmed
       commit (Section 8.4).

    :

EITHER

    If the lock is already held, or another NETCONF session has an 
    ongoing confirmed commit (Section 8.4), the <error-tag> element
    will be "lock-denied" and the <error-info> element will include
    the <session-id> of the lock owner.  If the lock is held by a non-
    NETCONF entity, a <session-id> of 0 (zero) is included.  Note that
    any other entity performing a lock on even a partial piece of a
    target will prevent a NETCONF lock (which is global) from being
    obtained on that target. 
                                                                 
OR
                                                                 
    If the lock is already held, the <error-tag> element will be
    "lock-denied" and the <error-info> element will include the
    <session-id> of the lock owner.  If the lock is held by a non-
    NETCONF entity, or another NETCONF session has an ongoing
    confirmed commit (Section 8.4), a <session-id> of 0 (zero) is
    included.  Note that any other entity performing a lock on even a
    partial piece of a target will prevent a NETCONF lock (which is
    global) from being obtained on that target.

In Section 8.3.5.2:

NEW:
    Except in the case of a persistent confirmed commit (Section 
    8.4.5.1), when a client fails with outstanding changes to the 
    candidate configuration, recovery can be difficult.  To facilitate
    easy recovery, any outstanding changes are discarded when the lock
    is released, whether explicitly with the <unlock> operation or
    implicitly from session failure.

In Section 8.4.1:

NEW: 
    If the session issuing the confirmed commit is terminated for any
    reason before the confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore
    the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit was
    issued, unless the confirmed commit also included a <persist>
    element.

    With an ongoing persistent confirmed commit, the server MUST
    prevent any changes to the candidate configuration datastore
    following session termination, and MUST prevent any changes to
    the running configuration datastore other than by a session
    using the <persist-id> parameter. SNMP and CLI requests to
    modify either resource MUST fail with an appropriate error.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Per Hedeland <per@hedeland.org> 
Sent: 21 February 2019 13:48
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Cc: mferguson@amsl.com; jonathan@hansfords.net; bclaise@cisco.com;
rob.enns@gmail.com; iesg@ietf.org; netconf@ietf.org;
rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
Subject: Re: [netconf] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC6241 (3821)

On 2019-02-21 14:22, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Per Hedeland <per@hedeland.org> wrote:
>> On 2019-02-20 01:44, Megan Ferguson wrote:
>>> Jonathan and Benoit,
>>> We have edited the "corrected text in this errata report as 
>>> suggested by Jonathan.
>>
>> I don't know if this change - i.e. the addition of the text "or 
>> <persist-id>" in two places - should affect the status of the 
>> document, but it seems to me that it can then no longer be considered 
>> a "clarification", since it proposes a change to the semantics 
>> specified in RFC 6241. As far as I can see, it is clear from 6241 
>> that the presence of the <persist-id> parameter does not affect the 
>> persistence, only the presence of the <persist> parameter does that.
> 
> Hmm, I missed this detail.
> 
> It is clearly not correct to say that the <persist-id> affects
> persistence.   So s/or <persist-id>// in the 4th and 5th paragraphs.

Hm, right, the remainder of the change to the 5th paragraph should be kept
(I originally misread it as *only* adding "or <persist-id>" there too).

> Do you see any other issues with the proposed text?

No, it seems fine - a useful clarification.

> (An editorial change - the 4th para should be split into two, just as 
> in the original text)

+1

--Per

> /martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> Furthermore, I'm afraid I fail to find any motivation for this change 
>> in the quoted message from Jonathan (as far as I can see, this 
>> message was not sent to the mailing list).
>>
>> --Per Hedeland
>>
>>> We have left the status of this report as Held for Document 
>>> Update.
>>> Please let us know if any further action is necessary on our part.
>>> The report itself is viewable at
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid3821.
>>> Old (as in Jonathans original report):
>>> If the session issuing a sequence of one or more confirmed commits 
>>> is terminated for any reason before the confirm timeout expires, the 
>>> server MUST restore the configuration to its state before the 
>>> sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the last confirmed 
>>> commit also included a <persist> element.
>>> If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout 
>>> expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state 
>>> before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.
>>> New (as updated by Jonathans email - see the last line of both
>>> paragraphs):
>>> If the session issuing a sequence of one or more confirmed commits 
>>> is terminated for any reason before the confirm timeout expires, the 
>>> server MUST restore the configuration to its state before the 
>>> sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the last confirmed 
>>> commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id> element.
>>> If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout 
>>> expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state 
>>> before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the last 
>>> confirmed commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id> element.
>>> Thank you.
>>> RFC Editor/mf
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>    I raised erratum 3821 to clarify the meaning of the term "confirmed=

>>>>    commit" for those not familiar with the use of the term within
>>>>    JUNOS. Both the original text and the erratum include text that
states
>>>>    If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
>>>>    expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state
before
>>>>    the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.. I have since
>>>>    discovered the description of the persist leaf on page 102 that
>>>>    includes the statement, A persistent confirmed commit is not
aborted
>>>>    if the NETCONF session terminates.  The only way to abort a
persistent
>>>>    confirmed commit is to let the timer expire, or to use the
>>>>    <cancel-commit> operation. Consequently, the replacement text
should
>>>>    read:
>>>>    8.4.1.  Description
>>>>    The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server 
>>>> will support the <cancel-commit> operation, the <confirmed>, 
>>>> <confirm-
>>>> timeout>, <persist>, and <persist-id> parameters for the <commit>
>>>> operation, and differentiate between a to be confirmed <commit> 
>>>> operation (a confirmed commit) and a confirming <commit> 
>>>> operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the <commit> 
>>>> operation.
>>>>    A confirmed <commit> operation MUST be reverted if a confirming 
>>>> commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600 
>>>> seconds =3D 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a <commit> 
>>>> operation without the <confirmed> parameter and, if successful, 
>>>> cannot be reverted. The timeout period can be adjusted with the 
>>>> <confirm-
>>>> timeout> parameter. If a follow-up confirmed <commit> operation is
>>>> issued before the timer expires, the timer is reset to the new 
>>>> value
>>>> (600 seconds by default). Both the confirming commit and a 
>>>> follow-up confirmed <commit> operation MAY introduce additional 
>>>> changes to the configuration.
>>>>    If the <persist> element is not given in the confirmed commit 
>>>> operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be 
>>>> issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the 
>>>> <persist> element is given in the confirmed <commit> operation, a 
>>>> follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any 
>>>> session, and they MUST include a <persist-id> element with a value 
>>>> equal to the given value of the <persist> element.
>>>>    If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a <copy-
>>>> config> from running to startup is also necessary to save the
>>>> changes to startup. If the session issuing a sequence of one or 
>>>> more confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the 
>>>> confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration 
>>>> to its state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, 
>>>> unless the last confirmed commit also included a <persist> or 
>>>> <persist-id> element.
>>>>    If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout 
>>>> expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state 
>>>> before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the 
>>>> last confirmed commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id>
element.
>>>>    If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its 
>>>> configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the first in 
>>>> the current sequence of confirmed commits. To cancel the current 
>>>> sequence of confirmed commits and revert changes without waiting 
>>>> for the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly 
>>>> restore the configuration to its state before the sequence of 
>>>> confirmed commits was issued, by using the <cancel-commit> operation.
>>>>    Jonathan Hansford
>>> On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:53 AM, RFC Errata System 
>>> <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The following errata report has been held for document update for 
>>>> RFC6241, "Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)".
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>> You may review the report below and at:
>>>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D6241&eid=3D3821
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>> Status: Held for Document Update
>>>> Type: Editorial
>>>>
>>>> Reported by: Jonathan Hansford <jonathan@hansfords.net> Date 
>>>> Reported: 2013-12-06 Held by: Benoit Claise (IESG)
>>>>
>>>> Section: 8.4.1
>>>>
>>>> Original Text
>>>> -------------
>>>> 8.4.1.  Description
>>>>
>>>> The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will 
>>>> support the <cancel-commit> operation and the <confirmed>, 
>>>> <confirm-timeout>, <persist>, and <persist-id> parameters for the 
>>>> <commit> operation.  See Section 8.3 for further details on the 
>>>> <commit> operation.
>>>>
>>>> A confirmed <commit> operation MUST be reverted if a confirming 
>>>> commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600 
>>>> seconds =3D 10 minutes).  The confirming commit is a <commit> 
>>>> operation without the <confirmed> parameter.  The timeout period 
>>>> can be adjusted with the <confirm-timeout> parameter.  If a 
>>>> follow-up confirmed <commit> operation is issued before the timer 
>>>> expires, the timer is reset to the new value (600 seconds by 
>>>> default).  Both the confirming commit and a follow-up confirmed 
>>>> <commit> operation MAY introduce additional changes to the
configuration.
>>>>
>>>> If the <persist> element is not given in the confirmed commit 
>>>> operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be 
>>>> issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit.  If 
>>>> the <persist> element is given in the confirmed <commit> operation, 
>>>> a follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any 
>>>> session, and they MUST include a <persist-id> element with a value 
>>>> equal to the given value of the <persist> element.
>>>>
>>>> If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a 
>>>> <copy-config> from running to startup is also necessary to save the 
>>>> changes to startup.
>>>>
>>>> If the session issuing the confirmed commit is terminated for any 
>>>> reason before the confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore 
>>>> the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit was 
>>>> issued, unless the confirmed commit also included a <persist> 
>>>> element.
>>>>
>>>> If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout 
>>>> expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state 
>>>> before the confirmed commit was issued.
>>>>
>>>> If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its 
>>>> configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the confirmed 
>>>> commit.  To cancel a confirmed commit and revert changes without 
>>>> waiting for the confirm timeout to expire, the client can 
>>>> explicitly restore the configuration to its state before the 
>>>> confirmed commit was issued, by using the <cancel-commit> operation.
>>>>
>>>> Corrected Text
>>>> --------------
>>>> 8.4.1.  Description
>>>>
>>>> The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will 
>>>> support the <cancel-commit> operation, the <confirmed>, <confirm-
>>>> timeout>, <persist>, and <persist-id> parameters for the <commit>
>>>> operation, and differentiate between a to be confirmed <commit> 
>>>> operation (a confirmed commit) and a confirming <commit> 
>>>> operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the <commit> 
>>>> operation.
>>>>
>>>> A confirmed <commit> operation MUST be reverted if a confirming 
>>>> commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600 
>>>> seconds =3D 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a <commit> 
>>>> operation without the <confirmed> parameter and, if successful, 
>>>> cannot be reverted. The timeout period can be adjusted with the 
>>>> <confirm-
>>>> timeout> parameter. If a follow-up confirmed <commit> operation is
>>>> issued before the timer expires, the timer is reset to the new 
>>>> value
>>>> (600 seconds by default). Both the confirming commit and a 
>>>> follow-up confirmed <commit> operation MAY introduce additional 
>>>> changes to the configuration.
>>>>
>>>> If the <persist> element is not given in the confirmed commit 
>>>> operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be 
>>>> issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the 
>>>> <persist> element is given in the confirmed <commit> operation, a 
>>>> follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any 
>>>> session, and they MUST include a <persist-id> element with a value 
>>>> equal to the given value of the <persist> element.
>>>>
>>>> If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a <copy-
>>>> config> from running to startup is also necessary to save the
>>>> changes to startup. If the session issuing a sequence of one or 
>>>> more confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the 
>>>> confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration 
>>>> to its state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, 
>>>> unless the last confirmed commit also included a <persist> element.
>>>>
>>>> If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout 
>>>> expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state 
>>>> before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.
>>>>
>>>> If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its 
>>>> configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the first in 
>>>> the current sequence of confirmed commits. To cancel the current 
>>>> sequence of confirmed commits and revert changes without waiting 
>>>> for the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly 
>>>> restore the configuration to its state before the sequence of 
>>>> confirmed commits was issued, by using the <cancel-commit> operation.
>>>>
>>>> Notes
>>>> -----
>>>> This erratum seeks to clarify the meaning of the term "confirmed 
>>>> commit" for those not familiar with the use of the term within 
>>>> JUNOS. In particular, that the use of "confirmed" is not in the 
>>>> sense of the adjective (meaning "firmly established") but rather 
>>>> that the commit needs to be confirmed. It also emphasises that a 
>>>> "confirming commit" cannot be reverted. Finally it identifies that 
>>>> it is possible to have a sequence of "confirmed commits" prior to a 
>>>> "confirming commit" and that, should no "confirming commit" be 
>>>> received, the configuration will revert to the state prior to the 
>>>> first "confirmed commit" in the sequence.
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>> RFC6241 (draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-10)
>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>> Title               : Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)
>>>> Publication Date    : June 2011
>>>> Author(s) : R. Enns, Ed., M. Bjorklund, Ed., J. Schoenwaelder, Ed., 
>>>> A. Bierman, Ed.
>>>> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>>>> Source              : Network Configuration
>>>> Area                : Operations and Management
>>>> Stream              : IETF
>>>> Verifying Party     : IESG
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netconf mailing list
>>> netconf@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netconf mailing list
>> netconf@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>>



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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
To: <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Cc: <netconf@ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 6:46 PM

> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are
the
> > > specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?
> > >
> >
> > If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
> > (or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
> > generic implementations.
> >
> > Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with
special
> > purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic client
> > libraries.
>
> And you can no longer create all required config in one transaction;
> you have to split it into sending multiple special-purpose actions.
> Perhaps also in a certain order, that you have to figure out somehow,
> since config might have refererences to other partf of the config
> etc.
>
> You can no longer restore a backup with just a copy-config.

Which is exactly what I have seen customers - think military - do.

Security-related information - userid, passwords, second factor , ...-
MUST NOT be backed up like everything else - special procedures -
authentication, encryption -  must be used.

This is security - it matters.

Tom Petch

> So I don't think the reasoning is unclear at all.
>
> /martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
> To: <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: <netconf@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 6:46 PM
> 
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are
> the
> > > > specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?
> > > >
> > >
> > > If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
> > > (or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
> > > generic implementations.
> > >
> > > Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with
> special
> > > purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic client
> > > libraries.
> >
> > And you can no longer create all required config in one transaction;
> > you have to split it into sending multiple special-purpose actions.
> > Perhaps also in a certain order, that you have to figure out somehow,
> > since config might have refererences to other partf of the config
> > etc.
> >
> > You can no longer restore a backup with just a copy-config.
> 
> Which is exactly what I have seen customers - think military - do.
> 
> Security-related information - userid, passwords, second factor , ...-
> MUST NOT be backed up like everything else - special procedures -
> authentication, encryption -  must be used.

Agreed!  BUT, then it should not be modelled as configuration, imo.

And the current model already handles this case with "hidden" keys.




/martin

> 
> This is security - it matters.
> 
> Tom Petch
> 
> > So I don't think the reasoning is unclear at all.
> >
> > /martin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netconf mailing list
> > netconf@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> 
>


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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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--------------ms030100080606040406020605
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF=
-8">
  </head>
  <body text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>Hello,</p>
    <p>While using actions to configure data nodes instead of
      edit-config clearly has problems, in some cases it is needed.
      Ericsson does use it, but we try to be VERY(!) restrictive when it
      is allowed. IMHO=C2=A0 security best practice could be one case. Al=
so
      we should not pretend this is the only case where the system
      itself manipulates configuration:</p>
    <ul>
      <li>security keys</li>
      <li>HW insertion/removal (interface type)<br>
      </li>
      <li>onboard automation may do it<br>
      </li>
      <li>server capabilities that need additional configuration (must
        be in running as it is reference from other parts of the
        configuration)</li>
    </ul>
    <p>I also hope we will arrive at a solution that works for non-NMDA
      systems too. AFAIK=C2=A0 we never stated in any RFC that NMDA is a
      requirement for the solution. (Except for NMDA itself :-)=C2=A0 )<b=
r>
    </p>
    <p>regards Balazs<br>
    </p>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2019. 04. 05. 14:22, Martin
      Bjorklund wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
      cite=3D"mid:20190405.142201.707949273328784535.mbj@tail-f.com">
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">tom petch <a class=3D"moz-tx=
t-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com">&lt;ietfc@btconnect.=
com&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Bjorklund" <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailt=
o:mbj@tail-f.com">&lt;mbj@tail-f.com&gt;</a>
To: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jac=
obs-university.de">&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;</a>
Cc: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">&=
lt;netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 6:46 PM

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">Juergen Schoenwaelder <a=
 class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-un=
iversity.de">&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 a=
t 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
</pre>
            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
              <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">

We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">the
</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <blockquote type=3D"cite">
              <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">specific objections =
and is there anyway to alleviate them?

</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
(or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
generic implementations.

Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">special
</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">purpose operations, yo=
u say goodbye to the idea of generic client
libraries.
</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
And you can no longer create all required config in one transaction;
you have to split it into sending multiple special-purpose actions.
Perhaps also in a certain order, that you have to figure out somehow,
since config might have refererences to other partf of the config
etc.

You can no longer restore a backup with just a copy-config.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
Which is exactly what I have seen customers - think military - do.

Security-related information - userid, passwords, second factor , ...-
MUST NOT be backed up like everything else - special procedures -
authentication, encryption -  must be used.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
Agreed!  BUT, then it should not be modelled as configuration, imo.

And the current model already handles this case with "hidden" keys.




/martin

</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
This is security - it matters.

Tom Petch

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">So I don't think the rea=
soning is unclear at all.

/martin

_______________________________________________
netconf mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">ne=
tconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">
_______________________________________________
netconf mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org">ne=
tconf@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/netconf">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a>

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbr=
eviated" href=3D"mailto:Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com">Balazs.Lengyel@erics=
son.com</a>=20
</pre>
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--------------ms030100080606040406020605--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "tsv-art@ietf.org" <tsv-art@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23
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Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 19:38:19 +0000
Message-ID: <8bb9e0b1b7f342acb2c77146b27bf479@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
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--_004_8bb9e0b1b7f342acb2c77146b27bf479XCHRTP013ciscocom_--


From nobody Fri Apr  5 19:58:09 2019
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From: Carlos Pignataro via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 19:57:59 -0700
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Subject: [netconf] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23
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Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro
Review result: Has Nits

Hi,

I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's
ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of
the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included
in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs should
treat these comments just like any other last call comments.

Summary: Almost Ready

This is a comprehensive very well written document.

>From an operational point of view, as per the ops-dir review, I have no
concerns or comments. Might be nice to collect some of the operational points
in an Operations Consideration section, particularly given the document
structure of Section 5.x, "ZZZ Considerations".

I do have one important question for consideration, which is: what is *really*
the relationship of this (+ draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications
potentially) with RFC 5277? A Normative reference, this doc has no metadata
regarding Updating, Obsoleting, etc. Yet lots of it is indeed a superset of it.

I recommend the authors+ADs consider whether there is any more formal
relationship with RFC 5277 that would require meta-tagging the RFC.

Thanks,

Carlos Pignataro.


From nobody Sat Apr  6 05:03:16 2019
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: [netconf] reporting-level enum value
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--Apple-Mail=_16F78DF1-2757-47A5-9788-0FEEFA6B918D
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	charset=utf-8


The zerotouch draft is in AUTH48 and one thing came up...

In Section 7.3, in the RPC-reply for the `get-boostrapping-data` RPC, =
there is a leaf called `reporting-level`:

         "Specifies the reporting level for progress reports the
           bootstrap server would like to receive when processing
           onboarding information.

With current values "standard" and "verbose".

The question to the WG is, would it be in anyway better to NOT use the =
word "standard"?
Perhaps it should be "minimal", =E2=80=9Cdefault=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cmandatory=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D instead?
Thoughts?

Kent


--Apple-Mail=_16F78DF1-2757-47A5-9788-0FEEFA6B918D
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The zerotouch draft is =
in AUTH48 and one thing came up...</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>In Section 7.3, in the RPC-reply for the =
`get-boostrapping-data` RPC, there is a leaf called =
`reporting-level`:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;"Specifies the reporting level for progress reports the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;bootstrap server =
would like to receive when processing<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;onboarding information.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With current values "standard" and =
"verbose".</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
question to the WG is, would it be in anyway better to NOT use the word =
"standard"?</div><div class=3D"">Perhaps it should be "minimal", =
=E2=80=9Cdefault=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cmandatory=E2=80=9D, or =
=E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D instead?</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Thoughts?</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Kent</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_16F78DF1-2757-47A5-9788-0FEEFA6B918D--


From nobody Sun Apr  7 14:17:33 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for SSH Clients and SSH Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
                          Liang Xia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-12.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2019-04-07

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic SSH client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   SSH server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the SSH protocol.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server/

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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-12

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From nobody Sun Apr  7 14:31:11 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for TLS Clients and TLS Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
                          Liang Xia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-11.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2019-04-07

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic TLS client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   TLS server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the TLS protocol.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server/

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From nobody Sun Apr  7 15:37:10 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NETCONF Client and Server Models
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-11.txt
	Pages           : 64
	Date            : 2019-04-07

Abstract:
   This document defines two YANG modules, one module to configure a
   NETCONF client and the other module to configure a NETCONF server.
   Both modules support both the SSH and TLS transport protocols, and
   support both standard NETCONF and NETCONF Call Home connections.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   This draft contains many placeholder values that need to be replaced
   with finalized values at the time of publication.  This note
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   Editor instructions are specified elsewhere in this document.

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   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-keystore

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-tcp-client-server

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-tls-client-server

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   Artwork in this document contains placeholder values for the date of
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   o  "2019-04-07" --> the publication date of this draft

   The following Appendix section is to be removed prior to publication:

   o  Appendix B.  Change Log


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : RESTCONF Client and Server Models
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-11.txt
	Pages           : 51
	Date            : 2019-04-07

Abstract:
   This document defines two YANG modules, one module to configure a
   RESTCONF client and the other module to configure a RESTCONF server.
   Both modules support the TLS transport protocol with both standard
   RESTCONF and RESTCONF Call Home connections.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   This draft contains many placeholder values that need to be replaced
   with finalized values at the time of publication.  This note
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   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-keystore

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-tcp-client-server

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-tls-client-server

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-http-client-server

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   Artwork in this document contains placeholder values for the date of
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   The following Appendix section is to be removed prior to publication:

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For all drafts:

  - Collapsed all the inner groupings into the top-level grouping.
  - Added a top-level "demux container" inside the top-level grouping.
    By "demux", I'm referring to the namespace problem discussed @104.
  - Added NACM statements and updated the Security Considerations =
section.
  - Added "presence" statements on the "keepalive" containers, as was
    needed to address a validation error that appeared after adding the
    "must" statements into the NETCONF/RESTCONF client/server modules.
  - Updated the boilerplate text in module-level "description" statement
     to match copyeditor convention.

For the http draft:
  - removed "keepalive" node
  - added "proxy-server" node
  - added "protocol-version" node
  - added "server-name" node

For the netconf/restconf drafts:
  - Adjusted for the top-level "demux container" added by groupings
    imported from other modules.
  - Added "must" expressions to ensure that keepalives are not
    configured for "periodic" connections.
  - Moved "groupings-expanded" tree diagrams to the Appendix.



Current Issues:

1. Regarding the "demux containers":

     Pros:
       - now NC/RC models look better
       - a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write

     Cons:
       - seems overbearing for general use

   Question:

     Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"
     statement in the NC/RC models with a container?

        Pros: maximum flexibility
        Cons: less consistency?
      =20


2. Only in the RESTCONF draft, http proxy-server weirdness

   a) in the "ietf-restconf-client", there's an unwanted "proxy-server"
      definition  (middle of page 43):

      =
/restconf-client/listen/endpoint/https/http-client-parameters/proxy-server=


      An HTTP client that receives a call-home connection does NOT need
      to initiate a connection and therefore there never is a desire to
      configure a proxy server, but here it is!

      It's here because the "ieft-http-client" grouping defines it, but
      when that grouping is used, neither "refine" nor "augment" can
      remove the definition.

      Sure, a "must" could disable it, but it still shows in the tree
      diagram, which is undesirable...


  b)in the "ietf-restconf-server", there's a missing "proxy-server"
      definition  (bottom of page 48 ):

      /restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client/endpoints/endpoint/\
      https/http-client-parameters/<missing:proxy-server/>

      An HTTP server that establishes a call-home connection needs
      to initiate a connection and therefore there is a desire to
      configure a proxy server, but the config node is missing!

      This is because the "ieft-http-server" grouping doesn't
      defines a proxy-server node (because servers typically
      never need to go through a proxy so, when that grouping
      is used, the definition is missing.

      Sure, we could augment it in, but coupled with the above,
      maybe there's a better answer?

  What to do?


3. In either the NETCONF and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all
   where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they refer to
   nodes that are conditional by "if-feature" statements?

      i.e., search for "case periodic-connection"

   Should the "must" statements be located somewhere else?



4) Only in the NETCONF draft, Section 5 contains the old  "Design
   Considerations" text from ~5 years ago.

   The idea of removing is was discussed a while back, and someone
   said it was worth keeping...

   I'm thinking again to remove it, but rather to deleting it, I'm
   now thinking maybe we could *move* it to an Informational draft:

     "Architecture for the Collection of Client and Server Models"

   that could also contain a picture like this:

                                        crypto-types
                                          ^      ^
                                         /        \
                                        /          \
                              trust-anchors       keystore
                                 ^      ^------+    ^
                                 |              \   |
                                 |      +-----------+
                                 |     /          \
 tcp-client-server     ssh-client-server      tls-client-server     =
http-client-server
       ^      ^              ^                  ^           ^            =
   ^
       |      |              |                  |           |            =
   |
       |      |              |       +----------+           |            =
   |
       |      |              |       |                      |            =
   |
       |      |              |       |                      |            =
   |
       |      +--------------|-------|------------+         |            =
   |
       |                     |       |            |         |            =
   |
       |                     |       |            |         |            =
   |
       +--------------+      |       |            |         |      =
+--------+
                      |      |       |            |         |      |
                      |      |       |            |         |      |
                   netconf-client-server        restconf-client-server




  If there is desire, it would be best to do it now so that all of
  the client/server drafts could reference it.  Thus, whichever draft
  a reader begins with, their attention is drawn to the collection and
  thus they can see how the part fits into the whole.

  Someone else can write it.

  Thoughts?



Kent // contributor


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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On Mon, Apr 08, 2019 at 12:07:59AM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> 
> Current Issues:
> 
> 1. Regarding the "demux containers":
> 
>      Pros:
>        - now NC/RC models look better
>        - a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write
> 
>      Cons:
>        - seems overbearing for general use
> 
>    Question:
> 
>      Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"
>      statement in the NC/RC models with a container?
> 
>         Pros: maximum flexibility
>         Cons: less consistency?

What exactly are the demux containers? You mean the
<tcp-client-parameters> and <tls-client-parameters> containers? I have
no strong opinion, they may be ok although things get a bit more
verbose.
 
> 2. Only in the RESTCONF draft, http proxy-server weirdness
> 
>    a) in the "ietf-restconf-client", there's an unwanted "proxy-server"
>       definition  (middle of page 43):
> 
>       /restconf-client/listen/endpoint/https/http-client-parameters/proxy-server
> 
>       An HTTP client that receives a call-home connection does NOT need
>       to initiate a connection and therefore there never is a desire to
>       configure a proxy server, but here it is!
> 
>       It's here because the "ieft-http-client" grouping defines it, but
>       when that grouping is used, neither "refine" nor "augment" can
>       remove the definition.
> 
>       Sure, a "must" could disable it, but it still shows in the tree
>       diagram, which is undesirable...
> 
> 
>   b)in the "ietf-restconf-server", there's a missing "proxy-server"
>       definition  (bottom of page 48 ):
> 
>       /restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client/endpoints/endpoint/\
>       https/http-client-parameters/<missing:proxy-server/>
> 
>       An HTTP server that establishes a call-home connection needs
>       to initiate a connection and therefore there is a desire to
>       configure a proxy server, but the config node is missing!
> 
>       This is because the "ieft-http-server" grouping doesn't
>       defines a proxy-server node (because servers typically
>       never need to go through a proxy so, when that grouping
>       is used, the definition is missing.
> 
>       Sure, we could augment it in, but coupled with the above,
>       maybe there's a better answer?
> 
>   What to do?

No idea.
 
> 3. In either the NETCONF and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all
>    where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they refer to
>    nodes that are conditional by "if-feature" statements?
> 
>       i.e., search for "case periodic-connection"
> 
>    Should the "must" statements be located somewhere else?
 
I actually wonder whether this must is really desirable. What breaks
if I have TCP keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home connection?
Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken firewall.
 
> 4) Only in the NETCONF draft, Section 5 contains the old  "Design
>    Considerations" text from ~5 years ago.
> 
>    The idea of removing is was discussed a while back, and someone
>    said it was worth keeping...
> 
>    I'm thinking again to remove it, but rather to deleting it, I'm
>    now thinking maybe we could *move* it to an Informational draft:
> 
>      "Architecture for the Collection of Client and Server Models"
> 
>    that could also contain a picture like this:
> 
>                                         crypto-types
>                                           ^      ^
>                                          /        \
>                                         /          \
>                               trust-anchors       keystore
>                                  ^      ^------+    ^
>                                  |              \   |
>                                  |      +-----------+
>                                  |     /          \
>  tcp-client-server     ssh-client-server      tls-client-server     http-client-server
>        ^      ^              ^                  ^           ^               ^
>        |      |              |                  |           |               |
>        |      |              |       +----------+           |               |
>        |      |              |       |                      |               |
>        |      |              |       |                      |               |
>        |      +--------------|-------|------------+         |               |
>        |                     |       |            |         |               |
>        |                     |       |            |         |               |
>        +--------------+      |       |            |         |      +--------+
>                       |      |       |            |         |      |
>                       |      |       |            |         |      |
>                    netconf-client-server        restconf-client-server
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   If there is desire, it would be best to do it now so that all of
>   the client/server drafts could reference it.  Thus, whichever draft
>   a reader begins with, their attention is drawn to the collection and
>   thus they can see how the part fits into the whole.

I like the modularization you are doing but perhaps the problem is
that the packaging of this stuff into documents makes things hard to
follow. For example, why not define crypto-types, trust-anchors, and
keystore into one document? Then this document could explain the top
part of your figure. One could perhaps also put tcp-client-server,
tls-client-server, and http-client-server together, perhaps even
adding ssh-client-server to it. Note that you always revise the
modules are different speeds later on since you can have future RFCs
take over control over a specific module.

That said, I believe we need to document the design of this somewhere
so that others use it instead of rolling their own solutions. So my
preference likely is to do both, merge some closely related modules
into single documents and have a document that explains the overall
design and how it is to be used by others.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 19:11:00 +0000
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To: NICK HANCOCK <nick.hancock@adtran.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Adoption poll for tcp-client-server and http-client-server draft
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Hi Nick,

You will notice in the latest tcp-client-server update [1] that there is =
now a "presence" statement on the "keepalives" containers.  Do you think =
any more "mandatory true" statements are needed?

I don't understand your last comment or, rather, I think it is the case =
already that the TCP keepalives configuration is outside the SSH/TLS =
configuration.  Note the "keepalives" configuration inside the SSH/TLS =
configuration is actually to separately configure keepalives at the =
SSH/TLS levels - makes sense?

[1] =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server-01>

Kent // contributor


> On Mar 26, 2019, at 10:30 AM, NICK HANCOCK <nick.hancock@adtran.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I support this work to provide the ability to configure TCP keepalives =
for NETCONF connections as we need this support in our implementations =
and support the adoption of these drafts.
> =20
> I also have the following comments on the actual YANG implementation =
and usage within the client/server model.
> =20
> The leafs within the =E2=80=9Ctcp-keepalives=E2=80=9D container are =
optional. Given that a server supports the feature =
=E2=80=9Ctcp-client-keepalives=E2=80=9D, TCP keepalives would be =
disabled per default through missing configuration, which I believe is =
desirable behavior. However, there is currently nothing to prevent a =
client configuring, say, just =E2=80=98max-probes=E2=80=99 only =
resulting in an incomplete but valid configuration. Would not adding a =
=E2=80=98presence=E2=80=99 statement to the container =
=E2=80=9Ctcp-keepalives=E2=80=9D and making its child nodes mandatory or =
adding default values be a more practical solution that defines a =
predictable behavior?
> =20
> Since TCP is a layer below the security layer and independent of the =
choice of security protocol, I was wondering what the motivation was for =
locating the TCP keepalives configuration within the SSH/TLS =
configuration. Wouldn=E2=80=99t this be better located as a sibling nod =
to the choice =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D?
> =20
> Nick
> =20
>  <>From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani
> Sent: 26 March 2019 12:17
> To: Netconf <netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
> Subject: [netconf] Adoption poll for tcp-client-server and =
http-client-server draft
> =20
> This is the start of a two week poll for WG adoption of the two =
drafts:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server-00>
> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-http-client-server-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-http-client-server-00>
>=20
> Please indicate your support for or any objections you might have for =
adopting the two drafts as WG items by April 9.
>=20
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com <mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>___________________________=
____________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>

--Apple-Mail=_7198D22E-2350-47E2-AC24-CEC3CCC7768A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Nick,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You will =
notice in the latest&nbsp;tcp-client-server update [1] that there is now =
a "presence" statement on the "keepalives" containers. &nbsp;Do you =
think any more "mandatory true" statements are needed?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don't understand your =
last comment or, rather, I think it is the case already that =
the&nbsp;TCP keepalives configuration is outside the SSH/TLS =
configuration. &nbsp;Note the "keepalives" configuration inside =
the&nbsp;SSH/TLS configuration is actually to separately configure =
keepalives at the SSH/TLS levels - makes sense?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[1]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-serve=
r-01" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-se=
rver-01</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent=
 // contributor</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar =
26, 2019, at 10:30 AM, NICK HANCOCK &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nick.hancock@adtran.com" =
class=3D"">nick.hancock@adtran.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica-Light; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I support this work to =
provide the ability to configure TCP keepalives for NETCONF connections =
as we need this support in our implementations and support the adoption =
of these drafts.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
also have the following comments on the actual YANG implementation and =
usage within the client/server model.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The leafs within the =
=E2=80=9Ctcp-keepalives=E2=80=9D container are optional. Given that a =
server supports the feature =E2=80=9Ctcp-client-keepalives=E2=80=9D, TCP =
keepalives would be disabled per default through missing configuration, =
which I believe is desirable behavior. However, there is currently =
nothing to prevent a client configuring, say, just =E2=80=98max-probes=E2=80=
=99 only resulting in an incomplete but valid configuration. Would not =
adding a =E2=80=98presence=E2=80=99 statement to the container =
=E2=80=9Ctcp-keepalives=E2=80=9D and making its child nodes mandatory or =
adding default values be a more practical solution that defines a =
predictable behavior?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Since TCP is a layer below the security layer and independent =
of the choice of security protocol, I was wondering what the motivation =
was for locating the TCP keepalives configuration within the SSH/TLS =
configuration. Wouldn=E2=80=99t this be better located as a sibling nod =
to the choice =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Nick</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><a name=3D"_____replyseparator" class=3D""></a><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>netconf &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">netconf-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mahesh =
Jethanandani<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>26 March 2019 12:17<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Netconf &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">netconf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[netconf] Adoption poll for =
tcp-client-server and http-client-server draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">This is the start of a two week poll for =
WG adoption of the two drafts:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-serve=
r-00" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-se=
rver-00</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-http-client-serv=
er-00" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-http-client-s=
erver-00</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please indicate your support =
for or any objections you might have for adopting the two drafts as WG =
items by April 9.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Mahesh Jethanandani<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mjethanandani@gmail.com</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">netconf mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">netconf@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica-Light; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica-Light; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica-Light; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">netconf =
mailing list</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica-Light; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica-Light; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">netconf@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica-Light; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica-Light; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a></div></blockq=
uote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>
CC: "httpbis-chairs@ietf.org" <httpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] time to meet today after 5pm
Thread-Index: AQHU6vCNgvMqKxW42UOukw8bvA9ZS6YsEPAAgAASFACAABgwAIAIHy0A
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 19:06:43 +0000
Message-ID: <B21C3F25-221B-4EE3-A981-D4EE49864C06@cisco.com>
References: <01000169def07790-5f902f1b-ddce-438b-8e05-d4b7e82818bc-000000@email.amazonses.com> <CAOdDvNoDFoa30tJ8XDz482_38rw8+ajwW4+dSx7s_psoFY7ukQ@mail.gmail.com> <56E946DC-A690-4B1E-8FB5-683473955C5D@gmail.com> <20190404.163346.857364419603319540.mbj@tail-f.com> <CAOdDvNq4bLXtdDD7WdXbH-e14-i_yy50ADm59YtOKW5buaCjOg@mail.gmail.com> <01000169e94f9d0d-7f85f47b-9f92-41a2-94b1-0061bb9bdb3d-000000@email.amazonses.com>
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To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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--_000_025910F1FD33499CA6E2F6816FAB5467ciscocom_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, "ops-dir@ietf.org" <ops-dir@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23
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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 21:03:24 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 23:42:17 +0000
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To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] reporting-level enum value
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Thanks Charles.  Any objections?

Kent // contributor=20


> On Apr 9, 2019, at 3:18 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) =
<eckelcu@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> =E2=80=9Cminimal=E2=80=9D seems appropriate to me.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Charles
> =20
> From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Kent Watsen =
<kent+ietf@watsen.net <mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>
> Date: Saturday, April 6, 2019 at 2:03 PM
> To: "netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>" <netconf@ietf.org =
<mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
> Subject: [netconf] reporting-level enum value
> =20
> =20
> The zerotouch draft is in AUTH48 and one thing came up...
> =20
> In Section 7.3, in the RPC-reply for the `get-boostrapping-data` RPC, =
there is a leaf called `reporting-level`:
>=20
>          "Specifies the reporting level for progress reports the
>            bootstrap server would like to receive when processing
>            onboarding information.=20
> =20
> With current values "standard" and "verbose".
> =20
> The question to the WG is, would it be in anyway better to NOT use the =
word "standard"?
> Perhaps it should be "minimal", =E2=80=9Cdefault=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cmandatory=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D instead?
> Thoughts?
> =20
> Kent


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks Charles. &nbsp;Any objections?<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent // contributor&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr 9, 2019, at 3:18 PM, =
Charles Eckel (eckelcu) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eckelcu@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">eckelcu@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica-Light; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=9Cminimal=E2=80=9D seems appropriate to =
me.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Cheers,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">Charles<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">netconf &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, =
114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">netconf-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Kent Watsen =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, =
114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">kent+ietf@watsen.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Saturday, April 6, 2019 =
at 2:03 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">netconf@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">netconf@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>[netconf] =
reporting-level enum value<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The zerotouch draft =
is in AUTH48 and one thing came up...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">In Section 7.3, in the RPC-reply for the =
`get-boostrapping-data` RPC, there is a leaf called =
`reporting-level`:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;"Specifies the reporting level for progress reports the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;bootstrap server =
would like to receive when processing<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;onboarding information.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">With current values "standard" and =
"verbose".<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The question to the WG is, would it be in anyway =
better to NOT use the word "standard"?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Perhaps it should be "minimal", =E2=80=9Cdefault=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cmandatory=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D instead?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thoughts?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Kent</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:47:42 +1000
Cc: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>, "httpbis-chairs@ietf.org" <httpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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References: <01000169def07790-5f902f1b-ddce-438b-8e05-d4b7e82818bc-000000@email.amazonses.com> <CAOdDvNoDFoa30tJ8XDz482_38rw8+ajwW4+dSx7s_psoFY7ukQ@mail.gmail.com> <56E946DC-A690-4B1E-8FB5-683473955C5D@gmail.com> <20190404.163346.857364419603319540.mbj@tail-f.com> <CAOdDvNq4bLXtdDD7WdXbH-e14-i_yy50ADm59YtOKW5buaCjOg@mail.gmail.com> <01000169e94f9d0d-7f85f47b-9f92-41a2-94b1-0061bb9bdb3d-000000@email.amazonses.com> <B21C3F25-221B-4EE3-A981-D4EE49864C06@cisco.com>
To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] time to meet today after 5pm
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Charles,

> On 10 Apr 2019, at 5:06 am, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) =
<eckelcu@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> I would recommend against adding any keepalive mechanism to RESTCONF. =
Strongly recommending the use of HTTPS when using RESTCONF is fine, but =
keep in mind that RESTCONF was created, and is viewed in the industry, =
as a =E2=80=9CREST-like=E2=80=9D alternative to NETCONF. The tradeoff is =
functionality built into the protocol vs. complexity of writing an =
application that uses the protocol. It is trivial to make individual =
RESTCONF requests but more difficult for an application to implement =
network transactions using RESTCONF than if using NETCONF. An =
application developer is free to choose the right protocol for the job. =
Adding complexity to RESTCONF that make it less REST-like would be a =
mistake, in my opinion.

What do you mean by "REST-like"?

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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Reply-To: Takeshi Takahashi <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 00:13:34 -0700
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Subject: [netconf] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22
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Reviewer: Takeshi Takahashi
Review result: Has Nits

This draft talks about push-type update notifications of YANG datastore. It
provides two types of subscriptions: periodic and on-change. I have one
comments (item 4) and four clarification questions (items 1-3) below.

1. on the on-change subscription (in sections 3.3 and 3.10)

The draft says "it will be important for client applications to have a way to
identify for which objects on-change notifications are supported and for which
ones they are not supported," but this issue is currently left to the
implementation. It would be nice if you could provide some example solutions to
this problem so that the implementers of this draft will not be confused.

When a publisher accept on-change subscription even when the scope of the
subscription contains objects for which on-change is not supported, I wonder
sending some notification message on the situation could be helpful for the
subscriber. By reading other part of the draft, I feel that the draft is indeed
recommending to implement such comprehensive notifications. If so, it had
better be clearly mentioned in this section. I also think it is not a bad idea
to define such a comprehensive notification in this draft, though it is up to
the authors.

2. on the differing dampening periods for multiple objects(in section 3)

The draft says "In case whether a subscriber wants to have separate dampening
periods for different objects, the subscriber has the option to create multiple
subscriptions with different selection filters." That is a good solution. Then
are the any other options for allowing to have separate dampening periods for
different objects? The sentence gave me the impression that there are multiple
options; so I am asking this question only for clarification.

3. imcomplete-update flag (in sections 3.11.1 and 4.3.2)

I am not sure what would be the expected actions of the subscribers when they
receive a message with incomplete-update flag on. Some navigations would be
appreciated. Meanwhile, according to section 4.3.2, a publisher MAY
subsequently send a push-update containing a full selection snapshot of
subscribed data. If such a push-update is subsequently sent, does the publisher
need to send anoter message with incomplete-update flag on prior to the
push-update with a full selection snapshot of subscribed data?

4. security considerations (in section 7)

This section enumerates four threats that are newly introduced by this draft.
Some countermeasures, or directions to address these threats, had better be
provided here.


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From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>, "httpbis-chairs@ietf.org" <httpbis-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] time to meet today after 5pm
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, "tsv-art@ietf.org" <tsv-art@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-17
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From nobody Wed Apr 10 06:51:05 2019
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:50:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netconf] time to meet today after 5pm
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>    What do you mean by "REST-like"?
>=20
> With RESTCONF, the YANG models supported by the RESTCONF server result =
in it exposing RESTful or REST-like APIs to the RESTCONF client. You can =
view the RESTCONF server as supporting a set of REST APIs with some =
additional conventions/requirements on the structure on the URIs, such =
as the root of the RESTCONF API, use of specific HTTP response codes, =
etc.


The root of the API is discovered via /.well-known/host-meta, per =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-3.1.

As for what is RESTCONF, from Sections 1.2:

   RESTCONF is not intended to replace NETCONF, but rather to provide an
   HTTP interface that follows Representational State Transfer (REST)
   principles [REST-Dissertation] and is compatible with the NETCONF
   datastore model.


And Section 1.3:

   RESTCONF combines the simplicity of HTTP with the predictability and
   automation potential of a schema-driven API.  Knowing the YANG
   modules used by the server, a client can derive all management
   resource URLs and the proper structure of all RESTCONF requests and
   responses.  This strategy obviates the need for responses provided by
   the server to contain Hypermedia as the Engine of Application State
   (HATEOAS) links, originally described in Roy Fielding's doctoral
   dissertation [REST-Dissertation], because the client can determine
   the links it needs from the YANG modules.


Kent


From nobody Wed Apr 10 08:11:45 2019
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
CC: "ops-dir@ietf.org" <ops-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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From nobody Wed Apr 10 09:17:35 2019
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Subject: [netconf] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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Reviewer: Robert Sparks
Review result: Ready

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
Reviewer: Robert Sparks
Review Date: 2019-04-10
IETF LC End Date: 2019-04-12
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary: Ready for publication as a proposed standard

Nits/editorial comments:

The abstract is quite terse. Please consider expanding it to something that
stands better by itself.

The sentence that starts "Driving these requirements" in the introduction does
not follow where it sits in the paragraph. There is no antecedent for "these
requirements". I suggest replacing the sentence with "Requirements for these
mechanisms are captured in [RFC7923].

The second sentence in the first paragraph of section 3 is a run-on. I suggest
s/2.4, the/2.4. The/



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Subject: Re: [netconf] Adoption poll for tcp-client-server and http-client-server draft
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: NICK HANCOCK <nick.hancock@adtran.com>
CC: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/yP8uRXfHVVKV01geL9Tfhu-vd5E>
Subject: Re: [netconf] Adoption poll for tcp-client-server and http-client-server draft
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Sorry, this is impossible to read without an HTML rendering engine.

/js

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 04:36:52PM +0000, NICK HANCOCK wrote:
> Hi Kent,
>=20
> Some comments in-line=E2=80=A6
>=20
> Nick
>=20
> From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
> Sent: 08 April 2019 21:11
> To: NICK HANCOCK <nick.hancock@adtran.com>
> Cc: Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com>; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netconf] Adoption poll for tcp-client-server and http-cli=
ent-server draft
>=20
> Hi Nick,
>=20
> You will notice in the latest tcp-client-server update [1] that there i=
s now a "presence" statement on the "keepalives" containers.  Do you thin=
k any more "mandatory true" statements are needed?
> [Nick] Given that =E2=80=98max-probes=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98probe-inter=
val=E2=80=99 are optional in the current revision, a client or operator h=
as the option not to configure them. Since they are also without default =
values, the actual behavior after the =E2=80=98idle=E2=80=93time=E2=80=99=
 expires would be defined by the specific implementation and not by the o=
perator. On the other hand, for the YANG model to specify arbitrary defau=
lt values may not really be helpful to an operator as meaningful values w=
ould surely depend on the operators specific requirements.
> Consequently, I believe that all 3 leafs within the container =E2=80=98=
keepalives=E2=80=99 should be mandatory.
>=20
> I don't understand your last comment or, rather, I think it is the case=
 already that the TCP keepalives configuration is outside the SSH/TLS con=
figuration.  Note the "keepalives" configuration inside the SSH/TLS confi=
guration is actually to separately configure keepalives at the SSH/TLS le=
vels - makes sense?
> [Nick] My initial expectation was that since the security layer runs ov=
er the TCP connections, the tcp-client-parameters would be configured ind=
ependently of the security protocol, i.e., to be found directly under =E2=
=80=98endpoint=E2=80=99 and not under ssh or tls.
>=20
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server=
-01<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server-0=
1>
>=20
> Kent // contributor
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mar 26, 2019, at 10:30 AM, NICK HANCOCK <nick.hancock@adtran.com<mai=
lto:nick.hancock@adtran.com>> wrote:
>=20
> I support this work to provide the ability to configure TCP keepalives =
for NETCONF connections as we need this support in our implementations an=
d support the adoption of these drafts.
>=20
> I also have the following comments on the actual YANG implementation an=
d usage within the client/server model.
>=20
> The leafs within the =E2=80=9Ctcp-keepalives=E2=80=9D container are opt=
ional. Given that a server supports the feature =E2=80=9Ctcp-client-keepa=
lives=E2=80=9D, TCP keepalives would be disabled per default through miss=
ing configuration, which I believe is desirable behavior. However, there =
is currently nothing to prevent a client configuring, say, just =E2=80=98=
max-probes=E2=80=99 only resulting in an incomplete but valid configurati=
on. Would not adding a =E2=80=98presence=E2=80=99 statement to the contai=
ner =E2=80=9Ctcp-keepalives=E2=80=9D and making its child nodes mandatory=
 or adding default values be a more practical solution that defines a pre=
dictable behavior?
>=20
> Since TCP is a layer below the security layer and independent of the ch=
oice of security protocol, I was wondering what the motivation was for lo=
cating the TCP keepalives configuration within the SSH/TLS configuration.=
 Wouldn=E2=80=99t this be better located as a sibling nod to the choice =E2=
=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D?
>=20
> Nick
>=20
> From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org=
>> On Behalf Of Mahesh Jethanandani
> Sent: 26 March 2019 12:17
> To: Netconf <netconf@ietf.org<mailto:netconf@ietf.org>>
> Subject: [netconf] Adoption poll for tcp-client-server and http-client-=
server draft
>=20
> This is the start of a two week poll for WG adoption of the two drafts:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server-00<=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-tcp-client-server-00>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-http-client-server-00=
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kwatsen-netconf-http-client-server-00>
>=20
> Please indicate your support for or any objections you might have for a=
dopting the two drafts as WG items by April 9.
>=20
> Mahesh Jethanandani
> mjethanandani@gmail.com<mailto:mjethanandani@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org<mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/netconf>
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org<mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/netconf>
>=20

> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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[Even though I do have an HTML-rendering SMTP client, I also found this =
message difficult to read, mostly due to the inline-level not changing.  =
It took me awhile to realize that I have to search for "[Nick]".  I've =
converted this message to plain-text...]



> You will notice in the latest tcp-client-server update [1] that there =
is now a "presence" statement on the "keepalives" containers.  Do you =
think any more "mandatory true" statements are needed?
>=20
> [Nick] Given that =E2=80=98max-probes=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98probe-interval=E2=80=99 are optional in the current revision, a =
client or operator has the option not to configure them. Since they are =
also without default values, the actual behavior after the =
=E2=80=98idle=E2=80=93time=E2=80=99 expires would be defined by the =
specific implementation and not by the operator. On the other hand, for =
the YANG model to specify arbitrary default values may not really be =
helpful to an operator as meaningful values would surely depend on the =
operators specific requirements.
>=20
> Consequently, I believe that all 3 leafs within the container =
=E2=80=98keepalives=E2=80=99 should be mandatory.

Fair enough.


> I don't understand your last comment or, rather, I think it is the =
case already that the TCP keepalives configuration is outside the =
SSH/TLS configuration.  Note the "keepalives" configuration inside the =
SSH/TLS configuration is actually to separately configure keepalives at =
the SSH/TLS levels - makes sense?
>=20
> [Nick] My initial expectation was that since the security layer runs =
over the TCP connections, the tcp-client-parameters would be configured =
independently of the security protocol, i.e., to be found directly under =
=E2=80=98endpoint=E2=80=99 and not under ssh or tls. =20

Still, I think that this is the case already.  Can you please provide a =
concrete example illustrating the concern?



Thanks,
Kent // contributor



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Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review result: Ready with Nits

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

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Document: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22
Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review Date: 2019-04-10
IETF LC End Date: 2019-04-12
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary: A well written document with just a small nuber of minor matter in the
nits section that need to be considered.

Major issues: None

Minor issues: None

Nits/editorial comments:

  ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 7895 (Obsoleted by RFC 8525)
============

SB> I assume that the ADs are happy with seven front page authors.

===========
 Abstract

   Via the mechanism described in this document, subscriber applications
SB> I am not sure if  starting a sentence with "via" is good English
SB> but I have not seen it done before.

===========
   Traditional approaches to providing visibility into managed entities
   from remote have been built on polling.
SB> from remote what?

===========

3.10.  On-Change Notifiable Datastore Nodes

   In some cases, a publisher supporting on-change notifications may not
   be able to push on-change updates for some object types.  Reasons for
   this might be that the value of the datastore node changes frequently
   (e.g., [RFC8343]'s in-octets counter), that small object changes are
   frequent and meaningless (e.g., a temperature gauge changing 0.1
   degrees), or that the implementation is not capable of on-change
   notification for a particular object.

SB> I could not see the parameter range specifiy what is regarded as trivial
SB> specified in the model. It seems that it perhaps ought to be.
===================

   The next figure depicts augmentations of module ietf-yang-push to the
   notifications that are specified in module ietf-subscribed-
   notifications.  The augmentations allow to include subscription
SB> s/allow to include/allow the inclusion of/
===============


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Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review result: Ready with Nits

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22
Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review Date: 2019-04-10
IETF LC End Date: 2019-04-12
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary: A well written document with just a small nuber of minor matter in the
nits section that need to be considered.

Major issues: None

Minor issues: None

Nits/editorial comments:

  ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 7895 (Obsoleted by RFC 8525)
============

SB> I assume that the ADs are happy with seven front page authors.

===========
 Abstract

   Via the mechanism described in this document, subscriber applications
SB> I am not sure if  starting a sentence with "via" is good English
SB> but I have not seen it done before.

===========
   Traditional approaches to providing visibility into managed entities
   from remote have been built on polling.
SB> from remote what?

===========

3.10.  On-Change Notifiable Datastore Nodes

   In some cases, a publisher supporting on-change notifications may not
   be able to push on-change updates for some object types.  Reasons for
   this might be that the value of the datastore node changes frequently
   (e.g., [RFC8343]'s in-octets counter), that small object changes are
   frequent and meaningless (e.g., a temperature gauge changing 0.1
   degrees), or that the implementation is not capable of on-change
   notification for a particular object.

SB> I could not see the parameter range specifiy what is regarded as trivial
SB> specified in the model. It seems that it perhaps ought to be.
===================

   The next figure depicts augmentations of module ietf-yang-push to the
   notifications that are specified in module ietf-subscribed-
   notifications.  The augmentations allow to include subscription
SB> s/allow to include/allow the inclusion of/
===============


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
CC: "ops-dir@ietf.org" <ops-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 20:35:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23
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--_000_87c35eec471440358c8ca99feee35ca5XCHRTP013ciscocom_--


From nobody Thu Apr 11 14:54:12 2019
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From: Aanchal Malhotra via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 14:54:10 -0700
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Subject: [netconf] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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Reviewer: Aanchal Malhotra
Review result: Ready

The document is very clear and concise.  I just have one minor clarification question.
Section 3.4 Page 9 that says the following:
"In addition to any required ........SHOULD only be allowed......".  

Is there a reason for using SHOULD instead of MUST? 


From nobody Thu Apr 11 23:54:20 2019
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From: Dan Romascanu via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
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Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 23:54:04 -0700
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Subject: [netconf] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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Reviewer: Dan Romascanu
Review result: Ready

This document describes the RESTCONF binding to the dynamic subscription
capability of both subscribed notifications and YANG-Push. It's a useful and
important addition to the RESTCONF protocol mechanisms, and operators should
pay attention. The document is not easy reading, as it relies on several other
documents, but the references in the text help. It would have helped if some
notes were added concerning the possible actions that the operators need to
take in order to ensure optimal behavior (initial configuration for example) or
indications about when to use one or the other of the notifications mechanisms.
This is not blocking, however, and the document is READY for publication.



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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 13:15:22 +0100
From: Jonathan <jonathan@hansfords.net>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, Per Hedeland <per@hedeland.org>
Cc: mferguson@amsl.com, bclaise@cisco.com, rob.enns@gmail.com,  iesg@ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/MWlJEjQfzAEGCYhZS7xSMjXkQTg>
Subject: Re: [netconf] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC6241 (3821)
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Re <persist> and <persist-id>, the point I was trying to get across is, since there can be a sequence of commits after a confirmed commit and before the final confirming commit, it would not necessarily be the last commit before session termination that makes the confirmed commit persistent. Perhaps "unless the last confirmed commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id> element" would be better worded as "unless the confirmed commit was persistent".

Jonathan

=O)
On 21 Feb 2019, 13:48 +0000, Per Hedeland <per@hedeland.org>, wrote:
> On 2019-02-21 14:22, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Per Hedeland <per@hedeland.org> wrote:
> > > On 2019-02-20 01:44, Megan Ferguson wrote:
> > > > Jonathan and Benoit,
> > > > We have edited the "corrected text in this errata report as
> > > > suggested by Jonathan.
> > >
> > > I don't know if this change - i.e. the addition of the text "or
> > > <persist-id>" in two places - should affect the status of the
> > > document, but it seems to me that it can then no longer be considered
> > > a "clarification", since it proposes a change to the semantics
> > > specified in RFC 6241. As far as I can see, it is clear from 6241 that
> > > the presence of the <persist-id> parameter does not affect the
> > > persistence, only the presence of the <persist> parameter does that.
> >
> > Hmm, I missed this detail.
> >
> > It is clearly not correct to say that the <persist-id> affects
> > persistence. So s/or <persist-id>// in the 4th and 5th paragraphs.
>
> Hm, right, the remainder of the change to the 5th paragraph should be
> kept (I originally misread it as *only* adding "or <persist-id>" there
> too).
>
> > Do you see any other issues with the proposed text?
>
> No, it seems fine - a useful clarification.
>
> > (An editorial change - the 4th para should be split into two, just as
> > in the original text)
>
> +1
>
> --Per
>
> > /martin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Furthermore, I'm afraid I fail to find any motivation for this change
> > > in the quoted message from Jonathan (as far as I can see, this message
> > > was not sent to the mailing list).
> > >
> > > --Per Hedeland
> > >
> > > > We have left the status of this report as Held for Document
> > > > Update.
> > > > Please let us know if any further action is necessary on our part.
> > > > The report itself is viewable at
> > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid3821.
> > > > Old (as in Jonathans original report):
> > > > If the session issuing a sequence of one or more
> > > > confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm
> > > > timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its
> > > > state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless
> > > > the last confirmed commit also included a <persist>
> > > > element.
> > > > If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
> > > > expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state
> > > > before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.
> > > > New (as updated by Jonathans email - see the last line of both
> > > > paragraphs):
> > > > If the session issuing a sequence of one or more
> > > > confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm
> > > > timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its
> > > > state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless
> > > > the last confirmed commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id>
> > > > element.
> > > > If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
> > > > expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state
> > > > before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the last
> > > > confirmed commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id> element.
> > > > Thank you.
> > > > RFC Editor/mf
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > I raised erratum 3821 to clarify the meaning of the term "confirmed
> > > > > commit" for those not familiar with the use of the term within
> > > > > JUNOS. Both the original text and the erratum include text that states
> > > > > If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
> > > > > expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state before
> > > > > the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.. I have since
> > > > > discovered the description of the persist leaf on page 102 that
> > > > > includes the statement, A persistent confirmed commit is not aborted
> > > > > if the NETCONF session terminates. The only way to abort a persistent
> > > > > confirmed commit is to let the timer expire, or to use the
> > > > > <cancel-commit> operation. Consequently, the replacement text should
> > > > > read:
> > > > > 8.4.1. Description
> > > > > The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will
> > > > > support the <cancel-commit> operation, the <confirmed>, <confirm-
> > > > > timeout>, <persist>, and <persist-id> parameters for the <commit>
> > > > > operation, and differentiate between a to be confirmed <commit>
> > > > > operation (a confirmed commit) and a confirming <commit>
> > > > > operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the <commit>
> > > > > operation.
> > > > > A confirmed <commit> operation MUST be reverted if a confirming
> > > > > commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600
> > > > > seconds = 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a <commit> operation
> > > > > without the <confirmed> parameter and, if successful, cannot be
> > > > > reverted. The timeout period can be adjusted with the <confirm-
> > > > > timeout> parameter. If a follow-up confirmed <commit> operation is
> > > > > issued before the timer expires, the timer is reset to the new value
> > > > > (600 seconds by default). Both the confirming commit and a follow-up
> > > > > confirmed <commit> operation MAY introduce additional changes to the
> > > > > configuration.
> > > > > If the <persist> element is not given in the confirmed commit
> > > > > operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be
> > > > > issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the
> > > > > <persist> element is given in the confirmed <commit> operation, a
> > > > > follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any
> > > > > session, and they MUST include a <persist-id> element with a value
> > > > > equal to the given value of the <persist> element.
> > > > > If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a <copy-
> > > > > config> from running to startup is also necessary to save the
> > > > > changes to startup. If the session issuing a sequence of one or more
> > > > > confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm
> > > > > timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its
> > > > > state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless
> > > > > the last confirmed commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id>
> > > > > element.
> > > > > If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
> > > > > expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state
> > > > > before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the last
> > > > > confirmed commit also included a <persist> or <persist-id> element.
> > > > > If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its
> > > > > configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the first in the
> > > > > current sequence of confirmed commits. To cancel the current
> > > > > sequence of confirmed commits and revert changes without waiting for
> > > > > the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly restore the
> > > > > configuration to its state before the sequence of confirmed commits
> > > > > was issued, by using the <cancel-commit> operation.
> > > > > Jonathan Hansford
> > > > On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:53 AM, RFC Errata System
> > > > <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The following errata report has been held for document update
> > > > > for RFC6241, "Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)".
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------
> > > > > You may review the report below and at:
> > > > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6241&eid=3821
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------
> > > > > Status: Held for Document Update
> > > > > Type: Editorial
> > > > >
> > > > > Reported by: Jonathan Hansford <jonathan@hansfords.net>
> > > > > Date Reported: 2013-12-06
> > > > > Held by: Benoit Claise (IESG)
> > > > >
> > > > > Section: 8.4.1
> > > > >
> > > > > Original Text
> > > > > -------------
> > > > > 8.4.1. Description
> > > > >
> > > > > The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will
> > > > > support the <cancel-commit> operation and the <confirmed>,
> > > > > <confirm-timeout>, <persist>, and <persist-id> parameters for the
> > > > > <commit> operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the
> > > > > <commit> operation.
> > > > >
> > > > > A confirmed <commit> operation MUST be reverted if a confirming
> > > > > commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600
> > > > > seconds = 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a <commit> operation
> > > > > without the <confirmed> parameter. The timeout period can be
> > > > > adjusted with the <confirm-timeout> parameter. If a follow-up
> > > > > confirmed <commit> operation is issued before the timer expires, the
> > > > > timer is reset to the new value (600 seconds by default). Both the
> > > > > confirming commit and a follow-up confirmed <commit> operation MAY
> > > > > introduce additional changes to the configuration.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the <persist> element is not given in the confirmed commit
> > > > > operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be
> > > > > issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the
> > > > > <persist> element is given in the confirmed <commit> operation, a
> > > > > follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any
> > > > > session, and they MUST include a <persist-id> element with a value
> > > > > equal to the given value of the <persist> element.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a
> > > > > <copy-config> from running to startup is also necessary to save the
> > > > > changes to startup.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the session issuing the confirmed commit is terminated for any
> > > > > reason before the confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore
> > > > > the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit was
> > > > > issued, unless the confirmed commit also included a <persist>
> > > > > element.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
> > > > > expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state
> > > > > before the confirmed commit was issued.
> > > > >
> > > > > If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its
> > > > > configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the confirmed
> > > > > commit. To cancel a confirmed commit and revert changes without
> > > > > waiting for the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly
> > > > > restore the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit
> > > > > was issued, by using the <cancel-commit> operation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Corrected Text
> > > > > --------------
> > > > > 8.4.1. Description
> > > > >
> > > > > The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will
> > > > > support the <cancel-commit> operation, the <confirmed>, <confirm-
> > > > > timeout>, <persist>, and <persist-id> parameters for the <commit>
> > > > > operation, and differentiate between a to be confirmed <commit>
> > > > > operation (a confirmed commit) and a confirming <commit>
> > > > > operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the <commit>
> > > > > operation.
> > > > >
> > > > > A confirmed <commit> operation MUST be reverted if a confirming
> > > > > commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600
> > > > > seconds = 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a <commit> operation
> > > > > without the <confirmed> parameter and, if successful, cannot be
> > > > > reverted. The timeout period can be adjusted with the <confirm-
> > > > > timeout> parameter. If a follow-up confirmed <commit> operation is
> > > > > issued before the timer expires, the timer is reset to the new value
> > > > > (600 seconds by default). Both the confirming commit and a follow-up
> > > > > confirmed <commit> operation MAY introduce additional changes to the
> > > > > configuration.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the <persist> element is not given in the confirmed commit
> > > > > operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be
> > > > > issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the
> > > > > <persist> element is given in the confirmed <commit> operation, a
> > > > > follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any
> > > > > session, and they MUST include a <persist-id> element with a value
> > > > > equal to the given value of the <persist> element.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a <copy-
> > > > > config> from running to startup is also necessary to save the
> > > > > changes to startup. If the session issuing a sequence of one or more
> > > > > confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm
> > > > > timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its
> > > > > state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless
> > > > > the last confirmed commit also included a <persist> element.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout
> > > > > expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state
> > > > > before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.
> > > > >
> > > > > If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its
> > > > > configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the first in the
> > > > > current sequence of confirmed commits. To cancel the current
> > > > > sequence of confirmed commits and revert changes without waiting for
> > > > > the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly restore the
> > > > > configuration to its state before the sequence of confirmed commits
> > > > > was issued, by using the <cancel-commit> operation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Notes
> > > > > -----
> > > > > This erratum seeks to clarify the meaning of the term "confirmed
> > > > > commit" for those not familiar with the use of the term within
> > > > > JUNOS. In particular, that the use of "confirmed" is not in the sense
> > > > > of the adjective (meaning "firmly established") but rather that the
> > > > > commit needs to be confirmed. It also emphasises that a "confirming
> > > > > commit" cannot be reverted. Finally it identifies that it is possible
> > > > > to have a sequence of "confirmed commits" prior to a "confirming
> > > > > commit" and that, should no "confirming commit" be received, the
> > > > > configuration will revert to the state prior to the first "confirmed
> > > > > commit" in the sequence.
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------
> > > > > RFC6241 (draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-10)
> > > > > --------------------------------------
> > > > > Title : Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)
> > > > > Publication Date : June 2011
> > > > > Author(s) : R. Enns, Ed., M. Bjorklund, Ed., J. Schoenwaelder, Ed.,
> > > > > A. Bierman, Ed.
> > > > > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD
> > > > > Source : Network Configuration
> > > > > Area : Operations and Management
> > > > > Stream : IETF
> > > > > Verifying Party : IESG
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > netconf mailing list
> > > > netconf@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > netconf mailing list
> > > netconf@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
> > >
>

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<html xmlns=3D=22http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml=22>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D=22messageBodySection=22>Re &lt;persist&gt; and &lt;persist-i=
d&gt;, the point I was trying to get across is, since there can be a sequ=
ence of commits after a confirmed commit and before the final confirming =
commit, it would not necessarily be the last commit before session termin=
ation that makes the confirmed commit persistent. Perhaps =22unless the l=
ast confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt; or &lt;persist-id&gt=
; element=22 would be better worded as =22unless the confirmed commit was=
 persistent=22.</div>
<div name=3D=22messageSignatureSection=22><br />
Jonathan<br />
<br />
=3DO)</div>
<div name=3D=22messageReplySection=22>On 21 =46eb 2019, 13:48 +0000, Per =
Hedeland &lt;per=40hedeland.org&gt;, wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =231abc9c;=22>On 2019-02-21 14:22, Martin Bj=
orklund wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =23e67e22;=22>Hi,<br />
<br />
Per Hedeland &lt;per=40hedeland.org&gt; wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =233498db;=22>On 2019-02-20 01:44, Megan =46=
erguson wrote:<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =23d35400;=22>Jonathan and Benoit,<br />
We have edited the =22corrected text in this errata report as<br />
suggested by Jonathan.<br /></blockquote>
<br />
I don't know if this change - i.e. the addition of the text =22or<br />
&lt;persist-id&gt;=22 in two places - should affect the status of the<br =
/>
document, but it seems to me that it can then no longer be considered<br =
/>
a =22clarification=22, since it proposes a change to the semantics<br />
specified in R=46C 6241. As far as I can see, it is clear from 6241 that<=
br />
the presence of the &lt;persist-id&gt; parameter does not affect the<br /=
>
persistence, only the presence of the &lt;persist&gt; parameter does that=
.<br /></blockquote>
<br />
Hmm, I missed this detail.<br />
<br />
It is clearly not correct to say that the &lt;persist-id&gt; affects<br /=
>
persistence. So s/or &lt;persist-id&gt;// in the 4th and 5th paragraphs.<=
br /></blockquote>
<br />
Hm, right, the remainder of the change to the 5th paragraph should be<br =
/>
kept (I originally misread it as *only* adding =22or &lt;persist-id&gt;=22=
 there<br />
too).<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =23e67e22;=22>Do you see any other issues wi=
th the proposed text=3F<br /></blockquote>
<br />
No, it seems fine - a useful clarification.<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =23e67e22;=22>(An editorial change - the 4th=
 para should be split into two, just as<br />
in the original text)<br /></blockquote>
<br />
+1<br />
<br />
--Per<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =23e67e22;=22>/martin<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =233498db;=22><br />
=46urthermore, I'm afraid I fail to find any motivation for this change<b=
r />
in the quoted message from Jonathan (as far as I can see, this message<br=
 />
was not sent to the mailing list).<br />
<br />
--Per Hedeland<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =23d35400;=22>We have left the status of thi=
s report as Held for Document<br />
Update.<br />
Please let us know if any further action is necessary on our part.<br />
The report itself is viewable at<br />
https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid3821.<br />
Old (as in Jonathans original report):<br />
If the session issuing a sequence of one or more<br />
confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm<br />
timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its<br />
state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless<br />
the last confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt;<br />
element.<br />
If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout<br />
expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state<br />
before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.<br />
New (as updated by Jonathans email - see the last line of both<br />
paragraphs):<br />
If the session issuing a sequence of one or more<br />
confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm<br />
timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its<br />
state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless<br />
the last confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt; or &lt;persist-=
id&gt;<br />
element.<br />
If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout<br />
expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state<br />
before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the last<br /=
>
confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt; or &lt;persist-id&gt; el=
ement.<br />
Thank you.<br />
R=46C Editor/mf<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =2334495e;=22>Hi,<br />
I raised erratum 3821 to clarify the meaning of the term =22confirmed<br =
/>
commit=22 for those not familiar with the use of the term within<br />
JUNOS. Both the original text and the erratum include text that states<br=
 />
If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout<br />
expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state before<br=
 />
the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.. I have since<br />
discovered the description of the persist leaf on page 102 that<br />
includes the statement, A persistent confirmed commit is not aborted<br /=
>
if the NETCON=46 session terminates. The only way to abort a persistent<b=
r />
confirmed commit is to let the timer expire, or to use the<br />
&lt;cancel-commit&gt; operation. Consequently, the replacement text shoul=
d<br />
read:<br />
8.4.1. Description<br />
The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will<br />=

support the &lt;cancel-commit&gt; operation, the &lt;confirmed&gt;, &lt;c=
onfirm-<br />
timeout&gt;, &lt;persist&gt;, and &lt;persist-id&gt; parameters for the &=
lt;commit&gt;<br />
operation, and differentiate between a to be confirmed &lt;commit&gt;<br =
/>
operation (a confirmed commit) and a confirming &lt;commit&gt;<br />
operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the &lt;commit&gt;<br /=
>
operation.<br />
A confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation MUST be reverted if a confirming<br =
/>
commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600<br />
seconds =3D 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a &lt;commit&gt; operat=
ion<br />
without the &lt;confirmed&gt; parameter and, if successful, cannot be<br =
/>
reverted. The timeout period can be adjusted with the &lt;confirm-<br />
timeout&gt; parameter. If a follow-up confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation =
is<br />
issued before the timer expires, the timer is reset to the new value<br /=
>
(600 seconds by default). Both the confirming commit and a follow-up<br /=
>
confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation MAY introduce additional changes to th=
e<br />
configuration.<br />
If the &lt;persist&gt; element is not given in the confirmed commit<br />=

operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be<br />
issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the<br />=

&lt;persist&gt; element is given in the confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operatio=
n, a<br />
follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any<br />
session, and they MUST include a &lt;persist-id&gt; element with a value<=
br />
equal to the given value of the &lt;persist&gt; element.<br />
If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a &lt;copy-<br />
config&gt; from running to startup is also necessary to save the<br />
changes to startup. If the session issuing a sequence of one or more<br /=
>
confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm<br />
timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its<br />
state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless<br />
the last confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt; or &lt;persist-=
id&gt;<br />
element.<br />
If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout<br />
expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state<br />
before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless the last<br /=
>
confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt; or &lt;persist-id&gt; el=
ement.<br />
If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its<br />
configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the first in the<br /=
>
current sequence of confirmed commits. To cancel the current<br />
sequence of confirmed commits and revert changes without waiting for<br /=
>
the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly restore the<br /=
>
configuration to its state before the sequence of confirmed commits<br />=

was issued, by using the &lt;cancel-commit&gt; operation.<br />
Jonathan Hansford<br /></blockquote>
On Jan 13, 2014, at 7:53 AM, R=46C Errata System<br />
&lt;rfc-editor=40rfc-editor.org&gt; wrote:<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D=22cite=22 style=3D=22margin: 5px 5px; padding-left: 1=
0px; border-left: thin solid =2334495e;=22>The following errata report ha=
s been held for document update<br />
for R=46C6241, =22Network Configuration Protocol (NETCON=46)=22.<br />
<br />
--------------------------------------<br />
You may review the report below and at:<br />
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata=5Fsearch.php=3Frfc=3D6241&amp;eid=3D3821=
<br />
<br />
--------------------------------------<br />
Status: Held for Document Update<br />
Type: Editorial<br />
<br />
Reported by: Jonathan Hansford &lt;jonathan=40hansfords.net&gt;<br />
Date Reported: 2013-12-06<br />
Held by: Benoit Claise (IESG)<br />
<br />
Section: 8.4.1<br />
<br />
Original Text<br />
-------------<br />
8.4.1. Description<br />
<br />
The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will<br />=

support the &lt;cancel-commit&gt; operation and the &lt;confirmed&gt;,<br=
 />
&lt;confirm-timeout&gt;, &lt;persist&gt;, and &lt;persist-id&gt; paramete=
rs for the<br />
&lt;commit&gt; operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the<br /=
>
&lt;commit&gt; operation.<br />
<br />
A confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation MUST be reverted if a confirming<br =
/>
commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600<br />
seconds =3D 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a &lt;commit&gt; operat=
ion<br />
without the &lt;confirmed&gt; parameter. The timeout period can be<br />
adjusted with the &lt;confirm-timeout&gt; parameter. If a follow-up<br />=

confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation is issued before the timer expires, th=
e<br />
timer is reset to the new value (600 seconds by default). Both the<br />
confirming commit and a follow-up confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation MAY<=
br />
introduce additional changes to the configuration.<br />
<br />
If the &lt;persist&gt; element is not given in the confirmed commit<br />=

operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be<br />
issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the<br />=

&lt;persist&gt; element is given in the confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operatio=
n, a<br />
follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any<br />
session, and they MUST include a &lt;persist-id&gt; element with a value<=
br />
equal to the given value of the &lt;persist&gt; element.<br />
<br />
If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a<br />
&lt;copy-config&gt; from running to startup is also necessary to save the=
<br />
changes to startup.<br />
<br />
If the session issuing the confirmed commit is terminated for any<br />
reason before the confirm timeout expires, the server MUST restore<br />
the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit was<br />
issued, unless the confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt;<br />=

element.<br />
<br />
If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout<br />
expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state<br />
before the confirmed commit was issued.<br />
<br />
If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its<br />
configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the confirmed<br />
commit. To cancel a confirmed commit and revert changes without<br />
waiting for the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly<br /=
>
restore the configuration to its state before the confirmed commit<br />
was issued, by using the &lt;cancel-commit&gt; operation.<br />
<br />
Corrected Text<br />
--------------<br />
8.4.1. Description<br />
<br />
The :confirmed-commit:1.1 capability indicates that the server will<br />=

support the &lt;cancel-commit&gt; operation, the &lt;confirmed&gt;, &lt;c=
onfirm-<br />
timeout&gt;, &lt;persist&gt;, and &lt;persist-id&gt; parameters for the &=
lt;commit&gt;<br />
operation, and differentiate between a to be confirmed &lt;commit&gt;<br =
/>
operation (a confirmed commit) and a confirming &lt;commit&gt;<br />
operation. See Section 8.3 for further details on the &lt;commit&gt;<br /=
>
operation.<br />
<br />
A confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation MUST be reverted if a confirming<br =
/>
commit is not issued within the timeout period (by default 600<br />
seconds =3D 10 minutes). The confirming commit is a &lt;commit&gt; operat=
ion<br />
without the &lt;confirmed&gt; parameter and, if successful, cannot be<br =
/>
reverted. The timeout period can be adjusted with the &lt;confirm-<br />
timeout&gt; parameter. If a follow-up confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation =
is<br />
issued before the timer expires, the timer is reset to the new value<br /=
>
(600 seconds by default). Both the confirming commit and a follow-up<br /=
>
confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operation MAY introduce additional changes to th=
e<br />
configuration.<br />
<br />
If the &lt;persist&gt; element is not given in the confirmed commit<br />=

operation, any follow-up commit and the confirming commit MUST be<br />
issued on the same session that issued the confirmed commit. If the<br />=

&lt;persist&gt; element is given in the confirmed &lt;commit&gt; operatio=
n, a<br />
follow-up commit and the confirming commit can be given on any<br />
session, and they MUST include a &lt;persist-id&gt; element with a value<=
br />
equal to the given value of the &lt;persist&gt; element.<br />
<br />
If the server also advertises the :startup capability, a &lt;copy-<br />
config&gt; from running to startup is also necessary to save the<br />
changes to startup. If the session issuing a sequence of one or more<br /=
>
confirmed commits is terminated for any reason before the confirm<br />
timeout expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its<br />
state before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued, unless<br />
the last confirmed commit also included a &lt;persist&gt; element.<br />
<br />
If the device reboots for any reason before the confirm timeout<br />
expires, the server MUST restore the configuration to its state<br />
before the sequence of confirmed commits was issued.<br />
<br />
If a confirming commit is not issued, the device will revert its<br />
configuration to the state prior to the issuance of the first in the<br /=
>
current sequence of confirmed commits. To cancel the current<br />
sequence of confirmed commits and revert changes without waiting for<br /=
>
the confirm timeout to expire, the client can explicitly restore the<br /=
>
configuration to its state before the sequence of confirmed commits<br />=

was issued, by using the &lt;cancel-commit&gt; operation.<br />
<br />
Notes<br />
-----<br />
This erratum seeks to clarify the meaning of the term =22confirmed<br />
commit=22 for those not familiar with the use of the term within<br />
JUNOS. In particular, that the use of =22confirmed=22 is not in the sense=
<br />
of the adjective (meaning =22firmly established=22) but rather that the<b=
r />
commit needs to be confirmed. It also emphasises that a =22confirming<br =
/>
commit=22 cannot be reverted. =46inally it identifies that it is possible=
<br />
to have a sequence of =22confirmed commits=22 prior to a =22confirming<br=
 />
commit=22 and that, should no =22confirming commit=22 be received, the<br=
 />
configuration will revert to the state prior to the first =22confirmed<br=
 />
commit=22 in the sequence.<br />
<br />
--------------------------------------<br />
R=46C6241 (draft-ietf-netconf-4741bis-10)<br />
--------------------------------------<br />
Title : Network Configuration Protocol (NETCON=46)<br />
Publication Date : June 2011<br />
Author(s) : R. Enns, Ed., M. Bjorklund, Ed., J. Schoenwaelder, Ed.,<br />=

A. Bierman, Ed.<br />
Category : PROPOSED STANDARD<br />
Source : Network Configuration<br />
Area : Operations and Management<br />
Stream : IET=46<br />
Verifying Party : IESG<br />
<br /></blockquote>
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F<br />
netconf mailing list<br />
netconf=40ietf.org<br />
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<br />
<br /></blockquote>
<br />
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=
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netconf mailing list<br />
netconf=40ietf.org<br />
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf<br />
<br /></blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br /></blockquote>
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, "tsv-art@ietf.org" <tsv-art@ietf.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 19:24:06 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Genart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Aanchal Malhotra <aanchal4@bu.edu>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: Dan Romascanu <dromasca@gmail.com>, "ops-dir@ietf.org" <ops-dir@ietf.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 21:31:35 +0000
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From: Ravi Singh <ravis@juniper.net>
To: Routing ADs <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
CC: Routing Directorate <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:05:30 +0000
In-Reply-To: <20190408154613.ytibxwvjurfcwinp@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>
Cc: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
References: <01000169fa45ea88-505cd325-94b7-4d48-a529-448a9905f534-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190408154613.ytibxwvjurfcwinp@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] overview of updates and current issues
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Hi Juergen,

Thanks for your response.


>> Current Issues:
>>=20
>> 1. Regarding the "demux containers":
>>=20
>>     Pros:
>>       - now the NC/RC models look better
>>       - a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write
>>=20
>>     Cons:
>>       - seems overbearing for general use
>>=20
>>   Question:
>>=20
>>     Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"
>>     statement in the NC/RC models with a container?
>>=20
>>        Pros: maximum flexibility
>>        Cons: less consistency?
>=20
> What exactly are the demux containers? You mean the
> <tcp-client-parameters> and <tls-client-parameters> containers?

Yes.  This is what what meant by:

   "Added a top-level "demux container" inside the top-level grouping.
    By "demux", I'm referring to the namespace problem discussed @104."

about 10 lines above.



> I have no strong opinion, they may be ok although things get a bit =
more verbose.

On the "Cons" side, I'm calling the containers =
"<protocol>-<client/server>-parameters".  I question is if this is a =
good name in all contexts.  By removing the "demux container",  it lets =
the consumer decide what to call it.  This brings us to the "less =
consistency?" comment;  of course there would be little consistency but, =
do we care?

Regarding "a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write", I =
don't see anywhere in RFC 8341 that nacm:default-deny-write can't be =
used in a grouping, but it will impact the parent...  If the parent has =
other descendents besides from the grouping, those descendents would =
likely be impacted too, right?   Do we care?  If we put =
nacm:default-deny-write under the grouping statement, then I think that =
it subtly enforces consumers to create their own wrapper containers (as =
opposed to mixing the descendents in with other nodes).   Alternately, =
we could float the "if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the =
grouping.  Not ideal, but works...?


>> 2. Only in the RESTCONF draft, http proxy-server weirdness
>>=20
>>   a) in the "ietf-restconf-client", there's an unwanted =
"proxy-server"
>>      definition  (middle of page 43):
>>=20
>>      =
/restconf-client/listen/endpoint/https/http-client-parameters/proxy-server=

>>=20
>>      An HTTP client that receives a call-home connection does NOT =
need
>>      to initiate a connection and therefore there never is a desire =
to
>>      configure a proxy server, but here it is!
>>=20
>>      It's here because the "ieft-http-client" grouping defines it, =
but
>>      when that grouping is used, neither "refine" nor "augment" can
>>      remove the definition.
>>=20
>>      Sure, a "must" could disable it, but it still shows in the tree
>>      diagram, which is undesirable...
>>=20
>>=20
>>  b)in the "ietf-restconf-server", there's a missing "proxy-server"
>>      definition  (bottom of page 48 ):
>>=20
>>      /restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client/endpoints/endpoint/\
>>      https/http-client-parameters/<missing:proxy-server/>
>>=20
>>      An HTTP server that establishes a call-home connection needs
>>      to initiate a connection and therefore there is a desire to
>>      configure a proxy server, but the config node is missing!
>>=20
>>      This is because the "ieft-http-server" grouping doesn't
>>      defines a proxy-server node (because servers typically
>>      never need to go through a proxy so, when that grouping
>>      is used, the definition is missing.
>>=20
>>      Sure, we could augment it in, but coupled with the above,
>>      maybe there's a better answer?
>>=20
>>  What to do?
>=20
> No idea.

This remains an open issue.


>> 3. In either the NETCONF and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all
>>   where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they refer to
>>   nodes that are conditional by "if-feature" statements?
>>=20
>>      i.e., search for "case periodic-connection"
>>=20
>>   Should the "must" statements be located somewhere else?
>=20
> I actually wonder whether this must is really desirable. What breaks
> if I have TCP keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home =
connection?
> Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken firewall.

The point of the periodic connection, from which it gets its name, is =
that it "frequently" sets-up and tears-down.  Thus is self-healing in =
the case of a network drop.

Our WG's primary use-case for keepalives is a device that has been =
configured to periodically call-home (perhaps every midnight), in case =
its controller application has any config pending for it (depositing =
logs is assumed to be out-of-band).    One can imagine the controller =
performing a number of steps, potentially with delays between the steps.

The ietf-[net/rest]conf-server-grouping groupings say this about the =
"periodic-connection" presence container (under "call-home"):

                     "Periodically connect to the NETCONF client.  The
                      NETCONF client should close the underlying TCP
                      connection upon completing planned activities.

So, if the connection is dropped (do to a lack a keepalives), should the =
server interpret that as "the client completed planned activities", and =
therefore doesn't need to connect again until next midnight?


Separately (not related to the above), the =
ietf-[net/rest]conf-client-grouping groupings say (under "initiate"):

                     "Periodically connect to the NETCONF server.  The
                      NETCONF server should close the underlying TCP
                      connection upon completing planned activities.

which might be right, but somehow it feels odd that the client wouldn't =
always do close the connection...




>> 4) Only in the NETCONF draft, Section 5 contains the old  "Design
>>   Considerations" text from ~5 years ago.
>>=20
>>   The idea of removing is was discussed a while back, and someone
>>   said it was worth keeping...
>>=20
>>   I'm thinking again to remove it, but rather to deleting it, I'm
>>   now thinking maybe we could *move* it to an Informational draft:
>>=20
>>     "Architecture for the Collection of Client and Server Models"
>>=20
>>   that could also contain a picture like this:
>>=20
>>                                        crypto-types
>>                                          ^      ^
>>                                         /        \
>>                                        /          \
>>                              trust-anchors       keystore
>>                                 ^      ^------+    ^
>>                                 |              \   |
>>                                 |      +-----------+
>>                                 |     /          \
>> tcp-client-server     ssh-client-server      tls-client-server     =
http-client-server
>>       ^      ^              ^                  ^           ^          =
     ^
>>       |      |              |                  |           |          =
     |
>>       |      |              |       +----------+           |          =
     |
>>       |      |              |       |                      |          =
     |
>>       |      |              |       |                      |          =
     |
>>       |      +--------------|-------|------------+         |          =
     |
>>       |                     |       |            |         |          =
     |
>>       |                     |       |            |         |          =
     |
>>       +--------------+      |       |            |         |      =
+--------+
>>                      |      |       |            |         |      |
>>                      |      |       |            |         |      |
>>                   netconf-client-server        restconf-client-server
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>  If there is desire, it would be best to do it now so that all of
>>  the client/server drafts could reference it.  Thus, whichever draft
>>  a reader begins with, their attention is drawn to the collection and
>>  thus they can see how the part fits into the whole.
>=20
> I like the modularization you are doing but perhaps the problem is
> that the packaging of this stuff into documents makes things hard to
> follow. For example, why not define crypto-types, trust-anchors, and
> keystore into one document? Then this document could explain the top
> part of your figure. One could perhaps also put tcp-client-server,
> tls-client-server, and http-client-server together, perhaps even
> adding ssh-client-server to it. Note that you always revise the
> modules are different speeds later on since you can have future RFCs
> take over control over a specific module.

I'm not interested in doing this work, especially given where we are =
now.   If there is consensus in the WG, I request someone take over =
being Editor for awhile.


> That said, I believe we need to document the design of this somewhere
> so that others use it instead of rolling their own solutions. So my
> preference likely is to do both, merge some closely related modules
> into single documents and have a document that explains the overall
> design and how it is to be used by others.


I support "have a document that explains the overall design and how it =
is to be used by others", but I would like someone else to pick up the =
pen.  In the meanwhile, I think that it is safe to delete Section 5 =
(Design Considerations) from the netconf-client-server draft.   Someone =
can grab it from the archives when needed.


Kent



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Hi Juergen,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for your response.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Current Issues:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">1. Regarding the =
"demux containers":<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pros:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- now the NC/RC models look =
better<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- a convenient =
place to have a nacm:default-deny-write<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cons:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- seems overbearing for general =
use<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Question:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it be better to revert and =
instead wrap each "uses"<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;statement in the NC/RC models with a =
container?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pros: maximum flexibility<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cons: less =
consistency?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">What exactly are =
the demux containers? You mean the<br =
class=3D"">&lt;tcp-client-parameters&gt; and =
&lt;tls-client-parameters&gt; containers? =
</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Yes. &nbsp;This =
is what what meant by:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;"Added a top-level "demux container" inside the top-level =
grouping.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: =
13px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: =
13px;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; By "demux", I'm referring to the =
namespace problem discussed @104."</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=3D""></div><div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 13px;" class=3D"">about 10 lines =
above.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 13px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I have&nbsp;no strong opinion, they may be ok =
although things get a bit more&nbsp;verbose.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>On =
the "Cons" side, I'm calling the containers =
"&lt;protocol&gt;-&lt;client/server&gt;-parameters". &nbsp;I question is =
if this is a good name in all contexts. &nbsp;By removing the "demux =
container", &nbsp;it lets the consumer decide what to call it. =
&nbsp;This brings us to the "less consistency?" comment; &nbsp;of course =
there would be little consistency but, do we care?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regarding "a convenient place to have a =
nacm:default-deny-write", I don't see anywhere in RFC 8341 that =
nacm:default-deny-write can't be used in a grouping, but it will impact =
the parent... &nbsp;If the parent has other descendents besides from the =
grouping, those descendents would likely be impacted too, right? &nbsp; =
Do we care? &nbsp;If we put&nbsp;nacm:default-deny-write under the =
grouping statement, then I think that it subtly enforces consumers to =
create their own wrapper containers (as opposed to mixing the =
descendents in with other nodes). &nbsp; Alternately, we could float the =
"if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the grouping. =
&nbsp;Not ideal, but works...?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">2. Only in the RESTCONF =
draft, http proxy-server weirdness<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;a) in the "ietf-restconf-client", there's an unwanted =
"proxy-server"<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;definition =
&nbsp;(middle of page 43):<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/restconf-client/listen/endpoint/https/http-=
client-parameters/proxy-server<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;An HTTP client that receives a call-home =
connection does NOT need<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to =
initiate a connection and therefore there never is a desire to<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;configure a proxy server, but =
here it is!<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It's here because the "ieft-http-client" =
grouping defines it, but<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;when that grouping is used, neither =
"refine" nor "augment" can<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;remove the definition.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sure, a "must" could disable =
it, but it still shows in the tree<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;diagram, which is undesirable...<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;b)in the =
"ietf-restconf-server", there's a missing "proxy-server"<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;definition &nbsp;(bottom of page 48 ):<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client/e=
ndpoints/endpoint/\<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;https/http-client-parameters/&lt;missing:pro=
xy-server/&gt;<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;An HTTP server that establishes a =
call-home connection needs<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to initiate a connection and therefore =
there is a desire to<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;configure a proxy server, but the config =
node is missing!<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is because the "ieft-http-server" =
grouping doesn't<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;defines a =
proxy-server node (because servers typically<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;never need to go through a proxy so, when =
that grouping<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;is used, the =
definition is missing.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sure, we could augment it in, but coupled =
with the above,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;maybe =
there's a better answer?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;What to =
do?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">No idea.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This =
remains an open issue.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">3. In either the NETCONF =
and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they =
refer to<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;nodes that are conditional by =
"if-feature" statements?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i.e., search for "case =
periodic-connection"<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Should =
the "must" statements be located somewhere else?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I actually wonder whether this =
must is really desirable. What breaks<br class=3D"">if I have TCP =
keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home connection?<br =
class=3D"">Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken =
firewall.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The point of the periodic connection, from which =
it gets its name, is that it "frequently" sets-up and tears-down. =
&nbsp;Thus is self-healing in the case of a network drop.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Our WG's primary use-case for keepalives is a =
device that has been configured to periodically call-home (perhaps every =
midnight), in case its controller application has any config pending for =
it (depositing logs is assumed to be out-of-band). &nbsp; &nbsp;One can =
imagine the controller performing a number of steps, potentially with =
delays between the steps.</div><div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
ietf-[net/rest]conf-server-grouping groupings say this about the =
"periodic-connection" presence container (under "call-home"):</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"Periodically =
connect to the NETCONF client. &nbsp;The</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
NETCONF client should close the underlying TCP</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
connection upon completing planned activities.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>So, if the connection is dropped (do to a =
lack a keepalives), should the server interpret that as "the client =
completed planned activities", and therefore doesn't need to connect =
again until next midnight?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Separately (not related to the above), the =
ietf-[net/rest]conf-client-grouping groupings say (under =
"initiate"):</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;"Periodically connect to the NETCONF server. &nbsp;The</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NETCONF server should close the underlying =
TCP</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; connection upon completing planned =
activities.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>which might be right, =
but somehow it feels odd that the client wouldn't always do close the =
connection...</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">4) Only in the NETCONF =
draft, Section 5 contains the old &nbsp;"Design<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Considerations" text from ~5 years ago.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;The idea of removing is was discussed a while =
back, and someone<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;said it was worth =
keeping...<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking again =
to remove it, but rather to deleting it, I'm<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;now thinking maybe we could *move* it to an Informational =
draft:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Architecture for the Collection of Client and =
Server Models"<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;that could also =
contain a picture like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;crypto-types<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br =
class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;/ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br =
class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;trust-anchors =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;keystore<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^------+ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;\ &nbsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+-----------+<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br class=3D""> =
tcp-client-server &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ssh-client-server =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;tls-client-server =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;http-client-server<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;^ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;^<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+----------+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------------|-------|------------+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------------+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------+<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;netconf-client-server =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;restconf-client-server<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;If there is desire, it would be best to do it now so that all =
of<br class=3D""> &nbsp;the client/server drafts could reference it. =
&nbsp;Thus, whichever draft<br class=3D""> &nbsp;a reader begins with, =
their attention is drawn to the collection and<br class=3D""> &nbsp;thus =
they can see how the part fits into the whole.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I like the modularization you are =
doing but perhaps the problem is<br class=3D"">that the packaging of =
this stuff into documents makes things hard to<br class=3D"">follow. For =
example, why not define crypto-types, trust-anchors, and<br =
class=3D"">keystore into one document? Then this document could explain =
the top<br class=3D"">part of your figure. One could perhaps also put =
tcp-client-server,<br class=3D"">tls-client-server, and =
http-client-server together, perhaps even<br class=3D"">adding =
ssh-client-server to it. Note that you always revise the<br =
class=3D"">modules are different speeds later on since you can have =
future RFCs<br class=3D"">take over control over a specific module.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I'm =
not interested in doing this work, especially given where we are now. =
&nbsp; If there is consensus in the WG, I request someone take over =
being Editor for awhile.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">That said, I believe we need to document the design of this =
somewhere<br class=3D"">so that others use it instead of rolling their =
own solutions. So my<br class=3D"">preference likely is to do both, =
merge some closely related modules<br class=3D"">into single documents =
and have a document that explains the overall<br class=3D"">design and =
how it is to be used by others.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I support "have a =
document that explains the overall design and how it is to be used by =
others", but I would like someone else to pick up the pen. &nbsp;In the =
meanwhile, I think that it is safe to delete Section 5 (Design =
Considerations) from the netconf-client-server draft. &nbsp; Someone can =
grab it from the archives when needed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Kent</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_B19D34EF-32DA-49C6-AD8C-BFD36C845ADB--


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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 23:34:48 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] overview of updates and current issues
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Inline...

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:05:30PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> 
> >> Current Issues:
> >> 
> >> 1. Regarding the "demux containers":
> >> 
> >>     Pros:
> >>       - now the NC/RC models look better
> >>       - a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write
> >> 
> >>     Cons:
> >>       - seems overbearing for general use
> >> 
> >>   Question:
> >> 
> >>     Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"
> >>     statement in the NC/RC models with a container?
> >> 
> >>        Pros: maximum flexibility
> >>        Cons: less consistency?
> > 
> > What exactly are the demux containers? You mean the
> > <tcp-client-parameters> and <tls-client-parameters> containers?
> 
> Yes.  This is what what meant by:
> 
>    "Added a top-level "demux container" inside the top-level grouping.
>     By "demux", I'm referring to the namespace problem discussed @104."
> 
> about 10 lines above.
> 
> 
> 
> > I have no strong opinion, they may be ok although things get a bit more verbose.
> 
> On the "Cons" side, I'm calling the containers "<protocol>-<client/server>-parameters".  I question is if this is a good name in all contexts.  By removing the "demux container",  it lets the consumer decide what to call it.  This brings us to the "less consistency?" comment;  of course there would be little consistency but, do we care?
> 
> Regarding "a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write", I don't see anywhere in RFC 8341 that nacm:default-deny-write can't be used in a grouping, but it will impact the parent...  If the parent has other descendents besides from the grouping, those descendents would likely be impacted too, right?   Do we care?  If we put nacm:default-deny-write under the grouping statement, then I think that it subtly enforces consumers to create their own wrapper containers (as opposed to mixing the descendents in with other nodes).   Alternately, we could float the "if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the grouping.  Not ideal, but works...?
>

Perhaps instead of being tricky (subtly enforcing consumers to create
their own wrapper), why not move the nacm:default-deny-write to the
leafs? This seems less subtle and more robust.
 
> >> 3. In either the NETCONF and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all
> >>   where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they refer to
> >>   nodes that are conditional by "if-feature" statements?
> >> 
> >>      i.e., search for "case periodic-connection"
> >> 
> >>   Should the "must" statements be located somewhere else?
> > 
> > I actually wonder whether this must is really desirable. What breaks
> > if I have TCP keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home connection?
> > Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken firewall.
> 
> The point of the periodic connection, from which it gets its name, is that it "frequently" sets-up and tears-down.  Thus is self-healing in the case of a network drop.
> 
> Our WG's primary use-case for keepalives is a device that has been configured to periodically call-home (perhaps every midnight), in case its controller application has any config pending for it (depositing logs is assumed to be out-of-band).    One can imagine the controller performing a number of steps, potentially with delays between the steps.

The point is that we do not know what will happen once the server has
called home - so how can we be sure that keep alives never make sense
with call-home?

> The ietf-[net/rest]conf-server-grouping groupings say this about the "periodic-connection" presence container (under "call-home"):
> 
>                      "Periodically connect to the NETCONF client.  The
>                       NETCONF client should close the underlying TCP
>                       connection upon completing planned activities.
> 
> So, if the connection is dropped (do to a lack a keepalives), should the server interpret that as "the client completed planned activities", and therefore doesn't need to connect again until next midnight?

The server likely does not care, at least likely not more than without
call-home. I assume that keep alives are more interesting for a client
that is not constantly talking to the server but likes to keep the
session open (for whatever reason).

> Separately (not related to the above), the ietf-[net/rest]conf-client-grouping groupings say (under "initiate"):
> 
>                      "Periodically connect to the NETCONF server.  The
>                       NETCONF server should close the underlying TCP
>                       connection upon completing planned activities.
> 
> which might be right, but somehow it feels odd that the client wouldn't always do close the connection...
>

For the use cases I have in mind for this, the server would not really
know when to close the connection since the client would take control
over what is going on. This may, however, be different from a
call-home to stream notifications. Perhaps we should say less.

One thing that comes to mind is whether a new callhome attempt should
be made in situations where the previous callhome is still alive. Do
we want to say something about this or not?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Ravi Singh <ravis@juniper.net>, Routing ADs <rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>
CC: Routing Directorate <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications
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Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 17:56:53 +0000
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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> On Apr 15, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
> Inline...
>=20
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:05:30PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
>>=20
>>>> Current Issues:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1. Regarding the "demux containers":
>>>>=20
>>>>    Pros:
>>>>      - now the NC/RC models look better
>>>>      - a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write
>>>>=20
>>>>    Cons:
>>>>      - seems overbearing for general use
>>>>=20
>>>>  Question:
>>>>=20
>>>>    Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"
>>>>    statement in the NC/RC models with a container?
>>>>=20
>>>>       Pros: maximum flexibility
>>>>       Cons: less consistency?
>>>=20
>>> What exactly are the demux containers? You mean the
>>> <tcp-client-parameters> and <tls-client-parameters> containers?
>>=20
>> Yes.  This is what what meant by:
>>=20
>>   "Added a top-level "demux container" inside the top-level grouping.
>>    By "demux", I'm referring to the namespace problem discussed =
@104."
>>=20
>> about 10 lines above.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> I have no strong opinion, they may be ok although things get a bit =
more verbose.
>>=20
>> On the "Cons" side, I'm calling the containers =
"<protocol>-<client/server>-parameters".  I question is if this is a =
good name in all contexts.  By removing the "demux container",  it lets =
the consumer decide what to call it.  This brings us to the "less =
consistency?" comment;  of course there would be little consistency but, =
do we care?
>>=20
>> Regarding "a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write", I =
don't see anywhere in RFC 8341 that nacm:default-deny-write can't be =
used in a grouping, but it will impact the parent...  If the parent has =
other descendents besides from the grouping, those descendents would =
likely be impacted too, right?   Do we care?  If we put =
nacm:default-deny-write under the grouping statement, then I think that =
it subtly enforces consumers to create their own wrapper containers (as =
opposed to mixing the descendents in with other nodes).   Alternately, =
we could float the "if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the =
grouping.  Not ideal, but works...?
>>=20
>=20
> Perhaps instead of being tricky (subtly enforcing consumers to create
> their own wrapper), why not move the nacm:default-deny-write to the
> leafs? This seems less subtle and more robust.

Right, this was my last sentence: "Alternately, we could float the =
"if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the grouping.".

Okay, so it's technically possible (the nacm extension), but I feel that =
we're still open on if the "demux containers" should be kept or =
discarded. =20

I'm personally leaning towards "discard", but I don't want to make the =
change until we have a solid decision.



>>>> 3. In either the NETCONF and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all
>>>>  where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they refer to
>>>>  nodes that are conditional by "if-feature" statements?
>>>>=20
>>>>     i.e., search for "case periodic-connection"
>>>>=20
>>>>  Should the "must" statements be located somewhere else?
>>>=20
>>> I actually wonder whether this must is really desirable. What breaks
>>> if I have TCP keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home =
connection?
>>> Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken =
firewall.
>>=20
>> The point of the periodic connection, from which it gets its name, is =
that it "frequently" sets-up and tears-down.  Thus is self-healing in =
the case of a network drop.
>>=20
>> Our WG's primary use-case for keepalives is a device that has been =
configured to periodically call-home (perhaps every midnight), in case =
its controller application has any config pending for it (depositing =
logs is assumed to be out-of-band).    One can imagine the controller =
performing a number of steps, potentially with delays between the steps.
>=20
> The point is that we do not know what will happen once the server has
> called home - so how can we be sure that keep alives never make sense
> with call-home?

I'm okay with removing these "must" statements"  They can be added in =
again later, potentially through an "augment" statement, if need be.



>> The ietf-[net/rest]conf-server-grouping groupings say this about the =
"periodic-connection" presence container (under "call-home"):
>>=20
>>                     "Periodically connect to the NETCONF client.  The
>>                      NETCONF client should close the underlying TCP
>>                      connection upon completing planned activities.
>>=20
>> So, if the connection is dropped (due to a lack a keepalives), should =
the server interpret that as "the client completed planned activities", =
and therefore doesn't need to connect again until next midnight?
>=20
> The server likely does not care, at least likely not more than without
> call-home. I assume that keep alives are more interesting for a client
> that is not constantly talking to the server but likes to keep the
> session open (for whatever reason).

Unsure.  It seems that a packer could drop the TCP connection =
immediately after NC/RC starts up.   The client would be unable to send =
any data to the server.  The server MAY think that it was a successful =
"no-op" call-home.  With NETCONF, the client could send <close-session>, =
but still there is a need to support dropped connections and, besides, =
there is no RESTCONF equivalent.


>> Separately (not related to the above), the =
ietf-[net/rest]conf-client-grouping groupings say (under "initiate"):
>>=20
>>                     "Periodically connect to the NETCONF server.  The
>>                      NETCONF server should close the underlying TCP
>>                      connection upon completing planned activities.
>>=20
>> which might be right, but somehow it feels odd that the client =
wouldn't always close the connection...
>>=20
>=20
> For the use cases I have in mind for this, the server would not really
> know when to close the connection since the client would take control
> over what is going on. This may, however, be different from a
> call-home to stream notifications. Perhaps we should say less.

I think that you're right.  This is NOT for the call-home case (that is =
the "listen" subtree, not the "initiate" subtree).  I think that the =
comment is wrong and should say:

                    "Periodically connect to the NETCONF server.  The
                     NETCONF client should close the underlying TCP
                     connection upon completing planned activities.

or (since it's not special, as in the matching call-home statement):

                    "Periodically connect to the NETCONF server."

    To your point: "Perhaps we should say less".


> One thing that comes to mind is whether a new callhome attempt should
> be made in situations where the previous callhome is still alive. Do
> we want to say something about this or not?



If that happens, then something is wrong.  Either the previous attempt =
is "hung" (but I think there is an "idle-timeout" to catch such cases, =
maybe only for NC though), or it is legitimately still busy (in which =
case it MAY be an indication that the frequency is set too high but, in =
either case, it seems that a second connection wouldn't be desired).   =
There is currently no text stating what to do in this case.  It seems =
like such text might go into the same description statements discussed =
above:


                    "Periodically connect to the <protocol> <peer>.  The
                     <protocol> client SHOULD close the underlying TCP
                     connection upon completing planned activities.

                     In the case that the pervious connection is still =
active,
                     establishing a new connection is NOT RECOMMENDED.


Thoughts?


Kent // contributor






--Apple-Mail=_517122F6-D8C7-44C0-AB31-F383CF00BB63
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 15, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Inline...<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 =
at 09:05:30PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Current Issues:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">1. Regarding the "demux containers":<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pros:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- now the NC/RC models look better<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- a convenient place to have a =
nacm:default-deny-write<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cons:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- =
seems overbearing for general use<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;Question:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it =
be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;statement in the NC/RC models with a container?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pros: =
maximum flexibility<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cons: less consistency?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">What exactly are the demux =
containers? You mean the<br class=3D"">&lt;tcp-client-parameters&gt; and =
&lt;tls-client-parameters&gt; containers?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Yes. &nbsp;This is what what meant by:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;"Added a top-level "demux container" inside the =
top-level grouping.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;By "demux", I'm =
referring to the namespace problem discussed @104."<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">about 10 lines above.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I have no =
strong opinion, they may be ok although things get a bit more =
verbose.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">On the "Cons" side, =
I'm calling the containers =
"&lt;protocol&gt;-&lt;client/server&gt;-parameters". &nbsp;I question is =
if this is a good name in all contexts. &nbsp;By removing the "demux =
container", &nbsp;it lets the consumer decide what to call it. =
&nbsp;This brings us to the "less consistency?" comment; &nbsp;of course =
there would be little consistency but, do we care?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Regarding "a convenient place to have a =
nacm:default-deny-write", I don't see anywhere in RFC 8341 that =
nacm:default-deny-write can't be used in a grouping, but it will impact =
the parent... &nbsp;If the parent has other descendents besides from the =
grouping, those descendents would likely be impacted too, right? =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Do we care? &nbsp;If we put nacm:default-deny-write under =
the grouping statement, then I think that it subtly enforces consumers =
to create their own wrapper containers (as opposed to mixing the =
descendents in with other nodes). &nbsp;&nbsp;Alternately, we could =
float the "if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the =
grouping. &nbsp;Not ideal, but works...?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Perhaps instead of being tricky =
(subtly enforcing consumers to create<br class=3D"">their own wrapper), =
why not move the nacm:default-deny-write to the<br class=3D"">leafs? =
This seems less subtle and more robust.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Right, =
this was my last sentence: "Alternately, we could float the "if-feature" =
statement down to each descendent of the grouping.".</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Okay, so it's technically possible (the nacm =
extension), but I feel that we're still open on if the "demux =
containers" should be kept or discarded. &nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I'm personally leaning towards "discard", but I =
don't want to make the change until we have a solid =
decision.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">3. In either the NETCONF =
and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all<br class=3D""> &nbsp;where a =
'must' statement is located, especially if they refer to<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;nodes that are conditional by "if-feature" statements?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i.e., search for =
"case periodic-connection"<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;Should =
the "must" statements be located somewhere else?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I actually wonder whether this =
must is really desirable. What breaks<br class=3D"">if I have TCP =
keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home connection?<br =
class=3D"">Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken =
firewall.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The point of the =
periodic connection, from which it gets its name, is that it =
"frequently" sets-up and tears-down. &nbsp;Thus is self-healing in the =
case of a network drop.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Our WG's primary =
use-case for keepalives is a device that has been configured to =
periodically call-home (perhaps every midnight), in case its controller =
application has any config pending for it (depositing logs is assumed to =
be out-of-band). &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;One can imagine the controller =
performing a number of steps, potentially with delays between the =
steps.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The point is that we do =
not know what will happen once the server has<br class=3D"">called home =
- so how can we be sure that keep alives never make sense<br =
class=3D"">with call-home?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
 class=3D""></div><div>I'm okay with removing these "must" statements" =
&nbsp;They can be added in again later, potentially through an "augment" =
statement, if need be.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">The ietf-[net/rest]conf-server-grouping groupings say this =
about the "periodic-connection" presence container (under =
"call-home"):<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Periodically connect to =
the NETCONF client. &nbsp;The<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;NETCONF client =
should close the underlying TCP<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;connection upon =
completing planned activities.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So, if the =
connection is dropped (due to a lack a keepalives), should the server =
interpret that as "the client completed planned activities", and =
therefore doesn't need to connect again until next midnight?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The server likely does not care, =
at least likely not more than without<br class=3D"">call-home. I assume =
that keep alives are more interesting for a client<br class=3D"">that is =
not constantly talking to the server but likes to keep the<br =
class=3D"">session open (for whatever reason).<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Unsure.=
 &nbsp;It seems that a packer could drop the TCP connection immediately =
after NC/RC starts up. &nbsp; The client would be unable to send any =
data to the server. &nbsp;The server MAY think that it was a successful =
"no-op" call-home. &nbsp;With NETCONF, the client could send =
&lt;close-session&gt;, but still there is a need to support dropped =
connections and, besides, there is no RESTCONF equivalent.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Separately=
 (not related to the above), the ietf-[net/rest]conf-client-grouping =
groupings say (under "initiate"):<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Periodically connect to =
the NETCONF server. &nbsp;The<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;NETCONF server =
should close the underlying TCP<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;connection upon =
completing planned activities.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">which might =
be right, but somehow it feels odd that the client wouldn't always close =
the connection...<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">For the use cases I have in mind for this, the server would =
not really<br class=3D"">know when to close the connection since the =
client would take control<br class=3D"">over what is going on. This may, =
however, be different from a<br class=3D"">call-home to stream =
notifications. Perhaps we should say less.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
think that you're right. &nbsp;This is NOT for the call-home case (that =
is the "listen" subtree, not the "initiate" subtree). &nbsp;I think that =
the comment is wrong and should say:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Periodically connect to the NETCONF server. =
&nbsp;The<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;NETCONF client should close the underlying =
TCP<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;connection upon completing planned =
activities.<br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div>or (since it's =
not special, as in the matching call-home statement):</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Periodically connect to the NETCONF =
server."</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; To your =
point: "Perhaps we should say less".</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">One thing that comes to mind =
is whether a new callhome attempt should<br class=3D"">be made in =
situations where the previous callhome is still alive. Do<br class=3D"">we=
 want to say something about this or not?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>If that happens, =
then something is wrong. &nbsp;Either the previous attempt is "hung" =
(but I think there is an "idle-timeout" to catch such cases, maybe only =
for NC though), or it is legitimately still busy (in which case it MAY =
be an indication that the frequency is set too high but, in either case, =
it seems that a second connection wouldn't be desired). &nbsp; There is =
currently no text stating what to do in this case. &nbsp;It seems like =
such text might go into the same description statements discussed =
above:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "Periodically connect to the =
&lt;protocol&gt; &lt;peer&gt;. &nbsp;The<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;protocol&gt;&nbsp;client SHOULD close the underlying TCP<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;connection upon completing planned activities.<br =
class=3D""></div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;In the =
case that the pervious connection is still active,</div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;establishing a new connection is NOT RECOMMENDED.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thoughts?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent // =
contributor</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_517122F6-D8C7-44C0-AB31-F383CF00BB63--


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Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 22:56:13 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
Cc: Aanchal Malhotra <aanchal4@bu.edu>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 09:29:35PM +0000, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote:
> Hi Aanchal,
> 
> Thanks for the review. Please see inline.
> 
> ﻿On 2019-04-11, 5:54 PM, "netconf on behalf of Aanchal Malhotra via Datatracker" <netconf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> 
>     Reviewer: Aanchal Malhotra
>     Review result: Ready
>     
>     The document is very clear and concise.  I just have one minor clarification question.
>     Section 3.4 Page 9 that says the following:
>     "In addition to any required ........SHOULD only be allowed......".  
>     
>     Is there a reason for using SHOULD instead of MUST? 
> 
> There may be reasons why an implementation decides not to enforce this restriction. Going by RFC2119 definitions, this is why we chose SHOULD instead of MUST.

If you have some reasons in mind, it is often helpful to list them as
examples of when the recommended behavior would not be followed.

Thank you Aanchal for the review!

-Ben


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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Mahesh Jethanandani, a Chair of the netconf working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Network Configuration
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Mahesh Jethanandani

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 75
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: netmod
 Second Priority: opsarea opsawg tsvwg babel idr tcpm
 Third Priority: sacm saag


People who must be present:
  Mahesh Jethanandani
  Kent Watsen
  Ignas Bagdonas

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  MUST schedule for Monday or Tuesday.
---------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:52:21 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] overview of updates and current issues
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On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:44:38PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 15, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > 
> > Inline...
> > 
> > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 09:05:30PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> >> 
> >>>> Current Issues:
> >>>> 
> >>>> 1. Regarding the "demux containers":
> >>>> 
> >>>>    Pros:
> >>>>      - now the NC/RC models look better
> >>>>      - a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write
> >>>> 
> >>>>    Cons:
> >>>>      - seems overbearing for general use
> >>>> 
> >>>>  Question:
> >>>> 
> >>>>    Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"
> >>>>    statement in the NC/RC models with a container?
> >>>> 
> >>>>       Pros: maximum flexibility
> >>>>       Cons: less consistency?
> >>> 
> >>> What exactly are the demux containers? You mean the
> >>> <tcp-client-parameters> and <tls-client-parameters> containers?
> >> 
> >> Yes.  This is what what meant by:
> >> 
> >>   "Added a top-level "demux container" inside the top-level grouping.
> >>    By "demux", I'm referring to the namespace problem discussed @104."
> >> 
> >> about 10 lines above.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> I have no strong opinion, they may be ok although things get a bit more verbose.
> >> 
> >> On the "Cons" side, I'm calling the containers "<protocol>-<client/server>-parameters".  I question is if this is a good name in all contexts.  By removing the "demux container",  it lets the consumer decide what to call it.  This brings us to the "less consistency?" comment;  of course there would be little consistency but, do we care?
> >> 
> >> Regarding "a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write", I don't see anywhere in RFC 8341 that nacm:default-deny-write can't be used in a grouping, but it will impact the parent...  If the parent has other descendents besides from the grouping, those descendents would likely be impacted too, right?   Do we care?  If we put nacm:default-deny-write under the grouping statement, then I think that it subtly enforces consumers to create their own wrapper containers (as opposed to mixing the descendents in with other nodes).   Alternately, we could float the "if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the grouping.  Not ideal, but works...?
> >> 
> > 
> > Perhaps instead of being tricky (subtly enforcing consumers to create
> > their own wrapper), why not move the nacm:default-deny-write to the
> > leafs? This seems less subtle and more robust.
> 
> Right, this was my last sentence: "Alternately, we could float the "if-feature" statement down to each descendent of the grouping.".
> 
> Okay, so it's technically possible (the nacm extension), but I feel that we're still open on if the "demux containers" should be kept or discarded.  
> 
> I'm personally leaning towards "discard", but I don't want to make the change until we have a solid decision.

I think we should discard the "demux containers" to give data model
writers the freedom to have them or not.

> > One thing that comes to mind is whether a new callhome attempt should
> > be made in situations where the previous callhome is still alive. Do
> > we want to say something about this or not?
> 
> If that happens, then something is wrong.  Either the previous attempt is "hung" (but I think there is an "idle-timeout" to catch such cases, maybe only for NC though), or it is legitimately still busy (in which case it MAY be an indication that the frequency is set too high but, in either case, it seems that a second connection wouldn't be desired).   There is currently no text stating what to do in this case.  It seems like such text might go into the same description statements discussed above:
> 
>                     "Periodically connect to the <protocol> <peer>.  The
>                      <protocol> client SHOULD close the underlying TCP
>                      connection upon completing planned activities.
> 
>                      In the case that the pervious connection is still active,
>                      establishing a new connection is NOT RECOMMENDED.

Sounds good, this provides a hint that implementers need to track and
limit call home connections.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Hi Kent,

From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
Sent: 15 April 2019 22:06
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netconf] overview of updates and current issues


Hi Juergen,

Thanks for your response.



Current Issues:

1. Regarding the "demux containers":

    Pros:
      - now the NC/RC models look better
      - a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write

    Cons:
      - seems overbearing for general use

  Question:

    Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each "uses"
    statement in the NC/RC models with a container?

       Pros: maximum flexibility
       Cons: less consistency?

What exactly are the demux containers? You mean the
<tcp-client-parameters> and <tls-client-parameters> containers?

Yes.  This is what what meant by:

   "Added a top-level "demux container" inside the top-level grouping.
    By "demux", I'm referring to the namespace problem discussed @104."

about 10 lines above.




I have no strong opinion, they may be ok although things get a bit more ver=
bose.

On the "Cons" side, I'm calling the containers "<protocol>-<client/server>-=
parameters".  I question is if this is a good name in all contexts.  By rem=
oving the "demux container",  it lets the consumer decide what to call it. =
 This brings us to the "less consistency?" comment;  of course there would =
be little consistency but, do we care?

Regarding "a convenient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write", I don't s=
ee anywhere in RFC 8341 that nacm:default-deny-write can't be used in a gro=
uping, but it will impact the parent...  If the parent has other descendent=
s besides from the grouping, those descendents would likely be impacted too=
, right?   Do we care?  If we put nacm:default-deny-write under the groupin=
g statement, then I think that it subtly enforces consumers to create their=
 own wrapper containers (as opposed to mixing the descendents in with other=
 nodes).   Alternately, we could float the "if-feature" statement down to e=
ach descendent of the grouping.  Not ideal, but works...?
[RW]
It's not obvious to me what a nacm:default-deny-write means when applied to=
 a grouping, noting that RFC 7950 section 7.12 indicates that the extension=
 statement applies to the grouping statement itself, not the data node unde=
r which the grouping is used.

I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few YANG compilers would just regard thi=
s as a bug, or at least they wouldn't all behave in a consistent way.

Thanks,
Rob



2. Only in the RESTCONF draft, http proxy-server weirdness

  a) in the "ietf-restconf-client", there's an unwanted "proxy-server"
     definition  (middle of page 43):

     /restconf-client/listen/endpoint/https/http-client-parameters/proxy-se=
rver

     An HTTP client that receives a call-home connection does NOT need
     to initiate a connection and therefore there never is a desire to
     configure a proxy server, but here it is!

     It's here because the "ieft-http-client" grouping defines it, but
     when that grouping is used, neither "refine" nor "augment" can
     remove the definition.

     Sure, a "must" could disable it, but it still shows in the tree
     diagram, which is undesirable...


 b)in the "ietf-restconf-server", there's a missing "proxy-server"
     definition  (bottom of page 48 ):

     /restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client/endpoints/endpoint/\
     https/http-client-parameters/<missing:proxy-server/>

     An HTTP server that establishes a call-home connection needs
     to initiate a connection and therefore there is a desire to
     configure a proxy server, but the config node is missing!

     This is because the "ieft-http-server" grouping doesn't
     defines a proxy-server node (because servers typically
     never need to go through a proxy so, when that grouping
     is used, the definition is missing.

     Sure, we could augment it in, but coupled with the above,
     maybe there's a better answer?

 What to do?

No idea.

This remains an open issue.



3. In either the NETCONF and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all
  where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they refer to
  nodes that are conditional by "if-feature" statements?

     i.e., search for "case periodic-connection"

  Should the "must" statements be located somewhere else?

I actually wonder whether this must is really desirable. What breaks
if I have TCP keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home connection?
Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken firewall.

The point of the periodic connection, from which it gets its name, is that =
it "frequently" sets-up and tears-down.  Thus is self-healing in the case o=
f a network drop.

Our WG's primary use-case for keepalives is a device that has been configur=
ed to periodically call-home (perhaps every midnight), in case its controll=
er application has any config pending for it (depositing logs is assumed to=
 be out-of-band).    One can imagine the controller performing a number of =
steps, potentially with delays between the steps.

The ietf-[net/rest]conf-server-grouping groupings say this about the "perio=
dic-connection" presence container (under "call-home"):

                     "Periodically connect to the NETCONF client.  The
                      NETCONF client should close the underlying TCP
                      connection upon completing planned activities.

So, if the connection is dropped (do to a lack a keepalives), should the se=
rver interpret that as "the client completed planned activities", and there=
fore doesn't need to connect again until next midnight?


Separately (not related to the above), the ietf-[net/rest]conf-client-group=
ing groupings say (under "initiate"):

                     "Periodically connect to the NETCONF server.  The
                      NETCONF server should close the underlying TCP
                      connection upon completing planned activities.

which might be right, but somehow it feels odd that the client wouldn't alw=
ays do close the connection...





4) Only in the NETCONF draft, Section 5 contains the old  "Design
  Considerations" text from ~5 years ago.

  The idea of removing is was discussed a while back, and someone
  said it was worth keeping...

  I'm thinking again to remove it, but rather to deleting it, I'm
  now thinking maybe we could *move* it to an Informational draft:

    "Architecture for the Collection of Client and Server Models"

  that could also contain a picture like this:

                                       crypto-types
                                         ^      ^
                                        /        \
                                       /          \
                             trust-anchors       keystore
                                ^      ^------+    ^
                                |              \   |
                                |      +-----------+
                                |     /          \
tcp-client-server     ssh-client-server      tls-client-server     http-cli=
ent-server
      ^      ^              ^                  ^           ^               =
^
      |      |              |                  |           |               =
|
      |      |              |       +----------+           |               =
|
      |      |              |       |                      |               =
|
      |      |              |       |                      |               =
|
      |      +--------------|-------|------------+         |               =
|
      |                     |       |            |         |               =
|
      |                     |       |            |         |               =
|
      +--------------+      |       |            |         |      +--------=
+
                     |      |       |            |         |      |
                     |      |       |            |         |      |
                  netconf-client-server        restconf-client-server




 If there is desire, it would be best to do it now so that all of
 the client/server drafts could reference it.  Thus, whichever draft
 a reader begins with, their attention is drawn to the collection and
 thus they can see how the part fits into the whole.

I like the modularization you are doing but perhaps the problem is
that the packaging of this stuff into documents makes things hard to
follow. For example, why not define crypto-types, trust-anchors, and
keystore into one document? Then this document could explain the top
part of your figure. One could perhaps also put tcp-client-server,
tls-client-server, and http-client-server together, perhaps even
adding ssh-client-server to it. Note that you always revise the
modules are different speeds later on since you can have future RFCs
take over control over a specific module.

I'm not interested in doing this work, especially given where we are now.  =
 If there is consensus in the WG, I request someone take over being Editor =
for awhile.



That said, I believe we need to document the design of this somewhere
so that others use it instead of rolling their own solutions. So my
preference likely is to do both, merge some closely related modules
into single documents and have a document that explains the overall
design and how it is to be used by others.


I support "have a document that explains the overall design and how it is t=
o be used by others", but I would like someone else to pick up the pen.  In=
 the meanwhile, I think that it is safe to delete Section 5 (Design Conside=
rations) from the netconf-client-server draft.   Someone can grab it from t=
he archives when needed.


Kent



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Kent,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From=
:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> netconf &lt;netconf-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Watsen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 April 2019 22:06<br>
<b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&g=
t;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> netconf@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netconf] overview of updates and current issues<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Hi Juergen,<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Thanks for your respons=
e.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Current Issues:<br>
<br>
1. Regarding the &quot;demux containers&quot;:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pros:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- now the NC/RC models look better<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- a convenient place to have a nacm:def=
ault-deny-write<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cons:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- seems overbearing for general use<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;Question:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Would it be better to revert and instead wrap each =
&quot;uses&quot;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;statement in the NC/RC models with a container?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pros: maximum flexibility<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cons: less consistency?<o:p></o:p=
></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
What exactly are the demux containers? You mean the<br>
&lt;tcp-client-parameters&gt; and &lt;tls-client-parameters&gt; containers?=
 <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Yes. &nbsp;This is what=
 what meant by:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Menlo-Regular&quot;,serif">&nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Ad=
ded a top-level &quot;demux container&quot; inside the top-level grouping.<=
br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; By &quot;demux&quot;, I'm referring to the namespace problem =
discussed @104.&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Menlo-Regular&quot;,serif">about 10 lines above.=
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">I have&nbsp;no strong o=
pinion, they may be ok although things get a bit more&nbsp;verbose.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">On the &quot;Cons&quot;=
 side, I'm calling the containers &quot;&lt;protocol&gt;-&lt;client/server&=
gt;-parameters&quot;. &nbsp;I question is if this is a good name in all con=
texts. &nbsp;By removing the &quot;demux container&quot;, &nbsp;it lets the=
 consumer decide what
 to call it. &nbsp;This brings us to the &quot;less consistency?&quot; comm=
ent; &nbsp;of course there would be little consistency but, do we care?<o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Regarding &quot;a conve=
nient place to have a nacm:default-deny-write&quot;, I don't see anywhere i=
n RFC 8341 that nacm:default-deny-write can't be used in a grouping, but it=
 will impact the parent... &nbsp;If the parent has
 other descendents besides from the grouping, those descendents would likel=
y be impacted too, right? &nbsp; Do we care? &nbsp;If we put&nbsp;nacm:defa=
ult-deny-write under the grouping statement, then I think that it subtly en=
forces consumers to create their own wrapper containers
 (as opposed to mixing the descendents in with other nodes). &nbsp; Alterna=
tely, we could float the &quot;if-feature&quot; statement down to each desc=
endent of the grouping. &nbsp;Not ideal, but works...?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[RW]
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It&#8217;s not obvious to me wh=
at a nacm:default-deny-write means when applied to a grouping, noting that =
RFC 7950 section 7.12 indicates that the extension statement
 applies to the grouping statement itself, not the data node under which th=
e grouping is used.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised i=
f quite a few YANG compilers would just regard this as a bug, or at least t=
hey wouldn&#8217;t all behave in a consistent way.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></b=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<br>
Rob<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">2. Only in the RESTCONF=
 draft, http proxy-server weirdness<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;a) in the &quot;ietf-restconf-client&quot;, there's an unwanted=
 &quot;proxy-server&quot;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;definition &nbsp;(middle of page 43):<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/restconf-client/listen/endpoint/https/http-c=
lient-parameters/proxy-server<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;An HTTP client that receives a call-home conn=
ection does NOT need<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to initiate a connection and therefore there =
never is a desire to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;configure a proxy server, but here it is!<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It's here because the &quot;ieft-http-client&=
quot; grouping defines it, but<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;when that grouping is used, neither &quot;ref=
ine&quot; nor &quot;augment&quot; can<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;remove the definition.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sure, a &quot;must&quot; could disable it, bu=
t it still shows in the tree<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;diagram, which is undesirable...<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;b)in the &quot;ietf-restconf-server&quot;, there's a missing &quot;pr=
oxy-server&quot;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;definition &nbsp;(bottom of page 48 ):<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/restconf-server/call-home/restconf-client/en=
dpoints/endpoint/\<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;https/http-client-parameters/&lt;missing:prox=
y-server/&gt;<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;An HTTP server that establishes a call-home c=
onnection needs<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to initiate a connection and therefore there =
is a desire to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;configure a proxy server, but the config node=
 is missing!<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This is because the &quot;ieft-http-server&qu=
ot; grouping doesn't<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;defines a proxy-server node (because servers =
typically<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;never need to go through a proxy so, when tha=
t grouping<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;is used, the definition is missing.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sure, we could augment it in, but coupled wit=
h the above,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;maybe there's a better answer?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;What to do?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
No idea.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">This remains an open is=
sue.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">3. In either the NETCON=
F and RESTCONF drafts, does it matter at all<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;where a 'must' statement is located, especially if they refer t=
o<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;nodes that are conditional by &quot;if-feature&quot; statements=
?<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i.e., search for &quot;case periodic-connecti=
on&quot;<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;Should the &quot;must&quot; statements be located somewhere els=
e?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
I actually wonder whether this must is really desirable. What breaks<br>
if I have TCP keep-alives turned on for a periodic call-home connection?<br=
>
Perhaps I want to enable keep-alives to work around a broken firewall.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">The point of the period=
ic connection, from which it gets its name, is that it &quot;frequently&quo=
t; sets-up and tears-down. &nbsp;Thus is self-healing in the case of a netw=
ork drop.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Our WG's primary use-ca=
se for keepalives is a device that has been configured to periodically call=
-home (perhaps every midnight), in case its controller application has any =
config pending for it (depositing logs
 is assumed to be out-of-band). &nbsp; &nbsp;One can imagine the controller=
 performing a number of steps, potentially with delays between the steps.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">The ietf-[net/rest]conf=
-server-grouping groupings say this about the &quot;periodic-connection&quo=
t; presence container (under &quot;call-home&quot;):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Periodically con=
nect to the NETCONF client. &nbsp;The<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NETCONF client should=
 close the underlying TCP<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; connection upon compl=
eting planned activities.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">So, if the connection i=
s dropped (do to a lack a keepalives), should the server interpret that as =
&quot;the client completed planned activities&quot;, and therefore doesn't =
need to connect again until next midnight?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Separately (not related=
 to the above), the ietf-[net/rest]conf-client-grouping groupings say (unde=
r &quot;initiate&quot;):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Periodically con=
nect to the NETCONF server. &nbsp;The<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NETCONF server should=
 close the underlying TCP<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; connection upon compl=
eting planned activities.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">which might be right, b=
ut somehow it feels odd that the client wouldn't always do close the connec=
tion...<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">4) Only in the NETCONF =
draft, Section 5 contains the old &nbsp;&quot;Design<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;Considerations&quot; text from ~5 years ago.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The idea of removing is was discussed a while back, and someone=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;said it was worth keeping...<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm thinking again to remove it, but rather to deleting it, I'm=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;now thinking maybe we could *move* it to an Informational draft=
:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;Architecture for the Collection of Client and=
 Server Models&quot;<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;that could also contain a picture like this:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;crypto-types<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;/ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;trust-anchors &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;k=
eystore<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^=
------&#43; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\ &nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
#43;-----------&#43;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\<br>
tcp-client-server &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ssh-client-server &nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;tls-client-server &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;http-client-server=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;^ &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;^<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;----------&#43; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;--=
------------|-------|------------&#43; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;--------------&#43; &nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;--------&#43;<br=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;netconf-client-server &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;restconf-client-server<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&nbsp;If there is desire, it would be best to do it now so that all of<br>
&nbsp;the client/server drafts could reference it. &nbsp;Thus, whichever dr=
aft<br>
&nbsp;a reader begins with, their attention is drawn to the collection and<=
br>
&nbsp;thus they can see how the part fits into the whole.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
I like the modularization you are doing but perhaps the problem is<br>
that the packaging of this stuff into documents makes things hard to<br>
follow. For example, why not define crypto-types, trust-anchors, and<br>
keystore into one document? Then this document could explain the top<br>
part of your figure. One could perhaps also put tcp-client-server,<br>
tls-client-server, and http-client-server together, perhaps even<br>
adding ssh-client-server to it. Note that you always revise the<br>
modules are different speeds later on since you can have future RFCs<br>
take over control over a specific module.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">I'm not interested in d=
oing this work, especially given where we are now. &nbsp; If there is conse=
nsus in the WG, I request someone take over being Editor for awhile.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">That said, I believe we=
 need to document the design of this somewhere<br>
so that others use it instead of rolling their own solutions. So my<br>
preference likely is to do both, merge some closely related modules<br>
into single documents and have a document that explains the overall<br>
design and how it is to be used by others.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">I support &quot;have a =
document that explains the overall design and how it is to be used by other=
s&quot;, but I would like someone else to pick up the pen. &nbsp;In the mea=
nwhile, I think that it is safe to delete Section 5
 (Design Considerations) from the netconf-client-server draft. &nbsp; Someo=
ne can grab it from the archives when needed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt">Kent<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: [netconf] netconf - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 105
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An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Mahesh Jethanandani, a Chair of the netconf working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Network Configuration
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Mahesh Jethanandani

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 75
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: netmod
 Second Priority: opsarea opsawg tsvwg babel idr tcpm
 Third Priority: sacm saag


People who must be present:
  Mahesh Jethanandani
  Kent Watsen
  Ignas Bagdonas

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  Friday does not work for the WG.
---------------------------------------------------------


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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Regarding #1, per previous discussion, the 'permanently-hidden' text =
regarding such keys not being backed up or restored has been replaced =
(see below).  With regards to permanently hidden keys, I think the =
current solution with the 'generate-hidden-key' and 'install-hidden-key' =
is nearly ideal, if not so.

        type enumeration {
          enum permanently-hidden {
            description
              "The private key is inaccessible due to being
               protected by the system (e.g., a cryptographic
               hardware module).

               How such keys may be backed-up and restored,
               if at all, is application specific.
              =20
               Servers MUST fail any attempt by a client to
               configure this value directly.  This value is
               not set by clients, but rather is set by the
               'generate-hidden-key' action.";
          }
        }

=20
Regarding #2, I'm unclear how a different name would be any better than =
"hidden".  =46rom the above description text, the key surely seems =
"hidden" (from the YANG-driven management engine) to me...

Regarding #3, firstly note that the description text doesn't necessitate =
use of a TPM, it is merely suggestive that may a motivating reason.  =
Second, I'm unsure if "new actions" are needed so much as a "new =
approach" or maybe "different actions" (is this what you meant?).=20

To dig into this again, it is common best practice to have a device =
generate a private key that is considered configuration, albeit =
protected by access-control.  The reason for this best practice is that =
it supports the private key never having to exist outside the device =
(backups and HA-replication withstanding) and, in particular, the client =
doesn't touch the key (there are no remnants on the client computer =
needing to be scrubbed). =20

In addition to the best-practice angle, there's also a simplicity aspect =
in that invoking an action is much easier (and perhaps safer) than the =
client using a crypto-library.  In fact, the only reason a client might =
not want the server generate the private key is because of a lack of =
confidence in the server's key-generation implementation (e.g., the =
strength of the entropy, though TPM-generated entropy is rather =
excellent).  =20

To be clear, I also support enabling clients to generate private keys =
themselves, as there are times when it is important, but feel that it =
should be viewed as a special case rather than common procedure.

My recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key" =
(renamed to just "generate/install-key") actions to have a flag =
indicating if the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a =
TPM) or not, in which case configuration is created, same as if the =
client had used <edit-config>, but without needing to touch the key.

Yes, having an action generate config is a taboo subject, the general =
reasoning for which is understood [1], but it seems that exceptions =
should be made in special circumstances, such as this one.

[1] =
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/ezf5o9GvCsH_hDPiIX-YQKfnxj8

Kent // contributor



> On Apr 24, 2019, at 8:52 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs =
<balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
> =20
> Is there a conclusion on this thread?
> =20
> Alternatives I=E2=80=99ve seen:
> =20
> =E2=80=98hidden=E2=80=99 actions already solve the problem.=20
> Backup of keys won=E2=80=99t be supported or special procedure needed.
> Descriptions need to be updated to generalize use case (not be =
restricted to TPMs).
> Current actions solve the problem, but new terminology should be =
needed instead of =E2=80=98hidden=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98permanently =
hidden=E2=80=99.
> Backup of keys won=E2=80=99t be supported or special procedure needed.
> Descriptions to be updated.
> New actions needed that affect configuration for non-TPM use cases
> Backup of keys can be supported
>                                                                i.      =
Q: how does a restore differ from normal configuration which the =
generate key action was supposed to circumvent to follow security best =
practice?
> =20
> I guess the latest mails confirm 1) or 2). Would be good to know the =
way forward.
> =20
> Br,
> Balazs
> =20
> From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel
> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 4:54 PM
> To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>>; =
ietfc@btconnect.com <mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com>
> Cc: netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
> =20
> Hello,
>=20
> While using actions to configure data nodes instead of edit-config =
clearly has problems, in some cases it is needed. Ericsson does use it, =
but we try to be VERY(!) restrictive when it is allowed. IMHO  security =
best practice could be one case. Also we should not pretend this is the =
only case where the system itself manipulates configuration:
>=20
> security keys
> HW insertion/removal (interface type)
> onboard automation may do it
> server capabilities that need additional configuration (must be in =
running as it is reference from other parts of the configuration)
> I also hope we will arrive at a solution that works for non-NMDA =
systems too. AFAIK  we never stated in any RFC that NMDA is a =
requirement for the solution. (Except for NMDA itself :-)  )
>=20
> regards Balazs
>=20
> On 2019. 04. 05. 14:22, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com> <mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com> wrote:
> =20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com> <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>
> To: <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: <netconf@ietf.org> <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 6:46 PM
> =20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> =
<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> =20
> =20
> We have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.  What are
> the
> specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate them?
> =20
> =20
> If editing of all configuration can be done with a single edit-data
> (or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you enable
> generic implementations.
> =20
> Once you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with
> special
> purpose operations, you say goodbye to the idea of generic client
> libraries.
> =20
> And you can no longer create all required config in one transaction;
> you have to split it into sending multiple special-purpose actions.
> Perhaps also in a certain order, that you have to figure out somehow,
> since config might have refererences to other partf of the config
> etc.
> =20
> You can no longer restore a backup with just a copy-config.
> =20
> Which is exactly what I have seen customers - think military - do.
> =20
> Security-related information - userid, passwords, second factor , ...-
> MUST NOT be backed up like everything else - special procedures -
> authentication, encryption -  must be used.
> =20
> Agreed!  BUT, then it should not be modelled as configuration, imo.
> =20
> And the current model already handles this case with "hidden" keys.
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> /martin
> =20
> =20
> This is security - it matters.
> =20
> Tom Petch
> =20
> So I don't think the reasoning is unclear at all.
> =20
> /martin
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
> =20
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>
> =20
> --=20
> Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
> Senior Specialist
> Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: =
Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com <mailto:Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com>=20
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>


--Apple-Mail=_631C2BF9-43E4-43E4-B197-5BD005697797
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Regarding #1, per previous discussion, =
the 'permanently-hidden' text regarding&nbsp;such keys not being backed =
up or restored has been replaced (see below). &nbsp;With regards to =
permanently hidden keys, I think the current solution with the =
'generate-hidden-key' and 'install-hidden-key' is nearly ideal, if not =
so.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;type&nbsp;enumeration&nbsp;{<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;enum&nbsp;permanently-hidden&nbsp;{<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;description<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;"The =
private key is inaccessible due to being<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;protected by the system (e.g., =
a cryptographic<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;hardware module).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;How such keys may be =
backed-up and restored,<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;if at all, is application specific.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Servers MUST fail any attempt by a client to<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;configure this value =
directly.&nbsp;&nbsp;This value is<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;not set by clients, but rather is set =
by the<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;'generate-hidden-key' action.";<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;}<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Regarding #2, I'm =
unclear how a different name would be any better than "hidden". =
&nbsp;=46rom the above description text, the key surely seems "hidden" =
(from the YANG-driven management engine) to me...</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Regarding #3, firstly note that the description =
text doesn't necessitate use of a TPM, it is merely suggestive that may =
a motivating reason. &nbsp;Second, I'm unsure if "new actions" are =
needed so much as a "new approach" or maybe "different actions" (is this =
what you meant?).&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>To dig into =
this again, it is common best practice to have a device generate a =
private key that is considered configuration, albeit protected by =
access-control. &nbsp;The reason for this best practice is that it =
supports the private key never having to exist outside the device =
(backups and HA-replication withstanding) and, in particular, the client =
doesn't touch the key (there are no remnants on the client computer =
needing to be scrubbed). &nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In =
addition to the best-practice angle, there's also a simplicity aspect in =
that invoking an action is much easier (and perhaps safer) than the =
client using a crypto-library. &nbsp;In fact, the only reason a client =
might not want the server generate the private key is because of a lack =
of confidence in the server's key-generation implementation (e.g., the =
strength of the entropy, though TPM-generated entropy is rather =
excellent). &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>To be =
clear, I also support enabling clients to generate private keys =
themselves, as there are times when it is important, but feel that it =
should be viewed as a special case rather than common =
procedure.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>My recommendation is to =
modify the "generate/install-hidden-key" (renamed to just =
"generate/install-key") actions to have a flag indicating if the key =
should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a TPM) or not, in which =
case configuration is created, same as if the client had used =
&lt;edit-config&gt;, but without needing to touch the key.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes, having an action generate config is a taboo =
subject, the general reasoning for which is understood [1], but it seems =
that exceptions should be made in special circumstances, such as this =
one.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>[1]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/ezf5o9GvCsH_hDPiIX-Y=
QKfnxj8" =
class=3D"">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/ezf5o9GvCsH_hDPiI=
X-YQKfnxj8</a></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Kent // =
contributor</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr 24, 2019, at 8:52 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs =
Kov=C3=A1cs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica-Light; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D"">Is there a =
conclusion on this thread?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D"">Alternatives =
I=E2=80=99ve seen:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">=E2=80=98hidde=
n=E2=80=99 actions already solve the problem.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Backup of keys won=E2=80=99t be =
supported or special procedure needed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Descriptions =
need to be updated to generalize use case (not be restricted to =
TPMs).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Current actions solve the =
problem, but new terminology should be needed instead of =E2=80=98hidden=E2=
=80=99 and =E2=80=98permanently hidden=E2=80=99.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Backup of keys won=E2=80=99t be =
supported or special procedure needed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Descriptions =
to be updated.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">New actions =
needed that affect configuration for non-TPM use cases<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">Backup of keys can be =
supported<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ol></ol><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: -1.5in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><span style=3D"font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; =
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>i.<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span><span =
style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D"">Q: how does a restore differ =
from normal configuration which the generate key action was supposed to =
circumvent to follow security best practice?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D"">I guess the =
latest mails confirm 1) or 2). Would be good to know the way =
forward.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D"">Br,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D"">Balazs<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"color: windowtext;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>netconf &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">netconf-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Bal=C3=A1zs =
Lengyel<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, April 5, 2019 4:54 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Martin Bjorklund &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ietfc@btconnect.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">netconf@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [netconf] ietf crypto =
types - permanently hidden<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><p class=3D"">Hello,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">While using actions to configure data =
nodes instead of edit-config clearly has problems, in some cases it is =
needed. Ericsson does use it, but we try to be VERY(!) restrictive when =
it is allowed. IMHO&nbsp; security best practice could be one case. Also =
we should not pretend this is the only case where the system itself =
manipulates configuration:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><ul type=3D"disc" =
style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">security keys<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">HW insertion/removal (interface =
type)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">onboard automation may do it<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">server capabilities that need =
additional configuration (must be in running as it is reference from =
other parts of the configuration)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3D"">I also hope we will arrive at a solution that works for =
non-NMDA systems too. AFAIK&nbsp; we never stated in any RFC that NMDA =
is a requirement for the solution. (Except for NMDA itself :-)&nbsp; =
)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"">regards Balazs<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On 2019. 04. 05. 14:22, Martin Bjorklund wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">tom =
petch <a href=3D"mailto:ietfc@btconnect.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">&lt;ietfc@btconnect.com&gt;</a> =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">----- =
Original Message -----<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">From: "Martin Bjorklund" <a =
href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">&lt;mbj@tail-f.com&gt;</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">To: =
<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Cc: =
<a href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">&lt;netconf@ietf.org&gt;</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Sent: =
Thursday, April 04, 2019 6:46 PM<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Juergen=
 Schoenwaelder <a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">&lt;j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de&gt;</a> wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">On =
Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:23:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">We =
have always said no, but the reasoning is unclear.&nbsp; What are<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">specific objections and is there anyway to alleviate =
them?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">If editing of all configuration can be done with a single =
edit-data<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">(or edit-config) operation, you simplify the world and you =
enable<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">generic implementations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Once =
you build silos of data that can only be manipulated with<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote></blockquote><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">special<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">purpose operations, you say goodbye =
to the idea of generic client<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">libraries.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">And you can no longer create all required config in one =
transaction;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">you have to split it into sending multiple special-purpose =
actions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Perhaps also in a certain order, that you have to figure out =
somehow,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">since config might have refererences to other partf of the =
config<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">etc.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">You can no longer restore a backup with just a =
copy-config.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Which is exactly what I have seen =
customers - think military - do.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Security-related information - userid, passwords, second =
factor , ...-<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">MUST NOT be backed up like everything else - special =
procedures -<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">authentication, encryption -&nbsp; must be used.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Agreed!&nbsp; BUT, then it should not be modelled as =
configuration, imo.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">And the current model already handles this case with "hidden" =
keys.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">/martin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">This =
is security - it matters.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Tom Petch<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">So I =
don't think the reasoning is unclear at all.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">/martin<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
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From nobody Wed Apr 24 10:44:50 2019
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From: "Alexander Clemm" <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: "'Wesley Eddy'" <wes@mti-systems.com>, <tsv-art@ietf.org>
Cc: <draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push.all@ietf.org>, <ietf@ietf.org>, <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22
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Hi Wesley, thank you for your review!
--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wesley Eddy via
Datatracker
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 8:23 AM
To: tsv-art@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org;
netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [netconf] Tsvart last call review of
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22

Reviewer: Wesley Eddy
Review result: Ready

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written
primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the
IETF discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this
review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.

I reviewed this in conjunction with the set of related WG documents on
NETCONF/RESTCONF subscriptions and event notifications.  On this specific
document, I didn't find any issues, though I do have comments that will be
send on other documents in the set, some of which may influence this once,
since they are closely related.

_______________________________________________
netconf mailing list
netconf@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf


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Subject: Re: [netconf] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:05:13 +0200
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
CC: =?utf-8?B?QmFsw6F6cyBLb3bDoWNz?= <balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/XqDIcw4jpOoYpWOcSxRVa3vmGfU>
Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 04:07:12PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> 
>         type enumeration {
>           enum permanently-hidden {
>             description
>               "The private key is inaccessible due to being
>                protected by the system (e.g., a cryptographic
>                hardware module).
> 
>                How such keys may be backed-up and restored,
>                if at all, is application specific.

Perhaps this should say 'implementation specific' instead 'application
specific'.

> My recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key" (renamed to just "generate/install-key") actions to have a flag indicating if the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a TPM) or not, in which case configuration is created, same as if the client had used <edit-config>, but without needing to touch the key.

I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and I
think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case the
requested action cannot be performed.

I am not sure I understand install-hidden-key. The description says:

           "Requests the device to load the specified values into
            a hidden key.  The resulting asymmetric key values are
            considered operational state and hence present only in
            <operational>.";

So what is the persistence model of this? Does a key installed with
install-hidden-key survive reboots? If so, can I delete somehow such a
hidden key? (Is the answer that this key is tied to the lifetime of
the list element indirectly using this grouping?) Does invoking
install-hidden-key twice cause the first installed key to be
overwritten? Can the install-hidden-key action fail in any way?

This leads to related questions for generate-hidden-key: Does invoking
this action twice cause an existing key to be overwritten? Can I
explicitely delete a generated hidden key? Does deleting the list item
that directly or indirectly uses this grouping delete a hidden key?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Wed Apr 24 11:48:42 2019
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From: "Alexander Clemm" <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: "'Takeshi Takahashi'" <takeshi_takahashi@nict.go.jp>, <secdir@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22
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Hi Takeshi,

Thank you for your review!  Please see replies inline, <ALEX>

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Takeshi Takahashi via
Datatracker
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 12:14 AM
To: secdir@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push.all@ietf.org; netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [netconf] Secdir last call review of
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22

Reviewer: Takeshi Takahashi
Review result: Has Nits

This draft talks about push-type update notifications of YANG datastore. It
provides two types of subscriptions: periodic and on-change. I have one
comments (item 4) and four clarification questions (items 1-3) below.

1. on the on-change subscription (in sections 3.3 and 3.10)

The draft says "it will be important for client applications to have a way
to identify for which objects on-change notifications are supported and for
which ones they are not supported," but this issue is currently left to the
implementation. It would be nice if you could provide some example solutions
to this problem so that the implementers of this draft will not be confused.

When a publisher accept on-change subscription even when the scope of the
subscription contains objects for which on-change is not supported, I wonder
sending some notification message on the situation could be helpful for the
subscriber. By reading other part of the draft, I feel that the draft is
indeed recommending to implement such comprehensive notifications. If so, it
had better be clearly mentioned in this section. I also think it is not a
bad idea to define such a comprehensive notification in this draft, though
it is up to the authors.

<ALEX> Because the solution to the topic of knowing for which objects
on-change notifications are supported is indeed complex, this is actually
being deferred to a different draft,
draft-ietf-netconf-notification-capabilities, which allows a subscriber to
precisely discover where this is supported and where not.   As to what to do
when a subscription's scope contains objects not capable of on-change
notifications,  section 3.3 states "Whether or not to accept or reject
on-change subscription requests when the scope of the subscription contains
objects for which on-change is not supported is up to the publisher
implementation."  There are no separate notifications that will be sent;
instead this is handled through replies to the request.  Notifications are
only sent when the state of the subscription changes, which would include
scenarios in which the server decides it can no longer support the
subscription (due to dynamic changes, or whatever) after all.  
</ALEX>

2. on the differing dampening periods for multiple objects(in section 3)

The draft says "In case whether a subscriber wants to have separate
dampening periods for different objects, the subscriber has the option to
create multiple subscriptions with different selection filters." That is a
good solution. Then are the any other options for allowing to have separate
dampening periods for different objects? The sentence gave me the impression
that there are multiple options; so I am asking this question only for
clarification.


<ALEX> No, this is the only option.  Within a subscription only one
dampening period applies.  Anything else would make configuration and
figuring out what is going on super complex.  Hence the solution of applying
separate subscription if an application indeed requires different settings
for different subscribed objects.  
</ALEX>

3. imcomplete-update flag (in sections 3.11.1 and 4.3.2)

I am not sure what would be the expected actions of the subscribers when
they receive a message with incomplete-update flag on. Some navigations
would be appreciated. Meanwhile, according to section 4.3.2, a publisher MAY
subsequently send a push-update containing a full selection snapshot of
subscribed data. If such a push-update is subsequently sent, does the
publisher need to send anoter message with incomplete-update flag on prior
to the push-update with a full selection snapshot of subscribed data?

<ALEX> When a message with an incomplete-update flag is received, what it
will do is really up to the receiver.  Really, the flag is there only for
exceptions to let the receiver know if due to some unforeseen and
unavoidable circumstance the server is not able to fulfill its obligation
per the terms of the subscription.  

The actual exception handling that a receiver application would apply when
receiving a push-update with an incomplete flag depends on the application.
A receiver could choose to resynch (retrieving all subscribed information).
It could choose to wait (some applications may be okay with the loss of some
information, but at least they know).  It could choose to tear down the
subscription and start a new one, perhaps with a lesser scope.   We will add
this sentence to make this clear; will this address your concerns?

I am not clear on the second part of your question regarding sending another
message with incomplete flag.  The goal of the push-update with a full
selection snapshot of subscribed data is to make sure that the receiver is
again in sync with the subscribed data; only if for some reason that would
fail (and be incomplete again) an incomplete flag would be set.  Obviously,
if there are continuous problems (i.e. incomplete-update occurs all the
time, no resync possible), this constitutes an error condition; the
publisher may suspend the subscription in this case (as stated) and the
subscribing application may decide that the subscription of the publisher
are useless.  
</ALEX>

4. security considerations (in section 7)

This section enumerates four threats that are newly introduced by this
draft.
Some countermeasures, or directions to address these threats, had better be
provided here.

<ALEX> Not exactly sure what to put here.  We do mention that NACM should be
used to restrict access.  
Since most of the attacks involve modifying the terms of the subscription,
we can add a sentence to the effect of:  
"A subscriber could monitor the subscription configuration itself for any
unexpected changes.  For this, they should monitor notifications regarding
updates to their subscriptions to validate that these updates were indeed
intended.  They could even subscribe to updates to the YANG datastore nodes
that represent their datastore subscriptions."  
Will this address your concern?  
</ALEX>

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From: "Alexander Clemm" <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: "'Stewart Bryant'" <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, <gen-art@ietf.org>
Cc: <draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push.all@ietf.org>, <ietf@ietf.org>, <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22
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Hi Stewart,

Thank you for your comments!  Please find replies inline, <ALEX>

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: netconf <netconf-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant via
Datatracker
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 1:41 PM
To: gen-art@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org;
netconf@ietf.org
Subject: [netconf] Genart last call review of
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22

Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review result: Ready with Nits

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review
Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for
the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just like any other last call
comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22
Reviewer: Stewart Bryant
Review Date: 2019-04-10
IETF LC End Date: 2019-04-12
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary: A well written document with just a small nuber of minor matter in
the nits section that need to be considered.

Major issues: None

Minor issues: None

Nits/editorial comments:

  ** Obsolete normative reference: RFC 7895 (Obsoleted by RFC 8525)
============

<ALEX> We will update the reference.
</ALEX>

SB> I assume that the ADs are happy with seven front page authors.

===========
 Abstract

   Via the mechanism described in this document, subscriber applications
SB> I am not sure if  starting a sentence with "via" is good English but 
SB> I have not seen it done before.

<ALEX> we think "via" is fine; if you prefer it to say "using", please let
us know and we will change it.  
</ALEX>

===========
   Traditional approaches to providing visibility into managed entities
   from remote have been built on polling.
SB> from remote what?

<ALEX> from a remote system, a remote application, a remote location.  
I do think this is clear; if you prefer it to say "from a remote system" we
will change; please let us know if you would prefer to make that change.  
</ALEX>

===========

3.10.  On-Change Notifiable Datastore Nodes

   In some cases, a publisher supporting on-change notifications may not
   be able to push on-change updates for some object types.  Reasons for
   this might be that the value of the datastore node changes frequently
   (e.g., [RFC8343]'s in-octets counter), that small object changes are
   frequent and meaningless (e.g., a temperature gauge changing 0.1
   degrees), or that the implementation is not capable of on-change
   notification for a particular object.

SB> I could not see the parameter range specifiy what is regarded as 
SB> trivial specified in the model. It seems that it perhaps ought to be.
===================

<ALEX> This will depend heavily on the object and its intended use.
Basically we are giving only reasons why an implementation might choose to
not support on-change notifications for a particular object.  Going deeper
into reasoning behind such implementation choices, what size would be
"small" or "large", and over what time interval, etc, would IMHO go beyond
the scope of this document.  We prefer not to make a change to the document.
(Please note that there is another draft on smart filters for push updates,
which might in the future add the ability for users to e.g. configure this
and other things.)
</ALEx>

   The next figure depicts augmentations of module ietf-yang-push to the
   notifications that are specified in module ietf-subscribed-
   notifications.  The augmentations allow to include subscription
SB> s/allow to include/allow the inclusion of/
===============


<ALEX> We will make this change.
</ALEX>

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From: "Alexander Clemm" <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: "'Dan Romascanu'" <dromasca@gmail.com>, <ops-dir@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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Hello Dan,

Thank you for your review!

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Romascanu via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>=20
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:54 PM
To: ops-dir@ietf.org
Cc: netconf@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org; dromasca@gmail.com
Subject: Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13

Reviewer: Dan Romascanu
Review result: Ready

This document describes the RESTCONF binding to the dynamic subscription =
capability of both subscribed notifications and YANG-Push. It's a useful =
and important addition to the RESTCONF protocol mechanisms, and =
operators should pay attention. The document is not easy reading, as it =
relies on several other documents, but the references in the text help. =
It would have helped if some notes were added concerning the possible =
actions that the operators need to take in order to ensure optimal =
behavior (initial configuration for example) or indications about when =
to use one or the other of the notifications mechanisms.
This is not blocking, however, and the document is READY for =
publication.




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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Hi Juergen,


> Perhaps this should say 'implementation specific' instead 'application
> specific'.

Changed in my local copy.


>> My recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key" =
(renamed to just "generate/install-key") actions to have a flag =
indicating if the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a =
TPM) or not, in which case configuration is created, same as if the =
client had used <edit-config>, but without needing to touch the key.
>=20
> I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and I
> think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case the
> requested action cannot be performed.
>=20
> I am not sure I understand install-hidden-key. The description says:
>=20
>           "Requests the device to load the specified values into
>            a hidden key.  The resulting asymmetric key values are
>            considered operational state and hence present only in
>            <operational>.";
>=20
> So what is the persistence model of this? Does a key installed with
> install-hidden-key survive reboots? If so, can I delete somehow such a
> hidden key? (Is the answer that this key is tied to the lifetime of
> the list element indirectly using this grouping?) Does invoking
> install-hidden-key twice cause the first installed key to be
> overwritten? Can the install-hidden-key action fail in any way?
>=20
> This leads to related questions for generate-hidden-key: Does invoking
> this action twice cause an existing key to be overwritten? Can I
> explicitely delete a generated hidden key? Does deleting the list item
> that directly or indirectly uses this grouping delete a hidden key?

[Disclaimer: the below reflect my understanding of how the current model =
works, and does not necessarily reflect if we were to flip things around =
by letting the actions generate configuration.]

The expectation is that the "permanently hidden" keys would persist, =
presumably with origin=3Dsystem.

In the YANG, the "permanently-hidden" enum only appears in the =
"asymmetric-key-pair-grouping" grouping.   Consuming data models are =
expected to "use" this grouping under a "config true" node.  This =
grouping's description statement is noteworthy:

 grouping asymmetric-key-pair-grouping {
    description
      "A private/public key pair.
        =20
       The 'algorithm', 'public-key', and 'private-key'  nodes are
       not mandatory because they MAY be defined in <operational>.
       Implementations SHOULD assert that these values are either
       configured or that they exist in <operational>.";
    ...
 }

Thusly it is expected that the client will create the parent node (e.g., =
via <edit-config>) and then invoke either the generate or install hidden =
key action.  Presumably, the lifetime of the permanently hidden key =
would be tied to the lifetime of its parent.

Regarding what happens when the actions are invoked a second time, it's =
not specified.  One choice, perhaps the safe choice, would be to deny =
subsequent attempts, forcing the client to create a new parent node =
instead.  If the parent node is in a list, such as in the keystore, then =
the second key could be created, with certificates bound to it, before =
mapping reference to the old-key to the new-key.  However, if the key is =
not in a list, such as when using a "local-definition", then in in-place =
migration, along with service disruption, would be required.

Of course, one has to ask how often/likely is it that a client wants to =
regenerate the private key.  Presumably it would only be due to the =
concern that the key had been compromised (which shouldn't happen if =
"permanently hidden") or, perhaps, due to a proactive key-rotation =
policy, thinking (misguided, I believe, proven false now) that the =
private key's entropy expires over time.  Regardless, the point is that =
it seems to be an action that would seldomly occur and, when/if it does, =
the effort to create another parent node (in keystore or a =
local-definition) might not be a big deal.

PS: words such as "expectation" and "presumably" are used above to =
indicate a likely need for the text to be more explicit.

Kent // contributor



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From: Wang Haiguang <wang.haiguang.shieldlab@huawei.com>
To: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:22:46 +0000
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Subject: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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Hello, everyone.

Recently there are some discussions in i2nsf group over the crypto algorith=
m identifiers defined in the draft-ietf-cryoto-types.
Please refer to the email thread below for the discussion there:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2nsf/XZevQcuifa_PN6OeZMLaMch3mAo

The basic concerns in the email is as follows:

1.       Crypto-types contains a generic list of crypto algorithms. Some of=
 them are not supported by IPSec, how should they handle this.

a.       Somebody suggest to include a subset of the supported algorithms i=
n their draft. I think it is a good idea.

2.       Some deprecated algorithm are needed by their draft.

a.       Some expert suggested to define those identifiers by them own with=
in their draft. I think this is a feasible solution.

For the above issue, I think we can add some text in draft-ietf-crypto-type=
s to guide users from other group how to handle the above two issues.

Beside that,  in the future, some new algorithms might be added and some al=
gorithms will be deprecated, we have to figure out how to made the algorith=
m list defined by crypto-types flexible.

If you have any suggestion, please post it on the mailing list.

Let's discuss and find a feasible solution to it.

Best Regards.

Haiguang

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello, everyone. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Recently there are some discussions in i2nsf group o=
ver the crypto algorithm identifiers defined in the draft-ietf-cryoto-types=
.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please refer to the email thread below for the discu=
ssion there:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Microsoft YaHei&quot;,sans-serif;color:#954F72;background:#F7F7F7"><a href=
=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2nsf/XZevQcuifa_PN6OeZMLaMch3mAo=
">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2nsf/XZevQcuifa_PN6OeZMLaMch3mAo</=
a><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot=
;Microsoft YaHei&quot;,sans-serif;color:#954F72;background:#F7F7F7"><o:p><s=
pan style=3D"text-decoration:none">&nbsp;</span></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The basic concerns in the email is as follows:<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Crypto-types contains a generic list of crypto algo=
rithms. Some of them are not supported by IPSec, how should they handle thi=
s. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Somebody suggest to include a subset of the support=
ed algorithms in their draft. I think it is a good idea. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style=
=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Some deprecated algorithm are needed by their draft=
. <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in=
;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">a.<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Some expert suggested to define those identifiers b=
y them own within their draft. I think this is a feasible solution.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the above issue, I think we can add some text in=
 draft-ietf-crypto-types to guide users from other group how to handle the =
above two issues.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Beside that, &nbsp;in the future, some new algorithm=
s might be added and some algorithms will be deprecated, we have to figure =
out how to made the algorithm list defined by crypto-types flexible.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you have any suggestion, please post it on the ma=
iling list.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let&#8217;s discuss and find a feasible solution to =
it. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best Regards.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Haiguang <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Wang Haiguang <wang.haiguang.shieldlab@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 03:22:46AM +0000, Wang Haiguang wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
> 
> Recently there are some discussions in i2nsf group over the crypto algorithm identifiers defined in the draft-ietf-cryoto-types.
> Please refer to the email thread below for the discussion there:
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2nsf/XZevQcuifa_PN6OeZMLaMch3mAo
> 
> The basic concerns in the email is as follows:
> 
> 1.       Crypto-types contains a generic list of crypto algorithms. Some of them are not supported by IPSec, how should they handle this.
> 
> a.       Somebody suggest to include a subset of the supported algorithms in their draft. I think it is a good idea.
>

I am not sure what "include a subset of the supported algorithms in their
draft" means. Please explain.

This issue touches on an open issue that we never managed to solve:
Given an arbitrarily extensible set of identifiers, how does an
implementation announce the subset actually supported? And related to
that, can a YANG module define a subset that is expected to be
supported (i.e., a conformance requirement)? I am not sure we have
a YANG next issue for this, but we should.

> 2.       Some deprecated algorithm are needed by their draft.
> 
> a.       Some expert suggested to define those identifiers by them own within their draft. I think this is a feasible solution.
>

This sounds a bit like hiding deprecated crypto somehow under the
carpet. What if multiple technologies need the same deprecated crypto
algorithm? They create multiple identifiers for the same thing or they
get interesting module dependencies? Crypto algorithms come and go and
ietf-crypto-types will sooner or later have identities that will need
to be deprecated because the crypt algorithm is not considered secure
enough anymore. So in the long term, hiding deprecated crypto
algorithms in some corners "under the carpet" will not work. My point
is that "we only have good crypto algorithms defined in
ietf-crypto-types" is not going to work for long.

> For the above issue, I think we can add some text in draft-ietf-crypto-types to guide users from other group how to handle the above two issues.
> 
> Beside that,  in the future, some new algorithms might be added and some algorithms will be deprecated, we have to figure out how to made the algorithm list defined by crypto-types flexible.

The obvious way of dealing with this is to deprecate the identities
when algorithms are considered to be not secure enough anymore.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>
To: Wang Haiguang <wang.haiguang.shieldlab@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Wang Haiguang" <wang.haiguang.shieldlab@huawei.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 4:22 AM

Hello, everyone.

Recently there are some discussions in i2nsf group over the crypto
algorithm identifiers defined in the draft-ietf-cryoto-types.
Please refer to the email thread below for the discussion there:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i2nsf/XZevQcuifa_PN6OeZMLaMch3mAo

The basic concerns in the email is as follows:

1.       Crypto-types contains a generic list of crypto algorithms. Some
of them are not supported by IPSec, how should they handle this.

a.       Somebody suggest to include a subset of the supported
algorithms in their draft. I think it is a good idea.

2.       Some deprecated algorithm are needed by their draft.

a.       Some expert suggested to define those identifiers by them own
within their draft. I think this is a feasible solution.

For the above issue, I think we can add some text in
draft-ietf-crypto-types to guide users from other group how to handle
the above two issues.

Beside that,  in the future, some new algorithms might be added and some
algorithms will be deprecated, we have to figure out how to made the
algorithm list defined by crypto-types flexible.

<tp>

To state the obvious (?), the larger something is the more unstable it
is so putting in the kitchen sink - KEX, HASH, MAC... - all into one
module is going to increase the churn on that module, as opposed to
having separate (sub-?)modules for e.g. KEX, MAC. HASH.

Again, to state the obvious, if this mega-module is published as an RFC,
then it must be updated by further RFC, once agreement has been reached
on what has become obsolete, too insecure etc.

Two technological solutions come to mind; divide the module up into
smaller pieces which would require more changes in total but fewer for
any one of the subdivided modules.

And make the module(s) IANA-controlled which allows a spectrum of ways
in which updates can be performed, from FCFS to Standards Track RFC and
which allows different approaches for e.g. KEX and HASH.

Tom Petch






If you have any suggestion, please post it on the mailing list.

Let's discuss and find a feasible solution to it.

Best Regards.

Haiguang



------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------


> _______________________________________________
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> netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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> This issue touches on an open issue that we never managed to solve:
> Given an arbitrarily extensible set of identifiers, how does an
> implementation announce the subset actually supported? And related to
> that, can a YANG module define a subset that is expected to be
> supported (i.e., a conformance requirement)? I am not sure we have
> a YANG next issue for this, but we should.

Just submitted https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80 =
<https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80>.

Perhaps YANG Library be used for this?



>=20
>> 2.       Some deprecated algorithm are needed by their draft.
>>=20
>> a.       Some expert suggested to define those identifiers by them =
own within their draft. I think this is a feasible solution.
>>=20
>=20
> This sounds a bit like hiding deprecated crypto somehow under the
> carpet. What if multiple technologies need the same deprecated crypto
> algorithm? They create multiple identifiers for the same thing or they
> get interesting module dependencies? Crypto algorithms come and go and
> ietf-crypto-types will sooner or later have identities that will need
> to be deprecated because the crypt algorithm is not considered secure
> enough anymore. So in the long term, hiding deprecated crypto
> algorithms in some corners "under the carpet" will not work. My point
> is that "we only have good crypto algorithms defined in
> ietf-crypto-types" is not going to work for long.

Agreed.  It would seem that crypto-types should define the universe of =
all known algorithms, even it deprecated or obsoleted, and let the =
solution to Issue #80 enable implementations identify the subset they =
support.


>> For the above issue, I think we can add some text in =
draft-ietf-crypto-types to guide users from other group how to handle =
the above two issues.
>>=20
>> Beside that,  in the future, some new algorithms might be added and =
some algorithms will be deprecated, we have to figure out how to made =
the algorithm list defined by crypto-types flexible.
>=20
> The obvious way of dealing with this is to deprecate the identities
> when algorithms are considered to be not secure enough anymore.

Yes, the identity takes "status" as a substatement, so this can be done. =
 =20

This discussion makes me wonder if the module should be called =
iana-crytpo-types and have IANA maintain the module.

Kent // contributor


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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">This issue touches on an open issue that we never managed to =
solve:</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Given an arbitrarily =
extensible set of identifiers, how does an<br class=3D"">implementation =
announce the subset actually supported? And related to<br class=3D"">that,=
 can a YANG module define a subset that is expected to be<br =
class=3D"">supported (i.e., a conformance requirement)? I am not sure we =
have<br class=3D"">a YANG next issue for this, but we should.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Just =
submitted&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80</a>.</div><div=
><br class=3D""></div><div>Perhaps YANG Library be used for =
this?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">2. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Some deprecated algorithm are needed =
by their draft.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">a. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Some expert suggested to define =
those identifiers by them own within their draft. I think this is a =
feasible solution.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">This sounds a bit like hiding deprecated crypto somehow under =
the<br class=3D"">carpet. What if multiple technologies need the same =
deprecated crypto<br class=3D"">algorithm? They create multiple =
identifiers for the same thing or they<br class=3D"">get interesting =
module dependencies? Crypto algorithms come and go and<br =
class=3D"">ietf-crypto-types will sooner or later have identities that =
will need<br class=3D"">to be deprecated because the crypt algorithm is =
not considered secure<br class=3D"">enough anymore. So in the long term, =
hiding deprecated crypto<br class=3D"">algorithms in some corners "under =
the carpet" will not work. My point<br class=3D"">is that "we only have =
good crypto algorithms defined in<br class=3D"">ietf-crypto-types" is =
not going to work for long.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Agreed.=
 &nbsp;It would seem that crypto-types should define the universe of all =
known algorithms, even it deprecated or obsoleted, and let the solution =
to Issue #80 enable implementations identify the subset they =
support.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">For the above issue, I =
think we can add some text in draft-ietf-crypto-types to guide users =
from other group how to handle the above two issues.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Beside that, &nbsp;in the future, some new algorithms might =
be added and some algorithms will be deprecated, we have to figure out =
how to made the algorithm list defined by crypto-types flexible.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The obvious way of dealing with =
this is to deprecate the identities<br class=3D"">when algorithms are =
considered to be not secure enough =
anymore.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Yes, the =
identity takes "status" as a substatement, so this can be done. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This discussion makes =
me wonder if the module should be called iana-crytpo-types and have IANA =
maintain the module.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div>Kent // =
contributor</div><div><br class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> > This issue touches on an open issue that we never managed to solve:
> > Given an arbitrarily extensible set of identifiers, how does an
> > implementation announce the subset actually supported? And related to
> > that, can a YANG module define a subset that is expected to be
> > supported (i.e., a conformance requirement)? I am not sure we have
> > a YANG next issue for this, but we should.
> 
> Just submitted https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80
> <https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80>.
> 
> Perhaps YANG Library be used for this?

This requirement is already captured in #40.


/martin


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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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> On Apr 25, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:
>=20
> Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> This issue touches on an open issue that we never managed to solve:
>>> Given an arbitrarily extensible set of identifiers, how does an
>>> implementation announce the subset actually supported? And related =
to
>>> that, can a YANG module define a subset that is expected to be
>>> supported (i.e., a conformance requirement)? I am not sure we have
>>> a YANG next issue for this, but we should.
>>=20
>> Just submitted https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80
>> <https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80>.
>>=20
>> Perhaps YANG Library can be used for this?
>=20
> This requirement is already captured in #40.

The issues are related, but seem like two sides of a coin:

   #40 regards deviating away what is not supported
   #80 regards expressing what is supported

Of course, what is supported could be form of implementing the module =
and then deviating away what's not used, but is it ideal?  =20

For instance, a server may implement different modules that use =
different sets of identities (e.g., because they use different libraries =
in the backend), such that what is not supported in one module (and =
hence the deviated away) is supported in the other (and hence shouldn't =
be deviated away).


Kent // contributor



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 25, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Martin Bjorklund &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" class=3D"">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Kent Watsen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent@watsen.net" =
class=3D"">kent@watsen.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">This issue touches on an open issue that we =
never managed to solve:<br class=3D"">Given an arbitrarily extensible =
set of identifiers, how does an<br class=3D"">implementation announce =
the subset actually supported? And related to<br class=3D"">that, can a =
YANG module define a subset that is expected to be<br class=3D"">supported=
 (i.e., a conformance requirement)? I am not sure we have<br class=3D"">a =
YANG next issue for this, but we should.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Just submitted <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80</a><br =
class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80</a>&gt;.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Perhaps YANG Library can be used for this?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">This requirement is already =
captured in #40.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">The issues are related, but seem like two =
sides of a coin:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;#40 regards deviating away what is not =
supported</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;#80 regards expressing what =
is supported</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Of =
course, what is supported could be form of implementing the module and =
then deviating away what's not used, but is it ideal? =
&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For=
 instance, a server may implement different modules that use different =
sets of identities (e.g., because they use different libraries in the =
backend), such that what is not supported in one module (and hence the =
deviated away) is supported in the other (and hence shouldn't be =
deviated away).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent // =
contributor</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_CF90D05C-DB7F-4372-992D-E37A270C8671--


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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 25, 2019, at 12:51 PM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> This issue touches on an open issue that we never managed to solve:
> >>> Given an arbitrarily extensible set of identifiers, how does an
> >>> implementation announce the subset actually supported? And related to
> >>> that, can a YANG module define a subset that is expected to be
> >>> supported (i.e., a conformance requirement)? I am not sure we have
> >>> a YANG next issue for this, but we should.
> >> 
> >> Just submitted https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80
> >> <https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/80>.
> >> 
> >> Perhaps YANG Library can be used for this?
> > 
> > This requirement is already captured in #40.
> 
> The issues are related, but seem like two sides of a coin:
> 
>    #40 regards deviating away what is not supported
>    #80 regards expressing what is supported
> 
> Of course, what is supported could be form of implementing the module
> and then deviating away what's not used, but is it ideal?

Right, this is part of #40.  IMO #40 states the *problem* but not the
solution.  It is unfortunate that the title indicates a solution, but
that is the case for many of our other issues as well.


/martin


> 
> For instance, a server may implement different modules that use
> different sets of identities (e.g., because they use different
> libraries in the backend), such that what is not supported in one
> module (and hence the deviated away) is supported in the other (and
> hence shouldn't be deviated away).
> 
> 
> Kent // contributor
> 
> 


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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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>>> This requirement is already captured in #40.
>> 
>> The issues are related, but seem like two sides of a coin:
>> 
>>   #40 regards deviating away what is not supported
>>   #80 regards expressing what is supported
>> 
>> Of course, what is supported could be form of implementing the module
>> and then deviating away what's not used, but is it ideal?
> 
> Right, this is part of #40.  IMO #40 states the *problem* but not the
> solution.  It is unfortunate that the title indicates a solution, but
> that is the case for many of our other issues as well.

The titles can and should be updated to reflect the true problem.
Could you update #40 and close #80 with label "Duplicate"?

In the meanwhile, what's the stop-gap solution?   - crypto-types
shouldn't be blocked on YANG Next...

Kent


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">This requirement is =
already captured in #40.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The =
issues are related, but seem like two sides of a coin:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;#40 regards deviating away what is not =
supported<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;#80 regards expressing what is =
supported<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Of course, what is supported =
could be form of implementing the module<br class=3D"">and then =
deviating away what's not used, but is it ideal?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Right, this is part of #40. =
&nbsp;IMO #40 states the *problem* but not the<br class=3D"">solution. =
&nbsp;It is unfortunate that the title indicates a solution, but<br =
class=3D"">that is the case for many of our other issues as well.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""><div>The titles can =
and should be updated to reflect the true problem.</div><div>Could you =
update #40 and close #80 with label "Duplicate"?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In the meanwhile, what's the stop-gap solution? =
&nbsp; - crypto-types</div><div>shouldn't be blocked on YANG =
Next...</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Kent</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Kent Watsen <kent@watsen.net>
CC: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, <wang.haiguang.shieldlab@huawei.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 09:21:43PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> 
> In the meanwhile, what's the stop-gap solution?   - crypto-types
> shouldn't be blocked on YANG Next...
> 

What we have been doing so far is publishing identities / enumerations
without having a common way for implementations to declare the subset
they do support. This seems reasonable since once we add a common
mechanism to report the subset actually implemented, we do not have to
go back and revise the definitions of identities and enumerations.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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> On Apr 25, 2019, at 5:45 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 09:21:43PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
>>=20
>> In the meanwhile, what's the stop-gap solution?   - crypto-types
>> shouldn't be blocked on YANG Next...
>>=20
>=20
> What we have been doing so far is publishing identities / enumerations
> without having a common way for implementations to declare the subset
> they do support. This seems reasonable since once we add a common
> mechanism to report the subset actually implemented, we do not have to
> go back and revise the definitions of identities and enumerations.

Sounds right, with the clarification that crypto-types should have =
identities for all (within reason) known algorithms, even if deprecated =
or obsolete, and that for those algorithms that are deprecated or =
obsolete, the identity's "status" statement should be set to =
"deprecated" or "obsolete" accordingly.

Haiguang, can you please point the i2nsf group to this thread?

Thanks,
Kent


--Apple-Mail=_E5966A6B-C1D3-4AB3-8051-6B92283D7129
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Apr 25, 2019, at 5:45 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 09:21:43PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">In the =
meanwhile, what's the stop-gap solution? &nbsp;&nbsp;- crypto-types<br =
class=3D"">shouldn't be blocked on YANG Next...<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">What we have been doing so far is =
publishing identities / enumerations<br class=3D"">without having a =
common way for implementations to declare the subset<br class=3D"">they =
do support. This seems reasonable since once we add a common<br =
class=3D"">mechanism to report the subset actually implemented, we do =
not have to<br class=3D"">go back and revise the definitions of =
identities and enumerations.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Sounds right, with the clarification<span style=3D"font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;that crypto-types should have identities for all =
(within reason) known algorithms, even if&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14.666666984558105px;" class=3D"">deprecated or obsolete, and that for =
those algorithms that are&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">deprecated or obsolete,</span><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;the</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=3D"">&nbsp;identity's =
"status" statement should be set to "deprecated" or "obsolete" =
accordingly.</span></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Haiguang, can you please point the&nbsp;<span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14.666666984558105px;" class=3D"">i2nsf group to this =
thread?</span></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Kent</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Wang Haiguang <wang.haiguang.shieldlab@huawei.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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References: <0100016a554785f6-a0f918fc-5396-4410-8320-701f65abf6c0-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190425.185116.1747028954255365462.mbj@tail-f.com> <0100016a559fd6c6-0deaad17-593f-434c-94b6-111ac0619a3c-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190425.205039.1112892422143145313.mbj@tail-f.com> <0100016a5660266f-69525394-213b-4cc1-ae5c-89d8d93a6160-000000@email.amazonses.com> <20190425214516.n2fi3bc3volpv5lr@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>, <0100016a5a09b22c-052a4155-dd9d-466d-a16f-9e84adfbc852-000000@email.amazonses.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draft-ietf-crypto-types
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Hi, Kent and all

Sorry for the late reply due to time differences.

I will post the link to i2nsf tonight and let them aware the discussion in =
netconf.

Best regards.

Haiguang


________________________________
From: Kent Watsen [kent+ietf@watsen.net]
Sent: Friday, 26 April, 2019 10:25:46 PM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder
Cc: Martin Bjorklund; Wang Haiguang; netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers in draf=
t-ietf-crypto-types



On Apr 25, 2019, at 5:45 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-=
university.de<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 09:21:43PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:

In the meanwhile, what's the stop-gap solution?   - crypto-types
shouldn't be blocked on YANG Next...


What we have been doing so far is publishing identities / enumerations
without having a common way for implementations to declare the subset
they do support. This seems reasonable since once we add a common
mechanism to report the subset actually implemented, we do not have to
go back and revise the definitions of identities and enumerations.

Sounds right, with the clarification that crypto-types should have identiti=
es for all (within reason) known algorithms, even if deprecated or obsolete=
, and that for those algorithms that are deprecated or obsolete, the identi=
ty's "status" statement should be set to "deprecated" or "obsolete" accordi=
ngly.

Haiguang, can you please point the i2nsf group to this thread?

Thanks,
Kent


--_000_0AE05CBFB1A6A0468C8581DAE58A31309E3DD12BSINEML521MBXchi_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
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<html dir=3D"ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" id=3D"owaParaStyle"></style>
</head>
<body class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; line-break:after-white-spac=
e" fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">Hi, Kent and all
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sorry for the late reply due to time differences.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I will post the link to i2nsf tonight and let them aware the discussio=
n in netconf.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Haiguang&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF451394" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font face=3D"Tahoma" si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Kent Watsen [kent&#43;ietf@watsen.n=
et]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 26 April, 2019 10:25:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Juergen Schoenwaelder<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Martin Bjorklund; Wang Haiguang; netconf@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netconf] The maintenance of the algorithm identifiers =
in draft-ietf-crypto-types<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><br class=3D"">
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Apr 25, 2019, at 5:45 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" class=3D"" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 09:21:43PM &#43;0000, Kent Watsen w=
rote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
In the meanwhile, what's the stop-gap solution? &nbsp;&nbsp;- crypto-types<=
br class=3D"">
shouldn't be blocked on YANG Next...<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
What we have been doing so far is publishing identities / enumerations<br c=
lass=3D"">
without having a common way for implementations to declare the subset<br cl=
ass=3D"">
they do support. This seems reasonable since once we add a common<br class=
=3D"">
mechanism to report the subset actually implemented, we do not have to<br c=
lass=3D"">
go back and revise the definitions of identities and enumerations.<br class=
=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Sounds right, with the clarification<span class=3D"" style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.666666984558105px">&nbsp;t=
hat crypto-types should have identities for all (within reason) known algor=
ithms, even if&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif; font-size:14.666666984558105px">deprecated
 or obsolete, and that for those algorithms that are&nbsp;</span><span clas=
s=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.66666698455810=
5px">deprecated or obsolete,</span><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif; font-size:14.666666984558105px">&nbsp;the</span><span cla=
ss=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.6666669845581=
05px">&nbsp;identity's
 &quot;status&quot; statement should be set to &quot;deprecated&quot; or &q=
uot;obsolete&quot; accordingly.</span></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Haiguang, can you please point the&nbsp;<span class=3D"" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:14.666666984558105px">i2ns=
f group to this thread?</span></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Thanks,</div>
<div class=3D"">Kent</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_0AE05CBFB1A6A0468C8581DAE58A31309E3DD12BSINEML521MBXchi_--


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Subject: [netconf] reverting back to feature statements with boolean expressions
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The netconf-client-server and restconf-client-server drafts define =
top-level features ("initiate", "listen", and "call home"), under which =
there are fine-grained if-feature statements (e.g. "ssh-listen", =
tis-listen", ssh-call-home, tls-call-home, etc.).

These can be seen in the following tree diagrams:

  netconf-client-server:
    - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-11#se=
ction-3.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-11#s=
ection-3.1>
    - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-11#se=
ction-4.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-11#s=
ection-4.1>

  restconf-client-server:
    - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-11#s=
ection-2.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-11#=
section-2.1>
    - =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-11#s=
ection-3.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-11#=
section-3.1>


This begs the question, why aren't these drafts using "if-feature" =
statements with boolean expression, as this was the use case for adding =
them to RFC 7950: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7950#section-7.20.2.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7950#section-7.20.2.1>.

We originally had the boolean expressions, but reverted them because (I =
think) tools (pyang, yanglint, etc.) didn't understand them. =20

I just switched the "if-feature" statements back to their original forms =
using boolean expressions (i.e. if-feature "listen"  --->  if-feature =
"ssh-listen or tls-listen") and all the tooling seems to work.

Thusly, I propose to make this change permanent.  Unless there are any =
objections raised, this change will be in the next published update.

Kent // contributor



--Apple-Mail=_8076C19B-71AD-4747-B62B-2ED5EEBE2586
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	charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
netconf-client-server and restconf-client-server drafts define top-level =
features ("initiate", "listen", and "call home"), under which there are =
fine-grained if-feature statements (e.g. "ssh-listen", tis-listen", =
ssh-call-home, tls-call-home, etc.).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">These can be seen in the following tree =
diagrams:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 netconf-client-server:</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-serv=
er-11#section-3.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-s=
erver-11#section-3.1</a></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-serv=
er-11#section-4.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-s=
erver-11#section-4.1</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; restconf-client-server:</div>&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-ser=
ver-11#section-2.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-=
server-11#section-2.1</a><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-ser=
ver-11#section-3.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-=
server-11#section-3.1</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This begs the question, =
why aren't these drafts using "if-feature" statements with boolean =
expression, as this was the use case for adding them to RFC =
7950:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7950#section-7.20.2.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7950#section-7.20.2.1</a>.</div>=
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We originally had =
the boolean expressions, but reverted them because (I think) tools =
(pyang, yanglint, etc.) didn't understand them. &nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I just switched the =
"if-feature" statements back to their original forms using boolean =
expressions (i.e. if-feature "listen" &nbsp;---&gt; &nbsp;if-feature =
"ssh-listen or tls-listen") and all the tooling seems to work.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thusly, I propose to =
make this change permanent. &nbsp;Unless there are any objections =
raised, this change will be in the next published update.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent // =
contributor</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8076C19B-71AD-4747-B62B-2ED5EEBE2586--


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Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 22:00:03 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
Cc: Aanchal Malhotra <aanchal4@bu.edu>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <20190429030003.GJ60332@kduck.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Secdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif-13
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On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 05:53:02PM +0000, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote:
> On 2019-04-19, 11:56 PM, "Benjamin Kaduk" <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>     On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 09:29:35PM +0000, Reshad Rahman (rrahman) wrote:
>     > Hi Aanchal,
>     > 
>     > Thanks for the review. Please see inline.
>     > 
>     > On 2019-04-11, 5:54 PM, "netconf on behalf of Aanchal Malhotra via Datatracker" <netconf-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>     > 
>     >     Reviewer: Aanchal Malhotra
>     >     Review result: Ready
>     >     
>     >     The document is very clear and concise.  I just have one minor clarification question.
>     >     Section 3.4 Page 9 that says the following:
>     >     "In addition to any required ........SHOULD only be allowed......".  
>     >     
>     >     Is there a reason for using SHOULD instead of MUST? 
>     > 
>     > There may be reasons why an implementation decides not to enforce this restriction. Going by RFC2119 definitions, this is why we chose SHOULD instead of MUST.
>     
>     If you have some reasons in mind, it is often helpful to list them as
>     examples of when the recommended behavior would not be followed.
> 
> What we had in mind is a "super-user" who could be given access to subscriptions of other users. Is this obvious or should I can add text to that effect at the end the bullet below? Something along the lines of "For example, a RESTCONF username with the required administrative permissions could be allowed to invoke RPCs modify-subscription, resync-subscription and delete-subscription on a subscription which was created by another username.".
> 
>    o  In addition to any required access permissions (e.g., NACM), RPCs
>       modify-subscription, resync-subscription and delete-subscription
>       SHOULD only be allowed by the same RESTCONF username [RFC8040]
>       which invoked establish-subscription.

I think it might help to have such text, though I would suggest a slightly
pithier "Such a restriction generally serves to preserve users' privacy, but
exceptions might be made for administrators that may need to modify or
delete other users' subscriptions."

Thanks,

Ben


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To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Thread-Topic: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Hi,

Kent, I'm fine with your proposals.

Regarding subsequent calls to the actions, I agree the safe choice would be=
 to deny them; otherwise, one could run into invalid key pairs (where a cer=
tificate was already configured) and authentication failures with network p=
eers (especially in SSH-key-based-authentication case).=20

Br,
Balazs

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 10:30 PM
> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
> Cc: Bal=E1zs Kov=E1cs <balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com>; netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
>=20
> Hi Juergen,
>=20
>=20
> > Perhaps this should say 'implementation specific' instead 'application
> > specific'.
>=20
> Changed in my local copy.
>=20
>=20
> >> My recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key"
> (renamed to just "generate/install-key") actions to have a flag indicatin=
g if
> the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a TPM) or not, i=
n
> which case configuration is created, same as if the client had used <edit=
-
> config>, but without needing to touch the key.
> >
> > I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and I
> > think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case the
> > requested action cannot be performed.
> >
> > I am not sure I understand install-hidden-key. The description says:
> >
> >           "Requests the device to load the specified values into
> >            a hidden key.  The resulting asymmetric key values are
> >            considered operational state and hence present only in
> >            <operational>.";
> >
> > So what is the persistence model of this? Does a key installed with
> > install-hidden-key survive reboots? If so, can I delete somehow such a
> > hidden key? (Is the answer that this key is tied to the lifetime of
> > the list element indirectly using this grouping?) Does invoking
> > install-hidden-key twice cause the first installed key to be
> > overwritten? Can the install-hidden-key action fail in any way?
> >
> > This leads to related questions for generate-hidden-key: Does invoking
> > this action twice cause an existing key to be overwritten? Can I
> > explicitely delete a generated hidden key? Does deleting the list item
> > that directly or indirectly uses this grouping delete a hidden key?
>=20
> [Disclaimer: the below reflect my understanding of how the current model
> works, and does not necessarily reflect if we were to flip things around =
by
> letting the actions generate configuration.]
>=20
> The expectation is that the "permanently hidden" keys would persist,
> presumably with origin=3Dsystem.
>=20
> In the YANG, the "permanently-hidden" enum only appears in the
> "asymmetric-key-pair-grouping" grouping.   Consuming data models are
> expected to "use" this grouping under a "config true" node.  This groupin=
g's
> description statement is noteworthy:
>=20
>  grouping asymmetric-key-pair-grouping {
>     description
>       "A private/public key pair.
>=20
>        The 'algorithm', 'public-key', and 'private-key'  nodes are
>        not mandatory because they MAY be defined in <operational>.
>        Implementations SHOULD assert that these values are either
>        configured or that they exist in <operational>.";
>     ...
>  }
>=20
> Thusly it is expected that the client will create the parent node (e.g., =
via
> <edit-config>) and then invoke either the generate or install hidden key
> action.  Presumably, the lifetime of the permanently hidden key would be
> tied to the lifetime of its parent.
>=20
> Regarding what happens when the actions are invoked a second time, it's
> not specified.  One choice, perhaps the safe choice, would be to deny
> subsequent attempts, forcing the client to create a new parent node inste=
ad.
> If the parent node is in a list, such as in the keystore, then the second=
 key
> could be created, with certificates bound to it, before mapping reference=
 to
> the old-key to the new-key.  However, if the key is not in a list, such a=
s when
> using a "local-definition", then in in-place migration, along with servic=
e
> disruption, would be required.
>=20
> Of course, one has to ask how often/likely is it that a client wants to
> regenerate the private key.  Presumably it would only be due to the conce=
rn
> that the key had been compromised (which shouldn't happen if
> "permanently hidden") or, perhaps, due to a proactive key-rotation policy=
,
> thinking (misguided, I believe, proven false now) that the private key's
> entropy expires over time.  Regardless, the point is that it seems to be =
an
> action that would seldomly occur and, when/if it does, the effort to crea=
te
> another parent node (in keystore or a local-definition) might not be a bi=
g
> deal.
>=20
> PS: words such as "expectation" and "presumably" are used above to
> indicate a likely need for the text to be more explicit.
>=20
> Kent // contributor
>=20


From nobody Mon Apr 29 06:12:52 2019
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Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: No Objection

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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting a streaming telemetry for changes in datastore appears quite useful.

Please note that I did not review in depth after the section 4.

Comments
--------

C1) Out of curiosity, it is surprising for a netconf wg document to have 7
errors indicated by the YANG validator. Are they real errors or is the `pyang`
validator incorrect or missing references?

C2) 7 authors... the limit is usually 5 authors max. Can you justify?

C3) section 2. It should be RFC 8174 without citing RFC 2119.

C4) section 3.7, why not forcing a resynch (and a patch-id of 0) rather than
simply rolling explicitly the patch-id to 0. The latter seems to me as prone to
synchronization errors.

Nits
----

N1) unsure why all Cisco Systems authors are not grouped together

N2) "Xpath": should be described (or having a reference) before first use in
section 3.6

N3) a couple of "yang" in lowercase while I believe "YANG" is always written in
uppercase



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From nobody Mon Apr 29 06:51:11 2019
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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

 1) Sec 2.3:
   “Where TCP is used, a publisher which supports the "dscp" feature
   SHOULD ensure that a subscription's notification messages are
   returned within a single TCP transport session where all traffic
   shares the subscription's "dscp" leaf value.“
This should probably be generalised to “If a connection-oriented protocol is
used, …”, however, I’m not sure I understand the sentence correctly. It is no
problem to have multiple TCP session using the same DSCP value, however, what
should be avoided is using different DCSP values within the same TCP
connection. Can you please clarify what this sentence is supposed to say?

 2) Also sec 2.3:
“For the "weighting" parameter, when concurrently dequeuing
   notification messages from multiple subscriptions to a receiver, the
   publisher MUST allocate bandwidth to each subscription proportionally
   to the weights assigned to those subscriptions.”
I’m also wondering about this sentence. Should this really be a MUST? I can
assume that there could also be cases where there is a local policy to
prioritise some notification. And do you really mean bandwidth (which would
mean taking the message size into account), or would it make sense to leave the
details to the exact implementation of the publisher and maybe talk just about
“resources” instead?

 3) Sec 1.3 says
“ the loss of the transport session will
      result in the immediate termination of any associated dynamic
      subscriptions.”
However, there is the following text in section 2.4.5:
“The "kill-subscription" operation permits an operator to end a
   dynamic subscription which is not associated with the transport
   session used for the RPC.”
If the subscription is anyway immediately terminated when the transport session
is lost, why is the kill-subscription operation still needed?

 4) Sec 2.5: Please expand VRF.

 5) Figure 8: I would recommend to call the second “evaluate” event
 “re-evaluate” instead.



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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:59:51 +0000
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Subject: [netconf] client authentication in the ietf-[ssh/tls/http]-server models
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The ietf-ssh/tls/http-server models have, or should have, to some extent =
or another, configuration for client authentication, but there appears =
to be a fine line between configuring the kind of authentication needed =
versus configuring to perform the authentication itself.

To clarify:

1) The SSH protocol requires client authentication and itself prompts =
for a username.  Additionally the SSH server needs to be configured as =
to what kinds of client auth it supports (passwords, rsa-key, client =
certs per RFC 6187, etc.).

2) The TLS protocol does not require client authentication, but has a =
configurable option for if the TLS server requests the TLS client to =
send a client certificate.  When client certificates are provided, there =
is a further distinction between authenticating the certificate versus =
extracting an identity from the certificate.

3) The HTTP protocol does not require authentication but, when it does, =
the authentication mechanism resolves to a username.

4) NETCONF-over-SSH inherits SSH's guarantee for username extraction.  =
NETCONF-over-TLS needs to configure the TLS-layer to prompt for the =
client certificate and have configuration for how to extract a username =
from the certificate (i.e., cert-maps).

5) RESTCONF is only HTTP-over-TLS, but leaves it open as to if client =
authentication occurs at the TLS or HTTP (or both) layers.  If client =
auth occurs at the TLS layer, there needs to be configuration for how to =
extract a username from the certificate (i.e., cert-maps).


In general (and exhibited by RFC 7317's "users" model), there is a =
desire to colocate the client auth credentials within the "client" =
nodes, outside of the "transport" tree.

For instance, suppose a hypothetical app has two RESTCONF interfaces; a =
northbound interface for "users" and a southbound interface for =
"devices".  At a very high-level, the app's model looks like this:

    +-- transport
    |   +-- restconf-server-config
    |       +-- listen
    |           +-- endpoint
    |               +-- ... (for northbound interface)
    |           +-- endpoint
    |               +-- ... (for southbound interface)
    +-- users
    |   +-- user
    |       +-- name
    |       +-- http-auth
    |           +-- basic-auth-password
    +-- devices
        +-- device
            +-- name
            +-- tls-auth
            |   +-- trust-anchor-certificate
            |   +-- cert-map
            +-- http-auth
                +-- basic-auth-password


Not that, in the above tree diagram, having a trust-anchor-certificate =
and cert-map configured per-device is very flexible, but likely overkill =
for most circumstances.

In trying to square all of the above, I believe that the =
"client-authentication" nodes in the various <protocol>-server models =
need to be reworked.  My idea is to add a combination of "presence" and =
"choice" node indicating if client authentication 1) is prompted for at =
all, 2) is required or optional, 3) is locally or externally defined, =
and 4) if local, the configuration necessary to perform the local =
configuration.

Whilst a fairly isolated problem (client auth in just the "server" =
models), it is still a pretty complicated edit and difficult to =
describe.  My idea is to make the edit and then publish an update to the =
drafts so it can be seen.  If folks don't like it, we can roll it back.  =
That said, given that I've been staring at this for a few days now, my =
guess/hope is that folks will see it as "better" and we can fine-tune =
tweak it from there.

An updated suite of drafts will be posted this week!  (These updates =
will also address the various other issues raised on list recently).

Kent // contributor








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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Okay, I've added the following text into the generate/install-hidden-key =
descriptions:

OLD:
         The resulting asymmetric key values are
         considered operational state and hence present only in
         <operational>.";

NEW:
         The resulting asymmetric key values are
         considered operational state and hence present only in
         <operational> and bound to the lifetime of the
         parent 'config true' node.  Subsequent invokaions of
         this or the '<other>-hidden-key' action are denied.";

    where <other> is the name of the other action (generate vs. =
install).


Kent


> On Apr 29, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs =
<balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Kent, I'm fine with your proposals.
>=20
> Regarding subsequent calls to the actions, I agree the safe choice =
would be to deny them; otherwise, one could run into invalid key pairs =
(where a certificate was already configured) and authentication failures =
with network peers (especially in SSH-key-based-authentication case).=20
>=20
> Br,
> Balazs
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 10:30 PM
>> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
>> Cc: Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs <balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com>; =
netconf@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
>>=20
>> Hi Juergen,
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Perhaps this should say 'implementation specific' instead =
'application
>>> specific'.
>>=20
>> Changed in my local copy.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>> My recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key"
>> (renamed to just "generate/install-key") actions to have a flag =
indicating if
>> the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a TPM) or =
not, in
>> which case configuration is created, same as if the client had used =
<edit-
>> config>, but without needing to touch the key.
>>>=20
>>> I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and I
>>> think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case the
>>> requested action cannot be performed.
>>>=20
>>> I am not sure I understand install-hidden-key. The description says:
>>>=20
>>>          "Requests the device to load the specified values into
>>>           a hidden key.  The resulting asymmetric key values are
>>>           considered operational state and hence present only in
>>>           <operational>.";
>>>=20
>>> So what is the persistence model of this? Does a key installed with
>>> install-hidden-key survive reboots? If so, can I delete somehow such =
a
>>> hidden key? (Is the answer that this key is tied to the lifetime of
>>> the list element indirectly using this grouping?) Does invoking
>>> install-hidden-key twice cause the first installed key to be
>>> overwritten? Can the install-hidden-key action fail in any way?
>>>=20
>>> This leads to related questions for generate-hidden-key: Does =
invoking
>>> this action twice cause an existing key to be overwritten? Can I
>>> explicitely delete a generated hidden key? Does deleting the list =
item
>>> that directly or indirectly uses this grouping delete a hidden key?
>>=20
>> [Disclaimer: the below reflect my understanding of how the current =
model
>> works, and does not necessarily reflect if we were to flip things =
around by
>> letting the actions generate configuration.]
>>=20
>> The expectation is that the "permanently hidden" keys would persist,
>> presumably with origin=3Dsystem.
>>=20
>> In the YANG, the "permanently-hidden" enum only appears in the
>> "asymmetric-key-pair-grouping" grouping.   Consuming data models are
>> expected to "use" this grouping under a "config true" node.  This =
grouping's
>> description statement is noteworthy:
>>=20
>> grouping asymmetric-key-pair-grouping {
>>    description
>>      "A private/public key pair.
>>=20
>>       The 'algorithm', 'public-key', and 'private-key'  nodes are
>>       not mandatory because they MAY be defined in <operational>.
>>       Implementations SHOULD assert that these values are either
>>       configured or that they exist in <operational>.";
>>    ...
>> }
>>=20
>> Thusly it is expected that the client will create the parent node =
(e.g., via
>> <edit-config>) and then invoke either the generate or install hidden =
key
>> action.  Presumably, the lifetime of the permanently hidden key would =
be
>> tied to the lifetime of its parent.
>>=20
>> Regarding what happens when the actions are invoked a second time, =
it's
>> not specified.  One choice, perhaps the safe choice, would be to deny
>> subsequent attempts, forcing the client to create a new parent node =
instead.
>> If the parent node is in a list, such as in the keystore, then the =
second key
>> could be created, with certificates bound to it, before mapping =
reference to
>> the old-key to the new-key.  However, if the key is not in a list, =
such as when
>> using a "local-definition", then in in-place migration, along with =
service
>> disruption, would be required.
>>=20
>> Of course, one has to ask how often/likely is it that a client wants =
to
>> regenerate the private key.  Presumably it would only be due to the =
concern
>> that the key had been compromised (which shouldn't happen if
>> "permanently hidden") or, perhaps, due to a proactive key-rotation =
policy,
>> thinking (misguided, I believe, proven false now) that the private =
key's
>> entropy expires over time.  Regardless, the point is that it seems to =
be an
>> action that would seldomly occur and, when/if it does, the effort to =
create
>> another parent node (in keystore or a local-definition) might not be =
a big
>> deal.
>>=20
>> PS: words such as "expectation" and "presumably" are used above to
>> indicate a likely need for the text to be more explicit.
>>=20
>> Kent // contributor
>>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Okay,=
 I've added the following text into the generate/install-hidden-key =
descriptions:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">OLD:</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;The resulting asymmetric key values are<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;considered operational state and hence =
present only&nbsp;in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;&lt;operational&gt;.";<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">NEW:</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The resulting asymmetric key values are<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;considered operational =
state and hence present only&nbsp;in<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;operational&gt; and bound to the lifetime of the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;parent 'config true' =
node.&nbsp;&nbsp;Subsequent invokaions of<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;this or the '&lt;other&gt;-hidden-key' action =
are&nbsp;denied.";<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; where &lt;other&gt; is the name of the other action (generate vs. =
install).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Kent</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr =
29, 2019, at 8:24 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi,<br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">Kent, I'm fine with your proposals.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Regarding subsequent calls to the actions, I =
agree the safe choice would be to deny them; otherwise, one could run =
into invalid key pairs (where a certificate was already configured) and =
authentication failures with network peers (especially in =
SSH-key-based-authentication case). <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Br,<br =
class=3D"">Balazs<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: Kent Watsen =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net" =
class=3D"">kent+ietf@watsen.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Sent: Wednesday, =
April 24, 2019 10:30 PM<br class=3D"">To: Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Cc: =
Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" class=3D"">netconf@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently =
hidden<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Juergen,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Perhaps =
this should say 'implementation specific' instead 'application<br =
class=3D"">specific'.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Changed =
in my local copy.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">My =
recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key"<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>(renamed to just =
"generate/install-key") actions to have a flag indicating if<br =
class=3D"">the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a =
TPM) or not, in<br class=3D"">which case configuration is created, same =
as if the client had used &lt;edit-<br class=3D"">config&gt;, but =
without needing to touch the key.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I agree that having a flag to control the =
behavior is useful and I<br class=3D"">think there should be explicit =
text how the action fails in case the<br class=3D"">requested action =
cannot be performed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am not sure I =
understand install-hidden-key. The description says:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"Requests the =
device to load the specified values into<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a hidden =
key. &nbsp;The resulting asymmetric key values are<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;considered =
operational state and hence present only in<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;operationa=
l&gt;.";<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So what is the persistence model =
of this? Does a key installed with<br class=3D"">install-hidden-key =
survive reboots? If so, can I delete somehow such a<br class=3D"">hidden =
key? (Is the answer that this key is tied to the lifetime of<br =
class=3D"">the list element indirectly using this grouping?) Does =
invoking<br class=3D"">install-hidden-key twice cause the first =
installed key to be<br class=3D"">overwritten? Can the =
install-hidden-key action fail in any way?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This leads to related questions for generate-hidden-key: Does =
invoking<br class=3D"">this action twice cause an existing key to be =
overwritten? Can I<br class=3D"">explicitely delete a generated hidden =
key? Does deleting the list item<br class=3D"">that directly or =
indirectly uses this grouping delete a hidden key?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[Disclaimer: the below reflect my =
understanding of how the current model<br class=3D"">works, and does not =
necessarily reflect if we were to flip things around by<br =
class=3D"">letting the actions generate configuration.]<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The expectation is that the "permanently hidden" keys would =
persist,<br class=3D"">presumably with origin=3Dsystem.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">In the YANG, the "permanently-hidden" enum only appears in =
the<br class=3D"">"asymmetric-key-pair-grouping" grouping. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Consuming data models are<br class=3D"">expected to "use" =
this grouping under a "config true" node. &nbsp;This grouping's<br =
class=3D"">description statement is noteworthy:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> grouping asymmetric-key-pair-grouping {<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;description<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"A private/public key pair.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The =
'algorithm', 'public-key', and 'private-key' &nbsp;nodes are<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;not mandatory because =
they MAY be defined in &lt;operational&gt;.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Implementations SHOULD assert that =
these values are either<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;configured or that they exist in =
&lt;operational&gt;.";<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;...<br class=3D"">=
 }<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thusly it is expected that the client =
will create the parent node (e.g., via<br class=3D"">&lt;edit-config&gt;) =
and then invoke either the generate or install hidden key<br =
class=3D"">action. &nbsp;Presumably, the lifetime of the permanently =
hidden key would be<br class=3D"">tied to the lifetime of its parent.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Regarding what happens when the actions are =
invoked a second time, it's<br class=3D"">not specified. &nbsp;One =
choice, perhaps the safe choice, would be to deny<br class=3D"">subsequent=
 attempts, forcing the client to create a new parent node instead.<br =
class=3D"">If the parent node is in a list, such as in the keystore, =
then the second key<br class=3D"">could be created, with certificates =
bound to it, before mapping reference to<br class=3D"">the old-key to =
the new-key. &nbsp;However, if the key is not in a list, such as when<br =
class=3D"">using a "local-definition", then in in-place migration, along =
with service<br class=3D"">disruption, would be required.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Of course, one has to ask how often/likely is =
it that a client wants to<br class=3D"">regenerate the private key. =
&nbsp;Presumably it would only be due to the concern<br class=3D"">that =
the key had been compromised (which shouldn't happen if<br =
class=3D"">"permanently hidden") or, perhaps, due to a proactive =
key-rotation policy,<br class=3D"">thinking (misguided, I believe, =
proven false now) that the private key's<br class=3D"">entropy expires =
over time. &nbsp;Regardless, the point is that it seems to be an<br =
class=3D"">action that would seldomly occur and, when/if it does, the =
effort to create<br class=3D"">another parent node (in keystore or a =
local-definition) might not be a big<br class=3D"">deal.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">PS: words such as "expectation" and "presumably" are used =
above to<br class=3D"">indicate a likely need for the text to be more =
explicit.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Kent // contributor<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 04:17:51PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> Okay, I've added the following text into the generate/install-hidden-key descriptions:
> 
> OLD:
>          The resulting asymmetric key values are
>          considered operational state and hence present only in
>          <operational>.";
> 
> NEW:
>          The resulting asymmetric key values are
>          considered operational state and hence present only in
>          <operational> and bound to the lifetime of the
>          parent 'config true' node.  Subsequent invokaions of
>          this or the '<other>-hidden-key' action are denied.";
> 
>     where <other> is the name of the other action (generate vs. install).

Is it sufficiently clear what 'is denied' means, i.e., how a server
has to report the failure of the action?

/js

PS: s/invokaions/invocations/

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
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> Is it sufficiently clear what 'is denied' means, i.e., how a server
> has to report the failure of the action?

Shall we use the 'data-exists' error-tag?


> PS: s/invokaions/invocations/

Fixed.





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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">Is it sufficiently clear what 'is denied' means, i.e., how a server<br class="">has to report the failure of the action?<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Shall we use the 'data-exists' error-tag?</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="">PS: s/invokaions/invocations/<br class=""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Fixed.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div></div></body></html>
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Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: Discuss

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[putting this out early in the hopes it can be resolved quickly; I'm just
starting to review the document.]

This document started life as a rfc5277bis, published in July 2008, before RFC
5378 (BCP 78) was published in November of 2008.  If we are using any text from
RFC 5277 and did not gain the additional rights declaration from the authors of
that document, this document needs to use a different boilerplate text (the
"pre-2008" text).  I look at the sibling document draft-ietf-netfonf-yang-push
of this document, which does use the pre-2008 boilerplate, and am having a hard
time understanding why this document does not also have the pre-2008
boilerplate.





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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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From nobody Mon Apr 29 11:25:19 2019
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:25:03 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>,  Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 05:58:19PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
> 
> I think you are asking why the following boilerplate text wasn't included...
> 
>    This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF
>    Contributions published or made publicly available before November
>    10, 2008.  The person(s) controlling the copyright in some of this
>    material may not have granted the IETF Trust the right to allow
>    modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process.
>    Without obtaining an adequate license from the person(s) controlling
>    the copyright in such materials, this document may not be modified
>    outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may
>    not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format
>    it for publication as an RFC or to translate it into languages other
>    than English.

Exactly so.

> 
> This was likely an oversight during the initial author's submission.  If this text was included and uploaded as a -24 update, would that cover your concern?

Definitely.
(Note that there's an XML keyword for this; IIRC, <rfc [...]
ipr="pre5378Trust200902">.)

> BTW: the same boilerplate update should also be made to 
> draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notification  and draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif

Thanks for spotting those early!

-Ben

> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-
> > notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
> > 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > DISCUSS:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > [putting this out early in the hopes it can be resolved quickly; I'm just starting to
> > review the document.]
> > 
> > This document started life as a rfc5277bis, published in July 2008, before RFC
> > 5378 (BCP 78) was published in November of 2008.  If we are using any text from
> > RFC 5277 and did not gain the additional rights declaration from the authors of
> > that document, this document needs to use a different boilerplate text (the "pre-
> > 2008" text).  I look at the sibling document draft-ietf-netfonf-yang-push of this
> > document, which does use the pre-2008 boilerplate, and am having a hard time
> > understanding why this document does not also have the pre-2008 boilerplate.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 


From nobody Mon Apr 29 12:13:57 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Subscription to YANG Event Notifications
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-24.txt
	Pages           : 79
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG data model and associated mechanisms
   enabling subscriber-specific subscriptions to a publisher's event
   streams.  Applying these elements allows a subscriber to request for
   and receive a continuous, custom feed of publisher generated
   information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-24
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-24

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-24


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Apr 29 12:16:34 2019
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Subject: [netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-18.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Dynamic subscription to YANG Events and Datastores over NETCONF
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-18.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document provides a NETCONF binding to the dynamic subscription
   capability of both subscribed notifications and YANG-Push.

   RFC Editor note: please replace the four references to pre-RFC
   normative drafts with the actual assigned RFC numbers.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-18
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-18

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-18


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Dynamic subscription to YANG Events and Datastores over NETCONF
        Authors         : Eric Voit
                          Alexander Clemm
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-19.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document provides a NETCONF binding to the dynamic subscription
   capability of both subscribed notifications and YANG-Push.

   RFC Editor note: please replace the four references to pre-RFC
   normative drafts with the actual assigned RFC numbers.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-19

A diff from the previous version is available at:
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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ipr=3D"pre5378Trust200902"

change made and uploaded as v24

Eric

> From: Benjamin Kaduk, April 29, 2019 2:25 PM
>=20
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 05:58:19PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > Hi Benjamin,
> >
> > I think you are asking why the following boilerplate text wasn't includ=
ed...
> >
> >    This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF
> >    Contributions published or made publicly available before November
> >    10, 2008.  The person(s) controlling the copyright in some of this
> >    material may not have granted the IETF Trust the right to allow
> >    modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process.
> >    Without obtaining an adequate license from the person(s) controlling
> >    the copyright in such materials, this document may not be modified
> >    outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may
> >    not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format
> >    it for publication as an RFC or to translate it into languages other
> >    than English.
>=20
> Exactly so.
>=20
> >
> > This was likely an oversight during the initial author's submission.  I=
f this text
> was included and uploaded as a -24 update, would that cover your concern?
>=20
> Definitely.
> (Note that there's an XML keyword for this; IIRC, <rfc [...]
> ipr=3D"pre5378Trust200902">.)
>=20
> > BTW: the same boilerplate update should also be made to
> > draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notification  and
> > draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif
>=20
> Thanks for spotting those early!
>=20
> -Ben
>=20
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> > > Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-
> > > notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > DISCUSS:
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > >
> > > [putting this out early in the hopes it can be resolved quickly; I'm
> > > just starting to review the document.]
> > >
> > > This document started life as a rfc5277bis, published in July 2008,
> > > before RFC
> > > 5378 (BCP 78) was published in November of 2008.  If we are using
> > > any text from RFC 5277 and did not gain the additional rights
> > > declaration from the authors of that document, this document needs
> > > to use a different boilerplate text (the "pre- 2008" text).  I look
> > > at the sibling document draft-ietf-netfonf-yang-push of this
> > > document, which does use the pre-2008 boilerplate, and am having a ha=
rd
> time understanding why this document does not also have the pre-2008
> boilerplate.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >


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To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: Aanchal Malhotra <aanchal4@bu.edu>, "secdir@ietf.org" <secdir@ietf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.all@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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From nobody Mon Apr 29 19:29:00 2019
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Subject: [netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Common YANG Data Types for Cryptography
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Wang Haiguang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types-06.txt
	Pages           : 58
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines YANG identities, typedefs, the groupings useful
   for cryptographic applications.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-types/

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From nobody Mon Apr 29 19:29:17 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for a Centralized Keystore Mechanism
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-09.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG 1.1 module called "ietf-keystore" that
   enables centralized configuration of asymmetric keys and their
   associated certificates, and notification for when configured
   certificates are about to expire.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
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From nobody Mon Apr 29 19:29:54 2019
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Subject: [netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for Global Trust Anchors
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-trust-anchors-04.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines a YANG 1.1 data model for configuring global
   sets of X.509 certificates and SSH host-keys that can be referenced
   by other data models for trust.  While the SSH host-keys are uniquely
   for the SSH protocol, the X.509 certificates may have multiple uses,
   including authenticating protocol peers and verifying signatures.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   This draft contains many placeholder values that need to be replaced
   with finalized values at the time of publication.  This note
   summarizes all of the substitutions that are needed.  No other RFC
   Editor instructions are specified elsewhere in this document.

   Artwork in this document contains shorthand references to drafts in
   progress.  Please apply the following replacements:

   o  "XXXX" --> the assigned RFC value for this draft

   o  "YYYY" --> the assigned RFC value for draft-ietf-netconf-crypto-
      types

   Artwork in this document contains placeholder values for the date of
   publication of this draft.  Please apply the following replacement:

   o  "2019-04-29" --> the publication date of this draft

   The following Appendix section is to be removed prior to publication:

   o  Appendix A.  Change Log


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From nobody Mon Apr 29 19:33:40 2019
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Subject: [netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-13.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for SSH Clients and SSH Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
                          Liang Xia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server-13.txt
	Pages           : 48
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic SSH client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   SSH server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the SSH protocol.


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Groupings for TLS Clients and TLS Servers
        Authors         : Kent Watsen
                          Gary Wu
                          Liang Xia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-tls-client-server-12.txt
	Pages           : 45
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines three YANG modules: the first defines groupings
   for a generic TLS client, the second defines groupings for a generic
   TLS server, and the third defines common identities and groupings
   used by both the client and the server.  It is intended that these
   groupings will be used by applications using the TLS protocol.


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NETCONF Client and Server Models
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-client-server-12.txt
	Pages           : 64
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines two YANG modules, one module to configure a
   NETCONF client and the other module to configure a NETCONF server.
   Both modules support both the SSH and TLS transport protocols, and
   support both standard NETCONF and NETCONF Call Home connections.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   This draft contains many placeholder values that need to be replaced
   with finalized values at the time of publication.  This note
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   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-keystore

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-tcp-client-server

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-ssh-client-server

   o  I-D.ietf-netconf-tls-client-server

   Artwork in this document contains shorthand references to drafts in
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   Artwork in this document contains placeholder values for the date of
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   o  "2019-04-29" --> the publication date of this draft

   The following Appendix section is to be removed prior to publication:

   o  Appendix B.  Change Log


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Subject: [netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-12.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : RESTCONF Client and Server Models
        Author          : Kent Watsen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-client-server-12.txt
	Pages           : 55
	Date            : 2019-04-29

Abstract:
   This document defines two YANG modules, one module to configure a
   RESTCONF client and the other module to configure a RESTCONF server.
   Both modules support the TLS transport protocol with both standard
   RESTCONF and RESTCONF Call Home connections.

Editorial Note (To be removed by RFC Editor)

   This draft contains many placeholder values that need to be replaced
   with finalized values at the time of publication.  This note
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   Editor instructions are specified elsewhere in this document.

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From nobody Mon Apr 29 20:37:22 2019
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Subject: [netconf] updates to the suite of client/server drafts
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Below are the change logs for each draft just submitted.

Highlights:
  - all issues from the tcp adoption call have been addressed.

Lowlights:
  - some issues from the http adoption call remain.
  - there are some "fixme" comments left in the models.
  - the tree-diagram in Sections 2.1 and 3.1 in both the NC
     and RC drafts are a bit off (GitHub issue reported).

K. // contributor


=3D=3D=3D change logs =3D=3D=3D

crypto-types

   o  Added NACM annotations.

   o  Updated Security Considerations section.

   o  Added 'asymmetric-key-pair-with-cert-grouping' grouping.

   o  Removed text from 'permanently-hidden' enum regarding such keys
      not being backed up or restored.

   o  Updated the boilerplate text in module-level "description"
      statement to match copyeditor convention.

   o  Added an explanation to the 'public-key-grouping' and 'asymmetric-
      key-pair-grouping' statements as for why the nodes are not
      mandatory (e.g., because they may exist only in <operational>.

   o  Added 'must' expressions to the 'public-key-grouping' and
      'asymmetric-key-pair-grouping' statements ensuring sibling nodes
      either all exist or do not all exist.

   o  Added an explanation to the 'permanently-hidden' that the value
      cannot be configured directly by clients and servers MUST fail any
      attempt to do so.

   o  Added 'trust-anchor-certs-grouping' and 'end-entity-certs-
      grouping' (the plural form of existing groupings).

   o  Now states that keys created in <operational> by the *-hidden-key
      actions are bound to the lifetime of the parent 'config true'
      node, and that subsequent invocations of either action results in
      a failure.



keystore

   o  Added a 'description' statement to the 'must' in the /keystore/
      asymmetric-key node explaining that the descendent values may
      exist in <operational> only, and that implementation MUST assert
      that the values are either configured or that they exist in
      <operational>.


   o  Copied above 'must' statement (and description) into the local-or-
      keystore-asymmetric-key-grouping, local-or-keystore-asymmetric-
      key-with-certs-grouping, and local-or-keystore-end-entity-cert-
      with-key-grouping statements.



trust-anchors

   o  Added groupings 'local-or-truststore-certs-grouping' and 'local-
      or-truststore-host-keys-grouping', matching similar definitions in
      the keystore draft.  Note new (and incomplete) "truststore" usage!

   o  Related to above, also added features 'truststore-supported' and
      'local-trust-anchors-supported'.



tcp-client-server

      o addressed issues raised by Michael Scharf, TCPM WG chair and now =
co-author
      o this version resolves the adoption-call comments  (okay to =
resubmit as "ietf" now?)



ssh-client-server

   o  Removed the "demux containers", floating the nacm:default-deny-
      write to each descendent node, and adding a note to model
      designers regarding the potential need to add their own demux
      containers.


   o  In the server model, replaced <client-cert-auth> with <client-
      authentication> and introduced 'local-or-external' choice.



tls-client-server

   o  In server model, made 'client-authentication' a 'presence' node
      indicating that the server supports client authentication.

   o  In the server model, added a 'required-or-optional' choice to
      'client-authentication' to better support protocols such as
      RESTCONF.

   o  In the server model, added a 'local-or-external' choice to
      'client-authentication' to better support consuming data models
      that prefer to keep client auth with client definitions than in a
      model principally concerned with the "transport".

   o  In both models, removed the "demux containers", floating the
      nacm:default-deny-write to each descendent node, and adding a note
      to model designers regarding the potential need to add their own
      demux containers.



http-client-server

   o number of "improvements" (i hope)
   o not reviewed by HTTP WG chairs yet
   o likely needs finessing before asking them to review it again



netconf-client-server

   o  Removed the "Design Considerations" section.

   o  Removed the 'must' statement limiting keepalives in periodic
      connections.

   o  Updated models and examples to reflect removal of the "demux"
      containers in the imported models.

   o  Updated the "periodic-connnection" description statements to be
      more like the RESTCONF draft, especially where it described
      dropping the underlying TCP connection.

   o  Updated text to better reference where certain examples come from
      (e.g., which Section in which draft).

   o  In the server model, commented out the "must 'pinned-ca-certs or
      pinned-client-certs'" statement to reflect change made in the TLS
      draft whereby the trust anchors MAY be defined externally.

   o  Replaced the 'listen', 'initiate', and 'call-home' features with
      boolean expressions.



restconf-client-server

   o  Removed the 'must' statement limiting keepalives in periodic
      connections.

   o  Updated models and examples to reflect removal of the "demux"
      containers in the imported models.

   o  Updated the "periodic-connnection" description statements to
      better describe behavior when connections are not closed
      gracefully.

   o  Updated text to better reference where certain examples come from
      (e.g., which Section in which draft).

   o  In the server model, commented out the "must 'pinned-ca-certs or
      pinned-client-certs'" statement to reflect change made in the TLS
      draft whereby the trust anchors MAY be defined externally.

   o  Replaced the 'listen', 'initiate', and 'call-home' features with
      boolean expressions.






From nobody Mon Apr 29 21:54:01 2019
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Subject: [netconf] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-17
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Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The
Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as
they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special
request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing
ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would
be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call
comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by
updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-17
Reviewer: Dhruv Dhody
Review Date: 2019-04-29
IETF LC End Date: 2019-04-12
Intended Status: Standards Track

Summary:
--------
I have some minor concerns about this document that I think should be resolved
before publication.

Comments:
---------
This document provides a binding for events streamed over the NETCONF for
dynamic subscriptions. This is a companion document to draft-ietf-netconf-
subscribed-notifications and this capability for RESTCONF is defined in
draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif.

The document is overall well written, it makes an assumption that the reader
is well versed in this area and thus sparse in providing details in the
Introduction section. The appendix provides good examples.

I don't see any Routing Yang model specific issue.

Major Issues:
-------------
Note - An IETF process issue, but worth handling right away.

Section 11 says -

11.  Notes to the RFC Editor

   This section can be removed by the RFC editor after the requests have
   been performed.

It further says -

   RFC 6241 needs to be updated based on the needs of this draft.
   RFC-6241 section 1.2 bullet "(2)" targets RFC-5277 (actually it
   identifies RFC 5717, but that was an error fixed after RFC
   publication).  Anyway the current phrasing in RFC-5277 says that a
   notification message can only be sent after a successful "create-
   subscription".  Therefore the reference text must be modified to also
   allow notification messages be sent after a successful "establish-
   subscription".  Proposed text for bullet (2) of RFC-6241 would be:

     (2)  The Messages layer provides a simple, transport-independent
          framing mechanism for encoding RPCs and notifications.
          Section 4 documents the RPC messages, [RFC5277] documents
          Notifications sent as a result of a <create-subscription> RPC,
          and [RFC xxxx] documents Notifications sent as a result of
          an <establish-subscription> RPC.

      (where xxxx is replaced with this RFC number)

I am not sure if this is correct. I don't think RFC editor can do the action
you are asking them to do on their own. They would need an errata (which is
not correct here) or another document that updates RFC 6241. In my view this
document should just update RFC 6241 (and mark that in this document's
header) and do necessary text changes to reflect that.

Minor Issues:
-------------
(1) Abstract & Introduction, It is not clear what does the 'binding' mean and
who are the parties to this binding? If this is the document that mentions
'binding' first, so please add some more clarifying text.

(2) Section 3, since you use MUST in the error handling, isn't it better to
use normative in below sentence as well -
OLD:
                                                       However a single
   NETCONF transport session cannot support both this specification and
   a subscription established by [RFC5277]'s "create-subscription" RPC.
NEW:
                                                       However a single
   NETCONF transport session MUST NOT support both this specification and
   a subscription established by [RFC5277]'s "create-subscription" RPC.


(3) Section 6, You have -

   And per [RFC5277]'s "eventTime" object definition, the
   "eventTime" MUST be populated with the event occurrence time.

Is this a new requirement, or just re-stating RFC5277? RFC5277 says -

      eventTime

         The time the event was generated by the event source.  This
         parameter is of type dateTime and compliant to [RFC3339].
         Implementations must support time zones.

      Also contains notification-specific tagged content, if any.  With
      the exception of <eventTime>, the content of the notification is
      beyond the scope of this document.

Maybe remove MUST? If you are trying to refine the text from RFC5277, then
please re-word.


Nits:
-----
(1) Abstract

   RFC Editor note: please replace the four references to pre-RFC
   normative drafts with the actual assigned RFC numbers.

I see two drafts in the reference section. Why four?
Also, since those two are normative references, these would be published as a
cluster as a part of normal RFC editor processing right?

(2) Regarding NETCONF, the RFC editor says [1] -

NETCONF    - Network Configuration Protocol (NETCONF)
               [Not typically expanded in titles, but expand in abstract]

Please expand.

(3) s/[I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications]
     /[I-D.ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications]

Just so that you have the same style of draft reference in the document. I get
that it would be replaced with a RFC number anyways :)

[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt

Thanks!
Dhruv


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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi,=0A=
=0A=
I think it should be avoided if possible to add the pre-5378=0A=
boilerplate, it is better to get the rights. Especially in this=0A=
situation where there has been many version published stating that the=0A=
rights have been had. Is there a problem of getting the rights?=0A=
=0A=
Cheers=0A=
=0A=
Magnus=0A=
=0A=
On 2019-04-29 21:31, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:=0A=
> ipr=3D"pre5378Trust200902"=0A=
>=0A=
> change made and uploaded as v24=0A=
>=0A=
> Eric=0A=
>=0A=
>> From: Benjamin Kaduk, April 29, 2019 2:25 PM=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 05:58:19PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:=0A=
>>> Hi Benjamin,=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> I think you are asking why the following boilerplate text wasn't includ=
ed...=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>    This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF=0A=
>>>    Contributions published or made publicly available before November=
=0A=
>>>    10, 2008.  The person(s) controlling the copyright in some of this=
=0A=
>>>    material may not have granted the IETF Trust the right to allow=0A=
>>>    modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process.=
=0A=
>>>    Without obtaining an adequate license from the person(s) controlling=
=0A=
>>>    the copyright in such materials, this document may not be modified=
=0A=
>>>    outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may=
=0A=
>>>    not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format=
=0A=
>>>    it for publication as an RFC or to translate it into languages other=
=0A=
>>>    than English.=0A=
>> Exactly so.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>> This was likely an oversight during the initial author's submission.  I=
f this text=0A=
>> was included and uploaded as a -24 update, would that cover your concern=
?=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Definitely.=0A=
>> (Note that there's an XML keyword for this; IIRC, <rfc [...]=0A=
>> ipr=3D"pre5378Trust200902">.)=0A=
>>=0A=
>>> BTW: the same boilerplate update should also be made to=0A=
>>> draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notification  and=0A=
>>> draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif=0A=
>> Thanks for spotting those early!=0A=
>>=0A=
>> -Ben=0A=
>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>> -----Original Message-----=0A=
>>>> From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>=0A=
>>>> Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-=0A=
>>>> notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
=0A=
>>>> --=0A=
>>>> DISCUSS:=0A=
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
=0A=
>>>> --=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> [putting this out early in the hopes it can be resolved quickly; I'm=
=0A=
>>>> just starting to review the document.]=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> This document started life as a rfc5277bis, published in July 2008,=0A=
>>>> before RFC=0A=
>>>> 5378 (BCP 78) was published in November of 2008.  If we are using=0A=
>>>> any text from RFC 5277 and did not gain the additional rights=0A=
>>>> declaration from the authors of that document, this document needs=0A=
>>>> to use a different boilerplate text (the "pre- 2008" text).  I look=0A=
>>>> at the sibling document draft-ietf-netfonf-yang-push of this=0A=
>>>> document, which does use the pre-2008 boilerplate, and am having a har=
d=0A=
>> time understanding why this document does not also have the pre-2008=0A=
>> boilerplate.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
-- =0A=
=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
=0A=


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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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Correct, as I didn=E2=80=99t think there was consensus yet.  Perhaps there i=
s rough-consensus, and it may be that the only way to gauge that is to try a=
nd see how much push back there is.

Okay, so how about this, based on this thread, there appears to be support t=
o add a flag to control if a key should be =E2=80=9Cpermanently hidden=E2=80=
=9D or not, in which case configuration is created.

This change will be in the next update, in about a week=E2=80=99s time, if n=
o objections are raised.

Kent // contributor


> On Apr 30, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs <balazs.kovacs@ericss=
on.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Kent,
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t see the your proposal below addressed in latest update  (k=
eystore-09). Was it missed?
> =20
> My recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key"
> (renamed to just "generate/install-key") actions to have a flag indicating=
 if
> the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a TPM) or not, in=

> which case configuration is created, same as if the client had used <edit-=

> config>, but without needing to touch the key.
>=20
>=20
> I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and I
> think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case the
> requested action cannot be performed.
> =20
> Br,
> Balazs

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div>Correct, as I didn=E2=80=99t=
 think there was consensus yet. &nbsp;Perhaps there is rough-consensus, and i=
t may be that the only way to gauge that is to try and see how much push bac=
k there is.<div><br></div><div>Okay, so how about this, based on this thread=
, there appears to be support to add a flag to control if a key should be =E2=
=80=9Cpermanently hidden=E2=80=9D or not, in which case configuration is cre=
ated.</div><div><br></div><div>This change will be in the next update, in ab=
out a week=E2=80=99s time, if no objections are raised.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Kent // contributor<br><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
On Apr 30, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:b=
alazs.kovacs@ericsson.com">balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Kent,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t see the your proposal below addressed=
 in latest update &nbsp;(keystore-09). Was it missed?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">My recommendation is to m=
odify the "generate/install-hidden-key"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in">(renamed to just "generat=
e/install-key") actions to have a flag indicating if<br>
the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a TPM) or not, in<b=
r>
which case configuration is created, same as if the client had used &lt;edit=
-<br>
config&gt;, but without needing to touch the key.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><br>
I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and I<br>
think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case the<br>
requested action cannot be performed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Br,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Balazs<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>


</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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The following errata report has been verified for RFC8040,
"RESTCONF Protocol". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5504

--------------------------------------
Status: Verified
Type: Editorial

Reported by: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date Reported: 2018-09-22
Verified by: Ignas Bagdonas (IESG)

Section: B.3.8

Original Text
-------------
      GET /mystreams/NETCONF?start-time=2014-10-25T10%3A02%3A00Z\
         &stop-time=2014-10-25T12%3A31%3A00Z

Corrected Text
--------------
      GET /streams/NETCONF?start-time=2014-10-25T10%3A02%3A00Z\
         &stop-time=2014-10-25T12%3A31%3A00Z

Notes
-----
The node 'mystreams' is incorrect.

--------------------------------------
RFC8040 (draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-18)
--------------------------------------
Title               : RESTCONF Protocol
Publication Date    : January 2017
Author(s)           : A. Bierman, M. Bjorklund, K. Watsen
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : Network Configuration
Area                : Operations and Management
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A small comment/question mostly regarding section 3.4:
I wondering what happens if the system crashes or is in a state where not even
a notification can be sent anymore...? Is the assumption that a crash could be
detected because the transport connection  goes away? However, that would mean
that there is requirement that the transport must be connection-oriented and
maybe also support some kind of keep-alive mechanism. Given this document tries
to be transport-agnostic (as it relies on
I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications), I don't think that is a safe
assumption and should at least be further discussed. My understanding was that
I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications assumes an active connection
for dynamic subscriptions, but I guess this does not have to be the case for a
configured subscription...?

Also there seems to be an implicit assumption that the chosen transport is
reliable in order for the system to work as expected. If that is the case, I
think that it could be good to spelled that out in the document as a
requirement as well. I guess all transports available today for YANG
(NETCONF/RETSCONF) are reliable but that might not be the case in future.



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To: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netconf] draft-ietf-netconf-keystore-09.txt
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Hi Kent,

I have just noticed a issue with the leaf 'keystore-reference' used=20
in the grouping 'local-or-keystore-end-entity-cert-with-key-grouping'=20
in ietf-keystore.

This leafref uses the typedef 'asymmetric-key-certificate-ref', but,=20
unless I am missing something, this alone will not work, because a=20
predicate for the list 'asymmetric-key' is missing.=20

I would expect something like the following:

case keystore {
  if-feature "keystore-supported";
  leaf asymmetric-key-name {
    type ks:asymmetric-key-ref;
      description
        "A reference to an asymmetric key that exists in
         the keystore. ";=20
  }
  leaf certificate-name {
    type leafref {
      path=20
        "/ks:keystore"
        + "/ks:asymmetric-keys"
        + "/ks:asymmetric-key"
        + "[ks:name=3Dcurrent()/../"=20
        + "asymmetric-key-name]"=20
        + "/ks:certificates"=20
        + "/ks:certificate/ks:name";
    }
    description
     "A reference to a specific certificate associated=20
      with the given private key, stored in the keystore.";  =20
  }
}

Regards
Nick


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On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 02:49:30PM +0200, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:
> >=20
> > Correct, as I didn=E2=80=99t think there was consensus yet.  Perhaps =
there is
> > rough-consensus, and it may be that the only way to gauge that is to
> > try and see how much push back there is.
> >=20
> > Okay, so how about this, based on this thread, there appears to be
> > support to add a flag to control if a key should be =E2=80=9Cpermanen=
tly
> > hidden=E2=80=9D or not, in which case configuration is created.
>=20
> I (still) object to this.  Actions shouldn't create config.  We
> already have generic protcol operations to do this.  We go from a
> document-oriented configuration model towards a command-oriented
> model.  Not good.  In RESTCONF, the generic methods support things
> like ETags, which I suspect you don't want to replicate in this
> action?   Will the action support all error-options of edit-config,
> like rollback-on-error?
>

Martin,

do you have any proposal how to support the requirement to generate a
key on the device that is workable with a document-oriented
configuration model? Do you propose that the action/rpc returns the
public key information as result data that then needs to be written
back to the server and somehow matched to the key that is cached on
the device? Perhaps you have other ideas I can't think of?

I think I would be happy to not have this special hack but then we
need a workable alternative. Key generation on devices is something
that is being used - and may be even more used in the future the more
we get special hardware support for storing keys.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Hello Mirja,=20
Thank you for your review!
Response inline, <ALEX>
--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 7:46 AM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push@ietf.org; Kent Watsen =
<kent+ietf@watsen.net>; netconf-chairs@ietf.org; kent+ietf@watsen.net; =
netconf@ietf.org
Subject: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's No Objection on =
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: (with COMMENT)

Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all =
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this =
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A small comment/question mostly regarding section 3.4:
I wondering what happens if the system crashes or is in a state where =
not even a notification can be sent anymore...? Is the assumption that a =
crash could be detected because the transport connection  goes away? =
However, that would mean that there is requirement that the transport =
must be connection-oriented and maybe also support some kind of =
keep-alive mechanism. Given this document tries to be transport-agnostic =
(as it relies on I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications), I =
don't think that is a safe assumption and should at least be further =
discussed. My understanding was that =
I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications assumes an active =
connection for dynamic subscriptions, but I guess this does not have to =
be the case for a configured subscription...?

Also there seems to be an implicit assumption that the chosen transport =
is reliable in order for the system to work as expected. If that is the =
case, I think that it could be good to spelled that out in the document =
as a requirement as well. I guess all transports available today for =
YANG
(NETCONF/RETSCONF) are reliable but that might not be the case in =
future.

<ALEX>=20
Your comment is implied by the fact that the solution builds on =
subscribed-notifications, which spells this out very clearly (e.g. in =
section 1.3 there).  To make it clearer, we can add the following text =
to address your concern:
"The solution builds on <xref =
target=3D""I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications"/>.  As =
defined there, any loss of underlying transport connection will be =
detected and result in subscription termination (in case of dynamic =
subscriptions) or suspension (in case of configured subscriptions), =
ensuring that situations will not occur in which the loss of update =
notifications would go unnoticed."
</ALEX>


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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> From: Magnus Westerlund, April 30, 2019 4:32 AM
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I think it should be avoided if possible to add the pre-5378 boilerplate,=
 it is better
> to get the rights. Especially in this situation where there has been many=
 version
> published stating that the rights have been had. Is there a problem of ge=
tting the
> rights?

Hi Magnus,

Here is the current status...

There are no full sentences from RFC-5277 used in this document.  However t=
here are a few sentence fragments in the terminology, as well as quite a fe=
w concepts adopted based on RFC5277.  On the basis of that Benjamin's DISCU=
SS however, it felt like we should err on the side of caution by adding his=
 suggestion. =20

Along with this, at the end of 2016 the original authors of RFC-5277 (Sharo=
n & Hector) stated they no longer needed to be on this draft.  I haven't be=
en in contact with them since.  So without a relationship here, it seemed l=
ike the including the "pre5378Trust200902" text was again erring on the sid=
e of caution.

Eric

> Cheers
>=20
> Magnus
>=20
> On 2019-04-29 21:31, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > ipr=3D"pre5378Trust200902"
> >
> > change made and uploaded as v24
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >> From: Benjamin Kaduk, April 29, 2019 2:25 PM
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 05:58:19PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> >>> Hi Benjamin,
> >>>
> >>> I think you are asking why the following boilerplate text wasn't incl=
uded...
> >>>
> >>>    This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF
> >>>    Contributions published or made publicly available before November
> >>>    10, 2008.  The person(s) controlling the copyright in some of this
> >>>    material may not have granted the IETF Trust the right to allow
> >>>    modifications of such material outside the IETF Standards Process.
> >>>    Without obtaining an adequate license from the person(s) controlli=
ng
> >>>    the copyright in such materials, this document may not be modified
> >>>    outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may
> >>>    not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to forma=
t
> >>>    it for publication as an RFC or to translate it into languages oth=
er
> >>>    than English.
> >> Exactly so.
> >>
> >>> This was likely an oversight during the initial author's submission.
> >>> If this text
> >> was included and uploaded as a -24 update, would that cover your conce=
rn?
> >>
> >> Definitely.
> >> (Note that there's an XML keyword for this; IIRC, <rfc [...]
> >> ipr=3D"pre5378Trust200902">.)
> >>
> >>> BTW: the same boilerplate update should also be made to
> >>> draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notification  and
> >>> draft-ietf-netconf-restconf-notif
> >> Thanks for spotting those early!
> >>
> >> -Ben
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-
> >>>> notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
> >>>>
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> -
> >>>> --
> >>>> DISCUSS:
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> -
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> [putting this out early in the hopes it can be resolved quickly;
> >>>> I'm just starting to review the document.]
> >>>>
> >>>> This document started life as a rfc5277bis, published in July 2008,
> >>>> before RFC
> >>>> 5378 (BCP 78) was published in November of 2008.  If we are using
> >>>> any text from RFC 5277 and did not gain the additional rights
> >>>> declaration from the authors of that document, this document needs
> >>>> to use a different boilerplate text (the "pre- 2008" text).  I look
> >>>> at the sibling document draft-ietf-netfonf-yang-push of this
> >>>> document, which does use the pre-2008 boilerplate, and am having a
> >>>> hard
> >> time understanding why this document does not also have the pre-2008
> >> boilerplate.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >
>=20
> --
>=20
> Magnus Westerlund
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Tue Apr 30 09:25:47 2019
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:25:27 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Cc: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 04:21:31PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > From: Magnus Westerlund, April 30, 2019 4:32 AM
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I think it should be avoided if possible to add the pre-5378 boilerplate, it is better
> > to get the rights. Especially in this situation where there has been many version
> > published stating that the rights have been had. Is there a problem of getting the
> > rights?
> 
> Hi Magnus,
> 
> Here is the current status...
> 
> There are no full sentences from RFC-5277 used in this document.  However there are a few sentence fragments in the terminology, as well as quite a few concepts adopted based on RFC5277.  On the basis of that Benjamin's DISCUSS however, it felt like we should err on the side of caution by adding his suggestion.  
> 
> Along with this, at the end of 2016 the original authors of RFC-5277 (Sharon & Hector) stated they no longer needed to be on this draft.  I haven't been in contact with them since.  So without a relationship here, it seemed like the including the "pre5378Trust200902" text was again erring on the side of caution.

To be clear, I don't have any favored resolution I'm trying to push, here
(though Magnus' point is fairly compelling) -- I was just noting the
cross-document disparity and, in the absence of a note explaining it in the
shepherd writeup(s), wondering how to bring the documents in line with each
other.  If we think that the pre-5378 boilerplate is not actually needed
here and have explictly thought about the question, I am happy to accept
that as well.

-Ben


From nobody Tue Apr 30 09:32:38 2019
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From: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Subject: Re: [netconf]  =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi Alex,

Thanks for double-checking! I guess that should be fine. However, =
stating this explicitly in the draft, can hurt. Your take!

Mirja



> On 30. Apr 2019, at 18:20, Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Mirja,=20
> Thank you for your review!
> Response inline, <ALEX>
> --- Alex
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>=20
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 7:46 AM
> To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push@ietf.org; Kent Watsen =
<kent+ietf@watsen.net>; netconf-chairs@ietf.org; kent+ietf@watsen.net; =
netconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's No Objection on =
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: (with COMMENT)
>=20
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all =
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this =
introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
> Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> A small comment/question mostly regarding section 3.4:
> I wondering what happens if the system crashes or is in a state where =
not even a notification can be sent anymore...? Is the assumption that a =
crash could be detected because the transport connection  goes away? =
However, that would mean that there is requirement that the transport =
must be connection-oriented and maybe also support some kind of =
keep-alive mechanism. Given this document tries to be transport-agnostic =
(as it relies on I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications), I =
don't think that is a safe assumption and should at least be further =
discussed. My understanding was that =
I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications assumes an active =
connection for dynamic subscriptions, but I guess this does not have to =
be the case for a configured subscription...?
>=20
> Also there seems to be an implicit assumption that the chosen =
transport is reliable in order for the system to work as expected. If =
that is the case, I think that it could be good to spelled that out in =
the document as a requirement as well. I guess all transports available =
today for YANG
> (NETCONF/RETSCONF) are reliable but that might not be the case in =
future.
>=20
> <ALEX>=20
> Your comment is implied by the fact that the solution builds on =
subscribed-notifications, which spells this out very clearly (e.g. in =
section 1.3 there).  To make it clearer, we can add the following text =
to address your concern:
> "The solution builds on <xref =
target=3D""I-D.draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications"/>.  As =
defined there, any loss of underlying transport connection will be =
detected and result in subscription termination (in case of dynamic =
subscriptions) or suspension (in case of configured subscriptions), =
ensuring that situations will not occur in which the loss of update =
notifications would go unnoticed."
> </ALEX>
>=20
>=20


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From: "Alexander Clemm" <ludwig@clemm.org>
To: "'Eric Vyncke \(evyncke\)'" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "'The IESG'" <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: <netconf@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push@ietf.org>, <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf]  =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_No_Objection_on_draft-i?= =?utf-8?q?etf-netconf-yang-push-22=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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Hello Eric,

Thank you for your review!  Replies inline, <ALEX>

--- Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Vyncke (evyncke) <evyncke@cisco.com>=20
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 6:21 AM
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: netconf@ietf.org; draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push@ietf.org; =
kent+ietf@watsen.net; netconf-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: =C3=89ric Vyncke's No Objection on =
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: (with COMMENT)

Please ignore my comment C3, my bad...

-=C3=A9ric

=EF=BB=BFOn 29/04/2019, 15:12, "iesg on behalf of =C3=89ric Vyncke via =
Datatracker" <iesg-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of noreply@ietf.org> =
wrote:

    =C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
    draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-22: No Objection
   =20
    When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all
    email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
    introductory paragraph, however.)
   =20
   =20
    Please refer to =
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
    for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
   =20
   =20
    The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/
   =20
   =20
   =20
    =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    COMMENT:
    =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
   =20
    Getting a streaming telemetry for changes in datastore appears quite =
useful.
   =20
    Please note that I did not review in depth after the section 4.
   =20
    Comments
    --------
   =20
    C1) Out of curiosity, it is surprising for a netconf wg document to =
have 7
    errors indicated by the YANG validator. Are they real errors or is =
the `pyang`
    validator incorrect or missing references?

<ALEX> There is a bug in the validator, which has been encountered for a =
while and which Eric can explain. =20
</ALEX>
   =20
    C2) 7 authors... the limit is usually 5 authors max. Can you =
justify?
<ALEX> All of the authors have made substantial contributions to the =
document over the span of several years.  We do believe this is =
justified and can provide further explanation of each individual =
author's contributions if needed. =20
</ALEX>   =20

    C3) section 2. It should be RFC 8174 without citing RFC 2119.
   =20
    C4) section 3.7, why not forcing a resynch (and a patch-id of 0) =
rather than
    simply rolling explicitly the patch-id to 0. The latter seems to me =
as prone to
    synchronization errors.
   =20
<ALEX> We don't believe synchronization errors due to this scenario are =
an issue.  Note that the rolling back to 0 occurs only once every =
4294967295 updates, if no resynch ever occurred prior.  If an =
application were ever concerned with loss of synchronization, it could =
also simply request one manually (as opposed to being forced to, which =
would appear more disruptive than the proposed solution). =20
</ALEX>

    Nits
    ----
   =20
    N1) unsure why all Cisco Systems authors are not grouped together
   =20
<ALEX> Over the course of the document, some author affiliations have =
changed
</ALEX>
    N2) "Xpath": should be described (or having a reference) before =
first use in
    section 3.6
   =20
<ALEX> Added the following brief explanation at the first occurrence:  =
"(XPath is a query language for selecting nodes in an XML document.) "=20
</ALEX>
    N3) a couple of "yang" in lowercase while I believe "YANG" is always =
written in
    uppercase
<ALEX> Updated many of those, except where used e.g. in file names. =
</ALEX>
   =20
   =20



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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23: (with DISCUSS)
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> From: Benjamin Kaduk, April 30, 2019 12:25 PM
>=20
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 04:21:31PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> > > From: Magnus Westerlund, April 30, 2019 4:32 AM
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I think it should be avoided if possible to add the pre-5378
> > > boilerplate, it is better to get the rights. Especially in this
> > > situation where there has been many version published stating that
> > > the rights have been had. Is there a problem of getting the rights?
> >
> > Hi Magnus,
> >
> > Here is the current status...
> >
> > There are no full sentences from RFC-5277 used in this document.  Howev=
er
> there are a few sentence fragments in the terminology, as well as quite a=
 few
> concepts adopted based on RFC5277.  On the basis of that Benjamin's DISCU=
SS
> however, it felt like we should err on the side of caution by adding his
> suggestion.
> >
> > Along with this, at the end of 2016 the original authors of RFC-5277 (S=
haron &
> Hector) stated they no longer needed to be on this draft.  I haven't been=
 in
> contact with them since.  So without a relationship here, it seemed like =
the
> including the "pre5378Trust200902" text was again erring on the side of c=
aution.
>=20
> To be clear, I don't have any favored resolution I'm trying to push, here=
 (though
> Magnus' point is fairly compelling) -- I was just noting the cross-docume=
nt
> disparity and, in the absence of a note explaining it in the shepherd wri=
teup(s),
> wondering how to bring the documents in line with each other.  If we thin=
k that
> the pre-5378 boilerplate is not actually needed here and have explictly t=
hought
> about the question, I am happy to accept that as well.

Is there a process in the IETF to determine copyright coverage based on a c=
ouple sentence fragments and concept reuse?  I don't feel capable of provid=
ing a legal opinion here.  That is why I l felt converging on the narrower =
"pre5378Trust200902" boilerplate was safer.

Eric
=20
> -Ben


From nobody Tue Apr 30 09:39:47 2019
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Subject: [netconf] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-23.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Network Configuration WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Subscription to YANG Datastores
        Authors         : Alexander Clemm
                          Eric Voit
                          Alberto Gonzalez Prieto
                          Ambika Prasad Tripathy
                          Einar Nilsen-Nygaard
                          Andy Bierman
                          Balazs Lengyel
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-23.txt
	Pages           : 58
	Date            : 2019-04-30

Abstract:
   Via the mechanism described in this document, subscriber applications
   may request a continuous, customized stream of updates from a YANG
   datastore.  Providing such visibility into updates enables new
   capabilities based on the remote mirroring and monitoring of
   configuration and operational state.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-23
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-23

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-23


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "'The IESG'" <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push@ietf.org>, "kent+ietf@watsen.net" <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:49:41 +0000
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From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" <rrahman@cisco.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Alexander Clemm <ludwig@clemm.org>,  "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, "'The IESG'" <iesg@ietf.org>
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>, "kent+ietf@watsen.net" <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
CC: "rtg-dir@ietf.org" <rtg-dir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications.all@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>, Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.dhody@huawei.com>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RtgDir review: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-17
Thread-Index: AQHU/xC8WbWTXSPvekeZmlnK7/xOtqZU7OSw
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 17:44:19 +0000
Message-ID: <7395d7e5db4b48e1ba582c9c48c29913@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
References: <CAB75xn4HiqYqeWu2tiOsfDwU4ePc+-6ym+4EpowqZ-YMgkRRMA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications-17
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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> I (still) object to this.  Actions shouldn't create config.  We
> already have generic protcol operations to do this.  We go from a
> document-oriented configuration model towards a command-oriented
> model.  Not good.  In RESTCONF, the generic methods support things
> like ETags, which I suspect you don't want to replicate in this
> action?   Will the action support all error-options of edit-config,
> like rollback-on-error?

The specifics for how this could work would need to be defined.  Given =
that it is a special case, I think that we could constrain it heavily =
and target simple solution.   Depending how much text is required to =
describe it, it might be good to define an extension statement that =
could be placed on the actions.  While an extension statement may seem =
like it opens the gates for general use, we could further define the =
extension statement as being something that MUST NOT be used when =
general purpose operations are suitable such that, at least with the =
IETF, it could only be used in extraordinary circumstances.


> Some comments on the new text:
>=20
> In action generate-hidden-key, it should be stated that the public-key
> will be populated, and that the private-key will exist but report
> 'permanently-hidden'.

Okay, but before making the edit, see comment below about lifetimes...



> In action install-hidden-key, shouldn't both public-key and
> private-key be mandatory?  Also state that the private-key will report
> 'permanently-hidden'.

Indeed, fixed.


> In leaf private-key, the type binary part of the union doesn't have a
> description, and the description for the leaf itself says:
>=20
>       A binary that contains the value of the private key.
>=20
> which is not quite correct.
>=20
> I think we should state that the enum 'permanently-hidden' is only
> reported in operational state.

The 'type' statement doesn't have 'description' as a substatement,=20
but, point taken, two updates:

In leaf private-key:
  OLD:
      A binary that contains the value of the private key.
  NEW:
      Either a binary that contains the value of the private key or, in=20=

      the case of a hidden key, the value 'permanently-hidden'.

In enum permanently-hidden:
  OLD:
       The private key is inaccessible due to being protected by the
       system (e.g., a cryptographic hardware module).
  NEW:
       The private key is inaccessible due to being protected by the
       system (e.g., a cryptographic hardware module).  Since hidden
       keys are only ever reported in <operational>, the value
       'permanently-hidden' never appears in <intended>.


> The new descriptions say:
>=20
>            [...] present only in
>            <operational> and bound to the lifetime of the parent
>            'config true' node.
>=20
> Aren't all nodes bound to the lifetime of their parent?
> The action is invoked in a node that exists in <operational> and it
> creates a key.  What does the statement tell me?

This seems like something new (and maybe wrong) and hence needs to be =
explained.  This seems new because we are saying that the lifetime of an =
operational value is tied to the lifetime of a configured value.  =
Normally we talk about how operational values exist on their own and =
that, if one wants to override/extend them (e.g., associate a =
certificate to the private key created by the manufacturer), =
configuration would overlay the operational values.  By extension, if =
the configuration is removed, the operational values go back to their =
original state (i.e., existing on their own).   Here we're saying that, =
if the configuration (for the parent node) is removed, the operational =
values are removed as well.

Note that this statement was added because Juergen asked about how =
hidden keys could be removed/replaced.   We iterated towards not wanting =
to support the "replace" case, and this seemed like an easy way to =
handle the "remove" case.  Another way to do this would be via another =
action such as 'remove-hidden-key'.   What do you think would be best?


Kent // contributor


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I (still) object to this. &nbsp;Actions shouldn't create =
config. &nbsp;We</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">already have =
generic protcol operations to do this. &nbsp;We go from a<br =
class=3D"">document-oriented configuration model towards a =
command-oriented<br class=3D"">model. &nbsp;Not good. &nbsp;In RESTCONF, =
the generic methods support things<br class=3D"">like ETags, which I =
suspect you don't want to replicate in this<br class=3D"">action? =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Will the action support all error-options of edit-config,<br =
class=3D"">like rollback-on-error?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
specifics for how this could work would need to be defined. &nbsp;Given =
that it is a special case, I think that we could constrain it heavily =
and target simple solution. &nbsp; Depending how much text is required =
to describe it, it might be good to define an extension statement that =
could be placed on the actions. &nbsp;While an extension statement may =
seem like it opens the gates for general use, we could further define =
the extension statement as being something that MUST NOT be used when =
general purpose operations are suitable such that, at least with the =
IETF, it could only be used in extraordinary =
circumstances.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Some comments =
on the new text:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In action =
generate-hidden-key, it should be stated that the public-key<br =
class=3D"">will be populated, and that the private-key will exist but =
report<br class=3D"">'permanently-hidden'.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Okay, but =
before making the edit, see comment below about lifetimes...<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">In action install-hidden-key, shouldn't both public-key =
and<br class=3D"">private-key be mandatory? &nbsp;Also state that the =
private-key will report<br class=3D"">'permanently-hidden'.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Indeed, =
fixed.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">In leaf =
private-key, the type binary part of the union doesn't have a<br =
class=3D"">description, and the description for the leaf itself says:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A binary =
that contains the value of the private key.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">which is not quite correct.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I =
think we should state that the enum 'permanently-hidden' is only<br =
class=3D"">reported in operational state.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
'type' statement doesn't have 'description' as a =
substatement,&nbsp;</div><div>but, point taken, two =
updates:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In&nbsp;leaf&nbsp;private-key:</div><div>&nbsp; =
OLD:</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; A binary that contains the value of =
the private key.</div><div>&nbsp; NEW:</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Either a binary that contains the value of the private&nbsp;key or, =
in&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the case of a hidden key, the =
value&nbsp;'permanently-hidden'.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In =
enum&nbsp;permanently-hidden:</div><div>&nbsp; OLD:</div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The private key is inaccessible due to =
being&nbsp;protected by the</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;system =
(e.g., a cryptographic&nbsp;hardware module).<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
NEW:</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The private key is =
inaccessible due to being&nbsp;protected by the</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;system (e.g., a cryptographic&nbsp;hardware module). =
&nbsp;Since hidden</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;keys are only =
ever reported in &lt;operational&gt;, the value</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;'permanently-hidden' never appears in =
&lt;intended&gt;.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">The new descriptions say:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[...] =
present only in<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;oper=
ational&gt; and bound to the lifetime of the parent<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;'config =
true' node.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Aren't all nodes bound to the =
lifetime of their parent?<br class=3D"">The action is invoked in a node =
that exists in &lt;operational&gt; and it<br class=3D"">creates a key. =
&nbsp;What does the statement tell me?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>This seems =
like something new (and maybe wrong) and hence needs to be explained. =
&nbsp;This seems new because we are saying that the lifetime of an =
operational value is tied to the lifetime of a configured value. =
&nbsp;Normally we talk about how operational values exist on their own =
and that, if one wants to override/extend them (e.g., associate a =
certificate to the private key created by the manufacturer), =
configuration would overlay the operational values. &nbsp;By extension, =
if the configuration is removed, the operational values go back to their =
original state (i.e., existing on their own). &nbsp; Here we're saying =
that, if the configuration (for the parent node) is removed, the =
operational values are removed as well.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Note that this statement was added because Juergen =
asked about how hidden keys could be removed/replaced. &nbsp; We =
iterated towards not wanting to support the "replace" case, and this =
seemed like an easy way to handle the "remove" case. &nbsp;Another way =
to do this would be via another action such as 'remove-hidden-key'. =
&nbsp; What do you think would be best?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Kent // =
contributor</div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:07:26 -0700
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
Cc: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, Netconf <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] ietf crypto types - permanently hidden
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On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 5:49 AM Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:

> Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:
> >
> > Correct, as I didn=E2=80=99t think there was consensus yet.  Perhaps th=
ere is
> > rough-consensus, and it may be that the only way to gauge that is to
> > try and see how much push back there is.
> >
> > Okay, so how about this, based on this thread, there appears to be
> > support to add a flag to control if a key should be =E2=80=9Cpermanentl=
y
> > hidden=E2=80=9D or not, in which case configuration is created.
>
> I (still) object to this.  Actions shouldn't create config.  We
> already have generic protcol operations to do this.  We go from a
> document-oriented configuration model towards a command-oriented
> model.  Not good.  In RESTCONF, the generic methods support things
> like ETags, which I suspect you don't want to replicate in this
> action?   Will the action support all error-options of edit-config,
> like rollback-on-error?
>
>
>

Strongly agree with Martin.
This issue of "server-generated config" has been around from the start.
NMDA was supposed to solve it. (It didn't).
There seems to be a need for standardized mechanisms to tell the
server how to magically instantiate data in <intended> that does not appear
in <running>.

The solution should be consistent and not ad-hoc.
This is a similar problem to config templates (which also lack any standard
solution).


Andy

Some comments on the new text:
>
> In action generate-hidden-key, it should be stated that the public-key
> will be populated, and that the private-key will exist but report
> 'permanently-hidden'.
>
> In action install-hidden-key, shouldn't both public-key and
> private-key be mandatory?  Also state that the private-key will report
> 'permanently-hidden'.
>
> In leaf private-key, the type binary part of the union doesn't have a
> description, and the description for the leaf itself says:
>
>        A binary that contains the value of the private key.
>
> which is not quite correct.
>
> I think we should state that the enum 'permanently-hidden' is only
> reported in operational state.
>
> The new descriptions say:
>
>             [...] present only in
>             <operational> and bound to the lifetime of the parent
>             'config true' node.
>
> Aren't all nodes bound to the lifetime of their parent?
> The action is invoked in a node that exists in <operational> and it
> creates a key.  What does the statement tell me?
>
>
> /martin
>
>
>
> >
> > This change will be in the next update, in about a week=E2=80=99s time,=
 if no
> > objections are raised.
> >
> > Kent // contributor
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 30, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs
> > > <balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Kent,
> > >
> > > I don=E2=80=99t see the your proposal below addressed in latest updat=
e
> > > (keystore-09). Was it missed?
> > >
> > > My recommendation is to modify the "generate/install-hidden-key"
> > > (renamed to just "generate/install-key") actions to have a flag
> > > indicating if
> > > the key should be "permanently hidden" (perhaps by using a TPM) or
> > > not, in
> > > which case configuration is created, same as if the client had used
> > > <edit-
> > > config>, but without needing to touch the key.
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and I
> > > think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case the
> > > requested action cannot be performed.
> > >
> > > Br,
> > > Balazs
> _______________________________________________
> netconf mailing list
> netconf@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 5:49 AM Marti=
n Bjorklund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Kent Watsen=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent%2Bietf@watsen.net" target=3D"_blank">kent+ietf@=
watsen.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Correct, as I didn=E2=80=99t think there was consensus yet.=C2=A0 Perh=
aps there is<br>
&gt; rough-consensus, and it may be that the only way to gauge that is to<b=
r>
&gt; try and see how much push back there is.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Okay, so how about this, based on this thread, there appears to be<br>
&gt; support to add a flag to control if a key should be =E2=80=9Cpermanent=
ly<br>
&gt; hidden=E2=80=9D or not, in which case configuration is created.<br>
<br>
I (still) object to this.=C2=A0 Actions shouldn&#39;t create config.=C2=A0 =
We<br>
already have generic protcol operations to do this.=C2=A0 We go from a<br>
document-oriented configuration model towards a command-oriented<br>
model.=C2=A0 Not good.=C2=A0 In RESTCONF, the generic methods support thing=
s<br>
like ETags, which I suspect you don&#39;t want to replicate in this<br>
action?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Will the action support all error-options of edit-confi=
g,<br>
like rollback-on-error?<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Strongly agree with Mar=
tin.</div><div>This issue of &quot;server-generated config&quot; has been a=
round from the start.</div><div>NMDA was supposed to solve it. (It didn&#39=
;t).</div><div>There seems to be a need for standardized mechanisms to tell=
 the</div><div>server how to magically instantiate data in &lt;intended&gt;=
 that does not appear in &lt;running&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>The solu=
tion should be consistent and not ad-hoc.</div><div>This is a similar probl=
em to config templates (which also lack any standard solution).</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Some comments on the new text:<br>
<br>
In action generate-hidden-key, it should be stated that the public-key<br>
will be populated, and that the private-key will exist but report<br>
&#39;permanently-hidden&#39;.<br>
<br>
In action install-hidden-key, shouldn&#39;t both public-key and<br>
private-key be mandatory?=C2=A0 Also state that the private-key will report=
<br>
&#39;permanently-hidden&#39;.<br>
<br>
In leaf private-key, the type binary part of the union doesn&#39;t have a<b=
r>
description, and the description for the leaf itself says:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A binary that contains the value of the private =
key.<br>
<br>
which is not quite correct.<br>
<br>
I think we should state that the enum &#39;permanently-hidden&#39; is only<=
br>
reported in operational state.<br>
<br>
The new descriptions say:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [...] present only in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;operational&gt; and bound to =
the lifetime of the parent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &#39;config true&#39; node.<br>
<br>
Aren&#39;t all nodes bound to the lifetime of their parent?<br>
The action is invoked in a node that exists in &lt;operational&gt; and it<b=
r>
creates a key.=C2=A0 What does the statement tell me?<br>
<br>
<br>
/martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This change will be in the next update, in about a week=E2=80=99s time=
, if no<br>
&gt; objections are raised.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Kent // contributor<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On Apr 30, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Kov=C3=A1cs<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">balazs.kovacs@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Kent,<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; I don=E2=80=99t see the your proposal below addressed in latest u=
pdate<br>
&gt; &gt; (keystore-09). Was it missed?<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; My recommendation is to modify the &quot;generate/install-hidden-=
key&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; (renamed to just &quot;generate/install-key&quot;) actions to hav=
e a flag<br>
&gt; &gt; indicating if<br>
&gt; &gt; the key should be &quot;permanently hidden&quot; (perhaps by usin=
g a TPM) or<br>
&gt; &gt; not, in<br>
&gt; &gt; which case configuration is created, same as if the client had us=
ed<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;edit-<br>
&gt; &gt; config&gt;, but without needing to touch the key.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I agree that having a flag to control the behavior is useful and =
I<br>
&gt; &gt; think there should be explicit text how the action fails in case =
the<br>
&gt; &gt; requested action cannot be performed.<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; Br,<br>
&gt; &gt; Balazs<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
netconf mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netconf@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netconf@ietf.org</a><=
br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate the goal of this document to specify another telemetry streaming
than gRPC. As the I-D has been reviewed by YANG-doctors, I did not look in the
YANG module.

Comments
--------

C1) section 1.3, should the published check authorization before accepting an
subscription? There is some text in section 3.1 is about authorization but I
would prefer to have this authorization stated as early as possible

C2) end of section 1.3, "transport drafts" shouldn't rather be "transport
specifications" ?

C3) end of section 1.3, upon termination decided by the publisher, is there a
need for any explanation message sent to the subscriber?

C4) is there any reason why the YANG module validation but the datatracker
fails? Outdated/invalid PYANG ?

C5) section 2.2 "all event records on an event stream are to be sent", should
there be a mention of publisher being out of ressource ?

C6) section 2.4.1 "insufficient CPU or bandwidth available" but there may be
other reasons (e.g. memory), what about using "insufficient CPU, bandwidth
unavailable or other lack of ressource"

C7) for my curiosity, in section 2.4.2.1, how deep could realistically be a
replay buffer? Minutes?

C8) the term 'transport' is used quite often in the document but it seems to
refer to NETCONF and not so much to my understanding of 'transport' in an IETF
document (which is TCP, UDP, SCTP, ...). Is it obvious to the readers? If so,
then I do not mind. Else, it may be useful to clarify in section 1.2

Nits
----

N1) is there any reason why not all Cisco authors are not grouped together?
(even if another one has changed affiliation)

N2) abstract s/information/data/ also applicable in other sections IMHO

N3) section 1.3, expand RPC even if obvious

N4) section 2.3, expand QoS even if obvious



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From nobody Tue Apr 30 12:49:47 2019
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Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-24: Discuss

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sections 2.4.2.1 and 2.5.6 seems to describe a mechanism (replay) to access
historical data that was potentially collected prior to a given subscriber
having access to it.  This appears to be an explicitly designed feature.  No
push back on that.  However, I believe that explicitly stating this arrangement
is warranted.  Perhaps something on the order of the following could be added
to the Security Considerations -- “The replay mechanisms described in Sections
2.4.2.1 and 2.5.6 provides access to historical event records.  By design, the
access control model that protects these records could enable subscribers to
view data to which they were not authorized at the time of collection.”


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Section 2.5.1.  Per Figure 8, if a modify operation fails re-evaluation
(the “no (2)” branch) wouldn’t it go directly to “invalid” (instead of through
“unsupportable->invalid”)?

(2) Section 2.5.2, what are “transport specific call-home operations”?

(3) Section 2.5.6.  Typos

s/timegap/time gap/
s/successfully/successfully/



From nobody Tue Apr 30 13:01:44 2019
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Subject: [netconf] Roman Danyliw's No Objection on draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-23: (with COMMENT)
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Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-23: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Per Section 3.7:
-- Is the re-synchronization behavior/value of patch-id different with dynamic
vs. configured subscriptions, especially if the publisher crashed or lost the
connection?

-- I’d recommend being explicit about the value by which patch-id gets
incremented (1?) so that there won’t be ambiguity on the lost/out-of-sequence
detection.



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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 17:10:16 -0400
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To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "ops-dir@ietf.org" <ops-dir@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.all@ietf.org>,  "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netconf] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-23
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[ - some lists ]

Thank you Carlos for the OpsDir review, and to the authors for addressing
the comments - I think that this has noticeably improved the document.

W

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:02 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi, Eric,
>
> Thanks for the quick response, and for considering these comments!
>
> A top-post response to acknowledge that your approach on both issues belo=
w
> seems great to me. Thank you!
>
> =E2=80=94
> Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com
>
> *=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma=
ke myself
> sound more photosynthesis."*
>
> On Apr 11, 2019, at 4:35 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> *From:* Carlos Pignataro, April 10, 2019 11:11 AM
>
>
> Hi, Eric,
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> Thanks for the review.  Some thoughts in-line=E2=80=A6
>
>
> Thanks for the follow-up.
>
>
> From: Carlos Pignataro, April 5, 2019 10:58 PM
>
> Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro
> Review result: Has Nits
>
> Hi,
>
> I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's
> ongoing
> effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
> comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspect=
s
> of
> the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be
> included in
> AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs should
> treat these comments just like any other last call comments.
>
> Summary: Almost Ready
>
> This is a comprehensive very well written document.
>
>
> From an operational point of view, as per the ops-dir review, I have no
>
> concerns or comments. Might be nice to collect some of the operational
> points
> in an Operations Consideration section, particularly given the document
> structure of Section 5.x, "ZZZ Considerations".
>
>
> In "implementation considerations" there are a couple which are really
> operational considerations.  For example the first and third bullets migh=
t
> qualify as operational.  The hard part is that the operational
> considerations to expose will vary by the subset of feature which are
> selected.  So I can imagine that much text could be written on best
> operational practices.  I am hoping that such documents could follow this
> one based on specific deployment contexts.
>
>
> Sorry I was not explicit. While many of these considerations have
> operational implications, I meant things like Appendix A of RFC 5706, mor=
e
> deployment than implementation.
>
>
> <eric> Hi Carlos,
> Per our call, I refined the section definition to =E2=80=9CImplementation=
 and
> Deployment Considerations=E2=80=9D.   I do agree that a number of the ele=
ments from
> RFC-5706 Appendix A are covered elsewhere across specific sections of the
> document.
>
>
> I do have one important question for consideration, which is: what is
> *really*
> the relationship of this (+ draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notification=
s
> potentially) with RFC 5277? A Normative reference, this doc has no metada=
ta
> regarding Updating, Obsoleting, etc. Yet lots of it is indeed a superset
> of it.
>
>
> We went around and around in the WG on this for a bit.  The initial
> decision was that we were going to obsolete RFC-5277. However the problem
> was that RFC-5277 Section 4 has a <notification> element defined which we
> are not replacing yet. This <notification> is used in several important
> places.  Examples include RFC-8040 section 6.4 and RFC-7950 Section 7.16.=
2.
>
>
> Does this describe an Update of specific sections then? Or would want to
> bring in the notification and do a full bis?
>
> <eric> The WG talked about this several times.  (In fact the adopted draf=
t
> was originally draft-ietf-netconf-rfc5277bis.)    But where we ended up w=
as
> that we were not ready to assert obsolescence until we had the new
> <notification> element nailed down.   So progressing the current set of
> drafts in IESG review gave us a good step in that direction.  And when we
> have structured this document so that when we do complete
> draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages, things should integrate cleanly=
.
> The hard question will be how to handle the meta-references properly.  I
> believe this is best attempted when an full set of documents which is abl=
e
> to obsolete RFC-5277 is available.
>
>
> So we didn't want to recommend an obsolete without a replacement of that
> <notification>.  The good news is that we are working on a replacement fo=
r
> this notification.  See: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages     But
> this still has a while to go before it is ready.  As a result we are left
> with Section 1.4 of draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications which
> describes the relationship with RFC-5277.
>
>
> This is still somewhat confusing. Section 1.4 says:
>
>    This document is intended to provide a superset of the subscription
>    capabilities initially defined within [RFC5277].
>
> But if it is really a superset, is it obsoleting it?
>
>
> <eric> The subscription capabilities are a superset.  I.e., the control
> plane can do everything in RFC-5277.  However the <notification> element
> work was deferred.
>
> S1.4 further goes:
>
>    Especially when
>    extending an existing [RFC5277] implementation, it is important to
>    understand what has been reused and what has been replaced.
>
> Similarly, reuse+replace means obsolete? Or update? :-)
>
> <eric> For the reasons above, not obsolete.  Perhaps =E2=80=98update=E2=
=80=99 might
> apply.  But honestly I don=E2=80=99t know the meta-reference convention w=
hen two
> documents (draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications &
> draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications) improve upon the majority
> of what is in another document (RFC-5277).  For that reason, doing nothin=
g
> in meta-referencing until a full functional replacement was available
> seemed like the best path.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
>
> I recommend the authors+ADs consider whether there is any more formal
> relationship with RFC 5277 that would require meta-tagging the RFC.
>
>
> I think that this is fully appropriate as we finish
> draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages
>
>
> I do not think you need to wait for
> draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages (and delay
> draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications) in order to have an
> appropriate meta-reference.
> Perhaps draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages will update something
> (draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications?)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carlos.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
> Eric
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Carlos Pignataro.
>
>
>
>
>

--=20
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in
the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of
pants.
   ---maf

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:verdana,=
sans-serif">[ - some lists ]=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thank you Carlos for the OpsDir re=
view, and to the authors for addressing the comments - I think that this ha=
s noticeably improved the document.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:verdana,sans-serif">W</div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:=
02 AM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com"=
>cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
Hi, Eric,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the quick response, and for considering these comments!</di=
v>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A top-post response to acknowledge that your approach on both issues b=
elow seems great to me. Thank you!</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
=E2=80=94<br>
Carlos Pignataro,=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:carlos@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
">carlos@cisco.com</a><br>
<br>
<i>=E2=80=9CSometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to ma=
ke myself sound more photosynthesis.&quot;</i></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Apr 11, 2019, at 4:35 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:e=
voit@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_8389001154999548229Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:star=
t;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;t=
ext-decoration:none" class=3D"gmail-m_8389001154999548229WordSection1">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Hi Carlos,<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;bor=
der-left-color:blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<b>From:</b><span class=3D"gmail-m_8389001154999548229Apple-converted-space=
">=C2=A0</span>Carlos Pignataro, April 10, 2019 11:11 AM<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Hi, Eric,<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
On Apr 9, 2019, at 5:03 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:evoit@c=
isco.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank=
">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif">Hi Carlos,<=
br>
<br>
Thanks for the review.=C2=A0 Some thoughts in-line=E2=80=A6<br style=3D"fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Thanks for the follow-up.<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif">From: Carlo=
s Pignataro, April 5, 2019 10:58 PM<br>
<br>
Reviewer: Carlos Pignataro<br>
Review result: Has Nits<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate&#39;s =
ongoing<br>
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.=C2=A0 Thes=
e<br>
comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects =
of<br>
the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be includ=
ed in<br>
AD reviews during the IESG review.=C2=A0 Document editors and WG chairs sho=
uld<br>
treat these comments just like any other last call comments.<br>
<br>
Summary: Almost Ready<br>
<br>
This is a comprehensive very well written document.<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif">From an ope=
rational point of view, as per the ops-dir review, I have no<u></u><u></u><=
/span></div>
</blockquote>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif">concerns or=
 comments. Might be nice to collect some of the operational points<br>
in an Operations Consideration section, particularly given the document<br>
structure of Section 5.x, &quot;ZZZ Considerations&quot;.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></div>
</blockquote>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif"><br>
In &quot;implementation considerations&quot; there are a couple which are r=
eally operational considerations.=C2=A0 For example the first and third bul=
lets might qualify as operational.=C2=A0 The hard part is that the operatio=
nal considerations to expose will vary by the subset
 of feature which are selected.=C2=A0 So I can imagine that much text could=
 be written on best operational practices.=C2=A0 I am hoping that such docu=
ments could follow this one based on specific deployment contexts.</span><u=
></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Sorry I was not explicit. While many of these considerations have operation=
al implications, I meant things like Appendix A of RFC 5706, more deploymen=
t than implementation.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0.5in 0.0001pt 0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">
&lt;eric&gt; Hi Carlos,<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0.5in 0.0001pt 0in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">
Per our call, I refined the section definition to =E2=80=9CImplementation a=
nd Deployment Considerations=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I do agree that a number=
 of the elements from RFC-5706 Appendix A are covered elsewhere across spec=
ific sections of the document.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif"><br>
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif">I do have o=
ne important question for consideration, which is: what is *really*<br>
the relationship of this (+ draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications<=
br>
potentially) with RFC 5277? A Normative reference, this doc has no metadata=
<br>
regarding Updating, Obsoleting, etc. Yet lots of it is indeed a superset of=
 it.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif"><br>
We went around and around in the WG on this for a bit.=C2=A0 The initial de=
cision was that we were going to obsolete RFC-5277. However the problem was=
 that RFC-5277 Section 4 has a &lt;notification&gt; element defined which w=
e are not replacing yet. This &lt;notification&gt;
 is used in several important places.=C2=A0 Examples include RFC-8040 secti=
on 6.4 and RFC-7950 Section 7.16.2.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Does this describe an Update of specific sections then? Or would want to br=
ing in the notification and do a full bis?<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
&lt;eric&gt; The WG talked about this several times.=C2=A0 (In fact the ado=
pted draft was originally draft-ietf-netconf-rfc5277bis.) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0But where we ended up was that we were not ready to assert obsolescence =
until we had the new &lt;notification&gt; element nailed down.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
So
 progressing the current set of drafts in IESG review gave us a good step i=
n that direction.=C2=A0 And when we have structured this document so that w=
hen we do complete draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages, things should =
integrate cleanly.=C2=A0 The hard question
 will be how to handle the meta-references properly.=C2=A0 I believe this i=
s best attempted when an full set of documents which is able to obsolete RF=
C-5277 is available.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif"><br>
So we didn&#39;t want to recommend an obsolete without a replacement of tha=
t &lt;notification&gt;.=C2=A0 The good news is that we are working on a rep=
lacement for this notification.=C2=A0 See: draft-ietf-netconf-notification-=
messages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0But this still has a while to go before
 it is ready.=C2=A0 As a result we are left with Section 1.4 of draft-ietf-=
netconf-subscribed-notifications which describes the relationship with RFC-=
5277.</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
This is still somewhat confusing. Section 1.4 says:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document is intended to provide a superset of the subscri=
ption<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0capabilities initially defined within [RFC5277]. =C2=A0<u></u>=
<u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<br>
But if it is really a superset, is it obsoleting it?<span class=3D"gmail-m_=
8389001154999548229Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
&lt;eric&gt; The subscription capabilities are a superset.=C2=A0 I.e., the =
control plane can do everything in RFC-5277.=C2=A0 However the &lt;notifica=
tion&gt; element work was deferred.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
S1.4 further goes:<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Especially when<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0extending an existing [RFC5277] implementation, it is importan=
t to<u></u><u></u></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0understand what has been reused and what has been replaced.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<br>
Similarly, reuse+replace means obsolete? Or update? :-)<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
&lt;eric&gt; For the reasons above, not obsolete.=C2=A0 Perhaps =E2=80=98up=
date=E2=80=99 might apply.=C2=A0 But honestly I don=E2=80=99t know the meta=
-reference convention when two documents (draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-not=
ifications &amp; draft-ietf-netconf-netconf-event-notifications) improve up=
on
 the majority of what is in another document (RFC-5277).=C2=A0 For that rea=
son, doing nothing in meta-referencing until a full functional replacement =
was available seemed like the best path.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Thanks,<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Eric<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 5.25pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Cal=
ibri,sans-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif"><br>
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif">I recommend=
 the authors+ADs consider whether there is any more formal<br>
relationship with RFC 5277 that would require meta-tagging the RFC.<u></u><=
u></u></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif"><br>
I think that this is fully appropriate as we finish draft-ietf-netconf-noti=
fication-messages</span><u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
I do not think you need to wait for draft-ietf-netconf-notification-message=
s=C2=A0(and delay draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications) in order to =
have an appropriate meta-reference. Perhaps=C2=A0draft-ietf-netconf-notific=
ation-messages will update something (draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notific=
ations?)<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Thanks,<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Carlos.<u></u><u></u></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif"><br>
Thanks!<br>
Eric<br>
<br style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span><u></u><u></u></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Menlo-Regular,serif">Thanks,<br>
<br>
Carlos Pignataro.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature">I don&#39;t think the execution is relevant when=
 it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.<br>This is like putting ra=
bid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen tho=
se particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf<=
/div>

--00000000000007251d0587c5d65e--


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Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-24: Discuss

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for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for this document; I just have a few minor "housekeeping" points
that should get resolved before publication.  (Please also note the
substantive comments in the COMMENT section as well, particularly those
relating to the transport requirements and security considerations.)

I'm not sure that we state clearly enough what is required to have a
specification for a transport for notifications.  Specifically (see
COMMENT), in the module we seem to say that the specification must
indicate what the default encoding is to be used if not otherwise
specified, but that's not enumerated as a requirement on such a
specification anywhere I see.  I also think that we could probably
require (as opposed to "highly recommend" in the current security
considerations) that the transport provide message confidentiality and
integrity protection.

I'm also unsure that I properly understand the use of the "reset" RPC --
if it has no effect when transit connectivity already exists, then what
entity is going to call "reset" in the case of publisher timeout when
trying to reach a receiver?  Surely not the publisher itself, since
that would just be publisher-internal functionality with no need for an
external-facing RPC.

I'm also a little unclear on the mechanics of the list of subscriptions
described in Section 3.3.  Does it provide a way for a low-privilege
client (that can only access one or a handful of the subscriptions) to
enumerate all subscriptions that exist, including subscriptions used by
high-privilege clients?  If so, we may want to think about some security
considerations text to that effect; if not, we may want to say that the
access-control will limit which leafs are visible to some clients.

Finally, we have a few instances of "leaf filter-failure-hint" that's of
type "string", providing
             "Information describing where and/or why a provided filter
              was unsupportable for a subscription.";
I don't understand why it's a string as opposed to some form of
machine-readable data.  Is it supposed to be human-readable?  Does that
bring in any internationalization considerations?


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 1.3

   Also note that transport specific transport drafts based on this
   specification MUST detail the life cycle of dynamic subscriptions, as
   well as the lifecycle of configured subscriptions (if supported).

I'm not sure I understand what additional specification is needed for
the lifecycle of configured subscriptions -- doesn't the previous
text tightly tie their lifecycle to the presence of configuration in the
configuration datastore?
nit: please be consistent about "life cycle" vs. "lifecycle" throughout.

Section 2.1

   An event stream is a named entity on a publisher which exposes a
   continuously updating set of YANG encoded event records.  [...]

nit: I don't think "YANG encoded" is well-defined (here and below), in
that YANG structures generate data models but can be encoded into
various formats (like XML and JSON).

Section 2.3

   If the publisher supports the "dscp" feature, then a subscription
   with a "dscp" leaf MUST result in a corresponding [RFC2474] DSCP
   marking being placed within the IP header of any resulting
   notification messages and subscription state change notifications.
   Where TCP is used, a publisher which supports the "dscp" feature
   SHOULD ensure that a subscription's notification messages are
   returned within a single TCP transport session where all traffic
   shares the subscription's "dscp" leaf value.  Where this cannot be
   guaranteed, any "establish subscription" RPC request SHOULD be
   rejected with a "dscp-unavailable" error

I can't decide whether we need to be more explicit in the second and/or
third sentences that this remains contingent on the subscription in
question having a "dscp" leaf.
nit: end sentence with a full stop

I share the TSV-ART reviewer's confusion about how the weighting
(as well as DSCP) functionality is intended to work.

Section 2.4.2.1

   Replay provides the ability to establish a subscription which is also
   capable of passing recently generated event records.  In other words,

nit/editorial: this language could probably be more clear about
"recently generated" meaning "in the past", that is, records for events
that have already happened when the subscription is established.

Section 2.4.3

   any number of times.  Dynamic subscriptions can only be modified via
   this RPC using a transport session connecting to the subscriber.  If

nit(?): is this more readable as "connecting to" or "connecting from"
the subscriber?  (The same wording shows up throughout the document, but
I'll try to just comment once.)

Section 2.4.5

Is there any distinction between "killing a subscription" and
"administratively deleting a subscription"?  It's unclear to me that we
need the extra connotations of the word "kill", here.

Section 2.4.6

   As a result of this mixture, how subscription errors are encoded

nit: "mixture" doesn't seem like the right word to me; "variety" or
"varied population" are the first alternatives that come to mind, though
they are not perfect either.

Is there some sort of "access denied" error that could result from
kill-subscription RPCs?  (The table/artwork only lists
"no-such-subscription".)

Section 2.5

It's interesting to see a slight dichotomy between dynamic and
configured subscriptions, in that (IIUC) for dynamic subscriptions, a
modification event un-suspends a subscription immediately, but for
configured subscriptions the publisher seems to have some latitude to
retain the subscription in the suspended state for some time before
un-suspending it and sending the "subscription-modified" state change
message.

                 In this case, a separate dynamic subscription can be
   established to retransmit the missing event records.

Do you want to put in a pointer to replay-start-time here?

Section 2.5.1

         Event records are only sent to active receivers.  Receivers of
   a configured subscription remain active if both transport
   connectivity can be verified to the receiver, and event records are
   not being dropped due to a publisher buffer overflow.  [...]

nit: "buffer overflow" is a technical term in security circles
indicating a potentially exploitable security flaw; would "publisher
buffer capacity being reached" be an acceptable substitute (here and
below)?

Section 2.7.7

   This notification indicates that all of the event records prior to
   the current time have been passed to a receiver.  It is sent before
   any notification message containing an event record with a timestamp
   later than (1) the "stop-time" or (2) the subscription's start time.

nit(?): this text seems to imply that a notification message with a
timestamp later than the "stop-time" might actually be sent, which IIUC
is not the case.

Section 2.9

nit: the name "supports-vrf" for the feature doesn't really parallel the
other feature names, that don't include a word like "support" and rather
just describe the actual feature.

Section 3.1

Is there any risk of collision in event stream names from
vendor-specific streams?  (We don't seem to create an IANA registry
for them, for example.)

Section 4

   identity subscription-suspended-reason {
      description
       "Problem condition communicated to a receiver as part of a
       'subscription-terminated' notification.";
   }

   identity subscription-terminated-reason {
      description
       "Problem condition communicated to a receiver as part of a
       'subscription-terminated' notification.";
   }

Are these descriptions supposed to be the same?

   identity configurable-encoding {
     description
       "If a transport identity derives from this identity, it means
        that it supports configurable encodings.  An example of a [...]

Is it intended that such future transports (or future encodings?) will
derive from both this and the normal base identity (i.e., "transport")?
I guess I'm asking why this identity does not derive from the
corresponding base, but that's just a style question and not really a
protocol matter, making this question a side note.

     leaf weighting {
       if-feature "qos";
       type uint8 {
          range "0 .. 255";
       }
       description
         "Relative weighting for a subscription. Allows an underlying
          transport layer perform informed load balance allocations
          between various subscriptions";
       reference
         "RFC-7540, section 5.3.2";

Do we want to chase the reference for readers and say that larger
weights get more resources?

     leaf encoding {
       when 'not(../transport) or derived-from(../transport,
       "sn:configurable-encoding")';
       type encoding;
       description
         "The type of encoding for notification messages.   For a
         dynamic subscription, if not included as part of an establish-
         subscription RPC, the encoding will be populated with the
         encoding used by that RPC.  For a configured subscription, if
         not explicitly configured the encoding with be the default
         encoding for an underlying transport.";

Where is the default encoding for an underlying transport specified?
Section 5.3 does not seem to say that a transport specification must
provide this information, nor does Section 1.3 (which mentions that
transport specifications must detail the lifecycle of dynamic
subscriptions), nor does Section 2.5.7 (that discusses the need for a
separate model augmenting /subscriptions/subscription/receivers/receiver
to provide transport details).

       choice notification-message-origin {
         if-feature "configured";
         description
           "Identifies the egress interface on the publisher from which
            notification messages are to be sent.";

nit: given the address-originated case, perhaps "the egress interface"
is not quite correct anymore.

               enum connecting {
                 value 3;
                 if-feature "configured";
                 description
                   "A subscription has been configured, but a
                   'subscription-started' subscription state change
                   notification needs to be successfully received before
                   notification messages are sent.

nit: successful receipt happens on the receiver but sending happens on
the publisher, so there's a bit of a mismatch in the sentence subject
here.  Perhaps we could talk about "successfully sent" state-changes to
resolve things.

             config false;
             mandatory true;
             description
               "Specifies the state of a subscription from the
               perspective of a particular receiver.  With this info it
               is possible to determine whether a subscriber is
               currently generating notification messages intended for
               that receiver.";

nit: is it the subscriber that is generating messages or the publisher?

Section 5.3

   A secure transport is highly recommended and the publisher MUST
   ensure that the receiver has sufficient authorization to perform the
   function they are requesting against the specific subset of content
   involved.

"secure transport" usually means that it provides message
confidentiality, integrity protection, and source authenticity (akin to
the mutual authentication).  This is qualitatively different from
implementing authorization checks, and it's surprising to see them
squashed into the same sentence.

Do we want to say anything about discovery for support of new
transports, and what workflow would be used to negotiate the use of a
new transport?

Section 5.4

I can think of a couple other considerations to mention here:

- Using DNS names for receiver "name" lookup can cause situations where
  the name resolves differently on the publisher and subscriber, so the
  recipient would be different than expected.

- Using the publisher's boot time for deduplication protection on
  replayed messages introduces a dependency on accurate time.  We don't
  have a great secure time story at present, so this is more of a
  "beware of risk" situation than something we can mitigate, but it does
  seem that an attacker that could (e.g.) spoof the NTP traffic to the
  publisher on boot could cause it to send duplicate notifications to
  recipients that requested historical data.

Some other comments on what's already there (which is pretty good;
thanks for it!) follow.

   Container: "/filters"

   o  "stream-subtree-filter": updating a filter could increase the
      computational complexity of all referencing subscriptions.

   o  "stream-xpath-filter": updating a filter could increase the
      computational complexity of all referencing subscriptions.

Do we want to say anything about modifying either of these causing the
set of notifications delivered to recipients to shrink (or become
unmanageably large)?  I guess it may not be necessary, since the
recipient gets a notification about the modification that includes the
details of the filter.

   Container: "/subscriptions"

   o  "excluded-event-records": leaf can provide information about
      filtered event records.  A network operator should have
      permissions to know about such filtering.

To be clear, this is event records filtered either via explicit filter
or via access control restrictions.  Specifically, it can allow a
receiver to learn that there exists access controls that deny it access
to some data, in the case when they did not apply any filtering rules
explicitly.  This potential for information leakage (of the existence of
ACLs) should be mentioned explicitly.

Appendix A

This example transport module does not specify the life cycle of dynamic
subscriptions per Section 1.3, and a couple other things required from a
transport module specification.  Perhaps we are okay claiming that since
this is just an example YANG model and not a full transport example, the
omission is okay, but it may be worth mentioning the omission for
clarity.



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To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" <evyncke@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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From: Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
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Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 00:13:15 +0000
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Subject: [netconf] draft 104 minutes posted
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The draft minutes (actually an audio transcription) from the 104 meeting =
have been posted here:
    =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/minutes-104-netconf-00.=
txt =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/minutes-104-netconf-00=
.txt>


The chair actions coming out of the meeting include:

1)  Re-issue adoption call for the tcp-client-server draft

      - The chairs feel that this is important because the original =
adoption poll
         was on the -00 version, which received several comments that =
have
         been addressed in the currently posted -02 version.

     - The chairs feel that the HTTP draft is not yet ready for =
adoption; that another
       adoption poll will be required after all issues have been =
addressed.

2) Issue an adoption call on the Subscription to Multiple Stream =
Originators draft

     - Recall that we intend to more forward with this draft and let the =
adopted=20
       UPD Pub Sub draft expire.


Kent and Mahesh



--Apple-Mail=_866A6D24-7C38-4324-AE70-951332853410
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The draft minutes =
(actually an audio transcription) from the 104 meeting have been posted =
here:</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/minutes-104-net=
conf-00.txt" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/minutes-104-=
netconf-00.txt</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The chair actions coming =
out of the meeting include:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">1) &nbsp;Re-issue adoption call for the tcp-client-server =
draft</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; - The chairs feel that this is important because the =
original adoption poll</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;was on the -00 version, which received several comments that =
have</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;been =
addressed in the currently posted -02 version.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- The chairs feel =
that the HTTP draft is not yet ready for adoption; that =
another</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;adoption poll =
will be required after all issues have been addressed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2) Issue an adoption =
call on the&nbsp;Subscription to Multiple Stream Originators =
draft</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;- Recall that we intend to more forward with this draft and =
let the adopted&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;UPD Pub Sub draft expire.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kent=
 and Mahesh</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_866A6D24-7C38-4324-AE70-951332853410--


From nobody Tue Apr 30 21:56:41 2019
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Subject: [netconf] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8572_on_Secure_Zero_Touch_Provisioning_?= =?utf-8?b?KFNaVFAp?=
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 8572

        Title:      Secure Zero Touch Provisioning (SZTP) 
        Author:     K. Watsen,
                    I. Farrer,
                    M. Abrahamsson
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       April 2019
        Mailbox:    kent+ietf@watsen.net, 
                    ian.farrer@telekom.de, 
                    mikael.abrahamsson@t-systems.se
        Pages:      87
        Characters: 196186
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-netconf-zerotouch-29.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8572

        DOI:        10.17487/RFC8572

This document presents a technique to securely provision a networking
device when it is booting in a factory-default state.  Variations in
the solution enable it to be used on both public and private
networks.  The provisioning steps are able to update the boot image,
commit an initial configuration, and execute arbitrary scripts to
address auxiliary needs.  The updated device is subsequently able to
establish secure connections with other systems.  For instance, a
device may establish NETCONF (RFC 6241) and/or RESTCONF (RFC 8040)
connections with deployment-specific network management systems.

This document is a product of the Network Configuration Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Official
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the 
standardization state and status of this protocol.  Distribution of this 
memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists.
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unlimited distribution.


The RFC Editor Team
Association Management Solutions, LLC



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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications@ietf.org>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>, "netconf@ietf.org" <netconf@ietf.org>
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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